Welcome and Episode Introduction

Nemo [00:00:05] Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Mormon News Podcast. I'm Nemo. I'm one of your hosts. Sat next to me is the man who normally does this introduction, but his accent is less British than mine, so I got the job, I suppose. Welcome, everyone. It is Friday 21st August. We've got some exciting stuff to talk about. So from wherever you're listening, welcome, welcome. And we should start really with a question. John, what happened yesterday?

John Dehlin [00:00:31] Hey, Nemo. Nemo. It's weird to be a guest on my own podcast, but here we are.

Nemo [00:00:35] Weird, right?

John Dehlin [00:00:36] No, I love it. I love it. All right. Yeah, so yesterday it was my birthday. August 20th is my birthday. So I'm 57 years old and I was just enjoying a birthday, doing some work, and all of a sudden, ABC News local, I think Channel 7 reached out to me and said, have you heard about the new lawsuit the church is going to be filing against you? And I'm like, what? And they're like, yeah, we've all been notified in the media that the church is about to release a press release.

Mormon Stories Lawsuit and Amicus Briefs

John Dehlin [00:01:09] And. And of course, the media was contacted before actually the participants in the lawsuit. But I frantically tried to figure out what was going on. All of a sudden, like, six, seven, eight different media outlets are all contacting me before I'm even able to figure out what the church filed. And long story short, yesterday the church filed their response. This is my understanding, I'm not an attorney, but the LDS Church filed its response to our motion to dismiss, and then they did like a little one, one and a half minute sort of presser on, you know, outside church headquarters where the head church PR guy made a little statement and then news outlets covered it that. That evening on. On their show.

Nemo [00:01:58] All right, and so we've got, I think, some clips and we've got some stuff from the Salt Lake trip so we can get their opinions on what's been going on, generally with a little update with the lawsuit.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] Yeah. So take it. Take it. Take over, Nemo. Take us from here.

Nemo [00:02:14] Well, this is how the LDS Church rebrand could end up sinking its legal case against Mormon stories, according to the Salt Lake trip. And I love the little subtitle here, it says, we have this anxiety about making sure that everyone has a good opinion of us, says LDS writer I. It feels a bit like middle school.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] Christine Hagland. We go way, way, way back. So that was fun.

Nemo [00:02:39] That's a voice we'll be hearing shortly in some clips. John, if you want to check me in the next slide, please okay, we will just start listening. Well, we'll see who's involved first. So we had Cara Gagliano, senior attorney with the Electronic Frontier foundation. Eff, did they file an amicus brief?

John Dehlin [00:02:56] Yeah. So a couple weeks ago, both the aclu, the American Civil Liberties Union, and the Electronic Frontier foundation filed amicus. Amicus briefs or amicus briefs in support of me, Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. And so the Trib on Mormon Land podcast interviewed Kara from the EFF and then my friend Christine Hagland as well. And they did a great episode on Mormon Land about it.

Nemo [00:03:25] And we're going to grab some clips from that now if you want to head on to the next slide.

John Dehlin [00:03:30] Okay. Should we play it?

Nemo [00:03:33] Let's play it.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] Okay.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:03:35] So, Kara, your group, we should say, and the ACLU have filed amicus briefs

Video Clip 1 [00:03:40] in support of John Dehlin and Mormon's Stories.

Video Clip 1 [00:03:43] Why do you argue the lawsuit?

Video Clip 1 [00:03:45] The church's lawsuit should be dismissed.

Video Clip 1 [00:03:48] That's right. So in our amicus brief, which, for reference, an amicus brief is where a party that's not in. In the case comes in and submits something to really give a different perspective or additional information to the court. So we don't get into what we think are all of the arguments for dismissal here, but really we focus especially on telling the court, when you look at likelihood of confusion, that second part of the test, you should really be not applying the usual test that you'd see in a trademark case, like between the nursing home and the grocery store, normal kind of commercial trademark issue where you're kind of looking at a bunch of factors, doing a lot of balancing.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:43] You might have experts doing surveys of consumers. Instead, the court should apply this test that other courts in different jurisdictions have used for cases with higher First Amendment interests involved. So where the defendant, their use of the trademark is with what we call an expressive work. So here a podcast, but it might be a book, a TV show, something where someone is putting out artistic expression, political expression, social commentary. You need to have extra protections there.

Video Clip 1 [00:05:24] We advocate for the court to apply this test called the Rogers Test, that's a little simplified, more objective, and we think especially important it's one that's easier for the court to use now, where we are really early in the case and get rid of bad claims at an early stage.

Nemo [00:05:49] Okay,

John Dehlin [00:05:53] what's that?

Nemo [00:05:55] Sorry? Your thoughts there?

John Dehlin [00:05:57] Oh, I. I don't know why Julia picked that exactly. I'd be more interested in your reaction. I. I have to be a little bit careful about what I say about everything.

Nemo [00:06:06] So that's fair. All right.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] Questions or feedback? I'm all ears.

Nemo [00:06:10] I'll take that. Because I think it is interesting that what they're trying to do is very. Is take. It seems what the amicus brief is trying to do is stop broad, sort of broad case law or broad judgments being used in this case and making it very specific to the sort of incidents we're dealing with, where, like you said, it's an expressive work, where it's about social commentary. They're trying to protect, it would seem, by filing this amicus brief, those specific things which I think, for me personally is important. That sounds compelling to not let this just turn into grocery store versus nursing home, but actually really define it as commentator and the target for a better. Lack of. Better word of their commentary. Right. The subject of their commentary. I think that's an important framing from my perspective.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and. And I'll just say a couple thoughts that just come to my mind. Stream of consciousness. You know, what. What else do we call it if it's not Mormon stories? It's Mormon stories was always chosen to be very descriptive. Mormon stories is about stories about Mormons. And if we and Mormons define broadly across the entire community, if we were to call it Mormon stories and we wanted the world to understand what we were talking about, what would we call it? There's no other thing we could really call it that would fit the bill, other than calling it Mormon stories. But that also, you know, like you said, we are critical.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] We do provide commentary and feedback in addition to stories. And so if the church is able to control the use of the term, then it's. It's basically being able to silence and mute any possible critique or criticism or feedback or compliments, you know, all that stuff.

Nemo [00:08:05] And so I'll say, like, personally, for me, the reason this kind of matters is because I operate under the handle Nemo, the Mormon. Right. Which again, is incredibly descriptive. Yeah, right. It's this idea of, well, I'm a member of that group, or at least I was at the time, and I still view myself as a member of that group in many ways. You know, I'm a member of that.

Nemo [00:08:25] That. Yeah. That sociological group, certainly those who have been members of the church, those who are former members of the church but grew up in that way, etc. Etc. Right. That's who I am. And so for people to get a real solid idea of that, this is. Okay. This is a guy who was Mormon or is still Mormon in some way, it's still connected to that sociological entity.

Nemo [00:08:45] And to not be able to identify in that way, to not have a seat at that table because they own a word, to me would feel. It would feel like styming people being able to have a seat at that table, have a role in that discussion about the church.

John Dehlin [00:09:00] Yeah, I think that's really central to what this case is about. This is about much more than just me or Mormon stories. The Open Stories Foundation. It's about whether the LDS Church can control a word that is used not just in podcasts and YouTube channels, but in academic associations and popular culture. Television, blogs, media websites, professional organizations like the Mormon Mental Health Association. So many usages of the term. The. The LDS Church, especially when we'll talk about this once they've abandoned the term, certainly shouldn't be able. Well, to control who uses it.

Guest 1 [00:09:38] Yeah.

Nemo [00:09:39] I would say one final thing that before we go into the next slide, which would be that it could, it could be viewed from an outside perspective, as though in terms of control over that word, first they tried to control it by making it disappear, and that didn't work. So now they may be seeking to control it by litigating to make its use exclusive to their desired uses. Yeah, it could be seen that way from an outside perspective, certainly. Can we have the next slide, please, John?

John Dehlin [00:10:08] All right, next slide.

Nemo [00:10:09] Talk about other people's thoughts as to why the church might be doing this.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] Okay. And this is basically going to be focusing on the eff, the Electronic Frontier Foundation's core argument, which to me is. Is as important as. As the others we've already discussed.

Nemo [00:10:24] Indeed.

Guest [00:10:25] Because in our experience, you know, representing people who are facing trademark threats, a lot of times, even if, you know a trademark claim is really weak, the person who's threatened and will still back down because defending a lawsuit is really expensive. Right? It's expensive. It's a lot of work. It's exhausting, frankly. I do it for a living. But if you're not doing it for a living. Right. You're forced into court. That's a very unappealing prospect for most people. So we really try to make clear to the court why this type of test is important and how even just making the Mormon stories go through a longer, more drawn out process in this lawsuit, to get rid of it would be a harm for free speech, both by punishing them and also by helping scare off other people who might be watching.

Nemo [00:11:32] Yeah, I think that's really important to this. I think we saw this in Fairview, Texas as well, with a different area of the law. We were looking at RUPA laws there, we were looking at zoning and planning, etc, but right from the get go, it was kind of very obvious that the church would be willing to use its large resources to bury a small town, essentially through lawfare, through financial.

Nemo [00:11:54] Through the financial consequences of litigation. And so it's very easy to see what the EFF is saying there in that by forcing people to shoulder the. I think, I think if I could summarize what she was saying, it seems to me what she's saying is by allowing wealthy groups to make claims that may not be that well backed, but will create a financial burden on those they're claiming against, that is as effective as winning the case or silencing them in some other way. Because if you can make them back down by making it too expensive for them to fight, then you win regardless. And the law shouldn't be about who has the most money. It should be about who is legally within the right or the wrong.

