Mormon News Edition:

Utah

Pride

John

Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast, Mormon News Edition. I am your co host for today, John Dehlin. It's June 19, 2026, and I'm here with Meggan from Generally Unquotable. Hey, Meggan. Welcome back.

Meggan

Hayes [00:00:14] Hey, thanks. Good to be home.

John

Dehlin [00:00:16] We freaking missed you for two weeks. Where were you?

Meggan

Hayes [00:00:20] I actually on my bucket list was to go to Utah Pride. So I flew into Utah and with my sister went to the Utah Pride Festival. It was really fun.

John

Dehlin [00:00:29] I think I may have mentioned to you that I've had several people comment, oh, they mentioned Pride. I'm not going to listen to your podcast anymore because you mentioned pride. And I'm like, if you listen to this podcast because I mentioned or we mentioned pride, I think that's on you.

Meggan

Hayes [00:00:43] Yep, I know I have my rainbow earrings, so I guess people are going to be offended. Today's the day.

John

Dehlin [00:00:48] I mean, can't we just. Can't we be a little bit more resilient as a people? And. And, you know, it's not like we're trying to force anything down anyone's throat. Like, I'm literally just wishing you happiness and something that brought you joy anyway.

Meggan

Hayes [00:01:04] Yes. And I. When I was at the Pride parade, it was collective joy, which I think is so important. And I've said that about BYU football games where the fans get so excited, they want to rush onto the field. Collective joy is something we need in our society, and the more the better.

John

Dehlin [00:01:20] Absolutely. All right, well, welcome back because you were definitely missed. Although we did keep the show going, which I was. I was very happy for. I. I like to call this segment Meggan Explains the the Week in Mormon News to John Dehlin and his audience. Because I. I have not even seen many of these slides. I don't know much about the stories. I'm flying mostly blind, and I kind of like it that way. I'll just give my reactions, my cold reactions to your seasoned news collection and analysis. How does that sound?

Meggan Explains the Week in Mormon News To

John

Deh

Meggan

Hayes [00:01:56] That sounds great. No, and it's fun. It's fun to see a live reaction. It'll be fun on this first part especially.

John

Dehlin [00:02:03] So, I mean, I've heard rumblings, but I get all these people confused because there's so many of them, you know?

Anyway.

Meggan

Hayes [00:02:09] Yes, yes.

John

Dehlin [00:02:11] Tell everyone really quickly what generally unquotable is, just because I love to promote your work.

Meggan

Hayes [00:02:15] Oh, thank you. Yes. I have a. My own series of channels on YouTube and TikTok and Instagram and Facebook, but I go under generally unquotable. And Monday through Friday I report Mormon news and happenings so I usually tend to pick four to six different stories and I talk about them. Videos are usually less than 20 minutes. If it goes over 20 minutes, that's a really long one for me. And it's a quick, easy way for people to keep up on what's going on in Mormonism. So yeah, visit me. I have a Patreon as well if people like to support which I love. You know I've paid for my kids braces a little bit here and there.

John

Dehlin [00:02:55] So yeah, all right, well we're great to have you and, and so let's, let's dive in. I kind of threw a curveball at you because I threw a story in last minute that I just felt was kind of interesting. And we also want to welcome, we like doing live streams so we are live streaming this. We welcome our live audience. This gives us a chance to hear from you, even to share your questions or comments. Your questions or comments will be most likely seen by us because there's so many if you share them as super chats on YouTube and we also appreciate the financial support. So please like and subscribe to Mormon stories and also and follow and click the bell and all that stuff and do the same thing to generally unquotable while you're at it. Now I threw in a last minute story that really caught my eye partly because it relates to a lawsuit that we're currently in. But the title of this little segment that I just threw in here is Major Victory for Satan or I'm a Mormon. We've covered this before on Mormon stories but the story is about these influencers called the Paris Twins. Have you heard of the Paris Twins, Meggan? I haven't, so this is new to me.

Major Victory for Satan or I'm a

Mormon

Meggan

Hayes [00:04:22] No, I have. I can't remember where I first saw them but they have a very Mormon like the Mormons love to have a story with two good looking guys from another country who converted to the church.

Guest [00:04:37]

So.

Meggan

Hayes [00:04:37] So they grew up in a non religious home and converted to Mormonism because they said their whole lives they were yearning for something that made sense. One of them, I can't remember which one even said he wondered as a child or teen why baptism was only for the living. So when they found the Mormon church they felt like they'd been seeking for it their whole lives. Yeah, you know they're good looking. They then moved to Utah, went to BYU and they've got those cool accents because they're from France and yeah, so they've been a big deal. They've Been a big deal.

John

Dehlin [00:05:15] Well, jokingly, they must have been baptized after 2018 because they clearly didn't get a memo. So basically the question of this little segment is, did someone not get the Mormon is a major victory for Satan memo? And let me just remind people, if they were living under a bush. Remind people about what President Russell Nelson, prophet President Russell M. Nelson said about using the term Mormon in 2018, which would be what, eight years ago now?

Meggan

Hayes [00:05:49] Yeah. Wow. Seems like it was just yesterday.

He Says Even The Church Is

Not

Negotiable

John

Dehlin [00:05:52] Let's hear that clip today.

Guest 2 [00:05:54] I feel compelled to discuss with you a matter of great importance. Some weeks ago, I released a statement regarding a course correction for the name of the church. I did this because the Lord impressed upon my mind the importance of the name he decreed for his church, even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Let me explain why we care so deeply about this issue. The name of the church is not negotiable. The name of the church is not negotiable. When the Savior clearly states what the name of his church should be and even precedes his declaration with thus shall my church be called, he's serious. And if we allow nicknames to be used or adopt or even sponsor those nicknames ourselves, he is offended. He is offended. He is offended. To remove the Lord's name from the Lord's church is a major victory for Satan. Is a major victory for Satan. When we discard the Savior's name, we are subtly disregarding all that Jesus Christ did for us, even his atonement.

John

Dehlin [00:07:33] Meggan, I'm just curious. Do you have any. It's been a while since I've listened to that. Do you have any reactions? Not to mock him, but just as a. As a citizen of the world, do you have any thoughts on.

Meggan

Hayes [00:07:46] A lot of times that video will stop at the part where he says, major victory for Satan. So I forgot about that part after where he says it basically nullifies the atonement. If you use. I mean, that's. That's huge. Yeah, I had forgotten about that part. He really makes it sound very, very serious. And he keeps pausing and he has all this dramatic effect.

John

Dehlin [00:08:11] Yeah. For never. Mormons, like Mormons believe this. You know, President Nelson is a prophet of God, Speaks to God directly, speaks to Jesus face to face. So he's saying, I'm prophet, I speak to Jesus. This is a matter of great importance to God and Jesus. He's going to do a course correction for the church that the Lord spoke to him.

Meggan

Hayes [00:08:39]

What.

John

Dehlin [00:08:40] What do you think it means when he says even the church why doesn't he just say the church? Why do they say even the church?

Meggan

Hayes [00:08:47] Is that language from the Doctrine and Covenants?

John

Dehlin [00:08:50] Probably. Joseph Smith said, even the Church of Jesus Christ of the

United

States.

Meggan

Hayes [00:08:54] When they say that in prayers, I. It makes me chuckle a little bit now.

John

Dehlin [00:08:59] Yeah. So what does it mean? What do you think it means?

Meggan

Hayes [00:09:04] Even the church. It's just this extra emphasis. It's, you know. Yeah. There's this one TikTok that if I'm having a bad day, I might just go to it and chuckle a little bit. And it. It brightens my day because it's someone who has someone who's praying and they say, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. And then it shows God and he's like. And then it shows a different person and they're like, in the name of Jesus Christ, the holy Savior, amen. And then God's like, oh. And then they say, you know, then it has a prophet saying, in the name of even Jesus Christ, the very. You know, and then God's like, ooh. So it's just like this.

John

Dehlin [00:09:46] I mean, so he. Yeah. He goes on to say, you know, that God cares deeply and that he's serious and, you know, God is offended. Let's just say. Let's just say there's a God. Let's just say there is a creator of the universe, all powerful, all knowing, all loving. Meggan, I'm asking your opinion here. What are the chances he or she or it is offended? Like, let's just talk about the things that God might be offended for. Child hunger, poverty, war, famine. You know, abuse. Child abuse. Like, lots of things. Spouse abuse. Lots of things. God could be offended. What are the chances that the creator of the universe is like, I'm so offended when they call my church, even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons. What do you think?

Meggan

Hayes [00:10:51] You know what it reminds me of now that I'm hearing you say this is when Joseph said the one time that an angel with a flaming sword came to him was to practice polygamy. Of all the things in the world that God could send an angel or. Or be super offended about. It doesn't make any sense because like you said, if there is a God, they.

Guest [00:11:12]

He.

Meggan

Hayes [00:11:13] She would certainly be more offended about child abuse, about hunger.

John

Dehlin [00:11:20] Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, but. But he's the prophet. He's the president of the corporation. He's the prophet. He said it. The church has followed suit.

Guest 2 [00:11:31]

Mm.

John

Dehlin [00:11:32] And, you know, he calls it a major victory for Satan. Can you imagine Satan going, yes, yes, they said Mormon. You know, like, I'm also trying to imagine that.

Meggan

Hayes [00:11:42] But anyway, well, Satan would have been doing that for years and years and years. And during the I'm a Mormon campaign, he would have been having just straight parties.

I'm a Mormon isn't the Mormon Church

Guest 2 [00:11:50]

No.

John

Dehlin [00:11:50] And we could have showed that clip of like. Of like, Monson using the term Mormon and Hinckley. So I would. Would Satan have been rejoicing at Hinckley and Monson?

Meggan

Hayes [00:11:59] Right when Hinckley said Mormon means more

Good.

John

Dehlin [00:12:02] Yeah. Like, anyway, doesn't matter. The point is, is that, you know, it seems like for six or seven years or the church got the memo and they. They stopped using the term Mormon. I've. I've received thousands of messages saying, stop calling us Mormon. We're not Mormons. It's the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Saints. It's not the Mormon Church. Like, it just seems like the whole church got the memoir. You know, the church changed all its, you know, URLs and its branding, completely abandoned the name. And then I stumbled upon this video this week, and I did see Rebecca Biblioteca share it, so I want to give her credit, but I saw it elsewhere as well. But either way, this is kind of a shocking video. It's from the Paris Twins Daily, and I'll just. I'll just play it.

Meggan

Hayes [00:12:52] I am a

Mormon.

John

Dehlin [00:12:53] I am a Mormon. I'm a

Mormon.

Meggan

Hayes [00:12:55] I'm a

Mormon.

John

Dehlin [00:12:56] I'm a Mormon. I'm a Mormon. I'm a

Mormon.

Meggan

Hayes [00:13:00] I'm a

Mormon.

John

Dehlin [00:13:01] We are Mormon. I'm a Mormon. We are

Mormon.

Meggan

Hayes [00:13:04] I'm Mormon. I'm a Mormon. I am Mormon. I am a Mormon. I'm a

Mormon.

John

Dehlin [00:13:10] I am a Mormon. I'm a Mormon. I'm a Mormon. I am a

Mormon.

Meggan

Hayes [00:13:15] I'm a Mormon. I'm a Mormon. I'm a

Mormon.

John

Dehlin [00:13:18] I am a Mormon. I am Mormon. And all together, we are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Florence Saints, because God is amazing and because we saw the gospel through Jesus Christ. So, yeah, we love you guys. Bye bye. Peace. So, like, a couple options, Meggan, and I'm curious if you have an opinion. Is this just Paris Twins or converts? And they didn't get the memo. All these youth, like, somehow didn't hear what the prophet said eight years ago and what the church has been saying for eight years? Or is this like an initial salvo of the church and its social media slowly overriding and nullifying what their previous prophet taught as God's will, as what's evil, as what's good. Is this the church overriding and he trying to erase and backtrack what their own prophet taught the full membership and the world for eight years. What's your opinion?

