Introduction and Episode Overview

Randy Kester [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:05] And welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It is 9-26-23 and today we have a bit of a special episode. Normally on Mormon Stories Podcast I interview people in long form format and then occasionally I bring on a panel to discuss various news events and, and then really occasionally for those of you who are longtime fans, you'll know that sometimes I, I do monologues or a little bit of a rant. And today I've decided that it's time again to do a little bit of a, a solo episode where I play the role of trying to explain to the world and reflect to those of you who listen or, or who watch a bit more about the Mormon angle to a story that may be in the news.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] And if any of you have been paying attention to the news or to Mormon stories over the past several weeks, you'll know that the Ruby and Kevin Frankie family of eight Passengers fame are in the news. Basically, Ruby Frankie, the mother of six children, the Mormon mother, famous YouTuber of the Eight Passengers YouTube channel, is in jail along with Jody Hildebrandt, a Mormon therapist.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] They're in jail for abuse of Ruby's children. And this story has taken the nation by storm. And several media outlets have been covering this and several of Ruby's only own family members have spoken out, whether it be a couple of Ruby's, a few of Ruby's sisters, or Ruby's husband Kevin through his attorney. And one of the things that I feel very, very passionately about is that I believe the kernel, the core, the nucleus of this story is largely being missed by, by the media.

John Dehlin [00:02:22] And so you know, as the host of Mormon Stories podcast, one of the roles I like to play is just to kind of help bring a Mormon angle to help those who haven't thought about it or who just aren't familiar with Mormonism or the Mormon church to help them understand things about the Mormon culture, Mormon doctrines, Mormon teachings, Mormon theology and the Mormon context that inform stories like Chad Daba, Lori Vallon, or in this case the Frankie family in the eight passenger story. And specifically what I want to do is couch this context or illustrate it by a few videos or reactions that have come out by either Ruby's two sisters, two of Ruby's sisters, or again Kevin Frankie, Ruby's current husband, through his attorney.

John Dehlin [00:03:21] But as we, as we kind of talk about that today, we're also going to address several questions that I think many people seem to be asking. Some of those questions are what factors possibly contributed to Ruby's neuroticism. In other words, Ruby, over the past several years has become more and more of a neurotic parent, it seems, and even a neurotic spouse. And so many people just don't understand Ruby's apparent anxiety or neuroticism. And I want to provide a little bit of context, possible context for that. I also want to provide some context for why were Ruby and Kevin so strict. So what is a possible explanation for why Chad was kicked out of his room for seven months?

John Dehlin [00:04:08] What's a possible explanation for why Chad was sent to a wilderness camp? And I'm going to acknowledge at the outset that, that there is going to be some speculation on my part because we don't have the full story. But what I do have is 20 years of covering Mormonism and I have a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology where I've spent, you know, at least six years as a therapist treating Mormon patients or clients of anxiety, depression, and by their own report of addiction.

John Dehlin [00:04:43] And, and I have, you know, 50, 50 plus years following the Mormon Church and understanding how the Mormon Church deals with themes like sexual shame and addiction. And I think all of that is likely at play when it comes to both Ruby and Kevin and how they dealt with their children. I also want to ask, answer the question, what gave Jody Hildebrandt so much power? How has she become so incredibly powerful, so powerful that Kevin himself was afraid to stand up to her? Why was Kevin Frankie alienated from his family?

John Dehlin [00:05:20] And why was he so terribly terrified to intervene with his children once he may have suspected that some abuse was occurring? And then finally, why were Ruby's siblings over the past several years so afraid to speak out publicly? I think we can shine some light on that. And then finally, why did Ruby accuse some of her children of abuse, which was the most outrageous and let's just say horrific or deplorable behaviors on Ruby's part is to publicly through the court proceedings. And maybe she did a private privately, but a journalist leaked it. But either way, most people feel like the way that Ruby outed her, you know, allegedly outed her children as potential abusers as minors was, was deeply disturbing.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] So another way to kind of describe today's episode is what part of the Frankie Jody Hildebrandt's story are we missing? And again, that is why, why I do Mormon Stories podcast to provide that Mormon angle. So to jump right in, what I want to do is lay a really important doctrinal or theological context for, for kind of the, the soil or the milieu that the Franke family and Jody Hildebrandt are operating under.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] And I'm going to start, and I'll ask you just to bear with me as I lay the context. And then once I lay the doctrinal, theological and historical context for what's going on, we're going to play clips from two of Ruby's siblings and clips of Kevin's attorney, and then we're going to discuss those clips in the context of the ground that I lay. So I want to begin with the Holy Bible. There are going to be many people who are Christian who are listening to this episode, who are potentially going to be disturbed that I'm starting with the passage by Jesus in the Holy Bible.

Religious Foundations of Sexual Shame

John Dehlin [00:07:38] But I think it is an important foundation for this story. So break out your Bibles, everyone. Go to Matthew, the first book of the New Testament, chapter 5, verses 28 and 29. And, and I want to begin there Matthew 5, 28, 29 reads, but I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

John Dehlin [00:08:16] We begin there. We begin with Jesus according to Matthew, basically stating through the Bible that to lust upon a woman is a sin next to adultery. We already know that when Moses laid down the Ten Commandments, adultery was one of the ten big no no's in the Ten Commandments.

John Dehlin [00:08:39] So obviously you don't want to break one of the Ten Commandments. But Jesus kind of ups that and basically says, no, no, no, it's even worse if you lust. If you have a lustful desire in your heart for a woman, you've already committed adultery in your heart. That is a crucial foundation to understanding, in my opinion, the Frankie family and Jody Hildebrandt. But it gets worse. Now let's turn to the Book of Mormon, which is core Mormon scripture. And what we're going to now turn to is the Book of Alma, chapter 39, verses three and five. I'll start with verse three. It says, and this is not all, my son.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me, for thou didst forsake the ministry and did go over into the land of Siron, among the borders of the Lamanites after the harlot Isabel. So it's basically sex shaming Isabel, calling her a harlot, and chastising a figure in the Book of Mormon for, I guess, having premarital sex.

John Dehlin [00:09:48] So that's kind of the setting in Alma 39. And then he really lays it out, you know, Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the Mormon Church really lays it out. In verse five, it reads, know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord, yea, most abominable above all sins, save it be the sheep shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost. So in Mormonism, it is absolutely fundamental, core doctrine that the worst sin that anyone can commit in this world is denying the Holy Ghost. In other words, having a confirmation that the Mormon Church is true and then denying it publicly.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] That is the only sin that sends you to what's called outer darkness, which is not even hell, not even heaven. It's this place of eternal nothingness and torment that those who deny the Holy Ghost, those who deny the Holy Ghost get sent. That's the worst thing you can possibly do. The next worst thing you can possibly do is murder. That's sin number two. What Alma does in the Book of Mormon is says right under murder. Right, right under murder.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] Sexual indiscretion is the worst possible sin you can do next to murder. Again, that's not me, that's the Book of Mormon. So you got the Bible laying the foundation in Mormonism for, for the Frankie family and eight passengers of Jody Hildebrandt. You got the Book of Mormon building on top of that. And the last element that you need to create the soup or the milieu or the soil that all of this springs out of, all of this horrific stuff that this comes out of, you need modern day Mormon prophets, seers and revelators. And what now I'm going to do is I'm going to read four quotes from four relatively modern or recent Mormon church prophets, seers and revelators.

Mormon Prophets and Teachings on Sexuality

John Dehlin [00:11:54] The first one that I'm going to read is Heber J. Grant, the seventh Mormon prophet that lived in the mid 20th century. So we're not talking, you know, 19, you know, we're not talking 1800s here. Heber J. Grant lived in the mid 20th century. And this is his quote. There is no true Latter Day Saint who would not rather bury a son or a daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity or, or I'll say moral purity, realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in the world. So there it is, Heber J. Grant, seventh Mormon Prophet, saying that a Mormon parent should rather bury their son or daughter than have them be sexually impure.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] And you think, oh, well, that's just, you know, that's just 70, 80, you know, years ago. You know, that's not the Mormon Church today. Well, let's see. Let's go to David O. McKay, the ninth Mormon prophet. He is quoted as saying, your virtue is worth more than your life. Please, young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives. So again, David O. McKay was the Mormon prophet during my lifetime. So we're not talking about Heber J. Grant. I was born in 69. As I understand it, David O. McKay was still prophet in 69. That was the prophet who was alive when I was born saying that your virtue is worth more than your life.

