Welcome, Introductions, and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello everyone, and welcome to the Mormon News Podcast, brought to you by Mormon Stories Podcast and Generally Unquotable. I am John Dehlin, host of Mormon Stories Podcast, and I'm here with

Meggan Hayes [00:00:14] Meggan Hayes of Generally Unquotable. Good morning everybody.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] Meggan, thanks for preparing another week's dive or review of the Mormon News. You always do such great work. The the the teaser for today, November 13, 2026 is LDS lawyer says that bishops are the problem. That's the teaser. But as always, we've got we're going to be covering several stories today. I'll just remind everybody really quickly that the Mormon News Podcast is available@mormonnews.com it's on YouTube and Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Wherever you get your podcasts, you can find it as its own standalone podcast or integrated into the Mormon Stories Podcast feed. Please like and subscribe Please also like and subscribe to Generally Unquotable as well.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] And the final thing that I'll say before we jump into it is we are looking to obtain the level of donations that would allow us to pay Meggan what we all know she is worth. And the way that you can support Meggan is by going to mormonnews.com clicking on the Donate button to Becoming a Monthly Donor. I'm happy to report that we are now up to 86 monthly subscribers out of the tens of thousands who listen to. Of course, there are many of you who already donate through Mormon Stories Podcast. If that's if that's what you are able to contribute in a month, then don't change a thing.

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John Dehlin [00:02:46] And we already have our first super chat. Paisley278 says my favorite thing on the Internet, y'. All, Please become monthly donors. Thank you paisley278 for your super chat. Anyone else who wants to make sure their comment or question gets noticed in the live stream, please know that a Super chat is the best way to make that happen. All right, enough nonsense. That was three minutes, Meggan, Take it away. What stories? Anything you want to say before we begin? How's life? Everything good?

Meggan Hayes [00:03:18] Yeah, life's amazing. We are fully solar at our house now.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] Whoa.

Meggan Hayes [00:03:23] Right. Which is super exciting. Trying to become sustainable as a household. We compost, we have chickens, we grow our own food.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] And now your solar. Solar run. I love that.

Meggan Hayes [00:03:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:37] Trying to do it. Do you have EVs?

Meggan Hayes [00:03:39] Not yet. Yeah, we're working on that. We have old cars.

John Dehlin [00:03:43] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:03:44] That we don't take on long distance road trips.

John Dehlin [00:03:47] As I understand it, keeping old cars, unless they're like massive polluters is actually better than buying a new car. That might be more economical. That's what I've heard.

Meggan Hayes [00:03:59] We do keep our cars until they die.

John Dehlin [00:04:01] So do I. All right, well, congrats on the solar. It's great to have you join us. Should we. Should we dive into this week's news stories?

Meggan Hayes [00:04:12] Yes. So much to talk about today. We're going to talk about the LDS helpline, which some people call a hotline, but I've heard that Mormons don't like it called a hotline. Kate Locke, who used to work for Curtin McConkey, has done some videos. We're going to discuss those. Then we're going to talk about the Paul's, Savannah and Hayden Paul and how they talk a lot about pornography. Then we're going to go to a new study out of Utah that shows how women fare in university leadership.

Meggan Hayes [00:04:47] Next up will be James Jones, who went on the Mormon Land podcast this week and said some really amazing and interesting things about the church. And then we'll go to BYU where they're doing some cancer research that I think is fascinating. And then just a couple of smaller stories at the end. The Nava Rose, somebody who thrifted, maybe thrifted a garment top. And then a tiny little mention about the new season of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

John Dehlin [00:05:14] Orange County. Is that. Is it the Orange county flavor or edition?

Meggan Hayes [00:05:19] Yes, it came out last night and I have, as far as I know I have. I haven't watched it yet. So, no, there will be no spoilers.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] I subscribe to a Google News alert under the term Mormon, and I'm sure you do, too, Meggan. And one thing I've noticed in the modern era is those Mormon Google alerts are just all secret lies of Mormon wives. It's just like the whole thing is links to who's divorcing who, who's in Rehab and who's not? Who's out of rehab, you know?

Meggan Hayes [00:05:51] Yeah, yeah. It used to be like, when I first started subscribing to Mormon News through a Google subscription, it was all Cody, Wyoming, temple stuff because it was at the very beginning of that fiasco. And, yeah, now it's all Secret lives of Mormon wives.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] Well, let's try and make it the Mormon News podcast, shall we?

Meggan Hayes [00:06:11] Yes. You know, I do see my name on there sometimes, and it still kind of shocks me every time.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] It's fun. That's fun. All right, well, let's dig in. What's our first story, Meggan?

Kate Locke and the LDS Child Abuse Helpline

Meggan Hayes [00:06:21] So this is about Kate Locke. Here's a little bio. Her professional background. She is a Utah attorney who says she spent about 13 years in Washington, D.C. mostly working on Capitol Hill, later returned to Utah and worked for Curtin McConkey, the law firm that represents the LDS Church. She is a former Curtin McConkey attorney. So she no longer works there. She worked there for approximately 18 months in 2019 and 2020, and it included work on the LDS Abuse Helpline. The current relevance of this is that it this month In November of 2026, Keystone, which is a pro LDS podcast, interviewed her where she argued the helpline is victim centered and widely misunderstood.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] Okay, well, you know, we know that Curt McConkey is for all intents and purposes, the Lord's law firm. So if she's worked there even for a short amount of time, we know that she's been rubbing elbows and we know that Curt McConkey is behind a lot of what's gone on with the child abuse hotline, but also more importantly, child abuse payouts and settlements and communications with bishops, historically largely to discourage Mormon Church leaders from reporting abuse to police authorities. That's. That's my understanding. But take it away, Meggan, and tell me, you know what, what we should learn today.

Meggan Hayes [00:07:51] Yeah, let's go to the clip. She's going to try and refute some of these claims. So let's go to the first clip.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] Okay. All right.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:07:57] There have been a few former local leaders of the church who have come out and said, I reported abuse to the helpline and they told me not to report it to police. And they felt terrible about that because they felt like it put victims in more danger. Does the helpline ever tell leaders not to report abuse to police when they legally can report abuse to police?

Video Clip 1 [00:08:25] No. Whatever is behind that decision doesn't come into our consideration. It would be like there's no legal impediment to reporting. And then Report it.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:38] So what do you do with these stories that, that have come out from these former leaders who have made these claims?

Video Clip 1 [00:08:45] I'd be really curious to know more of the details because again, it's really easy to do a two sentence short answer, right? That makes a really complex case seem really simple. Like I would want to know more information.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:07] And before I could like comment because I just don't believe it. I think is like my short answer because again, I think back to like how I was trained on the helpline. I think back to my experiences with priesthood leaders. I think back to other cases that I was involved in where like, I wasn't the attorney who answered the initial call, but it got assigned to me.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:33] And so I just, I don't believe it. I think it's really more common than we like to think of. Like what you heard the attorney say on the helpline was we're not going to report, when really the complete sentence was we're not going to report yet. We need you to get this other information because the abuse hotline is going to need us to have this information of this for it to be of any actionable value to law enforcement. My instincts tell me when I hear stories like that that the bishop had follow up that he was supposed to do and didn't do it or didn't understand the follow up he was supposed to do.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:19] And so all he heard was, great, one less thing off my to do list. I don't have to report this. Or the follow up got really hard and got really complicated because then the victim changed their mind, the victim's mom changed their mind. And they're actually, we don't want to come forward.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:37] And then let's say worst case scenario, like the abuse escalates and then it gets in the public and then they're like, bishop, you knew about this, why didn't you do anything? I didn't do that. It's the church's fault. They told me not to report it. Like, that would be my instinct.

John Dehlin [00:10:55] Whoa. There is so much there. But Meggan, I'm going to let you go first.

Meggan Hayes [00:11:01] Yeah, I know. I was going to warn everyone that the clips are a little bit long just because I didn't want to be taking what she was saying out of context. Because it is, to me, it came off as just so dismissive and awful to any bishop who has been in that situation.

Meggan Hayes [00:11:16] Her sitting there as one, one lawyer who worked for them for 18 months and taking her personal experiences and saying, this has been everybody's experience. And I just think bishops were either lazy, you know, they just, oh, they didn't want to follow up. They didn't want to, you know, get it got messy and they just didn't want to deal with it. Which honestly would be their volunteers.

Meggan Hayes [00:11:39] Okay. They're not trained in this. They have day jobs. So if a bishop doesn't follow up, I understand that, but for her to say that's why they're blaming the Church is because a bishop just didn't do his volunteer position that he's not trained for.

Meggan Hayes [00:11:57] It's so incredibly dismissive and awful and really just throwing bishops under the bus. Because what she doesn't want to do, I assume, is throw the Church under the bus or acknowledge that the bishops could be telling the truth.

Meggan Hayes [00:12:15] It made me feel so sickened for all of these bishops who have put their reputations on the line, who've put their lives on the line, who have, you know, spent thousands of hours away from their families to do a favor for the Church to be thrown under the bus by one lawyer who maybe doesn't want to admit that the Church's abuse protocols really aren't that great.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] Yeah. So before I respond, do you have a slide where you're summarizing your concerns with her response? Is that the next slide?

Meggan Hayes [00:12:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] Okay, let's, let's let you clear that and then I'll, I'll add.

Meggan Hayes [00:12:55] Okay, so she's talking about her first hand accounts versus bishop's firsthand accounts. Okay. And they are coming into conflict.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] So it's anecdotal, just to start out with, she's, she's providing anecdotal evidence.

Meggan Hayes [00:13:07] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Which in fairness, so is Bo Euler, for example. Right,

Meggan Hayes [00:13:11] right, right. And, and those accounts are coming into conflict. So she is appealing to personal experience. She assumes her training and experiences reflect how the helpline operated in every case, which maybe she doesn't, but that's how it's coming across. She is essentially becoming the only one who will speak out about this. So she is, to us, representing the information that we're getting from the Church. She then has dismissal without investigation. Says she doesn't believe former bishops without reviewing their specific allegations. So instead of reviewing them, which, I mean, maybe she did while she was working there, she probably wouldn't have access to that. Now she's saying her, her go to is that she just doesn't believe that that happened.

Meggan Hayes [00:13:55] She has speculative alternative explanations. She suggests bishops misunderstood instructions or failed to follow up without demonstrating that that actually happened. And she's shifting the Responsibility. She hypothesizes mistakes by bishops rather than independently examining the attorney's advice. She has contrary documentary evidence.

Meggan Hayes [00:14:17] Oh, so she doesn't. This is something else. There is evidence that is contrary to what she is saying. Because we have the Paul Adams case out of Bisbee, Arizona, where we have court records and testimony that concern advice not to report. So overall, Kate says she just doesn't believe the former bishops. But we have an actual case where a bishop said he was told not not report. The attorney acknowledged advising against reporting and children remained in danger. So why are we treating Kate's relatively brief experience as more authoritative than actual documented records?

John Dehlin [00:14:58] Yeah, absolutely. Those are all fair criticisms. I'll add my own slant before we talk about, I guess, the Adams case. To me, it always begins at the top, just like with Mormon apologists. Why is John Gee or Kerry Muhlstein or Daniel Peterson or Jacob Hansen or Jasmine rapely speaking for the church when it should be prophets, seers, revelators, special witnesses of Christ? I think apologists would say, well, that's not their job. Their job is to testify of Christ and to build faith.

John Dehlin [00:15:39] Not to, I don't know, speak for the church's accountability and the harm of its members. I don't know. I don't totally get or believe that argument. But my question always is, you know, if the fish rots, it rots usually from the head.

John Dehlin [00:15:56] Why is the church allowing unofficial arm's length secretly compensated apologists to speak for them when they've got 300 plus billion dollar billion in assets, entire law firms under their control, and tens of thousands of employees, I'm sure many of which could speak on the record officially about not only what has happened, but what is currently happening?

John Dehlin [00:16:29] Why in the freak are we, are we listening to Kate Locke at all when it's an issue so incredibly important and systemically problematic? Is that fair, Meggan? Or am I, am I being unfair?

Meggan Hayes [00:16:44] No, I. That is one of the criticisms that I also have. Why is it always someone who is 10 points removed from the top leaders who comes out to say this? And I think part of that is because they don't want to say something on the record, Right? This can assuage the people who are already conditioned to believe whatever comes from the church, and then it just gives them something to push back on when people like us have fair criticisms that we want answered. And so now apologists are going to use. Well, Kate Locke said. But Kate Locke is not giving us any official records. She's not going on the record. None of that's happening.

John Dehlin [00:17:31] Yeah. Like the, the latest. She worked for Curtin McConkey was six years ago. Like. Yeah. And we know from the David Jordan appearance on this very YouTube channel that you're discussing, the Church can put its lead attorneys out in the public to discuss cases if it wants to, but it doesn't choose to. So I think it's cowardly and irresponsible for the church. And, and they put a woman forth, too. I'm sure that's not accidental. I'm sure they put a woman in front. I'm not accidentally. To make it nicer, to make it more believable, to make it more friendly, they put a formal employee there to keep an arm's length distance, so they're not really accountable.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] And then if you'll, as you highlighted, she basically appeals to emotion and opinion. And even though, and this is classic apologetics, the Church will pick an Egyptologist or a scriptorian or, you know, a classicist or whatever to fill the role of a scholarly apologist.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] But then they'll, they'll argue from a place of emotion or from faith, which isn't what the scholarly enterprise is supposed to be, you know, all about. And attorneys, if she, if the Church is going to put forward an attorney to be their spokesperson, she should be, you know, she should be arguing from a position of evidence and of facts and of truth, not from a position of, I don't believe doesn't feel right to me.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] It doesn't jive with my, you know, impressions that, that just that that does. That feels like classic Mormon apologetics. Argues from emotion, argues arguments from faith, but not honoring the profession that the spokesperson apologist actually is supposed to be representing. I don't like that they're blaming the victims, the bishops. And I agree with you. I don't like that they're not taking any responsibility.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] Clearly there is a systemic problem, whether it's the Boy Scouts or all the Michael Rosendez stuff and the Timothy Koznoff stuff and all the endless accounts that we're getting every week and covering on the Mormon news podcast, clearly there's a systemic problem. And there's not even a hint that so far from what I've heard of accountability, which is awful, and yeah, to blame the bishops. Oh, that they're too busy, they forgot, they dropped the ball and now they're blaming the Church. It's. That part is gross to me. Yeah,

Meggan Hayes [00:20:32] yeah. If I, if I was a man in the church and I was asked to be bishop, if I had all of this Information and understood it, I would be very wary because they're like, bishops get thrown under the bus all the time and they're, they take on a major amount of liability when they agree to become a bishop. And I don't think I ever understood that. I mean, I was a relief study president two times and I never, the word liability never occurred to me.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] And as someone who's facing a lawsuit at the hands of the Church, staring down the barrel of a multimillion dollar lawsuit is incredibly intimidating. Bishops don't realize that that's what they're staring down every time they accept the calling to be a bishop. And the conflict of interest there is that, yes, the church will step up and provide its army of lawyers to defend a bishop, but not if the bishop doesn't play ball and do exactly what the Church tells the bishop to do. If the bishop were to decide to act in integrity like Beau Euler and speak his truth and to say publicly what really

John Dehlin [00:21:45] happened behind the scenes, I'm sure the bishop would face a withdrawal of legal support from the church and, or a public maligning or smearing or even excommunication, which is, you know, which is exactly the type of thing that, you know, Beau or others likely face or faced when they decide to speak truth to power.

