Breaking News: A New Prophet and First Presidency

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 14, 2025, it's 1259 and the Mormon Church is about to announce a new Prophet and a new First Presidency. And what we want to do is we want to go ahead and live stream it and allow y' all a chance to comment on it.

John Dehlin [00:00:32] And we hope to provide some sort of commentary. So yeah, for those of you who don't know, while we're waiting for it to begin, the Russell M. Nelson recently passed away as the President and Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He was beloved by many. He served for for many years and as is customary, within a week or two or so of the passing of the Prophet, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints announces the new Prophet President and a new First Presidency. I'm anticipating that Eyring will be kept in the First Presidency and that Elder Bednar will be added as a new member of the First Presidency.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] But we'll see and it's starting now. So what we want to do is welcome you all and also I'm going to be sharing people's commentary.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:01:34] I am Elder Gary E. Stevenson and

Video Clip 1 [00:01:37] after the announcement we'll be sharing some

Video Clip 1 [00:01:40] reactions and have been asked to conduct the here's the episode now afternoon's announcement. We welcome you from the Conference center in Salt Lake City, Utah on this memorable occasion of the presentation of a new First Presidency. With the passing of our beloved Prophet Russell M. Nelson On September 27, 2025, the First Presidency was dissolved. The men previously serving as counselors assumed their places in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and that Quorum assumed leadership of the Church with the Senior Apostle at its head. Members of the quorum of the 12 met earlier today to consider reconstituting the First Presidency. This revelatory experience again confirmed to each of us in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles that Jesus Christ directs his Church. We are honored now to announce that President Dallas Harris Oaks was set apart as the 18th president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day.

Video Clip 1 [00:02:47] I think he means Dallin, not Dallas.

Video Clip 1 [00:02:49] President Oaks will now address us.

Video Clip 1 [00:02:55] Am I wrong? Did he say Dallas on accident instead of Dallin? I believe so, but that's okay. We all get nervous.

Video Clip 1 [00:03:04] Thank you, Elder Stevenson. I am pleased to announce that we have a new First Presidency. After an extended process of fasting and prayer, I have been inspired by the Lord to call President Henry B. Eyring as First Counselor and President D Todd Christofferson as second counselor in the First Presidency.

Video Clip 1 [00:03:34] Christofferson.

Video Clip 1 [00:03:36] At this time, we also announce that President Jeffrey R. Holland, under a newly conferred title, is the President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. I'm grateful that each of these men whom I admire and know so well have accepted these sacred callings. We will now hear from President D. Todd Christofferson, followed by President Henry B. Eyring. We will then hear from President Jeffrey R. Holland, President of the quorum of the 12. I will then share a concluding testimony with you, and the meeting will be adjourned.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:22] So it's shocking a little bit that they passed over Bednar as a member of the First Presidency. Less shocking that they passed over Uchtdorf because they would have to have added him, removed him, and then added him again. It's not shocking that they passed over Holland.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:37] This is not what I.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:37] Cause he's of ill health this morning. This is Christopherson.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:42] But I am deeply honored by this calling and the trust that it carries. At the same time, I recognize that I'm not called to be honored, but called to serve. And I'm grateful for the opportunity to serve at the side of President Dallin H. Oaks and Henry B. Eyring.

Video Clip 1 [00:05:06] I recall many years ago slipping into a meeting in Washington, D.C. where I was not invited, but I wanted to hear Dallin H. Oaks, who was speaking. He made a lot of sense then, as he always does and has and does now. And I was most impressed with his many qualities and his intellect, but most of all his spiritual depth.

Video Clip 1 [00:05:35] And I bear witness, as one who's been part of the process, that he is called of God in this current position, this weighty responsibility. And my prayers, my wife's prayers, are with yours for him and his success and the Lord's constant blessings upon him. It is Jesus Christ who is the head of the church. I know that. I bear witness of it. I'm more sure of it every day. I know him. I honor him. I pledge my life and discipleship to him in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Video Clip 1 [00:06:15] So it's a very short talk by Christofferson.

Video Clip 1 [00:06:18] I am equally surprised, as was President Kristofferson, at the wonderful opportunity to serve in the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I love him, and I've always felt that he was urging me to be better and that I was never quite doing it.

Video Clip 1 [00:06:53] And so the feeling of being asked, I believe under inspiration to come and serve again in the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was. I can express the gratitude that I feel for the trust, the trust from the Lord and the trust that President Oaks has shown to me. I love him and know him and can testify that I know that he is the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. By inspiration, I have seen the power of God come upon him.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:47] And it's been a reassuring thing to me to know that just as in the days of old when Peter and others would lead the church, that the people would be able to recognize that that was the Lord's servant to lead his church. I've had that blessing and I've had that assurance come to me. And I'm so grateful for that and grateful for the trust and grateful for the people whose faith I know will sustain us in this great work of the restoration and the final preparation of the Lord's Church for his coming. I bear you my testimony that preparation is occurring and that President Oaks is the perfect one to do the things that I know the Lord will want done. I am grateful to be at his side. I testify Jesus is the Christ. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:00] I'll say really quickly that Henry Eyring is 92 years old to speak for, and he's not of great health.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:08] This is Elder Holland for the seven presidents of the 70, the presiding bishopric organizational heads, all of whom support and sustain unequivocally. President Dallin Oaks as the president, prophet, seer and revelator leading this church for its next moment in time.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:34] We love him. We have known him. We've watched him be prepared and have had the confirmation that that is the Lord's will this day. And that has been a unanimous and a very, very moving experience to see that mantle come fully and completely on President Oaks. We stand ready to serve him out to the newest convert and the most recently called missionary.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:05] I know beyond anything else, I know that this is God's church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The Father and the Son and the gifts of the Holy Ghost will come upon President Oaks in full measure. And I know that that line of gift and promise is true.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:33] And that has been reaffirmed as well today. And I love the work that we're in. Bear testimony of it and say that in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:47] That's elder Holland. He's 84 years old. He probably would have been called, but he's on dialysis, so we'll talk about that later meeting.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:54] And throughout the world, I know beyond any certainty in my life that this is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, restored with the fullness of the gospel that God has chosen to reveal. In this dispensation of the fullness of time and led by prophets to the present day, I accept with humility the responsibility that God has placed upon me and commit my whole heart and soul to the service to which I've been called to the sorry about that of his church and through the apostles of his church. According to the organization that has been revealed to serve us in these latter days, I am grateful for the prayers offered by so many members of the Church for a new First Presidency.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:01] I have felt the effect of those prayers and with my counselors, we will strive in all respects to press forward this great work. Most recently we've been led by a magnificent prophet of the Lord, President Russell M. Nelson. We have much work to do to fulfill the challenges he has given us. And there is more yet to come of which I testify in all humility, the Lord still speaks through his servants.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:35] There is much to be done. For our ministry is a ministry of all the children of God on the face of the earth. We pray for all. We seek to serve all, and we invoke the blessings of the Lord Jesus Christ upon all who seek to serve him, to do so in worthiness and commitment and optimism.

Video Clip 1 [00:13:04] We do not have the answers to all of the world's problems. They've not been revealed. But what we do know is that we are all children of heavenly parents and that we are called to serve all of the children of God in this wonderful restored church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I testify of the Lord Jesus Christ who is the head of this church and invoke his blessings upon all of us as we seek to serve him in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] All right, that was Oaks. Kind of a short and sweet, somewhat predictable, generalized comments. Is that it? I think that might be it. All right, well, thanks for joining us today, everyone. And what I've done now is I'm. I've assembled a panel of cool, sharp people and we're going to talk a little bit about what we just heard. So joining us on the panel today are Julia. Hey, Julia. Thanks for joining us, Julia. And we have Nemo the Mormon. Hey, Nemo.

Panel Reacts to the Leadership Announcement

Guest 3 [00:14:23] Hello.

Guest 8 [00:14:24] Hello.

Guest 3 [00:14:24] Hello.

Guest 5 [00:14:24] On one occasion, Jesus came upon a group.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] Then we have arguing Stephen Pierre from Mormon Book Review. Hey, Steven Pinecre, thanks for joining us.

Guest 6 [00:14:36] Yeah, thanks.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] Mormon Book Reviews. Mormon Book Reviews, Plural. All right, well, Nemo, what time is it there?

Nemo [00:14:45] Oh, it's 15 minutes after 8:00pm okay,

John Dehlin [00:14:49] so it's not too bad.

Nemo [00:14:50] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] All right. Well, we're glad you could join us, all of you. Glad all of you could join us. Do y' all mind if I share just a few things really quick? And then I'll have each of you go around and share your responses as well. Is that okay?

John Dehlin [00:15:04] Okay. So some quick things for everybody. It's important to understand. Dallin h. Oaks is 93. He is reported to not be in the best of health. And I think we could all agree that his voice sounded less strong and a little more feeble than maybe it has in years past.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] But again, when these guys are in their early 90s, what do you expect? You're just not going to expect people in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s, the same type of strength. Couple other things I want to just shout out at the outset. I commented on some of these things.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] You might have thought he would have called Jeffrey R. Holland into the First Presidency. As I mentioned in between presentations, elder Holland is 84. He's relatively young. He's nine years younger than Oaks. If I were to guess why he wasn't included in the First Presidency, I have it on pretty good report that Elder Holland is on dialysis now.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] Full dialysis. Again, I'm not claiming that I have firsthand knowledge of that, but I have talked to people who have very good secondhand knowledge of that, and so I trust it. So that's my guess for why Holland might not have been included in the first presidency.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] Eyring was retained. He's 92 years old. I am also told Eyring is not of good health, and I think you could maybe detect that in his voice as well. Uchtdorf was passed over. He is 84. He's the same age as Elder Holland. I would have predicted he wasn't going to be added because he was previously in the First Presidency with Thomas S. Monson and very controversially was removed from the First Presidency when Oaks, when Nelson took over for Monson. And so I don't think any of us expected Dieter Uchtdorf to be re added to the First Presidency under those circumstances, although it could have happened.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] My prediction was that Bednar, who is 73, was going to be added. He is younger than at least the top nine apostles. Like, he's super young. He's younger than the four apostles that come after him at least. And many people felt like he would be added to the First Presidency to. To prepare him for serving as prophet because Certainly Oakes, Holland, Eyring and Uchtdorf are likely to pass away in good time for Bednar to be able to serve for a very long time as Prophet President.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] But I think one of the biggest, most shocking pieces of news will be that Bednar was passed over. Quentin Cook was passed over as well. And it was D. Todd Christofferson who was to the first presidency at the at the spry young age of 80 years old.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] So he's a good 13 years younger than Dallin H. Oaks. And I will say that for many, I think liberal or progressive or even LGBT friendly LDS Church members, there's going to be a lot of happiness about that because it's well known that if there are more LGBT friendly members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, D. Todd Christofferson is likely to be one of those. And I have not been I've been willing to acknowledge that I'm personal friends.

