The Mormon News

Guest [00:00:02] Welcome to the groundbreaking news program that delves into the heart of Mormonism, Your weekly window into the unique intersections of news, history, and culture that resonate with the tapestry of Mormonism. So whether you're tuning in from the heart of Utah or joining us from around the world, your favorite news program starts now, where news meets insight and the stories of our faith unfold.

Bill Real [00:00:27] Welcome, everybody, to the Mormon Newscast. I'm Bill Real. I am grateful to be joined by our other three co hosts on this production. We've got Rebecca Biblioteca. Rebecca, how are you?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:00:39] Good. I'm great, thank you.

Guest 2 [00:00:41] Excellent.

Bill Real [00:00:41] Radio Free Mormon, how are you?

Radio Free Mormon [00:00:43] Good evening.

Bill Real [00:00:44] Excellent. And John De Lynn.

John De Lynn [00:00:46] Hey, Bill. Hey, guys. And gal.

Bill Real [00:00:48] Awesome. Yeah, awesome. Awesome. Glad to be with you.

Tonight's Episode of Radio Free Mormon

Guest 2 [00:00:52] Folks.

Bill Real [00:00:52] This will be another exciting opportunity to share with you the news going on kind of the Mormon Arena Utah, in the world at large. And we're going to cover several stories tonight. I know that there's been a lot in the, I guess blogger NaCl, the the Mormon kind of arena of podcasting and content creation, tiktoks and shorts. There's been a lot going on with folks who are on the conservative side sort of disturbed by the church's approach to the. Those who are transgender and to, you know, the homosexuality issue. And there are folks in the conservative side who see the church sort of shifting and it makes them really uncomfortable. And so we'll, we'll lead with that story, but we've got other stories tonight, too, and I wonder if I can just give maybe 30 seconds to each of you to share some of the things that folks can sort of expect to come out of tonight's program. Rebecca, let's start with you.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:01:53] Yeah. I am doing sort of three different articles that all have to do with the world of art. I got to dust off my art history degree for this one. So we're going to be talking about an address that Elder Bednar gave at a BYU devotional. We're going to be talking about a new way to perhaps imagine what Jesus Christ looks like. And also a beloved mural at BYU Hawaii that may be going away.

Radio Free Mormon [00:02:19] Yeah.

Bill Real [00:02:20] And Radio Free Mormon.

Radio Free Mormon [00:02:22] What I'm going to be talking about is the church handbook and what it does and does not say regarding its current policy and position on transsexual members.

Guest 3 [00:02:33] Yeah.

Bill Real [00:02:33] And there's a facet of the video we're going to play here in the beginning that I did that I think, John, you've been sort of thinking about as well. And I'm excited to kind of get your $0.02 on. But not only is there this issue with the conservative Latter Day Saints sort of being disturbed by the church's shifting, but there's kind of this debate about doctrine and what doctrines have changed and which ones haven't. That sort of gives the conservative member to go like, no, if something changes, it all gets scary and something's wrong. The brethren have to be off track. And I'm really excited to get your point of view there. But anything else from from your mind tonight in terms of thoughts you've got regarding tonight's show? Okay, then, let's jump in. Sweet. Let's jump into it. Then let's go to the very first video, and this will be a little bit longer than the ones I've done in the past. But folks, I hope that this sort of explains kind of what the big story is going on in Mormonism.

Jacob Hansen Explains Why He Consistently Follow the LDS Church

John De Lynn [00:03:24] All right, let's roll it.

Guest [00:03:28] Only a few years ago at the BYU Women's Conference, Jessica Lever Mendoza Haynes was introduced by First Counselor Sharon Eubank, and she shared her unique perspective on embracing diversity and and her personal identity

Bill Real [00:03:43] within the context of the LDS Church.

Guest [00:03:46] Haynes openly identifies as queer and views this aspect of herself as an eternal part of her identity. She emphasizes the importance of self acceptance in asserting that she is perfect just the way that she is. As the church youth leader, Haynes takes on the role of teaching inclusivity in love to the young women under her guidance, encouraging them to use preferred pronouns. In her social media post, she has expressed that her personal revelation about her queer identity takes precedence over certain aspects of the Family Proclamation, which she views as a document crafted by men, and she publicly promotes her views. In recent weeks, we have seen the LDS Church call Patrick Kieran as an apostle, a man who has the reputation of being more liberal and inclusive than how the top 15 are seen collectively. Also, the church hired as its top PR spokesman Aaron Sherinian, whose public allyship with those of the LGBT community is well known at this point. In addition, we are seeing instances where the top church leadership seems to be ignoring their own policies and doctrines in favor of acceptance inclusivity. One such example is recently where the First Presidency gave approval for a transgender woman to join the church, admitting her to baptism and onto the records of the church as a female, ignoring the very thing that has gotten members who transitioned excommunicated only a few short years ago.

Radio Free Mormon [00:05:28] You know, and I and I noticed some of the questions were what does your membership. I mean, as you just said, like

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:05:36] I even have it right here.

Radio Free Mormon [00:05:38] Like it says female on the Membership Tools app.

Guest 3 [00:05:44] Anybody didn't listen to the first podcast. This was not a one off with some missionaries that went rogue in Arizona and just baptized you on the sly. Lauren was pretty clear that she had a supportive mission president. This goes through the mission president, the new converts. Baptism goes through the mission president who needed to get first presidency approval. You were taught by sisters because you're a woman. You were on the church and you received first presidency approval for your baptism in a written communication to the mission president. The way that works and you were came on the records as the church as female going to release society. The restrictions are you cannot attend the temple and you're at peace with that. So if someone's wondering this was a rogue event by some whatever vocabulary we're going to use that's going to end badly. This is the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints with keys to authorize your baptism. And that is significant. And listeners, I recognize that if I understand the handbook correctly, if you go through a medical transition like Lauren has, that can put you sideways with church teachings. But you did that as before you joined the church. And so through the letter to the senior leaders of the church, I assume the first presidency or whoever at the church handles these things. You were given the green light and so some may feel there's inconsistencies there. We treat investigators that have fully transitioned different than we teach our own members who feel impressed to transition or fully transition.

Guest [00:07:31] This has led to a growing segment of members who claim to be confused, led by the content creators Jacob Hansen and Greg Matson. In a candid video, Hansen, a member of the LDS Church and producer of the podcast Thoughtful Faith, addresses what he perceives as significant disconnect between the teachings of the church's top leaders on gender and homosexuality and the real world experiences unfolding within the faith community. Hansen sheds light on his motivation and mindset, emphasizing that his concerns and stem from a genuine desire to reconcile apparent contradictions rather than engaging in activism against church leaders or experiencing a faith crisis as he struggles to catch up with what some, including me, see as real change happening in the church. In this video, Hansen grapples with the challenge of reconciling the doctrinal positions of the LDS Church as taught by top leaders with the seeming tacit approval of top leadership that leads to the lived experience running contradictory to those doctrinal teachings, specifically in regards to homosexuality and support for transgender individuals. He articulates that his motivation is the need for open dialogue, inconsistency seeking understanding and coherence within the teachings and actions of the church. And he addresses those accusations of activism or wavering faith. Hansen assures us that such assumptions are premature, that he is neither trying to create a new wave of people antagonized towards the church leaders, nor is he losing faith, being conflicted. As he sees an apparent shift in the church away from its conservative approach to these issues.

Guest 4 [00:09:32] It's that things happen that seem to contradict what's being said in General Conference, right? And the official teachings of the church. And so some people have kind of characterized, well, oh, is Jacob engaging in activism against the church? Or, oh, he's like, he's, he's totally conflicted and he's losing faith in the church and the brethren. And he's all confused. And it's like, you guys know I'm not.

Guest [00:09:52] Hansen then takes a moment to clarify his true motivation behind addressing the apparent discrepancies of within the LDS Church. Contrary to accusations of activism or a faith crisis, Hansen seeks to convey a deeper concern rooted in the confusion, contention, and division he perceives among members. Opening up about the complexities he and fellow members face, Hansen articulates the challenge of navigating what he sees as inconsistencies in applying church doctrine and and gospel principles. His primary aim is to initiate a dialogue within the LDS church to provide clarity, allowing members to experience greater stability in their faith journeys. Hansen emphasizes that his intention is not to undermine the teachings of the church or cast doubt on its leaders, but rather to seek a harmonious alignment between doctrine in practice. He passionately expresses a desire for the church to offer clearer guidance, recognizing that this would not only alleviate confusion, but also reduce contention among members who grapple with the differing interpretations of the teachings and actions of the church. Hansen seems to be pointing to the significance of unity within the body of Christ. He contends that resolving the existing confusion is crucial for achieving unity in reducing contention and division. Regardless of the outcome, whether the teachings prove true or the actions indicate a shift towards truth, Hansen's core motivation is to end the confusion, to lessen contention, and to foster unity among the saints.

Guest 4 [00:11:39] What I'm seeing is that are we as members of the church contradicting what the brethren are doing? And are things being done, even at the official level, that seem to contradict things that are said? And so there's a lack of clarity. And that lack of clear clarity creates confusion, and confusion breeds contention and division.

Guest [00:12:05] But Hansen unveils a surprising revelation that adds a new layer to his narrative. Despite his earlier emphasis on seeking clarity and unity within the LDS Church. Hansen candidly admits that if the church is indeed undergoing significant changes, especially in the core doctrines around homosexuality and someone being transgender, he may no longer see himself as a member. Hence, if change is actually happening, he is in fact having a faith crisis. Contrary to his previous assertions of wanting to end confusion and division for the sake of unity, Hansen acknowledges the potential for a fundamental misalignment between his personal convictions in the potential evolving direction of the Church. He grapples with the notion that should the church deviate from what he considers the core doctrines of that are central to his belief, that remaining a member may be untenable for him. This revelation introduces a profound tension within Hansen's journey, challenging the narrative of purely seeking unity, and that he is in fact not having a faith crisis given in.

Guest 4 [00:13:25] In general conference in word.

Radio Free Mormon [00:13:28] Right.

Guest 4 [00:13:28] But there are institutional things that are happening underneath that, that, you know, BYU professors or, or books at Deseret book that don't seem to align with that, and that there are people who, because of maybe some of the mixed messaging, are then going out and saying, hey, this is what's going to happen. It's all going to change. Right? You know, the church is eventually going to get there. It's just a matter of waiting for these old guys to die off, you know, and then. And then there'll be a whole new church. And, and now if they're right and I'm wrong, I totally see where they're coming from, okay? And I won't be a member of this church at some point because it obviously is not something that will stick to certain core doctrines.

Guest [00:14:14] In examining Jacob Hansen's concerns about the LDS Church's alleged deviation from core doctrines, it becomes evident that his focus centers on specific issues, particularly those related to the Church's stance on homosexuality and transgender individuals. However, it is essential to acknowledge that the Church has undergone significant doctrinal shifts throughout its history and that core doctrines have changed repeatedly over its 200 years. And the concerns raised may reflect a selective perspective. A critical examination reveals a multitude of core doctrines that have undergone substantial transformations, as well as other doctrines that maybe would be perceived as less core. But examples include free agency being redefined and labeled moral agency, plural marriage as celestial marriage shifting to monogamous temple marriages as celestial marriage, the end of polygamy after ensuring the saints that it could never end, that you can no longer get a planet when you were once assured that that was the very purpose of exaltation, that oral sex was bad and then it wasn't that the restoration was near complete and that now we are only in the beginning of an ongoing restoration that birth control was contrary to the teachings of the church and and today couples are free to decide for themselves without the negative stigma that masturbation causes a person to be gay and that today the teaching has disappeared that interracial marriage was sin and now such has been disavowed that people of color were less valiant and cursed, but such has been disavowed as well that Jesus and God were polygamists but such teaching is no longer taught that Adam was God and now he isn't that Joseph Smith's Bible translation was a restoring of the Bible to its original form, but today is simply a flawed Bible commentary that temple ordinances couldn't be altered until they were that garments had supernatural protective powers until they didn't. That Joseph Smith understood the Adamic language and Jacob Hansen himself admits that Joseph Smith actually couldn't read Adamic language. He didn't know it. That Kimora was in New York is another example. And now we don't know that God gave the November 2015 policy and then three and a half years later took it back. In concluding, it's important to note that the LDS Church has navigated a complex history of reversals and abandonment of lots of past doctrines, many of them core, challenging believers to adapt to changing perspectives all the time. The key takeaway is that every teaching, policy and doctrine has evolved in one way or another, challenging the notion that changing doctrines, even core ones, is inherently problematic. Perhaps in grappling with these particular changes, conservative believers might consider that maybe for you, it has never been about whether leaders were wrong over and over in the past, or whether doctrine changes as it does all the time, but rather maybe a reluctance to acknowledge that it's the doctrines that are important to you that are changing. That to change with the church would require you to acknowledge that a part of you was wrong about how it defined another human being in ways that made them less than or not acceptable.

