John Dehlin: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Brigham Young Podcast, brought to you by Mormon stories podcast. I'm Dr. John Dehlin. It is September 16, 2026, and we're here today to discuss part five of our book of John Turner's book, Brigham Young Pioneer Prophet. Of course, this series follows an epic Joseph Smith podcast series that I did 41 episodes with John Turner about his book, Joseph Smith the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet. And we're now going to be five episodes into this Brigham Young series. This series is best consumed sequentially and there's so much to get into. Today we're going to be covering the emergence of and the development of the endowment, specifically the post death Joseph Smith Naboo Temple endowment that Brigham Young presided over before the completion and after the completion of the Nauvoo Temple prior to the exodus of the Saints from Nauvoo.

John Dehlin: And that's all before we jump into again the end of chapter five of this amazing book where we're going to be talking about Brigham Young's polygamy in Nauvoo prior to the Exodus. So, John Turner, I just expected this chat, this series on Brigham Young to be like a bit of a, oh, yeah, we'll just do a little bit of afterthought, but we might, you know, I'm going to call it now, we might do more episodes on Brigham Young than we did on Joseph Smith if you allow us to do that. And that makes sense because Brigham Young was a prophet for much longer than Joseph Smith was. So anyway, John Turner, welcome back to the Brigham Young podcast. And I'm just, I'm having way more fun than I should.

John Turner: I was starting to wonder if you were just underestimating Brigham Young. I mean, it was the Wild West. And the other thing is Joseph Smith, he was partly constrained in what he could do because of the fact that they were in Ohio, Missouri, Illinois. Once the Saints leave Nauvoo, Brigham Young can implement things that Joseph Smith could only have thought about. So, yeah, hold on to your hats. Hold on to your hat, John Deon.

John Dehlin: I, I will. I am literally and metaphorically. So before we jump in, I have a really important announcement. I've been trying to earn my keep with Mormon Stories, the Y Stories Foundation. So with that, I want to announce some new side projects. So first one is, and, and, and for those of you who are listening and can't see, I apologize. We've got some new websites that we're announcing. So the first is Joseph Smithpodcast.com as if the LDS Church weren't mad enough at me, I have secured the domain name Joseph Smithpodcast.com and you can see it here online.

John Dehlin: And what it is, is it's, it's all 41 episodes of John Turner condensed into one easily accessible webpage. And you can subscribe on Apple or Spotify or YouTube. It's got an RSS feed and it just takes you easily through consumably, those 41 episodes. It also has a timeline if you want to just read through. It's just an introductory timeline. I need to build it out. But it's got a starter timeline. It's also searchable. Full sex church, full search text. Did I just say full sex terse. What did I just say? John Turner, did you hear what I just.

John Turner: There is some pretty wild content in there.

John Dehlin: I mean, I could type in sex in the full text search of the Joseph Smith podcast. I'm sure that word appears once or twice

John Turner: and it might appear more in the Brigham Young podcast upcoming episodes.

John Dehlin: Anyway, you could do full text search and you know, it's got John, John Turner's contact information, of course you can buy the book, etc. And if that weren't enough, if that weren't enough, the Joseph Smithpodcast.com not the it's Joseph Smithpodcast.com we also have Brigham Youngpodcast.com and I know that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith and church leaders and apologists are rolling in their grave right now. But you know, that's just the world, the Internet world we live in. So if you go to brighamyoungpodcast.com right now, there's two episodes up again. There's a timeline of Brigham Young's life and what we've covered. There's a full text search of our transcripts.

John Dehlin: And again, you can donate and support this series from brighamyoungpodcast.com and that's the way to pay for us to just go in depth and cover this series all the way from start to finish. We need your support. We're not funded to pay John Turner and Julia and Brooklyn and me for this series all the way through. So if you are valuing this series and you want to see us go slow and go deep, you can donate now directly@brigham youngpodcast.com you can also refer your friends and family and your bishops and your stake presidents and church leaders and prophet seers and revelators to both of these podcasts from these domains.

John Dehlin: And if that weren't enough, we also grabbed secondclass saints.com and you can again find all of these podcasts fully searchable with timelines and with donation pages@secondclass saints.com so please give me your feedback. Tell me if you think these websites are interesting or worthwhile. John Turner, how do you find these websites? Annoying, overwhelming, underwhelming? I'm open.

John Turner: They look, I just think they look super professional. I love searchability. And so the fact that you can search for content that you're interested in, I think that's a great feature because, let's face it, 41 episodes, 85 hours of content, that's a lot. And yes, we think people should listen to all of it, and they should. But if they, if there's a particular person or a subject they're interested in, they can discover it. And so there's a lot of, there's a lot of functionality here. And I'm excited to build out the Brigham Young Podcast.

John Dehlin: Me, too. And yeah, I don't think our viewers and listeners know that now. Every episode in the entire Mormon Stories corpus has a transcript. So we have, you know, machine language generated transcripts for over 2100 episodes. And so you can go to any Mormon Stories episode, including the Joseph Smith Podcast series and the Brigham Young Podcast series, and search the full transcript from either the MormonStories.org website or, you know, the Joseph SmithPodcast.com website or the Brigham Young Podcast.com website or the Second Class Saints.com website. Same with LDS discussions, by the way. Oh, I forgot to mention that for those of you who are LDS discussions fans, you can now go to ldsdiscussions.mormonstories.org and the entire LDS discussions catalog is there.

John Dehlin: It also refers to the Joseph Smith Podcast, the Brigham Young Podcast, Second Class Saints podcast, you can do full text searches on lds discussions.mormonstories.org and then, of course, it's got, you know, profiles for Mike and Nemo and Julia and Colby. So I'm trying again. I'm trying to earn my keep. And let's dive in now to our next part of chapter five of your book, John Turner. When we left off last week, we focused on the succession crisis and we touched very briefly on Thomas Ford and some of the adversity that Joseph Smith and the sorry that Brigham Young and the Saints were receiving after Joseph Smith's death.

John Dehlin: And I wanted to begin at the, at, at the middle of page 123 in your book to talk about Brigham Young's pension, pensions for violent rhetoric. So much of what we see in the Utah era that we come to associate with Brigham Young not just his super prolific polygamy, but also the violent rhetoric that we often associate with the Mormon Reformation. That violent rhetoric didn't start in the Mormon Reformation. Brigham Young was using violent rhetoric and threats during his time in Nauvoo. And so I want to call your attention, John Turner, to the middle of page 123 of your book. If you could talk about that violent quote that we have a few sentences in.

John Dehlin: I just want to give a sense for how willing Brigham Young was to use violent rhetoric even before he was fully prophet and president of the church.

John Turner: Sure. And just to set the stage, in 1845, Brigham Young and I think most church members, they were in this. Especially early in the year. They're in this weird space between they're hoping they can stay in Nauvoo at least until the temple is complete. And sometimes they simply hope they're going to be left in peace.

John Turner: Nauvoo will flourish. It'll be like the Garden of Eden. But there is mounting pressure on the Saints to leave and a real possibility that they're going to be driven out prior to the temple's completion. And so one of the things that Brigham Young is trying to navigate is how do I get state leaders to keep the peace at least long enough for us to finish the temple?

John Turner: How can we sort of intimidate our enemies so that they won't attack us? And so one of the things that he does is he tries to shore up the resolve of church members to potentially fend off attacks. So one thing he tells the Saints, and I think this is in the spring or early summer of 1845, you cannot be driven, have your fire locks clean, be ready at a moment's warning to slaughter all that come. So essentially,

John Dehlin: I mean, that's. Can I just repeat that?

John Turner: Yeah.

John Dehlin: Have your fire locks clean, be ready at a moment's warning to slaughter all that come. What? I mean, that's. I don't know how to make sense of that.

John Turner: I think it's pretty straightforward. There's a real possibility that anti Mormon mobs are going to attack us. And if they do, they're going to get more than they bargained for. And let me just put this in a little bit of longer context. So if you're familiar with the earlier history of the church in Jackson county, in other parts of Missouri, the Saints are driven again and again, and oftentimes before they agree to abandon a settlement. Joseph Smith was telling his people to stand and fight. And if people come, we're not Going to be driven. We're going to fight back. And there's some similar rhetoric In June of 1844, before Joseph's arrest and murder. So the threat of mob violence is real, and Brigham wants to deter it by having his people ready to fight.

John Dehlin: But, I mean, we all remember the Joseph Smith Zions camp story where Joseph Smith marshals a battalion or whatever, marches them from Ohio to Missouri. There's a lot of prophecies about, you know, vanquishing and war, and Joseph kind of long story short turns tale and runs. And there's no real conflict, at least in terms of a Mormon militia go in full force against, let's just call it a gentile militia. And you never ever really do see Joseph Smith engaging in a. In a coordinated, organized military action or battle. But Brigham, it sounds like he's ready to pull, literally, not just metaphorically, to pull that trigger if provoked.

