The Mormon Newscast

Bill Reel [00:00:03] Welcome to the groundbreaking news program that delves into the heart of Mormonism. Your weekly window into the unique intersection of news, history and culture that resonate with the tapestry of Mormonism. So whether you are tuning in from the heart of Utah or joining us from around the world, your favorite news program starts now, where news meets insights and the stories of our faith unfold. We, we switched over to the different stream yard and we didn't have the newest intro there, folks. But welcome everybody, to the Mormon Newscast. I'm Bill Real. I am grateful to be joined here by my esteemed colleagues, Radio Free Mormon, Rebecca Biblioteca and John Dehlin. How are you guys doing this evening?

Radio Free Mormon [00:00:47] I was wondering who the black guy in the hoodie, I mean, the guy in the black hoodie was.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] I got excommunicated from the opening video and I deserved it.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:00:56] He's back.

Bill Reel [00:00:58] Look at that. Welcome back, John Dehlin.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Thank you. It's good to be back.

Bill Reel [00:01:01] Awesome. Folks, we've got a great show for you tonight. Anything from you guys before we get started.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] I've missed you.

Bill Reel [00:01:08] Yeah, same.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:01:09] We missed you, too.

Radio Free Mormon [00:01:09] Have you been gone?

The Story of the Lone Mountain Nevada Temple Controversy

Bill Reel [00:01:14] All right, so, Rebecca, get us started with the first story here on the Mormon.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:01:19] Do you want to go through the stories that we're going to cover? Really? You know how you always have that little.

Bill Reel [00:01:24] Wait, we're starting. Let me throw, let me do that up there.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:01:26] So sometimes it's good to give people a little preview.

Bill Reel [00:01:28] Yep. So Rebecca is going to talk to us today about garments night and day. Looks like there's been a re. Emphasis on that. And so after that, we'll talk about the changes that women recommend after this whole snafu from the Church of Relief Society, sisters having as much power and authority as anyone on the earth. And then we'll talk. Well, I'll turn time over to Radio Free Mormon who will talk about the Lone Mountain Nevada temple controversy. And we will finish off tonight with David Archuleta's Hell Together. Rebecca, take us away on story number one.

LDS women's issues continue to be discussed

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:02:00] All right, I am more than happy to. Let me move to the first slide. Oh, there's my name. All right, so I'm calling this section when we last left our LDS women. It's been a big couple weeks for LDS women. There have been a lot of news stories which we have tried to cover very faithfully here on the Mormon newscast. So to catch us up to where we were last, if you remember, Worldwide Women's broadcast, the statement from Sister Dennis, the statement heard around the world, as we called it last week There is no other. There, there is no other religious organization in the world that I know of that has so broadly given power and authority to women. So that statement, of course, unleashed thousands of comments from faithful women describing their own experiences that didn't exactly match the statement. Now, what's new this week since we broadcasted last week, is a statement from Sister Dennis, her self, the member of the Relief Society Presidency, that made the statement to begin with and she put on Instagram and I'll read this. Last week I spoke during a Worldwide Relief Society broadcast. I want to thank all of you who were part of that historic gathering. An excerpt taken from my remarks generated responses from thousands of sisters. Thank you for reaching out and taking the time to share your feelings. As we read through the comments, we were moved by some of the experiences you've had as a member of the General Lead Society Presidency. I can assure you that we and our church leaders are listening and learning from the things you have shared with us. We love and pray for you and all our sisters everywhere. Please know that we hear you, we need you, and we care. So that's a very positive statement. She addressed all the women that reached out to share their experiences. I mean, maybe it didn't say exactly what we would hope it would say as far as addressing some of the issues around that original statement, but I still feel like probably most LDS women felt pretty good at that point, that maybe their voices were being heard, they'd made a difference, they'd been able to express themselves through all of these Instagram comments and posts. Then suddenly, just when they were kind of resting on their laurels. Right. A new article in the Salt Lake Tribune. A new message from the church. LDS Church steps up. This message. Wear your temple garments every day. Leader says too many younger women wear them only to church or to the temple. So here we go again. And I will say that this is a phenomenon that I myself have noticed being an older woman. Right. It seems to me that a lot of women of a certain age, probably, you know, the 30 something crowd and under, they do seem to have a very personal relationship with how and where and when they wear their garments. And they don't seem to be concerned. It seems to be a matter of personal revelation. This article goes directly at that head on. I'm going to read a little bit of it just so you guys understand what's going on. So it says leaders will soon send out an updated question to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who want to enter one of the Faith temples re emphasizing that they should wear their sacred underwear as instructed. And of course, we're talking about a temple recommend question that your bishop or your stake president would ask you. General Authority 70 Kevin Hamilton reportedly said as much during a recent state conference in Elk Grove, California. According to several women who attended the regional gathering, Hamilton informed members that unlike the faith's current temple recommend question, the new one won't leave garment wearing up to personal interpretation. And we're going to go through what the current question is. Hamilton, who was on a committee studying possible redesigns of garments. A man on a committee studying possible redesigns of garments. That's nice. Told the assembled lay leaders that too many younger women wear them, mostly on Sundays and while attending the temple. This younger generation, I'm telling you. And someone who attended the conference, Colleen Spear, is kind of reporting back for this article. So let's go to the next slide. What does the recommend question say? Now? It's been a long time since I sat down for a temple recommend interview, so I'm glad they put this in here so I can let you guys all know what it is right now. The online handbook directs leaders to ask prospective temple goers in if they wear the garment as instructed in the endowment. Meaning that you receive certain instructions within the temple. And are you following those? Is basically what they're asking. It states the garment should be worn beneath the outer clothing. It should not be removed for activities that can reasonably. I think that's kind of a keyword right there. Reasonably be done while wearing the garment. And it should not be modified to accommodate different styles of clothing. The handbook adds that members should seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to answer personal questions about wearing the garment. And that's the crux right there. The Holy Spirit. Different people have different personal revelations on how they should wear the garment. You know, time, place, frequency. It seems like it's open to interpretation or it was until now. So this is a huge change, a drastic life style change to women everywhere that like, dare I say, yoga pants. I'm wearing yoga pants right now. The handbook ads. Oh, Hamilton said that younger women are opting for yoga pants. And those are in quotes during the week. Translation. Women don't wear garments under yoga pants. I can attest to this. I will say on a personal note, the first time that I went through the temple and put on garments for the very first time, I, I recognize it now sort of as a body dysmorphic reaction. I instantly felt my mood went down depressive. I felt constrained. I felt like I had gained 20 pounds instantly. I'm sure that men don't experience this because I feel like men wear garments kind of like what they would normally wear, a T shirt, a boxer brief. It's so different for women. And it really does have an impact on physical, emotional, I would say even spiritual health. So the workaround for that that a lot of us discovered early on, yoga pants, right? Dress like you're going to the gym. Maybe you did just go to the gym, maybe you're about to go to the gym, maybe you didn't make it to the gym that day. But you can dress like that and nobody's going to ask any questions about where are your garments or why are you dressed, you know, in something that obviously you wouldn't be wearing garments under. So it's been a workaround for a really long time in my experience. Let's move forward here, okay? Speer, who was the one who attended the conference, bristled at the suggestion that those who choose to wear their garments in their own way are less favorite faithful. Again, it's such a personal decision, or it was seen as a personal decision up until this article came out. Why are we afraid of people showing their religion differently? Spear said in an interview. It doesn't mean they don't value their covenants or care about God. If that's how they feel, let them do it. Lecturing, scolding or judging sends the message, she said. If I can't wear garments in the prescribed way, I am not welcome at church. And I actually think that kind of is the message. It's increasingly clear that more and more members, particularly women, are wearing garments when, where and how they want while fully participating in the communal life at church, including temple worship. And that, said Larissa Kindred, a graduate student in mental health counseling and at the University of Boston, Massachusetts, who has surveyed members. And we're going to get to this survey. It's great About Garments is a window into the social aspect of Mormonism. And this difference here is kind of illustrated by this headline. It's between me and God. It's my personal decision. It's personal revelation. It is between me and God. It's not someone else telling me where and when and how to wear my underwear, which is actually, if you really think about it, extremely invasive. The Utah based faith seems to be in a war with progression and regression on garments, the researcher said, between allowing individual choice and rigid right way insistence. The counsel typically given in the temple has not been standardized and that's exactly it. There's a Lot of wiggle room for personal revelation on this. It can provide a lot of leeway. In the past, people didn't talk with others about their underwear. So issues issues thrived in silence. She said women didn't tell others about garments causing yeast infections. Yes, I said this, this is a huge issue when I said it's physically detrimental to women. It is absolutely physically detrimental to wear that kind of fabric 24, 7 and they couldn't voice it to anyone. These days, members are more open and Internet conversations can validate multiple choices. At the same time, the church has benefited from not talking about garments too much, she said, rather than cracking down. And that's exactly it. It's kind of a don't ask, don't tell. So you in, in that sense you accommodate progressive and more orthodox Mormon. Either side can interpret the wearing of garments in a way that makes them comfortable. And nobody's really saying anything from the top. But that's changing now. And I, I for one, I don't know what's going to happen. Last part of the article and then we'll go to the slides. If women want to wear them on Sunday or when they go to the temple. Kindred said the church still has achieved its goal of making them special and wonderful. But if women are told that there's only one right way to wear them, she said, some might push back and it can erode their faith. And I actually predict that a 30 something Salt Lake mom stopped wearing her garments after her first pregnancy. It's between me and God, she declared. If I felt pressure to wear them all the time, it would make me more resentful. Paradoxically, I feel closer to God if I am freer in my personal choices. Because you're choosing to do it of your own free will. If I can do this religion how I want, I don't think that should keep me from participating. And she is hardly alone in these feelings. And that's exactly the crux of everything right here. So let's go to these graphs really quickly. I thought this is very interesting. So this is a Kindred research. It's kind of called a snowball. A snowball survey. She surveyed 8,500 LDS women that she contacted through social media sites where they were talking about issues of motherhood, sexuality and marriage. So this graph here is really interesting. This is the frequency of women wearing LDS garments and it is divided up by age. What's the first thing anybody notices?

