The Mormon Newscast

Guest [00:00:02] Welcome to the groundbreaking news program that delves into the heart of Mormonism, Your weekly window into the unique intersections of news, history and culture that resonate with the tapestry of Mormonism. So whether you're tuning in from the heart of Utah or joining us from around the world, your favorite news program starts now, where news meets insight and the stories of our faith unfold.

Guest 2 [00:00:27] Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Mormon Newscast where we cover breaking news stories relating to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Today's date is January 15, 2024. Our lead story for tonight will be covered by our man on the street, Dr. John Dehlin. Dr. Dehlin.

Guest 3 [00:00:46] Thank you, RFM. Okay, so today the leading story is Mormon church hires LGBT ally as head spokesman. Welcome to the Mormon Newscast. Deseret News just a few days ago reported that Aaron Sherinian is a longtime global communication specialist and was introduced Tuesday as the new head of public affairs and media relations for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And of course, we're all wondering, you know, if if the Tim Ballard Russell and Ballard Emerald Ballard fiasco was the cause. But what's most interesting is for the focus of today, we're going to be talking about how sort of conservative, fundamentalist, prepper, I would even say, potentially you could say MAGA Mormonism is coming unglued at, at this appointment. And so what we've done is we're pulling a bunch of clips from a YouTube channel called Quick by this guy named Greg Matson, and we're going to share this story through the eyes and through the lens of Greg Matson and this quick YouTube channel. And so let's jump right into it.

Mormon Newscast: Mormon Church Hires LGBT Ally as

Host [00:02:02] All right, put your seatbelt on. This is an Edge of the Sword episode. The new communications director for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints uses pronouns and supports pride before we.

Guest 3 [00:02:15] All right, so we already know what he's most concerned about. Greg Matson and his followers are most concerned about the fact that Aaron Srinian, you know, uses pronouns and supports pride. So let's go to the next clip. All right.

Aaron Sherinian Made the New Church Communications Director

Host [00:02:34] Welcome to Quick Show. My name is Greg Matson and I am your host. In this episode, Aaron Sherinian has been made the new church communications director. A very interesting background. And we're going to go over that. We're also going to go over messaging, because messaging is a very important thing for the church, I think. And confusion abounds right now everywhere with decisions that are made like this. But there are going to be questions that are brought up by many members there already are. Right. I mean, this topic here is already spreading throughout social media like wildfire. And the messaging is very confusing. You have a message from the brethren at the pulpit talking about defending the doctrine of the family. And then you have a world facing church that is trying to bridge gaps, make friends and help the church move forward globally, throughout the world, especially in the missionary program and then temple work. I'm going to approach this from a faithful perspective because that's the right thing to do. But I think that we really do need to put our seatbelts on because we are going into a world here with the Internet and social media and with the church that is going to bring us through very stormy, stormy weather.

Guest 3 [00:03:54] So as soon as he's talking about stormy, stormy weather, I'm thinking about gathering Storm QAnon. Like these are the types of things that come into my mind. But he seems really concerned. Greg seems really concerned, really fearful. And he, he sort of amps that up a bit by talking about how the mists of darkness are thickening, I think invoking Book of Mormon. So let's tune into that.

Host [00:04:22] We can't put our heads in the sand on these things because they're going to be talked about, they're going to be talked about with our friends, they're going to be talked about with our kids. And if you are not ahead of these things, you're going to be ambushed. We do not live in a time where you can just say, well, I'm going to put my head in the sand and all is well in Zion. We live in a time where you've got to study the scriptures, you got to hang on to the iron rod because the mists of darkness are thickening.

Guest 3 [00:04:49] And what's a little bit difficult for them is that the Mormon scriptures are absolutely silent on LGBTQ issues. But Book of Mormon, doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of great price, say nothing about same sex marriage at all. So that's a problem. But the mists of darkness are thickening. I, I do think it's interesting we can show kind of his YouTube profile, Quick Media, 39.4 thousand subscribers. I think the Mormon Church should be very afraid. And at, you know, as of an hour before this show went live, 42,000 views. So on the one hand he's saying, you know, that everybody's talking about this and that everyone's concerned. Well, he's sure doing his job to amplify the concern, which I think is quite interesting. The other thing that's quite interesting is he says at least twice in this video that in no way should we interpret his comments as checking the church. So let's hear that.

Host [00:05:46] And in this world where information is accessible to everyone, very quickly, you know, me bringing this up and talking about it is not a matter of checking the church or, or church authorities or anything else like that.

Guest 3 [00:06:01] So on the one hand, in no way is he checking the church or his authorities. On the other hand, he's going to now spend the next 15 minutes criticizing the decision that the church, the church makes with this.

Guest 2 [00:06:12] I noticed he couldn't quite keep from smiling when he said that.

Guest 3 [00:06:15] Me or you. He or him. Yeah, like, like how in the world is he not checking the church? All right, so the next clip is all about his concern with the United Nations. And I'll tell you why that's interesting

Trump rips the UN and Zionism

Host [00:06:29] voice is heard today. And yes, love does conquer hate. Ah, love conquers hate. That's what one of the signs say here in this rally. And keep in mind is part of his background is being with the United Nations. Here's another.

