Welcome and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Foreign. And welcome to another edition of the Mormon News Podcast, brought to you by Mormon Stories Podcast and generally unquotable with Meggan Hayes. Hey, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:00:14] Hey, Happy Friday, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:00:15] It's good to be here. Thanks for all. All the work you do to make this possible, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:00:20] It's fun. It's fun. I. I just find Mormonism fascinating. I can't stop.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] Amen. Amen. Quickly, run and remind everyone, please like and subscribe this channel and Meggan's general and quotable channel. Please check us out@mormonnews.com which is where we put this podcast. It's kind of the home of this podcast. It's also an aggregator of all the daily Mormon news that we can aggregate. MormonNews.com and finally, we now have. I don't know if I told you this, Meggan. I think I did. Now the Mormon News podcast is available on Spotify and I think soon on Apple Podcasts as its own podcast.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] And if you want to support the Mormon News Podcast financially so that we can be sustainable and continue the way that you do that is to go to donorbox.orgmormon-news or you can just go to mormon news.com and click on the donate button and become a monthly donor.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] Yeah. And I'm really grateful for those who have. Who have been donating there, because that makes this all possible. Anything else you want to add to that?

Meggan Hayes [00:01:39] I did have a friend message me this week and say, I'm supporting Mormon News. And I was like a. It's really exciting.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] Yay.

Meggan Hayes [00:01:47] Like, I think people enjoy what we're doing. I think they appreciate what we're doing.

John Dehlin [00:01:51] Absolutely. Absolutely. So, everyone, please, we. You know, last time I checked, we had, like, 30 people who were monthly donors to this podcast. We're probably at 35 now. We know tens of thousands of you watch it. So if you're already donated to Mormon Stories or. Or generally unquotable, don't worry about it. If you're valuing this content and you want to see it continue and you're not supporting either Meggan or I or us both in any specific way, please become a supporter. All right. So, Meggan, so busy week. Not a busy week. Tame week. How was the week?

Meggan Hayes [00:02:35] So busy. I swear, like, on Friday mornings, about 8am When I get on my computer, there's. I have all the slides ready, and then there's always three or four more things where I'm like, oh, we better put something about this. And, oh, we better put something about this. And it fills up so quickly.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] And I just threw stuff in Just now as well. So that's. All right. Well, let's jump to it. So the thumbnail. The thumbnail is the tithing campaign. Six leaders, one message. We always love a good tithing discussion, Meggan, but what else. What else do we have for today's story

Introduction to the Tithing Campaign

Meggan Hayes [00:03:14] other than the tithing campaign? So much. Okay, so we're going to talk about what happened after Dan McClellan went on the Joe Rogan show, because there were some interesting podcasts that talked about him, people pushing about whether or not he pays tithing to the Mormon Church. Then we're going to go into a couple of different surveys that have gone out. One that is analyzing what members are thinking and the one that the church sent out to members. So two different surveys. We're going to talk about an article in the Deseret News about the helpline. We're going to look at some Juneteenth comments that were made because the church supported Juneteenth monetarily. And then we have two smaller stories about something that happened at BYUI with their sexual assault reporting. And then a little update about Garrett Kong and AI. He tends to be mixed up in a lot of stuff with AI.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] Yeah, I was shocked. I, I forwarded this to you. The New York Times did a. A really, really significant story on Claude and artificial intelligence. And Garrett Gong was quoted or at least referenced in that New York Times article that like a bunch of New York Times journalists were referencing as like a. A really important article. So anyway, it's fun that we'll be covering that because I spent a lot of time on cloud these days.

Meggan Hayes [00:04:39] Yeah, well, the article was fascinating. I read it was almost like a little mini book. It was so good, though. Brought up a lot of questions.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] Yeah. Well, we want to welcome all our on our live stream. We've already got 150 people on our live stream. We want to thank Trevor for helping to Mod and Julia as well. So let's get into it. What's our, what's our first story, Meggan?

Kristen Yee Devotional on Caring for Those in Need

Meggan Hayes [00:05:03] So this is something that's interesting. So I, I first saw that Kristen Yee had done a devotional about caring for those in need. And I read through it. I was like, okay, this is pretty boilerplate. This is normal for the church. So Sister Yee's Sunday, September 20th devotional at the Institute was part of an assignment given to the Relief Society General Presidency and Presiding Bishopric who sit together on. On the Welfare and self Reliance Executive Committee of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In upcoming devotionals, each of the Other members of the General Presidency and the bishopric will be speaking about one of the church's divinely appointed responsibilities to care for those in need.

Meggan Hayes [00:05:45] So when I first saw her devotional, I really didn't think much about it. And then I realized that her devotional was part of a series that she had been assigned to talk about. And they're calling it Caring for those in Need.

Meggan Hayes [00:06:05] But now that I've listened, well, I couldn't listen to her talk because, Sister Kristen, you gave the devotional, and there's no video available for whatever reason. It was at Utah Valley Institute, and there's no video footage. There was just a church news article. But since then, there have been two other talks in this series.

Meggan Hayes [00:06:23] And so when I started listening to them, I started realizing a little theme. So in Kristen, she said, tithing and fast offerings are another way the church members are making a difference. These are Heavenly Father's laws, not the laws of man. Sister Yee said she invited institute students to read Isaiah 58 and the blessings that come from fasting. I couldn't get a lot from her talk, but it was just kind of what springboarded me into listening to the two other talks that have been given and realizing that after three talks in General Conference on Tithing, the church is making this concerted push towards talking about tithing in a certain way. And we're going to kind of see that as we go through.

John Dehlin [00:07:12] Okay. All right. You got. You piqued my interest.

Meggan Hayes [00:07:18] It piqued my interest, too, when I started realizing what was happening. So the next slide, we really talk about what Kristen, you said very much because there's no video of her thing. I don't know why. Is it because she's a woman and she doesn't have the priesthood? So they don't. I don't know. But Christopher Waddell from the Presiding Bishopric, plenty video footage of what he said. So his talk was also themed Caring for those in need. He gave it October 13th at BYU Hawaii. And let's go to the. The next slide, which is a clip from his talk.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] All right, let's roll the tape.

Guest [00:07:57] A similar message is being shared at BYU in Provo, at BYU Idaho, and Institutes of Religion at the. At UVU in Provo, Orem, at the University of Utah and Utah State.

Meggan Hayes [00:08:09] Okay, so that he said that in his talk. And I thought it was interesting to me that he's in Hawaii. Why is he telling the students there that this is being shared elsewhere? I just thought that part was weird. Like, I don't know that they care too much, but it does. It does solidify the fact that this is a concerted effort. This is a thing they're doing very much on purpose. So I just wanted to throw that in there. Okay, but let's go to the next video because this is where it starts to get more interesting.

Church Leaders Address Questions About Finances

Guest [00:08:41] Now, occasionally, questions are raised about church finances. Questions such as, are church funds managed? Well, questions such as, should I pay tithing and offerings if the church has sufficient resources? When these questions come up, I think of a conversation I had with one of my adult daughters. She said, dad, I pay my tithing because it's a commandment, and I'm blessed for my obedience, blessings that I need. It has nothing to do with how much money the church might have. She then continued, if there are problems with how those tithes and offerings are managed, that's on your head, not mine.

Meggan Hayes [00:09:20] Whoa.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] Okay. What do you think about that?

Guest [00:09:24] I.

Meggan Hayes [00:09:25] He. He asks two questions. Well, he highlights two questions that people are asking, right? And then he doesn't answer them. He doesn't answer them. He just says, so see, I'm looking at the. Oh, okay, go. Go to the next slide.

Meggan Hayes [00:09:43] Because here's. I think what we need to address first is like, why. Why would people be asking these questions? Right? What were the questions he asked? It was like, are the funds properly managed and should I pay tithing, even if the church has a lot of money? So why.

Meggan Hayes [00:10:00] Why? These questions might be raised on March 15, 2005. And this is directly from the SEC order that the church received on March 11 on. And this is number 11 on there. On March 15, 2005, the church became aware that the public might link this first LLC to the church because the person signing the Forms 13F was listed in a public directory as a church employee to address this issue. On March 21, 2005, the Senior Leadership of the church approved a new reporting entity to be created with better care being taken, to ensure that neither the street nor. Nor the media could connect the new entity to Ensign Peak.

Meggan Hayes [00:10:38] So basically, people might be asking if the church is managing their funds correctly because back in 2005, they started to hide the funds with their multiple shell companies. And as soon as they found out that people were finding the shell companies, they changed the way that they organized the shell companies so the people couldn't find out.

Meggan Hayes [00:11:03] I don't. I mean, he knows that. And of course, he's in front of these students sort of acting like. I don't know why people would raise these. These questions.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] Yeah, so you're saying he's not acknowledging the church's past mistakes and errors. He's. Are you, are you saying he's kind of omitting, whitewashing, gaslighting? Some are. All of the above. Which, which are you?

Meggan Hayes [00:11:32] Well, yeah, I, I just think like he brings up these questions that are being asked to these students. Right. These are younger folks and he wants to pretend like he's going to address the questions, but he's not. He just wants them, I think, to know that the questions are out there and then he's going to tell them what they should do about them. So I would think all of the above of what you were saying. He's not going to say these questions are being raised because of what happened with the sec. And here's the in depth version of what the church did with their multiple shell companies. He's not going to bring any of that up.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] Yeah, I mean, in some ways it's like surprise, not surprise. If Oaks, if Dallin Chokes, is the leader of the church and if he's on record for decades saying the church neither seeks nor offers apologies and that it's wrong to criticize the Mormon Church leaders, even if the criticism's true. We're just never going to expect, as long as he's in charge, especially any acknowledgement of past mistakes. But even before Oaks, the church just, they never apologized for the priesthood ban, they never apologized for the era, they never apologized for the LGBT suicide epidemic. Like for, for hiding history. And, and just the church doesn't apologize. And they, and they, they have a long 150 plus year history of whitewashing and hiding the truth from its members. So we're not surprised. Right, but it's just another example.

Meggan Hayes [00:13:06] Yes, yes. Oh, no, we're not surprised. Yeah, it just, it's when I first saw Kristen Stock and then started to listen to his. It just started to feel kind of slimy to me. So let, let's keep going though.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] Okay. Okay. So a little bit slimy. Let's go to the next slide. All right. Is this it?

Meggan Hayes [00:13:31] No, no, go to the next one. So it's, it's the next clip from his talk.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] This one. Okay.

Guest [00:13:37] Tithing is not about money. It's about faith in the Lord and a desire to keep his commandments.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:13:46] Said like someone who has maybe never worried about money. I don't know. It really bothers me when they say that because tithing is a hundred percent about money. Like you take your money and you give it to the church. On the next slide, I put a couple of thoughts like, faith may explain why someone gives money. Right.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] Okay, let me pull it up.

Meggan Hayes [00:14:09] Yeah. But it doesn't establish that the organization receiving it is financially accountable. So if we go back to his original question, which is, is the money being managed appropriately? Then he comes out and says, tithing's not about money.

Meggan Hayes [00:14:25] He's still not answering the question. And I think, like, it's important. My Mormon brain would have listened to this and be like, oh, he's right. Tithing's not about money, it's about faith. And. But in deconstruction, it's so important for me every time to stop and be like, this is what my Mormon brain would have heard, but this is what he is actually doing. Number one, he's not answering the question. And number, like he's dodging it and he's saying something that's just objectively false. Like, tithing is about money. You take your money and you give it to the church. And it just irritates me when someone with the level of privilege that he has says tithing is not about money.

Meggan Hayes [00:15:01] Like, if he was worrying about feeding his kids tonight, he would know that he would be taking that money that was going to buy food for his kids and giving it to the church instead.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] So can I, can I explore this with you a tiny bit?

Meggan Hayes [00:15:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] So let's just, let me try and just take them at their word. A lot of these, you know, a lot of these general authorities have enjoyed multigenerational patronage, favoritism, cronyism, you know, multi, generational wealth. But not all. When you hear about, like Jeffrey Holland, how he used to talk about getting in, I don't know, I'm making this up, but like the station wagon with Pat, his wife and their small children, and driving off to Yale and the car's breaking down and they're living in a tiny apartment like, I imagine at least some of these church leaders were poor, just like the rest of us at one point were struggling and they paid their tithing anyway.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] And I think they all know the church is richer than heavenly father in 2026. And I think they all know that the church doesn't need, technically need the members money to pay the bills, although I think they'd rather the number go up than the number stay flat or go down.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] But what do you think about the argument that they really do believe that there are spiritual blessings that come from paying tithing because they, they paid tithing when they were poor and they're now rich and, and, and successful. And so they don't want to deprive members of the opportunity to pay tithing and to be blessed for it, even if the church doesn't need the money. Like, it could be a sincere argument from their perspective. And I'm wondering if you agree or don't agree.

Meggan Hayes [00:16:54] I think it definitely could be sincere, absolutely. Because when I was a member and I was struggling financially when I paid my tithing, whether or not I ended up having food to put on the

Guest 2 [00:17:07] table,

Meggan Hayes [00:17:09] I just believed. Right. So they, they can be full believers and believe what they're saying is giving someone an opportunity for blessings and they can be harming people at the same time. They can be telling people to do something that is financially irresponsible at the same time that they are sincere. So I definitely think it can be both. Like, I don't need. I don't need Bishop Waddell to be mean spirited, although he was part of the. I mean, he. He was someone who I'm. I'm fairly sure knew about the shell companies and knew about the hiding of the wealth. So I don't know ethically. There are some things he's likely done that it surprises me that he didn't find them reprehensible. But I think someone can be a true believer and harm people at the same time.

John Dehlin [00:18:12] And you think he knew why? What is your theory for why you think he knew?

Meggan Hayes [00:18:17] Oh, because he was in the Presiding Bishopric when they were doing all of that. And we'll talk about that. Like, I put up a timeline of when the.

John Dehlin [00:18:23] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:18:24] Yeah, when.

John Dehlin [00:18:24] Got it, Got it. Okay, let's go to the. Let's go to the next slide.

Meggan Hayes [00:18:27] Yeah, well, go to the next video first.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Before this one or after.

Meggan Hayes [00:18:35] Right there, the slide 11. It's just right before that. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] This. This video. Okay.

Guest [00:18:46] As someone and as a bishopric who has responsibility for how these resources are handled, I can assure you that those who oversee the funds of the church are deeply mindful of the offerings, that the offerings represent the sacrifice and faith of members all over the world, from the wealthiest member of the church to the widow's mite.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] Okay. So he basically is addressing the concerns you voiced many times on this show. He's saying, we get that members all over the world are sacrificing. We understand the point of the widow's might, and we're sensitive to that.

Meggan Hayes [00:19:23] Yes. So now you can go to the next slide and we'll just. I just. I think it's hard for me to understand how someone in his position, who's seen what he's seen and done what he's done, stands up at the pulpit and says these things. So in 1997 was when the SEC, like from 1997 to 2019 was when the SEC identified reporting violations. Waddell joined the presiding bishopric in 2015.

Meggan Hayes [00:19:52] So he was in when these things were happening. He served in the Presiding Bishopric during the final four years of the reporting arrangement. So from 2014 to 2017, internal audits warned the SEC might disagree with the reporting structure. In May of 2018, Mormon Leaks connected the shell companies to the church Investments. In 2018, two business managers resigned over concerns. Ensign Peak replaced them and continued. And In February of 2020, Ensign Peak filed a consolidated report for holdings as of December 31, 2019.

Meggan Hayes [00:20:29] The SEC order does not establish why the church changed its reporting practices or Waddell's personal knowledge or approval. However, he was part of the Presiding bishopric starting in 2015. And so I think he's maybe trying to address that by saying we do care about the widow.

Meggan Hayes [00:20:51] I think it just, it kind of blows my mind that he knows all of that and can stand up there and say these things. It does and it doesn't because I can still remember, like I said, my believing brain,

John Dehlin [00:21:05] you know, just thinking about it a little bit. Like I. Weirdly, when you think about. And I don't know if you're going to cover this, so stop me if you are. But when David Nielsen, the Ensign Peak whistleblower, talked about the internal discussions around why they were creating the shell companies and hiding the church's wealth at Ensign Peak from the membership, it was because they were worried that members would stop paying tithing once they knew the church was worth hundreds of billions of dollars.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] And so for me, one, there. I guess there's two questions. Or do we think when they hid the money, when Waddell and. And others Eyring Hinckley, you know, they're all complicit. When they hid the wealth from the church members, can we say that they were sincere or not in their concern that members would lose the benefits of paying tithing if they knew that the wealth was there. In other words, they were hiding it because they genuinely believed that the members would.

John Dehlin [00:22:23] Would lose out if they stopped paying tithing because they knew the church didn't need the money. Like, is it possible they had sincere motivations in hiding the wealth?

Meggan Hayes [00:22:37] I think so. It just gets so messy because there were times when I did things because like, say a bishop told me to when I was a Relief Society president where I felt like they were wrong, but I was like, I'm just gonna follow God's, you know, servant. So maybe there are parts of them deep down that knew that they were, what they were doing was wrong. I don't know because it just depends on the person. The level of sincerity could be pretty high though. And he seems, I don't know, he's got his general conference voice going, so he seems very gentle and very kind. But I don't know him as a person, but absolutely. I think people can be so far into the church system that, you know, we call it lying for the Lord where they feel like we do need to do this because people need the blessings of tithing.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] Yeah. And I would love to hear any, any comments or super chats that people want to share that we can share to get, to get viewers and listeners opinions or comment after the live stream's over. But I think that, I think that it's, it's probably a both and where they do believe that tithing brings benefits. And I can I just make an argument with you about that, Meggan?

John Dehlin [00:23:54] Here's my argument that it seems like Mormons do spectacularly well per capita, adjusting for the fact that the wives generally stay home and don't work from home. So they're single income families for the most part with, with a large number of children and yet Mormons tend to do well financially. How does that happen?

John Dehlin [00:24:21] And it seems like if you follow the church model, you go to byu, you get a great degree that historically has been reputable and you go do some white collar job which is being a dentist, being orthodontist, being an accountant, being a lawyer, being. And we all know the church produces, over produces per capita doctors, dentists, orthodontists, attorneys, professionals, accountants, that on average the average Mormon man makes more income while paying tithing and being a part of the church than the average US Citizen does.

John Dehlin [00:25:04] And in that sense has a net, the family has a net benefit of being part of the church's system. It's almost like Mormons have become modern Jews in the sense of like taking care of our own, being financially hard working and industrious, having a traditional family and then becoming relatively per capita wealthy.

John Dehlin [00:25:31] And so while I, well, they obviously also want to hide their wealth so they can keep getting wealthier. And so I think there's a dual motivation there. I do think that half of their motivation could be sincere. And I'm just, I haven't even thought about this and formulated my thoughts before today. Much But I'm just wanting to run by you and see if you think there's a decent argument for that, that Mormons historically have benefited from being members of the church and paying to be members of the church. The net benefit is higher wealth per capita, better white collar jobs per capita than the general population.

Listener Discussion on Tithing and Church Wealth

Meggan Hayes [00:26:19] Yeah, no, it's interesting. I love that you're bringing this up because providing nuance in our conversations is so important because that's something that isn't really found much inside the church. Right. So we can say that Christopher Waddell could very much be sincere. He could feel like it's really what the Lord wanted him to do because his belief is so strong that he wants other people to have the same benefits that he did from paying his tithing. And I do see, and I think part of this is the culture of Mormonism to get, you know, go on a mission, get married young, go to the church schools which are cheap compared to other schools. Right? Like, yeah, a lot, A lot more. Yeah, a lot more people are afforded an education in Mormonism because it's so cheap.

John Dehlin [00:27:12] Not just cheap. Like I graduated from BYU summa cum laude. I ended up at the best companies in the world. I ended up at Bain, top five company to work for out of Harvard. Right. I worked at Arthur Andersen, the number one accounting firm in the world at the time. Although they've since self imploded because of Enron. And then guess what, I end up at Microsoft, I end up at mit.

John Dehlin [00:27:39] And I just have to say, growing up, going to BYU in the 90s ended up being very good for my white collar professional career. And I got a heavily discounted high quality education going to byu. I did not have the, the, as the debts from. I had a little bit of student loans, maybe $6,000 of student loans, but I did not have the Ivy League debts that, that I would have to go to a comparable education. And again, I'm not trying to justify it, just trying to think through this, you know.

Meggan Hayes [00:28:18] Right. It's going to be a little noisy for a second because my neighbor's getting their lawn mowed. But no worries, I agree. Like my husband and I did what we were supposed to, right? We got married young, we had kids right away and we did. Even though I had a full tuition scholarship to Rick's and byui, so I didn't ever have to pay any of that. We did end up with student loads just because like when we graduate. Well, when I graduated, I was pregnant with our third child. By the time he graduated we had three kids, so we did end up with some. But like you said, if we'd gone to an Ivy League school, the debt would have been much, much higher.

Meggan Hayes [00:28:54] So yeah, I can see, I can see both. It's just an interesting conversation to have where I appreciate the education that I was allowed to get, that I was privileged enough to get because it was so inexpensive and even, you know, at the time in Rexburg, our apartment, I think we paid $400 a month and all our utilities were included. You know, a two bedroom, two bath, like that's just unheard of. So yeah, I appreciate that the church can do that and there is a lot of harm that comes.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] I'll share a couple, couple comments. We appreciate the livestream and people commenting. Daddy Todd writes, john Mormons are better off because of privilege, not because of paying tithing. I don't know, like I, I don't know how you can separate them the church. You, you can't have a healthy, successful church if members don't pay for it.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] So. And how did Mormons get privileged that I. Part of it is they're white and you know, Christian in America. But part of it is we have a close knit community with resources and an international network where no matter, you know, like part of why I got hired at Bain was because there were a bunch of partners at Bain who used to go to BYU and then went to Harvard and then they hired their own.

John Dehlin [00:30:23] Like I just think membership has its privileges and it's more complicated than just privilege. I think members paying tithing makes a strong, healthy, wealthy, powerful church. And then a healthy, wealthy, powerful church means that members get better jobs and better opportunities. So it's hard to separate in my view tithing from the privilege that so many white collar Mormons experience these days. Do you want to jump in and respond to Daddy Todd or should I just go to the next comment?