John Dehlin [00:13:26] Your sexual purity is worth more than your life. It's better to lose your life than to lose your sexual virtue as a Mormon. And then you think, oh, well, that's just like, you know, that's 50 years ago. That's way too long ago. Well, let's go to the next Mormon prophet, Spencer W. Kimball, who was absolutely Alive in the 70s and 80s, 1970s and 80s, Spence W. Kimball wrote, it is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle. Again, that's in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Spence W. Kimball is most known for this horrific book called the Miracle of Forgiveness that was literally assigned reading by all Mormon bishops, by two Mormon Church missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] For 40, 50 years, whenever a Mormon would go to a bishop confessing a sin, the bishop would hand them the Miracle of Forgiveness written by Spencer W. Kimball. That would have awful quotes like that. And it wasn't until the past five to 10 years that the Mormon Church started distancing itself from the Miracle of Forgiveness written by one of its former prophets. And Mormon stories played a small role in helping get the Miracle of Forgiveness taken off the shelves. And we're, or at least taken off the e shelves. And we're, we're proud of that. And if you were to say, John, that's so 70s and 80s, that's not something that would be said.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] Today we have Gordon B. Hinckley, the 15th Mormon prophet, writing, I know what my mother expects. I know what she's saying in her prayers. She'd rather have me come home dead than unclean. Now, again, I'm not claiming that Gordon B. Hinckley taught that, you know, you know, in the later years of his life, he may have, he may have not. But because Mormon church leaders, prophets are taught to be the mouthpieces of God, once Gordon Me, Hinkley becomes the prophet. And even while he's an apostle, anything that he says as an apostle, and he absolutely made this horrendous quote as a Mormon apostle. As a Mormon apostle, that is a prophet, seer and revelator.

John Dehlin [00:15:39] When he made that quote, when it was written down, when it was published in church publications, it became God's law and God's word to Mormons all the way up till today. The Mormon Church does not, does not, does not ever renounce the past statements of its prophets, seers and revelators. So all of these horrendous quotes that I just read you and exists today in the hearts and the minds of Mormon parents, of Mormon grandparents, of Mormon educators, and of Mormon children, because the Church has not and will not denounce or renounce the past statements of its prophets, seers and revelators. And so, you know, hopefully I'm starting to give you a sense of the way the Mormon Church raises the ante, raises the stakes, and frankly strikes fear into the hearts of Mormon husbands, of Mormon wives, of Mormon children, of Mormon grandparents.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] Because, you know, to masturbate, to look at pornography and. Or to masturbate, or even not to look at pornography, but just masturbate with images in your mind of, you know, people with their clothes off. As the Book of Mormon states, as Jesus himself stated, you're almost in adultery at that point just to have those impure thoughts. And adultery is next to murder. So it's like this slippery slope. You start out with impure thoughts, then you become a teenager, you start masturbating and occasionally look at porn, and then you graduate to murder and eventually eternal spiritual death. So those are the stakes. And if you, you know, I just grabbed a law of chastity lesson off of the Internet.

John Dehlin [00:17:24] The law of chastity is the Mormon theological and doctrinal law that Mormons covenant to. By the way, in the Mormon Temple, the law of chastity is that serious within the Mormon Church. And I just grabbed some random slides off of the Internet on the law of chastity. Here's what it says. Top three sins, denying the Holy Ghost, murder and sexual sin. Spencer W. Kimball goes on to write, we need to constantly guard against immorality, pornography and sexual permissiveness that would destroy the purity of family members young and old. Perhaps I sound like an alarmist, but if so, it is because I am alarmed and so are my brethren in the First Presidency and the Council of twelve Apostles and, and other general authorities.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] So again, we have in modern times, Modern Mormon church educators, church education systems, seminary and institute teachers, BYU professors, gospel doctrine teachers, all teaching this law of chastity and associating pornography and masturbation with things like murder and incest, et cetera. And if you don't believe me, here's the next slide. Grounds for church discipline, murder, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, incest, child molestation, etc. So again, it's almost in the minds of a Mormon, dirty thoughts are almost adultery, which is almost murder. But then, of course, if you start masturbating and looking at pornography, you're basically on that slippery slope that for many ends and in incest or pedophilia.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] And again, I'm using very strong words here, but if any of you know anything about the history of Jody Hildebrandt and how she ends up alienating and stigmatizing fathers, and if any of you saw the Adam Steed episode that I recently did, you'll know that one of Jody's techniques is ultimately to get a Mormon husband to, to confess to occasional masturbation or pornography use and then immediately put them down that slippery slope of eventually convincing the wife to accuse the husband, or in the case of the Franks, possibly the children, of abuse, of sexual abuse, or even of child molestation. Because in the minds of a Mormon, they're all just right there.

John Dehlin [00:20:08] It's like bad thoughts, porn, masturbation, sexual abuse, adultery, murder, eternal spiritual death. It's just kind of all right there again, Sputzerdeb Kimmel goes on to write, masturbation, a rather common indiscretion, is not approved of the Lord, nor of his church, regardless of what may have been said by others whose norms are lower. Latter Day Saints are urged to avoid this practice, and anyone fettered by this weakness should abandon the habit before he goes on a mission or receives the holy priesthood or goes in the temple for his blessings. I should also add that in the Miracle of Forgiveness, early editions of the Miracle of Forgiveness, I believe Spencer W.

John Dehlin [00:20:50] Kimball said masturbation leads to homosexuality. And if that were true, all Mormon men, and basically all men would be potentially gay. But that's what has been taught within Mormon culture for a long, long time now. This is the groundwork. And then what you see in the 2000s and in the 2010s, especially with the rise of the Internet, is an entire cottage industry of Mormon approved therapists and networks that bishops relied upon to refer their masturbating youth and husbands, and sometimes wives too, to get support. Because there's no way a Mormon bishop is Going to successfully convince a 12 year old boy or a 15 year old boy or even a 30 year old male to stop masturbating.

John Dehlin [00:21:43] Because, you know, from a mental health standpoint, you know, masturbation is healthy normative behavior. Something like 90 plus percent of men report to masturbate at some point in their lives, if not regularly. And women report lower rates of masturbation and even pornography use. But still women masturbate too. And so if you've got masturbation being the slippery slope to murder and child abuse and spiritual death, bishops don't, Mormon bishops don't know how to solve that problem. They're literally like some plumber, some electrician, some lawyer, some doctor all of a sudden is called as bishop. There's virtually no training. And all of a sudden they're supposed to be responsible for the temporal and spiritual and the mental well being of their ward members.

John Dehlin [00:22:40] And of course they don't know what to do when somebody comes to them confessing. But there are armies and networks of Mormon mental health professionals over the past 20 years that have lifted themselves up as the solution or the cure to this sexual addiction. And one of those groups was and is LifeStar. And if you look at the LifeStar website, it says recovery from compulsive sexual behavior is possible. The LifeStar network. And if you look down below, it's, it says, do I have an addiction? My partner is an addict. Is my teen addicted to pornography? And then it says, become a LifeStar provider. So in all those instances, it's appealing to the fear of a Mormon man or woman.

The Addiction Model and Mormon Sex Therapy

John Dehlin [00:23:35] Do I have an addiction? Am I an addict like a meth addict or a cocaine addict? Am I a sex addict because I masturbate once every three weeks or once a week? Or in the hearts of the spouses, is my husband or my child, Are they addicts? Are they addicted?

John Dehlin [00:23:53] And then of course, it's soliciting Mormon therapists into these networks to get business and to train them to treat healthy normative pornography. Healthy normative masturbation as a, you know, a pathology. And I can just tell you I did six years of a psychology PhD at a Division 1 APA accredited university. Never once would any ethical therapist pathologize masturbation as an addiction.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] In fact, what would be followed would be the guidelines of the American Pediatric association, the American Medical association, the prevailing consensus, consensus among health providers, which is that masturbation is perfectly healthy and normal. So any Mormon therapist who starts pathologizing healthy normative masturbation as an addiction is immediately operating outside of their ethical guidelines because there's no empirical support for that diagnosis. This idea of masturbation being a sex addiction, that's not a thing. That's not in the diagnostic and statistics manual. That's not in the mental health profession. It's a manufactured illness by high demand religions and, or cults. And it's not just Mormons that do this.

John Dehlin [00:25:23] Evangelical Christians, Jehovah Witnesses, Scientologists, you know, Catholics, Orthodox Jews, they all do this too. So even though I focus on the Mormon problem, this problem is much, much bigger than, than just Mormonism. And so what you see as, as the beginning of Jody Hildebrandt's pernicious behavior, as I understand it, is that Jody Hildebrandt was a key franchise owner of the LifeStar network in Utah. Now, I haven't confirmed that, but that's been reported to me. Those of you who are listening or viewing can write in and tell me if I've got that wrong. But as I understand it, prior to Jody Hildebrandt losing her therapy license in 2012, 2013, I believe, thanks to, thanks to the courage of Adam Steed, Jody was a member of the LifeStar network, was recommended by Mormon bishops all along the wasage front, which is like, you know, the, the i15 corridor within Utah.