Guest 3 [00:06:44] Now, immediately when he's talking about the United nations, what that invokes for me is sort of old school, New World Order conspiracy theory, Ezra Tab Benson, sort of anti communism stuff. And at the end of my little segment, I'm going to actually show that that interpretation I think, has. Has some merit. All right, so let's go ahead and go to the next clip where he talks about his first main concern, United Nations.

Shinian on Gay Marriage and His Support of Pride

Host [00:07:11] Here's another one. This is him supporting Pride, right, in Washington, D.C. he says, I love these kids. I am proud of their pride. Hashtag pride. How grateful we are for examples of allyship and diverse communities who rally for outreach and understanding versus division and hate. And here is where we have to walk that edge of the sword. Of course we want an outreach to all individuals. And if you don't, you're sitting on the wrong side. You want an outreach to the LGBTQ community. That's very important. The question is, is, do you reach out to different groups like this and support what they're doing at the same time? Do you hijack doctrine the fat, the doctrine of the family in order to love and offer tolerance? You might say, well, that's all he's doing is supporting Pride colors here for love and tolerance. Well, again, what do we have here? Here's back from June of 2015. Way to go SCOTUS. Gay marriage now legal across all 50 states. Love is Hashtag love is love, hashtag marriage equality. So does this go along with the doctrine of the family. Does this go along with the family proclamation? Of course it doesn't. And with these things here, these. These screenshots that of his social media that are spreading around social media so quickly today and last night, you've got to know that this type of messaging is going to be out there, and people are going to be very confused.

Guest 3 [00:08:54] I mean, I'm kind of curious to know where this stuff was spreading before he decided to. To spread it. He's saying that he's, you know, that. That this guy Shinian is hijacking the doctrine, but again, he's. He's not in any way checking the church. All right, let's go to the next concern.

Gerardo on Aaron Shirenian's Controversial Posts

Guest 2 [00:09:14] Can I ask you a question?

Guest 3 [00:09:15] Yeah, please.

Guest 2 [00:09:15] I've heard reports that Aaron Sherian has been taking steps to remove these types of somewhat controversial photos or postings of his from the past. Is that true?

Guest 3 [00:09:26] I think Gerardo was struggling to find some of this stuff. But that's. That's one of the questions I ask at the end, is how likely if this stuff is still up there, will it be gone by the end of today? So his next concern is that this guy Shrinion supports trans issues. So let's play that.

Host [00:09:43] Or here. Here's another one. Here you have him on Twitter saying, Chris Mogier. I don't know if that name is right on making history as the first trans member of Team usa. Hashtag trans is beautiful. Again, there's. There's a position of. I'm reaching out to the trans community. We should do that. Sorry. We should. We should love everyone. Christ sat with the sinners. But to support trans ideology. Queer theory is very troublesome to me, and it is a. It is anti gospel. That doesn't mean that you can't love and support an individual as a human being and as a child of God. We've got to be very clear on that. Again, that is walking the edge of the sword. We have to learn to do that in our day and age. But there is a difference between loving someone and compromising doctrine and the commandments of God in order to do so. That's not really love. Another one of his tweets here is transgender rights are human rights. Join us in standing up for trans rights everywhere. I'm sorry, that is trans ideology. And what goes along with that? Well, from a minority standpoint, from a kid's standpoint, it's obviously supporting transitioning. Well, that is completely against church policy. Or trans rights are human rights. Is that men in women's locker rooms because they say they're a woman or men in women's prisons. Well, that's what usually goes along with trans rights. Another one here on Caitlyn Jenner at UN Ways In. He's got a background at the UN Hashtag Caitlyn Jenner's bravery and how to support the entire global trans.

Guest 3 [00:11:28] So he's basically calling Shirenian support of trans people, anti gospel, anti doctrine, anti policy, compromising doctrine. But again, he, he's adamant that he's not checking the brethren, not checking this guy. And then he goes on to talk about his support of marriage equality.

Host [00:11:52] Another one here going back again to 2015 with SCOTUS. Way to go, SCOTUS. Gay marriage now legal across all 50 states. Hashtag love is love. Hash hashtag marriage equality. Well, I don't agree with either of those hashtags. I don't care much about marriage. I'm very libertarian in that way. I don't think the government should be involved in it in any way. But this is obviously support for marriage equality. The question is these pride colors on the White House, which represents the US Are, you know, are we also looking at pride colors on the temples? You know, if, if, if love is love and marriage equality is the desire, equity is the desired outcome here, does that mean pride colors on the temple and gay marriage within the temple? And I'm sorry, but these are questions that everybody is going to have. This is the new communications director for the church. And if you think that the communications department is not going to have a transformation here, a change, I think that's putting your head in the sand. I think that's very naive.

Guest 3 [00:13:02] Again, not checking the church at all with his concerns. And then his final concern is that this guy Shirenian uses pronouns.

Host [00:13:14] Here is his LinkedIn profile. And as you can see here, he has his. Yes, his. Because he's got his pronouns here. He, him. So this is an obvious support of gender ideology and queer theory. And you say, well, Greg, that doesn't mean that everything's going to change within the department or those around them. Come on, look at BYU Hawaii. You've got a president there with radical ideas, surrounding himself with people that share those radical ideas. And that university is changing a lot of changes based on that worldview.