Meggan Hayes [00:31:00] It just made me think of when Donnie and I were living in southeast Alaska and he was working for the city and owned a sport fishing business and he would get interns from BYUI to come up and work at both. And that was part of that Mormon connection, right? It's like we knew the people coming up, we knew what their standards were likely going to be. You know, we understood that because we would have them live in a like sort of separate portion of our house, but we didn't worried that they were going to be partying or whatever, you know, so that Mormon network is, is a big deal. And even now like Donnie will still have people reach out to him and say, oh, you know, I'm looking for a job and it'll be a professor that he had at BYUI or so there is something to be said definitely about the Mormon Network.

John Dehlin [00:31:51] I think so. I think it's, I think it's, I think you get what you pay for sometimes. Now, is there informed consent? Should, should the church be hiding its wealth from its members? No. Should it be admitting that it deceived and hide, hid stuff and lied to the SEC in the membership? Yes, but I, I, I, I actually take them at their word that they believe that members, even poor members, even African members and Latin American members and Filipino members. I really actually believe that the brethren believe that they will net benefit from paying tithing before they buy food, from paying tithing before they buy shoes, by their association with the church, with the ward or branch, experience with pathways, with general affiliation with the church.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] And I think if you look at a multi generational European or Latin American or African members, you can see relative prosperity from their association with the church. So I think this is complicated. Meggan, what do you think about this comment they write? Meggan's family is an example of the struggle of families. Do you understand what they're writing there? And do you agree?

Meggan Hayes [00:33:12] Yeah, it could be my family of origin or like my husband and our kids. Right. Like I grew up with 13 siblings. I'm certain my parents never missed a tithing payment. And there was a lot that we went without. So I don't know that we experienced like temporal blessings from that. I think it was probably just a matter of faith. I think maybe the blessings, if I asked, my parents would say that they never lost their belief like half of their kids have.

Meggan Hayes [00:33:45] I mean, but we didn't, you know, money didn't fall from the skies, clothes didn't show up at our door. And if I think back on when my kids were little and I was paying tithing, when we really couldn't afford even to pay rent, really every time that a payment would come up that we had, you know, have to pay our electric bill and we're $5 short or whatever, I would be like, well, we paid our tithing, so it's gonna, you know, money's gonna come from somewhere. And then what would happen is money didn't come from anywhere. I just went out and figured it out.

Meggan Hayes [00:34:20] I picked up an extra job or, you know, called someone to help or whatever. It's like the tithing wasn't necessarily doing it, but my belief that the tithing would was just me getting up and doing it myself.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] Right. But I also believe that forcing members to be industrious, forcing a family to have more kids and then to strive for a better job because you not only have a lot of kids, but also because the wife is staying home and also because you're paying 10% of our income. There's this weird you combine that with the community of support and morals and ethics and values. I actually think it can drive people, force them to be more industrious and give them the support that they need to be able to successfully be more industrious. And again, I'm not rationalizing or justifying deception or lack of apologies or lack of honesty or fraud.

John Dehlin [00:35:20] I'm just noting that Mormons tend to be pretty affluent per capita and successful per capita. So I don't think we can say that happens in spite of the church and in spite of the culture and in spite of the tithing.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] And so that got, you know, that that ties to this comment forty rounds nine five nine two writes John well, that's an interesting correlation. We need to remember that correlation does not equal causation. It may be that Mormons are rich in tithe, but not that tithing causes wealth. And again, yeah, I'm not claiming to know causation, but I think there's this idea of scoreboard. You look at the scoreboard, who's winning, and that's the biggest testimony of all. Up until 2026, Mormons are healthy and wealthy, and I think the church might be optimizing for that and it's hard to argue with the results. Now, are they mentally healthy?

John Dehlin [00:36:15] Is there depression? Is there suicidality? You know, are there addiction? Problems with prescription drugs and hidden addictions, plastic surgery that is unhealthy levels, you know, anxiety, depression? Those are things you can argue as well. Anyway, food for thought. If people have comments, please email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com Please comment in YouTube. I would love to hear one other super chat just came in from our devoted viewer and listener Ryan Scott, pnw. He writes, as a young man, I was taught to pursue a career that would support a big family. So I chose a college degree that would lead me there. Tithing resulted from my choices and it did not enable them.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] Interesting. And I'll just say yes. And tithing has made the church wealthy and successful so that the church could continue to provide support for its moral lessons, for its family, support for its community, support for its buildings, for its theology that can drive people.

John Dehlin [00:37:24] So I don't know another thank you to Clinton Travis for your super chat as well. All right, Meggan, any final thoughts before we jump to the next slide?

Meggan Hayes [00:37:33] No, let's keep going.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] Okay. Anyway, thanks for enduring my speculation. Is this the next slide?

Meggan Hayes [00:37:40] No, it's the video. The one right before this.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] The one right before it. Okay, let's jump to that one.

Church Leaders on How Tithing Funds Are Used

Guest [00:37:47] Now, while we draw upon professional expertise to allocate and invest church funds, we also seek inspiration from the Lord on how they can be used to further the mission of the church, which is, of course, the ultimate purpose of church financial resources.

Meggan Hayes [00:38:00] Okay, Meggan, So I just love when they say things come from the Lord. It's like when they had the 2015 policy of exclusion and they made a big meal about it being from the Lord and then they rescinded it three years later. This, to me, was an instance of everything that happened during the SEC time. Like, that's what I have on the next slide is where was that divine inspiration during the years the church was filing misleading financial disclosures? But we've talked about that. Like, did they actually think that the. That Heavenly Father was the one inspiring that. How exactly are members supposed to distinguish then between inspired financials decision from. From the ones that resulted in SEC violations? Like, if the Lord was involved, how involved was he?

John Dehlin [00:38:50] I mean, you know, I'm doing this. I. I did this 41 episode Joseph Smith podcast series with John Turner. Now I'm doing. I'm like seven or eight episodes into a Brigham Young series. Clearly, the example that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young set for modern church leaders is that you lie and you hide things from the membership and. Or the government if it benefits the church.

John Dehlin [00:39:14] And I do not think that the current modern church leaders have any reason to believe that they shouldn't lie and hide things from both the membership or the government if they think it'll benefit the church. Because that's not only what the Bible and the scriptures say, but that's what early church leadership did. For well over 100 years, since the beginning, Mormon church leaders have been hiding and lying from the government or the members.

John Dehlin [00:39:42] Lying for the Lord is absolutely sewn in and woven in to the ethical and the moral foundations of Mormon church leadership. And I don't know how you separate it unless you just declare Joseph Smith and Brigham Young in apostasy. Like, if you look at, like, Michelle Stone and the polygamy deniers, you know, they realize that if the narrative is true that Joseph Smith hid polygamy from Emma, hid polygamy from the church membership, and lied about it, he can't be a prophet and be a liar and a sexual predator. So the way that Michelle Stone and polygamy deniers have dealt with that is just to say, well, then Joseph Smith couldn't have practiced polygamy because you can't have a prophet who's a serial liar. Right.

Meggan Hayes [00:40:32] Yeah. Sorry. People are saying that my mic sounds weird. It's because the neighbor's getting their lawn done. I'm so sorry.

John Dehlin [00:40:39] It's okay. It's okay. Don't. Don't worry about it. So anyway, I. I'll just. I'll just. I'm. And, you know, Meggan, let us know when that. When that's over. But I'll just say that they're modern leaders. I think you can. You can just sort of say they're only doing what they've been taught to do, by hiding and lying and deceiving and what the church has done from the very beginning. And I don't know that that justifies it, but at least they're consistent.

Meggan Hayes [00:41:15] Yeah, it just. That's just not what I was taught. Right. It's like they have a different standard for themselves. And so when I was a kid, if I did something and lied about it because I was trying to protect myself, which is what they're doing, I would have gotten in huge trouble, not just from my dad, but, like, you know, there could be repercussions at church.

Historical and Leadership Context Around Tithing

John Dehlin [00:41:35] Well, Meggan, can I. I mean, I've. I just recorded an episode with John Turner this week. It's going to take several weeks before it gets out because I'm ahead in my recordings of the Brigham Young. Can I just tell you a quick story, Meggan, about the Brigham Young podcast? So I'm reading this book, Brigham Young Pioneer Prophet. Right. And at this point in the book, we're on, like, chapter five. It's called Word, and Will Brigham Young is. Is his left nauvoo with the saints. He's on the pioneer trail going to Iowa. By this time, he has 40 wives. He gets 40 wives in the space of five years.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] Okay. He's got, like, 15 wives with him traveling in this harem on the pioneer trail. He's enjoying sex and having babies with at least 15 wives, if not more. And there's this instance in the book where he finds out that other young men on the pioneer trail are having sex with a single person, whether married or not. He finds out that some of the young men on the trail are having sex, and he has them clubbed. They're literally beaten for violating the law of chastity.

John Dehlin [00:42:55] On the pioneer trail. They're clubbed, they're beaten, they're whipped, while he's having sex with up to 15 women. And it's. It, yes, double standard because it's okay if the Lord allows it. So in Brigham Young's mind, his sex with 15 different women on the pioneer trail was good.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] It was righteous. It was establishing a righteous posterity. And at the same time, that one young man having sex with that one young woman, if it wasn't legally approved of or approved of by Brigham, it was a violation of the law of chastity, and it was evil. And that is Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:43:47] It's rules for the leaders and rules for the members. And it's not even a double standard. It's that God's chosen leaders are living a higher law and they're obeying the law of chastity. Even if it's 15 women. God approved it because it's 15 women in a God approved marriage. And those young men and women who are having sex outside of marriage are. Are violating God's law. And so it feels like a double standard, but in their minds, it's God's law. What's wrong? What's wrong with that, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:44:27] I should have just done stuff I wanted to do, John. That's the moral of this story. Like, I was deprived of so many experiences because I wanted to do what was right.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] Who's to say that you weren't? Who's to say that? I mean, from their perspective, you were obeying God's law for you, which is different than God's law for them. Why can't God have different laws for leaders versus members? Why doesn't God have the right to have different laws for. And look how much you and Donnie benefited from being raised in the church. What.

Meggan Hayes [00:45:05] What. What were those benefits? I mean, I guess we found each other. We did meet at church, however. Like, look at the.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] No, I'm. I'm. I'm playing devil's advocate, but I'm not. Look at the amazing person you are, Meggan. Look at the amazing person that I. I'm under. I'm. I'm teasing. Look at the amazing person that I am. Look at how many amazing Mormons there are. That's the fruits is the Mormon church created us. Aren't. Don't you think you're pretty cool?

Meggan Hayes [00:45:35] I do think I'm fairly awesome.

John Dehlin [00:45:37] I think you're badass, Meggan. I think you're a badass. I think Donnie's a badass. I think Mormons are generally badasses. And guess what? We became this because we followed the churches and God's commandments for us.

Meggan Hayes [00:45:52] Well, I think a lot of us became this way because we did the work to understand that we weren't going to follow those anymore in the way that they were presented to us. Right. Like, we went through all of that.

Meggan Hayes [00:46:12] I didn't have normal experiences as a teenager because those would have been breaking the law of chastity. So I didn't even kiss a boy till I was 18, etc. Etc. And when I learned that I could say no to what the church was telling me to do, I think that's when I really started to become who I am today. So I can't separate who I am today from growing up in the church, because that was my entire experience, you know, because it's not just showing up at church. It's what I ate, it's what I wore, it's who I hung out with.

Meggan Hayes [00:46:47] And I can be super grateful that I am who I am and acknowledge the harm that was done and then try to give people informed consent so that they can benefit from the church and hopefully avoid some of that harm.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] The to the Mesa writes, I love Devil's Advocate John, even though sometimes it makes me a little crazy. I appreciate that. I'll just say that, you know about Richard Rohr and Falling Upward, the book Falling Upward, and the argument he makes that there's first half of life and second half of life, and that kids do better being raised in a system versus no system.

John Dehlin [00:47:30] Even if they end up rejecting the system, they're better off having been raised in a suboptimal system versus no system. And I think that's what we're talking about here, potentially, is, yes, we love where we've come to now, Meggan, having left the church and then I'm just asking, was it Mormonism that helped us get to the point where we could then really discover ourselves and build these awesome lives after?

John Dehlin [00:48:00] How much thanks do we have for the church for getting us to the point where we could make that breakaway versus contempt and anger for the church for deceiving us and hiding things from us and lying to us and profiting off of us? I think that's the tension. Anyway, thanks for allowing me to be philosophical about this. Should we roll the next clip?

Meggan Hayes [00:48:20] Absolutely.

General Conference Talks Defending Tithing

John Dehlin [00:48:22] All right. During World War II, my widowed mother supported her three young children on a school teacher's salary. That was meager. But I became conscious that we went

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:48:33] without some desirable things because we didn't have enough money. I asked My mother, why she paid so much of her salary as tithing. I have never forgotten her explanation. Dallin, there might be some people who

Video Clip 1 [00:48:48] can get along without paying tithing, but we can't.

Video Clip 1 [00:48:52] The Lord has chosen to take your

Video Clip 1 [00:48:54] father and leave me to raise you children.

Video Clip 1 [00:48:57] I cannot do that without the blessings of the Lord. And I obtain those blessings by paying an honest tithing. When I pay my tithing, I have the Lord's promise that he will bless us, and we must have those blessings

John Dehlin [00:49:13] if we are to get along. All right, Meggan, what do you thought? What are your thoughts on that?

Meggan Hayes [00:49:18] So Christopher Waddell played that for the students. That's why it's included. And he's just reinforcing that. So if you go to the next slide, it kind of explains it. First of all, it's a red herring, right? Because he raised two legitimate financial questions at the beginning of his talk. Number one, are church funds being managed well? Number two, should members continue to pay tithing when the church already has sufficient resources? His answer story about a widow who believed she needed to pay tithing to receive God's blessings. The questions are not. He's not answering the questions. He's still not answering the questions. Plus, that red herring is so cute.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] Um,

Meggan Hayes [00:49:59] we. When we owned our fishing business in Alaska, we would use herring as bait. So we would go out and catch them, and the kids would play with them, whatever, and then we would catch halibut with them. But it just reinforces the idea that without tithing, you're not going to be successful.

Meggan Hayes [00:50:17] And I. I don't think that's informed consent. I don't think it gives people the entire picture and allows them to choose. The church is at a place right now where it could tell the truth about its financ chances and give people the option.

Meggan Hayes [00:50:32] And it's. They're not doing that. They could say, you could donate to us, and here they could even say, here are 10 other charities that we have vetted that we've worked with, and you can donate directly to them. It's just a good principle to be paying, to be charitable, to give away 10% of your income to other people who need it. That's not what they're doing.

John Dehlin [00:50:56] Yeah, I think that would be the ethical thing to do. I think being fully transparent, having transparent finances. Recently, Fair came out with. With a talk about the faith crisis industry. Have you. Did you ever review that presentation, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:51:18] I haven't looked at it yet. I do know that it exists. It's like you're Part.

John Dehlin [00:51:21] You're part of it. What do you mean? You know, it exists. You're part of the. You're. You're part of the faith crisis industry, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:51:27] I am. No, I've seen that. The, like, thumbnails, but I haven't looked at it yet.

John Dehlin [00:51:32] Yeah, yeah. It's basically making the argument that we're all intentionally causing a faith crisis so that we can monetize it and get rich.

Meggan Hayes [00:51:44] Well, I mean, I guess if we were rich, they might have a leg to stand on.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] Well, I, you know, anyway, I. It. It. I think your point about transparent. I think it. You are absolutely right, Meggan. Transparency is the best thing. Informed consent is the best thing. And the church is so. And fear is wrong. Coercion's wrong. Manipulation is wrong. So they are being unethical. The question is whether they're doing more harm than good or whether members still benefit by following generally their counsel overall, even if they're not being given all the information or being coerced or manipulated. The question is whether members are still benefiting overall.

Meggan Hayes [00:52:32] Well, and I think that's such an individual thing. And that's why informed consent matters, because ultimately everyone has to decide for themselves. And are they being given the tools to do that? And I don't. The church isn't giving them to them.

John Dehlin [00:52:44] No, no, no, they're definitely not. All right, let's play the next clip.

Guest [00:52:51] Church resources are necessary to accomplish each of these sacred duties. For example, such as the schools and universities, which are supported by the church, as well as seminaries and institutes of religion all over the world. Now, another aspect of living the gospel includes providing meeting houses for the growing global church membership. As you can imagine, the approximately 22,000 meeting houses around the world are revenue consumers, not revenue producers. With a significant cost in the construction and upkeep.

Guest [00:53:20] And finally, virtually everything. Everything associated with a distribution center or access on the gospel library and tools apps is connected with living the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But in 1984, there were 31 operating temples. Today, not counting temples that are in operation, in design or under construction, we are currently on pace to have over 400 houses of the Lord in the near future. This describes our global missionary efforts, currently supported by more than 90,000 missionaries serving in over 500 missions. Well, church resources help make this sacred work possible. Church reserves also support missionary training centers.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] All right, what's your thoughts on that clip, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:54:05] So that's. If you go to the next slide, I'll tell you exactly. So he goes through. He spent a lot of time Doing that. But he still has not answered the questions. One, are church funds being managed well? Two, should members continue to pay tithing when the church already has sufficient resources? Listing expenses does not establish financial necessity. So from the widow's mite investment profits in 2025, approximately 25 billion. And between their six expense categories, they had six to between six and seven billion in expenses. So he's talking to these students, he's saying, look, we have all of these expenses, but he's not saying we also have so much money that those expenses are covered without us even having to dip into our excess tithing.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] Yeah, I mean it, it is a fact now that the interest from the church's investments annually can fund ongoing operations. So he's not admitting that, that. Yes, yes. He's listing BYU's, which are expensive, and temples and missions and meeting houses and Kurt McConkey. Right. And all the lawsuits and all the church employees, the technical infrastructure, all the real estate, like there, there are a lot of expenses, but we.

Meggan Hayes [00:55:28] More.

John Dehlin [00:55:29] The church never again needs another dollar of any members tithing. And they, they could cover their ongoing expenses even, even accounting for future inflation, they're covered. The church is now the equivalent of a perpetual motion machine where it can fund itself in perpetuity forever and never need another dollar to be put into it. It's escaped what's, is it zero, zero gravity or it's got escape velocity where it's escaped the gravity of planetary, you know, gravity. And it could go forever on very little resources.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] So the question is how much of it? The ethics I think we resolved it is unethical always to be deceptive, to not give informed consent and to coerce and manipulate. I think we could agree that that's wrong. I think we also agree that they're probably sincere in believing that members will benefit if they obey.

John Dehlin [00:56:32] But I think they also know that they don't need the money. So how much? I think the big question for me is do you remember Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit? Do you remember the dragon in the Hobbit? Is it a hobbit or Lord of the Rings where there's a dragon sitting, sitting on a big pile of gold and like what does the dragon want at the end of the day?

Meggan Hayes [00:56:56] Just the gold.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] More gold, more gold, more gold. How much do you think modern Mormon church leaders just want more gold, more wealth, money go up, wealth go up. And that's why they keep harping on tithing even when they know they don't technically need it. How much of it is. And this is something you can't answer. What percentage is it really believing it would be good for the members versus just. We want wealth. Just like the Dragon and the Hobbit. More money. More money, more money.

Meggan Hayes [00:57:28] Well, and it's interesting too because they mostly employ current temple recommend holders. Right. Especially when it comes to their money. So I don't think they even have the people power to disperse those funds in a way that will help people

John Dehlin [00:57:52] beyond what they can even manage.

Meggan Hayes [00:57:54] Yeah, that's what.

John Dehlin [00:57:55] So yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:57:56] Because they can't find enough current temple recommend holding people to even help them spend it.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] No, they're so wealthy. They don't. They. They cannot spend their money responsibly and wisely in a way that won't be waste or that. That won't cause more liability later that they'll regret.

Meggan Hayes [00:58:17] Right.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] I think that's part of. Honestly, I think that's part of why they've hit it too. It's like we, we've got so much money now, we don't know what to do with it. People are going to ask us what we're doing with it. We don't even know. We don't have the staff and the wisdom to manage all this wealth. We better freaking hide it.

Guest [00:58:35] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:58:36] Yeah. And that's why I think it would be amazing if they just came out and said, from this day forward, you're tithing. Here are 10 other places you can decide where to send it. This is what the Lord wants. Then people could still feel like they were giving it to the Lord and they could get help managing it from established charities who have a good track record.

John Dehlin [00:59:01] Yeah. All right. A couple comments. This is fun. I'm having fun. So. So. Chuck KV writes, don't forget the gold hoarding dragon in Voyage of the Dawn Treader. I think that's a Chronicles of Narnia reference. Does that sound right?

Meggan Hayes [00:59:20] You know, I don't know. People are probably gonna get me after that.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] Liz Awake614 says we need a. We need to place a bet. How angry will Jon get today? I don't think super rabid Angry John has come out yet today, but we'll see. Ryan Scott, PNW says it's Smog. Smog is the dragon, I think, in the Hobbit. Is that right?

Meggan Hayes [00:59:43] Yeah, I was going to say that, but then I was afraid I'd be wrong.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] So yeah, you were right, Meggan. And Ryan Scott says Smog just wants to take his nap and be left alone lying and sleeping on top of his pile. Of money. Right. A pile of gold. Is that right? Is that, is that the right reference?

Meggan Hayes [01:00:02] Yes. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] And then autistic grandma writes, if an evil act is the basis of a good act, does it absolve the initial act? Isn't conflating the church with good a bad binary? What do you think, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [01:00:18] Yeah, doing something good does not erase doing something bad. I, I do talk about that a lot on my own channel because people will say, like, oh, but he, you know, he was a friend of mine and he was my neighbor and he was so great. And I'm like, well, people are multifaceted and the church as a system is that way as well. So, yeah, we don't want to be binary. We want to be able to look at all the different things and hold them at the same time.