John Dehlin [00:26:29] Two Mormon couples, when they came to a bishop reporting a porn or a masturbation problem. And so that's where Jody Hildebrandt got her start, as I understand it, is through the LifeStar network. And as Jesse Hildebrandt, who I also interviewed recently on Mormon Stories, the courageous niece of Jody Hildebrandt, as she told in my interview with her on Mormon Stories podcast, is that the Mormon Church not only referred the bulk of Jody's clients to her, but they also paid. They were probably the largest single payer of Jody Hildebrandt's bills. So one thing that everybody needs to understand, who wants to understand the Frankies 8 passengers or Jody Hildebrandt, is that the Mormon Church created Jody Hilda Hildebrandt by sending her clients constantly and by paying her and building up her wealth.

John Dehlin [00:27:28] We know that Jody Hildebrand had a $3.1 million home in Ivan, Utah, near St. George. She had a thriving therapy and group counseling business, and it was created by and funded by the Mormon Church. As I understand it, if I've got this wrong, I, I plea. Please, I need some of you to correct me now, just recently, just in the past couple days, if you think that the Jody Hildebrandt problem The connections problem is a unique, isolated incidence within Mormonism. Check out this article that just came out in on Fox 13 News. The title is Utah Therapist Charged with Abusing Client over Several Years to Fight Her Demon and I'm just going to read Farmington, Utah A therapist based in Davis county has been charged with abusing a vulnerable woman over a span of several years under the guise of providing her therapy.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] Maurice Wade Harker, 54, was charged Tuesday with aggravated abuse of a vulnerable adult and kidnapping, both second degree felonies. According to the charging documents, Harker reportedly repeatedly abused a client of of his between 2012 and 2021. The woman suffered serious injuries throughout his time and she said she even thought she might die during one of his sessions.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] The woman said Harker used aggressive, hands on and even violent tactics. Does that sound familiar? Does that sound like some of the tactics Jody Hildebrandt and even Ruby Frankie was using with her own children? Hands on and even violent tactics, claiming he had to do so because she was possessed by a demon. The victim had been diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and other mental illnesses. She had been abused as a child, court document stated, and Harker preyed upon her vulnerabilities.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] It goes on to say that Harker was the subject of a report by rolling stone in October 2022 in which a former client came forward with allegations of abuse. It goes on to say that Harkers is a fairly well known in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints community. In 2005 he founded LifeChange Services, a pornography addiction treatment group that appears to be based on LDS principles but not directly sponsored or supported by the Mormon Church. But let's just be really clear, the Mormon Church doesn't want the legal liability of directly endorsing and supporting these unethical and violent therapeutic practices. But make no mistake, the Mormon Church keeps the list of the recommended therapists.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] They keep a list of recommended faithful Mormon therapists and healthcare providers and they promote these therapists. They promote things like LifeStar, they promote things like Jody Hildebrandt Connections and they promote things like the Sons of Helaman to its members so that there can be an arm's length difference of accountability and liability, but so that their members can get treatment or support. So don't be fooled that just because the Mormon Church says they don't endorse, they indirectly recommend, refer and pay for these treatments. And I think frankly there should likely be some sort of class action lawsuit that is that is created on behalf of these victims, with the Mormon Church as ultimately responsible for creating this problem, referring their members and paying for these treatments to the detriment of their own members.

John Dehlin [00:31:21] It goes on to talk about the Sons of Helaman website. I'm going to just show you the Sons of Helaman website. This says Eternal warriors, right? And there in the bottom right, is this Maurice Harker character that is now being charged with all sorts of awful things. The last little history lesson that I just want to mention.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] And by the way, if I misgendered Jesse Hildebrandt, I just want to apologize for that. I'm just noticing in the comments that I may have done that Jesse Hildebrandt's pronouns are they, them. And I'm guessing because I sometimes get in automatic speaking mode where I just don't always think carefully about the pronouns I use, I may have misgendered Jesse Hildebrandt. If I did Jesse, I apologize. Jesse's pronouns are they, them. Okay, back to the regularly scheduled program. So not only has the Mormon Church built this foundation, but around 2015, the Mormon Church announced its own addiction and recovery program in the Mormon Church. And we've talked about this on Mormon Stories podcast before, but basically the Mormon Church identified and decided that it liked the Alcoholics Anonymous 12 step addiction program.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] It imported it into Mormon Church policy and practices and teachings and started creating addiction recovery groups all throughout the Mormon Church. Not to treat heroin addiction, not to treat alcoholism, but to treat normative healthy masturbation and pornography use. And so, again, this is the Mormon Church overtly and explicitly endorsing an addiction model for healthy and normative masturbation and an occasional pornography viewing.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] And again, that's where Jody Hildebrandt comes in. And that's where Ruby, Frankie, and the eight passengers come in. And is that the Connections organization that Jody Hildebrand started emerges from her time as a LifeStar therapist, as a sex addiction therapist. And it takes advantage of this Mormon Church dynamic to make normative sexual behavior an addiction. And so the Connections website's there, she promises, Jody promises she can help you create life, life in your relationships. And then she goes on to write, you know, that she spent 25 years working with people just like you. And don't be fooled. You know, when she talks about principles of truth and responsibility and honesty and humility and righteousness, what she's talking about there is she can help cure you or your husband or your kids of the masturbation menace.

John Dehlin [00:34:17] That's exactly what her entire Connections model was Built around. She gets her power, she gets her business model, she gets her referrals and a significant chunk of her revenue from the Mormon Church and its doctrines and its teachings and its theology. Okay, so that was a 34 minute prequel to an analysis of the Eight Passengers family speaking out about Mormon therapist Jody Hildebrandt. And so now what I'm going to do is I'm going to just show some of the reactions and I'm going to comment on them or address them in the context that we just laid out. The first that I have was, was a Instagram announcement from Julie.

Ruby Franke's Family Releases a Statement

John Dehlin [00:35:08] I don't know how to pronounce it. Is it Deru or Deeru? I really apologize. I don't know how to pronounce Julie's last name, but Julie is one of Ruby's sisters and the other is Ellie Mecham. And they released a statement recently on their Instagram channel that said the following.

John Dehlin [00:35:28] For the last three years we have kept quiet on the subject of our sister Ruby Frankie for the sake of her children behind the public scene, we have done everything we could to try and make sure the kids were safe. We wouldn't feel right about moving forward with regular content without addressing the most recent events. Once we do, we will not be commenting on it further. Ruby was arrested, which needed to happen. Jody was arrested, which needed to happen. The kids are now safe, which is the number one priority. So what this reveals is, is that Ruby's family members knew that Jody Hildebrandt was extreme.

John Dehlin [00:36:06] They knew that Ruby had sort of incorporated Jody Hildebrandt's teachings and, but it also admits that they were terrified to speak out. Why were they terrified to speak out? One of the main reasons I am going to suggest is because all of Jody's work at its core was, was around sexual shame. And what sister in law wants to come out publicly and talk about the alleged sexual impurity or impropriety of either their brother in law, which would be Kevin, Frankie or any of the Frankie's children. Because I am absolutely sure that eventually and, and, and Ruby's even now admitted this, that it wasn't just Kevin who is likely targeted by Jody as being within Mormon terms, most likely being deemed as a sexual deviant, as someone who masturbates, as someone who looks important, as someone who should be kicked out of the home and punished.

John Dehlin [00:37:11] But, but, but it looks as though Jody Hildebrandt would have oriented her, you know, Ruby, these children's mom, Ruby would have been oriented towards viewing her own children as addicts as eventual murderers. And I actually have evidence. I mean, spiritual murders. I have evidence of that as well. Now let's go ahead and go to the first video clip. This is a video clip of one of Ruby's sisters. This is Bonnie holing.

John Dehlin [00:37:46] She has 1.4 million Utah, sorry, YouTube followers. And I'm just going to play a few clips from her, from her YouTube video about Jody and Kevin and Ruby. And we're just going to analyze it. So let's play the clip.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:38:06] The first thing that I want to say is that we have kept quiet for three years on the topic of our sister Ruby and Jody and Kevin and Connections. That is what we have stayed quiet about. We did not know what they were doing because, like we said, we were cut off.

Video Clip 1 [00:38:35] We did not have access to anyone. My thoughts towards Ruby and Jody and Kevin and Connections is that it was all bullcrap. It was complete indoctrination of this thing that they created. I don't agree with how extreme they are on everything. I knew they were weird. I knew that they were off.