Guest 3 [00:13:54] Now, I'm a little bit out of the loop, but I have no idea what he's talking about there with BYU Hawaii and with his concerns. I'll just, I'll end this series of clips with his final clip where he reminds us that he's, you know, who is he? And is he, you know, he's, he's reminding us that he's not going to check the church, so we'll have his conclusion.

Host [00:14:14] And again, who am I, I mean, who am I to say anything about what the church should be doing or not doing? But I am someone as a member of the church, a tithe paying member of the church, who is incredibly invested in the gospel and in the success of the church, who, when something like this is brought up that is contrary, it's contrary to the message of the pulpit, is going to have a number of questions. And I know that already. I mean, I've gotten, I don't know how many dozens of people contacting me from yesterday with this hire that already are completely confused. You're told to defend the doctrine of the family, and now you've got someone in a high position who supports, or apparently, I mean, these are not my words. I'm just showing you exactly what he has said. Who supports the trans movement, who supports pride and everything that goes along with that. That's not just love and tolerance of different individuals. And so these questions are going to abound in the confusion. The confusion is, is Guy, it's. You can, you can bathe in it.

Guest 3 [00:15:27] So I'll just, I'll just answer his question. Who, who are you? Greg Matson? You're. You're a YouTube social media personality with 40,000 followers who, claiming to not check the church, while you're not only checking the church, but you're spreading your concerns to tens of thousands of believing members. And I think that's something you need to be careful of. That's something that I used to do before I ended up on the other side of 15 men excommunicating me. I'll conclude by just showing you on his actual YouTube community page, he's promoting this new movie called Beneath Sheep's Clothing. And there happens to be a sentence in the description of the movie, quote, our churches are infiltrated by wolves in sheep's clothing. And there's Greg Madsen with the filmmaker, that's basically saying our churches are infiltrated by wolves in sheep's clothing. So I'll end with just a few questions for our panel. You know, is this LDS LGBT confusion new, or is it the same old, same old LDS LGBTQ confusion that we've been experienced for experiencing for 20 years? Will Aaron Cherinian social media be scrubbed after this episode? Will he keep his job? How long will he last? Is the LDS church realistically risking a schism here with sort of the restore. Terrell and Fiona Givens, Richard Bushman, Patrick Mason, Mormons on the left, and these quick prepper MAGA Mormons on the right. And then finally, is Greg Matson on a slippery slope towards apostasy. Panel, take it away.

Wonders in Sheep's Clothing: Greg Matson and the

Greg Matson on the LDS LGBT Confusion

Guest 2 [00:17:02] Okay. The first thing I want to say is, by the way, I think Matson has two T's in it. Not positive. There's the picture. You see, Greg Manson's fear has come to. To pass. We've got the. The rainbow colors on the temple. It looks very pretty from this perspective. Did you get. You did that, didn't you, Bill?

Guest [00:17:23] That was AI Art. Yes, I. I did that today on Mid Journey.

Guest 3 [00:17:27] I love it.

Guest 2 [00:17:28] But my question for Greg Matson with two T's or not is where does he think the new communications director, the head guy basically of the PR department, where does he think he comes from? Do you think he just sort of walks in off the street and says, hey, I just thought I'd take this job, so let's get going? Does he think that the church leaders have nothing to do with selecting this individual? That's my question. And how can he possibly say with a straight face, and he didn't the first time he said it, that he's not checking the church when all he's doing is checking the church? He's creating this mythical space between the church leaders and the people who work for them. So there's some sort of rogue person in the church who's doing the hiring and firing without the knowledge of the top leadership.

Guest 3 [00:18:15] Correction.

Host [00:18:15] Oh, sorry.

Guest 2 [00:18:16] What?

Guest 3 [00:18:16] It says that that photo wasn't of the filmmaker. It's Dr. James Lindsay, speaker and philosopher. Thank you, Troy, for being my fact checker. Okay, keep going. Panel.

Guest 2 [00:18:26] Yeah. Rebecca, your thoughts?

Guest 4 [00:18:27] Yeah. Well, that would be the shadow government inside the church, right, that we've heard so much about. No, I'm being facetious there, but some people do believe that. And, you know, I. So Eric Hawkins was the original church spokesman for a long time. He actually had some health problems that made him step back. Doug Anderson took over. We saw him quoted in Vice News. Caused a lot of confusion because people were like, where's Eric Hawkins? Right. So I saw this job description posted a couple months ago, I think. So I know the church did do their due diligence in choosing the new spokesman. And as I read through his profile, and when they announced it, I thought, well, this. This seems like a rather progressive person. I had not come across this social media yet, but I thought, this is very hopeful. He seems like he's worked internationally. Seems like he has a lot of experience. He's not just maybe a good old boy. So I was hopeful about that. And. And I did not see any of this social media until I saw it on Greg Matson's program. And then I started kind of to dive in. And I can understand Greg's conf, because a few years ago, we had the musket talk, which was a very different tone, and now we have someone who is openly an ally, which is an amazing and wonderful thing. But I also understand Greg Matson's concern, because as we all know, there are two sides to the church right now. The progressive restore. As John had that nice question, and we have the more orthodox. And usually the church tries to stay out of it. They don't do anything that will ally themselves with either side or, well, here they've done something. My theory perhaps is they didn't know about his social media presence. I would not rule that out. And then we'll have to see how they rectify this, because by dialing it back, that also makes a statement. So we're going to be watching this very closely.