Is the Mormon Church Overreacting to Russell M.

Nelson's

Meggan

Hayes [00:14:18] You know, since Oaks has come in after Nelson passed away, I have seen him leading kind of a change. And it is, has been subtle. You know, he said, we're not going to announce temples in General Conference anymore. That was Nelson's thing. And we're going to slow down and then to see this coming out. It's not coming from Oaks, but it feels like part of maybe the regime change where the word Mormon has been softened a little. I think I even heard Jasmine Rapelli use it in the past couple of weeks. So it's interesting to see. I mean, I guess they really are embracing the, you know, the current prophet is the one we listen to and the dead prophet is, you know, we can override some of those things now.

John

Dehlin [00:15:07] Yeah. And, and the truth is, I, I, I felt for a long time that even though the church has been successful at convincing its members that it never changes, that God never changes, that the gospel is consistent and never changing and eternal. I think one of the reasons why the Mormon Church has been so successful over the past 200 years is because it changes. I mean, whether it's the priesthood and temple ban for black people, whether it's, you know, abolishing polygamy, whether it's even updating the the Book of Mormon title page to among the Ancestors, or, you know, coming up with the catalyst theory in the Book of Abraham. Like, if the church didn't change, it would, or the Gospel topics essays. If the church didn't change, it would really be in a lot worse shape than it is. And so obviously the church changes. And, and to be honest, I don't think a lot of members are going to care if the church backtracks and steamrolls over what Russell M. Nelson said about the use of the term Mormon. Like, I just think the members generally, they don't generally care about child abuse relative to, you know, their faithfulness in the church. They don't care about how wealthy the church is. They don't care about overriding past things or even, you know, problematic church history. They love being members and they love the benefits they get from being a member. And I can't fault them for that at all. And I still think it's just fascinating as someone who's an observer, how easily they are willing and able these days to discard the words of a former prophet when it's convenient or expedient.

Meggan

Hayes [00:16:57] Well, and I don't. When I was an active member, which was for almost 40 years, I don't remember the changes being so frequent and so swift. Yeah, I mean I went to the three hour block and I did conference every six months and that was, that was the program. I don't remember the. For the strength of youth changing. I don't, you know, I just, it seems at a faster pace now and I don't know if I'm just paying more attention or if it really is

John

Dehlin [00:17:27] Internet and it's the hemorrhaging. Like Jeff Strong has told us that 40% of Mormons raised in the US as Mormons have left the church over the past 25 years. That's a million US Mormons raised in the church or Latter Day Saints, they have left the church. So the church is just desperate, making changes all the time. Like did you. I mean just another example, they, they obviously shortened church from three hours to two hours and then they were having rotating like Relief Society Priesthood Quorum versus Sunday School. Now Oaks is putting it back to where the second hour is half, you know, Sunday school and then half priesthood slash Relief Society. That's, that's incredibly fast change.

Meggan

Hayes [00:18:13] Right. Well and when Nelson came out with that change in the first place, he made a whole meal of it, being inspired. This is from God, as he tended to do. And now Oakes is like, eh, I think God didn't really know and we tried it and it didn't work. And let's try this other thing.

John

Dehlin [00:18:29] I mean it's totally their right to change. It is their right to claim, I guess that God is at the helm at some point. They do make God look kind of indecisive or short sighted or fickle. But again, I guess as long as a bulk of the members don't care, they're just, they can do whatever they want. Right. And they will do whatever they want. But it's interesting you had this slide. Is there anything you wanted to say about this slide?

The Problem With Using the

Term

Mormon

Meggan

Hayes [00:18:56] I was just reiterating. This is straight from the church's website. You know, Mormon is correctly used in proper names and when referring to the church members, the terms members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Latter Day Saints, members of the Church of Jesus Christ and members of the Restored. Maybe that's an even, even the Restored Church of Jesus Christ are preferred. We ask that the term Mormons and LDS not be used. This is the church's official style guide. And you know, I'm a graphic designer, so I've read a lot of style guides. They're very important. You follow them to the T when you're designing for somebody. This is what the church wants. And yet, you know, we're. We're watching influencers and the Paris twins are a big deal. Using the term

Mormon.

John

Dehlin [00:19:42] And do you, do you think that the church, if you had to predict, is the church going to swing fully back and just like the priesthood ban or the, or the polygamy ban, do you think they're just going to go right back to using Mormon and letting the members use Mormon, or do you think they're going to try and find some middle ground if you had a prediction?

Meggan

Hayes [00:20:02] I think there's probably. They're going to try to find middle ground. I think in their quest to keep people in, there are people who really just don't like saying the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I, I've listened to a faithful podcast for three years of a faithful podcast in the last year, and they've talked in there numerous times about how they've felt the spirit tell them, oh, you just really need to say it. Then they get nervous about saying the full name. So then they say Mormon and then they feel bad. So it's this thing that the average member has struggled with, as far as I can tell.

John

Dehlin [00:20:37] Yeah, it's just too long of a name. And media, even faithful Mormons like Patrick Mason, they're going to call it Mormon, the Mormon Studies, and they're going to call Latter Day Saints Mormons in defiance of the church. And so it is a losing battle. I think we all knew it was a losing battle, which is just so ironic that such a catastrophically dumb decision was made by a prophet of God and said to be God's decision that then is going to likely be overridden.

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [00:21:08] Well, I mean, have you ever. I've been talking to people before, especially when I was a member, and saying, oh, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And they just look at me like. And then I say, oh, Mormon. They're like, oh, okay, yeah, right. They don't have any context for the full name.

John

Dehlin [00:21:23] Yeah. Really quickly, a couple comments I wanted to share. Wade Johnson writes, do you do this to try and get people to leave the church, or do you do it for the money you make? Huh? Those are the two choices. Okay. Do you have a response? I'll share a couple. First, Betty Crockett 5 says, Wade to bring us informed consent. I love that answer. I love that we didn't have to give it. Ryan Scott, PNW says, I think the changes are happening so quickly because the Internet has sped up information dissemination. Hard to keep up. So that's just referring to, you know, why the changes are so fast. And then ex Mormon Snark writes, it's their right. But is it right, like morally to use God as an excuse? And I'm on record as saying I actually think it should be illegal to claim that God told you something that, you know, humans need to hear through you because just too much power, too much can be manipulated. Any quick response you have to any

Ex Mormon Snark: Do You Do This for the Money?

Meggan

Hayes [00:22:24] of those comments if I was all about the money, I wouldn't be doing this because if I spent as much time doing graphic design as I do doing this, I would be making way more money. I am passionate about this though, and I keep doing it because it is podcasts and information like this that saved. I mean this might sound overblown, but saved my life. When I left the church it was very hard. It was very hard and I needed to know that I could survive and thrive, not just survive outside of the church. And this is how I got through that.

John

Dehlin [00:23:02] Yeah, yeah. And I, I was at Microsoft when I lost my faith. I had major stock options there. I was, I was working at the highest levels including with Steve Ballmer, the CEO. And if I just stayed at Microsoft I'm sure I'd be worth between 10 and 20 million or more from the stock out. Just the stock options that I had and would have been given as a level 65 director. So anyway, I am grateful that I'm able to have what I think is now a generous salary for a non profit and benefits. So I'm grateful for that. But I certainly didn't do it for the money. And for the first five years we made pretty much no money and then for another five or so years we made very, very little. So anyway, don't do it for the money. One last comment. I really wanted to go last night to Jeff Strong's presentation at Benchmark Books, but I love you deeply writes Last night Jeff Strong gave a presentation of Benchmark Books. He mentioned the idea that there is a brief, maybe under 10 year window for the church to make dramatic course corrections. I wonder what he means by that because the church is worth over $300 billion and I'm curious to get your take on this. You know it will be a trillion dollar church. You know we talk about Elon Musk being the first trillionaire. I think the Mormon Church will be the first trillion dollar church within the next 20 to 30 years, because that's just 300 billion. At 7% or more a year, growth is going to double every so, and it's going to reach trillion in a matter of decades. So there's always going to be people who will stay in the church just because they're managing the money or they benefit from the way the church's money. And then there's just always going to be people whose brains are wired to stay in the church or who have deep family connections or history or just where it brings them joy. So I don't get this argument that the church is ever going away or really going to be deeply in trouble. I think it may shrink and lose members. But what do you think about that and what you might make of Jeff Strong's statement last night?

Mormon Church's Worth: A trillion dollars

Meggan

Hayes [00:25:13] Yeah, I actually agree with you on this one because I don't see the church disappearing. Yeah, I don't even think that's just not realistic because of the amount of people that are still in. Even if it's just 2 million of their 17 million who are active and faithful. That's a lot of people who have connections with family and kids. And you don't just all jump ship. Yeah. And it has enough money that if the members stop paying, the church will still exist. I think that's kind of the position that Scientology's in right now, if I understand correctly, is that they have a lot of money and not very many members. But it's okay because the people who have the money at the top are enjoying their lives in the way that they are because of the money.

John

Dehlin [00:25:56] Yeah. And just one more quick thing before we go to the main slides, just to answer that question directly as well. I feel like I've said this a million times, but I'll say it again. I don't believe I've ever told anyone to leave the Mormon Church, ever. In tens of thousands of interactions with people over the years and in at least 10,000 hours of podcasting, I don't have a desire for people to leave the church. I don't even have a desire for the church to be harmed. I just want the Mormon Church, the LDS Church, to be as healthy as possible and to do the most good and the least amount of harm. And I want people to have informed consent, and I want to provide support for people for whom orthodoxy doesn't work. But I want only the healthiest best for both the LDS Church and its members. And I don't necessarily think people's lives automatically get better by leaving it. Which is one of the reasons why I don't want to try and get people to leave it because I can't promise them their lives will improve. Sometimes it gets worse and sometimes it gets worse and then better. And sometimes it's way better. But every person's journey is different. And Meggan, I'm guessing you feel similarly.

Meggan

Hayes [00:27:09] Yeah, yeah. I was talking to a faithful member just a couple months ago and asking him some kind of pointed questions about, you know, the church's money. And the way he was describing it, he was describing a church that he had kind of made for himself within the Mormon church was the way that I viewed it. And I thought, you know, I kind of wish I could have done that. Not that I want to go back or I would have stayed because my journey, I love where what I have been through and what I have come to. But I appreciated his ability to make the Mormon church work for him. And I don't think that he'll leave. I mean, I don't know. But he had created his own space there and it seemed very healthy the way he was describing his interactions with the church.

John

Dehlin [00:27:52] Yeah, there's plenty of people who have healthy relationships with the church. Okay, final thing, Trevor, Trev, thanks for all your moderation. Trev writes at 7% it will take 18 years to go from 300 billion to a trillion. And thank you Trevor, for that. And then Zach, 9953, rule of 72. Divide 72 by the growth rate and you get the rough number of years to double the money. So if 7% growth rate, it doubles every 10ish years. So yeah, between 10 and 20 years the church will be a trillion dollar church.

Utah Priest in Position of Authority Arrested for Sexual Abuse of 14

Meggan

Hayes [00:28:58] Okay, West Jordan man in position of authority. Let's put some quotes on that. At families church arrested for sexual abuse of 14 year old nephew. This story came out just a couple days ago.

John

Dehlin [00:29:10] Can I just say there's every week there's a story like this in Utah. Like literally every week a bishop or young men's president is abusing boys. Like, am I wrong?

Meggan

Hayes [00:29:19] No, no. And if we could have spent all the time we just did covering stuff like this and not talked about Shane at all and spent the same amount of time.

John

Dehlin [00:29:26] Yeah, yeah. Oh, let's. Yeah. Tell us about this new one because it feels like it's a daily story, but.