Video Clip 1 [00:39:04] Those are the things that we kept quiet about, because what was I going to say? What was I going to. I was not going to come out and publicly say that I don't like my sister and I don't like what she's doing, and I think she's weird.

Video Clip 1 [00:39:17] That is what we kept quiet about. It wasn't until about a year ago when we were able to reconnect with Sherry again, we kept that quiet. We never came out and said anything. You guys saw us together. And those were little glimpses when Sherry was ready to allow us to show those glimpses with her permission. And it was then that we were learning slowly bits and pieces of more. And that's where the part of behind the scenes, we did everything that we could. We did everything legally that we could do. And for those that were so saying that they'd go in and bust down doors and do whatever it took to end up in jail, because from jail I can't do anything.

Video Clip 1 [00:40:11] So I still stand by. What I said is that I did everything that I could with the knowledge that I had and within the legal rights to Ruby. And.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] Okay, so a couple things that I just want to comment there. What you have to understand, and you learn about this by talk, by the Adam Steed interview that I did and by his courageously coming out, also by Jesse Hildebrandt's interview. But also I've now spoken with dozens and dozens of Jody Hildebrandt's victims. And what you have to have to understand what was going on within that family most likely is what Jody Hildebrandt's modus operandi was, which is the couple comes to Jody as a couple needing marriage therapy or counseling, usually referred by their Mormon bishop, often paid for by the Mormon bishop. And then sometimes they're referred not just for marital difficulties or parenting difficulties, but if either the husband or one of the children is.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Is alleged to be masturbating. Because if the husband or the children are masturbating, well, they're on that slippery slope to murder and eternal damnation. So they need Jody's help. So they come to Jody, and Jody would begin individually counseling the husband or the wife or the couple or the kids and tease out of them that they are, in effect, sexual deviants, that they are in distortion, that. That they're not living in their truth and that they're committing, you know, by. By the Mormon Church's teachings, sins next to murder. And as soon as you can convince a Mormon mom or a Mormon dad or a Mormon parent or a Mormon kid that they are participating in a sin next to murder, you have their attention.

John Dehlin [00:42:12] You have their willingness to pay any amount of money to. To make any sacrifices to make that sin go away. And what Jody Hildebrandt would do is she would extort or blackmail her patients, make them pay upwards of 2, 3, $4,000 a month. And if they couldn't come up with the two or three or $4,000 a month, they were to pressure their own parents or the grandparents to use their retirement to help finance the therapy that Jody would require. And it would be individual therapy, it would be couples therapy, and then it would be these support groups that Jody Hildebrand would offer through connections. And the entire purpose purposes in these connections therapy and group sessions were to slowly shame usually the husband or the teenager into feeling like they're a horrible, awful, terrible, murderous person.

John Dehlin [00:43:11] And then to convince usually the mom or the mother or the wife to slowly punish and alienate usually the husband for their sin. And if they relapsed, they were to get increasing levels of punishment. So it would begin by sort of the regular old shame that they would get, you know, in a therapy setting as a couple, in front of Jody, or in the support group. But over time, as Adam Steed helped us understand, Jody would encourage the wife usually to drop a contract saying, oh, you haven't been able to stop masturbating. Look, you know, you did fine for two months or one month or three months or Six months.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] But now you slipped up again. And so now I'm going to create a marital contract with you. And the marital contract consisted of something to the effect of, hey, husband, you are no longer allowed to have any physical affection for me. You're no longer to have. No longer allowed any emotional connection. You're no longer allowed to sleep in our marital bed. I'm going to put you in your office. You're going to sleep on a mattress in your office. You're going to sleep on the couch.

John Dehlin [00:44:24] And by the way, you can't even talk to me about any emotional concerns separate from any of these sorts of things. If you're having a faith crisis, we're not allowed to talk about it. All you do is you, oh, I'm not going to cook for you, I'm not going to clean for you. I'm not going to meet any of your temporal needs, even though you know, you're working full time outside the home. And eventually, if you relapse, you get kicked out of the home.

John Dehlin [00:44:51] And once we understand what Adam Steed's life was like, once they're kicked out of the home, if they don't obey Jody, if they continue to live outside their truth or in distortion, then Jody would literally use the legal system to destroy the life of the husband, which meant that they could be accused of child abuse, they could be accused of being a sexual deviant, and eventually a restraining order would be put on the husband.

John Dehlin [00:45:21] And then if that restraining order was violated, and sometimes according to Adam, there would even be entrapment involved. Eventually the husband would end up with felonies and, and their entire name and reputation smeared within the broader Mormon community. So I am not making excuses for Kevin, but I believe, and we'll see if the evidence bears this out, we've already known Kevin's attorney, which we're going to show in a bit. Kevin's attorney alluded to watching my interview with Adam Steed and speaking with other Jody Hildebrandt victims.

Randy Kester [00:45:59] And.

John Dehlin [00:45:59] And it appears as though Kevin's lawyer is acknowledging these tactics were in a. Were in play with Kevin and Ruby and with Jody's overseeing. So that's kind of the playbook of Jody Hildebrandt. And I believe that's why Kevin was so terrified. And frankly, I think that's why Bonnie and other family members were so terrified to speak up, because who wants again to make it known that their brother in law is a sexual deviant or that some of Kevin and Ruby's kids might be sexual deviants? According to Jody Hildebrandt. All right, let's go ahead and go to the next clip.

Guest [00:46:44] And Kevin. The one person that could have done something within his legal right was Kevin. We had zero contact with him. It was Kevin's job to check in on things, and he did not. So when I say that Ruby and Kevin and Jody and connections have been destroying our lives offline for the last three years, that is exactly what they've been doing, causing turmoil within our family, us. We would talk in circles because nothing made sense.

Guest [00:47:24] Nothing made sense of what they were saying, of what they were doing, and it was off the wall. We didn't. We couldn't make sense of what they were doing and why. And this is where my anger comes in. Their actions have cast the worst light on me, on other members of our family, and I have decided that I am no longer allowing them to. To have any control over what I do. I didn't post because I physically couldn't. I physically could not turn my camera on. I physically could not come up with a structured thought in my mind. I felt completely, completely out of my mind. This has hurt every single person in our family, and watching it hurt my husband makes me mad. I have stood by.

John Dehlin [00:48:31] So, again, you know, I totally understand what Bonnie's trying to say here. She is angry. She feels like the one person that could have stopped all this was Kevin. I think it was absolutely his parental duty to do so.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] I think that he was derelict. He was likely derelict in his duty to stand up to Jody and Ruby. I do think there's good indication that he didn't know the extent to which the abuse was occurring, but there was a lot of abuse that clearly. Or abusive parenting that clearly he did know about. What I want to introduce into the context is, you know, the understanding that we get from Adam Steed's interview on Mormon stories and from all the Jody Hildebrandt victims that I've heard of. I can guarantee you Kevin Frankie was terrified that if he were to ever contradict Ruby or Jody, he was going to be painted as a sexual deviant in his community, which in Mormonism is a fate worse than death.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] I cannot emphasize that enough. So that's what he was dealing with. And if you look at the way that Jody Hildebrandt systematically destroyed the life of Adam Steed, you will. You will get a sense of for what Kevin Frankie was likely terrified about. Now, we'll have to wait till the full evidence comes out so that we can get a clear picture. But. But this is What I'm guessing was was at play. Let's go ahead and go to the next clip from Bonnie.

Family Describes Years of Isolation and Cut-Off

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:50:15] Three years ago, Ruby and Kevin cut our family off. And eventually they cut Kevin's family off as well. And I thought that was going to end. My mom, she literally had a heart attack. She went into kidney failure. Her body was shutting down because it broke her. So you can only imagine what she is going through now, how we are all feeling now. And I'll only speak for myself, but Ruby and Kevin are not where my concern lies anymore. So it is difficult to have the blame put on us when these are not the actions of us. These are not the actions that we did. I get people wanting to put blame somewhere.

Video Clip 2 [00:51:05] I do.

Video Clip 2 [00:51:05] They want to blame someone. There's only one person that could have helped, and he didn't. What he was doing all that time when him and Ruby were separated is beyond me. I will not let Ruby and Kevin and connections and Jody take one more thing away from me. So you better believe I will continue to post, because if that is what tiny control I have left, I'm gonna take it. I'm gonna take control and do what I feel.

