Welcome and Guest Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's February 4, 2026, and for the first time in Mormon Stories history, we have an episode dedicated to the abduction, the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart. It's a story that hit the international news circuit in 2002 and, and Elizabeth Smart has been in and out of the news for about as long as Mormon Stories has been in existence.

John Dehlin [00:00:33] You know, she was kidnapped at age 14 in Salt Lake City as a young Mormon girl by a Mormon couple. And it's very much a Mormon story, but we've never covered it. So because Netflix has a brand new documentary out called Kidnapped, we decided that we were going to cover it. And the angle that we're going to cover it is how Mormon is the Elizabeth Smart story. In other words, her kidnapper, Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee, her kidnappers, I should say, were they believers in Mormonism? Were they influenced by Mormonism? Were they influenced by Joseph Smith? Was it a polygamy deal? Was he, you know, channeling Joseph Smith prophet vibes?

John Dehlin [00:01:20] You know, to what extent was the Elizabeth Smart story a Mormon story? That's going to be what we're going to be talking about today. Before we jump in, I want to thank everyone for joining us and ask if everyone wouldn't mind subscribing to this channel. We're only 3,000 away from hitting the 300,000 subscriber mark on YouTube. So if everyone who watches and listens to this will just subscribe on YouTube and, or on Spotify, we can break that 300,000 barrier, which really will be helpful, I think, in getting more guests to get really, really good, high profile guests. The more subscribers you have, the more interested they are in subscribing.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] So please subscribe. It also helps with the algorithms. Thanks to all our donors that make this possible. And. And without any further ado, we have a fantastic panel assembled today to talk about Elizabeth Smart and the documentary Kidnapped. We have back in studio, Alyssa Whitbeck. Hey, Alyssa.

Alyssa Alexander [00:02:25] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] Thanks so much for joining us.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:27] Thank you.

Alyssa Alexander [00:02:27] Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:28] And also you'll be leading today's discussion and you organize the flow and the slides. So thank you.

Alyssa Alexander [00:02:34] Yes, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] All right. Anything you want to say about you or, you know, your thoughts about today's episode?

Alyssa Alexander [00:02:40] Yeah, sure. I'm Alyssa. I'm a writer. My work focuses specifically on women within Mormonism. Just different angles about women's experiences there. So this story hits home in that way. And yeah, there's a lot to cover. It'll be good to get into it.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] All right, well, it's great to have you.

Alyssa Alexander [00:02:57] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:58] We also have back joining us again for the umpteenth time. Is that an official number? Samantha. We have Samantha Shelley from Zelpa the Shelf.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:07] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] Thanks for joining us.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:09] Yeah, I'm happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] Yeah, we can't really say we're excited to do an episode like this.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:14] Yeah, it's a good one, isn't it? But it has a. It has a strong. Has a strong ending, so.

John Dehlin [00:03:19] Yeah, you were. You got emotional, is that right?

Samantha Shelley [00:03:21] Oh, I sobbed at the end.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's good to have you, Samantha. And please, while you're subscribing to Mormon Stories, subscribe to Zelf on the Shelf. Is that fair?

Samantha Shelley [00:03:31] Yeah, guys, please. We are dropping subscribers lately.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] Yeah, YouTube's getting brutal.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:36] Yeah, I know, it really is.

John Dehlin [00:03:38] Yeah. Well, it's great to have you, Samantha. Samantha's also kind of a faith transitions slash life coach and she's helped a lot of people. So you can check out her services as well.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:49] Yeah, not even kind of just fully a coach.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] We're doing it for years. Anyway, check that out. Samantha Shelley. And we have a brand new face joining us today for our panel. Her name is Taylor Macy. Hey, Taylor.

Taylor Macy [00:04:06] Hi, John.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] Tell us about you. Like, what do you do? You're a brand new face. What's up with that?

Taylor Macy [00:04:10] My brand new face? Yeah, I, I am from Salt Lake and I work in the nonprofit sector and I'm really thrilled of the work about the work that I get to do. And I'm thrilled to get to be here today with you even covering something that is a little bit more on the morbid side. But I, I'm really excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] Yeah.

Taylor Macy [00:04:30] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:04:31] Taylor said she wouldn't come on until Mormon Stories got close to 300 subscribers.

Taylor Macy [00:04:35] I said, I refuse. I was one of the high profile guests, in fact. And I said, until there's 300,000, not

Alyssa Alexander [00:04:40] worth my time, only 3,000 away.

John Dehlin [00:04:44] Well, Taylor, it's great to have you. Hope you, hope to have you again and again.

Taylor Macy [00:04:47] Thank you. Likewise.

Elizabeth Smart Case as Mormon True Crime

John Dehlin [00:04:49] I, I did. I mentioned in the previous intro that got scrapped that this is really one of the sort of early modern Mormon true crime stories, you know, obviously have Mormon stories. The past few years we've covered Tim Ballard, Ruby Frankie, Jody Hildebrandt, Chad Dabel, and Lori Valo. I think this story very much fits alongside those in terms of it being not just Mormon crime and Mormon true crime, but Mormon True crime that has its roots in Joseph Smith, in Mormon doctrine, Mormon history, and in the founding of, of Mormonism. And so that's kind of what we're going to be exploring today is how Mormon, how Joseph Smith is the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping story. And so without any further ado, Alyssa, why don't we turn the time over to you and you can tell us where we go from here.

Alyssa Alexander [00:05:48] All right.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] And we also welcome our live stream viewers. We'll incorporate your questions and comments, especially if you're able to throw a super chat that helps us see them. And it also is partly how we pay all these wonderful panelists to be a part of what we're doing. So, Alyssa, take it away.

Alyssa Alexander [00:06:03] Okay, so the, the bulk of today is going to be going over the documentary. So we're going to be going a lot of chronological for how the documentary was covered, but we'll also be bringing in some other clips that Elizabeth has talked about other elements of Mormonism.

Alyssa Alexander [00:06:17] But I thought we'd just start off with just the basic facts of the case. I think most people probably. No. But just as a quick reminder, in 2002, June Elizabeth Smart, a 14 year old girl, was taken from her home. She lived in Federal Heights in Salt Lake City, a nice part of Salt Lake City. Very, very devout Mormon family.

Alyssa Alexander [00:06:39] Elizabeth played the harp. Just this very pure, very devout Mormon family. Her sister Mary Catherine, who was 9 at the time, was in her bed. So Elizabeth and Mary Catherine, they were asleep. A man comes into their room. He takes Elizabeth at knife point, says, you need to get out of your bed, come with me or I'll kill you. They sneak out of the house, go out the window and, and they disappear.

Alyssa Alexander [00:07:05] And we'll kind of dive more into, you know, how long she's gone, what that's all looking like in a little bit. But within the first like 48 hours, they received 40,000 tips. They pitched a $250,000 reward. The police thought they were going to find her really quickly just because this was such a rare scenario. But it just kind of kept exploding.

John Dehlin [00:07:27] Yeah. And just we should all jump in and provide commentary with each slide. But for those who don't know, Federal Heights is kind of near the University of Utah. It's kind of east of downtown Salt Lake City, northeast, east. It's a very wealthy part of Salt Lake City.

Alyssa Alexander [00:07:45] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] And it's kind of, it's right by not just University of Utah, but all those hospitals like Primary Children's and LDS Hospital, a lot of doctors and wealthy people and area Authorities and general authorities for the church live up in that Federal Heights area. Most of those kids go to East High School, which is where High School Musical was filmed.

Alyssa Alexander [00:08:08] Hey, we're 20 years for that, right?

John Dehlin [00:08:10] Yep. Yeah.

Taylor Macy [00:08:11] Do we need a rewatch party?

John Dehlin [00:08:12] Yeah. Yeah. For those who. Who saw my interviews with Lauren Matthias, this is the same neighborhood that Lauren Matthias grew up in from Hidden True Crime. Same high school she went to as well. And it's. I think it's in the same ward that Lauren Matthias grew up in and my cousin Brett Parkinson, who's a well known radiologist. Anyway. Yeah, so 2002 also was when the Winter Olympics came to Salt Lake City. So it was kind of.

Alyssa Alexander [00:08:41] And that would have been at the same time because that would have been in February.

John Dehlin [00:08:44] Yeah. So the Winter Olympics would have been. Right, I guess, right before this all happened, this, this kidnapping. So, yeah. Any other reflections? And I guess it. It took Mormonism by storm and it took the world by storm.

The Kidnapping: What Happened That Night

Taylor Macy [00:08:59] So I do want to add, as you make the comparison of. Of kind of the Mormon lore and the things in True Crime relating to Mormonism, I think the case of Elizabeth Smart does stand on its own in a little bit of its own category. Right. All of those people you mentioned were the criminals, whereas she's the victim and has since come out on the other side of it even more well known than perhaps her captors. Now, obviously there's people know the names of the captors, but she's done so much work and she's been. It's been kind of a good triumphing over evil in a way.

John Dehlin [00:09:33] I mean, I guess you could say that Ruby Frankie and the Frankie family are victims of Jodi Hildebrandt, but Jody

Taylor Macy [00:09:41] was the focus of that. Right. I mean, it's true. I.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] They were complicit. So you're right. It's. It's complicated anyway.

Samantha Shelley [00:09:48] It's complicated.

John Dehlin [00:09:48] Yeah. No, that's good. All right, let's.

Alyssa Alexander [00:09:51] Okay, so we just have a. A quick clip just of. Of where she was taken her chatting a little bit about. Oh, I guess. So they leave. They leave the house. I'll just set this up a little bit. They leave the house. It's the middle of the night. This man takes her, she's in her pajamas, and they go up the mountains behind her house and they just start hiking.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] Brian David Mitchell had done some chores in their home and. Right.

Taylor Macy [00:10:22] So he had been recruited. Not recruited. Excuse me. He encountered Lois and Elizabeth when they were downtown school shopping. So in the, you know, August of 2001, I guess it would be. And they encountered Brian David Mitchell on the street. At that point in time he was clean shaven, didn't necessarily look disheveled, but more like he had just fallen on hard times. And instead of asking for money, he had asked for work with Lois. And Elizabeth later reflected in saying that it was because he had eyes on her and instead of wanting money, he wanted to know where she lived. At which point Lois gave Brian David Mitchell Ed's card, her husband's card, and he only ended up doing one day of work on the home that fall and never came back to be paid. But it was just a single day. And then planned for the subsequent few months to. To kidnap her.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] Yeah, and he like snuck in at night, he slipped the screen, slipped in through a window and. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:11:29] So, okay, so this clip kind of gives a little bit more about the actual kidnapping moment.

John Dehlin [00:11:36] All right, let's, let's roll the clip.

Alyssa Alexander [00:11:41] And I mean, he said like the

Taylor Macy [00:11:43] night he came to kidnap me, if

Alyssa Alexander [00:11:45] he couldn't find a way in, then

Guest [00:11:48] that was God's will not to do it.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] Yeah. What do y' all think about that?

Alyssa Alexander [00:11:55] I mean, I think we're going to be talking a lot about how Mormon this is, but so much of Brian David Mitchell's framing is, is based in God language. And everything is used as a justification for why he's doing that. And that just really, I think centers this whole case is that every moment is because God allowed it to happen. And at least that's what he was telling Elizabeth.

John Dehlin [00:12:16] And for those never Mormons out there, spell it out for how that ties to Mormon history. Anyone?

Alyssa Alexander [00:12:23] Well, I mean, Joseph Smith, everything that he did, he said, oh God, God told me I had to marry this 14 year old. God told me I had to do this. God told me I had to marry multiple women. God told me I had to assault all these people. And it's always just used as a way to make the women more submissive in their victimization and to take the pressure off of, off of the men. And that's something that.

Taylor Macy [00:12:47] Right.

Alyssa Alexander [00:12:47] David Mitchell started from the very moment he kidnapped Elizabeth. Is he is, you know, putting the onus on, on God to use that as an excuse to do horrific things.

Taylor Macy [00:12:57] And there's a clip we'll view a little bit later where she quotes him as saying, I really don't want to, but God is making me. And there's so many parallels with that and Joseph Smith's behavior with how he rationalized certain actions that people had trouble with specifically women.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] Yeah, I, I've highlighted this a lot. But the Book of Mormon starts out with Nephi, you know, the, one of the main protagonists, protagonists of the entire Book of Mormon getting the impression from God that he's supposed to kill a man, chop off his head.

John Dehlin [00:13:40] And that's kind of an inauspicious way to begin a religious text, right? That if you get a feeling that you, that you attribute to be from God because it's just a feeling after all, even if that feeling tells you to do something horrific like chop off someone's head or kidnap and have sex with a 14 year old girl, you're supposed to obey God and your feelings, the Holy Ghost.

John Dehlin [00:14:08] We're taught as Mormons that our feelings are the way that God communicates to us through the Holy Ghost. And on the one hand it's very Christian, it's very, you know, universally religious that your feelings are, can be divine in Mormon. In the Mormon case it's just led to a lot of people doing a lot of bad things and justifying it as God's will.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] So it's, it's also, it's, it's not only the prophet Joseph Smith, it's the Lafferty brothers killing a pregnant woman, it's Warren Jeffs, it's every Tim Ballard and Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt. All these true, true crime cases that are Mormon have that in common. These, all these people interpret their feelings or their desires as being God telling them what they should do. Samantha, what do you think?

Samantha Shelley [00:15:00] Yeah, just anytime you have a person with grandiosity, I feel like if they're religious that's going to be an easy co opting which is a lot of the time going to magnify what they might do as a result of that grandiosity. So it is scary because a percentage of people in a population are always going to have grandiosity.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:15:21] And I mean in the Book of Mormon and in all those examples, the specific, that, the specific thing that Nephi is told to do is a very tactile, literal thing. I think sometimes when we think about like oh, the Spirit is telling me to be kind or the Spirit is guiding me toward anything, but it's a very literal, you know, action that we're taught within Mormonism especially. It's not just like a, a general sense of the word of the world that, that God can direct us to. It's big decisions and life changing moments

Samantha Shelley [00:15:52] and he didn't even need to do that murder. Joseph didn't even Use the gold plates. And he could have got the gold plates without killing him.

Alyssa Alexander [00:15:58] But isn't it amazing?

Samantha Shelley [00:15:59] Isn't it cool that he followed a prompting to murder?

John Dehlin [00:16:04] Yeah. And. And again, Samantha, to your point, every population is going to have a certain percentage of people who have schizophrenia or delusions or narcissistic or histrionic or whatever. But the reason why Mormonism can be pernicious is because believing that your feelings come from God can be the tipping point to make you feel justified in acting or believing that your thoughts or visions or feelings or dreams are real. And in Joseph Smith's case, this theme of the reluctant prophet, Joseph literally tells some of the teenage girls that he is predatory upon. God told me that an angel with a sword is going to kill me if you and I don't get married and then have sex. And so I don't want to do it, but if I don't, God and the angels are going to kill me, so we got to do it. So anyway.

Samantha Shelley [00:16:55] And wouldn't it be nice if we had more spiritual traditions where sort of the extreme acts of faith that people did were really good things, so that when people have delusions of grandeur, you know, they'd be more inclined to sell all their things and give to the poor or, you know, something more Christian, rather than kill a guy, marry a child. It's always that, isn't it? It's never.

Alyssa Alexander [00:17:15] Yeah.

Taylor Macy [00:17:16] It always seems to be a little bit more nefarious.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:18] It's always like the shadow side of humanity, never the. Never the light side.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] Yeah. And I don't know if this would be better, but why didn't God go to all the women that Joseph Smith married and say, you need to go to the prophet and tell him that I sent you to. To. To marry you?

Taylor Macy [00:17:37] Well, and I think that.

John Dehlin [00:17:38] Right.

Taylor Macy [00:17:38] Especially when you have women, specifically, that have grown up in the church and grown up with this narrative of God speaks through these men, they become so much more vulnerable to manipulation. I mean, I think about the countless stories there are of men telling women. I've. God has told me that I am supposed to marry you. And how often, in a Mormon context.

Alyssa Alexander [00:18:02] Right.

Taylor Macy [00:18:02] And how often that can bring up struggle for a woman, even if she doesn't want to be with this person, to say, well, maybe God did tell him. Maybe I need to be humble. And there's. There's an element of vulnerability that is. That can be exploited.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Yeah. Y' all haven't seen my interview with David Archuleta. It's gonna drop on February 17th. But I've already recorded it, and I don't want to give it a, Give too much away. But in that, in that interview, David talks about having these inclinations of being attracted to men, hating that about himself and learning that he can't trust himself because if his own feelings are telling him that he should love men and be with men, then he must be bad. He must be untrustworthy. And what that set himself up for was to then be vulnerable to a predatory dad or to Elder Ballard or the church.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] And I think it can be similar. If there's a young teenage girl who's Mormon who has makes mistakes and then feels shame and guilt for the mistakes she makes, she's going to be very vulnerable to just obeying whatever priesthood leader or returned missionary tells her he's talked to God. So she needs to, she can't trust herself, so she needs to.

Taylor Macy [00:19:28] So you learn, you become programmed to externalize authority rather than looking within and trusting your own intuition, which is such a shame.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:36] I do think Elizabeth's story is nice because it seems like at no point in the nine months that she was with him did she actually see him as an authority. Like, it seemed like she'd had a healthy enough upbringing to that point to know that this man was not a prophet of God and she wasn't going to fall for it.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] You know, I, I don't, I don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but, you know, I think about this idea of Stockholm Syndrome, and I think about Patty Hearst, who was the, the billionaire publisher's daughter in California who is abducted and kidnapped by a terrorist organization and ended up being supportive of the terrorist organization. Like, I, I, I wonder if there was a point, let's just put it this way. If there ever was a point where Elizabeth Smart felt like she was doing God's will and following a prophet, it wouldn't be unheard of. Yeah, but did you Stockholm system Stockholm Syndrome is real.

Samantha Shelley [00:20:30] No, but it's not. The, the, I listened to a podcast on this. Yeah, it's been debunked. It was essentially, she says as much.

Taylor Macy [00:20:37] She, she doesn't believe that it's real. In another.

Samantha Shelley [00:20:39] Yeah, it doesn't sound like she, Like, I can understand that people can become sympathetic to their abusers or, you know, extreme situations can, Obviously, anything can happen. But actual Stockholm syndrome is, was sort of based on this one bank robbery where, I don't know, the robbers had some good points, it sounded like. And also did treat the, the people they had captured like while they Weren't in it to try and hurt them. That's a whole thing.

John Dehlin [00:21:04] Interesting.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:04] But I feel like I remember something about that other case you mentioned. I just think sometimes there are these like radical movements that do have some good principles behind them. I don't remember enough about that one to say what that's about, but I

John Dehlin [00:21:17] guess I would also just say whether or not stock. I love that feedback from both of you, Taylor and Samantha. So whether or not Stockholm syndrome is real and whether or not Elizabeth ever felt like she was truly following a prophet.

Taylor Macy [00:21:31] If I can interject, pretty much all

John Dehlin [00:21:32] of Joseph's wives did.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:34] Yeah, they did.

John Dehlin [00:21:34] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:35] But they had more time.