Meggan Hayes [00:22:10] Yeah. And I don't. That's, that's not in the handbook. Bishops don't read about that when they accept the calling.

John Dehlin [00:22:15] Yeah, yeah. So it's a real conflict of interest. Okay, should we go to the next clip?

Meggan Hayes [00:22:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] All right.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:22:21] And so if we're saying it's a bishop and it's the perpetrator, and that's how we learned about it. It's like, generally speaking, it's a perpetrator who is like, you can't report this and I don't give you my permission. But these abuse helplines are trained to ask these types of questions of like, where did you get this information? A bishop, you know, a perpetrator told a bishop, and part of what they ask is, does the bishop have permission to disclose? Like, does the perpetrator know that this report is being made? Because again, the law treats clergy differently. And if it's a privileged piece of information, law enforcement can't act on it.

Video Clip 2 [00:23:05] They're like, we just received information that's protected by law that we can't act on. And so we hinder the investigation at that point. But like, how do you explain that in a two second soundbite? And so then it becomes really easy to say the Church is hiding abuse. It's not easy to explain all these nuances. Like, it takes a little bit of sophistication to understand how the law treats clergy. It takes a little bit of sophistication to understand protected information and why the law holds that sacred. And so if you break the law and say, like, I'm going to report this anyway, it doesn't mean that law enforcement can still act on it.

Video Clip 2 [00:23:52] They are still bound by the law. And so our goal, again is to get every case reported. Right. Like that is our number one. That's every training, every call, like, how are we going to get this to law enforcement? And most of them are straightforward,

Video Clip 2 [00:24:11] but not just reported, but reported in a way that action will be able to be taken by law enforcement.

Video Clip 2 [00:24:17] Correct. But there's a judge here in Utah, Paul Cassell, who wrote a law review article about the clergy penitent privilege that I found really interesting. He made the case that states have found this, like, necessary purpose in it, that there are cases where, like, a perpetrator is not going to go to anyone other than their clergy person, and it's better that somebody knows, then nobody knows.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] Okay, Meggan, is the slide. Should we go to the next slide or do you have initial reactions first?

Meggan Hayes [00:24:59] Well, we can go to the next slide because I spent a ton of time digging into what the legal requirements are for reporting because I wanted to understand it. Yeah. So if you go to the next slide, it says a lot of stuff that we. So clergy penitent privilege, when that happens, there are three separate questions. Is the clergy required to report? Is the clergy permitted to report? And can the police and the courts use that report? And that's basically what Kate is talking about as far as I understood in that last clip. But I want everyone to look at the line at the bottom, as far as I know. And I double checked this with a friend I have who is an attorney and who understands this better than I do. Zero states in the United States, zero prohibit good faith reporting.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] What do you mean by that? What do you mean by

Meggan Hayes [00:25:52] that? Yeah, what I heard was Kate was trying to say, well, if a bishop hears a report in a confessional, there might be a law that prohibits them from reporting for whatever reason. And it's hard because it's different in every state. And to go read through the minutiae of the law and. But zero states prohibit good faith reporting. Meaning if a bishop, as far as I understand, if a bishop hears an abuse confession and he thinks someone is in danger, he does not need to call Curtin, McConkey. He does not get to. He does not need to get permission from the person who confessed. He can make a good faith report saying, I think that a child is in danger, I think that a woman is in danger, and as far as I understand, zero states prohibit that.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] Oh, without giving details, you're saying

Meggan Hayes [00:26:48] so

John Dehlin [00:26:49] they can. If there are clergy penitent laws, privileged laws where you can't necessarily provide details. You're saying that even a bishop in all the states could at least notify the equivalent of DCFS or Child Protective Services and say, I believe a child's in danger?

Meggan Hayes [00:27:12] I believe so, yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] That's fascinating. I've never heard that before. If viewers or listeners disagree

Meggan Hayes [00:27:18] or

John Dehlin [00:27:18] have other information, we'd love to hear it. What else did you want to say about her arguments?

Clergy-Penitent Privilege and Mandatory Reporting Debate

Meggan Hayes [00:27:26] Well, I just thought that was the bottom line, because for her, it seems to be getting mixed up in a lot of the minutia where it's like, well, is the clergy required to report? Are they a mandated reporter? Which is different in every state. Are they permitted to. Which by law is different in every state. So it's like trying to do a breakdown of all of that can get really complicated.

Meggan Hayes [00:27:49] And if bishops feel like it's complicated, then, yeah, they're going to call the hotline. Because now they're like, well, I heard this abuse thing. I am a gardener in my day job, so I don't really know what to do with this information.

Meggan Hayes [00:28:05] So I'm going to call the hotline. They're going to tell me how confusing it is. I'm going to hopefully let them handle. It can just get so complicated when it really doesn't need to be. If you're an adult or a teenager or. And you think someone is in danger, you genuinely think someone is in danger, then report can be that simple.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] I will. I agree. Great points, Meggan. And I'm going to add, I, you know, having been involved in several lawsuits, I agree that it's very difficult to navigate and understand and to explain the nuances and technicalities of legal stuff. Even every day someone asks me about the. The church's trademark and copyright lawsuit against me, and I'm five words in, trying to answer their inquiry. And their eyes start glazing over because it's like, okay, the motion to dismiss trial is, you know, hearing is going to be on the 24th, but then, you know, automatically you're losing them. So anyway, I sympathize with that. Having said that, I do think she's being.

John Dehlin [00:29:17] I do think she's being deceptive in the following way when she talks about the clergy penitent privilege and whether or not bishops have a duty to report or are able to able to report based on clergy penitent privilege laws. What she's not acknowledging is that in many instances, it's the Mormon Church itself that was behind lobbying for and implementing those clergy penitent laws for the very purpose of protecting the Church, to keep these cases under wraps, to keep them from being reported to police and to keep them from harming the reputation of the Church, and also to help protect the Church from liability and lawsuits.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] And so not only could the Church have fought and or never advocated for clergy penitent laws, just deciding. If Jesus says that it's better that you be a millstone be hung around your neck and you be dragged to the bottom of the ocean, if the Prince of Peace, if the love one another, forgive everyone guy said that it's better to have your a millstone chained around your neck so that you're drugged to the bottom of the lake.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] If that's what he said, then clearly he would prioritize the protection of children over all else. And if that's the case, I don't think Jesus would lobby state legislatures for clergy penitent privileges. That made it more difficult for police officers and law enforcement to find out about abuse happening in a home and to protect the children. There's no way Jesus would support that. But what this lawyer is not admitting is that it's the very Mormon Church, as I understand it, that was behind erecting these clergy penitent laws in Idaho, in Utah, in Arizona, in Nevada, that keep bishops, Mormon bishops from even needing to or being able to report, in addition, this claim that their goal is to get every case reported upon and acted upon.

John Dehlin [00:32:00] I would love to see the evidence of that because I have personally interacted with thousands of people who told me that the impression that they got as bishops or as victims or as family member victims, or was that the Church did not want this reported to the police.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] Thousands of accounts, thousands. So if that's their goal, they completely suck at that goal. Or if that's a new goal, have they atoned for the lack of that goal in the past and have they apologized for how they behaved in the past? And can they give us evidence that they're acting accordingly now? Because my understanding is, is that Bo Euler, Bishop Bo Euler, when he talked about his experience as a bishop, where he felt like he was encouraged not to report.

John Dehlin [00:33:02] My understanding is that Beau was threatened with excommunication just for telling that story. Which flies in the face of this claim that the Church wants every possible case to be reported to the police. Then why threaten Bo Oiler with excommunication? Why excommunicate Sam Young?

John Dehlin [00:33:21] It makes no sense. And why have a protocol for decades where it. Where it appears as though every question on the protocol was oriented towards assessing the Church's liability and protecting the Church's liability from awareness and from legal. Legal action or police involvement. Now, Meggan, please push back if I'm being overly hyperbolic or unfair.

Meggan Hayes [00:33:52] I wish I could push back, but the fact that there is. We're talking about a lawyer. We're talking about a law firm. We're. We're not talking about the Church having bishops call dcfs or police or even advocates or therapists or trauma informed people like they are told to call a law firm. That's so telling to me. And there's a lawyer here defending. I mean, what is a lawyer's job? If Kate Locke worked for the Church, when she did work for the Church, what was her job? She was a lawyer. It was to protect the interests of the Church. That's literally what she got paid to do. And so for her to sit there and say, that's not what we were doing. We were. She was not a lawyer for the victim. She was not a lawyer for the perpetrator. She was a lawyer for the Church

John Dehlin [00:34:55] and an apologist. Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:34:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] Really quickly, let me thank Exmo Ramo for the Super Chat donation and the they write. Why doesn't every bishop spend five minutes of research to determine if they are a mandatory reporter in their state? I mean, my answer is they're told to call the hotline. And my impression is more often than not, if not always, they leave the hotline without feeling motivated or instructed that they should call the police somehow, whatever that conversation is. Historically, the legion of bishops who have handled abuse cases almost always leave with the impression that they should not call or without the motivation to call. And they're certainly not instructed to call in on almost any instances I've ever heard of.

Meggan Hayes [00:35:50] Yeah, you should read Beau's comment from the comments. Bishop Bo is in the comments today.

John Dehlin [00:35:54] Oh, hey, Bishop. We love Bishop Bowe. Bishop Bo writes, my stake president literally said, quote, reporting things that should not have been reported. Close quote. So he's talking about his stake president who summoned him to a disciplinary council to be excommunicated. Right. For telling his authentic story as a Mormon bishop interacting with the Curt McConkie hotline managing an abuse case. Once he told that story on Soft White Underbelly, he's summoned to a disciplinary council to be excommunicated. And the stake president tells him he is threatened with excommunication for quote, reporting things that should not have been reported regarding the abuse hotline. And then Bo continues, this has to be covered from the bishops and families that have experienced it.

Meggan Hayes [00:36:53] Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing, like how many people can one lawyer slash church apologist refute? Kate Locke goes on one podcast and then we are supposed to discount thousands of firsthand experiences,

John Dehlin [00:37:12] including bishops who love the church and want the church to just be its best self, which is Bo Euler.

Meggan Hayes [00:37:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Paul Euler doesn't hate the church. He loves the church and he wants just less abuse, less abuse in the church. And for that he's being threatened with excommunication. Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:37:31] Yeah. I mean that's a pattern as well. We talk almost every week about Sam Young.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:37:37] You want the church to be healthy and that means making it look like it's not healthy. Right now that becomes a problem.

John Dehlin [00:37:44] Yeah. Really quickly. A couple other comments. Super Chats RT247 says start a GoFundMe for billboards to be erected. I think there should be like a floodlit billboard

Meggan Hayes [00:37:57] kit

John Dehlin [00:37:58] or something equivalent. We love our outer snarkness supporter, listener, viewer. She writes with the super chat. Thank you. When I told my TBM family, my true believing Mormon family, the hotline went to lawyers. They said I was lying and spreading ex Mormon hate. And the church doesn't even, doesn't even deny that that's, that that's the case. And we love Michelle Yerbel, 17, who I met at the RFM celebration. She writes, and thanks for the super chat. Love spending Fridays with this Mormon stories family. I also encourage you all to become a donor. The bigger the donations and support, the farther these stories and messages can spread. Amen. Michelle Yerbel. I hope we get a chance to visit more in the future. Our time together was too short. Okay, should we go to the next clip?

Meggan Hayes [00:38:50] Yeah. So the next clip is. So when Kate was speaking, she referred to another person who had done this report and said, you know, clergy penitent privilege actually helps victims because at least somebody knows. Right? And that's something we've heard before after not this last fair conference, but the previous one. Previous 1 In 2025, Jasmine Rapely came out with that videos saying something very similar like clergy penitent privilege actually helps victims. And so I got the Response from Julie de Azevedo that her refuting those claims. And I thought it would be a good time to look at that.

Bishop Testimony and Church Helpline Protocol

John Dehlin [00:39:31] All right, let's roll the clip.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [00:39:33] I had to respond to this video. It's so damaging.

Video Clip 3 [00:39:37] I know this is going to sound crazy, but when bishops are not required to report essay, more victims actually get help.

Video Clip 3 [00:39:44] It sounds crazy because it is crazy. How can not reporting a crime against a child to authorities be in the best interest of the victim?

Video Clip 3 [00:39:55] It sounds backwards. You would think that more mandatory reporting laws would lead to more essay being reported. But what actually happens is that in states where clergy are mandated reporters, the system actually gets overwhelmed with false reports.

Video Clip 3 [00:40:09] Yes, there are more false reports, but guess what? There are more legitimate reports too. There are just more reports overall. And the percent of false reports is very small compared to the percentage of legitimate reports.

Video Clip 3 [00:40:25] Turns out that when a bishop's office is 100% confidential, victims and even perpetrators are more likely to open up. And when they trust that that conversation's safe, bishops have a better chance of persuading that person to self report and get help before it's too late.

Video Clip 3 [00:40:40] It is highly unlikely that the perpetrator is going to self report. Guess what's more likely? That the bishop is friends with the perpetrator because he's a ward member. He may have served with him, he may golf with him, he may work with him. So the bishop is more likely to be associated with the perpetrator than the child victim. So that's a huge problem with the system that sets it up to protect perpetrators more than protecting victims.

Video Clip 3 [00:41:07] I learned this at the fair conference from a lawyer who works directly on the church's abuse cases and showed that clergy penitent privilege, it's not about propping up institutions. It is always about protecting children.

Video Clip 3 [00:41:18] Wait a second. The attorney's job is to prop up the institution. That's what the attorney is getting paid for. So how can you say it's about protecting children? They're getting paid to protect the institution. So I would not trust an attorney who works for the church as an unbiased source for information on what is best for children. What is best for victims?

John Dehlin [00:41:42] Oh, my gosh. And did Jasmine rapidly end up pulling down that video?

Meggan Hayes [00:41:47] Yes. And then she put out what she called an apology. I think she really tried, but the apology was also really hard to listen to. There are a bunch of therapists who came out and spoke about it in depth. Like Julie de Azevedo.

John Dehlin [00:42:02] Oh, my gosh. And this idea that both she and the other attorney we just listened to are trying to. The propaganda they're trying to spread that everything Kurt McConkey's ever done has only been to protect the children is just ridiculously, offensively, grossly outrageous.

John Dehlin [00:42:25] You know, the church, there's just infinite examples of perpetrators not being disciplined, not being excommunicated. Their records aren't annotated. Even if they are excommunicated or their records are annotated. In the case of Wade Christofferson, brother of Apostle and First Presidency member D. Todd Christofferson, as quickly as is humanly possible, the church rushes to de. Annotate their record to get them rebaptized and hurries to put them back into a position of responsibility over youth. I mean, that's what the record shows. Not to mention Kurt McConkey's weekly settlement mill, as I understand it, of paying off victims to silence them under NDA so that the. The justice never happens against the perpetrators and accountability never happens against the church and the church's good name is protected and lawsuits don't happen.

John Dehlin [00:43:35] Like the. It's like, I think the Book of Mormon says, woe unto those who call good evil and evil good. This attorney and Jasmine rapely seem to be just openly deceiving people and calling evil good.

