Welcome and Episode Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:03] Hello everyone, and welcome to the Mormon News Podcast, part duh, part two. For today, it's November 6, 2026. I'm here with Meggan Hayes from Generally Unquotable. Hey, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:00:16] Hey. Good afternoon.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Haven't you had enough of me? Us?

Meggan Hayes [00:00:20] No,

John Dehlin [00:00:21] sorry,

Meggan Hayes [00:00:21] John, it hasn't happened.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] For those of you who don't know, we just spent almost three hours covering the 2026 midterm elections as they relate to Utah and Mormons and Utah politicians and the LDS Church and the country and Arizona and Nevada and Idaho and all sorts of fun things. Yes, we talked politics again on Mormon Stories podcast. No, we're not partisan. Yes, we love Republicans, Democrats and unaffiliated. But I'm proud of that conversation. Or at least I had fun with it. How about you, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:00:59] Yep, I agree. It was great. I think we need to do it more. We need to show people that political discourse can happen and that it can be good for us all to get a little uncomfortable and be curious and put things out in the open.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] Yeah. Yep. Politics, religion and because religion talks too much about sex. Politics, religion and sex. That's what we do on Mormon Stories Podcast in the Mormon News Podcast. All right, well, I sprang this on Meggan this morning at about 4am My time and I don't know what time it was her time to say, let's do two episodes. She pulled together that first episode that we just did and now it's the rest of the story. It's the actual non political Mormon news for the week preceding November 6, 2026. So really quick, I'll just start by saying please like and subscribe this episode. You can find this podcast@mormonnews.com that's our website.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] It's also now its own podcast on Spotify and on itunes and elsewhere. I don't even know if I told you that, Meggan. But also the way that you pay to support this weekly show and the podcast is to become a monthly donor@mormonnews.com and I mentioned last episode that 75 of you, out of the tens of thousands of you that listen, minus the ones who already donate to Mormon stories or generally unquotable, and minus the ones that can't afford it, there's thousands, if not tens of thousands of you that could afford $10 a month to support Meggan so that she doesn't make less than $5 an hour in her weekly news efforts, please become a monthly donor.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] Don't be a slacker. All the guilt and shame. For those of you who can afford it, who don't support us become a monthly donor. Let's go from 75 monthly donors to the Mormon News Podcast to 100. Is 25 more too much to ask? Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:03:03] No, we can do it, John. Our listeners can do it.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] And we're grateful for the super chats that people give on YouTube. We'll definitely share your comments or questions if they come forward on the live stream as super Chat. So without any further ado, Meggan, how do you want to begin? Let's not have a 15 minute disclaimer today on this episode.

Mormon Bishops Said to Stand in for Jesus

Meggan Hayes [00:03:25] Nope. Let's dive right in. So. Well, we can go to what the stories we're going to be talking about. The top story is Mormon Bishops Stand in for Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] Okay, dying to hear that. I've not seen this clip yet, by the way.

Meggan Hayes [00:03:38] Oh, yeah, it's going to. We're going to have a lot to talk about. Then

John Dehlin [00:03:42] we'll talk about flip tables.

Meggan Hayes [00:03:44] You might get a little ranty. We're going to talk about Quentin Cook and his speech on anonymity. Then we're going to learn about Jared Harding Wilson, what he has to do with the LDS Church and a lawsuit. Then we'll go to Cody, Wyoming for some really bright lights that people are not happy about. Then we will discuss Nathan Apfel, what he has to do with the LDS Church and his appearance on Soft White Underbelly. And then just a couple of fun stories from sports.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] All right. Yeah. And I guess I should mention that the Holy War is tomorrow. Is that what you're going to talk about?

Meggan Hayes [00:04:26] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:04:28] Yeah. BYU and Utah are both ranked top 10 in the nation and they're playing football tomorrow. Meggan, I'm going. My neighbor invited me. My neighbor. I won't reveal him because he doesn't give me permission. He said, john, I could sell my extra ticket for 500 bucks or I could bring you, my neighbor to the BYU University of Utah game. And he decided to bring me. So the question is, do I wear blue, red or neutral? Is the question.

Meggan Hayes [00:04:57] Do you just wear purple?

John Dehlin [00:04:58] I think I'm gonna wear black. I don't. Purple. Yeah, purple. That's a good. I think I'm gonna wear black. Anyway. We'll talk about that later. Let's dive in. Meggan, what's our first story?

