Welcome and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon News Podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is October 17, 2026. I'm here with Meggan from generally unquotable. Hey, Meggan.

Guest [00:00:18] Hey.

Meggan Hayes [00:00:19] Happy weekend, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] And why am I wearing my. Tell us. Why am I wearing my BYU hat?

Meggan Hayes [00:00:24] Meggan, today is BYU game day, and it has been a huge to do. They're playing Notre Dame.

John Dehlin [00:00:30] So can you be an ex Mormon and still like byu? Is that allowed or is that forbidden? I need to know the rule. What are the rules?

Meggan Hayes [00:00:39] I think it's allowed.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] Who's in charge?

Meggan Hayes [00:00:43] I think Jacob Hansen.

John Dehlin [00:00:47] No. BYU is ranked top 10 in the country, and they're playing Notre Dame, who's ranked top 10 in the country? So I. I met my wife Margi at byu, and I'm a proud BYU graduate. So I'm going to just say it, go Cougars. And while we're at it, go Utes and go Aggies.

Meggan Hayes [00:01:08] That's okay. And you live in Utah, so, like, who are you going to root for?

John Dehlin [00:01:12] All the. All the Utah teams. I even. I even root for Weber State. So, anyway, Meggan, how's it been going? What's new? You have a new microphone.

Meggan Hayes [00:01:21] I do have a new microphone. It's fantastic. This guy I know, he wanted me to have better sound, so he sent it over.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] Have your viewers and listeners this week. I commented on how good your sound is.

Meggan Hayes [00:01:35] Yeah, I've literally gotten emails that say, I just needed to tell you how much that microphone has made a difference.

John Dehlin [00:01:42] I bought Alyssa Grenfell her first equipment. I'm proud. I'm proud to help people who become way more successful than me kind of get their start. So, anyway, it's fun.

Guest [00:01:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] Well deserved. Well deserved, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:01:59] I love it. It was so much fun to set up. It was like Christmas.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] All right, well, we've got a lot thanks for. By the way, thanks for meeting on a Saturday. We don't normally meet on a Saturday, but you were willing, so thank you.

Meggan Hayes [00:02:13] Yeah, no problem. My kids have fall break this week, so we were busy during the week, and tomorrow we'll be at the Ren Faire, but today was open.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] Can I just tell you, I grew up in Houston, as everyone knows, and the Texas. The Houston. The Texas Renaissance Festival. I went in, like, middle school in the late 70s, early 80s. That's how old school I am. Is that the same thing? Is the Rent Bear. The Renaissance Festival? Is that the same thing or not?

Meggan Hayes [00:02:39] I think so.

Guest [00:02:39] They.

Meggan Hayes [00:02:40] It's one of the biggest ones in the country now.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] Yeah, I grew up like I grew up eating turkey legs and trying to climb the Jacob's Ladder. That's my childhood.

Meggan Hayes [00:02:50] So that we'll be there tomorrow and I will likely unsuccessfully try to shoot a bow and arrow.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] So I want, I want the video. I want to see the video of it.

Meggan Hayes [00:03:00] It'll be humorous, I'm sure.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] Well, we've got lots of fun stories for today and yeah, tell us what we've got in store. Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:03:11] So we're going to talk about a job posting that the church has out that has some very interesting wording. Then we're going to go to some body cam footage that is. Has come out recently from a case that's from a couple years ago about Ryan Christopher Hall. Then we'll discuss an OB GYN in Idaho who has decided to follow the Brethren and we'll see why. We'll talk a little bit about tithing because an article came out this week and it was mentioned three times in General Conference, so it's again a hot topic. We will talk about Julie de Azevedo who recently appeared on Soft White Underbelly and did a fantastic job. And, and we'll do a BYU med school update there at the end.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] I love it. And we're going to talk a little bit of BYU football and more importantly, what does the Book of Mormon have to do with college game day and espn? But before we do that, I just want to let everyone know next Sunday. So a week from tomorrow, we are honoring Radio Free Mormon in Salt Lake City. 10 years of radio Free Mormon. We're going to have a roast. We're going to have Cafe Rio if there's time. There'll be karaoke. There's about 100 people who have signed up for it. I'm going to be there. You're going to be there, right, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:04:30] I am, yeah. God willing.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] Maybe you should live stream. Should we do an episode from like a pre or a post? No, I'm just kidding.

Meggan Hayes [00:04:39] That sounds like a lot of work. I can show up, John.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] All right. Yeah, that's a lot of work because you're showing up from Houston. But anyway, ready for your Mormon's going to be there. Rebecca Biblioteca, Landon from Mormon Ish. John Lundwall, Summer Rain, Julie Dazevedo, you, Cedar Tanner, Randy Bell, me. And I think Margi. Margi's going to be there. So be there or be Square. It is $75. That's because the venue itself is going to cost like 6,500, $7,000 we, we decided to add projector and, and tablecloths and it's an arm and a leg. So that money is going to be well spent. It's also going to go to your dinner Cafe Rio. And then if there's any money left over, it goes to RFM and Wendy.

John Dehlin [00:05:28] So please sign up. You can go to MormonStories.org RFM Celebration or you can scan this Q code and let's just, let's all have some fun and let's show RFM how much he means to us. And anyway, enough of that. So we did, we did talk about the game today at 5:30, Utah time. BYU is playing Notre Dame. Notre Dame and BYU are both ranked in the top 10. And that wouldn't maybe be enough for us to make an announcement, but there's more. So Meggan, take the story away.

BYU vs Notre Dame Game Reactions

Meggan Hayes [00:06:07] Well, so this is what I was seeing leading up to that. You can have that video playing. It doesn't have any sound. It's just a video of how many people have been camping out. These are the little clips I've seen leading up to this game. So one says $26,417 is the highest listed ticket price for Notre Dame versus BYU when, which is just astounding. And then there's a video of all the students camping out so that they can be part of the game day festivities. And I did look, I did look up to see if that's against the honor code because I went to BYUI and that would be against the honor code at byui, but apparently at BYU

John Dehlin [00:06:45] it's okay to what, to camp out?

Meggan Hayes [00:06:47] Yeah. Co ed camping is, is specifically mentioned in the BYU honor code.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] And are you, are you salty about that?

Meggan Hayes [00:06:54] I am a little bit, yeah. Not that it deterred me from co ed camping. I just wasn't supposed to be doing it.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] Oh, so you were a rule breaker back then?

Meggan Hayes [00:07:05] Occasionally. I mean, we still slept in separate tents and all of that, but we did go out, boys and girls in camp at the same campsite.

John Dehlin [00:07:14] I'm guessing why the, why the students have to camp out. And I'm guessing that the student section is just first come, first serve. And so they're camping out so they can get the best seats in the student section. Does that, Is that what's going on there, you think?

Meggan Hayes [00:07:26] I, I actually it was because there was the festivities that we're going to see on this video beforehand with the ESPN anchors and stuff. I think they were camping out to be part of that, but I'm not certain.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] Got it. Got It. Okay, well, yeah, some interesting things happened with espn. Should I. Do you want to set this clip up or should we just roll a clip?

Meggan Hayes [00:07:43] You know, I actually had to ask Donnie about the clip, so maybe I had to be like, okay, tell me who this Pat McAfee fellow is.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] And what would you. What'd you find out?

Meggan Hayes [00:07:53] Well, he said he is a cat, a sportscaster, and he goes to college football the day of the game and just tries to get people riled up, like, in a good way, excited for the game. And. But he does poke jabs at both teams, and I guess that's kind of his M.O.

John Dehlin [00:08:08] and I guess ESPN each week picks one game that they live broadcast from that they consider to be kind of the biggest game for that week. And there's been some, you know, today, Indiana, the Hoosiers played the Ohio State. You know, there's some big games going on, but they picked byu, so. So college game day is in Provo right now, right?

Meggan Hayes [00:08:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] Yeah. All right, well, let's go ahead and roll the clip and see what's going on, Utah.

Guest 1 [00:08:39] Which makes me pull out the Book of Mormon here, though. Go to. Let's go to the Book of Nephi here. Nephi 17:36 says, Behold, the Lord hath created the earth that it should be inhabited, and he hath created this children that they should possess it. I think the Big 12 is hot. The block is hot out here. And as Nephi said, 32, 4. Wherefore. Now, after I've spoken these words. Yeah. If ye cannot understand them, it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock. Wherefore ye are not brought into the light, must perish in the dark.

John Dehlin [00:09:28] In the dark. Holy freaking moly. So college game day reads the Book of Mormon. I want to hear your take on that, Meggan.

Guest 2 [00:09:38] I.

Meggan Hayes [00:09:38] After talking to Donnie, I was. I came to the conclusion that he just knows his audience. Right. He's going there educated about who he's talking to. And he knows that if he pulls out a Book of Mormon and he reads any verse, except for maybe second Nephi521, I think he probably avoided that one, that he would get that type of reaction from the crowd.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] I made a bet that the church gave money. You know how sometimes there's, like, paid endorsements? I would not be surprised if the church paid ESPN money to read the Book of Mormon on college game day just because that the church is so wealthy and college football is just all about money these days. It would not surprise me at all. What do you think? About the two verses that got read. The first one, that the Lord created his children to possess this land, meaning America. I wonder if that guy knows what he was reading there. He's basically saying the white Nephites were created to possess this land, that the dark skinned Lamanites ended up killing them and taking over. What? Like, is that the right, Is that the right verse?

Meggan Hayes [00:10:53] Oh, yeah.

Guest 1 [00:10:54] Oh yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:10:54] I just don't think he totally understands the context because out of context is a pretty innocuous verse.

Guest 3 [00:10:59] Right?

Meggan Hayes [00:11:00] Like you don't understand what's really going on. It's just like, oh, people are supposed to be on the earth. And he's trying to find something that will like be football themed in a way where the student section is like, yes, we're here to possess this field, you know.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] No, I don't mean to be all sour. Like it's fun. Like, go Cougars. I want BYU to win. I want BYU to beat Notre Dame. Sorry, Patrick Mason and John Turner, but it is, I'll just say, just sort of like fun. Reflection. Weird reflection. It is weird for me to see the Book of Mormon read with people of color in the room, so to speak, just because, you know, the Book of Mormon is objectively a white supremacist document. And you know, we had a recent episode on Mormon Stories, you know, where there's a couple in, in the UK that's suing a local Marriott franchise because they're putting Books of Mormon in their hotel rooms.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] And this woman has, has grandchildren who are people of color. And for her it's like having a KKK pamphlet in a hotel. The law would never allow that. And. And she's suing this Marriott hotel for having Books of Mormon because she doesn't want them near her grandchildren who are mixed race. So it's weird to see that document read in front of people of color. But I know that happens every Sunday at church and all over the world. So I'm probably being too sensitive. I'm probably being a killjoy. Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:12:29] I don't think so. I think both things can be true because that crowd is not acknowledging all of that context. Right. They're just there having fun. But if you do look at the crowd, you will notice it is quite homogeneous.

John Dehlin [00:12:40] It's quite white. Yeah. The other one is yes. Not. Neither do ye knock not. You are not brought into the light, therefore you will perish in the dark. That's a hot take, right?

Meggan Hayes [00:12:53] Well, and I think if you're applying it to football, I think they were trying to be like oh, you know, gonna push these people into the dark and we'll be in the light at the end, right? And then huge cheer from the crowd.

John Dehlin [00:13:04] Well, what's your take, Meggan? Who, who wins? Is it, is it the Cougars or, or the Fighting Irish?

Meggan Hayes [00:13:10] Because I haven't been, I used to watch every college football game that I could get on tv, you know, with our two channels we had, but I haven't been paying attention to what their defense and offense look like. If it was 17 year old me, I'd be sitting there with popcorn waiting for BYU to kick their butts.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] But now I, now you're a hater.

Meggan Hayes [00:13:33] I'm not, I'm not. I just love to watch football. I would totally watch the game.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] Okay. Okay. Yeah, I, I, I think Notre Dame's going to win, but I want BYU to win. This is the, always the part of the season where BYU gets you excited and then they break your heart. They're undefeated for a while and, and you think this may be their year. But I just, it, it's, I, I wonder if there's ever going to be a time where a BYU program could beat a top five, you know, Big Ten or SEC type school. So I'm not holding my breath, but go Cougars. I was, I was at byu and BYU beat Miami at Lavelle Edwards Stadium. And that was one of the happiest moments of my life.

Meggan Hayes [00:14:19] So anyway, the energy is there in the field. So if it's going to happen, it's going to happen today.

John Dehlin [00:14:25] I mean, in theory, because the LDS church is wealthier than Heavenly Father at this point and now money pays for college sports. The church should be able to buy one of the best teams in the country, right?

Meggan Hayes [00:14:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think the hard part, we get just people who want to attend that school. Right. Like you could get a really good athlete who's like, I'm not signing that honor code.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I want, I want, we have about 200, we have 300 people right now in the live stream. I want everyone to give their predictions. Byu, Notre Dame, I want scores, screenshot your scores. And whoever comes closest to making the right prediction, I will take out for tacos next time they're in Salt Lake City. All right, let's play one more. I think we have one more clip. Let's play it.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:15:22] You do not want to sleep on this guy. I went to school here as an undergraduate. I went to law school while I was playing about 100 yards from here. I have broken out all things to make sure that we're ready tonight. There's going to be big games in the future. We've had big games in the past, but this is the one that we're most focused on. So I have. So I have sued my lawyerly status, have sued the NCAA because I didn't get the red shirt year. I had sued for my fifth year. And as of Wednesday, I am now ready to suit up. I have eligibility, and I'm coming back to back up their botfire in case he has anything. Go haywire. I'm ready to play some football.

Video Clip 1 [00:16:11] I love it.

Video Clip 1 [00:16:13] I love it.

Video Clip 1 [00:16:14] You look good. My name is Jeff Sims. Jeff Sims.

Video Clip 1 [00:16:20] Nice.

Video Clip 1 [00:16:21] How old are you, Steve? I leave it to you. I'm. I'm older than you think. You look unbelievable. I will tell you this. I leave it to you, brother Pat, to talk about what you need to do, because I have eight hours before game. I got to get warmed up. I understand.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] That's so fun. Hey, Meggan, do you want to hear a secret? Yes, it is possible that the Young family are supporters of Mormon Stories.

Meggan Hayes [00:16:46] Podcast can neither confirm nor did I,

John Dehlin [00:16:49] but I love that it is within the realm of possibility that the Young family are fans of this very show. But I won't say more than that. Anyway, that's fun. Steve Young, he's a great guy. I love Barbara, his wife. I. I've gotten to know them a tiny bit over the past several years. In fact, recently we had Eli McCann, the author. Eli McCann on Mormon stories. And it was Barb Young who actually texted me and said, you need to have Eli McCann on. And I'm like, okay. Anyway, I'm a fan of Barb and Steve Young. They're clearly a fan of byu and maybe a little bit of a fan of the show. Anyway, enough of that.

Meggan Hayes [00:17:29] Well, we have a BYU. No, a 49ers helmet that Steve Young assigned and a jersey. Steve Young jersey that have his signature.

Guest [00:17:38] So.

Meggan Hayes [00:17:40] Yeah, well, Donnie grew. My husband, Donnie grew up in the San Francisco area, so he was always a 49ers fan. And then the mix between that and Mormonism. So, yeah, we've always been Steve Young fans.

Guest 3 [00:17:50] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] All right. Well, go Cougars. And we have lots of predictions on the game. Just play a couple here. So KENDALL C. Says BYU 34, Notre Dame 31. That's a bit of a hot take. Jabala says BYU by seven. Ethan Perry says 2417. BYU wins. Wow. The. The Cougar fans are out. Elizabeth Woodruff is saying Notre Dame 26, BYU 13. We've got a Notre Dame sloper says Notre Dame 31, BYU 17. All right, well, I'll do one more. NOLA V says Notre Dame 27, BYU 20. All right, well, it'll be fun as soon as this broadcast is over because it will be about three hours, maybe three and a half. I'll be watching the game anyway. I'm teasing. Okay, what's next on our story? Meggan?

Church Job Posting for Mission Problem Fixers

Meggan Hayes [00:18:48] All right, so we're going to talk about a recent job posting that came up. This, this particular wording and everything is from. Indeed. But it's a job posting for. From the missionary department of the church. You can see the church logo there at the top. And I need to make this a little bigger so I can.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Do you want me to read it?

Meggan Hayes [00:19:08] Yeah. Yes, please.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] Which part?

Meggan Hayes [00:19:11] Well, I was going to read the title and then just the big part.

John Dehlin [00:19:14] Title is Rep in Field Services, Missionary Department, Spanish and English preferred. Salt Lake City, Utah, United States Hybrid. I can keep. I can keep reading.

Meggan Hayes [00:19:29] Yes, keep reading. Just the job description.

John Dehlin [00:19:33] So the job description says the missionary department's infield operations team is seeking a bilingual Spanish English professional to support mission presidents and missionaries throughout assigned areas. The individual will serve as a key resource in addressing missionary health concerns, emergencies, conduct matters and other mission related needs, ensuring timely support and coordination. Working closely with mission presidents, area presidencies, church headquarters, departments, missionaries, families and local priesthood leaders. This role helps facilitate effective communication and solutions for a variety of missionary situations. Sounds very benign, Meggan. It sounds very. Just vanilla. And then it says this is an at will two year fixed term position initially with the potential for continuation based on business needs and performance. And this is a paid position. Is that right?

Meggan Hayes [00:20:44] Yes, yes. You know, I. While you're reading that for the first time, I noticed that it said business needs and performance at the bottom. It's just so funny to me. Anytime the church acts like a corporation in their or. Or puts it in words in that way because it is a church, but they're saying this is for their business needs, which I understand. Like they have business needs, but it's just funny.