John Dehlin [01:00:41] Yeah. Artisan 1800 writes, where I live currently, there are so many white collar Mormons, it's not even funny. I am clearly not one of them. And yeah, that's been my experience wherever I've lived. The. If there was a med school, it would, it was overrepresented by Mormons. If there was a dental or orthodontic school, overrepresented by Mormons. If it's Harvard, the law school and the business school, overrepresented by Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:01:09] Mormons kick booty when it comes to white collar grad schools. They just do. Dan Vogel writes, they probably use tithing funds for their salaries. And I'll just say, yes, Dan Vogel, you are always right because you're Dan Bogle. But I'll also say that the current church budgets cover their salaries. And I think Mormon church employees on average are underpaid relative to the industry standards. And so it's, it's.

John Dehlin [01:01:39] They make way more money than, than they are. And I would say even, even as much. I, I believe that apostles, Mormon apostles are making easily 3 to 400,000 a year in total compensation or more. If you think about the fact that this is a multinational corporation, that's a $300 billion multinational corporation. You could argue that even the prophets and apostles are underpaid relative to the wealth and the power of the organization that they're managing.

Meggan Hayes [01:02:14] Right. If we look at it like a

John Dehlin [01:02:15] corporation, it is, it's. It's the corporation of the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Right?

Guest 3 [01:02:23] Right.

Meggan Hayes [01:02:23] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:02:24] You're being cynical. You're being snarky, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [01:02:26] A little bit.

John Dehlin [01:02:27] Exmo Ramo writes, the church in BYU would save millions of dollars if they paid. Didn't pay their athletes and only paid their coaches the same as a general authority. I mean, I think. I think BYU's coaches are very well paid, actually. And I think now BYU is paying its athletes quite well. And I don't even know what the point Exmo Ramos making because I don't think the church is trying to necessarily save money with its athletic programs or overall.

Meggan Hayes [01:02:59] No, no. Well, and I think. Where did I hear this? Where the athletic program at BYU is funded outside of the tithing revenue.

John Dehlin [01:03:09] I mean, that's like saying inside. That's like saying City Creek Mall wasn't built with tithing dollars.

Meggan Hayes [01:03:15] Yeah, they made it sound. What they made it sound like was it was like wealthy donors. But yeah, I'm sure it's all intermingled.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] That's just dumb. All right, next clip.

Meggan Hayes [01:03:25] Okay.

Guest [01:03:26] In 2021, the first presidency authorized the publication of a summary titled Caring for those in Need. There have now been five reports published which show a significant increase in our efforts as a church over the last five years. The first report in 2021 showed that just over $900,000 was expended through a variety of means, including fast drawing assistance, bishop storehouse orders, humanitarian projects, donated commodities, and other church welfare operations. The most recent report covering 2025 shows expenditures of $1.58 billion. This is an incredible number. And it's the equivalent of almost $4.5 million spent every day to care for those in need somewhere around the world.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] Checkmate, Meggan. The church is so humanitarian that it gives 1.5 billion a year of their own good heart and their own free will and. And charitable choice.

Meggan Hayes [01:04:29] Right. Well, the thing that stood out to me about that part of the presentation, if you go to the next slide,

John Dehlin [01:04:35] there's always the next slide with you, Meggan. There's always the next slide. You can't just give the church a break. I'm teasing.

Meggan Hayes [01:04:42] So I know. Give Brother Joseph a break. Wasn't that a. Who was that anyway? He made a little mistake. This is the guy who manages the church as well, too. You know, he's the presiding Bishop. He said that in 2021, they gave 900,000. In 2021, approximately 906 million was what the church donated. That's from their own report.

John Dehlin [01:05:06] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [01:05:07] He made a roughly 1,000 fold error in a presentation about church finances. I just thought it was kind of maybe some irony. There are church funds being managed well, when the presiding bishop is asking members to trust church financial stewardship. I'd expect the numbers in his own presentation to be. Be Accurate?

John Dehlin [01:05:22] Well, because I always. I mean, he just misspoke. Did he just misspeak?

Meggan Hayes [01:05:28] No, it was in his slide.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] Oh, the slide was. Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:05:31] What.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] What do you think about this argument that. That the church now gives 1.5 billion a year to humanitarian stuff?

Meggan Hayes [01:05:37] Like is that it's less than 1% of their. What is the actual precise wording that they use in the widow's mic? Because it's like not their total wealth but their increase or. Yeah, it seems like a big number. Right. Because when my electricity bill comes in and it's $400, I'm like, oh boy, that's a lot of money. Right. I don't even understand what a billion is. So, yeah, it seems like a lot of money, but it's the equivalent of me giving like a penny or something.

John Dehlin [01:06:09] It's really expensive. 9779 says less than 1%. Cute. Yeah. I also think that we have to be honest that before David Nielsen was a whistleblower with Ensign Peak and let the world know how wealthy the church was, it was paying.01% of its wealth to humanitarian causes. That that number just went up in response to the backlash of people finding out the church was so fabulously wealthy and hoarding the wealth. And then the only other thing I'll say is we don't know because the church isn't financially transparent. What. What is behind that number of 1.5 billion? And there I. There's a lot of speculation that like the church is counting member fast offerings and member donated time in service as a fuzzy way to come up with that number. Where again, it's really just counting the members generosity as its own when it could be doing a lot more itself.

Meggan Hayes [01:07:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:07:19] Is that right? Do I have that right?

Meggan Hayes [01:07:21] Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like, so there was a part in there. I didn't put it in because I, you know, trying to pare it down. I can't remember for sim or the next guy they talk about, this is how many hours the members donated and this is how much.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] Okay, Is that this?

Meggan Hayes [01:07:39] Let's see. Yeah. So now we're going to move on to EL Todd Budge.

Guest [01:07:43] He's.

Meggan Hayes [01:07:43] He's the next one in this little assignment of. Let's talk about tithing to not members of the church, to the young members of the church. Remember, this is all at universities. So the next person in the lineup is L. Todd Budge, first counselor in the Presiding Bishopric. Let's get the tape.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] Okay.

Guest 2 [01:08:05] While we describe our stewardship as administering in all temporal things, the Lord has declared that all things are spiritual. And not at any time have I given unto you a law that was temporal.

John Dehlin [01:08:21] Okay. All things are spiritual. Meggan. There's no temporal law.

Meggan Hayes [01:08:26] Right. Tithing. Tithing's not about money. I'm just trying to kind of show the consistencies between their speeches. I don't know if their speechwriters were, like, sitting at the lunch table next to each other while they were writing these, but there were a lot of stuff similarities. And that was just another way to say tithing is not about money.

John Dehlin [01:08:42] Okay. All right, let's go to the next clip.

Presiding Bishopric Answers Financial Questions

Guest 2 [01:08:46] Let me pause as a member of the Presiding Bishopric and answer a few other questions we are sometimes asked regarding the financial resources of the church. For example, are the church funds professionally managed? Who oversees their use? And given the wealth of the church, why should I pay tithes and offerings? Will my ties and offerings really make a difference?

Meggan Hayes [01:09:11] Okay, we've heard that. We've heard that from Christopher Waddell. So just another thing, like, their. Their talks are lining up.

John Dehlin [01:09:21] You're. And. And so are you. I. I'm trying to understand. Like, are you. Are you saying, news flash, there's correlation in the church and that they're talking points that gets sent to leaders? And then every. I mean, it reminds me of modern political shows where a political party has talking points and then every talk show host parrots the talking points of the political party. Right. Are you surprised at that, or are you just. Okay, just.

Meggan Hayes [01:09:48] Just highlighting it. Just highlighting it.

John Dehlin [01:09:50] That's fair. Okay, here's the next slide.

Meggan Hayes [01:09:52] Yeah. So who manages church funds? The question he asked, are church funds professionally managed? His answer? Yes. Financial professionals manage reserves under the Presiding Bishopric, but professional management does not establish responsible. Responsible management. Those are two, you know, definitely different things. And number two, who oversees their use? His answer. The Council on the Disposition of the Tides approves budgets and policies, and internal church oversight is not independent accountability. I just, like, in my mind, I just always have to break these things down because, like I've said so many times, the Mormon part of my brain still just wants to always take everything at face value. So it's good for me to pick it apart a little bit and just get a more nuanced picture than what they're giving.

John Dehlin [01:10:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what's your opinion on whether the church's money is well managed? Are you going to be covering that today?

Meggan Hayes [01:10:48] Well, I don't think it's very well managed because I haven't you talked about this, where, if they just followed the S&P 500, they'd make more money than they do right now.

John Dehlin [01:10:55] I think some years they're up and some years they're behind. But I mean, again, scoreboard, like, overall.

Guest 3 [01:11:02] Right.

John Dehlin [01:11:02] Fabulously wealthy. It's hard to argue that the overall they haven't. They may have a bad year, but overall, I think they're probably doing just fine.

Meggan Hayes [01:11:11] Right. But the management also is what we already talked about. Where. What are they doing with it? Well, they don't have the resources to actually use it in the ways that they could be to help people.

John Dehlin [01:11:23] Yeah. All right. Should we go to the next clip?

Why Pay Tithing Given the Church's Wealth

Meggan Hayes [01:11:26] Yes.

Guest 2 [01:11:28] Given the wealth of the church, why should I pay tithes and offerings? The law of tithing and the law of the fast are spiritual laws with promised blessings concerning tithing. The Lord said, prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. There are also significant blessings promised to those who live the law of the fast and pay fast offerings. In Isaiah we read, then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily, and thy righteousness shall go before thee. The glory of the Lord shall be thy rearward. Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer, thou shalt cry. And he shall say, here I am.

John Dehlin [01:12:26] All right, Meggan, thoughts?

Meggan Hayes [01:12:28] So this is him trying to answer, why pay when the church is wealthy? Right. Given the wealth of the church, why should I pay tithing, tithes and offerings, and two interesting things. He quotes Isaiah 58. In Kristin Yee's talk, she actually told the students that they should all go read Isaiah 58. Budge quotes verses 8 through 9, healing, light, and answered prayers. But verses 6 and 7 call for freeing the oppressed, feeding the hungry, and sheltering the poor. Isaiah 58 asks what we are doing for the poor. And Budge asks why we're still paying the church, which I think he's not really making a connection there. And then did he answer the question, why pay when the church is wealthy? His answer, because God promises blessings. Another red herring shifts from financial need to religious obedience.

John Dehlin [01:13:20] Yeah, yeah. All right. What would you rather them do and say? What do you think would be the most ethical thing for them to do

Meggan Hayes [01:13:30] and say to get up there and actually answer the question? Are the funds well managed? Well, here's what we did in the past. Here are the mistakes that we made. This is what we've done to correct it. These are people who, you know, with these Credentials that we've hired to help us. And in the future, if you still want to pay tithing to the church, that's amazing. And if not, here are some other places we suggest. I think that could be a win win for everybody because they can't spend it all right now, like we've talked about that. It's all going in there and then it's sitting and people are suffering.

John Dehlin [01:14:10] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Meggan, let's go to the next slide.

Guest 2 [01:14:17] We don't pay tithing because we can afford it or because the Lord needs it. We pay it because of our love for and trust in the Lord.

John Dehlin [01:14:29] Okay. We pay it. So again, that's that theme that we're doing it out of commandment and because we love the Lord.

Guest 3 [01:14:38] Mm.

Meggan Hayes [01:14:39] So if you go to the next slide, it's kind of my sum up. So when I was looking at these, what it reminded me of is the gospel topics essays and how they were then told seminary teachers to start incorporating those things. So this, the tithing campaign is what I like to call it, and I think it's about inoculation.

Meggan Hayes [01:14:57] Church leaders know members are asking questions about the church's enormous wealth, so they're getting out in front of those questions and supplying the answers they want members to have. They are not giving information for full, informed consent. Repeated themes across Yi, Wadell and Budge. Tithing as faith. Giving is framed as obedience, sacrifice, and trust in God. Promised blessings. The focus moves to what members receive spiritually by giving, caring for those in need. Humanitarian work is presented as evidence of the good donations accomplish. Sacred purpose. Church resources are described as serving God's work, not simply as money. The missing numbers. The talks do not provide a comprehensive, independently audited, churchwide budget.

Meggan Hayes [01:15:41] They don't go back in time and talk about the sec. They don't talk about what they've done to change or if they've even changed. They just. It's an inoculation campaign. And after the three talks in general Conference, and then these three, and they're going to be three more, there's still two members of the General Relief Society presidency and one member of the Presiding Bishopric who haven't spoken yet, but they're on schedule to do so.

John Dehlin [01:16:06] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [01:16:07] So, yeah, I just. I think it's a calculated campaign going to university age students to say, this is the group who we know is leaving right now, and part of it is because of the financial decisions that we've made. So let's do an inoculation campaign.

John Dehlin [01:16:26] Okay. And do you think it's going to work or not work.

Meggan Hayes [01:16:31] I mean, I think it will work for some people. I'm sure they'll do a survey a couple years from now and find out whether it's worked. I don't know. Like, the Internet just brings. People can get information outside of the church. And as soon as people, especially young people who are at universities learning to study, learning how to think critically, learning how to find information, I just don't think the church can stop them from doing it. So will the inoculation work? I, I mean, I'm sure it'll work for some people, but I think that the hemorrhaging of members, especially young people, will likely continue.

John Dehlin [01:17:11] Yeah, yeah. So I think I agree with you. It's damage control. I do think tithing is in decline. I mean, if membership is in decline in the, in the, in the United States and in the Western world, it has to be that tithing is in decline. I think tithing is in decline in a greater number than membership decline because not only do we have all the people leaving the church, but we have all the PMOs, all the people who no longer believe, but stay in church. And they're, I'm sure, paying less tithing as well. So I'm sure tithing is down. I'm sure they don't like it.

John Dehlin [01:17:49] I'm sure that they believe that members will benefit from paying tithing. But I also believe, at least subconsciously, if not consciously, they're like smog. They want massive wealth and they want to see the money continue in the number continue to go up. And I think they are not being honest. They're not giving financial transparency. They are being unethical. They are not answering the question. They are hiding the history, refusing to apologize, gaslighting the members, and they're trying to coerce and manipulate people to pay.

John Dehlin [01:18:22] And I don't think it's going to work. And I think this is a transparent, conspicuous effort to manipulate and to gaslight and I think it's going to fail. But it's kind of entertaining to watch and it provides good news fodder. So for that, kudos, Meggan, you provided us with a great hour of, of content and analysis.

Meggan Hayes [01:18:50] Someone in the, in the comments said if they were transparent, then everyone would see what they were paying for sexual abuse settlements. And I think, yeah, that would be one that would get people to stop. Like, oh, my tithing silenced a victim.

John Dehlin [01:19:05] Yeah. Exmo Ramo writes, I would love to hear church announce how much they pay out in sexual abuse settlements each year. Compared to charitable. Charitable donations, I think that would be amazing. I don't think they will. Outer Snarkness, thanks for the super chat. Love your YouTube channel. She writes. Just found out my previous bishop. This is, you know, this is a sobriety warning here.

John Dehlin [01:19:30] Outer Snarkness's bishop just previous bishop just unalived himself and said he gave himself to the church and God abandoned him. Broke her heart. The church harms, and I think that's a sobering reminder. Even though sometimes we can be jokey or ragey or, you know, ironic or sarcastic or even do devil's advocate, we should never forget that the church does real harm to real people in addition to the good that it does. And like you said, Meggan, I think you said it really well.

John Dehlin [01:20:02] It kind of depends on who you are that, that, that some people really do benefit from the church and some people are really damaged and harmed by the church. And unfortunately it's both. And everybody's got to figure out what the combination is for them and whether they think the church is ultimately an ethical organization or not.

John Dehlin [01:20:26] Snuggle Blanket 8840 writes, thank you for all you do to give us facts. Yes, Meggan, you do a great job providing us with facts. So thank you, Meggan, and thank you for our donor. R. Clinton Travis writes, if the principles of tithing is about taking care of people, then it should not matter where you direct those funds in order to get those blessings. I think you were making that point, Meggan, that the church could just as easily say, we're richer than God, we don't need your money, but here's a good list of charities that we vetted and you can still benefit from the law of tithing.

John Dehlin [01:21:03] But I don't think, Meggan, you tell me if I'm wrong. I don't think they think that you get the same blessings from Heavenly Father donating to the United Way or the red cross or water.org than you would by donating to the church that somehow God's fairy charitable. You know, tithing blessing dust isn't as large in quantity on your life if it's to a 501c3 charitable nonprofit that is in the church. What do you think?

Meggan Hayes [01:21:37] Yeah, but they could get a revelation. Maybe if we did like, you know, a march at conference time about letting people donate to other ethical charities, maybe that a revelation would come and then they could change it.

John Dehlin [01:21:53] I mean, but would heavenly, would heaven, would Mormon Heavenly Father ever say that to the church leaders?

Meggan Hayes [01:22:01] It depends on how much the social pressure was.

John Dehlin [01:22:06] You're so cynical, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [01:22:08] No, but it's. It's true. Like, I was just listening yesterday to Sam Young talking about. He was on Mormonism live, talking about his experience, and it's like the church caved when there was enough social pressure that they felt like they had to make a change, and the change was tiny. But they need that social pressure, and it's happened a lot of times. Right. So let's get some signs. Let's go to conference. Let's say, let us donate to charities who have the staff to actually distribute the money to people who need it. Let's stop letting that money sit there. God doesn't want to be viewed as smog. From the Hobbit.

John Dehlin [01:22:47] I love this quote. They're more smug than smog.

Meggan Hayes [01:22:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:54] From Matt's Custom Creations. More smug than smog. I mean, I. I do think there's a real problem. So as much as I'm playing devil's advocate today, I think the church's mass hoarding of wealth and deceiving the members and the IRS and the SEC is a major blight on their ethics and their morals and their moral standing. So. Yep. And there's no reason that in 2026, when the church is wealthier than most Fortune 500 companies, that they should be getting tax breaks and financial transparency and religious protection. It's literally just like you're. It's like the. The government is financing private secret corporations to just get fabulously wealthy with less accountability. It's not. It's not ethical. Why should the church get financial advantages to becoming more wealthy over your small mom and pop small business?

Meggan Hayes [01:24:00] Right.

John Dehlin [01:24:01] Or the open source foundation that has to be financially transparent and publish our 990s every year and face accountability for how we spend our money? Why should the church, now that it's wealthier than Heavenly Father, not have to have accountability and transparency and taxes? Why shouldn't the church pay taxes?

Meggan Hayes [01:24:25] Right. No. And I see people say that all the time, like, I'll do an episode about SEC or the church's finances, and they're like, just start taxing them. Make them be financially transparent and just start taxing them.

John Dehlin [01:24:37] Yeah. All right, Meggan, great work. Let's. We're like, I. I don't regret it. I'm not going to apologize for it. But we're already an hour and 20 in. The next story is one that I, I really enjoyed paying attention to. And I'm curious your takes on it. Take. Take it away with Dan McClellan.

Dan McClellan, Jimmy Snow, and the Joe Rogan Fallout

Meggan Hayes [01:24:56] All right, so Dan McClellan and Jimmy Snow. Jimmy Snow, for those who aren't aware, is an American atheist, YouTuber, commentator, and former Latter Day Saint. He's known for criticizing organized religion, particularly Mormonism, and advocating for LGBTQ rights, secularism, and reproductive rights. So the timeline is, on October 7th, Dan McClellan appeared on the Joe Rogan Experience. On October 9th, on Threads, Jimmy Snow publicly called for disclosure of whether or not Dan pays tithing to the Mormon church. And on October 14, Jimmy put out a YouTube video defending his criticism of Dan, including that he accused him of being a grifter. If he pays tithing to the church, and we'll get into all of this. And then on October 20, Dan wrote an article to explain whether or not he pays tithing. And that same day, Jimmy came out with a response. Just so people kind of understand the timeline there.

John Dehlin [01:25:57] Okay. And I'll just say really quickly. I've been on Jimmy Snow's podcast, and he is thoughtful, and he is, you know, relatively well respected amongst atheists. And I'm. I'm really interested to hear more. Should we go to the next slide? Okay. Okay. So what. What do we got here, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [01:26:18] So after Dan McClellan went on to Joe Rogan, people started asking him about. Because he doesn't talk about his personal beliefs publicly. So he posted. Because folks are saying, you will not hear about my personal religious beliefs on any social media, only my scholarship. When I say the data indicate that claim X is true or false, I am not saying it is my personal religious belief that claim X is true or false. So this Jimmy Snow posted this, and then he posted a response which is on the next slide.

John Dehlin [01:26:54] Okay, so Dan's saying what he's always said. So Dan obviously is Mormon stories. And he intentionally doesn't talk about his religious beliefs because he doesn't want it to get in the way of his messaging. And as someone who has talked about his religious beliefs and got excommunicated and has been demonized and has been marginalized by the. By believers and non believers because of. Of these things. I get why it's strategic and smart for Dan to do what he's doing, not just because he probably values his church membership, but also because I think he doesn't want to be discredited as an atheist or as a secular person or as a tbm. He wants to be able to reach the most amount of people as he can. What. What do you think? That's okay. Meggan, do you have an opinion about that?

Meggan Hayes [01:27:44] I think my opinion's pretty nuanced, and we can discuss it more as we Go through. Because we'll kind of. Yeah, we'll kind of see what this unfolds.

John Dehlin [01:27:50] Okay, so next slide.

Meggan Hayes [01:27:52] Yeah. So then Jimmy took that screenshot of Dan's, and then this was his response. He said, buy my deconstructions, events and content so you can deconstruct just like I haven't. So he's putting those words into Dan's mouth, You know, like he's saying, this is what he. This is how he's interpreting what Dan is saying. This is a lame excuse to hide that you are passing along the money you make off queers and skeptics to your anti skeptic and anti queer church. You are broadcasting your support and then slipping The Mormon Church 10% is the definition of a grift. And you shouting, my scholarship does not cover it. Put that in one of your responding to criticism videos. And then in parentheses, he put. He won't. So he, gosh, came out very, very strong against Dan.

John Dehlin [01:28:41] All right, I've already got feelings, but do we want to go the next one or do you want to respond to that first?

Meggan Hayes [01:28:47] Well, this was all in one post on X from Jimmy, so we can go to the next one.

John Dehlin [01:28:52] Okay, what's the next one?

Meggan Hayes [01:28:54] He also then said, also read, as in my professional life, I love queer people and women. It's only at church that I seek to destroy their rights. But I can't talk about it. Don't criticize my space Jesus context. Dan presents as a queer allied biblical scholar, but in his private life is an active Mormon who pays 10% tithing to that church, which is a queer hate orc. He won't talk about it because it destroys his credibility, plain and simple.