Guest 2 [00:20:12] Yes, they've managed to outrage their base and more and more so as more and more people listen to Greg Matson's show. Thank you, Greg. And he's not the only person who's podcasting about this from the same point of view. I saw another one earlier today, and that other person, whose name I don't remember, I'm sorry, had mentioned that they're already starting to scrub these images and posts from the Internet and that he had grabbed some and saved them. So I don't know if that's true, but I'm passing along that report, for what it's worth. Bill, your thoughts?

Guest [00:20:42] Yeah. So, first off, the new spokesman doesn't seem to just be an ally. Seems to be a bold ally, number one. Number two is Greg Matson used the phrase we need to love everyone, but everything that came out of his mouth sounded very homophobic and transphobic. It was almost like, hey, we do need to be kind, but damn it, let's not be accepting of any of these people. And that sticks out certainly like a sore thumb. If the church knowingly put this person in place as their head spokesperson, it would seem to signal to me that the church has, on some level, shifted the direction it wants to go in, in the sort of tone and approach it wants to have with the LGBT community.

Guest 2 [00:21:32] Yeah, My take on that is there are two options. Either they didn't know his background which would be gross negligence on their part if they hired somebody without doing a background check for this position, for crying out loud. However, it's not inconceivable given the church's track record of making boneheaded decisions. But if indeed they pick this individual, Aaron Sherinian, for this job, knowing his background, then my take on it is it's not a shift in anything. All they're trying to do is a PR ploy for the public. That's all it is. It's not going to change anything that they do on a day to day basis within the church. Now the problem that they run into and that they run into before is that when you speak with one voice to the public and another voice to the membership, the membership hears the messages that you're giving to the public. And that's what causes this confusion. I agree with you. Greg Matson and everybody in his position. Me, 20 years ago I would have been going, what the heck are you doing? I mean, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Church. I hear what you say to us on a every Sunday. I hear what you say to us in general conference. And now you're saying this, what on earth? And that's why people are shaking their heads and wondering who is running this organization. Any final thoughts, Dr. Dint?

Greg Matson on the Church and His Controversy

Guest 3 [00:22:50] No, I just think it'll be, you know, it'll be fun to see how this develops in the weeks, months and years ahead. I wonder how long this guy's going

Guest 2 [00:22:56] to keep his job and they've hired him. If they fire him, then they're going to be in a world of hurt. They've once again managed to shoot themselves in the foot. Yeah, they put themselves in a bad spot. They painted themselves into yet another corner. They are running out of feet to shoot themselves in.

Guest 3 [00:23:12] And I just have to wonder if Greg Matson's at risk of discipline at some point because this. How is this any different than the stuff that got me excommunicated just kind of. Or me and Bill excommunicated just from the other side of criticizing the brethren, right?

Guest 2 [00:23:28] Yes, but he's saying he's not. So hopefully they'll just stop listening after the first three minutes and then not listen to anything else.

Guest 3 [00:23:34] Got it.

Guest 2 [00:23:35] All right, thank you very much for that report, Dr. Delin.

Guest 3 [00:23:38] My pleasure.

Guest 2 [00:23:38] Now, Rebecca Bibliotheca has our next story and it involves beer.

Guest 4 [00:23:45] It does involve beer. And it also, it ties in very nicely because Greg Matson talked about confusion. This story is also about confusion. The church is Worried there may be some confusion. So let's go to our first slide and I'll take you through this and then we will talk about it.

Deseret IPA: A Utah Beer

Guest 3 [00:24:00] All right, there we go.