Mic Drop: The Story Behind Same-Sex Marriage

Bill Real [00:18:08] Mic drop yeah, so I want to let's touch base on the main part of the story here first. So with the perceived mixed messaging that many are noticing, I think all of us on some level have been talking about this or have covered it. What do you think is really happening behind the scenes? Any thoughts on whether you want to guess or whether you want to say, hey, there's no way to know? Let's start with you, Rebecca. Any thoughts on kind of the story that's going on in the background of all the Latter Day Saints being confused.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:18:36] If you mean the story from the top, I think I said last week or even the week before, since we've been touching on this a couple episodes, that I wasn't exactly sure if church leadership understood the background of our, you know, new church spokesman. And I can only imagine that now that they could not possibly have foreseen what this would put into motion. Just all the complex issues, all the dialogues that are being had, all the podcasts that are coming out. I don't know if they exactly know what to do at this point. I try to put myself in their shoes and think how would I handle this? But. But I do know it's very interesting. I had the chance to podcast with Jacob Hansen and Greg Matson who had also put out a video about the confusion of perhaps the, the more orthodox right wing side of the church. And I keep saying this, there are two churches in my mind there's a more progressive church and a more right wing orthodox side. And with no direct direction from the top, they are both left very confused depending on what the situation is. And I thought it was interesting in my podcast on Steve Pinecrest Mormon Book Reviews with Greg and with Jacob, they both said something that was very similar to, I think what post Mormon sort of the situation they find themselves in. Steve asked them the question, if the church were to change its policy officially and finally say something from the top about same sex marriage, where would you stand? And Greg said, I would remain in the church, but I would try to make a change from within, which I thought was very familiar. A lot of, you know, people who are sort of gravitating away from Mormonism, that's what they ought to do to stay in to try to make a change. And then Jacob said that he would remain in the church, but he, he would no longer sustain. I think he said the prophet or the brethren, maybe just the prophet, which, which again is very interesting to me. So it's definitely making everyone on all sides face some harder questions, I think.

John Bird: I Think We're In the Middle of a Wave

Guest [00:20:27] John, do you, do you think we're

Bill Real [00:20:29] in the midst of some significant changes happening in the church on these issues?

John De Lynn [00:20:34] I do. I absolutely do. We referenced it previously, but just, just knowing that Charlie Bird and, and his husband Ryan are attending a ward in Utah county as same, a same sex married couple, that they're taking the sacrament, that they're in LDS tools, that they have been assigned callings and that the bishop and the stake president know and now I'm aware of at least Five to six other couples around the United States that are same sex married and are active in their wards taking the sacrament, fulfilling callings. I really do think we can say 2024 is a watershed year for the church, sort of crossing that precipice of not fully embracing its same sex married couples, but three quarters embracing its same sex married couples. I think the only thing the church has yet to do is, is allow temple recommends for same sex married couples and of course, amend the Mormon Temple ceremony to, to allow for same sex marriage in the temples. And that may be decades off, I don't know. But I think we're absolutely in the middle of a watershed moment for the Mormon Church. And I for one, celebrate it if for no other reason that they're, I don't know, a tenth of Mormon or LGBTQ, 15%, maybe 20. And so I want them to have as healthy and as positive of an experience as they can.

The Church's Transgender Controversy

Bill Real [00:22:09] Radio Free Mormon, your thoughts?

Radio Free Mormon [00:22:11] I guess there's two possibilities here, Bill. One is that the church knows what it's doing, and the other is that the church does not know what it's doing. Now, certainly the idea that the church doesn't know what it's doing is a distinct possibility, but it does not lend itself to a lot of examination. Right. It's just what it is. However, if the church does know what it's doing, then it's possible to see this as giving one message from the pulpit and then doing other things in other areas in the form of trial balloons to see how the membership will react. And based upon the reaction that I'm seeing, at least from Jacob Hansen and Greg Matson, by the way, their videos that they're doing on these issues are hugely watched. Greg Manson dropped a little video. It's like 20 some odd minutes this morning about some anecdote that somebody had posted about teaching transgenderism in primary, I think it was, that was dropped about this morning. It's got around. It's over 13,000 views. It's probably about 15,000 by now. So these voices. Voices are representing, I think, a lot of people in the church. And if the church is paying attention once again, if they know what they're doing and they're paying attention, then they're seeing what these trial balloons are doing to their rank and file membership. I don't know what the future holds. All I know is that the past is the predictor to the future. And the past has showed me that the church will usually make the worst possible decision at any juncture. In fact, Their decisions are so bad, I couldn't even have conceived of such a bad decision. And then they make it. So I. I'm going to hold off on my bets on whether this is a trajectory that's going to continue or whether it's going to go off a cliff. Only time will tell, I think.

John on the Church's Discontinued LGBT Issues

Guest 3 [00:24:03] Yeah.

Bill Real [00:24:03] And I just wanted to get one more thought. You and I were talking on the phone earlier, rfm, and I think the two of you will appreciate this as well. But for the conservative member, they are perceiving sort of a contradiction from what is taught from the stand, what is

Guest [00:24:17] said in the handbook, what is said

Bill Real [00:24:19] at general conference by Elder Oaks and others, and then what the church is doing in the present moment. Moment and how it's operating. And I'm just curious if you guys think the church can just ignore that, or does it have to step forward and on some level, in some talk somewhere, sort of straighten out what it's doing and explain to the conservative members what this path is is. John, your thoughts?

John De Lynn [00:24:46] Yeah, that's. That's the part that's most difficult, is we know how the church does these things. The church. We know what the church doesn't do. It doesn't, like, all of a sudden one day realize it, it made a mistake and make a formal announcement over the pulpit and say, hey, everyone, we goofed. We got it wrong. We're making a change. And now we all taught and believed and practiced X, but now we're doing Y. We know that's not what the church does. What the church seems to do is they. They. They. I don't want to. This sounds indelicate, but they tend to speak out of both sides of their mouth. They speak one way in general conference and in the ensign and to the internal audience. They start speaking differently to the public. They start, you know, giving more friendly messages, in this case of LGBT people to the public.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:25:36] And.

John De Lynn [00:25:37] And then they allow these pockets within the church of progressive movement, and they just wait till enough of the membership dies and they stop teaching the hateful things that they know aren't going to be able to persist. And so they go quiet. They stop teaching. They let the culture be confused for years, if not decades, where people can believe almost anything and they're trying to arbitrate it themselves while they teach the members, you know, no contention. And then slowly, 10, 20, 30 years later, all of a sudden, no one remembers who Bruce Armaconki was. Nobody. Nobody has a copy of Miracle Forgiveness anymore. And the members can say, we never taught that we never believed that. We never practiced that, like the oral sex declaration that you referred to in your video. So that's the way the church seems to handle change.

Guest 3 [00:26:30] Yeah.

Bill Real [00:26:30] Rebecca, any thoughts from you?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:26:32] Yeah, I agree. And I also have to say, Bill, that list was amazing. I've wanted someone to make a list like that of things that they have gone back and forth on, and I think I need a copy of that. But I've. I've always said, like I just said, progressive on one side and the more orthodox conservative and no word from the top. And in the meantime, these two groups are in silos living their best life within the church. And there's everything from the top and from everywhere else that they can mitigate, make, fit into their paradigm. So they really do think that they're living what they consider the gospel, the doctrine. And the church works very hard at not saying anything that will alienate one side or the other. And I think we saw that in Covid. And I've said this before, that's a time when President Nelson took a stand on something, masks and vaccines that was very polarizing, more than I think we've seen anything else ever be. It was a time where I saw a TBM family member who, who follows the prophet to the letter say, well, that instruction was just his opinion. I couldn't believe it. I had never heard this person say anything like that before. But in this case, where it went against everything that she believed in, her nice little conservative silo in the church, she was not going to have that. That was just an opinion. And, and she did not have to follow that. That was up to personal revelation, she said, which is, you know, kind of the get out of jail free card. So, yeah, I think it is very interesting, but we've seen the church do this over and over. I would even point to Tim Ballard look in Vice magazine. All they needed to do is come out and say, calm down everybody. Yes, we made the statement never happened. It resulted in how many hours of podcasting as we all tried to figure it out. They're not going to tell us exactly what John described. They're just going to let it happen organically in the meantime, that's very harmful to individuals and families trying to sort out what has happened with the roulette situation was, which is what it leads to with no direct interpretation or instruction from the top.

Jacob Hansen Denies Being an Activist

Bill Real [00:28:29] And then I want to ask rfm, I want to ask you something else then. I taken way too long in this segment. I want to move on.

Guest [00:28:35] So to you, it seems as though

Bill Real [00:28:39] Greg and Jacob are claiming that if the church changes here, that that means something to them. Like, hey, we can't do that.

Radio Free Mormon [00:28:47] Right.

Bill Real [00:28:47] And yet the church has changed on so many things, as we just pointed out. What do you think's going on there? What do you, what is, what is it that's really bothering them? Because it doesn't seem like it's really that doctrines change. That doesn't seem to be the issue.

Radio Free Mormon [00:28:59] No, it's that this doctrine seems to be changing and they're very emotionally tied to this doctrine. They feel perhaps as much or more than any other doctrine, this represents the LDS Church and certainly the LDS Church in this generation, its top leaders have made statement after statement after statement. And I'm looking at you, President Oaks, especially about this doctrine. So, yeah, they have a very legitimate reason to be questioning, to be confused. The church is, I think, if not intentionally confusing people, they're knowingly confusing people. And I think that's just as bad. I think it's clear to everybody that the church is not practicing what it preaches at this point. That's the confusion. And I think that regardless of what Jacob may be saying about bringing the two together, he wants the church to practice what it preaches. He doesn't want the church to preach what it practices. Because if the church starts preaching what it practices and that's the unity that comes about, then he's going to be a dot on the horizon. I think that we can safely say that the one thing that the leaders of the church are not acting like is people who receive direct revelation from God.

Guest 5 [00:30:16] Yeah.

Bill Real [00:30:17] And I just want to note, and I pointed it out in the video, but I'll say it more clearly.

Guest [00:30:20] Jacob Hansen denies that he's losing faith

Bill Real [00:30:23] in the Brethren, but Self admits that if the critics are right that there

Guest [00:30:29] is a shift in place, then he

Bill Real [00:30:32] will be on the outside of the church because he will have lost faith in the brethren.

Guest 5 [00:30:37] Yeah.

John De Lynn [00:30:37] And Rebecca, I'm pretty sure that in your interview with Steven Pinegar on Mormon book reviews, Greg said that if the church allowed same sex marriage, he would not leave the church. Isn't that.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:30:50] That's what I said. He would stay in, but he would try to work from the inside.

John De Lynn [00:30:54] Oh, yeah, he did.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:30:56] Which I thought mirrored exactly what you hear Postmos say. Right. We're going to stay in, we're going to try or we're going to get out of Dodge.

Radio Free Mormon [00:31:03] So, yeah, work on the inside against the leadership of the church that he sustains his prophets.

John De Lynn [00:31:08] How is that not Activism in the church.

Radio Free Mormon [00:31:10] Oh, that's the other thing. And I'll get to that here in a second. But, Bill, Bill, when Jacob Hansen and I love you, Jacob, as much as you love John, but when you say you're not encouraged, you're not being an activist, okay? Doing your podcast with thousands and thousands of people watching and proclaiming your disgruntlement with the leadership of the church could reasonably be seen as a form of activism. But when you cross over the line and step firmly into activist territory is when you have more than once on more than one podcast, encourage the listeners of your podcast if they share your confusion. And apparently thousands of people do, looking at the numbers, that they should go to their priesthood leader and share with the priesthood leader their feelings of confusion and ask, what is up with this? And try and get an answer to it. That is the very definition of activism. And that's what you're doing, regardless of your claim to not being an activist.

Bill Maher on The Vietnam War

Bill Real [00:32:12] Yeah, John, it looks like there's a couple of clips here attached to this one.

Guest [00:32:16] Is.

Bill Real [00:32:16] Are there a couple things here that you wanted to go into?