John Turner: I actually think it's not that dissimilar from Joseph. So Joseph, In June of 1844, there are some mob attacks on outlying settlements in Hancock County. And Joseph's first instinct is no matter what, those settlers should stay where they are. They shouldn't give up their weapons, and they should be ready to fight back. You're totally right, John, that when push came to shove, Joseph, in the end, always retreated. Brigham Young also, in the end, always retreated. So the Saints ultimately leave Nauvoo when an army goes to Utah in 1857. Brigham Young eventually backs down after, yes, some skirmishes and also some loss of life. But I think the basic dynamics are similar. He wants the enemies of the Mormons to think that his people are going to stay and fight.

John Dehlin: Well, when, you know, one of the things I'll just reiterate is it just seems like in the late Nauvoo period, post Joseph Smith, we can see, in my view, the roots and the seeds of what Brigham Young becomes, whether it's violent rhetoric, whether it's polygamy with abandon, whether it's a penchant towards theocracy and theocratic rule, even the racism, it's all there. And so I think that's a really interesting thing, is to study late Nauvoo as a precursor, as a vision for what Brigham Young in the territories is likely to become. It was all there. Is that an okay interpretation?

John Turner: I think that's a fair interpretation. And part of that, and we touched on this last episode, a big part of that is we're going to intimidate internal dissenters.

John Dehlin: Yeah.

John Turner: He sees that as even more of a danger than anti Mormon mobs. I also think Brigham Young takes the possibility of violence against his own person very seriously. So there are multiple reports that he is walking around Nauvoo with a pistol in each of his side pockets.

John Dehlin: Yeah.

John Turner: And he notes in his journal he's got hundreds of dollars set aside to send for guns. I mean, there's a real possibility of widespread violence between the Mormons and their enemies in 1845. And he wants to be ready.

John Dehlin: And I don't expect you to really have an answer ready for this, but I. Of course, there's a part of my brain that just asks, where's Jesus in all this? Like, Jesus, this is supposed to be the church of Jesus Christ. We know they believe in the New Testament. We know they believe in Jesus. And yet, you know, Jesus said, turn the other cheek. Love your enemies. He called himself the Prince of Peace. How would Brigham Young have even squared or reconciled? You know, I'm channeling my inner Patrick Mason here. How would he have channeled. How would he have reconciled Brigham, you know, Jesus Christ's endless teachings about peace and forgiveness and love with his warlike, you know, inklings.

John Turner: That's such a great question. I mean, I. This really is a Christian problem more generally, rather than a specifically Mormon problem. I would simply say he probably would have said, this is not the season for proclaimed peace.

John Dehlin: There's a season.

John Turner: Yeah. I mean,

John Dehlin: the Bible always gives you an out, doesn't it?

John Turner: Well, yeah, you could. You could find. You could find an out. I've not come to bring peace, but a sword, if. If he wanted one.

John Dehlin: Yeah.

John Turner: But, you know, the best, in a way, and it ends up being the solution. The. The best solution for the Mormons to be able to continue to live their religion as they understand it is to get away from everyone else. That really was the only. That was the only solution, and that's what Brigham Young has in mind. But there's this back and forth in 1845 because they don't want to leave until the temple's done.

John Dehlin: Yeah. Really quickly, let's throw a little Tom Ford in here. I think this quote we referenced at the end of last episode, but because I just said the. The seeds or the roots of Brigham Young were in late Nauvoo and I talked about racism. I just. I thought I couldn't help share this quote again. I think he shared it last time. When Young is talking about communications with the governor of Illinois, Thomas Ford, he writes, quote, I should feel myself more degraded in the eyes of the Lord. Brigham Young Jeered to be acting under a commission from Governor Ford, then I should. To be changed into an African. So that. I mean, that's pretty degrading, right, John Turner.

John Turner: Right. Absolutely. I would say this is. Yeah. I don't know how much more we can read into it than simply, this is casual racism. Like, you know, Africans. I understand them as low and degraded, maybe even as, you know, subhuman, but Governor Ford's even worse.

John Dehlin: I'm laughing, but just because it's ridiculous. Okay, so let's talk about his. Todd, you referenced last episode, his Governor Ford dream. Do you want to share the Governor Ford dream real quick?

John Turner: Well, you just referred to little Tom Ford, I think. Yeah. One of the great things about Brigham Young is he liked to share his dreams either with his journal or with his associates. So one of his dreams. This is In August of 1845, in the face of New Mo. Renewed mob activity. Mobs are burning Mormon homes at a place called Morley Settlement in southwestern Hancock county, which is actually one of the settlements that came under attack in June of 1844 before Joseph Smith's death.

John Turner: And Brigham Young has a dream that a mob chases him into a barn. And he says, one member of the mob followed me so close that he fell into the same room. And then Young realizes that it's Tom Ford, about two and a half feet tall, so I guess a diminutive Governor Ford. And Young gets into a fight with mini Tom Ford. And he says, I took his wrists between my fingers, stepped to the door to the mob, knocked them down one after another when I discovered Tom Ford was dead. So I kind of take that like he's using this many. Tom Ford is a weapon to knock down all of the mob. It's a crazy dream.

John Dehlin: Very Freudian. We got it. We got to hire a psychoanalyst to analyze Brigham Young's dreams.

John Turner: That is probably true. I am not qualified to do so. Where's

John Dehlin: Brody? Where's Fawn Brody when we need her?

John Turner: Right. But no, there's some. There's some wild dreams coming up in future episodes. Some of them, you are. You are going to love. And by you, I don't just mean John Dehlin. I mean all of you.

John Dehlin: Now, circling back to violence at the bottom of 124, page 124. It. It actually seems to suggest that Brigham Young was okay with the murder of Levi Williams. And again, you know, we. Brigham Young's going to be. One of the things he's most known for is the Mountain Meadows Massacre. And did he or did he not order it. Did he or did he not cover it up? But he certainly was willing to contemplate execution or murder. And the Levi Williams account is an example. Would you share that, John Turner?

John Turner: Sure. So Levi Williams is an officer in the Hancock county militia and by now he has been a sharp thorn in the side of the church for quite a few years. Joseph Smith actually in December of 1843 sent a posse to arrest Williams and they didn't have enough men and weapons to sees him.

John Turner: So Young understands that Williams is a key anti Mormon leader and there's sort of a back and forth about whether to negotiate with Williams and to make a deal. Young at this point, this is early fall of 1845, he's willing to take a deal that if the anti Mormons won't molest the Saints, they'll leave in the spring. So basically leave us alone through the winter and we'll leave in the spring.

John Turner: And there's some back and forth. And in a moment of frustration, I think when these negotiations aren't proceeding, Young at a council meeting proposed to send a company to surround Williams and company and destroy him root and branch.

John Dehlin: Yeah, yeah, that's destroy him. Propose to send a company to surround Williams and company and destroy him root and branch. That's murder.

John Turner: That would have been murder. But then other, other people basically tell him you can't do that.

John Dehlin: You can't murder Brigham profit wellness of Christ. You can't murder

John Turner: or at least it would be really unwise to murder this prominent anti Mormon. And then it goes kind of back into trying to make, make a deal. Negotiations sort of sort of break down. There is some, you know, there is some fighting back, violence by the Mormons that fall in the absence of successful negotiations, there's essentially some organization of church members under a sympathetic county sheriff that exert some military pushback against the mobs and there are some anti Mormon casualties. I think these Mormon or pro Mormon forces actually briefly occupy Carthage that fall. And I again think this is, this is sort of this dance between negotiations and fighting back that Young is employing simply at this point to buy enough time to be able to do a winter's worth of ritual work in the temple.

John Dehlin: And he prophesies that on 125 that there's going to be a winter of peace in Nauvoo.

John Turner: He does. And I think that's probably more of a hope. Well, it's a prophecy, but it's a hope rather than a clear assurance on Brigham Young's part. I think Young, he comments at One point that fall, I pray the Lord to hold them off until we finish the temple. So, you know, Jung is telling his people, we're going to have enough, we're going to have peace so that we can do this privately. You know, he doesn't feel. Doesn't feel so. So certain,

John Dehlin: you know, and that brings me to a question that I wrote. What's the point of completing the temple? Is this, you know, in my mind I was going to ask you, is this just another failed prophecy? What's the point of completing the temple if they're going to all be driven out of Nauvoo and eventually the temple is going to be, what, leveled and burned? Like, what's the point? And I think I have the answer as I read on in this chapter. But I'm curious what your answer would be, John Turner.

John Turner: So my answer is pretty simple, and I don't think it. I think you'll. I'm curious to hear what you think. I don't think it will surprise listeners. Young and the Mormon people, or at least many of them, they see eternal significance in the ordinances of the temple, and they can get a lot done in a short period of time.

John Dehlin: But why bother?

John Turner: Well, they at. There's an understanding and I think this point is actually a little bit subtle.