John Dehlin [00:19:14] I consider Tom Christofferson a dear friend. He is the brother of D. Todd Kristofferson. He is an out gay man who is currently, as far as I know, a member in good standing. He loves his brother D. Todd and I know that they love each other and have a great deal of respect for each other.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] And so for that and many other reasons is why I am willing to go on record and say that D. Todd Christofferson is LGBT friendly. Which is interesting since Dallin H. Oaks, as many believe and as has been reported, was brought into the quorum of the Twelve Apostles in the early 80s specifically to author the LDS Church's gay rights, a same sex marriage sort of LGBT policies that have been very controversial for decades within the church. And of course it's been Dallin H. Oaks, along with the former Apostle Boyd K. Packer, who just almost couldn't give a General Conference talk by some people's opinion without throwing at least some shade at the LGBTQ community in ways that have been very, very hurtful.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] So yeah, so D. Todd Christofferson joining is not expected and I think is going to be welcome to many people that want to see the church make positive changes. So I'll stop there. Those are some of my initial reactions and now I just like to go around the horn and ask each of you if you want to share any, any thoughts or reactions. And Julia, I kind of, I gave you really late notice and you may have to go, but I would welcome you to go first on any reactions

Julia [00:21:18] you have that you yeah, so I watched General Conference this past conference, which was just a couple of weeks ago And I. At the very, very end, I could see Oakes walking, and he was being escorted on one side by his wife, and I'm assuming a bodyguard on the other side. And they were holding his arms. And so he just didn't look like he was doing very well. They were kind of. It looked like they were kind of guiding him. And then you have Holland right behind him, who was in a wheelchair. And then Eyring. I don't. I must have been eyeing. Next. And then Holland, but they were both in wheelchairs.

Julia [00:21:45] And so I was thinking, like, oh, this is just. This isn't very, like, healthy. I wish that they would let these men retire. That's just one thought that I've had. Another thought that I've had, too, is that I hear some. See some people in the comments talking about this amicus brief that was just recently submitted in the courts in September about trans having transgender people have protected rights. And so I. I kind of am curious if this was a Nelson thing or if this is an Oaks thing, because this was, like, right around when. Just before he died. And I know that the. There are other religions that are part of a Sumika brief.

Julia [00:22:17] You have the. The evangelical evangelicals, the. The Jewish Coalition, this. The Baptists, the Southern Baptist Convention. Like, you have a bunch of other different religions that are pushing against trans rights. And so, like. Like, you're saying, like, to me, Oaks is not LGBTQ friendly. And then you have Christofferson, whose brother wrote that amazing book that We May Be one. And so he is. He is seemingly LGBTQ friendly. So there's just this, like, weird dynamic now in the first presidency that I just. I'm curious about to see what would happen, what will happen in the future. So those are the two thoughts I had is just the LGBTQ stuff and then the overall health of the first presidency or the. The older seniority.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] So do you, Julia, are you.

Guest [00:22:57] Are you.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] As someone who identifies publicly as lesbian, does it bring your heart some happiness to see Oakes add Kristofferson personally or not?

Guest 2 [00:23:11] No.

Julia [00:23:12] I mean, like, sure, but, like, I don't. Oakes is the veto. He's the power. He's. He's the one that makes the say in all the things, like, I don't know. Not. Not really.

John Dehlin [00:23:24] That's fine. No, I. And I don't want to push that narrative on you.

Julia [00:23:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] I just was curious if that, like,

Julia [00:23:30] I hope that there's positive change. That's all I can really say.

John Dehlin [00:23:33] Of course.

Guest 5 [00:23:34] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:23:35] All right. Thank you, Julia. Stick around for as long as you can. Nemo. I know. Nemo. You, you for some reason were keenly focused or interested on Russell M. Nelson's health over the past year too. It's almost like you had a countdown. So I haven't even gotten to check in with you. He did pass away. He did. I don't know if that was all you wanted it to be and more or not. I know I'm just, I'm being a little cheeky. But what do you want to say about Nelson's passing? Since I know it meant so much to you in terms of tracking his health and then about what you just heard now. I know, I know. That was, that was awkward.

Russell M. Nelson's Passing and Legacy

Nemo [00:24:16] Yeah, it's, there's not, not everyone that I dress up in a suit for and make a BBC style announcement of their death, you know, that's, it's a special treatment I reserved just for him, really. I think I do have one thing to say about Nelson's passing, which is the complete lack of dignity I think he was shown at his own funeral. And what I mean by that is if anyone wheels my coffin out of a room like it's a piece of furniture with one man kind of just like backing up, pulling me along and another pushing me, I, I, if I'm looking down on that from wherever I end up or up, perhaps then I'm not going to be okay with that.

Nemo [00:24:50] And I, I think it's very strange for a man that was so venerated and called beloved by so many people for his coffin to be treated in that way. And maybe that's me coming from a different culture. Maybe that's normal in the States to kind of just wheel someone out like they're an old TV being moved on a trolley. But it, it seemed to lack a certain dignity the way he was, his, his body was handled. There, there is a contrast that I saw with this meeting. The press weren't consulted. There was no Q A. You know, you said at the end, you know, was that it?

Nemo [00:25:21] Because I believe at the end of Russell Nelson there was a Q A. I believe we also got Russell Nelson making these promises, you know, like, take your vitamin pills, get some rest. This is just the beginning, you know, big exciting announcements. We didn't even get like a eat your green beans and whatever from down hx. It was none of that. All we got was this sort of odd little meeting that was compared by Stevenson to announce this. And it went on for like 15 minutes. And interestingly detailed Christopherson, because I've been looking some Things up here. D. Todd Christofferson compared the last meeting where Nelson was announced.

Nemo [00:25:57] So it's interesting now that he's on the First Presidency. I'm sure it's got nothing to do with it. Just a cool little coincidence. The First Presidency is now two lawyers and an mba. It is the typical makeup of church leadership.

Nemo [00:26:10] Because Christopherson is a successful lawyer. He talks about being in meetings in Washington D.C. we know he's involved with some high level stuff. Dan Lake jokes. Again, another lawyer. And then for some stability, Eyring, who has a master's in business. The combined age of the First Presidency is 265 years old.

John Dehlin [00:26:27] What's the average age, Nemo?

Nemo [00:26:31] That would be something around just under 90, something like 89 or whatever. 86, 7. But then the final thing that I picked up was that at the end, Dallin H. Oak said, our ministry is a ministry for all the children of God on earth.

Nemo [00:26:49] But then he proceeded as the prophet who's claiming to have a ministry and responsibility to all of God's children on earth to only invoke blessings on those who seek to serve Jesus Christ. Those are the only people he actually invoked blessings on. And he said a sentence. And I'm not sure if it's the way the sentence was passed or if it's actually what he meant. But he also said, you know, we have responsibility to all of those within this church. I don't know whether he was saying we within this church have a responsibility to all or whether he was narrowing down that responsibility to those within the church.

Nemo [00:27:18] It was a bit of tricky syntax. But he definitely did only invoke blessings on those who seek to follow Jesus Christ, not on the all of God's children that he said that they have a ministry and a responsibility for. So I found that interesting and rather telling really. Those are my thoughts that I wrote down.

John Dehlin [00:27:37] Thank you, Nemo. Yeah, they didn't give us much to go on. And you're absolutely right. I remember when Nelson, when the church announced Nelson becoming prophet, he had Oakes and Eyring there. He had a press conference. And I remember that's when. That's when Nelson, I guess. Peggy Fletcher Stack from the Salt Lake Tribune.

Nemo [00:28:02] Yeah, there was that Matthioso style moment, wasn't there?

Guest 4 [00:28:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:05] Where she's like asking him some sort of question and he responds, I know your parents. You know, we have family. It's. Why do you call that mafioso Nemo?

Nemo [00:28:15] Oh, because it's like I know where you sleep type. It had that feeling of, like, I know. I know who your people are. I know what makes up your social circle. I am in charge of that thing. Don't mess with me. Don't go. Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] I thought it was more like, I know who your parents are, so be nice, because I know. I know who your parents are.

Nemo [00:28:34] Well, yeah, it's a similar thing, right? It's like, I know your family. I know the intricacies of your life. I know the people around you that you find important. Like, we are connected. Invoking that to a journalist in any way undermines the. Their ability for, or seeks to undermine their sort of journalistic impartiality towards you by trying to invoke a familial relationship. Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:57] Yeah. Like Peggy's. Peggy's gonna be our girl or our woman because we. All our families go way back. Is that what you're saying, Nima?

Nemo [00:29:05] It could be that. It could be anything from. From a veiled, like, don't mess with me to a. Oh, she's. She's. She's one. You're one of us still. Right, Peggy? Sort of thing. Either way, it feels like it kind of crosses a bit of a journalistic boundary.

John Dehlin [00:29:19] There's a. There's a question from our audience, and we'll get to you, Steve, in just one second. Matt Schoen is asking if President Monson had a press conference when he was made profit after Gordon B. Hinckley died. I don't remember that. Do any of you?

Nemo [00:29:37] Don't recall? I can look it up.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] We'll ask our audience to answer that question. All right, well, thank you, Nemo, for sharing your initial reactions, as well as Julia. Steven Pietegar from Mormon Book Reviews. We love your perspective, not just because you're a dear friend and a smart guy. You are the only one on this panel that's never been ldf. Yes, you come at. For those who don't know Steve, he. He runs a YouTube channel called Mormon Book Reviews. He has an evangelical perspective, and he just is super smart and kind and thoughtful. So, Steve, what. What things do you want to share about your reaction?

Guest 6 [00:30:22] Well, first of all, I just want to say to all the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you know, the events over the last few weeks have been very traumatizing. Losing your profit, and then later that day, that tragedy happening in Michigan. So this is still a time of mourning for your people, and I love you and appreciate you. I also want to honor the work that President Nelson did do. He was a transformative prophet, probably one of the most significant ones in the history of the church. And so we can't dismiss the work that he did and the impact that he will continue to have on this church for many years to come.

Guest 6 [00:30:59] I found it very interesting that Christopherson was named to the First Presidency. And, you know, you guys probably know this. My sources have told me that there is a deep divide in the quorum of the 12 over LGBTQ issues, and I found it very interesting that he was selected. I don't know if this was a political thing, but I think they might be sending a message here which. See where this goes. I was surprised to see some people not, you know, that were overlooked, and I wanted to. Real quick. I. I just want to make sure I. I heard this correctly because I was setting up during.

Guest 6 [00:31:36] They are doing the announcement. Did they say that they created the new position? President of the quorum of the 12? Jeffrey Holland is something like that. Okay. I wanted to make sure that's.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] That traditionally, whoever the most senior apostle is who isn't is. Well, actually, this. The senior apostle who's not prophet President is always the official president of the quorum of the 12. If that person happened the number two in line, if that person happens to be in the First Presidency, which. Which was the case in the last First Presidency. In other words, Oaks was the technical president of the quorum of the 12 when Nelson was Prophet, but Elder Holland became the acting president or the quorum of the 12 because Oaks was in the First Presidency. And I think what I heard was Oaks just acknowledging that now that Oaks is the Prophet. Elder Holland now switches from acting president of the quorum of the 12 to official president of the quorum of the 12.