Temple Recommendation: Wearing the Garment

What They're Talking About With Garments

Survey of Women's Garments

John Dehlin [00:12:30] Do I have to call on you 50 every day? 50%?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:12:33] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] 50 to 70%?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:12:35] Yep. That's it. The younger you are, the more you're like, yeah, you know, I might. I might not. The older you are, my age in that demographic, 45 to 64 or over 65, it is over 70%. You're doing it because that's how you were instructed when you grew up. The actual stat is 65 and over 72% wear them every day without question. 18 to 34, 50%. So that's a huge difference in how women in the church are viewing garment wearing. And these are women that are participating fully in the church. They feel it's fine if they wear them 50% of the time. They still go to the temple. They still fully participate. So they're really kind of making their own way. This next graph is really interesting. Is there a right way or a wrong way to wear LDS temple temple garments? We heard the word modify, right? So that could mean that you might buy the shorter garment bottoms, right? So that you can wear shorter shorts. You might roll the sleeve up a little bit. You know, there are ways to kind of make it fit the fashion of the day. So here's the same thing. Do you personally think there's a right or wrong way to wear garments? Again, 18 to 24 says, no, not at all. And then as you get older, you see the people saying, yes, there's definitely a prescribed way that we're supposed to wear them. And they probably can't understand why some people don't feel that way. So especially in that age group of 25 to 34, look at that. There's no wrong. You wear the garment the way that you feel comfortable. So I think these are very telling surveys. And I don't know if the church has looked at any kind of survey like this, but they might want to do that before they put out these kinds of announcements. So our very last slide here on the. On the Kindred survey, things that are more difficult to navigate with garments. And again, these are women speaking menstruation. That's a huge one. Look at that line. And everybody has a horror story. Yeah, that's. That's very dicey. Exercising, participating in sports. Also difficult to do if you're wearing garment. Pregnancy, that's fraught with its own issues when you have to buy special garments and just overall, extremely uncomfortable. Sexual, physical intimacy. That is an issue. Probably an issue for a whole separate podcast. Breastfeeding, again, I can test to that. Very difficult. None of these.

What's More Difficult Than Menstruation? According to the

Guest [00:14:56] Okay.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:14:57] So some of the women said, I haven't had any problems with any of these, and I'M just fine other and then menopause, which probably has a lot to do with being really hot and really cold in the span of like 30 seconds. So anyway, I thought that was a really interesting survey. Along with this, I just wanted to tack on to the end before we talk about these issues, was another article that came out about a change in the age that a woman can attend the temple. And the article is called the Temple Change that so few Noticed. So in the past, and we'll get to what it used to be, in the past, women could not take out their endowments or wear garments unless they were headed for a mission or headed to the altar. That was pretty much when, and in fact, if you got divorced, they would take your temple recommend because you were again, a single woman. Very interesting. But now there's a new announcement. It was made by President Camille Johnson, head of the church's nearly 8 million strong global women's organization. She announced that women as young as 18 can now receive their temple endowment without waiting for a mission or a marriage. Like we just discussed, to be eligible, you have to be at least 18, be worthy of a temple recommend, have completed or are no longer attending high school or secondary school, have a church member, be a church member for at least a year. And I think my slide cut off. But it says something like be committed to, you know, living, living the life that would allow you to go to the temple for the rest of your life. So there's different takes on this. In the article that talked about as being really empowering for women. I kind of look at it like, it's interesting. Someone who's 18 is probably still sort of under the control of their household and their parents, especially if they haven't got on a mission or haven't gotten married. Maybe they're just headed to college. I kind of look at it as a way to maybe, I don't know, get women into garments sooner. Can I say that? Like sort of, sort of control them and urge them to go to the temple. And then, of course, it has another benefit that when they're dating boys that come back from missions who might be wavering, the girl's already endowed, she's already committed to the temple. So I don't know. I have a different take on that and I'll ask your opinion. But I thought it was interesting to at least very quickly go over what the rule used to be. And this is 15 years ago, it said the privilege of receiving one's temple endowment a serious matter. It should be extended only to Those who are sufficiently prepared and mature enough to keep the contacts they and con the covenants they enter into. We continue to be concerned that an increasing number of young adults 18 years of age and older are obtaining temple recommends from their priesthood leaders to receive their own endowment without the immediate prospect of temple marriage or a full time mission. So it goes on to say that they don't, you know, that's what they want. You go to the temple when you're going to go on a mission and you go to the temple when you're going to be married, but otherwise you don't. So this is a huge flip flop from 15 years ago. And I don't know, I think I'm still on the fence at exactly what it means, but to me it means younger and younger women will be garment wearers. So I feel the two stories are kind of related. I think that's the end of my section. Do we have any comments on this? Let's start with rfm. What are your thoughts when you first came across that article?

The Temple Change That So Few Noticed

Mormon Women on Going to the Temple (18

Radio Free Mormon [00:18:13] Well, first thing is that I think it's pretty obvious, at least I think it is to me, why it is that they're having women now 18 out of high school. You don't have to be on a mission, you go to the temple. It's because they're looking at the stats and the stats that they have say that people who go to the temple and get endowed in the temple are less likely to leave the church than those who don't. So as a result, they are dropping the ages on going to the temple. They've already done it with the guys, now they're doing it with the girls. And you know, I hope I'm not offending anybody, but 18 years old, that's kind of a girl, you know, going to the temple. They hope that this will keep people and the youth, especially in the church, in greater numbers than they are already. And you know, the yoga pants, wearing yoga pants all the time just so you don't have to wear garments. That's clever. I think they call that the yoga pants ruse.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:19:12] It works, let me tell you.

Radio Free Mormon [00:19:15] Other than that, you know, I, there's a few other things I jotted down, but Honestly, look, I'm 64 years old. I was baptized when I was 18 in 1978. Okay, where is this coming from? People who are members of the church and they've been in doubt thinking that they get to call the shots on how they live their life as a Mormon. No, that's not the Mormonism that I know and love. Mormonism tells you the way to live your life and you get your life in order with that way because that's God's way and that's the only way. So I'm surprised that there are so many women out there who have a different take on it. And I think the church has access to those stats and I think that's why this message is being brought out now, because they don't like this huge number of women who are not saying, we wear it 247 and we wear it as directed.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:20:04] Yeah, I agree. Bill, what do you think?

Bill Reel [00:20:07] So, two things. One is that if you go outside of the Mormon lens and you ask anybody in terms of unhealthy, high demand, fundamentalist, fundamentalist religions, and you say, my religion tells me what underwear to wear and it tells me how loud I can laugh, it would be absolutely obvious to anybody on the outside that you belong to a very unhealthy group. But when you're on the inside, you just don't know any better. So there's that. Number two, the church in a sense created this garment problem. Here's why. If you go back not even very long, just a few years ago, the existing rule in the church, the temple recommend question, as it used to be asked, was, do you wear the garment night and day as instructed in the temple? Something along those lines. And all of us, I'm 45 years old, all of us have had conversations in the church in the Sunday meetings in various topics, talking about garments and talking about how we are instructed to wear them night and day and that we should only take them off in very rare moments where they are in the way. Making love, going to the, again, the yoga class or whatever it is, maybe swimming. Those are the things it comes off for. But I've heard, I've heard stories where people held it with their hand outside the shower and showered themselves off and then dried off with one hand and put their garments back on or something, you know, and yeah, that just seems ridiculous. The church had the rule to wear them night and day only a few years ago. Two years ago or so, not very long, the church removed the night and day from the temple questions. And you could. And I noticed it because I didn't hear about the change, but I was watching Word Radio and I see, I see Kwaku with, with a shirt showing all the way up, just a little tiny muscle shirt. And I can tell he doesn't have his garments on. And when I said something, somebody responded that the church had made the rule Change that. It was no longer night and day. Well, two years later, Heavenly Father somehow changes his mind again. Sort of like the November policy. Two years later, God, after giving the brethren permission to make it not night and day, has now changed his mind and wants it to be night and day again. And maybe, just maybe, we ought to consider that prophet seers and revelators just don't see around corners as well as they used to.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:22:32] Yeah, they just see yoga pants. That's one observation. This whole article is about women, right?

Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Radio Free Mormon [00:22:38] I know. God didn't know that the women were going to go crazy with it.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:22:41] Insane. What do you think, John?

John Dehlin [00:22:44] Yeah. Well, first, I want to give a shout out to Larissa Kindred for doing that snowball study. I had the fortune of having Larissa on Mormon Stories podcast, and she's got a great story, and she's done really important work. I think this idea of don't ask, don't tell is really smart. I think this idea of seek your own personal inspiration from the Holy Spirit is smart. I think that was smart of the church to be going with that. And of course, we see the results of that, which is yoga pants, tank tops, Mormon who drink wine and beer, Mormon who drink coffee, Mormon who drink cannabis, Mormon who use psychedelics, mushrooms, et cetera, and of course, yes, Mormon that don't wear their garments. And that's really the way much of Mormonism, active Mormonism, is going. I had a guy in my office just today, you know, very well respected member of the church. He drinks alcohol. His wife does with him. He's an active, faithful member, you know, and he does all the things. And I just think that's smart. The more flexible you make it for your members, the more they feel like they want to be a part of it. The more rigid you make it for members, the more you're just gonna push them out. I agree with Bill that nothing screams cult more than trying to control what people's underwear, you know, they choose to wear and what I thought I would show. Just to kind of conclude my comments, is something that I think Rebecca and RFM would very much appreciate. It's a little meme called the Target Effect. Does one of you want to try Rebecca? Do you have a Princess Leia imitation you want to share with us?

The Garment Police

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:24:26] I don't, because I'm Star Trek, not Star Wars.

John Dehlin [00:24:29] Oh, I'm sorry.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:24:30] I can't even look at this meme.

John Dehlin [00:24:32] Okay.

Guest [00:24:34] All right.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:24:34] But I get the concept. Rfm. Do you want to take it? You're more star. Star wars than I am.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] I don't think a man can quote Princess Leah. So yes, Rebecca, go ahead and read the quote.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:24:44] All right. The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers. Princess Leia. And that is very true.

John Dehlin [00:24:52] And this is from some guy named Dustin Gable on Twitter. But it's basically the target effect which shows an arrow pointing up to the top, right? You know, the more strict you get, the more harsh you get, the more you're going to lose people. And I think that's just what the church is doing. It just continually is poking itself in the eye and, and accelerating the hemorrhaging of its own membership.

Bill Reel [00:25:16] Can I, can I just add too, when you gave up the night and day and you let people make that choice, and now for two years people have been independently choosing when they'll wear the garments and when they won't without feeling that immense amount of pressure. And now you go back to it. It's like going to two hour church and then back to three. You're gonna run into problems.

Radio Free Mormon [00:25:38] Yeah, well, from the church's point of view, they keep treating their members as they try and keep, treat them as if they're grown ups, right? And then when they do that, they act like children. So now they've got to come back in and lay down the law. They were hoping, they were hoping better things of their members that they would be more responsible in the personal revelation that they were receiving. And now they've got to lay down the law with some revelation directly from God.

John Dehlin [00:26:03] And if I'm trying to like, put myself in their shoes, I think they're just seeing people leave in, in droves and they're thinking, how do we keep them, how do we encourage them to keep their covenants? And I think in their geriatric minds, the more they're wearing their garments, the more they're remembering their covenants. And so if they wear their garments more, the more likely it is that they'll keep their covenants because their garments remind them of their covenants. And that might be true for some, but it's certainly with the younger people, the younger you go, the more ridiculous that is. And the more people are just going to say this is dumb and leave. I think.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:26:42] Yeah, no, and I feel like you feel cranky when you put them on in the morning. For women, it's a big problem. You have to choose your outfit based on it. You have to. It's just, it's more of, of a cumbersome problem than it is thinking, oh, I I'm remembering my covenant. So but I think about the early church, right? Everybody was having personal revelation. Joseph Smith was encouraging that, and then suddenly the personal revelation wasn't quite lining up with what he wanted things to happen. And so then you kind of have to crack down on personal revelation, however it happens. So I think it's a cycle. But I think I have one more quick slide if you want to pull that up. It's a meme by the wonderful Cultural hall again about the garment police, right? Excuse me, ma'.