John Dehlin: Why not leave earlier and start the Salt Lake Temple earlier? Okay.

John Turner: Yeah. Well, it takes a long time for the Mormons to complete another temple. So the St. George Temple is dedicated in 1877, I believe. Now. Now, this is a little bit of a subtle point because Joseph Smith has introduced the endowment on the upper floor of his red brick store. Baptisms for the dead were done in the river before they were done in the temple ceilings. Second anointings also done before the temple is completed. And Brigham Young at one point has said, you know, if they drive us out of Nauvoo, we will give you the endowment in the wilderness.

John Turner: So it's not as if. And then once they reach Salt Lake, they build an endowment house before the Salt Lake temple or the St. George temple are complete. Nevertheless, there is just a strong sense that it's important for these ordinances to be done in the temple and for those ordinances, such as ceilings that have been done prior to the temple's completion, those individuals should come to the temple and be sealed again. So repeat those ordinances.

John Turner: I don't necessarily think that's because ordinances done in the temple are more efficacious. And, you know, that's not a formal teaching, but I think that's a feeling that Brigham Young and the people have that we want to do these ordinances in the temple. There's an extra sense of assurance in their significance.

John Dehlin: Yeah. And I'll just say, like, you know, I'll never forget when I asked my psychiatrist, Yale trained psychiatrist, father in law, what he thought about proxy work for the dead in the temples, when it just seems so ludicrous.

John Dehlin: And, and he said, you know what? You'd be surprised how hard it is to help people find meaning and purpose in this world. That was his response. That's Margi's dad, my wife's dad before he passed away. And I think we're going to understand in the rest of today's episode why it was so important because it provided so much meaning and value to people.

John Dehlin: While Brigham is regrouping and building his control and his authority and his power and presiding over a very difficult time in the church's history. The Nauvoo Temple and the endowment ceremony and the community and the associations and the spiritual experiences that are going to happen in the Nauvoo Temple before the Exodus is going to be pivotal to many of the future church leaders, including Brigham Young himself.

John Turner: Well, and here's another angle on it. So prior to the temple's completion, only a very small percentage of church members have received the endowment, and only a very small. A smaller percentage have received the second anointing. What Brigham Young has been telling the people is once the temple is complete, the endowment really is for all of you. And so this is a very unique situation in Mormon history. Something that a small inner circle have received. We're going to throw the doors open and thousands of you are going to receive these blessings.

John Dehlin: Yeah. All right, well, let's jump into it. But right before we do, there's a couple more stories. Really quickly, John Turner, in the middle of page 126, you list a list of things that those who leave Illinois are going to be taking with them. And, and there's a. For. For modern day Mormons, there's an item in the list of things they should be taking with them that I think is going to be surprising. So you have. In early October, a church council estimated each family of five adults would need three yolks of. Will you finish that quote?

John Turner: Sure. Oxen between the ages of four and ten, a thousand pounds of flour, five pounds of coffee.

John Dehlin: Wait, five pounds of what?

John Turner: That's the part that surprises you? I was thinking it was. I was thinking it was the thousand pounds of flour, which. That sounds enough. For the whole millennium.

John Dehlin: No, I just think it's interesting that the prophet is commanding people to bring five pounds of coffee. This is the Mormon prophet. This is post word of wisdom. I mean, if it was good enough for pioneers, it's good enough for us today. Right?

John Turner: You know, coffee is one of my core principles in life, John. And so if I was emigrating from Illinois to what became Utah, I'm pretty sure I'd be bringing £50 of coffee. So five seems. Seems like way too little as far as I'm concerned.

John Dehlin: And what. What was this list of items to carry for? Who. Who is this list intended for? Who was

John Turner: each family. So each family of Saints that is planning to leave Illinois and head west. So the majority of Hancock county church members.

John Dehlin: Okay, so before we spend the rest of today's episode on the Nauvoo endowment and the. And the Nauvoo Temple, will you tell the bogus Brigham story? Because I think it's a cool story.

John Turner: Sure.

John Dehlin: And back up and tell us about the. What the term bogus often meant and how it was associated with the Nauvoo Saints before this particular event.

John Turner: Yeah. And just to be clear, there's no bogus history on this podcast. It's all. It's all genuine. So bogus was another term for counterfeit and

John Dehlin: meaning currency.

John Turner: Currency. So bogus money would be, you know, fake banknotes, spurious banknotes, sometimes coins. You can hear the adjective more commonly used, like you could be a bogus prophet, which is a term that is sometimes flown around. So, as we talked about last time there, there is a lot of rumors and accusations between both Mormons and non Mormons in Hancock county surrounding bogus making so counterfeiting of money. And a grand jury In December of 1845 indicted Brigham Young and 11 other church members. Several of those others were also members of the quorum of the 12. Another name on the list was Theodore Turley, who was a member of the Council of 50.

John Dehlin: I'm dying to know if current church historian Richard Turley is a descendant of Theodore Turley. I expect you to know. But, I mean,

John Turner: I believe so, but I'm not positive. I do believe that's the case. So one document from a clerk with respect to this indictment identified Theodore Turley as the chief manufacturer of dyes. And it's not clear whether the. The indictment really included evidence about Young's involvement or sanctioning of a counterfeiting effort. We. We just don't know.

John Turner: One thing we do know is that Brigham Young was, for obvious reasons, Very anxious about the possibility of his arrest. I mean, the precedent that he knows is Joseph Smith is arrested, taken to Carthage, and murdered. And there are lawmen who repeatedly give off the impression that they are going to arrest Brigham Young and other church members that fall.

John Turner: Young is often hiding out in the temple, sleeping in the temple to avoid arrest. There's a scene a few weeks before this indictment in which officers come to the temple, possibly to arrest Brigham Young, and he hides out in the attic.

John Turner: So, but the pressure is ramped up after this indictment. And I think around December 21st of 1845, officers arrived at the temple with warrants to arrest Brigham Young and the other alleged counterfeiters. And so an amusing scene ensued.

John Turner: Brigham Young gave a church member named William Miller a coat that resembled his own coat. I think it was actually Heber C. Kimball's coat. Young loved telling this story in later decades. And so when the officers asked for Brigham Young, this man appears, looks pretty much like Brigham Young. And so the officers arrest Miller, get him all the way to Carthage, and apparently they make some stops along the way. And church members, including Brigham Young's children and Heber C. Kimball's children, they call out to him like, hi, dad, you know, where are you going? Or, you know, hi, Brother Young and the apostles. Then they also disguise themselves and kind of sneak out of the temple to a safe house. So Young calls this the Bogum, bogus Brigham incident, that William Miller was bogus Brigham counterfeit Brigham.

John Dehlin: Yeah, and there's. There's. And that's a fun story. Lots of mirth there. There's two main questions I had as a fallout. Number one is, you know, sometimes I. I like, you know, the idea that where there's smoke, there's fire sometimes. I think that's just how false allegations emerge. In this case, it seems like they had the goods on Turley, and it seems like a grand jury wouldn't just make a bunch of stuff up. How could we bet the probability that Turley and or even Brigham Young were actually sanctioning the counterfeiting of currency?

John Turner: It's a great question. I really wish I had a clear answer. I think in terms of tolerating counterfeiting, I think there's a pretty good likelihood that both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young tolerated known counterfeiters in their ranks. I'm saying that because there were a couple of actually non Mormon men in Nauvoo who had been accused of counterfeiting activity in other parts of the United States, and they were in Joseph Smith's good Graces. He named a couple of them to the council of 50.

John Turner: I think it's also possible that church member Theodore Turley was in that category. I have never been able to find sufficiently clear evidence to really reach a definitive conclusion. I think it's probably not the case that the church was involved in a large scale bogus making operation in order to buy land as their enemies alleged. But I think it's probable that Joseph and Brigham both tolerated, you know, small scale counterfeiters in their midst.

John Dehlin: Okay, that's interesting. And then one of the articles of faith that Joseph Smith left with all of us Mormons and with Brigham Young was, we believe, in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates, and obeying, honoring and sustaining the law. If in fact Brigham Young was tolerating counterfeiters, and even if he wasn't, this scheme of hiding of Brigham Young hiding in a temple and then condoning a scheme where one of his followers dresses up as Brigham Young and fools the authorities into arresting the follower, thinking that it's Brigham Young when it's not, that's in clear defiance of the Church's asserted article of faith that it believes in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law, isn't it? Or am I being unfair? There's.

John Turner: Well, it may contradict that article of faith, but I think I would defend Brigham and Joseph on this point to some extent, in that circumstances had also betrayed that article of faith. So Joseph clearly does not have confidence after the expulsion from Missouri that the law as practiced by non Mormons will protect him and his people. I mean, that's why there's such a great significance placed on the Nauvoo Charter and the legal protections that provides, at least as the, as the Mormons construe it.

John Turner: And Brigham Young has seen. When Joseph submitted to the law under considerable pressure and went to Carthage, the end result was he wasn't released on bail and his enemies could kill him. And Brigham Young takes very seriously the possibility that the same thing is going to happen to him.

