Mormon News Podcast

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Mormon News Podcast. I am your co host for today, John Dehlin. It's July 10, 2026. We're live streaming, and we're here with Meggan from generally unquotable. Hey, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:00:16] Hey, John. Good morning.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] How. How's this week been in Mormon news? Is it a slow week, a busy week? What would you say?

Meggan Hayes [00:00:23] I have not had a slow week in almost three years. This week is the same.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Why do we laugh at dark things? I don't understand it.

Meggan Hayes [00:00:32] I don't know. Because every week I'm like, this week's gonna be a slow week, and then it's not.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Well, I'll wipe the smile off my face because we're. We're gonna start pretty heavy. The. The headline for today, which is a new headline, because I think it just broke maybe yesterday. LDS apostle's brother, meaning Wade Christofferson, the brother of D. Todd Christofferson, face his life in prison because I believe he pled guilty. So not. Not for spoilers, but that's the newest headline. That wasn't. That wasn't the original headline. So what else do we have? Go ahead, Meggan.

Top Story: The Middle East

Meggan Hayes [00:01:14] Well, I put the breaking news first, so.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] Oh, should we just. Oh, okay. Before we give the overview of the other stories for. For this week.

Meggan Hayes [00:01:25] Yeah, they're in there if you want to look at them. But I was like, that's great. Yeah. Throw in the breaking news in.

3 hours is too long for CNN Videos

John Dehlin [00:01:30] Okay, let me just tell everyone I did get feedback that 3 hours is too long. And maybe. I don't think I asked you. Do you think three hours is too long? Like, in terms of, like, maximizing viewership versus doing the depth that we like to cover? What's your opinion on that?

Meggan Hayes [00:01:46] I like, I've looked at the view count, which I don't typically do on my own videos, and I think it's actually been pretty good. I. It's hard because my videos are typically really short.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:01:57] And people who want a short video and a really brief news thing, they go there. But this is supposed to be more in depth, so I don't really think two, three hours is a lot considering how much we cover.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] Okay. All right. Well, that's good. That's good feedback. Your feedback is crucial. I'll say. I'll try and not be as verbose, but. And still, let's go as deep and as thoughtful as we feel like is valuable. We'll see how today goes.

Meggan Hayes [00:02:24] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] How does that sound?

Meggan Hayes [00:02:26] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] Okay. So I didn't mean to steal your thunder. Keep going. Tell us about this breaking news.

Wade Christofferson Pleads Guilty to Child Sexual Abuse

Meggan Hayes [00:02:33] Breaking news. Wade Christofferson, brother of LDS apostle D. Todd Christofferson, which is a detail that a lot of the news stories left out, pleaded guilty in Federal Court yesterday, July 9 to coercion and enticement of a minor, an offense that carries a mand minimum sentence of 10 years and up to life in prison. Wade S. Christofferson, 73, admitted to coercing and enticing minors under the age of 10. Okay, so, yeah, that sums it up. I. I don't know if I'm surprised or not

John Dehlin [00:03:07] guilty. Yeah, I'm not. Well, yeah, that's right. That's right. Why do you say you're, you're not sure if you're surprised?

Meggan Hayes [00:03:16] I don't know, just at the, his high profile and trying to kind of keep the news stories down, but then also at this point he's been a lifelong member and I think he just knows he can't get out of it.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:03:33] So I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] Yeah, let's. It looks like you put together a timeline, which I think is really useful for those who don't. No, I'll say to our Never Mormons, this is a big deal because will you explain to our Never Mormons the First Presidency and D. Todd Christofferson's role and what that means to Mormonism? Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:03:52] Yeah. The First Presidency is the highest governing body in the church and the prophet of the church and his two counselors are prophet seers and revelators. They're the ones who get information from God to deliver to the church, so

John Dehlin [00:04:08] called special witnesses of Christ, which to a believing Mormon means they talk to Jesus. I think.

Meggan Hayes [00:04:14] Yeah. Yeah. That is the view that members are given.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Yeah. So, yeah. So obviously we'll talk about the timeline, but, but you could, you could argue that would be reasonable for a member to expect that Jesus would say, hey, D. Todd, Elder D. Todd Christofferson, your brother is abusing children or is about to abuse children. Can you, you know, let me just, I care about children more than anything. Let me help you take care of your brother so that at a minimum, children aren't harmed. But once they get harmed, assuming your theology is that God or Jesus wouldn't intervene to override someone's free agency, maybe that as soon as it's happened, D. Todd Christofferson could be alerted by Jesus so that then the authorities could be notified. Like, I don't know. Is, is this, am I just talking science fiction now? Like, what do, what do you think?

Meggan Hayes [00:05:20] No, the leaders in the church Male leaders who have the priesthood and have stewardship over certain groups of people are told to have the gift of discernment, which means they should be able to tell when someone is not worthy to be doing what they're doing. And that's something that we are taught in the church very explicitly. So if D. Todd Christofferson has discernment and he's a special witness of Christ who is getting revelation from God through the prophet, he should have known. And the timeline makes it even more interesting because when he was put into the first presidency and when the news broke.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] Yeah, so, and there's more to it because we've interviewed, we've interviewed people who were close to the situation with Wade when it happened. Maybe that'll come out in the timeline, because for me, yes, yes. As you and I know, we get. I get notified of a, of an abuse case in Mormonism multiple times a day now. So at least 700 to a thousand times a year, people say, john, I've got an abuse story in the Mormon Church that I want to share with you. You said you have similar volumes, right?

Meggan Hayes [00:06:42] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] So on the one hand, it's almost like child abuse cases in the Mormon Church aren't really news worthy in a weird, twisted way because they're as ubiquitous as a Sunday service.

Meggan Hayes [00:06:59] I know there has to be something that makes it stand out, which is sad, but there are so many.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] On the other hand, every child abuse case is horrific and deserves to be shouted from all news rooftops everywhere. To me, what makes this particularly newsworthy is that if it touches the highest levels of the, of the Mormon Church and it's one of its top three leaders in the world who allegedly speaks to Jesus and does the right thing that Jesus would want him to do. When did Dean Todd Kristofferson know that his brother was a child abuser? Was it all the way back in the 90s? Was it more recent? And was he involved in a cover up or in making decisions that allowed his brother future access to children after his brother was found guilty of pedophilia? When and where did D. Todd Christofferson notify the police once he knew? And if he did it too late, why did he do it so late? And if he did it early, why weren't we all notified, including the family members of the victims who maybe could have protected their children, the most recent victims, from being abused? So with that, let's go to the timeline, because I want people paying attention to the timeline and for us to be discussing the timeline in that Context. Is that okay?

Wade Christopherson's Sexual Abuse Timeline

Meggan Hayes [00:08:28] Yes. Yep. Yeah. And that's why I put it in there.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] Perfect.

Meggan Hayes [00:08:31] Okay, so 1985 was when Wade moved to Crystal Lake, Illinois, and began attending an LDS ward there.

John Dehlin [00:08:39] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:08:39] 1985 and 1992. Multiple women later allege wed Wade sexually abused them as children during this period. So that was late 80s, early 90s, including at church activities, sleepovers, and LDS related gatherings.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] Okay, quickly, you say women. You're. Are you saying he abused women at the time, or are you saying that women who are women now say that when they were girls, they were abused by him, or is it both?

Meggan Hayes [00:09:09] So he was. He was abusing children? I don't know that he was abusing anyone who was an adult. And they did not. A lot of them did not disclose as children. They disclosed as adults. So that's what it's saying, is that women came forward and said, in this time period, I was abused by weight. I was a child at the time.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] Women over the past several years have come out now saying they were abused by weight back then. Perfect. Thank you for helping me understand. Okay, keep going.

Meggan Hayes [00:09:36] So 1990 to 1991, despite at least one alleged victim reporting abuse to her bishop, Wade is called as first counselor in the bishopric. Okay, so that is. Yeah. His first big calling after there is alleged abuse already disclosed.

John Dehlin [00:09:54] Okay, so he's getting called to be one of the top three leaders of his Mormon congregation in the early 90s after he's already started abusing children. Is that right? Okay. Okay. All right.

Meggan Hayes [00:10:10] Yep. In 1992, released from the bishopric after additional concerns emerged. So they did release him. That's a Good start. In 92.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] Okay. All right, Good to know.

Meggan Hayes [00:10:23] And then this is where we also have D. Todd in the timeline. So in 1993, Wade's brother, D. Todd Christofferson, is called as a general author.

John Dehlin [00:10:33] Okay. And what I know about D. Todd Christofferson is that he. He is an attorney, and he spent a lot of his early career in Nashville, Tennessee, rising to the level of stake president in Nashville and, you know, as an attorney there. And that would have been what would have preceded him being called as a general authority. So he has an attorney background, a legal background.

Meggan Hayes [00:11:03] Yeah, that's common in LDs higher leadership.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] Right. It's almost a requirement these days. Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:11:09] Yeah. Yeah. And then in 1996, Wade is excommunicated for child sexual abuse by an Illinois state disciplinary council. Multiple survivors later say local leaders never reported the allegations to police.

John Dehlin [00:11:23] Okay. And I. Shoot. I don't always have in my brain the Names of even the people that I've interviewed recently. But is it Ed Natural? Is that his name?

Meggan Hayes [00:11:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] You want to talk about my interview with him and how he ties into this, or is that in a future slide?

Meggan Hayes [00:11:40] No, it's not in a future slide. We could talk about it. So he was part of that disciplinary council, witnessed it, if I remember correctly. Yes. I don't. Well, I don't remember what his calling was at the time.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] Yeah, yeah, well, he was on the Stake High Council. Okay, so he was in the disciplinary council when Wade. He was friends with Wade before Wade's disseminated council. Then he was part of the disseminated council that excommunicated Wade. And. And then. So he was able to confirm, before I think anyone was able to confirm this, that Wade was indeed excommunicated for child abuse. And he did that on Mormon Stories podcast last fall, if I remember right. And then also he was able to report that the rumor that was spread around the warden stake was that. That Wade Christopherson was excommunicated for an affair, not for child abuse. So he feels like the bishopric and stake presidency encouraged that misinformation to be spread because there was never any indication to any of the ward or stake members that there was a child abuser among them. Correct?

Meggan Hayes [00:12:58] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] And he's lived with that, knowing that there have been subsequent victims. He's lived with the guilt and the shame of being quiet about that for decades. And that's partly why he wanted to come clean. And also he just wanted to make sure people knew that higher level Mormon leadership were pressured, pressured, were pressured and pressured members to not disclose the real reasons. And I think the implication is to misinform the warden stake about what his offenses were. Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:13:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:40] Okay, let's keep going.

Meggan Hayes [00:13:42] So then in 1997, he was re baptized into the LDS Church less and in less than a year, moves to Ohio.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] Okay, and do I have to do. Should I note that it took him three. It took him four years between releasing him as bishop, knowing he was a child abuser and actually excommunicating him. Am I reading that right?

Meggan on Wade Christofferson's Excommunication

Meggan Hayes [00:14:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] And that tracks with our experience. Like, recently, we interviewed a woman from Pennsylvania whose husband was excommunicated. And I. I believe he was bishop, you know, when the church discovered that he. I don't have the details right, but. But the long story short is the church often delays excommunication as long as it can. It avoids reporting to police, delays excommunication as long as it can. When it excommunicates it still almost never tells the membership. And this fits that pattern. This way, Christopher Story fits that pattern, Right?

Meggan Hayes [00:14:55] Yep. Well, and then for him to be re baptized less than a year later is. That's wild to me.

John Dehlin [00:15:03] Yeah. So why in the world would they. Number one, why would they re. Baptize a child abuser within a year when like Lavina Fielding Anderson, who was excommunicated for naming abusers in. In 1993 for 30 years, tried to get rebaptized or more, and they declined letting her. Why do they let child abuse whistleblowers like Sam Young or Lavina Fielding Anderson, why do they prohibit them from rebaptism, but they rebaptize pedophiles within a year of their pedophilia abuse? Isn't that just outrageous?

Meggan Hayes [00:15:39] Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. Not. Not if their goal is to protect children.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they'll say it's about repentance in the atonement, but what about protecting the children, especially when no one knows? And then also, is there any way, Meggan, that D. Todd Christofferson wasn't made aware of the excommunication and wasn't made aware of the rebaptism, and in my opinion, probably participated in the rebaptism himself? And then what about the annotation of his record? And you may talk about this in a future slide.

Meggan Hayes [00:16:18] So I've looked at pictures, family pictures of them, because they have so many that are public over the years. And even in that year's time, if Wade was not allowed to participate in things that excommunicated members can't participate in, his family, I would assume they knew. Even if, just for that reason, even if D. Todd was not in his position of power, they would have to know that something was going on. So I don't see a reality where Todd did. Did not know that his brother was excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:16:54] Yeah. And without divulging confidences, my sense is that his broader family and, you know, the Christofferson brothers are kind of famous. I think there's either four or five Christofferson brothers.

Meggan Hayes [00:17:09] Five.

John Dehlin [00:17:10] Okay. Five Christofferson brothers and ones in Apostle, slash in the First Presidency. The other one is Tom Kristofferson, who is a famous gay Mormon who was excommunicated for decades and. And then left his life partner just in the past five to 10 years to get rebaptized into the Mormon Church, and then wrote a book that was sold at Deseret Book, which is a lovely book, trying to get active, faithful Mormons to be more loving to their LGBT family members and friends. So that's Tom Christofferson. So those two Christopherson brothers are kind of Mormon famous. And then photos of the five Christofferson brothers in. In suits and white shirts at church events is also kind of a meme that's pretty prominent within Mormonism. Is that. Would you agree with that, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:18:07] Yeah, there was no shortage of pictures of them altogether.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] Yeah. So the fact that they're so tight knit and so Mormon suggests that they all would have known that. That Wade was excommunicated, and they all would have known that Wade was rebaptized and probably celebrated it. The question is, how much would the broader Christofferson family have known? Why. Why Wade was excommunicated? And I don't know for sure, but my understanding is that it's possible that the broader Christofferson family were not made aware that Wade was a child abuser. Now, does that, does that fit your understanding or would that blow you away, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:18:57] No, that fits my understanding because otherwise he would not have been in a position. Wade would not have been in a position of trust to abuse the children that he abused more recently because they were related. So if.

John Dehlin [00:19:10] Okay, wait. Okay, I have to pause you. This is a big deal. And. And is it public who the victims, recent victims, are or were? Because my understanding is that has not been disclosed and is not public.

Meggan Hayes [00:19:29] Well, now I'm wondering why I know that then.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] Yeah. Okay, so let's not, let's say allegedly or. Because we also want to be respectful to victims.

Meggan Hayes [00:19:43] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] Don't want to be disclosed or if it's not public information yet. So you were saying something that I think is reasonable. Let's take the family element out of it. You were saying that there's a chance that if the, if the broader Christofferson family, and I mean uncles and, and nephews and nieces and cousins would have been aware, there's a chance that whoever the victims were, family or not, possibly could have been protected and not been abused. Is that what you were saying?

Wade Christofferson Sex Abuse Case

Meggan Hayes [00:20:19] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] If the information, without feeling like we know for sure who the victims were, whether or not they were related.

Meggan Hayes [00:20:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:28] I don't want to talk over you. I think you understand why I'm trying to make sure we're extra careful about protecting alleged victims.

Meggan Hayes [00:20:37] Yes, absolutely. And if the church had been concerned with protecting future victims, they would have made it more public or even the family, if they, you know, who knew in the family, they would have made it more widely known.

John Dehlin [00:20:56] Okay, I'm going to share a comment from Julia. She says, I think it is assumed that the victims are family because some of the evidence introduced is FaceTime calls with very close access to these children. And so without saying that we know anything, I think part of what might lead people to assume or conclude that it was either grandchildren or, you know, grand nieces or grand nephews of Wade Kristofferson, members of the Kristofferson blood bloodline family would be who else would Wade Christofferson have had, how else would Wade Kristofferson have had intimate deep close access to pre pubescent children where he's FaceTiming them like it it that evidence would lead one to conclude that it most likely was grandchildren. But if not grand nieces and grand nephews, is that, what is that a, is that reasonable but also still being sensitive, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:22:13] Yes. Yeah. Because if just a random older man would not be, would typically not be FaceTiming with someone who's in a different state, a child in a different state, unless they were related in some way, I mean that's just the most reasonable way to explain that.

John Dehlin [00:22:37] Yeah. And, and another comment from Julia from the District of Ohio, Ohio webpage, quote, in November, and this may be on your slides, in November 2025, Christofferson was overheard on a sexually explicit FaceTime call with a minor victim. So again, that would suggest that that number one, he's got access to a child and that that someone else was around knowing that he had access to the child. Likely. And then, then they overheard it. I mean, if this isn't a family member, I, I think it'd be highly unlikely that this isn't a family member.

Meggan Hayes [00:23:17] Yes, I agree.

John Dehlin [00:23:18] And then also I think the victim spanned Utah and Ohio where he lived. And again, I have no idea where his, his children or grandchildren might have lived. But again, if it's Utah and where he lives, again, that seems to be suggesting family connections. What other parent is giving detox, giving Wade Christofferson FaceTime access to their prepubescent children? Right?

Meggan Hayes [00:23:47] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, super close family friend maybe, but.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] And I'll just say the reason we're not trying to out any victims, this is only about one thing. Has the Mormon Church and has D. Todd Christofferson, the apostle and First Presidency member, did they do what they should have, what was legally required and, or ethically and morally required to protect children? And if this was all part of the Christofferson family, then like, and they're all Mormons, like, this is Just a classic example of how the Mormon Church's flawed abuse pro approach from the very top endangers children and family members. And how, like, tragic it is that it's that the family members of even an apostle and First Presidency member possibly could have been endangered by an apostle who's an attorney who was observing these flawed practices. It's systems, not people, is what I'm saying.

Meggan Hayes [00:25:02] Yes. Yeah. And if he was operating within the system, detailed, and so did not disseminate the information, did not report it, then yes, the system is flawed.

Bro. Todd Was Re-Baptized in the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [00:25:14] Okay. All right, I'm sorry. I'm, I'm, I'm slowing things down. You said that he was rebaptized in 1997.

Speaker C [00:25:23] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] What's your, what's your take that it likely d Todd knew of, approved of, supported, and maybe even performed the rebaptism. Like, I know that's a lot.

Meggan Hayes [00:25:33] Yeah, well, just like I said with the pictures I've seen, they get together as a family a lot. They're very close. If he was getting re baptized, I feel like it would have been a family celebration.

John Dehlin [00:25:42] And also my understanding is rebaptisms of excommunicated members in the Mormon Church require First Presidency approval. Is there any chance the First Presidency would be approving this rebaptism without them notifying their general authority or even consulting one of their general authorities who was the brother of the abuser being rebaptized? What do you think?

Meggan Hayes [00:26:07] Yeah, I would think he would have had to have known. I, I don't know. When they bring this up, if the First Presidency has to approve every person who's re baptized, is that in their meeting when they're in that room where they all sit in the circle and have the big screens that show them what's going on? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how many people get re baptized each year, but this one certainly would have come to their attention, and I would be very surprised if they didn't talk to detailed about it.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] Yeah. Okay. And I'll just shout out, I, I think Mormonish Rebecca have been important sources for this. Is that right?

Meggan Hayes [00:26:42] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:26:43] Give a shout out to Rebecca and her great work in Mormonish because a lot of this stuff is because of her just journalistic work along with yours, Meggan, I know is also valid. Okay, so let's go to the next. Oh, I'll just say one more thing. Dublin, Ohio is ironically super interesting because after Mormon's story, after I was excommunicated in 2015, I came to know the Cody and Leah Young family, who was this amazing couple that had a support group in Dublin, Ohio, where they were supporting Mormons in faith crisis. And this is just mind blowing. This beautiful, young, brilliant couple was excommunicated for the crime of having a support group for Mormons who were struggling in their faith. And ironies of all ironies. Wade Christofferson was in the bishopric when Lee and Cody Young were excommunicated. And by the way, I traveled to Dublin, Ohio, to cover and be present at their excommunication. And this was all while Wade Christofferson was in their bishopric, leading them, presiding over their excommunication. So let's just get. Get this straight. Wade is a child abuser who was rebaptized after a year for. For abusing a child. He's part of the disciplinary function, presiding over the excommunic communication of a Mormon couple for having a support group for Mormons in faith crisis. And to this day, Lee and Cody Young have not been rebaptized, but Wade was allowed to continue. And not just continue to rebaptize, but to be in a bishopric. Like, you just can't make this up.

Wade Christofferson Was in the Bishopric when Lee and

Meggan Hayes [00:28:23] Wow. Yeah. I had not realized that connection.

John Dehlin [00:28:26] You did not know that part. You thought Lee and Cody Young.

Meggan Hayes [00:28:29] Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:31] Was in their bishopric, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:28:34] That. I don't know. Like, it makes me so uncomfortable that I'm laughing. Like, that is just.

John Dehlin [00:28:42] He was friends with them and they loved him. That's why we just all need to know that abusers are not most often some sinister man behind a bush pulling your kids away while they're walking to school. It's a loved, trusted family member most often.