Meggan Hayes [00:05:08] Bishop Stand in for Jesus. So this is Becky Squire. She is a very well known pro LDS influencer and she said the bishop's job is literally to stand in as Jesus Christ. And I wanted to make note that this video was shared with me by Mike Fuller. For those of you who don't know. He went on Soft White underbelly as well. He was a seminary teacher for 20 years, I believe, and then left the church. And now he is a sex therapist. So he is the one who saw this video, sent it my way, and he said, we should discuss this. And I said, I think I'm going to discuss it with John. Can I give you credit for sending it on? And he said, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] I love it. Shout out to Mike. And I love when we can thank our sources because we get so much of our news from sources, don't we?

Meggan Hayes [00:05:59] Yeah. And a lot of times they don't want to be mentioned, which is totally fine as well. And I maintain those confidences. But I asked Mike and he was like, yes, people need to be talking about this video. You know, he's a sex therapist in his line of work. He said the people who end up in his office are the people who were influenced by videos like this or teachings like this as children and teens.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Hey, we're getting some feedback in and I'm going to share it because I like feedback. So, Kristen, I gotta put my glasses on. Kirsten Cantrell, 1280, writes, I don't love when John doesn't know the story and is reacting in the moment. The Mormon newscast, and I think she means Mormon News Podcast, comes across more seriously than because they are all at least somewhat informed on each story they cover. I agree. I think this is good feedback. I agree. I. I think it would be better if I came across informed. I've been lazy. I stay really busy and I'll see what I can do about that. But I appreciate the feedback. I don't. I don't think I have anything else to say.

Meggan Hayes [00:07:11] Yeah. Thank you, Kirsten.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] All right, well, let's play the clip.

Meggan Hayes [00:07:15] Yes.

Guest [00:07:16] As a bishop's wife, I recently got asked, how do you explain the bishop's role to a child who feels uncomfortable being asked about sexual sin?

John Dehlin [00:07:25] Okay, that's a short clip,

Meggan Hayes [00:07:27] right? The clip in it, the whole thing in and of itself is not very long, but like the fact that grownups are discussing other grownups talking to children and teens about sexual sin is a problem. Before we even get into how that happens, you know, if this is a parent talking to a child, that's appropriate, Right? Parents should talk to their children about sex, not sexual sin. I think that's a whole different thing. But parents should talk to their children, age appropriately, from the time they're very young, about correct names for body parts and then progressively speaking about more as the children get older. There's a great set of books called 30 Days of Sex Talks.

Meggan Hayes [00:08:11] They are age specific and it teaches parents how to talk to their kids about sex when they're starting, when they're really young. And it's literally 30 days. Like you can do one at bedtime every day for 30 days. And they're age specific.

Meggan Hayes [00:08:24] Right. So parents should be doing that. Physicians can talk to kids about sex, sex sex ed in, you know, educational settings. But grown men who are untrained going behind closed doors to talk to children and teens about sexual sin is inappropriate.

John Dehlin [00:08:48] Why?

Meggan Hayes [00:08:51] Because it's none of their business. I mean, there are a lot of reasons, but like my neighbor, who I really am good friends with, has no business going behind a closed door and Talking to my 14 year old daughter about her sex life. How strange is that? If he attempted to do that, I would report him to the police.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] Yeah, it's kind of grooming behavior, right? Like,

Meggan Hayes [00:09:15] yeah,

John Dehlin [00:09:16] if you start talking to a kid about sex, it's creepy, it's inappropriate, and it's kind of grooming behavior. It means like if somebody's Talking to my 13 year old about sex, like body parts and positions, and I'm thinking they're trying to abuse them, right?

Meggan Hayes [00:09:36] Yes, absolutely. Right. Like take all of this mythical church stuff out of it for one second and just think about some adult on your street of any gender cornering your teenager or child and asking them questions about their sex life. That would be ridiculously inappropriate.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] Yeah. And I, and I remember that coming out of the Sam Young, for those of you who don't know, Sam Young was a Mormon bishop who led several marches to protest how the church did one on one meetings with children and how it dealt with child abuse inappropriately. And ultimately he was excommunicated, literally for asking the church to stop having bishops take 12 year old girls behind closed doors alone to talk to them about sex. He was excommunicated for that. But I remember when I first heard that idea that it's grooming behavior.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] I kind of thought, is that excessive? Like, come on, bishops have, they're usually good people, they usually have good intentions. They're just trying to teach moral standards. Sometimes they're parents that might not have good moral standards. And when a parent might be misbehaving, a bishop might be able to teach a kid a better way. So I remember trying to process that idea about whether or not it's overreach to call it grooming behavior for a bishop to be talking with a 12 or 13 or 14 year old kid about abstaining from sex. Right.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] But then I learned about all the experiences teens and young kids had with bishops where they were abused, they were physically sexually abused, or they, they got so comfortable talking with non parents about sex that that opened them up to being groomed by elders, quorum presidents, or young men's leaders or young women's leaders later. And then I realized it really was just only parents should be talking about their kids, about sex with their kids.