Meggan Hayes [00:43:52] Yes. And I lost my train of thought. Like, I just have so many thoughts and. Right. Feelings about what's going on. Like, it's. It's really frustrating to see all of this happening and the way that the church handles it. I think what I would suggest is that. So this video was quite a bit longer than what we're listening to even now. And for people who really understand what. What it takes, like trained professionals who understand what it takes to protect children as best we can, I would, I would advise people, if they can, to put that information out there because the more people who are talking about legit ways that the church can do better, I think that would be helpful because we know that they change slowly and under great pressure.

Meggan Hayes [00:44:41] That was what I was thinking is like, I'm not an expert on what it takes to protect children. That's not what my, you know, classical training is in. And so those who are keep speaking up and when I bring stuff here, I'll do the best to elevate those voices.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] I plan to have some abuse attorneys come on Mormon story soon to talk about their example. But I love it that I think our next clip is going to talk about the protocol. Can we play that?

Meggan Hayes [00:45:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:07] Okay.

Guest 1 [00:45:08] This is an alleged helpline protocol document that Was released online in, like, 2018. There's, like, a 19.

John Dehlin [00:45:17] Can I just say that's ridiculous that he calls it an alleged protocol document? This came out of the West Virginia lawsuit. And this is. Nobody disputes that this is an actual legitimate copy. So it's weird, and I feel deceptive to call it alleged.

Meggan Hayes [00:45:34] Alleged.

John Dehlin [00:45:34] Let's keep going. Yeah.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [00:45:36] 99 date on it. So the issue brought up online by critics regarding this document is largely that the church claims that the helpline is about protecting victims. But then a lot of the questions on this protocol document are about church liability issues. And so that leads a lot of people to say, well, the church is just trying to protect itself when it comes to these abuse cases. So I wanted to show this to you. Do

Video Clip 4 [00:45:59] you recognize this criticism? Right. Like, if that were the case, like, that's a fair hit, right? If, like. No, I had never seen this before when you sent it to me. And so, of course, I recognize some of the names on here, because some of these people are still there and, like, are people that I've worked with before.

Video Clip 4 [00:46:21] So you've never seen this before?

Video Clip 4 [00:46:22] No.

Video Clip 4 [00:46:23] And if it was used, that's a shame. In the 90s probably

Video Clip 4 [00:46:26] of its time would be my guess. But.

Video Clip 4 [00:46:29] So this is not the protocol used currently.

Video Clip 4 [00:46:32] No.

Video Clip 4 [00:46:32] What is the current protocol?

Video Clip 4 [00:46:34] I mean,

Video Clip 4 [00:46:35] I guess it depends on the situation. Make a list of steps to go through.

Video Clip 4 [00:46:40] But

John Dehlin [00:46:40] I'm just going to pause. If it's not the current protocol, why isn't there transparency? How long was it used? When did they stop using it? When did they change it? What did they change it to? Why did they change it? Like, this is a rhetorical device of just saying, oh, my gosh, it's in last millennium. You know, like, it's so old. Okay, I recognize some names. I mean, to their credit, they're talking about it. Did you notice how highly edited that video is? They cut out a lot of segments, I think, from,

Meggan Hayes [00:47:12] well,

John Dehlin [00:47:12] this discussion. Unless that was you.

Meggan Hayes [00:47:14] So I just cut out pauses.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:47:16] Where there would be a lot because. Yeah, because the videos were, like, three minutes long. And I was like, if we can get them down to two and a half, okay,

John Dehlin [00:47:22] we'll scrap that. But, I mean, but I. They. They could solve the problem. This whole alleged protocol, it's old. Well, they can fix all that by. By clarifying it. So, anyway, I just wanted to make that point. All right, we'll

Meggan Hayes [00:47:35] keep going.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [00:47:36] There are, like, things that can escalate a situation. And it's like, is the perpetrator in the home with the child. Like, how far has the abuse gone at this point? Like, do we need to get this child to a hospital or just to a forensic interview? Or like, how can we help with any immediate needs? And most of this is a calculation that law enforcement needs to make. Like, we're not asking bishops to make these kinds of determinations, but it's information that we use to then get it to the right escalation point. Right? Of like, no, we actually just need you to call 91 1.

Video Clip 5 [00:48:16] Or it's okay. Like, we don't need to call 911 tonight. But also like, this child and this child's mother shouldn't be in that home with the perpetrator tonight. Like, it's oftentimes an older sibling who is doing the abuse. And so we'll ask the family, like, do you have a relative that doesn't have children in the home that your son can go stay at? Are there, you know, ways that we can, like, protect the family tonight?

Video Clip 5 [00:48:47] Because this doesn't require 911 intervention. And we're still in the report gathering phase of, like, we're going to get this to law enforcement, but what can we do in the interim to make sure that child isn't abused again in the immediate future? So those are the types of risk assessments we're making in these calls. But it's never.

Video Clip 5 [00:49:08] I didn't hear anything about church liability issues in there.

Video Clip 5 [00:49:11] Never.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] Oh, my gosh. Okay, so let me see what you've

Guest 1 [00:49:17] got.

John Dehlin [00:49:18] Let me see what you've got as the next slide. Go ahead, go ahead and present the slide and then I'll, I'll jump in.

What Senior Church Leaders Knew About Abuse Cases

Meggan Hayes [00:49:24] Okay, so my big question, and I put it huge on here, where is the evidence? Does routing abuse reports through church attorneys make children safer? Because I think that's what she's trying to convince people of, what she says. Attorneys prioritize protecting victims. The goal is to report abuse as quickly as possible. Lawyers help bishops navigate complicated cases. But what we need to know, what percentage of abuse allegations reach CPS or police? How much time passes between disclosure and reporting? How often are leaders told to delay or withhold reports? Has the helpline been independently evaluated? There are no published comparisons showing the church helpline is safer than direct reporting to CPS or police. And why in heaven's name are church lawyers getting in between victims and the people who can actually help them?

John Dehlin [00:50:20] Yeah, so I, I'm really, I'm really disturbed. We covered this with Tim Kosnoff and others on Mormon Stories Podcast I'm really disturbed at kind of the sleight of hand they're doing because I want to. You know, basically on the one hand they're saying, oh, that's an old protocol. We don't use it anymore. But then they're not providing what the new one is. So it could be they changed the spelling or one word or one sentence. It very well could be they added a question or two, but maintained largely the questions that were already there.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] My guess is it resembles the 99 protocol a lot more than it differs from it. That still doesn't provide accountability for what they did do for decades. But let me. But let me just read what the questions were off the protocol that she's referring to.

John Dehlin [00:51:12] Does your call concern child sexual abuse which may have occurred on church property? Does that have anything to do with protecting the victim or helping the victim?

Meggan Hayes [00:51:23] No. Right there at the end of her video, she said, those are the kind of risk assessments that we do. Like, she gave it away right there. That's what this is. This is.

John Dehlin [00:51:31] Does your call concern child sexual abuse which may have occurred at a church sponsored activity? Does a bleeding child care. Does the help of a, of a bleeding child depend on knowing whether the activity occurred or the harm occurred during. On church property? Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:51:51] No.

John Dehlin [00:51:52] Does the care of a bleeding child depend on knowing whether or not the abuse occurred during a church sponsored activity?

Meggan Hayes [00:52:00] No. No. Assess the blood not where it happened.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] Does you know, does the bleeding of the child, the healing of the, or treating of the bleeding of a child relate to whether or not, as this protocol asks, a church leader was involved in the abuse? Does it matter?

Meggan Hayes [00:52:23] No. No. It's like two of my kids come to me, okay? One time, two. What if

John Dehlin [00:52:27] they were? Wait, what if they were employed by the church? Does that affect the treatment of the, of the bleeding child

Meggan Hayes [00:52:33] here? Two of my kids were in the backyard playing one time and one threw a rock. They were trying to throw it over the fence. They hit the other child in the head, and this child comes in bleeding profusely. I picked up that child, applied pressure. I wasn't heading out to the backyard to see where the rock had come from.

John Dehlin [00:52:50] I

Meggan Hayes [00:52:50] was assessing the immediate danger, the blood that, like.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Yeah. And the final question on this protocol is, does your call concern an alleged perpetrator who's currently a missionary for the church? Like, none of these questions are about, is your victim bleeding? Do they have trauma? Have they been taken to the hospital? Have they been provided mental health support? Everyone is. Was it on church property? Was it A church employee? Was it a missionary? Was it during a church activity? None are about the victim. All are about assessing responsibility and liability. And until she provides what the current protocol is, all we can assume is it's a type and shadow of this protocol, which then makes her responses, in my view, deceptive.

Meggan Hayes [00:53:42] Yes. Because he says, so what is the current protocol? And she's like, well, you know, it's just. It's not that she doesn't even answer the question.

John Dehlin [00:53:49] That's terrible. All right, let's go to the next clip.

Meggan Hayes [00:53:51] Okay.

▶ Video Clip 6

Video Clip 6 [00:53:52] I know that when I've gone to brief church leaders on a case with my boss, I knew what I had to be prepared for in that meeting. Right. Of like, we've got a case that some catastrophic outcome occurred. And here's what I knew I needed to be prepared for in that meeting.

Video Clip 6 [00:54:12] I knew that the general authority was going to ask me how the victim was. I knew that the general authority was going to ask me how the family was doing. I knew the general authority was going to ask me how the bishop was doing.

Video Clip 6 [00:54:26] I knew they were going to ask me how the community was doing. I knew they were going to ask me if there was any other ways that we could support them, if there were any meaningful ways that we could get involved, if there was anything we could do to help, if all the services had been offered that could be offered. Are they getting mental health professional services? I knew those are the questions that I was going to be asked. It was never, how much is the settlement?

Video Clip 6 [00:54:55] What's the bottom line number? How much is this going to hurt our reputation? Did you hire an outside public relations firm to go and do, like, all of these things that I think would have to go into a calculation about how this is going to hurt the church?

Video Clip 6 [00:55:16] One, I never had a single conversation the entire time I was there about anything even remotely close to that. But it's just not what they care about either. Like, they're in the business of saving souls. I'm bringing people to Christ. And so once you've lived that and you've been in the room with any of those men, like, you start to understand and really see that space. Spiritual piece of it. And I think it's those glimpses that tie all of us to the church, that keep our souls anchored there, that keep us coming back. Because it's the truth of the gospel. It's the hope of the gospel,

Video Clip 6 [00:55:57] Meggan.

Video Clip 6 [00:55:58] I know that.

John Dehlin [00:56:00] So I guess let's go to the next slide.

Meggan Hayes [00:56:04] Yeah. So she is using compassion to avoid talking about oversight, what did senior church leaders actually know? What Kate witnessed was general authorities asked about victims and their families. She says she did not hear discussions about settlements or reputational damage. But what that does not establish is what attorneys discussed before briefing church leaders, whether liability influenced decisions elsewhere, how much information general authorities received, whether leaders independently evaluated the helpline. Compassionate questions are not evidence of effective institutional oversight, period. Someone can be as compassionate as they know how to be and still be part of a system that harms children every single day.

John Dehlin [00:56:51] Yeah, I mean, I think if we want to be fair and objective and try to be empathetic, I don't think there are church leaders, Mormon church leaders, general authorities that want child abuse to happen. So, yeah, great, I agree.

John Dehlin [00:57:10] But, but you know, they're careful to understand who they are and what they represent and who they're, you know, what their roles and responsibilities are and what the roles and responsibilities of others are. The general authorities also don't serve as lawyers on the case. They have lawyers who are doing the legal work and the settlement work on the case and discussing numbers and discussing payments. And they have PR people who are handling hiring the PR firms and dealing with the reputational damage. Like, and I don't mean to be abrasive here, but a mob boss, you know, if a, if a mom's, you know, son was killed in mob related activity and the mom goes in to talk to the mob boss, the mob boss isn't going to say, your son was hurting our reputation and he was costing us money.

John Dehlin [00:58:05] He's going to buy the grieving mom flowers and give her chocolates and pat her on the back and tell her he loves her and how can he help her. But anyone who's managing at a high level knows that you've got people at lower levels. If there's dirty work to do, you leave the dirty work to the people at the lower levels. And, and you're careful about who you talk to, about what. You don't rise in the level of a $300 billion multinational corporation without knowing how to read a room and what to say to who, depending on who's in the room.

John Dehlin [00:58:48] And I do believe that they care about ministering to the members and protecting children. I do believe that. But, but don't, don't insult us with this, this idea that, that because they, they aren't stupid in how they communicate in business meetings, that those types of conversations don't happen and, or that they're not involved in those types of conversations about settlement numbers and the church's Reputation and more importantly, the system that influences the, the overall handling of these types of cases. There's no question high level general authorities are involved in all of that. They're just smart and strategic about what they say to who.

Meggan Hayes [00:59:42] Yes,

John Dehlin [00:59:43] right.

Meggan Hayes [00:59:44] Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's what she's proving to me is that she's going in there with someone who's higher level than her and her job is to be on the compassionate side, which I. Colby's in the chat. You might want to read some like. I think one of his comments got flagged because it's talks about this, but I've been wanting to break down this video for weeks because this really does have me very worked up over what she's saying and what the reality is and how putting out a video like this is just furthering the harm of people.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] Yeah, we love Colby. Colby writes from his let's Disagree show account, which we love. Check out let's Disagree with Colby Reddish. He writes the claim and he's an attorney. By the way. The claim that the helpline is about protecting victims is completely blown apart by the simple fact that victims, I would say, don't know about it and can't call it. Only church leaders can. That is a fabulous point. And Colby goes on to write, it's like Kate, this attorney cannot appreciate that good intentions when they exist don't guarantee good, good outcomes. That the church has enough money and power and influence to fix all of this.

John Dehlin [01:01:09] If they wanted to, they could. Colby goes on to write, they do care about it. They just don't care about the children and protecting them as much as they care about protecting the image of the church and its assets. And I would say it's also its reputation amongst the members. Thank you, Colby. We love your comments. Pineapple Jack 8099 ads. Thank you for the super chat. Please continue covering the grooming and CSA in the church. This is such a huge problem within Mormonism and I'm going to say it is the darkest stain in the entire history of the church. Not polygamy, not financial fraud, not silencing critics or hiding and deceiving about its history.

John Dehlin [01:01:59] It's systemic child abuse and it's cover up. So thank you Meggan for helping bring attention to it. Let's go to the next slide or video.

Is the Church Helpline Making Children Safer?

▶ Video Clip 7

Video Clip 7 [01:02:08] If you had to narrow your message down to just one thing that you wish people understood about the helpline, what would it be?

Video Clip 7 [01:02:18] I don't know why, but my co workers faces popped into my head when you said that and not just like my legal co workers, the other attorneys I worked with, but the mental health professionals that I got to rub shoulders with. And I think of their dedication to the work and I think of their own lived experiences with child abuse within their own families, within their own childhoods.

Video Clip 7 [01:02:54] And I think of like how committed we all are and like, I can't say are because I'm out there, but how committed I was and how we committed we all were at the time to stop being child abuse.

Video Clip 7 [01:03:09] We're trying to bring it into the light and into this healing realm. And so I think that's. If I wish there was one thing people understood, it would be the people behind a sheet of names, the people working there, because not one of them would ever protect a child predator, ever.

Meggan Hayes [01:03:39] This is just so it's hard because I want to validate that her feelings are real and understand how appealing to emotion in this way is just trying, whether she is doing it intentionally or not, trying to get people to not look at the actual issues and just say, well, these people are trying so. And their hearts are really in it.