Radio Free Mormon [00:27:18] Am.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:27:18] I'm going to have to to see your underwear. That's it.

Bill Reel [00:27:22] Awesome. Rebecca, anything else from you folks? I appreciate each of you your insights on the story. Anything else from you, Rebecca? Otherwise, we'll go.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:27:28] No, I think we better move on. We have so many great stories this broadcast.

LDS Church First Counselor Annette Dennist Stirs

Bill Reel [00:27:31] Sweet. I'll turn some time over to a video I created to share my story. This has to do kind of as a follow up to what's been going on lately with this this whole thing with women in the church having priesthood power and authority above that of the females of any other faith. So here we go. In a recent statement, J. Annette Dennist, first counselor in the LDS Church's General Relief Society presidency, stirred controversy by declaring, quote, there is no other religious organization in the world that I know of that has so broadly given power and authority to women, unquote. This assertion has sparked a wave of criticism and dissent among both women and men within the church. Thousands of comments flooded in expressing disagreement with Dennis's claim. Many pointed out the stark reality that LDs women often hold little influence over church policies and directions, only being allowed to lead under men. The backlash has persisted for over two weeks, drawing attention from major news agencies worldwide. One can go back to early leaders to get a sense of the church often disregarding women. Brigham Young, for instance, once said, women have no right to meddle in the affairs of the Kingdom of God. Outside the pale of this, they have a right to meddle because many of them are more sagacious and shrewd and more competent than men to attend to things of financial affairs. They never can hold the keys of the priesthood apart from their husbands. When I want sisters or the wives of the members of the church to get up Relief Society, I will summon them to my aid. But until that time, let them stay at home. And if you see females huddling together, veto the concern. For decades, women within the LDS Church have been advocating for changes to improve the conditions for female members. While some may argue that women are content with the current structure. It's essential to recognize that equality cannot be determined solely by individual satisfaction. Notably, former LDS prophet Gordon B. Hinckley in 1998 stated, when asked if women would ever hold the priesthood, he answered, quote, well, they don't hold the priesthood at the present time. It would take another revelation to bring that about. I don't anticipate it. The women of the church are not complaining about it. They have their own organization, a very strong organization, 4 million plus members. I don't know of another women's organization in the world which does so much for women as does that as this church has. They're happy. They sit on boards and governance in the church. I don't hear any complaints about it, unquote. On a separate occasion, when asked, is it true that the women cannot hold the priesthood? He stated, quote, yes, but there's no agitation for that. We don't find it. Our women are happy. They're satisfied. These bright, able, wonderful women who administer their own organization are very happy. Ask them. Ask my wife. Unquote. Well, Gordon, they are agitating and complaining. And as time goes on and the world becomes more inclusive in valuing equality of humans rather than dividing along gender lines or skin color or sexual orientation, and in a world where their voice is being heard outside church channels at large, women and others are going to voice their criticisms of a faith that is slow to come around. In spite of being led by so called prophet seers and revelators. The church will have to decide who it alienates and who it caters to. The Salt Lake Tribune recently asked women inside the LDS church what changes they specifically wanted to see. Responses included calls for greater female speaker representation at general conference, allowing young women to pass the sacrament, inclusion of women in all levels of Sunday school leadership, and empowering the Relief Society to resume its former autonomy. Additionally, there were demands for women to participate in the selection process for new stake presidents, permission for women to make callings without male approval, and the reinstatement of female blessings. Suggestions extended to having female leaders seated on the stand during sacrament meetings and calling women to serve as ward clerks. The overall sentiment was a plea for the church to recognize and address the systemic inequalities that persist within its structure. As the LDS Church grapples with mounting pressure for reform, the question of female authority and empowerment remains at the forefront of discussion. Calls for changes are growing louder and with many members advocating for a more inclusive and equitable approach that reflects the values of equality and respect within the church's teachings. In the end, if you want to claim that women have more power and authority than the women of any other faith, you will need to be able to describe specifically the things they can do that the women of other faiths cannot. And as to yet, the LDS Church seems unable to do that. And until then, it is just giving lip service as a way to sound feminist while being anything but. All right, folks, what do you think about. So it seemed as though they weren't really demanding priesthood as far as the article went, but that there was a lot of things that the church could do and you saw some of the changes there that were listed. Thoughts from you guys in terms of the kind of progress that Mormonism could make.

The Fight for Women's Authority in the LDS Church

Why Do Mormon Women Not Want the Priesthood?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:34:02] I just want to know how many times they're going to tell us that we're happy. That's a huge red flag. When somebody keeps telling you that you're happy, it means that they're sensing that you're not so happy. I also had the thought just now that the Relief Society, they always touted as such a strong, vibrant, incredible women's organization. Have we forgotten that Brigham Young shut it down for, was it two decades? I can't remember. It was. It was quite an amount of time. So how vibrant and strong and powerful and with authority is your organization if a man can shut it down and then start it again? So I just think it's sad when you think about the membership of the church. Over 50% are women. This resource is completely neglected. They need people to lead, they need people to serve. They're. They're dying to, to get anybody in those leadership positions. And the women are not utilized anywhere remotely near their full capacity. All the issues of, you know, filling the callings and everything could be addressed and solved if you would just let women participate in the same capacity as men. It's. It's a waste. I think it's a complete waste of a wonderful resource within the church.

Radio Free Mormon [00:35:10] Yeah.

Bill Reel [00:35:11] John, your thoughts?

John Dehlin [00:35:13] Yeah, I mean, he's not wrong. I remember when the ordained women thing happened back in 2014, they did survey faithful Mormon women. And my recollection is less a smaller percentage of Mormon women expressed a desire to hold the priesthood than faithful Mormon men expressing the desire for women to hold the priesthood. And I'm sure that that hasn't changed much between then and now. We could theorize on the different reasons why. Maybe they don't think it's real. You know, maybe either, you know, consciously or subconsciously they don't value it. They see it as silly. Possibly they don't see a real effect in their lives. And they're like, why would I advocate for this? It's possible they're way too busy and way too stressed out and they can't add another thing. But it's also most likely, I mean, it's ironic to hear that from Gordon B. Hinckley. Was he the prophet that. That presided over the September 6th? Like, if my mem is correct, something like four of the six people excommunicated in 1993 were women advocating for women to have the priesthood within Mormonism. And that doesn't count. Like Margaret Toscano and others who were excommunicated sort of around that time. And so, like, why in the world would Mormon women be anything other than terrified to state openly and publicly that they wanted the priesthood? And what that reminds me of is a little psychological experiment that I learned about when I was getting my degree in psychology. If you guys want to learn something really cool, check out the Concept of Learned helplessness by Dr. Marty Seligman. And without really boring you, I'll just cut to the chase. They basically put this dog in a little box, and whenever the dog tries to jump out of the box, they shock it. And over time, they basically stop shocking the dog, but he still won't jump over into the other square because he learned to be helpless from the constant shock. And I think that's a better explanation as to why Mormon women don't want the priesthood. 200 years of shocks and of pain and of punishment and of negative conditioning has probably led to that, quote, lack of desire.

Bill Reel [00:37:51] Yeah, I feel bad for Mormon women and dogs in that experiment. Radio Free Mormon. Your thoughts?

Radio Free Mormon [00:37:57] Well, the learned helplessness. That experiment reminds me of the famous old saying by Mark Twain about the cat that jumped up on the hot stove. And he said, after that, the cat never jumped on a hot stove again. Of course, the cat never jumped on any stove again. Same kind of idea, huh? You know, I couldn't help but notice that Sister Dennis, who lit the match on this dynamite with her statement in the. What was it? The March 17th Relief Society Commemoration broadcast. And I know you've already read the statement. And then she had to respond to it by talking about, yeah, we're listening to everything that you guys are saying, and we're trying to learn from it. Oh, yeah, she tipped her hand in that statement because here she is, she's the second counselor in the highest body of women's leadership in the church. If I can call the Relief Society General presidency that I think that's Pretty obvious, right? And yet she herself draws the distinction between them and church leaders. They're not church leaders. By her own words, what she said was, we and our church leaders are listening to what it is you're saying. So even there, and she's the one who made the statement that caused the difficulty in the first place, saying, you know, we've got broader authority than any other church that I know of, but we're not even leaders in our own church. Yeah.

Sister Dennis on the Relief Society Statement

Bill Reel [00:39:26] Thank you. All right, Radio Free Mormon, take us to the next story, my friend.

Lone Mountain Temple Protest in Las Vegas

Radio Free Mormon [00:39:32] Okay, I'll do my best. Thank you so much. Slides, please. Yay. This is a story about the Lone Mountain Temple in northwest Las Vegas. It has not been built yet. This is a design that it's going to look like once it gets built in this wonderful neighborhood that's not happy about it being there. Okay, so let's go. Do I have slides that I can do or do I have to call for slides?

The Lone Mountain Temple

Bill Reel [00:39:54] No, you can. You can.

Radio Free Mormon [00:39:55] Yay. Okay. I have absolute power. Here we go. So this is a map. This is northwest Las Vegas. And over here on the right, you can see all of Las Vegas. You can sort of see that square there. The square is the big map. And over here with the arrow and that box down there, lower left, that is the site for the temple. That's where it's going to be. At least that's where they're planning on building it. All right. The Lone Mountain Temple. By the way, I also have to give credit to Mormonish and Rebecca Biblioteca and Landon Brophy for these wonderful slides. If the slides in my presentation look good, I stole them. All right. The other slides I made. Thank you so much, Rebecca, and for your research on this.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:40:40] No, this is a great issue.