Meggan Hayes [00:11:51] Anyway,

John Dehlin [00:11:51] that's how I processed it. How do you process it?

Meggan Hayes [00:11:54] Yeah, because when I was still a member, I would allow my children to go, but you know, I would have discussions with them beforehand as I was becoming more nuanced about what's appropriate, what's not appropriate. And then eventually I gave them the opportunity when they were asked, you know, because the executive secretary would come up to them and say, hey, it's time for your interview. And they would look at me and I would, I would just ask them, do you want to or not? And if they said no, I'd be like, yeah, they don't want to. Right. But it took me years to get to that point where I was just even giving them a choice whether or not they wanted to go. But yeah, now I see it as like there is not a situation that, that needs to be happening.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] I know it's early, but we're getting great comments in. So first of all, thanks to Jeff Wright, he's been super supportive. And also thanks to Michaela Bianchi for supporting us through YouTube. Mike Fuller is in the house. Hey Mike. He makes the point that bishops have no safety mechanisms like therapists, they're not trained. Mormon bishops are not trained, they're not licensed, they're not credentialed and they're not qualified.

Meggan Hayes [00:13:06] And

John Dehlin [00:13:06] they don't. Like, like Mike says, there's no, there's no like who's gonna turn in a bishop, like you turn in a bishop to a stake president, the stake president might excommunicate you and call you a liar. Like there, there's not, there aren't safety mechanisms. That's really well said. I'll just read a couple more comments. FC Baker writes, once you remove the mystical component of religion, it's all creepy. And that's so true. There's so much garbage that we allow in society that we would never allow. Like women being second class citizens, we would never allow that anywhere else except in a religion. And that's true about 40 year old plumbers or dentists talking to 12 year old girls behind a closed door about sex. That's so true. I love these comments, Bob. Icus Rex writes Catholic confessional is more appropriate than the LDS Church confessions. Do you have a guess for why he thinks that, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:14:05] Because it's a little more public. Like don't they have to go in a little? I mean I've only seen it on the movies, so I could be wrong. But it's not behind a closed door with a sound machine, Right. Isn't it in one of those little wooden boxes? Or is it? Sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] But at least there's a wall between them, right?

Meggan Hayes [00:14:22] Oh yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] At least there's a physical separator.

Meggan Hayes [00:14:26] Can people hear what's coming out of those? I guess I never really thought about it. I've only ever seen it in movies.

John Dehlin [00:14:31] I'm sure they've made them confidential, but I don't know for sure. Mike Fuller also asks where Sam Young is. He's in Houston.

Meggan Hayes [00:14:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] And he's living his best retired life and we need to have him back on Mormon stories sometime soon.

Meggan Hayes [00:14:48] Yeah. Wasn't he was on with Radio Free Mormon in the past year

John Dehlin [00:14:51] and he came to thrive St. George.

Meggan Hayes [00:14:53] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] When you were there.

Meggan Hayes [00:14:54] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] He's still around. We got to have him back. Mike Fuller also writes church is the only place people let untrained people talk to their kids about sex. That's true.

Meggan Hayes [00:15:05] And

John Dehlin [00:15:05] then this is an unkind statement, but you know, I want to give voice to different perspectives. Stephanie Wing, 2658, writes, Becky Squire is seriously the most smug, arrogant and ignorant LDS influencer. Now that's a high bar or a low bar. And it's also not super kind. Do you have any thoughts or reactions to that, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:15:29] I don't think it. I might think things about LDS influencers sometimes that are super unkind. However, when I get over myself a little bit and try to see them for where they're at, then I just try to break down their argument instead of them. Because honestly, like I was very similar to Becky Squire probably 10 years ago, which is like cringy now to think about or maybe a little bit embarrassing. But I don't want to hate the past version of me. So it's really hard for me to hate her. There is. And there's also a difference between her where she's really, I think she's just a true, true blue believer. Right. As opposed to some LDS influencers who are just mean. I think she comes across probably as cringy just because she's so in it.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] Yeah. All right, well, let's. Should we go to the next clip?

Meggan Hayes [00:16:25] Okay, so really quickly, go to the. Go to slide five.

John Dehlin [00:16:31] Oh, slide five. Or okay, okay, okay, got it. All right,

Bishop Interviews, Sam Young, and Listener Reactions

Meggan Hayes [00:16:37] so when you brought up Sam Young, I. This is a graphic that I made yesterday because somebody said something in a chat that I was in where they're like, well, how did Sam Young overlap with Wade Christofferson while he was getting excommunicated? Wade was serving in a bishopric. Anyway, so I just thought I'd throw that up there real quick because there was overlap. Like, Sam was saying, protect children, and he got excommunicated. And Wade Christofferson at the same time was harming children, was abusing children, and. Yeah, bishop clerk

John Dehlin [00:17:07] promoted into bishopric. Sword clerk. Yeah. That's a dark comparison.