John Dehlin [00:12:35] Yeah. And that's why the EFF's amicus brief is so useful to read. It talks about how the average case of this nature to defend the average price or cost to defend a case like this can be as high as a million dollars or more. When I shot this case around, as I talked to different organizations, I got quoted anywhere between 1 and $3 million to defend this case.

John Dehlin [00:13:03] That's just not, you know, that's just not. We're not in a position to fight a case of that nature. And so we were able to secure pro bono attorneys and then eventually raise money. I had to look at the real possibility of either just acquiescing to the church's demands or shutting down the podcast altogether.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] And so, you know, that's unfortunately, through some insurance that we had, plus some pro bono attorneys, plus some other attorneys that have been willing to work for reduced fees, plus the support of people like the ACLU and the effort, we've been able to cobble together what I think is a great team, but not near what the church could afford if they were to use all their resources and power. So I think it's often abusive what organizations do just by sending a cease and desist letter. It's enough to shut someone down or silence them.

Nemo [00:14:05] Yeah. And me seeing this as an outsider from the other side of the pond, kind of looking at. And we'll get to some First Amendment arguments later as well. It seems like quite courts have a difficult time kind of controlling what churches do sometimes even when there's very real harm in the consequences of what they choose to do. We'll get to that with a. With a later story.

Nemo [00:14:27] But I don't think the First Amendment or whatever freedoms of religion are sort of in the Constitution of the United States. I don't think anyone thought that those religions that they're trying to protect with the Constitution would be worth hundreds of billions of dollars and have the ability to kind of bring the sorts of cases with little to no thought of the cost to themselves financially that the church is able to do. And so I think there's a real serious conversation there to be had by some people about, well, how, why, when an organization can act that way and there can't really be any pushback because of First Amendment justifications for what they do or defenses against what they do. I think you've got a bit of an uncontrollable entity there, and I'm sure there's conversations to be had around that.

Church Branding and Legal Strategy

John Dehlin [00:15:16] Yeah.

Nemo [00:15:18] Next slide.

John Dehlin [00:15:21] It's about the church abandoning their church.

Nemo [00:15:23] Yes.

Guest [00:15:24] I think it's also to resume using it. And here, this is honestly one of the clearest cases of that I've ever seen where, you know, the church, over a period of years, systematically was changing the names of, like, all its apps, all its programming, even the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

Nemo [00:15:48] Yeah. I've often said that if you really, I. And I've said this, you know, myself, if John de Lin really wanted to confuse people and make people think that he was officially representing the church, then when the church wholesale abandoned the word Mormon, he would have too. Right. The Mormon Stories podcast would have also shifted. That's often been my kind of point, to rebut that idea by people. But I think what I'm hearing, what she says more fundamentally is this is one of the clearest examples she's seen. What I could take from that is often people don't tell you, hey, we're abandoning this trademark. Guys, look over here. We actively don't want you to use this word that we've got trademarked. Don't use it anymore. Don't say it. It's bad.

Guest 2 [00:16:30] It's.

Nemo [00:16:30] It's the M word. It's, you know, it's a slur to some people's minds. Don't use that word anymore. And yet we're gonna, you know, and yet we're gonna now try and argue that we. We had it all along. That's a very clear cut. I don't think there's any more to say, but if you've got more to say.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] No, that's good. I. I think. Yeah. Let's go to the next slide.

Nemo [00:16:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] And this is about what. What a win could mean for the church.

Nemo [00:17:00] Indeed.

Guest 1 [00:17:03] I. I think that a legal win might actually be a big cultural loss for the church. I think we are in a moment where people, generally, young people in particular, are skeptical of institutions, big institutions, and the being Goliath is not a good look for the church. And I do think it's inevitable that cases that the church tries to bring will very much be framed in David as a David and Goliath story. And the church loses when that happens, when they look like they're just trying to throw around their institutional weight, particularly when it's about silencing critics.

Nemo [00:17:54] Yeah. I would say every time I see someone like Oakes or Bednar or whoever it may be, whatever senior church leader harping on about the need for religious freedom, they kind of put themselves in this David position in the David and Goliath narrative. They're like, oh, no, we need to keep our freedoms. Because. But kind of what I was saying earlier, a lot of people have sympathy for that when they are genuinely David. But when the Mormon Church is in fact, Goliath, when they have all that money, when they have all these lawyers, when they can do these sorts of things, I think the public sympathy runs out quite quickly to feel like, oh, no, we need to protect this organization.

Nemo [00:18:31] Because what's the slippery slope argument to that? Oh, no, if we don't give them their freedoms, they'll just keep winning more lawsuits against people like what? You know, that there's. There's no. That sense of, like, they could just disappear. They could. They're under threat. I think a win would show that it's very obvious they're not, in fact, under threat from people like Mormon stories. Quite the opposite.

John Dehlin [00:18:54] Yeah.

Nemo [00:18:56] So if you're done opining about this, John, we can get on with the news we had planned for the week. But.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] Oh, let's play this clip about it. This is from Christine Haglin comparing the church's actions to middle school behavior.

Nemo [00:19:09] Oh, well, then let's have that.

John Dehlin [00:19:10] Okay.

Guest 1 [00:19:12] Our brains. We think that we always have to make sure that the church is being portrayed in a good light. We have this anxiety about making sure that everyone has a good opinion of us. And it feels a little bit like middle school, I think, where you're just very concerned with your image and you're trying to make sure that your turtleneck matches exactly and everything is just right and, you know, we'll get past It. I think. But I do think that a mature and healthy organization can worry less about its public image and just go about doing good.

Nemo [00:20:02] Yeah, I think that's a pretty accurate description of this. And I think for a church that's so concerned with its public image, I don't understand why they have done such a successful job over the years of just smashing it into pieces. It feels like sometimes, you know, the church had a lot of goodwill. I feel like the pinnacle of the Mormon moment was sort of 2011, 2012, with the I'm a Mormon campaign with all that stuff that had gone on, and then we sort of lose it. Under Nelson would be my read on the situation.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Yeah. And I'll just. You froze up for a second there, Nemo. And I'll just. I'll just say I really appreciated the Tribune's coverage of this. It was. I really appreciate the EFF and the ACLU support, and I really love that Mormon Land episode and my friend Christine Hagland's feedback as well. So I just want to thank everyone and y' all for covering it and for our donors and our viewers.

John Dehlin [00:21:05] I'll just give a quick status of where things are because people were curious as to what really happened yesterday. So the church. I'll just give a really quick summary. The church filed a lawsuit against us. And then what we did is we responded to their lawsuit and gave our side of the story. I think that's the single most important thing to read, if you want to understand this story, is our response to the church's lawsuit. Because what. What I believe their story does is I think the church's lawsuit, in my opinion, is deceptive and is not honest and doesn't represent all that we did in mediation.

John Dehlin [00:21:42] It doesn't represent all we did to try and accommodate and support the church. And I believe it tries to frame me and us in ways that aren't honest. And so then we responded to the church, and you can find that which is our response. And then in addition to our response, we did a countersuit where we're suing the church as well. So there's our response and a countersuit to the church. And then separately from that, we filed what's called a motion to dismiss, which is saying, Judge Shelby, you should just throw out the church's lawsuit altogether. And here's why. So what was filed yesterday was the church's response to our motion to submit.

John Dehlin [00:22:26] And at some point, Judge Shelby now is going to be. We're going to pause the entire lawsuit altogether and just focus on whether or not Judge Shelby decides to accept our motion to dismiss and to throw the case out. That's kind of what's going to happen next, is the next phase, as I understand it. And then if Judge Shelby throws. Throws out their case, it's over. Judge Shelby could decline to throw out their case, or he could partially throw out their case and partially keep it. Once that happens, then we would move into what is kind of the next phase of the lawsuit, which, as I understand it, is discovery, where they start asking us to produce evidence and we start asking them to produce evidence. But this. This argument over the motion to submit could last until October or even later.

Nemo [00:23:22] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] So that's kind of where things are. So the earliest that the actual, you know, discovery phase begins, if the lawsuit proceeds, could be as. As late as October, November. And then the final thing is there. I guess there is, in theory, the possibility that we could settle in the meantime. We don't want to settle. We don't plan on settling. So that's. I think that's very unlikely. But that's kind of where things are. Nemo.

Nemo [00:23:51] Okay, perfect. Thanks for the update. So it's going to take Judge Shelby a few months to deliberate over all this, and.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] And us each argue our sides, and then there'll be a hearing where we are in front of Judge Selby arguing our sides to the motion to. To dismiss.

Nemo [00:24:07] Okay. Yeah, well, we'll keep our ears to the ground for that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] And by the way, where's Megan? Where's Megan?

Nemo [00:24:14] Where is Megan?

John Dehlin [00:24:16] Isn't this her show? Or at least our show?

Nemo [00:24:19] Megan, you're late. Yeah, no, I'm. I guess I'm here on Megan's behalf.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] So Megan's having fun with her family. So we excuse Megan for today.

Nemo [00:24:32] And Nemo, prep the slides today.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] And Nemo. Nemo, we're grateful for you filling in, along with Julia's help, of course. Course.