Lone Mountain Temple Renderings

Radio Free Mormon [00:40:43] All right. Lone Mountain Temple. It was announced October 2, 2022. That will be mildly important later. The site announcement for that site that I just showed you December 12, 2022. The rendering released that picture February 26, 2024. Now, the site is 19.8 acres. It's basically 20 acres. I can round it the number and remember it more easily. Architectural features. There's a single attached central tower. See that tower right there in the central. And that tower goes up 240ft into the sky. That's the equivalent of a 24 story office building. If you give 10 floors or 10ft for each floor. And that's the main thing I wanted to talk about. Here I am taking what Mormonish did in an hour and a half. I'm Just trying to get to the nuts and bolts of it so I can do it in a quicker time here. All right, next slide. Once again, this is the map of Las Vegas Northwest. It's important to know that this entire area where the temple site is bought, purchased and planned is zoned residential. That means for residences, that means only homes can go in there and they can only be two stories in height, a maximum of 35ft. That is according to the zoning. That's all that's there. It is part of Las Vegas, by the way. It's in the city, so it's governed by the City Council of Las Vegas. And here, the existing residential area parameters, I think I just mentioned a lot of those. I should note this is designated as a rural preservation neighborhood. And you can see the sign there that there's a picture of. It is the Lone Mountain Rural Preservation Neighborhood. You can't build anything taller than 35ft. There's limited curbs, sidewalks and street lights. It is out there. It's dark at night because they don't have street lights. And that's made this way and preserved this way. Because the people who live out there want it this way. And they've had it this way I think for over 20 years now. I think it was around 2002 that these restrictions went in and that. That these people who live there want to have it this way. So that when the sun goes down, they can see the night stars and they can have a place where they can go to where it's not like the middle of downtown Las Vegas. They want to get away from that. And you can't build a religious facility on over five acres. Okay, remember, it's 20 acres, the temple site. You can't build a religious facility on over 5 acres. Per the residential area parameters. This is a mock up of what the temple will look like once it's completed in this neighborhood. So you can see all residences. There's going to be a big 240 foot temple there right in the middle. And this is from a different angle much further away. And you can see way there, right about the middle. Just a little bit to the left of the center of that. That picture mock up the temple against the back of the mountain. So it's going to stick out like a 240 foot, brightly lit sore thumb. And that's what's causing a lot of problems with the people who live there. They're not excited about having a temple there. That's going to violate all of the zoning, both the residential as well as the rural preservation neighborhood. Okay, so. But the church wants this place and dang it, the church gets what it wants. There are two things preventing this temple from being built in this location. Remember, it's already been purchased. One, it's zoned residential. We talked about that. Two, it's a rural preservation neighborhood. Note, even if it were zoned for civic zoning, what's sometimes referred to as CV civic zoning, the temple would not be allowed because religious buildings can't be built on more than 5 acres. Even if it were zoned civic zoning, which it is not zoned at this time, it is residential. So the church needs a two pronged approach here. Number one, the church needs to change the civic zoning to permit religious buildings on more than five acres because they're building this temple as well as a steak center. I understand, on this 20 acre parcel, 19.8 acres, which is about four times more than five acres. And two, it needs to change the temple site from residential to civic zoning. Okay, it could do it the other way, reversed. But they have to do two of those things. They've got to make it not residential. They've got to make it civic zoning. But even if they did that, there's a five acre maximum on religious buildings. So they have to change the civic zoning definition so religious buildings can be built on more than five acres. I hope you're following this. There's a couple of moving parts here. So, Las Vegas City Council. A bill was introduced by City Council member Francis Allen Polinski. It's Bill 2024 because it's the year Dash 8. I'm guessing it's the eighth bill introduced this year would change civic zoning to, among other things, permit religious buildings on sites larger or greater than five acres. Wow, that sounds like the first part of the plan, doesn't it? Bill 20248 was approved by the City Council of Las Vegas by a 6 to 0 vote with one member absent. And that was done on March 30th of 2024. So really March 20th. That was just a couple weeks ago. I think less than a couple of weeks ago. And here is the relevant portion of the actual bill where it says permitted land uses. Remember, once again, they're changing the definition. They're modifying the definition of civic zoning. And down there, number four, it says when. Thank you. When operated or controlled by a recognized religious, fraternal, veteran, civic or service organization. That would include the Mormon. The following uses are permitted a church slash house of worship on a site of five acres or more. See, now you can have it on as big a parcel as you want. You're not limited to five acres anymore. Under the definition, the new definition of civic zoning, I'm going to mention this too. Hold on to that thought. When you do these kinds of things, when you do zoning changes, you have to have public meetings. The public has to be allowed to attend. It has to be advertised. People can know about it so they can come and make comments. On February 28th of 2024, a meeting was held at a stake center to inform the residents in the proximity of the proposed temple site about the temple details. The church's law firm, Kempfer Crowell led the meeting. Church leaders were also in attendance. But notice Kimfer Crowell is the church's law firm who appears to be representing them in this action to try and get this temple built. So that was February 28, 2024. Kempfer Crowell is the name to remember because some people, some very smart people went back and they did a little digging and they found out that on the city council they already knew this. There's a mayor and there are six council people, so seven in total. And the law firm of Kimfer Crow has been making a lot of donations to these council members over the last couple of years. In fact, they've been pretty much all $10,000, which I understand is probably the maximum legal donation from any individual or company within a year's time. So what happens is in 2020, far right, no donations. I'm not sure what happens in 2019 or 2018. I don't have that information. But 2020, Kim for Crow, that law firm that's representing the church, not making any donations to anybody on the city council. 2021 comes along. Remember, it was purchased, the land was purchased. 2022. In 2021 there's one ten thousand dollar donation that goes to council person career. Then you go to 2022 and now the donations start coming in fast and furious. There's a ten thousand dollar donation to the council woman from Ward 2. It says here a ten thousand dollar donation to the Councilwoman from Ward 3 and a ten thousand dollar donation to the COUNCILWOMAN from Ward 4. By the way, Ward 4 is the area of Las Vegas where the temple site is. That's why Alan Polinski, that's the last name of the council member who introduced the bill. She introduced. Well, I don't know. She introduced the bill. It changed the definition of the civic zoning. But she's the one who introduced that bill. Bill. And then in 2023, two more ten thousand dollar donations were made one to Councilman Woman, Ward 2, and Councilman Ward 1 each got ten thousand dollars. So over the course of this time, ten thousand dollars to Council to Ward 5, ten thousand dollars to Ward 4, ten thousand dollars toward 3, twenty thousand dollars toward 2, and ten thousand dollars to Ward 1. The only two who did not get donations from Kimfer Crowell are Ward 6, the councilwoman there, and the mayor whose last name is Goodman. Now, that might seem a little strange to you. I got to admit, it seems a bit strange to me. And here we have the video from the March 20, 2024 meeting in which this bill was passed which redefined civic zoning to allow for greater than a five acre parcel for religious buildings. Notice that this is less than a minute. Nobody shows up for it. Nobody knows what's going on. Apparently it's just one and done as a matter of procedure. And here is that video.

What should the temple be zoned?

Las Vegas City Council approves religious buildings under civic zoning

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:51:26] There's a motion to Approve Agenda Item 42. Please vote and then please post. That Motion carries. We'll move on to agenda item 43, recommending committee bills eligible for.

Radio Free Mormon [00:51:47] There it was. Did you catch it? It went by pretty quick, didn't it? Nobody was speaking for or against. It was just very, very much pro forma. And that was where that bill got passed on March 20th. All right, can I get that slideshow up again? Thank you very much. Well, this came to the attention of the neighborhood group who is fighting against having this temple placed there in their rural neighborhood that they have had protected now for over 20 years. And one of the members or the entire group wrote a letter, and this is how the letter goes. Dear Councilwoman Allen Polinsky, that's their council woman, she represents them on the city council. It has come to the attention of our group that bill 202408 that you have sponsored appears to weaken the stringent requirements in the current CV zoning code. Once again, that's the civic zoning code. Furthermore, after a thorough review of the previously mentioned bill, it appears to be tailored to aid in the approval of the Lone Mountain Temple and separate meeting house development. That's the Stake center, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The developer has used this same playbook all over the country to get their projects approved. It is disappointing to see our community bow to this developer at the expense of of an established rural neighborhood, with the developer requesting a zoning change from residential to civic for the Lone Mountain Temple and separate meeting house project at the upcoming April 9th planning commission meeting. Now, here's what's going on. Okay, so they've got the civic definition for civic zoning changed. Now the second part is in place, which is a motion has been made to change this neighborhood from residential to civic. See, it's the old one two punch and that is coming up for public comment on April 9th. So that is just eight days from now. Today's April 1st, 2024. So eight days from today, a week from tomorrow, it's going to be up for public comment and they are going to make a decision on that. When I say they, I mean the not the City Council, but the Planning Commission. I think it is with the developer requesting a zoning change from residential to civic for the Lone Mountain Temple and separate meeting house project at the upcoming April 9th planning commission meeting. The timing of the introduction of the bill seems strange. With that in mind, will you please provide an explanation of why this bill was created, the timeline of when work on the bill it was initiated, the names of the City of Las Vegas employees that have worked on this bill, and the names of any outside persons that may have contributed to the creation of this bill. Also of notice the fact that you have accepted $10,000 in contributions from the law firm Kempfer Crowell that is representing the developer, I. E. The LDS Church. These donations occurred the same year the property was acquired by the developer. 2500 on 614 22, $3,000 on 9922 and $4,500 on 12 2nd, 2022. See, that totals 10,000. Along those same lines, I better double check that. I'm pretty sure it's right. Yeah. Along those same lines, it appears Councilman Knudsen, Councilwoman Seaman, Councilwoman Diaz and Councilman Creer have all accepted contributions totaling $60,000 from the previously mentioned law firm. In total, the council has received $70,000 from this single law firm, 40,000 of that occurring either right before the land purchase or right after. Lastly, we respectfully request that you please investigate any potential conflicts of interest that could occur if any person working on the previously mentioned bill or any other matter regarding the previously mentioned development is affiliated with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Thank you for your time and attention to the matter. We look forward to your response. At your earliest convenience, the Preserve Rural Vegas Committee. All right, so what happens next? This is a nice slide. You can tell this is from Mormonish. Thank you, Rebecca. Second, what happens next? Planning Commission will review the request to rezone from residential to Civic on April 9, 2024 because the requirements for civic zoning have already been changed by the passing of Bill 2024. 8. Remember, on March 20, if the zoning request passes, the church will only have to get a minor plan review of the project. This would most likely pass without the changes to civic zoning requirements already passed and the rezoning of the parcel from residential to civic vote pending. The church would have faced a major plan review with the special use permit request, which most likely would not have passed since the temple would not meet current zoning laws. So April 9, going to be a very, very important day for the church and also for the residents of this area. Ah, well, the church has sprung into action because they know that they need to try and grease the skids as much as they can and try and show the members of the planning commission. By the way, my understanding is you've got the city council, you got the planning commission. Each member of the city council appoints a member of the planning commission. So basically, they represent the city council, and they're probably going to do what they're told to do in most instances. All right, the church is flung into action. A letter to ward members in the ward that I believe that encompasses this area was sent out recently. It says, I want to wish each of you a joyous Easter. That's how recently it was sent out. Yesterday was Easter. As we take time to commemorate the Lord Jesus Christ's victory over both sin and death through his atonement and resurrection, may you feel his love for you more deeply as you contemplate his sacrifice for us, us individually as well as collectively. In October 2022, President Nelson announced plans to construct the Lone Mountain Temple in the Las Vegas Valley. As is usually the case with the construction of new temples, there is some opposition to this project. The adversary will try to thwart any effort to make temples more accessible to the saints. The Las Vegas Temple Presidency has put together a letter listing resources that will enable you to voice support for this project. If you are so inclined. I have attached a copy for your information. I am very grateful to be part of such an amazing word family and for all the selfless service you perform. Thank you for your faithfulness and dedication. Dedicated discipleship to our Savior Jesus Christ. So that would be coming probably from the bishopric, since it's addressed to ward members. Here's a letter from the Las Vegas Temple Presidency. Remember, they already have a temple there. So they already have a temple presidency. They wrote this letter as well. It looks like it was probably done by email. It goes like this. Dear brothers and sisters, as you are aware, In October of 2022, President Nelson announced the planned construction of the Lone Mountain Temple in our valley. That land use application has now been filed and has entered a public comment period. We invite members who support the approval of the temple and what member wouldn't, to express support by submitting a response on the City of Las Vegas's public comment page before April 8th. That's the deadline. Remember the meetings the day after and the City Councilwoman Frances Allen Polinski's Facebook page. Links to these pages are available downstairs. In other words, see below. So they got the links there. Additionally, social media is very important. They also have a link to Frances Allen Polinski's public Facebook page. Additionally, social media is very important. We know that many in our community, including elected leaders, are following the public discussions online. In that regard, we invite you to follow our elected officials social media pages and look for ways to express support for the proposed temple on those social media pages. Finally, we invite you to express support for the proposed temp temple in response to news articles on the topic in the online comments sections. Thank you for your consideration of this invitation. Well, if you didn't get the message from the bishopric or from the temple presidency, good news is state presidency gets into the act as well. You can guess what it says. Very much similar to what the others have said. The Las Vegas, Nevada Red Rock State as we have entered into a public comment period regarding the Lone Mountain Temple, many have asked about ways we can encourage public support for the Lone Mountain Temple in that regard. Please see some ideas in the attached document. They have an attached document with lots of ideas. I'm not going to read that. While we invite supporters to speak up, no one should feel compelled to offer support. Please remember the importance of expressing support in a kind and neighborly manner without becoming combative. It is not necessary to respond to negative comments that will be made and it may be better to just ignore them. What is important is that succinct positive messages are posted. We want quantity, not quality. Thank you in advance for your support and engagement on this important issue. We love you and appreciate everything you do. Exclamation point. The Red Rock Steak Presidency so Hey John. So I think that that that's the rest of the story. Oh, no, it's okay. We just have names, you know, in between so we know when we're up. But yeah, this is really, really remarkable. I want to hear what your comments are. I'm not so much surprised about the church trying to rally its membership to show this public support to try and get this passed on April 9th, but I am shocked that the law firm that Represents the church has been making such sizable donations to the election campaigns of so many members of the Las Vegas City Council who as we saw in the video, had a one and done passing of the change of the definition for civic zoning. I don't know how many of them knew that this was the first step in this process. I know the church did, I know the law firm did. But beyond that I can't say anything except for the fact it looks like they all took the money and among them, they voted the way they were supposed to. What do you think, Rebecca?