Meggan

Hayes [00:29:33] Yeah. So I. They don't mention the name of the man who did it because they're trying, they say, to protect the victim because they're related. And so I reached out to a contact of mine and he looked through records, arrest records and court records and got the name for me. And then from that I got the position of authority, which he was a priest quorum specialist, which I think in the past would have been someone in the young men's presidency, but they did away with the young men's presidency. So now bishops call these specialists. So he was over the priest quorum in his ward in

Utah.

John

Dehlin [00:30:11] Okay, so that was his calling. What else?

Meggan

Hayes [00:30:17] So this says in a forensic interview the following day, the 14 year old child told authorities of three separate incidents in which his uncle touched him sexually. He also described an incident in the basement of the home. Home in which his uncle held him down and prevented him from going upstairs. In one additional incident, the boy's uncle exposed himself to his nephew. Court documents state police took the man into custody and conducted an interview. The man reportedly admitted to cuddling with the boy on multiple occasions. Police also stated that the man emotionally cried and sobbed for the duration of the interview, but denied ever intentionally touching the boy sexually. So that was the victim's account of what happened. And then. So because I knew the name of who did this, I did look them up, as I tend to do on social media. And it actually, I don't want to minimize what the victim went through, but I also want to say very carefully that it made me have a little bit of compassion for the guy who did this because it looked like he was someone who, you know, he's in his late 30s, he's not been married, he's been, from what it looked like, raised in the church.

Guest [00:31:31]

And

Meggan

Hayes [00:31:33] just the way that the church teaches people about sexuality, I mean, he was well into adulthood, he knew what he was doing and he possibly was not prepared to have a sexual relationship and to deal with what he did. I don't even know if that's coming across right or what I'm trying to flesh out there, but I felt a measure of compassion for him because I've seen people who are raised in the church and just are not educated sexually in a way that they understand consent well and the things that they should understand before they're a 37 year old adult and committing a crime such as this one or an alleged crime. I don't he hasn't been, but he's been arrested. So it just made me think, what effect does the church have on people? And like you said, these reports are coming out weekly, sometimes daily. And why is that?

John

Dehlin [00:32:32] So was this, was this a priest? Was this a priest quorum specialist or was it an uncle or both?

Meggan

Hayes [00:32:40] So he, the person who came forward about the abused abuse was a nephew of the guy who is a priest quorum specialist? I, the nephew I do not believe was in his priest quorum. I don't think he was in his priest quorum. However, statistically speaking, if he is abusing his nephew, there would likely be more victims and he had access to priests who were roughly the same age. No one else has come forward, but he did have access because the church granted him that in his calling.

John

Dehlin [00:33:19] I'll say one thing that's kind of interesting to me. To me, this is giving Michael Jackson vibes as soon as they're talking about cuddling with boys. And you know something that really surprised me, like I grew up in the 80s. I watched Michael Jackson transform before my eyes from a cute boy member of the Jackson 5 to the teen heartthrob, to then all the transformations that happened late in his life. And no one back then had any reasonable doubt that he slept with boys. Mostly because he said so himself. Like he literally was interviewed saying, there's nothing wrong with me sleeping with boys, it's innocent. It's only weirdos that think that's, you know, wrong. And then when you know that he settled out of court and paid families money to keep quiet. You know, of course I believe in false allegations and of course I believe innocent until proven guilty. And of, you know, of course stars are going to be more prone to have false allegations levied at them because of people that want money. In my mind, there was no credible person who didn't sort of acknowledge that Michael Jackson did inappropriate things with boys just because he admitted it himself. But I was surprised at one of our past episodes. The comments just kept coming in. Michael Jackson's innocent. He never abused anyone. And I'm just like, really? Is that where we are in 2026? Where somehow his image has been rehabilitated to the point where a subs substantive part of the population believes he's innocent of all charges of abuse of children? When so many victims have come forward. What do you have reactions to that?

Like.

Meggan

Hayes [00:35:15] Well, yeah, I, I don't know if you disagree.

John

Dehlin [00:35:20]

Like.

Meggan

Hayes [00:35:21] Well, no, I, I have not seen an adult sleep consistently sleep in a bed with children and have it be a healthy situation. Yeah, I just haven't seen that. And I, and I've seen some very unhealthy things and had to report things in the past of an adult sleeping in a bed with a child and saying it was innocent. I just haven't seen that play out because I don't know, I don't, I don't want to sleep in a bed with my kids because even when they were three years old, they were kicking me. But, you know, wild sleeper. But I haven't seen an adult that would come out. I mean, kids that weren't his own children. And it. What, you know, it just, it. I haven't seen that situation be a healthy situation.

John

Dehlin [00:36:08] Yeah, well, I don't mean to sidetrack us, but anyway, please don't bother commenting that Michael Jackson was innocent. I don't, I don't need those comments on Mormon stories, but I was surprised. I thought I'd share that. But back to the story. Yeah, the idea that the church got rid of the priest quorum advisor is interesting, but it's weird that they had this quasi calling of priest quorum specialist. But most importantly, it's just super weird and outrageous that the church doesn't do background checks, that the church is still having young men's leaders abusing children in 2026, that they haven't figured out how to keep the members safe and, and warn members against letting their children hang around young men's leaders. The church could do a lot to fix this problem. And it's just wild and crazy that in 2026 they're still having this problem. But at this point, what I just do is when I just post these stories on Facebook and I say members now, it's, you know, fool me once, shame on me. Sorry. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Like More this is a. Julia make this a short Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, if you allow your children to be alone with young men's leaders or young women's leaders in the modern LDS Church, there have been so many cases of abuse now and such inadequate protection policies for children by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for so long, such an unwillingness to keep children safe. It is your own fault, I think, at least significantly. So if you now, in 2026, are allowing your children to be alone with Mormon Church leaders. Because time and time and time again, the LDS Church has shown itself to be unwilling to provide even the most basic protections of children or youth. And again, of course, always the majority of fault is going to lie with the abuser. But organizations at this point, especially $300 billion organizations, share in the responsibility for decades and decades and decades of unwillingness to implement basic safety policies like background checks, like too deep, like cameras, like prosecuting child abusers, and by default, making church members and leaders mandatory reporters for child abuse. And the LDS Church won't do it. So members of the LDS Church, you should know better by now, and at this point, I think you're complicit in endangering your children. When you ever let your child alone with any Mormon church leader ever. That's my take. Is that too hot of a take, Meggan?

LDS Church: If You Let Your Child Be Alone

With

Young

Meggan

Hayes [00:39:32] No, no. I think a parent's job is to teach their child how to keep themselves safe while the parent does everything they can to keep them safe. So not only is the LDS Church not putting in even the simplest of protections, but they're also not even talking about consent. I mean, I started talking to my children about consent when I started talking to my children, and there is a great video on YouTube called Consent for Kids. It's so good talking about how even at a very young age, they can start saying no to things that they don't want touching their body. Right. It's so simple and it's natural and it's normal. And you can start at a very young age. And in the church. When I was in the church, it just. None of that was present.

John

Dehlin [00:40:24] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I do want to let people know. We, we have a very, very important episode airing on Monday. The wife of a former bishop and Stake Presidency member who. Whose husband was called into a Stake presidency and was called as a Mormon bishop after abusing two children and who eventually was convicted by the church. And then the church. I. Sorry. Was convicted of child abuse and imprisoned. And then the Mormon Church, in our opinion and in this woman's opinion, did all they could to cover up the abuse. And then the stake president that was complicit in the COVID up was made an area authority president recently. We are telling that full story on Monday and it's a banger. It's disturbing, but also really important. And we just want to let everybody know. Please tune in on Monday for one of the most important Mormon stories episodes we've ever released because it's so brazen that the Mormon church takes a stake president who literally was actively involved in a child sex abuse cover up, and then they make him an area authority, almost, according to this woman, as a reward for doing the church's bidding. So stay tuned, everyone, for that episode.

Mormon Stories: The Coverup of Child Sex Abuse

Guest 2 [00:41:59]

Wow.

Meggan

Hayes [00:42:00] Yeah. Can't wait. Yeah, sadly.

The Church's Wrong on Child

Abuser's

Name

John

Dehlin [00:42:04] All right, so, yeah, the church just continues to get this wrong. Anything else you want to say on the story?

Meggan

Hayes [00:42:10] I just. This was a comment that someone made on the article. It said people saying the church doesn't matter. Of course it does. So does the man's name. People who abuse children often do it to more than one child. So his name should be publicized so the parents can talk to their kids if they were in close proximity to him. If ABC wanted to protect the child's identity, they could have simply left out the nephew part and mentioned the adult's name, which I thought was a very pointed comment.

John

Dehlin [00:42:34] Yeah. And in this case that we share Monday, they're actually going to share when. When the stake president. This is my memory. When the stake president was forced to. To. To. You know, because I think it was. It was two years. It was two years after the stake president knew that this guy was a child abuser, that he was actually put in jail. So for two years, the stake president allows this guy to be around members and, you know, warden stake members. He was excommunicated, thankfully, but no one was told why. No one was told that he was excommunicated and he was allowed to be around warden stake members without any warning because the guy finally got imprisoned. The stake president, I think, was forced to send an email out to the stake membership to know there was a child abuser in their midst. Guess what tiny bit of information they left out of that original email? Meggan, can you guess?

Guest [00:43:33]

No.

Meggan

Hayes [00:43:33] The guy's name.

John

Dehlin [00:43:34] His name.

Meggan

Hayes [00:43:35] Oh, my word. Guess who it is. Oh, my word.

John

Dehlin [00:43:41] Oh, I. I laugh about this stuff and I apologize because it's so disturbing.

Meggan

Hayes [00:43:45] Yeah, Yeah. I mean, some. I. I have that reaction sometimes. I laughed at a funeral one time and it just. It's like it just bubbles up and it's like. I don't even know how to react to this because it is so awful.

John

Dehlin [00:43:56] Yeah, it is. It is. I laugh. All right, Or I'd cry. And crying's not bad. Anyway, how about some good news? I think we have some good news now, Meggan, like to you, Meggan, let's. Let's celebrate the church when they do something good.

Kyle McKay Apologizes for

Racist

Comments

Meggan

Hayes [00:44:13]

Absolutely.

John

Dehlin [00:44:14] I think we have an example of them doing something good.

Meggan

Hayes [00:44:16] Let's see, what is it? Oh, yeah, Kyle McKay. Yeah. When I was gone last week, you talked about his talk at this state conference where he made some racist remarks.

John

Dehlin [00:44:29] As a. So just to be clear, I didn't know at the time. He is the official church historian.

Meggan

Hayes [00:44:36]

Yes.

John

Dehlin [00:44:36] Like Marlon Jensen. Like Carl Snow. Like Richard Turley. I believe he is the church historian. And of course, he's an attorney, not a historian. But he's the guy, right?

Meggan

Hayes [00:44:51] Yes, the guy.

John

Dehlin [00:44:53] And last week or whatever, we released some horrible or not horrible, but like, really cringy, kind of racist and. And, you know, gaffes.

Right.

Meggan

Hayes [00:45:05] Yes. Yeah, he just. He seemed so awkward. Yeah, he seemed very awkward.

John

Dehlin [00:45:10] Well, anyway, and. And of course, a member of the stake was. Who broke that news to. To me and Rebecca Biblioteca and

Bill.

Meggan

Hayes [00:45:19] I was on that email chain.

John

Dehlin [00:45:20] You were on that, too. We all got the email. I didn't have time to respond, but, you know, the story broke. We covered it. Lots of other people covered it. But tell us why it's significant what he did.

Meggan

Hayes [00:45:34] Apologizing. Well, our current prophet is on video. I don't know if that's called on the record saying the church neither seeks nor gives apologies.