Meggan Hayes [01:04:07] Sometimes people's best isn't good enough. Like I have to think the same things when I look at the way I was raised because my parents did a lot of harm to me and my siblings and they were legit doing their best. Well, I was still abused.

Meggan Hayes [01:04:24] You just, you have to be able to set that aside and look at what's actually happening. And for her to go this way, like it bothers me because as a lawyer she should know that the emotion does not stop what is happening to these victims. Whether her co workers were nice people doesn't matter.

Meggan Hayes [01:04:45] It doesn't matter to the 8 year old who was abused in the bishop's office. She still got abused even though the lawyers at Curtin McConkey were sad about it.

John Dehlin [01:04:58] Yeah. And I'll just say I believe her tears and her qu. Qu. Quivering voice or sincere. I believe she wants to help children. I, I think that was a very ultimately deceptive appeal. Number one, she's mentioning her attorneys and the mental health professionals. I didn't hear her mention victims in that appeal.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] But more importantly, you know, save the tears and just Mormon church. Implement mandatory background checks of all leaders. Implement a new policy that no one on one interviews behind, you know, involving bishops and children ever, ever, ever happen again.

John Dehlin [01:05:53] Install cameras in every bishop's office. Record every interaction between bishops and the members if it's behind closed doors so that there's a record change. Use your extensive money and power and influence to change reporting laws to maximize, instead of minimize, the number of these cases that get reported to the police. Provide much greater transparency, provide accountability. Show us what the protocols are. Provide an actual victim hotline. Like, there are a million things the church could do with its money and power, aside from a quivering voice and crocodile tears, to actually make the church safer for children.

John Dehlin [01:06:48] And that's what we need here, not quivering voices from people who don't actually work for the church, who don't actually represent the church. It's a. It's an appeal to emotion. It's manipulative. Even if that's not her intent.

Meggan Hayes [01:07:05] Yes. Yes. And that's what I felt from. It was at the end. If she ends with her testimony, then it's sealed. Right. And this is just the beginning of this conversation. Her tears shouldn't be the end of the conversation.

John Dehlin [01:07:22] Yeah. Let's go to the next clip.

Guest 5 [01:07:25] The church is the number one child abuse reporter in the state of Utah

John Dehlin [01:07:30] by far.

Meggan Hayes [01:07:32] Okay, so this.

John Dehlin [01:07:34] Are you joking me right now?

Meggan Hayes [01:07:36] No. Okay, so this video actually came out before the previous one on that channel called Mormonism Explained that is just all AI and then clipped recordings like this. Like, there's not. I don't know if you've looked into that channel much. It's so strange. But this was just her. It never showed an interviewer or anything. And this was one of the first things she said. And when this video originally came out, I went on there and I said, I would love to see numbers as to where you got that claim. And no one ever responded. Like, I. I don't know why she said that. And there's absolutely nothing to back it up. The chart they put on the screen has nothing to do with what she's saying.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] Yeah. So here's the. Here's the slide you have.

Meggan Hayes [01:08:18] Yeah. So she says the church is number one by far. And what the state reports there were 51,105 all reports received statewide in Utah. 24,006 reports accepted for CPS investigation reporter. Categories include police, schools, health services, families, and others. There is no separate LDS Church category or ranking. The 2025 report doesn't show that. So wherever she got that number, either she needs to show us or she's just making it up.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] And I mean, of course, it's a theocracy in Utah. The church controls the state. And it's a. It's the wealthiest organization and the largest organization in the entire state. Like, half of the citizens in the state belong to the church. Like, of Course, the church is going to have a large. Even if it's only reporting 1% of the abuses that happen, of course it's going to have a large number of cases. But if she really cares about every child, and if the church really cares about every child, what she's going to be talking about is what percentage of abuse cases in Utah get reported to the police.

John Dehlin [01:09:41] Not what's the quantity of cases reported relative to other organizations that just by definition are going to be significantly smaller. That's so deceptive. It's outrageous. It's maddening. It makes me question all those crocodile tears because that's such a deceptive, lawyerly, manipulative statement to make, in my opinion.

Meggan Hayes [01:10:07] Yeah, because like you said, it doesn't. It doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't tell us what the problem is. It doesn't. She's just trying to, like, pat herself on the back.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] It's. It's a lawyerly. It's a PR and a lawyerly crafted factoid intended to deceive and manipulate and to avoid responsibility, I think.

Meggan Hayes [01:10:28] Yeah, it just. When I heard it, I was like, wait, what? What did she just say? This can't be real.

John Dehlin [01:10:33] No, I mean, that's embarrassing. I'm. If that's still up, I'm. I'm surprised

Meggan Hayes [01:10:38] it is. Mormonism explained.

John Dehlin [01:10:41] All right. Oh, okay. But not by, like, the church or any official.

Meggan Hayes [01:10:44] Well, Mormonism explained is. Oh,

John Dehlin [01:10:47] okay. Oh, it's an apologetic.

Meggan Hayes [01:10:49] Yeah, yeah. It. But it actually has ties to the church. I think I

John Dehlin [01:10:53] found that

Meggan Hayes [01:10:53] out on

John Dehlin [01:10:54] your

Meggan Hayes [01:10:55] website. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:56] Indirectly.

Meggan Hayes [01:10:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:10:58] Indirectly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so slimy to me. That's slimy.

Guest 5 [01:11:03] Can you imagine how many hundreds of stake presidents and thousands of bishops who have had to call the helpline over the years? Like, if it were true that we were telling bishops and stake presidents, ooh, this is going to look bad for the church. We better not report it. Do you think all of those thousands and thousands of people would stay silent and be like, I've signed up to cover child abuse? Yep. I feel great about that. No problem. I'd love to continue being a stake president and bishop. No, they would all quit or call law enforcement. There would be so many stories that. And instead the.

Guest 5 [01:11:48] These bishops and stake presidents are honoring their confidentiality, their role as clergy. And they know that we got it reported to law enforcement right away. The state of Utah knows that we got it reported to them. I don't have a dog in this fight anymore. I am not still currently employed by Curtin. McConkey, I am busy being a mom to my little kids and serving my ward as Relief Society President. I don't have anything to gain by talking about my experiences on the Helpline. Nobody's paying me to say this. I'm not. Nobody's asking me from the church to do this.

Sex Offenders in Congregations and Closing the Helpline Discussion

John Dehlin [01:12:30] Holy moly. Meggan. What. What's your response to that? Oh, here's the. Is. Is the slide next

Meggan Hayes [01:12:37] or is that. See.

John Dehlin [01:12:40] No, it's not. Go ahead, Go ahead. What's your

Meggan Hayes [01:12:41] response

John Dehlin [01:12:42] to that?

Meggan Hayes [01:12:44] She does have a dog in the fight because she's still an active, believing member. That's a huge.

John Dehlin [01:12:51] Protect and uphold and support the church. That's her temple covenants. Go

Meggan Hayes [01:12:55] ahead. Yes. Yeah. No, that. That was. The whole point is that she's like, I don't have a dog in this fight. No one's paying me. No, she's paying them 10% of her income. And she has covenanted in the temple to give all of her time, talents, and everything that she has to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. That's a huge dog in the fight. So I don't think it's honest for her to say that. And there are a lot of bishops and stake presidents leaving the church, so her saying, if this is what we were doing, people would be leaving. Well, those very people are leaving the church because that has been their experience that they called the Helpline, that it wasn't handled properly and it made them look under the hood a little bit and say, hmm, this organization might not be as awesome as I thought it was.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] This idea, like, has she ever read a Mormon history book ever? This idea that Mormon leaders would never do something dishonest or illegal, you know, if the church told them to, they would immediately quit and resign and become whistleblowers. Like, has she heard of Mormon polygamy? Has she heard of the Mountain Meadows Massacre?

John Dehlin [01:14:14] Has she heard of Ensign Peak and the SEC fraud? Has she heard of, you know, you know, just. Has she heard of any of that? Like, if the Mormon Church history has shown us anything, it's that Mormon leaders who were sworn to never criticize their church leaders, to obey what they're told to do will absolutely violate the law, lie, hide, deceit, cover up, fall in line and obey to the point of. Of marrying 10 or 20 women, 14 year olds, other people's wives going out and shooting men, women and children and claiming that the Indians did it, creating 10 or 20 shell companies, you know, to.

John Dehlin [01:15:12] To hide the church's massive wealth and on and on and on, if Mormon history tells us anything. And by the way, why don't more bishops and stake presidents speak out? Look at what the church just did to Bull Euler, who's a former bishop who spoke out. They got their army of influencers to smear and malign and discredit him.

John Dehlin [01:15:39] What he received was so horrific that he and his family moved from Salt Lake City to an undisclosed location. They left the state in part over the smearing that the church did when Beau spoke out. And what happened with Sam Young? Excommunicated. What happened with me? Excommunicated. Natasha Helfer, Excommunicated. Sam Young, excommunicated. Like she is doing a horrific job of propaganda and manipulation and deception to suggest that Mormon history suggests that anytime the church asks its leaders to do something illegal or untoward that they're all going to resign and speak openly against the church in protest. The history shows the opposite. They're going to fall in line, obey what they're told to do, and at worst, they're going to stay silent for fear of reprisal

Meggan Hayes [01:16:48] and

John Dehlin [01:16:48] repercussion. So that. That is a disgusting. I don't know if it's intentional, but it's a disgusting misrepresentation of how our culture and how authority and obedience and retribution operates in Mormon history and in Mormon culture.

Meggan Hayes [01:17:09] Yes, we are all trained from a very young age to be quiet and to fall in line. And that can't be taken out of this equation. People don't speak up because they're afraid to lose their families, their communities, their jobs. That's a huge cost to pay. And when people are silent, I understand why, and I don't judge them for that. Because going up against the church is no small thing.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] Yeah, not at all. Bo writes. How could she possibly talk about her corporate friends and co workers rather than crying over the thousands of children who are suffering from them strategically sweeping it all under the carpet? All right, well, this segment's gone long, but it's worth it. Final thoughts. Meggan, what's this slide about?

Meggan Hayes [01:17:59] So this was just a. I was looking into the Kate Locke stuff and this came up on the ex Mormon subreddit. Someone said there are registered sex offenders in their ward. My ward has two regularly attending registered sex offenders. One of them gave the opening prayer. So the parent says both men have convictions involving children. Neither has a church calling. Both regularly attend services. The parent is considering staying through primary to supervise their children. So this is a physically and mentally out person who would typically just go to sacrament meeting. But then they found that there are registered offenders in their ward. Now they are like, well, I probably have to stay the whole time to keep my children safe.

Meggan Hayes [01:18:37] Why? Because they're pretty sure the church isn't going to do that. So just a couple of questions that I think kind of go over everything we've been talking about, like, what safeguards apply to this? You know, like, why is this stuff happening? If everything that Kate is saying, if they really just want to get people reported and keep children safe, where in the church is that happening? It's not happening at the ward level. It's not happening at the lawyer level. Where is it happening?

John Dehlin [01:19:04] Yeah, I don't know if she's doing it intentionally. What's her name again?

Meggan Hayes [01:19:08] Kate Locke.

John Dehlin [01:19:10] I don't know if she's doing it intentionally, but Kate Locke is playing the role of propagandists and deceiver, in my opinion, in. And how she's shilling for the church behind crocodile tears in a quivering voice. It's revolting, giving this. Given the stakes. And I just assume she believes what she's saying and that she's sincere, but I just. I want to call her out because the functional role of the words she's voicing are to cover up and hide and mislead the. The harm of real children. And she's doing so much damage by making people think that these are not the droids you're looking for.

John Dehlin [01:19:55] There is a systemic problem. It still exists. It manifests every single week on this podcast. And there's almost no accountability that. That we're seeing by. By the church and its leaders. And who the freak is she to even be speaking for the church, by the way?

John Dehlin [01:20:16] Why. Why is she speaking? Where's the head of Curt McConkie? Where's the head of the church's mental health hotline? Where's the head of the church's operations? Where's the priesthood leadership? Where's the general authority? Or why isn't the prophet speaking about this?

Meggan Hayes [01:20:33] Why

John Dehlin [01:20:34] is she speaking about this? All right, you're causing me to flip tables, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [01:20:40] Well, I had to watch both of those videos all the way through more than once, John. So join the club. It was hard. And the first one that was on Mormonism is playing came out weeks ago, and I watched it, and I was like, we have to talk about this at some point.

John Dehlin [01:20:54] Yeah, well, we're going to cover it more. I've got some. At least one or two special guests lined up to delve into this from people with personal experience. So Anyway, thanks for covering this. This is stuff I needed to know more about, so thank

Meggan Hayes [01:21:11] you.

Mormon Influencers Discussing Pornography and Marriage

John Dehlin [01:21:12] Going to the next story.

Meggan Hayes [01:21:14] Yeah, the Paul's. So this is Savannah and Hayden. I always have to think, is it Hayden or Jackson? Because Hayden and Jackson Paul are twins. Twins. Are they just brothers?

John Dehlin [01:21:25] Just

Meggan Hayes [01:21:25] brothers. Brothers. And they both have big social media presence. So this is Hayden Paul and his wife Savannah. And they love to talk about his pornography problem. Yeah, I mean, so that. That next slide is Savannah's Instagram page. You can go there. Meet the Paul's, Hayden and Savannah, they have a podcast called I Stand at the Door. Their message is that Latter Day Saint couples who share their personal experiences with pornography, marriage. Oh, they are a Latter Day Saint couple who share their personal experiences with pornography, marriage, betrayal, and recovery. Savannah holds a Bachelor of Science in nursing from byu. Hayden is a former US Marine who has publicly discussed his own struggles with pornography. Their podcast focuses on overcoming pornography use, rebuilding trust, strengthening marriages, and healing through faith. Neither has a verified professional credential in psychology, addiction treatment, marriage counseling, or sex therapy.

John Dehlin [01:22:25] All right, And I am going to say publicly that I applaud Hayden Paul for, I assume, allowing his wife and himself to talk about something so vulnerable. So first of all, congratulations. Sincere congratulations to them for that. And also I've had direct communication with Savannah Paul about this, and I applaud her for tackling a very important and sensitive topic and for conveying a message that I think has. Is super important and healthy and valuable.

John Dehlin [01:23:07] And that, incidentally, and this is part of the conversation I've had about with her, incidentally, a set of messages that many of us, including Natasha Helper Parker and Julie de Azevedo and myself and many others have been trying to get church members to talk about for 21 years.

John Dehlin [01:23:31] So, you know, she's basically saying, and you may cover this, and if so, we can. We can speed through it, but she's basically saying, don't divorce your husband if he looks at porn. Don't demean him excessively. Show him love, show him patience. Don't take it personally as a woman.

John Dehlin [01:23:54] You know, have faith in God and in Christ. Believe in the atonement, talk through things, be vulnerable with each other, help each other through it, and try to find healthy ways to heal. And I applaud all that. And Meggan, I'm guessing so. So good job, Hayden and Savannah Paul for all of that. And Meggan, I'm guessing you would agree.

Meggan Hayes [01:24:19] Yeah, so my. When I started looking at this, part of my deconstruction from the church was thinking that my husband was a porn addict because he had looked at porn a handful of times in our marriage. And what was really happening was that there were a lot of other really toxic and abusive things going on in our marriage. And that was just the thing that I pointed out as, like, the main problem. And I found this online.

Meggan Hayes [01:24:46] Well, it was a Facebook group just for women. They were all LDs and their husbands were all addicts. Okay. And that's where I started learning about boundaries and, you know, different therapy modalities. That's why I finally got into therapy. And so I have spent a lot of time in that LDS world where Savannah is. And I eventually. It eventually led me out of the church.