Alyssa Alexander [00:21:36] That.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:37] That's what I think is the difference is she had 14 years with a seemingly healthy family.

John Dehlin [00:21:41] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:42] And wouldn't have known about polygamy in 2002, I'm assuming.

John Dehlin [00:21:46] Maybe.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:46] So it wouldn't have been.

John Dehlin [00:21:47] Or she may have known her ancestors were polygamous because they were potentially.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:50] But I don't think a 14 year old girl in 2002 would have known that Joseph Smith married 14 year old girls.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] No, probably not. What were you saying, Taylor?

Taylor Macy [00:21:57] I apologize. She has commented on this. I think she probably gets asked this question a number of times. And just in the interviews that I watched in preparation for this, she says that at no point did she ever feel as if there was a will of God involved.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] Okay.

Taylor Macy [00:22:15] Never had any type of sympathy toward her captors.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] Then that's actually to her credit because pretty much all of Joseph Smith's wives and There were over 30 and many of Brigham Young's wives and pretty much all of Warren Jeff's wives all believed he was being led by God. But there were also different.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:32] And there was sort of a whole community backing those situations. It's understandable why the pressure those wives would go that way.

John Dehlin [00:22:41] All right, Alyssa, thank you. You're so patient with us going down rabbit holes.

Alyssa Alexander [00:22:44] No, I love it. So the next slide is just addressing how Mormon this. The initial elements are.

The Smart Family and Early Investigation

John Dehlin [00:22:53] I should say the smart family has strong polygamous roots in Mormonism. So her ancestors were polygamous. And I know that because I'm related. There are smarts in my polygamous Mormon ancestry line.

Alyssa Alexander [00:23:08] Utah is a small community, one big happy family.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] As a dark humor. It's Alyssa's dark humor.

Alyssa Alexander [00:23:19] Oh, okay. So one, one element that I did want to bring up to give Mormon community credit. And I. I mean, I think this would happen within other communities as well, but within the first, as soon as they found out that Elizabeth was missing. The community really rallied behind Elizabeth, and they sent out just massive search parties. But one thing that I thought was cool, that I think is. Is somewhat unique to Mormonism, is that everybody in the neighborhood knew Elizabeth. They knew her, this little girl. They knew how well she played the harp. And I think it turned. It turned into a nationwide search.

Alyssa Alexander [00:23:51] I mean, it was a nationwide story or a national story, and everyone was searching. But I do think there is a bit of sweetness there in. In this darkness that people were not only looking for this face on the picture, but they knew her. They knew her family. They were trying to help this. This girl that they connected with. And I think that's one way that Mormonism and the Mormon community is. Is. Was trying to show up in this really dark moment. So I just wanted to, like, point that out.

John Dehlin [00:24:20] Yeah. For those who don't know Utah, I think people would assume Utah is very Mormon, but, like, certain areas of Utah can be so Mormon that, you know, just three streets in a subdivision make up a congregation. So people. People know each other here. Mormons know each other here, especially in their neighborhoods. But all throughout the valley, you've got cousins and aunts and uncles everywhere.

Taylor Macy [00:24:47] We're probably all related in some way.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] Yeah, we all kind of are. Yeah, that's a good point. Okay.

Alyssa Alexander [00:24:55] Okay, so let's. We've kind of addressed a little bit of, like, the basics of their family. They're really devout, and that just adds just, I think, unique layer. This is. It's such a rare case. I think people know how rare it is for somebody to be kidnapped, for to not be a family member. That's the case here. That's part of what made it such a national story. Okay, so let's bump down just a few basics on how the case continued that the documentary covers. Initially, the family were the first suspects, understandably.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Would this have been after the Jomine Ramsey case where the dad was suspected to have killed his daughter?

Alyssa Alexander [00:25:33] I don't know when that was.

Taylor Macy [00:25:34] Yeah, that was. That was 90s or. Yeah, I want to say it preceded this.

John Dehlin [00:25:39] So I'm guessing that would have influenced people's wonderings about. Even though JonBenet Ramsey's dad was never convicted. Right, right.

Taylor Macy [00:25:47] He.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] That that murder was never solved.

Taylor Macy [00:25:49] Still, they're still doing documentaries to this day.

Alyssa Alexander [00:25:52] Yeah.

Taylor Macy [00:25:52] It's very, very interesting, without a doubt.

Alyssa Alexander [00:25:54] Yeah. Do you all want to. To address any of the family elements? The brother, Ed's brother was a suspect. He kind of gave some poor interviews. I don't know if that's something that we want to address here. If that's just an interesting element.

John Dehlin [00:26:07] Yeah. What do we think about Ed's. Ed Smart's brothers?

Samantha Shelley [00:26:10] Yeah. That was an interesting part of the doc, huh?

Taylor Macy [00:26:13] I think it was. It was valid that they included some of his commentary because it did seem very suspicious. It did feel very, very odd, very strange. And, you know, later in interviews, Elizabeth says, you know, he hadn't slept for five days, and there was a lot of stress on the family. But it definitely. It kind of. That radar perks up of like there's something that's not. It doesn't feel good about this.

Alyssa Alexander [00:26:40] Tom, I think, is his name. He. In a couple interviews, he's. He's saying, like, man, you know, everybody. He seems oddly empathetic to the captors as saying, everyone does really bad things. Everybody has secrets. In some ways, you know, this is a beautiful story because everyone's talking about an angelic little girl or something along those lines, and it just really rubbed people the wrong way. And then he had, like, an inconclusive polygraph test.

Samantha Shelley [00:27:04] But then it also seemed like there was some weird psychic intuition with the family, like the. The weird uncle saying, I think this could be someone that really likes Elizabeth. Which obviously isn't, like, quite the right way to say it, but it almost was like the. Him and the dad were intuiting certain truths about the situation. I just find interesting, given what we don't know about consciousness. Like, who knows?

Alyssa Alexander [00:27:32] One thing that I thought was. Was Mormon about this, and I can't remember if Tom was still Mormon or not, but at least grew up that way. Just his. I was just thinking a lot about his comment that, like, oh, you know, in some ways, this is a great. It's a beautiful story because we're talking about this. This great little girl, which I think most people heard that as just this horrific, shocking comment because she's missing. She'd been found, and nobody knew where she was.

Samantha Shelley [00:27:57] Saying, everybody has. See. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just very strange.

Alyssa Alexander [00:28:02] Weird.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:02] Very strange.

Alyssa Alexander [00:28:05] Kind of read to me a little bit like, there's so much of this conditioning within our community of trying to find the positive no matter what, and not really being equipped to hold any sort of grief. And so when he is at his wit's end, when he hasn't been sleeping for days, he's at just this moment of major panic.

Alyssa Alexander [00:28:26] I can kind of understand how. I mean, I think a lot of Mormons, like, we've all been to funerals where the main focus of the funeral is. We're so glad we get to see them again one day. Let's. This is not sad. This is beautiful. And I feel like it seems like this moment perhaps was. It was bringing up some of those feelings of like, I'm not able to like, grieve how terrible this is. My panic reaction is going to be. I have to find something positive. At least we're talking about this amazing little girl. I have to find some way to salvage this. My own brain cannot hold space for this.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:57] Yeah, like just a weird expression of. Of. It was amazing how the community came together, I guess. And so. Yeah. Yeah, I guess we'll never know about, like.

Alyssa Alexander [00:29:07] Yeah, I was just like a kind of a. A strange little side trail of the documentary that was never really resolved, but just.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:15] Yeah. It made you wish the documentary wasn't just one hour. Like, I kind of hate when documentaries have to be one hour as opposed to like an eight part series.

Taylor Macy [00:29:26] And if you've read her book, that was certainly how I felt. Right. I felt like her book goes into so much detail and. And this was more of just an umbrella coverage. It was still well done and I felt like we still got, you know, new insight, but I was craving more details.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:40] Yeah. It made me want to go read her books. I've been listening to it now, but

John Dehlin [00:29:44] should we talk about Richard Ricci? Ricci. How do you pronounce Richard Reese? Reese.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:48] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:29:48] Our first suspect.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] Yeah. Yeah. Like, I felt so sorry for him. So. Yeah. Yeah. Y' all want to tell our audience about Richard Reece and what happened?

Alyssa Alexander [00:29:59] Yeah.

Guest [00:30:00] So he.

Alyssa Alexander [00:30:00] He's our first aspect. So the Smart family, they had contractors do work on their house. Richard Re was one of them. He was actually recommended by the LDS employment center, which is just a fun little, little tidbit.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] Which means he was lds. Probably.

Alyssa Alexander [00:30:17] Probably had some relation to it at least.

Taylor Macy [00:30:21] But he was a. Convicted.

Alyssa Alexander [00:30:23] He was a convicted felon. Yeah. And so that was on his record, I think of a violent crime as well. So he became the number one suspect. There had been some miscommunication, disagreement with Ed Smart on payment or something like that. So they. The relationship didn't end well. He'd done contract work. They found out that he'd been to the house. He had a criminal history. He must be the guy. So they really jump on him.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:50] Drive hundreds of miles away all night on that. What was that? We never found out.

Alyssa Alexander [00:30:55] Insane.

Taylor Macy [00:30:56] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:56] Nuts.

Taylor Macy [00:30:57] Yeah, he. I believe in exchange for payment, agreed to. Ed had agreed to give him this jeep for work on the job. But also just for. As a source of payment for what he was doing. And the night of Elizabeth's kidnapping, there were hundreds of miles put onto this car. And he would not admit where he was and why there was so much mileage put on. So they were thinking, could she be out in the west desert? But. Yeah. And then with his passing in jail with. To due to the brain aneurysm, it was really. That was another one of those question marks that was like what could that have been? And why didn't he want to divulge that information?

Alyssa Alexander [00:31:42] Bizarre. He just dies.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:44] Yeah. And it didn't even seem like he was claiming. Oh, I just went to clear my head. I like going on long drives. It just seemed like he was just giving nothing.

Taylor Macy [00:31:51] Yeah. And they even offered him immunity.

Guest [00:31:53] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:54] Unless it was homicide.

Taylor Macy [00:31:56] Unless it.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:56] Or child abuse. So maybe I'm like, did he do a different.

John Dehlin [00:32:01] Well, it's almost giving a foreshadowing of the Susan Powell and Joshua Powell murder because they're Mormon and did when she disappears and he goes off into the desert. Right. And was guilty. So it's almost like they were channeling the ghost of. Is it Richard Powell into their suspicions about Richie Rishi. Does that make sense? Is that a stretch?

Taylor Macy [00:32:35] No, there's. There's something there in the west desert. It seems to be a hot spot for nefarious behavior.

Guest [00:32:41] Crime.

Alyssa Alexander [00:32:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:42] But I felt. I felt bad because Richard Rishi has this aneurysm and he dies. He was wrong accused. Right.

Taylor Macy [00:32:51] Well, and we also didn't mention that he had stolen jewelry from Lois. When they went to with a search warrant to his home. They find that he's it. If you were an investigator in this case, I think you can see why they would be so confident. Confident? Because it seemed like there were so many pieces that did make sense.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:09] Yeah, there'll be. There's no reason you could imagine why someone just happened to drive hundreds of miles away that night.

Taylor Macy [00:33:15] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:15] It's almost impossible to imagine that wouldn't be him.

John Dehlin [00:33:17] Yeah. And I'm being reminded it's Joshua Powell. Not Richard Powell.

Taylor Macy [00:33:21] I was going to say. Is that Richard.

John Dehlin [00:33:23] Joshua Powell? Yeah. Okay. So the. The key suspect dies and. Yeah. What happens next?

Alyssa Alexander [00:33:31] Oh wait. Before he dies. Before he dies in July. So it's been almost two months since Elizabeth has been taken. And someone else tried to break into Elizabeth Mars Cousin's house. Her 18 year old. They put a couple chairs up by the window.

Alyssa Alexander [00:33:51] The screen was cut so it looked like Elizabeth's cousin was going to get Kidnapped as well. Richard Reese was in jail at the time. So you'd think that this would. And we find out later that Brian David Mitchell was planning on kidnapping Elizabeth's cousin or her younger sister. Both. He eventually wanted to have seven wives. So this was a very scary situation. I don't exactly, I don't, I don't think they really covered what happened and why, why the kidnapping didn't end up going through. But he strikes again basically at this time. And Richard was in jail. So this made the Smart family especially believe that it most likely wasn't him.

Alyssa Alexander [00:34:26] But the police is still confident that it is him. He dies, he has an aneurysm and the police are still like, well, I guess our, I guess our guy is gone. Elizabeth is most likely dead as well. And that is kind of where the police is, is taking the case from here.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:40] And the nine year old sister who had witnessed the capture said it wasn't Richard Ricci had passed away.

Taylor Macy [00:34:47] I think she had known the name, I want to say because that was when they created the sketch.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:53] Yeah.

Taylor Macy [00:34:53] Oh, Emmanuel.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:56] Yeah. So it's like this nine year old's word up against all these facts in the police.

Alyssa Alexander [00:35:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:03] And I'm getting one of our viewers, Jenna Rail, 85 is helping me get my timeline straight. Susan Powell murder was 2009. So after all this.

Taylor Macy [00:35:16] So anyway, JonBenet Ramsey was 96. I looked that up. So it had just preceded.

John Dehlin [00:35:20] Anyway, thanks for our viewers and listeners keeping us, keeping us honest. So do we know that Brian David Mitchell was the one that tried to sneak in to Elizabeth Smart's cousins?

Mitchell's Use of Mormon Doctrine and Ritual

Taylor Macy [00:35:31] I believe in her book she says so. And there, I guess it was God's will for it to not, not be her also.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] Yeah, yeah. And so it couldn't have been Richard.

Taylor Macy [00:35:40] Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] Because he was in jail.

Alyssa Alexander [00:35:42] So then in the documentary we, we take a break from the case and dive into Elizabeth's perspective and we start interviewing with Elizabeth and this is a really powerful chunk of the interview. So now we're going to be diving into some, some much heavier elements as we're going into Elizabeth's perspective. So she tells us how that that night back in June, he takes up into the mountains. There's a tent up there, like a camping tent and another woman in some robes. Her name is Wanda Barzi who just gives her this big hug.

John Dehlin [00:36:19] Can I just say this is obvious and kind of ham fisted but polygamy is obviously Mormon. The idea of an already married man wanting to take not just a second wife but seven other wives And a lot of them young, attractive teenage girls. That is the Joseph Smith, the Brigham Young, the Heber C. Kimball. That is the Mormon story for the first 50 years. So. So Brian David Mitchell absolutely was a believing Mormon. He absolutely believed in Joseph Smith. He absolutely knew that Joseph Smith was called to practice polygamy and he was trying to do the same thing. He was just basically trying to do what Joseph did. Yeah. This is the Spirit. Be a prophet. Bring on young, hot teenage women, girls as his celestial wives. Sorry, I had to just.

Alyssa Alexander [00:37:05] No, I agree. I was going to say it feels almost too on the nose, but that's. That is the case. You know, it's. It's a very literal reinterpretation of the same story.

John Dehlin [00:37:15] And like a Mormon would feel like it's unfair to compare Brian David Mitchell to Joseph Smith. Right. A believing Mormon would say that's an unfair comparison. What do you think?

Alyssa Alexander [00:37:26] Really offensive. I think. I think from a Mormon perspective, that's a really offensive comparison.

John Dehlin [00:37:31] And Taylor. Samantha, is it unfair or is it fair?

Taylor Macy [00:37:34] I mean, putting myself in the shoes of a believing Mormon, I could see how that would be an uncomfortable comparison to make. But I think it's the same, the same unease that one might feel if Mormonism were compared to occult or Scientology. Like anything that threatens the one true nature of the church. I think it would be really uncomfortable. But I think it's a valid comparison to make because of all of the parallels that we'll get into. There's more than is comfortable.

Samantha Shelley [00:38:08] Yeah. I think when you're getting into apologetics or arguments about different degrees of severity of paedophilia, you're in a bad zone.

John Dehlin [00:38:21] Get out. They called Brian David Mitchell a pedophile.

Samantha Shelley [00:38:24] Yeah, he is.

John Dehlin [00:38:25] And I was just shocked when they said that she was 14 because that's the age of at least two of Joseph Smith's wives. Were y' all shocked by that hearing? The age 14? Because Joseph Smith had at least two 14 year old wives. And I. My point is, Mormons are taught that next to Jesus, the most righteous human who's ever lived on the face of the planet is who. Fill in the blank panel.

Alyssa Alexander [00:38:48] Just Smith.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] Am I making that up? Am I exaggerating?

Alyssa Alexander [00:38:52] I was taught that.

Taylor Macy [00:38:53] Absolutely. No, Absolutely. That was the case.

John Dehlin [00:38:55] Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:38:56] Yeah, he said it himself. Right there's he's done more for the world, save maybe Jesus Christ. Maybe he's not sure.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] So I'm not trying to make Brian David Mitchell out as a victim or even Wanda Barzee, but if the, if your spiritual hero Other than Jesus is a polygamist that marries 30 women and 14 year old girls. You come by the practice of belief honestly and Doctrine and Covenants 132 is canonized scripture in Mormonism to this day in 2026, condoning celestial marriage or polygamy. So it's scripture too.

Samantha Shelley [00:39:35] It's just coming back to what we were talking about at the beginning, which is like, if the most extreme act, like culture defying act of faith that you're taught about in your spiritual tradition is marrying kids. The psych human psyche is really on the nose a lot of the time. So it's like that's where you're going to go to. Instead of like as we were saying, someone with delusions of grandeur who thinks they're a prophet of God, selling all their stuff, devoting their life to actually helping people.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] Yeah. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:40:08] Okay, so just a few other specific details. She meets Wanda Barzi, who used the name Hepzeba. Aleta Isaiah. David Mitchell uses the name Emmanuel.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] Did y' all wonder if that was their actual temple names? Because Mormons are assigned new names in the temple. And so I was wondering whether they were using their temple names.

Taylor Macy [00:40:33] Is Hezebah a temple name?

John Dehlin [00:40:35] I don't know. Someone needs to look that up. So those of you in the audience, Julia, whoever, There's a list I didn't know. People don't know this, but there's actually a calendar of temple names where male and female names are assigned to certain days of the week. So you could actually go back to whatever day you went through the temple for the first time and were assigned a name. And you can find out what name was assigned to you based on a calendar that they had back then and I think might still use to this day. So anyway, y' all may not know that, but. But that exists. Somebody needs to find out whether those two temple names are on the list.

Taylor Macy [00:41:11] I can't think they would use Emmanuel. Right. As it's more of a. A Christ maybe, but I don't know, maybe.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:18] It seems like he kind of did his own thing.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Okay. Yeah. So he named himself.

Alyssa Alexander [00:41:24] Okay, so she's up there. Wanda washes her feet in the tent, and then Brian David Mitchell uses temple language and seals Elizabeth to him as his wife. And she wouldn't have recognized this as temple language at the time because she's 14, but that's what he's doing.

Taylor Macy [00:41:45] I did think that was very interesting that he took direct verbiage from the temple ceremony in order to perform a ceiling, which if you used those words. If you said the word ceiling to any Mormon member, it wouldn't recognize the

Alyssa Alexander [00:41:58] word ceiling, at least for sure.