John Dehlin [01:29:19] Oh, my gosh, I've got strong feelings. Okay, Do I. I want you to go until you want to pause for us to have a conversation. Do we play the next clip or do you want to start talking about what?

Meggan Hayes [01:29:31] What, Jimmy, it's so hard to know when to. You know what? Let's listen to the next clip and then let's talk about it and then we'll go into Dan's response.

John Dehlin [01:29:39] All right, let's play the clip.

Guest 3 [01:29:42] Here's my argument. Dan McClellan is too smart to not know that many of the people buying his stuff would like to know about his tithing. And if you are intentionally withholding from people information that may change their mind on a purchase. Intentionally. There are people. There's information that would change people's minds on a purpose that doesn't occur to you, or it's not reasonable to expect. But when it is reasonable to expect, that is by definition grifting. Grifting is a very harsh word. I still mean it. You know what I mean? Like Dan McClellan. I don't want Dan McClellan to go away because he's been grifting. I think Dan McClellan hopefully hears this argument and goes, it's legitimate for a person to feel like that's grifting. And so I'm going to stop even the perception of grifting. And then I want Damaclean to go on to great success, tremendous success after disclosing.

John Dehlin [01:30:38] Huh. Okay. What are your thoughts, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [01:30:44] I. I am fairly certain that I have a different thought process on this today than I would have even a year ago. Definitely two years ago. And certainly right when I left the church. Right when I left the church, I would have been incensed. If I had bought something from dan and realized 10% of that went to the church, I would have been horrified. I would have been angry.

Meggan Hayes [01:31:13] And as a general rule, I try not to patronize businesses that I know. Like, I don't buy crumble cookies. I don't really like them that much. But also I. I try to avoid having my money go to tithing because if I'm going to donate to a charity, I want it to be one that I choose. So that's a personal, you know, policy that I have.

Meggan Hayes [01:31:35] However, now that I'm eight years out of leaving the church, I realize how much more nuance there is in it. Like, I came out of the church with a lot of black and white thinking, and I held onto a lot of that black and white thinking for a long, long time until I realized, you know, it's been probably in the past year even that I've gotten a lot softer about this just seeing what the black and white thinking has done, especially on the political stage, to where it's just not helpful to put people in a box and, you know, say Dan's paying tithing to the church, so now we can't support him at all.

Meggan Hayes [01:32:09] He's a grifter, like, using these really strong words. So will I probably support Dan monetarily if I know he's paying tithing? No, I won't. However, I don't think Dan is a dad. Dan is a bad person for paying tithing. And I think that's something that I wouldn't have been able to conclude, say, even a year ago or more.

John Dehlin [01:32:38] Okay, Well, I. I don't need to defend Dan, and I know we're going to cover Dan, his response, I'll just tell you, by the way, that wasn't just Jimmy Snow. That was Matt Dillahunty in that video clip. And Matt Dillahunty is, like, one of the world's leading atheist voices right now.

John Dehlin [01:33:04] Skeptic. He's brilliant. He's ethical. As far as I know, he is playing the role. Matt Dillahunty is playing the role now that. That Harris. Dan. Dan Harris. Is that right? Sam Harris. Sam Harris and Hitchens and Dawkins and Dennett used to hold in the early 2000s of, like, public atheists and public skeptics. So this is a really big stage.

John Dehlin [01:33:35] And so I. I just want to say that I get where Jimmy Snow is coming from in terms of. Of asking questions about the ethics of Dan paying tithing to the church when the church does harm. And I've been asking those questions for 20 years, because for my first 10 years as a Mormon Stories podcast host, I was paying tight. I was attending the church, sometimes donating to the church and definitely serving in the church and telling people I was an active attending member while I was doing Mormon stories and while I was seeing the LGBT suicide crisis and the way the church treated women, the way that the church handled child abuse.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] And I was torn up by the ethics of being in the church, staying in the church, telling people I was still a member of the church while I saw the harm the church was doing. And I was constantly asking myself, is it unethical to attend the church when you don't believe it's true and when you're seeing the fully true and when you see the harm that it's doing?

John Dehlin [01:34:56] And what I realized then was that it's complicated, that different people have different values, different motives, different desires. And I concluded that while I felt the anger that Jimmy feels on behalf of LGBT people and women and racial minorities and children, that I needed to be more respectful of different people's individual values and people's individual choices.

John Dehlin [01:35:34] Because it's easy to be black and white, but people's values and goals and priorities are so often nuanced that it doesn't do liberalism or progressivism good to be scorched earth, harsh, judgmental, burn everyone down. Call them grifters, call them liars, call them deceitful, that. That people's individual decisions are more nuanced and deserve consideration and respect. And that when liberals and progressives are so harsh that they're, like, burned out, anything that doesn't reach my purity test of progressive liberalism, burn it all the Fuck down. You know, I think that's the type of cannibalism where liberals are at their worst, where they cannibalize each other and make the movement so extreme that they create the backlash that created so much conservative backlash in our country today.

John Dehlin [01:36:40] And so I think Jimmy overreaches there. Without actually Talking about Deb McClelland and his own, you know, self explanations. I could just already tell you I think Jimmy overreach is there. I don't think he represents liberalism well. And I think liberalism cannibalizes itself and creates more backlash than it does whenever hearts and minds when it, it speaks in such harsh and extreme and uncharitable ways. That's my take.

Guest [01:37:12] Yes.

Meggan Hayes [01:37:13] And so when I was going to Rick's, I had a religion class and I do not remember the professor, but he was a hardliner. Like we, it was teachings of the living prophets, I think was the name of the class. And he taught us every like pet doctrine that he just loved. Like taking the sacrament with your right hand. Men should always wear white shirts, being clean shaven, like all of these things that he just knew people should be doing. And he would show us what prophet said it and why it was super important. All these nitpicky little things.

Meggan Hayes [01:37:48] And I just ate it up, right, Because I was like, this is the structure I need. I need to know exactly what I need to do. And then when I left the church, it was like I swum to the other side with that same type of zeal where it's like if I was listening to Mormon stories and someone said blacks instead of people of color, I was like, oh, they don't know anything.

Meggan Hayes [01:38:11] They don't know what they're talking about. It's like I would, I would internally discount someone because their language, you know, this purity test, their language wasn't as pure as I wanted it to be. And like I was doing the exact same thing I was doing in Mormonism. I was just doing it on the other side. Like the pendulum had swung. And it took me a while to realize how harmful that is and mostly to myself because then I'm limiting what ideas I get to hear and I'm limiting who I get to learn from and I'm limiting who I get to associate with because the test is too high.

Meggan Hayes [01:38:46] Nobody can hold uphold those standards. Nobody's language can be perfect and pristine all the time. So. And that's, that's where I have kind of ended up in a more middle position. And I, I think I'm still working to get There I'm still probably a little more to one side or the other. But yes, that black and white thinging, that the minute somebody does something that falls outside your realm of comfort or your belief system, that it's like they're all wrong and you're all right. There's just so much more in between those two stances. That is actually what makes life more whole and fulfilling and beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:39:33] I love it. Thank you, Meggan. The comments are coming in hot. I'll just share some of them. Zoe writes, he's privileged. So much so he doesn't want to be held accountable for personal beliefs. I don't, I don't like that characterization of Dan.

John Dehlin [01:39:50] Dan came on Mormon Stories and talked. He made it very clear what he thinks about mormonshurst truth claims, Mormon church prophets, like, without saying. Without saying. I don't think prophets are often prophets. I don't think the Book of Mormon's historical, like he said, more than enough for people to know where he stands. And what I think Dan is doing is he's.

John Dehlin [01:40:16] Well, I think we'll let him explain for himself. But one of the things I think he's doing that he doesn't explain is that I think he's managing his capital, his social capital to have the maximum impact. So many people want to say that, that, that, that, that it's about privilege. And somebody wrote to me, oh, here it is.

John Dehlin [01:40:38] Dory Moser9800 writes, John, if you had been a woman or LGBT or a survivor of csa, you might not be so nuanced and you might understand why those who are in those groups are, are so vapid. Okay, I'm going to say yes and no. I have absolutely agree. Margi and I have this conversation all the time. Margi's actually more angry at the church than me.

John Dehlin [01:41:01] I'm a lot more nuanced about the church than Margi. And Margi will say, john, it's because you're not a woman and you don't know what it's like to be harmed by the church like women were. So I'm going to say, yes, that's true. I'm not gay. I'm not a woman.

John Dehlin [01:41:16] I'm not a person of color and not lgbt. I, I don't know what it's like to be one of those groups in the church. However, I do know what it's like to be an intellectual or historian or, or a, a critic of the church and to be marginalized for those reasons. Those reasons. And I have been excommunicated. So don't tell me I don't know what it's like to be punished and harmed by the church. I do. And I've recorded 4,000 hours with those people who. People of color, women, LGBT people. I think I have a decent sense for what they experience in the church, and I think I've demonstrated decent empathy and loyalty and support and empathy for what they go through.

John Dehlin [01:41:59] I think it's more complicated than that. For me, it's about effectiveness. I'll never forget when Richard Bushman's book Rough Stone Rolling was sold at Deseret Book, and they had stacks of Rough Stone Rolling books up to the ceiling at all the Deseret books. And I thought, holy crap. Bon Brody's book has been around since 1945. Nobody's read it. And as apologetic as Richard Bushman's book is, Rough Stone Rolling, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of Mormons are now going to learn a more accurate view of Richard, of Joseph Smith's life because of Richard Bushman and because he's nuanced and because he's managing his capital more carefully.

Dan McClellan Responds to Critics and Backlash

John Dehlin [01:42:44] And what I want everyone to think about is effectiveness. Is Dan McClelland effective at helping people have a more accurate view of scripture and of the world? And the answer is clearly yes, because he's freaking on Joe Rogan.

John Dehlin [01:43:02] And so if he's effective at helping people see the world and scripture more accurately and by the way, of being more LGBT tolerant, He did a whole episode on Mormon stories that was pro lgbt, right? Like. And. And. And he's said what he needs to say about Book of Mormon historicity for everyone to know where he stands on Book of Mormon historicity. He. He is managing his capital to maximize his effectiveness. Do not accuse him or others of being privileged so that they are insensitive to the needs of marginalized groups. It's the opposite. It's people who care about marginalized groups who are managing their capital to have the biggest impact, not just in the Mormon Church, but in other churches. And that's without even hearing him defend himself. Meggan, tell me I'm wrong. Push back. I seriously push back. You disagree?

Meggan Hayes [01:44:02] Here's the thing. When I learn something about the church and I feel anger towards the church, my immediate reaction is burn it the fuck down. Right? It just needs to go away. If everybody stopped paying their tithing and everybody. You know, I go through all these things in my mind, but that's just not realistic.

Meggan Hayes [01:44:21] The church is here, and it's here to stay for who knows how long. But at Least in my lifetime. And everyone in the chat. Right. And so how do we affect change because the church isn't going anywhere. How do we each, on our own personal level, affect change so the church has less harm? And that is going to look different for me, it's going to look different for you, and it's going to look different for Dan McClellan. And the same way that John, you can't understand what it's like to be a woman in the church. You can't understand what it's like for me to have been a woman who was sexually assaulted when I was going to Rick's.

Meggan Hayes [01:45:01] I can't understand what it's like to be Dan in the church and have his platform and say the things that he does and try and maintain his membership so that he can be a safe place for LGBTQ people. You know what? People ask me quite often why I live in Texas. They're like, what if one of your daughters gets pregnant and needs an abortion? And I'm like, you know what? We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. However, my house is a safe place for LGBTQ people in Texas, period. That's why I'm here. It's not because it's easy. It's not because I believe in the politics of Texas.

Meggan Hayes [01:45:38] It's not because I get along politically with most of my neighbors. It's because I want to be a safe space. And it's a hard position to hold. And I can't do what Dan's doing, but I'm glad he's doing it.

John Dehlin [01:45:52] I love it. Okay, let's keep going. I'll just share. JC writes, But, John, that is why Dan is acting like a coward and I was brave. Look, you. I. I appreciate that you feel like you're complimenting me, and I. I appreciate the kind words. And I do think those of us who are social media influencers in the Mormon ex Mormon space, there is a level of bravery that comes with that. I don't see myself as more brave than Dan McClellan, and I don't think he lacks bravery. I think to do what he does living in Salt Lake county and to do it so effectively and to go to church every Sunday is incredibly brave.

John Dehlin [01:46:37] And to go on Joe Rogan is incredibly brave. And to publish national books criticizing the Bible with a world of evangelicals coming at him is incredibly brave. And I do not think Dan McClellan lacks bravery at all. I think he's incredibly brave, and I don't think he's a coward by being diplomatic. And nuanced and managing his credibility by not talking and maximizing his effectiveness by not over disclosing his personal beliefs. So, anyway. All right, let's go. Let's go to what? Dan. Dan can now defend himself.

Meggan Hayes [01:47:20] Yes. Yeah. So he wrote a incredible essay, and the link will be in the show notes. Everyone can go read the whole thing. But part of it he said, because some folks in my audience have reached out in good faith to express concerns and ask for clarification, I thought I'd share a bit about my decision to tithe. I don't fault anyone for having a negative reaction to learning that I pay tithing to an institution that still harms marginalized, minoritized, and oppressed groups in a variety of ways. And I don't think it's a good use of my time to try to talk people out of feelings like that.

John Dehlin [01:47:56] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [01:47:57] I just. I just thought that was. He's acknowledging that people finding out could have been shocking, that they likely had a lot of feelings about it. Likely not all of those feelings. Positive. And he's just saying, you are. You can have your feelings.

John Dehlin [01:48:12] I love that.

Meggan Hayes [01:48:13] Something. Yeah. That the church doesn't. I didn't learn how to have my feelings when I was a member, so him saying that, I think that's huge.

John Dehlin [01:48:20] I love it. He's not overly defensive. He's not trying to tell people, don't feel the way you feel. He realizes there's going to be explosive feelings, and he. He just says, I'm here for it. Let's lean into it. Feel your feelings. It's a great role model for how the church should handle and criticism and disagreement.

Meggan Hayes [01:48:40] Like, it's not his. It's not his. It's not Dan's job to stop our feelings, and it's also not his job to manage them now that we're having them.

John Dehlin [01:48:47] And it's a recognition that he's in a. He's in a difficult space. Like, overreacting with defensiveness when you're in a very polarizing place is just drama. Like. Like you're. If you're going to get a microphone and speak on the Internet and be successful, like, show that you have thick skin and realize there's going to be strong feelings and don't act defensive and create more drama by, like, acting like you're being persecuted. I love it. All right.

Meggan Hayes [01:49:16] Right. Because he could have come out and just said, you know, just called Jimmy names and I mean, I. I don't think Dan would ever do that, but he could have. He could have, like, oh, this dummy. He doesn't know what he's talking about. And, no, he's. He's coming out in a way that we. I expected Dan to respond.

John Dehlin [01:49:32] And Dan's not just responding to Jimmy. He's responding because there have been all sorts of. Of ex Mormon and. And other secular commentarists scorching Dan for paying tithing and still attending church and not over disclosing his personal beliefs.

Meggan Hayes [01:49:50] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and that's been ongoing for as long as Dan has had a voice, but, yeah, it just has been heightened since he went on Joe Rogan.

John Dehlin [01:49:58] Yeah. All right, let's go to the next slide.

Meggan Hayes [01:50:00] So he goes on to say, but when the need was there, the church fed our struggling family. Tithing is one of the two main sources of funding for that program. I am not paying tithing because I think I need to pay the church back, of course. But I have known many individuals and families over the years who, like my own family, have been able to keep adequate food on their tables because of the bishop's storehouse, including members of marginalized and vulnerable groups. And I think that is a valuable program that merits support.

John Dehlin [01:50:26] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [01:50:27] This part I kind of went back and forth about, because I, too, have benefited from that program. Not in my family of origin, because my dad would never have accepted what he called charity. But when my kids were little, there were a couple of times where we went to the bishop and asked for assistance and got food. There were times when we went and they told us no and wanted to look through our cupboards and go through our financials. But there were times when we benefited. However, I don't know that. I mean, that that program could run, like we said, in perpetuity. So I don't think Dan's tithing is affecting that program anymore, although I do see the connection that he's trying to make.

John Dehlin [01:51:03] When I went to byu, I had a regular tuition scholarship the first two years, and then I applied for what's called the Edwin S. Hinckley Scholarship, which provided tuition and, like, books. And it had a clause in there that said, we expect you to pay that tuition back once you're wealthy and successful.

John Dehlin [01:51:23] And I thought. I've been thinking about that a lot. And I think there's nothing wrong with his impulse of saying the church was there for me and my family when we needed it, and I want to pay it back because I want to, number one, show gratitude, and number two, have the church be there for other families, which, undeniably, we may all disagree on whether the church is doing enough. I don't think any of us are going to argue that the church doesn't provide humanitarian support for its members across the world at some level. And if Dan wants to express thanks and gratitude for the support he received, I think that's a good impulse.

John Dehlin [01:52:06] And if he even wants to pay it forward so that other people can benefit from that as well, I don't think there's anything wrong with that per se, or at least with that impulse personally.

Meggan Hayes [01:52:17] Yeah, I mean, their potato pearls are pretty good.

John Dehlin [01:52:22] When I was growing up in Houston, it was a peanut butter plant.

Meggan Hayes [01:52:26] They still have it.

John Dehlin [01:52:27] Okay. Yeah, there were peanut farms and then peanut butter plants. What was it where you were growing up? Do you know what the farm was in your local area?

Meggan Hayes [01:52:34] They actually had a cattle farm when we lived in Brigham City. We had to. They called it the Steak Ranch. We had to go out there one time and like a buffalo had gotten in with the cows or something. Yeah, but I know, like I had some of my. One of my siblings in laws did their senior mission at an almond where they had almonds. The church grew almonds.

John Dehlin [01:52:54] Interesting. Yeah, well, I think I, I actually that's one of the things that I always liked about the church was that it strove to be self sufficient in terms of how it provided aid and support to its members, and that it tried to walk that balance of providing economic, financial, material support for its members, but also encouraged them to. To not live off the dole and to try and become self sufficient. I. That that aligns with my values. I think you have to thread that needle of providing support and having a social safety net, but also not encouraging dependence.

Meggan Hayes [01:53:31] Yeah. And I also. Well, this isn't something I don't think the church could even get into, but there are people, and I have to remind myself of this, that will always need assistance for one reason or another. Right. Like there are people who can get up and do things and be self sufficient, and there are those who really never will be.

John Dehlin [01:53:50] Yeah, for sure, for sure. Mentally ill people, for example, that never will never be able to hold down a job. Yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree. But you gotta thread the needle, right? You can, you can be too harsh, too strict, too uncaring, and you can be too giving and undermine people's efficacy. You just got to find the balance.

Meggan Hayes [01:54:12] Yeah, well. And so I listened to a totally faithful podcast. It doesn't have a lot of listeners, and one of the guys who hosts it, it's called the Words of the Prophets podcast. He was a bishop for a long time, and he actually said on there that when he was. I think it was Wisconsin, his wife was the. In the Relief Society, and when people had a food need, she just took them to the food bank because he said going through it was faster than going through the church.

Guest [01:54:34] And.

Meggan Hayes [01:54:35] And I was like, oh, interesting. So I think sometimes there are hiccups for whatever reason, because maybe they didn't have a bishop storehouse, and so going to the store and then getting a refund or something. But, yeah, it's not always working as seamlessly as it does in areas where there is just a storehouse where you can go to and you have a bishop who's not gonna, you know, get into your personal life too much to let you go there and get some food.

John Dehlin [01:55:01] Yeah. All right, let's go to the next. Next clip from Dan or the next text.

Guest [01:55:07] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:55:07] So he goes on to say, these are obviously not things I can share without coming across as having some kind of savior complex. And no doubt many are convinced that's precisely my rhetorical goal. But the point really is to share experiences that I've had that lead me to feel like my activity and even my former employment in the church have made things better for some of the people around me, whose names and faces I know who are in the crosshairs of the church's oppressive heteronormativity and misogyny. That has been a factor in my decision to pay tithing, knowing that I can utilize my presence in the church and my growing platform for the benefit of those inside and outside the institution.

John Dehlin [01:55:46] Okay, thoughts on that?

Meggan Hayes [01:55:48] Well, I think that's what we were getting at is that if he stopped paying tithing accompanied with his platform and didn't qualify for a temple recommend, how much influence could he have among the very faithful members? Like, those are red flags for a faithful member. And are they going to allow his kids to be in Dan's Sunday school class? If he doesn't qualify for a temple recommend, it just shrinks his sphere of influence within the church if he doesn't check those boxes that the church insists on people checking to be considered worthy.

John Dehlin [01:56:27] And I'll just add, he literally wrote the words, the church's oppressive heteronormativity and misogyny. Like, he's saying the quiet parts out loud. He's not criticizing the brethren, which is the, you know, stepping on the third rail or touching the third rail, but he's. He's calling out that the. That he disagrees with the church's LGBT policies and, and policies on women. And I think he also is against the Church's historical racism. Like, he's aligned with our values in every possible way, and he's just fighting the good fight from within. And he's benefiting from association with the Church in some ways that he feels like is good for him and his family and good for him. And

Guest 2 [01:57:14] I.

John Dehlin [01:57:14] You know, my biggest concern is that if he gets too popular and too outspoken, he will be excommunicated. And at that point, it could limit his influence. But he, he's. Any truth is, he might be on track for that. Right.

John Dehlin [01:57:31] Like, certainly on track for that. But. But as of now, you know, it took me 10 years to get communicated right. I started Mormon stories in 2005. I didn't get excommunicated until 2015. And I did cross that line. And Natasha Helper did cross that line. Bill Real did cross that line. Nemo did cross that line. When you basically criticize the Brethren, then you cross the line. And Dan hasn't done that yet. So good for him, because now he's more effective than me. He's more effective than all of us. He's getting a bigger platform than all of us because he's managing his capital effectively and doing it from within.

John Dehlin [01:58:13] Do you have a prediction on. On if and when you think the Church will excommunicate him, or do you think he's going to be able to skirt it long term?