Meggan Hayes [00:17:15] Right. Somebody said in the chat. And I was like, I wonder what that overlap looks like.

John Dehlin [00:17:20] Yeah. I mean, so many pedophiles in the Mormon Church have never been excommunicated, never been punished, have been quietly just forgiven and allowed right back in the ranks. And I can name several activists who were advocating against child abuse and against abusers, and four children, and they were excommunicated. It's one of the weirdest. Like, up is down. That's like the Upside Down. And. And what. What was that kids Netflix show with the Upside down? Like,

Meggan Hayes [00:17:54] oh, Stranger Things.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] Like Stranger Things. Like, it's the Mormon Upside Down. When activists advocating for children are excommunicated and pedophiles are protected and promoted. But that's the Mormon world we live in. It's weird.

Meggan Hayes [00:18:10] It is weird. It is weird. And this conversation about what Becky's saying, I don't think she realizes it, but it's feeding right into this. It. Okay, well, hopefully John will come right back. Thank you, Outer Snarkus, for letting me know I'm not frozen.

Meggan Hayes [00:19:19] I was like, what happened? Oh, John's Internet died. Well, the show will go on. I think we'll. Trevenon said, I'm the only one here. Welcome, everyone, to Generally Unquotable on Mormon Stories News. Let's hope John comes back quickly.

Meggan Hayes [00:19:48] I will read out some chats. I don't know how to put them on the screen because I've never done that part. So let's see. It looks like Stephanie came on and said, sorry. I knew that was mean. Okay, let's go with cringy.

Meggan Hayes [00:20:04] I think we all get a little mean sometimes. Yeah, there we go. So, I mean, it's okay if we can acknowledge it and then be like, okay, I'm Going to step back because, like I said, like, I get heated about Mormonism and I'll say things and I'm like, okay, that person, although Mormon and really pushing my buttons right now, they're still a human and they're probably a lot like I was 10 years ago. So thank you, Stephanie, for coming back.

Meggan Hayes [00:20:31] Let's see. Wow. This person said I escaped Mormonism, but I realized secular humanism is even worse. It took a while to sort things out, but. But I do believe in the historical Jesus, that he rose from the dead. That's super interesting.

Meggan Hayes [00:20:48] Can't you share the link so we. Oh, Trevenon's asking if I can share the link so somebody can join. I don't. Who. Who would I need to have on here? I guess Julia could put up the next slide.

Meggan Hayes [00:21:06] It is slide number seven, the next clip from Becky. And then instead of discussing it with John, I can just talk about it for a minute and maybe read some comments because I know Mike Fuller is in the live chat and he will definitely have some things to say.

Meggan Hayes [00:21:32] Someone's asking how secular humanism is worse. Oh, I'm getting a friend. Maybe, Maybe. Oh, here we go. Julia's helping out behind the scenes. Thank you, Julia. We were just discussing before we started that I haven't ever run the slides. Maybe that's something I should do so in the future I can be prepared for something like this.

Meggan Hayes [00:22:07] Let's see if that'll come up. I'm glad it's not me having the technical difficulties because I get really stressed when that happens. It looks like that video is not loading. So let's see. Outer snarkness says, I am so sick of bishops acting like they have all the knowledge and power and then cause so much harm.

Meggan Hayes [00:22:38] Ryan Scott, pnw. Hi, gang. I'm back for a bit. Did Meggan finally stage a coup and force John out? Okay, here we go. Let's see if this video will play. This is the next part of the video.

Guest [00:22:48] Number two. The only thing that the bishop should be asking up front is if they are obeying the law of chastity. Now, a lot of children, especially the younger ones, don't know exactly what the law of chastity is. So one thing that my husband does as bishop is he emails the parents of the youth beforehand and asks them to explain the law of chastity so that he doesn't have to.

Meggan Hayes [00:23:06] Okay, Julia, that was actually the next next one. I think we actually need to go to number six. Sorry, we'll have to watch that one. Twice. But it will give everybody some time to digest that.

Guest [00:23:18] So, first of all, I think it's really important that we explain to our children that they never, ever have to meet with the bishop alone. They can always invite a parent or even a leader.

Meggan Hayes [00:23:27] Okay, so this one bothered me. And please chime in in the chat because she says we need to tell our kids that they never have to go in alone. But what she does not say is that we need to give our kids a choice whether they want to go in at all.

Meggan Hayes [00:23:44] Like, it's not even occurring to her. It's not even in her realm of possibilities that a child can say, I don't want to have an interview with the bishop. And that's problematic to me. Like, she's giving them a choice whether they go in alone or go in with a parent instead of a full choice, which would be, do you even want to have an interview with the bishop?