John De Lynn [00:32:18] This is going to be my segment.

Bill Real [00:32:19] Love it. Let's turn time over to you, my friend.

John De Lynn [00:32:21] Okay, great. Well, Bill, that was amazing. It was not too long. It was not long enough. But I always love your. Your videos, Bill, and the discussion. So thanks for that. Yeah, so I just wanted to kind of trail on that. I want to give a shout out. So I think this is the second week in a row to Steven Piniger and in this case, Rebecca biblioteca and the YouTube channel. Mormon Book Reviews. It's plural, right? Rebecca?

Steven Piniger on Mormon Book Reviews

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:32:46] It is plural. He reviews many, many books.

John De Lynn [00:32:49] Yeah. So he was. Rebecca, I think, was scrappy enough to invite Jacob Hansen and Greg Matson onto a discussion with her and Steven Pinegar. And I really enjoyed that discussion.

Guest 5 [00:33:05] And.

John De Lynn [00:33:05] And I was really jealous that I didn't. I wasn't able to hold that discussion on Mormon Stories. Maybe someday, Jacob and Greg, I've invited them both to come on Mormon Stories. If we're able to agree to some ground rules, we'll see if that happens. But I love this discussion. I pulled out three clips from the discussion that really do start touching on some of the questions you were asking there towards the end, Bill. So what I'll do is I'll just play these three clips and we'll discuss between each. Each clip, if that. If that sounds right. All right, so let's go ahead and go to the first clip.

Jim and Greg on the Jim Bennett Podcast

Guest 5 [00:33:41] So, you know that episode, the Jim Bennett. And you still gets washed to this day, still get comments even today on, on the video. And it really showed this very, this, this divide in your tradition. Both you and Jim are, you could say, are Mormon apologists, defenders of the church, but yet the gap between you guys is substantial. And there was a lot of contention in that interview. Probably I say the most explosive podcast. Podcast in the Mormon world in the past year was the two of you. And I had TBMs going to me said, I've never seen anything like this before. And what it did, it kind of exposed this really, this underlying thing going on that there is this tension in the church that's happening amongst the people. And so, and, and this is, this is what happens when mixed signals are sent out. Right, Jacob?

Guest 4 [00:34:32] And I think that, like with Jim and I. And I do think that he and I represent kind of different. The, the divide in the church is very clearly, clearly there. And I want to resolve that, right? Like, I want. I don't want that division to be in the church. And I think that the more clarity that we get, the better. Now, I think that the clarity has been given in general conference in word. Right? But there are institutional things that are happening underneath that, that, you know, BYU professors or books at Deseret Book that don't seem to align with that, and that there are people who, because of maybe some of the mixed messaging, are. Are then going out and saying, hey, this is what's going to happen. It's all going to change. Right? You know, the church is eventually going to get there. It's just a matter of waiting for these old guys to die off, you know, and then. And then there'll be a whole new church. And now if they're right and I'm wrong, I totally see where they're coming from, okay? And I won't be a member of this church at some point because it obviously is not something that will stick to certain core doctrines. On the other hand, if they're wrong, which that's where I. All my confidence is in that, that they are wrong, this is not going to change. Think about how harmful that is. You're telling people to basically, as Greg has. Well put. They're placing their faith in change instead of placing their faith in Christ. And you're essentially misleading these people so that they. They think that something is going to happen that isn't. And that's not what we're supposed to do in the church. Like, it's just not.

Jacob Hansen: It's Wrong to Indiscriminately Represent

John De Lynn [00:36:18] So I wanted to first ask you all, what do you guys Think about this idea that Jacob's saying that it's wrong to mislead the membership. The progressives shouldn't mislead the membership to make them think that change is going to happen, to put their faith in change, as Jacob says, and that that's misleading because this stuff isn't going to change. My question is, how does Jacob know, given that big old laundry list that you just shared? Bill, of all the things that's changed, how is it not just as problematic, if not deceptive, for Jacob to say that that change will not happen? And it's almost as if he's shutting down the restoration. And one of the core themes of the restoration, which is continuing revelation. Rebecca, why don't, why don't you start?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:37:09] Yeah, that was a really interesting interview. And if you look at my face, you can see me in the interview just going. But no, I actually, I, I agree with Jacob and Greg in saying that at the top, by not saying anything, they are misleading both sides. Of course, the progressives may be wrong, hoping that it will change, but equally so the people that are more conservative can be wrong that it will never change. So either side, both sides are being harmed. And that's sort of the disservice here because like I said, we're both in a silo, both sides of the church, the progressive and the orthodox. And both of us can find evidences from the top and actions of leaders that lead us to believe that our point of view is accurate and our version of the future is what's going to happen. So everyone is being harmed by the complete lack of anything from the top. No instruction, no information.

John De Lynn [00:38:06] Yeah. Rfm.

Radio Free Mormon [00:38:10] Yeah. I will just say that my mom used to tell me that actions speak louder than words. I think everybody's heard that. I think everybody recognizes that's a truism. But what Jacob and company seem to be saying is that words speak louder than actions. I'm going to believe what they say. I'm going to ignore what they're doing. And I think that person probably has things pretty well 180 degrees reversed. I think that sooner or later what's going to happen is that change is going to come. Oh, yes, it will.

John De Lynn [00:38:42] Absolutely. Bill.

Bill Real [00:38:45] I don't get his beef. He has a problem with members of the church unknowingly misleading members if the church isn't going to change. But this is the same church that misled the government in 1890. It misled its members in 1890. It told everybody that polygamy was going to stay around it took a bunch of the Saints and commanded them to go to Canada and Mexico and various places in the US to keep the

Guest [00:39:09] principle of polygamy going, and then abandoned

Bill Real [00:39:12] those people a few decades later when they decided on their own. Like, you know what? On second thought, it ain't coming back.

Guest 5 [00:39:21] They.

Guest [00:39:22] The church has a pattern of misleading

Bill Real [00:39:25] us on at least a thousand occasions. If you gave me two weeks, I could come up with a thousand of them. Where the church has misled its membership, misled the public, misled the US Government,

Radio Free Mormon [00:39:36] and it misled the US Government as recently as the last few years.

Bill Real [00:39:39] Yeah. With the SEC scandal and the fine that it had to pay, which came from the very top of the LDS leadership hierarchy.

Radio Free Mormon [00:39:46] And that was part of misleading its membership. It misled the government in order to mislead the membership.

Guest [00:39:52] So if Jacob Hansen is going to

Bill Real [00:39:54] have a problem with members unknowingly misleading

Guest [00:39:59] Jacob, where the hell are you? With the church having misled on so

Bill Real [00:40:04] many occasions that they may not even be accountable?

John De Lynn [00:40:07] And it's not just that the priesthood and temple ban on black people was signed as doctrine. I believe on at least two occasions by the first presidency, those who practice polygamy. What's DNC132 called? The new and what Covenant? Rebecca, tell us.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:40:24] The New and what Everlasting.

John De Lynn [00:40:26] It's not the New and stop it when it gets inconvenient Covenant. It's the New and Everlasting Covenant. And of course, it wasn't Everlasting. Whoever thought the temple ceremony would be changed so significantly? So it's not like, you know, there's just a couple small examples to your point, Bill. History is replete with major changes and deceptions that I just. It just makes me wonder whether these guys know their history at all. And I, at least with Greg, he strikes me as very intelligent, very thoughtful, even kind and compassionate. So I just don't get their confusion. Let's go ahead and jump to the second clip now, again from Mormon book

Guest 4 [00:41:04] reviews, without crossing the lines, but I do believe that there is an activist class within the church who fully want to do everything they can to prepare the church for the great revelation that's coming that will never come. Okay.

Guest 5 [00:41:23] They.

Guest 4 [00:41:24] They are. And that activist class, any bit of wiggle room that the brethren give them, if you say, you know, you need to listen, learn, and love our, you know, LGBTQ brothers and sisters, you'll have someone like Richard Osler who will create an entire podcast based on that where he goes out and says to men that they are actually women. And so that. That is where you're going, obviously, too far. You have crossed over that line. So the. Again, I'm not. My video is not meant to be an attack on the Brethren. It's meant to merely show that there's a disconnect that exists between what the Brethren explicitly teach and what is our doctrine and what things that are happening in the church that seem to contradict that.

Jacob Hansen and Greg Matson on When Significant Change Happens in

John De Lynn [00:42:12] So my next question to Jacob is, how does Jacob think? And Greg, too. How do they think change happens in the church? Do they think literally that a prophet's walking down the sidewalk and all of a sudden God starts saying, hey, change that priesthood ban. Get rid of that, or, hey, get rid of polygamy? You know, let's start with you, rfm. How does. In your opinion. How does significant change happen in the church?

Radio Free Mormon [00:42:38] In my opinion, yeah.

John De Lynn [00:42:40] What is it that you think moves the needle to make a first presidency in the quorum of the 12 do a 180 on doctrines and principles?

Radio Free Mormon [00:42:49] Public embarrassment.

John De Lynn [00:42:51] Exactly.

Radio Free Mormon [00:42:52] By the way, I can't shake the feeling that if Jacob Hansen and Greg Matson had podcasts back in 1977, they would be telling everybody that the church is never going to lift the priesthood ban, because they have said that they won't. And we need to trust what they say.

Bill Real [00:43:12] It's a core doctrine.

Radio Free Mormon [00:43:14] And I don't want to hear any of this stuff about, oh, it was only temporary. Yeah, it was temporary until everybody, every other race received the priesthood, and then sometime in the resurrection and maybe on another planet, the blacks would get their chance at it. Yeah, that's not a real temporary kind of prophecy. So I just want to say that. I think that that's what they'd be saying in 1977, and then they're saying it now. So I just think that things are going to change. It may not be tomorrow, it may not be next year, but I think eventually they will be shown to be false prophets as well as the leaders of the church.

Bill and Rebecca on Change In The Church

John De Lynn [00:43:54] Bill, any thoughts on what changes the church?

Bill Real [00:43:56] Yeah, critics raise concerns. Members inside are swayed and start to raise a voice. The church does surveys and pilot programs, and then, as you pointed out, it obfuscates the issue for two decades, and then it tells you that nothing has changed. Meanwhile, the change has happened.

John De Lynn [00:44:13] Wait, did you do an episode about this? Bill, aren't you referencing a past episode you did?

Bill Real [00:44:18] In what regard?

John De Lynn [00:44:19] I just think. I think I remember you doing some episode about how change happens in the church.

Bill Real [00:44:24] Well, I. We did an episode where I We claim to have had a source inside the church that would give us all the things that we're going to change. And about, I don't know what it is, about a third of that list, I think maybe even more has come true. But actually it wasn't. There wasn't a source inside the church. Me and my boss sat around in a room and we said, hey, if we were to guess at what would change inside the church, what would that guess be? And we just laid out the list of, you know, 15 things we thought would happen. And I think maybe seven or eight of those have happened.

John De Lynn [00:44:56] Yeah. Rebecca, what are your thoughts on change, changing the church? That's beautiful, Bill.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:45:01] Well, first, I think Bill can see it around corners. I think he's the one that's a little more prophetic. But no, I agree with, everybody has said it's political pressure, it's money, it's culture. And when I first heard the phrase ongoing restoration, I knew that there was no end to the change. They can make whatever change, change they want in any area of the church because unlike when I was growing up, restoration was done. It was always referred to in the past tense. It was the restoration had happened and now it's ongoing. Anything can happen, anything can change under this very, very wide net of ongoing restoration.

John De Lynn [00:45:40] Yeah. And I just, I, I, it bothers me, his contempt for what he calls the activist class. And of course, Corbett, Elder Corbett has, has spoken out publicly against activism against the church. I just want to ask these guys, how do they think change happens? How do they think positive change happens if they think again that the prophet just picks up the bat phone and calls God? They're so naive and uninformed. I just, I resent the contentment. The contentment, Is that a word?

Radio Free Mormon [00:46:13] Contempt?

John De Lynn [00:46:15] Thank you, Arfim. I resent the contempt that Jacob seems to have for, quote, the activist class when really there's no other way for positive change to happen in the church except for like federal marshals seizing your assets and your property and putting your leaders in jail or quick or threatening your tax exempt status. Like it's tax exempt status imprisonment of your leaders or, or activists that, or the media that call attention to what you're doing. So I just wish he could see that because it's pretty obvious that's true. If you just read the historical record. Okay, final clip from, from these fellas thing.