Meggan Hayes [01:25:16] However, while I was in the church, it was a much healthier space to be in the church than where I was previous because there was a lot more vulnerability. There were people talking about actual issues that they were experiencing in their relationships. There were conversations about boundaries. It's why I finally went to my branch president and said, I'm pregnant with my sixth child. I can't be the Relief Society president anymore. It was all because of that world. The we. We called each other Wopas, wife of a porn addict.

Meggan Hayes [01:25:50] And my association with Wopas in the LDS realm, I think, actually saved my life because my marriage was in such a bad place that I didn't want to be alive anymore. And them telling me that I could look outside the church for resources, that I could talk vulnerably about what was going on. My marriage, that opened me up to a world that I didn't know existed because I had spent so much time looking to the scriptures for help. And, you know, I memorized the scripture on charity suffereth long and is kind. And that's how I was going to save my marriage. And it didn't do anything.

Meggan Hayes [01:26:31] So I love the space that they are in. It was a huge catalyst for me to get in a much healthier space in my life and in my marriage. And I think it is super valuable what they do. Do I still see issues with it? Absolutely. However, within Mormonism, it was so good for me.

John Dehlin [01:26:53] Beautiful. Thank you.

Meggan Hayes [01:26:55] Someone's asking what my shirt says. It says weird.

John Dehlin [01:27:00] Thanks for sharing something so personal. And, yeah, I, I, you know, I had to confess to Margi at some point to occasional masturbation and looking at some images. And in that process, we had to work through that ourselves, and the shame and the sadness and the heartbreak about all of that. So Margi and I have also had our own journey with that. And.

John Dehlin [01:27:28] But. But Most importantly, where I'm coming from is 21 years or 30 years, 10 thousands, tens of thousands of people I've talked to who were driven to the point of even suicidality, but depression and anxiety and massive marital distress and often divorce over toxic messages around lob, chastity, shame, porn and that sort of thing, and pathologizing normative behavior and calling it addiction.

John Dehlin [01:28:05] When the majority of the cases that I've interacted with, including six years operating as a psychologist, almost none of the cases that self described as addiction actually met criteria for addiction. So let's go ahead and play the first video clip that you have prepared.

Meggan Hayes [01:28:25] Okay.

Guest 6 [01:28:26] So what happens is over time your, your brain starts to recognize it's getting overstimulated with this dopamine and it shrinks those, those axons, it shrinks them so that they're not producing as much dopamine. And what happens is then all of a sudden things in your life become less stimulating. So things that used to give you a dopamine rush, like let's say you really liked, I don't know, like skateboarding or running or whatever, because it gave you this rush. They're going to be, you're going to become disinterested in them. And I think a lot of people who are listening maybe have felt that where, because pornography is so prevalent, you're not as interested, you're not as motivated to do things maybe that you used to like to do. And the only thing that really gives you that rush is pornography. Pographene.

John Dehlin [01:29:12] Oh my gosh. Go, go ahead, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [01:29:14] So this is the, the side of it that I think causes a lot of issues. You know, when I was in that world, in the porn addiction world, a big support that we thought we had as women was the fight the new drug campaign. And this is kind of what this sounds like to me. But there is not science behind what's going on with what he's saying. There aren't peer reviewed articles that's this what he's saying. There is, is a part of it that's not helpful.

John Dehlin [01:29:45] Yeah, like, like Hayden once I asked Hayden if ever, you know, graduated from college. And I think I remember him saying he didn't think the juice was worth the squeeze. And I don't fault people who don't go to college. I think Bill Gates didn't go to, you know, graduate from college. Like brilliant people do great things in the world without graduating from college. Having said that, I just think he's out of his depth here.

John Dehlin [01:30:11] I wish he would leave these Types of discussions to professionals. This idea that if you masturbate too much, you won't want to skateboard or go running anymore. I think over 90% of men report masturbation. We would just have a world full of, of men eating Cheetos on the couch if orgasms and dopamine led to inactivity. Like, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He should go to college and get a degree. I think the juice would be worth that squeeze. But I just think he's totally out of his depth. And I can say that having obtained a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology, the dude is, is misleading and misrepresenting.

John Dehlin [01:31:01] It's not based on science. He's doing way more harm than good. He thinks he's doing good, I'll give him that. But what a, what a useless and harmful opinion to be sharing. Go. Go to college. Hayden, Paul. Go back to college. If you ever went, go back.

Meggan Hayes [01:31:20] Yes. And that's, that's what I think finally became really apparent to me when I was just immersed. Like I was fully immersed in that world was like I was learning some things that were really helping me. And then I was starting to see that there was because it was so church related and so much of the information was also coming from church related sources that there was a part of it that I needed to discard if I really was gonna start doing healthier things. And this was part of it.

John Dehlin [01:31:49] Yeah, absolutely. Masturbation is healthy and normative and ubiquitous. Bishops are doing it.

Meggan Hayes [01:31:56] I

John Dehlin [01:31:56] don't, I don't think bishops have a problem leading their wards. They're masturbating and probably looking at images like, it's just so dumb. He's probably doing it. You know, maybe he's projecting. I don't know. Let's go to the next clip. This is so dumb.

Guest 5 [01:32:11] How to stop looking for proof or signs that he has relapsed. Okay, I've been there where you feel really paranoid. Checking his phone when he's asleep, questioning every bad day, wondering if he's had a relapse. The question I'd ask you, if you're in this place, what does a relapse mean in your mind? What does it mean about you, about him in your mind? Is that evidence that you're not enough for him or that he's not attracted to you? Those things actually aren't true. But that paranoia probably comes from not yet believing the truth. That his struggle is not a reflection on you, your worth or your beauty.

Guest 5 [01:32:40] You're not Broken and you're not doing something wrong for still feeling anxious. But you actually don't have to stay there either. I know that his healing is between him and God. I don't have to manage it. I wrote a whole book about my story and how I got to this point linked in my bio. I want to help you heal too.

John Dehlin [01:32:55] All right. I'm excited to hear your reaction. And then I have one too.

Meggan Hayes [01:32:59] Yeah. So I think it's a mixed bag again, where it's like calling his masturbation a relapse is problematic. However, her not taking responsibility for something that she sees as a sin is amazing. Like, you are not in charge of what he does with his body in that way. You're not in charge of that. And that is amazing. Like, you don't. Yeah, you don't need to manage his sin. You don't need to be looking at his phone after he goes to bed like, yes, that is not

John Dehlin [01:33:31] your

Meggan Hayes [01:33:31] responsibility.

John Dehlin [01:33:32] I'm going to like, hey, Julia. Or Brooklyn, like, make this a short, sincere kudos. Dang. Let me start that over. What's her name? Hayden.

Meggan Hayes [01:33:46] Savannah.

John Dehlin [01:33:46] Savannah Paul.

Meggan Hayes [01:33:48] Let

John Dehlin [01:33:48] me start this over.

Meggan Hayes [01:33:49] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:33:50] Severe kudos, Savannah Paul, for a super useful, valuable and important message to Mormons who look at porn and to their spouses. When a Mormon spouse looks at porn, it often has nothing to do with the other spouse. And the act of spouses being hyper vigilant and checking and policing their partner's porn use is more often than not going to be not only ineffective, but likely counterproductive and make the problem worse. And then most importantly, someone's looking a porn likely has nothing to do with the partner. So major kudos for that message and no criticisms. Full stop applause. Good job. I hope every member of the church gets that message.

Meggan Hayes [01:34:54] Yeah. Because that was the kind of messaging that really helped me because for so long, and I think this is really common for women in the church, they feel like they are responsible for the full, like, I want to say vibe, but that's not the Mormon word in the home. Right. So it's like if the husband comes home and he's upset, it's the wife job to make sure that the children are taken care of and there's a meal so she can manage his mood and his happiness. And she is in charge of all of that. She's in charge of her own. She's in charge of the kids, she's in charge of the husband.

Meggan Hayes [01:35:27] When that's when I started unlearning that through messages like that one that was huge for me because I was finally like, if someone else is in a bad mood, that's not my problem. I can be in a good mood even though my kid had a bad day or my husband had a bad day. I can try to make things more comfortable or peaceful, but it's not my responsibility to do that. Someone else's mood is not my fault, nor my responsibility. And that was a huge, huge thing for a people pleaser.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] Yeah. And the only thing I wish Savannah and Hayden and Jackson and others like them could acknowledge is whether that. Whether or not they know it, they're standing on the shoulders of generations of. Of mental health professionals and. And critics and activists and influencers on the Internet that have been saying these things for decades. I've been saying it for decades. Natasha's been saying it for decades. Sam Young has been saying it. Julie de Anzevedo has been saying it.

John Dehlin [01:36:42] So many Mormon influencers and critics and apostates have been saying this. And it would be nice to have her at least acknowledge that others before her have been saying this for a long time. And she's just adding her voice to the voices of many who not only came before her, but were excommunicated for saying things like this. But sometimes they don't have either the knowledge or. Or the class to give credit where credit is due. And in this case, I'm going to say knowledge. I'm not going to put the class thing on. On her. Yeah,

Meggan Hayes [01:37:20] yeah. No, I think she is. Do. Like, I followed accounts and looked up to people like her when I was starting the journey of, like, who am I and what are my boundaries? What am I responsible for? Like, there were creators such as her that I listen to every single thing they said. And actually, early on in our journey, Donnie sent me an article from Natasha Helfer, and it said that masturbation was okay, and I told him that that was devilish.

John Dehlin [01:37:49] And look what happened to her. She was excommunicated as a result. You know what

Meggan Hayes [01:37:53] I mean? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:54] Yeah. And it would be decent of. Of her and. And Hayden and others to thank her for her advocacy, even if she wasn't a perfect advocate. It would be decent of them to acknowledge that her and Sam Young and others that have gone before her have been trying to pass this message on for years and have paid prices for being public about these types of topics.

Meggan Hayes [01:38:20] Were the hammockers also therapists?

John Dehlin [01:38:23] Huh?

Meggan Hayes [01:38:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:25] Or coaches. I don't know. Therapist coaches. Yeah,

Meggan Hayes [01:38:28] yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:29] What was this slide about?

Meggan Hayes [01:38:31] So this is a link From Savannah's Instagram page that takes you to what she's selling, her curriculum, I guess, that she's come up with. So it has her book about how she healed, some cards that you can look at, a little journal.

Meggan Hayes [01:38:47] So it was just. If you click on the link tree on her Instagram, this is where it will take you. And there was only one little criticism that I had. And, like, it's maybe something that we just experience differently, but, like, I have never felt healed.

Meggan Hayes [01:39:03] Right. I have never felt like the journey has ended as far as healing goes. Maybe that's been different for her, but, like, I think part of that, too, might just be the religious part coming in where Jesus can make you whole. When I just don't feel like that's something that I. A belief that I ascribe to anymore is that I am constantly, you know, having triggers, working through those processes, processing them, learning different ways to talk about it. And do I feel much better and a lot different than I did five, ten years ago? Absolutely. Am I healed? I don't. I just don't know that that that's a real thing in the way that it felt like she was saying it.

John Dehlin [01:39:44] Yeah, yeah, I agree. It. It can lead to perfectionism and unhealthy mental health expectations and behaviors to ever think that you're ever. You've ever arrived anywhere or are whole or perfect or complete. So I think that's valid. Two other things I'll just say is that apologists and faithful people in her crowd seem to be really critical of Julie Diazevedo making money or Natasha or me or you or, you know, anyone on our side of the fence making money. And I just wonder how mindful they are, you know, when she's offering a product that costs 55 bucks, if it's a great product that adds value, I applaud her making money off of it.

John Dehlin [01:40:31] But it's like. It seems to be like, when they want to make money off their cruises or their retreats or their books or their, you know, YouTube channels, somehow that's okay. But they have no problem then maligning what they like to call the monetization of. Or the profiteering off of faith crises, which I think is just gross and disgusting. The other thing I'll say is, again, why is she speaking out?

John Dehlin [01:41:02] Why is it her that's providing the solution to this problem? Why is it Savannah, Paul? Why isn't it the church? Why does it. If the church is causing this problem of shame or of wives taking responsibility or policing their spouses or of men feeling like they're addicts or getting addicted to things because of unhealthy messages. Why isn't it Mormon church leaders at official Mormon Church curriculum that's addressing this problem instead of Savannah Paul, of all people?

Meggan Hayes [01:41:35] Well, because I think then they would have to admit that there are things that you need other than just Jesus, to. To find healing, to learn how to process things. Because I really did look for years and years through every scriptural thing that I could find to figure out how to change things, how to communicate better, how to set boundaries, even though I didn't even know boundaries was a concept, and I just didn't find it. And when I finally did, it was outside of church materials. And I don't think that the leaders of the church want to say, you should definitely read this great book by Brenna Brown, because turns out the scriptures don't outline those concepts in ways that people understand them and actually can make change.

John Dehlin [01:42:22] Well said. Let's go to the next slide. She's got a Instagram post or story. Do you want to go ahead and tell us what it says?

Meggan Hayes [01:42:31] Yeah, this was just a post. It had music behind it, but. So she had reasons to unfollow me. And the first one

John Dehlin [01:42:38] was follow or unfollow.

Meggan Hayes [01:42:39] Oh, to follow or unfollow me. Yeah, sorry. She. The first one was, I believe porn is never okay, which I think is fine for her. That's a religious or moral judgment, not a clinical conclusion. Pornography can be problematic, but viewing it doesn't automatically mean someone is addicted, unhealthy, or harming their marriage. It comes down to what the agreements are in a relationship and how someone feels about that from their own ethical and moral place. There is ethical pornography. There are people who just make and watch their own. There are a lot of different ways that people can view pornography without it being detrimental to a marriage. However, if she believes porn is never okay, that's totally fine.

John Dehlin [01:43:22] And it can also be called clinically erotica. Like, there are instances where if a couple is working through enhancing or even creating intimacy, that visual images can be helpful. And. And so it's not like anyone's necessarily pro porn. I don't think of myself as pro porn. I don't. You know, that's not a part of. Of my sexual health personally, you know, in my. In my marriage and in my life. But if a professional ends up recommending, you know, respectful, professional, healthy images that could help enhance or even allow intimacy within a private relationship as professionals, is. Is it really our job to condemn it, you know, you know. So anyway, what else, what else you got, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [01:44:23] She then says, I believe you can heal even if your husband doesn't. And this assumes the husband needs healing in the first place, which is coming from that moral place where the church says that porn and masturbation are bad. Right? Rather than asking whether his pornography use is actually problematic. That's a place where the church doesn't come at this from the healthiest, healthiest perspective. She says, I'm an LDS Christian.

Meggan Hayes [01:44:50] Religious authority and clinical experiences are not interchangeable. So her stating that, totally fine, that's different than a clinical perspective. She then says, I think a man's porn use is never his wife's fault. I completely agree with this one. But I take it one step further. A man's pornography use isn't automatically evidence that something is wrong with him either.

Meggan Hayes [01:45:13] So it's like taking her views, which seem to come from a very church perspective, and just maybe taking it a step further where we can look at it without all of that religious baggage. Hopefully,

John Dehlin [01:45:27] yeah, valid.