Guest 6 [00:32:41] So I was visiting one of the local wards a couple weeks ago, and I was talking to a member and Who's. Who's a fan of. Of my program and actually watches your program too, John. And. And was. We were talking. Talking about, you know, the. The passing of President Nelson, and I was like, you know, I get this feeling that in the 1980s, there was a series of presidents of the Politburo in the Soviet Union passed away in a very short period of time. And I just kind of have a feeling that we're going to probably have, like, three presidents of the church, like, in the next five years over, of course, of like, a very short period of time.

Guest 6 [00:33:18] Especially watching them today. They're all seated. It was a highly scripted event, and you could just tell by the way they talked that they're. They're not. They're they're old, and Elder Howland actually was the one of all of them. They actually seem to have the strongest voice of all of them while speaking. And so I just have this feeling that this. This. This event that happened will. Will be doing more of these types of streams talking about the next prophet. Because I just. I don't think. It just appears to me. It's just obvious to me as an outsider that we're going to probably have a quick succession of presidents of the church over the course of the next few years.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] I think mathematically that's almost certain to be true. I. I think there were probably some speculation as to whether or not Eyring would even be retained or. I was wondering. Some were thinking that it was taking a little bit too long for Oaks to be actually called. And I think there was a rumor going around. I think my friend Bishop Bowe even reached out to me about it. There was rumor that they weren't going to call Oakes because he was too old, and that they were potentially going to skip him and Holland and Uchtdorf and maybe go straight to Bednar. And I said, there's no way Oaks is not going to become prophet.

Nemo [00:34:43] He's waited too long for this.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] So that's interesting.

Nemo [00:34:51] Another point, John, is they didn't call a new apostle. So we have no announcement of the. Who the new apostle might be. So we're still at a group of 14 men rather than 15.

John Dehlin [00:35:00] That's normal that they wait till general conference normally to do that. That's my understanding. What's your. What's your.

Nemo [00:35:06] Announced before, I believe.

Julia [00:35:08] Yeah, I think so too. And then that's a whole six months because conference just happened. And I think you're right about Kieran. He was.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] Yeah, Kieran is called. Kieran was called.

Julia [00:35:17] Not during conference. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] Okay. Okay.

Nemo [00:35:20] Yeah. 9th of December, 2023. There's a. There's on Church newsroom.

Julia [00:35:24] Okay. Yeah. So likely it'll happen.

John Dehlin [00:35:29] Okay. Thank you for that comment, Steve. It's great to have you. It's great to have you all. One thing that I noticed, it seems like. Well, these talks were all very short, which I think is great. People are theorizing that they had everyone sit down, at least in part, because there's several people there that literally couldn't stand. So as I understand it, Irene can't walk unassisted. Oakes can't walk unassisted. And Holland's on dialysis, as is reported to me, and I don't know if he could walk unassisted.

Oaks' Conference Presence and Diversity Observations

John Dehlin [00:36:06] So some people thought that was interesting, that they all remained seated. And again, that's just a product of the gerontocracy. I also thought that for Oakes's talk, I did feel like his speech was slurred and slowed, that it was weak, as I mentioned before.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] But did y' all notice that he mentioned that his ministry was for all children of God? He kept saying all, all children of our heavenly parents wanting to serve all. I think he might have said it three or four times, just in like a one minute time frame. And what I would. The tea leaves I was reading from that is that even though many, let's just say, critics of the church or LGBT advocates would tend to want to anticipate that Oaks is going to be a bad actor, that Oakes is going to be mean to the LGBTQ community, and I think that the church would anticipate that that was going to happen.

John Dehlin [00:37:16] The people are going to maybe assume that or fear that or think it. To me, it was interesting that, that if he had one, meant what one theme that he drilled in the few minutes that he actually gave a talk, it seemed to be inclusiveness. Did any of you notice that? Do you think I'm totally just interjecting that, or do you think that's something valid?

Nemo [00:37:39] I do wonder the extent to which they care about how they're viewed in that respect and how much they might be playing. Like who. Who are they playing to? Is it members of the church that are concerned over this sort of stuff or is it, you know, the wider world? Because I don't think, I think what the church has been seen to be doing certainly recently and maybe under Oaks, it'll change. They seem to have been playing this game of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And sort of chumming up to any religious organization that supports their positions on various issues and that allows them to, you know, put forward briefs, etc, to try and argue for certain positions that they want.

Nemo [00:38:19] So I don't, I don't know whether they feel the need to try and be inclusive. The USP of the church, the unique selling point of the church isn't that it's inclusive in many ways. It's that it is the only true church. It is the only place where you can receive the things you need to return to live with God in heaven. So I don't know, I don't know whether we might be giving too much credit there to how much you, they. The church wants to actually appear inclusive. I don't know.

Julia [00:38:49] Can I say something? Along those lines too, please. So these past General conference, there was the four main sessions and there's the Saturday evening session. So on this topic of inclusivity, I noticed that there was four blacks. There was four. One black speaker per session. And then the Saturday evening when they had a black person say the opening prayer. And I thought that was really interesting. I don't. I think that's ever happened before. And I wasn't sure if this was like reflecting of the growth in sub Saharan Africa if Oaks is trying to be more inclusive or trying to. And part of me was excited because I was like, maybe we're going to have a black person in, in the 12 or in the, like more in the 70, because I know there's some of the 70 now, but I don't know, I just was hoping that we'd have more.

Julia [00:39:29] More representation there or I don't know, more diversity. Because I think most of the members are black right now. Black people from Africa. I don't know if that's accurate, but I think it is. Anyways. Just was wondering about that with the topic of inclusivity.

Nemo [00:39:41] Well, they had the same number of black speakers as they had female speakers at conference. It was five to five.

Julia [00:39:48] Okay.

Nemo [00:39:48] If you include prayers.

Julia [00:39:50] All right.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] Is that more than normal, Nemo, or.

Nemo [00:39:52] I believe that is more than normal.

Julia [00:39:53] That does seem. I feel like it's only two or three. So yeah, it was even pretty for the women.

John Dehlin [00:39:59] So that's to the church's credit that they're increasing the representation of black speakers at General Conference, I think.

Julia [00:40:06] Well, and women too, it sounds like.

Nemo [00:40:07] Yeah, well, no, women's remained level for the past few years.

Julia [00:40:10] Oh, so that's not a spike with the women.

Nemo [00:40:12] No, there was once. There was once a glorious general conference where I believe five women spoke, not including prayers. It was in the heyday of like actually having a women's session. I think that's what tipped it just over the edge. And then it just never happened again.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] Nemo, I. I have to ask you this because I, I think you track. It is. Were you able to determine whether this, this was the conference where the name Joseph Smith was mentioned the least of all time? Did you track the number of mentions of Joseph Smith in this last conference or not?

Nemo [00:40:41] I did track. I tracked the number of quotes. That's key. It's quotes rather than just mentions. He was quoted very little. I feel like there's been other conferences where he's been quoted less. So this wasn't a particular low point for him. It was A particular high point for Russell Nelson with him beating out Jesus. You know, he was quoted more often than Jesus Christ in this last conference.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] Russell and Nelson was.

Nemo [00:41:08] Nelson was. And that may be the last time we see that. We kind of expect that it's his funeral conference. But yeah, yeah, Oaks will be on the rise for the next.

Guest 6 [00:41:17] Yeah, so I just wanted to chime in too. I really think that the, the next newest apostle will probably most likely be an African American.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] And I'm, I'm.

Guest 6 [00:41:26] My money's on Ahmad Corbett myself. I think that, that, that's just my speculation, but I think he's going to be fast tracked. He's an interesting guy because his name's Ahmad. He was. What makes him so fascinating. He was raised in the Nation of Islam and he, Malcolm X personally held him as a, as a baby. So I think it would be super cool to have somebody who was raised in the Nation of Islam have an Islamic name.

Guest 6 [00:41:53] An African American who both in his lifetime as a child was held by Malcolm X and, and may very well enter the upper echelons of one of the most powerful churches in America and in the world. And I think it's quite an amazing story, a remarkable American achievement. And actually look, say what you will about the church, but I think Ahmad life is probably greatly improved because his mother decided to convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I just think that's just something I want to throw in there as an up.

Nemo [00:42:28] I reckon, I reckon it'll be Peter M. Johnson. They did a little bio thing about him between sessions of conference. He spoke at this last session of conference so I feel like they're getting members of the church used to him. Okay, so another African American senior church leader, but I reckon Peter M. Johnson, that's where my money would be. Rather than Ahmad. Ahmad's a little bit controversial. He said some quite fiery things, that's true. Not that that would ever stop them at all. But yeah, I wonder whether it might be Peter M. Johnson, but I'm with you on, on the idea that it's likely to be an African American.

John Dehlin [00:43:05] There's one comment from Richard. Richard writes, I work in a senior facility. When you stop walking unassisted, your days are numbered. That I think that mirrors comments made from this panel today. I think, Stephen, it was you who made the comment that we may see three different profits within. Within a time span of five years over the next few years. I think that's very possible. Let's talk really quickly about the Down H. Oaks Passing over Holland and Uchtdorf, Bednar and Cook. Anyone want to respond to that? I mean, it could just be who he's comfortable working with or who the Lord told him to call. It doesn't have to be a hot take or controversial. Anybody want to opine or even speculate about Holland, Uchtdorf, Bednar and Cook being passed over as first presidency members?

Why Holland, Uchtdorf, and Bednar Were Passed Over

Julia [00:44:11] I'm reminded of one. One instance. Sorry, Nemo. I'm reminded of one instance where Oakes, he has this famous. I think it was the. I can't remember which newspaper was. But they said you were. They said, Oaks, you were quoted as saying that the church does not give apologies. And he was with Christofferson during that interview. And they have really since put that interview away. And then they. You can find the clip, though, where he says that makes that statement. But I wondered why then that they were both together. I wonder if there's some kind of camaraderie there that isn't with the other ones.

John Dehlin [00:44:38] My understanding is whenever I think Oakes, either Christopherson was. I think he was assigned to the PR committee. So apostles traditionally have assignments. And so, like, I think Quentin Cook right now is over the missionary program as his apostolic assignment. And my understanding is that. And there might be a senior or junior member in each of those assignments, but my understanding was that for sure, Christofferson was part of the pr. That PR was part of his assignment at the time. And it may have been in that role.

Julia [00:45:23] So I wonder if that could have something to do with it. Is it just as he's more aware of the PR stuff that needs to be happening or that will be happening? I don't know. I just wonder. Nemo, you had. I know you had a comment to say.

Nemo [00:45:32] Yeah, as. As to why they may have been passed over. I think the reason Oakdorf gets passed over isn't a surprise to anyone. I think it would be too much of like a. You looking like a U turn. I think Oaks is going to be sensitive to the legacy of Nelson in some ways, while also trying to put his stamp on things in another. So a clear example of that is when he got up at the end of the last General Conference that we just sat through and he went, yeah, no more temples. Sorry, guys, that's not happening anymore.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] How shocking was that, by the way?

Julia [00:46:03] I think I was really smart.

Nemo [00:46:05] Yeah. I think anyone who knew what was going on there could have seen it coming. Because I think it became very apparent that Nelson just got a kick out of announcing temples and other people were Forced to scramble to try and make them happen. And Oaks is like, yeah, we're not doing this anymore. We're gonna just show some temperance. We're going to show some restraint and we're just gonna chill for a minute.