John Dehlin [00:51:39] So the one. The one last thing I want to say about Bonnie that I'm just noticing is on the one hand, she wants to say that for three years, she's known about Jody Hildebrandt and the extreme things that she was doing. She words like bulk. She uses words like bull crap and indoctrination.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] Well, indoctrination into what? What was the bull crap? What extreme things were they doing? So Bonnie must have known to some extent what Jody Hildebrandt and Ruby were teaching and practicing and doing with Kevin and with the K.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] So for her to say the one person that could have done something was Kevin, it seems like she is probably at least subconsciously realizes that maybe she and her other family members had maybe a bit more of a duty to speak out. And. And they maybe could have spoken out more vociferously in ways that maybe Kevin wouldn't have been able to.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] Because if. If Ruby's sisters were to have spoken up about what Jody and Ruby were doing in the family, they would not likely have been smeared and shamed and litigated against to the. To the extent that Kevin would have been. They may have harmed their relationship with their sister, but it sounds like Ruby had already cut them off. And so I do think that Bonnie and her siblings share at least a little bit more of the responsibility than what Bonnie, you know, seems to Be indicating there. Okay, so those are. Those are some quick reactions to Bonnie's video. Now I'm going to play Julie, Ruby's sister Julie's video, where she gives her reactions as well. So let's cut to the clip. And if y' all could tell me how to pronounce Julie's last name, I'd be forever grateful.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [00:53:39] We are. Three years ago, Ruby, everything was great. It seemed to be fine. Anyway, we were typical family. She was getting some therapy, counseling because their family needed it, which I think is great. However, I think you need to get it from a great source. Read the reviews. Jody Hildebrandt and her website or therapy style, I don't know what you want to call it. Connections was not a great resource. And we all saw it. We all felt weird about this Jody lady. We didn't. We weren't comfortable with it. We didn't like it. We didn't like the teachings Ruby was bringing to the family functions. And we were this close to telling her, if you come to our family events anymore, we do not want to hear what you were learning through connections, because we don't like it.

Video Clip 3 [00:54:22] We never did say that to her, but we thought it anyway. So three years ago, Ruby and I hung out bottling tomatoes. And then a few weeks later, crap hit the fan and she left the family. And she didn't even call me to say, hey, you know, Julie, you're doing this and this. I don't like it. You're living your life in distortion, so I'm gonna have to take some time away from you. No, literally nothing. She did call my mom and yelled at my mom on the phone for 45 minutes and accused her of things that were not true.

Video Clip 3 [00:54:53] It was almost as if Ruby had been making up memories from her childhood. She was trying to grab it anything she could, and she would exaggerate on everything. So she started all of her lies back then, lying to everyone in her life, getting rid of all of her friends and family. And I literally had no contact with her. She wouldn't respond to any texts or emails. Over the time that I tried reaching out to her, never got a response from her. So. So I was very fortunate to have been able to reach out to her daughter Sherry, once.

John Dehlin [00:55:29] She was really quickly. I just want to step in and just note something. One of the things we try and do on Mormon Stories podcast is provide cult awareness. We don't call the Mormon Church a cult on Mormon Stories podcast that, you know, telling someone that they're a member of a cult or calling their church a cult we just find isn't productive, isn't healthy.

John Dehlin [00:55:51] It just creates the backfire effect. It makes people feel defensive and reactive. But we do try to educate our listeners and our viewers about the characteristics of high demand religions or cults or unhealthy organizations. And I just want to highlight a very critical thing. And by the way, religions aren't the only things that can be cults. Yoga instructors can be cult leaders.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] You know, therapists can be cult leaders, businesses can be, can be cult like organizations and you know, self help groups can, can operate in a cult like way. And absolutely. A classic cult technique, regardless of how it manifests organizationally or religiously, is when your organization or your leader is actively seeking to alienate you, to isolate you from your family. That is a sure sign of a cult. And here if you were to take Jody Hildebrandt and line up the traits of a cult. If you were to take Luna Lindsay Corbden's book Recovering Agency, Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control or if you were to use Stephen Hasson's book Combating Cult Mind Control and you were to list out all the techniques of the ways a cult leader behaves, I guarantee you Jody Hildebrandt and connections would meet criteria for a cult leader and connections would meet criteria for a cult.

John Dehlin [00:57:29] But I just want everyone to know, any organization that seeks to alienate you from your spouse, from your children and from your extended family, the cult alarm bells should be going off. And here we have Julie Derue. I'm being told that's how to pronounce her name.

John Dehlin [00:57:47] Julie Derue is describing cult like behaviors by Jody Hildebrandt in in how Ruby was systematically isolated from her family members. And it is heartbreaking to say the least. So let's go ahead and continue as an adult.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [00:58:07] And we were able to form a really close, strong relationship, which I am grateful for. And it was then that I learned more about Ruby and it was then that Sherry had learned about lies that had been told to her. I feel like me and my other sisters have said we feel like we've just been kind of floating on a cloud here these past few weeks.

Video Clip 4 [00:58:29] It we are in complete shock still as to what she had done because we had no idea of what was happening. Basically I'm here to, to say that I had no idea what was happening. Like Bonnie mentioned in her video, we are not going to let Ruby destroy another thing in our lives. We have our platforms where we try and bring brightness and positivity into other people's lives. And that is why we didn't talk about Ruby in our content for the past three years. Yeah, we try and show the highs and lows of everyday family and parenting, but Ruby's topic was not supposed to be part of that content and it was none of your business.

Video Clip 4 [00:59:07] It was nothing that we needed to talk about. And I wasn't sure if her kids were maybe still watching these videos. And I didn't want to be not tactful and slander their mom and then have them watch those videos. That didn't sound like a nice thing to do either. And so that is another reason why we didn't talk about the subject of Ruby for the past few years on my channel. However, as far as my platforms go, I do want to continue them, but the content will probably look a little bit different. I have some pre recorded videos before all of this fell apart that I will be posting and then after those

John Dehlin [00:59:41] videos, I'm just gonna go ahead and stop it there. And again, I just want to make sure you understand that when they talk about slander, right, when they talk about being worried about, you know, what they might say in public about Ruby or Kevin or the kids, what I think a lot of people are going to encode in their minds are Ruby's extreme behaviors in parenting on a superficial level. So the cutting off the head of the doll or the, you know, or the, you know, not taking her six year old lunch when her six year old forgot to make lunch. But, but, but here's the problem.

John Dehlin [01:00:21] Those are the things everybody already knew. So what are the secret things that Ruby's family members are afraid to say publicly so that they don't slander and shame Ruby and Kevin and their kids. And I'm telling you, I would be willing to bet $100,000 that when the evidence comes out, Jody Hildebrandt had introduced the issue of sexual shame, of porn, of masturbation into the family in ways that became toxic for Ruby, became toxic for Kevin, and became toxic for the children. And that made it terrifying for family members, including Kevin, but also Ruby's siblings. That made them terrified to speak out. And by the way, I've known about Jody Hildebrandt's victims for four years, but I can't make an allegation on secondhand information or I risk defamation.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] And so after victim after victim after victim have come to me telling me the ways that Jody destroys families through sexual shame. I would say, can you come on Mormon stories? Can you come on Mormon stories? And none of them have been willing to, because again, to be labeled as a sexual deviant in Mormonism is a fate worse than death. And so that's what's going on here with all of these family members. And so everybody is trying to figure out, you know, who's to blame and what's at the root. And I think we've kind of covered that. So now what I'd like to do is to end the last set of video segments that I'm going to share are from Kevin's lawyer.

Kevin Franke's Attorney Speaks Out

John Dehlin [01:02:12] And he's going to do his best on Law and Crime YouTube channel to defend his client. And so let's go ahead and watch Kevin, you know, speaking out indirectly through his attorney to try and give Kevin's a bit of Kevin's perspective story.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [01:02:33] But there is one person in this story that people are talking a lot about, and that is Kevin Frankie. Now, while Ruby's husband has not been criminally charged by authorities, his role has taken center stage. It's got a lot of people talking. Well, joining me right now to unpack that is Kevin Frankie's attorney, Randy Kester. Randy, thanks so much for coming here on sidebar.

Video Clip 5 [01:02:57] You're welcome.

Video Clip 5 [01:02:58] I think the best place to start is how's your client doing right now?

Video Clip 5 [01:03:04] He's busy. He's struggling, trying to make sense out of what's happened to him in the last 13 months and kind of coming out of a fog.

Video Clip 5 [01:03:15] So in other words, he was completely taken off guard by these allegations? Completely shocked.

Video Clip 5 [01:03:22] Absolutely shocked.

Video Clip 5 [01:03:25] Where was he when he found out about this?

Video Clip 5 [01:03:27] He. He was at work.

Video Clip 5 [01:03:29] And how did he find out? He found out on the news. Did someone call him?

Video Clip 5 [01:03:34] He got a call from Ruby.

Video Clip 5 [01:03:37] He got a call from Ruby Frankie?

Video Clip 5 [01:03:39] Correct.