Neighborhood Group Voices Out Against Lone Mountain Temple Zoning Change

First, What Happens Next for the Temple?

Easter support for the Lone Mountain Temple

Nevada temple battle: The Mormon lobby

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:02:42] I will say that just this morning as I'm working with these residents, we learned that there are some LDS owned companies that also made donations to the city council, which we have, you know, the receipts on that. And they are companies, let's say in the construction industry that would be able to not saying that they will, but participate in the building. They're the kind of companies that you would hire if you were building a temple. So they're starting to look into that. But again, the word playbook is the word that we all need to pay attention to. I've been covering my co host Landon and I, the Cody, Wyoming Temple and the Heber Valley Temple. Of course there are nuances in each situation, but the playbook is the same. And in this case they really have pulled the curtain back on the playbook. I've been really surprised at the trail that's kind of been left for people to follow. It's, you know, it's, it's harder in Cody, it's harder in Heber, but here you can really see it. And, and again, I have to make it clear to everybody that these residents, all of them, would welcome a temple in their vicinity if the temple could be built somewhere where they didn't have to go through all these steps to sort of secretively change the zoning codes. There are plenty of locations where it would be just fine. All the residents that my co host and I work with in Heber and in Cody and now in Lone Mountain in Vegas area, they' all churchgoing folk. They have their own denominations. They are not anti Mormon. They are simply saying, please obey the laws of the land. Let's work together. In fact, it's funny to see the residents in Cody and Heburn, when we started working with them very early on, they both said, well, we go to church, we have our own church. This is a church. I'm sure that we can sort of work it out. And as the months progressed and there were threats of lawsuits and there were all kinds of tactics. All the residents in these groups now say, this is not a church. What is this? What is this that we're up against? And I see now in Lone Mountain, they didn't make that mistake right away. They knew what they were up against. And you can see that they've mobilized very quickly and they've got the receipts on a lot of things. So it's. It will be fascinating to watch this. And again, all they're asking is please obey the laws of the land. Please don't try to slip through through things through in these zoning meetings. It's funny that they're asking everybody to go out and support this bill. There's nothing in any of these zoning changes that say temple. Right? But that's the end goal. Those things need to be put in place so the temple can be built. So right there they've tipped their hand. It's just a random zone. What, you know, zoning ordinance, what could it mean? Well, it means the temple's coming. So it's fascinating to watch. But Lone Mountain is different from the other two because I think they've really pulled the curtain back on what they're doing.

Radio Free Mormon [01:05:22] I would have been surprised if the church did not have a line or a plan in place to make sure that this temple was going to be able to be built there before they bought the site back in 2022. John Dehlin, what are your thoughts?

Bill Maher on the Mormon Temple Push

John Dehlin [01:05:39] Wow, I have so many great report rfm. The first thing I have to say, and I don't mean to be a curmudgeon, is I've always felt, even as a devout, faithful Mormon, that Mormon temple work for the dead was a colossal waste of time, money and resources that, as Jesus said, I think, you know, evil, the evil of the day, is sufficient thereof. There's so much poverty and illiteracy and famine and natural disaster. I just can't believe in 2024 so many tens of thousands, hundreds of hundreds of thousands of devout Mormon spend their time doing dead ordinances for dead people, baptisms and endowments and temple ceilings. Not to be religiously bigoted, but I just have to always call attention to the huge, colossal waste of time. This is when there's so much suffering and pain and difficulty in the world. I want to call everyone's attention just really quickly to the twelfth article of faith. You know, we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law.

Radio Free Mormon [01:06:49] Blah.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] That's the Mormon Church's own article of faith. I'm, you know, I'M torn a little bit because it seems like they're working within the laws and the process of, I don't know, donating money to political candidates and changing the law, you know, but at the same time, this whole thing feels very disrespectful. It feels tone deaf. It feels just disrespectful in a way that I don't think Christ would want. But, but, you know, the church is super rich and it's super powerful. And I won't be the first person, you know, to invoke this quote. I don't think. You know, and the quote is, you can buy anything in this world for money. Here's a T shirt that's sort of conveying that point. The truth is the church has almost infinite power and money these days, and so it can kind of do what it wants. But I just want to remind the church, the Mormon Church, as someone who tries to give the church good advice, whether they accept it or not, that this is the type of power play that the Mormon Church exhibited in places like Missouri and in places like Illinois. And these sorts of power plays don't tend to play out well. They don't ingratiate you with the host populations. They often lead to backlash. And I just want to predict that someday this Russell M. Nelson flex of building a gazillion temples in a gazillion cities is going to backfire in the church, whether it's financially, whether it's through members not wanting to work in these things or attend them, or whether it's just public outcry and backlash. I just, I think the church is making a huge strategic error in favor of Russell M. Nelson's ego. And, you know, so that's, that's what I have to say about that.

Radio Free Mormon [01:08:53] Let me go ahead and put it on the record then, that if, as I suspect, but I don't know if as, as I suspect this law firm is not donating their. Donating their own money to the reelection campaigns for these different city council people. But this is actually church money. Money put into their trust account and then checks written to them using church money. If that's correct, and maybe even if it's not, I would go further and I would say this looks to be corrupt as f. Bill, what do you think?

Bill Reel [01:09:28] Two things. First, how many times has this been the playbook

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:09:37] before?

Bill Reel [01:09:37] How many times have they gone in and built temples, taken over land, done deals? In fact, there was the story maybe a year or two ago with the, with the temple top being too tall and the city was fighting it and there was. What ended up happening was the church reached out and said, we'll take you guys to court and we'll take as much time doing that as possible and hence your public funds will be drained and we've got all the money in the world to do do this. So if that's the case, that's quite a heavy threat over a, a public domain, a government entity to be able to tie themselves up in court with a local government for an extended period of time. How many times has the church either a bribed people sort of. Right. And, and the fact is you put it rfm that you don't want to put your own name on it, you send it to your law firm and then they make the payment tells you that you want to keep your name hidden from who paid who.

Radio Free Mormon [01:10:35] And it is a question at this point, just to be clear on that, but go ahead.

Bill Reel [01:10:38] Yes, that's why they sort of looks like. So how many times have they done this before? So there's my first question. My second one is the first payment happens in 2021, sometime before the revelation occurs. So to the believer out there, I just want to say this, this is a, if this is a, a piece of evidence that shows you that revelation really doesn't work in the LDS Church. Because if President Nelson really went to God and said, God, where should I build a temple? And God said, I want you to do it at that spot of land in Vegas, then you don't have to go to the government and make sure that you can get that land first, make sure that you can procure that piece of land. And if it fails, you have to pick a new place. Then what you've essentially said is that God is unable to tell President Nelson where exactly to build a temple. Revelation is dead.

Radio Free Mormon [01:11:35] Yeah. I think that the bottom line on this, and perhaps the most, the kindest thing I can say is that the, the Mormon Church is not a good neighbor.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:11:47] Well, and if I could just add to that, since I've been to Cody, Mormon aren't there. I've been to Cody and I spent a lot of time in Heber. I'm probably going to go to Vegas. But the toll on the community as far as the divide that it has created, it's irreparable. I think the town is. Both towns are ripped apart as far as neighbor against neighbor. They just can't. They just don't see what it's doing to the town. And I know the members think as soon as the Temple is built and they have voiced this. Everyone will understand. Everyone will understand what a blessing it is to the community. And of course, the residents we're working with are going, no, it's a private club. Not even most of your members can get in. You know, I understand they believe that. They believe it's a blessing, but it is torn these towns apart. It's really sad.

Radio Free Mormon [01:12:39] Yeah, that blessing language comes up a lot. And all it is is words, words, words. There's nothing about a temple being in a neighborhood like this that's going to be a blessing to anybody there who's not a member of the church. In fact, it's going to be the opposite. It's going to be lightening up the sky so that they can't see the stars the way they used to. There's going to be all this light pollution, plus a huge increase in traffic caused not only by the temple but also by the stake center. So this nice community is going to get a huge uptick in traffic as well as light and probably noise pollution as well.

Bill Reel [01:13:14] Well, do you know, do you know if the council, the ward that didn't get $10,000 was the council person who was absent for the voting?

Radio Free Mormon [01:13:24] We do know. And it wasn't. It wasn't the person who got up and left. It was creer, I think c and left during that part of the voting and came back a little bit later. I don't know if this guy had

Guest 2 [01:13:36] to go to the.