Meggan Hayes [01:45:29] She then says, I believe in chastity, not purity culture. And this one was hard for me. So where does chastity end and purity culture begin? So that, I mean, that's hard. There's not a line, right? If sexual behavior is still framed in terms of sin, relapse and recovery, how much of the underlying shame has actually been removed? And that could be a whole, you know, two hour discussion.

Meggan Hayes [01:45:54] She says, I don't read or encourage smut, which is a perfectly valid personal boundary, but it isn't a universal standard of sexual health. Choosing not to consume sexually explicit material doesn't establish that consuming it is inherently harmful. She then says, I teach my kids about repentance and unconditional love, so I think children can be loved unconditionally while still internalizing shame about their sexuality. If normal sexual development is framed as something requiring repentance, what does that teach children about their bodies? Because like you said, John, 90% of men especially report masturbation, and that can start at a very young age. So something to think about there.

Meggan Hayes [01:46:38] And then she says, I think Jesus is always the answer. To which I think faith can be an important source of comfort and meaning, but it isn't a substitute for evidence based or shouldn't be, maybe mental health care.

John Dehlin [01:46:51] Yeah, yeah, I, I think she's doing great work and I, I don't have a problem with these messages. I think you and I agree on that, that she's doing more good than harm by far. Yeah, that last one. Jesus is always the answer. That's false. That's just objectively false. Jesus is not always the answer, or there wouldn't be mental health professionals and there wouldn't be a need for her books.

Meggan Hayes [01:47:20] Right.

John Dehlin [01:47:21] Or her Instagram channel if Jesus was all that was necessary. So I don't even think she believes that. But it's a nice. It's a nice buzz buzz statement. I think that's harmful and wrong. I think that Jesus doesn't cure same sex attraction. Jesus doesn't cure cancer for most people. Jesus doesn't cure someone's desire to masturbate or look at porn. He just doesn't. He just does not. And in fact, sometimes scrupulosity and harmful shaming, chastity, religious messages can actually make things worse. Not. Not better. All right, what else you got?

Pornography Use, Addiction, and Ethical Sexual Care

Meggan Hayes [01:48:07] So this is the other side of the. What they're talking about. Okay, so pornography use does not always equal and rarely actually pornography addiction. So viewing pornography is not a diagnosis. Viewing pornography does not automatically indicate a mental disorder.

Meggan Hayes [01:48:27] Impaired control matters, which means compulsive sexual behavior disorder requires persistent impaired control and marked distress or significant impairment. So someone who can't hold down a job because they're viewing pornography and masturbating so much that they can't hold down a job, that could be something that would be maybe considered compulsive. I'm not a professional. These are just my thoughts on it. Moral distress is not enough. So distress based entirely on moral disapproval. My church says this is bad. I did it, so I feel bad. Does not satisfy the ICD11 diagnostic requirement for compulsive sexual behavior.

Meggan Hayes [01:49:08] So calling pornography addiction. This is why I said earlier that this is problematic because it factors in this moral thing where the church says it's bad. So then people feel bad about it when it's likely not inhibiting the way that they function in their life other than the shame that they are experiencing because their church says it's bad.

John Dehlin [01:49:29] And I really like the point you're making on the next slide, which is that there's good evidence that calling it an addiction actually adds to the distress and can actually make the problem worse. Which is something I've been saying for 20 years.

Meggan Hayes [01:49:42] Yes. And this is research out of BYU. Belief in oneself being a pornography addict was a large part of the relationship between religiousness and relationship anxiety and porn level of religiousness predicted the likelihood that a person would see themselves as a porn addict regardless of the amount of porn used, supporting the building argument that the Concept of porn addiction is largely tied to moral and religious feelings about pornography and not actual porn use. But in this study, even religious persons who did not view themselves as porn addicts had a higher relationship anxiety about porn, while people who were not religious and didn't feel addicted to porn didn't experience any negative outcomes from their porn use.

John Dehlin [01:50:29] Yeah, I think that's really important, and I think that's always been my beef. It's not that I'm pro pornography. It's that I think the church's approach to pornography historically has actually made the problem worse. It has made the problem that they want to fix worse by calling it addiction, by shaming people and that sort of thing, and by raising the stakes. It's never that I'm pro pornography per se. Should we show the next clip?

Meggan Hayes [01:50:59] Yes.

▶ Video Clip 8

Video Clip 8 [01:51:01] We really focus on why they feel out

Video Clip 8 [01:51:04] of control. And that's different than saying, yes, me as a clinician is saying, you are out of control. Right. So it's more about that exploration of why are you feeling this way. Do these feelings have to do with how you were raised, what standards and values you have? And I think it also includes some psychoeducation. Are you aware that other people who have these same standards of behavior maybe do not feel out of control? You know, and why would

Video Clip 8 [01:51:33] there be a difference here? And again, if it's part of your religious standards that you don't, you know, feel like you should masturbate, that's your right. You have the right to have that religious belief. However, when and if you do masturbate or when and if other people masturbate, doesn't mean that they are doing something diseased or ill.

John Dehlin [01:51:56] Love. I love Natasha's experience and wisdom. What'd you want to add to that?

Meggan Hayes [01:52:00] I was just trying to put a professional in there, speaking from their professional perspective.

John Dehlin [01:52:04] Yeah,

Meggan Hayes [01:52:05] Because I am not trained in this. And I just think it's important for people to understand that someone who masturbates twice a week and is not religious and doesn't have a church telling them that's bad, you just moves on with their life. It's just a part, you know, they work out five days a week, they go to work, they masturbate a couple times a week, and they're perfectly happy with their life and they don't feel bad about it, where somebody doing all that same stuff with the religious backing can have intense amount of amounts of shame around the same behavior. And so it's just important to understand that. So if you want to maintain your Religious belief. How are you going to handle that normal, healthy behavior with what your church is telling you? And I don't know how to do that, really, because I didn't stay.

John Dehlin [01:53:02] Right. Yeah. Well, clearly the church appears to be getting better at this issue overall. And just the fact that Savannah and Hayden are doing this at all shows that the church is moving to a healthier place, which, again, I applaud. You've got a final slide here, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [01:53:21] Yeah. What does ethical sexual care look like? Number one, is there actual impaired control or significant harm? So if you think you have a sexual addiction, let's get in and talk to someone and see if that's what's going on. Number two, is the distress coming from behavior, religious guilt, or both. Number three, are the person's values and autonomy being respected. And number four, is treatment helping or increasing shame and fear? So it just. There are certified sex therapists out there who can help people with these different things. If they are a good ethical therapist, they will follow your lead on what your belief is and not tell you that you need to leave the church to hear this problem. They'll find ways for you to talk about your belief and not tell you that you shouldn't believe.

John Dehlin [01:54:12] And I'll add, there's lots of social workers, licensed clinical social workers, licensed marriage and family therapists, and. And psychologists who are fully capable of. Of helping you work through your sexuality and your poor porn use and your sexual dysfunction in your marriage or whatever it is. And final reminder is there's almost no bishop who's trained in any of these issues. Like, if there's a. If there's a currently serving psychologist or marriage and family therapist as a bishop, I'd like to know about it, but it seems more and more like the church tends to call lawyers and dentists and orthodontists and business executives and entrepreneurs as bishops. It would just seem like that the calling of bishops should and could be overrepresented by mental health professionals. But oddly, the church doesn't or God hasn't. Mormon heavenly father hasn't chosen to put many mental health professionals in the position of bishop, as far as I know.

Meggan Hayes [01:55:21] Well, I think that would complicate the mandated reporter situation that we spoke of earlier, because therapists and mental health professionals are mandatory reporters.

John Dehlin [01:55:32] Yeah. Yeah. Yep. All right. Well, thanks for that story. Again, sincere congratulations. Thanks and encouragement to Savannah and Hayden Paul for what they're trying to do and what they're doing. And I only wish them the best of luck.

Meggan Hayes [01:55:53] Same. Yeah, like I said, that that whole group of people like that really helped me a lot.

John Dehlin [01:56:01] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:56:01] And I. Yeah. I won't ever forget that I still associate with women who I met during that time. We've all left the church now, but we are still best friends because we learned how to be vulnerable with each other.

John Dehlin [01:56:12] Yeah. Yeah, that's super useful. All right, let's go to the next story.

Women Underrepresented in Utah Higher Education Leadership

Meggan Hayes [01:56:17] All right. There is a new study out of Utah State University. Women are underrepresented in leadership. For the last decade plus research has shown that women serving in higher education based leadership roles lead to improved outcomes for students, faculty, staff, and communities as a whole. But that's not what we're talking about. Now.

John Dehlin [01:56:37] This isn't a religious study though, right? Okay. This is women in higher education in Utah, right?

Meggan Hayes [01:56:43] Yes. Yeah. So it's not religious, but it connects to the church because the church in Utah, you cannot separate them.

John Dehlin [01:56:50] Got it. Okay, let's keep going.

Meggan Hayes [01:56:53] So in ute, this is in Utah, women in higher education, Utah institutions compared with the national average. So on this graph, Utah is in orange and the national average is in gray. So this is at universities, you know, byu, Utah State, University of Utah. Snow. Snow. What do they call it now? It's not college anymore.

John Dehlin [01:57:14] Right.

Meggan Hayes [01:57:14] Hasn't it become a university?

John Dehlin [01:57:15] Utah? I don't even.

Meggan Hayes [01:57:16] Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:57:17] yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:57:17] Anyway, so those and other universities. So in the role of president, 18.8% in Utah are women. And nationally it's 33%. So Utah is well below the national average for women as president, presidents in higher education, in the president's cabinet, 43.8% in Utah are women. And the national average is 46%. The chief academic officer or provost. This one is actually. Utah is above the national average of women at 52.9%. The national average is 51.6%.

John Dehlin [01:57:54] That's good.

Meggan Hayes [01:57:55] Yeah. Yeah. The next one is quite the opposite. Associate or assistant chief academic Officer In Utah, 26.3% are women. In the national average of 61.5% as vice president, 45.7% in Utah are women. 55.7% is the national average. And then associate or assistant vice President In Utah, 45.7% of them are women. The national average is 52.6%. The academic dean, 37% in Utah are women. And the national average is 50.7%. And then the associate or assistant dean, 46.3% in Utah are women. And, national average is 52.6%.

John Dehlin [01:58:41] So if I were to summarize, in higher ed executive positions, women are Underrepresented in Utah.

Meggan Hayes [01:58:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:58:50] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [01:58:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:58:52] All right, is this slide similar?

Meggan Hayes [01:58:55] So go to the next one. That's the same slide.

John Dehlin [01:58:57] Is this side similar slide?

Meggan Hayes [01:59:00] So, yes, this one is similar. Only now it has an added blue line that I added in for BYU and how it compares.

John Dehlin [01:59:07] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:08] So you'll see. President of BYU has zero times been a woman. So.

John Dehlin [01:59:16] Right.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:17] Women in higher educational leadership. Zero percent have been president at byu.

John Dehlin [01:59:20] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:22] So I just, I wanted to look at this because I was like, is BYU bringing those averages down because of the. They have to have male leadership in certain callings, slash schools. Will they ever call a woman president, John? I mean, or is it ecclesiastically speaking? Does it have to be a man? Does he have to hold the priesthood?

John Dehlin [01:59:42] I mean, if I'm trying to be fair, objective, the church does have a doctrine. That's the proclamation on the family. It does discourage its mothers from working outside the home. And so if Utah is predominantly Mormon and predominantly influenced by Mormons, women are going to be underrepresented in pretty much any profession in the entire state because of that. But that's not to excuse it. I'm just saying. Yeah. That this is part of our doctrine, so it's gonna ripple into our culture and, and the professional representation in the workforce.

Meggan Hayes [02:00:29] So is it doctrinal, though, that they can't have a woman president at byu?

John Dehlin [02:00:34] No, it. But, but statistically it's unlikely

Meggan Hayes [02:00:38] because

John Dehlin [02:00:39] that would happen. But it could happen in the future.

Meggan Hayes [02:00:43] Yeah, I just, I'm thinking about it right now. I hadn't really thought about whether or not because I was like, well, it's just like the president of the church, like, it just has to be a man.

John Dehlin [02:00:50] I mean, I think that. I'm guessing CES Church education system is underrepresented with women. I'm guessing BYU faculty positions are underrepresented by women. I'm guessing any paid leadership position in the Mormon Church or position of authority is underrepresented by women just because of the way our culture is. But it. That doesn't make it right. And that doesn't make it smart or good business.

Meggan Hayes [02:01:20] Yes. Because, like,

John Dehlin [02:01:21] surprise me.

Meggan Hayes [02:01:22] Yeah. The first slide said research has shown that women serving in higher education based leadership roles lead to improved outcomes for students, faculty, staff and communities.

John Dehlin [02:01:32] Yeah, it's not smart, it's not good business, it's not good education. Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:01:39] So. And this is where my mind went next. So at these same universities, what percentage of the students are women? And it's more than half. But if you go to college presidents only 18% are women presidents. Cabinets 43%, academic deans 37%. So the women who are at these universities are not seeing themsel represented in the leadership.

John Dehlin [02:02:07] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's going to be, that's going to change. I think there's going to be a lag effect because now we know that colleges and universities, women, women out outrepresent men. It's going to be some lag time before that ripples into leadership and administration. But it will come. It will come. And people like Greg Matson and, and, and Jacob Hansen and, and Christian nationalists everywhere and people who love patriarchy and, and who hate feminists or, or dislike feminists or feminism, they're all going to say that's why we need more male culture. That, that's why we need more male, pro male content and, and pro male messaging and masculine fathers and masculine activities for sons. It's, it's because men are gonna, men are gonna fade away as women take over in education and, and in the, in the workforce and in the church, right?

Meggan Hayes [02:03:13] Oh no. Well, only if they do that. Only if the men do that. If they are toxic and people don't want to associate with them. But good men are important as well. I'm married to a really good man who has worked really hard to be a good person. And I, Yeah, I don't want to exclude him from my life when 10 years ago I would have had a different thought on that.

John Dehlin [02:03:40] Yeah. Right. As would Mark, as would Margi.

Meggan Hayes [02:03:44] Right.

John Dehlin [02:03:45] What's this next slide say?

Meggan Hayes [02:03:46] So that this is just another graph because when my mind gets going, I just go all the way down that rabbit hole. Right. So this is women in Mormon Church leaders leadership. And how does that compare to these graphs we've been looking at? 0% in the first presidency, 0% in the quorum of the 12, 0% in the presidency of the 70s, 0% in the presiding bishopric and 60% of the general organizational presidencies, which is the Relief Society, Young women primary, young men and Sunday school. So women are underrepresented in the church, which is a huge part of Utah, and they are also church, you know, church leadership and then also underrepresented in higher education leadership.

John Dehlin [02:04:28] Yeah. And by the way, I, I, it just occurred to me recently that the, the area in the upper church hierarchy where women do have representation, it's often classified. With what word? Do you know what word I'm thinking of, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:04:46] The Auxiliary.

John Dehlin [02:04:47] Auxiliary. And it was just the other day that I looked up the definition

Meggan Hayes [02:04:52] oh, no.

John Dehlin [02:04:53] Of that word. And it's. It's like saying the quiet thing out loud. Auxiliary means help support acting in a secondary or reserve capacity. And that is. I mean, at least. At least they call it like. Like it is.

Meggan Hayes [02:05:12] Oh, man. And they're still only 60%.

John Dehlin [02:05:16] Yep. It's so funny. Isn't that funny?