Meggan Hayes [01:58:21] I don't know. He has such a big platform. I think it would be very public for the Church. Like, it wouldn't be a great PR move. However, if he criticizes the Brethren, we do know that that is their. That's the point at which they like to bring the hammer down. So I don't know right now, I think they're probably just trying to stay out of it because they don't want the PR backlash.

John Dehlin [01:58:47] Yeah. If we base it on the Church's past, he will be excommunicated at some point if we. And that would be my prediction unless the Church has changed. So my prediction is unless the Church has changed or will change in some fundamental way, he will be excommunicated. If he doesn't get us communicated, it's because the Church has made a fundamental change, which I would celebrate well.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:13] And maybe his situation will change and he'll leave the Church. I mean, we don't know what's going on. We don't know his reasons for staying. We don't know what his family life looks like because he is keeping that to himself, which he has every right to do.

John Dehlin [01:59:26] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:26] So maybe he'll walk out on his own. We don't know right now. He's doing what's best for him.

John Dehlin [01:59:32] Absolutely. Really quickly, Michelle, your Bell 17 writes. Excited for the RFM event this weekend. Looking forward to meeting you. Both. Need to practice a karaoke song. We forgot to plug that. Meggan. Just for those who don't know what she's talking about.

John Dehlin [01:59:48] This Sunday at 7. Sorry. At 5pm in Salt Lake City, we're doing a celebration of radio free Mormons. Ten years as a podcaster, YouTuber. Five o' clock is when the food arrives, if you want to come eat and enjoy a meal. Like 110 people have signed up so far. We've got room for like 150, so there's still some seats left. It's 75 bucks. The venue was like seven grand. And that's where the money's going. And then 25 per person is going to Cafe Rio. The rest of the money goes to rfm. But if you want to come karaoke with us, meet Meggan, meet me. Meet Bill.

John Dehlin [02:00:29] Sorry, not Bill. Meet Randy and Colby and Rebecca and Radio Free Mormon and Julie Hanks and a bunch of cool people and influencers. And if you want to build community with other people like us, we would love to see you. The way to register, there are still seats left. I think we're going to close registration after today. Go to MormonStories.org RFMCcelebration and there's still some seats left. You can also live stream it. You have to buy a ticket to live stream it, but if you can't attend, you can live stream it. And if you don't want to pay for the food, there's a reduced price and you can show up not for the food, but just for the event.

John Dehlin [02:01:14] And again, you can get those tickets@mormonstories.org rfmcelebration also tonight, 7 o', clock, I'm having rfm in the studio doing a live stream. And if you want to join with me to interview RFM and Wendy, his partner, we welcome you. It's a busy day today at Mormon Story Studio. Meggan, when do you get here, by the way?

Broader Reflections on the Dan McClellan Controversy

Meggan Hayes [02:01:36] My flight leaves Houston Sunday morning at 9am so.

John Dehlin [02:01:40] Oh, my gosh. Why don't you come party all weekend with us?

Meggan Hayes [02:01:44] I know. No, my. My daughter is throwing a Halloween party at my house Saturday night, so I promised her I would wait till after that to leave it all. It's all going to work out.

John Dehlin [02:01:53] Although Parties won't be as fun without you. To be honest, I'm not partying like I'm not going to be attending anything. But let's perpetuate the stereotype that ex Mormon party, shall we?

Meggan Hayes [02:02:02] We're all going to be hungover at RFM's thing and even those of us who don't drink.

John Dehlin [02:02:09] That's right. Like me and you. Okay, let's go to the next clip.

Guest 3 [02:02:13] I think the drama is over because I. Well, I'm just going to say here at the very top, I am satisfied. For those of you who don't know, there have been a little bit of fights going on. The main thing that there hasn't been is a fight directly between me and Dan McClellan. I basically, after his appearance on Rogan, felt now this is a sign that things I was worried about before may be more worrisome. I'll admit, when it immediately happened, some of the things I posted on threads were angrier than I have found myself the days after. And also, I, like any human, have mistaken people who came to his defense without his request.

Guest 3 [02:02:53] I've allowed that to build up some of the resentments I was feeling probably in his direction. But already a couple of days ago, I had noticed that. And so to remind you, I had three things that I wanted Dan to acknowledge and then I drop it. I always said that the third one's not as important to me. I'm going to give you all three. Only one of them has he done, but he does it so thoroughly that actually I'm not even as concerned about number two. But number one was Dan. I'm aware that you tithe because of information I had received in the past. You need to disclose that publicly and allow people to decide for themselves whether or not that affects their desire to support you.

Guest 3 [02:03:37] Number two was Dan. You should validate the feelings of those who feel betrayed by you going on Rogan. You don't have to agree that they're seeing everything right, that their position that they are correct, that that is worse than it is good. But validate their feelings. And then three, you should validate the feelings of those who worry that your scholarship can be influenced by your Mormonism. Three was the one I didn't care about. Dan has now done what I will describe as an extremely decent thing. And I'm going to show it to you.

John Dehlin [02:04:09] Okay. And you stopped. Go ahead, Meggan.

Guest 3 [02:04:12] What.

John Dehlin [02:04:12] What did you want to say about that?

Meggan Hayes [02:04:14] Well, that was just the. It was just such an awesome exchange between someone who's still in the church and someone who has left the church. So Jimmy called him out. A lot of people called him out, but Jimmy called him out publicly on a pretty big platform. Dan came out publicly and voiced his feelings and Jimmy said thank you. Yeah, like what an amazing discourse.

John Dehlin [02:04:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's, you know, I'll just add that number one because I in the past had been attacked by fellow ex Mormons that I loved and who were friends and who I supported. And I realized that so often what happens is somebody gets, gets notoriety in the Mormon, ex Mormon public media space and then for whatever reason sometimes they lose notoriety or relevance or credibility and they miss the eyeballs and the attention that they had. And so the way that they generate more relevance and credibility and notoriety is by attacking other creators and by kind of clout sharking or you know, cannibalizing other influencers that used to be their friends, that used to be their allies, that used to be their supporters because they're angry or bitter that their relevance has, has declined or they're just trying to click bait, get attention again.

John Dehlin [02:05:44] I think that's our most damaging and self defeating impulses. So I've got a general rule. I don't care what an ex Mormon influencer does. I'm not going to look for opportunities to grandstand about other ex Mormon creators just to get clicks. I'm going to have empathy and kindness and just generally speaking, whether it's in or out of the church, I'm going to go for systems over individuals and I don't want my Mormon story's success or failure to be around always looking for an excuse to create conflict and drama with other apologist creators or ex Mormon creators. I just don't want to be in that business.

John Dehlin [02:06:30] I'd rather shut down than like have my success be built on attacking other creators for drama. And I'm not saying Jimmy does that or was doing that, but those are the vibes that I felt that it's just like here's a chance.

John Dehlin [02:06:49] Dan McClellan is riding a wave of popularity. He's on Joe Rogan. Here's a chance to go after him and to create conflict and drama. Again. I'm not saying Jimmy did that, but that's the impression that I get based on my past trauma with people doing that with me. And I just going to say I don't like that. I don't think we should cannibalize each other. That doesn't mean we give a pass to bad behavior. If there's really deeply unethical or troubling behavior where a creator has really abused or harmed people. I want to talk about it, but I'm certainly not going to do that over nitpicky things that just create drama. Right.

Meggan Hayes [02:07:30] So, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:32] Do you have a reaction to that or a thought on that?

Meggan Hayes [02:07:34] Well, I have also been called out by another ex Mormon creator quite publicly. And yeah, it was really hard and I responded privately. I didn't bring it out in the open. And I did talk to people close to me about it because it was very hurtful. And so I understand not wanting to do that. And actually, people compliment me quite often about how when I do talk about Mormon pro LDS creators who've said something terrible, they're like, how do you stay so calm when you do it? And I think it's just part of that, not wanting to add drama, just wanting to offer people another lens for their deconstruction instead of saying, you know, this person's such a dummy, or which I do think those things.

Meggan Hayes [02:08:22] You know, I get angry and I get snarky and I get snide and I do all of those things. But when I'm doing an episode, I want to keep it as measured as possible because I just want to break down the arguments and not the person.

John Dehlin [02:08:37] Yeah. I think the attent. The extent to which we're fighting each other as ex Mormon creators, or the extent to which we're attacking Jacob Hansen or Cardinalis or Maddie Packer or Jasmine Rapey. The, the. The extent to which we're attacking them as creators, in my opinion, we're missing the true important conversation, which is to what extent does the church harm people and to what extent should the church do less harm and do more good? And what truth should all the members be learning? I just don't want to get distracted from what our core mission is as well.

Guest 2 [02:09:19] Right.

Meggan Hayes [02:09:19] Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Like, if I'm taking apart a video, which I don't do very often, that Ward Radio did, it's because I want people to be able to see the things I couldn't see when I was a member. Right. Like, let's look past a little bit, if you can, the way that they present it, and let's talk about what it is that they are presenting.

John Dehlin [02:09:41] Yeah, yeah. So other than that, does Dan. I'm just, just to respond to Jimmy, does Dan have an obligation to tell people he pays tithing? I don't think so. He, he, he. Everyone knows he's an active attending member. He said that when he came on Mormon Stories. He hasn't hit it. He doesn't pretend. And I think that's all the disclosure he owes anyone, if he owes anyone that at all.

John Dehlin [02:10:05] I'm reminded of Carolyn Pearson. I don't know how much he knew Carolyn Pearson, but she, you know, and Jenna Reese is another example. The journalist Jenna Reese, Carolyn Pearson and Jenna Reese openly were known as church attending Mormons who also were on record as saying, I don't pay tithing. And I, I do respect that, but I don't know to what extent they owe us all that. But I do like it when people take that stance of I'm going to attend but not pay tithing. And they say that publicly. I do respect it. I'm not sure they owe it to us. The second is, does he owe sensitivity to Rogan haters that people are gonna have feelings about him going on Joe Rogan?

John Dehlin [02:10:49] I think that's reasonable. I do think Joe Rogan has platformed a lot of unhealthy people. Do you think that it was. Do you, do you. What are your views on the argument that you shouldn't go on Joe Rogan because he's platformed too many problematic people? What's your opinion on that, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:11:09] That seems like the black and white thinking I'm trying to get away from. If Dan can go on there and say something measured. Think of all the people who listen to Joe Rogan who never hear that kind of stuff.

Meggan Hayes [02:11:20] It's like, if it's, it's the burn it down mentality where it's like, let's just burn Joe Rogan to the ground. Well, that's not going to happen. So how can we do the most good with what the reality is? People like Dan can go on there and be calm and kind and intelligent, highly educated.

Meggan Hayes [02:11:39] And the people who listen to Joe Rogan are going to be like, who's this guy? Oh, wait, what is he saying? You know, where they probably normally wouldn't hear what Dan has to say because he wouldn't come up in their algorithm.

Meggan Hayes [02:11:51] So, yeah, I don't, I don't think we can burn anything to the ground that we don't like. We have to find ways to work within the system that we are presented.

John Dehlin [02:12:01] Yeah, I agree. I, There's a, there's a comment Judy Helm Wright is saying, please stop interrupting Meggan when she speaks. I, I think I'm waiting till you're done speaking. So I don't, I don't know. I appreciate the people.

Meggan Hayes [02:12:20] Yeah, I don't. Maybe I should interrupt you every once in a while. But I haven't felt like you've interrupted me, so then it would just be me interrupting you, which would be weird.

John Dehlin [02:12:28] Well, I do. I don't want to interrupt, and I just. If I am, I. I'm trying not to. So anyway, that's my response. Judy. The final thing I'll just say is, is Dan Vogel's in scholarship influenced by Mormonism? The fact that the church excommunicated, you know, Brent Metcalf and. And David Wright, like people that were asking the church to use historical criticism to apply to the Bible in the Book of Mormon. There's no universe where Dan's scholarship is being influenced by Mormonism. So, I mean, I can see in theory why Jimmy is concerned about that. But anybody in the know would know that Dan McClellan is stepping far outside the. The church and its doctrine and theology and its scholarship and its practices with his scholarship. So Jimmy just doesn't know what he's talking about there?

Meggan Hayes [02:13:24] No, no. When I was a believing member, if I had heard Dan McClellan say that the Adam and Eve story is just fiction, I would have been like, what the hell? No, it's not. That's. That's the temple man. You know, I would have. I would have not considered that as Mormon doctrine.

John Dehlin [02:13:41] Yeah. Yeah. Dan is arguing against the literal Adam and Eve. He's arguing against a literal Tower of Babel. He's arguing against a literal global flood and Noah and the ark story, against orthodox fundamentalist interpretations, literalistic interpretations of the Bible. He's arguing against all the homophobic interpretations of the Bible. Like, Dan is not influenced by faithful Mormonism in his scholarship, and no one who knows anything about these things would ever confuse it as such. Yeah. He's a gift to us all. And I have zero jealousy and only praise and admiration for Dan McClellan.

Meggan Hayes [02:14:31] Yeah. Because when I'm having a question about the Bible, because I haven't put the time in that Dan has, I can be like, what? You know, there are four or five people and Dan's one of them. What does Dan say about this? You know, I could do a year of research, or I could listen to Dan for 10 minutes and then get into the other stuff that I need to talk about.

John Dehlin [02:14:51] Yeah. Yeah. Amen. All right. Well, thanks for covering that. On to the next story. Tell us about Mormons by the numbers, Meggan.

Survey on Mormon Political and Social Attitudes

Meggan Hayes [02:15:01] Well, a new survey has come out. What the 2026American Values Survey reveals about Latter Day Saints. So Mormons came up in it. So we're just going to look at a few of the Tables that came out in this survey. It's the PRRI.

Meggan Hayes [02:15:15] I can't remember what that stands for, but 2026American Value Survey came out October 20th. So just a few days ago. Okay, so, yeah, this One is figure four. Changing views of Trump over the last two years among 2024 Trump supporters, biparti, religion and key demographics. So I put the arrow down where it says Latter Day Saints and it says 50% now say that.

Meggan Hayes [02:15:40] Let's see. He percent who say their opinion of Donald Trump has mostly changed for the worst. 50% of latter day Saints, which I think is quite a big change from what it was. And then 40. Sorry, I can't. Let me pull this up bigger. It's hard for me to see it on my screen.

John Dehlin [02:15:59] Tell me if you need me to read something.

Meggan Hayes [02:16:01] Yeah, just the. The other percent. 50. And then it has two. And then. Is that 48? 48, yeah, yeah, 48%. He's changed. It says he's changed over the years for the better. So it actually seems like Mormonism is pretty split down the center whether they think he's gotten worse or better.

John Dehlin [02:16:17] Okay. All right. So Mormons, half. Half of active faithful Mormons in 2026 think that. That, that their opinion for Donald Trump has changed for the worse, and half think it's changed for the better. Is that what it's saying?

Meggan Hayes [02:16:41] Yeah. And 2% skipped the question.

John Dehlin [02:16:43] So half of active Mormons in the US have had their opinions of Donald Trump improved over the past few years. Is that. Is that what it's saying?% who say

Meggan Hayes [02:16:58] their opinion of Donald Trump has mostly changed for the worse or the better. Yeah, their opinion had wild.

John Dehlin [02:17:06] That I could be. And I'm not saying that to be partisan. I'm just looking at overall voting patterns in the United States. I guess that's not wild. Well, maybe it is, because right now, as current polls have Donald Trump at his lowest popularity ever and even. Even around the January 6th riots kind of time frame, and they're saying historically low popularity and favorability ratings for a president in a second term at midterm time, as ever. So the fact that half of Mormons had their opinions of Trump improved by the past couple years is, I guess, it's kind of wild.

Meggan Hayes [02:17:56] Yeah, because they're not following what. What the national trend is.

John Dehlin [02:18:00] Now, having said that, if I'm looking down on this chart, Republicans Overall, 61% of Republicans have said their opinions of Trump have improved. So in that sense, the church is lagging behind Republicans overall. And Christian nationalism and white evangelical Protestantism. So I mean, the church is less Trump friendly than Republicans generally and Christian nationalists and white evangelical Protestants, but still less. More Trump supporting than the rest of America. Is that what we're reading?

Meggan Hayes [02:18:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, it's just interesting to look at like where they're. Yeah. How, how Mormons interpret politics and what, what they're finding.

John Dehlin [02:18:55] Okay, all right. This is fun. This is interesting. What's next?

Meggan Hayes [02:19:00] So this one is views on immigration views. It says Figure 41, views on great replacement theory by religion. Percent who agree that, quote, immigrants are invading our country and replacing our cultural and ethnic background. End of quote. And Latter Day Saints fell in at 39%.

John Dehlin [02:19:21] Okay, so this is, you know, I think people that, that, I guess generally this great replacement theory is associated with white nationalism, with, with, with white supremacy, honestly, and kind of almost like eugenics and anti Semitism and that sort of thing. Historically, it's this concern that the white race is being diluted by people of color and we need to maintain white culture and the white race.

John Dehlin [02:19:59] And what I'm seeing is that overall the United states, sorry, the LDS Church at 34% is around the average of all Americans. So all Americans are 35% concerned about the dilution of the white race. And Mormons are right there. Oh, sorry, 39. Sorry. So. So Mormons are 3 or 4 percentage points more concerned about the dilution of the white race as Americans are overall less concerned than evangelical Christians, white Catholics and mainline Protestants.

John Dehlin [02:20:46] Huh, that's interesting. But more concerned than Jews, Hispanics, black black Protestants and other non Christian religions. That's interesting. So Catholics, white Catholics in the United States are more, you could say white supremacist or in favor of concerns around great replacement theory. I mean, that makes sense that white people are going to be more concerned about white culture and the white race than people of color. I didn't think that white Catholics would be more in favor of the Great replacement theory than, than Mormons.

Meggan Hayes [02:21:29] Right. That is interesting that that one's up there. I hadn't even, I hadn't thought about it until I saw it on there. And then I was like, yeah, you're right. That is one that kind of surprised me.

John Dehlin [02:21:40] And also that white mainline and non evangelical Protestants are more concerned about the white race than Latter Day Saints because I tend to think of mainline Protestants and non evangelical Christians as being less white supremacist than Mormons.

Meggan Hayes [02:22:03] Yeah, same. I don't know. I, I live in an interesting area because where I am, white people are the minority. So I get kind of a different view. There's still a lot of Christian folks obviously in Texas, but in the Houston area, I think we're like between 20 and 30% of the population as a white person. So I get to see like non evangelical Protestants are mostly people of color. So it might not be the ones that are my neighbors.

John Dehlin [02:22:36] Do you think it's fair to associate people who. Who adopt the Great Replacement Theory as white supremacist? I guess you could. You could want to preserve white culture, but not think white culture is better, just that it belong just like a carrot or a potato belongs in the stew. That doesn't mean you think that the potato is better than the carrot. It just means you think stews better with carrots and potatoes. Can you be in favor of being of the Great Replacement Theory and not be a white supremacist? Or in your view, making. Does having. Being a supporter of the Great Replacement Theory also mean you are a white supremacist?

Meggan Hayes [02:23:25] I don't think it automatically makes you a white supremacist. But I just. The thought that immigrants are invading our country and replacing our cultural and ethnic background. To me that's so strange because if we go back far enough, we're all of the white folks in America are immigrants to America. I mean, my. My family line is a lot of Irish, and when the Irish first came over, there was a lot of animosity towards Irish folks.

John Dehlin [02:23:53] Ton of racism against Irish, against Italians, Jews. Like, yeah, before we were racist against black and Hispanic and Native Americans like we are today. We were definitely super racist against Italians and. And Irish and Jews.

Meggan Hayes [02:24:15] Yeah, right. So it's like I was once an immigrant, but now I think immigrants are trying to take away my culture, which I don't. I mean, my culture is Mormonism because that's what I was raised in. So I actually. So today my youngest son is doing a field experience. They don't call them field trips anymore, I guess. And they're learning about Hispanic culture and they're doing. What do they call them? It started with an F. Anyway, the. The shrine type things that they make to honor people who are departed in that culture. And when he was talking to me about it this morning, he was supposed to bring things so he could make his own little shrine.

Meggan Hayes [02:24:53] And I just thought it was amazing. And I actually get kind of jealous sometimes with these cultures that have these rich traditions that I don't feel like I got because I just a white gal who grew up in Mormonism and then left Mormonism. So it's like trying to make those traditions for myself. I sometimes get jealous of these really bonding, connecting rituals that other cultures have. A frienda. Somebody said it in the chat, that's what it's called, an ofrenda.

John Dehlin [02:25:23] I've never heard of that word.

Meggan Hayes [02:25:26] I only heard it because my son. I knew that they existed. I didn't know that's what they were called. But yeah, he said, mom, I have to make an ofrenda.

John Dehlin [02:25:32] An offering.

Meggan Hayes [02:25:34] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:25:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:37] A couple interesting comments. Dan Vogel, who we love and respect and admire, he says the. The replacement theory is a total delusion. Thanks for that, Dan. I. I respect your opinion. JC writes, please re. Please replace us. Black and lat. Latino culture is so much richer. That's an interesting thing to say because I. Before I got my PhD and studied racism and multicultural theory, my view was like, oh, white, whiteness. White people don't have culture. You know what I mean? But, but you know, the people that teach multiculturalism say that that's just dumb. Of course we have food. When you go to a foreign country, you miss your food, you miss your music, you miss all sorts of things around you.

John Dehlin [02:26:30] And if you, if you're white and believe you don't have culture, it's just like a fish that doesn't know he's swimming in water. It's all around you, but you're just in it so much, you don't even recognize it. So I don't think it's probably an informed thing to say either that you don't have culture as a white person or that you don't. That you think it should just go away. Like, I don't think.

John Dehlin [02:26:55] I don't feel like white culture should disappear. I do like this melting pot idea of lots of cultures make the stew tastier, right? So I don't want white culture to disappear, but I do not think white culture is superior.

John Dehlin [02:27:14] And I don't think that by having immigrants we're ruining white culture. I think white culture is gonna look after itself like all cultures do, and it's gonna only be enriched. And it has been enriched by black culture and Hispanic culture and other culture, Asian culture, etc, so I'm not afraid of immigrants. I think we should have healthy, consistent, well enforced immigration policies.

