Introducing the Hosts and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is October 17, 2023 and we are now covering part two of our series on a book that has taken the Mormon church and Mormon prepper church culture by storm. The book is Visions of Glory.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] The author of the book is Tom Harrison, Mormon therapist Tom Harrison and we just spent a good five and a quarter, five and a half hours talking about Tom Harrison, his history, his claims, his connections to all sorts of alleged criminals. I don't know, I think that's accurate. Not that he, I'm not saying he's trying to be a criminal, but he seems to sprout criminal behavior allegedly. And we talked about, we did a deep dive into his book Visions of Glory which is a book that he published in 2012 with a co author scribe named John Pontius who has passed away under the pseudonym Spencer where he talks about his three near death experiences and he talks about the, the second coming of Jesus Mormon style, Mormon prepper style and all the activities and visions and mayhem that's going to lead up to that, including the white cities, etc.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] Etc. So that was part one and we promised to come back for part two because if that weren't enough we, we discussed as a setup to last episode the connections to several recent global news stories. Chad Daybell, Lori Valow, several murders associated with them. Tim Ballard, CEO of Operation Underground Railroad.

John Dehlin [00:02:04] You know, he now has several sexual allegations against him and allegations of fraud. And and then of course we have Ruby, Ruby, Frankie, the Eight Passengers YouTube channel and therapist Jody Hildebrandt. All of those criminals or alleged criminals or people who are in jail have deep connections to Tom Harrison and the book Visions of Glory and we're going to be talking about that more here in part two.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] And joining us traveling here from all the different places they live. First we have the Lauren Mathias, the 50% of the Hidden True Crime YouTube channel. Hey Lauren.

Lauren Mathias [00:02:55] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] You ready to go? More like is five and a half

Lauren Mathias [00:02:57] hours not enough ready to go?

John Dehlin [00:02:59] You want to do another two or three?

Lauren Mathias [00:03:00] Why not?

John Dehlin [00:03:01] Anything else you want to add to the. I know you're. We're doing a joint simulcast to my audience and yours. Anything you want to add as an intro?

Lauren Mathias [00:03:11] No, thank you. Yeah, hit in a True Crime Podcast YouTube channel or, or podcast. Thank you for, for having me. I'm so grateful we can do this collaboration. John and I have been talking about this along with the two other guests we have here for, for so long. And I think it's.

Megan Connor [00:03:28] It's just.

Lauren Mathias [00:03:28] It's due time and I'm grateful we're rocking this all out tonight, part one and two.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Yeah. And if you're interested in. In true crime, especially covering Utah, Idaho, Arizona, honestly, a lot of Mormon themes. Lauren has a career as a reporter, as a journalist, and she's carried that into with her forensic psychologist husband, Dr. John. So check them out if you want to check out the latest on Tim Ballard. You know, the. The daybell Valo case, Ruby, Frankie, she's got it all and more. Right.

Lauren Mathias [00:04:06] Yeah, yeah, we. We cover crimes from all over. It's just that Mormons keep delivering content these days, so I'm probably gonna have to start a channel with John called called Mormon Hidden True Crime Stories or something. But yeah, we cover. We cover crime. We delve into crime.

Guest [00:04:25] We.

Lauren Mathias [00:04:25] We've deep. For four years, we've covered the Lori Valo, Chad Dabel case. And then we. We've been covering Jody Hildebrandt and we've been covering. Yeah, every. And Tim Ballard.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] All right. Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [00:04:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:41] All right. So also joining us today, back on Mormon Stories is the Megan Connor. Hey, Megan.

Mindy Caldwell [00:04:47] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] Megan is known. She had her own Mormon Stories episode. Was it one or multiple?

Megan Connor [00:04:53] I think it was just one back in May.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] And Megan is Lori Valo's cousin. First cousin, correct.

Megan Connor [00:05:00] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] And so she grew up spending summers with. With Lori's family because. Because it was her family.

Lauren Mathias [00:05:08] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] And she's also super smart and informed and wise about all these issues. So we're so grateful you'd come out of state to join us.

Megan Connor [00:05:18] Thank you so much for having me.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] Thanks for having us, Megan. And we have my. My brilliant, wise book club friend, super sleuther. She wields her binders with force.

Mindy Caldwell [00:05:31] And yes, I do.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] The Mindy Caldwell. Hey, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [00:05:36] Hi. Glad to be back. I'm glad we're doing this all in one night.

Guest 2 [00:05:39] This is fun.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] Happy anniversary to you and Steve.

Mindy Caldwell [00:05:41] Thank you. Happy anniversary, Steve. I love you.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] Is Steve gonna not forgive me for keeping you here all day during your anniversary?

Mindy Caldwell [00:05:49] He'll get over it. He'll be fine. We have plans to celebrate otherwise.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] Yeah. And. And Mindy, you are. Megan was responsible for the. The main structure and of part one. Mindy, you kind of took the lead here for part two.

Mindy Caldwell [00:06:04] I did, yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] So we really appreciate that.

Mindy Caldwell [00:06:06] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] Yeah. And. And of course, we welcome everyone joining us on the live streams, YouTube, Facebook, etc. I want to start by just thanking everyone who donates to Mormon Stories in the Open Stories Foundation. Oh. All of this is because of those of you who are monthly donors who go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button and become monthly donors. We always appreciate super chats here on YouTube. And then, Lauren, how do people support you if they want to support you and John?

Lauren Mathias [00:06:32] Yeah, thank you. Patreon.com Hidden True Crime we do episodes there, and. And we have also have a book club. In fact, we have a book club this Wednesday where we do a movie club and a book club, and we do a live zoom for everyone. And that's through patreon.com hidden true crime as well. This Wednesday, we're covering Abducted Was Abducted in Plain Sight about the East Idaho family. That Sky Borgman documentary on Netflix. It's a few years old now, but.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] Oh, that was a good one.

Mindy Caldwell [00:07:00] Oh, that was a good one.

Lauren Mathias [00:07:00] Yeah. Yeah. Another Mormon crime.

Mindy Caldwell [00:07:03] The girl gets kidnapped by the same man.

Lauren Mathias [00:07:05] Correct. Twice. Correct. So we'll be discussing that on Live Zoom and. And you can join that through Patreon.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] All right. All right, so we're in for another round. Mindy, do you want to. Do you want to kind of kick this off and guide us through a little bit?

Mindy Caldwell [00:07:21] Sure. So we decided that we would talk about. We feel like we covered the book Visions of Glory adequately in our previous episode.

John Dehlin [00:07:29] Thoroughly.

Mindy Caldwell [00:07:30] Thoroughly. And so we thought that for this episode, we would talk about the more current connections to Tom Harrison as the therapist and local therapist and the influence that he's had in the community, sometimes connected to the book Visions of Glory and sometimes separate from that. But we feel like it's important to highlight these connections because as John mentioned in the introduction, many of these connections to Tom have resulted in some criminal and somewhat disturbing behavior and have gotten a lot of national and global recognition. So that's why we feel connected to this.

Mindy Caldwell [00:08:16] This first episode, that it would be important to. To highlight some of these. These stories. So some of this will be a little bit of a repeat. We'll try to get through this quickly, but we also want to take the time to. To touch on things thoroughly and so you have an understanding of. Of these.

Mindy Caldwell [00:08:33] These connections. So I have a hard time saying the word connections now because of Jody Hilton. Every time I find myself, I think I've studied so much. I know I've studied so much of these videos and podcasts, and I'm like, oh, every time I say the word connections, I cringe a little bit.

Lauren Mathias [00:08:49] But I can't say distortion either. You know, I can't say something distorted because I'm like, no, that's Jody Hildebrandt. She ruined that for me.

Megan Connor [00:08:56] That's okay, Mindy. You are not not enough.

Mindy Caldwell [00:08:59] That is you are not. Not enough is the name of Jodi Hildebrandt's book. It's an interesting title. Okay. And we will get to Jody Hildebrandt later on, but first we're just going to recap and touch on Chad and Lori Dable because I. Lori Daybell. Because. Are we calling her Lori Daybell? Are we calling her Lori Valo? Lori Valo. Daybell either works.

The Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell Case

Lauren Mathias [00:09:21] Lori Valo.

Megan Connor [00:09:22] Yeah, either works. And it's hard because the Vallows don't want her to be called Valo. The Daybells don't want her to be called Daybell, but she's kind of both. And legally, in the trial, they called her Valo because legally, her name is Valo.

Mindy Caldwell [00:09:32] So. Okay.

Megan Connor [00:09:33] All right, whatever. You.

Mindy Caldwell [00:09:36] I think we start with them because I think their case is the most tragic of all of them. We' the victims in this case of Lori Valo's children, JJ and Tyler, who were murdered. Chad's wife Tammy was murdered.

Mindy Caldwell [00:09:53] Lori's. I think we refer to him as her ex, but he wasn't her ex at the time. They were still currently married. So her current. Her husband, Charles Valo was murdered and possibly there could be other. Other deaths associated with.

Mindy Caldwell [00:10:09] So there was an attempt on. On. On Brandon Boudreau's life. He was the niece of Lori. He was Lori Valo's niece's husband or estranged husband. There was attempt on his life. So there's just a lot of criminal behavior with this group. So we figured that they would be the. The starting point. And we did cover a lot of. A lot of this case in our last episode. But we'll touch on a few things that we didn't cover last time. One thing that you mentioned.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] JJ and Tylee. Right?

Mindy Caldwell [00:10:38] Did I mention them by name? It's important to mention their names.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] People were saying to say their names.

Lauren Mathias [00:10:42] And so, yes, JJ and Tyler. She did.

Mindy Caldwell [00:10:45] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:10:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] Thank you. Sorry.

Mindy Caldwell [00:10:47] Yes, thank you for the reminder. We can say their names a lot. So one thing we didn't mention is that Laurie was a fan of the book Visions of Glory long before she met Chad. And so by the time she and Chad's paths crossed, she was already swimming in these waters of, like, near death experiences, end times. And so Laurie meets Chad at a conference where he is speaking about his visions and he makes reference to, to a part of the book in Visions of Glory. And so we have a video clip. Lauren, do you want to talk about this video clip?

Lauren Mathias [00:11:30] Yeah. And I want to say too that this is a Preparing a people conference. And while preparing a people conference no longer exists because I think Chad gave it a bad name. It's now Latter Day media is still run by the James's Mike and Nancy James. So this preparing people conference is one of the many conferences that gave Chad Dabel a platform and one of the many that, you know, many of the people that attend this conference read the book Visions of Glory and we're going to delve into those conferences, into these people. So I just want to set that stage. That's really important. And so yes, in this little clip we're about to play, I put this together, I scripted this, but you are going to hear a voice referred to Spencer.

Lauren Mathias [00:12:11] And this is Chad Daybell speaking at that conference. And it's actually the day he meets Lori Valo that the speech Chad gave to Lori Valo is on our channel Hidden True Crime. We're the only ones that have that speech. And this is taken from that speech. He actually mentions Spencer and Visions of Glory in that speech.

Mindy Caldwell [00:12:30] And there's also a little bit with the, with Anna that you interviewed where she was part of the prepper community and she.

Lauren Mathias [00:12:38] Yes, and Anna was a member of avow, another voice of warning. And so she brings up Visions of Glory. So AVOW is the prepper website located in Rexburg. That's also another major player in giving Chad Daybell his platform. And Anna is an ex member of avow, sharing what she's. Yeah. Discovered and what she thinks really affected the belief system as she mentions Visions of Lori.

John Dehlin [00:13:04] Should we play it?

Mindy Caldwell [00:13:05] Let's play it.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] All right, let's roll the clip.

Lauren Mathias [00:13:08] According to multiple sources, including family, Lori also loved the book Visions of Glory by John Pontius. Pontius passed away from cancer shortly after his book's publication and remained a member of the LDS Church at death. But his book too has been controversial. It revolves around a man named Spencer and Spencer's multiple near death experiences and visions. Pontius interviewed Spencer for his book and declares Spencer's visions as truth.

John Dehlin [00:13:38] I believe the 10 tribes have great

Guest [00:13:40] gifts that we don't understand.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] In Spencer's book Visions of Glory, he

Guest [00:13:45] talks about how they can just mold rock. They can take a tree and tell

John Dehlin [00:13:49] it to be a chair, something like that, and the tree will obey.

Lauren Mathias [00:13:55] I found the real Spencer during my research and he's a therapist From Salt Lake City, Utah. His real name is Tom Harrison. After asking Harrison many questions, he mailed me a letter he had written to leaders of his LDS congregation in 2014. I read a part of the letter to one of our interviewees named Anna, who also brought up the controversy and prominence of the book Visions of Glory. Here is a snippet from that interview. I don't know that I'd ever heard of portals before. Visions of Glory. Okay. And you know, Mike Stroud started talking about portals. Chad talked about portals. But yeah, I think it's really influenced. It's really influenced people, she says.

Mindy Caldwell [00:14:43] Right?

Lauren Mathias [00:14:44] To say the least.

John Dehlin [00:14:46] So what do you guys take from that as being kind of essential takeaways?

Lauren Mathias [00:14:50] The prominence of the book? I think that this, this group. So, so again, these conferences, it's being talked about that this is. Well though. So again, Anna's in a Vow, a prepper website that does visions and you know, visions and dreams and prepping in Rexburg, Idaho. And then you have the preparing people conference and Chad is talking about it. Then she mentions Mike Stroud. He's now an excommunicated member from Arizona. He was a seminary teacher for years. And he's talking about it. Julie Rose talking about it. This book is taking this group of like minded Mormons by storm. It is well known. Even if you've never heard of this book, I think it's really important to say because I hadn't heard of this book until the Day Bell case. But it's really important that even if you haven't heard about this book, this book is making waves.

Mindy Caldwell [00:15:45] Absolutely. I think that the next clips that we want to talk about. Oh, before we do that, we, we did mention in the previous episode about the, the video from Hawaii where the police approached Lori and Chad poolside. We don't have to show the whole video again, but I do think we have a clip of that. If you can show that a photo

John Dehlin [00:16:05] and just everyone pay attention to the book that's under Lori Val's right knee. This is after all the deaths, all the deaths, all the chill of the children of the ex spouses of the spouses check out while they're in Hawaii at the poolside. What book is under Lori Vallow's knee?

Lauren Mathias [00:16:27] And it's really full circle. Here we have the speech that Chad gave when he, when he's meeting Laurie for the first time mentioning it. And here he is now with his new wife after a murder spree, reading it. This book is clearly not just. This book. Clearly, clearly has played A major role in their belief system.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] Yeah. For those who can't see, the, the Visions of Glory book is, is right there on the beach lounge chair under, under Lori Vallow's knee and Chad's kind of bending over, you know, checking at least the book out.

Megan Connor [00:17:03] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [00:17:03] And I, and should I. Is this a good time to also state that I do know from three separate sources once again that Tom Harrison was meeting with Chad Daybell and Julie Rowe from three extremely reliable sources? Now I have that information and we

John Dehlin [00:17:21] don't have a video clip. That's just a still. Is that right, Mindy?

Mindy Caldwell [00:17:24] Yeah, we showed the video clip in the first episode. I don't think we need to, to show that again.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] Okay, cool.

Braxton Southwick and the Visions of Glory Book

Mindy Caldwell [00:17:31] Lori, or excuse me, Lauren, had the opportunity to interview a gentleman by the name of Braxton Southwick. Megan, do you want to tell us about Braxton?

Megan Connor [00:17:40] Well, Braxton is another one of my cousins, also lived in the California area when we were kids. We did spend a little time together during the summers. Braxton became an extreme prepper. He appeared on many, many episodes of, I think it was a Discovery Channel documentary about prepping and, and went around lots, lots of different places and on, on different radio shows and everything, talking about his, his prepping and really became a part of, you know, this extreme prepper community. You know, he was, he was, is still, I think, very, very big into that. And he's also not a fan of mine.

Mindy Caldwell [00:18:22] So.

Lauren Mathias [00:18:24] And to clarify, if you're wondering, yes, because he is Megan Connor's cousin. He is also Lori Vallow's cousin and he has shared that he gave Laurie visions of Glory, that they have talked about Visions of Glory a lot. So he has, he said that this book was the book that they talked about. And so yes, I'm very grateful. I, I interviewed your cousin and Lori, Val's cousin, for two hours and we talked about a lot about Visions of Glory and prepping.