Taylor Macy [00:42:00] But that. Yeah, that it was just so. So directly copied, I think, was really, really interesting. Obviously informed by Mormonism to a degree.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:09] Like, he had his own book of scripture, but he couldn't come up with his own verbiage for that.

Alyssa Alexander [00:42:16] Too good.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:17] Yeah. Can't be improved upon.

Alyssa Alexander [00:42:20] And then. And then he does the first of May, he rapes her in the tent. And I. One element that I just thought was really heartbreaking is that she has such little sexual education or awareness at this point that she thinks if she's on her stomach, that she won't be able to be assaulted. And I think that goes to show both her age and her just, you know, Mormon innocence misunderstanding of all of these really horrific details.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:47] There was also something in her book that wasn't in the documentary that I thought was interesting, which is that she says, I'm just a girl. I haven't even started my period yet. And then he pauses and yells out to his wife through the tent, she hasn't started her period yet. Is that still okay? And then the wife says, yeah, it's still okay. But I thought it was interesting that he paused at that.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] It's a horrific part of the documentary, for sure.

Alyssa Alexander [00:43:15] And it. I mean, unfortunately, so much of the case really does center around child sexual assault. Yeah. And I think that's just one of the. The darkest elements here. We have a few clips that kind of talks about her reaction to this and how that is baked within her Mormon framework in addition to just, like, the. The trauma of it. And then we have a few quotes from. From church leaders that kind of go along with this as well.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] All right, so let's play the first clip.

Alyssa Alexander [00:43:49] Okay. What did you guys talk about when you were just chilling at camp for days?

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:43:53] I mean, he just mostly talked about, like, himself.

Video Clip 1 [00:43:56] Yeah, all the time.

Video Clip 1 [00:43:58] Just, like, how God called him and, like, how he didn't want to do this, but God told him he had to.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] All right. He didn't want the reluctant Brigham Young said that.

Taylor Macy [00:44:12] I was going to say that's a direct callback to whether it's the angel and the flaming sword. Brigham Young. I mean, that's a very common behavior amongst these patriarchal leaders in Mormon history

Samantha Shelley [00:44:21] and cults in general. Isn't. Don't you feel like. I mean, most cult leaders seem like they take young wives and also claim that they don't really want to.

Alyssa Alexander [00:44:34] It seems like there's this recognition that what they're doing is bad and like,

Taylor Macy [00:44:41] but it gives them carte blanche. It's like, well, sorry, I can't do anything about this.

Alyssa Alexander [00:44:44] And like a way of, of like, I don't, I don't know, maybe I'm projecting here, but like connecting almost with the abused. Like we're on the same team as us against God that way. I, I don't know. It's.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:57] It's just, it's like on some level they have this awareness that it's this shadow aspect of themselves, which is why they have to put it on, you know, the highest being in the universe, but like, not enough to actually not do it.

John Dehlin [00:45:13] I mean, I, we've never really talked about this before and it's really delicate, but as an adult, I have never been attracted to a 14 year old. Like I could actually get someone feeling like, I don't want to do this. A man who is even a man who enjoys sex saying, no, I, I'm not going to marry a 14 year old. That's horrific. And I don't even want to. So like, that's within the realm of possibility for my brain. But like you said, somehow they.

Taylor Macy [00:45:46] But isn't that interesting that. That your own feelings by default have to be superseded by this?

John Dehlin [00:45:51] Yeah.

Taylor Macy [00:45:52] This idea of a more powerful being.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:55] And he had also had other instances in his life. Like he clearly was attracted to children.

John Dehlin [00:46:01] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:46:01] So it's. And also, I mean, we all receive the social conditioning that the worst thing you can be is a pedophile for good reason. So I feel like it's just like that. Coming through.

John Dehlin [00:46:11] Yeah. Dark. Yeah. Okay, so that's the reluctant pedophile narrative. Let's go ahead and go to the next clip. After the first rape, you know, virginity is cherished. What were your thoughts after that?

Mormon Teachings on Purity and Shame

Guest [00:46:40] I thought I was ruined. 100% thought I was ruined.

John Dehlin [00:46:45] To the point where you didn't even know if your family would want you back.

Guest [00:46:48] Yeah. Thought I was going to be like a. If, if I managed to survive this, if I ever made it back to civilization, would I just become a pariah?

Alyssa Alexander [00:46:59] Oh my God.

Guest [00:47:00] Like, how could anyone have anything to do with me once they knew the truth? Did you?

John Dehlin [00:47:06] That was Dex Shepard on Armchair Expert. Did you want to say anything about that, Alyssa?

Alyssa Alexander [00:47:12] I mean, I think it's of course just devastating that she's feeling not only the trauma of, of the rape, but is now processing just this fear that other people are going to be judgmental of her, that she's done Something wrong? She mentioned in a moment, I'll just say it now, that she had never learned the difference between consensual sex and rape. That she was just taught, you know, within a Mormon construction, don't have sex before marriage. That's. That's all there is to it. So whether that was consensual or not was never even a part of the discussion.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] Can I just ask really quickly, Roll Call, have any of you heard the term consent discussed in the context of sex within a Mormon context in. In all your decades as a Mormon? Alyssa? Never.

Alyssa Alexander [00:48:08] Never.

Taylor Macy [00:48:09] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:11] No. But rape was. I, I feel like rape was acknowledged as bad. Yeah. And not.

John Dehlin [00:48:19] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:19] Not your fault.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:21] But 14, obviously.

Alyssa Alexander [00:48:22] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:23] In that context.

Alyssa Alexander [00:48:24] And I think one thing that, that I would imagine would be difficult, and she mentions this too, that she said that she knew, like, cognitively, literally, this isn't my fault, but the conditioning of the shame of sexual. And anything sexual, I think is going to be superseding that. And so even if, you know, like I had one comment, rape is bad. I've had hundreds of conversations about how sexuality is bad. I would imagine just like that's the feeling that's going to be more present even if she knows that it's not her fault.

Taylor Macy [00:48:58] But especially too, because I think there is oftentimes the narrative of, you know, but maybe she was asking for it. You know, you think about Dallin Oaks saying that you are walking pornography if you're showing your shoulders. That's why I'm showing my shoulders today. But you could have this small part of your brain that's like, well, maybe I did do something to, to warrant this behavior towards me. So maybe it is my fault. I mean, and, and she is pretty adamant that she believed it wasn't her fault. But you can see with some of the messaging that we get time and time again that you could have these moments of, did I do something that, that could have, you know, made him do this to me. That could have impacted the behavior, like,

Alyssa Alexander [00:49:38] especially on the subconscious.

Taylor Macy [00:49:39] That's what I mean. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] But also we need to, in a Mormon context, we need to tease out the feeling of did I contribute or am I in any way to blame? With just the message that regardless of your fault or non fault, are you damaged goods? So maybe we, that's the. We can go to the slides for that.

Alyssa Alexander [00:50:01] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's something that is, that is really tricky that even if, like Sam was saying, I think within a Mormon construct, rape is, is bad and I don't think that there has been a lot of emphasis on if you were raped, that means that you're now clean. You know, I think that I would imagine, especially when you're 14, you're kind of going through this.

Alyssa Alexander [00:50:29] There's not going to be a lot of distinction there. And, and we have a lot of quotes that we'll go into from apostles talking about how terrible chastity, about the. The terrible sin of chastity. And so I, I don't think, like, I wasn't ever taught, like, well, if you have sex, then this is the next to murder. If you have rape, it's not your fault. But I was also never taught, like, if you are raped, then you didn't actually commit this. And next to murder, you can erase it. But you have. You're not necessarily like.

Taylor Macy [00:51:01] I think there's just a lot of mental gymnastics.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:04] It does. I mean, it is worth noting that every rape victim will feel usually a sense of shame or, I mean, especially a kid, you know, of like, being dirty in some way. But it does seem like she had, like, throughout her whole story. I'm always just surprised by her strength. I feel like she's like, somewhat of an aberration for a Mormon girl at that time, because she did seem to, the entirety of the time just be like, I know that I didn't do anything to deserve that. And like, that was done to me. Like, I could imagine other Mormon girls in that situation not being so firm in that.

Taylor Macy [00:51:39] But I do think her. Her specific vocabulary in this clip of saying, I thought I was ruined. And of course, I'm sure she felt that, like, violation and just dirtiness that someone has done, you know, taken advantage of your body. But ruined is. Has slightly a different meaning, you know, like, ruined in society. She thought she'd be a pariah. It wasn't that she felt dirty, it was that she thought the perception of her would be drastically affected.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] And let's, let's just jump to some quotes in Scripture that Elizabeth and all of us would have experienced as Mormons to help provide some really important context, I think, if that's okay. The first is from the Book of Mormon itself in the Book of Alma, chapter 39. And we're going to read verse three and verse five, it says, and this is not all. My son, thou didst do that which was grievous unto me, for thou didst forsake mine the ministry, and did go over into the land of Sauron among the hordes of the Lamanites after The harlot Isabel. So a man is pursuing what the prophet Alma calls a harlot.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] For some reason, the son doesn't get called the male equivalent of harlot. But. But Isabel's a harlot. And then it says, know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination. These things meaning sex outside of marriage.

John Dehlin [00:53:17] These things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord, yea, most abominable above all sins, save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost. And so we've covered this scripture a lot on Mormon stories because I believe it's part of what fueled the Jody Hildebrandt, Ruby Franke, Kevin Frankie disaster.

John Dehlin [00:53:41] And there's a lot of these undertones in Chad Daybell, Lori Valo, Tim Ballard, et cetera. When you teach Mormons that premarital sex, and I think it's interpreted as even looking at porn and masturbation, it's interpreted that way. I think for many, many Mormons that those things are sins next to murder, that has really, really terrible and dire consequences.

John Dehlin [00:54:09] And just to put an even finer point on it, if that scripture in the Book of Mormon, which is canonized Mormon scripture, wasn't enough, we've got several just truly shocking and disturbing quotes from Mormon prophets, seers and revelators, special witnesses of Christ, who add additional intensity and horror to the Book of Mormon. So we've got Mormon Apostle Marion G. Romney saying, we would rather come to the station and take your body off the train in a casket than to have you come home unclean having lost your virtue. So in this specific case, it's a quote given to Mormon missionaries, but Mormon missionaries were taught it's better that you come home in a pine box than having lost your virtue as a missionary.

John Dehlin [00:55:07] And in my mission In Guatemala in 1990, there was a missionary who sexually abused a child while dressing them for their baptism. And my mission president, Gordon Romney, cousin of Mitt Romney, shared that exact quote at Zone conference to all the missionaries in my zone that happened on my mission. So that quote's not just a past fiction. That's a quote that was shared.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:35] To me, I mean, that feels like a more appropriate application, like that missionary had abused someone. Not been abused, you know.

John Dehlin [00:55:44] Yeah, but. But still, just equating sexual transgression, not justice, and next to murder, but better off dead. But, you know, that's just one quote. We've got a couple more that are even more problematic from Elizabeth's point of view. So we've got Heber J. Grant, who is an actual Mormon prophet, saying, there is no true Latter Day Saint who would not rather bury a son or a daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity, realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in the world. Now again, I don't know if we want to even bother to try and wordsmith or nitpick the phraseology there. I guess I could hear an apologist saying, well, Elizabeth Smart would never think to apply that to her because she was raped and so she didn't break the law of chastity, but her virtually taken.

Taylor Macy [00:56:46] I mean that's, that's. Do we want to go there? Yeah. I think a quote like that doesn't distinguish between consensual sex and sexual violence. It just says if your virtue is taken, if your chastity is lost, then it would be better. Better to have someone be dead, which I think is just horribly heartbreaking.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:14] I also think purity culture has a lot to answer for in terms of creating perpetrators like Brian, because again, it's sending those natural sexual impulses into the back corners of the psyche where you can't, you know, express them healthily. So then they're going to come out in more dysfunctional ways.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:35] Yeah, it's not good. It's not good on either end. Like, I think Mormons kind of want to have this mindset of like, well, obviously what he did was horrible and completely against the church and has nothing to do with the church because, you know, he was breaking the law of chastity and you know, other others of God's rules in doing that.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:59] But they're not reckoning with just the ways his psyche's developed, you know, with all these teachings about purity being in there. So it's like he obviously can't like, face himself truly and like confront his, well, darker impulses that may or may not be there if he hadn't received all these weird teachings about sex.

John Dehlin [00:58:20] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:58:20] And I feel like, you know, within, within an apologetic framework we can, you know, go back and forth on the, the semantics of whether each quote is referring to what exact instance. But I think like the impact is going to be the same regardless, especially for a child.

Samantha Shelley [00:58:39] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:58:39] Who is, who's just going to be terrified and lonely and, and maybe again, can, can rationally recognize that like this isn't her fault, but that doesn't mean that like the impact is not going to, to be so overwhelming and so all consuming that any sort of sexual experience that, I mean, she's taught that she's been taught all of these quotes. Whether she can try and parse out assault and sexual violence from that is, is unclear on, you know, how capable a 14 year old or any victim would be in that situation to be able to do that. But the feelings are going to be there. The, the, the dirtiness not only of the assault, but of dirtiness within a purity culture context, I think is going to be so, so damaging.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:23] Even just the notion that virginity is this real thing. Even Mormons, who obviously are not pro rape, I don't, I feel like they still would see that as like, you've lost your virginity, it wasn't your fault. It's, you know, you're innocent but like in their minds, if a penis has been inside you, like then you're not a virgin.

Taylor Macy [00:59:42] That's when the gun gets chewed.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:43] Just like a horrifying concept.

Alyssa Alexander [00:59:44] Yeah, exactly that. It's like this very literal moment where you are versus are not your virgin.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:51] And I want to get to the object lessons because Elizabeth Smart in other contexts has talked about the object lessons, but we're not done with the quotes, unfortunately. So let's really quickly play a few more, show a few more quotes from special witnesses of Christ, prophet, seers and revelators. Bruce Armaconki, whose book Mormon Doctrine was, you know, put alongside the scriptures as scriptural canon, was quoted as saying, better dead clean than alive unclean. Basically signaling, you know, to Elizabeth, let Brian David Mitchell kill you.

John Dehlin [01:00:29] That would be preferable to allowing him to rape you. I mean, that's what I would take from Bruce Armaconki's quote. Maybe I'm being unfair there, y' all can tell me. But Spencer B. Kimball, beloved again Mormon prophet, seer and revelator, it is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle. So literally, if Elizabeth Smart had heard that quote from prophet Spencer B. Kimball, she would have obeyed him and gotten herself stabbed and killed fighting off Brian David Mitchell, I guess, I'm hoping, I guess maybe she didn't hear that quote or, or knew better to disobey. Hogwash.

Taylor Macy [01:01:13] But if it wasn't that quote, I mean these types of narratives were ubiquitous. If it wasn't that exact one, it would have, it could have been another one, I should say.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:22] And even though she seemed clear on it not being her fault, she does seem to spend a lot of time in her book and in the documentary talking like explaining why she didn't like fight harder to get away or, you know, she, I, I Almost at times I'm like, she. There's definitely. She's feeling the need to, like, explain a lot about why she did it when it's like, pretty obvious why you wouldn't fight back a man with a knife who said he's going to kill you.

Taylor Macy [01:01:47] But because it would be easy to say, well, you could have tried harder. So maybe you were complicit in this.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:51] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:01:52] Were. Were you holding still? Did you fight him back in the tent? You know, like those types of things.

Taylor Macy [01:01:56] I think, because these are the types of questions too, that, I mean, might be getting out into the weeds, but were you holding still? Were like, these are the types of questions that bishops ask in weariness interviews is very specifics about, well, were you thrusting your penis? Were you. You know, and that's where you get into, like soaking and all of those types of things where you can see in her mind how she does feel like she has to justify her own behavior because there's room with that mindset of, you know, how would a Mormon look at this? To potentially victim blame?

Alyssa Alexander [01:02:27] And the specifics of whether his penis was moving or not moving comes back later after. And we'll talk about this towards the end. But when she was rescued, when the psychiatrists were asking her, you know, she just had to. Had to explain it so. So literally. And her using that type of language was extremely difficult for her. Even just using anatomical terms is something that she felt deeply uncomfortable with.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:49] Like when she got rescued, they interviewed her about this stuff.

Taylor Macy [01:02:52] Yes, it was right after she was rescued, and I think the next day we may have included a quote about it, but she had a moment of real. A real difficulty because she had been submitting to this man that had been abusive for nine months. Abusive and violent. And then she comes into a room with two male psychiatrists who are then grilling her. And did I. I can't remember if I included this clip, but yeah, so. So we'll show that in a minute. Just about how difficult it was for her to just use anatomical terms to describe things and that in addition to having to do it to these two older males, that kind of thing.

Samantha Shelley [01:03:25] Yeah, that shows how far mental health awareness has come since 2002. That seems insane to interview her about that the day after.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] Well, part of what's complicated is Mormons are taught that a prophet speaks for God and Jesus and that prophets, you know, when they profess things and. And tell the membership that that's as if God and Jesus are speaking. And so a Mormon youth could stumble on these quotes on the Internet today and say, well, Spence W. Kimball or Heber J. Grant or David O. McKay said that stuff. It still applies because Mormons aren't taught that they're allowed to disbelieve a prophet's teachings if they want to. Am I wrong?

Taylor Macy [01:04:11] Nope.

Alyssa Alexander [01:04:12] It's prophet's word is eternal, comes straight from God.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:17] Yeah, I suppose they've tried to hedge it a bit by saying a living prophet is more important than a dead prophet. And I feel like the younger you are, the, the slightly better teachings you've received around assault and stuff.

John Dehlin [01:04:28] But yeah, thanks to the Internet. Okay, so really quickly, if you thought it was just the old prophets bearded who said stuff like that beloved prophet Gordon B. Hinckley said, I know what my mother expects. I know what she's saying in her prayers. She'd rather have me come home dead than unclean. So even Gordon B. Hinckley would has said stuff like this.

Alyssa Alexander [01:04:53] And he was probably the Prophet in 2002. Right?

John Dehlin [01:04:55] Yeah, that's right. Good point. That was the pro. That was her.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:59] Oh, profit.

John Dehlin [01:05:00] Good point. Alyssa Dark point. Really quickly, let's. Let's add insult to injury by talking about the object lessons. Do any of you want to share any sexual purity chastity object lessons that you experience firsthand Or. Or did none of you experience the object lessons?

Object Lessons and Sexual Shame in Mormon Culture

Alyssa Alexander [01:05:20] No. Had the chewed gum tell just for

John Dehlin [01:05:22] our never Mormons what is.

Alyssa Alexander [01:05:23] Yeah. If you have a piece of gum that's a virtuous woman, a non chewed piece of gum. Non chewed piece of gum as a virtuous woman. And then once it's chewed, no one's gonna want that. That's gross.

Taylor Macy [01:05:34] So you can't, you can't reverse it.

Alyssa Alexander [01:05:37] Yeah, exactly.

Taylor Macy [01:05:38] Once it's chewed, it's chewed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:40] I.