Meggan Hayes [00:24:10] Which I don't think that children should be doing it in the first place. But if you're going to be in the LDS Church, and if you're going to say that children need to have bishop interviews, you need to give them an avenue to say no.

Meggan Hayes [00:24:24] They need to feel like they can say no, because then as they get older, that gives them the ability to say no to other things that they don't feel are right or maybe. And as an adult, then they'll feel like they could probably say no to a calling. But it starts when they're Super Young.

Meggan Hayes [00:24:42] Truth666 says, like, a child can say no. Are they really given that choice? And that's what I'm talking about, like in Mormonism. See, I know when I got into adulthood, it was. John was raptured. Yeah, maybe. I mean, I guess we'll find out.

Meggan Hayes [00:25:01] He'll come back as a spirit being and then we'll have to do the handshake thing. Anyway, when, when I got into adulthood, I did not know how to make some of the most simple choices. Like, I would go out to eat very rarely because we were so poor with my husband, right? We'd just go to Wendy's or something and. And I didn't know what I wanted to order. I'd be like, oh, just get me something. He's like, well, no, what do you want? And I'm like, I. It doesn't matter. Just, just get me whatever.

Meggan Hayes [00:25:27] And it took literal years for me to go into a restaurant or even a fast food establishment and look at a menu and think, what do I want? Because that wasn't something that I practiced when I was a child about having a choice. So when my kids were little, I gave them choices, even if they were super simple. It's like, do you want to wear the blue shoes or the black shoes today instead of me just picking up a pair and shoving it on their feet? Right. Like, do you want to sit at the left chair at the table or the one on the other side?

Meggan Hayes [00:26:05] Like, let them start making choices. And in the LDS Church, it's just not. It's just not happening. So Julia said, even sex as a grown woman, I was told my Mormon leaders not to withhold sex from my husband. Can I even say no? Right. Like, the consequences of not allowing children a choice are huge when those children grow up into adulthood and don't know how to say no to things that they don't want as an adult.

Meggan Hayes [00:26:37] And I mean, they can be huge as a child too, because then if a child is not allowed to say no to a bishop, when that same bishop is a predator, the child is still not going to say no.

Meggan Hayes [00:26:54] Yeah. Kiki from Outer Snarkness is saying, my bishop explained what self pleasure was. I was shocked. And that's another thing that happens because these interviews are inappropriate because they're untrained lay leaders. Yeah. It's so, so problematic. I'm looking back at. Okay. Yeah. Julia, let's go to the next clip. We already listened to this one, but let's listen to it again.

Guest [00:27:20] Number two, the only thing that the bishop should be asking up front is if they are obeying the law of chastity. Now, a lot of children, especially the younger ones, don't know exactly what the law of chastity is. So one thing that my husband does as bishop is he emails the parents of the youth beforehand and asks them to explain the law of chastity so that he doesn't have to.

Meggan Hayes [00:27:41] So did anyone else notice at the beginning that she said the only thing he should be asking up front is whether or not they're obeying the law of chastity? Which means she is giving space and also likely her husband, who is a bishop, for the questions to get more in depth after that, depending on what their answer is. Which is wholly inappropriate. Right.

Meggan Hayes [00:28:03] I know in Mormonism, the bishop can't. I mean, the idea is that the bishop can't help them process through this sin, which I'm going to put in air quotes, because it's age, usually age appropriate behavior. Right. Like if someone went in and said they were abusing someone. Sure. That's a sin, but let's call the cops.

Meggan Hayes [00:28:22] Right, but she's leaving this space for children and teens to go in and the bishop is going to ask them, are you keeping the law of chastity and this child? If they say no, she's leaving space for them to then ask more probing, probing questions. Which is where a ton of abuse.

Meggan Hayes [00:28:44] Yeah. So Mike Fuller is saying, what follow up questions would Becky say are appropriate? Exactly. And the, and the handbook, because these people aren't trained and the handbook isn't helpful, it doesn't outline what those are. So a bishop is left to his own devices, his own experiences, whatever he thinks is appropriate. And this, this bishop could be a predator.

Meggan Hayes [00:29:09] So Mormon interviews, even if the handbook says the first question is do they keep the law of chastity? After that, these bishops can, can run rampant. And if the child number one doesn't know how to say no, there's a huge possibility they don't have. They, they're going to feel that something's wrong if the bishop is crossing all of these lines, but they're not going to know how to tell their parents about it.

Meggan Hayes [00:29:39] They're definitely not going to know how to tell their parents about it. And so it's just problems compounding on problems. The child, it doesn't feel like they could say no. So they end up in this bishop's interview. They know it's probably out of the norm to invite a parent in unless the parent has been talking to that for, you know, talking to them about that for some time. So they're not going to invite their parent in.