Video Clip 5 [01:03:41] You mean while she was. After she was arrested before. Can you elaborate on that?

Video Clip 5 [01:03:48] Sure. She had heard what was going on and knew they were coming for her and called him and said this is an emergency, even though she hadn't. She hadn't reached out to him for months and months and months before that. She reached out to him when it was an emergency, knowing she could rely on him to help his kids.

Video Clip 5 [01:04:14] So in other words, you're saying she knew the police were coming to arrest her. She calls Kevin to say, take care of the kids. How did she know the police were coming? Because again, the reporting indicates is that her son. I had escaped that house and called and went to a neighbor, and that's when the authorities were alerted. Do you know how she knew they were. They were coming?

Video Clip 5 [01:04:33] I would never want to Predict anything that she might know? I. Kevin doesn't know. He doesn't know. I don't know how she knew what was going down. All he knows is he got a text from her that said, emergency, need to speak with you. He was at work. And text back and said, I'm at work. What's up? And she said, I need to speak to you immediately.

Video Clip 5 [01:04:59] And he then they spoke on the phone?

Video Clip 5 [01:05:02] Correct.

Video Clip 5 [01:05:04] And that's when she told him.

Video Clip 5 [01:05:05] Actually, I think most of it was. Yeah, they did speak on the phone.

Video Clip 5 [01:05:08] So they spoke on the phone. And when she told him that the police were coming, what did he say?

Video Clip 5 [01:05:15] She. She actually didn't say that. She just said, you need to get down here.

Video Clip 5 [01:05:20] Need to get down here. And what did he say about that?

Video Clip 5 [01:05:24] He said, down where? And when she told him that she was in Ivan's, he responded and said, what are you doing in Ivan's? And was told. She then told him that the kids were down there, some of the kids were down there, and he needed to come down. And he said, well, how long have you been in Ivan's? He didn't. He didn't. He wasn't even told that she had taken the kids.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] Okay, so there are just a couple really important points that need to be made there. Why was Kevin not living with Ruby? Kevin was not living with Ruby because Jody isolates husbands from wives. I guarantee you it's going to come out that at some point, Kevin was either confessed to masturbating or was caught masturbating. So he got labeled as a sex addict by Jody, to Ruby, and slowly, all the same punishments that were meted out to Adam Steed, to the dozens of other Jody Hildebrandt victims. Slowly, Kevin would have been not sleeping in the bed with. With Ruby. He would have been sleeping on the sofa.

John Dehlin [01:06:37] Sofa, sleeping on a mattress. And eventually, Jody would have told Ruby, the only way to save your marriage is to kick Kevin out, to punish him for. For living out of harmony, for. For living in dissonance or living in distortion, and for being a, you know, a sex addict. And so only after he's been kicked out of the home and then repents and forsakes his behavior, should you ever consider letting him back in. And while he's out, he's to have no contact with the children or minimal contact with the children.

John Dehlin [01:07:16] And if he tries to mess with us, we'll destroy his life, like Jody did with Adam Steed. And so that's why Kevin is not in touch with his kids. That's why Kevin doesn't know the extent to which Jody and Ruby are torturing their children.

John Dehlin [01:07:33] Definitely because Jody would have isolated Kevin. Jody often taught again that you have to destroy a marriage to save it. That was one of her core teachings. And Kevin would have been further alienated from his children as Jody was able to convince Ruby to label Kevin as a sex addict. And whether or not they would have used those words with with Kevin and Ruby's children, it would have been made known in one way or another that Kevin wasn't worthy, that Kevin wasn't doing what he should, and that he had to be kicked out of the home that Mommy and Daddy had to separate because Daddy's got some sins he needs to repent for and work out.

John Dehlin [01:08:19] And so that's what was going on. And I if it, you know, it may be that Kevin knew everything. But but if the evidence comes out that Kevin had no idea the extent to which the kids were being abused and tortured, it would not surprise me. I want to take a second to thank those of you who are donating through the Super Chats feature Laura Sinkonen donated thank you Laura. Life Take Two donated as well.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] She writes, John, our stake president, flew him out to work with the stake and referred us to him. He destroyed our lives. I'm guessing that she is talking about the therapist that I mentioned previously, the Davis county therapist, Maurice Wade Harker. And you know, Life Take Two. I am just so sorry that the Mormon Church referred an unethical therapist to you and your family and then it ended up contributing to the destruction of your family. I want to thank everyone who also donates to Mormon Stories podcast as well. Your donations make this possible. The only you know ad I'll make is right now during this show.

John Dehlin [01:09:29] Please, if you love this value this programming. If you want to see continue please become a monthly donor@mormonstories.org click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor and we will continue creating content like this for you. We're a nonprofit and we rely on your donations to be able to make all this possible. If you can't donate or even if you can, We've got over 5,000 people joining us on the live stream. Please take a moment to like this episode right now.

John Dehlin [01:09:56] I would love to see 5000 likes on this episode. Please subscribe to the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel and subscribe to us on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok when you like or comment like and comment on these episodes. When you subscribe to this channel. It encourages YouTube to share share this video with the world and that helps get this message out. So if you agree with this framing, if you agree with this message and you want to see the news media and, you know, Mormons and members of other high demand religions understand the full context of what's going on, you liking and supporting this channel will make all that possible.

John Dehlin [01:10:37] Also, thank you to Brady for your donation and and to Daniel John Kerry as well. Okay, I'm going to go ahead and continue and go ahead and play the next clip. This is again, Kevin, Frankie's attorney representing Kevin.

▶ Video Clip 6

Video Clip 6 [01:11:00] Let me unpack that a little bit. So first of all, their current status, were they separated?

Video Clip 6 [01:11:06] Correct.

Video Clip 6 [01:11:07] They were separated, I read, for 13 months. So they weren't living with each other. How much was he seeing the kids?

Video Clip 6 [01:11:15] Almost not at all, actually. Not at all.

Video Clip 6 [01:11:19] Why is that? Why is that?

Video Clip 6 [01:11:21] Because she told him it was better, that they needed to work on their marriage and needed to keep their family together, but that everything was better off with him not in the home and not communicating with the children, if you can.

Video Clip 6 [01:11:34] Why were they separated? What was the catalyst?

Video Clip 6 [01:11:39] I probably shouldn't go into that. That's. That's pretty private. But let's just say they were. They had a difference of opinion about their family.

Video Clip 6 [01:11:53] Parenting, I know you can't talk about, but is it that kind of where we're going?

Video Clip 6 [01:11:57] Correct. Okay, so let me again, in their own personal dynamic.

Video Clip 6 [01:12:04] Okay, so he was living separate from her. Was he calling the kids? Because I think what a lot of people are looking at this and they're wondering, well, what did he know? So he might have been living separately from her for 13 months, but he wasn't calling the kids, checking in on the kids, seeing how they're doing. He's the father.

Video Clip 6 [01:12:22] I totally understand that. That was the big question on my mind. And the big question, a lot of people, if you read everything that's in the media, he's getting raked over the coals for that. But what people don't understand is that he was trying to preserve his marriage. He was taking direction from her. She's the one who asked him to leave the house and indicating that in order for him to be able to get back together with her and be a family, that she was requesting that he leave the home and that he not contact them or the children later told him that everything was blissful at home. It was so much better without him.

Sexual Shame as a Root of the Abuse

John Dehlin [01:13:06] All right, so I don't know if any of you noticed it. I'm noticing some of you in the comments picked up on it. I would be willing to bet $100,000 that when they talk about parenting differences, one of the differences is going to be the extreme use of sexual shame to shame the children. I guarantee you that Chad sleeping on a beanbag for seven months was about more. This is their son Chad was about more than Chad playing some pranks. I guarantee you that their son Chad had been sexually shamed for engaging in normative teenage behaviors and he, based on Jody's recommendations and practices and Ruby would be partly responsible for this.

John Dehlin [01:13:51] Chad was sleeping on a beanbag because he was caught, you know, doing, you know, caught masturbating or looking at porn. I, I'd be willing to bet a hundred thousand dollars that there's truth in that statement. I would also be willing to bet the Chad the Sun Chad being sent to a, to a nature rehabilitation group or center, whatever it was called, that therapeutic nature wilderness survival treatment facility that he was sent to. I guarantee you from the parents perspective, it, it was in part out of the Mormon Church's teachings on sex and sexual shame. And in fact I watched a video clip, maybe it was an audio clip where Ruby actually states that she knew that her son Chad was going to end up in prison for life if she didn't get more serious and, and punishing in the way that, that she parented Chad.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] And I guarantee where in the world would Ruby come up with the idea that Chad was going to end up in prison? And I guarantee you it's the slippery slope of bad sexual thoughts. Porn and masturbation leads to sex, which is the sit next to murder. And you may as well be abusing children, which is going to lead Chad to be in prison. I would be willing to bet $100,000 that these dynamics are at play in Ruby's relationship with Chad and in Ruby's relationship with Kevin. There were also reports that that Chad's either bedroom or bathroom door was removed. And there are reports of Ruby saying that children didn't deserve privacy.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] Again, that was all based on this fear and paranoia that kids would commit the sin next to murder. Finally, when you hear Kevin's lawyer or attorney talking about parenting differences and a personal dynamic between Kevin and Ruby, I can guarantee you that these issues of sexual shame were at play, which were partly what led again to Kevin being kicked out of the home and being alienated from his children. All right, there are other clips in, in this video that I'm going to skip.