Radio Free Mormon [01:13:36] The head or what or got a call or something. It was very much, much pro forma. So, you know, he could probably just leave and know it was going to get passed. But he did get a ten thousand dollar donation.

Bill Reel [01:13:47] Gotcha. Thank you. Thank you, RFM for the story. Thank you, Rebecca, for also doing work on that. Appreciate it. Anything else on that story before we move on to David Archuleta?

Radio Free Mormon [01:13:58] No.

Bill Reel [01:13:58] Okay. John Dehlin, take us home.

David Archuleta's I'm An Ex-Mormon Song

John Dehlin [01:14:01] All right. Well, this has all been so great. So. Yeah. So recently, for those who haven't been sort of on Instagram or YouTube or TikTok, David Archuleta, the American idol runner up, active, faithful mormon for many years who came out as gay a year or two ago, has recently come out with a song called is it Hell together? Is that what the song's called? Yeah. And it kind of took the Mormon Internet Internet, the ex Mormon Internet by storm, and even the fundamentalist Mormon Internet by storm. And it began with him releasing a teaser sort of playing off the I'm an ex Mormon trend on TikTok. So David Bill, if it's okay, let's go ahead and start by playing that video clip for those who didn't see it.

Guest 3 [01:15:04] I'm an ex Mormon, of course I'm experiencing things as an adult that most people experienced in junior high and high school. I'm an ex Mormon, of course I'm a lightweight when it comes to drinking alcohol. I'm an ex Mormon, of course one cup of coffee makes my body freak out and gives me the jitters. I'm an ex Mormon, of course I was a 30 year old virgin. Was. I'm an ex Mormon, of course it feels freeing to be able to wear tank tops again. I'm an ex Mormon. Of course I'm catching up on all the swear words like oh and I'm an ex Mormon. Of course I hid while I went to the Book of Mormon musical because I was afraid of anyone seeing me cease watch something that was inappropriate. I'm an ex Mormon, of course I'm going to write a song about how hard it is to walk away from your faith when you believed all your life that it was the absolute truth that was the deciding factor of every decision if you made. And it's called Hell Together and It's coming out March 20th

John Dehlin [01:16:01] now. I really want to be able to play that song, but in the past, whenever I've played copyrighted material, especially on a live stream, YouTube gives you a strike and it threatens to cancel your your program and it demonetizes your videos, which you know is a good for sustainability. So I do want to recommend that you all watch it. I'm gonna go ahead and let's go ahead and put the slide up that shows the song there. It's on Spotify. I. I have the the Red Arrow of Truth noting that it's got 164,000 views. I. I'm surprised at that number, honestly. It's such a good song. I would have guessed that it would have way more views by now. So I want to encourage everyone to go check it out and play it a gazillion times because the more the song gets played, I think the more that hopefully it gets promoted elsewhere. But it's a phenomenal song. I want to go ahead. There's a little bit of background to the song. It's basically about a conversation David had with his mom, Lupe Bartholomew, you and it basically chronicles when David came out to his mom and we were fortunate enough on Mormon Stories to be able to have David's mom on Mormon Stories. She's a lovely, lovely woman and just Just to show you. To give you a sense for how lovely she is. And we're going to contrast how lovely she is with some comments made by Jacob Hansen of a thoughtful faith. YouTube Later, I want to just play a very brief clip. Clip of Lupe Bartholomew just to give you a sense for how she dealt with. With David coming out to her. So, Bill, I don't know if you can play that video really quick.

Guest [01:18:00] He. I remember him on the phone with me patiently trying to explain his situation.

John Dehlin [01:18:13] Can you remember what he says?

Guest [01:18:14] I was having a hard time. He. He introduced me to a book with Charlie Bird, behind the Mass or something. I think it's called behind under the Mass or Charlie Bird's Book. And I. I think he slowly was trying to.

John Dehlin [01:18:39] Without the mask coming out and coming into God's light.

Guest [01:18:43] He gave me that book for me to read, and I ate that book. I just read it from front to back, and I was just, wow, this is such a wonderful young man. Lgbt. You still can be LGBT and love God. I was still kind of like. Like, trying to put my thoughts together because I thought, what, LGBT can love God, too, and love the commandments? So that was something new to me. So that book open started to open my heart to LGBT people. So he will have that conversation on the phone, very patiently trying to explain. That maybe he will just be an angel in heaven that he, you know, because he couldn't get married in the temple, you know, the church, the family of proclamation doesn't allow that. You know, this marriage is between a man and a woman. And so he was just trying to. Teach me the world of gays and queer. And, you know, introduced me to that world because to me, that was new. It was hard for me to accept it, but I told him, I love you no matter what. And we're still. Our family is still a family forever family, no matter what.

John Dehlin [01:20:31] And I have to say, I'm. I. I was just so moved and so touched by Lupe and. And I really wanted to play that clip because we're gonna play some of the Mormon reactions, not just to the David and to the song, but to David's mom's support of David. And unless you get a sense for how lovely she is, you. You really. You know, I don't think it'll be as meaningful to see kind of the orthodox Mormon reactions to it, but I thought I would just read a few of the lyrics because I think it's. It's really powerful. He basically says, bow your head. Don't be bold. This Is the church speaking in a song? Bow your head, don't be bold? You'll survive by doing what you're told. Said love is earned and we can't choose. But the more you grow know the more you know the truth. And then this is switching to David's voice. And all I want is to make you proud. If I would run, would I let you down? Meaning run from the church. And then David says, you said meaning to Lupe. He's singing this. What? What? Lupe. His mom's reaction was Tim coming out. This is Lupe's voice. And this is the chorus. If I have to live without you I don't want to live forever in someone else's heaven. So let them close the gates. Oh, if they don't like the way you're made then they're not any better. If paradise is pressure, oh, we'll go to hell together. And then the second verse is David saying, you and me, that's all we need. Blood is thicker than the pages that they read. I'm afraid of letting go of the version of me that I used to know. Crying tears in Sunday crowds Took my hand and we walked out. And then again the chorus, David's mom, you said, if I have to live without you I don't want to live forever in someone else's heaven. So let them close the gates. Oh, if they don't like the way you're made then they're not any better. If paradise is pressure we'll go to hell together. And then the. And then the bridge is what's it doing for you when it's in the way? Meaning the church. What's it doing for you when it's in the way? Hallelujah. Wish we knew it sooner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Walking out with grace. What a beautiful. What a beautiful set of lyrics. Hopefully those of you who are still believing Mormon can at least least appreciate the art and the poetry of just how David and his mom are feeling and how David is feeling. So beautiful song. I wish we could play it. I thought we would share just a little bit of. Of the reactions to it. This is Charlie Bird, the guy we've covered before on Mormon Stories and elsewhere. He was Cosmo the Cougar. He is an active, faithful, currently attending Mormon. He and his husband Ryan have been married civilly and. And this week, Charlie. Mr. Charlie Bird on Instagram came out in favor of David Archuleta's song. And he wrote, listen to this song on repeat for about an hour. Today. Feeling so many emotions, man. Some of those lines hit deep, deep, quote if paradise is pressure and quote I'm afraid of letting go of the version of me I used to know, Charlie says real honest, gutted me and then he writes at the bottom. Also, for anyone who listens and feels uncomfortable, I hope he'll use that discomfort as an opportunity to learn and grow empathy. I think he's done something really special here, captured very real pain and turned it into cathartic art. And I just want to say congratulations to Charlie Bird for using his voice, for using his platform, for using his privilege to speak out to support Charlie as a faithful, active member of the church with the with a very large following. Last time I checked, I think Charlie had like three times the Instagram following Mormon Stories podcast does. Now Instagram is not our main platform, but thank you Charlie for using your voice and your privilege to speak out as a faithful member with influence. I also want to share, you know, some other comments that were made. Some of you who attended the Mormon Temple, I don't know between like 2012ish to 2014 or 15 will recognize this face. This is Corbin Allred. He played Lucifer in sort of the reboot of the Mormon Temple video or the temple ceremony. He writes, well handled. A quick message to anyone in the church who shares the sensibilities of the person who said this until you stopped sharing the true story of your life, the good and the bad, the ups and the downs. Your conversion story, your testimony. Please don't demand it of others. I know it's ingrained to feel victimized when people leave the church behind and share why, but don't. Don't be confident in your faith. It's hypocritical to be all too anxious to hear stories of conversion into the church, then demands silence. When it comes to hearing stories of conversion out of the church, you don't quote. Leave it alone. When it comes to the true story of your lives, please extend some grace and courtesy to everyone else to do the same. Well said, Corbin Allred. I hope we see you on one of our podcasts or all of our podcasts sometime in the near future future. Other Comments made Mindy Gledhill writes this song. The story and the message are fire. I'm a big fan of Uncertainly Carly. She writes it's so beautiful. Sal from Mormon no More writes her thanks and what I thought was really powerful was to see Lindsey Sterling, the famous Mormon performing artist, the violinist, the dancer. She comments on David Archuleta's post. So many people love and support you David, your message is so important. And then David responds, thank you, Lindsay. And it gets even better. David releases an Instagram video where he's playing this song. He's releasing this song to three friends of his. Lindsey Sterling, Anthony Gargula. Does anyone know how to pronounce that name? Yeah, it shows how old and, and boomer we all are. And then Jonathan Tilken. And if any of you are like me and don't know who these people are, okay, there's David archuleta. He's got 551,000 followers on Instagram. There's Lindsey Sterling with 3.7 million followers on Instagram. And then there's Anthony Gargula with 927,000 followers on Instagram. And then Jonathan Tilkin with 1 million followers on Instagram. And if you just kind of do the math, if you do the math, that's 6.2 million young people who are associating bigotry with the Mormon Church. And I just went ahead and grabbed the screenshots of, of the people listening to, to David play a song. There's Anthony, and you can see just how stunned he is by the song and by the story and by David Archuleta's lyrics. Here's Lindsey sterling with her 3 or 4 million followers. She's crying. She's literally like holding out her arm to show the goosebumps and the hair raising on her arms. This was so courageous of her. And there she is just crying and loving and showing her support, you know, with David. So, you know, this is a, this is a, this is a watershed moment. Like every once in a while there's like the November 15th policy or the excommunication of, of, you know, the ordained Kate Kelly, the ordained women, or Jeremy Runnels and the CES letter. This is potentially one of those watershed moments where tens of thousands, if not more Mormon in the future are going to say that that was the moment, moment that I started questioning and, or left the church was when David Archuleta came out as gay, came out with this song. Lindsay, Lindsey, you know, Sterling. And is that, is that the name? Did I get that right? And all of these other influencers started sharing David's song. And I'll just add, what I think is going to also accelerate people's disaffection is the reaction from fundamentalist Mormon to David Archuleta's coming out into his video. And, you know, for those of you who hate the Mormon Church and want to see it, you know, unravel, you should be a Huge supporter and fan of Jacob Hansen and the thoughtful faith podcast of Ward Radio, you know, former Midnight Mormon YouTube channel with Corbin and is that his name? And Kwaku. These guys are harming the church. And what I want to do now is just play a brief clip of. Of Jacob Hansen commenting on not. Not just David Archuleta's video, but also Lupe, his mom's reaction and if he even throws Lindsay Sterling in here. So let's go ahead and play the clip.