Guest 2 [00:46:57] And, and you know, the church doesn't have the same, all the same objectives that conservatives have. It's just, they don't, they just don't they are, they are in a position of how do we strengthen the members and how do we grow and bring the gospel to the world. They have different objectives and a lot of times people tie directly conservatism with the church and I don't think you can do that. That's not the right thing to do. Now, is the church more conservative? Is the gospel more conservative? It is more conservative. Why is it more conservative? Because we believe in actual non moving truths. And typically if you're progressive, you're going to kind of say, hey, look, there's opening up here, we're going to open this up a little bit and there needs to be some of that. We need to be able to check things, we need to be able to look at things and critically think about things. And conservatism kind of says no, we're going to stick more with the status quo, which is usually what you want to do on core things, core doctrines. But you can't be stagnant either, right? Creation is a process, it's a growth thing. And, and so you do have to open certain things up, but you do have issues on the right more than, and I see this all the time. I have people falling away from the church that contact me and they have an issue with these decisions. But I would say, as Jacob said, you know, the mixed signals are not coming from the pulpit, right? Those, the mixing is not there. The mixing is from things that happen more on the corporate side or on the messaging side to the world as compared to what is given at the pulpit or found in the scriptures. And so for people that are worried about that and they're active, I always say, look, listen to what they say at the pulpit and read your scriptures. I mean, that is the message, that is the doctrine that you need to stick with. But expect to have more of these issues pop up. Because I think there, there are going to be more of these issues that pop up and there are people that are going to be a lot more progressive that are inside of the church and working in Salt Lake and there are going to be different decisions that are made. So you better prepare yourself because this is not, this is the tip of the iceberg, I think. And I think that gay marriage, for example, within the temple is kind of that big thing of are we going to move toward this? And so people that are activists toward that, they're kind of hoping for that and working toward that to some degree and talking about that. And those that are worried about it, not because they hate, but because they Feel that those core things are at risk, right.

Guest 4 [00:49:31] That.

Guest 2 [00:49:31] That, that they've built on a framework of truth are at risk. Are saying what's going on. You know, is this really. There's no real warning voice on this. There's no calling out of these things, and that's the. The strategy. And if that's what they think is right, then fine. But there's no real calling out of these. These new ideas and cultural changes that. That are happening currently.

Rfm on Prophecy and Doctrine

John De Lynn [00:49:58] So let me ask rfm, understand. He wants to reverse. What's that?

Radio Free Mormon [00:50:04] That was so much word salad. I felt like I was at the buffet at the Royal Fork.

John De Lynn [00:50:09] Oh, let me clarify. Let me, Let me distill it to one question for you. Rfm.

Radio Free Mormon [00:50:13] Okay.

John De Lynn [00:50:13] One of the things he wants to do is say there's a difference between what's set at the pulpit and what, like BYU professors and the corporate PR people and Deseret book. You know, he wants to draw that distinction. So my question to you, rfm, is. And then I got one for Bill and Rebecca. How safe is it to rely on what's over the pulpit as doctrine based on your understanding of Mormon Church history?

Radio Free Mormon [00:50:41] Well, I think that, once again, actions speak louder than words. Was it. Who was it? Was it Neville Chamberlain who came back from his meeting with Hitler with a piece of paper saying he secured peace?

John De Lynn [00:50:51] Peace in our time? Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:50:53] Right. This is exactly the same thing. I'm not saying these guys are Hitler. I'm not saying anybody's Hitler. Okay? I don't want. I'm not going there. I'm just saying that there are noted historic precedents for taking people at their word when actually you can see anybody with brains can see what they're doing and what they're going to do. And indeed, that's what happened. And when you take them at their words, what you do is you leave yourself open to their actions.

John De Lynn [00:51:22] Thank you, rfm. And for anyone on the panel, is it safe for a member to rely on things said at the pulpit in General Conference for that to be doctrine? I mean, it's an obvious question, but I just want someone to answer it.

General Conference

Bill Real [00:51:37] You should ask Ronald Pullman from 1984 what happened.

John De Lynn [00:51:40] Tell us that story.

Guest [00:51:41] When he gave a talk in 1984,

Bill Real [00:51:44] it was a beautiful talk that was loved by folks. But when the VCR tapes came out and they replayed General Conference, everybody went,

Guest [00:51:50] that's not the way I remember it.

Bill Real [00:51:52] And then come to find out, the church had him re record his conference talk. Nobody's in the building. They added Cough tracks and stuff to the background. So it would sound like the original, but he had to give the talk over again, but give it completely different. Boyd K. Packer's talk was edited. There's numerous things that we can quote from general authorities in the past around polygamy or the race ban. Anything that a dead prophet says can be at any given moment, trumped by a living prophet. Living prophets trump dead prophets, and that is the theology of Mormonism.

John De Lynn [00:52:27] It's dangerous to faith to think that doctrine is whatever. It's dangerous to Mormon faith to believe that whatever is said in General Conference is doctrine. And the best example of that is the journal Discourses that literally. Editors of Church curriculum are forbidden now in 2024 from using for church curriculum because the Journal of Discourse has been condemned as. As not a good source for church doctrine. And pretty much everything there comes from what was said over the pulpit. Rebecca, let's get you in on this.

Jacob and Greg on Non-Moveable Doctrine

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:53:01] Yeah, it was interesting in that interview because both of them kept saying core doctrines, hard line of doctrine, and they all seem to think that came from the pulpit. And I didn't have the chance to ask it because it was Steve's show, and I wasn't going to butt in, but I. I felt like saying, when has it not changed or has not been something different about it? So in their words, the scriptures are what you need to pay attention to. That's where the doctrine is. Well, the scriptures change all the time and are reinterpreted all the time. The words of the living prophet are. What they're trying to say are doctrine. And this is what the church says, too. Scriptures, words of the living prophets, as we just talked about, those, change constantly and are constantly disavowed. In fact, we were just told, like, classic cars and vintage comic books, you know, throw out those words when there's a new new prophet. Right. The other thing that I don't think people realize is considered part of doctrine, it's the handbook. The handbook changes constantly. I always tell people, take a look at this document. This is your doctrine right here. This is where they're telling you what's happening. And a lot of some of the things that both Jacob and Greg had problems with that have happened recently with the LGBTQ community, it's fully in the handbook that what happened was perfectly fine. If you're not aware of what's in the handbook, you are not aware of your doctrine, and. And you're not aware, then it can really change. It's electronic. You know, you can just type something in so, yeah, they both seem to cling to this, what I consider sort of an imaginary just set in stone doctrine, which there are so many different examples as you all have rehearsed. But that's not the case at all.

John De Lynn [00:54:36] Bill, you had a point to make.

Guest 2 [00:54:38] Yeah.

Bill Real [00:54:38] Just to add to what Rebecca just said, Greg said non movable truths.

John De Lynn [00:54:43] Yeah.

Bill Real [00:54:44] Greg and Jacob, I want you two to get together. I want you to make a list of what you think are the 10 most non movable truths in Mormonism.

Guest [00:54:53] And I guarantee we could prove that

Bill Real [00:54:56] half that list, at a minimum, has changed.

John De Lynn [00:54:59] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:55:01] This is why the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls. And we know what's going to happen. We know that Greg and Jacob have got to be praying every night that no 70, no general authority 70 says something that's consonant with the actions because then they're going to be in trouble. But we all know the game. We all know the dance, don't we? Then they'll say, oh, that's just a member of the 70. It's not an apostle. Then an apostle will say it. And they'll say, it's not an apostle, it's just an apostle. It's not the president of the church. Then the president of the church will say it, and then their response will be, he's just speaking as a man,

John De Lynn [00:55:35] or he didn't say thus saith the Lord. Right?

Radio Free Mormon [00:55:37] Yeah. There's ways around every prophetic utterance, no matter who says it, or if it

John De Lynn [00:55:42] was a prophet who said thus saith the Lord over the pulpit, then it's like, well, he's dead now. Follow the modern prophet. Yeah. What it comes down to is how do you know what to follow? It's whatever the current prophet is saying at the exact moment, that's all you can follow. The other final thing I'll just say is that they want to sort of like carve off BYU and the Deseret Book and. And, you know, corporate messaging, as they

Guest [00:56:07] call it, that rogue Sherry Dew.

John De Lynn [00:56:09] Yeah. But all of these departments, whether it's byu, Deseret Book, Correlation, the church media, they're all supervised by prophets, by members of the first presidency of the quorum of the 12. There's a correlation committee that literally is in charge of correlating all this stuff, and that's supervised by a prophet or an apostle. And so at some point, this focus on corporate, you know, pr, you know, Deseret Book, BYU professor stuff, it's just. It's. They're just avoiding the. The responsibility. And that's all I got. That's all I got for today. Thanks. You guys were great in that panel.

Bill Real [00:56:46] I appreciate very much, John, what you brought to the table there. Radio Free Mormon. I'd like to turn some time over to you. You've got a little more on this story of the transgender woman and her joining the church and some of the. Your thoughts on kind of what goes on in the background with the church, including the handbook.

The Handbook of the Latter Day Saint Church

Radio Free Mormon [00:57:02] Right. So if we got some slides here, I'm going to skip through the first few. That was an article I was going to talk about. It's not really very important in context of what we're talking about tonight. It's about why can't Latter Day Saint girls pass the sacrament. It's an old saw that keeps getting repeated and probably rightfully so. It's good to keep it on the front burner.

John De Lynn [00:57:21] I think you could advance your own slides now. Go ahead and try.

Radio Free Mormon [00:57:23] Are you kidding me?

Guest 2 [00:57:24] Yeah,

John De Lynn [00:57:28] there you go.

Radio Free Mormon [00:57:28] There's that from. I'm just skipping through this. Okay, now here's the thing that. That led me to, and that's what I want to focus on tonight. The recent first presidency approval for baptism of a transsexual woman, which I didn't know about until I. I think it was Greg Madsen's show that I was watching, and he talked about it. So what I found was, is that on the church's website, they have an article. It would have been a pamphlet in my day. Right. But this is a pamphlet of sorts on the church website. It's called Transgender Understanding Yourself, and it puts Church Handbook 38. That's chapter 38 in layperson's terms. And chapter 38 deals with transgender issues. So here's how it looks on the church website. Transgender Understanding Yourself. There are a number of questions here, and you can click on any question and you can get the official church answer, which does. Is derived, of course, from the church handbook. So this is completely correlated material. I'm going to go through a few of these and talk about some of the answers that are given. What does transgender mean? Some people experience feelings of incongruence between their biological sex and their gender identity. As a result, some people may choose to identify themselves as. As transgender. So there they are, putting forward the church's position on what it is that causes transgender feelings. Second thing, does God love me? Yes, God loves you, just not as much as the other people in the church who aren't transgender. And it goes on with all these quotes about how God loves everybody. Okay, how does the Church define gender? This is where they put this. We. I think we all know this. Gender is an essential characteristic of Heavenly Father's plan of happiness. The intended meaning of gender in the family, a proclamation to the world is biological sex at birth. Now, this is only minorly interesting to me, because if the family proclamation to the world were considered to be scripture, the definition of gender is as used in that proclamation as the biological sex at birth would be considered a gloss on the text. It's not something that is in the text itself, and it's not obviously derived from the text. It is an interpretation that was put back upon the text at a later date, and I believe it was done by President Oaks. Okay, but we know that that's the church's position, that gender means biological sex at birth. What is the Church's position on transitioning? Church leaders counsel against elective medical or surgical intervention for the purpose of attempting to transition to the opposite gender of a person's birth sex. Sex reassignment leaders advise that taking these actions will be cause for church membership restrictions. Now, John, a number of years ago, I remember you had an interview with a lady who had been a. A transgender woman. She had been working for the church's architecture department.

The Transgender Issues in the Church Handbook

John De Lynn [01:00:35] Yes, this was Lori Lee hall and Laurie Lee hall designed, I don't know, 30 of the church's temples as the chief architect late in her career, assigned male at birth, transitioned to presenting as female. Yeah. And what was your question?

Radio Free Mormon [01:00:51] What happened to her?

John De Lynn [01:00:52] She was excommunicated. And she did not even have any surgeries, if I remember correctly. It was simply just a change in. In how she presented.

Guest 5 [01:01:02] Social.

John De Lynn [01:01:03] Social. Social presentation. Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:01:04] With the church, we call social transitioning. I don't know if that's a wider definition that's accepted, but that's what the church calls. Calls social trans transitioning, as opposed to surgical or medical. Right?