John Dehlin [00:21:07] They have more business needs than they have membership needs. Let's just be clear.

Meggan Hayes [00:21:12] Yes, yes. So yeah, I mean this, this starts out quite innocuous, right? It's fine.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] Our own mod Trevor says, hey John, sounds like you might qualify for that position. I just may apply. I just may apply. Trevanon. Thanks for moderating, by the way. All right, let's go to the next slide.

Guest 3 [00:21:29] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:21:29] Yeah, so this is the next paragraph and I have it broken down there. Over to the Right. So it's saying the responsibilities, which are 60% missionary health, diagnosis, treatment, proper care, medical evacuation and transportation issues, 20% worthiness and disobedience, efforts to give missionaries an opportunity to fulfill a successful mission, 15% legal issues, arrests and child abuse cases involving missionaries before or during a mission, protecting the interests of the church missionary, particularly in wrongful accusations and victims and 5% emergencies, death of a missionary, civil unrest or natural disasters requiring evacuation, reporting and coordination.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] This is where, this is where we have the audio of like a car's brakes screeching and then the car crashes into the wall. Because I'm like, what the heck? I want to hear your take first and then I'll.

Meggan Hayes [00:22:30] Well, the. What was the qualification for this in that first one? Like you had to, let's see, serve as a key resource. Let's see, is it in the next one where. Oh, it's the next one that has the qualifications.

John Dehlin [00:22:44] Okay, okay, okay, let's read that.

Meggan Hayes [00:22:46] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:22:46] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:22:46] So who qualifies service as a full time mission president as well as broad ecclesiastical experience. That's a skill or a to something you need to have done. Demonstrated management skills, ability to work under pressure, experience with personal computers, and fluency in Spanish. Those are the qualifications for. Now let's go back to nine. All of the things that you have to do. Missionary health, worthiness and obedience. Legal issues. It didn't say these people needed to be a lawyer or even have legal experience and emergencies. I mean, the qualifications don't seem to match what they're asking this person to do, which is one of the first things that stood out to me.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] Okay, so they're basically looking for former mission presidents. And I think the thumbnail that you created in the title that we gave kind of is the lead story. The church is hiring for a fixer. And so I guess the idea that you're kind of getting at here, Meggan, is that they want a former mission president, probably someone who's retired, probably someone who's wealthy, probably someone who's super loyal, someone who knows how to keep a secret, someone who has an active temple recommend. So they covenanted to give their own lives, if necessary, to the church and to never speak ill of the Lord's anointed.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] Looks like they're hiring them to be fixers to handle, you know, when missions go wrong. And the thing that caught my eye was worthiness and disobedience. So this is to. To deal with missionary behavioral problems, rule breaking, probably sexual indiscretion, probably, you know, violations of the law of Chastity and probably child abuse, missionaries committing child abuse.

John Dehlin [00:24:47] And, and, and then it just goes on and says it. Legal issues. Missionaries are apparently Mormon missionaries are getting arrested for child abuse both before their missions and during their missions. And then to me, this is the most shocking thing of all.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] It talks about what the role is of this fixer and the order says everything. I'm thinking Back to the 1-800-hotline, the Bishop's Hotline that we, we've covered and that Michael Rosendez and Tim Koznoff and others have covered. When, when the, when the protocol was leaked that showed what the Kurt McConkey lawyers and paralegals inquired about, when the hotline got called, it was all about protecting the church's legal interests. And there was literally not a single question about the victims. And again, that's that. And I don't mean to be stealing your thunder, but that's what comes to my mind here. They're talking about, when they talk about legal issues, they're talking about missionaries as child abusers.

John Dehlin [00:25:58] And, and then they talk about we need to hire a fixer who's experienced and loyal and the number one interest that we want them looking out after is what, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:26:09] Protecting the interests of the church.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] That's number one. And then once that's covered, if there's any time or money left over, then they're going to look after the interests of who? The missionary, which again is kind of looking out after the interests of the church because you don't want those missionaries to saying the wrong thing to police or saying the wrong thing in court. So you definitely want to protect the predators. Right. I mean, isn't that on brand that the church in its, the way it handles abuse is it always thinks name of the church, reputation of the church, assets of the church first, then it protects the predators. Right?

Guest [00:26:50] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:26:51] And then if it has any time or interest left over, which it usually doesn't. And, but, but, but the thing that is always looked after last, the people who are always looked after last when there's abuse in the Mormon Church, is who, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:27:08] The victim. It's last. It's at the very end of that paragraph.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] This up.

Meggan Hayes [00:27:15] So bad. Yeah, so bad. Well, the other thing is that they have it divided up by percentages. Okay. So 60, 60%, 6, 0 is missionary health, which I think a lot of that is actually mental health issues that they're having. They don't say that on there. They say diagnosis, treatment. But some random previous mission president shouldn't be diagnosing missionaries first of all, 20% worthiness and disobedience. So 20% of their time they're going to be dealing with missionaries who are doing likely normal, healthy things, just, you know, liking people, wanting to have sex with people, maybe doing those things. 20% of their time is going to be dealing with that.

Meggan Hayes [00:27:57] But 15% of their time with missionaries is going to be legal issues like they have. They keep track of everything, so they have to know that's a fairly valid number. To put it out there in black and white as 15%. And then they put the victims at the very end of that.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] Yeah, it's, it's crazy. It's even ridiculous to have a former mission president helping with that 60%. What is a mission president doing? Diagnosis. Dealing with the diagnosis, treatment, proper care, and medical evacuation of missionaries. Like, shouldn't that be a psychiatrist or a psychologist? Like, why don't they have doctors and psychologists dealing with missionary mental health? And then, Meggan, why don't they have former police officers and former law enforcement officers dealing with sexual abuse with missionaries sexually abusing children? Why don't they have former police officers who can handle the reporting of the missionaries to, to the police?

Meggan Hayes [00:29:07] Well, because they don't want it reported. They, they want their lawyers to be the first call. I mean, that's, that's what they want.

John Dehlin [00:29:17] They're looking for loyalty. This is all about loyalty. We need fixers who will stay quiet, support of the church's interests, and, and do whatever we ask, obey our authority, and, you know, protect the church's name, you know. Yeah, protect the missionaries and at the expense of the victims. And then again, the quiet part, out loud, death of a missionary. I think we have a lot more deaths of missionaries than we really hear about. You probably cover those quite a bit on your show, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:29:53] I think last year I found nine that were publicized, which even. That's a lot. But if they have 90,000 missionaries out now, I'm sure there are far more.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] Yeah, yeah. And I've covered on Mormon stories before. One of the most disturbing parts of Mormonism are how missionaries are often put in harm's way, whether it's in really unsafe, you know, neighborhoods where they're asked to live and a proselyte, whether it's in unsanitary living conditions, unsafe living conditions, or whether it's, you know, mission presidents and their spouses who don't provide proper mental health care or medical care for the missionaries, such that they go untreated for significant medical issues or they go untreated or folk wisdom. Or superstition governs how mission presidents and their wives recommend or don't recommend proper medical and mental health treatment for missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:31:10] It's been mind blowing to me how unsafe oftentimes Mormon missionaries are. And don't even get me started about Africa. Right. And what I've heard about missionaries in sub Saharan Africa. So. And then we all know what, what's the rule about writing home or, or calling home to talk about problems on your mission?

Meggan Hayes [00:31:30] Yeah, you don't do it if it's not positive and faith promoting. You keep it to yourself.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] Yeah. That's literally in the handbook as I understand it, or at least it used to be. So.

Meggan Hayes [00:31:39] Well, and if it's, I don't think it's in the handbook anymore, but it's one of those spoken outside the handbook rules because missionaries are still getting that counsel. There's a, a book coming out. I've, I've gotten some emails from the person who is compiling it about stories from missionaries who have very explicitly been told, you don't write home about this. Like, you know, this many stabbings in our neighborhood this week. And, and actually when I was at San Antonio Thrive, there was a gentleman who told us his story about his son who was stabbed on his mission. And this wasn't that long ago because the son is not that old. So this was fairly recent and he survived. But it's been a long road to recovery. And the church, there were times when they said if you talk about this, you all of the monetary help we're giving you will go away immediately.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] We've got our first, first super chat for today. We really appreciate those who donate and Support us. Matt N2381 writes, I remember tracting in bad neighborhoods because leadership wanted all doors knocked on and had guns pulled on me. Thank you for sharing. Matt. Thank you for the super chat. And yeah, I know many missionaries that had guns pulled on them. My mission president had a gun pulled on him and his wife had a gun pull on her where literally someone sticks a gun in the, in the car and says get out. And then they drive away with the car. They. On my mission, both by mission president and his wife got carjacked and, and the, the cars were stolen at gunpoint.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] Anyway, I also loved my mission and that's the tough thing is I know so many Mormons that say their mission was one of the best parts about their lives. And I, I have to admit I learned a lot serving a mission in Guatemala and living in a developing country, living amongst poverty and in Small villages. I wouldn't trade it.

John Dehlin [00:33:40] I would not give that up. If I could go back, I would still have gone. So it's just, it's complicated. But that's a great story.

Meggan Hayes [00:33:49] What do you think they need to change so that. Because I do agree that a year or two of travel after high school and before college are mixed in. There is, can be really important for someone, for a teenager who's becoming an adult. But what could they do?

John Dehlin [00:34:07] Well, I think, I think the church has so much money that they could just make sure, you know, the one thing you know for sure is that the mission president and his wife always live in the wealthiest part of the, of the mission. In Guatemala, we're talking, it was Vista Hermosa, Zone 15. And it was like basically mansions and gated communities with swimming pool in the back and, you know, super wealthy, secure guarded areas. And with all the church's money, why doesn't it just make sure that missionaries aren't living in squalor, but aren't living in, in war zones and, and in, you know, really unsafe, unlivable conditions? They could just use their money to do that. Right?

Meggan Hayes [00:34:59] Could they have like a bodyguard if they do go into areas that are not as safe? I mean, I think the church could afford it. They send bodyguards with the, the leaders for sure.

John Dehlin [00:35:11] Yeah, they could do a lot. They could have definitely security. They could also have. Why doesn't every mission have a mission doctor? Right. A mission nurse available at all times, you know, for the need. Sometimes they try and provide like a regional doctor or regional psychologist. But anyway, what a great story. Thank you for sharing that, Meggan. I think it's just so weird how the church is always saying the quiet parts out loud, isn't it?

Meggan Hayes [00:35:44] I know, because when you're putting out a job description, how vague can you really be? Yeah. The other thing in the qualifications is they have to have a temple recommend. Of course.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] Yeah. Loyalty. Meggan, don't you think the church should hire us because we can save them from some of these embarrassments by now, don't you think?

Guest 2 [00:35:59] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:36:00] Oh, absolutely. Well, because I think we'd be willing to be honest, right? Like we're not going to sugarcoat it. We're not going to say, yes, you have 90,000 missionaries out and every one of them is sublimely happy. We're going to say, look, these are kids. I mean, they're adults, but they're so young. They need a lot of instruction, a lot of support if you want them to be successful. Here are some of the Things you could implement. Yeah, yeah.

Body Cam Footage in Maryland Assault Case

John Dehlin [00:36:24] All right, let's go to the next story. What do we got here?

Meggan Hayes [00:36:27] This newly released body cam footage. So this is a case that came out two years ago, but this is the first time the body cam footage has been released. And I'm not going to describe a lot about it because the, the footage will kind of tell the story.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] All right, let's, let's play the clip.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:36:48] Police go out to a home in Woodbine, Maryland, where 22 year old Monica says she found something disturbing in her bathroom vent. The names of the victims have been changed to protect their identities and the footage has never been seen before.

Video Clip 2 [00:37:01] So what's going on?

Video Clip 2 [00:37:04] Okay, so she's. I, I got school bus. So I just got home off my run and she's like 3 or 3:30. But I went into the bathroom and I'll show you. But I went to the bathroom and I see like, like a reflection sort of, you know, like the camera lens and. Way down here, buddy, like you guys step in.

Video Clip 2 [00:37:37] Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:37:37] Here.

Video Clip 2 [00:37:38] I mean, yeah, I showed my mom in it. She was like, okay, like poked it and it went down a little bit.

Video Clip 2 [00:37:47] Yeah.

Video Clip 2 [00:37:49] Honestly, I thought it was a Lego. And so I reached for it and. And it wedged down a little bit further. But like the picture shows it up and angled like right up to where you're standing kind of.

Video Clip 2 [00:38:05] That's the best one.

Video Clip 2 [00:38:07] Okay, what do you think?

John Dehlin [00:38:11] All right, tell us what we just saw, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:38:14] So Tina. Well, I think she's in her early 20s at this point. She is in her bathroom getting ready and notices something glinting underneath the vent. So she pulls on it, thinks it's a camera. She gets her mom in there and then they call the police. And it's in Maryland. And I think it's.

Guest [00:38:33] Let's see the.

Meggan Hayes [00:38:36] Yeah. So the next slide just says it's from. The footage was from October of 2024. And the family appears to be active Mormons. I couldn't confirm confirm that, but I'm like 99% sure.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] Yeah, somebody sent me this as well.

Meggan Hayes [00:38:51] Okay, so, yeah, go to the next clip.

John Dehlin [00:38:54] All right, but. So all I did really is quickly Google it. I didn't make the phone call that I said I was. It's more than likely a camera, unfortunately. Oh my God. And with that, the ones I've seen, there's like a USB attached to it. So I wanted to take another look.

Guest 5 [00:39:15] In the basement behind the walls, they find proof of just how much effort went into this invasive scheme.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] Do you see something?

Guest [00:39:22] Okay.

Guest 4 [00:39:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] Can you describe it for me?

Meggan Hayes [00:39:27] It's like a little jack.

Guest 5 [00:39:29] Now that it's clear that someone has been spying on Monica, both she and her mom believe they know exactly who that someone is.

John Dehlin [00:39:38] So somebody's installed a camera in the home into the bathrooms?

Meggan Hayes [00:39:45] Yeah, that upstairs bathroom that she shared with her sister. Her sister is older now and has gone off to join the military, but it was the two girls that used that bathroom.

John Dehlin [00:39:54] Oh, man, I'm getting sick to my stomach.

Meggan Hayes [00:39:56] Okay, yeah, go to the next slide. Because the camera was installed by her father, Ryan. According to records, Ryan Christopher hall was an active member of the Woodbine Ward within the Frederick, Maryland, stake. Over the years, he held multiple leadership and instructional roles within the church, including serving in a local ward bishopric, serving in Sunday school presidencies, participating in the young men's program, and working as a young, single adult Sunday school teacher.

John Dehlin [00:40:25] I am sick. So this guy, he's an active Mormon. He's been in bishoprics. He's been in Sunday school presidencies where he's over children. He's been in the young men's program, which they never let me be a part of, by the way. I was too dangerous and unworthy to work with the young men. But they've got this guy, and he worked as a young, single adult Sunday school teacher. I'm just sick right now.

Meggan Hayes [00:40:55] Yeah, I watched this video. My sister was in town, and we pulled it up and watched it, and we're just sitting there with our mouths open, like, holding our hearts, like. This is just awful. It's really awful.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] Okay, I'll comment in a sec. Should we play the next clip?

Meggan Hayes [00:41:13] Yes.

Bishopric Member Hidden Camera and Abuse Case

John Dehlin [00:41:13] Okay.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [00:41:16] We found the camera that was mounted under the radiator in your daughter's bedroom

Video Clip 3 [00:41:23] in your daughter's bathroom. We seized it, and we'd like to

Video Clip 3 [00:41:28] talk to you about that. Are you interested in talking to me and talking to us about this? Do you have any knowledge of what we're talking about?

Video Clip 3 [00:41:35] No, I have no interest in talking

Video Clip 3 [00:41:37] to anyone about this.

Video Clip 3 [00:41:38] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [00:41:38] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [00:41:39] I know your situation at home, Ryan.

Video Clip 3 [00:41:42] I know that you're not happily married. I know that you're just cohabitating together. I know you're a devout Mormon, and

Video Clip 3 [00:41:49] I know that you're doing everything you can to keep your family together.

Video Clip 3 [00:41:53] Maybe you're supplementing some things to keep the family together.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] Whoa, that's interesting.

Meggan Hayes [00:42:01] Right?

John Dehlin [00:42:03] What are your thoughts?

Meggan Hayes [00:42:04] Well, this idea in Mormonism that, Ma', am, families can be together forever sometimes has some dark sides to it, where people are married and getting Divorced would probably be the healthier thing, but they keep their marriages together. I mean, it could be financial reasons, but sometimes I have known that it's because they made a covenant. They're trying to keep their family together because that's what they think God wants, even though it's unhealthy. There should be more separation. There should be boundaries in place. And I know, as when my marriage was hard, I just wasn't given the tools to understand what I could even do about it. So they're bringing this up in the interrogation, which is interesting, but it just made me think about how families can be together. Isn't the most positive, healthy thing for everybody?

John Dehlin [00:43:00] Yeah, I just like, what would make a dad want to peep on his own daughters? And again, I know there's. I mean, I'm going to say it's mental illness. I don't know what else it could be. So. So that I'll just never understand any adult's impulse to feel any sexual attraction towards their own offspring. But aside from that, why do these people keep ending up in Mormon bishoprics? It's almost like the Mormon Church is using its alleged gift of discernment to make sure that every bishop has a sexual predator. Every bishopric has a sexual predator. In the bishopric, like, it just seems like it's almost more likely than not your average Mormon bishopric is going to have a sexual predator. What is going on, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:43:52] I don't know. It's true, though. Like, whenever we find one, well, they come to us. We don't even go out looking for them. It happens to be someone either in a bishopric or a stake presidency. Why is it that those are the men who rise in the ranks in that way? Like, are they more charismatic? Are they. It's. It doesn't seem right. And it definitely shows us that discernment is not working if they can't weed these out over and over and over again.