Charlie Bird Supports David Archuleta's "If Paradise Is Pressure

"Don't Be Confident in Your Faith"

David Archuleta Comes Out As Gay, Thanks to Lindsey Sterling

David Archuleta's Mother's Leaving the Mormon Church

Guest 2 [01:30:31] Recently he decided to use his leaving of the church as a chance to get his music career going again by creating and promoting a new song called Hell Together, which celebrates his mother's decision to leave the church and her telling him that she would rather be in Hell together with him than to be part of a church that doesn't make him feel welcome. Needless to say, even many members, like the well known violinist Lindsey Stirling, are praising the move of his mother to abandon her covenants as an act of heroic motherly love. But the reality is that David and his mother and those cheering them on simply do not understand our doctrine on multiple levels. Jesus Christ addressed this issue directly in one of his most shocking sayings. He that loveth his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. And he that loveth his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross and followeth after me is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it. And he that loseth his life for my sake sake shall find it. Yikes. Why would he say something like this? Does Christ really expect us to choose him and his gospel, even if that means sacrificing not only our own sexuality, but even our own family? Well, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:10] And you know, I, I'm loathe to even share a clip from Ward radio or Jacob Hansen, except for the fact that these men, I think are single handedly destroying the Mormon Church in 2024. And I honestly, if I had a goal, it would be for the Mormon Church to stand sort of to reach out to these gentlemen and to ask them to stop. Because I think they're doing harm not just to the church, but to so many members of the church and to so many vulnerable, vulnerable people. So I'm not gonna lie. I do think it's in the church's best interest to shut them down. The church knows how to shut people down. As I'm a witness, as Bill is a witness, as others are a witness, and you know, I just want to see Less people harmed. I don't want to see the church destroyed per se, but I do want the church to do less harm. So that's why I platform these individuals. Let's go ahead and can share some of the other clips that. And we'll do this pretty quickly. The. The. I'll just call it the fundamentalist Mormon Internet kind of has lost his mind. Lost its mind on Twitter and elsewhere. So I'm just going to play a bunch of. Of people's quotes and maybe we'll just take turns. Rfm why don't you read this first one?

Radio Free Mormon [01:33:36] David, walk away if you must. That's your prerogative. Negative. And that's okay, but can't you walk away quietly? Two exclamation points and three question marks. What is it that you think you have to announce to the world that you're leaving the church? Just leave. I don't get it. Please explain.

John Dehlin [01:33:58] All right, so shut up and go away quietly. Bill, why don't you read some of. Some of the. Some of the quotes, some of the tweets on the screen?

Bill Reel [01:34:07] You are trash. I urge you to repent. It's amazing how quickly people who leave the church forget the doctrine of the gospel. It's never too late to repent. Renounce your sins and return to Christ. It's pretty obvious you're miserable. Let me see if I can see past that there.

John Dehlin [01:34:25] Maybe.

Bill Reel [01:34:26] Maybe it's time. Camille, that's actually. That actually makes me sad. Sad, sad, sad. Says two other people.

John Dehlin [01:34:34] Yeah, these are these. And these are. These are tweets that David himself re. Shared. Rebecca, why don't you. Why don't you take your turn?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:34:42] Yeah, I'm not gonna be able to do those. Sorry, My screen is like that big, so. No, not gonna help.

Ex-Mormon Gay Voices Read My Ranting

John Dehlin [01:34:47] Okay, I'll read it.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:34:48] Go ahead and read them.

John Dehlin [01:34:49] John Moroni power writes, why are you gay? White dude writes, repent and return to Christ. He will welcome you with open arms. Liam writes, when you're done acting out and those using you are gone, please come back to the faith. We will be here. These are faithful fundamentalist orthodox members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Aaron Palmer writes, man, I hope you find your way to some sort of peace, joy, and calm in your life. You don't look happy. Wish you well. Stone cut without hands. Writes, you were better before. I hope you'll be better again. FRGTR writes, it makes me feel so sad for him.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:35:27] Him.

John Dehlin [01:35:27] The great and spacious building seems so cool and popular and fun, but it is not where lasting peace is rfm. You want to continue?

Radio Free Mormon [01:35:38] Yeah. So lame. First of all, the dumb sign thing. Oh, the sign. He was holding hell together. The dumb sign thing is like four years ago. You are not cutting edge. Also, the song premise is silly. Grow up. Intellectual immature. Displayed here a little self referential. Nick Newman. Newman says, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to read it through that emoji.

John Dehlin [01:36:04] Right. Go ahead and go to the top. Right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:36:06] Okay. He was statistically more likely to be happier in the church, even if he is gay. Oh my Lord, they're doing this the statistics ruse again. John says so. Oh, you weren't ever a Christian after all. That's patriotic.

Guest 3 [01:36:23] John.

Radio Free Mormon [01:36:23] Jedi Master Valhalla says, can you make one about walking the covenant path? Has a great ring to it.

John Dehlin [01:36:31] And I just want to note just the lack of compassion, the lack of empathy, the lack of kindness and charity that these orthodox believing faithful, likely temple recommend Mormon are exhibiting. Bill, do you want to keep going?

Bill Reel [01:36:48] Sure. Son of Zion, you can always repent and come back. God wants you among his faithful in his church. Let the power of Christ's atonement cleanse you of your sins as you work with him to put off the natural man and live his commandments. You can only find eternal lasting joy with Jesus Christ. Carrie Northrup says, all our religion asks is for dudes to stay out of other dudes butts. And some people can't even do that. LM says, imagine going from serving Christ on a mission to turning your back on him and now making light of the mist of darkness. He's now serving the world. No interest in following him, listening to him or supporting him. And Zombie Conquer says, oof. Letting your sexuality completely dominate your life is unfortunate. The LGBQ virus is real.

Guest 2 [01:37:40] Real.

John Dehlin [01:37:43] Yeah. Here's another one. Rebecca, can you.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:37:45] I can read this one. Yes. Rebecca, I actually pulled this quote today. And then John's like, wait, I already have that in the slideshow. So it says pardon me while I suppress a yawn. I have lost track of the number of ex Mormon homosexuals I've met. None of them have an original story. It's like listening to an inverted testimony meeting comprised entirely of animatronics. All saying the same words in different voices, but identical inflection and emotion. Very tedious.

Radio Free Mormon [01:38:11] It's like General Conference.

Bill Reel [01:38:15] By the way, aren't these guys all listening to David Alexander, who also doesn't have an original story?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:38:20] Yeah, that's it.

John Dehlin [01:38:22] Here's another one. Sick. He even looks Different. He looks uglier. But why does he have to go on and brag about it and make it out like that is so cool. I don't get it. Just lived your life like you want to live your life and not have people judge you you and just live and let live. Then why don't they do that? But him and his stupid mother, Lupe had to go on. She went on that Mormon stories. That possessed guy that used to be a councilman or bishop, etc, that has everybody tell their stories like that Janae Thompson. Who is that? Grant Thompson that lived across the street from us that was the king of random. You should hear her four hour rant on that Mormon. Mormon stories as well. So did Lupe. She went on this rant and all because her and his choices, nobody disregarded him. Everybody still loved him and still accepted him, even the church. But just because we don't agree with his lifestyle choices, the church still would not judge him. Because that's up to God and the people still love and accept him. But that's not enough. His mother had to go and completely take her name off the records of the church and throw. Let's see, where is it? Oh, and throw away her testimony and her membership and even say that she no longer even believes in God and Jesus. I guess that's because a true mother. I guess that's being a true mother. Whatever. He's had his five minutes of fame and now he can't stand it that he's not getting any more attention. So he's just got to keep doing more and more trying to get his attention still. I'm just sick of his face. I never could stand him. Even though that Amer. Even through that American Idol thing when dad was so obsessed, because we know his dad, Jeff, and I literally can't stand his dad Jeff, and never have. And I've even gotten in a fight with him recently, with him coming to our office because he's always been this huge taker and dad has given that family so much money and help. And Jeff is just always been a taker, an abuser of our friendship. And I finally had it out with him and I just can't stand the entire family. I'm just so sick of them all, you know, and these just go on and on and on. I'm not gonna play them all, only to just make a few final points.

David Archuleta's "A True Mother" Song

Radio Free Mormon [01:40:53] John, John, who wrote that last one? Was that James Joyce or William Faulkner or somebody? It's like total stream of consciousness.

Bill Reel [01:40:59] He ought to get kudos though. He listened to four hours, right. Of Morphe stories. He listened to the the from episode one to like episode four.

Radio Free Mormon [01:41:06] He knows it used to be a bishop or something.

John Dehlin [01:41:08] That's dangerous. They need to cut that out or they're gonna, they're gonna end up like us.

Bill Reel [01:41:13] He self admits he listened to the whole thing.

John Dehlin [01:41:16] I know. So before I give a couple final points, I'd love to hear each of you just give your reactions if, if there's anything, let's say. Rebecca, why don't you start?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:41:25] You know, when I first listened to that song, I instantly thought of the quote by Joseph Smith in let's see, I even have it here in the Joseph Smith history of the church where he's talk among the company of his friends and the saints and he says, and this is just kind of the end of it and if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of the doors and make a heaven of it. He basically said exactly what David Archuleta is saying. And I have to say from a mother's perspective, a mother who had a similar experience with my oldest child who could no longer attend church even when I was still in because of just extreme anxiety and bishop's interviews and he was having panic attacks. And I instantly looked at him even as a TBM and said, oh no, you don't have to go any. I mean I chose my child over the church. I completely understand that concept. And that's what his mother's did. And this song is a tribute to his mother and to any of the rest of us, anyone who makes the choice of loving a person over an institution. So this is a very powerful song and I agree with what you said. This is going to be such a wonderful, you know, just kind of rally cry for people who are experiencing that. And also, also a tribute to everybody who is supportive of for whatever reason someone leaves or whatever they're going through. So I love the song personally.

John Dehlin [01:42:44] Thanks, Rebecca.

Radio Free Mormon [01:42:45] RFM why are they so threatened? What is it about this situation that makes now it's obviously not all Mormon, just certain Mormon that we apparently are numerous. But what are they so threatened of? Is it the fact that he is popular and people might listen to him or listen to his mother? And even if you're threatened, it's not the best look to have that manifest itself in this kind of judgmental tirades. It doesn't make the church look good, it doesn't make you look good. It makes David and his mother look better, at least from my point of View of view, and I think the point of view of pretty much everybody who's not them. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:36] Thanks, RFM Bill.