Mindy Caldwell [00:18:58] So yeah, I think we can roll the first clip with Braxton. And in this clip, he, he talks about how he and Laurie often discussed the book Visions of Glory.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] All right, let's roll it.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:19:11] Who would you and you, who would you and Lori talk about together when you would talk about your like minded beliefs? When it came to the prepping community, who did you discuss?

Video Clip 1 [00:19:22] Just the books. Nobody.

Video Clip 1 [00:19:24] Which books? Which books?

Video Clip 1 [00:19:27] The biggest one was Visions of Glory.

Video Clip 1 [00:19:30] Okay.

Video Clip 1 [00:19:31] That was just a great book. We liked talking about that one. We talked a few times.

Video Clip 1 [00:19:40] A few times.

Video Clip 1 [00:19:42] Parts in the book and what we thought and what we interpreted when we Read it. It was just fun, you know.

Video Clip 1 [00:19:48] Did she take it literally?

Video Clip 1 [00:19:51] I think so, as I kind of do too. Some of the stuff, you know, take literally, but for me, it's all good and fun. I think she just took it as scripture. I think that's what a lot of these people did, was take it as more scripture than anything else.

Video Clip 1 [00:20:12] So. Okay. I have so many questions. Thank you for delving into this. So Visions of Glory. You said you have your book with you, right? Do you have your book?

Video Clip 1 [00:20:19] I just pulled it out of my.

Video Clip 1 [00:20:21] Thank you.

Video Clip 1 [00:20:22] My library downstairs.

Lauren Mathias [00:20:23] Yeah, that book became. I've been, I've been reading this book. I've read it a few times now. I didn't know about it until this case. This is, that was research. So you and I talked on the phone even, and you said, well, did you. Like I said, I have to be honest, Braxton, I read it very biased because, yeah, I was reading it for research of this case. And so, so no, I, I, I have to admit, I didn't like it because I'm seeing all these similarities in the book that Lori's seen. I've seen similarities in Tom Harrison, he, Spencer's beliefs and Lori's. We'll get into that in just a second.

Lauren Mathias [00:20:57] You know, this book, though, I, I've heard from many people she liked it. And then it was definitely confirmed in trial when body cam footage or cell phone footage, I should say, from Kauai police showed Lori reading it by the poolside when she was delivered the order to, to present her children to the court. And then in addition to that, confiscated it. And it showed it in, in all of the, the search of her vehicle that they had taken this, this religious book.

Lauren Mathias [00:21:32] You know, it's, it's really interested me for quite a while. I've talked to numerous people who have told me they felt that this book played a role to the point where I finally listened to it. And I, I can't help but see what they're talking about. I, I feel like this is where portals began. Everyone sort of made fun of Chad and Lori's belief in portals, but it's very clear that portals are all the rage and visions of glory and that many people do take this book seriously. Seriously.

Mindy Caldwell [00:22:06] Seriously.

John Dehlin [00:22:09] What the fetch was he saying? What did he say?

Guest [00:22:11] Fun. What did he say?

Megan Connor [00:22:12] I think it's fun.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] It's all good fun.

Lauren Mathias [00:22:14] I think right after that, I finally said to him, what do you mean by good and fun? Right. Let's go back to what good and fun is, right?

John Dehlin [00:22:21] But yeah, that book is anything but good and fun.

Lauren Mathias [00:22:24] I don't see it as fun. I see it as a lot of carnage. I see it as violent. Yeah, I see a lot of death and destruction in the book. It's quite scary to me.

John Dehlin [00:22:32] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:22:33] So Visions of Glory was not the only book that influenced your cousin Braxton and Laurie's cousin Braxton. But it does sound like that was the one book that he had the closest connection with Laurie that they would discuss the most. So, John, let's go to the next. Skip the next clip, but the following clip, and this is Braxton is discussing these books and he and Lauren have a great discussion about whether or not he believes in demonic possession. Do you have anything to add to that before we watch it?

Lauren Mathias [00:23:08] No. Yeah, we can go ahead. Is. Is the one. You're skipping part of that too? Because I think.

Mindy Caldwell [00:23:13] Oh, do we need to do that one too?

Lauren Mathias [00:23:14] I think we just do them.

Mindy Caldwell [00:23:15] Oh, yeah, let's do them both.

Guest 2 [00:23:16] Sorry.

Lauren Mathias [00:23:17] No, it's okay.

John Dehlin [00:23:18] All right, I'll roll it.

Mindy Caldwell [00:23:19] Roll it. Roll the tape.

Lauren Mathias [00:23:21] Visions of Glory is written by a man named John Pontius, but he's essentially like the ghostwriter. He's writing the visions of Spencer. Spencer is an alias, but his real name is Tom Harrison, which I can share because he has come out publicly multiple times. I actually grew up near the Harrison family. And so Tom Harrison wrote this book, Visions of Glory, and he states at the book that these are his visions that he had dreams. Dreams and visions of the last days. And it's a near death experience book.

Guest [00:23:59] Gone.

Lauren Mathias [00:24:01] Here are the visions of the last days. It's just one of the genre we keep talking about, but it's, it's in great detail. And he discusses portals, he discusses the days of tribulation, he discusses his wife dying suddenly because he has another mission to fulfill. He does share a chapter. And I'm sure you know this, you read a few times too, where evil spirits are getting into a man who's looking at poor porn. They're getting into the top of his head. Yeah.

Guest [00:24:30] And lots of books, not just these books that we're reading. A lot of books. A lot of books the same thing.

Lauren Mathias [00:24:38] And seemed to me he might not have used the word zombie, but to me that's what a zombie is.

Guest [00:24:42] Yeah. Maybe that's why they, they called it a zombie. They are saying the same thing. But yeah, there's Enter through the crown of your head.

Lauren Mathias [00:24:51] Yes. And when you do evil things, they're going to be able to get in and they don't want to leave. They want to take over your whole body. Yeah, yeah. I mean, to me that's a, that's a zombie.

Megan Connor [00:25:02] Yeah.

Guest [00:25:02] They want to feel what humans feel because they, they're disembodied, they never had a body. And so they, in a moment of weakness, like drugs, alcohol, his example of porn, any of those, they enter through the crown of the head and they get to feel for a moment human body emotions.

Lauren Mathias [00:25:28] Maybe we can just go to the next one. We can just roll right into the next.

Mindy Caldwell [00:25:30] We'll just roll into the next. It's kind of the same. It's continued on this thought.

Megan Connor [00:25:34] John, you seem like you have something you want to say.

Mindy Caldwell [00:25:38] John's eyebrows are raised like what is he talking about?

John Dehlin [00:25:40] And you listen to just his diction and he sounds super thoughtful and articulate. Thoughtful and articulate. But then he's talking about the stuff. Not like it's a problem. It's like, oh yeah, demons entering the

Lauren Mathias [00:25:53] crown of your head. And very, he's very matter of fact. Yes, very matter of fact.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] But I mean it's, he's assimilated this as his belief system.

Lauren Mathias [00:25:59] Correct?

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Just full on full stuff.

Guest 2 [00:26:01] Yes.

Mindy Caldwell [00:26:01] And that's why I feel like these clips are important, because I think it shows. It's not just. I think it's hard to stereotype people who may have similar beliefs to Braxton. You know, you could be sitting at church with people that maybe are thinking the same thing as him, that you could perceive as, in your words, thoughtful or articulate, and they're, they're still espousing these, these pretty extreme or what most of us would consider abnormal beliefs or extreme. I shouldn't say normal or abnormal, but that's, that's true.

Lauren Mathias [00:26:35] I do want to say, you know, again, this Braxton interview is two hours long. I do recommend it to people if you really want to delve into what he believes and like minded people believe. But I do ask him where, where do you talk about this? And he says, oh, it's a church in the hallway. You know, the people that believe this. And so you're sharing books and you're exchanging books. And so he essentially says this, we talk about this outside of Sunday school or it's not talked about in just like the basic church lessons. But yeah, there's a bunch of people that go to church and we all, we all believe this. We know who each other are and we share these things.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] And I don't mean to perpetuate the false stereotype that there's an association or correlation between religious belief, spiritual belief, and intelligence. As Jonathan Haidt teaches us in the Righteous Mindy, sometimes an advanced intellect allows you to employ confirmation bias and reasoning in a way that actually makes belief more likely and makes belief stronger. So there is not, in my view, a meaningful correlation between intelligence and supernatural beliefs. So sorry for phrasing it the way I did.

Mindy Caldwell [00:27:47] Interesting.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] All right, should we go to the next clip? All right.

Lauren Mathias [00:27:54] Okay.

Guest [00:27:55] That's what I get from all the books now, not just these six books. Back in the early 2000s, I was really into near death experiences. And so I went to the library and looked for every book on near death experience. I didn't want it to be a religious book. I just wanted people to have it. And so I found like literally 20, 30 books. And I read them all about that. And they all kind of said the same thing about evil spirits roaming amongst the earth and entering people and feeling the emotions and everything. So when he wrote that, I'm like, yeah, I get that from a lot of people now.

Guest [00:28:31] Chad and Lori. If they wanted to call him a zombie, I guess they're calling a zombie because an evil spirit entered their body. But they took. Because in Visions of Glory and other books, it was just for the moment. Right. The moment of human weakness. Like one book and I can't. It's escaping my mind. But it was a World War II pilot that died and had a vision. He died in the hospital and what, had a guide and walked around and he went to a bar and watched these evil spirits go through drunk men, through the crown of their head and, and, and got to feel the emotions of their body for a moment. So when he said that Envisions of Glory, I recognized it. So I like that stuff because I believe that stuff too.

Lauren Mathias [00:29:18] Okay.

Guest [00:29:19] A lot of.

Lauren Mathias [00:29:20] Okay. And I, and I read it differently. I felt like he was kind of implying that they were trying to stay in the body, that they. You're right, they entered the crown of the head. They wanted to feel what this?

Guest [00:29:30] Yeah. But they couldn't, I guess that they

Lauren Mathias [00:29:33] wanted to stay and kind of take over his body.

Guest [00:29:36] I'm sure they do. And there's examples of that happening in the Bible. A lot of evil spirits taking over bodies.

Lauren Mathias [00:29:44] So let me, let me just ask you point blank, minus the term zombies, which I think we both think is ridiculous, do you believe in. In an evil spirit being able to take over a good person's body if

Guest [00:30:01] that person is allowing them to? Yes.

Lauren Mathias [00:30:06] And how does one allow them to when you're Drunk.

Guest [00:30:10] Yeah, that, or you're playing with a Ouija board and inviting an evil spirit in and letting it take over your body. I believe that. Yes, Absolutely.

Mindy Caldwell [00:30:19] Okay.

Guest [00:30:22] And Lori believed it, apparently, but they. Yeah, they called it a zombie, and. And I guess the zombie stayed there and they had to do away with the person like her children.

Lauren Mathias [00:30:34] Is there any thought in your mind then that that could have happened, actually, to JJ and Tyler?

Guest [00:30:39] No.

Lauren Mathias [00:30:40] No. And so, I mean, what's the difference? What keeps somebody from believing that? Do you know, any, like, believing that and then other people, like, realizing. I mean, I agree with you.

Guest [00:30:50] I'm like, thank you.

Lauren Mathias [00:30:51] Like, no, no.

Mindy Caldwell [00:30:53] But.

Lauren Mathias [00:30:53] But why would Lori believe that?

Guest [00:30:59] I think the short answer to that is because she wanted to believe it. She wanted to believe it. She wanted to believe Chad was right, and she wanted to believe that this is all for a reason. And he's correct. I think she wanted to. Now, let me explain something. When you're a prepper like me and you're preparing for one event, the second coming of the. And you spend hundreds and thousands of dollars preparing and having a plan and getting your family prepared and your friends prepared, and you spend all this time and it consumes you, and you do it day after day after day.

Guest [00:31:35] You're. You are mentally like, I'm prepared. I am ready. There's nothing more I can do now. I want to be challenged. I want to go through it and do well in it. And I think Lori was in that position where she talked about it every day. She knew what was going on. She was prepared. Chad told her the future and what was going to happen. She knew it. She had. She had a key to the future. And it was Chad, and he's telling her, and she's been preparing and talking about it and telling everybody it's come, coming, it's coming, it's coming. And everybody around her is believing her that it's coming, because Chad told me it's coming.

Guest [00:32:11] She wanted it so bad. So bad. She wanted it that at that point, she's like, I. Chad says this, and. And I want it to happen. I want it to happen. So I'm gonna go past this envelope, go a little bit more, and kind of help it along.

Guest [00:32:30] I think that was. Now that's my opinion on it. I don't. I don't know if she thought that, but that's explains to me how she did this horrific act.

Lauren Mathias [00:32:42] I value your opinions, and. And I understand that you're sharing opinions, and.

Megan Connor [00:32:46] Thank you.

Dangerous Beliefs and Spiritual Manipulation

Lauren Mathias [00:32:47] I guess my next question then Is if. If she did that and she chose to believe that because of the reasons you suggested. Do these beliefs in evil spirits entering bodies become dangerous?

Guest [00:33:02] What do you mean they become dangerous? What do you mean by that?

Lauren Mathias [00:33:04] Well, you seem to have a level head, and I say to you, you know, are JJ and. Were JJ and Tyler taken over by evil spirits? And you smirking, you go, absolutely not. You know, no, of course not. Lori wanted to believe that, but allegedly she did want to believe that, and that's what she claims happened, whether we believe her or not. So is that belief, then, just to have that belief that an evil spirit can enter a good body if they choose it by sinning, I think is what you're saying, is that a dangerous belief to have? Because not everyone is Braxton. Not everyone is healthy like you and can roll your eyes and be like, of course it didn't enter my child's body. You know, I love my child. But. But can everyone think like. Like, is this not an unhealthy belief that we read in Visions of Glory or these other books?

John Dehlin [00:34:03] So much to unpack.

Guest 2 [00:34:05] That's a lot.

Lauren Mathias [00:34:05] That was a long clip. I know, but I. Yeah, I think it was important. Thanks for pulling that.

Mindy Caldwell [00:34:10] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:34:11] Super quick. Did he just acknowledge the likelihood that. That Tom Harrison plagiarized another MDE and imported that bar spirits narrative into Visions of Glory? Did I hear that right?

Lauren Mathias [00:34:28] You did hear that right. You did.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] And instead of it being a problem, he described that bug as a feature saying, well, I see multiple people are receiving the same revelation. Did I get that right?

Lauren Mathias [00:34:40] Yeah. I believe the book I'm looking down here right now, it's called Return from Tomorrow.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [00:34:45] Oh, that's Betty. Is it Betty?

Lauren Mathias [00:34:48] Edie, Return from Tomorrow was a psychiatrist, allegedly George ritchie, published in 1978. And this person wrote me, said, yes, he enters a bar, and then the evil spirits go into the crown of the head. So this person states the exact same wow thing.

Megan Connor [00:35:07] And I think we did remark last episode that part of the draw for these books, for a lot of these people, is the confirmation bias and the fact that they do agree on a lot of these things, which makes it attractive because it helps them confirm their own biases.

Lauren Mathias [00:35:24] So, yeah, they, like, they love the plagiarizing because it just confirms that it's true. Right. If more than one person is having this vision, they don't see as plagiarizing. They see it as confirmation.

Megan Connor [00:35:34] They see it as a second and third and fourth and fifth witness of the same things being true.

Mindy Caldwell [00:35:39] I think that's why the websites like avow where people can go on and share their visions and their dreams and their thoughts. My family member took that as a confirmation and in my mind I'm like, well, one person reads something and then you start thinking about it. Kind of like the pink elephant story. You start thinking about it and then maybe you're going to have a dream about it and then you post about it and then somebody says, oh, my goodness, two or three or four people, just like you said, have posted the same thing. As an outsider, it seems, it seems simple what's going on. But I think if you're, if you're wanting to feel confirmation for yourself that these are real, I think if you, if you keep maybe seeing different variations but similar themes, I think that that would bolster your belief.

Megan Connor [00:36:22] That's validation, right?