Taylor Macy [01:05:41] There's akin to that. The licked cupcake. If you have a delicious cupcake but you like the frosting, someone's not gonna want to eat it after someone's already licked it.

John Dehlin [01:05:50] And there's nails in the board. You know, once the nails have been driven in the board, you can pull the nail out, but the hole remains. These are all object lessons that all

Taylor Macy [01:05:59] have the same air of, of mentality of.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:02] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:06:02] And I remember the like attempting to be slightly more progressive was the dollar bill. So you take a dollar bill and then you crumple it up and then you un crumple it and it's still worth the same. You can still use it. It's not like you wouldn't use it. Okay, so okay, better. But it is it's never going to be like a fresh, crisp bill again.

John Dehlin [01:06:21] Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:22] So that's funny. That's the more progressive one. I also thought it was interesting when. Because there was that really sad moment in the documentary where she talked about how she was worried her parents wouldn't accept her back because of the ways she'd been violated. And it seemed like pretty quickly she was like, actually, no, of course they would. My parents love me so much, blah, blah, blah. But. But then it is just interesting that the examples she gave to how she'd come to that conclusion was like, well, think of all the times that I'd like to. I can't remember what she. But she described, like, a few instances of when she'd, like, I don't know, broken something and her dad hadn't got mad at her.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:56] So it's like she was still using examples of times when she, like, technically actually done something wrong or, like, crushed the atv. Was that the example? I don't remember, but she was like, and my dad wasn't mad at me then.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:06] And like, I'm, you know, I'm just glad she reached the conclusion that her parents would still love her and accept her. But it's like, even in the line of thinking, it's like, well, when I've done things that are wrong, they'll forgive me. Yeah. When really you'd hope a child would feel like, oh, my parents would love and care for me more than ever because I've been a victim of this thing. Your brain shouldn't even go to that place of, like, doing something wrong.

Alyssa Alexander [01:07:29] And she said that she, when she was first rescued, that she felt like she was in trouble. She mentioned that a few times. I mean, also she's going to the police and is being interviewed. But she said, like, in the first moments that she saw her dad, she worried that she was in trouble somehow, even though she knew she hadn't done anything wrong. But, like, so heartbreaking that that is her first feeling.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] Yeah. And so if I could wave my Mormon magic wand, the church would get rid of the scripture equating sexual, you know, behavior as sins next to murder. It would get rid of. It would denounce all of these quotes from Mormon prophets saying that if you're impure, it's better dead than unclean. And Mormons would be taught that prophets, there's a revelators can often get it wrong. And that if you don't like something a prophet teaches or if it feels wrong to you, you can disbelieve it. Those would be all the.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] And all the object lessons about worthiness and rape culture and modesty. Messages about you're to blame if you dress wrong and you're walking pornography. Really quickly, they're asking me to share a quote from Richard G. Scott, another former apostle, prophet, seer and revelator, special witness of Christ. He's passed away. But Richard G. Scott said in general conference the victim must do all in his or her power to stop the abuse. Most often the victim is innocent because of being disabled by fear or the power or authority of the offender. At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. So that's Richard G. Scott. Any reactions to that?

Samantha Shelley [01:09:18] Pretty gross.

Alyssa Alexander [01:09:19] Yeah. I mean it's atrocious.

Taylor Macy [01:09:21] It is. That's despicable.

John Dehlin [01:09:26] Okay.

Alyssa Alexander [01:09:26] And it would make sense for that to be swirling and around and in her head.

John Dehlin [01:09:31] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:09:31] Especially because she's doesn't have anybody to confide in or process any of this with for nine months.

John Dehlin [01:09:38] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:09:39] She's just alone and coming to whatever conclusions a 14 year old can. And then trying to use, holding on to those for nearly a year that just, I feel like makes. Just makes an incredibly difficult situation even more difficult.

John Dehlin [01:09:58] Okay, well, enough said about that.

Alyssa Alexander [01:10:00] Yeah,

Samantha Shelley [01:10:04] let's see.

John Dehlin [01:10:05] So we have a quote from her, right. Do you want to read that?

Alyssa Alexander [01:10:07] Kind of addressed it. Oh, we did already. Just that she said, I don't know how many lessons I had on don't have sex before marriage, but no one had discussed with me the difference between consensual sex and intimacy versus rape. I had a lot of shame and I felt like I was filthy. I thought if my family knew what had happened to me, would they still want me back? Maybe it would be better if nobody ever found me.

John Dehlin [01:10:30] Yeah. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:10:32] So yeah, I think that is kind of covered everything that we've covered with that. I guess one other element kind of in the same topic is she explains that she was. Was raped every day, multiple times a day. That Brian David Mitchell loved power. She said that it seemed like that was. Was a primary motivator for him. A few other things that were that were happening was he was using God to justify everything. Which mentioned a minute ago, she was forced to drink beer until she threw up. He often threatened to kill her or her family and he would withhold food.

Mitchell's Behavior and Parallels to Joseph Smith

John Dehlin [01:11:15] Can I say Mormons are going to say, well that's not Mormon, he's drinking beer. Joseph Smith drank beer and wine up until his death. Served alcohol in Nauvoo and in Missouri,

Samantha Shelley [01:11:25] word of wisdom doesn't prohibit beer.

John Dehlin [01:11:28] Yeah. Or wine.

Alyssa Alexander [01:11:29] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:31] Doesn't the word of wisdom prohibit wine? It just says Bali drinks, doesn't it?

John Dehlin [01:11:34] I mean, wine was used in the sacrament back in those days. It's strong drink. Meaning.

Alyssa Alexander [01:11:39] Meaning coffee.

John Dehlin [01:11:42] Meaning like vodka or. Yeah. Whiskey or things.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:45] Things like that. No. So even wine?

John Dehlin [01:11:46] Well, Joseph Smith drank wine the night before he was martyred in. In Carthage jail. Most Mormons don't.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:51] I just assume he was breaking the rules because he was at the top.

John Dehlin [01:11:54] But no, no, wine was okay back then. It was literally just coffee, tea and hard liquor. Hard liquor, Tobacco. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:12:05] One thing that, that I thought was really beautiful is, is that she does mention that she thought about her family often, and it sounds like they did have a really great relationship and that she knew that she had something worth surviving for. So it sounds like she. She went through, you know, really intense bouts of depression and something that she's. She's still struggling, of course, with the ramifications of all of this. But she did have, like, Sam was mentioning this. This tenacity as. As terrible as. As that sounds, but that she did, you know, have a close connection with her family that. That she was trying to remember and was trying to stay. Stay alive for.

John Dehlin [01:12:45] Yeah,

Alyssa Alexander [01:12:47] I guess I just wanted to also mention that Mormonism, so much of that is. We're just thinking about how Mormon is this. The. The power that Brian David Mitchell is seeking is unfortunately very Mormon. The Mormon churches is built upon the oppression of women and on, you know, rising the ranks through power. And so he's as. And also just modern society at large really values power. And that's just something that is coming out sideways here. And in the Mormon Church generally.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] Yeah, I mean, people don't like the word sometimes, but patriarchy. Right. I mean, it was a classic patriarchy where. Where Brian David Mitchell makes the rules, makes the decisions. Rules for thee, but not for me and even not just Elizabeth, but Wanda Barzee that, you know, they just. The women go along with the man making the decision. That's kind of how Mormonism structured even in 2026.

Alyssa Alexander [01:13:42] Yeah.

Taylor Macy [01:13:42] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:13:42] Wanda is in such an odd position here because she is simultaneously an abuser and a victim. And we don't really dive much into her in the documentary. But yeah, I think that's just an odd. She. She's both a victim of him and of the patriarchal structure, and he is the one that holds more of the power. And she also is a bystander to serious abuse and pushes it Onto her as well.

John Dehlin [01:14:07] I mean she's to Brian David Mitchell what Emma Smith was to Joseph.

Alyssa Alexander [01:14:12] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Taylor Macy [01:14:14] Well, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:15] Well, I was one. I always thought that Emma Smith was more kept in the dark about a lot of it. Like I didn't imagine Emma Smith like being there, encouraging him to go forward with like race.

Alyssa Alexander [01:14:25] See it as a. Yeah, well I

John Dehlin [01:14:27] guess it depends on at what point because at some point Joseph, after about 22 wives, Joseph did introduce the principal to Emma and she went with it for a couple of his wives and then later backtracked and then denied that he ever practiced it. So unfortunately Emma is both a victim and an accomplice, at least for a short period of time. And she's definitely an accomplice in the COVID up.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:52] Yeah, yeah. It's hard to know what she knew. Just the story of what's her name, Wanda, being outside the tent, you know, that feels like very close. Would Emma Smith have been that close even if she was going along with it?

John Dehlin [01:15:08] Well, Emma watched Joseph get sealed to at least I think four of his plural wives. She was in attendance and chose the women. And that's the story where Joseph had already married these two sisters, did it again, but Emma didn't know. And then he said, okay Emma, you can help me choose my next. And then Emma chooses the two sisters that Joseph had already been sealed to. So Joseph pretends to Emma like he's never married them before, brings them in in Emma's presence and then is resealed to these two sisters which was it

Taylor Macy [01:15:43] her Relief Society presidency or it was people that she had called.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] Emma was definitely, I think those are

Alyssa Alexander [01:15:49] the ones who were already. He was already married.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:51] Already married to those and that they were ceiling.

John Dehlin [01:15:53] Yeah, I mean there's so many. But yeah, yeah, Joseph definitely married like Emma's counselors in the Relief Society unbeknownst to her, and they kept their marriage to Joseph secret from their Relief Society president, Emma. So. But anyway, I don't know. What do you think, Sam?

Samantha Shelley [01:16:12] I guess I'm just. I'm inclined to think that Emma maybe wasn't as bad as this woman, but I truly don't know. I mean, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:16:18] No, I'm not saying as bad. Yeah, I mean Wanda disrobed Elizabeth to prepare her for the rape. So I mean we don't have any evidence that Emma did stuff like that, but we can't say Emma was all victim, I guess is all I'm saying. But I mean that's why I always say on Mormon Stories that in my opinion, if I could rule the world, it would be illegal to say that you are speaking for God, for anybody else. If you want to say God told me that I need to do this or that, you know, that's whatever. But to tell anyone else, God told me that you need to do X, Y and Z should be illegal just because it's too much power. That's my opinion.

Taylor Macy [01:17:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:00] So. So if Emma believed Joseph was a prophet, if Wanda Barzee believed that Brian David Mitchell was a prophet, then they're obeying God by obeying the prophet.

Taylor Macy [01:17:10] Well, and to. To play a slightly more compassionate side, too, Wanda did have a clinical aspect of mental health issues. And again, not, not to use that as an excuse for such abhorrent behavior, but there is that element that is a piece to the puzzle that if we were to dive deeper into trying to understand her and her motivations, it might give us a little bit more information to just, you know, I think of that book, what Happened to You that Oprah wrote. And just to think of the whole picture of her life, certainly there would be a lot of things that we could draw upon that would make sense as to why she might find herself in a situation where she is aiding and abetting rape under the guise that it's being directed by God.

John Dehlin [01:18:01] Yeah, yeah. Well, I still think it's too much power to claim God told you to tell someone else to do something.

Taylor Macy [01:18:11] No, I, I agree. I absolutely agree.

John Dehlin [01:18:13] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:13] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:18:14] I think by and large, part of what just makes this, this story so Mormon is. It is, of course, an extreme example of everything. It is an extreme example of rape. It is an extreme example of, of power abuse, literal kidnapping. But all of the elements don't exist in a vacuum. And all of the pieces, individually, to varying degrees, varying severity, happened within Mormonism historically and happened within Mormonism today. And I think that's just what, like the context of this, it's maybe just seems like a crazy, salacious story, true crime story, but it is. All the pieces are so relevant in each part of our history and our current culture.

Mormon Polygamy Doctrine and Elizabeth's Captivity

Taylor Macy [01:18:59] Another thing that came to mind as I was watching the documentary is, is how they comment on how in their robes, with the language that they used when they were in public, they were viewed as very strange. And if we were to, you know, go back to when Joseph Smith was alive and, and doing what he did, obviously they weren't necessarily wearing robes out in public, but there was a sense of spiritual revivalism at the time and, and saying that you spoke for God or had visions, you know, communions with God. That was more popular. I don't know that I would say it was more accepted, but it was just more common.

Taylor Macy [01:19:37] And, and I wonder, in comparing Elizabeth to the wives of Joseph Smith, if it would have been more clear to her that this was odd and different than it would have perhaps been to Joseph's wives, because it might have been a little bit more accepted at the time. Just more of the spiritual nature of all of those things that Joseph was engaging in. Yeah, but I could be wrong.

Alyssa Alexander [01:20:06] I don't know. Yeah, I would imagine a lot of elements of, you know, Joseph was being more similar to the time. I do remember Elizabeth saying something that it took her a while before she realized how weird Brian David Mitchell was because he was using religious language. And he. He didn't seem like a religious kook right away because she grew up really religious. So him referring to God, casually referring to, you know, being called to do things casually didn't strike her ear as particularly strange on its own.

Taylor Macy [01:20:34] That's. That's a great point.

John Dehlin [01:20:36] I'll just say really quickly that we talked about all those bad quotes that we would want the Church to denounce and get rid of and whatever the Mormon Church could denounce polygamy in 2026,

Alyssa Alexander [01:20:48] they sure could, but it hasn't.

John Dehlin [01:20:50] So it's still in the scripture. It's still in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132. And the current prophet of the Church, Dallin H. Oaks, believes in polygamy and believes that he is in a polygamous marriage right now with his former dead wife. And his current wife. And the previous Mormon prophet, Russell M. Nelson, was also celestially sealed to multiple women. And, and the. The farthest that the Church has been willing to go as of 2026 is to tell the world we don't practice it anymore.

John Dehlin [01:21:23] But they have not denounced the practice. They have not taken it out of the Doctrine and Covenants. And so, again, I don't know if this was influencing Elizabeth Smart, but, you know, it would have been more helpful if Elizabeth Smart grew up in an environment not where her polygamous ancestors were celebrated as heroic, but if she had been raised in an environment where polygamy was denounced as evil and terrible and bad and as a mistake, that would have maybe been more helpful to her. But it certainly would be helpful today if the Church could take those steps,

Samantha Shelley [01:22:02] even if they would just denounce marrying children. You know, in theory, if these women are agreeing to it, who are like,

Alyssa Alexander [01:22:10] it's a good thing.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:10] Completely different thing even for an adult woman to be kind of brainwashed into agreeing versus, I mean it's pedophilia when it's a child, I feel. And the church doesn't make that distinction. They're just like she was a few months drive her 15th birthday. Like at no point are they like, you know, Joseph went too far with, with this. He.

Alyssa Alexander [01:22:29] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] Yeah, yeah. The Mormon Church has not denounced Joseph's marriages to 14 year olds, 15 year olds, 16 year olds, 17 year olds at all. And by the way, apologists are going to pick the words apart and say that if a 14 year old girl has had her menstrual cycle, pedophilia is the wrong word. The hebophilia. What's the word? Yeah, and I know, I know.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:54] Do we have.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] Taylor's cringing, Alyssa's cringing. Samantha, are you cringing?

Samantha Shelley [01:23:00] No, I, I think there's like value in that distinction. Not that hebophilia is chill, but just like I, I. Do we have any reason to know that every, every child that a Mormon prophet, apostle leader married had started their period?

Alyssa Alexander [01:23:16] I doubt it.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:17] I bet that wasn't a standard they held themselves to. Maybe that happened to be the case with Joseph Smith and Helen Mark. You know, but from what we know, girls started their periods later back then. Right. We in the modern age are starting our periods earlier for various reasons.

Alyssa Alexander [01:23:35] Yeah. And, and I mean it's just kind of like doubling down on what you said a moment ago, John and Sam, like not only was everything happening with Joseph horrific, and that's just a part of our, our story and everything that's happening with Elizabeth terrible, but I think it, it is especially impactful to victims now that the church hasn't denounced any of this. And, and you know, the more in the world that we're hearing about other child abuse going on and the way that we're responding to that as a, as a collective, I think it's so terrible and I think the church, it really needs to be responsible.

Alyssa Alexander [01:24:10] They have to denounce child sexual abuse, including of their profit. And I think it's just disgusting that the church is still unwilling to publicly say that their main leader having sex with a 14 year old was abusive. And I think that that is having ramifications now that are terrible and painful. And thinking about the victims of child sexual abuse now, living in a church where the church is still justifying the abuse of 14 year old girls, I think is incredibly painful, I would imagine for Elizabeth and other child sexual abuse victims to find out that Joseph Smith had sex with 14 year olds and the church is still standing by.

Alyssa Alexander [01:24:51] It is especially devastating. And I think it's just so irresponsible. And I mean especially like with the Epstein's files coming out right now, we're all hearing about just horrible sexual abuse and trauma. And it just I think hits especially heavy for this documentary to be coming out in that same month. It's just a lot.

John Dehlin [01:25:13] And weirdly, Jeffrey Epstein claims that he met with Thomas S. Monson, the prophet of the Mormon Church. Or he doesn't name him, but he. There's an email where he says he invites.

Taylor Macy [01:25:24] I thought it was Jeffrey Holland.

John Dehlin [01:25:26] It's 2009, I believe. And he says, I met with the leader of the Mormon Church. That's what I read. And again, I'm not saying that happened. I'm just saying that Jeffrey Epstein said he met with the leader of the Mormon Church.

Alyssa Alexander [01:25:40] And I think at the very least, if the email is accurate, that there is at least an awareness that like the Mormon Church has power and money, whether or not the Mormon Church was involved in any of the more nefarious things like that's where, that's where the power is in Utah and that's well known.

John Dehlin [01:25:58] And why didn't the prophet suss out with the spirit that he was discernment? Hello, pedophile. Yeah, I also want to just call people's attention. We did an episode, episode 2091 with Heidi Bruno who was, was groomed as a teenage Mormon girl by her, her elders Quorum president in her ward who was married at the time. And he basically takes a liking to her as a teenager and grooms her to be his girlfriend and in his mind his second spiritual wife, very much following the practice of Joseph Smith. And if y' all want to read a really good book, read the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy by Carolyn Pearson.

John Dehlin [01:26:38] We're going to be interviewing her and featuring her in a week or two. Yeah, she's a legend. And she talks about how this doctrine of polygamy is still to this day haunting the church and women and men in really, really dark ways. But check out Heidi Bruno's interview where she talks about in the modern era being groomed by a Mormon leader as a polygamous wife. So it affects people today, not just Brian David Mitchell, it affects members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter

Alyssa Alexander [01:27:06] Day Saints and it affects people to a lesser extent. I think there are really, really high rates of child sexual abuse and of women who are sexually abused. And again, I think notably and understandably the this story has a lot of screen time and that's important. And her case is particularly unique and has a lot of specific details that are not relevant to a lot of people. But child sexual abuse is so prevalent within the Mormon Church. Mormon Church is continually covering it up. Sexual abuse from a patriarchal person who's using, doing so in the name of God is also extremely common within Mormonism today. And those elements are parts of the story that so many people can relate to.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:52] Even just the way it. As a young Mormon girl, like, knowing about polygamy kind of primes your brains because you're thinking, you know, you have to think about, oh, if, if God called me to be the prophet's wife, like I'd have to do it. Or it's, it's like setting you up for this like degree of submission to men and like, it's just like inherently objectifying polygamy obviously because it's men taking a bunch of women as their wives. I just, it's like setting up these foundations in your brain. It's a little bit grooming, but even outside of, you know, I was never groomed by anyone more, you know, anyone. But like the way it still is, it's working its way in there in a really dangerous way, I think.