Bill Reel [01:43:40] I listened to the song. Great lyrics, enjoyed listening to it. It also reminded me of Tyler Glenn's Trash, released several years ago. And I went back and listened to that. And I really enjoy just the style of music that that is. But it's sort of been a long time since folks have been sort of been reminded about that music. But I think musical artists are often traumatized in some way. It's what sort of gives them that creative story to tell. And if the church keeps behaving the way it does and it doesn't find a way to include people it thinks, okay, who, David Archulet. Okay, that's behind this. Well, in a couple more years, it's going to be the next person, and then a few more years will be the next person. And so it's just one more angle, which is, as people listen to artists express sort of the things in society that can't normally be said, you're going to have ex Mormon artists continually reminding the general public that Mormonism just isn't a healthy institution. Nobody's writing anti Methodist music music. Nobody's doing that. There are certain religions that tend to create these sort of artists and these sort of lyrics. And Mormonism can either shift and change or deal with the next David Archuleta in three or four years.

Radio Free Mormon [01:45:03] Yeah. And one of the things that I, I sense is motivating these detractors is they're upset with David and his mother because they are not willing to go along with the fake stories that everybody's supposed to go along with in the church about LGBTQ people, that they are accepted, they're welcomed, they're on an even footing. I mean, I have never. I don't know of any other church where power and authority is given to LGBTQ people quite as much as in the LDS Church. To paraphrase a recent statement by Sister Dennis. You know, everybody knows what the truth is, is everybody knows it's a lie. Okay? Let's just call it what it is. It's a lie. This whole story about how gay people, trans people in that community are treated in the LDS Church. They are not treated as equals. You have to change who you are and behave like you're straight in order to fit in this church. That's the truth. But. But the lie is, no, you're just as equal as everybody else. You're welcome. And I think members get upset when people like David and his mom And God bless her, say, no, we're not going to go along with that story. Because that's not the way that I think about my son. I love my son more than I love the church. And that statement alone is power, powerful. And I think that more parents should emulate David Archuleta's mom.

Jacob Hansen: If Your Parents Don't Want You to Follow Me

John Dehlin [01:46:39] What do you all make? I think we all have. Maybe some of us identify as Christians on this panel, maybe not. I know that we have dear friends who identify as Christians. What do you all make of Jesus's quote that. That parents should choose Jesus over their kid? Geologists just think Jesus was wrong in that point. Do you interpret it a different way? Do any of you have a comment? Because Jacob quoting Jesus, like he really thinks that's what Jesus wants parents of LGBT Mormon youth to do is to choose Jesus over their kids. What do y' all think of that argument?

Radio Free Mormon [01:47:15] Well, no, he wants to conflate without saying he's conflating Jesus with the Mormon Church. That's what. That's the unstated part of his argument. Second thing is, I got no idea what Jesus said or what he didn't say. I really doubt that he said most of the things that are attributed to him. Matthew is written at least 30, 40 years after he died, okay? And there were sayings and that were circulating that got put in to the Gospels. But I would suggest to you that the person who came up with that saying, whether it was Jesus or one of his followers and attributed it to Jesus, did it from the point of view, view of exclusivism. It's the same thing as John 14:6, where Jesus is represented as saying, I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me. And here you've got Jesus in Matthew who's saying something similar, which is, if your parents don't want you to follow me, then you should follow me and say, screw your parents. If your kids don't want you to follow me, then you should follow me and say, screw your kids. It's this kind of exclusivism that frankly, is pretty ugly when you hear it coming out of the mouths of Mormon such as Jacob Hansen against David Archuleta and his mom. That's my take.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:48:30] There was another quote in that video. I happened to just go right to it. Then I couldn't watch anymore the Jacob Hanson video. But he literally said that our family members and those we love should be second. Second in our consideration. First is the next life, right? Some of the most harmful doctrine there is that you should put everything on hold here, that you should turn against your natural impulses to maternal, paternal, to love your children for the next life. It's a very harmful doctrine. It's that tough love, right? We have to kick our LGBTQ child out now because maybe they'll return and then we'll save their soul. And that's just one example. There are many examples like that. And. And it's such a harmful idea that you can't love and be authentic here in this life with friends, family, anybody that you love and appreciate. It's all for the next life. That. That's secondary. First is the next life. It's a very harmful concept.

Radio Free Mormon [01:49:25] And as with so many sayings of Jesus, it contradicts other things like honor your father and your mother. It's the fifth commandment, I think. And whereas. Whereas, you know, non Mormon Christians might say, well, that's Old Testament stuff, not New Testament. Mormon have to deal with it more because Abinadi quotes it in the Book of Mosiah in the Book of Mormon. Also, the idea of love your neighbor as yourself because you cannot. Is it Matthew? I think it's Matthew 25, the parable of the sheep and the goats. Right. You are judged based upon how you treat other people, even strangers. Okay. That you have to be good to them and you have to be kind to them. You have to visit the ones who imprison, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, all these kinds of things. And if you do that, you are doing it unto Jesus, and that is what you are judged upon. And if you do all those things, then you're on the right hand of God when he comes again to judge with the sheep. If you don't, you're on the left hand with the goats. So there's. Let me just say that it is the Bible, and the standard works are not univocal on this position. And it would be probably healthier to include those other contrary statements in any discussion where you're talking about the statement that Jacob Hansen is favoring.

Bill Reel [01:50:44] Yeah, I think that's the secret is that religious zealots always have the ability to pick and choose which scriptures they want to stand behind. Rfm, as you mentioned, the Gospel writers come quite late. Mark is 40 or 50 years after. Matthew and Luke seem to be somewhere between 70 and 80 years after. And I think John's 110 years or so after the life of Christ. These are men, whoever these authors are, that's not. It's not who we think they are. It's not the story we tell. They are generations removed from the death and resurrection allegedly of Jesus Christ. Religious systems are always trying to make people choose them over friends, families, other human connections, religious institutions. Their job are to keep certain people in authority and to keep all of us following the rules that allow that system to continually perpetuate itself. And so systems are always trying to get you to pick it over your mom, pick it over your son, pick it over your brother. You don't have to fall for that. You can choose to care about the people who care about you and not perpetuate the virus that often religious is trying to get you to be which is just a carrier.

John Dehlin [01:52:02] Powerful. I'll just add a couple quick, just a couple quick things. I thought I would add one quote from the scriptures. This is from the Bible, this is from Matthew 18:6. If anyone causes one of these little ones, those who believe in me, to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. So there's at least one Jesus quote we can use to counter sort of those more bigoted quotes that sometimes fundamentalist Christians like to quote. I do want to make the point that, you know, one of the benefits according to the Mormon Church of modern revelation is that with the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants and with modern revelation with those two things, we have pure scripture that came directly from God to his prophets to us in Scripture without any alleged Catholic monks or kings perverting the word of God. And for those of you who haven't studied it, I just want to give you a pop quiz. How much does the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price deal with the issue of homosexuality, of being gay or lesbian? How many words or verses are dedicated to that specific topic? And the answer is zero. 0times does the Book of Mormon mention homosexuality? 0times Did Joseph Smith mention it? 0times Is it in the Doctrine and Covenants? And you would think if this was something worth, worth ostracizing and disowning your kid over, you think that at least it would have been mentioned once in modern day scriptures and it's not. I'll just end with one final set of thoughts. I don't love the quote. You know, there's no hate like Christian love because I have a lot of Christian friends that are amazing. So I'll adapt it to say there's no hate like fundamentalist Christian love. And I would add Mormon love, fundamentalist Mormon love there. I'm going to add my understanding of the psychology research, which is from the Family Acceptance Project. This is Caitlyn Ryan's work out of San Francisco State University. When religious parents highly reject their children, their LGBT children, those children are three times more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior, three times more likely to engage in risky drug behavior, and up to 10 times more likely to attend attempt death by suicide. Family rejection is an extremely seriously bad and even deadly sort of behavior. And that's why I'm calling Jacob Hansen out and his cronies to tell them to stop encouraging parents to reject their children. Like it, like it seems he seems to be insinuating in his video. And the final point from points I'll make again is Jake Jacob Kwaku Cardan, people like you, you are not helping your church. The church is going to lose on this and lives might be lost. This issue is killing the Mormon church. So just stop. If you love the church, just stop. And then finally I'll just add, love is going to win in the end. And that's one thing that I think Jesus got right. And so I will add one final question quote as sort of a message of hope. This is a parent that wrote their kid I'm listening to Hell Together on repeat again. It's hitting me even harder after you and I talked about it. I'm so sorry. This is a believing, faithful Mormon parent, I believe, of a gay kid. I'm so sorry that I was not as strong and enlightened as David's mother was when you first had questions. I quite painfully remember feeling the initial sense of panic in my heart. Heart. I am owning my past thoughts and behavior and deeply apologize forever causing you to feel as though you had to let me down by leaving. I love you, son. Every version of you, past, present and future. May more Mormon parents be like this amazing parent is my secular prayer in the name of the Rebecca and the RFM and the Bill. Real amen.

Jacob Hansen: There's No Hate Like Mormon Love

Super Super Chats

Bill Reel [01:56:31] All right, folks, let me just put up before we end the show here, I just want to note some of the super super chats here. So Paracord Princess donated five bucks. There's something rotten in the state of

Radio Free Mormon [01:56:42] Denmark, state of Utah.

Bill Reel [01:56:44] Yeah, we've got badass peacemaker $2. Badass peaks maker threw another $2 at us. We've got a Christina Ward who donated 50 bucks. I shouldn't say donated, but gave 50 bucks bucks. And then a THDUSJ whoopee 9.99. Appreciate the super chats. And then the last one was Melissa Mons.

Radio Free Mormon [01:57:07] Did I mention to all of you before the show that all the donations tonight go to me today? I brought that up, didn't I?

Bill Reel [01:57:12] I don't. Yeah, and you keep saying donations. I don't know if super chats work that way, so I don't want to give the impression that, that that's the case. But do appreciate the folks who do do the super chats and the stickers and stuff. So appreciate it. Anything else, John, from you regarding that story? Anything else from you guys regarding.

John Dehlin [01:57:29] It's good to be back. Thanks for having me.

Bill Reel [01:57:31] You're very welcome. Glad to have you. Folks, this was the Mormon Newscast. You can find John Dehlin at Mormon Stories, Rebecca Biblioteca at the Mormonish podcast Radio Free Mormon. There's too many to name, but Radio Free Mormon, the Shakespeare Podcast. Brush up your Shakespeare.

Radio Free Mormon [01:57:49] Very good.

Bill Reel [01:57:50] The Mormon Sunday School, or also known as Radio Free Mormon Sunday School and Mormonism Live, where I co host with RFM. Folks, check out each of those YouTube channels and their podcast audio. Like and subscribe. Hope you're enjoying the Mormon Newscast. Please like and subscribe here as well and leave your comment down below so that we know that you're enjoying the show. And if you have any criticisms, unlike the LDS Church, we welcome those. Those two. Anything else from you guys? Otherwise we'll just say goodnight.

Radio Free Mormon [01:58:22] Good night everybody.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:58:23] Bye Bye.