John Turner: And so there's no confidence in the secular law, if you will. And Brigham Young and his people have a stronger internal article of faith that they sometimes have to take the law into their own hands and they have to protect themselves from their enemies.

John Dehlin: And that makes sense from a human perspective. I think what modern Mormonism is confronting is kind of this correlated historical narrative that we were taught growing up through the correlation department and the church education system, where we're taught these scriptures or a portion of the history in such idealistic, absolute terms. When Humans and life, they're always messy and things are always gray or multicolored. Nothing's ever black and white or true with a capital T. But we all, so many of us, were kind of raised with that mindset. It's disorienting, fun and disorienting to read this history and just see how any truth, any scripture is, any principle, any doctrine can, can be overturned or ignored or contradicted, just depending on circumstance. It does make you wonder, is there anything solid in this entire restoration? Or is all of it up for grabs or fungible, depending on circumstance?

John Turner: Well, I would also say that Brigham Young's and to some extent Joseph, one of their core principles or operative principles is that everything is subject to revision and that the living oracles, the current prophetic leader, leaders of the church, they take precedence over everything. And so at the end of the day, Brigham Young is asking his people to obey his in the moment advice and decision making. That's what's paramount.

John Dehlin: Yeah. I once, in sort of a cynical mood, asked myself, how do you know true Mormon doctrine at any point in Mormon history? And the answer is when the prophet's mouth is moving. Because that's the only thing you could ever reliably say is Mormon doctrine is at the time the prophet's mouth is moving. Well, I guess that counts as Mormon doctrine because everything else in the past is up for grabs or even in the future. And of course, what's prophecy or doctrine now cannot BE doctrine in 10 or 20 years when the prophet's mouth is moving and saying something different and possibly contradictory of what the prophet's saying today. True.

John Turner: Yeah, I think that's true. But also, it is very hard for us, impossible for us to put ourselves in the shoes of Brigham Young or church members in 1845. I mean, this is still in the wake of the murders of Joseph and Hyrum. There is intense, intense anti Mormon pressure, mob activity. Tom. Governor Thomas Ford has basically told the Saints, I can't protect you. So they are thrown into a situation in which they are scrambling to protect themselves. And they, you know, they have this. They have this big goal of simply staving off their enemies for long enough to have several worthwhile months in the temple.

John Dehlin: Yeah, and so let's jump to that. Let's jump to for the rest of this episode, talking about the role of the temple, the evolution of the endowment post Joseph Smith's death. I think a really interesting sentence to begin with is at the bottom of page 126. And it's. It's attributed to Joseph Fielding. But I just want to be clear. That's not Joseph Eppsmith, son of Hyrum Smith. Correct.

John Turner: Correct.

John Dehlin: So who's Joseph Fielding and how does he relate to Joseph Fielding Smith, son of Hyrum Smith?

John Turner: He is the brother of Mary Fielding, who is the second wife of Hyrum Smith. So now

John Dehlin: Hyrum first wife died, Right?

John Turner: Correct. Mercy Thompson and Joseph Fielding is Joseph F. Smith's uncle.

John Dehlin: Okay, so his mom's brother.

John Turner: Correct.

John Dehlin: And so Joseph Fielding, brother in law to Hyrum Smith, has this sentence of what the temple meant to him and the endowment ceremony meant to him. Do you want to share that?

John Turner: So he simply writes, I truly felt as though I had gotten out of the way the world. That's his impression upon his first visit to the completed temple.

John Dehlin: Yeah. And so let's talk about the temple and the emergence of the endowment ceremony during a very tumultuous time. It's pretty bold, just like it's bold that Joseph Smith sent missionaries to Europe when the church was just trying to get its footing. I think it's almost equally as bold that Brigham Young is putting so much focus on the completion of a temple that's going to be leveled and the development of an endowment when they've got some serious pioneer migrations to do. But let's talk about why it was so important. So talk about the completion of the temple and the emergence of the endowment. And let's even start talking about what happens on in the mid page 128 of your book because you go into detail about the endowment as it was developed in late Nauvoo.

John Turner: So great question. So, yeah, first of all, there's been a lot of labor done by church members to get ready for this. There's the setting up of endowment rooms. This is on the top floor floor of the Nauvoo Temple. There's a subdivision of that space into a creation room, a telestial room, terrestrial room, ultimately celestial, a room representing the celestial kingdom, which is

John Dehlin: rather. Upper floor.

John Turner: Upper floor.

John Dehlin: So now that's starting to. I know I've been to the Kirtland Temple. Nothing like a Mormon temple experience today in terms of multiple rooms and all that. The Nauvoo Temple was the first one that started to really predict what would become the temple experience in Manti and Salt Lake and St. George. What was on the main floor of the Nauvoo Temple? Again?

John Turner: So I think the main floor has larger meeting, you know, larger gathering areas.

John Dehlin: So like an assembly hall kind of thing,

John Turner: I believe, so I'd have to double check. But there's. There's some big rooms that are used simply for teaching, but also for social occasions, even dancing, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a little bit. So a lot of church members have been engaged at preparing temple clothing, also preparing these rooms. They need veils or curtains.

John Turner: And Brigham Young has been also actively engaged in teaching the saints and getting them ready for the endowment. I think one thing that's important to know is that we don't have much information about the contours of this ordinance. When Joseph first introduced it In May of 1840, 1842, we know that it was, you know, it had a lot of inflection from masonry.

John Turner: We. I at least think that from the start it did pertain to this progression and a preparation to enter the celestial kingdom. I think one good place to start is. Is from a journal kept by our friend William Clayton.

John Dehlin: And before you read that, will you read the second sentence on that first paragraph at the top of 128. By early December, the temple rooms were ready. Will you read the next sentence? Because it kind of. It's reminding me of the. Of the New Testament, the Gospels.

John Turner: Neither Joseph Smith nor his clerks had recorded the ceremony, and it remained an unwritten rite of. For several decades.

John Dehlin: Do you know why my mouth is open?

John Turner: Because you did not know that was the case. Because you expect standardization.

John Dehlin: Not just that, but it, you know, it reminds me of the fact that the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were written by Matthew, Mark and Luke, Mark, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. And in fact, they were passed down as oral tradition for generations before they were ever written down. And that obviously allows for the introduction. I'm channeling Bart Ehrman now. That actually leads to the possibility of. Of error or discrepancy or change. And it's just stunning to me that it's not just they weren't written down in Joseph's life and they weren't even written down in Brigham Young's Nauvoo era. They wouldn't be written down for another few decades.

John Turner: Right.

John Dehlin: Like what. What are the implications for change or error or innovation during that unwritten time frame?

John Turner: Great observation. So the, the ceremony, the ordinance is first written down in 1877 in conjunction with the dedication of the St. George Temple.

John Dehlin: That's 30 years after this.

John Turner: It's 30 years after that. So I think. Well, first of all, I would point if people want to get into the weeds, there's a great essay by K. Kathleen Flake, who used to be the Bushman Chair at the University of Virginia. She is an essay she wrote several decades ago called Not To Be Written.

John Turner: And it gets to precisely that point that you just alluded to, John. This is an ordinance that changes a lot. And at the same time, there's some benefits to not having it written down. It allows for those changes to be introduced. But people don't have something. They don't have an 1846 edition that they can compare it to.

John Turner: And I do. I absolutely see Brigham as okay. Joseph has introduced these basic ideas to me, or maybe he's introduced quite a lot. But I'm in a position where I can shape this. And if something needs to be changed or something needs to be different, there's space to change it.

John Dehlin: Yeah. And, like, part of why this is blowing my mind as well is because obviously I went through and got my endowment out in 88, before the Masonic. The really violent Masonic stuff were in the four, and the five points of fellowship were removed. So I experienced the violence, but then also I experienced the change. And in my mind, I'm like, wait a minute. Why would God's revealed ceremony ever change? But this is actually blowing my mind because what I'm learning is it never wasn't changing. It was always changing from the start. Change was the rule of the endowment ceremony, not the exception.

John Turner: Absolutely true.

John Dehlin: That's blowing my mind. And I'm 57. And so how would we even know what Joseph Smith handed off to Brigham? Is there any way of even having a sense for what Brigham added or changed? And he would have had 30 to 40 years to add and change stuff?

John Turner: Very difficult. So in terms what is almost impossible, what is impossible for us to access is what this looked like when Joseph first introduced it. Keep in mind there are no women involved when he introduces it in May of 1842. So almost necessarily that's a big difference. Joseph does initiate women into the endowment prior to his death. We have some recollections from Brigham Young and Willard Richards, but we just don't know that much. One thing that's fortunate is we do have a number of contemporary accounts from the Nauvoo Temple months from December, January, February of 1845, 46.