Meggan Hayes [00:29:05] Yes. Yep. That's why it is so prevalent, because they're so easy to overlook.

John Dehlin [00:29:12] Yeah. Okay, I'm slowing this down next. But this is important. I think this is important. Keep going.

Meggan Hayes [00:29:17] Yes. 1998 to 2023. Wade serves in numerous LDS leadership callings in Ohio, including bishopric counselor, ward clerk, stake Sunday school presidency counselor. According to survivor accounts cited by floodlight, a restriction on serving with youth was eventually removed from his membership record.

John Dehlin [00:29:36] Floodlit. Someone else we should shout out. They do work. What do you want to say about that blurb, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:29:42] I think it just shows that he was put back into positions of trust. And in Mormonism, once you're put, especially something like a bishopric, it is implied that you are a safe person and that you are worthy.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's just mind blowing that the. And this is a perfect example of what we've been saying for decades now. It's mind blowing that the Mormon Church, just like the Catholic Church in Spotlight, by the way, takes repeat child abuse offenders and just relocates them or allows them to relocate, doesn't notify future areas and then puts abusers, puts future victims in harm's way. By putting keeping abusers, child abusers in the system and not notifying and warning the members, they are knowingly and intentionally recycling abusers back into the Mormon wards and congregations and creating. Guaranteeing future child abuse. And this is just another exhibit of, of thousands at this point, right?

Meggan Hayes [00:30:58] Yes, yes. And, you know, people will say, well, if you're outing them, then that's not giving them the chance to go through the atonement. And once the atonement has come through, then they're fine. But if someone is truly repentant and they are owning their mistakes, then they will say, yes, I did this. They won't need it to be hidden.

John Dehlin [00:31:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the church should. If the, if the United States or if states can have a federal sexual child abuse registry, why wouldn't the Mormon Church have one? They certainly know who the child abusers are, or at least tens of thousands of them are. They could put them in a registry. It could be on LDS tools if they wanted to keep it for members only. And you could just know who the child abusers were in your ward, stake or branch. Right?

Meggan Hayes [00:31:47] Yeah. I mean, are they just worried about liability? I mean, if they confess, though, I, I think that could.

John Dehlin [00:31:54] Why, why would they, why would they worry more about liability than the, than the, than the safety of children?

Meggan Hayes [00:31:59] Because they function like a corporation.

John Dehlin [00:32:01] Right. But I mean, if they're, if they're trying to be. What. Do what Jesus would want. And Jesus said. What did Jesus say about children and millstones? Can you remind us?

Meggan Hayes [00:32:11] Yes. Hang with them. Hang a millstone on their neck and put them to the bottom of the sea versus what?

John Dehlin [00:32:17] Farmer child.

Meggan Hayes [00:32:18] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:19] Yeah, yeah. So if that's what Jesus wants and they're special witnesses of Christ, you would assume they would prioritize protecting children over everything else, which would mean best practice would be to have a child the sex offender registry, which means they would find a way to do it that members could access, not just bishopric leaders, but members, so that everyone could protect themselves. Right. And they could do.

Meggan Hayes [00:32:42] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] But they don't do it.

Meggan Hayes [00:32:46] No, they don't. Like, part of. If a child abuser wants to go through the repentance process, part of that process should be public disclosure and public safety.

Public disclosure of child sexual abuse in the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [00:32:57] Yeah, public safety. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So horrible complicity and culpability on the part of Mormon church leaders. And this is systemic. For a century, if you just look at the Boy Scouts of America, child abuse. Tens of thousands of Mormon boys have reported being victims of child sexual abuse in Mormon Boy Scout troops and wards. Okay, next up next part of your slide timeline.

Married Todd Christofferson Ordination

Meggan Hayes [00:33:31] Okay, so then in 2008, D. Todd Christofferson is ordained as an apostle. So he was a member of the 70, and now in 2008, he's officially an apostle.

John Dehlin [00:33:42] Any. Any thoughts on that?

Meggan Hayes [00:33:44] He's just still rising in the ranks. Did he already know? At this point? We don't know. Was he probably partaking in his brother's re. Baptism? We can think probably. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:57] So advancement. Right.

Meggan Hayes [00:34:00] What's that?

John Dehlin [00:34:01] And his leadership advancement. Right.

Meggan Hayes [00:34:03] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:05] Really quickly. It's interesting to note that historically, not only can women not serve in bishoprics, obviously, but divorced men aren't allowed to serve in bishoprics. Historically. And. And historically. And divorced men aren't allowed to be bishops. And it's kind of weird that historically they've been okay with child abusers serving in bishoprics, but not divorced men. Like divorce is a bigger crime than pedophilia or gay men. Right. They would. They wouldn't traditionally let a gay man serve. This is another example. I've often said that the Mormon Church sees being gay is worse than being a pedophile. An apologist will get mad and say that's. That's obnoxious. That's. But look at this. Convicted known child abusers are allowed to not only get rebaptized, but be in bishoprics. But divorced men, but women, divorced men and single men, and gay men are not allowed traditionally to be in bishoprics. Being single man, historically in the Mormon Church is viewed as worse than being a pedophile.

Meggan Hayes [00:35:14] Yeah. You're not as qualified. Wow. I know. When you say it like that, it makes the contrast really stark.

John Dehlin [00:35:22] Am I. Am I. Is that being unfair? Because I want you to call me Meggan if you think I'm being unfair or hyperbolic, you know?

Meggan Hayes [00:35:28] No, no. I mean, I have never heard of an openly gay man being a bishop.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] Yeah. Or a bishopric member. Yeah. Yeah. Let alone a woman. All of this. Right.

Meggan Hayes [00:35:46] No. Well, women can't even be in a Sunday school presidency with a man as her counselor. Certainly not in a bishopric.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] Yeah. The other thing, I just want to say in fairness, because I think we want to try and be really fair in these news cast episodes I have heard infinite reports about. So. And so Apostle is mean. Or so. And so Apostle is grumpy. Or so. And so Apostle is abusive. Or so. And so General authority is a horrible person. I've only heard good things about D. Todd Christofferson. That he was loving, that he was smart, that he was capable, that he was sensitive, that he was loving. And that's from people who at top, at church headquarters, worked with him at the highest level. So I want to say good things in this podcast as well and tell me if you have any different reports.

On D. Todd Christofferson

Meggan Hayes [00:36:36] No, I do not. And it just makes me wonder what makes. What puts such a good, loving, kind person in a position to possibly hide or cover up abuse and not protect victims? What kind of a system puts a good loving man into that position where they're possibly making a choice like that?

John Dehlin [00:37:00] Yeah, and I think I've often said, and I don't know, I don't remember where I got this quote from, but I'm not claiming it's totally original, it's just my spin on the quote, but they. I've heard it said that, you know, bad people often do bad things and good people will often majorly do good, you know, usually do good things. Sometimes it takes a religion to get good people to do bad things. And I just think there's no way a person like D. Todd Christofferson's caliber, independent of a high demand religion that had a terrible abuse approach, who's an attorney, would act this way with child abusers outside of the context of this religion, with power and this atonement, this insidious. Sometimes the atonement teachings can have an insidious impact on the members. I'm not saying that the idea of forgiveness and improving and repenting is insidious. And even Jesus in the atonement, it's insidious in and of itself, but sometimes it can have an insidious impact on members, even unintentionally. And I think this is an example where religion can have a relatively good man act in unfortunately evil ways or act in ways that have evil consequences. Is that fair?

Meggan Hayes [00:38:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:22] Yeah. Okay, next timeline.

Todd Christopherson: How Did He Learn About Wade's Abuses

Meggan Hayes [00:38:25] Okay. Around 2020, according to an official church statement, D. Todd Christofferson first learned through family members about allegations that Wade had sexually abused multiple children approximately 30 years earlier. The church says Todd did not report because he respected the adult survivor's wishes.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] Okay, reactions on that. I've got a couple, but I want to hear yours.

Meggan Hayes [00:38:48] Well, I don't. I mean, that's what they're willing to say. I do wish we knew when he knew how far back he knew. So, yeah. Tell me what your response is.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] This again leads me to think it was a family member because first of all, how did Todd Christopherson learn about Wade's abuses? You know, who's Wade going to likely, most likely have access to? It's going to be Christopherson family members. Right. How's. How's D. Todd likely going to learn? He's likely going to learn because it's through the family. Because it certainly wasn't through the judicial system. It certainly wasn't through, you know, other, other victims of other families. Would they have been able to keep it all secret? Would it not have gotten out in the ward or stake at some point? Especially because Mormon stories in the, in the ex Mormon Internet is raging at this point. So this leads me to believe it was a family member of D. Todd, that it was kept in the Kristofferson family. And especially when it says he didn't report because he respected the adult survivors wish. I don't know. Like I, I have more questions than answers there. How did Todd learn about the adult survivors to begin with? And then how did he learn about their wishes? Is he interviewing victims? Which victims is he interviewing? And then how do we know? How can we be sure that that, number one, he's interviewing all the victims and number two, that the victims that he interviewed really seriously said don't report. Like this is fishy to me. Well, you know what I mean. Because.

Meggan Hayes [00:40:47] Yeah. Well. And I've seen there was one of the victims who, when the, when the news first broke floodlit, was, I believe, in contact with them. And they were saying, I've been trying to get someone to listen to me about this for years. So I don't think that's the victim that he got his information from because with the amount of victims there were, I don't know that there's a number. But he, I don't think he interviewed all of them. And I think that he, you know, that statement was based off the few that maybe he did get information from.

John Dehlin [00:41:19] Yeah. When I did a recent interview about the Mormon stake president in Pennsylvania who covered up abuse and then was made a. And was. Was. Was. Was con.

Speaker D [00:41:37] Was.

John Dehlin [00:41:38] Was charged with failure to report and then was. Was supported by the church in getting off for failure to support and then promoted to general authority or area authority 70 recently in that story, what I learned is that when the church lawyers interview victims who were members, they only will talk to members they believe are going to be cooperative. And that led me to believe that they intentionally don't even communicate with any potential victim who they believe will want these stories to be reported to police or want them to be made public. So that's another thing that this makes me think of because I'm going to just, I've spoken openly about this and I'm going to admit to it again. A few years ago I had a alleged victim of Wade Christofferson come to me as an adult and say, John Will, you know, can you help me publicize this? And because I have dealt with defamation issues and I can't, my organization can't handle more lawsuits than we have to deal with already. And I wasn't going to jump to allegations with a super rich church involving a Christopherson without collecting evidence. I, I did my best to ask for evidence and I did my best to use my sources to vet the possible validity of this alleged survivor's story. And the feedback I got was, was that people in the know did their best. Number one, they weren't aware of this happening in the family and two, they did investigations to find out whether the allegations had evidence or, or were credible. And from the sources that I talked to, the feedback that came back to me from family was that the alleged victim's stories were demonstrably not credible.

Speaker D [00:43:58] Wow.

Meggan Hayes [00:44:00] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:44:00] And what that said to me was unless the, unless the sources communication with the family members were lying to, to me, they didn't know that there were actual victims of child abuse either within the past five to six years. Which would mean that Diet Deton Christofferson by 2020 either didn't tell his what once he knew that there was abuse, most likely in his family, we're assuming, but allegedly most likely in his family that either he didn't notify his brothers and the sisters in law and nieces and nephews and grandchildren either. D. Todd Christofferson didn't notify the broader members of the Kristofferson family or the Christofferson. The sources that I had with connections to the Christofferson family lied to me to my face telling me that no one knew in the family. Because if I'm just, you know, so those are big questions for me as well is if D. Todd Christofferson by, by six years ago knew that his brother was a, was a child abuser, even if he wanted to respect the victims by not reporting to the police, did he report to his brothers and nieces and nephews and grandchildren and grand nieces and grand nephews to help keep them safe? And my sense is either he didn't Or I'm being lied to by people close to the family or some combination thereof.

Meggan Hayes [00:46:01] Yeah, that's an interesting sequence of events. But yes, it does point to a reality where it stayed in a very small number of people, that information.

John Dehlin [00:46:13] Because certainly if it were nieces, nephews, or grandchildren, adult nieces, nephews, or grandchildren, who were the ones that should have been or could have been informed, it's most likely they weren't. Because would nieces, nephews, children, or grandchildren of the christofferson family have given Wade close access to their children or his grandchildren or his grand nieces and nephews? Would they have ever done that if they had been told in 2020 that Wade was a child abuser?

Meggan Hayes [00:46:58] What.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] What would you guess as a parent, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:47:00] I mean, as the parent I am now? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I would not give someone that type of access. They were writing letters, they were having private FaceTime calls. I would not do that. However, I can say that as a believing Mormon, early on, when my kids were little, I could have been fairly naive to the point of not understanding fully what it meant if someone told me that someone else had abused a child, like sexually abused a child, if that person had repented and gone through the atonement, I might have given them, I don't think, private access ever. But maybe I would have been a little more naive than I am now if I'm, like, just trying to really, you know, get into my Mormon brain. But it really doesn't make sense that he still had access. There was no reason for him to still have access to children in that way.

Should the wishes of the victims be prioritized over reporting child abuse

John Dehlin [00:47:59] And should D. Todd favor the requests of the victims over reporting to police to protect everyone involved? Ward members, stake members, family members, friends? Should the wishes of the adult victims be prioritized over reporting child abuse to police, in your opinion, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:48:28] Oh, that is such a. I. No, I. I don't think so. From my lived experience, I think protecting children comes first. If we have to have a priority. It's difficult because as a victim myself of sexual assault, it's interesting. Like, it's. It's hard to say that a victim's feelings would maybe take second priority, but as an adult, I would think they would have to wish that and hope that and do everything that they could to make sure someone else doesn't go through that. Adults have the responsibility to then process what happened to them. A child doesn't have those same tools.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:49:19] So it is. It is the dual responsibility to deal with what happened to them and to protect children from the same thing. Happening to them.

John Dehlin [00:49:31] And the only real way to do that is to report it to the police. That I'm aware. I'm going to say I'm not an expert on this issue. I'm open to learning. But my inclination, after having swimming in reports of child sexual abuse for two decades now, my inclination is to just say affirmatively that the Mormon Church, this is the biggest sin of the Mormon Church of all the sins I've ever discussed is institutional systemic child abuse for at least 100 years. And I'm going to say that what they need to do is reform so that reporting to police of child abuse and child abusers and is always mandatory. Unless someone wants to tell me some examples where it shouldn't be that it's always mandatory or that the default is that it's mandatory and that they should use their influence in state legislatures if there are pre penitent laws that are preventing the immediate reporting to police, that they should use their lobbying and their money and their power and their influence in Utah, Idaho, Arizona, California, wherever to change the laws so that religion and religious service doesn't continue endangering children by using the priest penitent rules as a shield.

Meggan Hayes [00:51:07] Yep, absolutely. Because Mormon leaders are not trained for the most part, unless their career already trains them for this. They are not trained to handle abuse. They don't know how to, to interact with a child victim. Yeah, that's not something that they're people who are trained, need to be informed. Police, child services. Am I. Those people don't always react the way that they, you know, the best way possible. But the information needs to be given to people who are trained to handle situations like that.

John Dehlin [00:51:52] Yeah. Well, a couple comments. Julia writes that Rebecca, in Rebecca Gooden's interview, some of the victims were letting their own children around the abuser. So yeah, that, that just shows how complicated this is. And that's totally true. I'm just so Rebecca Gooden is the Pennsylvania, you know, woman that I interviewed with her son about her husband who was a bishop, who was a child abuser who then got excommunicated for child abuse. And yeah, it, it was, it was the, it was Rebecca's brothers who were abused by Rebecca's bishop husband before he was a bishop. And then it was the adult brothers who were allowing their children to be around Rebecca's husband who had abused the parents. The, the Rebecca's brother. So this is complicated because sometimes even family members want, not only want to protect their, their family members from being reported to the police, but they're willing to have children still hang around pedophiles. And I think I remember Rebecca's point being stop leaving this to the, to the family members to decide because they're too close, it's too emotional. And you can't trust the emotions and the relationships of family members to make the decisions that will, that will protect other possible victims.

Meggan Hayes [00:53:46] Yes, absolutely.

Speaker D [00:53:48] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:53:48] That's an amazing point and goes right along with what I was saying. The reports need to be made to people outside of the situation with proper training to, to deal with it.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] Yeah. Another comment writes and I think this is wrong. Liz Ma3424 oh, the LDS church has a protocol to report. It's been covered extensively. This is like pure disinformation. Like, this is literally like, this is like QAnon conspiracy level, just falseness. But you not tell us why, Meggan.

Speaker D [00:54:29] No.

Meggan Hayes [00:54:30] What if a bishop or stake president or leader learns about abuse, they are to call the hotline, which goes to Curtin McConkey, which is the church's law firm. And the church's law firm is paid to protect the church. So whether or not someone is told to report typically depends on what the laws in that state are, how the abuse was disclosed, who disclosed it, where they were at the time. There are a whole bunch of things. But if, from what I have seen, if Curtain McConkey can tell them you don't have to report, they will tell them that if that is a possibility, and they will do everything they can to protect the church. So they're not in the handbook. It doesn't say if you hear of abuse report. It says call the hotline.

Speaker D [00:55:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] Yeah. And, and I would just add that I've had now hundreds and hundreds, maybe even more people report to me specifically including bishops and bishopric members, that their interactions with the hotline have always been that they, they assess the church's legal risk first. They assess the laws of the state the people in are in and the victims. And almost without exception, the council is always, whenever possible to counsel the victims and their family members and the leaders to never report unless they have to.

Meggan Hayes [00:56:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:14] To avoid excessive legal liability and or legal repercussions. That's always the default to this day. So it's error on the always error on the side of never reporting to police whenever possible. Right.

Meggan Hayes [00:56:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:35] Yeah. Just really quickly. I'm grateful for the comments people make in our live audience. Guy Sachomo writes, John and Meggan, keep doing what you're doing. Too long or too short. These are just opinions. If you were to make an error, I'd go with too long. So basically they're saying they like the in depth work that we're doing. Let's see. Julia writes also, Christopher Jenkins interview is great one to go to. As well as Bishop Bo Euler on his soft white underbelly on bishop reporting. Yes, we interviewed Christopher Jenkins, who after Bishop Bo Euler's soft white belly interview interview, came out on Mormon stories and said that he both as a bishop and after interacted just in the past few weeks slash months, slash years with the church's hotline and again confirmed that as recently as a month or two ago, the church's hotline, their default was to counsel people not to report to police whenever is possible. So y' all need to check that out as well. As well as Bull Euler's soft white on underbelly.

Meggan Hayes [00:58:01] Underbelly, yeah.

Bishop Bo in the Chat

John Dehlin [00:58:02] Interview. And by the way, Bishop Bo has joined us. Bishop Bo's in the chat. So all is, we love Bishop Bo. Shout out to Bishop Bo. Okay. Wow. We're, we're slow rolling this, but like literally. Meggan, is there any other more important issue than child abuse, systemic child abuse? No, I, I don't know.

Questions about the Kristofferson Family

Meggan Hayes [00:58:23] And, and how many times do we have to talk about this, this in depth for the church to feel pressured to make a change? Because when they make changes of this sort, it's from outside pressure.

John Dehlin [00:58:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's keep going. Go ahead, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:58:43] Okay. 2016 to 2025. Federal prosecutors allege Wade sexually abused additional children in Ohio and Utah during this period. Yeah, yeah, I mean, we've talked about that. He's continuing on because it wasn't reported. It was handled in house. He was excommunicated and then re baptized. He was put back into positions of authority. He reoffended, which statistically speaking, is what happens.

John Dehlin [00:59:09] Yeah. I'll just say in some sense, the Christofferson family, broadly assuming that this is abuse that happened within the broader Christofferson family. And again, I'm not reporting that for sure. But if it is abuse that happened in the broader Christofferson family, that makes the Christofferson family victims to the church's teachings and policies around child abuse.

Meggan Hayes [00:59:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:39] It makes it in, in the harm that happened with the Kristofferson family. Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:59:47] Because I wonder if they, if they would recognize that.

John Dehlin [00:59:52] Yeah, Yeah, I think that's interesting. And I wonder, like, I want to talk about the pleading guilty and if that impacts whether or not there would be a trial and then whether or not the church would be put on trial. Or if pleading guilty just makes it so the church gets off and doesn't have to see a discovery process where the church's complicity and the evidence of the Church's complicity in this entire case would be aired in the public. Holy crap. Did you already think about that, Meggan?

Mormon Church involvement in the Kevin Smith sex abuse case

Meggan Hayes [01:00:32] I know I'm thinking about it right now. As you're saying it. I wish I knew more about the legalities of pleading guilty versus is not and what that means as far as a, like charging and sentencing and versus a trial.