Taylor Macy [01:28:33] But don't you think if the church were to denounce it that it would just be a domino? I mean, to maintain the narrative of being the one true church? You can't denounce something that's currently canonized

John Dehlin [01:28:44] that loved and did.

Samantha Shelley [01:28:47] Right.

Taylor Macy [01:28:47] So that's, that's where the most harmful things. It's like, well they, they couldn't ever, they couldn't ever denounce it or abandon it because it's crucial to the foundation of their claim is the one true religion.

John Dehlin [01:29:00] And the current prophet's practicing it, so it's not going anywhere.

Taylor Macy [01:29:03] We no longer practice it in this life.

John Dehlin [01:29:06] Elder Uchtdorf, save us when you become prophet. Elder Uchtdorf, take DNC132 out of the Doctrine and Covenants next. Well, no, but Irene's not well. So Uchtdorf comes after Eyring and he's like 10 years younger and way more healthy. Okay, so there's a slight.

Alyssa Alexander [01:29:25] And you could have a Longdorf could

John Dehlin [01:29:27] be profit for five or 10 years with health and relative vibrancy for an 80 plus year old.

Taylor Macy [01:29:33] That would bring a lot of comfort to members. Would be very. I, I think Uchtdorf would be a light for a lot of Especially progressive members.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:43] If he doesn't cave to the power.

Taylor Macy [01:29:45] That's true.

John Dehlin [01:29:47] Okay, back to Elizabeth.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:50] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:29:50] So let's watch. So there's just an interesting clip about Brian David Mitchell handling the jealousy of Wanda Barzi. Thoughts from the Armchair Expert podcast as well.

John Dehlin [01:30:01] All right, see what Dex has to say. Kidding.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [01:30:06] Near me. Will you ever, like, try to annoy

Video Clip 2 [01:30:08] and be like, dude, if you're so

Video Clip 2 [01:30:10] into Jesus and God and stuff, why

Video Clip 2 [01:30:12] are you doing all the drugs?

Video Clip 2 [01:30:13] Oh, he had a whole line of reasoning for that.

Video Clip 2 [01:30:16] God just needs to show us that, like, we're nothing.

Video Clip 2 [01:30:19] This is his way of, like, humbling us.

John Dehlin [01:30:24] Okay, sorry, that wasn't. That wasn't Dax. But it was talking about.

Taylor Macy [01:30:28] I did. Yeah, I did include that because I thought the way she goes. Oh, he has a whole line of reasoning for that. I mean, it's like you can look at anything that was slightly off color in Joseph Smith's history, and you can see whether through revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants or otherwise. He had a whole line of reasoning for. For everything.

John Dehlin [01:30:46] Yeah. And I just did an episode this morning with John Turner about Joseph Smith in Nauvoo in 1842 where he propositions Sidney Rigdon's daughter Nancy, and he writes her a letter that's known as the happiness letter. And literally, what the letter says is, what's wrong in one context, God can make right in another context. And he's grooming his colleague's teenage daughter, unbeknownst to his colleague Sidney Rigdon, he's grooming his colleague's teenage daughter to be a polygamist with this logic that, you know, some rules that are right. Wrong can be right in other contexts. So that's very Joseph Smith is all I'm saying. Yeah. Okay, so that wasn't apologies. That wasn't Duck Shepard.

Alyssa Alexander [01:31:39] Now it is Dax Shepard, which I

Taylor Macy [01:31:42] do think is worth noting. We talked about this before we started recording, but this is a very popular podcast. I'm sure viewers know this. But if you have watched this episode, he had her on as his 1000th episode. And when we were talking earlier about comparison of other Mormon true crimes. Like, people aren't having Ruby, Frankie or Stephen or, I'm sorry, Kevin, Frankie as their 1,000th episode. You know, she's. She's. She's making waves. Yeah, it's great.

John Dehlin [01:32:10] She is.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:11] She's just completely impossible not to love.

Taylor Macy [01:32:13] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:14] Like, she couldn't be more likable.

Taylor Macy [01:32:16] She really is. And her whole. Yeah, her whole presence is just lovely.

John Dehlin [01:32:19] Amen. I Thought. I also thought Ed Smart's passion and advocacy for her and trying to help her be found was very endearing. And I'm a. I'm friends with Ed Smart as well.

Taylor Macy [01:32:31] Yeah, very endearing.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:32] Isn't the friends with him?

John Dehlin [01:32:34] Yeah, he's great. Okay, let's play the next clip. This is from Armchair Expert.

Guest [01:32:45] Because then sometimes her jealousy would be so much that, like, It would be so much that like, he would come out with a new revelation to try to placate her. So like, it would be things like he'd come out and he'd say, oh, you know, God has said that your glory is like that of the sun. And so I can only be with you when the sun is out. And, and me that I was just more like the moon. And so he could only have me at night. He'd have like some kind of revelation to placate her. That

John Dehlin [01:33:35] man. I, I had never heard that before. But the idea of the prophet placating his wife, again, I heard that and it was just. What. Okay, what connection did you make?

Taylor Macy [01:33:48] Well, Emma Smith, of course. I mean, that is so much of, of what he did with her. I mean, it's astonishing how, how stark that parallel is of just an example. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Where it's like, you know, she doesn't like this thing. But he's like, well, you know, God told me this, so I. This. It's because you're so special that you need to be doing this for me. And just placating women through the misuse of the idea of God is just, It's a pattern.

John Dehlin [01:34:19] Yeah, yeah. If you read Doctrine and Covenants, so many of those revelations were just in response to today. It's damage control. Damage so much. The Doctrine and Covenants is damage control. Whether it's with Emma, Oliver, Sidney, the members. I mean, that's what, that's the impetus to most of those revelations, honestly.

Alyssa Alexander [01:34:42] So let's chat a little bit more about Brian David Mitchell, who he is the, the main captor. So for the prophet or the prophet. Yes. Who's to say there's really no, there's really no way of knowing. He goes by many, many labels.

John Dehlin [01:35:00] Oh, you have little faith. That's dark. I'm sorry.

Alyssa Alexander [01:35:04] So four months after she was kidnapped, I mean, just the length of time that nine months is just so long and just. I just feel like that is just worth reiterating over and over again. But four months after she was taken, Mary Catherine, the sweet nine year old who is in bed at the same time as Elizabeth, they were sharing a bed, which is just, just devastating.

Alyssa Alexander [01:35:26] Was as she describes it, flipping through the Guinness Book of World Records and suddenly just had an epiphany of who the person was that had taken Elizabeth from their bedroom and who she calls Manuel. Apparently that's what he went by. He had done some contract work on their house. Taylor covered this a little while ago.

Alyssa Alexander [01:35:46] The police did not believe her because they thought it was that Richard Reese person who had, who had died in the jail cell. And they thought, you know, we have all this evidence for why Richard Reese would do it. We just have this nine year old's recollection of a voice from four months ago. They were pretty hesitant.

Alyssa Alexander [01:36:08] Yeah, they had her still draw up describe like a sketch drawing. She hadn't seen him clearly but she'd like kind of like squinted through her eyelashes when he was in the room. So she'd seen a glimpse of him in the dark, heard his voice and was pretty confident this is who it was that the police had had her help them drop a sketch. Then the police didn't think that they should release the sketch. It turned into this whole thing because they were pretty sure that it was Richard. They didn't want to release a sketch of this person who they didn't think it was. They're also worried that if it was him it would tip him off that they were onto him and maybe it would put Elizabeth in har arms.

Alyssa Alexander [01:36:43] So they were really with this reveal that Mary Catherine was pretty confident who it was. It caused a little bit of tension within the police department. Just another interesting detail, an aside about Brian David Mitchell at this time, somewhere during this nine month period, it must have been before this four month I would assume because that was when they kind of were on to him. But he was arrested for stealing beer from Albertsons. So they had him in jail for a moment and then released him, which is just, just devastating.

Mitchell as Manipulator and Self-Styled Prophet

Alyssa Alexander [01:37:15] Anyway, he believed he was a prophet. He was a master manipulator. And we have another clip where he kind of describes that his manipulation and that he, he knows that. So I don't know if there's anything you want to say before the clip about, about him.

Taylor Macy [01:37:29] I want to say that in Elizabeth's book she describes when he went to jail for this theft that they were. That she and Wanda Barzee were left for like seven days.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:43] Oh, whoa.

Taylor Macy [01:37:45] Only to find out later that he was so delayed from coming back to the camp because he'd been in jail. And so from her perspective describing just the hunger and the Thirst is awful. It's heartbreaking.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:56] And did he have the key to her? Because, you know, she was chained up at the camp. I remember I'm not at that point in the book yet, but earlier on she's talking about how when he went into Salt Lake, she was worried because he take the key. So if you didn't come back, she'd be left chained there.

Taylor Macy [01:38:10] Yeah, Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:38:11] I can't remember. It's been a long time since I read the book, but the book is really interesting.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:18] Who was fascinated by the documentary? Didn't really give that many details and is interesting.

Taylor Macy [01:38:25] Yeah, her book does a good job.

Alyssa Alexander [01:38:27] All right, let's go to the next clip then.

John Dehlin [01:38:29] So this is armchair expert, theoretically.

Alyssa Alexander [01:38:31] Who knows on the play of this.

John Dehlin [01:38:34] All right. It's about Brian David Mitchell.

Guest [01:38:40] And one of the things they brought up was a letter that Brian Mitchell had written. I think it was like to his mom or someone, but talking about what a good actor he was and how much he enjoyed acting and tricking people and convincing others of whatever he felt like. Right? Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:38:59] Oh, my God. Yeah. So this, to me makes it feel like perhaps he was less devout and was using religion kind of as a scapegoat. As. As a. Guys, we see the weaponization of religion coming up with him quite a bit. So, I mean, it's kind of unclear how much he believes it, but he does have. I don't know if it's charisma or what it is exactly, but he is able to convince people and is using that in his life.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:31] I feel like the worst narcissists just have like such an intuitive sense of how to manipulate people. And I feel like it's like Joseph Smith where, like, he knew that he was just drumming up the Book of Mormon himself, presumably. But then it's kind of like that weird blurry line where he sort of believed it, but also knew it was a scheme.

Alyssa Alexander [01:39:50] Yeah, you kind of start believing your own grandeur.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:53] Like the grandiosity is kind of the main thing.

Alyssa Alexander [01:39:56] So.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:56] Because it. When he talked about how after she would be raped, he would go pray for 45 minutes.

Alyssa Alexander [01:40:01] Oh, I forgot about that.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:02] While he's obviously not doing that for show. Well, you never know, but.

Alyssa Alexander [01:40:08] Yeah, but there is.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:09] He definitely seemed like a religious man. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:14] I mean, I've talked to John Turner endlessly about whether he thinks, as an ever Mormon scholar, of Joseph Smith, whether Joseph Smith believed he was indeed being led by God and even being told by God to enter into polygamous marriages. And John Turner tends to lean towards the hypothesis that Joseph was sincere and believed he was being led by God.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:38] I'm curious what you'll say because you are a psychologist. Like with those narcissistic types, doesn't the grandiosity kind of just lend itself to like, it's pretty easy for them to think anything grandiose about themselves. But then there also will be that like insecurity in there, you know, where it's. It's not like a full, I don't know, it's not like a full self brainwashing. Like they're aware that they're scheming to, but it's just all kind of in the name of these grandiose ideas that they have.

John Dehlin [01:41:08] Well, yeah, like Dan Vogel has, has put forward this idea of a pious fraud where Joseph Smith was pious. He believed in God, he believed in Jesus, he believed in his divine calling, and he still consciously fooled people. But the idea is you can actually find scriptures in the Bible where God fools people, where God lies to people, or God misleads people or encourages deception or genocide or whatever, or murder. So. So I think Joseph gleaned this idea that sometimes for the greater good you can lied or deceive, hide or deceive or manipulate and that God's okay with that if it leads people to belief or Christ.

Taylor Macy [01:41:58] Well, and then I would imagine too that when you start to accumulate power and influence, that it probably just reinforces this divine mission that you think you might have, even if there is lying or hiding involved.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:13] Yeah. And it's interesting because Joseph did all the treasure digging before. It's like, did he genuinely believe he would find buried treasure for people? But I feel like it's that narcissist thing of. I'm just using the word. I don't know if that's like the best word, but like, I feel like a cornerstone of that personality profile is just thinking that like whatever serves you, serves the divine sort of thing.

John Dehlin [01:42:34] Like, yeah, so no it's histrionic or narcissistic. That's all a thing. And it's very possible that Joseph believed he was seeing treasure underground and believed that the spirits were removing the treasure because the people around him weren't righteous enough.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:52] Or if he didn't just like whatever he's inclined to want to do is justified because like his what he wants is the most important thing in the universe. Like that's kind of the core of the grandiosity.

John Dehlin [01:43:05] And that's the great Christian slash religious dilemma is what is the Holy Ghost? What are promptings from God. If they're not our emotions and our

Taylor Macy [01:43:15] thoughts, it's whatever the prophet tells you

John Dehlin [01:43:18] or whatever God tells you in your histrionic narcissistic visions of grandeur. Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:24] I struggle to think Joseph Smith was just this like 100% believing.

John Dehlin [01:43:29] No, no, no, no, no. He, I think he had to have committed conscious fraud in almost any scenario. The question is whether he believed when he did perpetuate conscious fraud, it was for a greater good or sanctioned by God, by trickster, trickster God.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:45] And is it like a, a thing with those personality profiles where whatever lie you tell just kind of does become true to you?

John Dehlin [01:43:54] For sure. Like, like I've interviewed Scientologists that say that L. Ron Hubbard spent the last several years of his life in solitude, fearful that his, what, thetan count or whatever was not optimal and that he wasn't doing well in terms of the thetans or thetans that were possessing his body. You know what I mean?

Samantha Shelley [01:44:17] Yeah, good point.

John Dehlin [01:44:18] And it all started in science fiction

Samantha Shelley [01:44:20] and he knew it. Yeah, yeah, that's a good example.

John Dehlin [01:44:24] So, yeah. Coming to believe your own delusions is real for many.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:30] Yeah, actually, yeah. Relatable.

Alyssa Alexander [01:44:37] Yes. I guess I, I'm just kind of like spitballing about potential Mormon elements. So I think like we see of course within Mormonism what we're talking about right now about that like grandiosity, personality. And I'm also just wondering, like, I don't know how directly applicable this is for Elizabeth, but women and girls in particular are taught submissiveness and taught timidness and quietness. And I just think that's a really interesting kind of foil to Brian David Mitchell's like really wild Persona. Just that I think is kind of worth noting that.

Samantha Shelley [01:45:13] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:45:14] That like even within this construct that it seems like she is just like her, her panic reaction is, is more of like a fear based one, is a more submissive, quiet, not wanting to call out. One that I think of course there's. Because she's a child and her own personality. And I think there is some Mormon thought perfect girl culture is likely impacting that as well.

Being Spotted in Public and Religious Freedom Concerns

John Dehlin [01:45:46] Well, one of the most gut punching moments of the documentary is when for whatever reason Brian David Mitchell decides he's going to take Elizabeth and Wanda down into the valley and they show up at the public library. The Salt Lake Public Library. Who wants to. Alyssa, do you want to tell that story?

Alyssa Alexander [01:46:04] Yeah. Should we jump? Jump to that. So they, they go to Salt Lake to go to the library and, and they're wearing these robes which is just. It's just really interesting. And I think that kind of goes into kind of what we're also saying a moment ago about Brian. David Mitchell is like, grandiose person Persona that like, he was like, yeah, I'm just going to just waltz around Salt Lake City like a mile away from her home, and it will be fine. And he knew, he'd been down there. He knew that there are nationwide search parties going on, that her picture was posted everywhere. He understood the stakes of this, but he just, like, had so much confidence in.

Alyssa Alexander [01:46:40] In himself that he thought, I'm going to put a face covering on Elizabeth and I'm going to tell people that God doesn't want her face to be seen and everything's going to be fine. And, and he was right. In this scenario, they go down to the library to look at maps and her. And wands are, are covered and a detective comes by and, and is suspicious of them and kind of is pushing

John Dehlin [01:47:00] like, Like a homicide investigator.

Alyssa Alexander [01:47:02] Yeah, right. Like, he should be able. You'd think that he would be able to like, you know, be the, be the one with more power in this scenario. But he's saying, I need to see Elizabeth's face. There's a girl missing and she's. She doesn't speak out. She's terrified. I guess Wanda, like, grabs her leg under the table

Samantha Shelley [01:47:22] and it's.

Alyssa Alexander [01:47:23] It's just so devastating in this moment that, like, she's right there that she. If she just pulled her face down, she would be rescued. But the, the fear was so strong and just the idea of punishment if something fell through was, was so much that she just sat there. And he, the detective said, I need to see your face. Brian Mitchell said, no, Only her husband and her father can see her face as part of our religion. I just made up. And he was like, apparently he said, well, can I join your religion for a day? And he said, nope. And eventually the detective left and she was just right there, wait, just moments away from being rescued and just didn't. Didn't pan out. So I think that, yeah, it's just like another example of his wildness and

Samantha Shelley [01:48:12] her docility, also his ability to, like, intuit the truth because it, it kind of is the, the perfect disguise because it's so out there. You just wouldn't think someone would be hiding in plain sight like that. Right? Necessarily with posters all around the city. And it's such a tough one because it's like if you imagine a situation where an investigator is asking a Muslim woman to take off her hijab or whatever like that. That's uncomfortable to think about.

Alyssa Alexander [01:48:41] And also just like looking at the timing of this, which Elizabeth said in something just like added to people, like not really giving them as much attention is this was in 2002. It was shortly after 9 11. So people are on more uneasy with people wearing facial coverings and we're less willing to like talk to them and give people attention.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:04] So there was also a guy if I've lived downtown for years and there's this. I don't know if he's still around, but he basically wore that exact outfit and would always just be walking around downtown in it. And I feel like he. I don't remember if he was. If abortion was something he was talking about, but he just was in like that exact out.

Alyssa Alexander [01:49:24] Wow.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:26] But always alone. Just strange. And he would get off the train by my apartment just in this outfit. The like kind of around downtown all day. I'm like, what's the. Because it's not quite a Mormon temple outfit.

Alyssa Alexander [01:49:38] Right?

Samantha Shelley [01:49:39] What is it and why is other people still doing it?

John Dehlin [01:49:41] Wasn't it funny that barkeeper, he's like, oh yeah, it was 2002. People walk around Salt Lake in robes. He like the barkeeper wasn't paced by it. Right?

Alyssa Alexander [01:49:50] Yeah, yeah, that was because the barkeeper

John Dehlin [01:49:52] saw them too walk into the bar.