John Dehlin: So before we talk about what it was after Joseph died, per William Clayton, and I'm going to put you on the spot, you can say, I don't know. But, like, as I'm thinking about the endowment that I experienced, there's, you know, a washings and anointings, and we've got that all the way back into Kirtland. Right. So that was probably part of the ceremony. Washings and anointings. Right,

John Turner: Correct.

John Dehlin: And some sort of obtaining the garment that was probably part of Joseph Smith's thing.

John Turner: Right.

John Dehlin: And garments with the Masonic. The square and the compass and the. You know, that was probably the garments with. With. With markings that would have been during Joseph Smith's time.

John Turner: Correct.

John Dehlin: And then the handshakes. The Masonic handshakes.

John Turner: Yes.

John Dehlin: And the. The five points of fellowship probably was part of Joseph Smith's endowment.

John Turner: Again. I think so.

John Dehlin: Okay. And then getting a new name, where you're given a new name,

John Turner: I would be very. I'm. I am confident that would originate with Joseph Smith because that. That whole motif was important to him.

John Dehlin: And the aprons and the robes.

John Turner: Yes,

John Dehlin: probably. Yes. And then the passing through the veil, saying whatever you have to say for the angels of sentinels to get you through to the celestial kingdom.

John Turner: Again, I would say yes.

John Dehlin: Okay. So, I mean, that's. That's what I remember as being Most fundamental to 1988 endowment ceremony, along with the Jehovah and Elohim and Adam and Eve and Satan, kind of core narratives. So, like, as much as it has probably changed between Joseph Smith and today, a lot has remained, or at least a lot remained through 1990, let's say it that way.

John Turner: No, I think that's fair. I think what. I don't think we. I mean, I could be wrong. I'm partly just speculating. I think it's unlikely that Joseph had this full drama with all of the characters that you just mentioned.

John Dehlin: Okay. With the priest and with Satan and with Peter, James and John and Adam and Eve and the apple and all that stuff.

John Turner: Right. I mean, maybe there was some of that. I think we just don't know. I think that is fleshed out considerably under Brigham Young's leadership.

John Dehlin: Okay. So thankfully, we do have Clayton writing about what he experienced in the temple ceremony in Nauvoo. Is that right?

John Turner: That's correct.

John Dehlin: Okay, Take it away. Take it away.

John Turner: Yeah. And just to be clear, this is not exactly Clayton's private journal, which we talked about a lot in conjunction with Joseph Smith. He's keeping a journal under the direction, I think, of Heber C. Kimball during these temple months. So he writes, it is the province of Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael, which I think is synonymous with Adam.

John Dehlin: Correct.

John Turner: To create the world, plant the garden, and create the man and give his help, meet Eve. Elohim gives the charge to Adam in the garden and through thrust them into the telestial kingdom or the world. Then Peter, assisted by James and John, conducts them through the telestial and terrestrial kingdom, administering the charges and tokens in each, and conducts them to the veil, where they are received by the Elohim, and after talking with him by words and tokens, are admitted by him into the celestial kingdom.

John Dehlin: I mean, that's. That all that resonates with me. There's nothing in there where I'm like, oh, wait, that. That didn't happen when I went through. You know, that's pretty much all there.

John Turner: Yeah. And so, you know, for people who are not as familiar, it is an ordinance at this point that is designed for a couple, for a man and a woman, not necessarily a married couple, but I think perhaps in its ideal form, a married couple.

John Dehlin: And you talk quickly about there's the whole Elijah and Elias confusion in the Kirtland Temple, where apparently they're the same person in the Old Testament, Elijah and Elias, but somehow Joseph Smith makes them out to be separate people. Do we have the same thing going on with Elohim and Jehovah? A question about whether they're the same or different people.

John Turner: So such a great question. So those are two. Well, Elohim's the Hebrew word for God that you see at the very beginning of the Bible in the Book of Genesis. Jehovah is sort of an anglicized rendition of the Hebrew Y, H, W, H, which in English Bibles you'll see as Lord in capital letters for the most part.

John Turner: And there's a long, complicated history. But it was pretty common in the early 19th century for Protestant Christians to simply conflate those two terms, which are two terms used for the same God in the Old Testament. So I give an example of Parley Pratt. He refers to the great Jehovah, Elohim.

John Turner: So, you know, one divine being. But it also was not uncommon for Christians across centuries to sometimes identify the Lord of the Old Testament as referring to Jesus Christ. I don't think Brigham Young necessarily does that in 1845, but he sees Elohim and Jehovah as two distinct divine beings in this drama.

John Dehlin: Okay, so that's interesting. And, you know, it becomes more interesting as. As this paragraph proceeds. So I. I guess what this is kind of introducing is polytheism in a sense, because once you're talking about God the Father being Elohim, God the Son being Jehovah or Jesus, and they're separate beings, and then you're actually talking about Adam, who Brigham ends up calling a God and confusing Adam Michael with God Elohim. Still, in modern Mormon theology, Adam would be the first prophet of the first dispensation who would clearly also become a God with the name Adam. You're starting to pull, you know, almost like Greek or Roman pantheon vibes of, like a council of gods in the heavens. And it even becomes more clearly spelled out at the beginning of the final paragraph on, on page 128. Can you, can you read that for us, John Turner?

John Turner: Sure. For Young, the Nauvoo Temple was central to his furtherance of Joseph Smith's theology, built around sealing together patriarchal families headed by faithful saints exalted as priests, kings and gods. Mormon

John Dehlin: and one day gods,

John Turner: one day, eventually gods

John Dehlin: and keep going.

John Turner: Yeah, and I think this is a key point. Mormon godhood did not mean divinization in a sense, of any fundamental change in a person's nature or essence, since, since both human beings and gods consisted of intelligence, light, spirit and matter. Instead, becoming a God meant simply, and this is a quote, simply to be in possession of a kingdom. And that makes him an almighty man to that kingdom. So the idea is that through the ordinances of the temple ultimately, and through the patriarchal leadership of families, faithful men build kingdoms that will persist for eternity.

John Dehlin: Yeah, and I, I think I understand your distinction. It's not like humans become transformed into gods at some point. It's more like they're gods and embryo.

John Turner: Correct.

John Dehlin: Do you know Brigham Young taught the idea that Jesus literally inseminated Mary and that that's how. Sorry. That God the Father inseminated Mary and that that's how God, Jesus was born and given a mortal body. Did that come from Joseph Smith or Brigham Young? Do you even know? I was taught that growing up,

John Turner: so I will have to check my sources, but provisionally at least, doesn't come from Joseph Smith. I do think it originates with Brigham Young or with his associates.

John Dehlin: Yeah, but that's the God and embryo idea. It's not that we become converted to God at some point. We were always the seed of God somehow.

John Turner: Well, and I think even that phrase, if you think about God, it's sort of like almost growing or being born into godhood. I do think that that statement from Brigham Young is, is helpful in understanding the way that he thought about it. And you, you stated it correctly, John de Lynn, that it's not that humans are transformed into gods, you know, like snap of the fingers, you know, but you, but faithful men have the opportunity to build kingdoms through their families and through these sacred ordinances, and that therefore they take their place in this hierarchical chain of exalted beings that for the priesthood, as Mormons understand it, stretches back to Adam, but really extends beyond that to Jesus Christ and to God the Father, or Elohim.

John Dehlin: Yeah, well, you know, this obviously comes into play in my Mormon journey because I'm old enough to remember when Gordon B. Hinckley, former prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, was asked, I think, at various venues about this idea of humans becoming gods in response to the God Makers book and movie that were released in the early 80s. And Hinckley seemed to want to distance himself and the church from this teaching that humans, exalted humans, Mormons, could become gods someday and rule over their own planets. And Hinckley liked to say something to the effect of, I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it, but Brigham Youngster emphasized it.

John Turner: He did. And yes,

John Dehlin: about the King Follett discourse in the Joseph Smith series as well, but go ahead, keep going.

John Turner: No, so, and then once, once a man has become in possession of a kingdom and achieves exaltation, eventually, after Jesus Christ presents this sort of restored priesthood chain to God the Father, Elohim will then grant these exalted men power to create their own worlds and rule them as Jesus did. So that is definitely inherent to Brigham Young's teaching.

John Dehlin: Julia just shared with me a quote out of the Journal of Discourses under a title Character of God in Christ, Volume 8, Journal of Discourses, page 115. And the quote she shared with me is, the birth of the Savior was as natural as the births of our children. It was the result of natural action. Tell us, do you have a euphemism? Interpreter John Turner.

John Turner: Well, I think natural action is sexual intercourse for sure.

John Dehlin: So I'm not making that up.

John Turner: You are not making that up. And I think, you know, when these are actually, these are issues that Brigham Young cared about. So. And I'm sort of refreshing my memory a little bit as he, as he goes. One of the things that, you know, Brigham Young, he had some objection to the Gospels of Matthew and Luke in their depiction of Jesus's birth and conception.