John Dehlin [01:00:48] I mean, I think, now that I think about it, criminal, number one criminal prosecutors in Utah are going to do whatever the Church wants. We've already seen so often that the law enforcement, sometimes it seems to be in bed with the Mormon Church here more than anywhere else. So this would likely need to be a civil case where the parents of the victims, whether or not they're Christofferson's, decide to sue the Mormon Church for their role in not protecting the children. And that would be what would lead to a discovery process where it could be found out whether the Church was complicit. And who knows to what extent the Mormon Church might influence the Christofferson family members, if those are the victims in question, to not take this to the public or to be pressured to be silent or to be bought off to keep it quiet. Because in the, in the Rebecca Gooden interview that we, that we talked about, one of the reasons why the stake president was let off the hook for a failure to report, as I understand it, according to Rebecca, is because church lawyers pressured the faithful believing victims to drop the charges or to not testify against the stake President who was being charged with failure to report. So that's another question. To what extent has the Mormon Church gotten involved if it's Christofferson family members or non Christopherson family members who are just faithful or influenced members by the Mormon Church, to what extent does the Mormon Church put pressure on the alleged parents of the victims to not file charges, civil charges against Wade or civil charges against the Mormon Church? Or will the parents of the victims file civil charges against Wade or civil charges against the Mormon Church? I guess it's a question.

Meggan Hayes [01:03:04] How incredibly brave would that be? And it could provide very valuable information to the public about what has happened behind the scenes.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's a comment that I think is worth sharing. Brady the apostate writes, I'll say this over and over. The church should have a victim's hotline for support of the victims, because if victims report, that's the thing. And I don't think we cover that enough. The priest penitent privilege only protects the perpetrators if they confess in an ecclesiastical setting, if a victim. And the problem is victims rarely report or, you know, become pressure. But if the parents of the victims or the victims report, there's no priest penitent privilege. And police reporting can always happen. So why doesn't the Mormon Church have a victim or a family or friends of victims hotline? So that the reporting can lead to mandatory or always reporting of abuse to police and mental health services for the victims?

Meggan Hayes [01:04:33] They are showing what their priorities are, that's why.

John Dehlin [01:04:37] Yeah, yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:04:39] Because otherwise they would have one. They have the resources.

John Dehlin [01:04:42] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:04:43] That is not their focus.

John Dehlin [01:04:45] I hope that someone at the church headquarters is watching this analysis or I hope that the Christofferson family members or if it's not Christopherson family members or if there's other victims or parents of victims, I hope they're watching this to consider what types of things they are, are in power to advocate for with this case or future victims or current victims of other or family members of other abuse victims. Because like we're slow rolling ways that victims and family members and friends and church leaders of aware of these types of cases, ways they could advocate for change today. Yes, I think. Okay, keep going, Meggan.

D. Todd Christofferson's Elevation to the First Presidency

Meggan Hayes [01:05:37] Okay. In on October 14th of 2025, D. Todd Christofferson is called to the First Presidency. It's the next part of the timeline. And then on November 6, 2025, not too long after that, after new allegations involving a minor surface. D. The church says D. Todd Christofferson reported the matter to legal authorities within hours. Other church statements say Ohio church leaders reported allegations to law enforcement the following day. The exact sequence of who reported what and when remains somewhat unclear in public reporting. That was from floodlet.

John Dehlin [01:06:14] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [01:06:14] And then in. Yeah. And then In November of 2025, Wade is arrested on federal child exploitation charges.

John Dehlin [01:06:20] Okay, what are your, what are your thoughts on, on all of that?

Meggan Hayes [01:06:25] I. I know that the church knows what happened. They keep very detailed records and I always get bothered when there's this wishy washy, you know, this happened or maybe this happened or they use language that makes it unclear.

Speaker D [01:06:44] It.

Meggan Hayes [01:06:44] I know that they know, but unless someone forces them to, they don't disclose that information.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] Yeah. Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:06:53] And right before that, the, the timeline to me is strange because if D. Todd knew in 2020, who, who else knew? Why are they putting him in the first presidency with that information?

John Dehlin [01:07:09] Should that disqualify? D. Okay, Wade abusing kids shouldn't disqualify D. Todd Christofferson for being in the First Presidency. What should in your mind, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [01:07:24] Covering up abuse, allowing not reporting abuse, and then allowing other children to be abused. My question is, D. Todd knows this. When he's getting called into the First Presidency, they're not just willy nilly picking some guy out of the crowd. They also have to know all of these things. Things.

John Dehlin [01:07:47] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:07:47] So what is their reasoning? Three weeks before Wade, the information comes out and he's arrested. Why are they putting him in the First Presidency? It's already knowing that information. It's either bold or they just thought it wasn't going to come out.

John Dehlin [01:08:03] Yeah. Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:08:05] It's such a strange. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] To just have that. I mean, it's like I just was blown away by the Rebecca Gooden episode that this man who's a stake president, who was charged with failure to report child abuse legally, that they would, the church would have the hubris to then make him an area authority. 70 like that just shows arrogance or hubris or stupidity. Maybe there's another option or a belief in innocence. I don't know. But it's mind blowing to me.

Meggan Hayes [01:08:40] Yeah. I don't, I don't understand it. Do they. Do they believe so deeply that they think the atonement has washed it away and they're doing what God wants? Because if so, that presents them in a very naive light. They shouldn't be trusted with people's lives, people's spirituality if they can't see that this was going to happen. Or if they're so naive that they just think the atonement cured him. It's strange. It's strange that Todd was put in and then his brother's crimes came out.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] There should be a movie about this. This should be like a documentary. Honestly, this could be the, the, the match or the spark to the, the Mormon spotlight movie or book or movement, which we've been waiting for for a decade or more.

Meggan Hayes [01:09:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:38] Which some have been waiting for since the 80s and 90s. Like this could be the spark or the flame that, that ignites it. And you know, if, if people have the courage to step up and investigate or speak out or whistleblow on this because it stinks so bad. I'll just say also that the fact, the fact that Wade pled guilty, I'm trying to figure out how to make sense of that from the, from the standpoint of the victims and the parents of the victims. I don't know how it can be considered anything other than a really good thing. That. That way just pled guilty, because that just keeps everyone from having to be drugged through a terrible, horrific, traumatic lawsuit. So, on the one hand, can we even say, yay, Wade, for pleading guilty for the sake of the victims and the parents? Is that even. Can you say, thank you, child abuser, for pleading guilty? Or is that too weird or odd?

Meggan Hayes [01:10:53] Yeah, I don't know. Because it's preventing them from all of this. It's also preventing him from more of a spotlight. So I'm. I'm really glad that the victims do not have to get dragged out in any way. I mean, I know there are ways to keep them anonymous and. But just going through it in the first place is horrific enough. However, it's also, the church shouldn't be able to just wash their hands of this and, and, and go back to business as usual.

John Dehlin [01:11:33] Yeah, that's the other part is while it. It's got to be good for the victims, unless, I don't know, something, it's got to be good for the victims and their family for Wade to plead guilty. I can almost guarantee the church was pressuring him to plead guilty because they wanted to avoid the spectacle. And in that sense, it does get the church off because it avoids extra press and accountability, which I've often said the two most sacred things to Mormon Church leadership in the modern era are authority and pr. And the fact that this. He's pleading guilty minimizes, it seems, the amount of bad PR and bad press and bad accountability that the Church will face, which I see is unfortunate.

Meggan Hayes [01:12:26] Yes, same, same. Because if Wade just says, it was me, I did it, I take full responsibility, then the church gets to push that all on him. And, you know, I'm sure they're hoping that they'll just fade into the shadows and not have to take any responsibility for what they knew when and for re. Baptizing him.

Speaker D [01:12:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:49] Yeah. So I just hope that if it's at all possible and healthy, or at least neutral for the friends, family, ward members, whoever involved, that people will manage their decisions. In this case, thinking of other possible victims and the system and the thousands, if not tens of thousands of children that appear to be abused yearly in the Mormon Church, still, that the people involved will make decisions that help leverage this case to. To spotlight and visibility and transparency on this case and others like it, and negative publicity, frankly, because that's one of the only things the Church will listen to. And then ultimately accountability, which leads to systemic change. That's my prayer, is that that's what will come of this Lawsuit and others like it. I don't know. Is that. That macabre? Is that unfair? What do you think?

Meggan on the Gift of Discernment

Meggan Hayes [01:14:03] No, I. I say amen. If there is someone who is involved, connected to this case in any way, who has the bandwidth emotionally, physically, to keep it from disappearing into the shadows, this is. That needs to be done. That needs to be done. And I hope they can get the support that they need because.

Speaker C [01:14:30] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:14:31] Going up against the church is no small task.

John Dehlin [01:14:34] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You. You have one slide with some tombstones. I was hoping it was saying something else, but. What are you saying?

Meggan Hayes [01:14:46] It says, here lies the gift of discernment.

John Dehlin [01:14:48] Meaning it's dead.

Meggan Hayes [01:14:50] Yeah, yeah, you. In our last episode, you said that, and I made a little drawing on my notebook to make a slide that says. And then, of course, this week we needed to use it because

John Dehlin [01:15:02] that's beautiful, that's clever, and I love that Meggan. And I also want to say the Mormon gift of discernment is a zombie.

Meggan Hayes [01:15:12] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:15:12] Next time it can't be killed. You know what I'm saying? It is killed, and then it resurrects and then it's killed. And I don't mean to be laughing or making jokes about it, but, like, it's. It's one of those things. Like the priesthood ban needs to be. The black. The priesthood ban on black. The priesthood temple ban on black members just flat out needs to be apologized for, Right?

Meggan Hayes [01:15:36] Absolutely. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:15:37] That just has to happen. Polygamy needs to be both apologized for and DNC132 just flat out needs to be removed from the Doctrine and Covenants. Am I wrong?

Meggan Hayes [01:15:47] Nope.

John Dehlin [01:15:48] And freaking. The gift of discernment. I think the decapitation of Laban needs to be somehow removed from the Book of Mormon because it's going to lead to more murders. I think that's just something that has to happen. Right?

Meggan Hayes [01:16:04] Yep. Yeah. God's not going to tell you to murder someone.

John Dehlin [01:16:07] Yeah. I think women should get the priesthood and be able to serve in all leadership. So I think that just has to happen. Right. And I think the gift of discernment needs to be killed, you know, along with prohibitions of masturbation. Like, some of these things just have to happen for the church not to be considered a cult.

Meggan Hayes [01:16:28] Yes. Because the gift of discernment allows people more power and more trust than they deserve. Like, you need to earn trust. You don't just get called into a bishopric and then discernment gives you carte blanche to be in a room with a child alone behind a closed door. That's what discernment does.

John Dehlin [01:16:53] Yeah, that's another one. No bishop should ever be alone, I would say, with, with anyone. An adult. Can we trust bishops with. With single women or divorced women or even married women. I think there's arguments that know that literally a, A, any Mormon leader should never be alone with anyone. Is that excessive? I don't know what else to say because I don't know. Can a bishop be alone with a adult man that's confessing? Yeah, but I don't. What do you think?

Meggan Hayes [01:17:31] I. I think that whole confession process could be rethought in a way that would make it a lot safer for everyone because then there's, you know, if there's not abuse happening, what kind of shame is that person feeling? Are they getting good advice and counsel? It just. It's problematic on so many fronts.

John Dehlin [01:17:48] Yeah. All right. We got a comment from autistic grandma. Grandma. She writes what happens when a state mandatory reporter becomes a bishop. Any data on that? A sibling that's a Mr. Mandatory reporter and became a bishop. I haven't questioned him. Do you have information? That's a great question. Thanks for the super chat. Autistic Grandma. Do you have any information on that, Meggan?

What Happens When a Mandatory Reporter Becomes a Bishop?

Meggan Hayes [01:18:16] Well, that's an interesting one because I've seen that too. I think someone you interviewed was a physician and also a bishop, and the church said because of the way that the abuse was disclosed, they still didn't have to report. But physicians in the United States, as far as I know, are all mandatory reporters. Right. So I don't like it depends on the state where the legality lies, where the mandatory reporter heard the confession. Because if they weren't being a physician at the time, but were being a bishop, then does the priest penitent privilege cover them? And I think in that case they were told not to report.

John Dehlin [01:18:57] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:18:57] So then I guess it covered them. I think that took precedence over their mandatory reporting as a physician.

John Dehlin [01:19:02] Yeah. Yeah. I've heard different things. I've heard that the Church won't call mandatory reporters as bishops so that they don't have to report. And then I think I've heard that the church does call them so that their failure to report so that their mandate to report can be overridden by the priest penitent privilege. So I don't even know the answer, but I would love thoughtful people to, in the comments or an email@mormonstoriesgmail.com let us know if any of you have information on this. While we're at it, I want to Just ask everyone. Our. Our YouTube channel was slowing its growth, you know, over the past year or two, because a lot of the Mormon true crime stuff was kind of in decline. And we. There's some point where there's a natural peak to any of the work that we do in Mormonism, especially if it's in depth. But if people would be willing to subscribe to this YouTube channel and like it, comment and share along with all our other channels, that that's really helpful. So please do that. If you can hit the. Click the bell, whatever, while you're at it, please do that for generally unquotable on YouTube and elsewhere, because that just helps our stuff grow. If you want to support this program.

Speaker D [01:20:23] We.

John Dehlin [01:20:23] We don't do product sponsorships on purpose because we think that's annoying. And we try to minimize ads, especially on platforms like Spotify and Patreon and Apple Podcast. We can't control the YouTube ads, really. The YouTube ads are just automatic. But if you do want to support us financially, you can go to mormonstories.org donate, become a monthly donor, and that'll help us afford to keep doing the series with Meggan and Julia and others. So please donate and support us. You can also support Meggan and generally unquotable at Patreon. Generally unquotable, is that right?

Meggan Hayes [01:21:00] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:21:01] And. And then we always appreciate your comments here in the live stream as super chats because that just throws a little money our way. It helps us pay for the episodes and it helps us actually notify. It helps notify us to see your comments because there's so many, sometimes it's hard to sit through them. Okay, Meggan, anything else with the Wade Kristofferson D. Todd Christofferson story? Before we jump on to the next

Mormon Stories: Wade Kristofferson and Todd Christofferson

Meggan Hayes [01:21:25] story, I think we just need to keep talking about it. We just need to keep highlighting it, what happened, who was involved, and keep hoping that, yeah, like you said, this could be the spotlight moment for the church.

John Dehlin [01:21:39] Okay, thanks for covering it. Great work. Great work, Meggan. Okay, before you give an overview to the remaining stories, I think. Is there one more breaking news story?

Meggan Hayes [01:21:49] I thought I had this slideshow all put together and then about 10 o' clock last night and then into this morning. Yeah, and this one is. I got. I saw the news story, but then Rebecca Biblioteca helped me with some of the background investigation. She is amazing.

John Dehlin [01:22:09] Yeah, well, she is. So thank you, Rebecca. Thank you, Julie. Thank you, Meggan. Thank you to this big community. That's beautiful. Brady Reading says thank you both. Thanks for the super Chat Brady. And thanks for the comment. And also, people should know there's another way to Support us on YouTube and that's to join. To get a membership. You can just be like on Patreon, you could be a member of our YouTube channel and you just pay a monthly thing and that's how you contribute. YouTube does take a big cut of that. So, you know, if it's, if it's easy for you to do that as a monthly subscriber through donorbox@mormonstories.org donate. But if it's easier for you to become a member contributing member through YouTube, you can do that as well. And Liz Wake614, thank you. Not only is she a YouTube member of our YouTube channel, but she's gifted five Mormon stories podcast memberships to people that want to be members. So that's another way people contribute. And thank you. Do you have any comments on that?

Meggan Hayes [01:23:09] Oh, that's awesome. Yeah.

A Mormon Bishop Called Child Abuser in St. George Area

John Dehlin [01:23:12] Okay, so before we hit the main stories, which I think are actually really cool, I was excited for them before the breaking news. What's the other breaking story you have for us, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [01:23:23] So this one here, let me go to it in my slides as well.

John Dehlin [01:23:27] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [01:23:27] A middle school teacher in southern Utah, I believe it was in Washington, Utah. Washington, St. George area Middle school teacher accused of sending sexually explicit content to undercover agents posing as minors. So that's the article heading on the right hand side. You'll see a post on his Facebook page. Michael Kleiner is his name. And this was back in 2016. It's just highlighting that he served his mission in Honduras. So this guy is definitely a member of the church. And in the next slide, former member.

John Dehlin [01:23:58] I mean.

Meggan Hayes [01:23:58] Well, no, in the next slide we will see.

Speaker C [01:24:00] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:24:01] Okay. Just trying to be accurate. Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:24:03] Yep. So he was a middle school teacher. And Michael N. Yeah, Michael N. Kleiner, who was a bishopric second counselor in the St. George YSA fourth ward Spanish from March 2023 to May 2024. He was then the stake clerk in the St. George YSA first stake for from January 2025 to two days ago. That is the most accurate information that we have that sometimes there can be one more than one person with the same name. But the coincidence there is that he was released two days ago. And then the article came out yesterday.

John Dehlin [01:24:43] This is in what state?

Meggan Hayes [01:24:44] This is in Utah. This is in southern Utah.

John Dehlin [01:24:47] St. George, Utah. Okay. Yeah. Again, RIP gift of discernment. But just so never Mormons understand, he's put in a bishopric where he's one of the three Most powerful men in an entire congregation. And then he's made state clerk, which puts him as one of the top 20 most powerful men in an entire 10 congregation area, which is like the, I've heard it compared to a Catholic diocese, like, it's a 10 congregation area. The, the Mormon church leadership, like, seem to have a proclivity to calling child abusers into the top levels of leadership. Either that or there's just a plague of child abusers everywhere in the United States. What could could it be? That this is just a human problem, not a Mormon problem? Meggan, or this is an American problem, not a Mormon problem?

Meggan Hayes [01:25:42] Well, I think it's both. I think it's an American problem and a Mormon problem. And there are two things. Number one, I think in Mormonism, where there's a very strong purity culture, that it tends to force sexuality out in ways that are unhealthy. And number two, in a church that claims to speak for God, to be the one true. One true church, to have God's priesthood power, they have set the standard higher for themselves. So they should not just be able to say, well, it's a problem everywhere. Because if they are the one true church and they have the power that they claim, they should reach their own standard that they set that is higher than the world. So I, it always bothers me because that's what people will say. Well, you know, they're child abusers everywhere. Yes, I understand that. Then if you're church is just like every other church, then just admit that, that you don't have more power, you don't have more discernment. But they won't. They come out and say, we're the one true church, we have the restored priesthood, we're the only ones with the authority. And yet they have the same problems as everybody else. So what? What good is the one true church with God's power if the standard isn't higher and the people aren't performing better than everybody else?

John Dehlin [01:27:01] Fair. All right, what's this next slide?

Utah Teacher Arrested for Sexually Exploiting Girls

Meggan Hayes [01:27:05] Okay, this is just part of the article. According to court documents, a Lehigh Internet Crimes Against Children detective was working as an undercover agent on an anonymous chat. On an anonymous chat platform called Chat Ib, a male reached out to the agent who identified himself as a 17 year old girl. The male said that he was good with the age and proceeded to ask to move the conversation to a different chat platform. As the conversation progressed, the suspect reportedly sent naked pictures of himself as well as sexually explicit videos of himself to the agent who he thought was a 17 year old girl. He also allegedly asked for sexually explicit images of the minor to be sent to him. Yeah. There was a second report from a different detective who was also engaging with Michael Kleiner, who the other agent said he was 15 years old and Michael did the same thing, sent sexually explicit photos and videos and asked for some in return. So when those two detectives found out they were both talking to the same person, they found out who it was and that's when the arrest was made.

John Dehlin [01:28:11] Got it. Oh my goodness. What are your thoughts just overall on.

Meggan Hayes [01:28:17] He was also a middle school teacher and his access to children was. And he had a lot of access to the age of children who he. Oh, we're having some really loud thunder here.

John Dehlin [01:28:30] Houston thunder, thunderstorms. And I love the heavy rainflow.

Meggan Hayes [01:28:37] Yeah, it's sunny out, but there's a storm coming from somewhere because it is rattling the house. But yeah, he had access to teenage girls and in the article admitted that he has known that he was attracted to them, but this was his first time attempting to experiment with that attraction.

John Dehlin [01:28:58] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:28:59] And all the while he is in a bishopric and then in a as a stake clerk.

John Dehlin [01:29:05] Yeah. And again, I've, I've been told by local police and or FBI agents that you, Utah is amongst the leaders in the nation in per capita reports of child abuse. So it's horrific and it's a plague. And it's clearly a plague because we're covering this every week. Right? You're not fishing for this, right?

Meggan Hayes [01:29:36] No. These two stories weren't even in here as of last night. I went to bed just because explicitly unaware, though, this is what we're going to be talking about today.

John Dehlin [01:29:45] I mean, anyway, it's just. Okay. All right. So now, now we're an hour and 30 minutes in. Welcome everyone to the main stories for today. Holy moly. Anyway, I don't apologize for slow rolling the child abuse coverage.

Mormon scandals, and more

Meggan Hayes [01:30:01] No, no. It's so important. And, and these other ones, I say this, but, you know, maybe we'll move through them a little quicker. So we have Josh James, the founder and CEO of Domo, a tech company. He's a very wealthy Mormon. Recently, body cam footage from a DUI arrest of him came out and we will compare and contrast that with statements that he made publicly about how he feels as a Mormon. And then we have a temple worthy couple who pled guilty to homicide of their own child. Yes. Then we have some clips from Mitt Romney that are on a little of the lighter side. So that'll be a. Yeah, a nice Little change of pace.