Guest 6 [00:46:25] Yeah, that was a real shocker to me. A pastor friend of mine just texted me and I wanted to read what he said. He said, John's right. I thought Oaks was sending overtures to the progressive wing of the church because he kept reiterating that the mission of the church was ministry to all of God's children. So I think that's kind of where in the evangelical world we're kind of picking that up as well, looking for these signals, the ones in the evangelical world that are actually paying attention to what's going on here. And, oh, there's something else I want to say, but I forgot. So we'll just move on

Nemo [00:46:55] then. So Oakdorf gets passed over there. Right? Because otherwise it would see as a snub to Nelson's decision to remove him. Because there's clearly some reason why he didn't remain. Because it's. It's unprecedented. Well, not unprecedented, but he's the first in a long time to not be removed because of ill health. He was just removed from the First Presidency. He wasn't retained bed. Now, I want to say that was

John Dehlin [00:47:15] just because Nelson wanted Oaks as a confidant. Others believe it's because Zuktorf was too liberal, too friendly to questioning or doubting Mormons. And I think we're probably all speculating.

Nemo [00:47:30] Yeah, we will never know the reason, but there clearly was one. That's not the norm.

Julia [00:47:36] So is it. I think it's true to say that. That in the order of seniority, it's always gone in order where the prophet is always the next one in line. But it's the First Presidency, the two councilors that are often switched up. So they cannot. Is it correct in saying that they cannot pass up? If Oaks were to pass away, Holland won't be passed up and then Oakdorf won't be passed up going in the order of profit. Is that correct?

John Dehlin [00:47:57] Prophet is almost always the next senior most. But Quorum.

Julia [00:48:03] So yeah, it always has been. Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] If.

Julia [00:48:05] I don't think if.

John Dehlin [00:48:06] If Oaks died today, it's almost guaranteed that Holland would become the next problem.

Nemo [00:48:12] No matter how unwell he is, they might end up with a. With a First Presidency of several members, as has happened in the past.

Julia [00:48:18] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:19] But yeah, the First Presidency members, counselors in the First Presidency don't need to be current apostles, not only do they not have to be high in seniority, they could be literally outside the quorum of the 12 and brought in and made apostles for the specific purpose of becoming members of the First Presidency. I don't know if that answers your question, Julia, but there's no correlation. There's no, there's no requirement for sure. Seniority requirement in the first Presidency councilors.

Nemo [00:48:55] So I think from that point of view, Bednar maybe is too strong a figure and will get his chance at the top. I wonder whether Christopherson is just being a lawyer. Maybe they're trying, maybe they're focused. Because you've got to think this is an administrative decision as well as a religious one. Pragmatically speaking, this is who is administering the affairs of this church at its most senior levels. This massive organization with, with hundreds of billions of dollars, this organization is currently contending with constitutional issues in the United States as it sees it. So they've got the man at the top who's got a very legal mindset. I don't think it's surprising that he picks the other lawyer and goes, well, he can come and help. That might be most comfortable, conferring about those issues with someone else's.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] Yeah, yeah, I, I, it, it has to be the simplest answer. The Occam's razor simplest answer is that Oaks doesn't care for Bednar. And we know that apostles have rivalries and have opinions about each other. And for me, I don't think there's any other real feasible explanation other than that Oaks doesn't really want to hang around Bednar and, or feels like Bednar would not be good for the First Presidency. Is that too hot of a take? I mean, because the guy's 73. You know what I mean?

Julia [00:50:27] Well, and then you had Nelson last time. He said, I think he said something akin to Oaks and him were buddies and that's why he, he means no ill will to Uchtdorf. Like, so it could just be a friendliness and like, or a non friendliness on the part of Bednar. So I don't think that's unfair to speculate that. Like, I'm just, I'd be curious because, like, with Stephen, like, what you're saying, how there's a division in the First Presidency, there's might, there might be other topics that there's division over rather than just the lgbtq.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] But the thing is, is, yeah, it's been widely reported that there are more LGBT friendly and let's just say more family proclamation, unfriendly apostles on one side and then more LGBT antagonistic and more proclamation friendly apostles on the other side. I think we all would have put Oaks on the LGBT unfriendly family proclamation friendly. And we all would have put Christofferson on the LGBT friendly, possibly proclamation on the family less friendly. And so that's, I mean, is that simply. We're speculating now, but is that Oaks wanting to maybe try and unify the quorum?

Guest 6 [00:51:46] I think that's. There's a political aspect to this that I even thought like, okay, is this, is this kind of like an acknowledgment that of the division and this was a good compromise. Christopherson was a good compromise person to put in there.

Guest 3 [00:51:58] And.

Guest 6 [00:51:59] And that's kind of was the first thought that it was in my mind. And so I think that's. That's probably likely. Again, we're just speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised. Just being a poli sci guy myself, you can kind of just see how these kind of things work in behind the scenes and all the politics and lobbying that goes on.

John Dehlin [00:52:15] Yeah. Really quickly, I'll just share one comment. I guess I just lost it. But there was one commenter that basically said that Christofferson is the most likable of the top seven choices who isn't super ill. I have heard people say that Quentin Cook is kind of quirky and not always super likable. And then Bednar is, I think, potentially the least likable of all the quorum of the 12 other than Oakes, by many people's report that I've talked to. And then of course, Uchtdorf can't be in there because he was previously in the first presidency. And then Eyring and Holland just aren't well, but I guess D. Todd Kristofferson is the non Uchtdorf that is the most, like, the most liked and the most healthy of the top remaining top six. How does that sound?

Nemo [00:53:22] Sounds about right.

Audience Questions and Live Comments

John Dehlin [00:53:23] All right, well, we were inviting people to comment on their reactions or to ask questions just for fun. We've included a link. We've pinned a link to joining Streamyard on the YouTube feed. And we'll just take a risk and bring on Richie. Hey, Richie.

Guest 7 [00:53:43] Hey, how's it going?

John Dehlin [00:53:45] Hey, thanks for joining us. Where are you calling or joining us from?

Guest 7 [00:53:49] Spanish work? Utah.

John Dehlin [00:53:50] All right, Utah County. Represent, represent. What's your question or comment?

Guest 7 [00:53:57] Yeah, so my question was more about Wendy Nelson, the President Nelson's spouse who passed away. Does she kind of now just kind of kind of go back in the shadows. Like, I don't know. I never really thought about that. But the only thing person I could think of was was Emma and then how she was kind of treated, but also with her decisions that she made. I was just kind of wondering what happens to Wendy. I mean, she probably can't even date. Like, just because. Just because she's sealed to the prophets, like, I don't know, just kind of weird.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] I mean, technically she can date and even get married. Whether they would allow her to get sealed. My understanding is nowadays the church is willing to let women get sealed to multiple men, although they used to not allow that. Y' all in the comments can correct me if I'm wrong. It used to be that men could get sealed to multiple women, but women could only get sealed to one man. My understanding is they've started to be flexible about that. But I think, Richie, I think implied in your question is that Wendy Nelson, President Nelson's widow, right. Was very prominent, and now all of a sudden she's not going to be very prominent anymore, Is that what you're saying?

Guest 7 [00:55:08] Yeah. It's almost like she kind of had a calling with her, you know, with her husband being the prophet. And now it's almost like, I mean, will she get to speak at conferences? Are we never going to hear her from her ever again? Kind of a thing. Like, it's kind of, kind of, kind of interesting.

Nemo [00:55:23] I. I don't think we ever will, Richie, because unfortunately she was. And I don't say this to be cruel to her personally, I say this because this is the perspective of the church. She was only important because of who her husband was.

Nemo [00:55:36] That very sad reality that all of the. I remember when. When the. When three apostles came to the UK and they spoke, they. One of them was asked, is there a word for the wives of apostles? Do they have their own title? And I can't remember what the response was, but it was so glib and dismissive. I still remember how it made me feel, which was, you poor women. Why? Why are you putting up with this treatment? Oh, my gosh, help me, or something like. It was just very dismissive. I could go back and look it up at some point. But, yeah, they are significant to the point that they essentially follow their husbands around.

Nemo [00:56:13] And Wendy particularly grabbed hold of that and really went for it and seized it as an opportunity. And she spoke at some meetings. She spoke at a special European broadcast a while back and stuff like that. But now that her husband's gone, a living prophet's more important than a dead prophet. That's always been the case. And so with his lack of relevance fading, hers will fade even quicker.

Guest 6 [00:56:35] You know, it's interesting, in the evangelical megachurch world, the, the female, the pastor's wife is often referred to as the first lady or a co pastor. So that's kind of how it is in our world. And by the way, wasn't that a great Bears game? I saw your shirt. I'm a Bears fan. What a great game. But yeah, I think in the evangelical world, they've, women have kind of ascended up a little bit more, but it's often in, in regards to their husband. But of course, we do have like Paula White, who's also a pastor and advisor to Donald Trump.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] There's a comment Kevin M. Writes, Wendy was the 16th apostle. I think there was a feeling that she had a disproportionate influence, especially because once President Nelson was 95, 96, 98, 100, how much can he really be leading the church and making decisions? But if he has a very young, significantly younger, healthier, vibrant, opinionated spouse, then she might be able to have a significant influence, especially as she gatekeeps and guards his communications with others. So anyway, fascinating question. Richie, thanks for joining us. It's good to have you.

Guest 7 [00:57:48] Thanks for letting me take. I've been following for a really long time. Would love to ask for Julia to keep coming out with content.

Guest 8 [00:57:54] We love your stuff.

Guest 7 [00:57:55] Oh, thanks for the rest of you guys. But yeah, thank you for having me on. I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [00:58:01] All right, thanks, Richie. Go Bears.

Nemo [00:58:05] Go Bears.

John Dehlin [00:58:07] Okay, so have you all heard about, am I the only one that's heard from inside sources that Quentin Cook, like Elder Bednar, maybe isn't super likable or is kind of a tougher, rougher personality

Nemo [00:58:25] that who is, sorry, Quentin Cook, I don't think you need inside sources to see that. You just need to listen to him speak.

Guest 4 [00:58:33] What do you mean?

John Dehlin [00:58:34] What do you mean?

Nemo [00:58:35] Whenever he speaks, particularly not at conference, when Quentin Cook, he's come to the UK a few times in recent years because he served his mission here, don't you know, and he kind of just reminisces and meanders. There's not often a lot of substance to what he says in those sorts of meetings. And even at conference, I've never sort of blown away by what he has to say. He never, you know, like takes a can open to the conversation, rips it wide open, says something interesting, opens up some bold new idea. He just kind of is. And so to me, I'm not sure that it's. That he's distinctly unlikable. I think he just kind of is a bit of a non. Entity.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] Yeah.

Nemo [00:59:16] From, from my perspective, the one thing I'm.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] The one thing I'm aware of is that he served as some sort of like management consultant type that was involved, I think, in like a lot of mass layoffs at at least one hospital in the Bay Area.