Guest 4 [00:24:02] Perfect. So this story has been gathering national attention in the past week. It's about a wonderful brewing company called Bewilder Brewing. Now, they have been around since 2019. They opened right before COVID And of course, that's a terrible time to open a business. This is in Salt Lake. And so to kind of push themselves through, they developed a wonderful craft in house beer called. Let's go to our next slide, Deseret ipa. So what they said is with Deseret ipa, we wanted to make a beer for our local breweries owned by local people that had a local tie in. They used local honey and locally grown grain and the beer was malted locally. This is from the Salt Lake Tribune. Now, I talked to one of the owners, Cody, because I'm in the Salt Lake area, and he talked about creating this beer as sort of an advertisement and as a paying homage to Salt Lake Lake. It's local honey, local grain, locally malted. He wanted people to come visit his brewery and try Deseret IPA and learn more about Utah. So very lovingly crafted and an extremely popular IPA, award winning. And they've been brewing this since about 2020. They have not trademarked it yet or tried until this past fall. And I think you know what's going to happen next. Let's go to the next slide. So I will say that the word deseret, for those of, of our viewers and listeners that don't know, is a word from the Book of Mormon that supposedly means honeybee, as we read in ether. And they did also carry with them deseret, which by interpretation is a honeybee. And thus they did carry with them swarms of bees. That's a picture AI of a Jaredite barge, a wooden barge underwater with bees. I love AI, just like Bill. Let's go to our next slide. So the word deseret is from, from the Book of Mormon. And also at one point they tried to name the state Deseret, but the federal government said, no, that's not going to fly. That's a made up Mormon word. So instead we have the wonderful Utah. So as they tried to go through the trademark process and they were spending money doing this, suddenly in November, a letter arrived. And according to the Tribune, it says in October, the brewery received a letter from Tyson Smith, an attorney at Texas based Perky Barber. The letter said Bewilder's Use of the word deseret could cause people to mistakenly believe that the brewery's beer is affiliated with such LDS church owned companies as Deseret Book, the Deseret News, Deseret Industries and others. So here we are with that confusion. They're worried that somebody might confuse this offering of Deseret beer coming from one of these other entities that the church owns. Let's go to our next slide. So the terms of the letter were the brewery is given a few months to cease production of Deseret IPA and sell its remaining store of beer. It also must not pursue registering the name with the US Patent and Trademark Office. So they talked about it not very long. Cody said, because they know what they're up against, right? They're up against a billion billion dollar corporation with an entire stable of lawyers. So they just said, no, not going to do it. We will abide by the terms and we're going to discontinue this. They put out an announcement just a week ago in their newsletter that they sent to their customers because they're a popular brewery, this beer is very popular. And they told their customers Deseret IPA will be phased out and replaced with another product. Unfortunately, a large tax exempt, tax based entity wasn't pleased with our use of the word deseret. We have been asked to drop our trademark and discontinue the brand. So once they put this out in their newsletter, of course everybody started getting wind of this and actually getting very upset for them. Now, I will tell you that Cody and his partner Ross, they're wonderful. They have no animosity to the church. They're just gonna move on. They're going to create other IPAs. They may eventually reissue this with a different name. And that can be a lot of fun as all of us try to guess what might that name be or make suggestions. I think I have one or two more slides as we go on with the story. But I just wanted to make sure everybody knows that Cody and Ross and Bewilder Brewery, they're just wonderful people and it's a wonderful establishment. They also said in their newsletter their members talking about the church would never think that the LDS Church would be putting out a beer. McKendrick, that's Cody, who I spoke with so said, although he noted the church owned all the alcohol production in the state at one point. And this is a rabbit hole that you can go down if you'd like to. But yes, a very robust history of producing and selling alcohol. Saloons, distilleries, it's all there in Utah's past, which is what makes this such an ironic thing to happen. So if we can go to our next slide, I started to wonder, is there confusion? Is there any other business in Utah that uses the name Deseret? So I went onto the Utah.gov site and I searched and I found that there were 618 businesses found in my search for the word deseret. Now, some of these had expired, but they. And some were active. But over the past couple years, 618 and I found they ran the gamut. Deseret Cleaners, Deseret Armory and Firearms. Deseret Massage. Deseret Insurance, Deseret lawyers. If you go to the next slide, I just pulled a few, a few of the logos that popped up right away. Everyone is using the word deseret because, you know, it's a word in Utah that kind of means trustworthy.

A Utah Brewery Has Been Asked to Drop the Deseret IPA

Are 618 Utah Business Using the Word Deseret?

Guest [00:29:50] Right.

Guest 4 [00:29:50] We are Deseret. Everyone's very familiar with that word. Deseret Marketing Group, Deseret First Credit, Deseret Food Store. I would think that would be very confusing because of the church's stance on food storage. People might think, oh, the church backs this company. So the bottom line is many, many other companies use this term, Deseret. My favorite one that I found, and I think that's almost our last slide. Second to Deseret Wellness, Utah's premier medical marijuana pharmacy. And this is in Park City. Now, I have since learned that it has been bought out by another company. But if you search this, this is still there. You can still get to it through Deseret Wellness. And then it'll, it'll guide you to the new company that's purchased it. So, and I think this was fairly recently. So again, I question, and I'll, I question why. And I'll hold this up, this little brewery. And it's wonderful. Deseret IPA is something that's being targeted in this way. And I think we have one final slide. I wanted to let everybody know that it is their fourth anniversary this week. There's a picture of myself and my Mormonish podcast co host with the owner, Cody. It's a wonderful place. And, you know, as I said, the owners are not upset, but I told them a lot of other people are upset for you. And they've had many lawyers reach out to them, say, do you want us to help you fight this? And, and their stance is we've got kids at, we have other things to do. We have our life to live. So they're not going to do anything. They are just going to continue to produce great beer, have a great establishment, but I think the rest of us are a little, should I say, cranky about it. John, what do you think about this story? It really is gaining national attention.

Bewilder Brewing Company Celebrates Their 4th Anniversary

Guest 3 [00:31:30] I think we should have a Mormon newscast live episode and do it from the brewery as a way to sort of just like do it, do it from. What's the name of the brewery again?

Guest 4 [00:31:44] Bewilder Brewing Company. It's a beautiful establishment.

Guest 3 [00:31:48] So my comment is all viewers and listeners in Utah, go, go to Bewilder Brewing Company. Eat their food, drink their beverages, show them support, make them super wealthy and let's have a live event from their premises. That's my comment.

Guest 4 [00:32:03] Yep, let's do it. Rfm, what do you think?

Guest 2 [00:32:05] Well, you know, you went over that Deseret means swarm of bees. And it just struck me that they had a swarm of bees on these barges. And the thought came to me just when you thought a year long transoceanic submarine ride couldn't get any worse.