John Dehlin [01:16:18] It basically talks about Kevin, Kevin's attorney, saying that Kevin had no idea that the kids were being mistreated, that Kevin didn't even know that the kids had been taken to Ivan's, Utah. We'll see if that's true. But that's what Kevin is alleging through his attorney. Let's go ahead and jump to the point where Kevin's attorney talks about Jody Hildebrandt's role in. In the marriage.

▶ Video Clip 7

Video Clip 7 [01:16:44] What does he say about Jody Hildebrandt?

Video Clip 7 [01:16:50] That she's manipulated him in conjunction with Ruby. That she's been kind of the spearhead toward essentially destroying his life and destroying his family.

Video Clip 7 [01:17:00] How did Jody and Ruby get connected? Does Kevin know?

Video Clip 7 [01:17:04] I don't know. I don't know.

Video Clip 7 [01:17:08] Is this Kevin? I mean, again, is Kevin believing that perhaps it was Jody who was manipulating Ruby in this, or. Because it also sounds like Kevin feels he was manipulated by Ruby. Is it. Is it just all the blame on Jody?

Video Clip 7 [01:17:23] I think it was a team effort. But with Jody being the spearhead and creating a situation that's just caused all of this destruction of his family, why

Video Clip 7 [01:17:36] does he believe that Jody is manipulative? What makes him believe that?

Video Clip 7 [01:17:42] Probably shouldn't go into that, but we recently reviewed a. Another website, an interview with Jody's niece who described to the public exactly what she had done. That's Mormon Stories, what Jody had done to the niece and her family. And we're hearing other information that she's done this to a number of families. And it wasn't until this all came to light that Kevin came to realize that his family had also been victims, victimized by Jody.

John Dehlin [01:18:16] All right, so. So there it is, reporting that Jody was the spearhead, that. That she had been victimizing others. Again, I want you to refer you to Jesse Hildebrandt's amazing Mormon Stories podcast interview. We'll include that in the show notes, as well as Adam Paul Steed's interview on Mormon Stories podcast. Because you really can't understand this whole story without understanding, without hearing Adam and Jesse's story. But Jody Hildebrandt definitely was the spearhead. And let's see. He goes on to say that Kevin was really not in touch with the kids. By Ruby and Jody's request, he mentions that Kevin was disconnected from the family. Let me go ahead and play the clip about the claims that the children were engaged in some sort of abuse.

Guest 3 [01:19:13] I'm sure you know that there was a hearing last week where Ruby, Frankie, and I believe it was over Zoom. She made quite the allegations. She said that one of her children was abusing another. One of the children was abusing cousins and neighbors. That is quite the claim. What is your client's take on that?

Randy Kester [01:19:36] Well, because it occurred during juvenile court proceedings. The reporter who snuck into the proceedings reported that damaged these children in this family even more. It was despicable what they did in reporting that. And, but because again, I have an agreement with the court that I'm not, I won't speak about the children, particularly won't speak about proceedings that occurred in the confines, the sanctified confines of that juvenile court. I'm not going to comment on that.

John Dehlin [01:20:11] Two things I want to say about that based on my experience within Mormon culture. The Mormon Church's obsession with pathologizing normative, you know, masturbation as an addiction and as a sin next to murder makes it so. Porn and masturbation are constantly discussed in Mormon families, in Mormon households and in Mormon churches.

John Dehlin [01:20:38] That makes kids and teens and adults think more about porn and masturbation because it's constantly discussed. Kids, Mormon kids. I can't tell you how many people I've interviewed on Mormon stories who didn't even know who learned what masturbation was by their Mormon bishop who would sit alone with them when they were 12 or 13 and asked them if they masturbated. And the Mormon parents hadn't even discussed masturbation with their kids. They heard about and learned about masturbation for the first time when their Mormon bishop asked them alone in a room. So imagine a 12 year old girl, Mormon girl alone with the bishop and, and the bishop asks the 12 year old girl alone in the room, do you masturbate?

John Dehlin [01:21:23] And then she says, what's that? And then the Mormon bishop goes on to tell her what it means. That's how many Mormon kids are introduced to the topic of masturbation by the church, by their bishop. And so if the Mormon Church is constantly talking about and striking fear into the hearts of their parents and children about porn and masturbation, it's on the minds of, of the parents and the kids all the time. So you've got the Mormon doctrine of theology establishing that foundation. And then bishops referring their, their teens and their adults to therapists like Jody Hildebrandt to get treatment. And then Jody Hildebrand just builds on that, makes millions of dollars and terrorizes the youth and the adults.

John Dehlin [01:22:08] That's, that's the con here. That's what's at play. And I know I'm kind of repeating myself here, but the Mormon Church creates the problem by making sex and sexual shame and obsession so that actually porn and masturbation use are probably more prevalent per capita in Mormon culture than outside of Mormon culture. There have been reports by companies like pornhub that per capita Utah leads the nation in per capita porn use. And I guarantee you it's in part because of the Mormon Church's obsession with talking about porn and masturbation from the time kids are 2 and 3. So if in the Frankie home there were kids who were looking at pornography at ages 3 or 4, which is what, which is what Ruby apparently claimed in her trial, if that's happening, it's got to be in part because the Mormon Church and Jody Hildebrandt and the Frankies are constantly fearing it and talking about it in the family.

John Dehlin [01:23:13] And so, you know, whatever, that's a huge problem. And that could explain some of the sexual dysfunction within the Frankie family. And the only other thing I'll say is Jody Hildebrandt used alleging sexual impropriety on others as a weapon.

John Dehlin [01:23:34] And so if any kid disagreed with Jody or any adult or husband disagreed with Jody, she would say, you're living a lie, you're living in distortion, you're probably a sex addict, or you're probably an addict of some kind. And again, Adam Steed discussed this. And so the fact that sexual shame would be weaponized to the point where Ruby would accuse her own children of being abusive kids or predators or whatever, that's totally on brand with Jody Hildebrandt's form of Mormon therapy is, you know, sort of this witch hunt of seeing addicts everywhere, of seeing sex addicts everywhere. Because even to have a thought, according to Adam Steed, his report of Jody Hildebrandt, even to have a sexual thought is to be a sexual addiction, sort of in embryo.

John Dehlin [01:24:29] Now it is also possible that their 5 or 10 year old kid is guilty of some sort of abuse. But what type of environment would create kids that are abusing at the ages of 5 or 8 or 10? And again, all of this could be made up in a total fabrication of Jody and Ruby's paranoid sex obsessed mind. So I do not want to communicate that the kids are actually guilty of any of these allegations. It's more likely that these are distortions in the minds of Jody and of Ruby and false allegations than it is that these are actual factual allegations. So I think that's a really important thing to mention.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] The attorney goes on to basically say that the reporting that outs the kids is despicable. And, and I think he would probably agree, he can't disparage Ruby, but I think he would probably claim that her allegations against her own kids are despicable as well. The video ends with Kevin, Kevin's attorney, talking about steps that Kevin's going to be taking to get his kids back, whether or not he is going to be named as a criminal defendant, which the attorney doesn't know at this point. And he ends by saying that Kevin has never shown any violent behavior, that he's working to get custody. And he ends by saying that Kevin is a victim of psychological and mental manipulations.

John Dehlin [01:26:06] And if, if you look at Jody Hildebrandt's track record, I think there's going to be some credibility to that. So I would like to thank, I would like to summarize what we've learned today. First of all, I want to just sort of summarize the questions that we've hopefully answered today.

What Gave Jodi Hildebrandt Her Power

John Dehlin [01:26:29] So we asked what factors possibly contributed to Ruby's neuroticism? I guarantee you that Ruby, the social media exacerbated it. The constant need to exploit your children for clicks and views contributed to it. The constant need of social media to give more and more sensationalistic content contributed to it. I am going to add that the missing ingredient that reporters and Mormons and never Mormons are probably missing is Jody Hildebrandt's pathologizing of sexual shame as a really important contributing factor to Ruby's neuroticism, to her ultimate estrangement from Kevin and to Ruby's estrangement from Chad, her son and other children. I guarantee that's a factor in Ruby's neuroticism.