Taylor Macy [01:49:55] But another instance of for me, not me, but with, yeah, they can't have any alcohol, but I can.

John Dehlin [01:50:02] But Brian David Mitchell could.

Alyssa Alexander [01:50:04] Yeah, his like the bartender's like little story about like, yeah, we had great acid. I'm like, why did you include this in the documentary? This is such an odd, like mushroom

John Dehlin [01:50:16] tea, mushroom, mushroom team.

Alyssa Alexander [01:50:18] It's great. Like we only have an hour and a half. There's so much of Elizabeth story. But like let's spend like a full minute talking about the mushroom team.

Samantha Shelley [01:50:26] It's going to just highlight the wackiness of the party and why you probably, if people are in costume, you're like, maybe it's a kink thing. Maybe like, who knows.

John Dehlin [01:50:35] I do want to say that I do think that, you know, in 2026, I think we're all looking at the democratic experiment that is America to try and see where, what have we done right, what have we done wrong, where have we overreached? And I do think there's an argument to be made that we have created excessive protections for religions in America. The fact that the Mormon church is worth $500 billion but remains a tax exempt organization when it's clearly a super wealthy corporation. And the fact that this murder homicide investigator was afraid to like, look under the mask of a girl because some kook bearded weirdo walking around with two women who were veiled faces in 2002 said, sorry, you can't.

John Dehlin [01:51:28] Religious freedom, I think. And by the way, it's. Who is it? That's one of the largest advocates for and lobbyists for the protection of religious rights in the United States. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, along with Scientology and the Jehovah's Witnesses. And so, like, I think it's a problem.

John Dehlin [01:51:47] And this is an example of it being a problem, along with all the boy scout and child abuse instances that somehow don't even reach the police because of all the protections we have about the. The clergy. You know, penitent privilege, like, way too many protections. And the Mormon church not only benefits from these protections, but pays for them and buys off politicians and legislatures and Supreme Court justices to perpetuate those protections.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:19] And it does feel like religious freedom always comes above child rights. Like, the number of evangelicals in America that. That teach, like, hitting children from when they're babies as like a part of their core doctrine. And then all of these, like, church funded homeschooling organizations that are lobbying to basically just make it even harder for like, teachers, for example, to like, protect kids. Like, there's laws or there was a law that said you couldn't like, pull a kid out of school and homeschool them if you're like, under investigation for child abuse. So I actually can't remember all the specifics, so I might be saying that wrong. But like, the. The homeschooling and like, hitting your kids evangelical world is so disturbing and like, so much more powerful than I feel like we're talking about.

John Dehlin [01:53:13] Yeah, absolutely.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:14] Like, why would we allow people to hit their kids when we know for a fact at this point that it's psychologically damaging to them? Because religion.

John Dehlin [01:53:21] Well, the Old Testament has those clobber verses. The Old Testament is for beating your children. Yeah, it just is. Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:29] What was the country that just made it illegal to teach your kids that they're going to hell? Is it Germany?

John Dehlin [01:53:34] Oh, wow. Interesting.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:35] I didn't hear that basically saying threatening a kid with hell is now considered child abuse. Yeah, it is. Love that.

John Dehlin [01:53:41] Yeah. All right, so I guess there's a video on the library Count encounter.

Alyssa Alexander [01:53:48] Should we play that really quick from her perspective? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:50] Okay. This is a gut punch for me. Yeah, yeah.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [01:53:55] The.

Video Clip 3 [01:53:56] The Emanuel, he explains to the cop that Their religion forbids her to show her face. That the only people that are ever allowed to see her face are her father and her future husband.

Video Clip 3 [01:54:08] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [01:54:09] And the police officer said, fine.

Video Clip 3 [01:54:11] Yeah. I mean, he pushed. He was like, well, can I just convert to your religion for a day? Oh, like, if you just let me see her face. You know, anyone else who calls, I can, you know, I can assure them that, you know, she is who you say she is. Like, just let me see. I mean, he did push. Like, he did try.

Taylor Macy [01:54:34] I want to follow that up by saying that she goes on to talk about the guilt that he felt over this interaction. And I believe at the time of this interview, I think he's passed away. I think she goes on to say that he passed away. Um, because I think that is a common question for people hearing about this scenario. Be like, she was right there. Why didn't you push more? And it. It breaks my heart for this officer in this case, because he was. He was stuck between a rock and a hard place and was trying to do the right thing. But, you know, it ended up just not going the way that the world had hoped.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:11] But. And it's kind of the kind of situation that you could imagine ending up being a Supreme Court case. Like, it's not, like, an easy. Again, when you. When you think of it with, like, Islam or a more established religion, it's like, that is a really tough one. Like, I actually don't know what the precedents are there, but that could easily be, like, a massive thing. Also, someone said something about me conflating homeschooling.

John Dehlin [01:55:34] Yeah, we have a viewer listener that feels like Samantha said that home homeschoolers beat their children.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:40] It was not conflating homeschooling with hitting kids, but it's a lot of the homeschooling associations that are, like, rallying for these weaker laws that basically make kids, like, less protected. So obviously people can homeschool and not hit their kids. I'm just saying there's, like. There's, like, abuse is more scary as well when a kid doesn't even have access to, like, the wider world, like, in school and, you know, homeschooling. Plus abuse is obviously, like, magnifies.

Alyssa Alexander [01:56:11] And I think there's. There are many, like, homeschool curriculums that are based in, like, Christian nationalism.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:16] Yeah. It does seem like most. Most efforts to homeschool in America tend to be Christian nationalists.

Alyssa Alexander [01:56:22] And I've seen some, like, within that that do kind of, like, promote. Even if they'll say they don't promote hitting, they promote discipline. Discipline. That. That is physical. Yeah, to an extent. That is. That is hitting.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:35] But they just that like breaking a child's will kind of line of thinking that can happen in religion.

John Dehlin [01:56:42] Well, I'm just going to say that. That we did an episode on Mormon stories podcast, episode 2057. It's with Camille Lewis. She was an independent fundamentalist Baptist. She was a professor at Bob Jones University. And they allow corporal punishment in their preschool at Bob Jones University.

John Dehlin [01:57:09] And the reason why she parted with their church is because as a professor at Bob Jones University, she needed the daycare at the university to watch her kid. And they wanted her to sign a waiver giving them permission to beat her children if they so chose. And she refused to sign that waiver and she lost her job at Bob Jones University. And I'm not saying that's in any stretch, all evangelical Christians, but there absolutely is a branch of fundamentalist Baptist, the IFBs, who are prone to homeschool and who are prone to believe that it's sacred to use corporal punishment on your kids. So not all homeschoolers, not all evangelical Christians, not all Baptists, but tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of independent fundamentalist Baptists who also homeschool their kids. Check out episode 2057 of Mormon Stories, Camille Lewis. Julia will include that in the show notes.

Alyssa Alexander [01:58:09] Yeah, and this was just kind of another aside, just a bonus Mormon content moment. But just that I thought was. Was interesting. Ed Smart said that about six months after Elizabeth had been taken, that he overheard some people in the temple, in the Mormon Temple say to each other, like, can you believe that Ed Smart still believes that Elizabeth is still alive? And I just, I think that kind of goes to show, you know, Ed, just throughout this documentary, he's such a sweet character. He just shows just so much love and devotion to Elizabeth and belief that she will be rescued even when everybody else has stopped.

Alyssa Alexander [01:58:52] But I just imagine that to be especially heartbreaking to hear in the Mormon Temple within, like your most sacred space from your community, from people that like, you're hoping are on the same team as you, losing hope. And yeah, I just thought that was a. Was probably a really difficult moment.

John Dehlin [01:59:08] Absolutely.

Mary Catherine Identifies the Mitchells and Rescue

Alyssa Alexander [01:59:10] Okay, so the case continues where I think at about six months, ish, now maybe a little further. So they, they. Mary Catherine has identified who Emmanuel is. They've drawn up a sketch of him, and eventually the family just decides to release the image, even though the police say that it's a dangerous idea, which we touched on a moment ago. They say, you know what, we're going to do a Hail Mary. We're going to release this. We don't think it's Richard Reese. We think that she's out there and we think that we really believe our daughter. We believe this eyewitness account. And when the image is released, Brian David Mitchell's brother in law sees the image and recognizes his brother and calls in and they're able to get the name.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:57] Can I ask it? Maybe a dumb question. Well, I don't know. How are they able to hear a nine year old's account of what a man looks like and be sketching and then have that resemble the man?

Taylor Macy [02:00:07] Well, they, I, I want to say they also had input from family that were there as he was working on the home.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:15] Okay.

Taylor Macy [02:00:15] Still, I can't imagine trying to draw something based off people's words. But I think they had more than just her description. From what I understand that makes more sense.

John Dehlin [02:00:23] I wonder that a lot about police sketches, but they're a thing. So. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:00:28] And, and Elizabeth made a comment that she felt like the sketch was not very close to how he actually looked, but it must have been close enough for the brother in law to notice.

Taylor Macy [02:00:35] Yeah, I think that with the context of, of the mountains and that kind of thing, definitely.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:40] Was he going by Emmanuel when he worked on the house?

Taylor Macy [02:00:43] Well, not when he worked on the house, but his brother said that he would go by the name Emmanuel. So I think that was, that was another key factor.

Alyssa Alexander [02:00:52] Brian David Mitchell's ex wife reached out at this point as well and confirmed that he was hyper religious and, and dangerous. And so I think that at this point they felt really confident that he had her and that she was in some sort of danger, but that he was probably the guy. So now they really are setting out saying everybody needs to find him in particular. And they had their eyes on the suspect after she was almost found in the library. This spooked Brian David Mitchell, understandably. And so they fled to San Francisco, which ended up being San Diego, which ended up being really important in the case because. Across state lines for child sex. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:38] Yes.

Alyssa Alexander [02:01:39] So this ended up playing a big role in the trial. And then, and this I think is where I'm really proud of Elizabeth. Well, I think we all are. They were wanting to go to another big city and Elizabeth said that she suspected that if they left somewhere else that like it would be even more difficult for her to be found, that she had the highest likelihood of being found in Salt Lake because they were

John Dehlin [02:01:59] going to go Back East. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:02:01] Yeah. And by then it had been longer and she could just blend in with everybody. So she.

John Dehlin [02:02:07] This is great.

Alyssa Alexander [02:02:09] Was really appealing to bride David Mitchell's ego. She really knew her audience and said, like, you are such an amazing prophet. You are working through God. God has told me that you are really divine. And he has also told me that we need to go to Salt Lake. And he believed that she was finally like part of his religion and was just like so flattered that by what she was saying that he was like, all right, let's do it, let's go. Let's. God told you I'm awesome. Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:02:38] If God told you we need to get Salt Lake, you know, it makes perfect sense.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:42] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:02:43] And this really was a game changing moment because they will be found after that. But yeah, I mean, I just think it's amazing that, that Elizabeth had like the intuition as, you know, a young child to be like, I'm going to, you know, use your manipulative tactics. Instagram going to like use this like religious language against you.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:01] Really perceptive, her saying that.

Alyssa Alexander [02:03:03] I know, she's such a badass. Yeah, she really is incredible as a

Taylor Macy [02:03:08] 14 year old girl to be able to do that is remarkable.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:11] What do you think made him not, other than his ego, like not see through it and be willing to go back to Salt Lake? Because you would imagine that he would recognize, like, that's great. But do you think it's because he was from there, so he was probably finding it difficult to navigate a new area. And so it was like, I guess it would be easier to be back where I know. So I was just like, how, how did that work?

John Dehlin [02:03:31] Yeah, well, I just, I think, I think at least some narcissists are vulnerable to flattery.

Taylor Macy [02:03:38] Yeah. Well, and after she hadn't engaged in it for the entirety of the kidnapping to finally say. Because I think the context she gives is she had just drank so much beer that she'd thrown up and woke up in her own vomit and used that as a way of saying to him, I now realize my own nothingness. You are, you know, really used it as an opportunity to just stroke his ego and reiterate some of the messaging that he had just continuously told her.

Alyssa Alexander [02:04:05] So.

Taylor Macy [02:04:05] Yeah, I think it was this first instance of flattery. He felt like he'd succeeded in, in converting her to the cause or to the religion, perhaps.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:15] And, and I guess she'd been out in public with him several times now and she wasn't trying to run away. So her.

Alyssa Alexander [02:04:20] Right.

Taylor Macy [02:04:21] Yeah, she Wasn't bound at that point.

Alyssa Alexander [02:04:23] So it was, it was working to an extent. And I mean, I guess Utah mountains are just. He was like, well, we, we've been able to stay hidden for so long, I think he probably just got a little bit cocky and thought it would be fine. But yeah, such a, so, so impressive that she was this, this far along in enough of a headspace to be able to advocate for herself in this way. Just. I think, yeah, she, she's just incredibly impressive.

John Dehlin [02:04:48] When we talk about her impressiveness and we're now touching on something we started talking about. Like, I would have expected that at some point she started believing in him being an actual prophet, but apparently she says she never did. Is that what y' all are saying? And if that's true, the fact that she went along and played the long game, never believing in him, always knowing she was being abused, but that she used wisdom and wit and patience to not get herself killed, but instead to fool him to put them back in, in the path of getting this 14 year old girl, that's just legendary.

Alyssa Alexander [02:05:31] Yeah, truly, it really is.

Guest [02:05:32] Truly.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:33] I do think it says like something great about her parents. Like that she had, she had 14, like healthy years under her belt.

John Dehlin [02:05:42] Yeah. You know, didn't she say she never doubted her dad's love or something like that?

Samantha Shelley [02:05:46] Yeah, yeah.

Taylor Macy [02:05:47] And she did comment on a number of occasions just how she wanted to plan her rescue and she wanted to guarantee that it would work. And so like if they were coming down from the mountains when they were still in Utah and they were to pass runners or hikers, in her mind, because it sounds like she gets the question a lot of, well, why didn't you run? And her answer seems to be, I wanted to guarantee that it would be a success. And so I think, John, you nailed it by saying she was playing the long game and thinking, how can, how can I guarantee that this will work? Which is so impressive for a person that age to be able to think that way, especially under such duress.

Samantha Shelley [02:06:29] It does seem like he was able to. What's the word? I don't know. Instill more fear in her over time. Like I feel like right at the beginning, if she was in that police instant in the library, she probably would have said something.

Alyssa Alexander [02:06:42] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:06:43] But by that point, because even when she was eventually found by the police, it seems like she was kind of reluctant because she didn't fully trust it. So it was good that those police kind of pushed it. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:06:53] So it seems like perhaps her brainwashing wasn't the. He was a prophet, and then he

Taylor Macy [02:06:57] just, you know, was just that he was powerful and could threaten and potentially kill.

Samantha Shelley [02:07:02] Yeah. And nine months like that probably would have got worse if she would have been like. It seems like she was kind of on the cusp of maybe losing those faculties more and more.

Taylor Macy [02:07:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:11] I don't want to give too much attention to a potential bad actor or non credible commenter, but judge for yourselves. Robert Wing, get rights. David Mitchell and Wanda did not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Saying all of these three were Mormon may be technically true, but is misleading. What do y' all say in response?

Taylor Macy [02:07:35] I mean, if the article on the Tribune said that Brian David Mitchell was acting in the temple ceremonies in the Salt Lake Temple, we would have had to open a memorial.

John Dehlin [02:07:42] He was a temple worker, right?

Taylor Macy [02:07:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:45] But I mean, I guess it could have been possible that by the time he's walking around in robes with the beard, he had been excommunicated for adultery or abuse or apostasy.

Guest [02:07:55] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:07:56] He was definitely a member of the church at one point.

John Dehlin [02:07:58] I mean, he was raised Mormon and a believing Mormon.

Taylor Macy [02:08:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:01] And like, I wish I could have a conversation, I guess, with Roger, but he definitely believed Joseph Smith was inspired in a prophet of God. He definitely believed in the Book of Mormon, and his polygamy came from Joseph Smith.

Taylor Macy [02:08:14] And he was raised by one of his canons that he had. Was it seven. Seven works of scripture that. Some of which were his, but the Book of Mormon was one of them.

John Dehlin [02:08:22] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:08:23] Yeah. I think the discussion on whether Brian David Mitchell was an active believer at that point is less interesting than looking at how the influence that it did have on him, which it did. We know that it did have on him. And Wanda, I think that finding, like, the specific details of, like, where his faith was at feels less. Less interesting than, like, what this says about the larger Mormon culture.

John Dehlin [02:08:45] And was he raised in Mormonism? And was he raised with the belief in Joseph Smith that polygamy is divine, that God speaks to people through their emotions? Was he influenced by his Mormon upbringing? Roger, I think, is the interesting, relevant question here, not whether technically his membership had been canceled.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:06] It's like, we all know that the church didn't support this. The church would never be okay with this. No one's arguing that. But if a brain is forged in the fires of Mormonism, there's no separating it. And whether the consequences were unintended or not.

John Dehlin [02:09:18] Yeah. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:09:21] Okay. So they say, let's return to Salt Lake. So they do. And and from everything that I've heard, it sounds like it was pretty quickly when they returned that she was able to be rescued. So they're walking around Salt Lake, and he says at the time, like, once we go back into the mountains, we're going to be in there. Because he was still a little bit nervous about her getting found. And he was like, we're not gonna let you get back anymore. So here's your one last walk downtown in. In our robes.

John Dehlin [02:09:51] They're in Sandy, right?

Alyssa Alexander [02:09:53] Yeah, they're in Sandy. They're walking down State Street. Just. Just wild that. That they were just out and about like this. But a caller recognized him, called the police and said, I think. I think we've found the guy. And multiple police officers came down and approached them and said, we think this is Elizabeth. And they, like, asked her, and she wouldn't respond. They asked her multiple times, and her response, finally, the closest thing to, like, a confession of disclosing who she was was she said, thou sayest. And he said, great, we'll take that as a yes, and took her to the police station, and she was rescued from there.

John Dehlin [02:10:34] What'd y' all think of Thou sayeth? She felt like she had to justify that a little bit. Yeah.

Taylor Macy [02:10:40] Yeah. And hearing the context makes sense. Right. Like Sam said, you know, was living in so much fear and at that moment in time wondering, is this going to work, or am I going to have to go back with them? And if I do, I don't want to be punished. And so her thought with using those words was, if they overhear me, they're not necessarily going to make the deduction that I've admitted who I am. Instead, it seems like I'm still keeping up the facade. By the way, it looks like Brian Mitchell and Wanda were both temple workers. She played the organ. She was an organist in the temple. So they.

Alyssa Alexander [02:11:12] Feels relevant.

Taylor Macy [02:11:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:15] We should note that thou saith are the words of Jesus, Right?

Alyssa Alexander [02:11:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:20] When Jesus, when people would say, you, you claim you're the Son of God, is that true? Jesus's response was, thou sayest.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:27] Really?

John Dehlin [02:11:28] Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:31] That does make me think again that she was losing herself by that point to not. Because even at 14, you should be able to recognize, like, well, these policemen have guns and, you know, I'm safe now.