John Dehlin [00:44:22] It's not just not working. It's like their system somehow promotes and advances sexual predators. It's the opposite of not working. They have a system that preferences. We. We've already talked about Wade Christopherson. We've talked about David mcconi, who after, you know, after he admitted abusing an infant in, I believe, the shower, if I'm remembering right, confessing that to his bishop, if I've read the report correctly, allegedly he ends up in a bishopric and in a stake president, as stake president. And now this guy, like, it's like the church somehow is. Is cultivating leaders that also are sexual predators.

Meggan Hayes [00:45:14] Is it like that they're naive like, because if you're David McConkey's stake president and, and you know that those things have happened, but then you decide to call him into a bishopric, is it because they think he's confessed? And who better to have as a bishop than, than someone who understands the forgiveness process? Is that what they're trying to do? It doesn't make any sense to me. If someone commits a crime against children, they should have. They can never be in a bishopric again. Just end of story. Like that seems like a no brainer to me.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] Not just that, but why don't they like, like there's personality tests you can take, there's background checks. Like certainly with, again, if we're going to talk about how much wealth the church has, $300 billion in counting in assets, it's going to be a trillion dollar church. Why don't they invest in the best personality profilers, slash private investigators, slash, you know, background checkers so that they can keep sexual predators out of young men's programs, young women's programs, bishoprics and leadership positions?

Meggan Hayes [00:46:30] Well, if, if I'm a, a person who is a sexual predator, I think would be drawn to the church because right now, especially in the US So many people are leaving. Right. So there are a lot of boards that are desperate to have enough people to fill the callings. And there are no safeguards put in place, no reasonable work, reasonably working safeguards put in place. So these men are like, if I go there and I show willingness, I'm gonna get put in a calling and they know that they'll have access.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] Yeah, it's like if you apply to work for the Boy Scouts, you were more likely to be a predator because you wanted to work for the Boy Scouts, because you are a predator. It almost seems like predators are behaving in ways that make the church want to put them in leadership positions so they can have access to children and youth.

Meggan Hayes [00:47:32] Yeah, I mean it would be so interesting to be able to interview this guy and be like, did you know that you would have this access if you just showed up and expressed even the tiniest bit of interest in having whatever calling they would give you? Like that you would take it. Like, did you know that then you'd have access? Did you think about that? Like, what was his mindset? Because I would think that there would be quite a few who would say yes, I understood that if I was willing, I could get callings and I would be put in positions with people who I could then harm.

John Dehlin [00:48:06] Yeah, it's wild. Let's play the last clip, even though I don't want to. Let's play it.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [00:48:11] She eventually tells investigators that Ryan's advances went well beyond back scratches. Both sisters recall several graphic moments of their father's vastly inappropriate behavior. Mary tells investigators that she's thought about those moments almost every day since. Ryan has already denied any inappropriate contact with his daughters. And he refuses to even address the camera found in Monica's bathroom.

Video Clip 4 [00:48:36] Listen, I told you when we sat down, this is the hardest interview I have ever done in my career.

Video Clip 4 [00:48:45] Because you and I are the good guys.

Video Clip 4 [00:48:47] Obviously not.

Video Clip 4 [00:48:48] And with those two words, Ryan, who has spent most of this interview mute, finally decides it's time to come clean about some things.

Video Clip 4 [00:48:56] Obviously, there's a problem.

Video Clip 4 [00:48:58] Okay, what is the problem?

Video Clip 4 [00:48:59] And that's what you want to hear.

Video Clip 4 [00:49:02] Okay, I did put that there.

Video Clip 4 [00:49:04] Okay.

Video Clip 4 [00:49:05] Because I have a problem. I have broken a fundamental trust.

Meggan Hayes [00:49:09] And where do you go from there?

Guest 1 [00:49:10] It is hard to recover from. But you're a Mormon, right?

John Dehlin [00:49:14] That doesn't have anything to do. Why doesn't it?

Guest 1 [00:49:17] Because what does? Christ. What does Christ.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] Christ brings us in.

Guest 1 [00:49:21] Right.

Meggan Hayes [00:49:22] And I understand the aspect of forgiveness,

Guest 5 [00:49:24] but that doesn't make it so that

Meggan Hayes [00:49:27] any relationship with her would be any different.

Guest 5 [00:49:30] Or any of the other members of

John Dehlin [00:49:31] my family, for that matter.

Guest 5 [00:49:32] Ryan hall pled guilty to charges involving his daughters in both state and federal prosecutions. In a motion, Ryan's lawyer said that his client had been shunned by his family and the men and women he served with at the Hartford County Sheriff's Office. He was sentenced to 36 years in federal prison, which will run concurrent to a 40 year sentence handed down by the Carroll County Circuit Court.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] And somebody's saying. Somebody's saying in the comments, he's a police officer, is that right?

Meggan Hayes [00:50:01] Yeah, he was a detective. He worked for the Sheriff's office. He started as a property crime detective, I believe, and then moved his way up.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] All right, here's the slide. Maybe. Yeah, let's let you finish that slide.

Meggan Hayes [00:50:14] Okay, so hall reportedly served in church leadership and teaching positions. What does a case like this reveal about the limits of ecclesiastical discernment? We kind of discussed that, too. What would meaningful institutional accountability look like in a case like this? That one really got me thinking. And then 3. Does the LDS Church look any different today than it would if God were really at the head of it? What should be different? They were just questions I have whenever I see a case like this.

Meggan Hayes [00:50:40] Like what does institutional account accountability look like? And and when I really thought about that, it would mean whoever called him into those positions saying, we were wrong, we were wrong, we didn't know. We couldn't tell that he was a predator. And they will never do that.

Meggan Hayes [00:51:02] But that's something important for the people in award to know. When I was a very believing member, I was starting to get wise about protecting my children and teaching them about consent. But it took a lot of years for me to do that because it was something that I wasn't taught. And I had a trust for anybody who said they were a member.

Meggan Hayes [00:51:24] And there are quite a few people who I went to church with who now are in a similar position as this guy who I was like, whoa, them? Really? I thought they were a great person. Yeah, like, people just need to be educated that just because someone's called that doesn't mean that they're not a predator. And that's not something that the church is willing to admit.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] The thing that I hate most about the way the church deals with, with people like this is that if this hadn't, you know, if the police hadn't been involved, if this had had a, you know, this had been. Somehow the bishop had found out.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] But, but, but police didn't get involved, this guy would probably not have been disciplined. He probably would not have been excommunicated. It would have been swept under the rug like David McConkey, like Wade Christofferson. And this guy would have been back in leadership positions, likely over children and youth within a year or five.

John Dehlin [00:52:28] The only time church discipline happens is, is if it becomes a public matter that everyone knows about. And, and even then it, you know, just give enough time and the record won't be annotated, the membership record won't be annotated, or the membership record will get expunged. Over time, this guy can move to a different ward and just begin his predation all over again. Because it's, it's clearly against the church's interest to track, to report these people to the police, to track them in their membership record and to make sure ward and stake members, both locally and wherever these people move to, to make sure the warden stake members know that they have predators among them.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] And that has to be because there are just so many that if every, if every Mormon ward member or stake member knew how many predators were actually in their midst, they probably wouldn't want to come to church. And they certain wouldn't, certainly wouldn't want to bring their children to church because they would know that their children were likely Surrounded by sexual predators.

Meggan Hayes [00:53:38] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh, it's just so astounding, the levels that they go to. Like, when I was paying tithing, I had absolutely no idea that some of that money was silencing victims who'd been abused by their bishops or their stake presidents. Yeah, I didn't understand that. That's disgusting.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] Yeah. And that's what the whole law firm, Kurt McConkey, I'm guessing that's one of the major things they do, is constantly settle and silence and litigate child sexual abuse cases. That's got to be one of their main.

Meggan Hayes [00:54:15] I know we need a percentage like we had on that fixer, one of what their percentages look like. What percentage is child abuse?

John Dehlin [00:54:23] Why shouldn't churches have to publicly disclose instances of abuse annually so that you could just know how much abuse is going on in any local Mormon ward or stake?

Meggan Hayes [00:54:37] Well, if they wanted to do the right thing, why wouldn't they just do it whether they were required to or not?

John Dehlin [00:54:43] Yeah. Yeah, they could do that very easily, and they don't. Really quickly, I just want to thank Exmo Ramo. He writes, any crime against children should be an automatic excommunication with no opportunity to be baptized during this life.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] Absolutely agree. Thank you, Exmo Ramo, for the comment and for the super chat. I'll just say really quickly. It's kind of a public service announcement. We made a call. I made a really strong call last week to ask for people to step up and become supporters of this show, this Mormon News Podcast show. Meggan. And I am happy to announce that we now have 33 listeners who have signed up as recurring donors to the show.

Donor Appreciation and St. George Thrive Announcement

John Dehlin [00:55:34] So I'm really grateful for the dozen of you who signed up over the past month. And of course, we're grateful to all the current Mormon Stories donors who just are already recurring donors. But if you're not a current Mormon Stories donor or if you haven't donated to this show, the Mormon News podcast, and you want to see it continue, I think we can do better than 33 people. What do you think, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:56:04] I think so, absolutely. I think I. My time is very valuable, and I do this because I think it's important that people know. And if people who are listening also think it's important, I think that's a way they can show us. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] So go to mormonnews.com and click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. I really think we need to have 100 recurring donors to feel like people really value and appreciate the show. So, again, if you're already donating to Mormon Stories. Don't stress. We're grateful. Thank you. If you're freeloading and not supporting our show, we would love it if you would go to mormonnews.com and become a monthly donor. All right, you've got another public service announcement in here. Meggan, what's this?

Meggan Hayes [00:56:51] Yeah, St. George Thrive. It's going to be March 5th through 7th. I just hear people sometimes say I didn't know about Thrive, so I figured we'd throw this in again. It's going to be in St. George March 5th through 7th of 2027. I went to this one last year. It was fantastic. The speakers this year will be Michael Foley, Chris Bartlett, Sally Osborne, Lena osborne, Colby Reddish, Dr. Christine Marie Gnomes by slain Dr. John Lundwall and Dr. Julie de Azevedo. So a fantastic lineup.

Guest [00:57:20] It.

Meggan Hayes [00:57:21] I went with my sister and she said it was the community.

John Dehlin [00:57:25] That's where I got convinced to bring you on Mormon Stories, right? You and your sister.

Meggan Hayes [00:57:30] Yeah, yeah. You heard us talking. So there was another person there who. It was her first time ever going to an event. She was very dazed out of the church, and she sat in the back and cried the entire time, just trying to figure out what she was doing. Her brain was exploding. She was having all these feelings. And my sister and I sat by her and just talked to her. I still text with her occasionally, and we were at karaoke and she was asking us about our story. And then, yeah, you kind of joined in our conversation. That's how I ended up on Mormon Stories and eventually here. So all sorts of things, good things can happen as St. George thrive.

John Dehlin [00:58:08] Yeah, go to. Go to Thrive and you may end up on a podcast, right? Yeah. No, no, St. George Thrive is great. And it's March 5th through 7th. It's an entire weekend in St. George, and it's going to be great. Really quickly, we also just had Liza Wake 614 gifted five Mormon stories podcast memberships. You could also join as like a. A member of the Mormon Stories podcast community on YouTube. We really appreciate anyone who supports us in any way that they can. All right, Meggan. Well, now let's go to this ongoing story about abortion legislation in Idaho. And I guess, is it Nevada? Is that right?

Mormon Doctor in Idaho Abortion Law Fight

Meggan Hayes [00:58:52] Mm, yeah, it's both Idaho and Nevada. This next part of the story is specifically Idaho, but there's a similar fight, I guess, going on in Nevada. But in Nevada, members are less percentage of the population, so they don't have as much of a sway there. And in Idaho, it seems to be a much bigger deal in the Mormon community versus the non Mormon community.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] So what's this first clip?

Meggan Hayes [00:59:18] So, well, the. If you go to slide 21. Oh, yeah. So Idaho OBG OBGYN follows the Brethren. We're going to meet Heather Pugmire. She is an OB GYN in Idaho. She. Her professional credentials. She graduated from byu. She went to Creighton University School of Medicine. She did her residency at Creighton University. She's a member of the American Medical Medical association, and she's a member of American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. Her clinical focus is pregnancy, labor and delivery, menstrual irregularities, urinary incontinence, gynecology surgery, including hysterectomy and ovary removal for benign conditions using the da Vinci surgical system. I think it's just important to understand that she is highly qualified in her field.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] And it's super rare that a Mormon woman would become a medical doctor. Right?

Meggan Hayes [01:00:14] Yeah.

Guest [01:00:14] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:00:15] Actually, I started out pre med when I was first going to Rick's College, but I changed my major because it became really apparent that it would be difficult or maybe looked down upon for me to do that and be a mother, which is what I was really supposed to do.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] Do you regret that? Do you wish you had gone to med school now?

Meggan Hayes [01:00:37] I mean. No, I. There are a lot of things I wish I would have done differently. I think I would have done fantastically at med school. I think I would have been a very compassionate doctor. But I mean, now looking, I have six kids. I obviously don't regret any of them. Do I wish I would have maybe waited a little longer to start having kids? Yes. Been a little less poor? Absolutely. It was really hard. But I love where my life is now. So it's hard to take any of the decisions from the past and have positive or negative. They just are what they are now. And I love where I'm at.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] If you became a medical doctor, there's no way you would have a super successful Mormon news channel and. And be an international superstar. So there you go.

Meggan Hayes [01:01:25] Exactly. Exactly. That's what I was trying to say, John.

John Dehlin [01:01:28] All right, well, I haven't seen this clip yet, so I'm dying to see what Dr. Heather Puckmire, OB GYN has to say about this Idaho case.

Meggan Hayes [01:01:39] Yeah, so she. Yeah, she went on Mormon Land, which is a podcast the Salt Lake Tribune puts out. So those are the clips we're going to listen to.

John Dehlin [01:01:45] All right, let's roll it.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [01:01:47] Last month, the U.S. central Area Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ the Latter Day Saints, issued an official statement opposing the Idaho Reproductive Freedom and Privacy act, better known as Proposition 1. The memo was brief. Its signers, all men, did not get into the debates swirling around the ballot measure, widely seen as having a decent shot at passing this November. Instead, it read, quote, our long held stance on abortion remains clear and unchanged. A nearly identical message went out around the same time to church members in Nevada who will soon vote on an abortion access bill. Official church policy opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience.

Video Clip 5 [01:02:30] However, it has long held that there are circumstances in which abortion is not a sin. Those include a pregnancy resulting from rape or incest if the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, and instances when a fetus is found to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. Current Idaho law is more restrictive, barring abortion at all stages of pregnancy, with an exception for the life of the mother. Survivors of rape and incest who have reported the crime to law enforcement can also sink an abortion during the first trimester. In contrast, Prop 1 goes arguably further in its allowances than church policy, establishing a right to make private reproductive healthcare decisions, including abortion up to fetal viability and in medical emergencies.

Video Clip 5 [01:03:25] The result is a latter day sink community split in its support of the measure and heated arguments online and off over what these laws and proposed laws mean for maternal and newborn health. Here to help us ground this conversation in the day to day care of patients is Heather Pugmire.

John Dehlin [01:03:44] All right, I recognize that voice. That's Tamara Kemsley of the Salt Lake Tribune. She's a friend of Mormon Stories podcast in my opinion, and I really love her work. So tell us what we just heard, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [01:03:57] She gave a really good sum up of what it is that's going on and pointed out something that I think is really interesting, that the Church's position on abortion actually right now falls between the current Idaho law, which is very restrictive, and Proposition one, which gives more, I don't want to say leeway. It gives different options when it comes to abortion, along with the care of a medical doctor. And the Church's policy is actually in the middle. So the church currently has a less restrictive restrictive abortion policy than the Idaho law. But they're still saying vote down Proposition 1, even though the law is more restrict than their current policy.

John Dehlin [01:04:42] Yeah, and it sounds like it's. It's dividing the Mormon community in Idaho. That's what I. That's what I heard.

Guest 2 [01:04:48] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:04:49] Because the Church's policy is in the middle. So if they read the policy and then they read the current law and the proposed, you know, the proposition, they're like, well, where do we actually land policies in the middle?

John Dehlin [01:05:00] Why is the church supporting legislation that's harsher than the church's own abortion policies Internally?

Meggan Hayes [01:05:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:08] And should the church be influencing laws that affect non Mormons in ways that the church feels is appropriate? It would be like, I don't know, Catholics, like outlawing, what, red meat on Lent or whatever the tradition is. Why would any religion impose their particular religious beliefs on an entire state's population that may not share those religious beliefs? That just seems inappropriate.

Meggan Hayes [01:05:41] Yes, exactly. And that's another issue. Even active members are having that issue.

John Dehlin [01:05:48] Let's play the next clip.

▶ Video Clip 6

Video Clip 6 [01:05:53] How did your practice change in the wake of the Supreme Court's decision overturning Roe?