John Dehlin [00:36:25] Couple quick comments. If it's okay. Guy McDude writes, I've been drunk while playing with the Ouija board. Where is my evil spirit?

Mindy Caldwell [00:36:34] Well, he's like, the crown of my head is open. Come on in.

John Dehlin [00:36:40] I love.

Lauren Mathias [00:36:41] Who's to say you don't have an evil spirit in you? I think that's right. According according to Chad Lori. And who knows, maybe Braxton. I don't know. You are evil right now. You are a 5.4 dark Rebecca B.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] I don't know if this is Rebecca Biblioteca, but she writes, I use Ouija boards for placemats.

Megan Connor [00:37:00] That makes meal time fun.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] Daisy May, I agree with this. She says, Lauren is such a good interviewer.

Mindy Caldwell [00:37:08] Yes, you are.

John Dehlin [00:37:09] Lauren is a good interviewer. Amen to that.

Mindy Caldwell [00:37:13] I can attest, I think so many of her. This isn't a one off this interview with Braxton. Like she has had the opportunity to interview many, many people in this, in this group or these types of groups. And I've always been impressed, Lauren, that you, that you're able to be so professional and validating, yet you ask a questions. And I think you allow people to open up and feel safe. And I think that's really important. I think it was evident in this, in this interview with Braxton. Thank you. You're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] Lots of people saying, please like this episode, please subscribe to these channels because it helps with the algorithms. It basically helps YouTube promote it. So thank you for reminding us. Really quickly, somebody writes he's kind of emotionless about the kids. I don't, I don't like to pick on people. That's just somebody's comment.

Lauren Mathias [00:38:05] He is, he was, he was throughout the whole interview, so I can concur. I felt that way.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] Okay.

Megan Connor [00:38:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] Any other reactions about. I guess he's family. Megan's over there being quiet.

Megan Connor [00:38:17] No, you're. You're absolutely right.

John Dehlin [00:38:19] And I don't like to put family against family, so I'm not trying.

Megan Connor [00:38:21] No, it's. And. And it's not. Look, I don't. I don't harbor ill will towards my family members, but I think it is important to point out, I think it's part of the family culture to minimize tragedy and to minimize difficult things. And that's part of the reason why we don't talk about things and we don't really hold people accountable in good, healthy ways. And so, yeah, it's part of the family culture, unfortunately.

Lauren Mathias [00:38:47] And it's fair you asked her because I asked Braxton what he thought of Megan on his interview. So now we've come full circle.

Megan Connor [00:38:53] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:38:57] Really quickly, we've got a running theme here. Debbie writes, I need to make that placement theme my Thanksgiving table. Thanks for that. And then I don't know if there's an answer to this, but Kelly asks. Kelly Contrell asks if Lori was excommunicated.

Lauren Mathias [00:39:16] I've always just assumed she had been. I can't imagine her not being excommunicated, but that is a rumor, and I think it's because we. We receive confirmation with Chad excommunication because the stake president's letter was leaked and posted, and that hasn't happened with Lori Valow. Thus there's this mystery. I don't know if you know anything, Megan. I've just always assumed she. She has been because I can't imagine her not being excommunicated at this point.

Megan Connor [00:39:45] Yeah, it would be. It would be a stretch. Although it's. I suppose it's possible that mental health concerns might be at play there somewhere. I don't know if. If bishops and stake presidents take that into consideration, but I do know that her bishop was visiting her while she was in Rexburg, but prior to the trial. I don't know if that's still going on right now or not. So.

Lauren Mathias [00:40:11] Yeah, I mean, she's the only one that's been convicted now at this point, she has been convicted of. Of murdering J.J. ty and. And conspiring to kill Tammy Dbell three consecutive life sentences. I just, you know, maybe she slipped through the cracks, but I have a hard time believing with the amount of attention that trial brought that she wouldn't be.

Mindy Caldwell [00:40:32] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [00:40:33] So I. I assume she is.

Mindy Caldwell [00:40:35] Yeah.

Megan Connor [00:40:36] Yeah. But I'd also be surprised. I mean, I'm not surprised that, that it hasn't been publicized in any way. Right.

Mindy Caldwell [00:40:42] Where the leaks.

Lauren Mathias [00:40:43] I know, I know. Someone send that hidden true crime gmail.com.

John Dehlin [00:40:49] and again, it's, it's not like the Mormon Church can't and hasn't advertised disciplinary councils or excommunications. It has Sam Young me. It's talked about the Bundys. It's talked about lot lots of people. So the church absolutely could just dispel all doubt. And I, I can. I, I hear that it's because they want to respect the confidentiality of the people involved. But when these people have followings. And again, they did it with Tim Ballard. So, like, which is it you're respecting the confidentiality and the privacy or when somebody presents a public threat, you're going to mention them. So I wish we didn't have to guess is what I'm saying.

Megan Connor [00:41:33] You would think that with as much publicity as this trial got, that the church would want to publicize that they've excommunicated her, that this is not a part of our religion.

Lauren Mathias [00:41:43] Yeah, I think, though, that they're going with the trend of not mentioning her. They've wanted to be completely mute about her. They don't want to bring people to bring PR with. With Tim Ballard, they had a relationship. They promoted him. They had no choice but to say, you know, to. Yeah, the PR aspect with, with Chad and Lori Dell. And I am upset about this. I've been very public about how upset I am about this, but they have never commented, never mentioned it. I've said we have nothing to do with this case. I have my opinions about that. But I think that's probably why they're never going to announcer excommunication because they've completely washed their hands of. Wipe their hands of this.

John Dehlin [00:42:23] Okay. All right. Any other comments about Braxton or should we move on?

Mindy Caldwell [00:42:28] Mindy, let's move on.

Lori Vallow's Sentencing Statement

John Dehlin [00:42:29] Okay, let's do it.

Mindy Caldwell [00:42:30] So there were a lot of, there's a lot of speculation during the Lori and Chad trial or Lori's only been on trial, but during the case as to whether or not do they really believe this? Do they believe it or is it just a ruse to get rid of their children and spouses and collect insurance money and go off?

Mindy Caldwell [00:42:51] And I think that's something that we have all talked about. I've landed on that. I do believe that they truly believed the things that they were saying. I think that Chad and Lori both believed it. And a confirmation of that for me was when Lori, after she received her convictions, she had her sentencing hearing.

Mindy Caldwell [00:43:12] And it had been years since we had heard anything from Lori from her mouth, like during the entire trial, other than maybe one word answers. She. She didn't. She never spoke. And so it was, you know, we didn't know what she was thinking or if she had had regrets about what had happened to Tylee and JJ and Charles and Tammy. And so I think we were all kind of on the edge of our seats when she chose to spoke at her sentencing.

Mindy Caldwell [00:43:39] And we decided to play this whole clip. Many of the viewers might have seen this already, but I think it illustrates where Lori's mindset is still.

Lauren Mathias [00:43:49] And, you know, I want to say I'm looking forward to hearing this again because after everything we've talked about, I'm going to be listening with new ears. So even if. Even if people have heard this, I. I think in, you know, this is going to be interesting.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] Yeah. All right, let's roll the clip.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:44:07] I would like to start by quoting

Video Clip 2 [00:44:10] John from the New Testament. In the Bible, In John, chapter 8, verse 7, Jesus says, He that is without sin among you, let him cast first cast a stone at her. Then in first verse 15, Jesus says, Ye judge after the flesh. I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true.

Video Clip 2 [00:44:35] Jesus knows me and Jesus understands me. I mourn with all of you who mourn my children and Tammy. Jesus Christ knows the truth of what happened here. Jesus Christ knows that no one was murdered in this case. Accidental deaths happen.

Video Clip 2 [00:45:06] Suicides happen. Fatal side effects from medications happen. I have a different perspective in life because in 2002, when I was pregnant with Tyler, I died in the hospital while in labor with her. They tried to stop my labor. They put me on the table and they put something in my IV and I felt my spirit falling to the floor.

Video Clip 2 [00:45:36] I was standing near my pregnant body watching the doctors try to revive me, which took them a few minutes. In that time, my sister Stacy was standing to my left. I turned to hug her and was surprised that her spirit was as tangible as a physical body, because I knew I was in spirit and she was in spirit.

Video Clip 2 [00:45:59] She said she needed to show me some things and we went to heaven. I later returned to my body. Because of this experience, I have access to heaven and the spirit world. Since then, I have had many communications from people now living in heaven, including my children, Tyler Ashland and Joshua Jackson, my sisters Stacy and Lolly, my aunts and my uncles and my grandparents.

Video Clip 2 [00:46:34] I have had many communications with Jesus Christ, the Savior of this world and our heavenly parents. I've had many angelic visitors have come and communicated with me and even manifested themselves to me because of these communications. I know for a fact that my children are happy and busy in the spirit world.

Video Clip 2 [00:46:59] Because of my communications with my friend Tammy Daybell, I know that she is also very happy and extremely busy. I have always mourned the loss of my loved ones, and I have lost many in this mortal world. However, I know them more than most people. I know where they are now and what they're doing. I know how wonderful heaven is, and I'm homesick for it every single day.

Video Clip 2 [00:47:32] I know we all lived in heaven before we were born on Earth and we were all adult spirits in the heavenly realm. We chose to come to Earth as mortals. Heaven is more wonderful than you can possibly imagine.

Guest 2 [00:47:47] I do not fear death, but I look forward to it. I did not want to return to my body when I was out of it, even though my son Colby, who I adored more than anything, was only six years old at the time and I was about to give birth to this new baby girl that I wanted so badly.

Guest 2 [00:48:10] I was a young mother and you would think I wouldn't want to leave my children, but as I stood in heaven, I did not want to go back. I thought they would be fine without me because I was peaceful and I was happy and I was home.

Guest 2 [00:48:28] But then I was told by Jesus that I needed to go back and complete things that I had covenanted or promised to do before I was born. This caused me a lot of distress because I knew heaven was my real home and I only wanted to be there. I was free from pain, emotional and physical.

Guest 2 [00:48:49] But then I was shown how I would help my children and others in the future. So ultimately, I did agree to go back to my body. Kylie has visited me. She is happy and very busy. Ty is free now from all the pains of her life.

Guest 2 [00:49:14] Ty suffered horrible physical pain her whole life. I sat with Tyler in the hospital year after year after year while she screamed in pain. When the morphine wasn't even enough to take away the pain of her pancreatitis, I sat there while she cried and I held back her hair while she threw up. And I am the only person on this earth who knows how much Tylee suffered in her life. She had pain every single day. She never felt good.

Guest 2 [00:49:48] Her body did not work right, and I don't know if that was from complications from me dying while she was being born or something else, but she had A very difficult life. She was sexually abused by her own biological father since she was three years old. And she was forced by family court to go Visit him for 10 years against her will.

Guest 2 [00:50:12] I fought for her in court. I protected her. I tried to protect her with my whole life. I tried to protect her. I worried about her every single day. Tyler had to get her GED because she couldn't go to school. Every day because she never felt good. She felt sick.

Guest 2 [00:50:33] Nobody knows this because Tyler, like myself, tries to put on a good front, tries to be a happy person, tries to have hope in life, tries to know that she's here for a purpose and that she has an eternal purpose to be on this earth. But I never stopped worrying about her.

Guest 2 [00:50:51] One of the times that Tyler came to me as a spirit after she died, she said. She commanded me, and she said to me, stop worrying, Mom. We are fine. She knows how I worry and how I miss her.

Guest 2 [00:51:09] The first time JJ visited me after he passed away, he put his arm around me and he said to me, you didn't do anything wrong, Mom. I love you. And I know you loved me every minute of my life.

Guest 2 [00:51:29] Gigi. Jj. Joshua Jackson was an adult spirit, and he was very, very tall. When he put his arm around him, he is busy, he is engaged, he has jobs that he does there, and he is happy where he is. His life was short, but JJ's life was meaningful. JJ was a wonderful person and touched the lives of everyone, and I adored him every minute of his life.

Guest 2 [00:52:04] My eternal friend, Tammy Daybell has visited me on several occasions. She came to bring me peace and comfort. And I know that she is extremely busy helping her family, especially her children and grandchildren. And I have a great love for Tammy Foreign.

Guest 2 [00:52:27] My beautiful children, Kylie Ashland and Joshua Jackson, rest safely this day in the arms of Jesus. My wonderful friend Tammy Daybell rests safely this day in the arms of Jesus. And I look forward to the day when we are all reunited, and I, too, will rest with them in the arms of my Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Wow. So much there. Yeah, I mean, there's obviously. Well, let me start. Megan, do you want to start?

Megan Connor [00:53:03] I just. I'm remembering all of the feelings that came up for me the first time that I heard this statement from Lori. And there is. There's. There's a lot to unpack. I just have to say, like, overwhelmingly, the first emotion that overrides everything else is just anger. You know, there just is. There's so much there. But this was definitely a moment for me where I.

Megan Connor [00:53:29] I just don't I don't recognize that person. I don't know who that is. You know, that. That is not. That's not my cousin. That's not Laurie. It's. It's sad and it's tragic, and I just. I hate that she refers to Tiling JJ in the present tense. I hate that she refers to Tammy as her friend. I hate that she, you know, dares us to cast a stone at her when, you know, none of us that I know of or are murderers. It's just unbelievable to me. But. But I did really appreciate Judge Boyce's comments after this where he said that she went down a religious rabbit hole and she's obviously still there. And I think that's the best way to encapsulate that. That entire statement.

Lauren Mathias [00:54:15] I mean, people are going to be really busy in heaven. We learned that. Everyone's busy.

Megan Connor [00:54:19] Yeah. We learned what they're up to.

Lauren Mathias [00:54:20] Everyone's busy. I do think that's a Mormon thing. Everyone's busy. I mean, everyone has a purpose is what I think that means. Everyone still matters. Everything is. Continues on.

Guest 2 [00:54:33] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [00:54:33] I want to point out. Yeah, it's a very difficult. Listen, I. I do want to point out, I think one of the most shocking things, when I was listening to it, oddly, I went to Rexburg for. And then I ended up watching it from my hotel room because people were camping out the night before and everyone wanted to see, and I realized I'd have a better seat in the hotel room. So I remember watching it and my jaw dropped. I remember when she kept referring to her dear friend Tammy Daybell.

Megan Connor [00:54:57] If.

Lauren Mathias [00:54:57] If you realize that she was the mistress in this relationship, you know, she was. She was having an affair with Chad while he was married to Tammy, and then Tammy was murdered because Chad wanted to be with his mistress. It's just sort of this jaw dropping moment. But. But then I think this is really important to point out. I, you know, she refers to her as an eternal friend at one point, and I do think there was this idea of spiritual polygamy. And I want to bring that up because that hits on the daybell case, hits on the Tim Ballard, what the Tim Ballard victims are saying. And, you know, I think that that might be a hint into her thinking that she's like, almost like a sister wife with Tammy Daybell, referring to her as an eternal friend.

Megan Connor [00:55:45] It's.

Lauren Mathias [00:55:45] It's bizarre. And, yeah, I, you know, I can't even. I just. I can't even listen to her talk about loving her children. That makes me just want to, but. But I think the one thing we can learn is, and I think it's what we've all kind of known we knew throughout the trial. Like, she believes this still. She believes this. This is what her defense kept hinting at. She still believes this. And so if there was any doubt. Here you go.

Analyzing Lori Vallow's Claims and Theology

Mindy Caldwell [00:56:12] One thing that was surprising to me, that I don't believe we'd ever heard before, was that she had. That she died when, when she was giving birth to Tyler. So now she's claiming her own near death experience where she was given some medicine in her IV and she left her body.

Mindy Caldwell [00:56:26] And I just found that interesting and convenient that she was able to tell that story at this point to claim that she, you know, maybe this is her equivalent to like a ripped veil, you know, so that's what's allowing her to visit with the spirit version of Tylee and jj and she mentioned others and Tammy. When I watched that the first time, like my heart pounded watching it just now. And I've watched that several times because I think it brought back the emotions, like flames, flames going out of my head. Just an anger, especially about Tammy, just that she was, as Laurie said, or as Lauren said, I'm so sorry, I've called you twice.

Lauren Mathias [00:57:12] We're talking about Lori.