Meggan Hayes [00:30:03] And then if the bishop's asking him something that's making them uncomfortable, they might just equate that to them being the problem. Like, I feel uncomfortable, but the bishop's called from God, so I probably just have a sin that I need to tell him about. And whatever questions he asks, I better answer them because the problem is certainly with me, not my bishop who's called of God.

Meggan Hayes [00:30:30] Camille HK4hu said, Did you notice the change from children to youth? As if a couple years older makes it more appropriate. Oh, right. Because it used to be that children who were going to be baptized would go in for a baptismal interview, which I believe the questions were different. I mean, the last time I heard them was when I was going to go be baptized. So y' all can correct me in the comments if I'm wrong. But like those questions were different than the temple recommend questions. And now they've homogenized them all and instead of just having a baptism at 8 years old to get baptized and then not having it again until 12 or you know, 11, right before they go into young men or young women's, there's like six month interviews, I think.

Meggan Hayes [00:31:18] So the age of the children in the bishop's office have gotten quite a bit younger and, and Becky's acting like there's a huge difference between a 10 year old and a 14 year old. When, I mean, there could be. But in Mormonism, mentally they're so sheltered. Like a 14 year old could be similarly on par with a 10 year old.

Meggan Hayes [00:31:47] Oh yeah. And people who are in mixed faith marriages. Julia was pointing out my 10 year old's going to be asked those questions next year. Right. That's hard. It's hard. Like how much can you prepare someone for that?

Meggan Hayes [00:32:00] I talked to my kids about it and they're just glad that they. It's not even something that's on their radar, so that would be super hard. Yeah. Julia, we can go to the next clip. It's not going to get better.

Guest [00:32:11] And number three, if your child does need to repent of sexual sins, the bishop's job is literally to stand in as Jesus Christ. He is set apart as a judge in Israel. So it's not just some old random man talking to your child about these things. He has the power and authority to serve as Jesus would.

Meggan Hayes [00:32:30] Oh, I need like 10 people to come in here and talk about this because this is so. This has so many levels of problems in it. First of all, sexual sin and children, if, if a child is masturbating, that child. Children masturbate in the womb. Okay. That is a totally natural, healthy thing for children to explore themselves.

Meggan Hayes [00:32:58] Okay. So that's not a, that should not be a sin. I know in Mormonism it is. Should not be. Yeah. Mike's chiming up in the comments. And then if there are teenagers who are exploring their sexuality, also totally normal, age appropriate, healthy sexual behavior.

Meggan Hayes [00:33:23] The problem that happens in Mormonism, because all the, all of this is just labeled as a sin. Right. She's saying if they do need to repent of sexual sin, all this is labeled as a sin. So. It doesn't allow people to start to learn about their own bodies, about their own preferences about saying yes and saying no to different things in kind of a line upon line way. Right. Like the Mormon Church says, the first person that a person should explore sexually is themselves, I believe.

Meggan Hayes [00:34:02] And that does not happen in Mormonism. Right. In a healthy way. Because it's all so secretive. And sinful and dark. So that's the first thing that I wanted to address is that sexual sin, using those two terms together is just a problem right out the gate.

Meggan Hayes [00:34:24] There are so many comments, Julia. If you just throw some up that are kind of the more interesting ones then I can not. Not that some people's aren't interesting, but so Scatcat Q5Y says, I think the bishop interviews are so controlling. Kids need to be taught the possible real world consequen for a sexual choice. Treating sex like recreation is disgusting and dangerous.

Meggan Hayes [00:34:53] That is an interesting take. I think that it takes a lot of education and a lot of understanding of consent and it takes someone understanding themselves for them to be able to engage insects in a way that is healthy and also can be recreational. And I absolutely don't think that that is something that everyone wants or has the capacity to, to do just depending on their different social situations, how they were raised, their different body chemistries.

Meggan Hayes [00:35:38] So I know what they're saying, like recreational sex where it's not committed sex. I think if I'm misunderstanding that, then you can, you can tell me. But just because monogamous committed sex is the perfect thing for one person does not mean that it is the healthy thing for somebody else.

Meggan Hayes [00:36:08] And it's, it's okay if one person doesn't like recreational sex and someone else does, as long as there is a deep understanding of yourself and a deep understanding of consent so that everyone in the situation, in the parties can be respected.

Meggan Hayes [00:36:28] Okay, so what was the. And saying that the random old man represents Jesus is the worst part of this. Oh yeah, Mike Fuller saying that that's, that's coming up. So the second part of her thing, so she said if they have to repent of a sexual sin, which we covered that. And then the second thing she said is the bishop stands in for Jesus.