Video Clip 6 [01:06:00] The biggest one is it's made it impossible to recruit other OB GYNs to the area. And so my ability to keep practicing at this pace that I'm currently practicing has been really hard. And I've been on the verge of having to quit because I don't have the support. I can't be on 24 7. I can't be doing this on my

Video Clip 6 [01:06:26] own

Video Clip 6 [01:06:29] for extended periods of time. I've tried. It doesn't work. And so you need other competent docs that are with you that are helping you do this. And, and we used to be able to get some. It takes a little time, but, you know, six months or so we would be able to get somebody to come. It's been over three years and we won't, we can't get anyone to even listen to the offer. So a lot of people will say, well, just offer them more money. And we can't even get to where we can offer them more money because they say, oh, you're in Idaho, nevermind. So it really has made it, the law has made it feel like. And Idaho doesn't trust doctors.

John Dehlin [01:07:08] All right, Meggan, what do you think about that?

Meggan Hayes [01:07:11] So it's so interesting because the church is simultaneously really pushing for young people to get married and have children. And there are a lot of those young people who are in Idaho, Rexburg especially, I think is 98% members.

Meggan Hayes [01:07:25] But they're losing OBGYN's maternal care because doctors won't go there because they're afraid that if they have to do an abortion to save a mother, that they will go to jail. So if a, if a woman comes in and the fetus inside her is, has passed instead, they can't save the fetus. The fetus needs to come out or the mother could become septic. There are doctors who are then afraid that if they do that, even though it is medically necessary, that they could go to jail. So they don't want to practice in Idaho. So the church wants people to have babies, but they are inadvertently, by striking down this major.

Meggan Hayes [01:08:07] Preventing women and newborns from having access to the care they need. Because doctors. Obgyn. Obgyn doctors won't go to Idaho. They don't want to go there. They don't want the liability.

John Dehlin [01:08:22] Yeah. It's almost like it almost be great if the church had a profit so that the prophet could see around the corners and anticipate unanticipated consequences. Because as we discussed in previous episodes, abortions have increased since Roe vs. Wade was struck down. They haven't decreased, they've increased.

John Dehlin [01:08:45] And does the church literally want to support legislation that's going to make it harder for women, Mormon women to get ob GYN care in Idaho? Well, that's what they're doing by supporting this legislation. They're going to make it so in the state of Idaho. I just looked it up. 25% of Idaho is reported to be LDS.

John Dehlin [01:09:09] And, and I, I assume the brethren might care about the non LDS women in Idaho as well. I'm not sure. But you would think that the prophet could foresee that the church's stance on abortion, particularly on this piece of legislation, is going to end up reducing the available health care to its own women in the state. That's outrageous. That's ridiculous.

Meggan Hayes [01:09:36] Yeah. What would it look like if they had a prophet who could have foreseen that? I think maybe a little different, but

John Dehlin [01:09:43] now that now they know it, now they know it, they could change it. Right. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:09:49] Why? And that's what I don't understand is how they have not thought of that. With all of the people involved in the church in Salt Lake, all of the leaders, all of their advisors and committees, how have they not foreseen that that letter they sent to Idaho could keep their own members from getting the health care that they need? It could literally lead to the deaths of mothers in Idaho who could otherwise be saved if they had the proper care.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] Yeah. By the way, Oaks is not only the father of the Mormon Church's LGBTQ policies, Dallin H. Oaks is the father of the church's child abuse policies and specifically the child abusers protections policies. That's Oaks as well. And there's just a 100% guarantee that Oaks is behind the support of this abortion legislation. And I'll just add that 10, 20, 30 years ago, the church that I was a member of would not have supported this type of legislation. This is actually the church becoming more fundamentalist, more conservative, more Republican. And it's got, in my opinion, Dallin, a chokes fingerprints all over it.

Meggan Hayes [01:11:12] Yes, yeah, I agree. And I was talking about this last time. I actually sent you a message during the week, John, with the progression of how churches in the US got involved in abortion so heavily, because it did not used to be this polarizing political topic like it is today. And yeah, the LDS Church has jumped right on board with this is. I mean, they've always had policies around abortion, but they have gotten a lot more strict and they have gotten far more political about it.

John Dehlin [01:11:43] I remember the scripture. Woe unto those who call good evil and evil good. It's weird when religious things do the opposite of what they're supposed to do. When prophets not only don't prophesy and see and reveal what's coming in the future, but they actually make decisions that harm the causes that the church actually cares about. It's weird when the prophets are literally doing the opposite of what they're supposed to be doing. Instead of protecting members by preventing harm, they're harming members by causing extra harm. Yeah, this world is just upside down sometimes.

Meggan Hayes [01:12:27] Yeah, it's. It's like they're sitting around in a room with only men and they're not really getting a good voice from women who've experienced these things.

John Dehlin [01:12:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, if the church could be 50% women led, maybe the church wouldn't make decisions like this. Is that what you're saying, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [01:12:49] Yeah. Because I would guess that there's someone in the female leadership already who has had an experience like this affect their life in one way or another, whether it's a daughter, a cousin, a sister. These things happen all the time. And they. Those voices are ones that they're either not hearing or they don't care about.

John Dehlin [01:13:12] And this reminds me of the reaction that one of the Paul brothers and Mattie Packer did to Julie. Julie de Azevedos. Soft, right, Underbelly. I don't know if you got some

Meggan Hayes [01:13:22] of those clips, but I did a few. I don't know the specific one you're talking about, but.

John Dehlin [01:13:26] Yeah, stay tuned for that, everybody. All right, let's go ahead and play the next clip.

Guest [01:13:33] A second thing is it hinders my ability to compassionately care for my patients. So in those Medical emergencies that are the gray zones that are hard. Generally what would happen is the outcome is the same. Baby's not going to make it. I. That's. I know that. I know. Baby's not going to make it. And so now my question is, how do I handle that? Do I transfer them out? Do I deliver them anyway? And if I deliver them anyway, then how do I protect myself and my patients?

Guest 1 [01:14:07] Right.

Guest [01:14:08] And that means I have to build my case.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] All right, Meggan, thoughts there?

Meggan Hayes [01:14:13] Yeah. This reminds me of the way that the church treats abuse. There. There seemed like some parallels for me. She has to, because she's worried that she will. Oh, hold on. My kids are just here. So they are coming in the door. Because she's worried about the way the law could prosecute her. Even when a baby is dying or deceased and she knows it's not going to make it. She can't care for her patient and in the way that she wants to because she has to worry more about the legal ramifications, which is the same thing the church does with abuse. If there is a

Meggan Hayes [01:14:50] bishop who really yearns to give pastoral care to a victim of abuse when he calls the hotline, that's not the advice that he is likely going to get. So it's a similar situation where the rule is making it so the victims are not getting the care that they need.

John Dehlin [01:15:10] Yeah. Yep. All right, let's go ahead and play the last clip.

▶ Video Clip 7

Video Clip 7 [01:15:16] Do you know how you plan to vote?

Video Clip 7 [01:15:18] I was 100 yes for it until the church made their statement for sure. So. And now I'm, I'm quite torn. So. I absolutely believe in prophets. I do believe that they do get revelation. I do believe that they speak out on important things. I don't understand all of the whys that they thought they had to speak out on this one.

Video Clip 7 [01:15:47] I don't know if they understand kind of the nuances, especially with them speaking out to more than one state. I kind of feel like we are opposed to abortion. And so I get that stance for sure. But really, Proposition one for me is a wake up call to the legislature that says we need to do something. This, this can't be sustainable. So, so I, I don't know 100% what I'm going to do because my faith is very important. It is how I guide my life. It's how I teach my children. I do want them to follow prophets. Hopefully when I help primary kids sing the songs, I want them to not think I'm a hypocrite either. Right. I do think There are good reasons for it for sure, but I absolutely, strongly take into consideration what the church has said.

John Dehlin [01:16:41] Holy moly. Meggan, what do you think about that?

Meggan Hayes [01:16:43] Yeah, it just floored me like a very smart, very educated, very credentialed woman who was 100% going to vote yes on Prop 1 because some men without medical backgrounds came out and said no. Now she's torn. Like that is just, it blows my mind that with all of the knowledge that she has, she is possibly allowing a group of men to change her mind when they, she said right there, they do not understand, they likely do not understand the nuances of what she goes through every day. It just shows how much pull, how much influence the church has over the people who really want to be faithful, who are trying to do the right thing because they think that God leads the church.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] Yeah. I'll just say this is an example of just the. I, I hate to say it, but the cultiness of Mormonism, the fact that Heather Pugmire is an obgyn, she knows what's good for women, she knows what's good for her state, she's an expert in medical care and she's like, oh, I think I'm gonna go with the profit, maybe over my decade or more of education and experience as an expert in the field. And I know it's gonna harm women, I know it's gonna harm medical care in my state.

John Dehlin [01:18:19] I know it's gonna make it harder for our state to attract obgyns to take care of women. She probably knows it's going to lead to more abortions and yet she's going to follow the brethren. Like that's, that's, that's cult like behavior, obedience to authority.

John Dehlin [01:18:42] When you know something's wrong, when you're an expert in the field and you know something's wrong and then you're going to do it anyway and obey it. Now we don't know what she's going to do, but she's signaling like she's even torn, like it's ridiculous that she's even unsure.

Guest [01:19:01] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:19:01] And the, the reasoning is that she wants the primary kids to not think she's a hypocrite. It just. How about we teach the primary kids the medical reasons behind anything, you know, age appropriate sexual education and age appropriate biology and age appropriate. I mean, the primary kids are not going to look at you and think that you're a hypocrite because they're not thinking about that. But that's her worry. It just, the whole thing. She's talking about all of these ways that it's impacting her job. She can't give the care that she needs to her patients, she can't hire doctors, and yet she's going to let the brethren override all of that. Her intuition, her knowing, her experience, her schooling. It is incredibly culty and she cares

John Dehlin [01:19:54] about women's medical care because she provides it. And yet she's saying a couple 93 year olds in Salt Lake City who aren't doctors are literally going to govern her vote over what type of medical care is provided to women in a sovereign US State.

John Dehlin [01:20:14] Like it's outrageous. And I hope somebody on the show knows Heather Pugmire. Dr. Pugmire. I hope they'll get this clip to her because my guess is she just can't know basic Mormon Church history. The the Mormon Church is so good at hiding its factual history from its members or making members so terrified to learn its factual history that the members won't even feel safe to to investigate, ask questions and learn. But Earth to Dr. Heather Pugmire.

John Dehlin [01:20:50] Joseph Smith married over 30 women. Joseph Smith married 14 year olds. Joseph Smith lied about his polygamy. Brigham Young lied about polygamy. The Mormon Church kept practicing polygamy after it told the world that it outlawed it in 1890. The Mormon Church, you know, prevented black people from temple access and priesthood access. They supported the Lamanite placement program where Native American children were ripped from their homes and raised with white families and often abused because it was believed that their skin would be turned white and delightsome if they were raised with white Utah Mormon families.

John Dehlin [01:21:36] Spencer W. Kimball issued a proclamation prohibiting oral sex before he rescinded it. The Mormon Church opposed the Equal Rights Amendment like the Church has gotten so many things wrong. The Mormon church implemented the November 2015 policy making a same sex marriage legal. Same sex marriage worse than rape and incest and murder because excommunication was mandatory and the children had to renounce their parents marriage if they wanted to get baptized once they turned 18 and then they rescinded it. Like the Mormon Church has a long history of rescinding bad, unethical, immoral decisions. So you don't have to go against your professional training, your career ethics to follow what barely intellectually functioning Dallin H.

John Dehlin [01:22:36] Oaks and Henry B. Eyring want you to vote on. And by the way, the third member of that First Presidency was likely involved in covering up his own brother's sexual abuse of children, getting that person's record expunged so that he could return to a Bishopric and eventually sexually abused people close to him. Like, you don't have to follow these guys when they're wrong. And they're wrong.

Meggan Hayes [01:23:06] Yes, absolutely. Oh, my word. Their track record. I mean, what side of history does she want to be on when it comes to this? The side that cares for and values women and children and wants them to get the best medical care they can, or the side that is these men who have made so many poor decisions over the years and have often been on the wrong side of history?

John Dehlin [01:23:35] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I hope Heather Pugmire will come on Mormon Stories, and if she doesn't know the church's history, we're happy to teach it to her. I assume she's smarter than me about church history, but she's not showing it with that statement that she may follow the brethren because anybody who knows the church's history is going to realize they don't have to follow the brethren because the brethren are as often to get it wrong as they are to get it right. On moral issues.

Meggan Hayes [01:24:08] Yes. So if she's. If she wants to do what she's teaching the children in primary, do what is right. Let the consequence follow.

John Dehlin [01:24:16] Yeah. All right. Well, I don't know if I should say thankfully or unthankfully, but it's in two weeks or less. This issue will be decided on early November. The vote will happen both in Idaho and Nevada, and we won't have to keep covering the story.

Meggan Hayes [01:24:37] I tend to stay up on those nights and watch the polls because I get so invested.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] Maybe we'll have a special election edition of Mormon News Podcast. Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [01:24:48] Yeah, we'll have to see what happens, what the fallout is.

John Dehlin [01:24:52] All right, well, I. I hope Heather Pugmire will take my invitation and come on Mormon Stories. Something tells me she may not, but. All right, let's go, please. If you know her, please send her this clip and invite her to email me@mormonstoriesgmail.com. maybe I'm wrong. Maybe she knows something I don't. I don't. I don't know. Maybe she's got better explanations. And if so, I think we would all benefit from hearing what those are. All right, what's the next story, Meggan?

Church Leader Discusses Tithing and Well-Being

Meggan Hayes [01:25:18] This is an article that came out so in the past general. The last general conference, they talked about tithing three different times. So it's. Along with gambling, it's been going through the news cycle. So C.D. cunningham wrote an article answering tough questions about tithing. And so I thought we would just go over a few of the things that he Attempted to answer. And I'm using attempted because I, I feel like he didn't do the best job. But tithing was in general conference three times, so I figured we should just give it a short discussion here.

John Dehlin [01:25:53] All right, let's do it.

Meggan Hayes [01:25:56] So, on tithing and well being, this is a quote from his article. I have seen research summaries linking tithing with well being. Paying tithing requires people to look at how much they make and consider how they are spending it. Those who pay tithing on average have lower debt, lower stress levels, better health and longer lives. They feel more grateful, have greater self worth and are happier. How do you feel about that, John? Because I can tell you what my first reaction was.

John Dehlin [01:26:24] I want to hear, I want to hear yours first. Always.

Meggan Hayes [01:26:26] I was like, where did he get this information? Who says that those who pay tithing on average have lower debt? So of course I clicked on the link in the article and I went to the study that he referenced which actually took me to an LDS Living article. And the LDS Living article didn't describe the study well either. If you go to the next slide, this is what the study actually found.

John Dehlin [01:26:52] Those who pay tithing on average have lower debt, lower stress levels. I don't believe that. I don't believe lower stress levels.

Meggan Hayes [01:26:59] I don't either.

John Dehlin [01:27:00] Better health. I mean, the lower debt thing could be correlation, not causation because Mormons are counseled to stay out of debt. So if Mormons are staying out of debt because they're counseled to and they're paying tithing because they're commanded to in the temple, I could see there being correlation there. But any, any, you know, research methods 101 student in college is going to know that correlation isn't causation. They're going to have better health because they're not smoking and doing drugs and alcohol, presumably. Presumably.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] And so again, that's going to be correlation, not causation. And longer lives. Yeah. My, my quick reaction. Meggan, not to steal your thunder, I want to read the next slide. But those are all correlational. If Mormons because of the word of wisdom are going to have, you know, better health, then yeah, people who pay their tithing who are Mormon are going to have better health. But that's correlation. It's not because they're paying tithing that they have those attributes. That's my analysis. Let's hear yours.

Meggan Hayes [01:28:06] So I went to the LDS Living article which then linked me to the research that he was, I think, referring to since he linked to it. And this is what the research actually shows, studies, they were studies of generosity. They were not studies about LDS tithing. That's the first thing to understand.

Meggan Hayes [01:28:24] They said, yeah, financial prosperity, giving and income may be associated. No proof that tithing lowers debt or increases income. So people who give more have more. Which is what I gathered from that. The next one was happiness. Some studies found short term happiness benefits from spending on others, not specifically paying tithing.

Meggan Hayes [01:28:47] Social connection giving within close relationships and communities can support well being. Again, it was not a study about LDS tithing. The next one is stress and health. A lab study measured cortisol during a giving game. It did not test tithing long term health or lifespan. And children, toddlers enjoyed sharing treats. The study did not examine childhood tithing. The bottom line, these studies do not establish that LDS tithe pay. Theirs have, have less debt, better health or longer lives.

Guest 1 [01:29:20] Hmm.

John Dehlin [01:29:22] So it's basically telling you, is that your bottom line or is that actually in the article?

Meggan Hayes [01:29:27] No, that was the. When I went through the study. So he's saying these things. And when I was an active believing Mormon, when I read stuff written by other active believing Mormons, if I had gone to Public Square magazine or LDS Living or LDS Daily, I would have just taken everything they said at face value. But now I don't do that. I actually click on the study and I look through the findings and more often than not, what they say the study shows and what it actually shows are two different things. So while there are certainly benefits to tithing, while there are certainly benefits to spending money on other people, living a little more modestly and giving a little bit more, obviously. But the study he referenced had nothing to do with tithing specifically.

John Dehlin [01:30:11] Yeah, yeah, it's bad science. It's bad reporting on science for sure. All right, let's go to the next slide.

Meggan Hayes [01:30:18] So something else he said. This does not mean God is a vending machine. You know the idea that you put in tithing and you get out blessings.

Guest 3 [01:30:25] Blessings.