John De Lynn [01:01:17] That's right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:01:18] She was excommunicated. Now, if you look at the church's handbook now, and I'm trying to understand it, and I'm trying to understand the Church's position, which I think is the right thing to do. When we're reading from their handbook, it doesn't appear that membership is on the table anymore as far as getting excommunicated for any kind of transsexual or transgender, whether it's social or medical or even surgical. What it deals with is not having your membership revoked, but it has membership restrictions. There are certain things you can not do, and those generally have to do specifically with priesthood receiving and Going to the temple. Those are the things that are written in stone. Other things are going to be left to local leaders as they what? As they talk to a general authority, a 70. So if we can continue with those. Because I thought that's what happened, but I wanted to ask you that.

John De Lynn [01:02:13] Yeah, that's right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:02:14] So what is the church's position? And I think we already read that leaders advise that taking these actions will be caused for church membership, not with withdrawal, but restrictions. What is the church's position? Oh, I'm sorry, this is. Actually, I keep the title the same because this is rather a long answer and I wanted to put all these paragraphs under the same question. So this is the continuation of the answer to what is the church's position on transitioning? That's why it has the same title up there. Leaders also counsel against social transitioning. A social transition includes changing dress or grooming or changing a name or pronouns to present oneself as other than his or her birth sex. Leaders advise that those who socially transition will experience some church membership restrictions for the duration of this transition, which I take to mean as long as they're wearing clothes that are different from the gender of their birth. Right. Okay. So they will have. Even socially transitioning people will have church membership restrictions going on. Restrictions include. Now we get to the restrictions of what they are. Restrictions include, but are not limited to receiving or exercising the priesthood, receiving or using a temple recommend, and receiving some church callings. Although some privileges of church membership are restricted, other church participation is welcomed. They didn't actually put like paying tithing there, but it's kind of between the lines. So this sort of answers a question that I had had, which is I get the fact that if a person is joining the church, then we can talk about whether they can have priesthood or go to the temple. But what happens when a person has already received the priesthood, has already gone to the temple, has a temple recommend, and then transition? I think they actually answer that here because what they say is restrictions. Restrictions include receiving or exercising the priesthood, which contemplates a person who's already received the priesthood before they transition, and receiving or using a temple recommend, which contemplates a person who transitions after receiving a temple recommend. So apparently the priesthood is not going to be taken away. They just can't exercise it. And their temple blessings are not going to be taken away. They just can't go to the temple anymore. That's what I'm taking from that. The article goes on transgender individuals who do not pursue medical, surgical or Social transition. In other words, if you're just trans in your heart, but you don't do anything outwardly to manifest that or social transition to the opposite gender and are worthy, may receive, you get everything. Church callings, temple recommends and temple ordinances. So for trans people who don't show that outwardly you can have all the blessings that the church has to offer. It's sort of like a don't ask, don't tell kind of situation. It's sort of like I thought it used to be for gay or lesbian members of the church. Right. Don't ask, don't tell and you'll be fine. But now we're finding out like you just had this interview, John, on your channel where that's not the rule anymore. Because the exception proves the rule. And the exceptions are out there, by the way. Exception proving the rule. Right, the old expression, it doesn't mean that an exception proves the rule is true, because that would be nuts. An exception proves or tests the rule. It's the old use of the word proof. In other words, the exception tests whether this really is a rule. And a rule is a rule only if it is universally applied. So I think that rule is starting to be tested by these other individuals who are married as a gay couple, who are members of the church, who take the sacrament, who have callings in the church. Yeah, it's kind of confusing out there, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. So let's go on with this next part of the slide.

Transgender People and the Priesthood

The Church has been told to stop excommunicating same-sex

John De Lynn [01:06:19] Well, it's either confusing or the church has told its stake presidents and bishops through leader training to stop excommunicating same sex married couples, which my understanding is it has done that. And it, it has. It has been told to stop the witch hunts of hunting down same sex married couples and excommunicating them.

Radio Free Mormon [01:06:42] Well, that would make sense, but it'd be nice if they let you know, like Greg and Jacob know about it. Yeah, because it's confusing, right? Because it's all backroom deals.

John De Lynn [01:06:51] It'd be nice if there's a general conference address letting all the membership know.

Radio Free Mormon [01:06:55] Yeah, let us in on it, will you guys? Okay, quit doing everything in secret because we're getting confused out here and your faithful members are starting to leave the church. By the way, the one thing I did understand from what Greg Matson said, even though it was word salad, was at the beginning of that clip you played John, he has talked with and gotten calls from members who left the church because of this. They're already leaving the church because of this. All right, continue with the slide. Yeah, that's. That's where. As long as this is the don't ask, don't tell part. And the next part. Oh, that's right. I can do it. If a member decides to change his or her preferred name or pronouns. Remember, the leaders of the church advise against that. We heard that. Or read that earlier. They advise against it. But if a member does it anyway and goes against prophetic counsel, there will be repercussions. Or will there. It says the name preference may be noted in the preferred name field. On the membership record. The person may be addressed by the preferred name in the ward. Okay, I'm not sure what that's saying, but it sounds like they're saying churches, the church leaders are advising against it, but it's okay if it happens anyway. And maybe if I read this closer. It says if a member decides to change his or her preferred name or pronouns of address, the name preference. It doesn't say pronouns, but the name preference may be noted in the preferred name field. But if it's from a male to a female name, the pronouns would naturally follow. Right. So once again, even in the church's handbook of instructions, I'm seeing flip flops, because it used to be that if a church leader advises against something, that was the end of the discussion. It's not, oh, we advise against it, but you can do it anyway. What is the church's position on transitioning? Finally, the last part in it. This cracked me up. The church does not take a position on the causes of people identifying themselves as transgender. It'd be nice to have a prophet. You know, it'd be really good to have a prophet who had a. Like, a direct pipeline to God and could answer questions for us, but they don't take a position on it. But I thought that's really strange because at the very beginning of this, I thought they already did take a position on the cause of people identifying themselves as transgender. And below that, that line of asterisks. I copied and pasted what I had on previous slide. Some people. This is from the same brochure. Some people experience feelings of incongruence between their biological sex and their gender identity. As a result, some people may choose to identify themselves as transgender. So I think that they already said that they do take a position on the causes of people identifying themselves as transgender. That's why it struck me as strange that they said they don't take a position after they already had. Once again, this waffling. It is very, very Confusing. I've got to agree with you on that. Greg and Matt. Greg and Jacob. Excuse me now. Do I belong as a member of the church? Yes. It's almost desperate. They should have put an exclamation point there. Church members need you and want you. If you identify yourself as transgender, we know you face complex challenges. You and your family and friends are just as deserving of Christlike love as any of God's children and should be treated with sensitivity. Sensitivity, kindness, and compassion. But you're not in the priest. And stay the hell out of our temples.

What is the Church's Position on Transsexual People?

John De Lynn [01:10:29] Hold on. Hold on.

Radio Free Mormon [01:10:30] What?

Bill Real [01:10:31] These are the same guys who excommunicated just a few short years ago and did not extend any of that kind of love to any of the transgender members. Any people who entered a homosexual marriage, any. Anybody who had doubts or questions. I mean, these are the guys that hack you off at the knees without a smile, you know, and. And now that. No, no, you belong.

Guest [01:10:52] And we should all be nice and treat you good.

Bill Real [01:10:55] And yet nothing has changed.

Radio Free Mormon [01:10:57] No. And they end up in other places once again, obviously blaming the members for not being accepting or tolerant enough of transgender people. It's all the members fault, not the leader's fault.

Guest 5 [01:11:08] Always.

Radio Free Mormon [01:11:08] Can we go up there? I know there's so much to comment. Comment on. I'm almost done. I think, yes, you definitely belong as a member of the church if you're transgender. How can I participate in the church? All are welcome to attend sacrament meeting, attend other Sunday meetings, and social events of the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints. Some circumstances vary greatly from word to ward and from person to person. Bishops and stake presidents council with area presidencies. Now, I put the word must in parentheses there because I looked up the handbook, and it makes it very clear that that is a must when it comes to other things that are happening in wards other than priesthood and temple. Right. The other ramifications. Bishops and stake presidents have been given the burden of making those decisions with the caveat that they must counsel with their area presidencies before they make any decisions. Which makes me wonder, are the area presidencies, are they shooting from the hip, or is there another document that we don't know about that area presidencies have access to in order to answer the questions from bishops and stake presidents with uniformity. So, once again, it says some circumstances vary greatly from word to word and from person to person. Bishops and stake presidents must counsel with area presidencies to determine how to address individual situations sensitively, such as the use of restrooms and Attendance at various meetings and activities. Well, they just said all are welcome to attend sacrament meeting and other Sunday meetings, but now down here they're saying that there may be variations such as the use of restrooms and attendance at various meetings and activities. Yeah, they do seem to be speaking out of both sides of their mouth, don't they, John? Most. Oh, sorry, yeah.

John De Lynn [01:13:05] Can I just say that this, this is troubling because what's really going on here is there are parts of the church, let's just say southern Utah, northern Utah, Utah county, where if you allowed, you know, pronouns to be used if you were welcoming to a transgender person, gave them callings, treated them super well, you know, these people won't, won't even, you know, get, get. And I'm not saying vaccines are right or wrong, but even if the prophets saying get a vaccine, they won't get it. Even if, you know, even if they're told to wear masks, they won't wear them. And they're not going to be okay with the embracing and accepting and callings and sacrament for LGBTQ people. But then there's other places like Berkeley, California, like Cambridge, Massachusetts, like Brooklyn, like Manhattan in New York, where it's the opposite, where the members are so progressive that if you didn't provide love and support and accommodation LGBTQ people, there'd be a member riot. And so this text, what they're basically saying, the words they use is circumstances vary greatly from ward to ward. Bishops and stake presidents should council with their area presidencies. What they're doing is, is they're avoiding the hard decision of making a policy that's uniform to the entire church. And they're leaving the enforcement of these policies up to local leaders to avoid riots and to avoid mayhem. And I just find that to be particularly non courageous because it should be the same for everyone. There shouldn't be exceptions to the rule. It shouldn't be that if you're wealthy and you were once BYU's mascot and you've got friends in high places and the church is embarrassed about, you know, the potential ramifications of it becoming public after your Deseret book contract and your well known podcast, that you're in a same sex marriage, you're left alone, you know, but, but another person in another circumstance is going to be excommunicated on the spot. It shouldn't be that way. The church should step up, be courageous, make a uniform policy that applies to everyone, not fall back on local, local leaders. And situations may vary. And so, you know, check with your Local leaders. That's how I feel.

Radio Free Mormon [01:15:33] It doesn't exactly qualify for an entry in John F. Kennedy's profiles in leadership. Or is it profiles encourage whatever it is.

John De Lynn [01:15:40] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:15:40] This is not leadership.

John De Lynn [01:15:41] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:15:42] Why do we even call them leaders? They're not leaders. They don't lead. They lead from behind. And they use their stake presidents and bishops as cannon fodders for their lack of ability to make a decision. Anything more with the slides? Can I put them up there? Oh, yeah. After that. Most church participation and some priesthood ordinances are gender neutral. Examples include being baptized and confirmed, partaking of the sacrament and receiving priesthood blessings. Now they say gender neutral. I think what they really mean is anybody male or female, can receive these ordinances. Right. However, priesthood ordination, which is not gender neutral in the LDS Church and temple ordinances are administered according to birth sex. Okay. Oh, I keep forgetting. I can advance the slide. If I have already transitioned, am I welcome at church? All of Heavenly Father's children are welcome at church. Unless you've gotten a no contact order that prevents you from going on church property, I guess. How you doing, Mitza? Hope you're watching. If you have chosen to transition, you may still be eligible for baptism and are welcome at church meetings. All right, now they're going to divide transitioned before baptism into two categories. All right. If you have socially transitioned, you can be baptized. But if you've been medically or surgically transitioned, then you have to get special approval. By the way, back here it says, See Transgender individuals 38.623 in persons who identify as transgender. I thought I would do that. So now I've gone to that place in the handbook. This is no longer the article. So persons who identify as transgender. A transgender person may be baptized and confirmed if he or she is not pursuing elective medical or surgical intervention to attempt to transition to the opposite of his or her biological sex at birth. Sex free assignment. So what they're saying is if you are social transitioning only, you are eligible to be baptized into the church. But if you have surgically or medically transitioned, then you're on a different track.

LDS Church Handbook for Transgender Individuals, Part 4

John De Lynn [01:18:01] Or if you're in the process. If you're in the process of doing that. Right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:18:04] Okay. Thank you.