John Dehlin [01:30:45] And then this is a McKay Coppins interview, I'm guessing with.

Meggan Hayes [01:30:49] Yep. Just a few clips from him. And then Adam Clark from Eagle Mountain, Utah, who alleged that he stole money from his mountain biking club. And then is Utah the new Vegas? This one's kind of a fun one. Yeah. What's happening with marriage in Utah? And then just a small extra at the end of flock cameras at byu.

John Dehlin [01:31:10] Fun. All right, well, we hit the heavy stuff. Let's, let's cover the rest. Can I just say at the beginning, before we talk about Josh James? I, you know, I've never tried alcohol still. And I don't say that to flex. It's just a choice I've made. And I, I, I like to say it because I like people to know. I think alcohol, on the one hand, I think responsible alcohol use is always going to be with us. And I know lots of people that have healthy, responsible relationships to alcohol and cannabis. Okay. And I'm going to say that there's, my understanding is as health experts have refined their views on alcohol, there's technically no healthy, no existing known healthy use for alcohol for the body. That's, that's significant. In other words, it's always damaging to the body. Now, so is like, saturated fat and sugar. Like, I, I'm not singling alcohol out as the only thing that's harmful, but I, I want to say that I like to talk about. Part of why I mentioned I haven't drank alcohol yet is because I've seen it do damage with people close to me. And that's why I've decided to not partake of it. And I want ex Mormons and Mormons to know that even though they may change their relationship with the church and, or the word of wisdom, you can choose to not drink. It's possible. Margi and I have done it and we're not flexing. We don't think we're better than anyone. But my experience is it's playing with fire for some people. The other, but having said that, the other thing I want to say is it. I believe alcoholism and drug addiction is a disease that deserves empathy and support and treatment. And so while we're going to be covering Josh James, it's not from, it's, we believe in systems, not people. And I believe in a mental health approach, not a moralistic, judgmental approach. And so I just want to say from my standpoint, Josh James, as we talk about his dui, I hope to cover this with empathy and love and compassion, not like haha Judgy. Anything. Even though we're going to be showing a little bit of a contradiction or an irony, all the love and compassion and hope and support for Josh Jinx.

Josh James: Should We Care About His DUII?

Meggan Hayes [01:33:37] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:33:37] Anything you want to add? I know that was long, but.

Meggan Hayes [01:33:40] No, I agree with that. I agree with that because the reason that I contrast things is because I find it fascinating how people get into those situations, why they're thinking the way they are. It's not to set them up as an example or point fingers at them or laugh at them. It's because this person got into this situation and we can see it from the outside because they're a public figure. So how do we think about that? What part did the church play or does the church play? It's just the psychology of it is fascinating to me. So I don't do it as a haha, we got you you moment. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:34:17] Of course.

Speaker C [01:34:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:20] And I'll just add, I want to get a little bit of context. I know we're going to be covering this. I know of Josh James for a couple reasons. One is, you know, for those who don't know Utah and Meggan, I'm just going to say your video, your video stream is kind of choppy. I don't know if someone's using your Internet or if maybe the storm is affecting it, but your, your video is kind of frozen and pixelated. And I just want to let you know that in case there's anything you could do. But it's getting better, but I just wanted to let you know that was happening.

Meggan Hayes [01:34:48] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:34:49] I want to give a little context about Josh James. So for those who have never Mormon or don't live in Utah, they should know that Utah for years. Well, number one, Utah is the founder of some of the early pioneers in Internet technology. And so Novell Networking, which was the first real global networking software system, originated in Orem, Utah, back in the, I don't know, 70s and 80s. So that was a huge deal at the time, before Microsoft kind of took over NETWORKING. And then WordPerfect was developed in Provo, Orem, which was software, you know, word processing software before Microsoft Word and Microsoft Office took over worldwide. So Utah has always been in the tech software game. But in recent decades, the church has tried to become like a new Silicon Valley. Sorry, Utah has tried to become a new Silicon Valley of sorts. And so they have this whole thing called Silicon Slopes where all the tech software people get together each year and meet and try and incubate and invest in and foster software. And so in that context, Josh James is one of the top three biggest names in all of Utah in silicon slopes for being one of those hundred millionaire, slash, possibly even billionaire software tech founders. He's also Mormon. And Domo is significant not only because it's one of those billionaire software companies coming out of Utah, but also I thought it was cool when, when Encircle and Dan Reynolds and Tyler Glenn and Imagine Dragons were advocating for LGBT people in Utah. A decade or so ago, Domo was putting out billboards that were pro LGBT as faithful Mormons and they were supporting the Believer documentary with HBO and Encircle and LGBT affirming stuff. Did you know that, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [01:36:57] I saw something about that just in my research. This, you know, this go round this week looking into him.

John Dehlin [01:37:03] Yeah. So in that sense, thumbs up to Domo and to Josh James. And also I want to say that Josh James is also known as one of those progressive, liberal, edgy, believing Mormons whose lifestyle there's just he has a reputation and I don't think I'm slandering him, I'm not even saying this is bad. He has a reputation of, let's just say Mormoning on his own terms of being a believing Mormon, but his private life shows that he might be a buffet Mormon and he doesn't always observe all the rules that orthodox Mormon is perceived to obey. And I see that as a good thing, not as a bad thing because I think people, I think religion should be the salt, not the meal. And I think people should pick and choose how they are religious.

Meggan Hayes [01:37:55] Yes, I wish I would have been able to do that as a member. Like I wish I would have granted myself that permission.

John Dehlin [01:38:01] Yeah, I think it's healthy. So having said that, that's the context for Josh James. And then the only other thing I'll say is that my friend Robert Reynolds, who is the brother of Imagine Dragons lead singer Dan Reynolds, who is also the manager for the Killers, the rock group the Killers. Brandon Flowers. Last year or so my friend Robert Reynolds came out with a YouTube documentary called An Inconvenient Truth or An Inconvenience. And it was a multi part series talking about difficult aspects of Mormonism from a believing standpoint. And basically my friend Robert was trying to promote liberal or progressive Mormonism, big tent Mormonism within faithful Mormonism. And so you can see our review with, with I think it was Jana, Jana Spangler, bo Euler and Dr. Julie Hanks. We did an entire multi hour review of that documentary and Josh James was featured in one of those episodes. And so that's we're going to be showing footage from that episode, is that right?

Meggan Hayes [01:39:19] Yes.

Josh James: The Sexual Assault Allegation

John Dehlin [01:39:19] Okay. Without any further ado. What? Tell us about the story so we have a timeline.

Meggan Hayes [01:39:25] Yeah, this is just. I. You put a lot of this out there. I would just want people to know who. Josh James.

John Dehlin [01:39:30] Yeah, go on who he is. Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:39:32] Okay, so 1973, was born in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:39:35] He served in LD 52. Right now. Ish.

Meggan Hayes [01:39:39] Oh, okay. Yeah, I can't do math in my head, so I'm going to trust you on that one. He served an LDS mission in Tokyo, Japan in the early 90s. He attended BYU but did not graduate. He co founded Omniture in 1996. In 2009, Adobe acquired Omniture for $1.8 billion. And in 2010, he founded Domo. He helped launch Silicone Slopes, which you spoke about.

John Dehlin [01:40:03] I could be wrong. I think Domo does web analytics, but I'm not sure. Do you know? Yeah, I'll look it up as you're going.

Meggan Hayes [01:40:12] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:13] He.

Meggan Hayes [01:40:13] In the 2010s, he joined the BYU Marriott's Entrepreneurship Advisory Board. In 2021, he was accused of sexual assault by a former employee. He denied the allegation and no criminal charges were filed. And then in 2022, he stepped down as the CEO of Domo. And then in 2023, he returned as the CEO of Domo. And then in 2025, like you mentioned, he appeared in An Inconvenient Faith, defending his LDS faith. And that picture there is a screenshot from the documentary.

John Dehlin [01:40:44] Okay. Yeah, so he's one of the biggest names and the wealthiest people in Utah. And he's, he's remained, as I understand it, an active, faithful member of the church. And. But. But again, on his own terms. I'm reading Domo is a cloud based data and business intelligence platform that consolidates an organization's raw data analytics and AI tools into a single user friendly space. So it is web analytics. And either I didn't know or I forgot that he had sexual assault allegations. So that's new to me, at least in my brain. As I'm thinking about it, I realized he had stepped down and come back as CEO. So anyway, thanks for that timeline and reporting. Meggan. Let's go to the next slide.

Josh James In An Inconvenient Faith

Speaker C [01:41:33] It's burdensome for sure. I think it's hard when you.

John Dehlin [01:41:37] Before we start it.

Meggan Hayes [01:41:40] Sorry, that. Yeah, this is the clips from. So he was in. I believe it was episode eight of An Inconvenient Faith and his clips were interspersed throughout. So I went and isolated all of them. And then put them down into one video clip so we can see the totality of his portion of the Inconvenient Faith and what he says on there.

John Dehlin [01:42:00] Okay. And I'll just say I was. I was. Robert worked with me from. I was in. I was featured in An Inconvenient Faith along with Jeremy Runnels and, you know, Patrick Mason and Richard Bushman and just all the characters that. That are ex Mormons or progressive Mormons. So many of them were included. It's really an important series. Even though I think there were a lot of things I would have enjoyed seeing differently. I think it was a courageous, important thing, and I think everyone should see it. I'm gonna ask Julia to include a link to it. It's in YouTube as well as I was working with Robert on this series. You know, there's one on the Book of Abraham. I think there's one on Book of Mormon historicity.

Speaker D [01:42:45] There's.

John Dehlin [01:42:45] There's one on polygamy, there's one on women. There's some lgb, a couple LGBT ones. Those are the types of episodes. I believe that this episode he had Josh James in. Robert has this theory that even though it's a harmful trope, that many people leave the church because they don't want to live the lifestyle, meaning they want to drink and smoke and have sex and whatever, party, even though that's a trope. And I'm guessing Robert might even agree that sometimes that's an unfair trope. I think Robert also feels like there. There are examples of where that's true. In other words, there are people who leave the church because they want to drink coffee or smoke or have sex or do drugs or whatever, even as believers. And so I think that was the. One of the themes Robert was trying to get at in this episode. And basically he's saying Mormons. Mormonism, with this episode is a demanding lifestyle, and that's a good thing. But there are people who don't want to live it or. Or choose not to.

Meggan Hayes [01:43:54] Did you know that Meggan did like that? That was the theme of the episode.

John Dehlin [01:43:59] Yeah. Or did you get that episode? Did you see the episode?

Meggan Hayes [01:44:02] I watched the whole thing. I'm trying to remember. Like, I mean. Yeah, no, I. What I was thinking about Josh James portion. He does talk about that, and he is one of the people who says that in there.

John Dehlin [01:44:15] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [01:44:16] But it's interesting because then we know he's not living it.

John Dehlin [01:44:21] So.

Meggan Hayes [01:44:23] Yeah, maybe it's coming across more to me because I know what happened after that. Yeah. That Josh James is saying this is a trope, but because what he says is you should just stay. And so maybe he's from Josh James perspective. It's like if you don't want to live all the things, you should just be a buffet Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:44:41] Yeah, well, I'll just say I agree. I created a website called Stale DS.com back in 2008 and I wrote a whole manual. If you can go see it right now, stale ds.com there's like an 80 page manual on how to stay in the church after a crisis of faith. And one of the things that I promoted back then is if it's a matter of leaving the church or staying in the church, because there are things you can't say or do, like typing or temple attendance or even word of wisdom, you have the option of being a buffet Mormon, staying and just picking and choosing the things you want to do. And I think that's a good thing. So I, I don't, I don't think that's necessarily bad. I think that's healthy. So I, you know, I, I, I'm for that. I don't think hypocrisy is good. I don't think that lying and hiding is good. But you know, I, I actually am for the, the thrust of that anyway.

Meggan Hayes [01:45:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:38] So with all that, I think that's what Robert was advocating for in this. You know, he's saying not two things. The high demand stuff is actually positive and oh, I was going to say the other thing is Jeff Strong has confirmed what we've known forever, which is something like a third of the faithful Mormons in Utah don't believe the church is true anymore, which means they're probably not doing all the things they're supposed to be doing. And my understanding has been that only a third of active Mormon adults in the US have temple recommends, which means that two thirds of the active Mormons in the United States either don't want temple recommends or aren't worthy of temple recommends, which means they're probably doing stuff they should quote by Mormon standards shouldn't be doing. So it's, I think it's healthy to have this conversation because it's happening everywhere, probably.

Meggan Hayes [01:46:34] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:35] More often than not in active Mormons

Meggan Hayes [01:46:38] in the US and like you.

John Dehlin [01:46:41] Oh, go ahead.

Meggan Hayes [01:46:41] Oh. Like you said, the issue comes when they feel like they have to hide it, when there's shame and secrecy. So yes, having this conversation is super important because if, if there's space allowed for buffet Mormons, it will help people to have space to Be healthier, to be more open, to have less shame.

John Dehlin [01:47:01] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I. And I. I'm told all the time now there's BYU students who drink coffee, and there's active Mormons and Relief Society presidency members and even bishopric members who drink coffee. And, you know, psychedelic use is unhinged in believing faithful Utah Mormonism and cannabis use and legal cannabis use now is unhinged prevalent in. In faithful Utah Mormonism. And. And, you know, there's all sorts of other things going on. So, like, faithful Utah Mormonism has all sorts of behaviors that in my Mormon world growing up would. Would have been completely unacceptable.

Meggan Hayes [01:47:47] Yeah. When I was at Utah Pride just a month ago, I ran into, at the festival, a woman who told me, I watch your show. I love it. I'm a Relief Society president, and I'm very nuanced. And to prove her point, she said this week we're having a cocktails and cookies as a Relief Society activity.

Ex-Mormons Talk About Beer in the Church

John Dehlin [01:48:07] I wonder if it was mocktails. Mocktails and cookies.

Meggan Hayes [01:48:10] No. She's like the double C. And I just looked at her like, are you serious? She goes, I have the best bishop.

John Dehlin [01:48:19] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:48:19] I was like, yeah. I don't even know what to say.

John Dehlin [01:48:25] Sometimes people are ex Mormons are salty that the church is becoming more open and lenient to things that were more forbidden when. When they were active and faithful. I'm not that way. I just want a healthy Mormonism. And so if the church is becoming less strict, like you say, and shaming and more healthy, I'm. I don't care what my experience was. I'm just glad for the people today.

Meggan Hayes [01:48:53] Yes. I. I go back and forth. I love that it's becoming more healthy for people, and it bothers me that they won't just acknowledge that that's what happening.

John Dehlin [01:49:05] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:49:05] Like, I want them to just acknowledge it. Yes, we are changing. Yes, we are becoming more healthy. Yes, we're allowing for Buffet Mormonism now. But instead it's like, I. I don't know what you're talking about. It wasn't that way. Or just not talk about it at all.

John Dehlin [01:49:18] Yeah. Yep. Really quickly, Trevenon. Sorry, not Trevanon. That wasn't the one comment that I like. Joffrey R. Holland says there's nothing wrong with some mild barley drinks for active Mormons. Yeah. The Word of Wisdom. Joseph Smith's word of wisdom, DNC89, allows for beer. It says mild drinks of barley, which meant beer and means beer is okay in the Word of Wisdom. It's not prohibited, and many Mormons today drink beer, who are faithful Mormons, because they know that now. And so beer drinking is on the rise in faithful Mormonism because it's not forbidden.

Meggan Hayes [01:50:04] Yeah. They actually studied the word of wisdom and didn't just say, no tea or coffee. There's a whole lot of things you could learn from that, but, yes, beer is one of them. Did you. I remember listening to a podcast episode where a Mormon couple was talking about how they had incorporated beer because of the word of wisdom. But this was years ago.

John Dehlin [01:50:21] Yeah. No, no.

Meggan Hayes [01:50:24] I can't remember if it was on Mormon Stories or different.

John Dehlin [01:50:26] I'm sure it was. Yeah, I'm sure it was. And it's just. I love it and it's fun, but we don't talk about it, so I love that we're talking about it.

Meggan Hayes [01:50:34] That was great.

Josh James On An Inconvenient Faith

John Dehlin [01:50:35] Okay, now let's get to the clip. Anything you want to say about the clip before we roll it?

Meggan Hayes [01:50:39] No, it's just. It's Josh James on An Inconvenient Faith.

John Dehlin [01:50:42] Okay, let's roll it.

Speaker C [01:50:44] It's burdensome, for sure. I think it's hard when you are required to do things that don't necessarily always make sense. Drinking tea, drinking coffee. There's not immediately bad things that happen when you drink too much tea or too much coffee any more than when you eat too much meat. There's a perception that everyone that's there is perfect and following all the rules. And I think the reality is 70, 80% of them have an issue. I mean, it was never hard to pay when I was little, never had to pay when I started. And then all of a sudden, you're writing a really big check. You're like, I guess I should just do a quick gut check. I should at least ask myself, I really believe this. Yeah, I do.

Meggan Hayes [01:51:22] Oh, my gosh.

Speaker C [01:51:23] I can't believe I just said that. Of course I believe write it, you know, but it, like, makes you. It made me, like, at least think about it. Whereas up until that point, I never even thought about it. It was never hard. You know, I think sometimes when you get money and you get wealth, then you don't need other people as much. You can hire the things that you need. You are told constantly that you're great and smart. I started this company called Omniture, took it public 2006, sold it to Adobe for almost $2 billion. Yeah, I mean, there's a million reasons you could not do this. Sometimes I find a lot of friends that'll make those mistakes and then read the ces letter and be like, oh yeah, I'm out because of the CES letter, but I know. And that's not the case. It's. They want to do A, B and C and not feel guilty about it. They don't want to go church and not feel guilty, guilty about it. Drinking and feeling guilty and then not wanting to go to church because of that, because you feel like you don't fit in or maybe you're just not sure. And a lot of times people aren't sure and they want to go experiment with something and they feel like they need to do full stop. It's funny, the things that are probably the most inconvenient for me are the ones that also build my faith most. I'm not an equipping Mormon. I know I'm a better dad than I would be otherwise. I know I'm a better person at work and much kinder and empathetic. I could turn into a monster real easily. I want the people disagree that don't like when people are judgmental, that have a hard time with drinking, that are screwing around with their boyfriend or girlfriend, they still come back and when someone says something to them that they don't agree with, they stand up like, no, that's not right. I want those people to stay in and fight. That's what we need. Because if we lose all those people, we're going to be a pretty vanilla milk toast place and it is, it is going to not do nearly as well as if we had the leaders and the passionate people fighting. I would love to have someone stand up the sacrament being like, I'm drinking right now and I'm not really sure what to do with it. I don't really want anyone's opinions. How refreshing would that be? Because you know, there's a bunch of people in there that are doing that. I know there are in my ward because I know some of them and I'm not doing it with them. But you know, I've had my moments and I've definitely know there's people that are doing it now.

Josh James: I Want More Real People Talking Out About Their Sins

John Dehlin [01:53:36] Okay, so again, the context is that Josh James was just arrested for a dui. Meggan, I'm dying to hear what some of the things you think are most interesting or important about that clip.

Meggan Hayes [01:53:50] Well, I really wished I could have asked the people who made the documentary why. I mean, I know Josh James is very wealthy, he's a very, you know, high profile Mormon, but what, what about Josh other Was there anything other than that that caused them to put him in the documentary? But The. And the other thing was just the. The contrast between what he is saying publicly. I mean, he. I don't know when he did that interview. Right. Because they were working on that documentary for quite a few years. But what he was thinking in that documentary when he's saying, I, what, three or four times, people are drinking, but it's not me. There's other people who are drinking, and I wish they would just say it.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] Did he say it's not him?

Meggan Hayes [01:54:37] Yeah, he says, I have friends are doing it, but I'm not doing it with them. But then he does say, but I've had my moments.

John Dehlin [01:54:43] So he wasn't drinking at the time he did the episode and then fell off the wagon after, Right?

Meggan Hayes [01:54:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:51] Or it's possible he was lying and hiding it.

Meggan Hayes [01:54:54] Right, Right. And maybe he wants to be the one that's standing up in sacrament meetings saying, I'm drinking, and not have people judging him. And it just is such an interesting display of. Of Mormonism where we don't know whether or not he was drinking. But he really wants to be more open, and he thinks other people do, too. But he still feels that pressure to just say, other people are drinking. It's not me. I wish everybody could stand up in sacrament meeting and just be honest.

John Dehlin [01:55:27] Yeah. I mean, what do you think about. Yeah. Like, is it good that he's saying these things? Is it bad that he's saying these things? You know what I'm saying?

Meggan Hayes [01:55:38] Like, yeah. So when I was kind of on my way out of the church, but I didn't really know it yet, I was in a ward in Alaska, and I was starting to be more open just about life in general. So when I would raise my hand in Relief Society and make a comment, I wouldn't just say, you know, I come from the best family and my kids are the best. And I would combine the good things and the hard things and everything. And there were members of the Relief Society who would then go complain to the Relief Society president. This is church. We should be focusing on doctrine. This isn't a therapy session. So then at church, I just felt like nobody even knows who I am. I have to put on this face, and I can't be realistic. I can't talk about what's actually happening in my life. So that's really not a place I want to be if I can't be honest. So I think Josh is bringing up a really good point where we need less people at church who are masking, who are trying to be perfect and put on this perfect show and more people who are willing to show up as they are. Because if the church really is a hospital for the sinner, as they say, then people need to be able to show up as they are. And I don't. There's a lot of places and words where that's not happening.