John Dehlin [01:27:23] Why were Ruby and Kevin Frankie so strict? Again, let's go back to the Mormon Church's teachings on parenting and sexual shame. Heber J. Grant, Mormon Prophet says no true Latter Day Saint would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity, realizing that chastity is more value than anything else in the world. Again, Heber J. Grant saying sexual purity is more important than your kids own lives. So if your kid is better off dying than committing a sexual sin, surely it's justifiable to tie their wrists with duct tape or to tie their ankles in ducts, duct tape to deprive them or food of food or water, to malnourish them, to dehydrate them.

John Dehlin [01:28:17] If you are doing it in the service of saving their souls from eternal damnation, I guarantee you sexual shame was at the root of the duct tape, the handcuffs, the kid, the isolating of the kids and the physical torture and, and the starvation and the dehydration that the kids experienced. Again, David O. McKay, your virtue is worth more than your life.

John Dehlin [01:28:47] Please, young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives. Again, I guarantee you, by the time this story's over, Ruby will say that Jody had her in such paranoia about her kids and her husband involved in sexual shame that she felt it was better to bind them in duct tape and to imprison them than to risk that they commit further sexual sin.

John Dehlin [01:29:12] Again, we have Spencer Debbie Kimball saying it is better to die in defending one virtue than to have lost it without a struggle. And then finally, Gordon B. Hinckley saying, I know what my mother expects. I know that she's saying her prayers. She'd rather have me come home dead I than unclean. And again, better that your kids are tortured and imprisoned than unclean. At least that's stopping short of actually murdering your kids. So, other questions that we've tried to answer today. Why was Chad Frankie likely kicked out of his room and sleeping on a beanbag chair for seven months? Why was Chad likely sent to a wilderness camp?

John Dehlin [01:29:58] I guarantee you, I'm willing to bet that sexual shame, Mormon sexual shame is at the root of that. What gave Jody Hildebrandt so much power? She was able to terrorize Ruby and Kevin into believing that her kids souls were going to be destroyed, that they might commit sins worse than murder or almost as bad as murder. And Kevin was probably already committing sins nigh un to murder. That's what gave Jody Hildebrandt her power. Mormon theology and Mormon doctrine around sexual shame go back to the beginning if you missed that part, it's the most crucial part of this entire presentation. Why was Kevin Frankie alienated from the family?

John Dehlin [01:30:44] Because Mormon bishops referred Jody Hildebrandt to Mormon couples and Mormon families. Jody Hildebrandt was created by the Mormon Church. Jody Hildebrandt was referred to endless Mormon families by the Mormon Church. Jody Hildebrandt was funded by the Mormon Church, according to Jesse Hildebrandt, Jody's own niece. And so Jody got her power, ultimately from the Mormon Church, its doctrine, its theology, and its own referral and financing.

John Dehlin [01:31:21] That's where Jody Hildebrandt got her power. And that's why Kevin was alienated from the family. And that's why Kevin was terrified to intervene with his children, because he was afraid that Jody would wield the sexual shame within Mormon culture to destroy his life, as Jodi Hildebrandt did with Adam Steed. Why were Ruby's siblings possibly so afraid to speak out again because they were afraid and terrorized that they would be stigmatizing the entire family and the kids as possible sexual deviants.

John Dehlin [01:31:59] That's what I believe the evidence is likely going to show. And then finally, why did Ruby accuse some of her children of abuse? It's because she herself had been terrorized to see sexual addiction everywhere, including in her small children. I would like to end by saying where I believe the Mormon Church is responsible. I believe that the Mormon Church ultimately is responsible for its biblical and Book of Mormon based teachings around sexual shame. If you didn't have the Bible and the Book of Mormon teaching that sexual sin is next to murder in severity, you would not have many of these problems. Secondly, modern Mormon prophets, Heber J.

John Dehlin [01:32:44] Grant, Spencer W. Kimball, David O. McKay, Gordon B. Hinckley, most of them have amplified and radicalized these teachings found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon and then the Mormon Church by labeling pornography and masturbation use as an addiction. They have popularized and endorsed a completely non scientific and unethical manufactured, wholly manufactured treatment of a fake and false and harmful addiction. And they did that when, you know, before. And they did that by supporting LifeStar. They did that by supporting Sons of Helaman. They did that by supporting Fight the New Drug. And they did that by supporting Jody Hildebrandt and, and Connections and all the addiction recovery programs that they have created and supported either indirectly or directly.

John Dehlin [01:33:40] Finally, you know the Mormon Church is responsible for the creation of Jody Hildebrandt and her multimillion dollar business around sex addiction and recovery. Both because they referred Jody to endless families and because they funded Jody for, for so many years even after Jody had lost her license.

John Dehlin [01:34:02] And then finally the Mormon Church is responsible after supporting Jody for destroying countless marriages and families and terrorizing generations of couples and children in the process. That is what I hope to share with you today. I hope you found it useful.

John Dehlin [01:34:23] These are sensitive issues. I'm going to state that, that so much of what we talked about today is speculation. I'm going to end as I started. We don't have all the information about Jody and Ruby and Kevin and the children. So I'm speculating. But I would, I would call this informed speculation based on 20 years, based on six years as a, as a psychology PhD in training and having completed my psychology PhD in clinical and counseling psychology as having worked with Mormon Mormons for 20 years. Ed is having spoken to dozens now of victims of Jody Hildebrandt. I would call this informed speculation. But let's wait for the evidence because almost all of this are allegations until they're demonstrated.

John Dehlin [01:35:12] Let's have compassion for the people involved. It's hard to have compassion for Jody Hildebrandt and maybe for Ruby and maybe even for for Kevin to some extent. Having said that, what we try and emphasize on Mormon stories is systems.

John Dehlin [01:35:29] Sometimes people say systems, not people. Margi has convinced me that it's systems and people. Jody was certainly a bad actor. But if we ignore the Mormon Church's complicity in this context, we're missing the soil that created the eight passengers, Ruby and Kevin, Frankie disaster, and all the other disasters that have emerged within modern Mormon culture over the past 20 or 30 years. And this doesn't even touch on the LGBTQ suicide epidemic that the Mormon Church has from pathologizing same sex attraction and or n LGBTQ identity. So I hope this has been helpful. I want to thank everyone again. Oh, I also want to add that these issues are not isolated to the Mormon experience.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] I'm seeing that, you know, in the comments. Orthodox Judaism, Hasidic Judaism, Ultra Conservative Judaism, Conservative Catholicism, Evangelical Christianity, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists. This sexual shaming is even certain branches of conservative Islamic. This sexual shaming is not constricted to Mormonism by any stretch. And so again, if we miss the religious angle, if we miss the Mormon angle, but if we miss the religious angle, we're going to be seeing families like this and instances like this, abuse and the destruction of families just continue in perpetuity. So please call this out when you can.

John Dehlin [01:37:06] Thank you for your support. Please donate to Mormon Stories at Gmail. Please go to MormonStories.org to become a monthly donor if you value this type of content. We are a nonprofit. We're transparent in our finances and we rely on your financial support to make all this possible. We lose donors every month and so we need your donations to keep us alive.

John Dehlin [01:37:28] In addition, you can support this channel by subscribing on YouTube, subscribing on Facebook Liking this episode right now, sharing it with as many people as possible, commenting on it. That helps the algorithms. Share this with as many people as possible. We will be covering the eight Passengers Frankie family story in the weeks and months to come, as well as the Tim Ballard story and the Operation Underground Railroad story as well as many other stories. So please check back with Mormon Stories in the days, weeks and months ahead. Thank you for Julia and Maven and Gerardo for your support and Brooklyn on Mormon Stories podcast. Thank the board, thank Margi and all the other excellent podcasters that help us.

John Dehlin [01:38:15] We we will be returning soon to our regularly scheduled program. Thanks for all you do. Stay in touch. Be good to each other. Finally, if you have been a victim of Jody Hildebrandt, please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com we want to hear your story. We will be covering this story more so please email your Jody Hildebrandt connection story or Sons of Helaman story or lifestar story or you know, fight the new drug story. Email it to us@mormonstories gmail.com and we'll do our best to help continue shining light on this story until the Mormon Church changes its doctrine and theology and teachings that perpetuate toxic and sometimes lethal sexual shame.

John Dehlin [01:38:59] Thanks everybody. Be good to each other, be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Check out the Jesse Hildebrand episode and the Adam Steed episode there. Can't miss episodes. Bye everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.