Meggan Hayes [00:36:50] And that comes with its own problematic baggage because like we've already talked about, if the bishop is a predator, how is he also standing in for Jesus? And if a child, a 8 year old, a 12 year old, a 17 year old, if they are super indoctrinated and they literally believe that their bishop is speaking on behalf of Jesus and he is exhibiting predatory behavior, how do they say no to that without thinking I'm saying no to Jesus?

Meggan Hayes [00:37:35] That's. Those stakes are way too big for a well adjusted adult, let alone a child. So putting a bishop who could have maybe a little bit of training, if he just happens to be a counselor or no training at all, or like it's just, you know, that's why the term Bishop roulette exists, because no person, Bishop relief society president, etc. Should be put on the same level as the actual mythical Jesus.

Meggan Hayes [00:38:19] That's too much power for one person. And I mean, go to floodlit.org and you will see how that power very often gets misused. So Mike Fuller in the comments is also reminding me that this reel by Becky Squire was a test reel and I had to look up exactly what that meant. So on she posted this on Instagram and, and when posting on Instagram, as a content creator, like someone with an audience big like hers, you can go in and say, I want this reel to go to not the people who follow me, but everyone else. And for whatever reason, she posted this specific reel as a test reel.

Becky Squire's Viral Clip and Closing Discussion

Meggan Hayes [00:39:03] So she didn't want it to go to her tried and true believing Mormon followers. She wanted it to go to the other audiences out there. Which is interesting that she would think this content would be something that people outside Mormonism would be keen on hearing or, or I mean it's definitely controversial if that's what she was going for. But it's odd to me that she didn't push it out to an audience that would immediately agree with her. And so in the comments she got a lot of pushback from the people who saw it.

Meggan Hayes [00:39:46] So yeah, Julie, if you'll put up the next clip, let's sadly keep going. Oh, there was one more before this one, I think. Yeah.

Guest [00:39:58] And number three, if your child does need to repent of sexual sin, the bishop's job is literally to stand in as Jesus Christ. He is set apart as a judge in Israel. So it's not just some old, old random man talking to your child about these things. He has the power and authority to service Jesus would.

Meggan Hayes [00:40:15] Okay, so that was the same one. I just hadn't talked about that second half. So Mike Fuller, our friend who sent me this reel, this was his sum up. A child in a closed office answering questions about their sexual behavior from a lay volunteer with a day job with their worthiness, community status and temple access on the line is exploitation. Calling your husband a spokesman for Jesus is a thought stopping phrase. And disclosure squeezed out under that pressure is abusive, not honesty. And I. Amazing quote by Mike Fuller. Yeah, at the end of that she did say it's not just some random man. And it literally bishops are just some random guy. Like who of us, if we broke our arm, would go into our. Oh, do we have a friend? John, you're back. Have you gone dark over there?

John Dehlin [00:41:18] Did you add me?

Meggan Hayes [00:41:20] I. I think you're in. Does everyone see John, or is it just me?

John Dehlin [00:41:30] You have to add me. Hello

Meggan Hayes [00:41:34] there.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] Can you hear me?

Meggan Hayes [00:41:38] I can hear you.

John Dehlin [00:41:41] What did you. My. My Internet in my office went out.

Meggan Hayes [00:41:45] Oh, man. Right in the middle of

John Dehlin [00:41:47] talking

Meggan Hayes [00:41:48] about bishops.

John Dehlin [00:41:49] It hasn't done that in, like, seven years, so it's kind of weird. Anyway, what did you end up doing? Did you end up just continuing?

Meggan Hayes [00:41:57] Yeah, yeah, I was reading comments, and we watched the rest of the Becky Squires videos.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] Is Julia still there?

Meggan Hayes [00:42:06] Yeah, she's been putting up the slides for me.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] Okay. Well, she'll have to mark this as an edit, so I don't have my quality stuff. I could do it from my phone, but we could either just rebroadcast this another day, like this weekend, or you could just continue without me, and Julia can cut out the disruptions. I'm cool either way.

Meggan Hayes [00:42:27] I think it's better when we have both of us so we can discuss. Because it's hard. Kind of hard for me to discuss with myself.

John Dehlin [00:42:33] Okay. Cool, cool, cool. That's why. That's why I joined. So let me make one last attempt to see if the Internet's back on, but last I checked, it was completely off. So I rebooted my computer and the whole system, and it still didn't come back on. And then I got a notification from Xfinity Comcast that it was down and wouldn't be up for a couple hours. But let me just see really quick. Peter

Meggan Hayes [00:43:07] Higgs says the SCMC are parked across the road. John,

John Dehlin [00:43:12] it's the gremlins. Right?