John Dehlin [01:56:54] Amen. So that's a really positive thing that Robert and Josh were saying is we need more vulnerability, more authenticity in Mormon words. Thumbs up, right? Thumbs up to Josh and Robert for that, right?

Meggan Hayes [01:57:11] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:57:13] Also, I thought it was amazing that he said he wants people staying in the church and fighting. He said fighting. Right. And we know that he was pro lgbt, so he means fighting for LGBT acceptance and love and support.

Speaker C [01:57:29] And.

John Dehlin [01:57:30] And then he's saying he wants, quote, sinners talking openly about their sins. He's fighting for more compassion for people who make mistakes. He and Robert. That's huge, right?

Meggan Hayes [01:57:44] Yeah. I love it. I love it. And with his resources and his high profileness, I. I love that he's saying that out loud and willing to be in the fight in ways that he's chosen to.

John Dehlin [01:57:57] And then he's saying that he wants sinners to come to church. And I even think he would agree apostates, people who doubted. And that's huge. Right. That he is wanting a big tent. Big tent Mormonism. That's. I started Mormon stories in 2005 with the primary goal of wanting big tent Mormonism. And I love it that Robert and Josh are advocating for that. Right?

Meggan Hayes [01:58:24] Yeah. Yeah. Because he said, people read the CS letter and then they think they have to call it quits. You don't have to do that, you know, And I think some people, mentally, for their health, they do need to step away. But he's saying, if you. If you can stay, stay. Let's fight together.

John Dehlin [01:58:40] Yeah. Which did show that he knows about the historical and the truth claims problems.

Meggan Hayes [01:58:47] Yeah. I mean, at least tangentially. When I first heard of the CES letter, I didn't read it. And then I heard there was a rebuttal, and I was like, oh, good, it's been solved. So we don't know how deep that goes.

John Dehlin [01:58:56] But wait, it hasn't been solved? I thought the CS letter was debunked.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:02] It was. So we're good now?

Josh James on His Comments About Mormonism

Speaker C [01:59:03] We're good.

John Dehlin [01:59:04] Okay, good.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:05] Just kidding. Read the CS letter, everybody. Csletter.org if you want to understand a more truthful account of Mormon church history and truth claims. What do you think about his argument that people don't want to do hard Things and that, you know, he's saying that with all his fame and wealth, he could turn into a monster. Do you feel like he was being disingenuous or hypocritical? Do you feel like he was perpetuating stereotypes? Or do you feel like he was just being candid and vulnerable and maybe being honest? What'd you think about that?

Meggan Hayes [01:59:39] Well, I have heard reports of people from his workplace who say that he's not always the kindest person, he's not always the nicest person. So I think there is likely a part of Mormonism that helps him remember to be more. Even to be more kind. And if that's what Mormonism is doing for him, then awesome.

John Dehlin [02:00:00] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:00:01] Yeah, I think that's great.

John Dehlin [02:00:03] And I'll just say, and this is from people I trust over the years, you know, you saw in that video that it goes through a ton. They showed his mansion and then they go through a tunnel and then they go to this like, party room with like basketball courts and, and, you know, a theater room and whatever. I have talked to people who attended parties at Josh James's house and the impression they gave me was that there were like scantily clad hosts or hostesses serving alcohol, partying in that kind of party dungeon in the tunnel that he has in his house. And that's before this video ever came out. So that just confirmed. The video sort of confirms. Because how would I ever know Josh James had a tunnel?

Meggan Hayes [02:00:57] Right.

John Dehlin [02:00:58] So, like, that confirms these people's stories to me that over years he has hosted parties with drinking and scantily clad hosts or hostesses at a minimum. Now, again, this is through trusted sources. I wasn't there. But like, his reputation has been for hosting crazy non orthodox faithful Mormon parties. And that's been his. But, you know, I don't know that he's trying to say he's a hypocrite. Maybe he's trying to say by this video, I'm a sinner and we're all sinners and at church should be for the sinners and we should all go and speak up and be vulnerable. That's my interpretation.

Meggan Hayes [02:01:42] But yeah, as long as he's not trying to say I'm a sinner and I'm going to keep doing these things and just keep forgiving me even if I get a dui. Because that's crossing a line. Right. I mean, having drinks at your house and a party is one thing versus what we're going to see next.

John Dehlin [02:02:01] Yeah. Okay. Before we show the dui, I want to say one last thing. I, you know, let's say a couple times I've been in the position of, of counseling a general authority or a prophet or apostle. 1. Twice with elder Holland, once with. A couple times with Elder Oaks, long time ago, and once with Marlon Jensen. And I, if, if they were to say to me, john, what would help make the church stronger? And I were trying to give them advice in good conscience, not giving advice that I think would weaken the church. If I were trying to not weaken the church, I would not advise them to have people be more vulnerable publicly at church because I think the more people admit their sins, admit their cannibal issues, admit their sexual misconduct or, or sins, admit their alcohol or drug use, admit their sins and weaknesses, it normalizes that these behaviors and probably will lead to more of that type of behavior. But also I've. I've long believed that if everybody misbelieves that all the other members are faithful and believing, if they misperceive that it makes them want to try and do better to follow all the rules. But if they believe that everybody's breaking the rules and they're all vulnerable about it, then they're going to maybe be more inclined to do that too. It's just basic peer pressure stuff. And I just think when people especially are losing their faith and they start talking openly about it and talking openly about, it's a CES letter and it's the Book of Abraham and it's polyandry and Fanny Alger, and I think that is disastrous to the church. It's like this vulnerability and truth virus that basically takes what Mormon stories and Alyssa Grenfell and Generally Unquotable and Nemo, the Mormon and RFM and all, it basically takes all that stuff and explodes it into the faithful Mormon church consciousness in unhealthy ways. So even though I think Josh James means well and that it might be healthier for some to have more vulnerability and openness and honesty in the church, I don't think it would be good for the church. I think it would actually be potentially disastrous for the church. What's your take?

Josh James: More Vulnerability in the Church

Meggan Hayes [02:04:48] Yeah, that's true. When I was being more vulnerable, I didn't know any of the history stuff in that sense. Not what I was. I was just saying, you know, sometimes I. Well, that wouldn't even. I wasn't saying that. So I. Because I did read my scriptures every day. But it was, you know, something that was always really hard for me was kneeling down and praying because I just felt like I was talking to myself and saying that out loud or saying that I thought the temple was a little strange. I did say that. That out loud. Eventually it was those types of things. But I can see how, yeah, if. If everyone at church is honest, then people would be more relaxed in their devotion because they'd be like, oh, I'm here with a bunch of people like me, so maybe I don't have to read my scriptures every day, and I can still be a good person. And. But I see that as a good thing. But, yeah, the church might not be as strong.

John Dehlin [02:05:40] That's. That's the final thing I wanted to say, is that we have to kind of distinguish between what's healthy and what's good for the church. Church. And I think one of the main pickles that Mormon church leaders are in is sometimes they have to sacrifice the health of some of the members for the health of the church overall. And I think child abuse is the prime example. Right. But LGBT people is another example, and transparency in history is another example. Time and time again, I think church leaders are going to choose the strength of the institution over the health of the individual members, or they're going to do a utilitarian approach and say, yes, this might hurt some Mormons, faithful Mormons or members, but it'll hurt more if we do the other thing. So we're willing to hurt the smaller amount of Mormons to try and keep and protect the larger amount for the greater good of the church and the membership overall. It's a utilitarian approach. Right?

Mormon church leaders: Choosing the Good for the Church

Meggan Hayes [02:06:55] Yeah. Well, and they're in a hard spot. They're in a hard spot because they. They're dealing with millions of people who all have differing views and listen to them differently and sustain them differently. And some who want LGBTQ people to be offered sealing in the temple, and some who will think the church is an apostasy if that happens. So, yeah, it's hard.

John Dehlin [02:07:19] It's very hard. Okay, let's go to. This is the video of Josh James's arrest.

Josh James's Body Cam Footage

Meggan Hayes [02:07:26] Yeah. So he was arrested back in August, but this body cam footage was just released recently. Much more recently than August.

John Dehlin [02:07:33] Okay. All right, let's wait. So wait, say that again. When was he arrested?

Meggan Hayes [02:07:38] It was in August of 2025. But the body cam footage was just released.

John Dehlin [02:07:42] Yeah, well, basically a year ago, he was arrested. I never heard about it. Did you?

Meggan Hayes [02:07:48] Yeah, I did at the time, but I didn't realize. I didn't know much about Josh James.

John Dehlin [02:07:51] Okay. Okay. So a year ago he was arrested, and this is now the Body camera footage. Body. Body cam footage being released. What's going on, man? Are you good? What. What happened tonight?

Speaker C [02:08:08] Not sure.

John Dehlin [02:08:09] Not sure.

Speaker C [02:08:10] Where you come from, it's probably best I don't say anything, right?

John Dehlin [02:08:14] I have no idea. I don't really know what's going on. Anything to drink tonight?

Speaker C [02:08:19] Well, it looks like such.

John Dehlin [02:08:24] Do you know how much you had

Speaker D [02:08:25] to drink

John Dehlin [02:08:28] that mailbox? Yeah. I'm glad nobody got hurt. Super nice car. I think it looks that thing's heavy duty.

Speaker C [02:08:35] Man, your mailbox things a beast. Yeah, yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:08:39] That.

Speaker C [02:08:39] That car is.

Meggan Hayes [02:08:40] That car.

Speaker C [02:08:42] Just to verify everything. It's Joshua James.

Speaker D [02:08:45] Okay.

Speaker C [02:08:46] And that car that you were driving, Just to confirm everything. That's the BMW ix.

John Dehlin [02:08:52] Okay. Perfect.

Speaker C [02:08:53] All right. Like I said,

Meggan Hayes [02:08:56] I get you.

Speaker C [02:08:58] I get you. I see it. I get you. I hear you, too. I understand. I understand. So, like I said, you guys, I see it. We still have to do what we have to do. I sponsored, like, nine teams in my life. I know. I got you. Like I say, we still have to

Meggan Hayes [02:09:15] do what we have to do. I know that.

Speaker C [02:09:17] Second place in the softball in the US in the west conference. I up. Clearly.

John Dehlin [02:09:26] I clearly up. You guys saw the.

Speaker C [02:09:32] The.

Meggan Hayes [02:09:32] The building on the mountain.

Speaker C [02:09:35] Which one? Ado.

Meggan Hayes [02:09:36] Adobe building.

Speaker C [02:09:38] That's my. That's nice.

John Dehlin [02:09:41] That's a good setup.

Speaker D [02:09:42] I'm not.

Speaker C [02:09:42] I'm not trying to, like, flex. Just saying, like, I've tried to be good over the last 30 years.

John Dehlin [02:09:48] You guys, a lot.

Speaker D [02:09:50] And.

Speaker C [02:09:50] Yeah. Sponsors and softball teams.

He Said I Should've Let Him Off the Hook

Meggan Hayes [02:09:54] Thank you.

Speaker C [02:09:56] Done a lot of favors for you guys. You'd be charged with DUI and leaving the roadway. Right. Leaving the roadway. So you left the lane of travel, went off to the sidewalk and hit that mailbox.

John Dehlin [02:10:10] Whoa. That's my first time of seeing that. Holy crap. Meggan, I want to give you the first chance to respond. What. What was notable to you about that

Meggan Hayes [02:10:23] shocking clip that he's saying both I effed up and at the same time saying, but I sponsored your guys softball teams. And he doesn't say, so you should just let me off the hook. But he is pushing really hard for this. I'm famous. I'm rich. That big building on the hill, that's mine. And I've helped you guys a lot over the years without explicitly saying, at least in that footage, you need to do me a solid and just let me off on this one.

John Dehlin [02:10:57] Yeah, Yeah. I mean, that was just brazen attempt at using power and money and influence to circumvent the law. He didn't say, I'm a faithful Mormon. At least he didn't say, I have a temple recommend or I'm a bishop or something, but.

Meggan Hayes [02:11:13] Right. He didn't pull out his temple recommend and accidentally drop it on the table.

John Dehlin [02:11:18] Yeah. That was shocking attempt to influence law enforcement.

Meggan Hayes [02:11:27] Yes. And I don't know at that point how long he'd been in there and what his blood alcohol content was. At that point. It's. But it's bad. I mean, he went off the road. Thankfully, it was a mailbox and not a person.

John Dehlin [02:11:40] So he smashed into a big brick mailbox, basically. And that's why he got caught.

Meggan Hayes [02:11:44] Yeah. And plowed it over.

John Dehlin [02:11:46] I mean, like, with the Lego, with the. With the bricks and minifigs. Lego scandal with reckless Ben recently and the American Fork Police Department, we kind of came down hard on the American force Police Department, American Fork Police Department, and on perceptions around Utah law enforcement that sometimes the Mormon Church or Mormonism and Mormon relationships have an undue influence. Should we, in all fairness, note that it's pretty awesome that apparently, as far as we know from this video, that law enforcement officials in, I assume, Utah county weren't manipulated or influenced by his Mormonism, his fame, or his display of wealth. Is that something that we should give credit to the police? I mean, you could say it's just doing their job, but what do you think, Meggan?

Josh James on His Arrest & American Fork Police Department

Meggan Hayes [02:12:45] Well, and that is what he said. He said, I just, we got to do what we got to do. But I think for him to push up against someone with that much power is.

Speaker D [02:12:53] He's.

Meggan Hayes [02:12:54] I mean, he's also a police officer, so he has his own power, but to just not engage in that way and just say, we still. We still have to charge you. We still have to go through this. Yeah, I think. I think that was great.

John Dehlin [02:13:11] So kudos. Do you know. Do you know what police department that was?

Meggan Hayes [02:13:14] I don't.

John Dehlin [02:13:15] Okay, maybe we can have viewers and listeners look that up. Maybe Julie can look that up and put it in the comments, because I think that'd be interesting. I'm also curious. Was he convicted? Was he sentenced? Did he do time? I don't want either of us to have to be Googling while we're trying to run the show, but if any of our viewers and listeners please subscribe and like this episode. But also. But also, anyone who wants to Google and inform us in the chat what they found out about. Was he tried? Was he convicted? Was he sentenced? What was the fine? We'd love to sell that. And what. And what. What city police force was it?

Meggan Hayes [02:13:56] I think he Has a court date coming up this month, if I'm remembering correctly.

John Dehlin [02:14:00] Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay, cool. Well, you know, I mean, on the one hand, empathy and sympathy to Josh James for this sickness, this illness that he has. Drunk driving can kill people. So it's no joke. Thank you to the police department for apparently prosecuting him. And I, you know, let's just say we hope justice is served. Most importantly, we hope Josh gets well and this never happens again.

Meggan Hayes [02:14:36] Yes.

Speaker D [02:14:37] Right.

Meggan Hayes [02:14:37] Yeah. And he has the resources to get the help that he needs. And there might have been something about him checking into rehab, have after that.

John Dehlin [02:14:43] Yeah, yeah. And heart goes out to people with addictions because it's. It's an illness. And no judgment, honestly, no judgment. Just let's all try and get better. Anything else about the Mormon angle that's worth noting? Going back to an inconvenient faith and word of wisdom. And like, I. Can. I. Can I give a hot take? Meggan? I think the alcohol prohibition with the word of wisdom, generally speaking, was actually one of the things that Joseph Smith got right. Generally. I'm not condemning people who drink. I'm not saying drinking is bad for everyone, but I. I tend to believe that alcohol has done more harm than good for society. And I think. I think it's probably true that the world would be way better off without alcohol use. Now, that's not to be judgy. That's my experience with people and people close to me. Do you can disagree or what. Do you have any other things you want to say about Mormonism and alcohol and. Or the word of wisdom or an inconvenient faith?

John and Meggan on Alcohol and Mormonism

Meggan Hayes [02:15:52] Yeah, I think alcohol in and of itself is not bad. I think, especially coming out of Mormonism, we tend to be uneducated about alcohol and what it can and cannot do. Just because it's legal doesn't mean you should just jump right in. And a lot of people go in not knowing what they're getting into. So I think it's a substance that everyone should be very cautious with. And, you know, you can look at your family history. I have alcoholics in my family history, and that's something that I made sure that I found out and knew so that I could be educated about what I could be getting into if I decide to drink. And I have had alcohol, but I don't. I don't really care for it. So I'm more of a coffee drinker. But yeah, I just. I think there's a huge lack of education because alcohol has been legal for so long about the harm that it can have.

John Dehlin [02:16:50] Yeah. And can I just also say that I have lots of people close to me who drink and I socialize with people all the time who drinks and I don't give a rat's rear if people drink in front of me. I, I don't even want it to be brought up. I don't care. I'm happy when people are happy. And it's not a thing where I'm like judging them or, or noticing it. I don't care anymore. It's normal human stuff. And we know about prohibition in 1920 and how it was a disaster. So it's just complicated. I think alcohol is just always going to be with us. So it's not, I don't say it judgmental and, and I support consenting adults just doing what's legal and using their best judgment. And I think you're right. Education is really important. Brady Reading writes, I drink a fair bit. And I agree, John, alcohol doesn't do a lot of good. For me personally, as much fun as it can be, a strictly enforced prohibition is too far. But advising people to take it easy is good. And that's just what I'm saying is I try and say when you leave, when you lose your orthodox faith and, or leave a high demand religion or anything, one practice that I love to advocate for is quote, keeping the good meaning. Don't just do the opposite of whatever you did as an orthodox believing Mormon. There are some things about being an orthodox believing Mormon that's good, that are good and continue to be good and don't feel like there's anything wrong with keeping those things as you change the other things that maybe didn't work for you.

Meggan Hayes [02:18:32] Yeah. Because I, you know, I felt that when I was first out, just the need to just be contrary.

John Dehlin [02:18:37] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:18:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:38] It's natural. But Margi and I be a witness that it doesn't have to be that way. And you, Meggan, in some ways too, so. But coffee, I take it all. Coffee drink. Everyone should drink as much coffee as you possibly can. Coffee is true.

Meggan Hayes [02:18:55] I can only have one cup a day or I get way too jittery.

John Dehlin [02:18:59] Well, I'm always, I'm always intense. And I don't know if I can blame it on the coffee, honestly, but I think medicine says that coffee is good for your health.

Meggan Hayes [02:19:08] Yes. Yeah. I have really low blood pressure and if I drink one cup of coffee a day, I can stand up without, you know, feeling dizzy. And I love it.

Mormon Parents Go to the Temple After Murdering Their Child

John Dehlin [02:19:17] All right, well, let's go the next story.

Meggan Hayes [02:19:20] Okay, so this is a little bit of a timeline here. This is about Ruby Marie Murray. She's the little girl pictured there. She died on March 19th at the age of 18 months old. This was not in 2026. In 20. Wait, 2020. Now, I can't remember the year. I think it was this year. She weighed approximately 17 pounds at the time of her death at 18 months old. So that's really quite tiny. And then after she died, her dad put on social media. The absolute outpouring of love that Carrie Lucas and I have received this week has been incredible. To all those that have given time, money, or even words, know that every part of it has been felt and appreciated. I'm going to miss my little princess, but I know that she is in her heavenly father's arms. And then Mitchell and Carrie went to the temple on April 30, which would have been just a month later. And they put, no matter what is going on in life, peace can always be found in the temple.

John Dehlin [02:20:18] You are not about to tell me that this. These Mormon parents who are temple worthy murdered their child and then went to the temple and posted on social media about how much peace they found in the Mormon temple after murdering their child? Is that what you're about to tell me? Because I'm not read about this story.

Meggan Hayes [02:20:40] Yes, they murdered her by neglecting her holy.

John Dehlin [02:20:45] Alleged. Is it allegedly or.

Meggan Hayes [02:20:47] They pled guilty. So at that point, do you still say alleged or.

John Dehlin [02:20:51] Oh, my. I'm. This is dark. Okay, let's keep.

Meggan Hayes [02:20:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:20:55] Dang it.

Meggan Hayes [02:20:56] It's very dark.

John Dehlin [02:20:57] So.

Meggan Hayes [02:20:57] Yeah. So this is the most recent news that just came out. Utah couple pleads guilty to child abuse homicide. So prosecutors said Ruby spent just 49 minutes and 15 seconds with another person. Person during her final four days. On the day before she died, her total interaction with her mother, father and brother was just 49 seconds. Her diaper was never changed and video captured her crying, whimpering and gasping through the night. Investigators said she was left in a mesh covered crib surrounded by old food with a space heater keeping the room unusually warm and loud music playing to drown out her cries. Carrie Murray, a nurse, told detectives she had muted the baby monitor months earlier, fed Ruby almost excited exclusively waffles in her crib, and felt no guilt. Believing the death was sids. Mitchell Murray admitted he often spent his days playing video games while leaving Ruby in her crib for entire crib days.