Meggan Hayes [01:30:27] But biblical prophets have promised that tithing brings blessings. I believe it does. And the data seems to suggest the same. So he's still referring to that earlier data that did not suggest anything about tithing. But then I have a picture there of a blessings tithing vending machine where you insert the tithing and the blessings that he's claiming come out from this study. Lower debt, less stress, better health, longer lives, self worth and more happiness. So he's saying it does not mean that God is a vending machine. But he's. He basically just already said that God is a vending machine. Because if you put in the tithing, you get the blessings, which is what he said, the study said, but it didn't.

Meggan Hayes [01:31:08] So the claim is that tithing brings measurable benefits. But the cited research examines generosity and charitable giving, not these outcomes among lds tithe bather, tithe payers. So I just. The idea gets thrown around so often that it's not transactional, but I don't know. John, describe to me how that's not transactional. If you put in tithing, you get blessings out.

John Dehlin [01:31:33] I mean, that's how I was always taught as a Mormon. I was taught it's fire insurance that people, some quote would be read that people who don't pay their tithing would be burned in the second coming of Jesus. So I was always told, it's fire insurance. And I was always told the story of, like, you know, we. We were out of money. It was the end of the month, and I had a bill to pay, and it was either pay my tithing or pay the bill. And I decided to. To pay my tithing and not pay the bill. And then I got some big fat check or some mysterious 3D fight gave. Gave us a bunch of mysterious money, and I ended up profiting from paying my tithing. Those are the stories that I heard growing up.

Meggan Hayes [01:32:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:18] Did you hear that?

Meggan Hayes [01:32:19] Yeah. Which is transactional. Like, if you do this, this is what will happen. Like, the blessings will be so big that you can't receive them. I mean, do they get out of that by saying that, well, if they come in the next life, then it's not transactional. I think this is CD Cunningham's response to they talked about tithing in conference. And people are like, the church has billions of dollars. Why do we need to pay tithing? And this is him trying to explain why they still need to pay.

John Dehlin [01:32:49] Yeah, let's. Let's keep going. And then I've got a couple thoughts. Is this the next slide?

Meggan Hayes [01:32:55] Yes. So he said, teaching people not to pay tithing when they are currently struggling financially would ultimately be a great disservice to them, which is exactly what I did. And I tell you what, if I had bought food for my kids instead of paying tithing, that would have been great. So then my thoughts were, someone who decides to feed their children, pay their electric bill, or purchase medication instead of paying tithing may be making a responsible financial decision. I would argue that that is a responsible financial decision. But CD Cunningham's framing suggests that encouraging that decision would ultimately harm them.

Meggan Hayes [01:33:35] Is this because they could lose their temple recommend for opting to feed their children. Like, a lot of times members don't push these analogies or these thought processes any further than they're willing to go. Right. They want to stay in this space where someone paid their tithing and they got a blessing. But what about all the people who paid their tithing and then just didn't have food, couldn't put gas in their car, couldn't buy clothes for their children, couldn't pay the heat bill?

John Dehlin [01:34:05] Yeah. And there's plenty of lower SES Mormons in the United States. But this even gets more extreme when we're talking, you know, Uruguay and. And, you know, Uganda, right?

Meggan Hayes [01:34:19] Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, they'll tell stories in conference about the general authority who goes there. And he's driving down the street and he sees the people working and he's like, are they working so that they can have food for tomorrow? And the drivers like, no, they're working so they can eat tonight, so they can bring home food to their families tonight while he's in this General authorities in his fancy car with his driver. And he's sad. I mean, that's the end of the story. And the. And these are members who he went to church with that morning, who he saw walk 45 minutes to church.

John Dehlin [01:34:55] Well, one thing you can say for this guy, he's got good, you know, good photos. You know, he's got good photos of his.

Guest 4 [01:35:02] I know.

Meggan Hayes [01:35:02] And these are not. I didn't take a video and get stills like, these are photos that he put online on purpose.

Guest 3 [01:35:08] So this.

Meggan Hayes [01:35:08] This was his choice. So he then says the church's formal tithing practices avoid high pressure fundraising tactics. We don't pass around a collection plate. And I just thought that was absurd because the pressure that is put on people to pay tithing is enormous, despite there not being a collection plate. So even if the pressure isn't public, even if you're not sitting next to someone and they pass you the plate and then they're looking at you, like, put money on it, how would. It's still pressure. There's still plenty of pressure.

John Dehlin [01:35:41] You can go ahead.

Guest 3 [01:35:43] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:35:43] I mean, if you're. If your child's getting married and you didn't pay tithing so you can't go to their wedding, that's a pretty public time when people are going to know you didn't pay your tithing or whatever it was.

John Dehlin [01:35:55] Right?

Meggan Hayes [01:35:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] Yeah. Your nephew, your niece, your aunt, your uncle, whoever.

Meggan Hayes [01:36:01] Yeah. And I went to some other churches after I stopped Going to Mormonism, when they passed her on the plate, like, I don't think anyone really felt pressure. If you put stuff in. Great. And if you didn't, you just passed it along. Nobody was looking around at each other. I didn't feel pressure. So, I mean, maybe there are congregations where that's the case, but I didn't feel pressure when I was in a church with a collection plate. Not everybody put money in. Those who could, did.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] Yeah. At the other. Other churches.

Guest [01:36:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:31] Yeah. And ward temple night. Don't forget ward temple night. All the adults are going to the temple. And you can't, you know, because you don't pay your tithing. And so everybody knows at. At best you're not paying tithing. At worst, you're cheating on your spouse or in a porn or something like that.

Meggan Hayes [01:36:47] Right. And that's where their mind's gonna head. I mean, I. I know I had those conversations on the sly with people. It's totally inappropriate. Like, did you see so and so didn't take the sacrament? Or did you see so and so said they couldn't say a prayer today at church? Plenty of public shaming in the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] That's a pressure.

Meggan Hayes [01:37:07] Okay, so then he gets the question. He says he gets the question, why does the church spend money on beautiful temples when it could help people who are suffering? And his answer? I believe there is real value in devoting material resources to worship and religious life. Places of worship can help form communities whose commitments include caring for others. That does not mean every building expense is automatically justified. Stewardship still requires careful choices. And what I wish he would have done has been very specific, which is what they have a hard time doing. Like, which temple expenditure is not justified? Tell us, please, C.D. cunningham, because how much is too much? How does the church weigh temple costs against immediate human suffering? Like, could we still go to a building that was much more modest and receive an endowment of power, which is what the temple is for. Right.

John Dehlin [01:38:06] Like Brigham Young did temple ordinances out in the river. Like they did baptisms for the dead, literally in a river.

Guest 2 [01:38:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:14] We don't need ten hundred million dollars temples.

Meggan Hayes [01:38:18] Yeah, I don't think so. And. And his argument that it makes community, who makes and that community then fosters more giving. I don't feel like a temple is necessary in that equation. Honestly, when you go in the temple, you can't even really talk to each other.

John Dehlin [01:38:32] Yeah, they're like.

Guest 3 [01:38:37] Right.

Meggan Hayes [01:38:38] Like there's always just the old lady who's trying to unwrap her cough drop. For 30 minutes because the crinkling sound is distracting everybody.

John Dehlin [01:38:46] It's been too long since I've been in the temple, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [01:38:50] You know, I haven't been in a long time either. But it's not a place to me that fostered community. It had to kind of be a one on one. Like it's supposed to be between you and the Lord because you can't talk to other people when you're in there. You're not having a potluck in the temple. And the dead people who you're doing work for. I wasn't talking to them. Maybe other people are.

John Dehlin [01:39:11] Yeah. All right, last clip. Last, last slide for this story.

Tithing, Ensign Peak, and Church Wealth

Meggan Hayes [01:39:16] Yeah. So he asked, how do you understand the mistakes acknowledged in the securities and Exchange Commission episode? Which. It was interesting to me that he would even broach this subject.

John Dehlin [01:39:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:39:26] His answer, the complexity of securities reporting is significant and likely play.

Guest 2 [01:39:31] I know.

Meggan Hayes [01:39:32] And likely plays a major role in what occurred. But it does not by itself answer the concerns raised by those findings. The problem that I see, in that answer, the SEC found Ensign. Oh, no. This is the problem. The SEC found Ensign Peak leadership knew the reporting requirements and church leadership approved the structure. The filings obscured the portfolio for more than two decades. So the guy who ran what Roger Clark, who ran Ensign Peak, is. Runs.

Guest 4 [01:40:02] Runs.

Meggan Hayes [01:40:03] Is a fully competent investment advisor who understood what needed to be done. And the filings say that. So it's not because it's complex. I mean, it might be complex to CD Cunningham because he is not a fully competent financial advisor, but it's not because it was complex. It's because they made a decision to obscure the money. Period. They made the choice. End of story. That's it.

John Dehlin [01:40:25] They created fake shell companies with fake names, fake directors of the fake shell companies that were all hidden. There was no lack of understanding of securities regulations. There was actually a sophisticated understanding of securities regulations and an intentional effort to circumvent the regulations at the overriding the council of lawyers and securities professionals. Like the opposite is true. It reminds me of. You probably don't remember. Phil Hartman was, was a, was one of the comedians on Saturday Night Live a long, long time ago. He was also one of the, the voices on the Simpsons. And he had a character he'd play on Saturday Night Live called Unfrozen Caveman lawyer.

John Dehlin [01:41:18] And he would play a lawyer that always used the fact that he was a caveman to, to, to. To play dumb with the, with the, with the, with the judge and the jury say, my, my primitive Caveman mind can't comprehend such difficult things. You know, that's, that's so dumb. The church, the church can hire the best lawyers and the best professionals and they do. You know, that's just so, so gross.

Meggan Hayes [01:41:49] Right. So do you feel better about the church asking for tithing from the people who can't buy food? John, after.

John Dehlin [01:41:57] I mean, what. Let me ask you this, Meggan. So the church leaders know they're richer than Heavenly Father at this point. They know they don't need the members money anymore. That literally just the interest off of the 300 billion in assets funds, the annual operating budget of the church. The leaders know that. So why do they continue to tighten the tithing vice grips on the members and specifically the poor members. What, what do you think is going through their mind?

Meggan Hayes [01:42:35] I think some of them literally believe that it is what God wants. Like I. There are some, especially the older ones, who I think are sincere, very sincere believers and they really do think that God requires it of the people, regardless of their financial situation. I think there are likely also some who understand that people who pay tithing are more likely to be invested in other ways. If they can push them far enough to give up 10% of their income, there's a lot that they can get them to do.

John Dehlin [01:43:13] Yeah, I'll have to say, like, just like we're asking for people to donate to this podcast, I think people should pay for things they value, they get value from. So I'm actually not opposed to the existence of tithing as long as there's full informed consent on where the money's going.

John Dehlin [01:43:34] And I think there should be transparency in reporting. I don't know why I've said this before, why religions get a pass on financial transparency regarding their expenditures, but nonprofits, 501c3s like the Open Storage foundation, we have to file a public 990. I don't know why they get, you know, that exception, but I have no problem when there's full transparency.

John Dehlin [01:44:05] You know, the church asking its members to pay and I think psychologically it's smart to require members to pay. People value what they pay for. I know that as a therapist, if I charged my clients, they would take therapy more seriously than if I gave the therapy away. If you charge someone to come to an event, they're more likely to show up than if you gave the ticket away for free.

John Dehlin [01:44:37] So I understand the psychology of giving. I don't begrudge the church for that. But I do think it's just abusive to pressure super poor people to pay when they can't afford food or clothes. And I do think the church should be transparent in its finances. And most of all, the church needs to atone for its violation of ethics laws and SEC laws and IRS laws. And it's just blatant deception. We know that the church hid its wealth from the membership because it was worried they would pay less money if the members knew how much wealth the church had. That's why they broke the law and violated the SEC and the IRS rulings. And that's just bad. And every member should know this, and the church should apologize for it, which they haven't.

Guest 2 [01:45:34] No.

Meggan Hayes [01:45:34] And that's why members can still write articles like this, because the church has left it out there for them to interpret in ways to that make them feel good, because they won't be honest about what they did. So C.D. cunningham can say, oh, they're probably just confused because he wants it to work. He wants to find the faithful answer.

John Dehlin [01:45:53] Yeah, well, that's. That's an important story. Kind of disturbing. I think it was. I think it was Joseph F. Smith, the prophet, that said, at some point the church will be so wealthy it won't need its members tithing if we, you know, just like that doctor who said, oh, we got to believe our prophets and revelators. How about believe that? How about believe that statement from Joseph F. Smith? How about we hold our prophets accountable and say, do you really need our money? Do you really need the widow's might? Now, Mormon prophets, seers, and revelators. Is 400 billion enough? Is 500 billion enough? Is a trillion enough? At what point can. Can we have that. That one prophecy come true from. From a Mormon prophet?

Guest 2 [01:46:46] Right.

Meggan Hayes [01:46:46] Well, then they could hold it up as a prophecy that was fulfilled.

John Dehlin [01:46:51] One of the very few. All right, Gene. My friend Gene wants some credit. So Gene's basically saying, was I the first to tell you that RFM's 10th anniversary was October 23rd? By the way, thanks for having Meggan on Mormon News and also all you do. Meggan. Yeah, Gene, you were one of the people to tell me RFM was having a 10th anniversary. Other people did as well. Gene, you are always a caring, thoughtful supporter of Mormon influencers and of open Mormon discourse and dialogue. So whether or not you were the first, Gene, thank you for advocating on RFM's behalf. And Gene, thanks for all you do to support, you know, Mormon discourse. And by the way, Gene, why did you pay $6.66?

Meggan Hayes [01:47:47] That was unintentional. It's complex. Making a donation

John Dehlin [01:47:52] touche Meggan. Touche. All right, well, now we get to my favorite story of the week. For those of you who don't know, Soft White Underbelly is a channel on YouTube with millions of subscribers. It's one of the best YouTube channels out there.

Soft White Underbelly Features a Mormon Story

John Dehlin [01:48:09] For a long, long time they covered all sorts of stories. But not Mormons, not Latter Day Saints. Sex workers telling their stories, drug dealers telling their stories, people with disabilities telling their stories. Victims of all sorts of abuse.

John Dehlin [01:48:27] They just raw, vulnerable stories. And recently, my dear friend Bo Euler, Bishop Bo was brought on to Soft White Underbelly. He told his story of being a Mormon bishop, being abused as a Mormon boy, becoming a Mormon bishop, having a member who was an abuser and being counseled by the church hotline to not turn that abusive church member into the police. And of course, Bo was threatened with excommunication for, for going on Soft White Underbelly.

John Dehlin [01:49:12] And then later, um, there, there's been a one, at least one other Mormon appear on Soft White Underbelly. But it appears as though Soft White Underbelly is doing a series on Mormons. And our own Julia Diazevedo, her Soft White Underbelly episode was released this week. So take it away, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [01:49:32] So for the one person out there who doesn't know who Julie de Azevedo is, she is a licensed clinical social worker, therapist, author and musician with more than 30 years of experience experience counseling women, couples and families. She grew up Mormon in Southern California, the daughter of well known LDS composer Lex de Azevedo. She built a successful career in LDS music, releasing 10 solo albums before becoming widely known for her work in mental health. She holds a PhD in marriage and family therapy and a master's degree in social work. She's the founder of Wasatch Family Therapy in Utah and the author of the Burnout Care and the Assertiveness Guide for Women.

Meggan Hayes [01:50:11] And I would consider her a friend. I think she is amazing. So when I saw that she went on here, I was so excited. I, I think everyone should go listen to the entire interview. She is a force to be reckoned with. She's just so wise and so caring.

Meggan Hayes [01:50:29] So I couldn't put on the entire interview, which was sad. But we will watch a few clips and then there will be some responses that Latter Daily Saints made to the clips that we can also discuss.

John Dehlin [01:50:43] Yeah, it's absolutely. Julie's great. She's a great advocate for women. She's a great advocate for working moms and just a great advocate for mental health and Mormon women's Mental health specifically. And she's just a great person of high integrity. I don't know if you know this, Meggan.

John Dehlin [01:51:03] I used to hold faith crisis retreats. So from about 2014 to like right before COVID I would hold quarterly faith crisis retreats and monthly faith crisis workshops all around the country. And sometimes I would hold mixed faith marriage retreats for couples in mixed faith marriages. And I did this before and after I was excommunicated. But while Julie Hanks was a faithful believing attending Mormon woman, she would co lead mixed faith marriage retreats with me after I was excommunicated. That's how much courage and conviction and integrity that woman had is she cared enough about mental health and marriages that she would partner with, you know, an apostate and co lead those groups. Is that kind of cool?

Meggan Hayes [01:52:04] It is very cool. Like she has not been afraid to just help people in need, despite what it could look like. Despite the fact that active believing members have been upset at her for doing stuff like that. She sees people in need and if she can help, she will go there. Yeah, yeah. She doesn't worry that people are going to be upset with her about that. She just wants to help people.

John Dehlin [01:52:28] I want to say she's fearless, but the truth is she probably experiences fear like all of us. But she, she's courageous because she does the, the courageous thing, even if she feels fear.

Guest [01:52:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:52:40] Anyway, yeah, so of course within, you know, 24 hours or less, Latter Daily Saints decides they're going to cover the story. You know, the, the YouTubers, the, the YouTuber Mormon apologists like the Paul Brothers, like Jacob Hansen, like Ward Radio, they, they just get all up at arms when any Mormon goes on any, you know, Gentile YouTube channel. And this was no exception. So, but I, I, I, I can't wait to talk about this because I, I really thought it was an important conversation. So tell us where you want to go next, Meggan.