Nemo [00:24:39] Thank you. All right, so we have the top news stories this week. I think biggest story is some of this stuff that's kind of in the Salt Lake Tribune about the fact that Mormons aren't sticking around. We've already had some coverage of what that looks like, but there's more to the story now. Then we have that temple there in that picture is missing something points in the chat, if you know what it's missing. But all will be revealed.

LDS Church Membership Retention Crisis

Nemo [00:25:04] The Arizona Supreme Court has made a series of judgments over the past few weeks, but one of which was announced in the past couple of days. And I've given my Rather pithy summary of that, but we'll kind of go through what case spawned that and how it relates to the church. Enzyme Peaks Quarter two holdings have just come out, which are very interesting and not quite as simple as they were initially reported. So we'll look into that. And then unfortunately, and rather sadly, there was a shooting at an LDS meeting house in Kearns, Utah this week. And then if we have extra time, we can have a look at what the Rexburg PD has been saying, because that's, that's just gonna be some good fun at the end if we get there.

John Dehlin [00:25:43] And because I took so much of the time you planned talking about the lawsuit, I'm gonna do my best to be as stayed in my commentary today as possible.

Nemo [00:25:51] It feels weird that normally with anyone else, I can chivy them on, I can make them be quiet or just move on or, you know, I can, I can, I can get us in under the two hours. But I'm on John's show with him here next to me. I can't do that.

John Dehlin [00:26:04] I'll behave. I'll behave.

Nemo [00:26:05] He's a wild horse.

John Dehlin [00:26:07] I'll behave.

Nemo [00:26:08] All right, next slide, please. And that there is a joke for any of my British viewers, that is Chris Whitty, who during COVID gave us a daily briefing on PowerPoint presentation. And he always said, next slide, please. And I've been saying that a lot tonight already. So anyway, the actual next slide, please, John. Okay, this is about the retention problem that the Latter Day Saint Church has got. It's not that they're getting up to pee multiple times in the night. It is that they cannot keep hold of members that they convert.

Nemo [00:26:39] And it's. We've been looking for a while. I think you've covered it recently looking at the fact that the church isn't keeping hold even in North America of more than about 50 of its members from childhood. And we'll cover that. We've got some of that information just to refresh people's minds. But the church has been celebrating recently that they have got 17.8 million members and that they've sent out a record number of missionaries and they've got the largest number of convert baptisms in 2025.

Nemo [00:27:09] And that was great. So they're celebrating all this growth, Right? But if we go to the next slide, we'll see that it's not quite growth as the way we would think. Because in that year, 2025, 30 years on from 1995, the church had in 1995, 48, 631 missionaries. And I stole this from someone on Reddit. I didn't do this research. So shout out to that individual who brought this to my attention.

Nemo [00:27:35] But in 70, in 2025, they had 78,596 missionaries. And that was out of a total of 17 million members versus just under 10 million members in 95. Which means that as a percentage of church membership, the amount of missionaries the church has got is actually down. So they're claiming a record number. They're very excited about this record number. But as a percentage of the population members, actually less people are serving missions than they did 30 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:28:03] That's hard to believe, given that now all young women are encouraged to serve missions.

Nemo [00:28:08] Crazy, huh?

John Dehlin [00:28:09] Yeah. So that is a real decline. Yeah. Even if men serving missions is what that is.

Nemo [00:28:17] Because even if the overall number of missionaries climbs, it hasn't climbed in line with the overall number of members the church claims. Both of which are figures that if you try and get into, you probably discover aren't as clear cut as they look on the surface. But even taking the church at face value about the number of members it has as a percentage of those members, there's just less missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:28:36] Wow. Wow, that's a great stat. Thank you for sharing that.

Nemo [00:28:39] I'm glad I caught that. So thanks to the person who pointed that on Reddit. That's essentially if you had kept the rates from 30 years ago, if you'd kept the rates from 1995, you would have 14,600 more missionaries. So anyone who's saying, oh, but there are 80 odd thousand now. Yeah, they're still missing another 12,000 if they were to keep up with the 1995 rate.

Nemo [00:29:00] So the Salt Lake Tribune says it best. Attracting new adherents is one thing, keeping them is another. And retention is something they've been struggling for a while. So Matt Martinich pointed that out in the Mormon Land podcast in spring that retention beyond the year mark is a greater challenge for the church when they get people who have been baptized. So after two years, five years, 10 years, the number of members staying goes down substantially. So the bigger problem for the church is retention in the medium to long term. And then we've got other analyses that show that half of us members raised in the church continue to claim membership as adults.

Nemo [00:29:38] And then that goes down to four in 10 and even fewer Gen Z women. And we've covered the fact that women are leading the church in droves. So, John, what are your thoughts on all this? It's a lot of numbers.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] Yeah, I You know, obviously my very first Mormon Stories episode was my experience as a missionary in Guatemala where, you know, we were baptizing 6, 700 people a month and almost they were never attending church to begin with, let alone it was just low quality developing world, you know, 8, 9, 10 year olds, their parents didn't know they were getting baptized that weren't really converts. And so I've known for, since the late 80s that internationally our retention rates, as you know, in the missionary program were as low as 10% or lower. Obviously the decline in the United States wasn't something even I envisioned 20 or 25 years ago. So anyway, the, the international retention problem I've known for a long time, the domestic one is I think, a result of the Internet over the past 25 years.

Nemo [00:30:46] Yeah, it is new and I think it is something that again, the church can try and fight by saying we've had a record number of baptisms. But again, that's not the whole story is, okay, how well are we keeping hold of those members? And I was, I was actually chatting to a guy called Paul Vanderklee the other day who invited me onto his show to have a conversation. He's a pastor out of Sacramento. And we were talking about who the church converts now versus who they used to. When my grandparents converted, my grandparents converted. A couple of teachers with three kids joined their local congregation.

Nemo [00:31:21] And that's a very different prospect to certainly in the uk, lonely immigrants that the church now converts. So the, the fabric of the, the church and its converts are, I think, fundamentally different in, even now in places like the US they're not converting families the way they did. They're not converting the same types of people.

Nemo [00:31:39] And when you convert with your family, you've got both the church community and your own family structure to keep you going to church year on year. Right. You, as your family have undertaken this thing that you're doing, you've undertaken this lifestyle change. If you're just a single individual who's come to this church for community, maybe you don't find it, maybe you're not as well accepted, you're not well integrated into community, so you just kind of wander off again. So I think there's multiple layers to this issue, but I'd say those are certainly some of the pieces of it.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] The only other thing I'll add is that it's just very clear the LDS Church doesn't want to part with the narrative that it's growing and it just does not want to admit that it's shrinking. We know, it's dying. The LDS Church is dying in Western Europe.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] My sense is it's in terms of real membership growth, it's kind of stagnating in Latin America and the Philippines in the developed world, and it's clearly declining in the United States. But Quentin Cook and other top church leaders just don't want to admit that, because how can it be God's one true church if it's dying to on the vine, especially in Utah. And so you get like a faithful, committed, informed member like Jeff Strong writing a book like Torn, telling the church and the worldwide membership, there's a real problem here. The church is in decline in the United States. Jeff, the. The best stat I have from Jeff is that in the past 25 years, a million members in the United States who were raised Mormon have now left the church.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] That's a huge percentage of the born in the church membership in the United States. But instead, it seems like the church's apologists are all trying to attack Jeff Strong, attack his methodology, attack the book Torn. And it's just such a bad look. You know, I wish the church would just admit that it is declining internationally and domestically. And most importantly, I wish it would just make changes that would make the church more compelling instead of shooting the messenger and faking its statistics to look like it's growing when it's clearly not.

Nemo [00:33:51] Yeah, I think. I think you're right. But I think if we've learned anything from the SEC scandal, which will come up later today as well, is that the church is willing to fake things to appear one way when they actually aren't that way. Like institutionally, they're willing to do that.

John Dehlin [00:34:05] I think our lawsuit. I'm going to be speaking about the church's response to my lawsuit later, and I think the church does that with the. My lawsuit as well.

Nemo [00:34:14] All right, next slide, please. John, this is just a reminder for people that in the Jewish community, 76% is the share of those who remain in their childhood religion as adults. And then all the way down at the bottom, the LDS Church at 54%. So it's barely a majority. And I think the UK was a comm. A canary in the coal mine for this. I think we saw it happening in the UK and Western Europe, particularly with the UK having such strong roots in the church and having some of the oldest congregations in the church and some of the church's oldest buildings. There's a history here. And so when it started declining here, you know, another ward has just closed and they're going to sell off a building. Bath Ward is getting merged and they're losing their building. There's restructurings in the Bristol stake afoot. So.

John Dehlin [00:35:00] And for those who are listening, who can't see the slide, it's. It's Jewish 76%. None. 74%. In other words, the nuns. People raised without a religion have 74% retention. Or parents raising their kids without a religion have 74% retention. Then Protestants 71, Catholics 58. Other is 56. And below other is the LDS Church of 54. So for some reason, we do a worse job retaining our members of the United States than almost anyone else than

Nemo [00:35:31] atheists, which I guess is. It's a different proposition, I suppose, but yeah. All right, let's. Next story. Because there's a temple that is missing something.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] Yeah.

Nemo [00:35:42] Very important. So President Dan Lake jokes. Made his first international trip as president of the church to put a blessing upon the church in the country of Brazil. And he dedicated the Belo Horizonte temple in Brazil. So if I can have the next slide, what's missing, John, do you think? Very important.

John Dehlin [00:36:09] Is it Angel Moroni?