Utah Couple Pleads Guilty to Child Abuse Homicide

John Dehlin [02:21:48] Oh, what do you. What sense do you make of that?

Meggan Hayes [02:21:52] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:21:54] Was this baby overweight or.

Meggan Hayes [02:21:57] No. No. The Baby was severely malnourished.

John Dehlin [02:22:00] There was another story, I think, where some parents were punished for having excessively overweight child. But what I read, what confused me, I knew that it was malnourished. But what confused me is like, they're feeding their kid, what, waffles.

Meggan Hayes [02:22:14] They would just throw a waffle in the crib and they put mesh over the top so she couldn't get out.

John Dehlin [02:22:19] I mean, this is just, I'm not going to say regions of the United States where I would expect a story like this because that's hurtful and insulting to people in those regions. But it's just not in my brain space that parents would be behaving like this in Utah. But I know that's dumb, but that's just shocking. This is shocking to me.

Meggan Hayes [02:22:43] Yeah, so they were. These, the booking photos were from the Cash County Jail.

John Dehlin [02:22:48] So this is in Cash Valley.

Meggan Hayes [02:22:51] Yeah, Cash County.

John Dehlin [02:22:52] Dang.

Meggan Hayes [02:22:53] Yeah. Just horrific. I, I saw the story when it first came out, and then this. They just pled guilty to the charges.

John Dehlin [02:22:59] Okay, and. And it may be tedious for me to ask you this, but I'm gonna ask it every time. To what extent is the story a Mormon story? In other words, humanity will always have monsters. And I don't know how else to describe this than them as monsters. Like, because that's to a child, to a baby. I mean, you could say they're mentally ill, but like, that's monstrous behavior. What I always want to ask you is, is this just humans being monsters or is there a meaningful Mormon element to this other than they were posing as faithful, temple attending, temple worthy Mormons?

Meggan Hayes [02:23:41] And that for me was the, the obvious contradiction there is that she dies one month later. I mean, this is right after she's passed away. They're telling everyone that she died of sids. The police are already investigating because it looked suspicious. And they're showing up in ways that Mormons show up on social media. Thank you for the condolences. Here we are at the temple, finding peace that our daughter passed away. It's. It's such a horrific, horrific situation. But it still shows that Mormon, like shiny veneer that sometimes happens where these awful things are happening over here. But we're gonna pose for a picture and say that we went to the temple. I don't know how that disconnect happens because for some people, the unsavory things that are happening are not nearly as horrific as this. Right. It's just that they're having a really hard day and they don't Dare say it. They're just going to say, I went to the temple and everything was solved. This is a very extreme, extreme case of that.

John Dehlin [02:24:48] And like, I, you know, I have to think of like child abuse as a disease because while I can, I can relate to certain law breaking activities or sins or whatever because I've had thoughts or urges or I've, you know, sinned or broken the law before, like speeding or I stole as a kid or you know, you know, sinning. Like, yeah, I was attracted to my girlfriend and wanted to do things I shouldn't. Like there are certain sins or law breaking activities I can relate to. People having child abuse is one that I've never had, an attraction for a child. And so that's what makes me just put that in potentially a category of just mental illness and brain malformation because I don't know how else to make sense of it because I've never experienced attraction for a kid or a teenage girl as an adult. Like, but no, can, can you make any sense of two parents having a baby and feeling okay, neglecting their baby this way? Like, can you make any sense of that? Were they just psychopaths from the beginning and shouldn't have had kids? How else do we.

Meggan Hayes [02:26:03] They have an older child, a son who was older and not. They were not charged for doing anything to him and he went into care of someone else after this happened. So I don't know why they had one child and seemingly took care of him and then this. As a mother with six children, I cannot fathom leaving a child even in the same diaper for a whole day.

John Dehlin [02:26:34] Okay. Now I'm thinking of one possibility. If they were addicted to like meth or heroin or opiates or alcohol or whatever. If they were drug or alcohol addicts, I could see that leading to severe child neglect.

Meggan Hayes [02:26:54] Yeah. None of the reports said anything about substances. It doesn't mean it wasn't happening. But the news that I read, none of it pointed towards that.

John Dehlin [02:27:01] Yeah. Okay. Well, what a horrific story. And I'm just shocked. And then it happened in Cash Valley. I was in Cache Valley yesterday. Like, it just, oh, my gosh, this world sometimes. Meggan.

Why Mormon God Allows Child Abusers to Attend Temple Weddings

Meggan Hayes [02:27:16] I know.

John Dehlin [02:27:17] Yeah. How are you doing with all the news you covered? Is it. How do you keep healthy covering these types of stories?

Meggan Hayes [02:27:25] I look at even stories like this just from a very human perspective where they did really, really terrible, terrible things. And I just try and focus on, okay, I hope that little boy is getting the help that he needs and the, the human side of it that can be the side where rescue happens so I can think about these people. I'm sad that she had to die before they got caught. I'm glad they're being held accountable in one way or another. And I really hope that there are supports in place for their other child and for. I'm sure there are some grieving family members and neighbors and ward members who are also feeling betrayed because, oh, we thought we knew them. We thought they were nice. Their little girl came to church or whatever it is. Like that's the part of humanity that can really rise up and offer a web of support.

John Dehlin [02:28:24] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:28:25] For those left in the wake of something like this.

John Dehlin [02:28:28] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just. Yeah. Thanks for covering this stuff. And it's hard and, but it's, but it's important. And I, I just had a shocking question. Do we know if they issued like a GoFundMe to raise money from the.

Meggan Hayes [02:28:52] I never see one. But that. Yeah, that middle post did make it sound like people had donated money after she passed.

John Dehlin [02:28:59] I mean that's just outrageous. Beyond outrageous. If they fundraised for the murder of their own baby.

Meggan Hayes [02:29:08] Yeah. Yeah. So something was not right in their thinking for sure.

John Dehlin [02:29:15] Yeah. And they're temple recommend worthy.

Meggan Hayes [02:29:17] Like, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:19] Virtual signaling by their temple attendants. Yeah. They say, they say no one, I'll say this again, like they say no unclean thing can enter a temple. What is that?

Meggan Hayes [02:29:30] Lockers and temples. They have lockers in temples. People have to lock their stuff up for a reason.

John Dehlin [02:29:36] But I mean it just. Does this make a mockery and a farce of the temple recommend process that people and be evil and they just lie and double recommend.

Speaker D [02:29:46] Like.

Meggan Hayes [02:29:46] Yeah. It's why we need to stop saying that there's discernment because it puts people in a position to trust people that they shouldn't trust.

John Dehlin [02:29:55] Yeah. And I think it's just ironic that like non member parents of a groom or a bride who are getting married in the temple can't go in to a temple to see their son or daughter get married. If they're either non members or not temple recommended holding members. They can't witness their own child's temple marriage. But God allows child abusers and murderers of babies to still attend temple going to temples because he, through his inspired leaders, grants them temple recommends. Like what's God doing there? Mormon God.

Meggan Hayes [02:30:37] Right. Because she was 18 months old. This had been going on.

John Dehlin [02:30:41] Yeah. If God speaks to leaders, why isn't Mormon God allowing parents of non member or non temporary recommend holding parents? Why is it Mormon God allowing them to attend the Mormon weddings of their children. But Mormon God is allowing child abusers and child murderers to get temple recommends to enter his holy place. Why is. What is. Why is Mormon God sleeping at the wheel?

Meggan Hayes [02:31:18] I don't know. I. I have a friend who was abused, sexually abused by the person who was babysitting her while. So her parents could attend the temple.

John Dehlin [02:31:29] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:31:30] And. And as a child, she would beg like, please just let someone find out. And God didn't tell anyone for her.

John Dehlin [02:31:38] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:31:39] And her parents were at the temple. They were doing what they were supposed to be doing and they didn't know was happening. And it just, it the way that Mormon God is presented. It does. He's not actually doing those things they say that he's doing. And it sets people up to be in dangerous situations.

Mormon God and His Angel With Flaming Sword

Speaker D [02:34:08] He.

Meggan Hayes [02:34:09] He has a gross misuse of the angel with the sword. Because you'll hear people who. I was reading this story the other day where the guy is like, I. I found a Book of Mormon in a Marriott hotel. And then, wouldn't you know it, 24 hours later, I ran into missionaries. And God orchestrated this. Which I don't want to say that he didn't, because that is that person's perception. In reality, if God can set those things in motion, why couldn't he send someone, a bishop or a ministering sister to this couple's house and have them see what was going on so that they could report it? Why. Why didn't that angel with the sword go to the bishop and say, I'm going to take away your temple, recommend granting privileges if you don't go visit this couple tonight so you can see what's going on in their house. And it just. It makes God seem

John Dehlin [02:35:08] like, say, Mormon God, right?

Meggan Hayes [02:35:11] Yeah. It makes Mormon God seem like he wants to promote polygamy but doesn't really care about the children. That. That it would produce, that marriage produces, that couples produce. He wants everyone to have sex, but if they have babies, then that's on you. After that.

John Dehlin [02:35:28] It's messed up. It's really messed up. Exmo Ramo. Thanks for the super chat. He's asking, did the church excommunicate these parents after they were convicted? I don't know. It's a great question.

Meggan Hayes [02:35:46] Yeah, they don't publish that in the paper anymore like they used to.

John Dehlin [02:35:49] Excommunications? Yeah, like Desert News back in the day. They published my excommunication in the Desert News. Well, that's true, but that wasn't for child abuse or murder. That was for supporting same sex marriage and women's rights in the church and for speaking honestly and openly about church history and child abuse and problems in the church. That's what got me excommunicated.

Meggan Hayes [02:36:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:18] Yeah, I imagine this couple will be excommunicated, but maybe only because it was made public.

Meggan Hayes [02:36:24] Yeah, I would think if they weren't, people would maybe say something about it, but, I mean, they just wouldn't even know.

John Dehlin [02:36:30] Yeah. Julia is contending that Lori Valo still hasn't been excommunicated. I. I want to say allegedly, if there's. If that's factually true. If someone can show me Lori Valo's membership record, that she's still a member in good standing, I will freaking picket church headquarters. So,

Meggan Hayes [02:36:50] yeah, I'd fly out for that.

John Dehlin [02:36:52] And again, she said. Julie's saying Lori was wearing her orange jumpsuit saying they hadn't excommunicated her yet. I would say if she's a murderer, she could have been a liar. And I'm not saying Julie is wrong. I'm just saying I don't think we can trust Lori Valo.

Meggan Hayes [02:37:07] No, no. We would need some official paperwork on that one.

John Dehlin [02:37:11] But Julie is saying maybe they've. They've done it by now, but who knows? I just think church is selective excommunication where, like, Sam Young is excommunicated. Bishop Sam Young is excommunicated purely for advocating for, for better protection of children, or Kate Kelly for advocating for women's rights, or Jeremy Reynolds for advocating for truth and Mormon history, or Natasha Helfer for. For advocating for better mental health practices, or me or Grant Palmer or whatever. And then thousands of child abusers were never excommunicated. You know, like, it. It just strains all understanding, you know?

Meggan Hayes [02:37:55] Yeah, it. Sometimes when I think about it that way, I just wonder how the church hasn't buckled under the weight. And I know why they haven't, but with everything, it's like we just, we keep talking about it, we keep talking about it, and it just still keeps happening.

John Dehlin [02:38:08] Yeah. Yeah. All right, what's the next story, Meggan?

Mitt Romney on Church Leaders' Time to Step Down

Meggan Hayes [02:38:14] Okay, Mitt Romney was interviewed on Deseret voices and with McKay Coppins is a great interview. It wasn't super long. And personally, I think Mitt Romney is fantastic. I, I have watched him for years since he. But even before he was a presidential nominee. And I've always just really thought Mitt Romney was a good person.

John Dehlin [02:38:38] I actually really respect Mitt Romney in many ways as a politician, even though I have criticisms. But overall, man of integrity, I think, I think our country would be. I personally think our country would be better off today if he had been elected president. And. Yeah. And I think McKay Coppins, he writes for the Atlantic Monthly as a reportedly faithful Mormon, and I think he does great reporting generally speaking. And so, yeah, I'm dying to hear what happened. So should we roll the clip or do you want to give a.

Meggan Hayes [02:39:12] No, no, go ahead and. Yeah, go ahead and roll. So they, they were asking him about. Because it's July and religious freedom. And that was kind of the, the overall theme of the interview was just talking to him about U.S. history and religious freedom and with his perspective, being in politics for so long.

John Dehlin [02:39:33] All right, let's go ahead and roll the clip.

Speaker D [02:39:39] I do whatever my church asks of me. I made a commitment many, many years ago to consecrate time to the building up of My faith. And I do that when I'm asked. I'm not asked very often like I once was, but that's fine. And you know, McKay, I think, you know, at some point, you recognize it's time for the old folks to lay down in green pastures and the, the pasture is still green.

John Dehlin [02:40:03] Whoa. I don't know if he knows what he was saying there. But before I, before I say it, Meggan, what do you want to say about that?

Meggan Hayes [02:40:14] Well, that's why his words are so funny, because he's talking about the government, the US Government specifically, and how his time is, is gone because he's gotten older and he thinks that as you get a little older, it's time to kind of turn things over to the younger generation. And he, in his mind somehow. Well, first of all, he's saying, I do whatever my church tells me. Which is interesting because in a, in a political setting, you would hope the person that you voted in would, would feel some responsibility to their constituents. But there might be a time where he would put his. I mean, I would think his church and what the brethren are asking him to do over his constituents, I don't know. And then. Yeah, for him to say that people, when they get older, should bow out, it's really interesting considering those same people who he says he's taking orders from are quite a bit older than, you know, a lot of people in politics.

John Dehlin [02:41:22] So do you think he was making a backhanded reference that the church leaders are too old and need to step down, or do you think that's.

Meggan Hayes [02:41:31] I don't know because. Because he led with. I do what my church leaders tell me. So it's this strange compartmentalization.

John Dehlin [02:41:41] Right. And he means. But doesn't. Would never presume to mean that for church leaders.

Meggan Hayes [02:41:47] Right. Because maybe church leaders have, you know, the priesthood and discernment and so they don't, they don't have to be held to the same standard.

John Dehlin [02:41:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So a couple things I'll say. Number one is there's always this question of, like, do top church leaders believe? Or another version of that is how can I see this all the time in the comments from Never Mormons? How can any intelligent person ever believe? I used to work at Bain, which is a company that Mitt Romney founded, and Bain, when I worked there, was ranked as one of the top five countries in the world to work for. And I can tell you all the Bain associates and managing consultants and partners are Harvard, Stanford, Yale, mit, Wharton, Northwestern graduates. And they're just brilliant. Like Highest IQ savvy people in business, in the world. And that's saying something. Right? And I, I'm not saying I was, that they hired me, but I, I didn't last long. And honestly, I think part of it was I probably wasn't smart enough. And so I'm not saying that about myself, but I am saying that about Bain people and McKinsey people and you know, and Mitt Romney is a genius. He is brilliant intellectually. His IQ is off the charts. And so number one, he's a good example. I know people close to Mitt Romney and very close to Mitt Romney, and he is a total, true believing orthodox member. And so that's one thing. Now, has he spent time deeply investigating the church's history and his truth claims? I would say no. So I think part of that compartmentalization has been him just not choosing to go there or wanting to go there. Right?

Meggan Hayes [02:43:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:56] But he is an absolute true believer, as I believe the top church leaders are. So given that and given the way I know the world works, of course Mitt Romney probably has and would ever do the church's bidding, even using his influence as a senator and maybe even President of the United States. I think whatever the church asked him to do, he'd likely be very inclined to do it, if not for sure do it because he covenanted, as he said there, he covenanted to do it. And I remember a Oregon senator, I believe it was Packwood, but I'm not sure. During the Mormon leaks fiasco where a bunch of private videos were leaked, there was another current or former Mormon senator from Oregon. And I think it was, I forget who it was, but whoever it was, he basically was there to report on what's going on in the US Senate and in politics to the church apostles and was basically admitting that he's going to do whatever they want within. So this is just another example of. But, but isn't that just the way the word is this Mormon? Like, wouldn't. Catholic, like, doesn't JD Vance probably do the Catholic Church's bidding? You know, doesn't, don't, don't. Didn't Joe Lieberman, Jewish, you know, advocate for Zionism or, or Judaism? Like, is this a Mormon thing that a senator, Mormon senator would do the Mormon Church's bidding, Meggan, or is that just the way the world works?

Meggan Hayes [02:45:29] No, I think it's how the world works. I think when he, when people vote for him, a lot of them are voting for him because of that. And that's likely partially why he didn't become president because a lot of people couldn't vote for a Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:45:42] Yeah. Yeah. And if you don't want your president or senator during the church's bidding, don't vote for a Mormon because they're gonna.

Meggan Hayes [02:45:53] Yeah. They literally made a covenant.

John Dehlin [02:45:56] Yeah. And Mike Lee is a perfect example of that. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he sometimes works against the church's bidding. I don't know. Because I sense some feel like Mike Lee is an embarrassment to Utah and to the Mormon Church. Now others think he's the greatest thing ever for Utah in the Mormon Church. But anyway, I. I can't say with confidence that Mike Lee always does the Mormon Church's bidding.

Mike Lee on Money in American Politics

Meggan Hayes [02:46:22] No, but maybe he thinks he is.

John Dehlin [02:46:25] Yeah. But man, what a name.

Speaker D [02:46:27] I do. Whatever.

John Dehlin [02:46:28] My church, they're more. Yeah, that. That quote.

Meggan Hayes [02:46:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:31] The church tells me that's wild. Right?

Meggan Hayes [02:46:33] Yeah. So there. There is a couple more clips. They're real short here.

John Dehlin [02:46:38] Let's go to the next slide. Go ahead.

Meggan Hayes [02:46:40] No, no, the. Go to. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. So that was. Yeah. So that was just showing his age, the age thing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:49] And I. To his credit, I. I think we should have an age limit. I would even go so far to say that we should change the U.S. constitution so that anyone who's elected president, their term, they will turn. They will be less than 80 by the time their term ends. No one should be able to be elected President of the United States if during their term they will reach 80 or more. I think the Constitution should be amended. If there's a minimum age limit, there should be a maximum age limit. Nobody cares about politics, but that's what I think.

Meggan Hayes [02:47:31] No, I agree. I agree. And he's going to talk more about this just a little bit.

John Dehlin [02:47:35] Yeah. And I think Mormon Church, it should be the same thing with Mormon apostles. If you should be emeritus at 70 years old, which is for general authorities who aren't apostles, why shouldn't apostles have an emeritus age where they're forced into retirement? And prophets, too, anyway. Because they don't want to give up the power. Okay. So I said no.

Meggan Hayes [02:47:54] They waited a long time for it.

John Dehlin [02:47:57] Right. They don't want to give it up. Okay. Should we play the next clip?

Meggan Hayes [02:48:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:02] Okay.

Speaker D [02:48:03] I'm concerned about the amount of money a few people are getting. I mean, the idea that Elon Musk is going to be a trillionaire, what does that mean? We're talking about a thousand billions. And that means, you know, he could drop a couple of billion in a political campaign to support someone who would give him even more power. And he's not just the only one. I shouldn't just pick on him. But there are others that are going to become hundred hundreds of billions of dollars in wealth and they will influence our political system. So these are some of the challenges that we.

John Dehlin [02:48:39] Okay, so he's decrying the corrupt, the potential corrupt corruption of money in politics. Why do you think that's noteworthy or interesting?

Meggan Hayes [02:48:48] Well, he was just saying, I mean he did make the connection between money and politics but he just said I at first I'm worried that there are people who have a lot of money.

John Dehlin [02:48:58] I see. And now I see the next clip.

Meggan Hayes [02:49:00] So yeah, go to that.

John Dehlin [02:49:02] Tell us what this is.

Meggan Hayes [02:49:03] This is from the widow's mind. So that's just a picture of the upper leaders. That's actually when Nelson was still alive inside their fancy church office building.

John Dehlin [02:49:12] Yeah, it looks like the first presidency.

Meggan Hayes [02:49:13] Yeah.

Speaker C [02:49:14] Right.

John Dehlin [02:49:14] What do we see for those who are listening for show, that's from this,

Meggan Hayes [02:49:19] from the widow's mind. It says LDS Church total assets in US dollars estimated at year end. So in 2023, 265 billion, 2024293 billion and 2025 $321 billion.

John Dehlin [02:49:33] And that's just estimate it could be much more than that. I think, I think even the widows might would say minimally that that right.

Meggan Hayes [02:49:41] Yes, that's what we know about.

John Dehlin [02:49:43] And so if Romney is I guess, wow, you want to connect it out or you want me to. For what?

Meggan Hayes [02:49:50] Go for it, John?

John Dehlin [02:49:51] No, no, I'd rather you do it.

Donald Trump on His Own Church

Meggan Hayes [02:49:53] Well, so first he talks about how people should age out and he's pointing it at politics, but he's having a promise own church and then he's pointing the finger at people with too much wealth and too much power who could influence politics. And he's pointing it at government, but somehow not mentioning the church that he belongs to, who he previously said he would do whatever they said.