Meggan Hayes [00:43:17] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] I'm just. I'm quickly just checking to see if. If by some weird fluke,

Meggan Hayes [00:43:30] it has come back.

John Dehlin [00:43:31] It's come back. Yeah, I apologize.

Meggan Hayes [00:43:33] No, I mean that. It just happens.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] This hasn't happened in seven years. It's kind of weird,

Meggan Hayes [00:43:41] right? I know. It's like, oh, John's frozen. And then I was like, well, maybe it's me. And then. Then it was just me. And then everyone just had to listen to me do nothing for a second.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:43:56] No. Then I just started talking. I mean, I can talk about it a lot, but I like the back and forth, you know, because that's why the discussion is so good. And I did start reading comments because I. I know what my ideas are, and I've loved to share them. However, when I come on here, it's more about the plurality of ideas.

John Dehlin [00:44:15] Yeah, of course. Well, let me just see. It's wanting to work. I just rebooted my computer.

Meggan Hayes [00:44:26] Yeah, sometimes just turn it off and turn it back on. Looks like Nathan Hinckley might be in the chat.

John Dehlin [00:44:33] This is just a travesty of the worst. An Internet. An Internet travesty of the worst.

Meggan Hayes [00:44:41] Right. I know. Tomorrow we're both going to football because I'm going to the Houston game.

John Dehlin [00:44:46] Which one?

Meggan Hayes [00:44:49] I don't know who they're playing. Donnie just texted me earlier today and was like, hey, I got tickets. Like, somebody has season tickets.

John Dehlin [00:44:54] The. The Texans?

Meggan Hayes [00:44:56] Not. Not pro college.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] Oh, University of Houston.

Meggan Hayes [00:45:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:01] Oh, fun.

Meggan Hayes [00:45:04] I love some. Good.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] No, it's not working. I say if you want, we just find a time this weekend to republish.

Meggan Hayes [00:45:13] Yep. No, we can just start over. The slides are all there.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] Okay. Well, everyone's still watching us, so. Sorry, everyone.

Meggan Hayes [00:45:20] Hey, everybody. You've seen us as humans. Now what do we do when our polished exterior just falls down?

John Dehlin [00:45:30] People are having a faith crisis of Mormonism. It's Julia.

Guest [00:45:34] I thought you did great, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:45:36] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:45:38] Love the hat. Julia, have I ever seen you with a hat before?

Guest [00:45:41] Probably not. I haven't done my hair, so. And it's crazy, so. But I was like, I can't let Meggan do this by herself. So I was, like, gonna just jump on. But. But. So, yeah,

John Dehlin [00:45:49] I hope you're. I hope your family's okay. I know you had obligations.

Guest [00:45:53] Yeah, it's fine. So you guys are thinking and pushing it, like, this weekend?

John Dehlin [00:45:58] I think so,

Meggan Hayes [00:45:59] yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:59] I mean, I'd be okay with you guys doing it without me, but my Internet's down, so

Guest [00:46:03] it might be best to do it tomorrow or something. But.

John Dehlin [00:46:06] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:46:06] Right.

John Dehlin [00:46:06] Okay. Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:46:09] Yeah. Well,

John Dehlin [00:46:09] y' all are freaking awesome.

Meggan Hayes [00:46:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:11] I was excited to go another two or three hours.

Guest [00:46:17] Oh, we've lost him again.

Meggan Hayes [00:46:21] We just.

Guest [00:46:22] We

Meggan Hayes [00:46:22] did this all so we could see your hat, Julia. That's

Guest [00:46:24] really. What

Meggan Hayes [00:46:25] happened.

Guest [00:46:25] My hat says bad hair day. Right? Bad hair day. Yeah. Yeah. So do we just, like, close out and just say we'll come back tomorrow, I guess. Or Sunday? Yeah,

Meggan Hayes [00:46:34] well, we'll just. Yeah, it'll be tomorrow or Sunday.

Guest [00:46:36] Oh, there you are, John.

Meggan Hayes [00:46:39] John. Us. Yeah, we'll. We'll find a time. Probably Sunday, I would think. Maybe we can do coffee church. Sunday morning. Coffee, church, news.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] We'll figure it out.

Meggan Hayes [00:46:54] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:46:56] Well, I apologize to the viewers and listeners. Thanks, Julia and Meggan. And we'll regroup.

Meggan Hayes [00:47:04] Yeah. Unforeseen circumstances. It's all right. We can handle it.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] I'll take this down from YouTube. So it's not up.

Guest [00:47:11] Perfect. Okay, thanks, everybody.

Meggan Hayes [00:47:13] We'll just start over.

John Dehlin [00:47:14] Have a good weekend.

Meggan Hayes [00:47:16] See, everyone.

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