Guest 4 [00:32:23] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:32:24] Bill, what do you think?

Guest 4 [00:32:25] Very true.

Guest [00:32:26] I, I hope they tell people what they changed the name to because then I think what you'll end up with is a bunch of post Mormons across the state of Utah ordering at least one of those to salute them for the, for the hassle that they went through. It does seem strange to me that the Church fights so hard on these words that are Mormon generally. The word Mormon, for instance, or Deseret, which the church is only one faction of Mormonism, the LDS churches. And it seems strange to me that they have fought really hard to own the rights to these names they've come to. I'm sure, John, but I know they've come to me in the past and said that we need disclaimers on all of our websites regarding the word Mormon. So for instance, Mormon discussion or Radio Free Mormon. The Church is really picky about its intellectual property and it seems to place under its umbrella names that all words that all Mormons are using and juxtaposing

Guest 2 [00:33:21] two of these stories, here they are expending capital trying to put the boot on the throat of these people at Bewilder Brewing Brewery over the name Deseret. Right, because it's going to cause confusion because maybe people would be confused with this other Deseret beer that the Church is actually producing. I mean, there's no likelihood of any kind of confusion. That's ridiculous. That's a bad argument that they're making. And they're just counting on the people at Bewilder Brewing Brewery. Excuse me. Caving. That's not exactly an easy thing to say. Bewilderment Brewing Brewery.

Guest 4 [00:33:57] Yeah, it is hard to say, but speaking of names, I will say on my podcast, Mormonish Podcast, we did an episode, a little link, more on this, and it's kind of fun to imagine what new name Mormons love new names they might pick when they reissue it. We came up with things like Nephi's Nectar, Lehi's Lager. My favorite one my co host made up was the Hosanna Stout, and it does come with a hanky. So I think it'd be fun in the chat while you guys are listening, if you can come up with some of your own names.

Guest 3 [00:34:25] Well, let's not forget some of the existing beverage names. There's Five Wives Vodka. Of course, there's Polygamy Porter, and of course, my personal favorite. Drum roll, please. Pele Ale.

Guest 2 [00:34:40] Those are all great.

Guest 4 [00:34:41] Next. They may be in danger. I don't know.

Guest [00:34:44] I'm hoping to get to that Deseret massage and get a celestial ending.

Guest 2 [00:34:49] So I know that was one of the things I was surprised to see that the church has not taken action against was a company called Deseret Adult Movie Theaters.

Host [00:34:58] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:35:00] So apparently everybody's okay except for the Bewildered Brewery.

Guest 4 [00:35:04] Apparently so. And this is still available. You can find this. It's getting more and more rare, but you can check with your local liquor store to see if they have some. And they have a few cases left at the brewery, so.

Guest 2 [00:35:16] Okay. Really good. Yeah. Buy out all their stock and then buy whatever else they're going to replace it with. Are we up to my story now?

Guest 3 [00:35:23] I think it's Bill's.

Guest 2 [00:35:25] Oh, it's Bills. That's right. I'm sorry, I'm trying to horn in on Bill's action. Bill, your story, please.

Guest [00:35:30] Yeah, let's play it. Respected LDS scholar Grant Hardy's recent publishing and publicizing of the annotated Book of Mormon has ignited discussions dealing with appraising the value of. Of the Book of Mormon as a sacred text worth one's life and devotion. And Hardy acknowledges a few problems along the way. For example, he says, quote, we're embarrassed by the lack of evidence for its historicity, by the racism in the absence of women, and about how it uses the King James Bible, particularly the New Testament. There are things in the Book of Mormon that are problematic, and I don't think we should skip over those. Nephi had attitudes that we would regard as racist today. Apparently, even prophets do not always live up to their ideals or to their revelations, unquote. But he returns to the perspective that in spite of its flaws and limitations, the Book of Mormon is worthy of one's devotion. He goes so far as to say, quote, but the book is amazingly coherent and consistent, and just because it is the word of God doesn't mean it's God's last word on everything. We can read the Book of Mormon seriously and with gratitude, and we can still be critical of it. We can say this detail doesn't seem to fit in with what we know of the gospel as a whole, unquote. But it's a tall order of business to walk the proverbial line where on one hand people are encouraged to take seriously a religious text and devote their life to allowing it to occupy their time and their mind and to base their life on its teachings, while on the other hand dealing directly with the facts that run counter to its historicity, such as Hardy's mention of racism, the New Testament material in the Book of Mormon that shouldn't be there, the lack of archaeological or linguistic evidence for its historicity, and it's even more of an uphill battle to encourage those same readers to let go of their level of trust in the book's values, its morality, and its theology, sensing that the book could be, and in fact is wrong at several important moments, leading the reader to see Nephi as a racist or Mormon as shaming sexual assault victims, leading believers and non believers on a quest to both value the Book of Mormon as a sacred text while also giving them permission to lose trust in its claims and its ability to discern God's voice is a tight wire act that almost no religious text has survived. Ultimately, the question I have for readers of the Book of Mormon to consider is whether, in light of the facts, dedicating time to a 19th century text is truly the best use of their resources in navigating life's complexities, or whether you would be truly better off with a book like the Five Agreements or whatever is the latest from Bernay Brown. Back to you rfm.