John Turner: It sort of allowed. He used to comment that it allowed for infidels to claim that Jesus was a bastard and that, you know, in a way, God was a cosmic whore. Master. I know that, you know, kind of crazy, crazy language, but, yeah, natural action, it is what it. What it says it is.

John Turner: I think Jung, he once had a joke that if you believe that our Beloved Savior was begotten by the Holy Ghost. Be very careful when you confer the Holy Ghost on women. You may beget them a child.

John Dehlin: Holy moly.

John Turner: Yeah. So, yeah,

John Dehlin: we're gonna have to call this episode the Naboo Endowment and the God Makers. Julia, that's fascinating. Okay, well, let's. I'm. I apologize. Maybe not apologize for how I'm slow rolling our coverage of this episode, but this is really important stuff in my opinion, and I didn't know all this. I just kind of figured Brigham Young spent a couple years helping the Saints get packed up to then make the migration. But this is a very important time in Mormonism because, as I mentioned to y' all before the episode, the Mormon Church today is about temples and temple work almost more than anything else. The missionary work is kind of sagging, if not flailing.

John Dehlin: People are leaving the church in droves, honestly. But we're building more temples than ever, and you could argue we're doing more temple work than ever. So talking about the endowment ceremony and temple work, it might be the most relevant thing from our history to talk about for modern day Mormonism.

John Turner: Well, it's certainly relevant. And it was. I mean, these two months of temple activity from early December 1845 through early February of 1845, there is demand on the part of the people. So at one point, when Brigham Young is starting to want to pack up to leave, there are still hundreds of people who are essentially demanding that they have the opportunity to receive the endowment. And so Young Young actually has to kind of slow down his exodus plans and make sure as much as possible that everyone who wants to gets to come.

John Dehlin: Yeah, it just goes to show you. And I talked about this ad nauseam in the Joseph Smith series. Joseph Smith promising special power from on high. Endowment from on high. The. The first and now the first endowment, and then the second anointing and then, you know, ceilings, temple ceilings and eternal ceilings. Eternal marriage. That meant it's. It's. It's impossible to overemphasize how much these spiritual ordinances and these spiritual promises served as carrots and. Or motivating influences to the obedience and the faithfulness of the early Latter Day Saints.

John Turner: Yeah,

John Dehlin: it's almost the whole banana. They didn't care about whether the revelations came true so much. They even didn't care about any bad behavior that a failed bank or an affair with Fanny Alger or rumors of spiritual wifery or polygamy or Joseph's martyrdom. It was like, give me my endowment. Give me my eternal Ceilings, give me my exaltation. That was the thing, wasn't.

John Turner: Is definitely a major thing.

John Dehlin: Yeah,

John Turner: I know, I agree. And yeah, I mean, think about the logic. If, if you believe that this is a key step to your eternal glory and that potentially after these two months have passed, you don't know when you'll have another opportunity, then that explains this, you know, crush of demand.

John Dehlin: Yeah. And also nowadays it's very common to hear never Mormons or questioning Mormons go, how did smart people ever believe this Mormonism stuff? And I often like to answer, well, it's the community. Everybody loves the community. People stay Mormon and stay believers because the community means so much to them. But I think that's short changing how much the promise of exaltation and exaltation with your spouse and children and extended family. I think we shortchange, you know, people's devotion to Mormonism in 2026. If we only talk about community and we don't talk about the promises of exaltation with your family.

John Turner: Sure. Well, and I will say there were some church members who came to the temple, participated in the endowment and did think that it was ridiculous. There are some people who then published exposes which are one of the sources that we have for understanding the ordinances at this time. However, those detractors were definitely in the minority. There are a lot of accounts of church members who, they don't, I'm sure they do not know what to expect. Who knows what they've heard. They find this, this stretch of time and the in and the ordinances deeply, deeply meaningful.

John Dehlin: Yeah, yeah. Just to reference that, there's a quote later on where you say some Mormons disillusioned by plural marriage or otherwise disaffected, pronounced the entire affair a spiritual charade. Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

John Turner: Yeah. And then I read a quote from Catherine Lewis, who had, I think joined the church maybe in 1843, 1844, went to Nauvoo to receive her endowment. She rejected plural marriage and that probably contributed to her conclusions, but she denounced the ceremony as a ridiculous farce.

John Dehlin: Yeah. One man's trash is another man's treasure, right?

John Turner: That is absolutely the case. But that quote that we looked at earlier from Joseph Fielding about feeling that he was out of the world, that that was a pretty common, a pretty common response. I also think, and you alluded to this a minute ago, John, the ordinances themselves are certainly significant and cherished by people. It's also this intense, pressure packed time of community of hundreds of people crowding into the temple. They're there for the ordinances. They're there for teaching. They're there simply for socializing. Some people are sleeping in the temple. There are nights in which the Saints have music and dancing in the temple. And so there is a communal and ritual intensity to these two months, which has certainly never been replicated at any other moment of Mormon history.

John Dehlin: Read the bottom. You know, Brigham Young gets grouchy. He's almost bipolar about the temple, sometimes being angry at the Saints for how they act in the temple, and other times singing and dancing and almost having a dance party. Will you read some of those sentences at the bottom of 130 and then at the top of 131 to describe what I'll call Brigham Young's bipolarity as it related to his views on temple service and temple worship?

John Turner: Sure. So Brigham Young is trying to essentially roll out these ordinances with decorum and order. And it's just kind of chaotic. There are hundreds of people coming. Some days people are cooking. You know, you gotta have another group off that are cutting and sewing garments. And it's.

John Dehlin: They're eating, they're lounging.

John Turner: It's crazy. Right? And so Young gets annoyed also, because, of course, people are coming to the temple, and then what are they doing when they're. When they leave the temple? They're talking about it. And so he says, I've been saluted by people using the grips and tokens

John Dehlin: in the street. Right,

John Turner: right.

John Dehlin: People are showing the signs and tokens in the street.

John Turner: Right.

John Dehlin: To bring him Young.

John Turner: Right. That's what he says.

John Dehlin: Yeah.

John Turner: And he does not like it. That's not a good idea.

John Dehlin: What's his reaction? Breast indignant exasperation. Say the quote.

John Turner: I have felt to slap their faces. I do not like the dumb ass that brays in the streets. And he basically says, look, if you're running your mouths, go quick to hell and be damned fourfold. And, you know, he acts serious about this. He. He shuts down the. The endowment for a day in response to this concern.

John Dehlin: Not only is it sacrilegious and blasphemous and really bold to do that to Brigham Young, of all people in the streets of Naboo. But didn't they swear by death oaths that they wouldn't reveal those signs and tokens, and then they're just doing them in the street in front of the prophet? That almost doesn't compute.

John Turner: It really doesn't compute. It. I don't. I don't know, but who knows how many people were actually doing that. But you can imagine

John Dehlin: enough for it to be in your book.

John Turner: But that's true. But you can imagine people come to the temple, they have this intense experience. There is no centuries long emphasis on secrecy and being hush hush about this. So even if you've just sworn to never divulge it, if you're talking to your closest friends and family, of course people are talking about it.

John Dehlin: So, yeah, then talk about the bipolarity, because just a couple sentences later you're talking about the parties and the dance parties he's having. Go and read that.

John Turner: Yeah. And I mean, who doesn't love these images? I think. So in mid December. And keep in mind, temple workers are active, I don't know, 14 hours a day, something like that, in the Nauvoo temple. So at 10:30 at night, when the ritual work is finally over, a church member named Hans Hansen brought in his violin and made melody unto the Lord which cheered the hearts of his people.

John Turner: And according to, I think, William Clayton, while under the power of animation, Young danced before the Lord, joined by several family members and friends. And there are other scenes like that. A couple weeks later, again, after ritual work had concluded, Brigham Young led a French four A dance for two couples.

John Turner: He danced with Elizabeth Ann Whitney. And the temple was full, the floor was covered with dancers. And then there was singing, there was speaking in tongues. There was singing in tongues. And I, you know, if, if again, they were starting late at night, they probably went into the late hours of the morning.

John Dehlin: This is reminding me of kind of the Kirtland Temple dedication euphoria a little bit. Talk about the Lamanite. There were even prophecies. Will you talk about the Lamanite prophecies really quick?

John Turner: Yes. So Elizabeth Ann Whitney sang a beautiful song in tongues. And I think we often think, you know, we think sometimes of speaking in tongues as gibberish with no point other than ecstasy is sort of a display of spiritual ecstasy. But for the saints at this time, speaking in tongues is a form of prophesying, of teaching under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And then it requires someone else to interpret the message. And Newell K. Whitney and Brigham Young interpret what she sings, which is that the Lord looked down on our devotions and was well pleased, and that the Lamanites would soon convert and join in the dance before the Lord of hosts. And our enemies shall be crumbled to dust and fall to rise no more.

John Dehlin: And did that come true? John Turner?