Guest 2 [01:18:05] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:18:06] Because it's not something that happens overnight. You're right.

John De Lynn [01:18:08] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:18:09] So the next slide is. Make sure I got this. Yeah. It says, mission presidents should counsel with the area presidency to address individual situations with sensitivity and Christ like love, something the LDS Church is known for. So it goes on. Now, persons who identify as transgender a Person who has completed sex reassignment through elective medical or surgical intervention must have First Presidency approval to be baptized. And that's what happened. That was. What was it David Osler was talking about with that. That person he had on the show. I think her name was Lauren Hian is how it was printed there. So, yeah, that is exactly what the handbook states, is that she wanted to be baptized. She had gone through apparently medical and or surgical transitionary procedures. And so they said, okay, she wants to be baptized. They petitioned to the First Presidency. The First Presidency signed off on a letter and says, go ahead and go for it. And she was baptized. Now, I think that she was baptized with the understanding that she could not have the priesthood. Of course, she's in a situation where her birth gender is male and she's transitioning to female. So she's transitioning out of the category that could have held the priesthood anyway. But she's also, regardless of the transition, she's signing off to saying, I'm never going to be able to go to the temple as long as I maintain this kind of position or transition. Okay. And the next thing, the mission president may request this approval if he has interviewed the person, found him or her to be otherwise worthy and can recommend baptism. That would be like everybody practically, you know, who gets baptized. The person will not be able to receive the priesthood, a temple recommend, or some church callings, which. It doesn't say which church callings, but it makes me wonder if that's on the. My hypothesized secret document that's held by the area presidencies. However, he or she can participate in the church in other ways. I think that I can imagine that one of those callings that Lauren would not be able to hold would be Relief Society president or perhaps young woman's president or in the presidencies. I don't know, but that would make sense looking at it from the church's point of view and knowing what, from what they have written, that there are some church callings that they won't be able to hold. Are God's promised blessings available to me? Yes. When you die. When you die and you're fixed, then you can have all the blessings. I'm sorry, I was actually interpreting that. That was my gloss on the text. Faithful members whose circumstances do not allow them to receive the blessings of eternal marriage like you trans people that we're talking about here, and parenthood in this life will receive all promised blessings in the eternities, provided they keep the covenants they have made with God. So you keep your baptismal covenants. You're not going to be able to get to the temple, you're not going to get the priesthood, you're not going to get to the. Get to receive the things that the church teaches are necessary for exaltation. But if you're faithful to your baptismal covenant covenant during the course of your life, then you'll be changed in a twinkling and you'll be able to receive those in the hereafter and all will be well.

Transgender People and the Mormon Handbook

Bill Real [01:21:40] It's better than those of us who get the smoothie there.

Guest [01:21:44] Is that a TK Smoothie?

John De Lynn [01:21:47] TK Smoothie.

Radio Free Mormon [01:21:50] And then it says Rebecca. So yeah, hey, let's go back there.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:21:53] My name, that's your name.

Radio Free Mormon [01:21:55] Why is your name in a church publication? That's what I want to know.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:21:58] I cannot imagine it must be that that's strengthening the church members committee.

Radio Free Mormon [01:22:02] So I was making a lot of comments as I went through there and I know John was throwing in from time to time. Rebecca, do you have anything that I think that was signaling me to go to you and ask for your comments?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:22:11] It was, it was a prompt. I inserted that slide. So no. I'm glad that you read about the variations in the handbook again. I am all about the handbook. You can spend a whole day reading through it. Because those variations again are sort of like roulette. You're right. What is the area presidency going to say? Is your bishop or stake president even going to check before they do something? I will give you an example of a friend of mine that I interviewed on Steven Pinecker show again, Mormon book reviews. We are just talking about you, Steve. Non stop. Anyway, her name is Catherine and she's a transgender woman. And she is a faithful, faithful Latter Day Saint to the point where President Oaks is her favorite apostle. And she fully sustains the brethren and she wants nothing more than just to attend church. So she goes through all the proper channels, all the proper leadership. And she has had so many mixed, mixed messages and mixed signals and things that have happened to her that it was one of the most painful interviews I have ever had to do to hear what, what Catherine has gone through. And she sort of felt called to go around to different wards in north Utah county, sorry, North Salt Lake county, and bear her testimony. She called it a transmission. Now she was not bearing a testimony of anything to do with anything that people might be uncomfortable about or something. She was simply bearing her testimony. She's an extremely faithful Latter Day Saint. And at the end she would Say, you know, thank you, everyone. I'm Catherine, and I'm a transgender woman. So she said she was met with so many different reactions. She would have bishops or bishops, wives and families come and embrace her in tears and say, it was beautiful. She would have people say in the foyer, I know who you are, and you're not coming in. She had a Bishop Rick, that locked arms, kind of crossed their arms in front of the door and would not let her into the chapel to bear her test. I mean, she had across the gamut these experiences, and she was always checking with leadership. She was always asking if she could do something. She was always going through proper channels, and she was constantly told something different from every person. It's no way to live. And whichever one of you said, why isn't there something from the top so that friends, family, people like Catherine know what to expect and what to do? Because she just, to me, keeps beating her head against a wall, trying to participate and sometimes being allowed to and sometimes not. And I thought in this interview, she made a really good point. She said somehow the more conservative members of the church feel that anybody who, you know, a transgender, anybody, lgbtq, they're the tares. Right? You've heard the parable of the wheat and the tares, right? They're the tares. They need to be uprooted. I mean, we can still care for them, but they shouldn't be participating fully. Well, she made the point that when you rip out the tears, which really scripturally is only the job of Jesus to do. Right. He's going to make that determination. When you rip out the tears, a lot of the wheat comes with it. And that's exactly what is happening now. The family, the friends, the people that support that quote, tear, and I use that extremely ironically, they're going to go, too. And so the longer the church doesn't make some kind of policy or say something, they're just going to have more and more people exiting because of the treatment of people. Can you imagine seeing someone come and try to bear their testimony and being barred at the door? That is going to have an effect on you.

Radio Free Mormon [01:25:31] But the church handbook says that they're welcome at church meetings. Of course.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:25:35] Exactly.

Radio Free Mormon [01:25:37] This is another thing, is that to the extent that Jacob and Greg were expressing surprise about First Presidency approval for a trans woman being baptized, it is in the handbook, and I just read it. And they followed the handbook, and the handbook is the Scriptures. It is the doctrine for the LDS Church.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:26:01] Yep.

Radio Free Mormon [01:26:02] So it's there. And maybe then if they Realize it's there. I don't know what they would do that with that. What do you think they would do with that, Bill, if they realized that it was actually there in the church Handbook that a trans person could be baptized with approval of the First Presidency?

Guest 3 [01:26:19] Yeah.

Bill Real [01:26:19] It seems as though their perspective is that the handbook and the talks at General Conference and the words of the prophets and official channels, the curriculum of the church, the correlated curriculum, those are all the places that are stating that we shouldn't do things the way that is causing confusion right now out there. But as you admit, the handbook looks like it was followed. It seems as though maybe Jacob and Greg haven't caught up with the shift from the old handbook to the new one. Which is just one more point to show them how Latter Day Saint teachings change all the time.

The Doctrine and Covenants handbook

Radio Free Mormon [01:26:56] And that is one thing I have to add. I don't know when that change or when those sections were added.

Bill Real [01:27:03] After Lori hall for sure. I'm sorry, After Lori hall for sure.

Radio Free Mormon [01:27:08] Yes.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:27:09] It's why you have to check it every day. I mean, I even copied this from it. It says in describing what is the handbook. This is from the handbook. It says doctrinal Foundation. These chapters in the handbook present doctrine. It says it presents the doctrine and principles fundamental to serving in the Church. So if you had any doubt, this is where the doctrine is in the handbook.

Radio Free Mormon [01:27:32] John, did you have anything else you wanted to add?

John De Lynn [01:27:34] No, this has been great. I really appreciate you taking the time to go through it. Rfm.

Radio Free Mormon [01:27:38] I'll give it back to you, Bill.

Bill Real [01:27:40] Awesome. Let's. Let's get away from this conversation, which I think is, you know, certainly necessary. But there's other news going on too. And we'll turn some time over to Rebecca to share some other things happening

A Taste of the World of Art

Guest [01:27:51] in the Mormon arena here and there.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:27:53] Yes, and I'm going to try to talk fast. I feel like I'm the lifestyle section. Right. So that like I said, every one of my streams stories today is going to be about the world of art. And I'm going to go through them very quickly. Ask anyone. I can talk faster than anyone on the planet. So this first article, David Bednar, Elder David Bednar gave a devotional to the BYU students beginning of the year and it was called this is from the Church News. No Spiritual Shortcuts in Righteous Works of God. Elder Bednar says. And you may wonder why I have put a picture of Elder Bednar and a robot. Well, we'll find out. The subtitle is Elder Bednar. Yeah, I. I Wasn't sure. I just put it into AI ironically.

No Spiritual Shortcuts in Righteous Works of God

Radio Free Mormon [01:28:34] See the one on the left?

John De Lynn [01:28:36] You're naughty.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:28:38] Interpretation. Anyway, the whole point of his devotional was that work is vital to our individual spiritual progress. However, the Church News decided to cover this one section of what he said. If you go to the next slide, which is very unusual. So he says if you go to the next slide, you can click it. I can't. I have no idea where it is. I'm never on Streamyard. Okay, you could. Thank you. I appreciate that so much. Okay, next slide. Thank you.

John De Lynn [01:29:03] Well, we're double. Go ahead, Bill. I'm done.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:29:06] There it is.

John De Lynn [01:29:07] Okay, there it is.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:29:08] It's all my fault because I never use Stream Yard. Now I've been outed to the entire world. I'm so sorry. All right. So in the Church News, it says of his devotional address, in performing the righteous works of God, there is no spiritual shortcuts or quick fixes, says Elder David Bednar, who called for wisdom in using contemporary technological tools like artificial intelligence. AI innovations such as artificial intelligence have the potential to both, number one, assist you in receiving magnificent blessings, and more problematically, number two, diminish and suffocate your moral agency, said the member of the quorum of the Twelve Apostles on Tuesday, January 23rd during a devotional BYU please do not allow the supposed accuracy, speed and ease of modern technologies to entice you to avoid or circumvent the righteous work that invites into your life the blessings you will need, he said. So he basically came out against AI, which is really interesting. The only thing I could think is that perhaps it is going to stop people from preparing their lessons. You know how you have to stay home Saturday night and dig deep into the scriptures and all of the resources. Maybe now with ChatGPT you don't have to. So I went back out online to see if there was any other article about what is the church's stance on AI. I found an article in LDS Living. I think it is if we go to the next slide. Yeah, and at first I thought this was, you know, how interesting this is a real article. It says the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is asking its members to refrain from using artificial intelligence technology when writing their sacrament talks in a letter released to local leaders Saturday morning. The letter comes following an increase in the popularity of breakthrough AI technology. Technology. This new cutting edge technology is very powerful, but like all technology, should be used with great care. Brother Chuck Babbage okay, right there I started thinking what kind of article is this Director of Church Meeting Procedures wrote Effective immediately, we are inviting members to refrain from using this new technology to write sacrament talks, conduct fireside seminary lessons, and even General Conference talks. It is counterproductive to the personal growth of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In the release, the church director specifically mentioned Chat GPT as well as Bard and Bing. We believe this new technology can be beneficial in certain areas, but it can inhibit spiritual growth if relied upon for certain church activities, the letter released from the church read. It is our hope that members will develop their own spiritual growth by diving into scriptures, studying General Conference talks, and receiving revelation from the Holy Ghost. To prepare this for sacred church meetings, the Church concluded by saying that all artificial intelligence websites will be blocked at Church Meeting House. Wi Fi and Chat GPT was used to assist in writing this article. This came out on April 1st. This was a joke last April. However, flash forward to January. It seems to me that the sentiments in the article are real. This is basically what Elder Bednar said. So April Fools to all of you. Another thing that I came across as I was reading and I wanted to make everybody aware of this is something called LDS Bot. So this is. Oh you know what? First I'll read this. This I found on social media. Everybody was talking about this takedown of AI. So somebody on ex Mormon Reddit said stupid is as stupid does. The Church's knee jerk reaction to any technological or scientific advances, distrust and fear mongering. If it can potentially harm the Church and it threatens to weaken their ability to control the narrative, then it's going to be of Satan. Then they will totally use AI to further their own purposes while still giving doom and gloom warnings to rank and file members to never trust in anything that comes from AI sources unless it's from authorized church AI sources. Which I thought was really really well said. And again I used AI to make that Elder Bednar so I won't go through the entire next two slides, but I did find come across something called chat or called LDS Bot and it's basically a chat GPT for the faithful. The creator of it, Josh Coates and his group was concerned I think that there are so many sources feeding into regular Chat GPT that you need something that's going to be a little more faithful. So from what I can tell they feed it full of faithful and approved sources and you can ask it questions to get friendly and faithful approved answers. Which I thought was really interesting. So we can skip ahead the next two slides since I just kind of Paraphrased the article, but there you go. So that might be something for everyone to check out. It's definitely has more of an apologist bent when I went on it to check it out. So I think. Back to art. Next slide. The main reason the church is concerned about AI is because of the absolutely damning pictures that we can create. These are a few that I either found on social media or made myself. We have Joseph and Fanny in the barn. We have marrying multiple women. We have marrying even more women there. I think that's President Nelson dressed up like Darth Vader. I don't know. What do you guys all think? Why the concern over AI Chat GPT? What are they trying to tell us or what are they afraid of?