Guest 4 [00:59:31] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] So, you know, as someone who myself was once a management consultant, I know that management consultants can have a bad rep for just being willing to fire lots and lots of people. And that's something I've heard about Cook, in addition to people having direct interactions with him where he can sometimes come off as a little bit off personality wise. But, you know, I can't say I know him. Right. And yeah, Christopherson is just genuinely smooth and. And likable.

Nemo [01:00:07] So this is the two thirds of the first presidency I've now had personal interactions with. I've spoken to Christopherson in person when he. He came over here. We had a brief chat and then I obviously have my own history with downlit jokes and we need to not get into here. Oh, funny. Genuinely quite likable. Yeah.

Julia [01:00:34] I met Christopherson at byu, Idaho and he was great. I loved him.

John Dehlin [01:00:38] No, and I. I have friends in Nashville. Apparently. D. Todd Christofferson was a stake president in the Nashville area for quite some time. And my understanding is he was very, very well liked by the people of Nashville as well. All right, I'm excited that we have Bishop Bo. Bishop Boiler joining us, has been on Mormon Story several times. He was Carolyn Pearson's bishop in the Walnut Creek area. Julia's got her mouth open. I guess she didn't know. I didn't know that.

Julia [01:01:07] Why did I not know that? That's so cool.

Guest 3 [01:01:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:10] Julia, you should check out Mormon Stories podcast. You know, it's quite popular.

Nemo [01:01:15] Bit long though. Julia, not gonna lie.

Guest Perspectives on the New First Presidency

John Dehlin [01:01:20] Bishop Bo, did you get to hear the talk and if so, any reactions?

Guest 8 [01:01:26] I did not get to hear the talk. I just tuned in and saw that you guys were doing this live and so I thought I would join. Thank you for, for letting me. I will add a little bit to this conversation. I think that Nemo is spot on.

Guest 8 [01:01:39] My one experience with Elder Cook was when I was bishop and it was a multi stake bishops and stake presidents training and he was leading it and it was Elder Cook and Bishop Cass before he was bishop. He was a 70. I was thoroughly impressed with Bishop Cass and. And have presented to him and when I Was hired by the church to do some consulting and have had experience with him since. And I think that he's wonderful.

Guest 8 [01:02:06] Elder Cook was interesting because he probably spoke for 45 minutes and I would say 40 of those minutes. It was just the name game and it was him going around all the bishops and stake presidents and sharing experiences with, you know, this person and that person and this person. And you know, I didn't know any of these people. I was just a 33 year old bishop who didn't know anybody really anybody else in the room. And so it's just one of those things where it's just like, you know, this glory, glorious manifestation of patriarchy and boys club and you know, just sharing stories of, of all of these priesthood holders that were in the room and then really no ministry whatsoever.

Guest 8 [01:02:49] I literally can't remember his testimony or anything that he taught. And so it's just an interesting experience to see from the backside of priesthood leadership of just like, okay, like when you get to those places, what matters is who you know, it's what presence you have within, like that room and what presence you have within, you know, that, that group of boys and what memories you've had and, and this idea of just like, oh good, you're still here, you're still here, you're still here and let me pat you all on the back and tell everyone else how great you are.

Guest 8 [01:03:23] And so, you know, he's, he, I wouldn't say he's a nothing burger, but within the system he is somebody who brings that uniting force of like, hey, we're in this together. We're the chosen, we're the priesthood holders who can come together and still be, you know, it's like Alma reuniting with Amulek. And it's like, good, we're all still faithful and let's all pat each other on the back for that. And so, you know, he's just going to take assignments from the brother and, and go and do that.

Nemo [01:03:50] Yeah. Speaking of name game, can we just point out, because I'm not sure it's been mentioned yet, Gary E. Stevenson said that it was Dallas Harris Oaks that was called as the 18th President of the church. I know it was just a slip of the tongue, whatever, like, I'm not going to run him over the coals for it, but I think it is worth pointing out that in this big solemn moment, the man, the man didn't quite catch it.

Guest 8 [01:04:14] That's so interesting. And I will say one other thing and I don't know what the Conversation has been so far with the four of you, but I think that it's interesting that we have Christofferson being called into the First Presidency. I'm actually super optimistic about this. I think that it's fascinating with his brother and with him being more queer affirming that you have Dallin H. Oaks, which I think it's so easy to pin him because of who he is and what he said for 40 years in this. In this space of like, you know, like the most queer phobic, apostle, prophet, seer and revelator that we've had possibly ever. I don't know. And then he calls in Christofferson, who may be the most queer affirming.

Julia [01:05:04] Do we know that? Do we know that he's queer?

Guest 8 [01:05:07] It's a good. It's a good point. We don't.

John Dehlin [01:05:09] What I know for sure is that he's super close to his brother Tom.

Guest 8 [01:05:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:15] And that love each other and that he had. And that Tom has Todd's ear as a beloved brother. And I know that Tom wants only the best things for LGBT church members.

Julia [01:05:30] Well, like you say that, but like, I'll push back a second because in the 2015 policy, he. He was filmed in the. Spoke in a. In the newsroom, where he was answering the question of why children of LGBTQ parents could not be baptized. And he was saying, oh, this is for the children. I can't remember exactly what he said, but to me, that was a really harsh thing for the LGBTQ community and for him to. To back that up and to. To support the church leaders. The church's decision on that. That to me was like, oh, maybe he's not as. As queer friendly as I was hoping. But like, yes, you're right. With his brother being queer and with like, his family being so affirming, I just wasn't sure if he exactly is. Is as affirming as we're making him out to be.

John Dehlin [01:06:10] Can I respond to that, Julia? And then, Bo, you may want to respond as well. My understanding. Okay, so you're right. I looked up. I was forgetting what was the context of Oaks and Christofferson appearing together for that press conference. It was in January 2015, about, you know, one to two months after that disastrous November 20, 2015 policy. Is that right?

Julia [01:06:36] I think so.

Guest 8 [01:06:37] Sounds familiar.

John Dehlin [01:06:39] It's. No, actually confirmed that it's. I just checked. I just checked Google AI and it's saying that they met in January 2015 to announce the Latter Day Saints position on balancing religious freedom and LGBT non discrimination. Can Somebody Google this to find out. Because my understanding was, was that they did a press conference to respond to the awful November 2015 policy. And what I had been told behind the scenes was that Christofferson did not want to be the spokesperson for that awful policy, but he was given the assignment, and so he had to do it. So I need people to fact check and tell us if we've got the dates wrong, but my understanding is, is that sometimes just.

John Dehlin [01:07:39] Just like I heard that Holland didn't want to give that musket talk, but he was given the assignment to give the musket talk. I was told that Kristofferson was given the assignment of defending the church's awful LGBT decisions, but that that wasn't in his heart. So, Julia, that. That's my understanding. And sometimes they have to. To show their loyalty, they have to swallow their personal preferences.

Julia [01:08:10] Okay. Yeah. I just wasn't sure where he was, actually. If we knew. If we knew more about him personally, if he was more LGBTQ friendly or not.

Guest 8 [01:08:21] Yeah, yeah. My. My only experience with that, Julie, And I think that's a fair point.

Guest 5 [01:08:25] And.

Guest 8 [01:08:26] And I guess that's why I phrased it as the most affirming within the group. I'm not necessarily saying he is affirming, other than I know that he and his brother are close. I've talked to him, to his brother, and, you know, I know that they are close. I also, when the policy happened, I spoke with somebody who's very much in the loop, and she just said, you know, I got a call from Tom, and Tom had gotten a call that was somewhat a panicky call from Todd that he was not part of that decision and that this is what's happening. And so, you know, I guess that's. That's what gives that basis for me. And then he also hasn't come out in. You know, I can't remember any clips that are akin to, like, Bednar, for example. Firesides. Exactly.

Guest 3 [01:09:15] Yeah.

Julia [01:09:15] I was just going to say, yeah, Bednar. He said that there are no lgbt, there are no gays or lesbians in this church. We're all just should identify as children of God. Yeah, that was really. I wonder if that's another reason why he was looked over. Why Bednar was looked over. Yeah.

Guest 8 [01:09:27] So I guess. I guess part of. Of me in the nuance is like, wow, isn't this amazing that maybe the most or one of the most affirming or kind or open has been called into the First Presidency. And that is a balancing. Right. Like, I know When I called different bishoprics or different counselors, I wanted to balance it out. I didn't want to just be with my bros. I wanted to be with, like, okay, people that represent different, you know, sides or, you know, sides of the spectrum. And maybe that's what's happening on the other side. Maybe. Unbeknownst to us, Christofferson is the lawyer who is drafting the latest amicus briefs, and he's the one who's drafting the trans policy, and he's the lawyer doing the dirty work for Oaks. And. And it is his brother. I don't know.

Julia [01:10:16] I sure hope that's not the case.

Guest 2 [01:10:21] We can.

Nemo [01:10:21] We can never know fully. I think the only thing we do know is that Dallin H Jokes is ultimately in charge. No matter who he calls onto the first presidency. He's. He's the top man. He gets all decisions. You know, he's the king. They're just the princes who wouldn't be princesses, because there's never gonna be a woman. So they're just the princes. Right. So there's this structure that he is very much at the top of. He's very much in charge of what he says goes. So I'm not sure how much the positions of those that accounts is actually matter.

Nemo [01:10:55] I just don't know, because I don't. I can't. I can't see how ironing or Oaks, you know, Oaks, the fact that Oak's the first thing he does when he's just head of the quorum of the 12, and he's essentially the head of the church, not the prophet, yet the first thing he does is pull the brakes on temple building. Shows that he's probably been thinking about that for a little while. He'd probably been there going, yeah, this is not. We need to pull back on this. We need to pull back on this.

Nemo [01:11:19] But you couldn't do it while Nelson was in charge. I don't know if that's particularly. Because Nelson had a particularly strong sense of self and. And what he wanted to achieve and whether Oaks might be more amenable to his counselors. I guess time will tell on that.

Guest 8 [01:11:32] And I can't say everybody's the same as me, but certainly when Nelson did that, it brought back memories of when, for decades, me sitting in ward councils as a counselor or as a, you know, somebody in a support role, making notes. I literally had a note, a running list of notes, that if I'm ever called as bishop, this is what I'm going to do, you know, and by you Know, for the most part, those, those bullet points piss people off because it was doing things like, you know, asking women to be on the stand and different things like that. But like, I had a running list, so of course Oaks has a running list.

Julia [01:12:11] Come on.

Guest 8 [01:12:12] We all do. We all do.

Oaks, Christofferson, and LGBT Policy History

John Dehlin [01:12:19] So I'm, I'm trying to make sense of all this and I want to just, I want to make sure I'm not sharing misinformation. So I'm just going to share a couple things really quickly. So on the one hand, and I think we may need to do an episode about this, on the one hand, I want to correct myself.

John Dehlin [01:12:41] The press conference that Oaks and Kristofferson gave was not in 2016 in response to the disastrous November 2015 LGBT policy. According to what I'm reading, it was a press conference that they gave around the January 2015 time period.