Mindy Caldwell [00:57:14] Lauren Mathias said, you know, said that, you know, Lori Valo is the mistress and, and was involved in this plot to, to eliminate Tammy for the convenience of their, you know, adulterous affair. And. Oh, I just thought that was incredibly insensitive. And I, I just, my heart just went to all of the victims in their. And their families, but particularly Tammy's family. That, that day I just felt tender for her. To have the audacity to call Tammy her dear, eternal friend, that was just gross and that was offensive to me.

Lauren Mathias [00:57:58] Yeah, thank you for bringing up the near death experience because you're right, that was the point of that statement. And then it was at the beginning and then it continued. What that, that matters so much because that's what we're discussing is this group of like minded preppers, those that have the most power, have the near death experiences. And the near death experiences do something to them that not only do they have a vision during their near, near death experience, they come back with sort of this ripped, torn veil or they can see things that others cannot see. They become more prophetic at that moment. And so it just seems like the moment someone claims that near death experience, that's. That's when they become, yeah, a more prophetic voice in this community that we're seeing of these near death experience visionary, second coming preppers.

Mindy Caldwell [00:58:47] I think John mentioned earlier, it's like a big power grab, right? Is that how you described it? Just as an automatic way to gain power and to gain. Have people listen to you. Yeah. And trust your opinion.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] Yeah. And that. Where does that idea come from? Visions of glory he just talks about. As soon as you have that nde, you start to have visions. You start to be able to have extra sensory powers. Maybe your body transforms into something immortal over time. You can walk through portals, you can pick up a toothbrush and see the universe expanded across time. And Memorial. And I'm glad you guys shared all the beautiful things and the heartbreak you all shared about how sad and outrageous this testimony was. I do want to just drive it a little bit more home. How much of this comes from Tom Harrison?

John Dehlin [00:59:44] You know, Megan, you just said that that wasn't your cousin. Right. We've tried to cover on Mormon Stories Podcast, you know, the impact of high demand religions or cults. We brought on Stephen Hasson, and this isn't me calling the LDS church a cult. Certainly you're probably okay with me calling this sort of prepper theology cultish. If you're an orthodox Mormon, hopefully you're okay with that.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] But. But what. What we learn about cults is that one of the things cults do is they indoctrinate you into assuming the cult personality. It's an identity change. It's a personality change. And so what changed Lori's personality? Now, I'm not saying she was without responsibility. I'm not saying she wasn't an adult. I'm not trying to take away that. But she's clearly under the trance or the spell of a series of teachings. And so I wrote down a bunch of the things I heard. And I just want, if you all don't mind, will you audibly confirm whether these are principles taught in visions of glory? Is that okay?

Lauren Mathias [01:01:01] Yes.

Mindy Caldwell [01:01:01] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:01:02] So this idea of Jesus knowing and understanding us.

Lauren Mathias [01:01:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:05] Right. Okay. Jesus knowing the truth of what happened, it's almost like she's saying we had to do something that y' all wouldn't understand with the kids.

Lauren Mathias [01:01:16] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:01:17] But Jesus understands it, correct?

Mindy Caldwell [01:01:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:19] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [01:01:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:20] Okay. How about this idea of near death experiences? You've already talked about that. Obviously that's central. How about being in spirit with her sister and the handshakes or the hugs or whatever. Just that whole idea of spiritual communion, spirit to spirit, correct?

Megan Connor [01:01:38] Yes.

Lauren Mathias [01:01:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] Yeah. How about. How about being able to communicate with children Sisters, Jesus, Heavenly parents, dead people, Ancestors.

Lauren Mathias [01:01:50] Yeah, that's very. Visions of glory.

John Dehlin [01:01:52] Okay. Angelic visitors.

Lauren Mathias [01:01:54] Very Visions of glory.

John Dehlin [01:01:56] Okay. How about knowing that Tammy is happy and busy and that JJ and Ty Lee are happy and busy and satisfied.

Lauren Mathias [01:02:03] Visions of glory.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] Yeah. The. The idea that. That JJ was an adult spirit, you

Lauren Mathias [01:02:10] know, that's visions of glory. And that is so Visions of glory. Let me just say that. That every single person, that once they become a translated being, they hit about age 30, according to Tom Harrison's vision. So some people become younger children, grow up, and you hit that age. And so JJ being tall is being a translated resurrected being. That is so visions of glory.

John Dehlin [01:02:31] And I was taught that growing up. That's Mormon doctrine and theology. You know, pretty much a lot of this is. Yeah, it's more fundamentalist, and that's why we call it neo Fundamentalist, because they're trying to bring back the doctrine that the church has tried to distance itself from. How about this idea that death is. Death is not a bad thing. Death is great death. Death is.

Mindy Caldwell [01:02:50] I look forward to it.

John Dehlin [01:02:51] Yeah. Is that. Is that in visions of glory?

Lauren Mathias [01:02:53] Yeah. Well, let's go a little bit further than just death is great. Death is sometimes mandatory when you can't deliver people from an evil spirit and you can act as God and take their life from them. That is visions of glory. And that is what happened here last episode. The last episode we played that very damning, shocking clip. And that is what Lori did to her children. Now she's saying. Now she's saying this happened because they needed to move on.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [01:03:21] And they're happy it. They delivered.

Mindy Caldwell [01:03:23] Definitely a sense that, like we did. We did them a favor, you know,

Lauren Mathias [01:03:28] that we did a favor.

Mindy Caldwell [01:03:29] That it was. It was merciful. Correct. We.

Lauren Mathias [01:03:33] Braxton implies that, too. In his interview with me. He said. He states that he thinks that Lori. He said. He said to me, would you want your kids to live through the second Coming? It's gonna be terrible. I said, well. Well, no. He goes, well, neither did Lori.

Megan Connor [01:03:44] So.

Lauren Mathias [01:03:45] Yeah, she delivered them. She. She was. She. She helped them.

John Dehlin [01:03:50] Yeah. I'll just summarize. It's almost as if Tom Harrison wrote that talk for her.

Megan Connor [01:03:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:03:56] I mean, in my mind, it's his theology.

Mindy Caldwell [01:04:01] Yeah.

Megan Connor [01:04:01] Yep, it is. It's a summary of almost everything that was in Visions of Glory.

John Dehlin [01:04:06] Yeah. So that's what's happened to your cousin. That's what's happened to her personality. She's been taken over by a mind virus.

Mindy Caldwell [01:04:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] Right.

Megan Connor [01:04:17] Yeah. And I. I do. I Do want to definitely make sure that we say at no point ever in the history of Lori Noreen Cox did she ever say she had a near death experience. Summer confirmed that. Adam confirmed that. Her living siblings both said that never happened. And I can guarantee you that if that had happened, she would have shouted it from the rooftops. That would have been a theme of discussion in our family forever till the end of time if that had actually happened. And I mean, you're laughing, but I'm not kidding because I believe you 100%. And then what probably would have happened after that is that Barry probably would have co opted and made it his own and then talked that. Talked like it was his, you know, because he was the spiritual giant, you

Lauren Mathias [01:05:09] know, sophisticated on it.

Megan Connor [01:05:11] Yeah. So it just, you know, it's important to say that she never talked about that before, even when she was reading the book and even when she was telling, you know, her brother Adam that she was a translated being and she didn't need to eat anymore. And, you know, even after she met Chad and she had never said anything about a near death experience before.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] Yeah. And just I think beliefs have consequences, you know.

Megan Connor [01:05:35] They do.

Mindy Caldwell [01:05:36] 100 they do.

John Dehlin [01:05:37] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [01:05:37] We're looking at it in that, in that video, that clip.

Megan Connor [01:05:40] Yeah. I also just briefly want to say too that it's very telling where her psyche and her emotions are. That almost the last thing that she talks about is, is being absolved of guilt by the very people who she harmed. J.J. told her not. She didn't do anything wrong.

Mindy Caldwell [01:05:58] Don't worry about me.

Megan Connor [01:05:59] Tyler said, don't worry about me. Tammy gave her approval. You know, it was, you know, Lori has to believe that she was not complicit, that she was. She didn't have any responsibility in this because how, how do you wrap your mind around that otherwise?

Lauren Mathias [01:06:16] Well, according to Visions of Glory, she doesn't have any responsibility. So if she's following that theology, she's good as gold.

John Dehlin [01:06:23] Yeah. All right, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [01:06:25] Oh, goodness. Okay, I want to move on to Eternal Core. Are we. Do you have anything else to say about Chad and Lori?

Lauren Mathias [01:06:32] I think we covered it well.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] I think we made the case.

Mindy Caldwell [01:06:34] I think we made the case. All right. Okay, moving on. The next point we want to talk about is Eternal Core and Eternal Core, the logo is here on your screen. Eternal Core Exploring God Centric mental Health. And this was founded by Tom Harrison. I believe it was also co founded by, by his friend Ken Krogh. And we can talk about, we can talk about Ken in a minute. They would do podcasts together. They would. They put on at least one conference, I think maybe two. And then they. You can find their videos on YouTube under Eternal Core. And at this point, I want to give a shout out to. To two Redditors that I drew heavily from for this part of the podcast. Chino Blanco on Reddit and Devil's Ravioli. Thank you for your great work in compiling some of this information. It was very helpful.

Thom Harrison and the Eternal Core Conference

Lauren Mathias [01:07:29] Those were impressive.

Mindy Caldwell [01:07:30] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [01:07:30] Connecting the dots.

Mindy Caldwell [01:07:31] Yes. Okay, so let's look at the. Let's look at the. The photo of the group photo. John from Eternal Core. We talked about a few of these before. So we have Tom Harrison in the center, and then to the left, we have Tim Ballard. And then to the far right on the center, we have Jody Hildebrandt. And there are some other notables in this photo. On the top row, there's Alema Harrington. He's a local sportscaster, news person, I believe, on the top, on the end with the blonde hair, top left is Jessica Mass from Operation Underground Railroad.

Mindy Caldwell [01:08:11] And then down below on the. On the bottom, far left is Kenneth Cope. And some people might know him as a pretty popular LDS singer and songwriter. I'm not sure if he spoke, but I think he did some musical numbers at the concert or, excuse me, at the conference.

Mindy Caldwell [01:08:29] And then just below, below Ken, or excuse me, below Tom Harrison on the slight left, his name is Tyler Schwab, and he's also an employee of our. Of Operation Underground Railroad, and he works in their aftercare. And then there. There's other people that. Those are just the connections that I was able to make. Oh, just to the right of Tom Harrison is. Is a gentleman named Clay Olson, and he is.

Mindy Caldwell [01:08:56] He is behind the fight, the new drug campaign, which has been very popular in Utah, which is talking about teaching teens about pornography usage. So if there's anyone.

John Dehlin [01:09:09] Somebody messaged me and told me that the founder of LifeStar is also amongst these photos.

Mindy Caldwell [01:09:17] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [01:09:18] I'm searching for it, but I think they may have withdrawn their message, maybe out of fear or maybe I just can't find it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:09:25] But do you want to tell us what. Tell everyone what LifeStar is?

John Dehlin [01:09:27] Yeah, LifeStar is just this network of sort of approved, faithful orthodox LDS therapists that bishops would refer their members to and in many instances, pay for that therapy. So as I understand it, Jody Hildebrandt, for example, sort of owned a lifestyle franchise along the Wasatch front, and that's how so many Mormon bishops would channel clients to Jody and pay for the therapy that, that was received. So, and, and LifeStar's focus was on, quote, sex addiction. And, and it was basically treating normative masturbation and problematic pornography viewing. Is that.

Lauren Mathias [01:10:14] Yeah. Accurate?

Mindy Caldwell [01:10:15] That's right. Do you want to play the video clip that, that shows Tom Harrison talking about some of his methods of.

John Dehlin [01:10:26] And this is at therapy? This is at that conference?

Mindy Caldwell [01:10:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:10:30] Yeah. Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [01:10:32] One of the eternal core conferences.

John Dehlin [01:10:33] Okay. All right. This is Tom, therapist Tom Harrison. Now, numerous times in my 41 years of practice, I had a patient come through the door and I had a plan already of what I was going to do. And that voice said, stop, don't do that, do this.

John Dehlin [01:11:00] And that glorious ancestor or that glorious grandmother or that glorious individual who loves that person enough to make their way to my office said, stop it, Tom. That's not what they need. Do this instead. And when I did it, miracles happened.

John Dehlin [01:11:28] And I, I saw that clip on Reddit and as someone with a PhD in psychology, I've been trained, you know, was trained for six years. Super duper unethical. Like any licensing board worth its salt would suspend his license for admitting that he basically performs religious psychic based, informed psychotherapeutic interventions where he basically, in his imagination, channels the dead loved ones of his clients and lets them dictate what the psychotherapeutic treatment should be. Super unethical and outrageous.

Mindy Caldwell [01:12:05] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [01:12:06] Channeling ancestors, big part of his book. Big part of Lori sentencing speech to you heard. I mean, just full circle. That's the channeling ancestors.

John Dehlin [01:12:17] Yeah. Yeah. But to know this guy's leading Mormon therapy conferences that he was that as he claims he consulted Mormon church general authorities for decades, supposedly as an expert on child abuse. So deeply disturbing that, that the church used this guy as a consultant.

Lauren Mathias [01:12:40] Again, deciding what missionary shouldn't, shouldn't be serving is he's right now at this moment. So is he deciding this through their ancestors or is he deciding this through case studies and science?

John Dehlin [01:12:52] Yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

Allegations Against Thom Harrison

Mindy Caldwell [01:12:55] I think many of us that have been thinking about this case and about Tom, currently separate from the book, but currently just in his current therapeutic practice. I think we've wondered what kind of a therapist has he been, you know, do we have stories out there about, you know, what kind of, if he's, if he's done things like this that we just saw in the video where he's, is he telling his patients that he's channeling their dead ancestors to help them? Is he acting professionally? And then we have something that Lauren would like to Share somebody that, that counseled with Tom reached out to Lauren.

Lauren Mathias [01:13:38] Yes, I have now talked to a few patients of Tom Harrison. I think that this one has this woman's experiences. She's told me that as long as I keep her anonymous at this moment, she, she, she is considering coming forward later with her name. But she's told me I can share a few things. I'm not even going to share all of the things she's allowed me to share. I'm going to share some things that I find really important. So this is a patient of Tom Harrison for years. She started seeing Tom Harrison and I want to say that I have vetted this individual. I, I know who they are. They're vetted.

John Dehlin [01:14:18] In other words, you find them to be credible.

Lauren Mathias [01:14:20] I find them to be very credible. This is a very credible source.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] And yes, and I'm just going to say for legal reasons that these are allegations. We're not saying that they're true, but we're sharing them with every good reason to believe they could be correct.

Lauren Mathias [01:14:37] Yeah, this is, I wouldn't just share any sources, a credible source. This is a person that was a patient of Tom Harrison's for

Megan Connor [01:14:45] years.

Lauren Mathias [01:14:45] I have seen text exchange between them if that means anything to anyone too. So, so these are the points that I want to share today that she's allowing me to share. She, she started seeing him as a young adult. Tom referred to me and others, including someone close to me, as having light and dark energy or being light and dark spirits.

Lauren Mathias [01:15:10] That is, I just need to repeat that is Chad Dbell's rating scale and we'll get into Tim Ballard there. But I've also heard that, that Tom Harrison would help our know who was light and who was dark in the organization as a whole. So that, that, that goes with what else I'm hearing too. So Tom referred to me and others, including someone close to me, as having light or dark energy or being light and dark spirits.

Lauren Mathias [01:15:36] He violated many boundaries in therapy, including those I told you about, specifically taking me to a temple as a young adult and considered me. He told me there in the temple that I was one of his eternal wives.

Lauren Mathias [01:15:53] Truthfully, so much of it was about spiritual connection and eternal marriage. And he frequently spoke of alternative, mostly not included in mainstream LDS doctrine, practices, beliefs and ideas about the pre existence, eternal polygamy, relationships with people in other states of existence, etc.

Lauren Mathias [01:16:17] So that's not all she told me I could share. But I think that's what matters right now is we're seeing a pattern in these beliefs that are. Are being shared and. And taught. And even now, entering into therapy with his patients.