The Church Warns Against Artificial Intelligence in Its Communications

The Concerns of the Church Over Artificial Intelligence

Radio Free Mormon [01:34:13] I think that upper left picture was from the article titled that Moment in the Barn She'll Never Forget.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:34:19] I love that one. Rfm, what do you think? Why are they so afraid of AI?

Radio Free Mormon [01:34:24] Why are they so afraid of AI? I'm not exactly sure, honestly. But I've got to tell you, I mean, I have my own concerns about artificial intelligence. And I do think that this is probably about the scene where the original Terminator movie started. Actually, it starts. Well, never mind. But you know what I mean?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:34:42] I do.

Radio Free Mormon [01:34:42] After they go back in time, 1984. I have got to say that I think, though, that when members quote from the leadership of the church, which is a common practice in their sacrament meeting talks, are they not even then, to some extent, using artificial intelligence?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:35:03] You went there?

Radio Free Mormon [01:35:04] I did. And perhaps this yields itself to another acronym. Instead of GI GO or GIGO or gigo, this is FIFO or fifo. Let's make it fifo because that's like FIFO fun, which is faithful in, faithful out.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:35:18] And that is what I sensed about the. The LDS bot, is that it definitely, like I said, I looked up a few things that might be kind of controversial, and it just expressed love, you know, like I looked up transgender, and it said, we love everyone. See the handbook, talk to your local leaders, you know, things like that. But it is interesting to go on. So it's. It's a faithful source.

Radio Free Mormon [01:35:37] Bill, how different is this? I'm not trying to take over from everybody, but how different is this from when I joined the church? And every person who went up there, with very few exceptions, to give a sacrament meeting talk came up there with their copy of Mormon Doctrine by Bruce or McConkey, opened it up to the heading of the subject they were given to speak on, and then just read it.

Bill Real [01:35:58] Yeah, I'll just note, I mean if we go back to 1997, Elder Holland expressed a hesitation with the Internet. In fact, his words were we are

Guest [01:36:08] not breathlessly smitten by the Internet.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:36:11] Yeah.

Bill Real [01:36:11] So I think when you have, when you're a church led by 15 old guys, I think the apprehension around up and cominging technology is always scary. Now again as you point out, RFM AI has real threats and fears that we all should be worried about as we have conversations about how to utilize it. But I think there's going to be a ton of Mormon that are going to completely ignore that council throw into Chat GPT to write a 10 minute sacrament talk and have by far a much better talk than anything that most Latter Day Saints put together for. For what they share on a Sunday.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:36:47] Yeah. 100. I had not heard that quote by President Holland about being smitten by the Internet. And I feel that the church sort of has been smitten by the Internet. If you use the word in a different way, hasn't it just John, any thoughts?

John De Lynn [01:36:58] Yeah, I'll just say I subscribe to chat GPT 4.0. I believe it is. You have to pay to get the most current version of Chat GPT and I've typed things in like, you know, make your best argument for whether or not the Book of Mormon is historical. You know, summarize for me the evidence regarding DNA in the Book of Mormon. How many wives did Joseph Smith have? And and it does a fantastic job of, you know, you could even say tell me the top, you know, 50, you know, biggest reasons that, that people list for the church not being true. And it'll list them and then it can say tell me more about number five, tell me more about number 20. And it'll just keep going and going and going. It'll even provide you with the sources. It's. I want to do an episode on Mormon stories where I literally just have. And you can even talk to it now. You can ask verbal question and it'll respond to you audibly with a really effective text to voice engine that sounds seamless. So I'm going to do a podcast where I just talk to ChatGPT4 and have a conversation but it's really deadly information to the church at your fingertips where you don't even have to buy a book, you don't have to even listen to six hour podcast episodes. You could just literally just, you know, have a, have a CES letter experience in 30 minutes and it can take you right out. So if I would I were the church, just for history and truth claims alone. I would be terrified at Chat GPT.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:38:32] Yeah, I feel like a missionary could come to your door and you could just say chatgpt. And you could just say, what's up at the Mormon Church. And you could. Oh, no, thank you. You would know right away. I feel. So. Yeah, it is really interesting. But I would also challenge you, John, to have an episode where you go on LDS spot and ask the same questions and see what it says.

Bill Real [01:38:52] So for the record, I just punched into Chat GPT to write me a 10 minute sacrament talk. I gave it a scripture. I gave it a very unhealthy scripture, Moroni 9:9, which is that, you know, when the. When the Lamanite women were sexually assaulted, they lost their virtue. And it just wrote me a complete talk. And it. At the end, I testify of the reality of Jesus Christ and his atonement. In his name I pray. Amen. But it had the whole. It's got the whole talk there.

Oh My Gosh!

Radio Free Mormon [01:39:17] So what do you do when robots are testifying of Jesus Christ?

Bill Real [01:39:21] Well, that happens every six months. What do you do?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:39:34] Oh my gosh. I almost feel we should end on that. Like, I can't even see anymore because I'm laughing so hard and my eyes are watering. So should we cut my last two stories and bump up them somewhere else for sake of time, everybody, what do we think?

Bill Real [01:39:45] Up to you.

John De Lynn [01:39:45] No, your. Your stuff's too good. We don't want to shortchange you.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:39:48] I'll just paraphrase it really quick because it is pretty interesting. So. All right, on to our next slide. So the next thing that I came across having to do with artwork is an article that says, that's not Jesus. LDS artists team up to challenge the image of white Jesus. And if you go to the next slide, this is the article. I'll just paraphrase. There's going to be an art exhibit at the Writ and Vision. This is in Provo. It's going to start on February 2nd. And the question is, why paint Jesus as a man with dark skin? Because odds are that's how he looked. Plus it's what he would do. So they definitely want to focus on depictions of Jesus chosen based on their emphasis on cultural expression and historical accuracy is what they say on their website. So if we go to the next slide, which I think is. Yeah, this was on social media, on Twitter. I don't know. Did we figure out if we could play it?

LDS Artists Team Up to Challenge The Image of White Jesus

John De Lynn [01:40:38] Yeah, let me. Let me just talk for 10 seconds.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:40:42] Yeah, that's fine. So just the whole concept of the idea of what does Jesus look like? What is Jesus to you now? I had a family member back a couple years ago when they were doing recreations of what Jesus might have actually looked like, you know, trying to dispel this white Viking Jesus that we have. And so you probably saw this, it was in Time magazine. They came up with this, you know, dark skin, dark hair, very accurate, I would think, to what Jesus probably looks like. I took it to this much older family member and I showed it to them. And they covered their eyes and they said, that's not my Jesus. That's not my Jesus. Because it's not their Jesus. You know, it's not the one they grew up. It's not the one that when they pray, they're thinking of. So I guess you could say, like the song, it's my personal Jesus. But I thought this was interesting. If you go to the beginning, this was a Harlem meeting house. Supposedly someone's taking a tour, looking through a room, and they come across in Harlem. Here is the picture, their depiction of Jesus right there. So again, like my aunt, my relative said, that's not my Jesus. And I guess there's nothing wrong with picturing Jesus in the image in which you're most comfortable. And of course, you could take that to the extreme. What some people might consider the extreme extreme, I don't know. Let me see. Do I have one more slide? Go to the next one. Oh, yeah. And then I started thinking about there's this weird thing going on in Mormonism with smiling Jesus. I don't know if you guys have noticed this, but he is absolutely hysterical. Look at some of these pictures. And I wonder if it has something to do with the chosen maybe trying to portray somebody as more accessible when in the past he's been more ethereal and now he's accessible. The other trend I see the picture in the middle is just super handsome romance novel Jesus. Right? These are the kind of pictures that are hanging in a lot of faithful households. So I don't know, what are you guys opinions about making Jesus more accessible, Making Jesus more what means something to you personally? And also, what's up with smiling Jesus?

Radio Free Mormon [01:42:41] RFM I think the laughing Jesuses are symbolic of the fact that Jesus is now watching Mormonism live.

John De Lynn [01:42:51] He's. He's listening to your Shakespeare stuff.

Radio Free Mormon [01:42:54] Why would he be laughing at that?

John De Lynn [01:42:56] Because it's so brilliant. It makes you happy at your existence.

Radio Free Mormon [01:43:00] Let's brush up your Shakespeare. But anyway, no. And we have to remember that the very first time laughing Jesus was done, which has been some decades ago, it was considered blasphemous.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:43:14] Yep.

Radio Free Mormon [01:43:14] By many people. But now that blasphemy is becoming more mainstream.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:43:20] Exactly.

Radio Free Mormon [01:43:21] So it's not so blasphemous anymore. And we think about it Jesus as smiling. Jesus is laughing is not being something that's blasphemous, but something that shows another aspect of the character which we attribute to him. Yeah. What did the first line of that article mean anyway? If Jesus painted a picture of himself, it would be as a dark skinned Jesus. Is that what it was saying?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:43:41] I wasn't sure. Once I read it, it didn't make much sense. But you're right. I think they just were making a joke. W. Not a joke, but an observation. WWJD because he's loving and inclusive, he would encourage anybody to imagine him in a way that would mean something to them personally and make them comfortable. I think that's how.

Radio Free Mormon [01:43:58] Yeah, maybe I'm not a mind reader when it comes to Jesus, but I will say that I think that people create God in their own image and I think there's a reason for that. And I think that it's largely, probably a positive thing. So they identify with their deity.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:44:17] Yeah. I think there's been times though, especially in the LDS church where you could not do that. I mean, I remember going to fifth Sunday meetings about 15 years ago where they said don't even use the word Jesus. Has to be very serious, very sacred, use Savior, Jesus Christ. I mean, talk about keeping somebody at arms length. You were really not encouraged to have this idea of smiling. Heaven forbids a smiling Jesus. But. But I think the trend is a little different now with something like the chosen, where you see Jesus as a common person and more accessible. What do you think, Bill?

Mormon Church Proposal to Have a Minority Jesus

Radio Free Mormon [01:44:47] I have to follow up before Bill or John speak because I think that as I think about it more. Yeah, positive things, but also negative things. When Jesus is your own ethnicity,

Guest 5 [01:44:58] I

Radio Free Mormon [01:44:58] mean, he's got to be some ethnicity.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:44:59] Yes.

Radio Free Mormon [01:45:00] If he's yours, there's positive, you know, relationship. But there's also the possibility, very real, of excluding others who take belong to the same ethnicity as Jesus who happens to belong to yours.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:45:10] Like Viking Jesus that we've had forever. Viking Jesus, Blonde, blue eyed Viking Jesus. Yes. Bill, do you.

Bill Real [01:45:17] Well, well, two things. One is that obviously we have no clue what the Savior looks like. We even have prophets in the restoration who disagree on the Savior's eye color. So we don't have a clear cut picture even when we're led by prophets who talk to him on a regular basis. But I, I think it's almost probably impossible to get to a point where on the average sacrament, you know, on the average chapel wall is a picture of a Jesus who's darker skinned with bristly hair. Which would almost certainly be the case because I think especially in Mormonism, we've barely got to the point where our artwork isn't all white people in the depiction. Like when the, when the Savior's coming out of the sky for the second coming, it's all white angels. Any LDS art piece that shows the pre earth life, it's all white people. Mormonism has barely gotten to the moment where it will allow Christ to be surrounded by multiple ethnicities of people. And so I think we are probably still 40, 50, 60 years away from making any kind of nudge on allowing an average picture to be a, a darker skinned Jesus.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:46:28] I agree. And think about it. There are only, is it 17 approved pieces of artwork that can go into any meeting house or church space. It's a very limited list. There are certain pictures that you can display. You can't display one of those smiling Jesuses. That is for sure.