John Dehlin [02:11:43] But I think she was worried that, like, at the library, somehow Brian David Mitchell could do is, these are not the droids you're looking for. And then she'd get beat or raped. More back at the tent, I'm guessing

Samantha Shelley [02:11:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:11:59] So once she's rescued, this is. This is when she talks a little bit about her difficulty in. In describing what happened. And I think like, yeah, trauma informed care has come a long way in past couple of decades. But yeah, let's play the next clip and she'll chat about that.

John Dehlin [02:12:16] All right. This is actually a clip from Netflix kind of extra, I think. Right?

Alyssa Alexander [02:12:23] Yeah, they had, like a corresponding podcast

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [02:12:26] after I was rescued when I was being interviewed by those two psychiatrists. Like, I went in there and they're like, okay, so what happened? And I was like, well, I was molested. And they're like, okay, but can you explain it? And then I was like, well, I was raped. And they're like, well, yeah, but can you describe the rape? And I was like, well, he forced himself inside of me. And they're like, we need you to say exact body parts. Can you please use the anatomically correct names? And so then I had to get to a point where I said, he forced his penis in my vagina repeatedly. And that, for me was just so embarrassing and, like, difficult. I mean, for one, using the correct body part names just because, I mean,

Video Clip 4 [02:13:13] they were your private.

Video Clip 4 [02:13:15] Like, they weren't penis and vagina in. In my house growing up, they were your privates.

John Dehlin [02:13:24] Any comments on that? We didn't say, you know, urinate. We said tinkle. You know, we. We didn't say penis and vagina in my house. I don't know. That's probably not uniquely Mormon.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:38] No, we didn't in my house either. Yeah, but I do think that you

John Dehlin [02:13:41] were raised not lds.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:42] Yeah, not lds. But it does obscure abuse when you don't teach kids the proper words, like making them feel like you have to obscure the names. I just, I think that's a really bad call. I feel like society's changing its mind on that now.

Alyssa Alexander [02:13:58] But, yeah, I think the official recommendation is to teach your children the anatomically correct terms and to use that. And that can help preventive use at least describe it.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:08] But.

Alyssa Alexander [02:14:09] But yeah, I mean, I. I think just a layer that. That is so difficult about this is she talks about quite a bit is like the embarrassment and the shame. I mean, I think we talk a lot about, like, the pain and the sadness and the fear, but I think what is an overwhelming emotion that she refers to is like, is the embarrassment.

Taylor Macy [02:14:34] She's more concerned with other people's perception of having to.

Alyssa Alexander [02:14:37] Yeah.

Taylor Macy [02:14:38] Use those words.

Alyssa Alexander [02:14:39] And I think that comes from both, like, a really purity culture, conservative upbringing, and being a child and I think those two just really come to a head in that. In after everything that she has been through for nine months and. And we talk about her. Her bravery and just the repeated rapes over and over again and being chained to a log or stump or whatever. And then for her to. Like that. Then suddenly she was like a little girl again, embarrassed to say the word penis. Like, it's. It's just. I think that really kind of hits home too, where the severity of where she was at.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:15] Shocking that they had men do that interview as well.

Alyssa Alexander [02:15:18] Right. Yeah.

Taylor Macy [02:15:19] And I think she mentions that probably due a lot to the advocacy work that she's done that now in situations like that, they require like a. I'm not going to speak very well on it, but a female psychologist who is trauma informed to be able to at least be in on those questions if a man has to come and do any type of. For sure investigating.

John Dehlin [02:15:45] Yeah, for sure.

Alyssa Alexander [02:15:48] Yeah. And she says, when I came back, I was scared of men. I was scared of a lot of things. And I still didn't hear anyone speak about being raped or being abused. Just it was not a common conversation. So I felt a lot of shame and embarrassment around what happened, even though I knew it wasn't my fault.

John Dehlin [02:16:03] Yeah, makes sense.

Alyssa Alexander [02:16:07] And she talks. I don't remember if we include anything about this or not, but she. She talks at one point about how, like, meeting with the two psychiatrists was particularly re. Triggering because they were like two men and she knew that they were religious, I think lds, but like, kind of like re. Traumatized her from being with Brian David Mitchell, who, like, was in like, such a religious headspace to have to talk about this with the two men. Yeah. Anyway. And so I think that also just plays a little bit of a part in her relationship to faith, which we'll get to in a second.

Trial, Sentencing, and the Long Road to Justice

John Dehlin [02:16:40] I was stunned that the trial took 10 years.

Guest [02:16:44] Why?

Samantha Shelley [02:16:45] Like.

John Dehlin [02:16:46] Well, I think you mentioned in the notes that part of it is he claims an insanity defense, which is convenient when you're. When you're not caught, you're. You're just acting under faith and you're religious and you get protected by religion. And then when you're caught, well, you're not acting under religion, you're insane.

Taylor Macy [02:17:05] And that's why I wanted to include that clip of her referencing this letter, whether it was to his mom or another relative of him saying what a great actor he was. You know, I think it's especially relevant to the cases that went on. And it sounds like. Like it was when she alludes to it. That just wasn't a fair claim to make for him and his team.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:26] Well, and I feel like anyone who would do that is insane to whatever degree. But it's like, but this is what the justice system is like. If we're going to put anyone in prison for those things, you kind of have to put everyone in.

Taylor Macy [02:17:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:38] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:38] Really?

John Dehlin [02:17:39] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:40] Like he's not going to be a good member of society.

John Dehlin [02:17:43] Fair. But how excruciating for her to have to endure a 10 year trial. Like I had a two year, two and a half year legal thing and it was torturous.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:54] Yeah.

Taylor Macy [02:17:55] Well, and then to come up with the threat of the statute of limitations too and feel the pressure there of saying, what if this does just end up going away without justice. Yeah. Which I think is another huge impact of her work to now that that doesn't apply in child sexual violence instances.

Samantha Shelley [02:18:12] How does pleading insanity buy you that many years?

John Dehlin [02:18:15] There's probably other stuff too.

Samantha Shelley [02:18:17] You know what, you just like do legal rigmarole for so long, which is

Alyssa Alexander [02:18:21] just, I mean, I think maybe that just kind of goes to show like how little care goes to so many victims that she was, had. Had all the resources. You know, she had an affluent family. We knew exactly who kidnapped her. She was, it was a national story and it still took 10 years for there to be any sort of justice. Like that's part I think, of why like so few people will, will report and will come forward because any sort of like, justice in the legal system is just so rare. And it still took a decade for this. When they knew exactly what had happened. Nobody disbelieved him. They, they saw all the things that, you know, she was a child, she was literally kidnapped and, and she still almost didn't. Almost. Almost. He was almost free.

Taylor Macy [02:19:11] And the other heartbreaking element is if you add in, I mean, obviously the difficulty of just a secular justice system, but when you also add in the element of sexual abuse cases that occur within the church, where it goes to the church headquarters, the church legal team first before it even can get to a point where it could be a topic on a secular level. And it's just another added layer of when you don't have the resources and the time that victims. And obviously this is different because it's not something that happened within the church necessarily, but it's just heartbreaking to think of all of those victims that are just buried in the barriers that are amplified because of how the church handles and structures sexual abuse claims.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:56] I Googled some of the reasons why it took so long. There. There were the competency hearings to decide whether he was competent to stand trial. There was jurisdictional conflict where the federal government was supposed to try it for trafficking reasons. He came over state lines, they drugged their feet. And so the federal trials delayed. The local trials, apparently, or something to that effect. Wanda Barzee had to have her own separate competency findings. So there are multiple people involved. That Mitchell acted in a manipulative, squirrely way that. That. That drew. Drew things out. There were a gazillion appeals and motions. Yeah. Even simple legal matters take two and a half, three years.

Taylor Macy [02:20:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:43] Sometimes more. And that's just simple. It's not murder cases or child trafficking cases. And then. Yeah. It mentions the complexity of mental health law. You know, so those are some of the reasons. So.

Samantha Shelley [02:20:57] And it says a lot. Because it's like she was, by America's standards, the perfect victim. And like, they still hung, you know, she had to go through that for 10 years. Like, she wasn't able to get that closure for 10 whole years, even with all those resources being the perfect victim, you know?

John Dehlin [02:21:11] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:21:12] And it still is.

John Dehlin [02:21:13] Like 99 of rape victims don't even report their perpetrator to the police because they know that they'll, you know, it'll take forever and they'll probably lose.

Taylor Macy [02:21:25] Right.

Alyssa Alexander [02:21:26] Yeah.

Taylor Macy [02:21:26] And drain their resources in the process.

John Dehlin [02:21:28] Their own.

Taylor Macy [02:21:29] Their own reason. Yeah. Whatever they have.

John Dehlin [02:21:30] Yeah. Super sorry we need legal reform, but whatever. Yeah. The sky's blue.

Alyssa Alexander [02:21:41] Okay, so. So let's chat a little bit about what happened afterward. So. So eventually, I guess the trial, he was in prison. What was it, 15 years to life? No, life.

John Dehlin [02:21:51] He got life without parole.

Taylor Macy [02:21:53] And she, I think Wanda Barzi was

Alyssa Alexander [02:21:54] 15 and she's out, but she went

Samantha Shelley [02:21:57] back in, I think when she violated

Taylor Macy [02:21:59] Pearl, she actually came through. My father in law works at a halfway house, and she came through the halfway house and. And I believe was near a playground.

Alyssa Alexander [02:22:10] Yeah. She showed up at Sugar House Park a couple months ago.

Taylor Macy [02:22:12] That's what it was. And was. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:13] Violating her parole recently. A few months ago, yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:22:16] Like very recently.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:17] So she was out for like seven years or something. And then.

Taylor Macy [02:22:20] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:22:20] Because she did a lot in 2018. Isn't that creepy?

John Dehlin [02:22:23] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:22:23] Anyway, so I wonder why that happened. Yeah. Elizabeth talks about how, you know, how difficult it has been to process everything, that she's had a really supportive family, but that was a really big part. She says that her mom was really supportive and helpful. She was notably not in the documentary much she's mostly wanted to just leave the past in the past at this point. I think that has been her kind of like trauma response, is wanting to talk about it less. Whereas, like Elizabeth and Ed have the Elizabeth Smart foundation and they do a lot of advocacy work.

Alyssa Alexander [02:23:00] Yeah. So she talks about how she began speaking out and is trying to find something good that comes from it. She said everything that happened couldn't take away from my worth. Those monsters couldn't take that away from me.

Alyssa Alexander [02:23:11] And I just think it sounds like, I mean that's, that's a lifetime of trauma. It's a process. But she has really trying to use that as a way to build advocacy and continue to, to support survivors. So we have a. Oh, I guess do we have anything we want to say about, about that?

John Dehlin [02:23:26] A lot of people. There was even an article about why wasn't Lois, Elizabeth Smart's mom, involved in the documentary. And yeah, that, that, that reason was given, that she just wanted to put it behind her. I think it's more complicated than that. Something that's worth mentioning is that just in the past five, 10 years, Ed Smart came out as gay very courageously. And I believe, you know, that ended his marriage to Lois. I. Because I'm friends with that. He invited me to his wedding. So I was at his wedding where he married his partner. That was a joyous marriage in Camas, which has been made famous by Ballerina Farm.

John Dehlin [02:24:07] That's where Ed Smart was married to his current husband. But so happy for Ed. But my sense is that was not a harmonious end to their marriage. And so I'm also sure that Lois's non involvement might have had something to do with all of that as well. Because I don't think Lois took Ed's coming out very well. She's really orthodox and devout Mormon.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:35] That's got to be so insane to reckon with your daughter having that happen to you and then being a part of the Mormon Church still.

John Dehlin [02:24:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially if she knows anything about Joseph Smith.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:46] Yeah, she must know that now. Maybe in 2002 she didn't.

John Dehlin [02:24:49] But I mean, again, check out my interview with David ARCHULETA because again, February 17, we're releasing it. David Archuleta serves this mission, like 2011, 2012 timeframe. And then he knows he's gay on his mission because he has attraction to missionary companions, comes home, Right? What happens as soon as he comes home? The November 2015 policy comes out and then like Dan Reynolds and Tyler Glenn and me come out with that believer documentary.

John Dehlin [02:25:25] And through all of that David Archuleta was just like, I didn't watch it. I didn't process it. I wasn't angry. It didn't question my faith. Because why? Because as a believing Mormon, even though he was gay and struggling with it, he tuned all of that out because he was in such a bubble. And he went. He was in a ward with Dan Reynolds, like in Hollywood before Dan Reynolds ever became famous. But he wasn't interested enough to watch Dan Reynolds documentary all the way through about being gay and Mormon. Like, the Mormon bubble is real and profound. So I guess we have to cut Lois some slack.

Alyssa Alexander [02:26:06] And I imagine, like, people's trauma responses are going to be so different for her. For her, it sounds like. I mean, I would imagine that having faith in religion is like a reason to cling to, to give some meaning. I do remember in Elizabeth's first book, which, again, it's been like a decade since I've read it. I should have reread it before this, but alas. But she, like, said at the time when she published it, she was still, like, really active from my impression. And she was talking in it about how, like, her relationship to God, her relationship to the church, really helped her come through it.

Elizabeth's Recovery, Faith, and Life After Captivity

Alyssa Alexander [02:26:40] And I am really glad that she had that. Like, she talks about how. Well, one thing that I thought was really notable that kind of is a little bit contradictory to Mormon theology. And she said that she didn't believe that God had that, like, preordained for her. That, like, who's. I mean, of course, so much of Mormon doctrine is like, everything happens to you for a reason. And like, God wanted this happen to you. Everything that you go through is, Is. Is from God. But she pretty quickly deconstructed that and said, God did not want this happen to me. That it was because of, like, Brian David Mitchell's own agency that this happened.

Alyssa Alexander [02:27:15] This wasn't supposed to happen to me. This wasn't like, my God didn't send me to Earth to be like, and you're going to be kidnapped and raped for nine months. And so I think, like, even from a Mormon perspective, she was able to deconstruct that. But then she did really use, like, her relationship to God as, like, a connection to get herself out of it.

Alyssa Alexander [02:27:34] And so perhaps Lois is. Feels that connection is her, like, way of processing. But I guess we can kind of use that as. Oh, did you want to say something?

Samantha Shelley [02:27:43] Well, I was just thinking, just thinking about how most Mormon women will become mothers while they're still in girlhood. And, like, that alone is such a massive thing. And just imagining that she's at least ostensibly got this perfect woman family. They've got this massive house, big happy family. She's probably still in girlhood too, psychologically, because most people are at that age and then you have that happen to your daughter and then later you find out your husband's gay. Like what a crazy. Like, I mean that would just shatter like your entire psychological foundation. So I. It makes sense that the church would sort of stay standing as like the last remaining structure.

Alyssa Alexander [02:28:21] Has to be something.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:24] Lois and Ed and Elizabeth probably all prayed to God saying save us. And she was saved. So that's going to be reinforcing to faith potentially. Right.

Alyssa Alexander [02:28:35] Yeah. And that like God worked through Mary Catherine to remember Brian David Mitchell. Like I'm sure there's a lot there and it did.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:41] There was some genuinely interesting like miracles. Yeah.

Taylor Macy [02:28:47] And Ed's vision and.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:48] Yeah. What's the common of water thing that

Taylor Macy [02:28:50] was in the book? Just where she was so thirsty and found a cup of water.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:53] Oh, I haven't got.

Taylor Macy [02:28:54] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:55] But yeah, Ed, like knowing that she was still alive somehow.

Taylor Macy [02:28:58] Right. Right. I guess.

John Dehlin [02:28:59] I mean, it's a miracle she was found.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:01] Yeah. It doesn't normally happen.

Taylor Macy [02:29:02] It really is.

John Dehlin [02:29:03] She wasn't killed by the crazy guy.

Alyssa Alexander [02:29:05] Right. But I guess just kind of wanted to address. So. So she's been like, had been really vocal about her relationship to Mormonism and like was. Was a very active member and was so devout at the time of the kidnapping. And her family seemed just like the, the perfect Mormon family. Her relationship to religion has shifted a little bit. She hasn't talked about it over the years.

John Dehlin [02:29:29] I've tried to interview her.

Guest [02:29:30] Oh.

John Dehlin [02:29:31] And you know, there were many, many years where she was still, if not an orthodox Mormon. You know, she was temple married as I understand it. I think she was raising her. Her kids as orthodox Mormons, at least for a time. She was at Ed Smart's wedding. And I don't know how originally supportive she was of her dad coming out as gay, but my sense is, is that I know for sure Ed lost his Mormon faith.

Alyssa Alexander [02:29:59] How long ago was this?

John Dehlin [02:30:02] A few years ago.

Taylor Macy [02:30:03] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:30:03] I think right around Covet or right before COVID I think long ago,

Alyssa Alexander [02:30:09] within

John Dehlin [02:30:09] five or six years. Ed reached out to me when he was thinking about coming out around 2018, I believe. 2017, 2018. And then came out within a year or two of that. But yeah, I don't think Ed. I don't want to speak for Ed, but my sense is Ed doesn't believe anymore. And that. I don't know how Elizabeth originally felt about her dad coming out as gay and marrying a man. She was at the wedding. She did act supportive. But I do. I can't imagine how her dad leaving the church and coming out as gay has not affected her. It has affected her.

Taylor Macy [02:30:50] Well. And she says it all came out at once. It was like an early phone call. And he just says, I'm divorcing your mom. I'm gay, and I'm leaving the church. Just all in one fell swoop. And. And yeah, I'm sure that has at least been a factor over the years.

John Dehlin [02:31:05] For sure. Sorry, Lyssa.

Guest [02:31:07] No, no.

Alyssa Alexander [02:31:07] Great. So we just have a little clip of what she said about her current relationship to Faith.

John Dehlin [02:31:14] All right. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:31:15] From the Netflix.

John Dehlin [02:31:16] Let's go ahead and play podcast.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [02:31:21] How's your relationship with Faith these days?

Video Clip 5 [02:31:27] Just because someone tells me something doesn't

Video Clip 5 [02:31:29] mean I believe it.

Video Clip 5 [02:31:31] I don't want to say I'm a cynical person because I don't think I am, but that also doesn't mean that I just believe blindly anymore. How is it with raising a family and still being in Utah and all

Video Clip 5 [02:31:42] of that, how is that for you?

Video Clip 5 [02:31:44] I feel like I'm pretty open with my kids and that I want them to find out for themselves. And if whatever their decisions are, I want them to know that, like, I'll support them, but I just want them to really think about what they believe, think about what they accept into their life. Is that something that they. That truly means something to them, or is that just because everybody else is going that.

John Dehlin [02:32:15] Can we determine her status in Mormon belief by that statement or not? You're smiling, Taylor.

Taylor Macy [02:32:21] I mean, I. It was interesting to watch that clip contrasted with Dax Shepard asked her the same question and she. She essentially gave the same answer with the lead in saying, I'm so grateful for my Mormon upbringing. I'm so grateful for my family. I'm grateful for the values that it taught me and for the strength that it gave me. And has so many positive things to say about the Mormon upbringing, but then says something similar in that she doesn't believe blindly. She's a little bit firmer in this clip in saying, I want my kids to choose what they believe in. It feels good. Not because everyone else does or someone tells them to if she isn't out. I feel like that is one of the very distinct phases of. Of being a Mormon and then being progressive and then eventually leaving.