John

Dehlin [00:45:47] Yeah, Down a joke's current Mormon prophet is on the record as saying the church neither seeks nor gives apologies, which I think that's cringy and unchristlike. But that's what he's on the record saying. I think that comes from a legal perspective. Yeah, I think it's basic legal advice. If you apologize, you're admitting guilt and that makes you liable for damages. So I think it's a legal position that he has. But it's very cringy for a special witness of Christ to say something like that. Don't apologize, don't repent. It's cringy. But anyway, that's why we were all stunned when this happened. Tell us about this.

Letter sent out to Stake members about the

Leak

Meggan

Hayes [00:46:26] Yeah, so this. After the video was leaked out and everyone spoke about it online quite a lot, this letter was sent out to the stake where the original video was broadcast. So I don't know if you want to read. Do you want to read the whole thing or.

John

Dehlin [00:46:43]

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [00:46:44]

Okay.

John

Dehlin [00:46:45] So, Church of Jesus Christ. Are you going to read it? You want to read it?

Meggan

Hayes [00:46:48] No, Go for it. Go for it.

John

Dehlin [00:46:49] The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It's on letterhead. It's on church letterhead. Yukon, Oklahoma Stake. Dear brothers and sisters, we are so grateful for the outpouring of the spirit and revelation we received as we gathered Last weekend for Stake conference, we hope you received personal revelation on ways you can draw closer to the Savior and experience the peace and healing power of his atonement to a greater degree in your life. Elder McKay, who presided at the conference, sent the attached letter to President Mendenhall regarding some comments he made in the general session and invited us to share it with anyone who could benefit. We have also received some questions about why the YouTube recording of State conference has been removed from the channel. Section 29.7 of the General Handbook outlines that the stake president can authorize live streaming of a Stake conference for the benefit of those who for health or other reason, are unable to gather in person, but instructs that stream recordings of Warden stake meeting should be deleted within one day after the meeting. Tell me, Meggan, why has the church implemented a policy that stream recordings should be deleted within one day after the meeting? Can you tell us why?

McKay's Stake Conference

Apology

Letter

Meggan

Hayes [00:48:13] Well, this is a great example, because things get said that they don't want on the record. It's. But it's wild coming from a church where the top leaders claim to be relaying to the people what God is saying. They don't want anyone to have a record of what God is saying.

John

Dehlin [00:48:29] Yeah, and this reminds me, I can't believe I'm forgetting his name already. Young men's President Guy Brad Whatever Wilcox it was, it was me that was that State Conference meeting where Brad Wilcox said all those super cringy things to the Alpine steak was leaked to me and we shared it. And that was to date, one of the most viral stories Mormon stories ever released. And I'm sure that's the Brad Wilcox rule.

Meggan

Hayes [00:48:57] Yes, because he has a little star

John

Dehlin [00:48:59] by it and says need to delete all recordings as soon as they're recorded. But anyway, it goes on to say, we love you and pray that the love, grace and blessings of our Savior Jesus Christ can continue to be poured out upon you and upon all those you love. And that we can continue to witness his miracles in our lives and in the lives of all those in the Yukon, Oklahoma State with love, President Mendehal, President nye, President Toole, UConn Oklahoma state presidency. Okay, so that's the. That's the wrapping email, right?

Meggan

Hayes [00:49:34]

Yes.

John

Dehlin [00:49:36] And then there's the actual apology letter again on Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints letterhead, 47th East South Temple. I can't believe they allowed this.

Meggan

Hayes [00:49:49] Do you think he had to get clearance?

John

Dehlin [00:49:51] Of course. There's just zero chance that he didn't run this by, you know, Kurt McConkey and. And President Oaks and Correlation and the church media department and Public Relations. Thousand percent. This was fully correlated.

Meggan

Hayes [00:50:10] Okay, well, you think it. I used to have this view that the church was like this well oiled machine. Right. And so when something came down, it was vetted and it'd been straight from God and it was so magical and everything just worked out so perfectly. But now when I see things from the church, it. It's a little messier for me. So I don't think that someone with his level of authority would just throw something out there. But I also wonder, what is the process? What is that actual process? Who did he actually have to run it by? Was it just the risk department at Curtin and McConkey or. Yeah, it's interesting. I wish I could see the steps.

John

Dehlin [00:50:52] The truth is, the church can be incredibly, egregiously incompetent and things can be ramroded without full committee approval across all the committees. So it's possible? It's possible, but I doubt it.

Meggan

Hayes [00:51:09] Yeah. I just always wonder what the process actually looks like.

John

Dehlin [00:51:12] I doubt it because I don't think at McKay's level, he would want to do anything that the Quorum of the twelve and the First Presidency wouldn't like. Because, I mean, I'm sure he would want to be an apostle, right?

Meggan

Hayes [00:51:25] Yeah. Yeah. Loyalty is important.

John

Dehlin [00:51:28] So, anyway, here's what the apology says. It's dated June 10, 2026. Dear President, this is the stake president, I believe. This is Kyle McKay writing at the beginning of my remarks this past Sunday in the UConn Oklahoma State Conference, I made a poor attempt at humor around the singing of this little light of mine. My words have caused offense and injury, and I put a blight on an otherwise wonderful weekend. I deeply regret saying what I said and apologize for pain, offense, or embarrassment that I have caused anyone in your stake or beyond. I pray that Jesus, who descended below all sin and errors, will somehow help heal wounds I may have caused and in the process, give me better vision and judgment. Please feel free to share this letter with anyone who might benefit from reading it, including Mormon Stories Podcast. All the best, elder Kyle S. McKay. Now, Meggan, if we were to grade that apology, there's lame apologies, there's mediocre apologies, and there's good apologies. How would you grade elder Kyle McKay's apology?

How to Grade Elder Kyle

McKay's

Apology

Meggan

Hayes [00:52:42] I think it's a good apology because he didn't say. The thing that so many people try to say is, I am sorry that you felt hurt or if.

John

Dehlin [00:52:52] If you felt hurt.

Meggan

Hayes [00:52:54] Yeah, I'm Sorry if that offended you. Instead of saying I caused pain, they push it out there. You were hurt. You were offended. He didn't do that. He said, I caused pain, period.

John

Dehlin [00:53:06] And he said, I apologize. He said the words apologize, which. How did Oakes approve this?

Meggan

Hayes [00:53:14] I don't know.

John

Dehlin [00:53:15] You know, maybe the church doesn't apologize, but. But leaders can.

Meggan

Hayes [00:53:21] Or maybe just historians, slash lawyers.

John

Dehlin [00:53:24] Or maybe people under the office of apostle. Maybe general authorities apologize, but not apostles.

Meggan

Hayes [00:53:32] I don't know. I don't know. It's a good apology. I. I want to. I would love it if he detailed what steps he's going to take to learn why his remarks were offensive. It'd be awesome if he was going to do some listening. And this is a very, very good first step, just admitting. Because that's a step that the church does not take.

John

Dehlin [00:53:56] Yeah. Yeah. So kudos, you know, Kudos to Kyle McKay for apologizing. Just no sarcasm, no backhanded compliments. Nice job, Kyle McKay. Good job. And good job. Anyone at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that approved and supported this apology, I see this as a major positive step forward. We all make mistakes. We're all imperfect. Apologies are healthy and good. And. Good job, comic and. And LDS church.

Guest [00:54:29]

Yep.

Meggan

Hayes [00:54:29] Absolutely. Let's. Let's do this more.

John

Dehlin [00:54:31] Yeah. Yeah. But. But good job. It's a good thing. It's a healthy thing to apologize.

So.

Meggan

Hayes [00:54:39] Yeah. Yeah. Well. And it. It gives him the opportunity to say, what can I learn from this? What? Why did my words hurt people?

John

Dehlin [00:54:47]

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [00:54:48] Yeah. It's a good opportunity for everybody.

John

Dehlin [00:54:50] Hey, look, Rebecca's in the chat. Mormonish says reports are that he has made this kind of joke several times before. Yeah, same with Brad Wilcox. Like those jokes he told at Alpine he had told numerous times before. I think these guys just, like, they get jokes that they like to tell in public, and they repeat them often until they become viral. Anyway, she says maybe not quite as bad as this time, but he has said things alluding to this before. It's his shtick. And so. Yeah, well, I bet he'll be more careful, and I bet other general authorities will also be more careful in the future.

Meggan

Hayes [00:55:27] Right. And I hope it's not just that. Right. Like, I hope he's not just doing this for this conversation that we're having, like, oh, I'm going to get a round of applause. I really hope that he understands that he at least tries to understand why. Why should I not have said that? Not just because people got upset, but what is the Background to these statements that I made. Why did I think it was okay?

John

Dehlin [00:55:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's super positive, so good job. All right, let's go to the next story, and here's a familiar face. Garrett Gong. The, you know, Oxford. I think it's Oxford educated, you know, genius, brilliant, good natured apostle. Gong. What's he got to tell us?

Elder Garrett Gong on

Artificial

Intelligence

Meggan

Hayes [00:56:14] Well, he's going to keep talking about AI Every time I see an article about Garrett Gong, it's him saying something about AI So his portfolio, like that.

John

Dehlin [00:56:22] We can't let the Pope get ahead of us. If the Pope's going to issue statements on AI, we've got to get Elder Gong out there speaking about it, too.

Meggan

Hayes [00:56:31] Well, plus, I see it as something that's likely threatening to the church, but we can watch his video and then we can.

John

Dehlin [00:56:36] All right.

Meggan

Hayes [00:56:37] Yes. Yeah, we'll see what he said.

John

Dehlin [00:56:38] I haven't seen this yet. So this is a cold. Can artificial intelligence replace God? That question may sound provocative, but in an age when we turn to algorithms for answers, guidance, and even comfort, it matters deeply. Artificial intelligence can answer questions, but it cannot answer prayers. It can organize information, but it cannot offer revelation, covenant connection, or divine truth. In this message, I explore how to hear God's voice clearly in an age of artificial intelligence, and why that distinction matters more now than ever. So, all right, I. Have you watched the other video he's referring to?

Can AI Offer Revelation in the Mormon Church?

Meggan

Hayes [00:57:31] Ken Artificial, the longer video? Yeah, I've watched about 10 videos, and I don't remember exactly which one this is referring to, but he. He has a whole outline of ways that members should use AI, ways they shouldn't use AI. And he's been to conferences where he talks to other world leaders and other religious leaders, and they talk about the implications of AI, how they believe it's biased toward religions.

Guest [00:57:56]

He.

Meggan

Hayes [00:57:57] He's done a lot with

AI.

John

Dehlin [00:57:59] Can I just say that? Number one, like, I know, like, I. I was really. Another thing, aside from the Michael Jackson comments, that really surprised me. And like all the Pride Day haters out there, whenever AI is used for one of our thumbnails, like, 10 or 20 of my viewers or listeners just lose their mind. You know, sometimes it's just too easy to not use AI for a thumbnail just because sometimes you don't want to have to pay a graphic designer or you don't have the skills or whatever. It's not like we want to kill penguins or, like, destroy the Earth, but, like, AI is here to stay. I don't know that it's like A cancelable offense to occasionally use AI. What are your thoughts on just AI generally, Meggan?

Meggan

Hayes [00:58:50] Well, I have people say things like that to me. I don't use AI a lot because I do have the skills. I'm a graphic designer. But I understand why it's so good for so many people. I have a child who is severely dyslexic, and this child has found ways through assistive technology to be very successful in what they do. And so with AI and with speech to text and being on devices, people get really upset about that stuff. And I think people do use it in a way that is a crotch. And they, they disadvantage themselves because they're not using their own brain to do things that they could. However, I think those technologies, and I've seen it in my own child, have allowed them to succeed in ways that they wouldn't be able to otherwise because of the disability that my child has. So can it be used just. Just to be lazy? Absolutely. But can it also allow people to flourish? Yes, it can.