Nemo [00:36:12] He is missing, but he's been missing for a long time, and I don't think anyone's had any arguments about him.

John Dehlin [00:36:17] Is it senior missionaries? I'm being cheeky.

Nemo [00:36:24] It's native grass, John. That's the answer. That grass right there. Non native invasive species.

John Dehlin [00:36:30] Is it married couples taking pictures on the doorstep of the temple? Is that what.

Nemo [00:36:34] It's a massive water feature. That's what's missing. There's no fountain.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] It's a steeple. There's no steeple. I thought all. I thought it was doctrine that all temples have steeples, Nemo.

Nemo [00:36:44] Well, I think if you throw the next slide up, we can get the quote pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] Okay.

Nemo [00:36:48] The height of the steeple is part of our religious observance. According to elder Jonathan Cannon, LDS Aerial Authority 70. That's what he told the people in and around the area of Fairview, Texas, a couple of years ago when he told them they needed to write to the town and get this temple built. You should mention the height of the steeple. And he told those members, the height of steeple is part of our religious

John Dehlin [00:37:11] observance because there were temples there then that had no steeple. Right.

Nemo [00:37:16] Oh, they just completed the Paris temple, like a few years before that was 42ft tall with no steeple. Yeah, the. The temple in. In Cardston in Alberta. No steeple. Hasn't had one for nearly 100 years.

John Dehlin [00:37:30] So Switzerland. Right.

Nemo [00:37:32] Burns got one but we'll get to Austria in a minute. Because not content with kind of, you know, showing their thumb to the people of Fairview, Texas by dedicating a temple with no steeple after saying that it's really important, if you throw the next slide up, will see that five months ago they released the rendering for the temple in Austria. What's missing?

John Dehlin [00:37:56] I'm not going to say Angel Moroni. A steeple steeple.

Nemo [00:37:59] And what's really interesting about this image, for those who are listening, is if you imagine a temple like the original Fairview Temple, or like Preston, if you're familiar with it, or like any of these temples, which is a box and then a steeple. Right. That typical temple design. There were arguments made at the time of the Fairview, Texas temple that architects really work with specific ratios and they can't just drop the height of the steeple. They can't just chop the steeple off and keep the box. What you've got in front of you in, in the form of the temple in Austria is any other temple where the steeple just chopped off. I challenge you to, to not just photoshop a steeple onto that and it. To look like one of those other temples.

John Dehlin [00:38:44] That's hilarious.

Nemo [00:38:45] It's ridiculous, honestly. So my, my point here and what I'd want to get your feedback on, John, before we go to the next slide, about the figures that have been announced around Brazil, is the church is just deliberately, after trying to play the religious persecution victim in Texas and use the, the, the laws that are meant to protect it to kind of beat a town down. They're now just brazenly building temples without the thing that they argued religiously compelled them to need. 172 foot tall steeple. How do they get away with that from like a, from a perspective of the law in America, from the protections that religions have in America, why are they able to just so brazenly discount their own teachings that they put in front of people to say, this is why we need this thing, and then just not to do that and there's no consequence.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] Yeah. I think this goes back to the very founding of the church. Whether it's, you know, Joseph didn't have an affair with Fanny Alger. Joseph didn't practice polygamy and Nauvoo, you know, Mormons weren't involved in the Mountain Meadows massacre.

John Dehlin [00:39:55] You know, we have stopped polygamy in 1890. You know, there's just so, so many instances, you know, the piece on the hat wasn't used by Joseph Smith. He wasn't a treasure digger. The church just has a long, long, long history of honestly saying publicly whatever they need to to achieve their objectives. And maybe it's a human trait, maybe it's a corporate trait. I don't know that if we can say it's a uniquely Mormon thing at all and none of us are perfectly honest.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] But again, in the case of my lawsuit, the church is, in my opinion, completely deceiving the public as to what their behavior has been and what my behavior has been and what their intentions are and what my intentions are. And it's just, it's brazen. It can be very brazen. The church and it. For me, it's always more complicated by the fact that one, they claim to be led by God directly, but also because they hold their members to such a high level, a high standard of honesty, where, you know, they tell us perfect honesty and exact honesty and half truths are evil, and yet they deal in, in whatever dissemination of information they want that, that serves them, including the SEC fraud and, and deceiving the membership about its wealth so that the members will not want to stop paying tithing.

John Dehlin [00:41:17] The church has a real honesty problem. And I think that's bigger. I think that the church's honesty problem is bigger or its dishonesty problem is bigger than its problem with polygamy or truth claims or anything else.

Nemo [00:41:30] Well, because if they didn't have the honesty problem, they would. The polygamy and the truth claims and all those sorts of things wouldn't be problems in of themselves because they would honestly address them. Those who would leave would leave. Those who would stay would stay and the church would be whatever it would be. They, they would just get on with it. Instead, they're engaged in this fight, this perpetual fight over that information that they tried to keep down and then once they couldn't keep down, they're trying to explain away. Yeah, and it must be exhausting for them if you throw that next slide up because I wonder what you make of these numbers.

Nemo [00:42:06] Dalnate jokes said he came to Brazil because he wanted to come to the place that has the second largest population of Latter Day Saints, according to official church statistics. Which is a sentence that always makes me laugh because we have no way of knowing how accurate official church statistics are. But he's claiming that there's nearly 7 million members of the church in the United States and then Brazil has just overtaken by a hundred thousand.

Nemo [00:42:34] Yeah, no, by a thousand. By a thousand. It's just overtaking Mexico to, to the second spot. Do you, what do you think of the idea that Brazil is outpacing Mexico now in overall volume of church members?

John Dehlin [00:42:49] I mean, I don't know what to make with any of the Latin American numbers, because whenever they do a census in Argentina, in Brazil, in Mexico, a fraction of the number of members that the Church claims actually self identify. So I think of all the statistics reported on, membership statistics reported on by the Church, the ones in Latin America are the most problematic. I covered a long, long time ago that just in Chile alone, when Elder Holland was assigned to go to Chile, he closed over 30 stakes because they had expanded based on baptisms. But so many of those baptisms were fraudulent. So, honestly, Nemo, I don't think we can trust any of the Church's statistics in Brazil, Mexico or South or Central America.

Nemo [00:43:38] So maybe he just, maybe Dallas Oaks just took, and I'm just guessing, maybe he took particular delight in visiting a steepleless temple, knowing that it didn't have to have one. And there's going to be no consequences for the fact the Church harped on and said that it needed to have one in Texas. And that sort of hypocrisy can just go unchecked.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] Well, I mean, when you have enough power, money, you can kind of do what you want. I think, unfortunately, that's something we see in the modern era.

Nemo [00:44:11] And what is that scripture that says? It's the nature disposition of all men. As soon as they get a little power, as they see it, they will begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. That's doctrine of governance, right?

John Dehlin [00:44:21] I mean. Yeah.

Guest [00:44:22] Could.

Nemo [00:44:23] Could an argument be made perhaps?

John Dehlin [00:44:26] I mean. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and because the United States has such generous laws for religious institutions in including not only that they're tax deductible, but that their finances can be transparent and they can lobby still and they can gain so much wealth and accrue so much wealth that they can have just outsized influence. It's hard to imagine any, any breaks on the Church's power and authority.

Nemo [00:44:56] Yeah. Whereas that, that is different to what we see in Europe, where the, the example I cite is that I believe it was 2014, the church took their case to have business rates or their taxes essentially on the Preston Temple. They took it all the way to the European Court of Human Rights and lost.

Nemo [00:45:13] They were told by the European Court of Human Rights, no, you don't get a full tax deduction. You still get an 80% deduction, but you don't get the full tax deduction on a building when it isn't a building of public religious worship. If you have to have a recommend to enter, you don't get the full tax deduction. It's as simple as that. And the Church fought it all the way up to the European Court of Human Rights and lost because there are parts of the world where they don't have just no checks on their power. So it can be different in other parts of the world.

John Dehlin [00:45:44] Someday the tide may turn, but we're not close to that right now in the United States, especially right now. I mean, the Supreme Court heavily favored towards protecting religions. And that takes us to the next story.

Arizona Clergy Reporting and Child Abuse Policies

Nemo [00:45:56] Indeed.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] Go ahead, Nemo.

Nemo [00:45:58] Beautiful segue, John. Thank you very much. We are looking at the Arizona Supreme Court. They ruled that clergy members aren't required to report abuse learned in confession. Now, this stems from the case of Paul Adams that was reported on a couple of years ago by Mike Resendes in the Associated Press. Essentially, he was able to abuse his children for seven years because he had reported to. Well, two bishops became aware of it, but he'd made a confession to one bishop, certainly that he was abusing his children. And the bishop called the church's helpline but did not contact the police. Now, there was an argument made.

Nemo [00:46:35] Paul Adams killed himself while he was in custody. And so he wasn't able to face charges in that sense. But there was a case brought by the children to sit against the church to say the church should have contacted the police. The Church has been relying on clergy penitent privilege laws in Arizona and a sort of thing that gets around the idea of mandatory reporting. And so that's gone all the way up to the Supreme Court. And if you chuck the next slide up, John, we can. We can read what they said. Do you want to read that for me?

John Dehlin [00:47:07] The Arizona Supreme Court has ruled clergy members are not required to report child abuse if they learn about it during a religious confession. The decision protects what church leaders call the seal of the confessional and comes after an ongoing case involving the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and allegations that two bishops failed to report abuse.

Nemo [00:47:32] So the seal of the confessional, does that not sound like incredibly Catholic language to you?