John Dehlin [01:13:07] Here's the Salt Lake Tribune article that's produced by the BH Roberts Foundation. It says, it's titled we All Can Be More Civil on LGBT Issues, Mormon Leader says. So this was, I believe, the press conference where Christofferson and Oaks appeared together. And it was in this talk that Oaks, I believe, made that famous statement, we neither seek nor give apologies.

John Dehlin [01:13:39] I'll read from the article. When asked in an interview if the Utah based faith would apologize for its harsh rhetoric of the past, LDS apostle D. Todd Christofferson said, quote, the doctrines, values and beliefs all related to this haven't changed and won't, but I think we can express things better. And then it says Christofferson, whose brother is gay, was involved in creating an LDS Church sponsored website, mormonsandgays.org, which doesn't exist anymore, by the way. But Christofferson led that apparently, which I forgot.

John Dehlin [01:14:15] And, and so, yeah, it's interesting that again, Christopherson was involved in the creation of the Mormon and gays website. The. The other thing that I just am confused about, I pulled up a transcript and it may be something different. It's a transcript around this time that, that has Christofferson and I believe, Oak speaking together.

John Dehlin [01:14:45] I wonder if this is a quote that the church kind of wants to go down the memory hole and doesn't really want people to remember. That's probably an obvious thing. Right?

Julia [01:15:00] Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:01] Yeah. Really quickly, we do have someone else joining us. His name is Bryant. Hey, Bryant, can you hear me?

Guest 7 [01:15:13] Yeah, I do. Oh, hi there. So I have a quick question for you, you guys.

John Dehlin [01:15:20] Where are you joining us from? Brian. Brian, where are you joining us from?

Guest 7 [01:15:25] I'm from the Philippines.

John Dehlin [01:15:28] Oh, fantastic. We love having someone from the Philippines. I want to do a Mormon Stories episode with, with some Filipinos. Anyway, sorry to interrupt you. Thank you for joining us. Brian, what's your question or comment?

Guest 7 [01:15:44] So I have a superior question to the LTS membership about President Dallin Oaks because I have one witness here on homosexuality ideas about his thoughts regarding the discrimination of the homosexual LGBT, LGBTQ

Guest 4 [01:16:06] and

Guest 7 [01:16:06] he is one that I really found on his YouTube interview last 1987, which I really forgot the quote, contempt the sinner, but condemn the sin. So what is actually thought that Dallin Oaks is condemning that there are no biblical obsessions about same sex and sexual orientations of opposite sex.

John Dehlin [01:16:36] All right, well that was, I'm so glad he joined us. That was a little bit hard to understand him. Does anybody want to take a stab at restating his question and maybe answering it? Nemo, go ahead.

Nemo [01:16:48] I believe the question was why is the church talking about condemning the sin but loving the sinner when it comes to same sex relationships, when there's no biblical sort of push back against those types of relationships by a lot of the understanding of a lot of biblical scholars would be there's no actual sort of pushback against that. And I believe that was his, his question. I think there is a simple answer which is the church believes in modern and continuing revelation. So all they have to say is, well, God told us that no, it is wrong done, end of story. I guess that's why, that's, that's how the church can, can play a lot of these things. You know, there's no need for any sort of big bust up conflagration, anything like that, any sort of deep dive into anything. It's just what the modern prophet says goes.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] Any other boded, Joe, anything you wanted to add?

Guest 8 [01:17:41] No, it's really hard for me to understand. I don't, I don't want to misspeak because I don't think that I quite captured what he was asking.

John Dehlin [01:17:49] I mean, I'll just say, you know what I think we all are fearing. I think Elder Oaks, along with Boyd K. Packer, the late Boyd K. Packer has historically been viewed as the most homophobic of any LDS Church apostle of the last 30 or 40 years. And on the one hand we would want to see the church make positive change or positive progress in this regard. Some of us, others are going to be elated that Oaks might be, might, might make the church less LGBT friendly. But it seems like Bryant was basically alluding to Oaks's reputation as being more harsh. And I think we're all probably a little bit nervous about what Oaks might do with the LGBTQ community. Is that fair?

Guest 4 [01:18:42] Very.

Guest 8 [01:18:43] And, and I would say too, like, if you compare them to Packer or to Kimball, you know, even early comments by our teachings. Not comments, prophetic teachings by Hinckley. You know, there are much more heinous quotes out there than. Than Oaks. I think that for me, what, what tips Oaks over the edge is that none of them had a $300 billion purse like, like Oaks has for the last 25 years to be able to take his opinions and use our tithing money to, to campaign for those opinions. And so that, that's why I think that Oaks has actually had more significant power within. Even though some of the quotes from Kimball, Benson and Hinckley are more heinous, I think that the effect is greater with Oaks because of the behind the scenes work that he and Kurt McConkey and our hundreds of billions of dollars are doing.

John Dehlin [01:19:48] Julian, Steve, anything you want to add?

Julia [01:19:52] I mean, I don't know if I can add more, but like the. I think he was quoting, Brian was quoting the. Where he says love the, love the sinner, hate the sinner, hate the sin. And like to me, I don't really know if Mormons know how to do that. There's this.

Julia [01:20:06] If you don't mind me, I'd like to read this quote from, from now President Oaks. This is in 2006 and he says this is the. I'm reading this off of the on the record with latter gay stories. And it says concerning. Concerning family acceptance and inclusion on homosexual children. Oakes advised parents of LGB children to tell their gay children, don't expect to stay overnight. Don't expect to be a lengthy house guest. Don't expect us to take you out and introduce you to our friends or to deal with you in a public situation that would imply our approval of your partnership. To me, if my parents weren't doing this, I would feel very much like I wasn't loved.

Julia [01:20:42] So I don't know if. I don't know if even Oats or the. A lot of members of the church don't know how to balance the two. Where you love the, love the sinner, hate the sin. I don't, I don't think that. I think we can do a better job of trying to balance that.

John Dehlin [01:20:58] I mean, that was an awful time when Oaks and Wickman gave that statement talk. It just seemed like in the 2000 teens, late 2000, early 2000 teens. It just seemed like the church made so much progress towards the LGBTQ community, including the Mormon and gays website, you know, including changing its rhetoric, including the non discrimination ordinances that it helped champion in Utah. And I think to correct myself, that January 2015 press conference slash Salt Lake Tribune recording that Oaks and Kristofferson did, as I understand it, was around the church trying to advance the non discrimination compromise that it ultimately forged with the state of Utah.

John Dehlin [01:22:04] And it was then that Elder Oaks made that comment. And that was a full year before Obergefell, you know, the November 2015 policy. But it has been discouraging to see the church apparently backslide in many ways with the LGBTQ community over the past few years, including getting rid of the Mormon and gays website and including making its trans policies, its transgender policies, very harsh by many accounts. On the other hand, Charlie Byrd and his partner are still members in good standing. And I do think the church continues to try and have kind, non harsher judgmental rhetoric with the LGBTQ community.

John Dehlin [01:22:53] So I think it's a big question mark as to how Oakes is going to treat that particular topic. It could be he goes harsh. And you know, I was thinking one horrible conspiracy theory is he brings Kristofferson on as, as, quote, an ally or as a voice of the First Presidency and, and then makes more harsh LGBTQ decisions. And that forces Christofferson to have to endorse as as a more liberal, LGBT friendly member of the Quorum. It forces him to have to show support for Oaks more harsh decisions. That's one take, but it's speculating. I think we're doing Kremlin watching here. The other option is that it's a sign that Oaks is actually going to be more friendly to the LGBTQ community and surprise everyone.

John Dehlin [01:23:47] And then that doesn't even mention everyone's wondering as to whether or not the family, the proclamation of the family is going to be officially canonized during the Oaks administration.

Julia [01:24:00] Julia, I was going to say just during this past session, one of the. I can't remember who the speaker was, but he called it doctrine. Was it. Was it Rasband or Renlund? I don't. I don't remember who it was, but they, they reiterated the family proclamation a lot during this session and I. That was definitely a theme that I noticed anyway.

Guest 8 [01:24:15] Yeah, Rasmun for sure.

Julia [01:24:17] Oh, Rasmund. Okay.

Guest 8 [01:24:18] Yeah, yeah. And I think one other comment or made the comment that it was that it was doctrine. And it's that in the past too. I mean, they're definitely gearing up state conferences, regional conferences. Well, there's a lot of pushing the family proclamation.

Guest 7 [01:24:29] Right.

Nemo [01:24:29] Oaks's talk was came out and he tried to say, well, I prepared these remarks before, but President Nelson passed away. But it was very clear he came out and he wanted to talk about the traditional family that is going to characterize his presidency one way or another.

Guest 7 [01:24:44] Yeah.

Guest 8 [01:24:45] Yeah, I totally agree. Hey, I gotta sign off.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] All right, Bo, thanks for joining us. Julia, thanks for joining us. We'll take a couple more, we'll take a couple more comments and questions and then we'll go ahead and end. Well, I don't want to, I don't want to keep this episode longer than it needs to be. Nemo and Steve, I'm wondering if y' all have any other occurring thoughts or feelings as I'm going over some of the, the comments in the chats before we, before we sign off.

Predictions for the Church Under Oaks

Guest 6 [01:25:14] Yeah, thanks.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] Go ahead, Steve.

Guest 6 [01:25:17] The church is at a crossroads. They've and this is a, this is a period of time that's going to be looked at as very decisive in where the church is going to go. I think the church looks at the evangelical world and also looks at the mainline Protestant world and also the community of Christ world to get direction on where they want to go. And I think they have this fear that if they go too progressive, it could lead to them becoming a community of Christ, which by all accounts is not a thriving church. Also, the same thing happened with the mainline Protestant dominations in this country.

Guest 6 [01:25:53] And we have seen that they are using the evangelical playbook in many ways, including purging any progressives from BYU and which was very similar to what the evangelicals did in the Southern Baptist Convention and other churches. They purged all their colleges and seminaries in the 70s and 80s of anybody that was progressive. So we're seeing very similar things where the church kind of is usually about 20 years behind what the evangelical world is doing.

Guest 6 [01:26:20] But now we have to look at also the fact is, is that the cultural influence of Trumpism in this country that you saw this direction going where they seem to be more friendly, but this country has made a real sharp right turn and the support for LGBTQ people is declining, as opposed to being that there would seem to be upward support for that movement amongst the American people. Now it's declining. So I think there's also reflective of the current cultural situation that we're in. The rise of Trumpism has had an effect on just about all the churches in this country, for good and bad. And so I think that's a thing that we got to look at too.

Guest 6 [01:26:57] Three, four years ago, I would have told you that probably in the next 10 to 15 years the church would probably be more accepting of LGBTQ relationships and have some accommodations for them. I still think that's in the cards, but maybe not as likely as I thought it would have been three or four years ago just because of the cultural impact that's the evangelicals and Trump is having on this country.

Guest 6 [01:27:18] So yeah, this, I, I, I, I have a very murky crystal ball about what things are going to be looking like in the next 10 to 15 years. And I think a lot of people in the quorum of the 12 also are looking through a murky crystal ball.