Julie de Azevedo Hanks and Faith Transition Discussion

Meggan Hayes [01:53:20] So we could go to the first clip. It's going to be from, it's going to be Julie speaking and then we'll listen to the rebuttal from Maddy Packer, who is one of the ones that responds.

John Dehlin [01:53:31] Okay.

Guest 1 [01:53:32] Women in general.

Guest 2 [01:53:33] Oh yeah, yeah. They are not equal in organizational power. They are equal in value. Which kind of sounds like a contradiction and kind of is a contradiction. The Mormon Church has a complementarian view of gender roles, which is men are biologically naturally suited to be providers and protectors and head of the family. Women are to be nurturers and take care of the children. And each one is Equally valued, supposedly. But what happens is in the priesthood, in the LDS Church, all men, starting at age boys 11, get ordained to the priesthood, but girls do not. So I've heard people say, like, my 11 year old son has more organizational power than I do because women are not ordained to the priesthood.

John Dehlin [01:54:41] All right, Meggan, what are your thoughts on that?

Meggan Hayes [01:54:44] I love her ability to hold the nuance. Right. She's not trying to just bash the church and say the church hates women. And she actually says, in the church, men and women have equal value because I think the church really believes that. And then simultaneously women do not get the final say.

Meggan Hayes [01:55:08] And I think in the church, both of those things are true if you really hold someone to their beliefs. I don't know. A lot of my dad, my brothers, even my husband, we were members. They weren't looking at me and saying, you're less valuable. They believed women had a lot of value and somehow the priesthood still trumps that. So for her to be able to describe that, I, I love how she can hold that nuance, describe the nuance and talk about the church in a way that is just very.

Meggan Hayes [01:55:42] It's. She's not trying to bash it. She's not trying to make the church look bad. She's just saying, this is what I. This is what I see. This is what I experienced.

John Dehlin [01:55:50] Yeah. Yeah. I thought she was very respectful, very fair, very classy. Yeah. And. And spot on. So should we play the next clip?

Guest [01:56:03] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:56:03] This one's going to be Maddie Packer responding to that section.

John Dehlin [01:56:07] And Maddie Packer is a mom, Mormon mom, who's an Instagrammer who basically goes after. Mostly goes after Mormon women like Haley Rawl, of, of Girls Camp and Julie Hanks, Julie Dazavedo. Has she come after you yet?

Meggan Hayes [01:56:23] She hasn't. I guess we're on the horizon for her.

John Dehlin [01:56:28] You'll know you've made it, Meggan, when, When Maddie Packer comes after you. Okay, I'll give you that challenge. I thought I'm throwing down the gauntlet.

Meggan Hayes [01:56:37] Okay, I'm waiting. I'm not going to say I'm excited. I'll wait for that.

John Dehlin [01:56:43] All right, well, let's see what Mattie Packer has to say.

▶ Video Clip 8

Video Clip 8 [01:56:47] I think that it's interesting how sometimes we might. I think what a lot, like what happens with people like Julie Hanks too, is they get to a point in their life where they maybe change their mind about what they believe and they, I think, can sometimes re.

Video Clip 8 [01:57:02] Like put those ideas and thoughts back into the past that maybe weren't Truly there. And I don't want to speak for Julie Hanks, but I do feel like that happens quite often where it's like, it might not have truly been that way, or you didn't feel that way in the moment growing up, but because you've adopted this new framework now, you kind of have to play it back into your life growing up and say, oh, yeah, I actually was oppressed, and I actually, like, the men in my life, really did have power over me that I couldn't escape. And, like, I think it's disingenuous. I think if you ask most faithful members of the church, they would.

Video Clip 8 [01:57:34] They'd agree with me and say that they never experienced this. This, like, this feeling of being in a position of no power for your life.

John Dehlin [01:57:45] Oh, my gosh, I want to flip a table. But, Meggan, I want to hear what you have to say first.

Meggan Hayes [01:57:51] I know it's. She's so dismissive of Julie's lived experience. Like, how can you, in all seriousness, look at someone and say, I know you said you experienced that, but you didn't. I don't know how she does that, because I don't want to say that about her experience. I don't want to say, maddie, you hate the church, and you're really just oppressed, because that's not how Maddie feels. You know, when.

Meggan Hayes [01:58:18] So Donnie and I separated for a time. When? After we left the church. And we were trying to decide if our marriage was based on us being compatible or if it was based on the church. You know, that was a lot of it, and that was really hard for our kids. It was really good for Donnie and I's marriage. It was really hard for our kids. And I still have children who struggle with that period of time. And it would be so ridiculous, harmful for me to say, because that period of time was good for my marriage. It couldn't have been hard for you.

Meggan Hayes [01:58:54] So just because something is good for Maddie doesn't mean that it worked for Julie de Azevedo. It just there. Everyone can have a different experience, and telling someone their reality is not their reality is just not helpful. You can both be in the exact same room and experience something differently. And until you can leave space for someone else's perception, someone else's reality, you can't have empathy for them. You can't put yourself in their shoes.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:25] And there just seems to be a huge lack of that. Like, if the church is working for Maddie, she says it's working for her, then that's awesome. But if Julie goes on a Very public platform and says, it didn't work for me. This is what the structure looks like.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:43] I don't know how Maddie finds a place where she can say, that's just Julie changing her mind, and that's not really what the church looked like. And maybe, maybe Maddie hasn't gone back and listened to the talks from the 80s and 90s about how mothers are to stay home and that it's what God wants. If you don't stay home as a mother, you are going against what God wants.

John Dehlin [02:00:07] Yeah. Well said. Yeah, I. I am gonna just always give these people the benefit of the doubt that they're intelligent people and that they're kind people in their daily lives. I don't know, of course, but I'm just gonna. I'm gonna give Maddie Packer some unsolicited advice.

John Dehlin [02:00:29] Maddie Packer, you come across as unkind. You come across as uncharitable. You come across as unchristlike to thoughtful, compassionate, wise people. You're not doing yourself or your church any favors when you are dismissive of women's experiences. You complain all the time that ex Mormon influencers are dismissive of believing Mormon women's lived experiences. And then you turn around and use such uncharitable language as, for example, she changed her mind.

John Dehlin [02:01:20] So Julie Hanks, you know, didn't learn church history that was kept from her. She didn't have such bad experiences that it made her rethink her membership. She just, like according to Maddie Packer, doesn't matter what Julie says the reasons are she left. Maddie Packer has decided that regardless of Julie Dazevedo's lived experience and what she says, Maddie Packer has decided that Julie d' Azevedo just changed her mind, maybe wasn't committed enough, maybe didn't believe to begin with or didn't care enough about her covenants that she just thought, ah, I'm going to change my mind about the church. So that's the way she frames it. She changed her mind.

John Dehlin [02:02:08] And then she's going to say, not going to say, oh, oh, Julie, what was your experience? What was your lived experience as a Mormon woman? What were you taught growing up? Come on my podcast and tell me what you were taught. Tell me how you were treated when you told people you were going to grad school. Tell me how you were treated when you told people you were going to try and have babies and be a professional mom 30 years ago. Maddie Packer, you know, when you were, I don't know, how old.

John Dehlin [02:02:37] Don't ask Julie what her actual experience was decide that she changed her mind, and then once she changed her mind, put thoughts back into the past to fabricate and make up what she describes as her lived experience. Because that's respecting women. That's respecting women's lived experiences to inject the speculation that they're changing their mind and intentionally putting back into their story.

John Dehlin [02:03:11] Disingenuously is the word you used. In other words, lying to rewrite their story so that then they could deceive people about what their lived experience actually was. That's. That's what Maddie is saying in this quote. And I don't even think she knows what the word disingenuous means. So Maddie, like, maybe you should go to graduate school and learn what words mean. Disingenuous is when. Is. Is when you are being insincere. It's when you're saying things that are untrue and you know that they're untrue. That's what disingenuous means.

John Dehlin [02:03:57] So when Julie, even if Julie were, you know, had a different experience than you, even if you don't like the way she's characterizing her experience, even if you and other faithful Mormon women have had great experiences in the church, disingenuous is not the word to describe what Julie Hanks just shared. She shared her lived experience with the world.

John Dehlin [02:04:25] So learn what words mean before you use them, because that was not the appropriate use of the word disingenuous. And again, your mischaracterizations and judgments of Julia d' Azevedo's lived experience are gross. They're unchristlike, they're unkind, and they're not doing you or your church any favors. I promise you, when your mouth is moving. Mattie Packer, People who don't like the church are winning.

Meggan Hayes [02:05:04] Yes, it. It's so harmful and mean. It's just mean to look at God, someone as brave and empathetic and who has the amount of integrity that Julie de Azevedo has. There are people who could certainly go on soft white underbelly and say terrible things about the church, but Julia de Azevedo is not one of those people.

Meggan Hayes [02:05:33] She's just going to talk about what she's seen. And it just baffles me that Maddie can't look at her with. As a human. It's like she's dehumanized her to the point where she can say those things about her.

Meggan Hayes [02:05:47] Julie is a person with her own lived experience. And I would dare say that Julie has an amount of respect for Maddie, that Maddie does not return where Julie. Yeah, where Julie could talk about Maddie's experience from the point of view of her training and say, you know, maybe some of these, you know, and give her a lot of empathy and a lot of benefit of the doubt, and she's not getting that in return.

John Dehlin [02:06:14] Never in a million years would Julie Diazevedo make a comment about Maddie's professed lived experience and say, Maddie doesn't enjoy being a Mormon mom. She injects that into her story for X, Y or Z reason. She's being disingenuous when she says that she enjoys being a Mormon mom. Never in a million years would Julia Diazevedo make such a gross and unkind and unchristlike characterization of something Maddie Packer says.

Meggan Hayes [02:06:55] No.

Guest [02:06:55] No. Because that's.

John Dehlin [02:06:56] Keep talking. Keep talking, Maddie Packer, please. Those who hate the church are just saying, talk more, Maddie Packer. Talk more.

Meggan Hayes [02:07:06] Yeah. Because if this is what you will see if you go to church, if that's how you will be treated, then that's not a place. There's a lot of people who won't want to be there.

John Dehlin [02:07:17] Maddie Packer is proving Julie's point.

Meggan Hayes [02:07:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:24] Because she's speaking ill of somebody who's a working mom who is sharing her lived experience, and she's being gaslit on the Internet and denigrated and her character is being maligned as disingenuous by a Mormon woman. Keep talking, Maddie Packer, please.

Meggan Hayes [02:07:46] Yeah, it does. I. I get fired up, too, listening to the entire thing with Latter Daily Saints. I might have texted Colby Reddish and said, Maddie is one who really puts me on edge.

John Dehlin [02:08:00] Yeah.

Guest 1 [02:08:01] People.

John Dehlin [02:08:02] You know, I. I think if somebody really wants to harm the church, they should donate to Latter Daily Saints podcast and donate to Maddie Packer's Venmo fund. Pay these faithful Mormon influencers to keep talking if you want to hurt the church. Support Latter Daily Saints and Maddie Packer.

Meggan Hayes [02:08:25] Yeah, I. I don't. I don't want to be in. In constant association with someone who can't sit back and tolerate someone else's lived experience. It makes her so uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [02:08:40] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:08:40] She cannot tolerate that someone else had a bad experience where she had a good one.

John Dehlin [02:08:45] It's disgusting.

Guest 2 [02:08:47] And.

John Dehlin [02:08:47] And there are ex Mormon. There are ex Mormon creators that. That can be unkind to the lived experience of faithful Mormon women. I don't think I'm one. I don't think you're one. And I know for sure, doctor, you know, Julie Dazavedo is not one. So I can see why Maddie sometimes gets frustrated at Some, you know, ex Mormon influencers. But not Julie, right? Not Julie.

Meggan Hayes [02:09:18] Not. I know, not Julie. I mean, I admit I struggle when I see women who are in the church and they're saying, it's wonderful. I've never had less power because I remember what it felt like to think those things.

Meggan Hayes [02:09:34] I said the same things I said I was happy when I was really struggling. But again, that's not everybody's experience. I have to allow room if I want to be an empathetic person for people who are still in the church who say they're happy. I have to allow room for that to be true. And it is so hard for me. It's so hard for me because I'm like. But I said the same thing, and I was lying to myself, and I was depressed and I was struggling, and being at home with six kids and the oldest was 10, like, that was really hard. And I was incredibly lonely, and my marriage was hard, and all of those things were happening.

Meggan Hayes [02:10:13] And I was going to church and I was putting on a smile and I was telling everyone that motherhood was the most fulfilling thing I had ever done. Which it is, very fulfilling. It's also incredibly difficult. So I want to look at them and be like, but are you sure?

Meggan Hayes [02:10:30] But if I go back to the me from 10 years ago, if someone had said that to me, I would have been, like, I would have been offended. Yes, I'm sure. This is all I've ever been told that I should do. And I am killing it. I'm doing so good. Right. But now I can just see that that wasn't true for me.

Meggan Hayes [02:10:47] And so it is hard for me when people say they're happy, because I want to just be like, are you really sure? But it doesn't do any good. Their reality right now is their reality. And if I can't meet them there, I can't meet them at all.

John Dehlin [02:11:04] Yeah. And I'll just say, my wife, Margi, we had four kids. Being a mom is super hard. So I always felt like, of the two of us, me working at Microsoft or MIT or whatever, her staying home with four kids, I always felt like she had the harder job. And I don't say that out of some benevolent sort of thing, like, objectively, harder job. She calls me Kid X, pooped on the floor, and Kid Y ate it. You know, like, come home, I'm going crazy. Like, I never had to call her from work and say, come rescue me at work.

John Dehlin [02:11:47] Like, it's hard to be a mom. And having said that, my My mom was a stay at home mom. My wife was a stay at home wife. They loved so much about it and they did a great job. And I have deep respect for, for what they did. And I have deep respect for women who choose to be stay at home moms. I don't think I, I have only respect for them.

John Dehlin [02:12:12] But you know, Maddie Packer, you are not a pro woman in the way that you denigrate people like Julia d' Azevedo from sharing her experiences. You're pro patriarchy and anti woman when you dismiss a woman's lived experience and call her disingenuous and accuse her of making up a false memory and lying to people about it. You're not pro woman when you do that.

Meggan Hayes [02:12:46] No, no. Because to be pro woman, you have to acknowledge the experiences of all women

John Dehlin [02:12:52] and just be respectful and kind. And that's mean. It's gross and it's mean. All right, let's go to the next clip.

Meggan Hayes [02:13:00] Okay, we'll go back to Julie.

Guest 2 [02:13:03] And I've noticed a. An underdeveloped sense of self that's kind of like, I think, like the hub of the wheel. And then there are these spokes of other things that kind of come out from that, but one of them is just not knowing themselves. Right. Like I've. I ask women in my therapy office, what, what do you want for your life? And they look at me like I can ask that because women are taught to serve their families and serve the community.

Guest 2 [02:13:37] And so there isn't a lot of encouragement for internal introspection. And that creates a lot of problems for some women. Now other women thrive in the church and in the culture. And I remember a former sister in law of mine, I was jealous of her because she lived to go to soccer games and take care of her kids and make meals and have parties. And I thought something was wrong with me because I wanted more than that. And not that that's not enough, but for me, I wanted that. I wanted a family, I wanted kids, and I wanted to be a performing songwriter and become a therapist.

Guest 2 [02:14:26] And so I was trying to kind of weave this life together, but I hadn't seen anybody do it. I haven't. I feel like I had to kind of figure it out.

John Dehlin [02:14:37] Okay, what are your thoughts on that, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:14:40] Oh, man. She says so many things that resonate with me. First of all, not knowing. I did not know for a very long time.

Guest 4 [02:14:48] It.

Meggan Hayes [02:14:48] I was well into adulthood, probably almost 40, when I figured out that I was a person separate from everyone else. And I that might just sound weird or silly, but I honestly did not know that I could ask myself, what do I want?

Meggan Hayes [02:15:09] When. When Donnie and I got married, I didn't know how to order food at a restaurant because I had never even thought about doing that. I didn't know how to do it. I'd be like, well, just get me something. He's like, no, well, what do you want?

Meggan Hayes [02:15:23] Like, I don't know. When I was at home, I just had to eat whatever my parents put on the table. I didn't. I never got a choice whether or not I wanted to eat that. It's like the simplest decisions were so hard for me to make because as a woman in the church, it was laid out for me. I listened to the male leaders, I do what they say and that's it. I live happily ever after. And then, you know, I have my dad who's the patriarch over me, and then I get married and I have a husband who's the patriarch over me. And then like she said in the previous clip, as soon as my, you know, son turns 12, he has more power in the church than I do.

Meggan Hayes [02:16:02] And one of the most powerful things that I did when I started going to therapy and trying to feel like a person was ask myself, what is it that I want? And it had to start super small. It's like, what socks do I want to wear today? Instead of just grabbing, you know, like actually looking at my choices and deciding which socks to put on was a huge deal.

Meggan Hayes [02:16:30] And I think she sees, I think at some point in the interview, she says over 20,000 women who she's talked to who have had issues with those same things. This is not one or two women in the church. It's many. It's many. If one therapist sees that, many who have that same struggle, it's something about the system is causing that.

Meggan Hayes [02:16:56] And I mean, I didn't even get to choose what underwear I wore because my mom bought me the Hanes 6 pack and then I got married and wore garments. So when I left the church, I was like, I don't know how to buy underwears. I, like, went to a department store and asked the woman working there, like, what are my options here as, as a 40 year old woman who didn't know how to buy underwear, like, some of the simplest things were a huge deal to me.