John Dehlin [02:33:13] Yeah. When Margi and I didn't believe anymore. And even after our excommunication, I would say we still want our kids to choose for themselves. So. So. So, Taylor, I'm gonna ask each of you this. What's your percentage certainty that she's no longer in guessing, that she's no longer believing and. Or active. What's your percentage likely?

Taylor Macy [02:33:36] I mean, obviously there's. Are those interviews that, that she can speak for herself. I dove down a rabbit hole yesterday into Reddit and people are commenting. We haven't seen her in church. Why isn't she in church? I mean, I would say it's. It's likely. If I had to give a percentage, I don't know, 80 to 90% based off the firm answer she gave there, or if it's lower, it's. It's moving upward.

John Dehlin [02:34:00] Okay.

Taylor Macy [02:34:01] And not that that. Not. Not that either choice is correct, but just based off. Yeah. What I've consumed in terms of content.

John Dehlin [02:34:08] But those aren't the words of an orthodox, devout believing.

Taylor Macy [02:34:10] Absolutely. Those are not.

John Dehlin [02:34:12] I've heard Chad. Chad Daybell, or, I'm sorry, Chad Frankie being interviewed. He. He says something very different when he answers that question. What does he say?

Samantha Shelley [02:34:23] Devout?

John Dehlin [02:34:24] Yeah. He still very much doesn't criticize the brother and still believes. Yeah, that's. That's what he tells people anyway.

Taylor Macy [02:34:31] Interesting.

John Dehlin [02:34:32] Alyssa, what's your guess? You're reading the tea leaves of her words.

Alyssa Alexander [02:34:35] Yes. Yeah, I, I would, I would say similar. I think that it seems important to her to not, like, be presented as. As an ex Mormon or to have that as part of her narrative. She doesn't seem to want to align with that, but she definitely doesn't. I would definitely not say that she's. She doesn't present like a very active Mormon right now.

John Dehlin [02:34:58] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:59] Sammy, Deconstruction happens in phases, and she's clearly done some major deconstruction. That's not someone sitting there saying Mormonism is the one true church. So I think she's probably deconstructed more than she's willing to say publicly because that's generally how this stuff goes. It's a lot just to process it within yourself, let alone to then have an entire PR engine follow. You know, it's an. It's an intense thing to broadcast.

Taylor Macy [02:35:27] Well, and especially too, as like a Mormon, you. You look at what she says as. I don't follow blindly. I don't believe something just because somebody tells me and, and we can hear that and infer a great deal for sure.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:39] That's like the main thing.

Alyssa Alexander [02:35:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:41] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:42] The first law of heaven, babes.

Taylor Macy [02:35:43] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:44] Yes.

Taylor Macy [02:35:45] It's very telling. And I think that's why I lean on the side of the.

John Dehlin [02:35:50] Yeah.

Taylor Macy [02:35:50] Because it says a lot.

John Dehlin [02:35:51] By the way. I just, I just said Chad, Frankie. It was Kevin Frankie. I'm sorry.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:54] Oh, he's the one that stowed about.

John Dehlin [02:35:56] Yeah, okay.

Taylor Macy [02:35:58] I knew that.

John Dehlin [02:35:58] Oh, I don't know about Chad. Yeah. But sorry. That was Kevin. Frankie Ruby, Frankie's husband, who still makes more sense. Speaks to. About speak. I apologize. Thanks to the comments, Chad's Frankie is

Alyssa Alexander [02:36:08] doing a lot on Tick Tock right now.

Taylor Macy [02:36:13] Got a lot going on.

John Dehlin [02:36:15] Yeah. My understanding is that she's not a believer anymore, but at the same time. Or a practicing Mormon in any orthodox sense of the word. But for the never Mormons that just don't understand these subtleties. There's a super high cost to coming out as an apostate. You risk excommunication from the church. You risk alienating your, your, your mom, in this case, potentially being disowned, disinherited. You get cut off from friends, you get cut off from community. And in her case, she's, you know, wanting to get endorsement deals. She's always doing swimsuit, you know, endorsements or health product endorsements. And if you come out as an ex Mormon apostate, Keith, and especially in Utah, it's going to limit your income, honestly, your speaking opportunities. She's a professional speaker. There are all sorts of financial incentives for her to soft pedal her apostasy.

Taylor Macy [02:37:23] Yeah. I saw her speak at byu. I'm sure that, that, yeah. It's a big part of what she does.

John Dehlin [02:37:29] And I'm not saying she's not courageous. Obviously, she's a hero and more courageous than me.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:33] Yeah. And it could potentially be more that she has big Mormon donors to her foundation rather than like. Yeah, she could get sponsorships. Brands that aren't, you know, she doesn't need Mormon brands. Just wants her at this point.

Alyssa Alexander [02:37:43] But.

John Dehlin [02:37:44] But there are more Mormon billionaires that would contribute to her foundation.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:49] If she wasn't viewed as an apostate.

Taylor Macy [02:37:51] But she does, she does seem to still believe in God. She spoke to like her verbiage. It lends itself to the assumption that that's still there. And I again, just from a personal curiosity, would love to, to dig into that with her a little bit more.

John Dehlin [02:38:07] Yeah.

Taylor Macy [02:38:07] One of the phases of deconstruction, you know.

John Dehlin [02:38:09] Yeah. And I meet a gazillion people that don't believe it all anymore, but either hide in the church as a devout member and just deceive everybody because the costs are so high or they don't believe, but they would never say it publicly. I mean, that's 95% of the ex Mormons I meet.

Alyssa Alexander [02:38:28] And it would probably be really difficult to. Not only financially, but like she has been held up. Up as a hero, which she is. And I. And I feel like fall from grace. Yeah. Just like socially from leaving the church would. Would have a completely. A totally unique and different layer, you know, to be seen as like, we've seen as a hero.

Taylor Macy [02:38:48] And then I'm sure David Archuleta probably have a lot. A lot to relate to one another on that aspect.

John Dehlin [02:38:55] And Lindsey Sterling. Yeah. And I think if anyone she wants to positively influence, it's believing Mormon young women.

Alyssa Alexander [02:39:01] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:39:02] And they're going to be more inclined

Taylor Macy [02:39:03] who are going to be the most vulnerable to a similar.

John Dehlin [02:39:06] Yeah, she doesn't want to discredit herself to them by being branded as an apostate.

Alyssa Alexander [02:39:12] There was a quote in the Netflix podcast where she. That said her experience fundamentally changed her relationship with her faith. The trauma she endured forced her to reevaluate what she'd been taught and to seek answers for herself.

Guest [02:39:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:27] All right. Well, we did it. We did it in under three hours, which is a world record. And final thoughts. Here's one thing I'll ask really quickly. You know, I participated in several Ruby Frankie, Jody Hildebrandt documentaries and Heather Gay, you know, documentaries. And.

Media Coverage and Mormon Doctrinal Context

John Dehlin [02:39:55] And also not. Not Tim Ballard. But who? Oh, Lori Valo, Chad Dabel. Journalists tend to want to skirt the Mormon doctrinal, theological and historical contextual factors that we spent the majority of our time on. I think that's partly why we exist, is because no one else is going to talk about the stuff that we do, unfortunately. But I always. This is just my take. One thing I'll say, other than just being inspired by Elizabeth's courage and wit and spunk and tenacity and.

John Dehlin [02:40:29] And her cause and her mission and how graceful and brilliant and articulate and inspiring she is. You know, I. I'm always underwhelmed by how little these documentaries talk about Joseph Smith polygamy, Mormon history, Mormon doctrine, Mormon theology, Mormon culture. What a huge missed opportunity. And I get that they only had two hours and so they wanted to keep the story focused, but on mushroom tea. What's that?

Taylor Macy [02:40:58] On mushroom tea.

John Dehlin [02:41:00] That's good.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:01] You know that Ruby. Frankie, I think you were interviewed for it, too. It was like an ABC thing that we were both interviewed for. I talked so much in the hours that they interviewed us about that, like, the context for all of it, but it just gets cut.

John Dehlin [02:41:16] Yeah. Yeah. Were y' all frustrated by that at all? Or somebody mentioned that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was barely mentioned in the entire documentary.

Taylor Macy [02:41:25] Yeah, and I'm sure that was on purpose, but I think coming from this Mormon, ex Mormon, post Mormon, whatever space, there's just like we were talking about with her statements, there's so much to infer that never Mormons wouldn't be able to get that whole picture. And not to say we understand her experience in any way, but just to see how much was informed. I actually didn't include this clip, but in the Dax Shepard podcast, he says, how much do you think religion was intertwined in all of this for you? And she said, way too much. And, you know, I think we as Mormons can. Can feel that as we're watching, and we can pick up on just these. The minutiae of this experience and see how it is so much of the Mormon experience and how heartbreaking it is that that's the case, that it can facilitate and be a part of such horrible things.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:22] And it's got to be tough for journalists because they're not going to be experts in all these religions. And it is technically like, this guy is not a representative of the Mormon Church. The Mormon Church disavows all of this. So it's a tough spot for them to be in. And you don't want to rub it so into the wound of the family and be like, and your religion did this.

John Dehlin [02:42:40] But I'm just so tired of being interviewed for hours and hours and hours and hours, and it all gets cut

Samantha Shelley [02:42:45] and never makes the decades the crux of it all.

Taylor Macy [02:42:47] But they won't say why it matters.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:49] Like, yeah, purity. Culture is so.

John Dehlin [02:42:52] Honestly, some would say, well, that you should be glad, John, because that's. That gives a reason for Mormon stories. I would rather Mormon stories not exist and this stuff get covered well in the news than have to do morbid stories. Anyway, that's my gripe. Final thoughts from you three wonderful panelists. Let's see. Alyssa, you go first.

Alyssa Alexander [02:43:14] Okay, great. Yeah. I mean, one thing that. That she talks about a little bit in. In that podcast is like, they asked her, the Netflix person asked her why she wanted to do this documentary, why now? And she just talked about a little bit about the importance of story and how she feels like story is. Is really what people remember, and that's what can really help people. And I Think.

Alyssa Alexander [02:43:39] And a big part of her focus was like, I don't want people just to watch this out of curiosity or just out of, like, the shock factor. Wow. But she really wanted it to be helpful. And I think that the Mormon element of this is part of what makes that really helpful is seeing how there's a. There's like, an old saying. I can't remember who said it, so I'll probably butcher it. But the idea is, like, if you zoom in close enough to a specific story, the whole universe opens up. And I think that really happens here, where we see her story really closely. And while people aren't going to be able to relate to a lot of the specifics of it, they will relate to elements of it and relate to the emotions of it.

Alyssa Alexander [02:44:15] And we see that child sexual abuse is so prevalent within the Mormon Church that a lot of Elizabeth's story is different elements of Mormonism repackaged in new ways. And I just think that's really important for us to be able to address and not only look at it from as, like, a shock factor go. Wow, that's crazy. But to be able to look critically at our own community, not only Mormonism, but our other communities at large, and see ways that we might be inflicting pain or bypassing it, and just continue to do all that we can to advocate especially for children who are survivors or who are vulnerable to exploitation.

John Dehlin [02:44:52] Beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you, Alyssa. Sammy, you go next.

Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Samantha Shelley [02:44:59] Yeah, I think. I mean, this is like, a real modern man's search for Meaning to me. And that's just a book I've been thinking about a lot lately.

John Dehlin [02:45:09] Viktor Frankl.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:10] Yeah, and just that concept of, like, finding the will to survive in the worst conditions possible. And I remember when I first read Man's Search for meaning probably 10 years ago, I didn't necessarily find it to be this, like, inspiring, hopeful read the way that a lot of people did, but watching, getting really into Elizabeth's story again the last few days, I actually have found that more inspiring. For some reason, it's resonated with me more because I'm like, I mean, what is worse than a child having to endure that?

Samantha Shelley [02:45:43] And yet she did. And she's. It seems like she's really, I mean, been so strong and impactful as a result. And it would be perfectly fine if she never was impactful. You know, she doesn't owe that, but I just think she's so amazing. I really am inspired. And it.

Samantha Shelley [02:46:03] I don't know. I don't know if it's like, it weirdly does give me like this resolve within myself to be like, okay, well, if Elizabeth Smart can endure that, then we all have a lot more capacity than we think, because that is like the worst of the worst.

John Dehlin [02:46:18] Yeah. And just how gracefully and courageously she comports herself now. Yeah, she would have all of our understanding if, if her life appeared to be going off the rails. And yet she's just like, shining and no shade on people whose lives don't look that way after all the trauma they experience. But very inspiring. Anyway, thank you. Sammy Taylor.

Taylor Macy [02:46:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:46:45] So you survived your first Mormon Stories panel?

Taylor Macy [02:46:48] I did, and I, I won't come back until 500,000, so subscribe. I want to echo what both of all three of you have said, where every time I've encountered content of hers, I just am so compelled and so struck by her bravery, by her grace.

Taylor Macy [02:47:11] And it is just extraordinarily impressive that she was able to take truly a worst nightmare and continue to fight when I'm sure there are times where it can be at her own expense in terms of mental well being. And obviously I can't speak for her and it's interesting to try and get so granular with, you know, picking apart these words, but I feel like it's a, it's a very important commentary from a Mormon perspective for us to elaborate on those things. But while we can't speak on how she is feeling and how she does with everything, I think it is just remarkable, her spirit and her resolve and her composure and her, her bravery that she just is such an inspiration.

Taylor Macy [02:48:05] And I don't know if it's the right thing to say, to say, like, I feel lucky to be, you know, somewhat adjacent to this story as it happened, you know, near where I live, but because it was so close to home, you know, I was able to follow it growing up and follow it now with the documentary in her book and all the things over the years. And it just feels like it's had an impact on me throughout my life. And it's an honor to be able to, you know, have some sort of association with her, whether it's through Mormonism or through Utah.

Taylor Macy [02:48:36] I just can't sing her praises well enough. And I, I do feel like it's really beautiful to see the impact that she's making and making a difference for children regarding sexual violence. I just think it's one of the most needed things in the world right now. And I really admire what she does.

John Dehlin [02:48:55] Amen. And shout out to Ed and Lois and Mary Catherine and All of the smart family. Yeah. And the uncles. Or not.

Alyssa Alexander [02:49:07] Yeah. Shout out to the uncles. Shout out to everyone.

John Dehlin [02:49:10] Excellent. Well, shout out to you, Alyssa and Samantha and. Oh, my gosh, do I get it?

Taylor Macy [02:49:20] You see, I can't come back if you don't remember.

John Dehlin [02:49:22] I'm. It's not automatic, but that's why you need to come back. I got it. I got there. Taylor. Thanks to all of you. What a lovely panel. Thanks for preparing the slides, the flow, Alyssa and. And the videos, and Sammy, you didn't, you know, provide any of that.

Samantha Shelley [02:49:38] It's not really where I shine.

John Dehlin [02:49:40] Thanks for shining today.

Samantha Shelley [02:49:42] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:49:42] Check out Zoe on the Shelf. Subscribe to Mormon Stories and Zel on the Shelf. Check out alyssa's stuff@alyssa.com and you're also on Instagram and Tik Tok.

Alyssa Alexander [02:49:53] I am at Alyssa on Instagram and L Likes words on Tik Tok.

John Dehlin [02:49:57] Lys.

Alyssa Alexander [02:49:58] Lys Words. Likes words.

John Dehlin [02:50:00] And you write stuff.

Alyssa Alexander [02:50:01] I do. I do write stuff. So I have a. A review of a book that talks about the relationship between purity, culture, and disordered eating coming up pretty soon.

Samantha Shelley [02:50:14] Let's go.

Taylor Macy [02:50:15] Let's do a whole episode on that.

Samantha Shelley [02:50:16] Wait, can I talk to you about that? Oneself on the Shelf. That sounds so good.

Alyssa Alexander [02:50:20] Yeah, I would love that.

John Dehlin [02:50:21] Are you poaching?

Samantha Shelley [02:50:22] Yeah, I'm here to work, John. I'm networking.

John Dehlin [02:50:27] That's great. Yeah. All right, we'll look forward to that. Taylor, do you have anything you want to promote?

Taylor Macy [02:50:33] Just myself, though. Nothing. No, I just. I. Yeah, just glad to be here hanging out with some cool people and. Yeah, look forward to next time.

John Dehlin [02:50:42] And you, you in the comments. I mean, we know you love Alyssa and Samantha, but let us know if you want us to bring Taylor back. I give Taylor an A plus.

Taylor Macy [02:50:52] Oh, that's very kind. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:50:53] But. But if you viewers and want to say really kind things to any of our panelists, we really would love it.

Samantha Shelley [02:51:00] Yeah, we could really help right now, guys. I can't stress. Listen.

John Dehlin [02:51:05] And if you have mean things to

Alyssa Alexander [02:51:06] say, just keep it to yourself. Don't worry about it.

Taylor Macy [02:51:08] Send it in the group chat.

John Dehlin [02:51:11] All right, well, thanks for joining us there. Mormon Stories. Thanks to our donors that make all this possible. If you value this type of content you want to see continue. Donations are down. Ad revenue is down. Things are hard on YouTube land. So we live primarily by donors. So if you value this content and don't want to see it go away, the way you can help keep it going is to go to mormonstories.org donate Become a monthly donor and we won't end prematurely what we do here.

John Dehlin [02:51:41] I'm also being threatened with the lawsuit by the Mormon Church this Friday. I'm doing mediation with their attorneys, and soon I may have some news about being sued. They want me to take the word Mormon out of our domain name, out of the podcast name, and out of any of our social media handles.

John Dehlin [02:52:06] And they're threatening to sue me if I don't. So we're mediating on Friday and stay tuned for what happens there. But we may have to fight a $500 billion organization to preserve our podcast,

Alyssa Alexander [02:52:23] but this podcast is worth it. To fight the fight. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:28] Or just rebrand Victory for Satan stories.

John Dehlin [02:52:31] What would you call this podcast? If you can't call it, you can't use the word Mormon and you can't use Latter Day. Saying what Mormon. Somebody said ex Mormon stories.

Taylor Macy [02:52:42] It's one word. Make it one word.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:44] Surely they can't take Mormon. I just don't believe they could own that.

John Dehlin [02:52:47] We'll see.

Taylor Macy [02:52:48] Well, when they denounced it, too.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:51] You can't have it both ways.

Taylor Macy [02:52:52] Seems like they're just a little butt hurt.

John Dehlin [02:52:53] I would hate to call it ex Mormon stories.

Alyssa Alexander [02:52:55] Mormon with three.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:56] Yeah, because it isn't just ex woman stories. No Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [02:53:02] Well, anyway, if you also want to donate to our legal fund, we may have a link for you to donate.

Alyssa Alexander [02:53:08] It could be like M with like the O as a 00 Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:53:13] Like Mormon with the zeros. Yeah. All right. Anyway, thanks for joining us. Subscribe, donate if you can. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon. On another episode of More Stories. Elizabeth Smart, we we think you're amazing along with your family. Take care, everybody. See you all again very soon.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:38] The podcast formerly known.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.