John Dehlin [00:47:36] It does.

Nemo [00:47:37] Does that not sound entirely unfamiliar to any form of actual Mormon?

John Dehlin [00:47:41] Never heard those terms before?

Nemo [00:47:42] Yeah, as far as I'm aware, as someone who was a lifelong member of the church and has sat through many bishops interviews, as I'm sure you have, John, I was never told that this was under any kind of seal of confessional. In fact, we'll get to it in a minute, but it's not confidential at all. Could you check the next slide up?

John Dehlin [00:48:00] Yep.

Nemo [00:48:02] So this was a little bit earlier. This is July 30th. High Court says churches, not judges, define a confession when it comes to reporting child abuse. I think that's part of what's going on here. If you throw the next slide up, we have essentially the First Amendment prohibiting fact finders from inquiring into a clergy member's application of his particular religious doctrine.

Nemo [00:48:25] So in determining whether reporting should be withheld if reason were necessary, because that's the language of the way, the reason why you wouldn't report. And that was Vice Chief Justice John R. Lopez iv. He wrote that in the Court's unanimous opinion, the First Amendment requires courts to exercise substantial deference to a religious institution's own doctrinal conception of confession or confidential communication. So before we speak to that, John, can you just throw the next two slides up and I'll just rattle through. Through them real quick and then we'll have a chat because.

Nemo [00:48:56] Well, I think the Church gets to decide what's confidential or not. And they have decided in their own handbook that child abuse is not a confidential matter. Lawyers should be called. Not the police, but lawyers. It says these. In some countries, the Church has established a confidential Abuse helpline to assist stake presidents and bishops. These leaders should promptly call the helpline about every situation in which a person may have been abused or is at risk of being abused. They should also call it if they become aware of a member viewing, purchasing, or distributing child pornography. And then you've got the numbers for the helplines there.

Nemo [00:49:37] So this isn't a confidential matter. If you drop the slide for a second, would you not agree, John? It's not a confidential matter at all. They're saying no. If you learn of these things, call someone. Specifically call our lawyers on the helpline.

John Dehlin [00:49:50] Yeah, no, I think. I think your analysis makes sense, and I think. Go ahead.

Nemo [00:49:56] But I was gonna say the ruling by the Supreme Court is that even if you can see that they have to defer to the Church and let the Church just claim that it's confidential anyway, even if there's demonstrable behavior that shows that it's not confidential, because they're going to call a helpline. And at that point, why can't they call the bishop, call the police? Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] Yeah.

Nemo [00:50:18] Your thoughts before I. I sum that up?

John Dehlin [00:50:21] No, I mean, I just. I just think if we've learned anything over the past few decades, is that the Church, unfortunately, the LDS Church will do anything to protect its good name and its wealth. And what that often means is protecting the perpetrators at the expense of victims present and future. In other words, they don't want it known who the abusers are in the membership because then they'll be admitting that there's abuse and they'll be admitting that there's abusers and that won't be good for, you know, their assets, for their reputation, for membership stability. So for all those reasons, they're gonna, they're gonna always protect abusers at the expense of present and future victims.

Nemo [00:51:09] But again, in the same way that the church now being Goliath instead of David isn't going to play well in the court of public opinion. According to the, the Mormon. Do you think this really protects the church's good name in the long run? Do you think that this image of, well, when we get to decide because of the first Amendment whether we should contact the police or not, we decide that our lawyers should be contacted and not the police, is that really going to help their good name?

John Dehlin [00:51:39] I mean it's, this is actually, you know, there's that question of like, does, does the Mormon church do more harm than good in the world? It's really hard to, I don't think anybody's really smart enough to be able to know for sure. Lots of people have strong opinions. Obviously faithful members are going to say strongly yes.

John Dehlin [00:51:57] Anti ex Mormons who are really angry at the church are going to say no. Who really knows what's really going to help the church's reputation in the long run? I don't think any of us can know. Like, you know, I remember when the Catholic Church, when the movie spotlight came out to speak of Michael Rosendez. When the movie spotlight came out, I thought, well, this is the beginning of the end of the Catholic Church. And of course the Catholic Church is having a resurgence right now in the United States.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] And so, and of course the Catholic Church survived the inquisitions and, and bloody reigns of terror for centuries and millennia. So the truth is, the truth is Nemo religion is incredibly resilient and the Mormon Church is so wealthy and so powerful that even if they had a spotlight, spotlight level scandal, which they haven't yet had, but even if they did, chances are over time people will forget and the church could rebound. And just like the Catholic Church is rebounding today.

John Dehlin [00:52:56] So I tend, I think I'm going to be different than you, Nemo. I tend to think that the LDS Church tends to know what's best for them in the long run. And they tend to do that thing. And in this case, I think protecting abusers at the expense of current and future victims probably is in the church's current and future best interest. If that means money and power and wealth and butts in seats, I think they probably are making the smartest decision for them.

Nemo [00:53:30] Calculations.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] Just not for children.

Nemo [00:53:33] No.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] And not for victims.

Nemo [00:53:36] No. But though they are clearly outweighed in this calculus by the other factors and considerations, I think. Okay, no, I think that's. What do you think?

John Dehlin [00:53:46] Yeah,

Nemo [00:53:49] I think I, I, I bat back and forth whether I think the church is that calculating or not, because there's a very calculated view of that, where they go, well, okay, we can weather this. We know we can weather this lawsuit with John. We can weather whatever it is and we will still retain the majority of members that we need to retain in order to keep the amount of tiding coming in and blah, blah, blah. Right. There's that very calculated version or there's the very emotional reaction that also leads to the same result, which is we cannot admit we're wrong because we are led by God.

Nemo [00:54:22] And so if we cannot have the public thinking that we get stuff wrong just as simple, that's that emotional reaction of, no, no, we are right. We, we are correct in however we chose to act. We won't listen to arguments to the contrary because we are convicted that we are led by God and this is how God would have us behave.

Nemo [00:54:43] They both lead to the same outcome in this instance. But I, I bandy back and forth between whether it's the gray men in suits calculating the longevity of the church or whether it's the egos of the men who claim to speak for God that do the decision making.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] Yeah, I'm not totally sure.

Nemo [00:54:58] No, it's probably a mix.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] What I do think is that they're really good at looking out after what they care about most, which I think is their wealth, their power, their authority, and butts and seats maybe come last. I think the church has become so wealthy it doesn't really need its membership and it doesn't really need its tithing. But it's not a good look if the church is worth a trillion dollars and has 10 members. So they are going to fight to keep as many members as they can, which might mean some deception intentionally, but I think they're always going to go with the money and the power and the reputation over the membership.

Nemo [00:55:41] I think that's fair.

John Dehlin [00:55:42] Yeah.

Nemo [00:55:43] Yeah. We have the next slide then, John. All right, let's have a so this is how I've summed it up, the ruling. So this isn't a quote from the Church, but this is how I'd imagine if they were being candid, they may explain it. Even if our doctrine contains no overt clergy penitent privilege concept, even if it is in fact within our own rules that certain things said between clergy and penitent are to be discussed outside the confines of clergy and penitent with church lawyers, we as a church still get to decide if we think we should call the police or not. Because First Amendment.

Nemo [00:56:15] And if you throw the next slide up, I think it's even simpler. You could, you could boil it down. We think bishops should call our lawyers, not the police. And you can't tell us to change that. I think that's just, that's the fundamental position of the Church and that's been backed up by the Supreme Court ruling, is we can't tell you whether you should call the police or not. We can't tell you how to behave.

Nemo [00:56:35] And I think there's a problem when a multi hundred billion dollar organization, because it's also a religion, can't be compelled to behave better, to behave better in the better interests of victims, in the better interests of children because they are a religion. Yeah, that I, I think that's a dangerous cocktail that we're looking at personally.

John Dehlin [00:57:02] It's dangerous for children and it's dangerous for victims. For sure.

Nemo [00:57:06] It's great for the church.

John Dehlin [00:57:10] So, yeah, I mean if I'm trying to be devil's advocate, I think the church, I think the calculus the brethren make is yes, we care about them. I don't think they want child abuse to happen. I don't think they want to protect abusers. I think they, if they could snap their finger, wave their wand, all abuse in the church would disappear. There'd never be child abuse. I just think what they feel is if there's no church, then the members don't have what they need most to be happy and healthy. So they're going to go, they're going to protect the 99 at the expense of the 1 every time. Because in their view the church is what protects the 99 or the 50 or the 45 of the hundred or the 33 or the 20. I mean at this point they're sort of saying protect the 20, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's at the 80.

Nemo [00:58:05] But then who's looking out for the one?

John Dehlin [00:58:08] Yeah. Not, not, not the church. Not the church. So that's, yeah, that, that, that teaching's Kind of gone by the wayside, if it ever existed at all. Yeah.

Nemo [00:58:19] All right, well that, those are my thoughts on, on that case. We can move on to Enzyme Peaks.

Church Finances and SEC Disclosure

John Dehlin [00:58:26] Let's do it.

Nemo [00:58:27] And we all remember this, right? Late 2019, Wall Street Journal comes out and says the Mormon church has amassed $100 billion and it was the best kept secret in the financial world, in the investment world. And then it's no longer a secret anymore.