John Turner: That did not come true, but I think it, you know, it, it points to, I don't know, there's like there's this almost a spiritual release, right? And elation after, beyond the walls of the temple. There's this intense pressure inside the walls of the. Of the temple. There's this spiritual ecstasy and release and pleasure and sometimes levity and yes, you're right, sometimes Brigham Young's salty language and anger. But I can see why a fair number of church members commented that it was like heaven on earth.

John Dehlin: Yeah, I'm feeling so torn right now. John Turner, you do this to me. Your work does this to me. On the one hand, I'm really joyous. My blood ancestors were likely experiencing these events that you're writing about in the temple. And I'm thinking, what a beautiful, fun, spiritual, uplifting thing that they all got to take part of in the temple. And I didn't even know that all this happened. And yet it was my ancestors who partook in it.

John Dehlin: So that's beautiful and cool and special. You write, observed William Clayton, quote, it was one of the most touching and beautiful exhibitions of the power of the spirit in the gift of tongues which was ever seen. Young no longer regularly spoke in tongues. Nevertheless, nearly 15 years after his conversion to Mormonism and now at the top of the church's hierarchy, the same spiritual fire burned within him. So on the one hand, I'm thinking, what a beautiful, fun, spiritual, uplifting experience that I'm glad my ancestors, who are going to face a lot of adversity, I'm glad they got to experience and I'm sure forged a lot of their faithfulness to the Mormon movement because they got to experience it.

John Dehlin: On the other hand, I'm thinking when I was going to go through the temple for the first time in 1988, my dad, who, you know, had been disfellowshipped and, you know, reaffiliated with the church, was never an orthodox Mormon, although he still believes in much of Mormonism to this day. As a 92 year old in 2026, what he said to me to prepare me for my own endowment ceremony was, I'm paraphrasing, son John, I have to be honest with you, I never really liked the Mormon Temple ceremony. I found it to be kind of violent, kind of boring, kind of stale.

John Dehlin: It's a movie that you sit and watch. You're more likely to fall asleep than you are to really be engaged after seeing it a few times. And he said to me in 1988, I wish that there was music, I wish that there were sermons. I wish that you would leave the Mormon Temple inspired and Then after I went several times, I'm like, yeah, dad, that's not what it's about. You know, it's about. It's about inner. What happens in your inner spiritual self. It's not about an outward spirituality. But then I think actually it kind of was back in the day, you know what I mean?

John Dehlin: We've lost that. Modern Mormonism has lost a lot of the spiritual euphoria of the temple worship. But it was there at the beginning. It got correlated out. There's nothing to say that all those McDonald's stamped correlated Mormon temples that are now being built in every town and in every village across the world, thanks to Russell M. Nelson. There's nothing to prevent the church from, from restoring Mormon temple worship into something spiritually exhilarating. It's in, it's in our. It's. It's baked into our founding.

John Turner: So. So that's a great comment. I. I remember when, when I wrote this biography of Brigham Young, one of the things, One of the reactions I got from some church members who read it is they didn't like this term spiritual ecstasy.

John Turner: And I think that's because it is very different from contemporary Latter Day Saint spirituality, which in the temple and without is a lot, I think, a lot more sedate. Right. It can be emotional in certain contexts, but it's. It's a lot more sedate and tranquil.

John Turner: There was spiritual ecstasy in the 1830s and 1840s in and outside of the temple. It was a very different Mormon mood. Also, it wasn't routine. That's another huge difference. You alluded to the fact that, that there's a routinization of ritual, right? Intense routinization of ritual for Latter Day Saints Day, much the way that something like the Eucharist or the Lord's Supper is a very ordinary ritual for other Christians, or the sacrament is an ordinary ritual.

John Turner: That's just a very different vibe in Nauvoo in that winter in the temple, there was that sense of elation and exhilaration for the vast majority of church members. It was entirely new. 1500 Mormon men had become Masons in Nauvoo in 1842 and 1843.

John Turner: So it also may be that it wasn't as off putting to them. Not a very high percentage of, you know, 20th century latter day Saints would have had that sort of preparation.

John Dehlin: Yeah. Well, a final thought I had on this strain of today's episode is that we should remember that this is on the heels of the founding prophet of Mormonism being murdered and his Brother. The two heads of the church were just murdered a while ago. This temple euphoria that we're talking about is around what date?

John Turner: Yeah, December of 1845 through early February of 1846.

John Dehlin: So this is a year to year and a half after the prophet and his brother's death. They know they're going to be ex. Expelled from Nauvoo. They barely know who the successor is. They know they've got, who knows what adversity ahead of them, and they're having this spiritual euphoria in the temple in the aftermath of these murders and the adversity and as a precursor to really severe and significant times ahead. It's really interesting to me.

John Turner: It is super interesting. So about 5,000 church members receive the endowment at the Nauvoo Temple. I think hundreds are sealed in marriage. I think hundreds receive the second anointing. It's not something super rare at the time. This is also very significant for Brigham Young's leadership, so for a couple of reasons. Number one, this is, I mean, navigating, keeping the people in Nauvoo, planning for an exodus, finishing the temple. He's really staked his leadership on that, that we are. We are going to be here until we're done with the temple. When the temple's done, I'm going to usher you through it. You're going to receive these blessings.

John Turner: And he's able to pull that off just barely. Secondly, for Brigham Young, he really adopts this priestly role during these months. So thousands of church members see him in that capacity. He often plays the role of Elohim in the endowment. So at least hundreds of church members see him in that capacity. I think that's also significant. So this very much solidifies his leadership over a big chunk of the Mormon people.

John Dehlin: Yeah. Okay. There's one major point I wanted to make, both to end today's episode, but also as a precursor for next episode, which is going to be all about Brigham Young's Nauvoo polygamy, which I promise you all, I already said this last episode. It is.

John Dehlin: I won't say a banger. It is a. It is worth tuning into. I was struck, you know, when I was first starting to look at Mormonism with clear eyes, you know, around 1993, when the September six are being excommunicated, when I'm losing my orthodox testimony and trying to develop a nuanced one, and I'm seeing that so many of the September Six who were excommunicated were excommunicated for feminism, for advocating feminism and the rights of women and women in the priesthood.

John Dehlin: And you know, and whether it's, you know, Lavina Fieldy Anderson or Margaret to Scott or Maxine Hanks or Lynn Whitesides or eventually Margaret Toscano others, and we would have remembered that during the era Sonia Johnson would have excommunicated, I would have thought why, why is, why is women and their role in the church and the priesthood and specifically patriarchy, why is that seemingly the most scary thing of all to modern Mormon Church leadership? And I used to have the explanation that like, well, that that's just a broader patriarchal society that we live in. Like black men got the vote in the United States before women did.

John Dehlin: You know, white women did. And even today a black man has been, you know, elected president and a woman still can't get elected president in the United States, even as recently as 2026. So the way I'm making sense for the Mormon churches leaders terrorization of the idea of the ascendance of women in leadership in the church is just through a traditional human and American patriarchal lens.

John Dehlin: But when I read about the theology and the evolution of the Mormon plan of salvation and then more specifically the evolution of the Mormon endowment as it relates to the role of men versus women and the priesthood and the patriarchy as it's folded into the temple ceremony and the endowment in the plan of salvation, I can see why modern Mormon church leaders feel extra reticent to grant power and authority and leadership to women. And I know that that's kind of probably an excessive precursor to what I want to go back to.

John Dehlin: But before next episode we talk about polygamy, I think we have to talk about the plan of salvation and the endowment ceremony and the temple ceremony as it relates to the role of women versus men. And so would you jump back to page the top of page 130 and would you just read a bit about, maybe even go back to the last set. Start with the last line of page 128. And will you just read about a paragraph, John Turner? Because in my mind this is really important, important

John Turner: as

John Dehlin: it relates to women and a polygamy. So start with exaltation, page 128 and then go to page 130.

John Turner: Sure, I'll start, I'll start with this. But then I also have one thing that I want to add on to it, if that's okay.

John Dehlin: Please.

John Turner: Exaltation began with patriarchal leadership of families in which a faithful man governed his innumerable posterity as their ruler, Savior Dictator and governor. Temple ordinances enabled the Mormons to create eternal bonds and save their ancestors, creating a great chain of patriarchal kingdoms.

John Dehlin: Of what kingdoms?

John Turner: Patriarchal kingdoms.

John Dehlin: Okay, keep going. Sorry, I'm being obnoxious. Keep going.

John Turner: In eternity, stretching back to Adam, king of all. Then, as Joseph Smith had taught, Jesus would present this restored chain of humanity to God the Father, who would then bestow on them power to create worlds ourselves and rule them as Jesus did. So a faithful man is the ruler, savior, dictator, and governor of his posterity. And the woman is the wife. Is his help. Meet now

John Dehlin: wife or wives?