John Dehlin [01:27:32] Thank you, Stephen Nemo Final comments I

Nemo [01:27:36] mean, I can't really speak to the state of the United States the particularly as an outsider. All I can say is looking at the church and looking at the sort

Guest 3 [01:27:48] of

Nemo [01:27:51] looking at the, the differences we might see under a Dick jokes presidency. I think not all of them are going to be good for the church or certainly for those who, the progressive members of the church, the people who want to see the church change in certain ways. I think it would be good for the church in terms of stability. I don't think he's going to run around changing things in a way that Nelson did. I don't think he's going to particularly be a prophet of change or big changes. Not that Nelson's changes were actually that big. He announced a lot of temples, he changed the church logo and he said the word Mormon was very, very bad.

Nemo [01:28:28] But apart from that, there wasn't really a ton that he kind of oversaw. I know he was touted as this prophet of change, but I don't know whether he was just more dynamic than the general sort of caretaker prophets that we tend to see.

Nemo [01:28:44] So the church is on the, yeah, I, I, I, I think in general they're on the edge of this sort of like crevice, this falling off a cliff in certain countries where things like seem like they're teetering. And I wonder what this stability ability is. What's going to help right now?

John Dehlin [01:29:05] I'm, yeah, no, thank you, Nemo. Thank you, Steve. I'll just say my guess is that Oaks has been waiting for this moment for decades and decades, that he's got a list just like Nelson did. He's got a list of big changes that he wants to make. Nemo I've mentioned this in previous episodes. I think Nelson actually changed the church quite A bit in very positive ways. It's my opinion that changing the church to be two hours instead of three, giving women and women missionaries more prominent roles, adding so many temples and changing the logo, taking away the identity of Mormon and focusing more on Christ, I see that as profoundly transformational for the church. And in my opinion, it's a very positive move for those who want to see the church become less Joseph Smith focused and more Christlike.

Nemo [01:30:12] I wonder whether it did become less Joseph Smith's focus and more Christ like, or whether it actually became less Joseph Smith focused on more Russell Nelson focused.

John Dehlin [01:30:20] No, that's valid. That's a valid point. I. I think it's something we may want to have a dedicated episode about. It's probably something we could measure, like, like you said, by number of Russell and Nelson quotes in conference versus Jesus quotes in conference versus Joseph Smith quotes in conference. We probably could come up with the number to show that statistically or numerically. But, but anyway, you already have. I want to see that chart.

Nemo [01:30:49] Yeah, yeah, no, I do. I do it every conference session. I look at how many times Jesus is quoted, how many times Russell Nelson's quoted, how many times Joseph Smith's quoted. It's a game.

John Dehlin [01:30:57] So has Jesus gone up? Has the mention of Jesus gone up from the end, from. From whatever happened months and before? Has mentions of Jesus gone up during the Nelson administration?

Nemo [01:31:14] I. I don't know that that's my question. But what I do know is that mentions of Russell Nelson, of course, in a way that Thomas S. Was never quoted.

John Dehlin [01:31:26] Okay, well, I don't doubt that whenever someone becomes prophet, they get quoted more. And that just makes sense to me. And maybe he was quoted more than past new prophets. And I'm, I'm even. I'm willing to concede that.

Nemo [01:31:40] But the point, Jesus Christ.

John Dehlin [01:31:42] Okay, well, what I would also just like to see, Nemo, is the count of mentions of Jesus Christ once Nelson became prophet.

Nemo [01:31:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:55] The guess is it goes up, which I think is a good thing if it's true. But I anticipate big changes from Nelson. I think we'll all see in the coming months and years ahead. And I hope they're positive. I think that's what I'm going to say. I do wish Dallin H. Oaks well. I. I hope we all give him a chance to do good. I hope we all give him our, our, you know, our fondest wishes and our. Our best hopes and prayers, or secular prayers as we have it. And I hope he doesn't obviously fulfill the biggest fears of those who are most fearful about what an Oaks administration means.

Nemo [01:32:49] Yeah, no, here's, here's to, here's to it not being as bad as we think it might be. Definitely. And was it Benson that softened? He had very strong views. And then when he became president, the church actually a lot of that kind of melted away a little bit. And you, you could see that with Oaks. You could see. We saw some genuine emotion from him in this last conference when he was speaking. He was, you know, reminiscing about the way his grandfather treated him when he's, you know, when tragedy struck. So I think, yeah, we, we can. We saw a little bit of the human behind the stern lawyer for a moment. And if more of that could come out, then we could see some positive things.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] Debbie mentions John. She writes Oaks, not Nelson. John, I. If I miss, if I misspoke and use the wrong name for either Elson or Nelson or Oaks, I apologize. I didn't mean to. I'll just say it again. I hope Oaks does good healing, positive things for the church.

John Dehlin [01:33:55] And I will say I was alive and paying attention when Spencer B. Kimmel died and when Ezra Tapp Benson was made a profit. And I remember people saying to me at the time, there's a lot of members that are afraid of Ezra Tab Benson becoming prophet. And I didn't get that. As a seminary student in high school. I'm like, Benson's awesome. Why would anybody be worried? But I didn't know about the John Birch Society stuff and kind of the anti communist rhetoric that, that he was responsible for in the 60s and 70s and 80s.

John Dehlin [01:34:32] So I didn't get what people talking about. But I do remember people feeling kind of like expressing sighs of relief that Benson softened as prophet and didn't bring all that anti communist, you know, John Bircher rhetoric to the pulpit as prophet. And let's just hope Oaks follows Benson's example. Can we all agree with that?

Guest 6 [01:35:02] Yeah, I can agree with that. Absolutely.

Guest 5 [01:35:04] Yeah.

Guest 6 [01:35:05] And I think, I think that's what's going to happen. Honestly, I think. I think, you know, like to say only. Only Nixon could go to China. And I sometimes wonder if the conservatives who will take over the church will be the ones. They'll move the church in a different direction.

John Dehlin [01:35:20] Yeah. Just quickly, Stephen and Nemo, do y' all think that the proclamation on the family will be in some way officially canonized during Oakes's term, or is it already sort of pretty much in effect canonized because now it's been declared as doctrine in general? Conference, or do you think the church will backtrack from that Nemo? Do you have an opinion?

Nemo [01:35:47] Yeah, I don't think it's going to become DNC139. I mean, I've joked about it a few times and been like, you know, is this the next section of Doctrine Covenants? But I, I wonder whether it might end up in the official declarations at the back or something like that.

John Dehlin [01:36:00] What's your prediction?

Nemo [01:36:02] I think. I think we'll get it. Official declaration number three.

John Dehlin [01:36:06] Okay. And I mean, is the church still issuing quads? You know, quadruple combinations? I mean, everything's gone to LDS tools and online these days. Like this idea of it being canonized, is that a. Is that anachronistic at this point, or is that still a significant symbolic gesture if it were to happen?

Nemo [01:36:30] It's a good question. I think part of the issue there is the way that they define what the canon of Scripture is. And it's so murky at this point. I think in order to provide themselves with wiggle room that you. It used to be very easy to say, well, if it's in the quad, then it's there. Right. But like you said, now it's gone online. That's just made it even more murky. So it is, it is tricky to say.

John Dehlin [01:36:54] Stephen, do you have a prediction about the proclamation of the family?

Guest 6 [01:36:57] No, I really don't. I. I just think they got so burned on the November policy. I just. I just. I just feel like they were so burned by that that they would be afraid to maybe make it official doctrine. I, I don't know. That's just my.

John Dehlin [01:37:11] But Oaks is. Oaks will make, you know, Benson. Benson had the Book of Mormon flood the earth with the Book of Mormon. Kimball had the, the Lamanites and the, the. The reversal on the priesthood ban. Right. Hinckley, you know, was kind of this modern, jovial, almost like a, Like a PR profit. Right.

Guest 4 [01:37:34] Yeah.

Guest 7 [01:37:36] I.

Oaks' Potential Legacy and Doctrinal Changes

John Dehlin [01:37:36] What was Monson's mantle? Was it service?

Nemo [01:37:40] Service? He's caring for the, the widows and the Caring.

John Dehlin [01:37:43] Caring for the poor. Like, I, I guarantee Oaks has in mind what his mantle is going to be. And it's not. It's clearly not going to be temples. So what is it? What's Oaks mantle gonna be?

Nemo [01:37:59] It's going to be solidifying the traditional family. I think that's, that's been his focus for such a long time.

John Dehlin [01:38:05] I mean, the thing that comes to mind also is religious freedom.

Guest 4 [01:38:09] Right.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] He is clearly all about fighting for churches to retain their right. If you want to put it kindly to have religious freedom if you want to discriminate. Right, but. But clearly a candidate for his mantle might be the proclamation of the family canonized, and it might be big moves around religious freedom. What else is there? Missionary work, service, spending money. And, you know, do we even want to share what we would want to recommend to Oaks if he were to ask us what the mantle should be? Do we want it to be spend some of your money on the poor, spend some of your money on the needy?

Nemo [01:38:56] I'd love to be his mantle. To be his mantle to be the prophet that revolutionized, you know, the church's charitable spending or the prophet that revolutionized the church's efficacy as an aid organization or whatever it might be. That would be great.

Nemo [01:39:11] Imagine, and that's what I don't understand sometimes, is how they can't quite capture the vision of what a wonderful legacy that would be. As men who claim to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, as men who claim to represent him on earth, I don't see how they don't catch the vision of going, what if our legacy was the church that ended world hunger or that ended these issues or that really stepped up and alleviated the suffering of people around the world? He spoke, like you said, a few times in quick succession about how their ministry is to all of God's children on earth. One of the biggest ways they could show that is by serving the poor and needy, taking up the scripture in as much as you've done it unto the least of these my brethren, you've done it unto me.

Nemo [01:40:00] Going out and actually finding the least of their brethren and helping them. What a thing that would be to be remembered for. I don't think it'll happen because they seem to have a different value structure for some reason.

John Dehlin [01:40:15] There's a couple interesting comments that are coming in. I'm just going to share them really quickly. Debbie writes, didn't Oak say there are temporary revelations and ones that can't be changed?

Nemo [01:40:26] Temporary commandments?

John Dehlin [01:40:27] He said, yeah, temporary commandments. So, like, is it possible that the Book of Mormon could be downgraded from a translation to a revelation during the Oaks administration? Is it possible that the Word of wisdom. I think that's a likely candidate. That coffee and tea could be allowed during an Oaks administration? I think that's. I think that's very possible. You're nodding your head, Steve.

Guest 6 [01:40:57] It seems like that's the one big thing people are think is going to happen at next general Conference. They always say word of wisdom and all this, I. I think, I mean, in light of the fact that people are eating. I mean, you go to swig and you go these places and you're putting all this junk in your body, these energy drinks, and then you look at. Black coffee is one of the healthiest things you can drink. Tea can be very helpful. I just think it's a real simple thing that they could make some exceptions to. And also the Word of Wisdom makes accommodations to drinking beer, barley drinks. So who knows?

Nemo [01:41:29] But the word of wisdom has never been taken as it's written. Otherwise half the members. Half the members of the congregation wouldn't be allowed to temporal recommend because they eat too much red meat. Exactly. There would be the issue there. And unfortunately, the man who's just been called to the first presidency gave a talk at this last general conference about how tea and coffee aren't acceptable, about just reaffirming some of the standards from things like the. For the strength of youth. That was Christopherson, I'm pretty sure.