Nemo [00:58:41] And we all know about it and we're all very aware of how it goes down, that the church has got $100 billion. So if we throw the next slide up, we see that after some wrangling with the sec, they are filing finally, as of about that time, they're filing consolidated 13F forms. So for those who don't know, the 13F forms are the filings that they need to give about Enzyme Peak Advisors, which is where the Church amassed some of this $100 billion. This is the amount that's sitting on the stock market. It was around 30 billion at the time.

Nemo [00:59:22] Enzyme Peak is where they keep that. And Enzyme Peak needs to file a form with the securities and Exchange Commission to say here's how much we have under management. Because if they don't do that, that amount of money on the stock market, that amount of position, when it changes and shifts and moves, people need to know where that is consolidated because otherwise that can shift markets quite significantly. So it's important that there's a level of transparency about who owns what, who has got what, where.

Nemo [00:59:52] And as we know, famously the SEC find the church and Ensign Peak $5 million combined because they tried to hide who had control over what and where. And so Mormonish posted this, I believe it was saying that the Church is just in Q2, increased their portfolio in enzyme peak by $7 billion up to a total of 60 billion.

Nemo [01:00:18] And that was on the 14th of August. If we go to the next slide, we see that by the 18th. Oh no. Yeah, by the 18th of August. So just a couple of days ago it's down to 53. They filed an amendment.

Nemo [01:00:34] So yeah, there you go. You can see 7 billion has just gone somewhere. I've. Have you ever lost $7 billion, John? Have you ever like just kind of put it down and not knowing where you put it?

John Dehlin [01:00:45] I mean, only a couple times.

Nemo [01:00:47] I've never had $7 billion go missing.

John Dehlin [01:00:50] Wow.

Nemo [01:00:52] Yeah, that's a huge. It looks as though they may not have actually grown at all by the looks of that. Now if there's any finance heads in the Comments who want to dig into this further and let us know what's going on here with these amendments and whatnot, and how an amendment could, you know, how they could file 60 billion and then file an amendment to say, actually, no, it's only 53, please let us know.

Nemo [01:01:14] But then the next slide is just a more detailed look. This is what that 13F information table. So this is what the information table that goes with 13F looks like. Because we've spent so much time talking about these 13Fs, when we've talked about the SEC, I thought it would be interesting for the audience to see what this looks like and those who are listening.

Nemo [01:01:33] What you're looking at is what you would expect really, from a really boring accountancy perspective. It's just numbers on a page. It's loads of numbers and little acronyms and stuff that you probably meant to find very boring so that rich people can keep making money because you'll just not pay attention.

Nemo [01:01:50] That's what's on screen right now. So if we go to the next slide, this is the SEC. We remember that in 2023 they were charged. And the way they misstated the filings. The reason I've looped this in is because I think it's really interesting that we talked about how the Church hid who had control over what money.

Nemo [01:02:14] If you throw the next slide up, we can see what they would have written. That column there, column six says soul. And it's about who has authorization or who has discretion is the exact word investment discretion over these assets. So the assets are labeled out, you know, how much they've got, what company it's in, blah, blah, blah. And then there's this column six. And it's. There's an option there to say, no, it's managed by someone else or whatever. But this is all saying that all these enzyme peak has sole discretion over how they're invested and whether they're sold or bought or whatever.

Nemo [01:02:52] If you throw the next slide, I'll make it really obvious. There it is. And so they would have, for all these shell companies, filed 13 Fs that looked just like what you saw on screen. And they will have said sold. They will have written the word soul. They would have filled that box and said soul when that wasn't true. And I think that's just a really good black and white example for that story that we had back in 2023, showing you this is how the Church would have written something that wasn't true. And it is really that simple. Your thoughts on the church and then money. John. Because I've ranted.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] No, I mean, I'm, I'll never, I'll say, you know, David Nielsen's one of the legends of the, you know, 20th to 21st century of the church to be that whistleblower out of Ensign Peak that helped blow the lid off the church's massive wealth.

John Dehlin [01:03:46] And I, I, I think, you know, it's hard to think of, I mean, other child abuse for me is probably always going to be, be the biggest mortal sin of the Mormon Church. But, but this idea of hoarding billions in wealth, not using it for charitable purposes purposes, intentionally hiding it in fraudulent shell companies and justifying their hiding of it literally with the justification that members won't pay tithing if they know how wealthy the church is. And then when the money gets used, it's to bail out of, you know, a commercial shopping mall or a mismanaged insurance company is one of the great scandals of the, of the entire history of the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [01:04:45] And funnily, you know, amusingly, there's so many members today, and this is just the way religions work. It's not just Mormons. You tell Mormons today about the vast wealth of the church, they're like, I love that the church is wealthy. I'll give it more of my money. You know, belief is so resilient.

John Dehlin [01:05:05] And frankly, the members love the church so much because it clearly provides value to them that they don't mind hearing all this stuff. They're like, how can I get more money?

Nemo [01:05:16] Yeah, there's that common response like, make it a trillion. I see that a lot. Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:21] And that's okay. Everyone values organizations they're a part of differently. And who are we to say, Nemo, that members shouldn't value the church with 20% of their income or 30% of their income, you know, or, you know, I. How many retired Latter Day Saints serve multiple senior missions just because they love the church so much? They love the church more than spending time with their own grandkids.

Nemo [01:05:50] They do.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] And you know, that's right or wrong. That's just what they value.

Nemo [01:05:55] I mean, biblically speaking, we're able to say probably what members should or shouldn't be be paying. A plug for the LDS discussion series there. We are currently looking at tithing and the history of tithing. And the next episode will be about how we're probably paying more tithing than we ought to be paying. But that to one side, if members value that, then, yeah, they can. They're free to express that. I think the problem for me definitely comes with hiding it from the members so that they'll keep paying. If they want to keep paying regardless of seeing how much they have, then fine. But it's about informed consent for me. It's about people knowing what the score is, what the situation is, and then making an informed decision.

John Dehlin [01:06:39] I agree. Let me, let me share a couple. We got some chat. So let me share a couple. We got hopeful 3338 saying thanks John and Nemo for today's show. Thank you for the super chat. Hopeful 3,338 we have love you deeply. Saying a new temple in Hamburg, Germany. HA0 local support for a new German Masonic hall. What do you. You're. You're a Francophile. Wait, is it Germanophile? What are they called?

Nemo [01:07:04] Yeah, Germanophile, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:07:06] Yeah, you're. You love Germany. What do you have to say about that comment?

Nemo [01:07:10] I'm not, I'm not aware that there was a new one for Hamburg, Germany. The one that we showed was Vienna in Austria, another German speaking country. Depending whether you're pro anxious or not, I guess they're all the same. But Austria is a distinct country from Germany and yeah, so I, I don't know. I don't think there would be massive support for a new temple in Germany now though I know if we want to talk about church shrinkage, one of the major wards in Berlin a couple years ago disappeared. So yeah, they're not unaffected by all this.

John Dehlin [01:07:42] All right, Michelle, your Bell 17 writes great way to spend a Friday never mo. But thanks for the Joseph Smith podcast. I just finished the book and companion podcast. And Michelle, your bell 17 I I am happy to announce that just this week I I interviewed John Turner for part one of my at least 10 plus part series on Brigham Young. So John Turner is soon coming back to Mormon stories.

Nemo [01:08:08] Nice.

John Dehlin [01:08:10] The Brigham Young series is going to be epic. And so check out both the Joseph Smith podcast historically along with LDS discussions along with the the Matt Harris Second Class Saints series. Look for the Brigham Young series to come soon with John Turner.

Nemo [01:08:30] And if you need an all but gold classic book, then you can get the audio version of no Man Knows My History read by our very own John de Lynn. Wherever you get your audiobooks, which is

John Dehlin [01:08:40] brand new and we're going to be announcing an initiative with that as well. I'm going to help you get it for cheap. But yeah, yeah, no Man Knows My History is now available with yours truly narrating and that was the most grueling, tedious Difficult experience of my modern life. Okay. Last thing and honor. It's one of the greatest honors of my life. But it is not fun and it is not lucrative to do an audiobook if you're me. Fun with 7511 says, Keep promoting the First Amendment. Thank you. Thank you for. For the support. All right, Nemo, back to you.

Nemo [01:09:13] Yeah, I think we're. We're coming on to our last story, potentially.

John Dehlin [01:09:16] Hey, how's our pace? Am I. Am I droning on and ranting?

Nemo [01:09:21] An hour and 10. We're. We're absolutely setting speed records. It is. I. Yeah, I will take credit for it. This is what I do. Brevity.

John Dehlin [01:09:33] I'm. I'm taking credit for my self restraint.

Nemo [01:09:37] Yes. Thank you, John. I can see it written large on your face. Holding it back.

John Dehlin [01:09:44] See the veins bulging. All right, Nemo, what's next?

Nemo [01:09:49] So this is. I mean, yeah, let's bring the tone down. Let's drop the levity for a second.

Guest [01:09:53] No, wait, wait.

John Dehlin [01:09:53] The missing variable is Megan. It must be Megan that's causing our.

Nemo [01:09:57] Megan. Yes, we can. We won't mention the fact that whenever Megan and I do this show, it's over an hour and a half, but.

John Dehlin [01:10:05] Hey, wait a minute. All right, Nemo, what's next?

Shooting at an LDS Funeral in Utah

Guest [01:10:08] Story.

Nemo [01:10:09] Right, so twin teen brothers were both struck in a Kern's church shooting. One was killed and the other was hospitalized, according to the family. So this has been reported in the Salt LA Tribune. This happened on Monday, I believe. There was a shooting at a funeral in Kern's, Utah, which is on the west side. On the west side of the i15.