John Turner: Wives. So, yes, that's also a key point. So two more points that I think are very important to this discussion. So at the conclusion of the ceremony, a church leader who plays the role of Elohim so often, Brigham Young brings the husbands through the veil into the celestial room, representing their admittance or attainment of eternal glory. And then the husband joins in, shepherding his wife into the celestial room. Brigham Young's comment on that woman will never get back to celestial glory unless she follows the man back. So I think that's important to the theme that you introduced in your question.

John Turner: But then, and this is a bit of a segue to next week, men could shepherd many women. A single husband could shepherd many wives potentially into that celestial room. And that was a key way in which these patriarchs built their kingdoms. So Brigham Young was sealed to nearly 40 women at the Nauvoo Temple. That's a big kingdom.

John Dehlin: Remind us of the quote Brigham said about. I. I don't care. Finish the sentence. I don't care.

John Turner: Yeah. I do not care how many are sealed to me, nor who. You know, it was sort of, when it came down to it, it was a numbers game.

John Dehlin: Yeah. And even today, in the Mormon planet of Salvation, no Mormon woman is becoming exalted without a man.

John Turner: Right.

John Dehlin: Now, an apologist would say no man is being exalted without a woman, but I don't think it's the same. Right,

John Turner: well, so I'm, you know, if I. If I wanted to put a slightly different spin on this, you could say, you know, Joseph Smith takes masonry, which is a male fraternity, and he carves out room for women within it.

John Dehlin: They're an appendage.

John Turner: Well, you could either. But he also does. I think he specifically says that no man can be exalted without the woman, and woman cannot be exalted without the man. I think the difference, the real difference, is that it's the. The man who is the savior, the dictator, the ruler, the governor.

John Dehlin: Yeah.

John Turner: Okay. And a woman in this system is going to have one husband, and the extent of her glory is going to hinge on that husband's glory. A man in this system at the time in particular, can assemble as large of a kingdom as he's able to assemble through being sealed to a large number of women.

John Dehlin: Yeah. So what this all means to me is I'm trying to make sense of modern Mormonism and things the church has been willing to change versus not change. Yeah, it can. I mean, this is so confusing. Yes. It can give. Allow black men and women to. To have the priesthood to go to the temple, because maybe that wasn't so interwoven into the Mormon plan of salvation.

John Dehlin: Maybe. But. But this idea of patriarchy and of the man being at the head of the eternal family with his wives, with the glory, with the man bringing the woman in, with the multiple women being basically elements of glory to the man, this patriarchal order of men being the kings and multiple women being the help meets, it's baked into the Mormon plan of salvation. It's baked into the earliest iterations of the endowment ceremony and of ceilings. And when you ask yourself, how is it that Dalliny jokes is sealed to multiple women today, and Russell Nelson, the prior prophet, was sealed to multiple women, how is it that a Mormon woman today has to get.

John Dehlin: You know, a Mormon man can get sealed to multiple wives without needing real permission, but. But a Mormon woman can't. In 2026, why hasn't DNC 132 been repealed? Why has the Church been so severe against feminists and so hesitant to make that change of elevating women, even to the point of more women in 2026 leaving the church than men?

John Dehlin: Why is this the hill that the Church seems to be willing to die on? You could even argue why is the Church allowed the LGBT issue to be so fatal to its destiny? Why has it been willing to die on the hill of LGBT and trans stuff along with feminism?

John Dehlin: And I think we've got the answer. In this Nauvoo endowment ceremony, it's because it was patriarchy and men as kings and men as rulers and women as multiple help meets, both giving glory to the man and as being ushered into the celestial kingdom by their patriarchal ruler. It's baked into the very foundations of Mormonism, into core Mormon doctrine, theology, and temple practice at its very root. Am I overstating that?

John Turner: I don't think you're overstating that. It's a. It's. It's a feature, not a bug. I forget exactly where the phrase originates, but it's explicitly described as the patriarchal order of marriage, so that's not understood as a defect. 1 and we'll talk about this a bit next week. For some women in at the Nauvoo Temple, they express feelings of elation and joy at being woven into the system. There are also definitely women who object to precisely what you just outlined. Not large numbers, but there are some. And it's not surprising that in more recent decades, those objections have grown a lot louder because there's much more dissonance between I would say, the cultural values of the United States in the late late 20th, early 21st century and that patriarchal order.

John Dehlin: A more succinct way that I could try and articulate what I'm trying to say is modern Mormon prophets, seers, and revelators would be betraying the sacred ordinances and the sacred plan of salvation of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young if they were to abandon the patriarchal order and to elevate women to the same status as the the men in in my reading of what you're writing here in the Naboo temple practice. And then on the flip side, I'm arguing with myself because by 1890, the church starts to abandon polygamy. So on the other hand, on the one hand, they would be literally betraying Joseph and Brigham to abandon the patriarchal order and the temple ceremony and the endowment ceremony and the plan of salvation. On the other hand, they do that when they abandon polygamy. So I don't even now I'm arguing against myself. Make it all make sense. John Turner

John Turner: well, okay, I'll try, but I'm a historian. I don't really have a prescription for what the LDS Church should do today. But I'll go back to nevertheless, I'll offer two thoughts. Number one, remember I think where we started with today's episode, which was that the living oracles, that is really a key principle and that allows for the for significant adaptation to changing circumstances. So this is a church for which significant change is inherently possible.

John Turner: Secondly, the plan of salvation, when Joseph Smith first introduces that term, I believe it's in a portion of the Book of Moses, which he dictates in 1830. And so that's a long time before Joseph Smith introduces an endowment ceremony, certainly a very long time before something like the Nauvoo endowment. It's a long time before Joseph Smith, in my opinion, has contemplated practicing plural marriage. So the idea of an eternal plan of salvation, it predates some of the things that we just talked about.

John Turner: But if I may, I do want to end on one other note, because I don't want listeners to the Brigham Young podcast to miss it. There's a lot we can talk about in terms of the Nauvoo endowment and what it means for Mormon theology from then to the present.

John Turner: For Brigham Young, this is just a overwhelming display of, of leadership, of tenacity, of creativity, I would say priestly leadership. And I don't know. I mean, Brigham Young, I think he already had a reputation for a tenacious guy for being a tenacious guy.

John Turner: But for him to be able to pull off the temple's completion and to lead thousands of church members through what in many respects, or at least for them, is a new ritual, that is. That is very impressive. And it explains a great deal about how he's able to hold his church and his people together in pretty dire circumstances both in Nauvoo and for the coming years.

John Dehlin: Yeah, and as I've already mentioned, this temple worship becomes probably the most defining characteristic of distinct Mormonism in the modern Mormon era because, again, missionary work's not going great. Members are leaving, but we're building more temples than ever, and we're doing more temple work than ever as modern Mormons. And the church is about to celebrate the renovation of the Salt Lake Temple. We're going to be hearing about that for years to come.

John Dehlin: So this is central to core Mormonism. And I appreciate your patience, John Turner, and our viewers and listeners patience as I slow roll our coverage of this part of your amazing book. Because I just think it's super important and that's why I just think everybody needs to buy this book. Brigham Young Pioneer Prophet, also by Joseph Smith, the Rise of Fall of an American Prophet, also by the audiobook of no Man Knows My History by Fawn Brody that I did the audio work for. Please check out.

John Dehlin: If you didn't join us at the very beginning of this episode, I also just want to remind you all that we now have JosephSmithpodcast.com where you can get the full series with John Turner, including in searchable form. You can donate to that project. There's the BrighamYoungPodcast.com where again, all these episodes will show up and you can do a full text search and a timeline. We also have Matt Harris's Second Class Saints podcast@secondclass saints.com and for those big super fans of LDS discussions series, we have LDS discussions.mormonstories.org as well.

John Dehlin: Again, please donate to this series@brighamyoungpodcast.com There's a donate portion. We want to pay John Turner and Julia and Brooklyn and I get paid as well all the way through this series. And please make sure and join us next episode because the, the polygamy stuff with Naboo, polygamy with Brigham Young even takes the Joseph smith Polygamy to 11. There's, there's, there's polyandry, there's under, there's, you know, teenage brides.

John Dehlin: There's shocking, shocking things and fascinating things in next episode. So, John Turner, thank you for your amazing work and thank you for this series and I just can't thank you enough for your work.

John Turner: Well, you are totally welcome and thank you. Thanks for having me. Love being part of this podcast. Grateful to all of you who are listening to it. Grateful for people who comment, people who donate. I love this history. I love it. The more and more I get into it, I hope that's the same experience for you.

John Dehlin: Our goal is to get John Turner to write a third book or fourth book on Mormonism, depending on how you count. So that's our secret goal. John Turner.

John Turner: Okay, well, we'll see.

John Dehlin: All right. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com Please comment if you have thoughts or feelings or reactions or clarifications corrections. Please comment on YouTube. Let us know if you like the websites. Thanks again for your support. Be good to each other. Be kind to show this. Share this with anyone that you can. We want to spread the good news of these podcasts far and wide. Buy these books and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of the Brigham Young Podcast and on Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

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