Meggan Hayes [02:05:19] Oh, yeah. That definition says it all. Let's put that, you know, on the church website, right. Under auxiliary. Just put the definition so people know.

James C. Jones on Race and Representation in the Church

John Dehlin [02:05:29] All right, well, let's go to the next story. It's fun to see James, James Jones in the news. He's a smart, thoughtful guy. Tell us what, what he's saying these days.

Meggan Hayes [02:05:37] Yeah, you know what? He came up on my Instagram algorithm just in the past two weeks, I think, and I didn't know a lot about him, and then I saw this story and then I connected the two and I was like, oh, I've been listening to him for a couple weeks now, and he's got some fantastic things to say. So he is a black Latter Day Saint theologian, writer, and speaker. He's a second generation Latter Day Saint. He has two master's degrees from Union Theological Seminary, which I think

John Dehlin [02:06:03] is associated with Berkeley. Okay, Berkeley, I think.

Meggan Hayes [02:06:07] Yeah. I don't. I don't know, but

John Dehlin [02:06:08] yeah,

Meggan Hayes [02:06:09] that sounds right. He's the former co host of beyond the Block. He advocates for racial inclusion and institutional accountability, and he was on the Mormon Land podcast this past week. He was interviewed.

John Dehlin [02:06:23] Yeah. And I'll just say he's super smart and, and, and wise and thoughtful and he's an effective communicator. So, yeah, let's. And he's been around before in years past, and he kind of faded. And it's fun to see him back, but this isn't the first time I've heard from him and I was hoping. I've tried to have mon. Mormon stories, but he wasn't ready. So who knows if he will be, but he's always welcome here. Let's play this clip. This is his experience working. My primary bag was talking about race in the church, talking about how to address the issue of race in the church and what our

▶ Video Clip 9

Video Clip 9 [02:07:05] theology had to offer the conversation. So I proposed that idea. Deseret Book loved that idea. And they gave me the platform to talk about it and eventually gave me the rights to present and to share the course

Video Clip 9 [02:07:16] on my own. What happened? What happened to it?

Video Clip 9 [02:07:21] So ultimately, what happened to the course, like it is still like today, it has a happy ending. Like it is being taught. It is Online, anybody can Access it at btbacademy.thinkific.com it is available to anybody who wants to access it. But at the time, I had made the. I mean, you could call it a mistake, or you could call it a simple decision. I do not regret it. I don't think it was a mistake. But I had been critical of some of Elder Holland's words that he said regarding the queer

Video Clip 9 [02:07:50] community. And I was vocal about it. I didn't shy away from it. I was like, look, I don't like this. And I went so far as to call it satanic, which some people would say is incendiary language. And I can, of course, understand that.

Video Clip 9 [02:08:02] Yes.

Guest 5 [02:08:02] But I would say the exact same thing if I had an opportunity to do it all over again. And unfortunately, Deseret Book was not okay with that. They let me know that, hey, this is a little too hot for us to touch. We can't move forward with this. And through some conversation, we decided that ultimately they were not going to do it. They were not going to release the course on their platform. But they did make the decision, and they were kind enough to give me the rights to the course. That way, you know, people could still access it. So,

John Dehlin [02:08:32] wow, he pulled the satanic word. Let me do a quick correction. The Union Theological Seminary that I'm able to find on the Internet is in New York, the city of New York. And what I was referring to is the Graduate Theological Union, or the gtu, which is associated with UC Berkeley. So I. I got that wrong. Anyway, I just wanted to make sure I corrected the record. Anything you wanted to say about that clip you just played?

Meggan Hayes [02:09:03] I just thought it was interesting, his experience. It wasn't surprising at all. So I assume that he is referring to Jeffrey Holland's musket speech that he gave at byu. And after he gave that, then James came out and said, that's satanic to say that about LGBTQ people. And then Deseret Book was like, well, you had this great curriculum on how to handle race issues, and we can't have it anymore because now you're too incendiary. You criticized the leaders of church, even if the criticism maybe was true.

John Dehlin [02:09:40] Yeah. Well, we know. We know how that is received. We know how criticism is received in the church. Messengers are pretty much always killed. Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:09:52] Yeah. I mean, musket fire.

John Dehlin [02:09:54] Yeah. All right, let's play the next clip.

Guest 5 [02:09:58] One of the things I noticed, especially moving out here, is I will live in communities that have a significant black population, and we are not going to be represented proportionally in leadership. It wasn't until shortly after I moved to the Harlem ward that we finally had a black member of the bishopric. And that is just one thing. It's like, even in our own communities, we are not trusted to lead, which is a bit of a hard thing to observe. We always have and always have had Utah transplants that have been running things in the church.

John Dehlin [02:10:34] Okay, thoughts on. Thoughts on that?

Meggan Hayes [02:10:37] I thought it was a really good point, and it's something that I need to be more aware of because I'm a white person. And so it's not something that has affected me in the same way that it has affected him. But when I went to a congregation here, there were definitely white folks leading the congregation. And I live in an area where white people are 30% or less of the population. So it is something that happens, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:11:05] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. All right, let's. Let's go to the next clip.

Guest 5 [02:11:12] It wasn't that long ago that we struck a partnership with the naacp, which on the surface looks great. But then we had that incident earlier this year where the LDS church at Morehouse College, where Morehouse College inducted Portrait of Joseph Smith into their hall of Honor, and President Nelson was inducted into that same hall of Honor. And he's been the only person before or since to receive that Gandhi King Mandela Peace Prize inaugural. Only person. And I'm just like, what are we doing here? Like, what's going. What's going on? Like, what are we actually trying to get out of this partnership with the naacp?

Guest 5 [02:11:48] It feels transactional. I don't like it, and I don't know that it's going to be all that different in the future. I would love to see more progress in these I in this regard. And there's going to be progress because there has to be if the church wants to keep the members of the church it says it values. But I don't see us making that much progress between now and then, just based on what I've seen in the last, you know, 10 years, 20 years, my entire life.

John Dehlin [02:12:14] Thoughts, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:12:16] I have wondered how people felt about the relationship with the NAACP for a long time. And I think he's putting words to something that I've been thinking about where if the church really was trying to make amends and have partnerships with people of color so that they could learn, I think there would have to be an apology somewhere. And since that hasn't happened, it can look like a show. It can feel very transactional, where they're like, look at these Great. Look at this black friend that I have when

John Dehlin [02:12:47] it's worse than that, in my opinion. Go ahead. Were you. I don't want to cut you off. Well,

Meggan Hayes [02:12:52] just. Just when they haven't done anything to gain the trust of the black population and they're

John Dehlin [02:13:02] baptizing half of Africa, why doesn't that count, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:13:05] Because they're not being transparent about how they have treated people of color in the past.

John Dehlin [02:13:11] Yeah, yeah. To me, it's worse. It's worse because it's worse than saying, I have a black friend because what. And I had a former, you know, mission president, you know, bishop, former stake presidency member Roger Hendricks on Mormon stories once, and he was reflecting on the legacy of Russell M. Nelson, and he was basically heralding our work with the NAACP as some great example of Russell M. Nelson's legacy of improving race relations in the church. And what I think happened is the church PR Got together and said, how do we improve the church's image around race?

John Dehlin [02:14:02] Let's find a nonprofit we can donate some money to, and let's figure out what types of awards or press opportunities or photo ops can be staged in return for us donating a significantly small percentage of our wealth to try and create the impression that now we're good with black people. So it's slightly worse than, quote, having a black friend. It's basically paying your black friend to say good things about you and to maybe manufacture some fake award that he gives to you publicly for a photo op to try and shape impressions more favorably without doing any of the work of atonement and repentance and attrition and. And correction to make it all better.

Meggan Hayes [02:14:59] Yes. Yeah. And I. And I had those feelings. But there are often times where I get afraid as a white person to speak about it because it hasn't been my experience. So when I hear people of color putting their voices out, I want to amplify those because it explains what I've been thinking, and it comes from someone who has experienced it.

John Dehlin [02:15:20] Yeah. Well said, Meggan. Let's run the last clip.

▶ Video Clip 10

Video Clip 10 [02:15:26] I think one of the most important things the church can do is basically what it would expect me to do if I committed a great

Video Clip 10 [02:15:32] sin. I want the church to acknowledge it properly. I want them to apologize for it on an institutional level, actually apologize for it, and then engage in corrective behaviors to continue that apology. I always believe that the best apology is going to be changed behavior. But I would love to see a solemn assembly where the church formally acknowledges the sin of racism that we've committed against our black brothers and sisters and of course, the institutional effect of that sin, you know, that we've committed for more than 120 years. And then engage in behaviors to, you know, address it. Appoint more black leadership. Invest more in the black community and in initiatives that uplift black people in and outside of the church. Divest from things that actively cause us harm. Be more vocal. Be more willing to

Video Clip 10 [02:16:24] make

Video Clip 10 [02:16:25] people uncomfortable about racism when racism happens. Make racism an actual sin, not just an unsavory personality quirk. Take people's recommends away. You know, I don't feel like that is a lot to ask for.

John Dehlin [02:16:40] Yeah, I love. I love those recommendations. He's so thoughtful and those are great. Those are great steps. Any final thoughts on this, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:16:48] I want to let him have the last word on that because, yes, he's incredibly intelligent and he has some very good thoughts about this and his lived experience.

John Dehlin [02:16:58] Yeah. Well, kudos to James C. Jones for speaking up. I'm dying to know if he's an active, faithful, attending tck. Recommend holding believing member. Not that that would invalidate or undermine the importance or the truthfulness or the even the courageousness of his message, but man, I have a hard time thinking that guy's active and believing. But if he has more power to him, that's all I can say. The more that that are in the church, the better the church is going to. The healthier the church is going to be.

Meggan Hayes [02:17:29] Yes. And I didn't get a sense one way or the other. Like the second, I would think, oh, he's probably not active. Then he would say something, he'd be like, maybe so. And I didn't. Didn't dig into it too much. But he's got great Instagram videos, too. And then that whole Mormon land episode was really good.

John Dehlin [02:17:45] Yeah. Well, let's turn to a positive news story.

Meggan Hayes [02:17:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:52] Promising cancer discovery at byu. Let's hear about it.

Meggan Hayes [02:17:55] Yeah. So researchers are developing an experimental approach to cancer treatment right. At byu. And the. Let's see. Go ahead and go to the next slide.

John Dehlin [02:18:04] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [02:18:06] This the gentleman on the left in the picture. His name is Kim o' Neal and he has been doing cancer research for a very long time. He's done tons of journal articles, a lot of studies. Very well renowned in his field. Experimental cancer therapy shows early promise. Moto car engineers immune cells called macrophages to recognize and attack solid tumors. And in their preliminary studies, 90% fewer aggressive lung cancer cells In a Laboratory experiment, after 24 hours and 46% maximum tumor size reduction in mice following an experimental treatment regimen. So it's not yet a treatment, and they haven't done human trials. More testing, funding, and independent scientific review are needed, but they're heading in that direction. And I just. I thought that was really cool and significant that that's happening at BYU.

John Dehlin [02:19:02] Yeah, like that. With 300 billion plus dollars in assets and infinite money, curing cancer, solving world hunger, you know, eliminating literacy, illiteracy, or poverty, These are the types of positive opportunities the Mormon Church has in the future, and I hope it will. You know, we could say ending child. Ending systemic child abuse. There's so much good that the church could do with its massive hoard of wealth, and I'm. I'm happy to see it doing things like this, and I hope it will continue.

Meggan Hayes [02:19:47] Same. Yes, by all means, get some treatments that slow cancer down. Even curing it would be amazing, but

John Dehlin [02:19:55] yeah, yeah. And with the med school there at byu, eventually, that's going to be awesome. I'm very hopeful. I think the church does and can do a lot of good with its time and influence and money and with its membership, and I believe that it can, and I hope that it will.

Meggan Hayes [02:20:16] Same? Yeah.

The Nauvoo Rose Legend and Temple Square

John Dehlin [02:20:18] All right, what's this big Nauvoo Rose about?

Meggan Hayes [02:20:23] So this is from the headline from the Church News under Living Faith, a Nauvoo roses return to Temple Square, following the legend of a rose's pioneer journey from Nauvoo, Illinois, to Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [02:20:35] All right, I'm dying to hear.

Meggan Hayes [02:20:36] Yeah. The legend of the Nauvoo Rose, a treasured pioneer story passed down through generations. In 1840, according to the legend, pioneer Elizabeth Payne Hobley left Nauvoo behind and arrived in the Salt Lake Valley carrying a small rose plant in a teapot. In the 1880s, family accounts say the rose was carefully kept by the Hobleys for decades, then given to the gardens at Temple Square. The plant became known as the Nauvoo Rose, a symbol of pioneer perseverance, home, and the things families carried west.

John Dehlin [02:21:11] Wow.

Meggan Hayes [02:21:12] Temple Square gardeners passed along both the plant and its story, caring for the rose and sharing cuttings so it could survive. So that

John Dehlin [02:21:20] is

Meggan Hayes [02:21:21] the legend. How? John, don't get too excited yet. Well,

John Dehlin [02:21:25] I just want to say I'm doing the Brigham Young podcast right now, and we literally just, just this week recorded the episode of Brigham Young taking his caravan of 150 people, including my great, great grandfather, Apostle Ezra T. Benson. They we covered the trek in spring and summer of 1847 from winter quarters to the Salt Lake Valley. And the idea of one of those caravans of pioneers with. With all their hardship, one of the women carrying a rose in a. In a little potted, you know, pot, and guarding it and protecting it for months of rain and storms and snow and heat and exhaustion. I love the idea of that story. Now burst my bubble, Meggan. Go ahead. Burst my first. My bubble.

Meggan Hayes [02:22:22] So the actual history. There is no confirmed evidence that Elizabeth Payne Hobley carried a rose plant from Nauvoo to the Salt Lake Valley in 1849. I know. You know it

John Dehlin [02:22:32] is.

Meggan Hayes [02:22:34] A church history consultant, Emily Crumpton Deason, found that Hobley did not come to the United States until 1861 and never lived in Nauvoo. The 1975 Church News article helped popularize the story, but it did not say the rose was given to Temple square in the 1880s. The documented temple Square chain appears to begin in the 1950s or 1960s, when grounds supervisor Irvin T. Nelson likely received a cutting from an older woman and planted it near the assembly hall. The Elizabeth Hubble name and teapot rose narrative were then passed down orally through Temple Square gardeners and caretakers. Historians now think the current rose may descend from cuttings associated with nauvoo in the 20th century, but the pioneer era origin story remains unverified. And the church knew. Actually said this in the article, which I thought was. Was good.

John Dehlin [02:23:34] So she never even lived in Nauvoo.

Meggan Hayes [02:23:37] No, but it's a really cute story.

John Dehlin [02:23:42] I mean, it's, you know, just okay. Because we covered a lot of heavy stuff today. Every people has their myths, you know, Zeus didn't exist, Achilles and Hercules didn't exist. Did Buddha ever exist? But stories and legends and fables are the stuff cultures are made of. And so I'm giving the church the pass on this one. And I'm sure you are too, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [02:24:11] Absolutely. Yeah. If you have a beautiful rose plant and you're caring for it, that's awesome. I have a whole corner of plants over here, and I talk to them like they're my children, so take care of the roses.