John Dehlin [01:10:28] Yeah.

Nemo [01:10:30] And it was at. It was at a funeral for someone who was shot at a gas station. And it's. I mean, throw the next slide up. We'll hear what the Salt Lake Tribune has to say. So do you want to read that for me?

John Dehlin [01:10:45] John Vilasoni or Sony Angelao. I don't know how to pronounce that. Was killed at the scene. Relatives say he was an innocent onlooker shot during a confrontation. According to an online fundraiser posted by the Family, his brother Vita, or Vita Angela was also struck and is currently hospitalized with critical injuries. The page states. And I have to say this is not the first shooting at a funeral.

Nemo [01:11:12] No, we'll get to that.

John Dehlin [01:11:13] Go ahead, Nemo, keep going.

Nemo [01:11:15] So it was. It's also. I don't think I've got the. If you throw the next slide up. We'll just check if I have got this. Yeah. So a man was arrested after having his 17 year old son a gun in the deadly funeral shooting outside the meeting house.

Nemo [01:11:28] According to the police. If you throw the next slide. Officers arrested a 45 year old man on suspicion of murder and discharging a deadly weapon after investigators say he handed a gun to his 17 year old son who then fired it during the fight.

Nemo [01:11:42] Police did not say the father fired the gun. And so what we have here, the situation as I understand it from reading all these articles is there was an altercation between these two lads that were just named and another 17 year old. That 17 year old was passed a gun by his father, it is alleged, and shot both of the lads that he was having an altercation with. They managed to wrestle the gun off him, shot him in return.

Nemo [01:12:10] He, it is reported, was put in a car with his father and sped away. The police had to chase them down and get him to hospital where he is receiving treatment and is not in a good way. And one of those brothers is dead and the other is also being treated and it's not in a good way. And I think the next slide is our very own Megan because we couldn't go an episode without having her here.

John Dehlin [01:12:34] Yay.

Nemo [01:12:35] He explains essentially what's going on and how this isn't the first time this has happened this year.

John Dehlin [01:12:40] And this is Megan from Generally Unquotable Channel.

Nemo [01:12:44] Megan, I had to do research this episode. Please come back.

John Dehlin [01:12:48] Yeah, come back, Megan.

Guest 2 [01:12:51] We've got some breaking news coming out of Utah. Police responded to a shooting during a funeral at a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints near 5015 south and 4660 west in Kerns. One person was killed and two others were critically injured. Police say they were actually contacted before the shooting because people attending the funeral were concerned there could be trouble. Officers were already at the church when they heard the gunshots. The building has been identified in multiple sources as the Salt Lake Central Tongan Stake center of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And this is unfortunately very similar to another shooting earlier this year.

Guest 2 [01:13:32] On January 7, two people were killed and six others injured during a funeral at an LDS meeting house on Redwood Road in Salt Lake City. That building houses two Tongan wards. Federal prosecutors later charged two alleged members of the Tongan Crip gang with firearm offenses connected to that shooting. At this point, police have not said that the two shootings are connected and we don't yet know whether today's shooting has any gang connected connection. But within about seven months, Utah has now experienced two deadly shootings during Funerals at LDS Tongan congregations.

Nemo [01:14:12] Okay, so your thoughts on that, John?

John Dehlin [01:14:15] Yeah, I mean, it's kind of.

Guest 2 [01:14:17] We've got some breaking news coming.

John Dehlin [01:14:18] Oh, sorry. I had a friend once say, and this is going to be just his bias, when I, when I moved here, I moved to Salt Lake City around 1997.

Nemo [01:14:30] That was the year I was born.

John Dehlin [01:14:31] Oh, yeah, yeah. And I went to that. That's awesome. Nemo. And I, I went to work for the LDS Church as a consultant. And I had a friend named Scott who was into real estate. And Scott Glauser told me more east, more good. That was his view of how, how real estate works in, in and along the Wasatch front. So it's, it's often been viewed that kind of the west side of the valley. Magna Kerns, you know, West Valley, those are, you know, for Salt Lake Valley. The rougher parts of Salt Lake Valley and of course the nicer parts are on the east side, like Holiday and Cottonwood Heights and the avenues and, and Bountiful and those types of towns.

John Dehlin [01:15:14] So, so, you know, and it's, it's not fair. These types of stereotypes are not fair, but that's kind of generally how it's often perceived. And yeah, there's a perception that over the past decade or two, gang violence has just steadily increased on the west side in Salt Lake Valley. And it's, it's sad to see it get to the point where even LDS funerals are starting to be unsafe for, for gang violence and, and other types of violence at funerals. I just hope police can get a handle on the violence on the west side.

Nemo [01:15:51] Yeah, me too. I, I, as a Brit, feel somewhat unqualified to discuss gun violence things. I'll probably just stay out of it.

John Dehlin [01:15:59] But tell us how gun, handgun laws are in the uk.

Nemo [01:16:03] Remind us someone shot some kids in a school once and then they took everyone's guns away. And that's about the size of it.

John Dehlin [01:16:09] Yeah. And you're still, you're still a thriving. Are you a democracy? What would you call yourself? Yeah.

Nemo [01:16:16] Not had a, not had a mass shooting sense, particularly occasionally someone will go rogue with a shotgun, but they do less damage, I think.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] Yeah, I think we have a mass shooting weekly, at least in the United States these days.

Nemo [01:16:28] Wow. Yeah, that's something.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] Yeah, it's just normal mass shootings. Normal. But you don't even have handgun deaths, let alone mass shootings. You don't even have handgun deaths.

Nemo [01:16:40] In the UK we have, like I said, the occasional person gets hold of a shotgun that shouldn't.

John Dehlin [01:16:45] Yeah.

Nemo [01:16:46] And then.

John Dehlin [01:16:47] Yeah, Queen. Queen used to hunt, right? The queen used to hunt.

Nemo [01:16:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the king probably still does. I don't know. The aristocracy. You know, there's that. There's that film Hot Fuzz, if you've seen it, that comedy film. And there's a line. He goes out to the countryside from the city and they say to him, everyone and their mums is packing around here. Which means everyone and their mum's got a weapon around here. And it's. It's true, out in the countryside, the British populace are better armed than a lot of people think. But it doesn't tend to show itself as kind of gun violence, by and large.

John Dehlin [01:17:22] Yeah. And I don't want our viewers and listeners to think I'm anti second amendment, per se, but. But there's something wrong with our laws. I can say that.

Nemo [01:17:32] Well, that was shooting a cast. If you throw the next slide up, John.

John Dehlin [01:17:35] Oh, I'll just say one quick viewer said Tongan Jedi writes. As a Tongan, I'm sad that gang violence mars our culture here.

Nemo [01:17:43] Me too.

John Dehlin [01:17:43] Thank you for being willing to share that. Tongan Jedi. And I'm not in any way placing the gang violence or the gun violence on any particular group.

Nemo [01:17:53] No. But I think it's sad when any group has their culture marred by that sort of. Yeah, sort of reporting. So the church had something to say about the last time it happened in Redwood Road. They came out with this statement. John, read that for us. John, We.

John Dehlin [01:18:11] This is Sam Penrod, spokesman for the church. Quote, we are aware of a serious incident that occurred outside a church meeting House at 660 North Redwood Road in Salt Lake City tonight as a memorial service was being held in this chapel. This is for the previous one. Right. The church is cooperating with law enforcement and is grateful for the efforts of first responders. Until more information is available, all questions about this incident are being directed to the Salt Lake City Police Department. We extend prayers for all who have been impacted by this tragedy and express deep concern that any sacred space intended for worship should be subjected to violence of any kind.

Nemo [01:18:51] I think that's a pretty decent statement.

John Dehlin [01:18:53] Yeah.

Nemo [01:18:54] I don't see anything wrong with it. I think it's worth noting, if you throw the next slide up, that the church has not yet made a statement regarding this week's shooting. And they made one more quickly last time. So I don't know whether they just feel they don't need to say anything again or what, but it's just worth Noting they've not yet said anything about it.

John Dehlin [01:19:12] At some point, things become so prevalent that you don't want to keep making statements about it. So.

Nemo [01:19:18] So perhaps that's. That's what's going on here. Okay, we have. We are. We are done with our main stories. At 1 hour 20, we have our fun bonus story.

Bonus Story, Viewer Comments, and Wrap-Up

John Dehlin [01:19:28] All right, let's roll it.

Nemo [01:19:30] Which is from Rexburg Police Department. So they put this on Facebook a few days ago. Rexburg, Idaho, being the home of BYU Idaho, if I'm not totally mistaken. And they have said things that we can enforce are the Idaho code and Rexburg municipal ordinances. Things we cannot enforce are HOA regulations, BYUI honor code, apartment complex rules, Facebook group rules, three things you don't like, and your verbal agreement with your roommate about who has to do the dishes.

John Dehlin [01:20:02] So that's the Rexburg Police Department having a sense of humor.

Guest [01:20:06] Yes.

Nemo [01:20:06] Which is. You know, I don't. I don't know. I've always heard that BYUI and that area is very, very Mormon and very sometimes a bit stick in the mudish. So it's nice to see whoever's got control of their social media platforms having a bit of fun with it.

John Dehlin [01:20:22] Absolutely.

Nemo [01:20:23] So that was the news. John, come in.

John Dehlin [01:20:26] Hey, my good friend Brett. Brett Hutchings. Hey, Brett. Brett writes. John, please buy Nemo some Jolly Rogers or Dodgers. Jammie Dodgers.