John Dehlin [01:16:34] One really quick. I found the text that I was referring to previously. I'm going to jump back to that. LifeStar or sorry, to the Eternal Core conference slide. And this is what a source writes. I'm pretty sure the second man from the left on the top row is one of the founders of LifeStar. Dan Gray is the name that this person is providing. This person says, I worked for LifeStar in Rexburg for a while. Nuts. Thankfully, I came to my senses. Thank you for your amazing work. So that's another name.

Lauren Mathias [01:17:13] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:17:13] Dan Gray, allegedly. We don't know if that's true, but Mindy, where do we go next?

Mindy Caldwell [01:17:20] Yeah, I think to. To follow up on. On some of Tom's patients and their experience that they've had with him. Thank you, Lauren, for sharing. For sharing that from your source. I did want to talk about Ken Krogh.

Mindy Caldwell [01:17:35] He is a friend of Tom and he helped to found the Eternal Core Exploring God centric mental health brand. So a little bit of background on Ken. He is a wealthy businessman who unfortunately was in a terrible automobile accident.

Mindy Caldwell [01:18:04] And he, he says that after his automobile accident, he really became. Began to change his behavior where he was just saying inappropriate things and feeling tempted by pornography and some other things, which he said he previously, that was new for him. That wasn't something that he had dealt with before and he was very distressed about it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:18:28] He claims to have heard Tom Harrison's voice at some point. He. I don't recall if he said it was in a dream or a vision or something, but he just, he remembers hearing Tom's voice and he was talking to his friend Rod Meldrum, who you have interviewed on this podcast. And Rod is behind the Book of Mormon evidence and the firm expo that I attended. We'll get to that later.

Lauren Mathias [01:18:55] But yeah, he's important. Rod Meldrum, Lauren.

Mindy Caldwell [01:18:57] We'll talk about that later. So Rod tells Tom, you need. Or, excuse me, tells Ken, you need to talk to my friend Tom. And so this next clip is where Tom, where Ken talks about how he was introduced to Tom and how Tom helped him with this problem.

John Dehlin [01:19:15] All right, let's roll the clip.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [01:19:20] I had been in the middle of this conflict between different groups of Latter Day Saints debating over things like where did the Book of Mormon happen? And why is this? Why is that? And I had been in the middle of it thinking, okay, I'm supposed to help 54,000 young people learn how to use social Media, and if they get in the middle of these discussions, it's gonna be worse than if we didn't even bring it up. I went back into my journal

Video Clip 3 [01:19:54] of

Video Clip 3 [01:19:55] a few weeks before the accident,

Video Clip 3 [01:20:00] and

Video Clip 3 [01:20:00] I had written down, I don't know what to do. I can't figure out who's right. Heavenly Father, bless me with an open mind. Be really careful what you ask for. I was meeting with Tom. I said, tom, why do I. And before I could say, he said, ken, why do I feel like I know you?

Video Clip 3 [01:20:40] I said, tom, why do I know your voice? Tom's got a pretty distinctive voice. He said, I don't know, but let's talk about it next week. And I said, and why am I having these crazy urges and temptations and appetites? I can't even slow them down. He says, well, let's talk next week.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:59] By the way, Tom excuses himself and goes to the restroom quite often. What I've learned is he's really going to turn to Father and ask, how do I help this person? Linda, you've got an amazing husband. So I came back and he said, ken, I need to ask you, what's your calling in the LDS Church?

Video Clip 3 [01:21:24] Why are you asking me that? What does that have to do with anything? No, just humor me. I said, well, two and a half weeks before this accident, I was asked to be the head of social media, ministering for the young single adults in Utah County. 30 stakes, 54,000 of them.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:47] And he said, what's their greatest challenge? I said, without question, it's pornography. I said, oh. He said, ken, you can't help what you don't know. And within a month, it was gone. It was utterly, completely, totally gone. And Tom was like my personal Obi Wan. But it wasn't him. And he says it. He says, he turned me to the force. He turned me upstairs to the Lord. And ever since then, I'm really careful about asking for an open mind or anything else.

Mindy Caldwell [01:22:51] So I think he's implying that he asked for an open mind. He has this new calling as the director of social media, ministering over 54,000 young single adults. And then after his accident, he develops this unusual urge to view pornography. And then Tom counsels him that you can't teach what you don't know. So to me, that was implying that God gave him the urge to. He had to look at pornography. Am I. Am I reaching here? Is that kind of what you were. What everyone else got from that? It was a very roundabout way to kind of. To get to that point. But I think that's what he was implying, that he asked for an open mind, he had this urge and then, and then he claims that, that Tom helped him through that and that he didn't have that temptation anymore.

Megan Connor [01:23:52] I'm mainly offended by the abuse of the Star wars clip. I mean that's clearly out of bounds for someone like that to be referencing the Star wars canon.

Lauren Mathias [01:24:01] I thought the Obi Wan was interesting because I think isn't that a, you know, it's, that's a mentor. Right?

Mindy Caldwell [01:24:05] That's a guru.

Lauren Mathias [01:24:06] Yeah. A guru is sort of what I think we're concerned about that he is sort of a self proclaimed guru on so many things.

Megan Connor [01:24:17] He's a porn whisperer.

Mindy Caldwell [01:24:19] You say the porn whisper. Oh goodness.

John Dehlin [01:24:22] I mean I'm just, I, I'm just befuddled by how the Mormon Church decides who should be leaders in the community. Right. Like somebody sarcastically wrote, this is James Morgan. He writes, he seems like a logical candidate to supervise young people on social media. Lol. But, but kind of more seriously, my friend Allison. Hey Allison. She writes it's like going to your abuser for treatment of your abuse trauma on religious trauma that is perpetually having fuel thrown on it. I have no idea if what I just said made sense, but it makes sense in my head like, like the church creates the problem and then it presents itself as the solution to the problem it's creating and then it's putting forward completely inappropriate, unethical people as the leaders to resolve the problem and they're part of making the problem worse and worse. I don't know.

Mindy Caldwell [01:25:27] I mean we call this the poison and the cure.

John Dehlin [01:25:30] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:25:31] I think some people might take offense to calling the church poison, but I feel like it's fair in this situation where, or that's like they gave you the illness and then the treatment for the illness. But it's just this never ending cycle. Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:46] What's hard is that the, the whole reason Natasha Helfer started the Mormon Mental Health association is because there are faithful, active, competent Mormon mental health professionals that abide by their ethics.

Lauren Mathias [01:26:00] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:26:00] And use science evidence based practice to do treatment. So these people exist as active, faithful, believing Mormons, but for some reason the church doesn't want them being the ones that lead these initiatives or are the mentors. Why are they picking these sketchy people

Lauren Mathias [01:26:19] or deciding again who, what missionaries are okay to go on mission, mental health wise, you know, and can we talk

Mindy Caldwell [01:26:25] about him excusing himself during therapy sessions several times to use the bathroom when. And then he Claims that he's praying or like the previous clip that you showed that he was calling on, like, ancestors. That seems abnormal for your therapist to excuse themselves.

Lauren Mathias [01:26:42] I don't even know what to say. I have no comment because it's like, I don't even know what to say there. It's very awesome.

John Dehlin [01:26:48] And then just really quickly, I'll just say running around, roaming around, Google Don Gray lifestar images, and that same photo came up. So it is Don Gray. Is it Dan or Don?

Lauren Mathias [01:27:00] I think it's Dan.

John Dehlin [01:27:01] Dan Gray.

Mindy Caldwell [01:27:01] Gray. Oh, on the image.

John Dehlin [01:27:03] On that image. Okay. Okay, good, Minnie.

Jodi Hildebrandt and Harrison's Professional Overlap

Mindy Caldwell [01:27:05] All right, so the Eternal Core Conference, we're kind of carrying on with the people that we saw, a few of the people that we saw in that photo. And so next we're going to talk about Jody Hildebrandt. Jody has been covered heavily over the last. How long has it been? Month, month and a half since the story broke with Ruby Frankie, eight passengers. Jody Hildebrandt is a Mormon therapist who John has interviewed. Jesse Hildebrandt, who is Jody's niece. And also, Adam Steed had an extensive interview where he was a patient of Jody's and had a lot of damage from her therapies.

Lauren Mathias [01:27:54] And I want to say this. Your interview with Adam C. Was taken down, but ours is up.

John Dehlin [01:27:58] So they didn't send you.

Lauren Mathias [01:28:00] No, ours is up. So. So you can see Adam's deed on it. Well, not see him, but here him on. In Hidden True Crime. We have two parts there. But. But, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Mindy Caldwell [01:28:11] No, it's fine. I'm glad you mentioned that. So people can go to your. To Hidden True Crime and see your interview with Adam Steed. That's important. Jody is also behind some of these porn addiction programs that we've been talking about, but she has been arrested because two of Ruby, Frankie. Ruby and Kevin, Frankie's minor children were found at Jody Hildebrandt's home in Ivan's, Utah, and had been abused and malnourished and mistreated. And they escaped Jody Hild Hildebrandt's home and ran to a neighbor, and subsequently Jody. Jody and Ruby were both arrested and are still currently in jail.

Guest 2 [01:28:51] Right.

Mindy Caldwell [01:28:51] Do we have any updates on. On what's going on with their legal. I. I haven't.

Lauren Mathias [01:28:56] I believe there was a hearing today, but. But I've been here today. But. But as of last night, yeah, there was some interesting news. But let me just say, as far as Joe, yeah, the children were in her care.

Lauren Mathias [01:29:08] They were tied up. They were bound with duct tape. They were tied. They had lacerations and wounds that were so deep that, you know, it brought tears to the people. Looking at these children, they were so skinny, they could tell they'd been starved. This was, this is no joke, child abuse. What's also heartbreaking is Jesse came on Mormon Stories to pretty much share she went through the exact same thing.

Lauren Mathias [01:29:33] Oh, excuse me. Thank you. Thank you. Jesse came on to share that they went through the exact same thing. And, and so, so, so, so she is behind bars and this is just horrendous. Horrendous abuse of. Just made national international news.

Lauren Mathias [01:29:51] Thank you for your coverage, John, with what Mormon Stories has done with this, this horrendous story. But yes. So Jody Hildebrandt and Jody presented at

Mindy Caldwell [01:30:00] the Eternal core conference in 2019. The topic of her main address was called how how to Choose Personal Responsibility to Heal the Human Soul. That was her. She bluntly tells her clients, she admits in her presentation that she bluntly tells her clients that they are responsible for their depression. She claims to be able to discern if people are connected or disconnected or in truth or distortion is how she describes it just by looking at them. So that's a theme that we've heard all day long. How many times do we hear Tom Harrison say in his book, I just knew everything about the person just by, you know, immediately looking at them by

John Dehlin [01:30:41] picking up their hairbrush?

Mindy Caldwell [01:30:42] Yeah, it's just this theme. Okay, so let's, let's look at the next. Oh, just not a surprise if you, if you followed any of the Jody Hildebrandt coverage. But she talks about these, these concepts of that she's developed called distortion and truth and connection. Oh, her, her brand is called connections with an X, C O N N E X I O N S. And she talks about these concepts just constantly. It just seems like she's constantly bringing those up. And she claims that distortion is the root of. Root cause of anxiety and depression, which I think is harmful when you're dealing with mental health treatment.

Lauren Mathias [01:31:26] Extremely harmful.

Mindy Caldwell [01:31:28] Okay, so this next video clip is from a panel that Tom and Tom Harrison and Jody Hildebrandt are on together during the Eternal core conference of 2019.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [01:31:45] The. This, this normal that we all experience involves hard. Just involves hard. So, you know, many of us have had experiences just today that have been hard and uncomfortable. And that's what's normal. And what we have to remember is that that's a part of this life experience. It's what creates your character. It's what creates the Stretching and the growing and the developing is if you'll stay in heart. And this is where we need each other. This is where we need connection. You know, you're my new friend, Tom. And I want to be able to call Tom when I'm in hard and say, tom, I'm in hard.

Video Clip 4 [01:32:20] And Tom, because he knows how to validate, Tom's going to say, jody, tell me about it. And I'm going to tell him what the heart is. And then he's going to say, oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense. Or, I understand, or, I was there yesterday, or, you can do it. He's going to validate me. And inside that validation, I feel the connection.

Video Clip 4 [01:32:40] And so then all of a sudden, my hard becomes less hard. It doesn't mean that it goes away. And I don't need to stay in this place of I'm anxious or I'm depressed. That's like a state of being. It's like a death sentence to stay in those two states.

Video Clip 4 [01:32:53] Instead, I call and I get some validation. And then Tom says to me, hey, Jody, you ready? You ready to hear your part in what's hard about this? And then because he loves me, he says, here's your part you're responsible for. You're in distortion. You're saying to yourself, I can't do this. This is impossible. This shouldn't have happened. How dare they? He points that out to me, and then I can use my agency and say, okay, I choose to go into truth. And I'll tell you, it is instant that you come back into this very powerful connection. And I thank him, like, thank you for telling me the truth, Tom. That's what we're looking for. That's what we're working towards. Normal is hard. Hard is normal.

Video Clip 4 [01:33:35] And that's what eternal core is. Eternal core is. Is moving the whole field of psychology and psychiatry and social work and mental health, marriage and family counseling out of this distortion of we are all in competition with each other and my way is better than your way. If we cannot come together, how do we expect our clients to come together? If we can't be united, how do we expect them to learn how to be united? If we are not living in truth, how can we expect them to live in truth?

Megan Connor [01:34:21] That was not an audience member that was laughing during that entire presentation.

Guest 2 [01:34:32] The only person laughing, all four of us.

John Dehlin [01:34:36] What in the world?

Lauren Mathias [01:34:40] You know, that was Irish.

Megan Connor [01:34:43] Maybe just carry around a tape recorder and just record yourself and listen to it back and just see if there's something you might want to change your wording on.

Mindy Caldwell [01:34:55] Oh, that's funny.

Lauren Mathias [01:34:57] But that was. That was eerie, though. I. I had not seen that clip. I had not seen that clip either. I had not seen. Clearly, none of us, except for maybe Mindy.

John Dehlin [01:35:06] Everybody's mad at me for laughing. I couldn't help it. Mindy, why'd you choose that clip? How dare I should have been warned.

Mindy Caldwell [01:35:14] I didn't know that it was gonna have that reaction.

Guest [01:35:18] No.

Mindy Caldwell [01:35:18] But it's been a long day in the Mormon Stories podcast.

Megan Connor [01:35:21] That's true. We're a little.

Mindy Caldwell [01:35:23] We're a little bit punchy.

Lauren Mathias [01:35:24] But he just said distortion and truth.

Guest [01:35:27] He just.

Lauren Mathias [01:35:27] He just adopted Jody Hildebrand's lingo.

Guest [01:35:29] Right.

Lauren Mathias [01:35:30] It's interesting.

Guest 2 [01:35:31] Fascinating.

Mindy Caldwell [01:35:31] He kind of tied that in after she had been talking about it and talking about it, and then he ties it into his own remarks.

Megan Connor [01:35:37] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:35:37] I don't know if we should show the next clip based on how things are going. Let me.

Guest [01:35:42] Let me see.

Megan Connor [01:35:42] I can get. If I can bring us back down a little bit. I'm always good to be the downer. You know, I'm just thinking about. I'm thinking about what Jody was saying and the way she was describing therapy and. And, of course, you saying, like, that she openly told her clients that they were responsible for their own depression. And I'm just thinking about my own therapy journey and where I was mentally and emotionally so fragile when I first reached out for therapeutic help. And I'm just imagining if my therapist had said to me that I was responsible for my own depression and that it was basically my fault that I was depressed and that I could just choose to just snap out of it immediately if I would just choose to be.

Megan Connor [01:36:25] In truth, I. You know, I think that would have just made me sicker for a long time, you know, and it's just so harmful. I think. I think anybody. Any mental health professional out there would listen to that and say, that's garbage.

Mindy Caldwell [01:36:40] Agreed. All right. Should we are. John?

John Dehlin [01:36:45] I'm good.

Mindy Caldwell [01:36:45] Okay. You good?

John Dehlin [01:36:46] I'm good.