John Dehlin [02:27:47] I think we should treat immigrants well. I think we should have immigrants, but we should have laws around immigration and enforce the laws legally and consistently. But I'm not afraid of white culture being diluted by there being people of color and people from foreign countries coming into America. That's where I stand. Where do you stand?

Meggan Hayes [02:28:07] Yeah, I'm very similar. To me, it's hard because kind of pushes up against those, like the political divide, where it's like if there is something that someone claims originally came from a certain culture and then I think it's beautiful and I want, I want to adopt it into the culture that I'm building in my family, then sometimes people get offended. So it can get really difficult. I mean, I don't ever bring this up, but people say that about my hair. Right.

Meggan Hayes [02:28:39] And so I think in the United States, we need to be able to appreciate and learn from and enjoy the best parts of everyone's culture. Not in a mocking way, not in a we're stealing your culture way, but really research and learn about and appreciate the other cultures.

Meggan Hayes [02:29:07] Because eventually with all of the transportation that we have nowadays and how much people can move and live in different parts of the world, like our cultures are going to blend. They used to be more siloed because it was harder to travel from one place to the other. But that's not the case anymore. So preserving culture and sharing culture, I think can coexist. And I think that's again, like what makes life so rich.

John Dehlin [02:29:39] Well said. Alan Zabriskie writes, john, your liberal bias is causing you to have cognitive dissonance. I'm not sure what he means by that. I consider myself a moderate. I see problems with both parties. I see good things about both parties. And I'm not partisan, I don't think. And I just try and find a middle ground position. So people, sometimes people like to call me woke or liberal. I mean, I'm pro lgbt. I think we should treat immigrants respectfully, but I'm, I think we should have less taxes and I don't think we should be in debt as a country. I'm for self defense as a country, but I'm against unnecessary foreign wars and excessive foreign wars. I don't know, does that, what does that make me? Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:30:33] Right? There's like no party for those of us who want to take each issue one at a time. It's like you have to put yourself in a camp. And yeah, I don't like being put into a camp because I want to be able to evaluate everything one at a time.

John Dehlin [02:30:50] Yeah, yeah. Somebody else says new. Richard Jones says, see now, Alan, I think John can be too conservative. So I, I, I do, I do want to be in the middle really quickly. This next slide is interesting. It's asking about immigration and enforcement, and I'll just read it because I Can, I think I can read it a little bit clearer than you.

Mormon Views on Immigration and Empathy

John Dehlin [02:31:12] As far as the idea that we should have internment camps for undocumented immigrants, the United states is at 33% of support for that, and Latter Day Saints are 39%. So Latter Day Saints are pro internment camps for undocumented immigrants, more so than the average person in the United States, which doesn't surprise me because of the general MAGA support that we know is associated with Utah, Idaho and Arizona.

John Dehlin [02:31:51] And again, white evangelical Protestants are at 53%, which doesn't surprise me, but white Catholics are at 45%. White Catholics are way more MAGA than I understood. Right. I, I, I, I would have thought white Catholics would be more liberal, politically liberal than Latter Day Saints, but they're not. Now, they're not segmenting out white Latter Day Saints from Latter Day Saints of color, and that's a problem with the segmentation.

John Dehlin [02:32:25] But so Latter Day Saints are more internment camp supporting than the average American, but less internment support for immigrants supporting than evangelical white evangelical Protestants, white Catholics. And again, we white mainline, non evangelical Protestants are more in favor of internment camp for immigrants than Mormons, which again, maybe it's just because we're not segmenting out white Mormons from, from Mormons of color. That's how I'm going to explain that discrepancy. And then, then we have stripping citizenship and deporting those deemed a threat to the country.

John Dehlin [02:33:06] The United states is at 41%. Latter Day Saints are at 46%. It's a similar difference. Anything you want to highlight about those differences, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:33:16] It wasn't terribly surprising to me. So, I mean, it's shocking that there's anyone who thinks that internment camps are a good idea. I just don't. I think they dehumanize people when you put them in a situation like that. And so I, I don't think that's a good idea. I think it allows us to look at people as lesser than. But I wasn't shocked by the 39. I just don't agree with the people who, who answered the survey that way.

John Dehlin [02:33:49] Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, let's, this is the slide that I sent you that struck me the hardest. It's around religion and empathy. Do you want to describe your reactions to this slide, Meggan? Do you want me to. The numbers?

Meggan Hayes [02:34:03] Yeah, read the numbers first.

John Dehlin [02:34:04] Okay. So the question is, you know, to what, to what extent do people in the United States agree with the statement empathy is a foundational moral value that helps build a healthy society? In other words, to what extent are Americans and Mormons and other people thinking empathy as a good thing, generally speaking, versus the opposite, which is are concerned about or fearful of or skeptical of empathy. Endorsing the second statement, which is empathy can become dangerous when it leads people away from building a society guided by God's truth.

John Dehlin [02:34:53] So I mean, it's the way the questions are framed is going to heavily influence people's answer. But generally what we're asking is to what extent are Latter Day Saints generally pro empathy versus anti empathy? And you know, and then how do they compare to people throughout the rest of the United States? And the answer is, is that generally speaking, Americans are overwhelmingly insubordinate support of empathy.

John Dehlin [02:35:20] You know, let's just say 68% of Americans either strongly agree or, you know, agree with the idea that empathy is a good thing. And 27% of Americans are skeptical or, you know, sort of anti empathy. That's generally Americans overall and you know, Jews are even more in favor of empathy.

John Dehlin [02:35:47] Other non Christian religions are, you know, like atheists and agnostics and I don't know, Universalist Unitarians and Buddhists, they're more pro empathy than that. And then interestingly, Protestants here, white Protestants are right at the national average in favor of empathy. And again we have Hispanic Catholics, Hispanic Protestants, black Protestants exceeding the national average for being pro empathy. And then white Catholics are slightly under the national average for being pro empathy.

John Dehlin [02:36:25] And then we have a pretty significant drop off in terms of people being anti empathy. Mormons, active Mormons and Latter Day Saints are significantly more anti empathy than Americans. And, and then of course white evangelical Protestants are even less pro empathy than Latter Day Saints. And I guess surprise, not surprise for me, Meggan, but what's your take on that?

Meggan Hayes [02:36:55] I'm definitely not surprised. When I listen now to pro LDS commentators, a lot of times they're bad mouthing therapy because then people learn to be empathetic towards marginalized communities, especially ones that the church has pushed against people of color, LGBTQ folks and women. And that empathy leads people out of the church. So for them to be afraid of empathy makes perfect sense. If I got down to the root of why I stopped going to church, it would probably be empathy. Like a lot of times I'll say it's because I, I realized that God, the Mormon God, the God that I was taught was not a good parent.

Meggan Hayes [02:37:33] And when it came down to is that I wanted to have more empathy for myself and for my kids. So Latter Day Saints being afraid of empathy makes sense to me. It's Sad, because I think that if we want to emulate Jesus in the most basic of ways, empathy, that would be. Empathy.

Guest [02:37:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:55] Love it. My take is that this makes all the sense in the world to me. Like, who has the Church been hemorrhaging over the past 25 years in the United States? I would argue it's the most empathetic. It's the people that are sympathetic to discrimination against women, people who are sympathetic, Mormons who are sympathetic against the church's racism, Mormons who are sympathetic against the church's homophobia, Mormons who are sympathetic against intellectuals being excommunicated or critics being excommunicated. The church is hemorrhaging its empathetic, most empathetic members and in my view, orthodox fundamentalist Mormons just. And I'm going to say that this is a brain trait. Meggan, I don't know if you've read the Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt or how much you've looked into that.

John Dehlin [02:38:53] It's a great classic book that, that people questioning their faith should read. Jonathan Height, the Righteous Mind. He's a social psychologist who explains why people are religious versus not and why people are Republican versus Democrat. And it's not whether they're smart or not. It's not whether they're courageous or not. It's not whether they are educated or not. It's how much they value certain things over other things. And it's simply that people who remain religious and people who tend to be politically conservative tend to value authority and order and purity over things like diversity and empathy and individual freedom.

John Dehlin [02:39:51] And if it's. It's not that religious people, faithful Mormons and Republicans don't value freedom or autonomy or social justice, they do. If you ask, if you ask your average, active, faithful Mormon, are you homophobic? They're going to say no. Are you going to say, do you love gay people? Yes. Do you love black people? Yes. Do you love freedom of speech? Yes. Do you think that you should be able to criticize the church? Yes.

John Dehlin [02:40:24] They'll say all the right things that a liberal or progressive or an ex Mormon would say. But then if you would, if you would say, what do you value more? Authority and order or marginalized, you know, advocating for marginalized groups or, you know, individual criticism, they're going to go with the, the values that the Church values. And that's why, you know, we have the split that we have today. The church is becoming more conservative, less tolerant, less empathetic, and all the empathetic people are draining. Now, that's My view. What's, what's your take on that, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:41:05] No, I, I agree because for a lot of people it comes to a point when those things flip flop like they're in the church and they value the authority and the structure. And I think for a lot of folks it feels very safe to have that level of structure. It's like, you know, I saw this commercial once when I was, I don't know, I was probably in my 20s or something and it was geared towards older folks and it was like, don't know what to do with your retirement. And then it was trying to push them a certain way. I can't remember it was, but I remember thinking as an active, believing member, well, I'm so glad I'm part of the church because I don't have to think about what I'm going to do in retirement because it's all laid out for me.

Meggan Hayes [02:41:44] I'll, you know, my kids will grow up, they'll all get married in the temple. Then my husband and I will serve missions for the church. Like the thinking has been done for me so I don't have to worry about it. That level of structure can feel very safe.

Meggan Hayes [02:41:57] So when people get to a point where that safety gets overridden by the harm that they see and their integrity and empathy overrides that and, and makes them question whether that safety is worth the harm, then they, you have to push so hard to give up that level of safety that that's how people get out of the church. Because someone's not just going to give that up because, you know, they want to drink a cup of coffee or they want to sin. No, it's because of the harm that they see. I'm not giving up all that structure that the church has given me over something trivial.

Meggan Hayes [02:42:41] It's because I, I don't want my children to die by suicide because they're gay. So that's why people are leaving and that's why empathy becomes so dangerous. Because empathy is strong enough that it can override that intrinsic need we have to keep ourselves safe and it allows us to want to be safe while also keeping other people safe. It helps us come outside of ourselves in that way.

John Dehlin [02:43:14] Yeah, well said, well said. If I, you know, I, again, I like systems over people, but I, I was a little harsh on Mattie Packer last week, some would say. And you know, we've all had criticisms of like the Jacob Hansens, the Cardinal Ellis is the Jasmine Rapalis, and in the past and Daniel Peterson and Lewis Midgley and And Hugh Nibley, if I had to be, give my most charitable critique of these people. And I'll use Maddy Packer as an example. Julie de Azevedo goes on soft white underbelly and gives this heartfelt, authentic sharing of her story where she cries multiple times or at least starts to tear up and her voice starts trembling.

John Dehlin [02:44:04] She's laying her heart on her sleeve and she's telling her story for everyone publicly, for everyone to hear in its most vulnerable state, Right? And then Maddie's like, well, she just is trying to speak for the rest of us. And she mischaracterizes what the Mormon experience is for faithful Mormon women. Like, if you really strip that down, Maddie just does not display a normal capacity for going, oh, my gosh, this is a human being.

John Dehlin [02:44:40] Let's listen to her story and judge what she's actually. Oh, my gosh, she's. Her voice is trembling. She must be sincere. She must be heartfelt. Let me actually listen and hear what she's saying instead of be defensive and try and defend a bunch of people. Julie's not even talking about. Or Julie is admitting she's not representing all Mormon women. She's just representing her experience.

John Dehlin [02:45:06] It's Maddie Packer's just genuine deficit in basic empathy for others. Maybe she has empathy for faithful, orthodox believing Mormons, but she does not have or show empathy for people. Mormon women who have felt mistreated, who have felt judged, who have felt demonized for being working women who have felt demonized for working. Something about Maddie Packer's brain has an empathy deficit for people who leave the church or for Mormon feminist women.

John Dehlin [02:45:44] And it's the same with Jared Hansen and Cardinalis. Like, their brains or even the Paul brothers, like, they come on Mormon stories and they're like, yeah, I never really have listened to Mormon stories before. And they misrepresent critics of Mormonism and Mormon historians and ex Mormons. They misrepresent them so grossly and egregiously that you realize you've never actually listened to any of us. You've never actually listened with an empathetic ear to our stories and to our concerns. Because, yes, Paul Brothers, yes, Cardinalis, yes, Jacob Hansen, yes, Jasmine Rapoli, yes, Maddie Packer. You just continued to grossly misrepresent our concerns and our experiences to the point that just betrays the fact that you just.

John Dehlin [02:46:43] Your brains are broken when it comes to actual empathy, and you're incapable of. Of actually listening with an open mind and an open heart to hearing our experience. And that's to me, that's what it comes down to. Their brains are broken when it comes to having normal levels of basic human empathy.

Meggan Hayes [02:47:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:47:07] They just don't care. Go ahead.

Meggan Hayes [02:47:08] Yeah. Empathy allows for difference. And in Mormonism, the safety comes in homogeny. Everybody, you know, I know they think the same thing as me, and I know we believe the same thing. So we're all safe together. And empathy allows for there to be difference and it allows us to stay very curious about our discomfort. I kind of like the analogy of going to the dentist because I hate going to the dentist. However, when I go to the dentist and I like, I had to get an implant, okay. Because I had a tooth that I didn't take care of when I was five. And so I had to get an implant and the process was horrible.

Meggan Hayes [02:47:46] Like, it hurt. I couldn't eat on that side of my mouth. Nothing even tasted the same because if you only eat on one side, your tongue only senses the flavor. Right. It was terrible. However, that process that hurt me didn't harm me. It actually fixed a problem.

Meggan Hayes [02:48:02] So sometimes like empathy allows us to endure hurt so that we can get better versus where they are, where it's like they, they won't allow for the discomfort. And so then they don't also get the rewards of pushing through, of processing the discomfort.

Meggan Hayes [02:48:25] Cognitive dissonance isn't creating irreparable harm in the way that like if I went to the dentist, he's not going to harm me. He's going to hurt.

Guest 2 [02:48:35] Hurt.

Meggan Hayes [02:48:35] It's going to hurt, but it's not going to harm. It's actually going to make it better. And empathy is such a big part of being in that process and allowing the discomfort and allowing the hurt so that we can process it and learn. So it actually, it does, it stunts them. It, it makes it so that part of their brain isn't, it's not growing.

Guest [02:49:01] Well said.

John Dehlin [02:49:04] If I'm trying to be fair. Let's, let's flip the argument. I'll say I'll put words to what I guess Carden and Jacob and Jasmine and Maddie and others would say flipping the argument. And I want you to respond to it, Meggan. Okay, fine. Maybe we lack some empathy for LGBT people or, or critics of the church, but we as believing faithful Mormons in 2026, we value community. We value spirituality. We value the church, we value the church's morality. We value the traditional family. We value stay at home moms and having lots of kids. We value faith.

John Dehlin [02:49:53] And you ex Mormons are lack empathy for those of us believers who love the church and who care about it. And by tearing the church down by, by speaking about unfavorable history or, or demonizing Joseph Smith or talking about your feminism, you demean traditional moms in Mormonism. And by criticizing the brethren, you undermine the authority that props up the church. And in that way you lack empathy for us believers and for those of us who love the church. What would you say to that, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:50:42] I would say the same thing I just said. I think a system is only as sick as it's secrets. So we are not trying to do irreparable harm to the church. What we are doing is saying the truth and it does hurt the church.

Meggan Hayes [02:51:01] But if that truth, I, I don't even want to say criticism like if that truth is received, then it can be more healthy. So we actually have empathy because we want more for them. We don't want them to have less. We don't want them to have less and less community or less family or less kids or let. We don't want them to have less of any of that. We want them to have more.

Meggan Hayes [02:51:24] And a system that is healthier, that can be more diverse, that can accept. Because the church is putting limits on love. The one of the most, which I think is probably the most basic thing that we have that connects us as people, and they're putting limits on that. We don't want less love, we want more. We want someone who is authentic in their homosexuality, in their gayness and their queerness, to be able to be fully themselves and fully loved in the church. We're not trying to take anything away from this. We're just trying to add more. That's good.

John Dehlin [02:52:03] So, yeah, but I mean, some would argue that ex Mormons want to tear the church down. And weirdly, people don't believe me when I say I'm not trying to do that. Because sometimes, you know, sometimes Mormon stories can be challenging to faith. Right. I just know that in my heart I don't want to tear the church down. I want it to be the healthiest church. But I think that's what the critics would say, Meggan, is that you and I and all the others like us are trying to destroy the church and tear it down. I don't think we're trying to do that. But I do think that empathy, you could argue that empathy is fatal to modern Mormonism.

John Dehlin [02:52:45] You could argue that empathy is fatal to orthodox Mormon belief. Just like Mark Twain argued that travel is fatal to prejudice. Because once you travel the world and see all these beautiful cultures and meet all these brilliant people. It's harder to be racist once you've seen and and think your religion is the best when you've seen really good people everywhere. Or to think your country is the best when you see people that are good everywhere.

John Dehlin [02:53:14] What do you think about the argument that empathy is fatal to orthodox Mormonism? Because if you're sympathetic for gays, feminists and intellectuals, then you're going to think the church has mistreated them and then you're going to want to leave it.

Meggan Hayes [02:53:30] Yeah, empathy is fatal to a system that is harming people and does not want to improve. So they get to decide. And if we bring up something that they've done that was terrible, we didn't tell them to do that. We are not responsible that they did it. They are. So they get upset at us for talking about those things. We didn't do those things. The church did those things. Like, they get mad at us because they don't want to be mad at the church. But overall, a system that is not willing to change for the better will suffer when more people become empathetic.

John Dehlin [02:54:07] Well said. Yeah. And actually, I actually do think it's fatal to the church to breed empathy. And it makes sense that all the empathetic people are draining from the LDS Church in 2026. And so the church is going to become less and less empathetic over.

John Dehlin [02:54:27] But. And that's the rub is that if you. And this is the thing that I've had to face because people say to me, john, I don't believe you don't want to tear the church down because your podcast deteriorates faith and commitment in the church. And I would just say, but that's not my goal. Yes, it's true that talking about church history and LGBT people and the harm the church does can lead to empathy, which then can lead people to want to leave the church. But that's not my fault and it's not my goal. But it's true that that's the outcome. And so I think the church is suing me partly and us and fighting us, because it feels like what we're doing is hurting the church.

John Dehlin [02:55:13] And I think we are, because I do think we're pro empathy. And I think empathy is fatal to orthodox Mormonism. And that's the rub. If you love Mormonism, if you love the modern Mormon church, you are going to be anti empathy, and that's the paradox. And then Christ taught empathy. And so you're going to prioritize the church over Christianity at the end of the day.

Meggan Hayes [02:55:38] Yes. Yes. And the church is the brethren.

John Dehlin [02:55:43] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:55:44] Ultimately, that's who that is. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:55:46] Wow, what a fun. Meggan, I love these talks with you. Thank you for doing this.

Meggan Hayes [02:55:51] You're welcome. It's good. It helps me to stay more nuanced and think about things that I wouldn't have otherwise thought about. I love it.

John Dehlin [02:55:59] Well, I hope you do, because we want. I hope you'll keep doing this with us every week. I'm like, I hope we don't. I hope Meggan still wants to do this next week. In the week after collab, Choir cream writes, I'm 10 minutes behind.

John Dehlin [02:56:12] But for the chat record, I love the book the Righteous Mind. It is definitely a classic. Check it out, Meggan. You'll love it. We love the bishop Bo is in the chat. We love you, Beau. Bo writes, they are the future of the church membership, the chosen generation. He's talking about the unempathetic there.

John Dehlin [02:56:32] Ryan Scott, pnw, writes, I think people like Mattie Packer have parts of themselves that show up very strongly when anything threatens the carefully constructed scaffolding they put around their beliefs to make it all work. And that's an interesting thing. I get. I get this comment all the time. Meggan, it's John. I used to hate you. I used to think you were the devil. When I found out my spouse or my sibling or my whoever neighbor was listening to you, I just cursed your name.

John Dehlin [02:57:04] And then it wasn't until something happened to me that things changed. And then I. I started to have empathy for LGBT people or women or church history or people who leave the church, that I was willing to listen to your podcast. And I guess that adds the question, what. What can cause a big shift in empathy, Meggan? What can cause a Maddie Packer or a Jacob Hansner or a Cardinalis or a.

John Dehlin [02:57:31] Because we know that sometimes yesterday's apologists, like Radio Free Mormon, like Bill Real, like me, like Julie de Zevedo, yesterday's apologists are tomorrow's ex Mormon apostates. Is it empathy that turns orthodox Mormons into apostates and. And even critics, is. Is that. I mean, I think we've already answered that question, haven't we?

Meggan Hayes [02:58:01] Yeah, but I. No, I think it is. I think it is because empathy, which is love at its most basic and pure form, right. That is the one thing that can get us to abandon our safety so that we can take care of the people around us. Because we don't abandon our safety just for anything. Because it's scary. It's so scary. To abandoned like that. And, and by safety, I think I mean comfort. Right? The safety that we get from the rigidity of whatever system we're in, we won't just throw that out because as human beings, we are self preservationists by economic design. We want to stay alive. And to do that, we need to feel a certain level of safety or comfort. And for us to abandoned that and step outside of takes a whole lot of love to combat the fear that would keep us inside of it.

John Dehlin [02:59:10] Well said. And I'll just say at the end that, that for people who think I'm trying to destroy the church or we're trying to destroy the church, the only thing I'll say is Christ was pro empathy. And unless you can, yes, you can quote that Christ flipped the temple, the tables in the temple, but I think he was doing that because the leaders of the church were neglecting the poor. So he was doing that on behalf of empathy and marginalized people. And even if Christ said, I came to divide husband from wife, mother from daughter, son, I don't think you can just take a scripture out of context and say Christ was anti empathy.