John

Dehlin [00:59:58] Yeah. I sometimes I find AI to be incredibly unhelpful and lame and wrong and. But sometimes I find it to be magical, so, and transformative. So I'm not like an apostle for AI, But I'm also, I don't have a lot of patience with people that are, that are going to act like it's like an egregious act of evil to, to occasionally use AI to create a thumbnail. So again, viewers and listeners don't bother leaving comments about your outrage that we would even consider using AI Because I'm. I'm not going to be a purist. And I think purists often do more damage to the cause they are advocating for, you know, than opponents to whatever cause they're advocating for. So anyway, I will say I do think it's ironic, Gong's points that AI can't offer revelation. My question is, can Mormon prophets and apostles offer revelation? Like, how many people are. How many people? How many Mormons today wish that church apostles, prophets, sees or revelators would issue new revelations, add to the Doctrine and Covenants, actually prophesy, be sears or reveal? It seems like more and more these days they'll say things like, be careful with AI. Is that the best prophet Sarah Revelator has? Like, can you think of a genuine prophetic utterance like announcing new temples? Like, when have Mormon prophets and apostles actually issued prophecies? Like, the, the only thing I could think of is like undoing polygamy, which would be the official declaration. And they had to do a couple of those to actually get rid of it or undoing the. The priesthood and temple ban on black people or like rolling back the November 2015 policy after it caused a huge scandal. Can you think of a time when modern prophet sees and revelators have actually issued meaningful and lasting prophecies? Meggan?

Meggan

Hayes [01:02:22] No, no, it's all policy changes and like managerial type changes. Oh, we're going to shorten the meeting and, and we're going to make it longer and we're going to lower the missionary age. But it's not, it's not what Joseph Smith was doing. It's not. Here is we're going to have a priesthood and we're going to have. Those were the days of all of this revelation of, you know, supposedly God's instructions to his children.

John

Dehlin [01:02:54] Yeah, but, but do Mormon prophets prophesy these days? I guess.

Meggan

Hayes [01:02:58] I don't know. They. I. To me, if I look at the church as a corporation, everything they do makes sense. If I look at the church as a church that's getting inspiration from God, it doesn't make sense to me.

John

Dehlin [01:03:10] Yeah, yeah. So Gong, it's interesting that GONG makes that point because he seems smart enough to realize that his own colleagues are not really offering revelations. Like is is Russell M. Nelson's revelation that Mormons shouldn't use the term Mormon and that people shouldn't call it the Mormon Church. Is that what he's talking about as a revelation?

Meggan

Hayes [01:03:36] I don't know because we just watched that video with the Paris twins daily and they don't think it was that important.

John

Dehlin [01:03:43] Yeah, yeah. And. And to say that AI can't offer a covenant connection or divine truth. Like again, I would love to. I think it can. I. You know, I would love, I would love to put AI against Brigham Young or Joseph Smith or John Taylor or Wilford Woodruff or Lorenzo Snow or Heber J. Grant or Joseph Fielding Smith. I would love to like, put all of their statements into one bucket and then modern, enlightened AI into another bucket and ask some very basic questions and see who reveals more divine truth. You know, like, why are black people black? Or why should women be equal? You know? Or is what's the healthiest composition for a marriage? I would love to ask, though, bring those people, those prophets back from the dead versus AI and see who has the best truth. What do you think the result would be?

Meggan

Hayes [01:04:59] Well, you wouldn't get stuff as, as fun as Quakers living on the moon, so it might not be as exciting, but exactly, yes. AI with all its limitations can give some really good points and advice.

John

Dehlin [01:05:14] Yeah, I think I would trust. I would trust AI on average over your average Mormon profit seer and revelator 100 times out of 100 times.

Meggan

Hayes [01:05:28] Yeah. Because if you put into AI, when should the. When should the pioneers leave to come? The Martin and Willie handcart companies leave to come to Salt Lake? I would not have told them to leave when they did.

John

Dehlin [01:05:40] How about whether or not you. If you're gay, you should engage in conversion therapy or enter a mixed orientation marriage or celibacy? What about, you know, whether or not you should apologize? What about whether or not you should be honest, you know, with your fellow humans about your history? Like, there's just, you know, whether women and men should be equal in and hold positions of power and influence. Like there's just basic human rights that a modern Mormon prophet, serum revelator could not advocate for or support.

Mormon Prophets vs.

AI

Guest [01:06:18]

Yeah.

John

Dehlin [01:06:19] Or who should you trust? You know, how to protect children? I bet AI could come up with a much better program for protecting children than

Garrett

Gong.

Guest [01:06:32]

Yeah.

John

Dehlin [01:06:33] Or. Or Delano jokes.

Meggan

Hayes [01:06:36] Yeah. I mean, maybe they could come up with one, but they wouldn't be allowed to put it out there.

John

Dehlin [01:06:40] I'm. I'm just saying. Then they're not coming out with it.

Meggan

Hayes [01:06:43]

Yeah.

John

Dehlin [01:06:44] Doesn't count if it's.

If.

Meggan

Hayes [01:06:46] Yeah, it doesn't count if it's not actually protecting children.

John

Dehlin [01:06:49] Yeah. Yeah. All right, so have fun. Garrett Gong warning people that they should be listening to you and your colleagues for revelation and truth and divine connection. I think you need to do a lot better. You're gonna have to. I'll just say this. Mormon prophets or revelators, you're gonna have to up your game before you claim that you should be listened to over AI. And I don't say that as a blind lover of all AI. I think AI is deeply problematic, but they're orders of magnitude superior to the average Mormon prophet, seer and revelator in terms of truth and revelation and wisdom. So far.

Guest [01:07:33]

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [01:07:33] Yeah, surprise us.

John

Dehlin [01:07:35] By all means, I would love you to outdo AI. All right, what's the next story?

Judge Jay Jorgensen: Recusal Not Needed in

Church

Meggan

Hayes [01:07:42] LDS Church attorney, his name is Jorgensen, says recusal not needed in all church cases. Yeah, Jay.

Jay

Jorgensen.

John

Dehlin [01:07:52] Okay. Yeah. This is interesting. So tell us about the story.

Meggan

Hayes [01:07:56] So Jay Jorgensen was nominated to be on the Supreme Court in Utah, and he is also a lawyer for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I've heard one of the top

John

Dehlin [01:08:09] lawyers is what I heard.

Meggan

Hayes [01:08:10] Yeah. So he does talk about exactly. In this paragraph. So let's read this. It says right out of the gate he, Jay was asked by Senate Judicial Confirmation Committee Chair Todd Weiler or Wheeler, a Republican from Woods Cross, if he would recuse himself from certain cases. And this is what Jay replied. The law of judicial recusals is quite clear. I commit. I'll follow it 100%.

John

Dehlin [01:08:32] Jorgensen, which is a non answer.

Okay.

Meggan

Hayes [01:08:35] Yeah, yeah. Senator Weiler raised questions about diversity and bias, including pointedly asking Jorgensen if he had any difficulty working with LGBTQ people. Not at all was Jorgensen's reply, adding that a judge's role is to show no bias in case. Okay, interesting. And despite working as a senior lawyer for the LDS Church, Jorgensen said after the hearing he does not anticipate he would have to recuse himself from cases before the court involving the church. He said he has worked exclusively with Brigham Young University Pathway Worldwide, which engages in educational work in parts of the world like Nigeria, Ghana and the Philippines. I would need to recuse from BYU pathway work, but the church is organized by geographic areas and I am not assigned to the Utah area and never have been. So I would not need to recuse.

John

Dehlin [01:09:25] That's interesting because he seems to be implying that if he had worked in other areas of the church, he would need to recuse himself. So that's. That's interesting that he would say that. Go ahead, make it. Keep, keep going.

Meggan

Hayes [01:09:40] Well, no, I just think there, you know, there was that video that was leaked quite a few years back of the. I don't. It was it a senator who was in speaking with the quorum of the 12 and saying, you know, I, I have my loyalties to my constituents, but what is it that you guys want me to do? Like that sort of vibe.

John

Dehlin [01:10:01]

Yeah.

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [01:10:02] So can someone in Utah especially who grown up in the church, has the position of power that they have, works as a lawyer for the church, be an impartial judge? I don't, I don't know. As a devout member, I would not have been impartial. Yeah, I wouldn't have been. I don't, I don't. Maybe he is more evolved than I was.

John

Dehlin [01:10:26] Yeah, yeah. I'll just say that, you know, I was involved in a really expensive multi year defamation lawsuit that was in Utah courts. And I was constantly terrified that we would draw a judge who would be faithful lds and just because I'm John de Lynn would rule against me. And weirdly, we got the son of James E. Faust. So James E. Faust was a Mormon apostle. His son Robert Foust is who we drew and I don't know if he's active LDS or not. I just assumed he was. But weirdly, we won that case. So either he was unbiased or we had a really good case or, or both. But in this, in this lawsuit now, where the church is, you know, suing me in the Open Stories foundation, you know, it's federal court, but many of the federal judges in the district, in the Utah district are lds. And so I'm constantly mindful and, or terrified at the possibility of faithful LDS judges letting their commitment and devotion and bias with the church either intentionally or subconsciously affecting cases.

Meggan

Hayes [01:11:48] Because we all, if they're endowed, we know what they've promised.

John

Dehlin [01:11:51]

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [01:11:52] All of their time, talents. Does it save money to the church? It doesn't say to Jesus. It doesn't say to God to the church.

John

Dehlin [01:12:01]

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [01:12:02] That is their first responsibility and they have covenanted to that responsibility.

John

Dehlin [01:12:06] Yeah. One question I'm wondering with this senator, tell me if, you know, with this Republican Senator Wyler asking him if he would recuse himself, do you think Wyler would want him to recuse himself or do you think Wyler was hoping he would not recuse himself because he wants to make sure that the Utah Supreme Court is stacked to the benefit of the LDS Church? That's the question I had.

Meggan

Hayes [01:12:34] Yeah. I don't know. I didn't look into Wyler's past decisions enough and what he has voted for to, to have a say on that. But that's an interesting. I hadn't thought of that. That's a really interesting take.

John

Dehlin [01:12:46] Yeah. It could be like I won't vote to confirm you if you say you would recuse yourself from cases involving the church. Because I'm sure the church wants to stack the courts in its favor.

Meggan

Hayes [01:12:59]

Certainly.

John

Dehlin [01:12:59] And I'm sure legislators who are faithful would want to also help stack the, the Supreme Court in its favor. By the way, we should note that it was Gary Cox, the governor, as I understand it, who appointed these two new seats or, or nominees for the Supreme Court. And of course, Cox nominates two faithful Mormons because that feels on brand for him. So you've got this next slide that says what the verdict was.

Meggan

Hayes [01:13:33] Yeah. Jorgensen was confirmed by a vote of 22 to 7. Jorgensen's appointment was advanced on a party line vote with the 1 3rd party senator, Senator Emily Buss of the Utah Forward Party, joining all Democrats in opposition.

John

Dehlin [01:13:45] So Democrats are. No, Republicans are. Yes. Republicans are mostly faithful. It's possible that some of Those Democrats are also faithful.

Meggan

Hayes [01:13:53] Yeah, yeah. Happens more and more nowadays. A little more diversity.

Jeff Strong's Book '

Torn'

Criticism

John

Dehlin [01:13:59] All right, well, let's jump to the next, the next story, and this involves our good friend Jeff Strong. I consider him a friend. You and I, Meggan, covered his book Torn and some of the data that he released about the number of people leaving the church and why. But one of our least favorite blogs on the Internet, Meridian magazine, recently published a critique of Jeff Strong's book Torn. And I'll just say it's not just Meridian magazine. You know, I think several faithful YouTube channels, some that I don't like to mention, are going after Jeff Strong in his book. I think there's some BYU professors and even the Deseret News that are going after Jeff Strong in his book. I think that Public Square Instagram channel that I associate with Ralph Hancock is kind of going after him. So, like he's getting some blowback. What are your, what do you want to say about this story, Meggan?