Nemo [01:20:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:35] Or whatever the hell they're called. I owe him for helping me find your podcast. So, Nemo, you recruited viewers for Mormon stories. How. How good does that feel?

Nemo [01:20:48] That's unreal. Just, like, genuinely, for a moment, think about how long John's been doing this, and then I'm somehow the gateway drug to this. What has happened in my life?

John Dehlin [01:20:58] Well, Brett, Brett's my basketball friend, my golfing buddy, and I miss you, Brett. Brett also writes. As usual, you guys are knocking it out of the park. Please bring w. And play some hoops. Oh, that's my son. And play some hoops with us in a couple of weeks. That would be fun.

Nemo [01:21:14] I'm not invited to play hoops.

John Dehlin [01:21:15] Brad, you don't live here yet, Nemo, so get your booty here. Nemo.

Nemo [01:21:19] Yeah. Do you not think I can play hoops? Maybe I'll. Then I would love to see hoops.

John Dehlin [01:21:25] Nemo. Also, Jane Francis writes very chill John this week. Last week, I thought he must have had an octuple espresso shot latte. Caffeinated, John.

Nemo [01:21:35] Did we get caffeinated John last week?

John Dehlin [01:21:38] Oh, we did. So I'm working. Well, today I Got a lot of feedback that people liked it. I got some feedback like, John, you're ruining your reputation and scaring people away. So anyway, I decided to be chill today, partly because I don't, I don't want. When we're talking about the lawsuit, I need to be careful. So part of why I'm tame today is because we started out by talking about the lawsuit and I don't want to become unhinged and say something ill advised. We just had another super chat roll in Patrick Brady, who we hope to have Mormons on Mormon stories soon. Patrick Brady writes John and Julie is applauding behind the scenes.

John Dehlin [01:22:18] Patrick Brady writes John and Nemo, two of my heroes in the Mormon faith journey. You both changed my life in meaningful ways. Thank you for your courage and your voices, Nemo. The name Patrick Brady isn't probably known to you yet. I'm going to call it the Patrick Brady Interview if it happens, stands to be one of the most shocking and interesting and powerful interviews in the entire history of the Mormon Stories catalog because of the headline and because of his story. So I can't wait.

Nemo [01:22:53] If you need a co host, John, just let me know.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] I think, I think if we have a co host, it might need to be Julie on this one, but we'll see.

Nemo [01:22:59] Yeah, Julia, arm wrestle for it later.

John Dehlin [01:23:03] Let me say really quickly that I, I want to call people's attention to the MormonNews.com website. I put that up. I'm gonna go ahead and throw that up in the, on the browser and I'll just talk really, really quickly about what it is because I just want to remind people about it.

Nemo [01:23:25] This is John's new favorite toy, everyone. While he's looking for this, this is his new favorite thing. We get it in Slack often. He's like, hey, guys, check this out. I think it's really cool. I think it's a good way of bringing this sort of stuff we talk about on this show to everyone's attention. How was that for some filler, John, while you got that on the browser?

John Dehlin [01:23:43] Oh, I really owe you. Okay, so here is A photo of MormonNews.com it's basically a couple things. One is it's a news aggregator, so it's got the Salt Lake Tribune's headline. So the, the leading story for the day is, is the story about the church and its lawsuit with me. That's not because we have told the algorithm to give preference to me or Mormon stories. We've literally told it not to do that. That just happens to be the biggest news story of the day.

John Dehlin [01:24:18] And so you can see the latest in Mormon news. We've got the aggregator aggregating around several major topics. So LDS church is a topic. Rebecca Biblioteca had me do one on temples. We've got one Jon Joseph Smith, one on polygamy.

John Dehlin [01:24:37] So the, the Joseph Smith section has Mormon discussion, examines Joseph Smith's self story from Zion's camp. So you can get the latest news on Joseph Smith on point polygamy. There it is. FLDS children resist new lives with parents after leaving church.

John Dehlin [01:24:54] We've got politics. Governor Cox voices privacy concerns over flock cameras. Calls for review. We've got sports. Kohler commits to BYU basketball. Former BYU starter Waylon Lapuaho enters the transfer portal. We've got influencers. ABC shelves Taylor Frankie Paul's bachelorette season amid allegations Whitney Levitt declares she's done with secret lives of Mormon wives. We've got a section on child abuse entertainment. Book of Mormon musical returns to UIs after fire cancellations. We've got international. We've got business and we've even got a crime section in business. Newskin announces layoffs and financial troubles.

John Dehlin [01:25:46] Inside Peak gained 7 billion but trailed S&P 500 Mormon newscast reports and of course crime. So that's, that's, that's one thing that this website is, is it's an aggregator. And then on the right, it's also the home for this exact series. So there. What do you think, Nemo? Whose mug, whose mugs do you see right there in the top, right?

Nemo [01:26:14] My own mug right there.

John Dehlin [01:26:16] That's how on top of the ball this aggregator is. As soon as this episode is added to the Mormon News playlist, it gets aggregated to the aggregator. And so it includes not only today's episode, but the past episodes with Megan, etc. And so please check out, everybody, please check out the MormonNews.com website. You can donate to this series. We do pay Nemo and Megan and myself and Julia and Brooklyn for their involvement. So if you want to support the Mormon News show, you can click on the donate link and you can become a monthly donor to the Mormon News, you know, podcast series or you can support the website itself. And that's how this whole thing becomes sustainable.

Nemo [01:27:12] So I need a website, don't I, John?

John Dehlin [01:27:14] What's that?

Nemo [01:27:15] I need a website.

John Dehlin [01:27:16] I've been telling you that forever. Why don't you, why don't you have nemothemormon.com Nemo, I don't know.

Nemo [01:27:22] I know. Let's Find out.

John Dehlin [01:27:24] I can help you. I can help you talk about it.

Nemo [01:27:27] That would be great.

John Dehlin [01:27:28] Anyway, Please check out themormannews.com we'd love to.

Guest 2 [01:27:31] We'd to love.

John Dehlin [01:27:31] We would love your feedback. So you can email us@admin MormonNews.com and tell us what features you'd like us to add. I'm using Claude to design and maintain this website and so literally the sky's the limit as to features that you all can include. So please let us know how you'd want us to enhance or extend. End MormonNews.com you know, right now you can. You can like or dislike episodes. You can forward them to your friends and family. You can search into the archives and find past stories. But you can recommend news sections or other social media features. Please give us your feedback at admin Mormon news.com All right, Nemo, back to you. Is that it? Are you frozen?

Nemo [01:28:31] Yeah, no, no, no, I'm still here. That's it. Okay. I will be having better Internet as of next week, people.

John Dehlin [01:28:39] That would be amazing.

Nemo [01:28:40] And why is coming to this house while your.

John Dehlin [01:28:43] While your video image remains grainy? I'll read Aerosmith's comment. It's offensive to call us Mormon. We reject this term. Also, if you use the term Mormon, you're confusing people that might think we are Mormon.

Nemo [01:28:58] And isn't that just the nub of it, Aerosmith? Isn't that just it?

John Dehlin [01:29:03] I think referring to the lawsuit.

Nemo [01:29:05] Indeed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:07] All right, Nemo, any final words for today?

Nemo [01:29:10] No, other than thank you very much, John for having me letting me stay involved in the the Mormon News Show. I really do enjoy it.

John Dehlin [01:29:18] Really quick for those who are.

Nemo [01:29:19] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:20] Learning about you for the first time.

Nemo [01:29:22] I am Nemo the Mormon. You can find me wherever you get social media, wherever you consume social media. Apart from MySpace. I'm not on MySpace, but apart from that, it is Nemo the Mormon everywhere.

John Dehlin [01:29:34] Yeah. And you can support Nemo just like you can support us. I want to thank Ladder Daily Digest for always reminding people to share, like and subscribe both to this episode and this series and this channel and Antono the Mormon. Also you can subscribe and like and share and follow Megan at generally in quotable across all the social medias. Julia also has analyzing Mormonism that we like to promote. You can always check out Radio Free Mormon Bill Real the Mormon Newscast Mormonish Alyssa Grenfell. We love you know also Girls Camp. We love all the different creators in this space. Please check them all out and support them as as you will. Yeah. What's that, Emo?

Nemo [01:30:25] The rising tide lifts all ships, right?

John Dehlin [01:30:27] Yeah. Yeah. Next week, is it going to be. Is Megan back next week?

Nemo [01:30:31] I think so.

John Dehlin [01:30:32] Okay. It'll be either you and Megan or me and Megan or some type of combination. And we look forward to having Megan back. As as much as we love you, Nemo, we also are looking forward to having Megan back.

Nemo [01:30:45] I understand.

John Dehlin [01:30:48] All right, Nemo, thanks for your prep today. Thanks for all you're doing. Thanks to all our commenters on the chat. Thanks to Julia for all her work and helping out with the slides. And Brooklyn, they do all the stuff. Post production vaccines. Thanks to all the donors. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. What's your sign off for the Mormon News podcast, Nemo?

Nemo [01:31:10] Oh, I. I think I steal the. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. And maybe I say we'll see you next week when the church has done something else crazy.

John Dehlin [01:31:19] All right, check out the LDS discussion series as well. Take care, everyone, and we'll see you all again soon. On another episode of Mormon Stories, Nemo the Mormon Generally Unquotable, Analyzing Mormonism and the Mormon News podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.