John Dehlin [02:59:50] This whole teddy bear Jesus argument that Greg Mattson and others make that Jesus was anti empathy because of a quote here and there. I just don't think you can read Christ's overall messaging and argue that he was anti empathy and pro bigotry and pro insensitivity to the marginalized. And so at the end of the day, even if what we're doing right now is harming the church, I think what we're doing collectively in the critical ex Mormon or Mormon space is pro empathy at the end of the day, which I think is Christianity at its core. So I think we're, I think ex Mormon content on the Internet at its best is Christian at its core.

John Dehlin [03:00:40] And that's why I don't feel like it's anti Mormon. Unless you're saying you're anti Christ. I think being pro Christ, pro empathy at your core means being pro Mormon.

Meggan Hayes [03:00:56] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:00:56] Is that twisted?

Meggan Hayes [03:00:57] No, no, I agree. I have, I feel a much larger capacity to love and care for people now that I don't feel like there are men in Salt Lake City who are putting limits on how I can show that love and compassion to other people.

John Dehlin [03:01:18] Yeah. All right, well, really quickly, I, I actually, I threw up a survey that I received. They're basically surveying young adults and I don't want to take the time to really go through it. Maybe we should cover it later. I'll just say that they're basically asking people, young adults, why are you leaving the Church?

Church Survey on Why Members Are Leaving

John Dehlin [03:01:44] What are your biggest concerns? And I just thought it's interesting to see the types of things that they realize are a problem because this is the Church admitting why people are leaving. And I'll just list them. It's Book of Mormon. It's church culture, it's church doctrine, it's church history.

John Dehlin [03:02:05] You know, th, those are, it's the church's involvement in social political issues. It's temple worship. It's, it's, you know, God not answering prayers. It's prophets and apostles, it's women in the priesthood. It's fear of being judged. It's fear of being misunderstood.

John Dehlin [03:02:25] It's fear of being dismissed or invalidated. It's concerns that the church, you know, doesn't allow dissent, you know, those sorts of things. And without taking the time to really get into it, you know, they're basically asking, is the Church too insensitive to the needs of marginalized groups? Is the Church too dishonest in its history? Is the Church too polarizing in its rhetoric? Is the Church too one sided in how it talks about history or marginalized groups? Is the Church too controlling in how it allows its leaders or members to tolerate dissent? And I think the Church knows why it's got a problem. And I think it's, in my view, it's just assessing its young adults to figure out how much of a problem it has in each of these areas to decide when the, like you said earlier, Meggan, when the revelation should come on women in the priesthood or apologizing for its racism or on a historical Book of Mormon or being more, you know, honest and open with its history.

John Dehlin [03:03:44] Clearly, when the Church does these surveys, it's trying to decide when it's time for another revelation, for a policy change. Do you want to add any, anything to that?

Meggan Hayes [03:03:55] Well, maybe there was a survey about how people feel about tithing and then they're doing this inoculation campaign to bolster the young folks, you know, belief that tithing is necessary, it's from God, and it's not about money. So it'll be interesting to see what assignments they get six months from now when this survey has come through and they've seen the results and processed all of that. So, yeah, maybe the next inoculation campaign will be about whatever this survey, this survey tells them, but it makes it obvious that they know what's going on.

John Dehlin [03:04:33] Yeah, yeah, they do know and they've always known. Like the Church endlessly measures and polls its membership and it always has. And so the church has known forever that these problems were problems just like with the priesthood and temple ban for black people. It just waited till there was enough of a critical mass of concerned members to where it had knew it had to make the change or it was going to lose more than it kept or gained by holding out. And you know what? That's a rational thing for a corporation to do. Right?

Meggan Hayes [03:05:16] Do you think they'll ever make it so tithing is optional?

John Dehlin [03:05:20] I mean, I think they are. I think they'll make it so less and less will people be kept from temple service if they're not paying a full tithe. Will they ever come out and say you don't need to pay tithing? No. Will they ever come out and say tithing is an important. No. But what they do is they, they behind closed doors tell bishops and stake presidents just like they're not excommunicating same sex married Mormons as much as they used to by design. That's because they tell bishops and stake presidents to kind of sh. Let's maybe, let's maybe let's just not excommunicate people as much. I think they're going to slowly like not keep people out of temples as much once they realize it's. It's going to harm them to do so.

Meggan Hayes [03:06:13] Yeah. Interesting.

Child Protection Policies and the Abuse Helpline

John Dehlin [03:06:17] All right, what's the next story, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [03:06:21] So this is another thing that I've seen being talked about a lot. It's another one of those, like this is a hot button issue and the church is trying to talk about it without talking about it. You know, we all kind of hoped the Todd Christofferson would get up in general conference and talk about child protection policies and their failures in the church. And then he didn't. He talked about gambling. So now an unofficial person is talking about it. In the Deseret News, this is Jennifer Roach Lees. She published an opinion piece titled How Latter Day Saint Child Protection Policies actually Work. Jennifer Roach Lees holds a Master in Divinity as well as a Master's in Counseling psychology.

Meggan Hayes [03:07:02] She. She is a licensed mental health therapist and lives in Utah. She was the 2023 recipient of the John Taylor Defender of the Faith award. Lees argues that recent reporting has created misconceptions about the Church's child protection policies. She addresses four areas. Zero tolerance for abuse, the abuse helpline, background checks and screening and interviews with children.

John Dehlin [03:07:24] Okay, so she's basically the church's answer to Natasha Helfer and Julie Hanks and myself and other mental health professionals. That have been criticizing the church for a long time on how it deals with things like child abuse. This is the church's answer to that. The faithful, apologetic mental health person. Right.

Meggan Hayes [03:07:47] Yes. And there was another. I actually the link is probably going to be in the show notes, but I didn't get around to putting it in here because it's seemed like it was too much information to cover. But a video came out on that channel, Mormonism Explained, which is kind of a newer channel. I think you maybe wrote up something about it because it's. They got the go ahead to use the word Mormon from the church. Yeah, the guy. Yeah. And it. But it's all AI. It's such a strange channel anyway, so I think this is another, like, concerted effort that they're putting forth. But they're not personally going to talk about it.

Meggan Hayes [03:08:19] The brethren obviously aren't going to get up in General Conference to talk about it. So they have all of these, you know, this therapist and these influencers doing their work for them. But actually, if you go to the next slide, she references her reasoning that she says why she did this. And you'll see it is. It's you and it's Natasha and it's Julie, but it's also Nemo. Yep.

John Dehlin [03:08:45] All right.

Meggan Hayes [03:08:45] So she. Yeah. She says recent media coverage, including a widely stated circulated video from Ladbible, has highlighted several common misconceptions regarding church guidelines. Stories like this often flatten complex church guidelines into alarming headlines, creating unnecessary fear and confusion among members and the general public.

John Dehlin [03:09:05] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [03:09:06] Which I don't know if you know Nemo very well, John, but does that describe him? I mean, when Nemo talks, is he just creating misconceptions?

John Dehlin [03:09:17] No. Nemo is very thoughtful, very smart, very intellectual. I mean, I do think ex Mormon critics tend to want to focus on the problems of the church and drum up headlines and, you know, get. Get views. But I think Nemo's heart is in the right place and he does it credibly and responsibly, in my opinion.

Meggan Hayes [03:09:43] Well, and I watched his documentary and I felt similarly about how he talked about Julie de Azevedo's soft white underbelly. It was just Nemo speaking to his experience in a very sensitive, a very vulnerable way. And I actually really appreciated it. So to see someone have such a different view of that and to bring it out in this way was kind of interesting to me.

John Dehlin [03:10:09] Yeah, yeah. It's unfortunate because just like Maddie just showed zero empathy with Julie do that's a really insensitive Read of Nemo's authentic, heartfelt Mormon story.

Meggan Hayes [03:10:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:10:25] Yeah, I agree. Okay, next slide.

Meggan Hayes [03:10:28] So she brings up four points. Number one, legal compliance and zero tolerance. Some suggest the church only follows the bare minimum legal requirements to protect children. However, official church handbooks are unquestionably clear about a strict zero tolerance policy on abuse. Any form of physical or sexual abuse is treated as both a grave sin and a crime. In a first presidency letter dated March 26, 2018, priesthood leaders are instructed that they should fulfill all legal obligations to report abuse to civil authorities. In addition, there are extensive instructions in the general handbook about following all legal requirements when abuse is discovered. So did she answer the concern,

Guest [03:11:09] John?

John Dehlin [03:11:11] No, not really. No, she did not.

Meggan Hayes [03:11:17] Because the, the criticism is exactly that the church only does what they're required to do by law. Right. And they lobby to make sure the laws stay where they want them to stay. She responds by citing its zero tolerance policy and instructions to follow legal requirements. She does not establish what happens when reporting is legally optional. So zero tolerance is just a stance. It's not reality. It's not what's actually happening.

John Dehlin [03:11:48] It's worse than that. It's a lie. It's outright deception. When the church calls itself the gold standard for dealing with child abuse, those are just empty words that are blatantly false. Like it's. That's propaganda at its worst. Because the Church is so far from the industry best standard for handling predators and child abuse. They have a machine with Kurt McConkey. It's an abuse mill. They, they literally choose leaders that have histories of child abuse or are most likely to abuse. And when abuse happens, they've got an entire legal process to help maximize the chance that the abuse will never be reported to police and that, and the perpetrators will be protected and that and the.

John Dehlin [03:12:39] And the victims will be silenced and marginalized. So it's ridiculous, it's outrageous, and of course they're not going to admit it. So this is just propaganda. This is like. This is like the, the sky is pink or the sky is, you know, brown. Stupid, deceitful, false rhetoric that's harmful.

Meggan Hayes [03:13:02] Yes, yes. And they, they chose a therapist to try and maybe lend some credibility. But I agree, like, they're just saying things that they like the sound of, and there's not truth behind it.

John Dehlin [03:13:15] That's lies, and it's harmful lies because children are being sacrificed, you know? Yeah. All right, what else?

Meggan Hayes [03:13:25] So the second thing that she highlights is the abuse helpline. She says it's critical to respond to the especially false notion that the Church of Jesus Christ's Internal reporting Helpline was created to protect the institution's reputation rather than help victims. Of course the Church wants to protect its reputation. What is the most effective way to do that? To follow the law. The helpline is there to help local bishops fulfill their legal obligations in reporting a crime of child abuse. I almost laughed at this because it's so absurd.

John Dehlin [03:13:57] Why?

Meggan Hayes [03:13:58] Well, because, number one, we know that they haven't followed the law to protect their reputation because of the SEC scandal. And we know that they haven't in these cases because they've covered up so much abuse over the years with NDAs. And removing annotations from people's records like this is. It's so blatantly false that it's absurd. Like, I don't want to laugh because we're talking about child abuse, but, like, this is wild that she can claim this.

John Dehlin [03:14:27] Yeah. But it. It's totally fitting for the time. Like, we live in an era where. Especially in the political realm, and I'm not targeting any specific party, where people just say blatantly false things that are the opposite of true and nobody cares about what's true, or. Very few people seem to care about holding people accountable for the lies they tell publicly. And I just. I want to live in a world where, when you say something, the truth matters and you're judged by the truthfulness of what you say. And here she's just. She's just echoing what I think is one of the worst things about modern society, which is we've stopped caring about truth, and we allow people to say the opposite of truth in public, and somehow we're okay with outrageously false, lying, defamatory things.

Meggan Hayes [03:15:28] Yes. Yeah. I don't like it. So the other part of that slide I put. Does this address the concern? No, because that's not the central question.

Guest 2 [03:15:35] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:15:35] Listing other. Oh, it was the previous one.

John Dehlin [03:15:38] Sorry. Yeah, I'll switch. Go ahead.

Meggan Hayes [03:15:41] Following the law does not establish that protecting victims is the Helpline's primary purpose, nor does it answer what happens when reporting is legally optional, when the law allows a bishop not to report abuse. Whose interests come first? You know, the other thing that. When I was researching the Helpline, that really stood out to me is that the Helpline was created in the Church's Risk Management Division, and risk management is to protect their liability. It's part of pr, and it was not put.

John Dehlin [03:16:10] Their. Their legal office.

Meggan Hayes [03:16:12] Yes. Yes. But like the umbrella. When the. When it. Yeah. Is. Is risk management.

John Dehlin [03:16:18] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:16:19] And it was not created the helpline was not put under pastoral care.

John Dehlin [03:16:26] No, the, the helpline protocol did not have a single question about the health and safety of the victim. It was like, you know, did the abuse happen on Church property? Did the abuse happen by an actual. Someone called. Who has a calling in the church? Who knows? Was the bishop involved? You know what I mean? It was just all about assessing liability to protect the Church's interests.

Meggan Hayes [03:16:53] Yeah, it was just one of those things that I hadn't thought about it before. And then having worked in, like a corporate type setting where there's an HR department, there's risk management, when I heard that, I was like, oh, my God, that makes so much sense. Like, it just made it so obvious to me when it was something I hadn't thought about before.

John Dehlin [03:17:11] Yeah, Yep. It's. It's ridiculous. The op. This, this is just blatant lying and deception. Let's keep going. In my opinion.

Meggan Hayes [03:17:20] Yeah. Number three, global screening and prevention. She says another misconception is that the Church refuses to conduct background checks on volunteers who work with children or youth. To protect youth globally, the Church relies on a multi layered screening process, including training, public disclosure, disclosure of youth workers, tracking known abusers between wards and local background checks where applicable. Does this answer the concern? Again, no, not really. Listing other safeguards does not explain why background checks are not universal. Nobody's saying the Church doesn't require them. They're saying they don't require them universally. Nemo actually praised the introduction in his video of UK background checks. He was advocating for more protection, not denying that safeguards exist. The unanswered question remains, why not require background checks wherever legally possible.

John Dehlin [03:18:09] Possible. Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah. When the Church is forced to do background checks or shame. Publicly shamed or legally required to do background checks, then it will. Then it will reluctantly begin background checks. This is so deceptive and false because the Church could do background checks everywhere and it doesn't. It only does it where it's forced to. And so it's just, it's gross. Like, Jennifer Roach Lee's like, shame on you. You are. This is a disgusting, deceptive PR campaign that is on the backs of generations of abused boys and girls. Shame on you.

Meggan Hayes [03:18:58] Yeah, it just made it even worse to me because of her profession. Like, I thought everyone should know better, but she should know better.

John Dehlin [03:19:09] You're a traitor to your profession and to your profession's values and ethics, in my opinion, along with being a traitor to children. And it's not, you know, what Systems, not people like, yes, you are. You are a tool. Jennifer Roach Lee's. You are being used and abused by your church. But let's not forget, it's the church that's doing it. It is the church who's paying her, it's the church who's hiring her, and it's the church and its law firm that's telling her what to say. So ultimately, it's the church, not her, but she's allowing it.

Meggan Hayes [03:19:50] Yeah. Yeah. That's what Bishop Bo said in the comments. Part of me questions whether or not she even wrote that article. It sounds like the church wrote that article. And she signed it.

John Dehlin [03:19:59] For sure.

Guest 2 [03:20:00] For sure.

John Dehlin [03:20:03] Next slide.

Meggan Hayes [03:20:04] Okay, and her fourth one. Youth interviews and parental involvement guidelines specifically encourage parents and guardians to attend the interview with their child or to wait right outside the room with the door left open. The claim that leaders ask kids sexually explicit or graphic question runs directly against official church policy. Sorry, official church policy. Does this answer the concern? Not fully. Encouraging parental attendance is not requiring another adult to be present. A prohibition on graphic questions does not establish that they are never asked. She does not address firsthand accounts of harmful interviews. The unanswered question, what safeguards prevent violations and what happens when they occur? It just. Overall, the article was terrible.

John Dehlin [03:20:46] I want to flip tables again. Like, who? Meggan, I. I never want to be condescending in my questions to you, like, I'm pop quizzing you, but I think you'll know the answer to this. Why? Who introduced the possibility of parents attending bishop's interviews with their children? Where did that come from? Who introduced it?

Meggan Hayes [03:21:11] From Sam Young. I was literally. Yes, Bishop Sam Young. I was literally just listening to him after he was, like, out of the public eye for two years, and then he went on Mormonism live. And, like, I heard parts of his story that I didn't remember or hadn't heard before, and it just made it so much worse what the church did to him simply because he wanted to protect children. Yeah, she's not acknowledging that the church

John Dehlin [03:21:36] effing excommunicated the guy that literally was responsible for that policy being added in the first place. So to now act like the church gets credit for it is just. It's disgusting. I seriously want to swear and flip tables and scream, but it's worse than that because this is carefully worded legalese.

John Dehlin [03:22:01] She's basically saying that, you know, she's trying to give the impression that the church is all for parents attending those interviews with their children, but it's carefully worded because she's saying that parents are encouraged to attend, but they're not. But she adds, encouraged to attend or wait outside the room with the, with the door left open. But we all know that bishops still in 2026 meet with children without parents, with the door closed, without parents even in the hallway. And so it's like she's not giving Sam Young credit. She's, she's making it look like the church is for parents attending these one on one interviews just because the policy allows for it, when in reality it's probably almost never happening.

John Dehlin [03:23:00] And it's just incredibly deceptive and harmful to children and insulting to Sam Young and to all the other activists that have been screaming at the church to stop this abuse for, for years and decades. It's just right. Blood boiling.

Meggan Hayes [03:23:18] Didn't. Didn't Sam have like a 1500 page document of first hand accounts that he stood on the sidewalk across from the church office building offering he had one for each member of the Quorum of the twelve in the first presidency. And he said, just come over here and let's read through some of these texts together. And it was total silence from the church.

John Dehlin [03:23:36] Yep, I was there. Yeah, the, the, this, this is the great sin of Mormonism. Racism, misogyny, homophobia, financial lack of transparency, historical deception. All of that pales in comparison to the child abuse epidemic the church has supported and continue to support. And this just makes me want to flip tables.

Meggan Hayes [03:24:00] So anyway, there's someone in the comments saying that they didn't know about Sam Young, which I think it's good that we always bring these things up because there's always new people who are coming out of the church and learning these things for the first time.

John Dehlin [03:24:12] Just go to MormonStories.org, type in SAM Young, pull up some of my past interviews with him. You can hear the full story. I probably did eight or ten interviews with Sam Young or just freaking go to Claude or Chad GBT and ask it to summarize what Sam did and what price he paid for it.

Meggan Hayes [03:24:31] Yeah, the ultimate price. Mormonism.

John Dehlin [03:24:35] Yep. And the church is still bad on this issue. All right, enough said. Let's move on. Meggan, what's next?

Handbook Changes, AI Morality, and Closing News

Meggan Hayes [03:24:40] Okay, this is just a really quick one. Yesterday I got a little notification on my Apple watch that the church had changed some things in the handbook. And I read through them. Most of them were just kind of boring, but we'll just look at a couple. That kind of piqued my interest. So young women, it says classes renamed age groups, builders of faith, 12 to 13, messengers of hope, 14 to 15 gatherers of light. 16 plus requirement to recite the young women theme at Sunday meetings was removed. So that was one thing. They're really just hammering down these new names, whether people like them or not. And then.

John Dehlin [03:25:15] So apparently they're not great names. Rebecca was hoping they would get rid of them, even though she's not really attending anymore. Do you have an opinion on those names? Are they dumb?

Meggan Hayes [03:25:26] Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to put my teenage brain on here, and I would be like, I'm not going to call myself a messenger.

John Dehlin [03:25:31] Hope.

Meggan Hayes [03:25:32] I probably would have thought it was.

John Dehlin [03:25:34] Were Beehive, Miami and Laurel any better.

Meggan Hayes [03:25:39] I was just used to those because not. Not if I really think about it. Right. But they've been around so long, Beehive's dumb.

John Dehlin [03:25:45] What's a laurel? No one even knows what a laurel is. And what's a laurel?

Meggan Hayes [03:25:49] Is a laurel a flower?

John Dehlin [03:25:51] I. I mean, who knows? They're just dumb. It's like Google and Amazon. Like, they're names that don't have anything to do with what they actually are or do. But you're saying you. You agree these names make it worse. Is that right?

Meggan Hayes [03:26:07] If I was a teenager, again, I don't think I would think those were great. Let's come up with something better.

John Dehlin [03:26:14] What do you think about jettisoning the recitation of the young women's theme now? I mean, again, I think ex Mormons get credit for this because we've mocked the church mercilessly about how culty it is for women to be standing up and reciting, like, droning on this. This thing. But. But also, I'm sure there's a lot of current and former members that have fond memories of reciting the values. Because the values aren't bad. Right? What are the values, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [03:26:42] Well, they've changed them because I think they added, let's see, faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice and accountability, good works and integrity. But there's. I think they added virtue, maybe.

John Dehlin [03:26:55] Yeah, but, I mean, aren't those good values? Did you like those values growing up and as an adult?

Meggan Hayes [03:27:00] I don't know whether I thought about whether I liked them or not.

John Dehlin [03:27:03] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [03:27:04] I mean, I. I don't remember being upset about. You know what, John? I'm going to tell you a little something. So when I was in. I was probably in the first five years of my marriage, and I thought that I had this, like, little revelation.

Meggan Hayes [03:27:19] So embarrassing now that someday I would be saying the young women thing over. Over the pulpit in general conference. Like, I just Thought I was going to be one of those women, you know, so then it felt near and dear to my heart because I thought the Lord really. That's just so embarrassing. The Lord really wanted me to know and to love it. I did like the part at the beginning where it said, we are daughters of our heavenly Father, because I didn't really have much of a relationship with my dad. And I was always trying to picture like some heavenly being full of love for me.

Meggan Hayes [03:27:49] But yeah, I do remember the. Like, we are daughters of our heavenly Father, you know, it did feel very culty and robotic, I think.

John Dehlin [03:28:01] I think it does make the church seem less culty, but I think it harms the church to get rid of that recitation. I think that was something that generally was working. And I think the church made a mistake by removing it because I do think it's good for church culture. So I think the church is making a mistake to get rid of that. But I could see why. I imagine it's too. Could you think of any other reason why they're getting rid of that other than that it's culty? Like, I guess if, if. If young women's is now like 20 minutes, it takes up half the meeting.

Meggan Hayes [03:28:40] Right.

John Dehlin [03:28:41] But. But seriously, can you think of any other reason why they would get rid of it?

Meggan Hayes [03:28:46] No. No. Well, and that's the thing. Like, the church seems to be stripping away all of the. Like you need.