Meggan

Hayes [01:15:07] Well, yeah, so I looked at the first article that you, because you sent me the article and said look into this. And it was by this woman, I think her name is Christy, the first one that's pictured there. But then she referenced the Deseret News article and she also referenced another article by C.D. cunningham and another article by the other gentleman that was pictured there. So she kind of linked to all of those in her first couple of paragraphs.

John

Dehlin [01:15:34] She's not aggregating the critiques.

Meggan

Hayes [01:15:36] Yes, yes. And after I read through all of those, I read the Desert News article, I read C.D. cunningham's article, I read the article by the other gentleman whose name I can't remember. I read her article. To me, they all said the same thing. And we'll kind of get into what that is. I just put tiny little portions of each one.

John

Dehlin [01:15:52] All right, let's do it.

Meggan

Hayes [01:15:53] Here's the first she said. I take issue, however, with some of the ways in which church members are characterized in this book. I do not take personal offense at these characterizations, but in my lived experiences there are so many church members who are amazing, kind and Christ like. These people are not represented in Strong's book. He seems to make over generalized characterizations of the majority of church members as ignorant, close minded and unaware of the struggles of real life or the struggles of those around them. This is simply not accurate.

Jeff Strong on Latter Day

Saint

Culture

John

Dehlin [01:16:21] Okay. And that's Christy Lakeep, I guess.

Meggan

Hayes [01:16:25] Yeah, Lakeep. I think she's. Well, I don't actually know. She, she does talk. She goes through a really long stories of when she Lived out of the country and was alone and didn't speak the language and how members of the church were super duper kind to her.

John

Dehlin [01:16:43] I'll just say, you know, my, I haven't read his book cover to cover because it's mostly a cultural critique. And I, I don't even feel like it's my role to really comment on or try to shape Mormon faithful LDS culture at this point. Yeah, they don't care what I think and it's just not my circus, you know. Yeah, so, but, but that's why it was hard for me to get interested. Plus, and I told Jeff this, that you know, Jeff's main point, this is my words, not his. He can't say it's bad prophets, bad prophet seers or revelators, bad doctrine, bad policies. As a faithful church member, Jeff Strong can't say any of that or he'll get excommunicated and also minimize the effectiveness of his work. So what Strong is about is saying my words, not his, that the only thing we can criticize are the members themselves. So what he basically says is there is an opportunity for Mormon culture to improve. Here are ways that people who have left the church have expressed suboptimal treatment by Mormons and Mormon culture. And this is an opportunity for, you know, faithful Latter Day Saints to improve their culture to make it less likely for people to leave. So he's going to be including anecdotes of people who have left, saying here are ways I was not treated great by Mormons or by Mormon culture. So that's what he was trying to do in the book. Now Meggan, what do you think about this quote as a framing for what he did in the book, which is basically, the book characterizes the majority of members as ignorant, closed minded and unaware of the struggles of real life. Do you think that's a fair characterization of what Jeff Strong was doing?

Meggan

Hayes [01:18:51] No. And I think like after reading her whole article, she is forgetting that both things could be true at the same time. She could have a really good experience with someone. Let's say it's me. I'm the one who went to her when she was a single mom and I helped her feel included. At the same time, I could have a brother who left the church and I'm treating him as an outcast. Those two things can happen at the same time. She can have her really good experience with a church member and someone who is having doubts or leaving the church can have a bad experience with that same person. So she's just, I felt like she was forgetting that both of those things could exist at the same time. Which is the same about Jeff's book. People can be having bad experiences with the same people that other people are having good experiences with them.

John

Dehlin [01:19:41] Yeah, I'll just say, like, it's so comical. What she seems to be doing is like illustrating the problem. Like, yeah, like if his point is, members are cringy, they're insensitive, they're ignorant, they're closed minded. Christy Lakip or Lakhip is illustrating that. She can't just say, hey, yeah, we can do better. There's always opportunities to improve. And let's listen for once and let's show empathy and compassion and no one's perfect and we can learn and grow and let's learn. And Mormons, just faithful Mormons and especially Mormon apologists just have to be cringy. They have to be tone deaf, they have to be defensive, and most importantly, they have to attack anyone who's a messenger for truth and improvement. It's just like, oh, somebody's saying the king has no clothes on when the king is literally naked. Let's kill him. Assassinate their character. It's just so dumb.

Meggan

Hayes [01:20:50] And yeah. Yes. And she basically bears her testimony for three paragraphs about that, saying, the church was good to me. That's. That was the next slide.

Christy Lakhip on Being Too Sensitive and

Easily

Off

John

Dehlin [01:21:02] Okay, all right, so let's go to the next slide. And this is her again. This is still

Christy

Lakhip.

Meggan

Hayes [01:21:08] Yeah, so this, this is just summing up what we've already talked about. She bears her testimony and says, I, I had such a good experience. So you can go to the next one.

John

Dehlin [01:21:17] She says, I, I want to read this. It is unfortunate and detrimental that in our society people are becoming increasingly sensitive and easily offended. So we've got the snowflake argument.

Meggan

Hayes [01:21:27] There's.

John

Dehlin [01:21:28] So she's giving. Yeah, I won't say it. Often looking for a cause for offense because they're already angry or unhappy. Oh, great. So she's going to deploy the trope of easily offended. Looking to be offended. That's so tone deaf and off putting. This leads to misplaced anger and abstantiated blame. So she's going to invalidate any concerns as legitimate. Having an external locus of control and being quick to take offense and both diminish the power of our own agency. Because, yeah, anyone who's got any concern or has been mistreated is self victimizing. The power to act and impact the situation rather than being impacted by external experiences and forces. I wonder if she would Accuse victims of child abuse as being. Assuming an identity of victimhood.

Meggan

Hayes [01:22:23] But, yeah, I was getting these two slides confused because the other one was the one I wanted to focus on. Sorry. So the one where she talks about locus of control, Every single article that I read that she referenced to, that we're talking about torn all, brought up that exact same argument and framed it in the exact same way. It was so weird. So. And because in the church, I felt like my locus of control was outside of me. I was given all of my choices. Those didn't come from within. They were given to me by the church. I was told how I could act as a woman, what I could wear, what I could eat and drink, the words I could use, how I spent my Sundays, all of that. And every single one of these people who are saying Jeff's book wasn't great are saying, because when you're in the church, your locus of control is inside you. And when you leave the church, you no longer have that, which just seemed so backwards to me. And I don't know why. Every single. Like, did one person write an article and then they all read it and they loved that part, so they. They borrowed it? I don't know. But every article I read had that same argument.

John

Dehlin [01:23:35] Yeah, it's just so cringy. And, you know, not just, why can't you be gracious? Like, how hard would it be for these people just to be loving? Like, what does it mean to be a follower of Christ? And in Christ church, can you imagine Christ saying these words? I just. I want. I want you to just pretend that these are the words of Christ. So close your eyes, everybody. You see the Prince of Peace, the, you know, Christ himself, and he says, behold, Behold, I say unto you that you are increasingly sensitive and easily offended. Behold, thou art looking for a cause for offense because you are already angry or unhappy. Behold, you have an external locus of control and are quick to take offense when you've been hurt by your fellow men. Like, it's just. How do these people even pretend to be followers of Christ, who is all about humility and forgiveness and listening and love and. And kindness and patience and forbearance and forgiving your enemies, let alone people who you've actually offended? It's just ridiculous.

Meggan

Hayes [01:24:57] Yes, people tend to get offended when people do stuff that's offensive. And I know there are people who take it to an extreme. But like, those of us who were hurt at church or by the church or by the members were offended because something offensive was done. What we do with that is our responsibility. But acknowledging it doesn't make us bad people.

John

Dehlin [01:25:16] Yeah. Okay, what else? So tell me which slides you want to read and. Or skip.

She Said There's No Reason to Leave the

Church

Meggan

Hayes [01:25:22] Oh, so this was just the one where I summed up her bearing her testimony. So she just talked about for many paragraphs, three or four at least, big ones, about how her experience in the church was good.

John

Dehlin [01:25:33] Okay, I'll save my comments on that one. So let's go to the next one.

Meggan

Hayes [01:25:39] Yeah, so then this one she says, I'm not so concerned about what Strong says, but more concerned about how people may interpret Torn. It could serve as validation for many who are seeking justification to leave the church or who have already left, regardless of the legitimacy of their reasons for leaving. Choosing to no longer keep covenants that one has made is a serious decision that should not be taken lightly. I do not believe that Strong is advocating disaffiliation. I simply believe that Torn, poorly interpreted or taken out of context, could very well serve as fuel for anti Mormon flame.

John

Dehlin [01:26:14] And that's interesting because, like, she would probably name me as a top three anti Mormon, which I hate that term, but she would. I'm not. I was not even interested in Jeff's critique of Mormon culture. And there's no way that I would, like, do an episode where I'm going to be like, yes, we have criticisms of Mormon culture. Let's shame the church with all their bad culture. No, it's like, no. Good job, Jeff Strong for trying to be a constructive part of the solution. Yay. Let's have a dialogue about how we can make the church healthier for everyone. That's. What's this. Anti Mormons are going to use this for fodder.

Meggan

Hayes [01:27:01] I don't know. I don't know.

Guest 2 [01:27:02]

She.

Meggan

Hayes [01:27:02] She insinuates that there is no legitimate reason to leave. So if she's coming from that perspective, then his book could seem like it would give people a place to land. You know, if you're. If you're nice to people who leave, they'll just keep leaving. Well, they wouldn't leave if the church was what it claimed to be. I mean, people still would, but the majority of people who left is because they found out the church is not what it claims to be a part of.

John

Dehlin [01:27:30] What's weird is that she just. She is the problem. She is the type of person that's causing people to leave in droves. So she's just. She's be. She's. She's almost. It's almost satirical. She's almost self satisfied.

The

Situation.

Meggan

Hayes [01:27:50] Yeah. She's one of the people who's like you. There's just no reason to leave. There's just no reason to leave. I've had such a good experience, which is.

John

Dehlin [01:27:59] That's.

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [01:28:01] What do people experience when they leave? I'm super hurt. Well, you shouldn't be, because my Relief Society sister brought me bread today. You know it.

Yeah.

John

Dehlin [01:28:07] I should say, by the way, Meridian magazine has always been like, some of the worst things ever produced by Mormons. So it's not surprising that this comes from Meridian magazine. Let's go to the second article by C.D. cunningham.

Torn: The Long awaited Key to Latter Day

Saint

Disaff

Meggan

Hayes [01:28:24] Yeah. And I have to say I've read a lot by CD Cunningham and I am always bothered. I do not like what he writes about. I don't. I don't like the way he frames things. So this. This one, he says, a new book about deconverts.

John

Dehlin [01:28:40]

Okay.

Meggan

Hayes [01:28:41] Why is he using. I don't. You tell me your reaction about that in a minute.

John

Dehlin [01:28:44] I've never heard that word before.

Meggan

Hayes [01:28:45] I know, right? From the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has successfully made its way into the broader conversation. Jeff Strong's Torn has been relentlessly marketed, and many have presented it as either dangerous or groundbreaking or both. I'm not convinced it is not the long awaited key to Latter Day Saint disaffiliation. It is not some groundbreaking new approach. It is a sometimes useful, often sincere, frequently repetitive book about being nicer to people who struggle with faith. And it's wrapped up in data that tells us far less than it intends.

John

Dehlin [01:29:19] I mean, that feels like just a close to a smear job, really. He's just trying to discredit it, you know?

Meggan

Hayes [01:29:27] Yeah, yeah. And he. He comes off always very strong in whatever his view is. Like, he doesn't seem to have a lot of nuance.