Meggan Hayes [02:17:26] So I think it's very brave. Like we've said that she is going on a very public, national platform and saying, this is what's happening to a lot of these women. Their Locus of control is outside of them. Every decision is made for them. So somewhere outside of their body and their soul, and what she's trying to do is get people to put that locust back inside. Like, you are a person, you have a soul, you have wants, and you have needs, and that's okay. And you can make decisions.

John Dehlin [02:18:02] Beautiful. So well said. Yeah. And I'll just say Julie was so vulnerable. There were several times where her voice starts to crack. You can tell she's getting emotional, she's talking about her mom. You know, I people, Julie's going to be coming on more of a story soon. But I don't know if people know this, but, like, Julie's dad was Lex de Azevedo, who wrote Saturday's Warrior and, you know, was kind of a Mormon celebrity for many decades.

John Dehlin [02:18:33] He and his wife, Julie's mom, had a very public divorce. And, you know, anyone who has seen what happens when a stay at home Mormon mom, who's been a stay at home Mormon mom for 20 or 30 years with four to eight kids, when they get a divorce, they're screwed because their husband ends up going on oftentimes to marry some sweet young thing.

John Dehlin [02:18:59] And then the Mormon divorced mom with four to eight kids never went to college, oftentimes never got a degree, let alone never had a chance to build a career. And, you know, Mormon Stories podcast has many episodes of women who just talk about how they were screwed when their husbands divorced them or left them in terms of, like, picking up the pieces of their shattered life and figuring out what to do. And what Julie saying in that interview, among many other things, is, I was there when my dad left my mom. I was there to watch my mom try to pick up the pieces. And part of why I became a therapist was because I was trying to help my mom survive a very public divorce where she was left powerless and without an education, without a career.

John Dehlin [02:19:55] And again, so then these calloused, heartless Mormon apologists want to demean and denigrate Julie de Azevedo when she's sharing these heartfelt, vulnerable stories, not just about what Julie experienced, not just about what she saw with her own mom, but what she's seen with 20,000 women that have come through the doors of her therapy practices.

John Dehlin [02:20:23] You know, that I can validate with the women in my life. I know Margi wishes she had gone to graduate school. I know that she wishes she had built a career before she had kids. I know that she wishes she would have maybe started having kids later. And I've personally spoken to tens of thousands of Mormon and ex Mormon women who say the same thing.

John Dehlin [02:20:47] So it, the, the church benefits from these young, clueless, faithful Mormon apologists who try to gaslight the world with their ignorance about what they think the average lived Mormon woman's experience is. And all I can say is either they'll figure it out someday and they'll regret the way that they talked about other Mormon women's lived experiences, or they'll just become worse people.

John Dehlin [02:21:24] They're either going to feel bad about what they're doing right now and what they're saying, or they're just going to become worse people than they already are.

Meggan Hayes [02:21:32] Yeah, if they continue down that road, just not leaving space for anyone else's experience, they'll become more entrenched. Things will get more black or white this way or that way. Everything's binary. There's nothing in the middle. Someone can't have some good and some bad in their experience. It just, it's a really hard way to live.

Meggan Hayes [02:21:53] And I think that's part of why they come across as so grading and so callous is because it's hard to look at people who are as compassionate and brave as Julie de Azevedo and find something wrong with all of that, with her entire experience. When she is a champion for women.

Meggan Hayes [02:22:18] She's, she saw what happened to her mother and decided, I don't want anybody else to go through this. I'm so. She's not. Julie Diazebedo's not fighting for patriarchy, she's fighting for women. And Maddie is upset by that. And that's a hard way to live, is to find, to take someone else's bravery and compassion and mock it.

John Dehlin [02:22:49] You know, I'm thinking about this now. Over the past several decades, one of the worst tropes or memes I've seen are these sort of gay, gay, faithful Mormons who get married to women and then become, you know, public, you know, advocates for mixed orientation marriages.

John Dehlin [02:23:10] And maybe there are some, there are some who are happy and fulfilled in their marriage or get by. That's fine. I will acknowledge that there's going to be a bell curving experiences there. But the trope is that they end up cheating on their spouse and they end up getting divorced, like Josh Weed, like Dave Matheson, like so many others, they end up, you know, cheating on their spouse, leaving their spouse and then coming out as gay and then feeling really bad that they were shills for the church advocating for celibacy or mixed orientation marriages when it was a sham and a Fraud all along. I wonder if someday Maddie Packer is going to be one of those tropes, if she's going to be one of the.

John Dehlin [02:23:53] Of the many tropes of these faithful Mormon YouTube influencers who shield for the Mormon patriarchy and gaslit, you know, earnest Mormon women who talked about their struggles in the church who then later get left by their spouse or have the. The realities of life confront them to where they feel really bad and sorrowful for how badly they shield for the patriarchy and demeaned and dismissed the experiences of. Of courageous Mormon women that wanted to share their experiences. So we'll see. Mark my words, we'll see Mattie Packer where you are in 10 or 15 or 20 years or maybe even 5 years. But history isn't kind to people who, who treat other people like you're treating them. History isn't kind to them.

Meggan Hayes [02:24:47] Yeah.

Guest 5 [02:24:47] And.

Meggan Hayes [02:24:48] And I think it's also important that she understands that, like, we possibly said a lot of similar things. I mean, I didn't have a public voice when I was in the church, but I certainly said and thought similar things to what Maddie's saying and thinking. And it's okay to change your mind. Maddie, I know it's hard for you that Julie has done that, has made different choices. Choices. But, like, it's okay to change your mind. And if you want to think differently and say different things, like, we'll listen.

John Dehlin [02:25:21] You know, we, We've, you know, I, I engaged Maddie directly. Julie Devaz engaged her directly. Janice Bengler, my friend, we've all said, hey, why don't you come tell your story? We'll treat you kindly. She doesn't want to actually confront hard questions and, you know, to talk to our faces. She wants to talk about us, but not to us. And that says a lot.

Meggan Hayes [02:25:47] Yeah, yeah. Because then she would lose that protection she has of being in an echo chamber right now.

John Dehlin [02:25:55] Yeah. All right, let's play the next clip.

Guest 3 [02:25:57] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:25:59] Does Julie Hanks have kids?

Guest 4 [02:26:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:26:01] Yes. So what didn't she achieve? Didn't she achieve what she wanted to with kids and, and becoming a therapist? And here she's saying while she was still in the church, she did that.

Guest 3 [02:26:11] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:26:12] So what is she like? I'm not, I'm not seeing the dots here.

Guest 6 [02:26:16] Well, Brando, let me connect the dots. And actually, I'll. I'll. What she would say is that she went against the grain of everything that church members counseled her to do. Which am I going to argue that, you know, there was talks given in you know, while she was growing up that were very, you know, black and white of talking about the roles of, you know, the man and the woman in the house. No, I'm. I'm not going to say that. And maybe she interpreted that as, you cannot go get an education. You have to be a wife that's always at home. And if you're not breastfeeding, then you're cooking, and if you're not cooking, then you're cleaning. And it, you know, maybe she interpreted it like that. I don't know. I'll give her the benefit of.

John Dehlin [02:27:00] It comes down to messaging. Messaging from the church.

Guest 6 [02:27:03] Yeah. So that. And she goes into that a little bit that, you know, she heard a talk growing up that a general authority was really talking about how mothers, you know, there's an epidemic of, you know, children not being raised by their parents, but that parents are always gone. And obviously, she doesn't phrase it like this, but that mother should, you know, take charge of teaching their children and nourishing them and. And, you know, raising them in the home. And so look, again, we don't know everything that Ms. Julie, as de Azevedo, has gone through. And I'm not gonna be naive enough to say that maybe she's had some negative experiences with some people that were very strong in their opinions in that regard.

John Dehlin [02:27:53] Oh, my gosh. I'm. Again, I'm ready to flip a table. But, Meggan, you all. I want to always give you the first. First. The first take.

Meggan Hayes [02:28:01] He's acting like the church is blameless. Like, if there was, like, one prophet who said something that was kind of, you know, the women should stay in the home, Julie just. She just latched on to that, and maybe that's how she interpreted it. Like the church and the system of the church in his mind is not the issue, but Julie's interpretation of what she heard is the issue.

Meggan Hayes [02:28:29] And I hate. I hate that. Like, when I was a kid, it wasn't just one talk. I could play clips for the next many, many hours of Mormon men over the pulpit in General Conference, telling women to stay home and not go into the workplace.

Meggan Hayes [02:28:52] Hours upon hours of them. It was not one talk. It was not one prophet or apostle. It was years worth. Julie de Azevedo had to push back against that because it was the rule of the church. And it wasn't unspoken. It was spoken over the pulpit in General Conference, which is where the word of the Lord supposedly comes from.

Meggan Hayes [02:29:17] And now they want. They're gaslighting, and it's infuriating. Because they're acting like she just heard one willy nilly talk and decided that she was oppressed. No, it was years, it was decades of talks that she heard. And it wasn't just talks over the pulpit. It was then filtered down through stake presidents and bishops and then handed to her young women leaders who couldn't push back against it because this came from the men.

Meggan Hayes [02:29:49] Julie de Azavedo didn't wake up one day and hear one talk and decide that she was going to be a super bad Mormon and she was going to be a mom and a. It just is infuriating that they're acting like the interpretation that Julie had is the problem instead of what the leaders of the church have said for decades.

John Dehlin [02:30:14] Yeah, well said. You know and I'll just add, you know, it was Ezra Tap Benson who was prophet of the church who gave the talk to the mothers in Zion. And in that talk he said, you know, and I'm just trying to find the quotes. We, we probably should do an episode about this because I'm not finding like YouTube videos that just excerpt the quotes from it.

John Dehlin [02:30:48] But it, he just the prophet and the president of the church as I recall, just threw down the hammer and said it is evil. I'm paraphrasing. It is evil for Mormon women to work outside the home. And it was not just a leader giving their opinion that then Julie, this, this was the most galling part about that response that Julie interpreted in a strict way.

John Dehlin [02:31:20] It was the president and prophet of the church, as I understand it, giving a talk in general conference, basically saying it's evil for Mormon moms to work outside the home or, or to put off having kids or to limit the number of kids that they had.

Meggan Hayes [02:31:42] Absolutely yes. Those were the messages that I heard sitting in other members house because we didn't have a satellite dish and couldn't want conference at home. So we had to go to another member's house and dress up in our church clothes and sit for the most boring hours of our entire lives when I was, you know, 6 years old to listen to old white men tell me that my place was in the home, that I needed to grow up, get married and have babies, that I absolutely should not delay marriage, that I said absolutely not to delay children for any reason. Those were the messages. They, they weren't, I wasn't reading between the lines. Those are the things that they said.

John Dehlin [02:32:26] Let me read, let me read some of these quotes and I hope somebody will go share with. Is it Jackson Paul? Is that Jackson Paul and Mattie Packer viewers and listeners, I invite you to share this clip right now with Jackson, Paul and Matty Packer. And I invite them to see if they have the courage to play what they just said about Julie interpreting probably in a false and misunderstanding way, with what some random general authority said. Okay, this is Ezra Taft Benson, prophet and president of the Church. Let me read some quotes. This is to the mothers in Zion, February 22, 1987. This is the year I graduate from high school.

Julie de Azevedo Hanks on Gender Roles and Church History

John Dehlin [02:33:17] This is the year Julie would have been a junior in high school. And when we went to byu, that's all professors were talking about at byu. Was this talk specifically quote contrary to conventional wisdom, a mother's calling is in the home, not in the marketplace.

John Dehlin [02:33:41] In the beginning, Adam, not Eve, was instructed to earn the bread by the sweat of his brow. He continues on Working mothers quote some of our choice sisters are widowed and divorced and others find themselves in unusual circumstances where out of necessity they are required to work for a period of time.

John Dehlin [02:34:09] But these instances are the exception of, not the rule. Quote Mothers who enjoy good health have your children and have them early. Do not curtail the number of your children for personal or selfish reasons. Material possessions, social convenience and so called professional advantages are nothing compared to a righteous posterity.

John Dehlin [02:34:50] And then finally he quotes Kimball, Spencer B. Kimball, saying, quote come home wives to your husbands, wrap the motherly cloak about you and unembarrassed help in a major role to create the bodies of for the immortal souls who anxiously await. Now I'm just going to be very clear. Close quote I love my mom and my wife who are stay at home moms. I honor and respect the valid choice of Mormon women who decide to be stay at home moms who decide to have kids, who decide to have kids early and decide to have them often. And unlike you, Maddie Packer, I believe the Mormon women who say that they chose it and that they loved it and that they are glad they did it.

John Dehlin [02:35:44] I believe you, I respect you, I honor you. I don't think it's an inferior decision. I don't think it's a lesser decision. I think it's a noble and an honorable decision. And don't fucking say that Julie d' Azevedo just misheard or misinterpreted what some random leader said. She was listening to a prophet of God demean women who chose to work outside the home and that's what she had to fight against for decades. Is Mormon culture responding to prophet seers and revelators who denigrated and Demeaned women who felt like they should work outside the home.

Meggan Hayes [02:36:34] And you'll notice when Julie was talking, she didn't say, I want something better than being a stay at home mom. She said, I want something more. She loved that part of her life. She loved it. She just wanted to add to it.

Meggan Hayes [02:36:53] And the prophets had told her that that wasn't acceptable. And Maddie's pissed at her because she thinks Julie was saying, what I did is up here and what you're doing is down here. Maddie, that's not, that is absolutely not what Julie said.

Meggan Hayes [02:37:10] She said there isn't a level. This is what you want for your life and that's amazing. And this is what I want for mine, and that's amazing. So if being a stay at home mom fulfills, truly fulfills someone, then yes, that's do that, do that. And if it doesn't, by all means, do not be a stay at home mom and then end up so lonely you don't make it or end up so unfulfilled that you don't survive. Because that happens. I had moments where I was so incredibly lonely, I did not know if I would continue on or if I even could.

Meggan Hayes [02:38:03] And I didn't feel like I had permission to do anything else. But the first time, when my son went to kindergarten full time and I finally felt like I could be a good mom and work outside the home, I went to work at a high school.

Meggan Hayes [02:38:16] And the depression that I had had pretty consistently for the past, what was it like, 12 years, 13 years? 15 years was gone. Because I had other adult interaction during the day in a way that stimulated my mind and fulfilled a part of me that I didn't know was missing.

Meggan Hayes [02:38:38] Let's stop pretending like the Ezra Taft Benson and Spencer W. Kimball knew what was right for everybody. And let's definitely stop pretending that Julie de Azevedo did not hear what they said and that she did not understand it and that she did not have to push against it because she did hear it, she did understand what they were saying and she was brave enough to do what she needed to do for herself to be fulfilled. Which is what the men were allowed

Guest 2 [02:39:17] to do

Meggan Hayes [02:39:20] from the beginning if they wanted a career. What? You know what, what about the man who wanted to be a stay at home dad? That wasn't allowed either. That's why they say patriarchy hurts everybody, right? Because I had a sister who does really good in the workplace and her husband, who is the most amazing stay at home dad I've ever known. And they weren't allowed to do that for years, and they were miserable until they just decided that they were going to do what worked for them and what the brethren say be damned. But let's absolutely not pretend like the brethren have always given the women the option of going into the workforce.

John Dehlin [02:40:00] Yeah. So beautifully said. Meggan. Another quote. I don't know if I read this under. Under the section rearing children the Lord's way. Again, this is Ezra Tab Benson. It says, quote, contrary to conventional wisdom, a mother's calling is in the home, not in the marketplace. Close quote. Did Julie over or misinterpret those words? Did she just kind of inject her own interpretation into the Prophets council at general conference?

Meggan Hayes [02:40:37] Meggan, how do you make that worse than it is at face value?

John Dehlin [02:40:42] Oh, it's so gross.

Meggan Hayes [02:40:44] Yes, it's super gross. So I think that was the last quote that I had from them, just because I was like, we could do this for hours. But I did want to tell everyone that I have been informed that this. Coming this next week, Julie De Azevedo and Colby Reddish are going to break down this entire video with Maddie Packer and Jackson Paul. They're going to do it live, I believe, this week. So Julie is again not going to shy away from the critique. She's going to address it head on. And I dare say it will be done with incredible wisdom and grace employees. And I cannot wait to hear what her and Colby have to say about it.

John Dehlin [02:41:24] Spoiler alert. Julie Dazevedo will be classy, unlike Maddie Packer and Jackson Paul.

Guest 2 [02:41:31] Mm.

Guest [02:41:32] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:41:32] Spoiler alert. She's gonna be who she's always been, full of love and integrity and power. Just a ridiculous amount of power. And you know what? She'll probably also have a little fear, because who doesn't? Who doesn't? But she shows. She shows up anyway every time we

John Dehlin [02:41:51] dropped F bombs today. Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [02:41:55] Yeah, I'm always trying to resist. I. I have 37 years of not swearing to make up for John.

John Dehlin [02:42:00] Me too. Me too, Meggan. Me too. Andrea Roberts, thanks for the super chat. She writes, my hubby was born and raised. I was a convert. You guys have helped us deconstruct in a healthy and validating in so many ways. Thank you. Thank you. Andrea Roberts, thanks for the super chat and the support.

John Dehlin [02:42:20] Olga Ann says big thank you. John and Meggan, thank you for the super chat. Olga ann and susie. Catherine8570 writes. Thanks, John and Meggan. Thank you for the super chats. Yeah, they really help. And thanks to all of you who support us. I have to admit part of why I'm so upset is because Julie's a personal friend of mine.

John Dehlin [02:42:42] Like, she's, you know, she texts me and me and Beau and Jana like, hey, I software underbelly. They called. And, you know, we're all excited for her to go, and. And she's just been a dear friend for a long, long time. So, yeah, I'm defending my friend.