John Dehlin [02:50:16] Yes, that's wild. Yes, that's wild. Kind of not always self aware. Like so am I. Like we all have weaknesses but like sometimes he's so compartmentalized it it seems like as smart as he is, he hasn't learned to really think in a more sophisticated, nuanced way across his components of compartmentalization. I try, I try to be self critical and I try and note when I'm being hypocritical or saying something that is not consistent and I'm sure I fail but I try to maybe that's an opportunity for him to grow I

Meggan Hayes [02:50:58] don't know, maybe look at things with a little more nuance, a little bit outside that box because I mean, these

John Dehlin [02:51:04] ironies are just so obvious and it's weird that he's not even like noting them.

Meggan Hayes [02:51:11] I know. He's just happy as can be just getting interviewed for the Deseret News.

John Dehlin [02:51:17] Oh my gosh. This is awesome. Great work, Meggan. Okay, next, next, next clip.

Bill Bryson on People Who Are 80 Years Old

Meggan Hayes [02:51:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:22] Okay.

Speaker D [02:51:24] Bill Bryson, his book, the Body, he points out that the human brain shrinks by 20% by the time you're 80 years of age. 20% smaller. Just the size of the brain itself. So I basically think people who are 80 and above really should not be running the world or running the country.

John Dehlin [02:51:44] Oh my gosh. Did he just say that? He didn't just say the country, said the world. Which means churches. And then, and then. Of course. I love it. You're so good. Meggan, you've got tell us what this slide shows.

Mormon Church Set Free The First Presidency

Meggan Hayes [02:52:04] So this shows the quorum of the 12 and it has all of their ages right in front of them. And we thought, let's see, two right there that are over the age of 80. So they should just.

John Dehlin [02:52:16] Yeah, they should be.

Meggan Hayes [02:52:18] And some others that are real close.

John Dehlin [02:52:21] Six 70 year olds and three. Three 60 year olds and one 50 year old 50th year old. So that. But, but that's not the first presidency.

Meggan Hayes [02:52:31] No, they're up next.

John Dehlin [02:52:32] Here's the first presidency. Oh my gosh.

Meggan Hayes [02:52:35] One, two, three strikes.

John Dehlin [02:52:37] So read it. For those who are just listening.

Meggan Hayes [02:52:39] Yes, we have D. Todd Christofferson, who's 81, definitely over the age of 80. His brain has shrunk down maybe by 20, 20%. Henry B. Eyring, 93. And Dallin H. Oaks, who is 93. So if Mitt Romney was the one who made the rules, the first presidency would be just, you know, honestly retired, at home with their families, which I think would be fabulous.

John Dehlin [02:53:01] They should be. And there you, you. I've heard reports that Elder Oaks has Parkinson's, that his hand shakes, that he can't walk without a walker. Set these men free. Mormon church set free the first presidency. Let them retire and just. But I mean, maybe they want it so. I mean, maybe we're being rude and insulting to even say they want it. But, but, but, but forget it. Forget whether what they want.

Meggan Hayes [02:53:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:53:31] What Mitt Romney is saying is that the church is not well served by having octo and non ogenarians run the church. He's saying that without even knowing he's saying it, which is so wild.

Meggan Hayes [02:53:43] Right Right, right. And he, he's smiling and he's talking about government and he is pointing out some things in his church that could use a, A closer, a closer look. So Oaks actually made a surprise appearance at a sacrament meeting. Not this past Sunday, but the one before, I believe. And someone took a small video and threw it on Instagram. And you can see his, you know, bodyguard person just standing right behind him. Like, I think they're there just in case he loses his balance at the pulpit.

John Dehlin [02:54:16] Yeah, yeah. Material says I have to head out, but I love this discussion. I'll watch the VOD later. And he is a member to the YouTube channel. So thanks for the comment material. And you know, we get complaints about the length and, and we're already almost at three hours. And I'm just gonna say I, I, I'm sorry. Not sorry. Like, I am sorry. I wish they were an hour. But also, I don't know what we cut because I love this conversation. If you don't, Meggan, or listeners think I'm making this show worse by talking too much, please tell me the type of stuff I should stop saying. But right now I feel good about it and I've been doing this a long time. What I will say is, listen, people. If you, if you like the content, but it feels Too long, number one, you can speed it up and listen on 1.5 or 2 extra 3x number two. In YouTube we provide chapter headings where you can just jump to the stories you want to listen to or past my ramblings. Like, there are lots of ways to enjoy this content where you don't have to sit for the full three hours. Is that fair?

Meggan Hayes [02:55:30] Yes, absolutely. And I think there are people who don't know that. I tell people on my channel sometimes if they have some sort of criticism or complaint, like someone will say I speak too fast and some people say I speak too slow. And I said, you know what? Technology has figured that out for us. You can slow it down if you want. You can make it longer, or you could speed it up and you could make it shorter. So, yeah, use technology. That's why, that's why we have it.

John Dehlin [02:55:52] And with that, there's just some great comments I have to share. Okay, so first, the super chats Salt Creek Ammo with another donation. I think I was going to say the leaders of the church do this crap. Abuse kids, lie to members, defraud them, etc, in Sal Kamo's opinion, because of their second anointing status. What do you think about that, Meggan? It's Speculation. But what do you think?

Sal Kamo: Maybe Mormons Are More Reckless With Their Second

Meggan Hayes [02:56:23] Yeah, definitely speculation. But I. I think that because from my perception and from what people have told me who are close to some of the higher leaders that they do believe 100%. I don't think that I would see them coming into this as I have my second anointing now, so I can just be a terrible person. I don't think that's happening. I think there may be times when because of their second anointing and their status, they think this is what God wants. And so I'm going to do this, which I think is different than this is what I want to do because I want to be a bad person.

John Dehlin [02:56:58] That is great. That is great analysis. It's more about the hubris of believing that you have a special connection with God and Jesus and that your feelings or thoughts are divinely sanctioned. That is more of the danger. But I do think there is this idea that you're promised that no sins will keep you out of exaltation other than killing someone innocently. You can kill a. Apparently you can kill a guilty person and still become exalted and become a God in Mormon theology if you've had your second anointing. But anyway, the, the point is, is that I do think if you feel like none of your mistakes are going to keep you out of exaltation and you're motivated by exaltation, as a believing Mormon, I do think that might make you more reckless or careless or at least for some people, because that's just human nature.

Meggan Hayes [02:57:50] Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna do this, and it's okay. God has already told me I'm good.

John Dehlin [02:57:54] Or if I'm. Or if I'm wrong, it doesn't matter because I'm not shedding into some blood.

Meggan Hayes [02:57:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:00] Yeah. So anyway, I think that could be a factor. Thanks to Christina Cruz S41 for the super chat. Thank you. Really quickly, a couple other comments about the length of the show. The same. Elias writes the Ms. Length is now like ZZ Tops, beards. It's the brand. Do you get the ZZ Top reference because you're younger than me, Meggan?

Super Chat

Meggan Hayes [02:58:25] I do. I do get it.

John Dehlin [02:58:27] Do you know why it's particularly important that you understand the ZZ Top reference?

Meggan Hayes [02:58:34] Why?

John Dehlin [02:58:34] Because they're Houstonians.

Meggan Hayes [02:58:37] Oh, oh, oh, oh. Okay. It's like, where's John going with it?

John Dehlin [02:58:41] ZZ Top Rock band is from Houston. Or at least they lived in Houston while I lived in Houston. So fellow Houstonians. Yes, Meggan, A couple other comments. Jay Castro. 836 writes 836 all writes John and Meg. Keep up the fantastic work. Always love to you both. I love the love because it lets me know that this is worthwhile because it's a lot of work, you know, and it's worth a lot of money. Tongan Jedi writes, just do your thing. I love that. And Joffrey R. Holland writes, I vote for the long form. Good stuff.

Meggan Hayes [02:59:18] Stuff.

John Dehlin [02:59:19] Do you like the validation, Meggan? I do, I do.

Meggan Hayes [02:59:22] I love it. I, I wouldn't, I would be lying if I didn't say that. I. I love it when people just join in and we feel that connection and we're listening and we're talking and people are in the live chat.

John Dehlin [02:59:36] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:59:37] This is the. The best of ex Mormon community. Right. Just, even though we're talking about hard things, we're trying to be balanced, we're trying to be fair and be peacemakers and give people the benefit of the doubt while also calling for justice. And it, it's just all of that nuance and I think it's beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:59:56] Yeah. And I'll add, if the Mormon church is worth 3 to $500 billion, controls the lives of 4 to 5 million people worldwide, and has endless power and money to influence government and police forces and state legislatures, etc. With all that money and power, is it not important that there be in depth coverage of their practices and, and possibly abuses or mistakes, purely just for accountability and improvement?

Meggan Hayes [03:00:32] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:00:34] I think so. Another super chat From Jessica Alter. 8925. Love the long form and both of you, thank you for the super chat and for the donation that helps keep the podcast going. Okay, one more. We're not done with Mitt Romney. One more clip. Is that okay? I think one more clip, maybe more.

Mitt Romney: The Church Has Never Failed Me

Speaker D [03:00:53] Number two is my church, my faith, by faith in the Gospel itself as taught in scripture, but also the leaders of my church. I happen to be blessed by having church leaders who have not failed me. They are individuals of great character and capacity, and I look to them for, for guidance.

John Dehlin [03:01:18] Okay, what do you think is interesting about that, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [03:01:21] Well, just go, go to the next slide because I, I just feel like it shows kind of his blind spot.

John Dehlin [03:01:28] Okay, go to 20.

Meggan Hayes [03:01:29] Go to 25. Yeah, there you go. So he says the church leaders have not failed him. And is it because he doesn't know or because he doesn't think any of these things constitute a failure? It was just an interesting statement, not necessarily coming from someone who is so believing, but I just, it made me think of all of these things. So I made a list of LDS Church controversies, just a few that I thought of off the top of my head.

John Dehlin [03:01:56] Go ahead and read them for the listening audience.

Meggan Hayes [03:01:59] Okay. The SEC Unsigned Peak shell companies, the Book of Abraham translation, Seer Stone and Book of Mormon translation. Multiple First Vision accounts, Priesthood restoration timeline, Race in the priesthood, DNA in the Book of Mormon, Polygamy and Polyandry Sexual abuse hotline curtain McConkie Church membership statistics and Activity Rates Masonry in the Temple Endowment, Mark Hoffman forgeries, LGBTQ policies and reversals, 2015 exclusion policy, 2019 reversal and paid general authorities. Just a few things that I learned about after I left the church that I would have not thought good, honest, upstanding men had been doing or hiding. I don't know if I would say they were. I mean, some of them, I think were failures in transparency for sure.

John Dehlin [03:02:48] And tie this back to Mitt Romney, just so I understand the point you're making.

Meggan Hayes [03:02:52] So he said he was talking about the things in his life that are the most important to him. And he said number two was his church and he has leaders in his church who have never failed him.

John Dehlin [03:03:04] So he would. So if I'm trying to make sense of that, either he doesn't know about the SEC fraud and the Book of Abraham, a Book of Mormon fraud and the church history fraud and the DNA and the polygamy problems. I mean, he comes out of the polygamy colonies in Mexico, so he's got to know about polygamy. But maybe he doesn't know about the polyandry and Joseph Smith's, you know, teenage girls and all that. I, I, you know, honestly, I don't know how much he knows about the Kurt McConkey Sexual Abuse Hotline, although I know he would have used it as a bishop in a stake president, but I don't know if he would have known about the child cover up abuse stuff. You know, I imagine he knows about the masonry temple endowment stuff and the Hoffman stuff because he lived through it. Certainly knows about the LGBTQ stuff. So I mean, I'm gonna just go out on a limb and say he knows about most of this stuff, if not all of it. Whether he's deeply considered it, I don't know and I would doubt. But maybe what I would say is either these things either, like he's such a man of the world that he just realizes in corporations and churches this is how, I mean, he's worked in the federal government, for heaven's sake, so he and in big business, so he would be used to the biggest and most significant type of corporate scandals and law breaking that any of us could ever experience. So either he doesn't think these things are problems or deal breakers, or he doesn't know about them enough or hasn't thought about them enough, or hey, they are deal breakers in the sense of them being considered as ways the church leaders have failed him. Like, there's lots of ways to take this. How do you, knowing that we're speculating, how do you take it, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [03:05:13] I just thought it was an interesting wrap up to what he's already said because in his previous comments, when I heard them, I was like, he's talking about the church. But he wasn't, I don't think, trying to talk about the church. So then for him to go and say, my church leaders have never failed me. Does he really just have a somewhat naive view or a very simple view of the church versus what he's maybe seen in politics and big business does? Do they get a pass? Do they have some sort of, you know, block between him and what the church has done versus what he's seen in the world? I just, it was fascinating to me that that's how he wanted to finish up his interview. Part of finishing up his interview after saying things about his own church, but then saying, but actually it's just wonderful and bright and shiny.

Responding to Mitt Romney's Slavery Comments

John Dehlin [03:05:59] You know, I'm just reminded of something that happened to me last night. I was, I was on the phone with someone who I love, who is faithful Mormon and is actually serving a mission for the church. And as an adult, as a, you know, retired senior. And she said to me, you know, there's a lot of things I can forgive in this world, but one thing I can't forgive is people who committed who, who participated in slavery after, you know, there were abolitionists because we watched, we watched together the new George Young, Young Washington movie. And afterwards this person learned about Martha Washington, I think George Washington's wife, and just found out that like, the Washingtons were slave owners and weren't always good to their slaves or didn't always release their slaves. And she was basically saying, I'm really sad and upset because, like, people who I thought I respected and loved would be slaveholders when there were abolitionists. And there's no excuse for that. No excuse. So she's basically saying, I can, I can endure a lot of sin and problems, but the one unforgivable thing to me is being a slave. Once there were abolitionists who knew better. Can you guess what I said as A response to this person. Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [03:07:31] Well, you are putting out. So I was going to say something about what we've been talking about previously, but go for it.

John Dehlin [03:07:37] I said, okay, well, I said, here's something that might help you, friend. Believing Mormon friend, did you know that Brigham Young was a slaveholder? And she was like, no, I didn't know that. I said, did you? And I wasn't trying to shake her faith. I literally wasn't. I want her to believe. And I don't try and take people's faith away. I don't. I was literally trying to help her just understand the world better from my perspective. And I said, why don't you do this? Dig into. Because I also think Brigham Young legalized slavery in the Utah territories. And so I said, believing friend, look into Brigham Young's slavery, slave owning as a prophet and to his legalization of slavery in the Utah territories, and maybe your faithfulness will help you understand better why there were more slave owning and slave supporting good people. Maybe it'll help you see the slave issue as more nuanced than good or evil people, you know?

Meggan Hayes [03:08:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:51] Anyway.

Meggan Hayes [03:08:51] Yes, because. Yeah, it is. There's. I, since leaving Mormonism, have not found things that are as black and white as I once thought they were.

Speaker D [03:09:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:03] Well, I'll just say, going back to Mitt Romney now, I think that what I'm guessing is there's a combination of he hasn't really studied these issues in depth because most haven't, and if he's a faithful orthodox member, he would not be incentivized to really think about and study those issues in depth. And then if you've got the believing lens on, everything can be minimized or waved away, like you said. Oh, the CES letter has a rebuttal. Oh, then I'm not going to think about it. He's probably just like anybody else who just the lead. The leaders can do no meaningful wrong. They're generally led by God, and his brain doesn't even let him go there, you know?

Meggan Hayes [03:09:53] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C [03:09:54] Well.

Meggan Hayes [03:09:54] And I mean, he's been busy during his life, so he's had plenty of other things to do besides read the CES letter because it hasn't been a priority.

John Dehlin [03:10:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I, again, I love him. I think he has a good heart. I hear he's a kind father and husband and a good, honest person for the most part. And while I had issues with him politically sometimes, I. I think he's a good man with a good heart. And thank you for that. That's fascinating. Thank you for sharing that today on this podcast. Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [03:10:29] Yeah, when I was listening to it, I was like, oh, wow, he's just gonna keep saying things.

John Dehlin [03:10:35] Super good. Okay. And, and kudos to McKay Coppins and the Desert News for covering that story. This type of. I would have loved to have Mitt Romney on Mormon stories or McKay Coppins for that matter. So I'm glad they're doing good stuff. Okay, next. Next clip. Who's Adam Clark?

Adam Clark

Meggan Hayes [03:10:54] Me. Adam Clark. He is from Eagle Mountain, Utah, and he is a father. I think he was recently divorced. He graduated from BYU with both, I believe, a bachelor's and master's degree. So just your typical faithful Mormon guy. So that's what this, you know, this slide is kind of letting us get to know him a little bit.

John Dehlin [03:11:18] What's that? All right.

Utah man accused of stealing $13,000 from cycling club while

Meggan Hayes [03:11:20] Okay, so. And then this is the next thing we're going to learn about him is that an Eagle Mountain man is facing felony charges for stealing at least $13,000 from a cycling club while he was president. He allegedly used the funds to pay bills, child support, and eat at restaurants. Adam H. Clark is charged with theft amounting to over $5,000, a second degree felony, and embezzlement or misapplication of, of association funds. A second degree felony.

John Dehlin [03:11:46] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:11:47] Whoops.

John Dehlin [03:11:49] Yeah. Okay, is there, is there another slide on that or is that.

Meggan Hayes [03:11:52] Yeah. Nope. Go to one more.

John Dehlin [03:11:55] One more slide. Let me, let me show the slides. Okay, there it is. Go ahead.

Meggan Hayes [03:12:02] Yep. Yeah. So from 2024 to 2026, according to investigators, unauthorized withdrawal were allegedly made from flyers, cycling club accounts while Clark served as president. In 2025, he was called as the Sunday school teacher for the 15 to 17 year old youth in his LDS ward. And 2025 to 2026 alleged spending, including included rent, child support, utilities, Netflix, restaurants, and other personal expenses. So kind of a strange, it actually made me a little bit sad, this story, because he's not taking this money and buying, you know, a luxury vehicle or, you know, going on this spending spree. He's just paying his bills. And in the middle of it, he was called in by his bishop, I presume, or a counselor to teach the youth in his ward. And if he was having these financial struggles, which it kind of appears he might have been, why is this not something that was being addressed in that meeting? I mean, I don't. Maybe he was spending the other money he makes on frivolous stuff and then using this to pay his bills. I don't know. The story. Just as it was presented in the news. It just kind of made me sad. But again, if he went into the bishop while he was taking money from this club that he was president of, why did the bishop not discern that that was happening?

John Dehlin [03:13:24] Here's a comment. J. Castro, 8360 writes, the list is endless for Mormon members stealing money. Is that fair or is that unfair?

Meggan Hayes [03:13:36] I mean, I look at the news a lot.

John Dehlin [03:13:38] Is that Mormon bigotry? Bigotry against Mormons?

Speaker C [03:13:43] I.

Meggan Hayes [03:13:43] There is a lot of financial fraud in Utah. A lot. And it's. I don't know that it's always Mormons, but every case that I have looked into ends up with a Mormon component.

John Dehlin [03:13:55] Yeah, I, I will say, like I said, with child abuse. I've talked to FBI agents and white collar crime experts and they've told me Utah is amongst the leaders in the nation in white collar crime per capita.

Meggan Hayes [03:14:12] So what is the connection there? Yeah, I mean, the church has a lot of money and he was going in to see his bishop if he really couldn't pay his rent or pay his utilities, I mean, he used some of the money just pay his utilities for his house.

John Dehlin [03:14:26] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:14:27] You'd hope he would feel safe enough with his bishop to just say, hey, I can't pay my utilities this month. Can you help me?

John Dehlin [03:14:33] Yeah. Yeah. Sad. Okay, well, for the sake of time, we'll jump to the next story, but thanks for sharing that one.

Is Utah Becoming the Next Las Vegas?

Meggan Hayes [03:14:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:40] This Las Vegas story, Utah. What do you mean by. Is Utah becoming the next Las Vegas?

Meggan Hayes [03:14:48] So there are two different. Yeah, two different headlines. One from LDS Living and then one from the Deseret News that were shown there. Yeah, Daily.

John Dehlin [03:14:55] The same thing as LDS living.

Meggan Hayes [03:14:58] Lds daily. No, it's different.

John Dehlin [03:15:00] Okay. Okay.

Meggan Hayes [03:15:01] Yeah, still like church adjacent. Okay. So this one says, Utah's the new Las Vegas. Sort of. And the other one said, I married 468 couples before I turned 21. Most of them I never met in person. And then if you go to the next video, be married as a, as

John Dehlin [03:15:17] an officiator or like head forwarder. Okay.

Speaker C [03:15:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:20] So as an officiator. Okay. Okay.

Meggan Hayes [03:15:22] Yep. As an officiator. So she'll explain it in this clip.

John Dehlin [03:15:25] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [03:15:31] So people can apply for their marriage license and then even have their wedding ceremony, all without even leaving their house. You could get married, married on your couch if you wanted. And nowhere else in the US can that happen.

John Dehlin [03:15:43] What?