Proclaiming the Book of Mormon as a Sacred Text

Guest 2 [00:38:52] Thank you Bill. I am struck by the comment that he made something along the lines of places in the Book of Mormon where things are said that are not consistent with what we know of the gospel. And the question that immediately came to my mind was this. How are we knowing anything about the gospel if it's contradicted by the doctrine in the Foundation Scripture of Mormonism? Your thoughts, Bill?

Book of Mormon scholar Grant Hardy on the book

Guest [00:39:18] Yeah, I think that's the crux of it. I think Grant Hardy, who is A respected scholar believing at least portrays himself as a believing Latter Day Saint. And he seems to want to deal with the Book of Mormon in a. In a factual, kind of transparent sort of way. But if you play the. As I pointed out in the video video, if you play these two sides, where on one hand you say this book is inspiring, you should use it for your. To find meaning in your life and in your daily worship, in your spiritual path. And the book may not be historical. There are lots of problems. And number two, there are lots of teachings in the book that I would suggest maybe aren't the best, maybe are even flat out wrong. Very few texts. An example would be the Bhagavad Gita. We all understand it's a. It's an old sacred text, but at the same time, people are going to be reluctant to use that in their daily spiritual path. They might have it on the shelf, they might pull it down once a year and look at it. But to study it on the daily and give their loyalty and obedience to it, when you know that it's fiction, when you know that it is a myth. I think very few people are going to do that. And I think Grant Hardy, in the end, may cause more damage than he thinks he's doing.

Grant Hardy's Book of Mormon Annotation

Guest 2 [00:40:36] Before I hand this over to Rebecca for her thoughts, I just wanted to note that I do have another of Grant Hardy's works. It's the Book of Mormon, a reader's edition. I actually did read this and I used it to teach, I think, because I go through this and it's all marked up and it looks like my handwriting, so I guess I went through it. He also had a book before this which was an introduction to the Book of Mormon. One of the best, if not the best books I've ever read about the Book of Mormon. One of the few books in my life that I've read twice. And of course it wasn't as good the second time, but still, it's amazing what he does. And he does demonstrate, I think inclusively, that the Book of Mormon is a complex text that should be respected and not denigrated. However, that's how he wants to focus it is as a literary text. He doesn't get into the apologetics of going to. Trying to prove it's true, but he looks at what it says about. What it says about. Okay. And that itself is a very interesting avenue and I respect him very much for that. I do want to mention that he, Grant Hardy, gives credit, and lots of credit to his wife, who's a Real pistol and came up with probably the majority of the good ideas in his original book. So I just want to put that out there. Rebecca, your thoughts about this story?

Guest 4 [00:41:54] Yeah, I think it's very interesting and I can appreciate the Book of Mormon as a literary text. I think we can all read it that way. But then there's that pesky little issue that it really does have to be historical on so many levels. And that's another rabbit hole we don't need to discuss here. But I am curious to look through it because I am curious about the annotations. For example, when you annotate, when you annotate something like the Bible, you're looking at authenticated writings in the annotations. You're looking at historical, historical facts. When you look at annotating the Book of Mormon, I'm just curious on what they will rely on. Will it be something, and this is very simplistic, but will it be something like if you were to annotate Harry Potter and your annotation would be London, it's a city in, you know, and therefore, because it exists, this book is true or has merit. Do you see what I mean? I'm just curious about will it almost be a chicken and an egg scenario. Is the book true in the annotation? Because it's says it's true in the book. It'll be really interesting to read that. And again, that's a very simplistic way to look at it. But those are my questions, having not studied it yet.

Guest 2 [00:42:58] It's a good question based upon what I've read of Grant Hardy before. He completely and openly sidesteps the issue of truth claims and looks at it simply as a text. So I think that's his answer to that and it's probably a wise move on his part. He's certainly able to get to a lot more interesting material without by avoiding that entire morass. Dr. Delin, your thoughts on this story?

Guest 3 [00:43:21] Yeah, I'll say. I. I've had Grant and I believe his wife's name is Heather Hardy on Mormon stories. They're delightful people, really smart, really kind, very progressive. I would guess they fit very well in the Terrell Givens, Terrell and Fiona Givens, Richard Bushman, Patrick Mason restore type of Mormonism that we referred to earlier. I feel really bad that all these progressive Mormons have to apologize and you know, work, work around a book like the Book of Mormon that's not only fundamentally racist, sexist, homophobic, misogynistic and not historical, but it was written by it was authored by someone that we can all kind of universally acknowledge as being a sexual predator. That's super tough.

Guest 2 [00:44:08] And.

Guest 3 [00:44:08] And I feel bad on the one hand that they have to try and put lipstick on that pig, so to speak. And I know these are harsh words, but this is just the reality that we're all swimming in in 2024. On the other hand, I'm reminded of my interview with, you know, either David BACAVOY or Dan McClelland. And this is what it means to have scripture. As I Talked to Dan McClellan, I was trying to get him to say that the Bible is somehow more historical than the Book of Mormon. And he wouldn't really give an inch on that. He's like, the Bible, the New Testament, the Old Testament is no more historical than the Book of Mormon. It's all myth. It's all, you know, fable. None of it's historical or historically legitimate. A lot of it's plagiarism. And so it's just. But I guess I'll end just by saying that, you know, maybe we've all been sold a bill of goods in the sense that many sophisticated religionists never considered scripture to be historical or truth from the beginning. It's all about the fable. It's all about the moral lesson. And we shouldn't look to our scriptures even to be totally moral or ethical or historical. It's like bedtime stories that'll help us live better lives. And I bet that's where Mason and Givens and, and, and Hardy would, would conclude is, what moral value can we draw from otherwise? A pig with lipstick on it.