John

Dehlin [01:29:35] Yeah. Like relentlessly marketed. Like, should you market, you know, timidly? Like, what does he want? Does he. Why is he mocking relentlessly? Just implies that it's something bad about the fact. And Jeff has done a great job of marketing.

Meggan

Hayes [01:29:54]

Yeah.

John

Dehlin [01:29:54] He almost frames that as a bad thing. And he's saying it's not. It's neither dangerous. That's good, but also not groundbreaking, which I think is objectively false. I think it is a groundbreaking book. And it's saying it's not, you know, the key to disaffiliation. I don't think Jeff would claim that it was. I think he would claim that it's a book that could be useful. He's saying it's not Groundbreaking. It is kind of groundbreaking and new. The. The number of people he surveyed and the types of information he, you know, his methodologies. It is groundbreaking. It absolutely is groundbreaking. So he's wrong there. He does say it's often sincere, sometimes useful, but also frequently impetitive, repetitive. So he's got to get a barb in there. Right. Then he's kind of like. It's almost like sneering. It's about being nicer. As if being nice is bad.

Meggan

Hayes [01:30:59]

Yeah.

John

Dehlin [01:31:00] And he's saying the data tells us far less than it intends. I don't like this guy.

Meggan

Hayes [01:31:07] No. I don't care for him. Like I said, I've read a lot of his stuff and I've not liked any of it. So this is the. This slide here is what Jeff has actually said about his research. He's never claimed that it's the end all, be all. He has been very upfront about the limitations of the way he conducted his research. That's what this slide was.

John

Dehlin [01:31:23] Yeah. It's just a class act. He's smart, he's faithful. Former mission president, like former, you know, helper to at least one or more members of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. You can't get any better than this guy, Jeff Strong, you know.

Guest 2 [01:31:41]

Yeah.

John

Dehlin [01:31:41] And he loves data. Like, anyway.

Meggan

Hayes [01:31:44] Yeah. So this is. This is a picture of cd. He goes on to say, torn reveals a community anxious about losing people. We want answers. We want ways forward. And while the advice is good and can continue to improve our spaces, we making them better and more welcoming for so many others. It gives them language to excuse choices they still feel defensive about because they made me do it. So it's that blame, blame. The people will tell the people who left that they're blaming the church instead of taking responsibility for their own actions.

Guest 2 [01:32:17]

Yeah.

John

Dehlin [01:32:18] I just don't know that humans work that way. It's kind of almost like this don't apologize mental mentality where, oh, we can't apologize or we may have legal liability. It's like, oh, we can't acknowledge that we've made mistakes because then it will allow people to have excuses that they don't have to be members anymore. Like, really? Is that. Is that Christianity? I thought Jesus said, repent when you do something wrong. Not, don't repent, because then people may feel justified in the. You validating that you've acted wrongly. Like, how is this guy calling himself a Christian in any way?

Maven on The Mormon Church's '

Meggan

Hayes [01:32:57] I don't know. And it mirrors what the previous article was saying in that there is no legitimate reason to leave. I think that really is his belief. So when people do, he can't have understanding for them because he doesn't think it's legitimate.

John

Dehlin [01:33:11] Yeah, I love Maven. Our dear friend Maven is in the comments and he writes relentless marketing, like missionary work. It's like, yeah, talk about relevance marketing. How about the I'm a Mormon campaign by the church? Yeah, it's like somehow relentless marketing is a bad thing. It's actually very Mormon. Okay, keep going, Meggan.

Daniel T ellsworth on

Church

Culture

Meggan

Hayes [01:33:35] This is the next guy, Daniel T ellsworth. This was another article that came up and that was linked in all the other ones. And he says we would do well to identify the highest possible experiences available to us in the restored gospel. All of them, including personal knowledge of Christ, guidance from legitimately authorized messengers, the gifts of the spirit, and a cohesive, caring community are currently experienced in every stake throughout the world by people who are beset by all of the issues of church culture that Jeff Strong identifies in his book. These privileges are most experienced by people who are converted to Christ and converted to the church, bearing deep personal convictions that the church is what we claim it to be. Okay, that's his critique.

John

Dehlin [01:34:22] And what are your thoughts on that?

Meggan

Hayes [01:34:24] Sorry, what?

John

Dehlin [01:34:25] What are your thoughts on that?

Meggan

Hayes [01:34:27] It's just the same thing. Like, if you were converted as I am and the other people, you would view your experiences as good.

John

Dehlin [01:34:38]

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [01:34:38] You would find a way. You would find a way.

John

Dehlin [01:34:42] It's like gaslighting. It's like self gaslighting. Yeah, yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [01:34:47] And there were pages and pages and pages of these articles.

John

Dehlin [01:34:50]

Okay.

Meggan

Hayes [01:34:52] He then says, I mentioned previously the impact of therapy culture, which exploded into the consciousness of women in the church through influencers like Julie Hanks, who is Julie de Azevedo now, who led many women out of the church with a new gospel of self centered therapy.

John

Dehlin [01:35:08] Man, you gotta throw Julie under the bus while you're at it.

Okay.

Meggan

Hayes [01:35:12] In 2020, church members also became aware of rival ideologies such as modern branches of Marxism, that were being actively promoted to untold numbers of Latter Day Saint youth in church universities until the much needed reforms that were implemented in Elder Gilbert's tenure as commissioner of the church educational system.

John

Dehlin [01:35:31] Wow. So they're going full Marxist language now. Like the church. This is the whole, like, quick, the BYU is, you know, higher education is Marxist and elitist. And, you know, we can't send our kids to BYU to lose their testimonies. So we need more faithful university education that isn't. That isn't secular. You know what I mean, yes, and

Meggan

Hayes [01:35:57] this is the, the conclusion that I think sums up every article I read. And it's by this last gentleman this bears stating in the clearest way possible. No amount of improvement of church culture can help Latter Day Saints who have authored their own exclusion and their own sense of non belonging by embracing ideologies that are inimical to the restored gospel. When a person is actively poisoning and hardening the soul of their own heart by embracing rival belief systems, we can love them and communicate to them how much they are valued. But the locus of control is within that person and they are fully empowered to reverse their experience of conflict with the church.

John

Dehlin [01:36:35] So basically, there's no reasonable grounds to say a member has ever had a bad experience with another member. Church culture, there's no good reason to feel hurt by the church or to experience harm in the church. And there's no room for, for self critique or self analysis or self evaluation that members might be able to help foster a more healthy culture. There's just no grounds for that, apparently.

Meggan

Hayes [01:37:04] Yeah, because if you are hurt by someone at church, it's because you chose to be hurt.

John

Dehlin [01:37:09] Yeah. Okay, well, I want to hear your closing thoughts on these critiques of Jeff Strong and then I have a take any, any final thoughts from you?

Jeff Strong: Critiques of the

Church

Meggan

Hayes [01:37:19] Well, I was just bothered by it. Well, and it, as you said, they were illustrating exactly what Jeff was talking about. Yeah, that, that is the overall. Yeah, the overall feeling of their articles is that if you have left, it's because you're not faithful enough and you got offended and you should probably just come back.

John

Dehlin [01:37:41] Yeah, here's my thought. You know, when I was for the first ten Years of Mormon Stories podcast, I was trying to do it right. I was trying to have the right tone. I was trying to be as faithful as I can be and make the critiques or discuss the history, never criticize the brethren. Like I was trying to self tone police to have the biggest impact, but also to, you know, have faithful people want to listen and have the church not take action against me. And then once I got excommunicated, I really feel like for years and years and years I beat myself up. Well, what if I had had a better tone? What if I had not gotten angry? What if Captain John hadn't come out quite enough? Could I have maintained my membership? Could I had, could I been more accepted? Could I have helped make more change from within? And what, what this little exchange with Jeff Strong sort of just proves to me, if it has been proven to me 50 times between then and now is that it does not matter how faithful you are, how good your tone is, how research based, your critiques are, how diplomatic you are. It doesn't even matter how high you've raised up in the ranks of the church or how close you are with current senior members of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. If you say anything at all that suggests that the Church has room for improvement either in the culture or in the leadership or in the doctrine or in the theology, you're going to get attacked by the Church's thugs and eventually you're going to be made an enemy of the Church. And if Jeff Strong can't be treated with love and kindness and support, I

Guest 2 [01:39:32] mean,

John

Dehlin [01:39:34] that is a real condemnation of Mormon culture.

Meggan

Hayes [01:39:37] Yes. Yeah, they've proven his point.

John

Dehlin [01:39:41] Yeah, they really. They really have proven his point. Their exhibits A, B and C and D. Yes.

Guest 2 [01:39:48]

Cd.

Meggan

Hayes [01:39:49] CD gets to be C and

D.

John

Dehlin [01:39:53] Love you, Jeff Strong. Keep up the great work.

Meggan

Hayes [01:39:57]

Absolutely.

John

Dehlin [01:39:58] Yeah. All right, next story.

Church to Publish Nauvoo Journal of

William

Clayton

Meggan

Hayes [01:40:01] So this screenshot here is actually from October of 2025, where it says, church plans to publish Nauvoo Journal of William Clayton. And then out to the side, I just put a little timeline. So in 1854, William Clayton donated his three volume Nauvoo journal to the church. And then in 20. So they've had it very long time. And then in 2017, the Church History department first announced its plans to publish the journal. That was a few years ago.

John

Dehlin [01:40:31]

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [01:40:32] And then In October of 2025, the completed manuscript was submitted to Yale for peer review and editing.

John

Dehlin [01:40:40]

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [01:40:40] And then in this month, June of 2026, three PDFs were released on StillMormon.com so that's the timeline that we're looking at. And the next slide talks about who Clayton was for people who don't understand his significance. But keep that timeline in mind. Clayton joined the church in England. He was baptized by Heber C. Kimball in the river Ribble on October 21, 1837. Clayton moved to Nauvoo, Illinois in 1840. Between 1842 and 1846, he was a clerk, treasurer, temple recorder, and confidant of Joseph Smith and his wife, Emma Smith. Clayton was the clerk of the first company of Pioneers to enter the Salt Lake Valley in 1847. He penned the words to the pioneer hymn, Come Come ye Saints in April 1846. He served a mission to England from 1852 to 1853 and died in Utah on December 4, 1879 at the age of 65. So you could see why a journal from him could be important to church history.

John

Dehlin [01:41:42] Yeah. And you know, we, I did a 41 part series on Joseph Smith with Professor John Turner. And John Turner was allowed to read and hold and access the William Clayton journals for his biography of Joseph Smith. And there is a reason why the church has kept these private. They are scandalous. We're talking threesomes in Nauvoo level scandalous. And so anyway, I've got a really cool announcement that I want to make, but let's go ahead and let you finish the story.

James Allen Released the

Nauvoo

Journals

Meggan

Hayes [01:42:26] Okay, so this is what we've been offered this week. This is stillmormon.com if you go here, it says download the William Clayton Nauvoo journals. You put your email address in there, which I did, and you hit submit and sure enough, I got some PDFs. So go, go to the next screen and we'll see what those look like. This is not what I was expecting. If I was thinking of a journal from the 1800s, I didn't expect it

John

Dehlin [01:42:51] to look like this because it's a transcript. It's not.

Meggan

Hayes [01:42:56] Right, Right. But even if you go to the Joseph Smith papers, you can see both. Right. You can see the actual written thing and then you can see the transcript. So this is what I got. This is what has been released. And go ahead and go to the next.

Guest [01:43:08]

So.

Meggan

Hayes [01:43:08] And this is a comment that someone made on Reddit. So not the journals, but the James Allen version of the journals. This seems very misleading to present it as the journals. It's not. It's a copy, but we don't know how in depth. I will wait until the actual journals come out. So then I was like, well, who's James B. Allen?

John

Dehlin [01:43:27]

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [01:43:28] And that's what that previous talks about who he was. So. So what has been released is something that James Allen transcribed, but because we can't compare it to the actual manuscript, we don't know what he included. And what he left out is that is my understanding.