Meggan Hayes [03:15:46] So we send couples the zoom link after they sign up for a marriage ceremony, and then they just hop onto that link at the time and day of their wedding, and then we perform their ceremony. The couples can be anywhere in the world if they want. They don't even have to be in Utah, and they don't even have to be together. So one person could be an after Africa, another one could be in Japan. As long as the officiant is in Utah county performing the wedding, then it follows the law. I remember.

John Dehlin [03:16:15] What the holy heck? I have never heard of that. Anyway, I don't want to slow us down. What do you want to say next?

Online Marriages in Utah County

Meggan Hayes [03:16:25] So during COVID there were a lot of places that started offering online marriage.

John Dehlin [03:16:30] Okay, that's the next slide.

Meggan Hayes [03:16:32] Yeah. Solemnization. And everywhere else except Utah let that practice go after. Things opened up when Covid was, you know, things were opening up after Covid, except Utah. And then in Utah county, they kept it as a menu item on their online platform. And so people all over the world get married in Utah county virtually.

John Dehlin [03:16:58] And Utah county is not all of Utah.

Meggan Hayes [03:17:00] So it is legal in all of Utah. But in Utah county, they actually have a full system just for that. It's on their website. You can sign up on there. Just the other places in Utah don't offer it as seamlessly. It's still legal. But in Utah county, they offer a very quick, seamless process. And you go up, you go online, you sign up, you get 30 minutes with the officiant, and then you're. You're married.

John Dehlin [03:17:27] I mean, part of this seems to be to encourage international marriages where, I don't know, Mormon missionaries can marry men or women that they knew on their missions who are still abroad, and then bring them over with immigration. Like, I'm trying to figure out again, if, if, you know, Utah is the most Mormon state capita, and Utah county is among the most Mormon counties per capita in all of Utah. So you have to assume the Mormon Church has at least blessed or supported this, although that's an assumption. But then I'm trying to figure out why the church would want this. And I do know that at a high level, the church is pro marriage, pro traditional marriage, and they're pro babies. And they want as many people I know that the Mormon Church wants as many of their young people getting married as soon as possible and having babies as soon as possible. So for me, that is the simplest explanation is the church just said, let's do this and let's keep it and let's promote it so we can have as much young, early Mormon marriages with babies as possible.

Meggan Hayes [03:18:45] Yeah. And they've made it so easy. And interestingly enough, There was a little, I went to the website and looked and there was a little disclaimer that said if you get married here, it might not be legal in the country that you're in. So I mean, because they'll have people from all over the world. So it's just really interesting that people can just sign up and within 30 minutes, you know, once you have your appointment, then you're good.

Utah's marriage rate

John Dehlin [03:19:11] Well, let's talk about the numbers.

Meggan Hayes [03:19:13] Yeah, this was the other thing that the LDS Living article included. Married adult residents. 54.9% of Utah's age 15 plus are currently married. That's the highest in the U.S. the median age at first marriages as of 2023 in Utah for men was 26.8 and in the U.S. 30.6. So Utah's quite a bit younger. And for women, Utah was 25.2 and the US was 28.7. So also quite a bit younger than the national average. And then married adults in the US, Latter Day Saints 67% and general population 52%. They're just reinforcing that more people are married in Utah at a younger age than the national average.

John Dehlin [03:19:58] Why does it say 15 plus? Does Utah have 15 year olds getting married?

Meggan Hayes [03:20:03] I don't know. I thought that was a weird number too.

John Dehlin [03:20:06] I bet like 15 year olds is illegal married age in Utah, which, which fits for the polygamy history, right?

Meggan Hayes [03:20:13] Yeah, I didn't look deeper into that. I just thought, wow, that's really young.

John Dehlin [03:20:17] And honestly, I'm surprised that you, I mean, I'm surprised, not surprised that Utah leads the nation in marriage prevalence rates. And I mean, I'm not surprised that they get married younger on average than, than most of the U.S. but I, I wasn't sure about marriage rates just because sometimes Utah does weird things with trends. But yeah, it's clearly the Mormon influence is at play there. That's fascinating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's, I mean, I think that's just the Mormon Church's desolate, desperate attempt at trying to not shrink, to grow, to grow the church to not shrink. Because a big chunk of the Mormon Church's decline in the United States is a declining birth rate, less babies born to Mormons, faithful Mormons, less faithful Mormons. And then also the church has studied and determined for decades that the greatest chance of someone remaining faithful is if they go on a mission, get married almost immediately after, and start having babies almost immediately after that, I think significantly increases their likelihood of staying faithful in

Meggan Hayes [03:21:42] the church and staying married too. I mean, I know A lot of people who get married super young to the, the first person that they dated that they thought it could work out with, and the man goes on to get an education and provide for the family, and then maybe things aren't working out. But the, the woman doesn't have an education because she was told to stay home with the kids. And so even though she maybe doesn't want to stay married, she doesn't see a way to support herself and her children without the husband. Like I've, I've seen that a lot of times. And so sometimes the marriage rate is higher because of that dynamic, I think.

John Dehlin [03:22:26] Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Well, that's a great story. That's fascinating. I will say my understanding of the research is the later you get married, the happier you're likely to be in your marriage, and the more likely it is your marriage will survive. And the earlier you get married, the less happy, on average, you'll be in your marriage, and the less likely it is your marriage will survive. So that's weird to me.

Meggan Hayes [03:22:57] It makes sense to me. I also read an article that talked about how people who wait longer to get married are more likely to hold and solve their own emotional issues because they don't automatically have someone there to dump it on. So they're more likely to go through the process of learning how to do that.

Meggan on Criticism

John Dehlin [03:23:15] Yeah. Really quickly, before we do our last story, I'm going to just. I'm going to. I like self analysis and self criticism, so I'm going to share a comment that's kind of a criticism capo5005 and I get this regularly, every episode, something like this. I wish Meggan and or Julia had more of a role in these news episodes. I like John, but I need more of Meggan being in the driver's seat for both choosing the stories and her psychological takes. Well, I need you to address the choosing the stories allegation first.

Meggan Hayes [03:23:54] Yes, I do choose the stories and make all of the slides. John shows up and says, what are we talking about today? So, yeah, that. That's me.

John Dehlin [03:24:07] I mean, occasionally I'll say, can we cover this?

Meggan Hayes [03:24:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:10] But usually almost every time you're like, it's already in there.

Meggan Hayes [03:24:13] Yeah, I have four slides on that. John, that was two days ago. Where, where have you been?

John Dehlin [03:24:16] Yeah, it's rare that I'm telling you to include a story that you haven't already included. But, you know, the, the bigger thing is too much John, not enough Meggan. I, I really, I swear, like, every, every, every segment, I say, megan, I want to hear what you think first. And I don't think I stop you like I think I wait till you say what you want to say. Now, it may be that they just want me to shut up and talk less, which is fair. And also, this is my freaking podcast and people watch generally because they like me. So I want you and the no pressure. You can say, john, talk less. I want to talk more. I will not be ego driven or upset. What's your response, Meggan, to this feedback and criticism? They're saying, they're saying, megan, talk more, John, talk less.

Meggan Hayes [03:25:06] I don't want to have pressure for either of us to talk a certain amount because then I start to overthink things. So I don't think that's necessarily helpful. Helpful for me to think, oh, I need to talk more. I just want it to be very natural. And you have admittedly been in the space longer than I have. So to absorb your wisdom and the experiences that you've had, I think you're naturally going to have more to say. You've been doing this a lot longer than I have. I've spent a lot of time learning and not as much time talking. I think I'm getting more comfortable each episode, but I think it feels very natural to me and I don't want to stop talking then have you say, tell me more and then me be like, I don't know what to say now.

John Dehlin [03:25:51] Yeah, yeah. A lot of people in the comments are just saying, please be authentic. And I think one also criticism I get is that I paid too much attention to the comments, which is probably fair. Ahgif89 says there needs to be a chest timer. That's where like we're both. We both hitting the timer so that we end up talking the same. Anyway, I like, I like I'm trying to monitor my comments. I'll keep trying to monitor. I like. Generally, the biggest piece of feedback is people think we make a good team. I love hearing that and I think that is the major takeaway. But I'm going to keep trying to be natural but also thoughtful.

Meggan Hayes [03:26:33] Yeah, I think that's a good combo because I don't want you to be trying so hard to be natural, that you're not thoughtful or too thoughtful that you're not natural or vice versa. Just be here and be talking and see where the conversation takes us.

John Dehlin [03:26:47] Yeah, people do tend to like our synergy and I love that it is funny because A, I think you do have good psychological takes on things, as does Margi. And I'm sure Julia does too. And I freaking have a PhD in psychology. So like I do have a, I do know a thing or two about psychology and that doesn't mean people want more of my takes. But I, that is funny.

Meggan Hayes [03:27:09] Well, and I, I've said this before, but I've listened to every episode of Mormon stories. So when I was on my journey in the church, leaving the church, studying the psychological reasons, reading a bunch of self help books, I was also consuming mass amounts of Mormon stories and the guests on here and Natasha Helfer and learn, you know, the gift of the Mormon faith crisis and listening to Margi. And so I have learned a ton from your. The education. So you being on here and sharing that I think is. It's awesome.

John Dehlin [03:27:43] And I learned a ton from you and Julia and Margi. And so I mean let's just all keep learning from each other. 2800 writes. Leave John alone. He's fine. Yes, his guest can. Should be as active as he. And can cut him off too. Yes. And I try not to cut people off, but I know I do partly because I like to like not move on before we cover something thoroughly. Usually when I cut someone off, it's because I feel like they're moving on before we finish talking about something. But either way, I don't like cutting people off. I'll try not to do it. But also, Meggan, please feel free to always cut me off if there's something you think we need to not miss. Anyway, I like it when guests are spicy and co host are spicy. But anyway, I love the feedback. Thanks to everyone for it and we'll just keep trying to do our best but. But we love your takes, Meggan. All right, let's go. Last, last story since we're already at 3:30.

Rumor Has It That BYU Has Flock Cameras

Meggan Hayes [03:28:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:38] All right.

Meggan Hayes [03:28:39] Yeah. So this is about flock cameras, specifically at byu. So the Daily Universe wrote an article about flock cameras in Provo. And a Flock camera, what they do, they actually have them in my neighborhood. They record license plates as they go past the camera on vehicles.

John Dehlin [03:28:57] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [03:28:58] And then they keep them in a database. So that way, the way it was explained to me when I went to a neighborhood meeting about it, a police officer was there and he said that way if we're, you know, searching for a miss child and we know the license plate of the car, we can go to the Flock Base, the Flock camera database, and we can see where that car's been, you know, if it turned the corner here and went through here. And that's how it was explained to me. But now people are starting to learn about these and really don't like them. Like it's mass surveillance and who's holding the data and what is it actually being used for? So Provo City had a meeting about it and which is what the Daily Universe talked about. And then I also found something on Reddit saying there is an unusually large amount of them at byu. So I just thought it was interesting that the Daily Universe wrote an article but didn't point out the fact that BYU has a lot.

John Dehlin [03:29:51] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [03:29:52] Just talked about it being a talking point in a Provo.

John Dehlin [03:29:55] And so that's what's in this visual. Visual on the right.

Meggan Hayes [03:29:58] Yeah. So the left is the Daily Universe article and then the. On the right is the post from the ex Mormon subreddit saying the Mormon Church using Flock to spy on BYU students. So you can see there is a large concentration of them just in Utah.

John Dehlin [03:30:12] Just in Utah County. Like three dozen just in Provo. 33 dozen. 36 cameras.

Meggan Hayes [03:30:20] Yeah. So this says many cities in the US including Provo, have contracts with Flock Safety. Their most prominent security device is its automated license plate reader, which reads plates and identifies cars using artificial intelligence. I just wanted to make sure people understood what they were. But then this shows. Yeah, that next one shows Utah as a whole on the left. So you can see the heated areas have more. And then if you zoom into Provo, you can see they're kind of scattered around the outskirts. And then look at BYU. And then if you zoom into BYU, approximately 30.

John Dehlin [03:30:49] They're all over the campus. So do we have any speculation as to why BYU Provo, the church wants so many Flock cameras and how they would use that information?

Meggan Hayes [03:31:07] People were speculating in the comments. And then people are like, well, all universities have them. And then someone else came back in and said, no, actually, if you go on the Flock camera site and you look at other universities, a lot of them don't have any, or they may be have one at a main entrance. And so that didn't hold up. And then also the other, like byu, Idaho didn't have them in that concentration either.

John Dehlin [03:31:28] I just want to know the top, top three to five possible uses of these cameras either for BYU or the church or law enforcement. Like, how do they help? What are the scenarios where they're most helpful?

Meggan Hayes [03:31:43] I think child abduction in Texas is a big one that they use it for. Okay.

Speaker C [03:31:47] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:31:48] Well, that's good if that's what it's used for. Is it attract gay. Gay activities? Like that'd be a problem. Right?

Meggan Hayes [03:31:54] Right. Yeah. I mean, which BYU has done in the past.

John Dehlin [03:31:57] Yeah. So it just depends on how they're

Meggan Hayes [03:31:59] being used, you know, and that was the speculation. And. And neither of the articles had any, you know, real reasons why. I mean, they. BYU didn't make a comment.

John Dehlin [03:32:09] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:32:10] So it would be speculation. But yeah, I mean, I think when. For child abductions, because a lot of times a child is abducted by a family member, so they know the license plate, they know what car they're in, and they used to put them up on just these big screens on the freeway. And now they have the Flock cameras, which is helping. Or, you know, a. A suspect who is fleeing the scene of a murder or robbery in a vehicle where they know the license plate. But, yeah, I would. I would take people's comments because I just thought it was really fascinating that BYU has such a high concentration of them as opposed to the surrounding area.

John Dehlin [03:32:44] Wow. Okay. We're getting a flood of really interesting comments, so I'm just going to read them all. Let's see. Julia writes, when I took a tour of BYU campus, the students were telling me places that were dangerous for women to walk, talk. So rape. If. If it's. If they're used for rape or, you know, sexual assault. That's good, right?

Meggan Hayes [03:33:13] Yeah. To make people feel safe or art, and to actually keep them safe or

John Dehlin [03:33:17] apprehend if they're used for that. Kudos. Wynn Johnson writes, BYU can use the data to see what license plates are frequently visited LGBTQ businesses. That's speculation, but, yeah, I think we already kind of addressed that. JCastro8360 writes, Invasion of privacy is the top two reasons. I don't know what he means. Top two. What I was going to say is that, is that, you know, we know that the church's stance on Covid in terms of encouraging vaccines and social distancing and mask wearing caused a lot of faithful orthodox MAGA Mormons to question if the prophet was inspired and to question the church's truthfulness. And I'm going to say that matters of privacy and these ideas of surveillance could be as dangerous or more to Mormon faithfulness for maga, Utah county faithful Mormons as Covid and vaccine stuff. You know what I'm saying? MAGA Mormons don't like invasions of privacy, I don't think.

MAGA Mormons Talk Mass Surveillance

Meggan Hayes [03:34:37] Yes. And yeah, a lot of the comments I saw were along those lines. This is mass surveillance, because I was trying to read up on Flock cameras because I've known about the ones in my neighborhood for a long time, and I didn't think too much about them. And then I started reading stuff and I was like, oh, maybe this is the naive person coming out of me again, not even thinking of the mass surveillance side of it. So then I was trying to weigh, you know, safety versus surveillance.

Speaker D [03:35:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:02] Okay, quickly, a couple other comments. One, Lava Blue writes, law enforcement keeps getting caught. Stalking civilians would be a flock. That's creepy. If they're like, think a woman's cute and they start stalking her to find out where she is and where she's going to be or, or they're mad at a guy and so they're stalking civilians to like, see where they could go harass someone who they don't like. Like that's disturbing the, the potential for abuse.

Meggan Hayes [03:35:32] Well, and I mean, if we're looking at a case recently where police maybe didn't do things quite right with the reckless Ben and they knew where he was at and where he was going

John Dehlin [03:35:42] to be, that's problematic. If the corrupt, harmful things, bad things can happen. All right, Truth 666 writes. So BYU has a problem with child abductions. I don't think we're saying that.

Meggan Hayes [03:35:57] No.

John Dehlin [03:35:57] I think we're just talking about possible positive use cases. J. Bala 5454. They actually can use them in criminal trials. Look at the Adelson case in Florida. So that's, that's useful. If they can use it to help prove a crime or, you know, again, an abduction or a murder or rape or whatever, that's good. I think it could help with sexual assault. But if the church is going to shame and blame the victims, it might not. Or cover up stuff. Yeah, stuff. Then it'd be a problem. All right. Well, that's fascinating. I'm so glad we covered that, Meggan. Thank you.

Generally Unquotable

Meggan Hayes [03:36:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:36:38] Two other comments I'm going to share before we wrap up. Brandy Willis writes, for those who are sick of John or don't want to hear John or who want more Meggan, less John or who want shorter news episodes, we have an answer for you. What is it, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [03:36:56] It's generally unquotable. That's my channel. Go find me generally unquotable on YouTube. And my stories are almost always between 10 and 20. 20 minutes would be a long one.

Speaker D [03:37:08] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:37:09] So if you need a quick. And I do it Monday through Friday. So if you just need a quick. This is what's going on in the news. Go to my channel. And I still put out a short episode on Friday mornings that comes out before I come on here.

John Dehlin [03:37:20] I don't know how you do it all. Hopefully the money you're getting. Hopefully the money you're getting from Mormon Stories work helps fund your work with generally unquotable too.

Meggan Hayes [03:37:32] It does, it does. It's made a huge difference.

John Dehlin [03:37:36] That's what we want. I like to support good creators like, you know, it's my pleasure. I'm sure my viewers and listeners and donors all agree. Final thing, Census Gary writes 4 to 5 million people. I mentioned. I always mentioned 4 to 5 million active believing Mormons which, which is worldwide. And I stand by that. But Census Gary writes The church says 17 million. I want to see John's calculations. He's probably right, but I want details. And I'll just say I don't have my own calculations, but go to the Camorra project. Go to just Google LDS Church activity rates in the United States. We've covered it on Mormon Stories many, many times. Go to Mormon Stories and Google Mormon Church activity rates. It's widely known that worldwide two thirds of the people that the church claims to be Mormon are inactive or don't even claim to be Mormon anymore. And that only a third attend church internationally and domestically. And of those, only a third of the adults are temple recommend holding. Holding. And that's just. It's everywhere. And I just do your own work. But I stand by it. 4 to 5 million max active faithful Mormons worldwide. Which means 2 to 2.5 active faithful Mormons in the United States. Any. Any comment there, Meggan? Do you agree? Disagree?

Census Gary: 4 to 5 million Mormons worldwide

Meggan Hayes [03:39:17] Yep, I agree. I look at sites. There's one that's called Mormon Metrics. It's really great. And then I can't remember the one. There's a blog that I can't remember the name of that he puts out stats and he's a faithful believing member.

John Dehlin [03:39:30] But it also probably has another name, LDS Growth Blog or something.

Meggan Hayes [03:39:33] Yes, y. That one.

John Dehlin [03:39:35] Matt Martinich. And he's regularly featured on the. In the Salt Lake Tribune and Salt Lake Tribune has covered this. Just. Yes, Salt Lake Tribune Church LDS Church activity in the US you'll get all the stories you need.

Meggan Hayes [03:39:50] Yep.

Mormon News Podcast: Thank You!

John Dehlin [03:39:52] All right. Well, Meggan, what an amazing episode. Thank you for all your work.

Meggan Hayes [03:39:58] You are so welcome and keep up the good work. Yep. Thank you to everyone who joined us in the live chat. It's really. I love that you read. You read a little more comments this time. I actually liked it.

John Dehlin [03:40:08] Yeah. And we're three hours and 40 minutes in, so we're gonna hear from it. But yeah, I love the comments. I think we, we read good ones. And thanks to Julia for thanks to Trevor for monitoring the comments. Thanks to Julia for time codes and show notes and post production. Thanks to Brooklyn as well for post production. Thanks to all the donors that make this possible. Please donate to MormonStories.org Donor don't donate MormonStories.org Donate to become a monthly donor because we need you to pay Mormon Stories so the week of hey Meggan and Julia and Brooklyn and me. So please, if you value the Mormon News podcast, please donate here. I don't know if you know this, Meggan. There may be weeks where I can't do this, but I've talked to Nemo about filling in for me when I can't. I think Nemo's great. I hope you don't mind if Nemo can do this.

Meggan Hayes [03:41:00] If I can't sometimes, that would be fantastic. I think Nemo is wonderful.

John Dehlin [03:41:05] Yeah, we've got a lot going on, so sometimes I'm just not going to be able to do this. But I love doing whenever I can. But. But I will pay Nemo. So Please donate@mormonstories.org donate to make it possible. If you already donate, thank you. Please comment, like subscribe. All that helps. Please share Also if you already donate, thank you. You've been making this possible. And then finally, if you want to support our lawsuit defending ourselves against what we think are attempts, what I believe are attempts to bankrupt and silence us, please donate to our legal fund@mormonstories.org legal and we'll try to give you an update on the legal stuff as it as it proceeds. But mostly just thanks for tuning in. Thanks for your comments. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on the Mormon News podcast and on Mormon Stories podcasts in generally unquotable. Thanks a lot. Take care. Thanks, Meggan. Bye, everybody.