Mindy Caldwell [01:36:47] Okay. The next. The next clip is. Talk is where Tom Harrison references his relationship with Neil A. Maxwell. So he brings him up again. And this is a common theme for Tom. I think he uses that relationship or that past relationship often to give him a little bit higher stance or. Or more credibility. So he just. He. He's on the same panel with. With. Or I believe it's a different panel, but he's with Jody Hildebrand, and he's talking about some advice that Neil A. Maxwell gave him,

John Dehlin [01:37:32] We think that sex.

Mindy Caldwell [01:37:34] Oh, no, Wrong.

Megan Connor [01:37:35] This is the wrong clip. Oh, no, don't play it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:37:37] Oh, maybe I took out that other clip. Well, spoiler alert. The next clip is about sex.

John Dehlin [01:37:45] Do you want to summarize what we would have heard?

Mindy Caldwell [01:37:49] He talked about just getting this, and it was just very solemn the way he spoke about how Neal A. Maxwell gave him advice about how in each of us we have our own universe. And then if we can understand our own universe, then we can connect more deeply with others in their universe. That was the gist of it. So it was more for the Neely Maxwell connection than anything for him to mention that.

John Dehlin [01:38:14] So is this the clip? Is this a clip?

Mindy Caldwell [01:38:17] Yes. Okay, we're switched. Yes. Okay, thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:38:19] Let's go back and said Tom.

Mindy Caldwell [01:38:22] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:38:22] Within us we have our own universes. And first we need to deal with this universe, understand it completely before we can understand the broader universe. May we understand our own universe. May we understand at a higher level these God given bodies that are ours.

Mindy Caldwell [01:38:55] And I think that that clip is interesting because he's obviously, obviously talking very seriously. The universe reference is. Is talking about, I believe, about getting to know our own intimacy and our own sexuality, because this was given in the couples and intimacy panel. So he's referencing Neely Maxwell and he's talking about the advice that was given to him and how we can be better intimate partners if we can understand each other. And the. I remember, I'm remembering. One of the reasons that I chose this clip is because in the very same panel, he makes this joke that we're going to see next. And it just, it seemed just so bizarre and out of place considering the clip that we just saw about. About the advice from Neela Maxwell. So you can do the next little.

Lauren Mathias [01:39:45] And that was Jody sitting next to him too.

Mindy Caldwell [01:39:47] That's Jody.

Guest [01:39:47] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:39:48] Jody's with him. This. On this entire panel. She's sitting down too. Yep. So now we can have the sex clip.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [01:39:53] Okay. We think that sex is only this 6 inch square on the human body.

Video Clip 5 [01:40:05] And.

Video Clip 5 [01:40:06] And I'm exaggerating with six inches. Okay. No pun intended.

Video Clip 5 [01:40:15] That's not a pun.

Video Clip 5 [01:40:16] That wasn't a pun.

Mindy Caldwell [01:40:19] And it's just bizarre and inappropriate, in my opinion, to make a joke like that in that setting while at the same time talking about advice that Neelie Maxwell is giving them.

Lauren Mathias [01:40:28] I wasn't expecting that. Yeah, yeah, I wasn't.

Mindy Caldwell [01:40:30] Big surprise.

Lauren Mathias [01:40:31] She's trying to lighten up the audience.

John Dehlin [01:40:33] I didn't make one snicker. There was not one snicker.

Megan Connor [01:40:35] Because it's not really funny. It's just weird. It's inappropriate.

Mindy Caldwell [01:40:39] And I think there was a delay. And then you see Jody Hildebrandt kind of do this furrowed eyebrow, like, look at this uncomfortable.

Lauren Mathias [01:40:45] She's like, distortion.

Mindy Caldwell [01:40:48] That's funny. Lauren, did he just say what they thought he said? All right, should we move on? Any other thoughts about Jody? Okay. All right, next up is Tim Ballard in operation?

The Church's Use of Controversial Therapists

John Dehlin [01:40:59] Actually, I will make one comment. I, I'm going to answer my own question. Why has the church used such unethical therapists as its referred therapists and as its trainers and spokespeople? It's because the, the field of science based mental health has matured to be in contradiction to core Mormon doctrine. So, you know, the mental health field would say that same sex love, same sex marriage, same sex, the same sex attraction is natural, it's not a choice, it can't be fixed. And that the best outcomes for LGBTQ individuals is to find the love that, that fulfills them and engaging, committed love. Every single, every single therapist professional association is going to affirm that.

John Dehlin [01:42:00] So any ethical therapist that follows and has allegiance to their ethics is going to by definition be out of alignment with Mormon churches, core doctrine and theology. So there chop off all those ethical therapists that the church can't refer people to if they want to refer their members to people that toe the party line.

John Dehlin [01:42:24] Same thing with masturbation. Pediatric Association, American Medical Association, American Psychiatric Psychological, all the different associations are going to say that masturbation is healthy normative behavior. And that's the first thing that got Natasha Helfer in trouble with LDS Social Services, with her local bishop and stake president, is she was saying we need to stop pathologizing masturbation because it's healthy and normal and to pathologize it is causing more harm than otherwise would happen. And of course, she gets yanked off the therapy therapist recommendation list and has to build up her own clientele separately from that. So I'm going to answer my own questions. The church picks unethical, harmful therapists like Jody, like, like Tom, because they're the only ones that will toe the party line against the ethics of their own professional associations.

Megan Connor [01:43:26] Yeah, and I want to mention as well, I did some of this research for my book, so I'm not a mental health professional, but I do know that there is no diagnosis of sex addiction in the dsm. It just isn't there. And most mental health professionals agree that addiction is not specific to sex. And so the Entire, you know, church addiction recovery program then becomes problematic because it's really based on that premise. And so if it's not supported by mental health professionals, then they have to necessarily employ people who will continue to perpetuate the idea that you have a sex addiction if you masturbate and that sexual addiction is a huge problem.

Megan Connor [01:44:16] And I think we saw that in the Adam Paul Steed interview in his comments about Jody's therapy practices, is that she basically classifies everyone as an addiction. And, you know, regardless of whether it fits the diagnostic criteria for addiction, she just labels everyone as an addict and then that guarantees that they have to be in therapy with her.

John Dehlin [01:44:40] Yeah, and we also just can't put all the blame on Jody Hildebrandt or Tom Harrison. The Mormon Church imported the Alcoholics Anonymous whole program into its faux mental health services, I don't know, around 2009, 2010, that's my memory. And started these addiction and recovery groups within Mormon wards and Mormon stakes. And it was not to treat alcoholism, it was not to treat meth, it was not to treat any, you know, heroin opiates. It was to treat sex addiction. And when it said sex addiction, of course there were, it was an occasional, you know, pedophile in there or something of that nature. But the vast majority of people referred to these addiction recovery groups weren't people that were masturbating and looking at porn seven, eight, nine hours a day.

John Dehlin [01:45:36] It would often be somebody that was masturbating and looking at porn for 20 minutes once every three to four weeks. And they were literally the ones being characterized as, as addicts. And this is not just Jody Hildebrandt, it's system wide for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to this day.

Mindy Caldwell [01:45:58] So that's problematic. Yeah, not good. All right, all right, moving on. We've got Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad. And I think it's an interesting thing to note that we've been, we mentioned previously that we've been talking about doing this episode, talking about Visions of Glory and Tom Harrison for a while. And it's just I wasn't aware of the association, the close association that Tom Harrison had with Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad until just recently. So it was just so interesting that that news has just come out in the last few weeks and then we were already planning on talking about this. So of course we need to add this to the discussion at some point.

Thom Harrison's Role With Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad

Mindy Caldwell [01:46:37] Tom left his private practice to become a chief consultant for Operation Underground Railroad. And in this next video clip, we have and this shout out to Krecia Easton. Kresha is the aunt of J.J. valo, and she has. She has prepared some information about the connections between Tom Harrison and some of these groups.

Guest [01:47:02] And.

Mindy Caldwell [01:47:02] And she prepared this video clip where Tim Ballard is describing his feelings about Tom Harrison and how he can be helpful in Operation Underground railroad.

Lauren Mathias [01:47:15] And her YouTube channel is difficult research.

Mindy Caldwell [01:47:17] Oh, thank you, Lauren. That's correct.

Guest [01:47:23] So I. I wanted to do my own research on it, and I. And I found a brain specialist, one of the people that helps us heal the brain of children who have been traumatized. His name's Tom Harrison.

Mindy Caldwell [01:47:34] That's a short clip, but it's interesting that Tim Ballard described him as a brain.

John Dehlin [01:47:39] Can I just say that would be a neurologist, right? That's what a brain. A brain specialist is not like a master's in social work kind of dude. Can I just say that?

Lauren Mathias [01:47:51] Right, right.

Mindy Caldwell [01:47:52] And that piece.

John Dehlin [01:47:53] Does he have a Ph.D. or master's in social work?

Mindy Caldwell [01:47:56] Masters, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:58] Anyway.

Mindy Caldwell [01:47:59] Sorry, no, just helping to heal the brain of children who have been traumatized.

Megan Connor [01:48:03] Get a neuropsychology degree in his spare time. It's just.

Mindy Caldwell [01:48:07] Oh, okay. It's not on LinkedIn.

Lauren Mathias [01:48:09] All right, go ahead and I'll.

Mindy Caldwell [01:48:12] Oh, no, go ahead with your thought.

Lauren Mathias [01:48:14] Well, I think you're about to. To maybe talk about it, so I don't want to jump.

Mindy Caldwell [01:48:18] Oh, the next thing, just the next point is, is in these new documents that we've. That we've been. That we've been able to view about the civil cases that have come against Tim Ballard. We referenced this previously. Previously, but we will review it. Tim claims that Tom had a vision that Tim would be a US Senator, the President united of the United States, and ultimately the prophet of the LDS Church to help usher in the Second Coming. Do you want to put up that quote again from. This is from the victim. It's the previous one.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] Previous quote.

Mindy Caldwell [01:48:59] There it is.

John Dehlin [01:49:00] Y.

Mindy Caldwell [01:49:00] Sorry. This is from the Tim Ballard lawsuit. Excerpt from Victim Statement HDT he also had told me to read this book. It was called the Visions of Glory, and that he had met with the man who wrote it. His name was Tom Harrison. And that Tom had told him lots of visions that he had had that actually had Tim in them. He said that Tim would be a prophet of the LDS Church one day, that he would be President of the United States.

John Dehlin [01:49:24] So Tom Harrison told Tim Ballard that he saw in a vision that Tim Ballard would be prophetic of the LDS Church and President of the United States.

Mindy Caldwell [01:49:36] Tom Harrison, according to hdt. One of the female victims.

John Dehlin [01:49:42] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:49:42] Correct. Did you have something to add there, Lauren, or are we gonna go?

Lauren Mathias [01:49:47] No, keep going.

Mindy Caldwell [01:49:48] Okay.

Lauren Mathias [01:49:48] Keep going.

Mindy Caldwell [01:49:49] Okay, and then the next slide is from.

John Dehlin [01:49:51] Do we do the previous one?

Mindy Caldwell [01:49:53] The one that had the yellow and the pink markings? Yeah, let's do that one.

John Dehlin [01:49:56] Okay.

Lauren Mathias [01:49:56] That's from the FOIA docs, right?

Mindy Caldwell [01:49:58] Yeah. John, do you want to read that one?

John Dehlin [01:50:00] Yeah, sure. This is Liberty 89, Elder Ballard. I don't know what that means.

Mindy Caldwell [01:50:07] Okay, so this is. This person is named Chairston. She is a former.

John Dehlin [01:50:12] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [01:50:13] Tristan Stockwell. I hope I'm pronouncing your name right.

Lauren Mathias [01:50:15] You did pronounce it right.

Mindy Caldwell [01:50:16] Okay. She's a former Operation Underground Railroad employee. And this is from the Davis county case that came about previously and I think was the cause for Tim Ballard to be ousted from Operation Underground Railroad earlier in this year. And she is. She is giving testimony about some of her interactions with this entity called Liberty89. And that's what this slide talks about.

Lauren Mathias [01:50:40] It's from the Freedom of Information act request that Vice News got and all of the journalists in Utah were able to. To get. Yeah, it's from this.

John Dehlin [01:50:49] All right, so here's what it says. Cheer said Tim took her to a meeting in her official our work capacity to meet with people at Thanksgiving Point. The people at the meeting included Tom Harrison, Ken Krogh, Hugh Vale, Tim Ballard. Kirsten said they claimed to have visions and special intelligence of the second coming.

John Dehlin [01:51:16] Kirsten said that because she had shared some spiritual things and Tim found out about it, he. Tim could share with her the more, quote, secret things that I'm Tim involved in. Charston said during this meeting, they spoke about Liberty89, America being a fallen nation, and how it was Tim's calling to do these things with our and restoring America to the Covenant. Chairston said restoring America to the Covenant was, quote, a big mission of Tim's and he was called of God to do this. Chair said Tim was very verbal about Elder M. Russell Ballard, his involvement in and behind it. But Kirsten said she didn't know if she believed that.

John Dehlin [01:51:59] Cheerson also said Tim would say that em. Russell Ballard is a part of Liberty 89. Tim would tell us that, but Hugh was there and he was an employee, so it would be more employees than just Chirston.

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:13] Right. So I just think that's just illustrating another connection between Tim Ballard, Tom Harrison, visionary talk, end of times talk. We're special.

John Dehlin [01:52:25] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:25] Elder Ballard's in the mix there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Troubling Documents From the Civil Cases

John Dehlin [01:52:32] And then we have the ketamine. The ketamine notes from last episode. Do you want to set that up one more time?

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:38] Do we want to do that one again?

Lauren Mathias [01:52:39] Yeah. And then I have a few other notes, too, that I can just read from my phone.

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:42] Yes. That's the last of the. Of the sections.

John Dehlin [01:52:44] I'll just summarize this ketamine thing. Basically, it's notes for my guests, the ketamine guide scribe. And it's basically just, you know, I can put it up on this slide. People can pause it if they want. But he's basically mentioning.

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:58] This is Tim Ballard that was. Do that, had a ketamine session and had somebody scribed for him. So these are Tim Ballard's thoughts.

John Dehlin [01:53:04] Yeah. And he basically is talking about Nephi and Tom Harrison and Angels and mentions Tom Harrison. I think that's enough.

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:14] Make that point. Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:15] Yep, I think we've made that. That point.

John Dehlin [01:53:16] Okay. And then there's one. Oh, go ahead.

Lauren Mathias [01:53:20] No, go ahead. No, what is that you just had.

John Dehlin [01:53:24] Is that.

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:24] Oh, I think that Megan added this slide. Oh, perfect.

Megan Connor [01:53:28] Yeah, we don't have to. I mean, go.

John Dehlin [01:53:29] Go ahead.

Lauren Mathias [01:53:32] Yeah. So I just want to point out. So. So the civil lawsuits came down and we don't have slides for these. So. So the two civil lawsuits that we've already discussed, and these are some of the quotes from the victims and from the attorney about what Tim says to these alleged victims.

Lauren Mathias [01:53:53] Ballard would claim to his female ruse partners that if his wife Catherine were to die, he would immediately marry them. Ballard told one of his victims that when his wife would question what Ballard was doing with these women, Ballard would tell his wife that his female partners kept falling in love with him and wanted to kill Catherine so that they could be together. I want to bring up that this is also a trend in Visions of Glory, in Chad Daybell and many of the people who believe in multiple probations, they predict that their current wife is going to die or someone's trying to kill the wife or something's going to happen, and that they will marry a past wife, a past life wife.

Lauren Mathias [01:54:38] More from these. From the civil lawsuit, he went as far as saying that the individual was obsessed with him and that she wanted to marry him, be his wife when he was the President of the United States, and that she physically wanted to hurt Catherine. He told me that she was trying to put cookies on his doorstep to poison Catherine. He painted her out to be this crazy person who became obsessed with him and wanted to hurt Catherine.

Lauren Mathias [01:55:06] And now here we go. Some new pages. In quotes. Never mention this to anyone. No one will ever understand. This is for the greater good and the new covenant. We had to be married in past lives.

Mindy Caldwell [01:55:21] He would say, this is Tim to.