John

Dehlin [01:43:46] Okay. And so thank you for that, Meggan. And I'll just make my announcement, which I'm excited about. So many of you know Brian Buchanan. He's been on Mormon Stories in the past. He is the half of the Sunstone History podcast with Lindsay Hansen park, one of the most brilliant Mormon historical minds on the planet. He also works at Benchmark Books and he's just funny and interesting and brilliant. We had Brian Buchanan on Mormon Stories podcast two days ago. And me and Julia and Brian Buchanan and Nemo did a 5 1/2 hour deep dive on the William Clayton journals. So for like three, three and a half hours, we talk about the entire history of these journals and William Clayton and them being held and then them being leaked and Sandra Tanner and E hat and all these BYU professors and this major lawsuit that happened with the Tanners and Andrew Ehat and others. And you know, why the transcripts were made and Leonard Arrington and the church history department and all that stuff. We do like three, three and a half hours on that. And it's a fascinating story and everybody needs to listen to it because it's just gripping. And then we spend another couple hours going through these, this, this transcript because it turns out this is an actual credible transcript and it was unethically obtained. It's deeply problematic how it was obtained and how it was released, but it is apparently authentic and complete. And also it's deeply, deeply troubling and disturbing. And for sure it contains some of the most scandalous and outrageous and egregious indictments of Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith's polygamy. So you will want to stay tuned to hear us talking about all of that and more. But we cannot endorse how it was obtained, how it was released. So that part's unfortunate.

Coming Soon: The

William

Clayton

Diaries

Guest [01:46:10]

Yeah.

Meggan

Hayes [01:46:11] Interesting. Well, I can't wait now. I can't wait. Even that little brief synopsis that I got today, that makes it even more interesting.

John

Dehlin [01:46:19] And Ben park has come out and talked about it as well. So anyway, so stay tuned for that. But it's, it's a big deal. The diaries are a big deal.

Meggan

Hayes [01:46:30] Yeah, yeah, he was close to

Joseph

Smith.

John

Dehlin [01:46:34] Dan Vogel's in the chat, which I always love. Hey, Dan Bogle, you're a legend. Dan writes Romney's transcripts are not the best. So I'm, I don't know if he's saying that the, that what was released were Romney's transcripts and not Alan's.

Meggan

Hayes [01:46:49] No, I think someone made a comment a little further up saying, oh, you could always go to these ones and mention to Romney and he's just replying to that.

John

Dehlin [01:46:56] Okay, got it, got it. Okay. Anyway, stay tuned for the full story on that. It's a banger. And Dan Vogel, you're always welcome in our chats. We love you. Buy all of Dan Vogel's books, everybody. Okay, Is it the last story?

Former BYU Football Player His Rape

Charge

Dismissed

Meggan

Hayes [01:47:12] No, but the next viewer, real quick. So this is Parker Kingston. His rape charge was dismissed.

John

Dehlin [01:47:18] BYU football player.

Meggan

Hayes [01:47:20] Yes. Former wide receiver for byu. And. But they were dismissed without prejudice.

John

Dehlin [01:47:26] So reconvicted.

Meggan

Hayes [01:47:28] Yes. So the state is going to Refile. Yeah, it just. That all happened this week. They were dismissed. And then the next day or, you know, 24 plus hours later, the state said they're going to refile.

John

Dehlin [01:47:39] Premature to say something rotten happened, probably.

Right.

Meggan

Hayes [01:47:42] Yeah. Yeah. The. This says the case was scheduled for trial in July, but Utah state prosecutors requested a continuance. According to the Washington County Attorney's office, the court denied the request and instead dismissed the case without prejudice. Meaning the state can refile the case, the attorney's office said in a statement. And the state has said they will.

John

Dehlin [01:48:00]

Okay.

Meggan

Hayes [01:48:01] Yeah, so just a quick update on that there, you know, when it comes out again. Well, we can talk about it more when there's more.

Mormon Sign Theft in

Fairview

Texas

John

Dehlin [01:48:07] All right.

Meggan

Hayes [01:48:09] Oh, and this is Fairview, Texas, because we just can't not talk about Fairview, Texas. The church won't leave. They, you know, are out here in Texas, so the church won't leave them alone.

John

Dehlin [01:48:19]

Okay.

Meggan

Hayes [01:48:20] So they, the town, because the church won't lower the spire on the temple, has decided they're going to do this sign campaign with the money that they raised for their legal defense fund against the church. And they put up all of these signs and within 24 hours, someone had taken them all down. So if you go to the next clip, it's Rebecca Biblioteca. Shout out to her talking about what happened.

John

Dehlin [01:48:42] Okay. Is it gonna say? Because for those listening, the sign says LDS Church, please be a good neighbor. 120ft. Doesn't fit Fairview. Learn more at FairviewSpeaks.com Fairview, Texas Community Voice paid for by the town of Fairview with a little Q. What is it? A QID code? Is that what they're QR code?

Meggan

Hayes [01:49:03] A QR code. I don't know if that QR code will actually work because I had to take that picture from this to make that.

John

Dehlin [01:49:11] Let's play Rebecca's clip.

Guest [01:49:14] The mystery of who stole those Fairview signs that the town not residents.

Meggan

Hayes [01:49:21] Let me make this clear.

Guest [01:49:22] These are not like people residents. This is the town put up yesterday on a median has been solved, little backstory. And the town has started an initiative to ask the LDS Church to be a good neighbor out of the goodness of their hearts. Please just lower that steeple. An additional, you know, maybe 20, maybe a little bit more feet. Let's just get that down so that it meets code. And they put up signs legally where they could. Last night the signs were stolen. A police or two nights ago the signs were stolen. A police report was filed and yesterday they were able to determine from security footage that it was two teenagers that stole these signs. We'll figure out who they are. Obviously the police are on it and they're looking for them. So that's what happened. New signs are up, but another complaint has been lodged. So I believe they're going to move the signs to another area. It just gets more complex.

John

Dehlin [01:50:14] What's your bet that they're Mormon teenagers? Meggan?

Meggan

Hayes [01:50:17] I know I was like, priest activity.

John

Dehlin [01:50:20] What's that?

Meggan

Hayes [01:50:20] I was like, priest activity.

John

Dehlin [01:50:23] Oh, right, right, right.

Meggan

Hayes [01:50:25] That was seriously my first thought. But, yeah, I can picture if I go back into my Mormon brain being like, you know, God would want me to take these signs down.

John

Dehlin [01:50:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like danite's council of 50, you know, lying for the Lord kind of. Because. Because, I mean, it's. Is it illegal? It's illegal, right?

Meggan

Hayes [01:50:45] Oh, to take them. It's stealing. I mean, I would think it's stealing because they. The signs were approved and they put them up in an approved stuff spot. So it's taking someone else's property.

John

Dehlin [01:50:54] Like someday the church is going to take at least some of its money and just get good PR advice, good, good marketing people, good mental health professionals, and just like, clean up all the stupidity that members or leaders of the church do to harm itself. Because that's just dumb.

Meggan

Hayes [01:51:15] Yeah. Flat out unnecessary. Totally unnecessary.

John

Dehlin [01:51:20] Yeah. Yeah. Well. Wow. It's. We're almost at three and a half hours. I'm sorry, Meggan. It's probably my fault, all my rants, so.

Meggan

Hayes [01:51:28] No, it's okay. There was. It seemed like a slow news week until yesterday and then it was like, we don't have enough time for all of this news.

John

Dehlin [01:51:36] Yeah. Well, you did a great job, so thank you as always. Michelle, your bell. That's a Beatles reference. 17 writes thank you for this channel and content As a nevermo, it has helped me with family members deconstructing their own faith journey. Keep it up. Thank you, Michelle, your bell 17 for the super chat and for the kind words. I also want to share one other super chat. I love you deeply. Says thank you to John for having Meggan on Ms. My small vote is for this to be a regular Friday segment. So thank you for that as well. And I think at least one other person wrote that. Oh, yeah, it was SB3212 says you two are a good team. What do you think, Meggan?

Meggan on

Generally

Unquotable

Meggan

Hayes [01:52:28] Yeah, I get so nervous leading up to this, but then when we're talking it, I look forward to it. At the same time, it's really. It's fun. It's very informative. I love the feedback from everybody. I learn a lot doing this. I love it.

John

Dehlin [01:52:41] Yeah. Well, you do great work, and I do think we're a great team. And I'm grateful for your knowledge and your hard work and your professionalism. And I'm just happy and honored to do this with you for as long as we're able to do it.

Meggan

Hayes [01:52:56] Yeah, absolutely. Same, same. Yeah. And I'll be here as often as I can. I mean, people do realize it's summer and I have six children, so things get busy, but I love being here.

John

Dehlin [01:53:07] All right, well, thanks. Thanks, Meggan. And again, everyone, please check out Generally unquotable. It's on TikTok. It's on Instagram. It's on YouTube. It's on Facebook. Right, Facebook, Yep. And support Meggan and the great work that she does. And also we. I love that we're paying Meggan for her work here. And so thank you to everyone who donates to Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories foundation to make us able to pay Meggan, but also because we lose donors every month. If you want to see us continue this news program, just go to mormonstories.org donate and you can become a monthly donor. And, you know, as long as we have the financial support, we'll pay Meggan for her work. So. And also, if you want to support our legal defense fund against the Mormon Church's lawsuit against us, you can go to MormonStories Dog Legal. We always appreciate that support as well. Please like and subscribe. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com yeah, and we love your comments on YouTube and any ideas or suggestions or feedback, Any final words.

Meggan

Hayes [01:54:13] Meggan, you know, I'll say be good to each other, be kind to each other, be bridge builders, be peacemakers.

John

Dehlin [01:54:21] All right, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories, Generally unquotable and the

Mormon

News.

Guest [01:54:28] Yep. See ya.

Guest 2 [01:54:29] All right.

John

Dehlin [01:54:30] Thanks, Meggan. Thanks, everybody. Thanks to Julie and Brooklyn and Trevor for all that they do to make all this possible. Trevor, thanks for moderating. And by the way, Monday's going to be a big news day, everybody. So stay tuned on Monday for some more news. All right, take care, everybody. See you all again soon. Bye. Bye. Thanks again, Meggan. Take care.

Meggan

Hayes [01:54:52] See ya.

Download mp3

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show notes

Generally Unquotable – Patreon

Generally Unquotable – TikTok

Generally Unquotable – Instagram

Generally Unquotable – YouTube

Kyle S. McKay

The Paris Twins

Nelson on the name of the Church

Paris Twins Daily

Torn by Jeff Strong

Mormon Book Reviews

Brian David Mitchell

D&C 85:7

Denver Snuffer

Visions of Glory

Chad Daybell

Lori Vallow

Ruby Franke

Jodi Hildebrandt

Michelle Stone

Journal of Mormon Polygamy

Consent for Kids – YouTube

Oaks has said the church does not seek or give apologies

James E. Faust

Torn by Jeff Strong

Deseret News on Torn by Jeff Strong

Misrepresented Members: A Reaction to Jeff Strong’s Book “Torn”

Locus of control

The Borrowed Wisdom of “Torn”

Dan Vogel

Mormons Not Christian Says Pete Hegseth’s Department of War? – Mormon News 6.11.26 | Ep. 2159

Sheriff Sex Scandal, Stake Pres. Fraud, Church Stocks Lose Billions – Mormon News 5/29/26 | Ep. 2154

40% of Mormons Raised in the U.S. Have Left the Church – Mormon News 5.22.26 | Ep. 2151

An Evangelical Christian Encounters Mormonism – Steven Pynakker | Ep. 1570-1574

Alpine Utah Mormon Youth Rescue with Brad Wilcox | Ep. 1543

MSP – Rebecca Gooden [Coming soon!]

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