John Dehlin [01:41:57] Yeah, but maybe. I mean, I think that if you look at the way the church is now destigmatizing tattoos, destigmatizing multiple ear piercings, and shortening the garments, and shortening the hours of church attendance every Sunday from 3 to 2, and shortening the temple ceremony significantly. My money, My money is on allowing coffee and tea. I don't know about beer and wine. I know that early saints drink a lot of wine. I'm in the Kirtland, the Kirtland temple dedication of 1836. In John Turner's biography, there was a lot of wine drank, consumed in Kirtland in. In 1836. But anyway, my money is on potentially editing the. The Word of Wisdom to bring it up to date. And there are rumors about church attendance going from two hours to one. Have you guys heard about that rumor? Constantly.

Nemo [01:43:10] Yeah. Yeah, I think. I think with. With the garments, they did make a change, and I think that change run away from them in a way they maybe somehow weren't expecting. I don't know why they weren't expecting a black market to spring up for people getting their sons to bring home suitcases full and selling them on. But that's just, you know, people are hustling. People in Utah are always hustling.

Nemo [01:43:31] But on the allowing or whatever with like tattoos and multiple piercings, I think that one was, honestly, from my perspective, I think that one was a mistake they didn't intend to make, as in they softened some of the language. And I don't think they were quite Prepared. Prepared for how readily people would go, well, if it's not explicitly banned, I'm just gonna go and do it. I don't think they were ready for, for that level of people going, all right, if the strength use doesn't say I can't have a tattoo, I guess I'm just going to go do it. I think they were more expecting people to read into it and go, okay, it's still saying your body's a temple, you should treat it with respect, etc.

Nemo [01:44:10] We all know what that's code for, so we're going to carry on as was. I just, I don't think on that one they were necessarily expecting it because they've tried a couple of times to say things to the extent of just because it doesn't say you can't do it in there doesn't mean that basically we're saying you shouldn't because you should treat your body like a temple.

Guest 5 [01:44:30] Yeah.

Guest 4 [01:44:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:32] Well, I'll just. A couple comments I'll share in clothing as closing as we wrap up. Barbara Anderson writes, black coffee with cream is very healthy. One of the best drinks ever. Scott writes, black coffee in moderation has health benefits. This is funny. Music Wisp writes, wait, they could get multiple piercings now. Yes, Music Wisp that has been destigmatized. Debbie Donovan writes, monster energy drinks cause cancer. That's absolutely true, Debbie. Donna Put also writes, swig soda causes diabetes. And that's true about all the soda shops so delicious and all the other ones throughout Utah. Shannon M. Writes, traditional family is Oaks's baby. So I think it's very likely somehow Oakes Focus will be the traditional family. Phil Clegg says, religious freedom, which is what I also theorized and also,

Guest 3 [01:45:37] you

John Dehlin [01:45:37] know, there's always, there's always the idea of the proclamation of the family. And then Kelly writes, just jumping on, wondering why Holland wasn't put in the first presidency. Any particular reasons? I mentioned earlier, Kelly, that I I've received by good report the, the report that Elder Holland is fully on dialysis, which as I understand it, doesn't give him more than a year of likely surviving. Now, I don't know if that's true, but when somebody's in their 80s on dialysis, my understanding is they don't have a multi year longevity at that point.

John Dehlin [01:46:16] So anyway, again, I hope Elder Holland lives a long time, but those are some of the things that I've heard. All right, so I'm just going to close and say I think this is good news. Overall, I think Christofferson in the First Presidency is a good thing. I think he is a good guy by all accounts.

John Dehlin [01:46:37] I think he'll be a good presence in the First Presidency. And I think Elder Oaks giving messages of inclusivity is a hopeful sign. And I think many of us were concerned about a potential Bednar in the First Presidency and certainly a Quentin Cook in the First Presidency.

John Dehlin [01:47:00] So I think how can a christofferson in the First Presidency not be a better announcement than a Cook or a Bednar for those who want more kindness and less strictness or less harshness or less unpleasantness. So I would count today as a good day overall for what we were expecting. Stephen, any final words?

Guest 6 [01:47:25] I just want to say I love the people of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I will pray for your leadership. I think that there are a lot of good things that are happening in your church. I do believe that the Lord's Hand is involved in this and I love all of you. And Godspeed to the brethren and that they continue to serve the people and bring about reforms to the church.

John Dehlin [01:47:47] All right. And check out Mormon Book Reviews with an S with Steven Pinegar on YouTube. Stephen does a great job. He's a bridge builder. He's a dear friend. And Steven, I'm glad we could have you. Please go subscribe to Stephen's channel. Do you agree, Stephen?

Guest 6 [01:48:06] Oh, I totally agree. And make sure you subscribe to Mormon Stories and Nemo the Mormon too.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] I was going to say that next, but thank you. Before we turn it over to Nemo, I'm just going to remind people right now we're interviewing have you ever wondered why the Mormon Church is growing leaps and bounds in Africa? Have you ever wanted to hear from an African who joined the church, who happens to be a medical doctor and who happens to know everything about the church's truth claims? Do you want to know when he was converted, whether or not he was told about the priesthood ban before he joined and or what he did when he found out after he joined about the priesthood ban and what his life has been like being in the church as an African and why he would start to question his faith as an African from Kenya who happens to be a medical doctor Right now that episode is streaming in competition with this episode.

John Dehlin [01:48:59] His name is Dr. Joe Ghatia. He's from Kenya. Please switch over right now to An African Kenya Mormon story with Dr. Joe Ghatia. Or please watch and listen to it because he gives some really hot takes on whether he thinks the Mormon Church is doing Good in Africa.

John Dehlin [01:49:19] And it's not the answer that I think many of you will be expecting on Mormon stories, so please check that out. And, Nemo, I want to give you the final word. Nemo, what do you think? Is today a good day?

Nemo [01:49:32] Overall, I think it is. I think what we'll see is a very legalistic approach to the church. I'm thinking, and I've been reflecting during this, on. On talks by Christopherson in the past. Think about talks he gave about how resenting the law of gravity won't stop you falling off a cliff.

Nemo [01:49:49] And similarly, not liking God's laws doesn't mean they don't exist. He has a very sort of firm, strict view of what the rights and wrongs of the universe are and what the eternal laws of God are. And so it'll be interesting to see how that interplays with some of the ideas people have been putting forward about his more inclusive view towards the LGBTQ community when he has this very strict view of eternal truths that do not change and eternal laws that do not change. And it's how he'll balance those two things if he is going to make any sort of progress in that area.

Nemo [01:50:24] But, yeah, it's going to be a very legalistic approach to the church, but I think it's better than Bednar. I think in many ways, Bednar and Oaks in the same presidency might have been too much of a clash if two people were too strong ideas.

Nemo [01:50:38] And, yeah, we'll see. And we'll see how long we have this first presidency for, because the head of it is 93 years old. Statistically, it's a couple of years, max, probably. So we may be seeing each other again quite soon for another episode like this.

John Dehlin [01:50:56] And subscribe to your channel. Nemo, the Mormon Nemo.

Nemo [01:50:59] Yeah. We've just gone over 40,000 subscribers, which is quite fun.

John Dehlin [01:51:03] So congrats.

Nemo [01:51:04] Thank you. Come along, join in. Go check.

John Dehlin [01:51:07] Are you rich yet? Are you rich yet, Nemo?

Guest 5 [01:51:09] No.

John Dehlin [01:51:10] Are you independently wealthy?

Guest 4 [01:51:12] No.

John Dehlin [01:51:13] What?

Nemo [01:51:14] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [01:51:15] Oh. So then what. What should people do?

Nemo [01:51:18] People should join my. My Patreon, if they like, where they can come and join in Q and A's every month, where they can ask me whatever questions they like and inform the direction of the channel or just jump on my donor box if they want to send me money with nothing in return. Any of those things are great.

John Dehlin [01:51:34] All right. Well, Nemo, we adore you as we do Stephen. We're really grateful that you would join us. And. And we're really. Yeah, we love what you do. And we hope you'll join us again soon.

Nemo [01:51:48] Yep, happy to. And it's nice to finally be on a show with Stephen. I don't think we've been on a show together before, so it's a pleasure.

Guest 6 [01:51:55] I'm glad we did it.

John Dehlin [01:51:56] Let's not make this the last time going forward.

Guest 6 [01:52:00] Stephen, sounds good.

Closing Thoughts and Show Wrap-Up

John Dehlin [01:52:02] All right. Thanks, Nemo. Thanks, Stephen. Thanks to Bishop Bo. Thanks to Julia. Thanks to everyone who's joined us today on Mormon Stories. We couldn't do this without you. If you value this type of content and you want to see it, continue, please go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Or you can go to mormonstories.org donate and I'll put that right now in the link. All you gotta do is become a monthly donor and you can help replace the people that drop out as donors every month.

John Dehlin [01:52:37] We really appreciate that type of support because we can't do what we do without your support. So please become a monthly donor if you're not already. There are also ways you can support us. You can subscribe to our channel. You can, you could like this episode. You can comment on it. You can share it with others. You can also like and subscribe on YouTube, Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, and wherever you find Mormon Stories content. We always appreciate your support. We love your emails. You can email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and give us your feedback.

John Dehlin [01:53:12] We always appreciate that. And you can always apply to be on Mormon Stories podcast if you have a story that you think would be particularly interesting or valuable to our audience. We absolutely invite you and welcome you to subscribe. You can literally go to mormonstories.org apply and that will take you to the application form. To become a potential guest on Mormon Stories podcast, you have to record a three minute video. That's probably the most important part of the Application is your 3 minute video where you tell us why you think your story could be useful and you let us. You give to us the impression that you are a listener, that you are a fan, that you know our audience and that you have a good sense for why your story would be useful.

John Dehlin [01:54:01] Please continue joining us on other shows. We're doing our series with John Turner in his biography Joseph Smith, the Rise and Fall of an American prophet. We're like 16, 17, 18 episodes in. I highly recommend that series along with the second Code Class Saint series that I did with Matt Harris and the LDS discussion series that I did with Mike from LDS Discussions in Nemo. That's probably the most important thing we've ever done is that LDS discussion series discussing Mormon Church truth claims.

John Dehlin [01:54:34] Please check that out as well and we've got great episodes in the weeks and months ahead. We've got a new bridge building series that we're doing with Jana Spangler, Julie Diazavedo Hanks and Bishop Bo Euler where we're trying to do more peacemaking and more bridge building. So check out those types of episodes as well in the weeks months ahead. Thanks for joining us in the comments. Please like and subscribe and comment.

John Dehlin [01:55:03] We thank we thank everyone for their live stream comments. Be good to each other, be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Best of luck to Dallin H. Oaks, new Prophet, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, his new first counselor, Henry B. Eyring and his new second counselor, D. Todd Christofferson. We wish them well and we wish the LDS Church positive things in the weeks, months and years ahead. Take care everybody and we'll see you soon on Mormon Stories Podcast.

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