Radio Free Mormon [01:46:42] What's going on in Harlem then?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:46:44] Well, and that's what I'm afraid of, that we possibly outed that meeting house. However, I will say that was on Twitter. I don't know if it's completely accurate, but it was all over social media, so. So I don't know what's going on in Harlem.

Bill Real [01:46:56] I would dare the brethren to remove that picture and see what happens at this point.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:47:00] I would love to see that. Absolutely. And it is ironic given that most of the many of the members of church, the majority are outside of the United States. And probably, yeah, it's a different scenario. John, any thoughts on smiling Jesus? Jesus of an ethnic origin?

John De Lynn [01:47:16] I mean, honestly, I'll just say kind of the obvious, the. Right. You know, the Pew Foundation's report on the rise of the nuns shows that in the United States people are just fleeing religion in mass. Not just Mormonism, but pretty much all mainstream Christian sects. And, and, and I think it's, it's largely due to the fact that with the Internet, with social media, with just popular media, with younger and younger generations, guilt and shame. Shame just those dogs don't hunt. And I think just younger and younger generations aren't buying the patriarchy. They're not buying the control, they're not buying the heavy handedness and the guilt and the shame. And so your Jesus needs to reflect your business model, really. And you need stern, suffering, angry, vengeful Jesus or God, if your doctrine is emphasizing those traits. But if you're getting. If you're, you know, getting nicer and kinder and friendlier and less guilt ridden, then you need a Jesus that reflects that. And I think that's what we're seeing.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:48:25] Yep, I think you're right. I like romance novel Jesus. I would maybe even hang that picture in my house, possibly.

John De Lynn [01:48:30] I don't know. Fabio. Yeah, Fabio, Jesus. I love it.

Oh No! They're repurposing a beloved mural at BYU

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:48:36] Okay, I'm just barely going to mention this next article because we are almost out of time. This is a story coming out of Hawaii. BYU Hawaii. If you can go to that very first slide, there is a beloved, beloved mural, apparently. Let's go to the next slide. I'll just show it quickly. And that has been in place forever. It depicts David O. McKay's arrival there. He's holding an American flag and he's greeted by many of the children of the island. This has been on, I think, the visitor center at the. At a building at BYU Hawaii forever. They are repurposing this mural. If you can go to the next slide very quickly, I won't read through it.

Guest 3 [01:49:12] I'll just.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:49:12] Just kind of let you know what's happening. They are just going to take sections of it. You can see outlined right there. They're going to take pieces of it and they're going to put it into a display. You can go to the next slide because they're demolishing the original building. And they are. Yes, they're going to destroy that building and they're going to put up this new building with this new representation of this beloved mural. And of course it has to do. It's kind of across generational lines. Older people are saying, no, this is our history, this is our heritage. This is David O. McKay. Younger people are saying, this absolutely represents white colonialism. So it's just kind of a difference of perspective. You know, we just talked about art representing who you are. Here's a situation where art represented who they were, perhaps. But now there's this question of who are they? Now I know there are petitions. This is apparently a beloved mural. You can go to my last slide there. And so they're just trying to find out what's going to happen. There's the visitor center, and on the left you can see they're just going to take the pieces of that mural and kind of put them together in a representational way. So it's a tough question. People feel really strongly about it. And again, it's generational, and it's. What does artwork mean to you? What does it represent? It represents different things when you view it from your perspective. So. Any quick thoughts? That's my last story. Rfm. Any thoughts on that?

Radio Free Mormon [01:50:41] I only wanted to ask about it. This is in Hawaii, right?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:50:45] Uhhuh. Yeah. This is at byu Hawaii. And the mural has. It's a mosaic, and it has been there forever. Like an institutional piece.

Radio Free Mormon [01:50:53] Okay, it's been there forever. But has it been there before Hawaii was a state?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:50:57] I don't.

Radio Free Mormon [01:50:58] That's what I wonder.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:50:59] That is a good question. It. It represents David Oay in 1922 when he arrived. So I do not.

Radio Free Mormon [01:51:04] Before it was a state, it was in the 50s, right?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:51:06] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:51:08] Territory, probably.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:51:09] Yeah. Maybe I had not.

Radio Free Mormon [01:51:11] Regardless.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:51:12] Why is that?

Radio Free Mormon [01:51:13] I mean, I see it a little bit differently if it's a US Territory. I'm not exactly sure why it was important for the church to make it so political. With a flag.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:51:23] With a flag, yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:51:24] Are you supposed. I don't know. I. I need to ask Cardon Ellis about the proper procedure with the United States flag and whether it's appropriate to salute it when it's not flying at full mast, when it's actually being in the process. So it looks like. Of being taken down or put up. It's probably being put up, is the idea. Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:51:40] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:51:41] So they're saluting it as it goes up.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:51:43] Yep. It's just more controversy with a byu. Right. This is apparently a pretty big deal. What do you think, Bill?

The Never-Changing Mosaic

Bill Real [01:51:51] I think things are always changing. You know, down here in Southern Utah, we had to deal with the conservatives who are an uproar over Dixie University changing. I think things are always changing. And I think when you just say like, nope, this mural has to be up until Christ comes back. And at the same time, I think we got to be really careful that we honor pieces of art that have deep meaning to our cultures, to a society. And so I can see kind of both sides of this story, and I don't really have a side to take. I can certainly feel for those who are hurt by the fact that this thing means something to them and it's being taken down and, you know, all things change.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:52:35] Yeah, I think that's a great takeaway. John, any last thoughts?

John De Lynn [01:52:37] No, just that I love you're bringing sort of the culture and art to this podcast. I will say, whenever they got or destroy a historic building or mural, it kind of makes me sad. I see why they do it. So much of our old artwork and our old doctrine and theology is cringy, is untenable, is racist, you know, is super problematic. Part of me is glad to see it go, and part of me wants to. Wants to see it stay there because it's our heritage. It's kind of like the Civil War monuments, right? Do we tear down the statue of Robert E. Lee or do we leave it up? I guess it depends on your perspective. I think there's good arguments on both sides.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:53:26] Yeah, I do, too. And the common denominator is just that everybody sees art through their own eyes. It's the eye of the beholder. I guess that applies to AI and to smiling Jesus, ethnic Jesus. This mural, you know, it means something for. To different people from different perspectives.

Radio Free Mormon [01:53:41] And I do think it puts it in a different category when it's actually part of the structure of the building. So I do see them as trying to, you know, cut the baby in half. We're not going to have it as part of the structure. We're changing the entire structure. We're going to make it much more glass than solid, but we're going to take pieces of it. We'll put it inside on the wall somewhere out of the way with some kind of notation that this is what it used to look like. So, yeah, you know, I think they're doing the best they can. The thing that concerns me is what's going to happen when Jacob and Greg

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:54:13] find out about this story, the never changing mosaic. Well, it does remind me of what they did to the murals in the Salt Lake Temple and the uproar in the art world about the murals in the Manti Temple, which they decided to save and then had a revelation to have a temple right next door and preserve the Manti Temple as more of a, you know, historical place.

Jacob Hansen and Greg Matson: Do They Represent a Large Minority

John De Lynn [01:54:32] So can I ask you all a quick question, circling back to Jacob and Greg? There's an argument that. Let's just say there's two arguments. One is that we're giving them way too much credit, way too much visibility, because they represent a really small percentage of the church and they're kind of fringe. And then another argument is, no, they actually represent a very large point of view in the church. And I know you talked about that a little bit at the beginning. How do you guys feel about that? Do you think that they represent a large enough of a critical mass of membership that they're worth our attention and spotlight?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:55:10] I say look at the comments. Look at that. Look at the number of comments on their programs on the interview I did with Steve Pinecker, it's one of his top, top episodes in just two days. 10,000 views. Yes, people are watching, people are interested and people do know who they are. And to relate to their point of view,

Bill Real [01:55:31] I think all you have to do is look at movements like the Snuffer movement, look at other things that have happened sort of within the LDS faith, the influence that Rock Waterman had years ago, and you sort of can

Guest [01:55:44] sense that the church is really stuck

Bill Real [01:55:46] between a rock and a hard place. They're having to cater to two sides of the spectrum. The people who are taking the history of the church seriously or the abuse of those in the margins. And then you've got those who are like, no, no, I need my Mormonism to stay just like it was. It can't change. And it's going to be interesting to watch the next decade. But I don't think it does us any good to ignore the segment on the right any more than it would do the church good to ignore the segment on the left. And by the shape of those. But the size of those bubbles they had a few years ago, John 1 one of those bubbles was you. But I was sort of surprised by some of the conservative bubbles on that, that the church actually feared the influence that those people have. I don't think the church or us should take them too lightly.

Radio Free Mormon [01:56:36] I just double checked on that YouTube video. It was put up by Greg Matson 12 hours ago. It's got 16, 000 views. So this is not a small thing. This is not a ripple. This is more of a tsunami. And if people don't know what the church is doing, how it's speaking out of both sides of its mouth, I would want them to go and listen to what they have to say so they can be better informed as to what's really going on in their church.

John De Lynn [01:57:01] Yeah, fascinating. Okay, really quickly, really fast, five years from now, Jacob Hansen and Greg Matson, are they members or not? Rebecca, are they members of good standing, active members in good standing five years from now?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:57:16] That's a hard one because I don't know if that if same sex marriage will happen within five years. If it does, I feel like, like they said on the podcast I was on, they would both stay in. However, they would kind of be on the fringes trying to make changes from within or not necessarily sustaining the brethren, but still in.

John De Lynn [01:57:33] So you're saying they're both in. In five years?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:57:35] I think that they might would try their hardest to stay in until it became Impossible.

John De Lynn [01:57:40] But there's also the effect of like, apologists tend, like David Bacavoy or, you know, others like him. Sometimes a. Bill, you start out as an apologist even.

Guest [01:57:50] I thought I'd be in forever rfm.

John De Lynn [01:57:52] Actually, Bill, RFM and me, we all were apologists at one point. Bill, what's your prediction on Jacob and Greg?

Bill Real [01:57:58] I remember a time where I swore I would never be on the outside of the church. I think, I think the more you

Guest [01:58:05] think the more you read, the more

Bill Real [01:58:08] you wrestle with, the harder it is to keep it all together.

Radio Free Mormon [01:58:14] All right, my prediction on Jacob Hansen and Greg Mattson five years in the future is that they will both still be members. And on top of that, they will both be married to each other in the temple. That's my prediction.

Guest 3 [01:58:29] Yay.

John De Lynn [01:58:31] I love it. All right, Bill, back to you.

Mormon Stories: Become a Monthly Donor

Bill Real [01:58:34] Awesome. Grateful for, for the three of you, for everything you guys brought to the table tonight. I just want to urge those who are viewing this live or after we've done the live show, if you watch it already pre recorded, please go to the various channels. You've got Rebecca Biblioteca and the channel Mormonish. You've got Radio Free Mormon with a couple of podcasts, one of them after his name, Radio Free Mormon, and the other one is Mormon Sunday School. You're welcome to mention the Shakespeare one, but I wanted to make sure I got the two Mormon ones in rfm. And then there's Mormon Stories with John de Lynn in Muscle Mormonism Live, that Radio Free Mormon and myself do together. Please subscribe and like to those channels. It certainly helps all of us get these kinds of productions in front of

Guest [01:59:18] more eyes and ears.

Bill Real [01:59:20] And we're just trying to make a difference, sharing a broader view of the news and Mormonism and to help folks sort of know what's going on, keeping the ears to the ground themselves. So appreciate all of you guys and if there's anything else, otherwise we can, we can end the show tonight if

John De Lynn [01:59:37] you guys, if y' all want, please donate to your favorite podcast, meaning Radio Free Mormon Become a monthly donor. Because all of these creators up here needs your financial support, including Mormonish, to, to keep the lights on. So please become a monthly donor to all of these podcasts, especially Radio Free Mormon, especially Mormonish.

Radio Free Mormon [02:00:02] Now, who's giving the mixed messages from the top?

Bill Real [02:00:08] See you guys next week.

John De Lynn [02:00:09] Thanks everyone. Thanks, Bill.

Bill Real [02:00:10] Take it easy, guys.