Lauren Mathias [01:55:23] This is Tim to one of the victims. Okay, so they were married now in a past life hence. And it's for the greater good and the new covenant. And here's one more. Another interesting finding was stumbling upon some of AA's notes. So this is actually the husband of AA victim, aa.

Mindy Caldwell [01:55:43] They're learning civil lawsuits.

Lauren Mathias [01:55:45] It's the second civil lawsuit. Correct. Thank you. Another interesting finding was stumbling upon some of AA's notes. One in particular was extremely disturbing, especially when I read it without the benefit of context. The note was describing some sort of trance or spell Tim was under while under the influence of ketamine. He was talking to Nephi, Tom Harrison and others. He was talking about past lives and how he and A.A. were together in a past life, held captive together. He was saying that AA was an angel and chosen by Catherine to carry out these missions.

Lauren Mathias [01:56:21] So not only are we talking about past lives, which is Daybell, we're talking about Catherine giving approval, which is, I think, in my opinion, spiritual polygamy. That Catherine's choosing these women. And that also goes with Lori Valo Daybell suggesting that she's an eternal friend with Tammy Daybell and pretty much telling these women that they were married in a past life. I mean, never mind that he's talking to Nephi and Tom Harrison and others, but he then he's talking about past lives and how he and A were together in a past life, held captive.

Lauren Mathias [01:56:55] Sound familiar? So I just want to point out those few, few moments. There are more in the civil lawsuit, but those are a few moments.

John Dehlin [01:57:02] Yeah, Yeah. I want to refer people to Carolyn Pearson's excellent book, the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy. Modern Mormons want to believe that the polygamy is behind us, but it's not. It's still in Doctrine and Covenants Section 132. It's never been retracted. The top two Mormon leaders in the world right now, Russell M. Nelson and Dallin H. Oaks, both believe that they will be practicing polygamy in the afterlife. And these fundamentalist and neo fundamentalist beliefs of spiritual wives and even real polygamous wives in the here and now, you know, we interviewed yet last, last night, the. The daughter of Christopher, Christopher Brett, she said on the podcast that he believes in. In plural marriage right now as. As the leader of avow. That's what she reported.

Lauren Mathias [01:57:54] He owns the AVOW website, another voice of warning which the Southern Utah or the Southern Poverty Law center declares as a terrorist organization.

John Dehlin [01:58:01] Yeah, yeah, but. But this polygamy thing is just still haunting us, so.

Guest 2 [01:58:06] It is.

John Dehlin [01:58:06] Yeah.

Guest [01:58:08] Really.

John Dehlin [01:58:08] Quick, Megan, you had included this statement from former our employees. Did this have a connection to Tom Harrison or Visions of Glory?

Megan Connor [01:58:18] No, I don't believe so. Well, I. I don't believe so. I think it was alleged that, you know, that, that Tim Ballard was using, you know, supernatural resources rather than actual intelligence on his operations.

John Dehlin [01:58:31] But Janet, the psychic.

Megan Connor [01:58:34] Okay, mention Tom Harrison specifically.

John Dehlin [01:58:38] Okay. But we all know that, that Tim Ballard paid a psychic, I think, six figures to try and help him gather, quote, intelligence about these operations or jumps that they would do. And you know, the one that I saw, the one in Haiti where they're trying to find Guardi is just a joke because it's a fool's errand. They don't find him. And they spent hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars on a fake jump with great footage to not find the kid they went to see because the intelligence they were pursuing was from some housewife in Utah who was channeling Nephi through a psychic experience.

Megan Connor [01:59:20] Yeah. And I think what we've read in some of these documents as well is that it was not just that one particular jump, but really the, the origin story of Operation Underground Railroad came to pass because this psychic told Tim Ballard, oh, I know where this missing child is. This missing child has been sold into slavery. He's being trafficked. And that's sort of how the whole. Our movement got, you know, started was on the advice of a psychic.

Mindy Caldwell [01:59:50] Yeah, there are actually two psychics mentioned in the, in the documents. The one that I think we've been talking about the most is Janet Rosen.

John Dehlin [01:59:59] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:59:59] But there's also a psychic named Laurie that's also mentioned.

Guest 2 [02:00:02] So.

Megan Connor [02:00:03] Yes.

Mindy Caldwell [02:00:03] Okay. We are going to next talk about Maurice Harker. We hinted to him earlier, and I felt like this was important to share this story because this case happened kind of during maybe Hildebrand and things were going on and it just didn't get a lot of press. But I think it's important and there is a connection. He also presented at Eternal Core and the video clip that we are going to play is a portion of his presentation at the Eternal Core conference, the same one that, that all the others have been been on that we, we spoke about. He speaks about how treating satanic temptation must be included in our therapeutic practices. So let's listen to a little bit of his speech and Then we'll talk about the charges that have been brought against him.

Maurice Harker and Spiritual Warfare Therapy

▶ Video Clip 6

Video Clip 6 [02:01:01] But what if we learned how to teach people to watch your chemical reactions and the high speed satanic thoughts enter your mind? It's only as hard as hitting a 90 mile an hour curveball in baseball. But it can be trained. Okay, I want to skip down to my final conclusions here. Self mastery is not just a matter of willpower and choice.

Video Clip 6 [02:01:23] There is an intelligent, strategic, destruction oriented

Video Clip 6 [02:01:26] entity significantly and subtly involved in both temptation and torment. This is not a new concept. Our spiritual leaders have reminded us of this throughout all of history, across most cultures and religions. They just didn't give us a scientific explanation for how it works. We now have that. Studying our science of psychology while ignoring psychological, biochemical, satanic attacks is like preparing our loved ones for a war that is only against ourselves. You're doing it to yourself. You're doing it to yourself. That I call psychological civil war. Or against organic elements like trees and weather conditions. It's just about your body.

Video Clip 6 [02:02:03] It's just about your body. No, it is not.

Video Clip 6 [02:02:06] We have a responsibility to understand and teach all factors that influence the psychological experience. Excluding spiritual influences on human psychology is like excluding the concepts of nature and nurture. It is irresponsible if we do not learn to become aware of satanic intrusive thoughts and chemical reactions that cause cognitive.

Video Clip 6 [02:02:29] And if we do not, and if

Video Clip 6 [02:02:32] we do not become accurately trained to respond to such attacks with the necessary accuracy, speed and strength, we are not. Not fully equipped to acquire psychological self mastery. We do know the solution. We do know how to train people to do this. It can be taught. You do not have to live in a state of fear.

Video Clip 6 [02:02:49] It can be taught.

Video Clip 6 [02:02:51] So in your notes, if you want more information, there's several links there to finish the conversation since we only had 30 minutes. Thank you.

Mindy Caldwell [02:03:02] And there's Mari Sharker.

Megan Connor [02:03:09] Can I.

Lauren Mathias [02:03:09] Can I read the most recent article about Marie Parker?

Mindy Caldwell [02:03:12] Please? Please do.

Additional Therapist Misconduct Allegations

Lauren Mathias [02:03:13] FOX 13 now in Utah, this is September. This was September 19, 2023 by Spencer Burt, Farmington, Utah. A therapist based in Davis county has been charged with abusing a vulnerable woman over the span of several years under the guise of providing her therapy. Maurice Wade Harker, 54, was charged Tuesday with aggravated abuse of a vulnerable adult and kidnapping, both second degree felonies. According to the charging documents, Harker repeatedly abused a client of his between 2012 and 2021. The woman suffered serious injuries throughout this time and said she even thought she might die during one of the sessions. The woman Said Harker used aggressive, hands on and even violent tactics, claiming that he had to do so because she was possessed by a demon.

Mindy Caldwell [02:04:02] And then there's a follow up to that where he exposed the patient to pornography to help teach her about sex. And then he would lay on top of her and to comfort her after he had put her through these exorcism type exercises to rid her of this demon that was, that was inside her. He created a dating profile for her. I just, somebody helped me understand how, how he can go to a conference and, and talk about that. There's scientific proof that satanic forces and torment need to be taken seriously in mental health treatment.

Lauren Mathias [02:04:45] And this was okay, this was accepted by Eternal Core.

John Dehlin [02:04:50] And I just, I, it's awful. And I, I still want to just reiterate when, when Jesse Hildebrandt talked about doing billing for Jody as a teenager, Jesse said that Jody's number one client who paid bills was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I'm just coming back to this idea that the LDS Church has chosen, has hand selected these therapists to be the ones through the LifeStar network, through other networks to be the ones that these bishops refer their ward members to and the bishops and the wards pay for this therapy. So the Mormon Church has been funding, selecting, hand selecting and funding these types of therapists.

Lauren Mathias [02:05:42] Harker was the subject of a report by rolling stone in October 2022 in which the former client came forward. The Rolling Stones article states that Harker is fairly well known in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints community. In 2005 he founded Life Changing Services, a pornography addiction treatment group that appeared to be based on LDS principles, although not directly sponsored or supported by the Church. He did however, work as a counselor with LDS Family Services for several seven years before founding founding his own program, according to his bio on the Sons of Helaman website.

Guest [02:06:14] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:06:16] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:06:16] Yeah. And here's the article. Sully Tribune Former Utah Therapist assaulted patient to Rid her of demons Charges a lich.

Lauren Mathias [02:06:26] What is going on?

Mindy Caldwell [02:06:28] Yeah, that's wild.

Lauren Mathias [02:06:29] And that's why we're all here today tonight, so late.

The FIRM Foundation Expo and Fringe Mormon Networks

Mindy Caldwell [02:06:32] All right. Do you want to talk for a few minutes about Firm? How are you feeling?

Lauren Mathias [02:06:37] Yeah, no, that's great.

Mindy Caldwell [02:06:38] That's where we are.

Lauren Mathias [02:06:39] Yeah, that's where we are. That's a great segue actually. What is going on? So that is the question that led me to attend a Firm expo last year of April 2022. Of course we didn't know yet about Tim Ballard's alleged victims. We didn't know yet about Jody Hildebrandt. I did not yet know about Eternal Core and I did not know yet about Maurice Harker. But the Day Bell case was enough for me investigating this daybell case. At that time it had been three years interviewing many, many people with like minded beliefs, those that had maybe left certain beliefs, you know, ex members, members of, you know, Friends of the Day Bells people that, you know, people that were mixed in these circles, interviewing a lot of them.

Lauren Mathias [02:07:28] And I was still confused, you know, I was at the. What is going on? I want to understand, I want to attend these conferences. Because what I knew is that Chad Dabel and Lori Valo attended these conferences. And when I say these conferences, let's go over what these conferences are again. They're the Preparing a People conference now Latter day media conferences.

Lauren Mathias [02:07:49] They're the Firm Expo. The Firm Expo was actually the, the and that's the Firm Foundation Expo by Rod Meldrum. That was the conference that Melanie Gibb and David Warwick were attending in Rexburg, Idaho. Those are Lori and Chad's very good friends. The, the last time anyone saw 7 year old JJ Valo alive in September 2019.

Lauren Mathias [02:08:12] So they, they were attending that conference and doing a podcast. So Chad Dabel had a platform at these conferences along with the AVOW website. And I'm trying to put together in my brain what is this belief system exactly. I'm still confused. Like I know that there's past lives, multiple probations, energy healing, a belief that the churches, church leaders are possibly falling away or that wanting to bring it back, the church to its roots.

Lauren Mathias [02:08:40] I was still grasping someone had sent me this. You know, I know they taught about visions and dreams and, and here's a, here's a textbook actually from one of the conferences. I just want to show you the Dreams and Vision workbook right here. Brought that today.

Lauren Mathias [02:08:55] First page is Overcoming Unbelief in Dreams and Visions. How to have dreams and visions. What experiences have I had in my life that support dreams and visions? What dreams have I had from God? It goes on and on.

Megan Connor [02:09:08] So Lauren, just for the people who may not be familiar with these conferences, they're not sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints at all, Right?

Lauren Mathias [02:09:18] Correct. They're not sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They're, they're, they're people that are lds. I would call them extreme in their beliefs. Neo Fundamentalists as, as John de Lynn has has dubbed it.

John Dehlin [02:09:31] And I like how you Describe them.

Lauren Mathias [02:09:34] I say it's like this perfect trifecta of visionary. So they near death experience visionary preppers. They have that, that's sort of like this trifecta of, of beliefs. But, but I went. So I attended. You know there was one in, in the Salt Lake City area that I decided to attend. Here's, here's the program from this.

Lauren Mathias [02:09:56] I attended three days, all three days. 2022 firm expo. I just want to point out. So on this side of the expo, on the program, the highlighted speakers on the, on the COVID of the program, that is Jason Mao. Jason Mao is a friend of Chad and Lori.

Lauren Mathias [02:10:16] Specifically Lori Valo was a neighbor of Lori Vallow's. He was so close to both Chad Daba and Lori Valow that there are police interviews that we have on our channel with him and that he had to give buccal swab DNA bu swabs for the night Tammy Dabel was was killed. To eliminate him from all possibilities, he, he willingly offered his DNA samples. I'm not saying he was involved. I'm just saying he was that closely connected to these people that he, he had to do that and share what he knew. He had. Lori on his podcast, Chad on his podcast.

Lauren Mathias [02:10:51] Right here is Tim Ballard. He is the highlighted speaker for the Firm Foundation Expo. I had been putting together all these connections realizing that Tim Ballard is connected to all these groups. The, the, the, these, these teachings are extreme. I think that's the thing. I want to point out too that people that are speaking at these conferences, these are not, you know, let's go talk about how the, the spirit warms my heart and how we can overcome trials and know that God is there because he carries us through hard times. This is, let me just read you some of the things we have.

Lauren Mathias [02:11:30] We have, let's see. Modern science versus true science. We have polygamy and Joseph Smith. Top questions answered. We have the Porter Rockwell Project did. Oh here you're, you're here. John. John Dehlin's DNA dodge. So you're a topic that was.

Mindy Caldwell [02:11:55] Sounds interesting.

Lauren Mathias [02:11:56] That was the main hall. That means it was a big one. So at 11 o' clock we have dinosaurs among people. Dinosaurs in the scriptures. In other words, dinosaurs weren't extinct. They, they, they died during the Noah's Ark time. Noah just forgot to put them on the ark. And then we have, you know, there, there is a lot and, and I met many people that knew Chad and Lori. Melanie Gibb, David Warwick. I had met people that had been to Lori's house. Someone had A giant freedom flag that the title of liberty flag that Moroni carries. And she was such a nice woman and she shared with me, she opened it up and said she always has the speakers sign.

Lauren Mathias [02:12:45] And there was Tim Ballard, there was Chad Daybell, there was Julie Rowe. All of their signatures on this flag. And there was one gentleman. I purchased his book. He, he was also so kind and he said yes, this, this chapter, he told me which chapter. This is about Chad Daybell. But after Chad did what he did, I went and deleted his name. I. I edited his name for a new publication.

Lauren Mathias [02:13:09] I'm just trying to like explain to people what, what this is. And I know you've had Rod Meldrum on your channel, you've interviewed Rod Meldrum. Rod Meldrum is the founder of the firm Expo. So that's these. I wanted to know what is it that all of these people have in common. They still felt like there, there was something and I'll say I after three days there. There were no specific beliefs that they all believed in. Some people spoke against multiple mortal. Mortal probations and past lives as it was evil. Other people were for it. Some people were for energy healing. Other people were against it because the church had written in the handbook that no more. Some people, you know, there was.

Common Threads Among Fringe Mormon Figures

John Dehlin [02:13:48] Some believe Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and other people denied the Joseph Smith.

Mindy Caldwell [02:13:52] That was good point.

John Dehlin [02:13:53] That was believe that Joseph Smith used a peep stone and a hat to translate the Book of Mormon as the church now claims. Others believe that the whole stone in the hat thing is made up by anti Mormons to tear the church down. And then there's the whole 6,000 year Earth.

Megan Connor [02:14:09] There's the whole.

John Dehlin [02:14:10] The earth's core is not melt molten rock. It's. It's ice. That, that's where the waters receded to and Noah's flood. You know, just all sorts of stuff on and on.

Lauren Mathias [02:14:21] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:14:21] So lots of diversity.