Guest [02:42:57] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:42:58] Because that's what good friends do is they care about each other and they speak openly about each other, especially when a good friend goes on a national show and does just an amazing job of being who they are and being vulnerable and not being afraid to sit on a stool with a backdrop and nothing else and just be super honest.

John Dehlin [02:43:27] Colby. Colby's pulling out the swear words as well. Colby says Julie will be classy. I'm done pulling punches with these dipshits. I don't like to swear too much on the show because I want believers and progressive Mormons to feel comfortable and people who don't like swearing, because a lot of Mormons don't like swearing. But I got upset. So anyway, is there one more clip, or did we play all the clips?

Meggan Hayes [02:43:53] That was all of them. Yeah. Because like I said, I was like, we could go on forever about the logical fallacies that they used, how inconsiderate they were when they were mean. Like, I think it was over an hour of just. It was pretty awful.

John Dehlin [02:44:07] Yeah. Super cringe. Well, go watch the real thing. It's got. Last time I checked, it had over 100,000 views. It'll have 2, 3, 400,000 by the time it's all done. And you want to hear one other spoiler alert, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:44:22] Absolutely, I do.

John Dehlin [02:44:24] Julie d' Azeveda will not be the last Mormon interviewed on Soft White Underbelly, are we?

Meggan Hayes [02:44:31] You know, when Mitt Romney was running for president, and then everyone was saying it was the Mormon moment, I have felt like pulling the news lately has felt like that again. Like this. Like, the secret lives came out, and people started to just be ridiculously curious about, who are these people and why do they wear these underwear? And why are these women so beautiful? And now it has blossomed into this. Here is this church. Here are the people who are in it. Here's the people who are left. And now this more expanded curiosity about not just the outward appearance, but what's going on on the inside and how it's affecting people. And I. I'm here for it. I'm here for it.

John Dehlin [02:45:13] The truth is, every two years, there's a Mormon moment. The. The Olympics 2002 is a Mormon moment. When Helen Whitney did her PBS series on the Mormons, that was a Mormon moment. When Richard Dutcher had his movies, that was a Mormon moment. Proposition 8 was a Mormon moment. The Book of Mormon musical in 2011 was a Mormon moment. When Mitt Romney ran for president twice, that was a Mormon moment. Obviously, the November 15 policy and the aftermath was a Mormon moment. Recently, the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Mormon moments, like, every two years is a big Mormon moment. And there's going to be many more, even bigger ones in the future because we're just so, so interesting and so cringy.

Meggan Hayes [02:46:03] Well, yeah, like when I was younger, people would be like, oh, aren't you the ones that have polygamy? But now it's like the. The questions have gotten.

John Dehlin [02:46:13] Aren't you all those that do soaking and dirfing? Right.

Meggan Hayes [02:46:17] Well, people are just like, I don't know, it would like. It'd be like, well, aren't you the polygamy ones? And then the conversation would end. But now it's like, oh, wait, you're Mormon. Or you were. And I'm like, I've been. I'm an open book. Ask me anything. And then it's like three hours later. Right?

John Dehlin [02:46:32] Yeah, it's fun. Now you want to be the most popular person at work in a non Mormon company? Just tell them you're Mormon. Yeah, you will become the most popular colleague in your. All right, Meggan, we got one more story, I think.

BYU Medical School Accreditation News

Meggan Hayes [02:46:46] Yep. Yeah, this is it, because we did the sports one at the beginning. So this is what we've got left. So Tad Walsh, who writes the church beat for Deseret News, put out an article saying BYU's turbocharged its application for medical school accreditation and it's paying off.

John Dehlin [02:47:02] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [02:47:03] And yeah, I, like. BYU came out and announced that they have gotten preliminary accreditation. So this is the article that came out to explain all of the miracles, John, that happened when you are fabulously wealthy.

Guest 1 [02:47:20] Yeah.

Guest [02:47:20] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:47:21] Okay. So, yeah, go back to that slide. Let's just read.

Guest 3 [02:47:23] So he.

Meggan Hayes [02:47:24] He said, Mark A. Is an indefatigable worker and inexhaustible believer. So after Reese, Shane Reese, who is the president of BYU, hired him in October 2024, he decided to turn turbocharged. The process, typically newly proposed schools of medicine take five years to apply for and receive preliminary accreditation. OTT knew the timelines allow it to happen in as little as three years, but the requirements are Herculean. He nevertheless, set three years as an all, all gas, no breaks goal. This is an incredible amount of work on an extremely aggressive timeline. He said six months into the job, every time Ott speaks, he shares what he describes as miracles that made it possible to file BYU's nearly 900 page application for accreditation by August 1, 2025.

Meggan Hayes [02:48:15] In the broadest terms, it took more than 200 people to build that massive document in about nine months. And most of them worked for free out of a sense of respect for the university, the church, and Christ.

John Dehlin [02:48:28] Well, we all know that Ted Walsh is, you know, the, the church's leading propagandist as the main. He's the guy who, when he writes, when the Deseret News, wants to write a hit piece on me or on, you know, someone else who is a critic of the church or who just talks openly and honestly about the church, it's Tad Walsh that gets assigned to write the hit piece or the propaganda piece. But what, what, what was interesting to you about that opening paragraph, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:48:57] Well, I just want people to understand what he wrote because the more I looked into it, the less miraculous it became.

John Dehlin [02:49:04] Oh, no, I was going to say 300 billion miracles, right?

Meggan Hayes [02:49:09] So many miracles.

John Dehlin [02:49:11] 300 billion, yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:49:12] Was it a miracle or was it just resources?

John Dehlin [02:49:15] Was it wealth? Was it wealth or miracles? All right, yeah, let's go ahead.

Meggan Hayes [02:49:20] Well, okay, so 27 months, that was one of the miracles, right? July 2024 announcement to October 2026 preliminary accreditation. Existing advantages established university, medical leadership, clinical partnership and facilities. These are things that BYU already had in place. They already have a university, they already have medical leadership. They already had a clinical partnership with.

Meggan Hayes [02:49:45] What's the Intermountain Health? Is that what it's still called? And then they already had facilities because they have endless resources when it comes to real estate. They had professional support outside accreditation, consultants helped review and strengthen the application, which. That's money, right? They paid these people. But then on top of everything and their billions and all of these people, they had more than 200 contributors. The article says most worked for free.

Meggan Hayes [02:50:11] Like, people are so church broke. I don't know a different way to say that they will go to a church with billions of dollars and offer, offer their services for free. Because it's like, if the church has a medical school, it's going to be the best one in the world.

Meggan Hayes [02:50:29] So we want to be part of that history. Because I used to think that, right, I'd be like, well, if I have to find a mechanic, I'm going to get the One that's Mormon because he's going to be better. And if I need a math tutor, I'm going to get the Mormon one because that Mormon one is going to be weight. You know, it's just like they just have a lot of money. I don't think it was miracles.

John Dehlin [02:50:49] Tens of thousands of senior missionaries in free labor. Right. They could pay those senior missionaries, by the way, but they don't. And then they've got tens of thousands of retired professionals acting like corporate employees doing the church's bidding.

Meggan Hayes [02:51:06] Yeah, like someone will be a senior missionary and they'll be an administrative assistant for two years.

John Dehlin [02:51:14] Someone very close to me is a, is a, is a couple who. He's a successful financial advisor, stockbroker. She was a professional radio personality, public relations expert. And they're serving two, three years for free. Paying. Paying to work for the church to advance its corporate NPR interests. And that's just someone close to me.

Guest [02:51:37] Right.

Meggan Hayes [02:51:37] Which, like, if, if there is a couple who is retired, they are set financially and they just want something to do, by all means be fulfilled. Right. Because people get retired and they get, you know, if they get bored or lonely, that's not good for mental health. However, it bothers me to no end when it's people like my parents who went on a mission to New Zealand when they have 14 children who they barely scraped by with for years and years, and now they're serving a mission for the church and they're paying their own way. And if they could get paid, it could benefit them and their children and their grandchildren when they're just doing it for free. That's when it really just gets to me.

John Dehlin [02:52:22] Yeah, I'm actually, I think it's great that retired Mormon couples serve the church because I believe it or not, with all the harshness that I bring sometimes to the church, I think the church does a lot of good. I personally believe the church in many ways does. You know, let's take out the child abuse. If you take out the child abuse, the misogyny, the homophobia, the racism and the financial deception, I think the church probably does more good than harm.

John Dehlin [02:52:55] Maybe I forgot some other important things in there, but I think it's great that people support and serve the church in ways that are ethical. And I think senior retired people need things to do and service is a great thing to do. So I'm not opposed to senior missionaries. I'm not even opposed to the church. I do think it's kind of silly when they claim miracles that are really probably just A result of massive wealth and undue influence of its members. And of course, Meggan breeds the receipts. So tell us the receipts on this one, Meggan.

Guest 3 [02:53:34] Right.

Meggan Hayes [02:53:34] So if it was a miracle, Turns out BYU is not the only school to get accreditation in that amount of time. So the BYU School of Medicine in Provo announcement to Preliminary accreditation approximately 27 months. The Xavier Ochsner College of Medicine, New Orleans, Louisiana, formal partnership to preliminary accreditation approximately 30 months. Very similar. Arizona State University, Phoenix, Arizona accreditation process began to preliminary approval approximately two years, which is less than 27 months.

John Dehlin [02:54:07] So there are Mormons in Arizona.

Guest 4 [02:54:10] Right.

Meggan Hayes [02:54:10] It was the miracles in Arizona, too. But it just the, the miracle thing. Like, I, if there were real miracles, we all have video now, and we would see them. When the miracles are just. We used our money to influence a process like kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel for miracles.

John Dehlin [02:54:30] Well, I mean, we know why they talk this way. Makes you feel good if you believe that what you're part of has God's blessing and God's support. So I get why people talk that way. I think it's kind of silly. How do we feel about. By having a med school?

Guest [02:54:48] Oh, man.

Meggan Hayes [02:54:49] Well, I mean, won't they run into issues with doctrine and medical procedures? Like, are they, are they going to turn people away who doctrinally don't agree with them? How are they going to handle that? Like, if a transgender person wants gender affirming care.

John Dehlin [02:55:11] Yeah. Or, or obgyns are trained to perform abortions. That's. It's, it's required. So are BYU medical students going to be allowed or required to perform abortions as part of their medical training?

Meggan Hayes [02:55:26] Right, because they have to know how to do it. Because not every state has as strict

John Dehlin [02:55:30] of laws as I think it's literally a requirement for. I mean, I, we should look that up. But anyway.

Guest 3 [02:55:36] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:55:36] Interesting. Yeah, I just, and, and, you know, if the believing part of me would want to say, are they going to just offer priesthood blessing, like at the beginning of everything? Because then maybe they don't need half the medical training that they're going to get. Like, what does that say about priesthood blessings if God's one true medical school needs a medical school in the first place?

John Dehlin [02:56:01] Well, because priesthood should make it so there's no sickness in Utah. I, to be honest, I'm always. I've got my BYU hat on here. We started talking about byu, we're going to end talking about byu. I like it when Utah and even the Mormon Church advances. I think it's cool. The BYU is going to have a medical school. I think they'll need to navigate some of those complications. But I think the church, believe it or not, Meggan, I'm on a positive note. I'm going to say this like I was. I was harsh on Maddie and. And Latter Daily Saints. By the way, why is it the church suing Latter Daily Saints for their podcast name, their YouTube channel name? That's. That seems like it really is lawsuit worthy.

Meggan Hayes [02:56:51] Their whole studio was blue with. With the Christus like, but also Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [02:56:57] The church literally calls themselves Latter Day Saints, unlike denouncing the term Mormon. But anyway, I was harsh on Matty and on Jackson Paul. The truth is, I was very, very happy to see them play clips from Julie Hanks and respond to them because even though I didn't like all their responses, it is a form of dialogue to play their clips and then respond to their arguments. And by the way, all they're doing is advertising Julie Hanks to their faithful membership.

Meggan Hayes [02:57:37] Yeah, Julie de Azevedo.

John Dehlin [02:57:39] I'm sorry. Thank you, Julie. Julia de Azevedo. Habits, older habits, Tired. All they're doing is advertising Julia de Azevedo and her story to their faithful membership. I like to say that whenever anyone's speaking the truth wins. Even when people speak in deceitful or disingenuous or even uncharitable ways, they show their colors or people have honest reactions, or other people can respond and show that they're lying or being unkind.

John Dehlin [02:58:13] So, you know, I'm. I give them kudos for speaking about Julie's soft white under underbelly talk. I give them kudos for playing clips of it, and I give them kudos for responding to it. I don't like some of the ways that they responded, but I see this as a huge win. I don't think they have the courage, Maddie doesn't have the courage to come on a podcast with one of us and actually stand up for her beliefs and face questions. But I still give them credit for being a part of the conversation. And I see that as progress and I see the Mormon Church as progressing.

John Dehlin [02:59:01] And whenever they're talking, the truth is winning and we're winning and good things are going to happen. So I'm actually very happy about what is happening on the faithful, apologetic Mormon influence scene, whether Jasmine Rapely or Matty Packer or even Ward Radio and Jacob Hansen. When they're fools, they just show themselves as fools.

John Dehlin [02:59:30] And when they talk about things in thoughtful, honest, open ways, the truth wins. So as far as I'm concerned, It's a win. Win. What do you think? What? You get the last word today, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:59:42] I agree. Because Julie. Julie de Azevedo just is a light in the world. And, you know, don't. Don't put your light under a bushel. Just put that light on Latter Daily Saints. And if there was someone who was listening, who was struggling with the same things that Julie was, and she is an active member, and she's sitting in her congregation every week thinking, am I alone? And then she heard Julie de Azevedo and she knew she wasn't alone. Maddie's words are not going to be comforting to her, and she's going to go where she feels like she belongs. She's going to go where she feels like she can get support.

Meggan Hayes [03:00:24] She's going to go where she feels like she can be in a community that respects her. So there will be plenty of people who will add to the echo chamber of what Maddie's saying and what Jackson Paul is saying. But there will be those who are searching for truth and looking for genuine connection.

Closing Reflections and Sign-Off

Meggan Hayes [03:00:51] And I don't think you can hide that, not when. Not when Julie de Azevedo is talking, like, her sincerity. And so, yeah, I. I think it's a wonderful thing for the exposure that she's giving for women to be able to see someone who started out in the church in a difficult situation and just kept going, because inside somewhere, the whole time, Julie was like, I know what it is that I need, and I'm going to continue to fight for it.

Meggan Hayes [03:01:30] So I, yeah, I absolutely love the exposure. Do I love all the things they said? No, I don't. And I'm, yeah, still going to be discussing it because, you know, I got to process some of those things. But it is a good week in Mormonism when at the front and center of it.

Meggan Hayes [03:01:52] And Julie's probably just going to be embarrassed if she listened to this podcast, how much we're raving about her. But just to have her at the front and center of Mormonism is fantastic. And it's. It's the best Mormonism can look. Is someone like her just fighting for love and for truth.

John Dehlin [03:02:14] Amen. So well said. And while we're speaking about lights into the world, Meggan, you, Meggan Hayes, are a light unto the world. And I. Every. Every week, people are emailing me and DMing me and texting me, thanking me for having you on Mormon Stories podcast and for this show that we do. And it just wasn't a great weekend for you. So I just want to thank you for. For for coming on and all the work that you do as well, because you're changing lives.

Meggan Hayes [03:02:45] Thank you, John. It's an honor. It is. It is absolutely an honor to be able to sit here every week and talk about these things and process them with you and with an audience and to feel the power of this community that we have where we're all deconstructing and. And searching together. It's an honor.

John Dehlin [03:03:09] Amen. And mark my words. Mark my words. Maddie Packer and Jackson Paul. At the end of time, you will be responsible for more people losing their faith in and leaving the church than you will for people staying. I promise you, if you keep treating women and women's stories the way that you are. So do whatever you want to do. I don't want to see the church fall, but you're accelerating its demise with the way that you handle women talking about their lived experiences. So do what you want. Check out Generally Unquotable. That's Meggan's channel. It's on YouTube and TikTok and Facebook and Instagram. Right, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [03:03:54] Yes. YouTube, Patreon, Spotify, TikTok, Instagram and Facebook.

John Dehlin [03:04:00] And so like and subscribe there. And also while you're at it, like and subscribe here on Mormon Stories podcast, you can check us out@mormonnews.com we have a daily news update where we aggregate Mormon news for the day and we put it@mormonnews.com you can also donate become a monthly donor if you valued today's episode. We've got like 34 people who donate to this new show and tens of thousands who watch it and listen. Please become a monthly donor or listen donor to this news show if you value it. 10 bucks a month.

John Dehlin [03:04:38] We don't even earn enough money in a month to pay Meggan for one of her episodes, let alone to pay Julia and me and my staff. So freaking step up and donate and pay and become a monthly donor for the Mormon News podcast. I think we deserve it. I think we do a good job. Meggan, you're a saint. Go Cougars.

John Dehlin [03:05:05] And thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks for Julia and Brooklyn and everyone who does what they do. Thanks for Margi for supporting me while I'm here. Please email us@mormstoriesmail.com please comment. We love your comments on YouTube and yes, Maddie Packer, please accept my warm invitation to come on Mormon Stories podcast. I would love to hear your story. I promise I will treat you kindly and respectfully even even though you don't treat other Mormon women kindly and respectfully. I will treat you kindly and respectfully. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Go Cougars. We'll see you all again. Go, Aggies. Go, Utes. Go, Wildcats. Thunderbirds. And we'll see you all again on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast.

Guest [03:05:51] Take.

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