Guest [03:28:53] As.

Meggan Hayes [03:28:53] As human beings, we need. Ritual helps us feel grounded. It helps us feel tied to something. And that's why leaving the church, I think, was partially why it was so hard for me, because I was like, now what are the rituals of our family? Like? We don't pray before a meal. Well, let's find something else to put in that place. Because I, I like ritual. I think we need ritual. So for them to strip all of this down. Yeah, I don't. I don't think they're doing themselves any favors.

John Dehlin [03:29:18] I don't either. I think this is a mistake. Okay, what's going on in primary.

Meggan Hayes [03:29:25] Primary explicit prohibition against hitting, threatening, violence, or using physical force for discipline.

John Dehlin [03:29:30] What the heck is up with that?

Meggan Hayes [03:29:32] I know, I'm like, do they really have to say that? But. And you know, I say that though. But my two youngest kids were actually physically harmed in what's the first nursery by the nursery leader. And she admitted to doing it because she thought she was in the right. She was upset because one of my children had bit the other one. Gosh, she. She bit him all the time. Like she was 14 months older than him. And they just like as soon as he could walk, those two were either best friends or worst enemies, you know. And so I was aware and she, you know, one bit the other in nursery and after church she came to me all incensed and told me that she grabbed their faces and forcefully set them in chairs. And I was just shocked. So I guess it does need to be said because some people need to hear that.

John Dehlin [03:30:20] I'm going to guess that with this kind of pro masculinity, pro men's, even like trad wife kind of cultural impulses that are emerging in the modern era, this whole like spare the rod, spoil the child, discipline the child kind of biblical Christianity. They're called the clobber verses, but actually the Bible is pro beating your children. I think there's like 20 or 30 verses where the Bible is for beating your children. I'm guessing that clobber. Clobber verses and clobber mentalities and basically corporal punishment with parents is on the rise in conservative maga. Mormonism. And that's why the church has to make this explicit.

Meggan Hayes [03:31:17] Yeah, yeah. Because when those of us who study parenting and learn the effects of that start to do something different, then, you know, I get told even by siblings that like my kids are just out of control because I won't do that. So yeah, I can see how it does need to be said for a certain subset of folks.

John Dehlin [03:31:40] Yeah. All right, let's go to the next one.

Meggan Hayes [03:31:45] It's temple ceilings. Members with intellectual disabilities who are not baptized or endowed may receive stake president authorization to attend certain family ceilings. Children observing a sibling's ceiling may wear white but are not required to.

John Dehlin [03:32:01] Okay, what are your thoughts on that?

Meggan Hayes [03:32:03] Well, I just. Some of these, I just was like. Well, it doesn't strike me as like a huge change, but I think it is a good thing that members with intellectual disabilities may receive authorization to go view a ceiling. I don't think people should be excluded for that.

John Dehlin [03:32:23] Yeah, that's kind of nice. And children too, right?

Meggan Hayes [03:32:28] Well, and they.

John Dehlin [03:32:29] Is this mostly adoptions? I guess it's aunt and uncles. Well, it's like, who is this targeting? What's the scenario where it's not helping? Like non member parents of their children who are getting sealed or ex Mormon parents of their children getting sealed. It's not helping that, right?

Meggan Hayes [03:32:47] No, no. It's just people who join the church later in life and already have kids and then they go to a sealing ceremony, I think. Or adoption could be one.

John Dehlin [03:32:57] It's saying children Observing a sibling's ceiling.

Meggan Hayes [03:33:01] Oh. So, yeah, I guess that'd be adoption.

John Dehlin [03:33:04] Yeah. I don't know what else it'd be like. Older children who. The parents are adopting a young child and they're going to seal that child to the family. I don't know. I don't know.

Meggan Hayes [03:33:18] I know. I always just wonder who has, Whose job is it to sit and make these handbook changes, to read through it and be like, oh, this wording is a little off. Let's change three, three sentences here.

John Dehlin [03:33:29] Well, they've been doing it forever. All right, let's do the last one.

Meggan Hayes [03:33:32] Temple workers, children and youth protection training required with renewal every three years.

John Dehlin [03:33:37] Now, is that something we can compliment or not?

Meggan Hayes [03:33:40] Absolutely. Well, I mean, the, the child. Children and youth protection training is. It's just not comprehensive and it, it does something. It doesn't do nothing. But I think it is kind of the bare minimum. However, it's a baby step and we can applaud a baby step because that's what the church does. And there are much. There are a lot more youth who are attending temples now that temples are getting closer to youths and they're really emphasizing youth to go do baptisms. I know when I was a youth, we would go as a group like once a year. But now I think youth go fairly often if they want to.

Meggan Hayes [03:34:20] It just, I didn't, I didn't think that was even a possibility. We just went as a group. It's not like I was going to wake up at 5am and go do baptisms and go to school. Like nobody was doing that when I was a teenager.

John Dehlin [03:34:31] Yeah. Interesting. Well, clearly there's been abuse of children and youth in temples or they wouldn't be making this change. Of course that happens to. But also, yeah, kudos to them for having more training. I've heard the training isn't very good. I've heard it's pretty shallow and superficial and that it's not given enough. But like you said, we gotta applaud the baby steps. So sincere. Kudos to the church for making some baby steps as it relates to child abuse and child abuse prevention. Juneteenth.

Meggan Hayes [03:35:11] Yeah. So the. This is our next story. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They're one of their official pages posted. Community leaders and supporters in Fort Worth, Texas, gathered on October 7, 2026 to honor Dr. Opal Lee, the civil rights activist known as the grandmother of Juneteenth, on her 100th birthday and to celebrate a major milestone for the future national Juneteenth Museum. As part of the event, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints announced a third three million dollar donation to support the museum's construction. The church also distributed food to local food banks. And then if you go. Is it the next.

Meggan Hayes [03:35:48] Yeah, there's just a short video clip. Community leaders in North Texas gathered in early October to honor Opal Lee, a civil rights activist known as the grandmother of Juneteenth, on her 100th birthday and to celebrate a milestone for the future national Juneteenth Museum. As part of the event, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints announced a $3 million donation to support construction of the museum in Fort Worth's historic Southside neighborhood. Plans for the museum include a genealogy center designed to help visitors discover and preserve family histories.

John Dehlin [03:36:30] All right, Meggan, what's your take?

Meggan Hayes [03:36:32] Yeah, I think this is amazing. Juneteenth is a big deal in this area because there are a lot of people whose ancestors were part of all of that. And actually there is a park that's not far from my neighborhood where they have a tree called the freedom Tree. And it's been here since enslaved folks found out that they were free. And that's where they all met and found out that news. And it's this amazing, huge, beautiful, historic tree. So I love that the church is donating to that. I think it's a worthy cause.

John Dehlin [03:37:06] Yeah, let's say some ex Mormon critics, when the church, like, donates to the NAACP or to some civil rights group, they'll just say it's like crass craven, like pr to kind of buy favorability with. With people of color and. Or to kind of buy repentance for the priesthood ban and the racism for all the past. But I think we. We as ex Mormons have to be careful not to, on the one hand, want the church to improve, and then on the other hand, every time they make an improvement, denigrate it and. And undermine it and devalue it. We have to be consistent. So, yeah, we should celebrate whatever the church does, even if it's small amounts of money or, you know, they're always accompanied by a PR statement. I guess we should be gracious and welcoming when the church does anything to support people of color. Right?

Meggan Hayes [03:38:06] Yeah. Yeah, because it's. It's again, like functioning within the reality that we have. Is the church going to apologize for that? Likely, no. Likely they never will. So in this reality that we have, where they're not going to apologize, then is them giving money to this organization really good for the organization yeah. Yeah. It's allowing them to accomplish goals they otherwise could not accomplish.

John Dehlin [03:38:32] Yeah. And weirdly, there are Mormons out there that are mad about this. Not ex Mormons. What do you want to share about that?

Meggan Hayes [03:38:41] Right. So these were some of the comments and they're quite terrible. Anne Hyatt said, ridiculous. Juneteenth is a made up holiday. Whoever thought this worthy of posting should be ashamed of this themselves.

John Dehlin [03:38:52] Now we should assume. Are we assuming these are faithful Mormons writing this?

Meggan Hayes [03:38:56] I, you know, some of them say something about my tithing shouldn't go there. So I think we can.

John Dehlin [03:39:01] I think it is. It's kind. I think this is like MAGA Mormons and like Desnat Mormons. But. But keep going.

Meggan Hayes [03:39:09] Yeah. So Buffler writer said, y' all have lost your minds. This is absurd. Be ashamed of this. Absolute waste of $3 million. Chatty said Mormon leadership is mimicking Protestant leadership by going woke. They think it'll increase membership but will only do the opposite. Panacea Sykes said, what a complete and total waste of my tithing money. I'm so sick of this.

John Dehlin [03:39:30] Wow. Keep going.

Meggan Hayes [03:39:31] Yeah. Truth from mom. Juneteenth. Really? Church. This is so ghetto and woke. Dr. Gus McCray. Huh? Don't want my tithing used for that nonsense. Daniel Allred what in the hell? Three million for a lie. S Dub yeah, this is why I don't pay tithing anymore.

John Dehlin [03:39:49] Yeah. The church. This is real MAGA Mormons are anti woke and the church is going to lose people on the left and the right. It really can't win. No.

Meggan Hayes [03:40:07] No. Because they have people on all sides and so then people get so upset. I know I. I know what I would do if I was had any influence with the leaders of the church. And it's like we talked about. Like I would push towards empathy, but I would do it knowing that folks like this are going to flee. Because I believe in do what is right. Let the consequence follow.

John Dehlin [03:40:29] That's because you don't have to run an organization, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [03:40:32] Yeah, I know. My organization right now is me and my husband and four kids and like 7,000 pets and that's enough for me.

John Dehlin [03:40:40] It's easy to have values and principles when, when you don't have a large organization to run.

Meggan Hayes [03:40:46] I would probably still have them and then the organization would get small.

John Dehlin [03:40:50] Stay small, never grow. Yeah, that's my experience.

Meggan Hayes [03:40:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:40:55] Have your principles and have no organization or a very small one. That's not always true. I'm being a little bit salty. I also noticed that the church removed Canada, the name of the country, Canada, from a lot of the entries in the Church Handbook of Instructions. And it made me wonder whether, because Trump is anti Canada these days and there's so many Maga Mormons, whether the church felt like it needed to reduce the frequency of Canada being mentioned as a country in its Handbook of Instructions. I don't know what else. I don't know how else to explain that. Did you. Did you read that?

Meggan Hayes [03:41:35] Yeah. Was there some sort of legal. I had to go look into it because. Was there a legal reason they had to do that? Because the policies are different in the US And Canada for something. But it could be both. It could definitely be both.

John Dehlin [03:41:47] Really quickly, Garrett Gong is in the news, in the New York Times as it relates to AI Artificial intelligence and Anthropic. Do you want to read that story?

Meggan Hayes [03:41:56] Yeah, I think people should if they have access and can read the entire article because it was phenomenal. But the New York Times published a fascinating investigation into Anthropic, the company behind Claude AI. Apparently, the company has been privately consulting religious scholars and leaders about how to develop a moral framework for artificial intelligence. And one of those leaders was LDS Apostle Garrett W. Gong. Anthropic is exploring some pretty extraordinary questions, including whether AI could eventually have consciousness or deserve moral consideration. The article doesn't tell us what Gong said or whether he agreed with any of that, but I would love to know what an LDS apostle contributed to a conversation about the morality of artificial intelligence.

John Dehlin [03:42:39] Yeah, Gong is like, he's like a. I don't. Truman scholar, a Fulbright scholar. Like, he's one of those Rhodes scholar. Like, he's objectively brilliant and intelligent and thoughtful and. And probably wise. So he's probably not a bad pick for consulting them. I don't know how moral or ethical his stances are, but it's. It makes sense that he's that guy, you know.

Meggan Hayes [03:43:12] Oh, yeah.

Guest 2 [03:43:13] Well.

Meggan Hayes [03:43:13] And he's been kind of pigeonholed into that role, I think, possibly because of his strengths. But the conversation that Donnie and I were having when I was talking about this with him is like, is. Are religious leaders really the ones that we want? Like, if we look at the history of religion, is that where we're going to go for our moral guidance? Like, I think religion does a lot of good, but there's also a track record of genocide and, you know, like this horrific things done in the name of religion. So that was the more interesting question to me. Like, yeah, if. If Elder Gong is going there, what is he telling them? Morally should be done because hopefully he's not saying what the church did with the SEC is fine. Let's go ahead and program AI to do that.

John Dehlin [03:44:06] Yeah, yeah. The church has pretty weak moral authority these days, whether it's how it treats women or LGBT people or history or its finances or, you know, child abuse stuff. So it is disturbing if the Mormon Church leadership is influencing AI Morality.

Meggan Hayes [03:44:27] Right.

John Dehlin [03:44:28] Ethics that is concerning. But I do think the article is important because, you know, cloud employee, you know, anthropic employees are resigning because they're so concerned about the damage that AI they're seeing is likely going to happen in the next one to 10 years if we don't make ethical AI. It could. Many anthropic employees are concerned that it could spell the end of humanity as we know it. So these are important questions. I don't know that I want the church consulting. I wish they'd choose more ethical, wise, moral consultants, but I'm glad they're thinking about it. That's what I'll say.

Meggan Hayes [03:45:15] Yeah, yeah. And that was the conclusion.

John Dehlin [03:45:18] I mean.

Meggan Hayes [03:45:19] Yeah, yeah. That was the conclusion I came to as well. Like, it's good that they're addressing these questions. I don't know that the religious leaders they're inviting in are the best ones to get answers from.

John Dehlin [03:45:28] No, the religious leaders are literally going to give whatever advice to make it so AI harms the religions the least, right?

Meggan Hayes [03:45:37] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:45:38] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:45:38] They want to preserve their religious structures. They don't want AI to harm that for sure. Like, if AI gets too moral, then does religion have to go away?

John Dehlin [03:45:46] If AI tells people, you don't need to pay your tithing to the church, it's too rich. And the church's history is bunk. Here's the real history. And yeah, the church harms people, and here's why. And the church is hemorrhaging members. And here are the stats. All that stuff's not good for the church. The truth is not good for the church. Morality is not good for the church. Empathy is not good for the church. It's almost like whatever is bad is good for the church, and whatever is good is bad for the church. Things are upside down in 2026, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [03:46:20] Yeah, well, doesn't the Book of Mormon predict that, like, good is called evil?

John Dehlin [03:46:25] Well, unto those who call good evil and evil.

Meggan Hayes [03:46:28] Is that the Bible? It's been too long.

John Dehlin [03:46:30] Well, here's the good news. There's no sexual crime at byu, Idaho. And that's the good news.

Meggan Hayes [03:46:36] Well, hold on A second, John. BYU, Idaho reports zero sexual crimes in 2025. Nolan Bybee, who is the chief compliance officer there, said, I only rely on what is being reported. If I got wind that there might have been a sexual crime, then we would have dug in and investigated it further. Despite the lack of reports, Bybe believed victims could report sexual crimes to BYUI officials without judgment. So this was an article that was done in the BYU Idaho newspaper. The scroll and then. Yeah, so go to the next slide and then we'll do the. The follow up article. BYU Idaho changes its report. What prompted the Correction?

Meggan Hayes [03:47:15] After the October 15 story reported zero sexual crimes scroll, journalists kept investigating. The university amended its report to include incidents from certain contracted student housing complexes that had been omitted. Chief Compliance Officer Nolan Bybee said he had not realized those complexes were within the reporting area. The corrected total went from 0 to 18 with 13 rape reports and 5 fondling reports. A student who had reported a sexual crime in 2025 saw the original zero figure and wondered where her report had gone by. Be acknowledged responsibility, he said, I'm ultimately responsible.

John Dehlin [03:47:53] Wow. So do you think it's not? Oh, and let's show the next slide. Let's go ahead and show the next slide.

Meggan Hayes [03:47:59] Yeah. So reported Sexual Crimes at CES Schools 2020-2025. BYU Idaho's corrected 2025 figure. Because in that original article, like if you go Back to slide 63, they had BYU Idaho like took this spike and then all of a sudden when way down and it was at the bottom and they were so proud. Like if you look there in the middle. Yeah, but then if, yeah, if you go to the last one, it's the corrected where actually BYU Idaho is closer to the top with only BYU having more instances of reported sexual crimes.

John Dehlin [03:48:32] And it's a bigger school, so it's going to have more because it's a bigger school.

Meggan Hayes [03:48:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:48:38] Interesting. So do you think the church was intentionally cooking the books? Do you think this is honestly just one bureaucrat's mistake?

Meggan Hayes [03:48:47] I don't, I don't know how he could look at a town. I mean, Rexburg isn't huge. When I was there, I think the, the town along with the school had like 20,000. It's much bigger than that now. I don't understand. Like, is he so naive that he could think there were zero in an entire year before?

John Dehlin [03:49:03] It's crazy.

Meggan Hayes [03:49:04] Yeah, like, that's ridiculous.

John Dehlin [03:49:06] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:49:06] Like, I don't, I don't. Him putting that out there just doesn't seem like he's in reality.

John Dehlin [03:49:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Meggan, we've come to the end of another four hour Mormon News podcast episode. You do such great work and you're so patient with us having dialogue. I love this time. I cherish it every week. You are a treasure to us all. I'm grateful for the all the good things you bring to Mormon Stories podcast into my audience. I will just share one quick thing.

Support Mormon Stories and Closing Remarks

John Dehlin [03:49:43] I did a little tweak to the Mormon Stories website this week that I've already shared with you. But I'll just show it really quickly that we have, you know, on the Mormon Stories website, in addition to the recent episodes, we now have several shows. They're kind of sub shows. So we've got LDS discussions and which is truth claims.

John Dehlin [03:50:08] We've got the Joseph Smith podcast and the Brigham Young Podcast. And I'm excited to announce now this is an official show on the Mormon Stories website. We've got the Mormon News podcast and there's your amazing profile, Meggan. You made the website and you've achieved official Mormon Stories show status.

John Dehlin [03:50:32] And then of course, we have Second Class Saints and Sandra Tanner and John Larsen and and Margi's Thrive Stories and Simon Southerton science series. But you know, if everyone. We actually have over 50. I'm happy to announce we now have over 50 monthly donors to the Mormon News podcast. So that's better. I think we increased like 20 donors between last time and this time, Meggan. So the good news is we've got 50 donors monthly donors to this series.

John Dehlin [03:51:07] That's the good news. The bad news is we have tens of thousands of listeners. And so what if we just had a hundred? Could we just ask viewers and listeners that value Meggan Hayes, that value a weekly Mormon news show who aren't already donating to Mormon Stories podcast in some way. Can you please become a monthly donor to the Mormon Mormon News podcast? And it's real. We've made it really easy for you to do it. It's super easy. All you got to do is go to mormonnews.com and@mormonnews.com you just go to the top of the page I'm showing you right here. You go to the top of the page, there's a donate button.

John Dehlin [03:52:01] You click on the donate button and it's going to bring you to this little form and you can say 5 bucks a month, 10 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. And you too can become a donor and you can help make sure that this podcast and Meggan's great work gets continued.

John Dehlin [03:52:21] Also, we want to thank everyone for their super Chats, Guitars unplugged. Thank you for your super chat donation. We want to thank lavender A2. Lavender A2 says thank you. Great reporting. And of course, Outer Snarkness is always generous with her donations.

John Dehlin [03:52:41] Outer Snarkness says make sure to vote. Hot people vote. It's science. And she's talking about voting in the upcoming midterm elections. And I agree. Margi and I just voted this week. Please get out and vote however you vote. Voting is super important. And then while you're at it, like, and subscribe to this podcast on YouTube and elsewhere like, and subscribe to Generally Unquotable and all your great work, Meggan, and become a monthly donor. Any final words? Meggan, before we sign off, I just,

Meggan Hayes [03:53:15] when you were talking about that I was on the website, it made me think about the years and thousands and thousands of hours when I was back running half marathons and listening to Mormon stories and deconstructing and feeling like I wasn't alone. Like, for me to be able to be in this space now where I can offer that gift to other people, like, it is a true honor. It's a true honor. I get up every day and I feel, I don't want to say blessed. I feel lucky. I feel grateful that I can give back in this way.

John Dehlin [03:53:57] Well, it's our pleasure. I know it took me way too long, but one of the smartest things I ever did is, is engage with you finally, Meggan, bring you on, you and your sister on and then partner with you on this. So thank you for doing it. I also want to say Rebecca Biblioteca does amazing work in this field. Check out Mormonish. Check out the Mormon newscast with Radio Free Mormon Bill Real. And Rebecca, Rebecca is, is always worth mentioning as well because we, we stand on her shoulders all the time. I'll also just say makes me super happy whenever we get the Beau Oiler endorsement.

John Dehlin [03:54:41] And Beau writes. Such a good episode. Thank you. Thank you, Bo. We love you, Bishop Bo. We love everyone who joins us. Thanks to Trevor Trevanon for moderating. Looks like Julia just rejoined us in the comments. Thanks to Brooklyn and everyone at the Open Stories foundation that makes all this podcast possible.

John Dehlin [03:55:01] And yeah, come join us to celebrate 10 years of radio Free Mormon this this Sunday, go to RFM Celebration mormonstories.org RFM Celebration. If you want to come have dinner with us and to roast and celebrate RFM and maybe have some karaoke. And tonight at 7:00, we're going to have Radio Free Mormon and Wendy on Mormon stories. To celebrate 10 years of radio Free Mormon.

Meggan Hayes [03:55:29] It's amazing. Something else I found out this week that's just a side note is that I am planning on going to St. George thrive and I'm going to bring Donnie this time for those who want to meet him. And my sister Julie, I think is also going to come. And also one of my older brothers and his wife, I think are going to meet us there. So it's really awesome to be deconstructing along with all of you and now some of my siblings.

John Dehlin [03:55:55] I love it. All right, well, the world will be better with more Donnie, more Meggan, more Donnie and yeah, more Mormon stories and more generally unquotable. So thanks for joining us today, everybody. Thanks for the comments, thanks for the donors. Thanks for your support. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of the Mormon News podcast and on Mormon Stories podcast and generally unquotable. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.