John Dehlin [02:24:23] And if you've got a beautiful story that makes you feel good. I was at the family member last night, and she's a faithful, devout member of the church. And she literally said to me, opiate for the masses. And I'm like, in a. In a religious context. I'm like, what did you just say? And she's just like, the church makes you happy. And like, people need happiness. And I'm just like, yeah, man. Yeah. There's good and bad. And there's problems, obviously, but to the extent to which the church can make people happy, happy when it's not too much at other people's expense, I'm like, thumbs up, LDS Church, make people happy. Go, go. And if it's, if it's a myth about roses that does that, more power to it. Keep it coming.

Meggan Hayes [02:25:07] Yep. I love it. I love a good story like that. I could just picture her little teapot and like,

John Dehlin [02:25:14] yeah, I love it. Couple super chats Shishi Wolf thanks for the super chat. She says flip those tables. She's encouraging table flipping. Meggan I don't know if that's healthy or good, but we appreciate the support. The super chat. Lavender A2 writes, thank you for your work in shining light on these topics. And yes, thank you, Meggan, for all the amazing work you do. What the heck is Russell Westbrook doing on the freaking Mormon News podcast?

Lighter News, Celebrity Tidbits, and Closing Thoughts

Meggan Hayes [02:25:45] I got sent this picture,

John Dehlin [02:25:47] but

Meggan Hayes [02:25:48] you can talk about who he is because I had to look at. I didn't know who he was, but I got sent this picture by like five listeners.

John Dehlin [02:25:53] Russell Westbrook is one of the best NBA players of the past 20 years. He believe, I believe he played, I want to say played for a PAC 12 team like the University of Oklahoma or Arizona, but one of the players with the most triple doubles in the history of the NBA. He was on that original Oklahoma Thunder team that had Kevin Durant and James Harden. He's gone on to play, oh, I don't know, for the, for the Thunder, for the Clippers, for a lot of teams, the Nuggets. He's gone around and bounced around to a lot of teams. Doesn't have a great shooting percentage, but he's a record breaker for triple doubles. He's a fun player to watch and sometimes a bit of a hothead. But what's, what's, what's he doing on the Mormon News podcast?

Meggan Hayes [02:26:48] So NBA star Russell Westbrook photographed at XS nightclub in Las Vegas wearing a white shirt with what appears to be LDS temple garment markings on

John Dehlin [02:26:58] it.

Meggan Hayes [02:27:00] So I did zoom in. I mean, it looks like a garment top to me. I mean, where did he even get this? Oh

John Dehlin [02:27:06] my gosh, there's a compass. There's literally a compass on his breast and Masonic compass sign.

Meggan Hayes [02:27:17] I know. So that's why people were sending this to me. And I was like, that is totally a garment top.

John Dehlin [02:27:23] Where and when did this appear? Recently?

Meggan Hayes [02:27:25] Yeah, just this last week.

John Dehlin [02:27:27] That's wild. That is definitely a Mormon tumble top. Now the question is, was it A stylistic choice. Was it a. Was it a barb or was it just a total mistake? And is this guy, like, dumpster diving or going to di to get his T shirts? Like, what the heck?

Meggan Hayes [02:27:46] I know. I don't know. There was no. Because this picture was posted on the XS nightclub website, so it wasn't posted on his social media. There was no explanation behind what he was wearing.

John Dehlin [02:27:57] That's wild.

Meggan Hayes [02:27:59] But, yeah, the comments, like, made me laugh. So it's Maddie, 27, said, not Russell Westbrook wearing a Mormon garment top. And then

John Dehlin [02:28:09] that's. Is that Matt Easton, the BYU graduate who is gay?

Meggan Hayes [02:28:14] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:28:15] His. His graduation talk.

Meggan Hayes [02:28:19] That look. That picture does look like him. I didn't click further to see who it was, but that very well,

John Dehlin [02:28:24] maybe the musket fire recipient. Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:28:28] Yeah. So Vuy King said, Russell wears his garments more than me, and I'm endowed.

John Dehlin [02:28:34] That's good.

Meggan Hayes [02:28:36] Grant Nielsen said Russ's short time in Utah must have left an impression.

John Dehlin [02:28:42] Oh, he was traded to the Jazz, but I. By the Clippers, I think. But I think he. He ended up getting bought out or declining to come. I. I don't know how much or if he ever really played for the Jazz.

Meggan Hayes [02:28:56] Well, his short time in Utah impressed him very much. So you can see. Okay, so then Orthocardia said, gotta get baptized first. Then they tagged him.

John Dehlin [02:29:07] That's usually the order. That is the recommended order.

Meggan Hayes [02:29:11] And then J, M C I L mo L I said, covenant Keeper.

John Dehlin [02:29:17] Yeah, he's not a covenant breaker.

Meggan Hayes [02:29:21] Yeah, it's just funny. Like, I was just laughing. This is like the third or fourth time, I think, in the past three months where very popular people have shown up on their Instagram wearing garment tops as a shirt.

John Dehlin [02:29:33] Yeah. And I'm, I'm not condemning anyone who has done this, but I'll say personally, as an influencer, dressing up in temple clothes or publicly showing temple garments for me is a step too far. I, I have been willing to, to do the, the slitting of the throat or the disemboweling because I, I participated in that activity, but also because the church has, has mothballed it. So it's not like when I do this, I'm, like, actually showing current sacred temple rituals. I'm just experiencing the barbaric Masonic garbage that I had to do when I went through the temple. But I don't. For me, I haven't chosen to mock the temple garments or the temple clothes publicly. And again, if others have, I'm. I'm guessing There could be artistic or ethical reasons to do that.

Meggan Hayes [02:30:28] Well, it's like on my channel this week, I was asking people if they were called to an excommunication, would they. Would they go? And everyone's answers were so different. And it's that same thing. It's like, I think I would, because it would be incredibly good for me to sit there and realize that those people have no power over me. Because for so long, I would just clam up the minute that a man in a position of authority was in the room. And so it would be a really good, like, exposure therapy type thing for me to go there and be like, that's okay. You don't have any power over me. However, for other people, they're like, I just don't care. No, I wouldn't show up. And so it's just different for everybody.

John Dehlin [02:31:07] Well, I love the comment from Sloper, 1827. He says that's why Alyssa Grenfell and Russell Westbrook have more followers than me. And he's referring to Grenfell wearing garments or temple clothes. And no shade on Alyssa. We all worship. We all worship you, Alyssa Grenfell as the true queen

Meggan Hayes [02:31:26] of

John Dehlin [02:31:26] Mormon. Social media, right?

Meggan Hayes [02:31:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:31:32] Well, this is surprising. I thought Jen Affleck was almost richer than Mormon Heavenly Father. The headline is, Jen Affleck alleges major financial loss. Is that just a divorce ploy? Tell us what's going on there.

Meggan Hayes [02:31:46] So I threw this slide in at the last minute because the new season of Secret Lives for Mormon Wives, Orange, Orange county edition, came out last night. I have not watched it, but the news that followed that was this. So she claims that Zach secretly lost savings through crypto and gambling. More than $100,000 is allegedly missing from their shared bank account. She checked their account after questioning Zach's honesty and says the money was gone. She described earlier episodes involving online poker, sports betting, and cryptocurrency. She filed for divorce after seven years of marriage and is pregnant with their fourth child.

John Dehlin [02:32:26] Okay, what are your thoughts there?

Meggan Hayes [02:32:29] It actually makes me sad because I have seen so. I mean, and she is the breadwinner. So she is actually in a different spot than a lot of Mormon women who end up in these types of situations where, like, I was taught that you get married, it's an eternal marriage, you make covenants, that's it for forever. And so when things got really hard in my marriage, I did not consider that there was a way out. And so she's talking about how this has happened over and over and over again.

Meggan Hayes [02:33:04] And I see that happen to Mormon women so often where the same thing happens, but they're like, well, it's gonna be better. You know, we went to the bishop and he repented. And to see this cycle repeat, I'm.

Meggan Hayes [02:33:22] I don't know what's going on in their marriage. But I. From what I can see from the recent news, I'm glad that she is finally saying enough is enough, because I think it's really hard for Mormon women to do when they are conditioned that they are the help meet, that they are second class, and that their marriage is forever. So I think it's super brave of her to say no more because she's the breadwinner, she's making all this money. And then if he's going out and blowing it all on gambling, like, that makes it even worse, I think, is that he's not even earning this money.

John Dehlin [02:33:59] So I did see Zach come out with some type of apology recently saying that he had betrayed or disappointed Jen in some significant way. And I don't. I'm not surprised that he's a crypto bro or a gambler. My impression is that she can do one brand deal that's worth six figures. Like, my impression is she's a multi, multi, multi, multi, multi millionaire at this point with their own now TV franchise or sub franchise. So I don't know, like, should we be. Should we have crocodile tears that. That Jen Affleck has lost some money from her husband losing a hundred thousand bucks, or is that like the Mormon Church kind of like a drop in the bucket to how wealthy she actually is? And I don't know. So I don't know how many crocodile tears to shed for Jen Affleck, but, you know.

Meggan Hayes [02:34:57] Yeah, I just. I just think it's hard for women who have been conditioned in Mormonism to stand up to the men, even if, like Jen, she is the one who is providing for them financially.

John Dehlin [02:35:12] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:35:14] To hurt for her to say no. Do. Do I think she's gonna, you know, be living in a shelter now with her children? Absolutely. Absolutely not. A hundred thousand dollars might not mean a whole lot to her. And it's probably not about the money per se, as the betrayal as the dishonesty.

John Dehlin [02:35:32] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:35:33] And I've watched all of the previous seasons, and I think Jen still has a lot of unpacking to do when it comes to Mormonism. So maybe this is a step in the right direction of her feeling more autonomous. We shall see.

John Dehlin [02:35:49] Well, on that last note, and on the note of the secret lies of Mormon Wise, Orange County. Will you allow me to close a slight little humble dad brag? Is that okay?

Meggan Hayes [02:36:01] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:36:02] So I'm going to do a dad brag, but it's actually relevant to this episode. So what I'm showing you now is my daughter Maya Delin's Instagram account. And my daughter Maya is a photographer in LA and her main job is a red carpet photographer. So as I'm kind of scrolling through Maya's Instagram, do you, do you recognize any of these people, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:36:29] I probably should.

John Dehlin [02:36:31] So there's. I think that's Jennifer Lawrence, right? J. Law. I know. She's, um, she's photographed, you know, pretty much every star that's out there. I think that's Ariana Grande. You know, I think our viewers and listeners will know a lot of these names. Who does, who sings? Pink Pony Club? That's.

Meggan Hayes [02:36:56] Oh, Chapel Roan.

John Dehlin [02:36:57] Chapel Roan. I'm. I'm embarrassed that I can't rifle off the names of Maya's. Of all the people that Maya has photographed. But Maya has at times been asked to be a photographer for Four Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. And so just this week, actually, one of the photos of hers of, of one of the participants, I guess, of Secret Lies of Mormon Wives, it's Aspen Ovard. I don't know who that is or if she is in fact one of the Secret Lies of Mormon Wives Orange County. I think she is. But on the Cosmopolitan page under Secret Lives of Mormon Wives Orange county, you can see a photo of Aspen Ovard. And the credit down there at the bottom left to Maya Delynn.

Meggan Hayes [02:37:48] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:37:49] In this case, Disney. So I'm proud of my daughter Maya. She often comes to back to Utah to do private photo shoots. She does couple shoots, she does private shoots, she does business shoots, she does commercial shoots, she does celebrity shoots, she'll even do boudoir shoots. And she doesn't need my hyping. But I couldn't help it because she actually is a photographer at times for Secret Lives of Mormon Wives Orange County. And again, her Instagram for anyone interested in following her or even hiring her. I think she's coming over Christmas break. Maya Delin Photo. I'm not paid to endorse her. I'm just proud of her and I love her. And that's all I have to say about that.

Meggan Hayes [02:38:35] That's amazing. Now my degree is in photography and design and her work is really well done. Well done, Maya. It's amazing

John Dehlin [02:38:45] and I'm not sure, like, I'm curious. I would like to hear, poll our audience on Mormon Stories as to whether or not they would want us to cover Secret lives of Mormon Wives Orange County. Part of me feels like, how can we not? It's Mormon and it's in the news and it's all the cultural race. And part of me just sees that whole franchise as like, a shit show that's toxic and unhealthy for the individuals and the couples and the families that are involved. And part of me just doesn't want to support. Support the. The franchise.

Meggan Hayes [02:39:22] Right. Is it ethical? Yeah. And I, I go back and forth between those as well. Like, is it ethical to continue to support a show that is filming mental breakdowns of people who need serious interventions? Like, it's. It's hard. It's hard. But there is so many Mormon things that happen that are really important for us to talk about. And so,

John Dehlin [02:39:47] yeah, it's hard. Well, if our viewers and listeners think that Secret Lies are Mormon Wives Orange county or just Vanilla Secret Lies or Mormon Wives, something's happening in there that's worth covering. Will you please email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com or comment on this episode?

John Dehlin [02:40:06] We would really appreciate that. While you're at it, please like and subscribe to this channel right now. Into this episode. Please comment. Please also like and subscribe to generally unquotable on all the platforms while you're at it. And again, just to remind everybody, we want to get Meggan Paid what she deserves. I refreshed, and we obtained three recurring donations to the Mormon News podcast during this live stream. So thank you to the three of you who actually became subscribers. If we can get that to 100, we're 11 left.

John Dehlin [02:40:48] And we want Meggan to be paid what she deserves for bringing us this weekly show. So if you are not already a Mormon Stories donor, or if you, you know, and only if you have the money, or if you are already a Mormon Stories donor, but you also want to support Meggan in this effort, go to mormonnews.com, click on the donate button, become a monthly subscriber. What if by next week we can report a hundred out of the tens of thousands of you who enjoy this content, and I would say maybe 3,000 donors to Mormon Stories podcast. So let's not get confused. It's not like Mormon Stories has 20,000 donors and those are the listeners to this show.

John Dehlin [02:41:37] Mormon Stories never has more than a few thousand donors in any given year. So, like, certainly, let's make it so that by the next Mormon News show, we've got at least 100 subscribers to the Mormon News podcast, donor supporters, on top of the few thousand donors and supporters we have on Mormon News. Meggan, any final things you want to say to close out?

Meggan Hayes [02:42:04] Have a good weekend. This was a great show. I love the conversations that are happening in the live chat. As always, I have so much more to think about now than when I came into the show, and even when the topics are heavy, I think they're important. So I love everyone for sticking around.

John Dehlin [02:42:23] Amen. Thanks to Trevanon for being a trusty, reliable moderator. Thank you, Trevin on Also thanks to Brooklyn and Julia for all they do in pre and post production. And again, Meggan, you planned this. You work hard all week long to learn about these stories and then to create the videos and the content. So thank you, Meggan. And generally unquotable. You're a great part of the Mormon Stories family now, and this is an incredibly successful part of our show by any standard. And I'm honored to be your colleague in what we do each week.

Meggan Hayes [02:43:03] Well, thank you, John. It is an honor to be here and to be in this space where we all get to have this connection. It helps me just as much as it helps anybody else, and I do not take that lightly.

John Dehlin [02:43:22] Well, it shows in your work and in your demeanor and your professionalism. So thanks, Meggan. You're the best. Thanks for joining us today on the Mormon News podcast and on Mormon Stories Podcast. Please be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on next week's episode, hopefully of the Mormon News podcast. Mormon Stories Podcast and generally unquotable. Thanks, everybody. And we made it under three hours. Good job. Good job, Meggan. Take care, everybody. See you soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.