Lauren Mathias [02:14:22] Lots of diversity. So besides being LDs, you wouldn't really understand what is it that they all have in common. And the thing I walked away with understanding the one thing they all had in common was an extreme political view. That was what these people all have in common was this extremist political view. I'm not talking your average politics extreme and I know that Chad had that. I've. We know. You know, I've. I've heard things about Tim having a lot of these extreme beliefs and I just feel like we cannot do this, we cannot do justice to this episode and to this topic. If I can't bring that up that there are some extremist political views and that is what unites these like minded Mormons and I think, you know, with that being said and then visions.

Lauren Mathias [02:15:19] And then visions, this belief in visions. Here I have Roger K. Young's book too. Roger King started the, the website of vow as a thief in the night.

John Dehlin [02:15:26] Hold it this way towards you a little bit.

Lauren Mathias [02:15:28] Oh, thank you. What does it say on the front there? I can't read it now.

John Dehlin [02:15:31] As a thief in the night.

Lauren Mathias [02:15:31] Roger K. Young A resource and reference book to assist in identifying kingdoms and events of the last years before the second coming of Jesus Christ. They're all, they're all prepping for the second coming and they're following political events to do so. You know that, that Jason Mao began his speech with let's go Brandon, Brandon in the, in the main hall and everybody laughed and cheered. And then he said I can't hear you and said it again and everyone cheered again. That's just one example. But, but you know that I know that to some that's not extreme either. But, but let's, I think a good way to do that is maybe just listen to Braxton explain this. Braxton might be able to explain.

Mindy Caldwell [02:16:15] That's a good idea.

Lauren Mathias [02:16:15] What this is better because you know,

Mindy Caldwell [02:16:17] so we have those Braxton clips. John.

John Dehlin [02:16:20] All right, let's do it.

Lauren Mathias [02:16:25] Yeah. You know, Chad, also in the speech we have that he gave the day he met Lori at the preparing of people conference in St. George that we have at Hidden True Crime that he, he actually mentioned the presidential elections and shadow government of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and then that it was a miracle of God that Trump was elected. Of course this was back in 2018 that he gave this speech.

Guest [02:16:55] So I've seen Obama there, I've seen Hillary Clinton there.

John Dehlin [02:17:01] They're not going away.

Guest [02:17:02] They're.

John Dehlin [02:17:04] Whether they get reelected or are they just continue their parallel shadow government, I don't know but they are part of the coalition and that's really what they

Guest [02:17:13] tried to do the previous eight years before Trump was elected.

John Dehlin [02:17:17] And I, I do believe President Trump,

Guest [02:17:20] it was a miracle that he became president.

John Dehlin [02:17:25] Otherwise we would probably be headed right into these tribulation. Okay.

Lauren Mathias [02:17:32] And the next one, we'll just go into the straight in the next one.

John Dehlin [02:17:35] All right

Guest [02:17:38] there. But he said that the new president will not take office. So basically the non white president, he's saying that because I don't think he's. He was saying it's a black president. He was saying of not European descent. Right. And we're all here in America of European descent. Well, Barack Obama's not from what everybody says. He's from Kenya.

Guest 2 [02:18:03] Right.

Guest [02:18:04] That's his. Not that it was born there. I'm not going to go there. I'm just saying that his heritage is Kenya, not European. And so Albert Smith said a non white president leaving office, meaning a non European, and the new president that will be elected will not be able to take office. So he'll go through an election, not take office. And because the.

Lauren Mathias [02:18:31] The.

Guest [02:18:31] The country will be destroyed before he takes office. So that's what that was.

Guest 2 [02:18:38] Okay.

Lauren Mathias [02:18:39] You know, I googled just now because I wanted. I was like, I'm pretty sure he's part. I mean, English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, German. Yes, he's African American. He has a wide ancestry, but he does have European heritage.

Guest [02:18:55] Yeah, well, that's what they just. That's what he says.

Lauren Mathias [02:18:59] But it's what. How they're interpreting this.

Guest [02:19:01] Well, so they're thinking, you know, whenever you see something that. What was that in the late 1800s when you want to know the future so bad and you see a non white president. So you're saying, oh, well, that's it. He doesn't have European descent. Well, he does because his grandmother was white and she's of European descent. So the next thing people are saying, not from any of these books in the circles I hear, because everybody likes to predict that Joe Biden will not finish his term. Kamala Harris will be president, and she is not of European descent.

Megan Connor [02:19:43] Oh, wow.

Guest [02:19:44] I don't know if that's true. I've never looked it up because I've never cared to.

Lauren Mathias [02:19:47] But this is these, these are the, the political beliefs going among the circles.

Guest [02:19:52] Well, just that they're just trying to interpret his.

Lauren Mathias [02:19:56] George Albert Smith's specific prophecy here.

Guest [02:19:59] Right. And saying that's what's going to happen. Biden, which, who knows, honestly, he can drop dead tomorrow, as old as he is. And then Kamala Harris, we all could.

Lauren Mathias [02:20:09] And.

Guest [02:20:11] And then she'll. The next president will be elected but never take office. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:20:18] I mean, political extremist views, but also just kind of racist views, like.

Mindy Caldwell [02:20:23] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:20:24] Barack Obama's mom was white. She got a grandma, like.

Lauren Mathias [02:20:29] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:20:29] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:20:30] And he hasn't looked up Kamala Harris because he doesn't care to.

John Dehlin [02:20:33] Care to. Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:20:34] Doesn't care to know facts, apparently.

John Dehlin [02:20:37] Yeah. If the person is of color. Yeah. Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [02:20:40] I think it's just really important because a lot of this prepping and this belief in the second Coming and this fear, it has to do with paranoia too. And I think it's really important to, to point out because 2023 is quite the year for Mormon crime. And you know, 2020 to 2023, I guess you could say with, you know, if you had the daybell case. And it makes me angry and it's upsetting to see such a extremists over and over and over again. The demons, the, you know, just conspiracy theories, I'll say it, conspiracy theories about what's happening and how this all is going to equate to the second coming and preparing and having special intel.

Lauren Mathias [02:21:28] Tim Ballard too. I'll, I'll be the, I'll be messenger and I'll be the one that's saying it. And I can't help but wonder if a lot of this is also polarization that we're seeing. You know, these extremists political and again, I, they are extreme political views, neither right nor left. These are extreme. But I just think that we couldn't, we can't do this episode without bringing this issue up because this is a group of like minded LDS visionary, NDE NEO fundamentalist preppers and there's an echo chamber going on. And they, they, they are getting stronger, not weaker. They are feeling empowered and, and I just think it's really important. And they are reading Visions of Glory and I just, I am, I am very concerned.

Megan Connor [02:22:24] And Chad mentioned in his speech the day that he met Lori that we just played that there's a shadow government going on. And regardless of who it is, we don't even need to say the names, but just the belief that there is a shadow government is like you're saying Lauren is paranoid. And, and then his comment that if they quote, unquote, whoever they is, you know, he intimated Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, but if they had been allowed to continue, we would already be in the end times. And so in a way it's almost like they want political divisiveness to continue to happen because like Braxton said, you've prepared for these end times. You don't want your money to go to waste. You want to use your white tent, you want to use your food storage. You know, so you want meaning and

John Dehlin [02:23:14] purpose and identity, you know.

Megan Connor [02:23:16] Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:17] And I don't think, I don't think we've adequately reiterated something that Lauren, I think we all learned from you that you can tell us the source. But just again, this idea that somebody said, if somebody just made Chad Daybell a bishop, at least one woman and two Kids, you know, and several ex husbands may not have died. You know what I mean?

Guest 2 [02:23:38] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:23:38] And what. What that's getting at is there's a whole bunch of people that feel either disinterested, bored by, uninspired by, or disempowered within broader LDS church culture. And getting involved in these prepper communities, claiming to be. To have experienced NDEs and joining these support groups like AVOW. It's a way to have identity, purpose, meaning friends, community, leadership. Leadership. Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [02:24:12] A platform. Chad Dabel never was made bishop, but he sure was a head speaker at these conferences.

John Dehlin [02:24:17] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [02:24:18] And. And he had a voice on a vow.

John Dehlin [02:24:21] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [02:24:21] That gave him purpose. And. And I think. Yeah, that's a really important thing to. To drive home. Someone very close to the chase, very close to the case said, you know, I think if Chad Daybell had just been made bishop, we wouldn't have had. We wouldn't have seen any murders. It was almost like that was making him angry that he kept being ignored. And I can't help but wonder if that's, you know, tomorrow. Harrison, too. You know, he. He's visionary, he's apostolic. He has. He has friends.

Lauren Mathias [02:24:48] And I just wonder is, does he feel ignored or. I mean, luckily he was made bishop and he has been given higher cons, but does he feel like he should be an apostle? You know, and then Tim Ballard wants to be an apostle and a prophet, like, there's something going on here. They all want to lead and feel worthy to do so. And then. And it also brings me back to this interesting idea, John, that you also brought up, that there, you know, the church is very concerned with progressive Mormons and excommunicating progressive Mormons and. And their thoughts, you know, the thoughts they might have.

Church Institutional Failures and Closing Thoughts

Lauren Mathias [02:25:25] You know, heaven forbid we want to have an LGBTQ bishop or we want to see, you know, gay people one day married in the temple. You know, can we get there? Can we keep progressing?

John Dehlin [02:25:33] Or were women in more leadership positions?

Megan Connor [02:25:36] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [02:25:36] Yes. Yes. Just simple things.

Megan Connor [02:25:41] And.

Lauren Mathias [02:25:41] And. And you get shut down for that. You know, progressives are. Are the ones being excommunicated so often. Sam Young, you know, for wanting children to be safe. And these. These extremists are meeting at conferences, and look at what is happening. Look at the fruits. And over and over again, look at the fruits. And I love it.

Guest [02:26:01] That is.

Mindy Caldwell [02:26:02] That is a.

Lauren Mathias [02:26:02] That is a scripture I love. That is a scripture I embrace on my mission, you know, and I still do. By their fruits you shall know. And that's just common sense. What do they produce? And like I said, I get it. The church is probably confused. You know, these are the missionaries. These are the people that are dedicated and loyal.

John Dehlin [02:26:19] Tithe payers.

Lauren Mathias [02:26:20] Tithe payers, you know,

John Dehlin [02:26:26] but.

Lauren Mathias [02:26:27] But they're the one. We are seeing really frightening crimes over and over and over again where people are being harmed, children are being harmed, and that's why I'm here today. And that's, you know, I had to keep thinking, why am I doing this? This episode or these two episodes? Why am I doing this? I always try to think of my why. What's the end game? And the end game is I'm really, really upset that children are being harmed again and again. People. Yes, people too, but, you know, just innocent, innocent children. You know, Jody and the Day bells and who knows who else. And this innocent woman who has a demon in her and the Maurice Harker attack.

Megan Connor [02:27:08] I just.

Lauren Mathias [02:27:10] We've got to just lay this out on the table and say this. There's something going on. What is, what is the pattern? Was the trend. Let's, let's get to a point here where we understand what's happening and not just talking about another, Another crime in the. On the calendar 2023 by Mormons. Let's just figure it out.

Mindy Caldwell [02:27:28] Yeah, absolutely.

Lauren Mathias [02:27:29] What's the common denominator? You know, and is there some wizard of Oz here? Is there some wizard of Oz and this book is, Is influencing people? I'm afraid it is.

John Dehlin [02:27:41] And the church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, if they shown us anything, they know how to denounce and shut things down. So, you know, I'll say it again.

Lauren Mathias [02:27:52] Unless it's vaccinations, they want us. Unless it's trying to get people to be vaccinated, then they can't.

John Dehlin [02:27:58] Yeah, no, but they, they can excommunicate people. They can make public statements, they can denounce things. At one point, they denounce Sunstone. Like they can denounce things and they denounce study groups. They can. They can fix this problem.

Lauren Mathias [02:28:12] Yes, they can.

Mindy Caldwell [02:28:13] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:28:14] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:28:15] They have so many resources and so many smart people working for the corporation of the church, and they're meeting all the time to talk about these problems and to talk about, you know, what's happening in the ex Mormon community and what's happening with fringe groups and whatever. I just, I just wonder, you know, what conclusions are they coming to and why are we not hearing some kind of something from them? You know, I keep saying that the silence is deafening, you know, coming from the, the corporation building over there.

Lauren Mathias [02:28:48] If they don't announce it, it makes me wonder what some of the top apostles are believing.

John Dehlin [02:28:53] We'll stop. Like,

Lauren Mathias [02:28:57] yeah, yeah, multiple mortal probations. Is that a thing now that we don't know about? Is that, is that a little secret thing we don't know about? Is that like what, what are they believing in?

John Dehlin [02:29:09] Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. All right. Well, Mindy, what an amazing part two. Thank you for organizing this and making it possible.

Wrap-Up and How to Support the Podcasts

Mindy Caldwell [02:29:19] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:29:20] Yeah. And, and Lauren and, and Megan, thank you both so much for bringing, making the trip here and for bringing your wisdom and insight. Thank you, Lauren.

Lauren Mathias [02:29:31] Thank you. Thanks for letting me be here.

John Dehlin [02:29:33] And Megan, thanks, John. Yeah, thanks to. Do you want to do a quick shout out to Hidden True Crime?

Lauren Mathias [02:29:40] Sure, if you insist. No, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Yes. Please subscribe to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime or to our podcast. If you're a podcast listener, hit in a true crime podcast. We also have a Patreon account where we have patreon only episodes patreon.com hidden true crime. And my husband is a forensic psychologist. And so we delve into the hidden motives in hidden motives into crime. The, the wise looking deep into not just the, the basic motives of, you know, sex, money, drugs. We let, we let Dateline cover the basic motives, but we, we dig deep into the why. What creates a criminal?

Lauren Mathias [02:30:21] How does this happen? Which again is probably why, you know, it's taken us four years to delve into deba and why we're why I'm here today. But yeah, it means a lot if you would subscribe and it means a lot, John, that you would have me on here and, and do this dual streaming today. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:30:39] I loved it and it's an honor to be with all three of you. Please also subscribe to mormonstroys podcast channel. I want to just thank the donors that make all of this possible. Those of you who go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button. It's those recurring monthly donations. That's the bread and butter. We always appreciate the super chats on YouTube and on Facebook, however you do stars there, whatever. But our bread and butter is our donors. And thanks to our recurring monthly donors. Please become a monthly donor. If you aren't one and you want to see this type of content continue and then, yeah, please subscribe.

John Dehlin [02:31:18] You can find Mormon stories on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and I think Hidden True Crime has channels there as well and, and more to come in that regard. But we're Also grateful for, you know, Julia. And he does time codes and show notes. Maven helps with the chats and the post production. Gerardo, Clint, you know Carrie, we Brooklyn, we've got a great staff at the Open Stories foundation. And your. Your donations make all that possible in. In addition to our co hosts and I'm exhausted. Are y' all exhausted? I'm like.

Guest [02:31:57] Donate.

John Dehlin [02:31:58] Subscribe.

Megan Connor [02:32:00] It's been a long day.

John Dehlin [02:32:01] Welcome to more. This is every day at Mormon stories. Basically, like nine hours of programming from 10 to 10.

Megan Connor [02:32:10] Anyway, well, let's hope that some of what we said today will sink in somewhere so that the crime cycle slows down and John can take a nap.

John Dehlin [02:32:18] Absolutely. Chill out, Mormon preppers. You're. You're stressing me out. Maybe that's the plan. Kill John De Lynn by What a brilliant concept. By too many news stories. Kill John de Lin just through over exhaustion.

Mindy Caldwell [02:32:33] Grand design.

John Dehlin [02:32:35] That's a conspiracy. Anyway, thanks for joining us. Be kind to each other. Be good to each other. Systems should be our target more than people love to Tom Harrison's family and even to him and to Tim Ballard's family and to, you know, just all the victims, Hildebrandts and Frankie's. We, you know, we cover this stuff because we feel like education can help prevent harm. But there are real people. The Vallows, the Daybells, just love to all the people and the families involved, including the people we're mentioning. We don't want to harm anyone. We're not trying to target people. We're just trying to help educate people. So love to everyone, hope everyone understands our. Our motives. And anyway, take care, everyone. We love you and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast and Hidden True Crime. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.