Guest 2 [00:45:39] Right? Well, you mentioned it helps us lead better lives. I think the story of Nephi murdering Laban has led some to end better lives.

Guest 3 [00:45:50] Don't forget Ammon.

Guest 2 [00:45:52] Yeah, he doesn't usually get used as a justification for murder or couples ruses or whatever it is that you want to do that you know, you shouldn't. Yeah. I'm looking at you, Tim Ballard.

Guest 3 [00:46:05] It's a tough book.

Guest [00:46:06] Can I just say here, wrapping up rfm, There are a lot of books in the world, and there's a lot of books that one could spend their time using to grow and develop and to. To be a better human being. And once you understand what the Book of Mormon is, it probably doesn't make the top thousand books that you should spend your life energy on.

Guest 3 [00:46:27] Read Joseph Steinbeck. Right? Read Shakespeare.

Guest 2 [00:46:30] Joseph Steinbeck, absolutely. Read. I can never find Joseph Steinbeck.

Guest 3 [00:46:34] Did I get Jonathan Steinbeck? What did I say?

Guest 2 [00:46:36] Oh, yeah, that's the guy I can find. This is one you might. Yes, absolutely.

Guest 3 [00:46:43] Oh, my gosh, I'm so embarrassed.

Guest 2 [00:46:44] It's okay. It happens.

Guest 3 [00:46:47] Rita Cartole, right?

Guest 2 [00:46:48] Yeah. And Fred Hemingway. He was a heck of a writer, too.

Guest 4 [00:46:51] Harry Potter.

Prosecutor: Chad Daybell's Attorney Files to withdraw from the

Guest 2 [00:46:54] All right, now, are we ready for the final story tonight, which is mine. We'll need a slide for this.

Guest 3 [00:47:01] Take it away, rfm.

Guest 2 [00:47:02] I will, thank you. So we got a couple stories. Legally related. Chad Daybell's attorney files to withdraw from the case due to lack of funds. This is a story by Michael Hauck from KSL TV.com reporting from Fremont County, Idaho. The date of that story was January 14th, 2024, I. E. Yesterday. Here's a picture of Chad Daybell and his current attorney, the one who has moved to withdraw. And this picture taken from October 29, 2020. So he's been on this case for over three years now, and I'm guessing that he has pretty much sucked dry every spare penny that Chad Day Bell or anybody who supports him could pay. So now he wants to withdraw and I'm sure have a public defender. Actually, they want to have two public defenders, both death qualified, appointed by the judge to represent Chad. Next slide, please. From the story, Mr. Daybell does not have the ability to pay for counsel's continued services. And Mr. Daybell seeks the appointment of two capital qualified attorneys to present him in this matter. The motion stated. Okay, quick comment. Death penalty qualified attorneys, that's a special designation in the state where I practice. If you're a member of the bar, you can do any kind of. You can do any crime you want is actually what I was going to say. And you can also defend any crime that a client is accused of committing that you want. Except if it's a death penalty, then you have to be death penalty quality qualified, which generally means you have to have sat on and defended a death penalty case once in the past, raising the question, how do you ever get qualified if you have to do one first? Well, usually what happens is there's another attorney who's not death penalty qualified who's assisting the death qualified attorney in the case. And that's one of the main components of how you become death qualified or death penalty qualified as an attorney. So that's what they're asking for in this case. Next slide, please. Oh, yeah. This is also called a green motion. Okay? This is a green motion. Every attorney knows what a green motion is. You don't say it that way to the judge, but you say it amongst the other attorneys. The green motion is. Is that Mr. Green hasn't gotten here. And so now I have to withdraw from the case on account of Mr. Green never showed up. Next slide, please.

Guest 3 [00:49:29] Meaning Chad's not paying. Paying his bills.

Guest 2 [00:49:33] Right, Right. He's been sucked dry.

Guest 3 [00:49:35] Okay. All right.

Guest 2 [00:49:37] And now, this reminds me. When I started practicing in private practice criminal defense, 26 years ago, a. A judge came up to me, took me aside and gave me some wisdom, and he imparted to me the three rules of being. This is the slide. No, no, back to the slide, please. Who's in charge of this man? If I were running these slides, this wouldn't be happening. So the three rules of being a private criminal defense lawyer. Okay? This is what he told me. Number one, get the money up front. Okay? Why is that important? The reason it's important is in a criminal case, once you enter your notice of appearance, you are in, all right? You can't just back out because you don't have enough money. This is one way in which criminal law is very different from civil law. In civil law, if you want to get out of a case because you're not representing this client anymore, they're not paying you, you file a notice of intent to withdraw. It's got like, 10 days. If nobody objects, it becomes good. You don't have to have a specific order from the judge or a hearing and ask the judge for this. In a criminal case, you can't just back out or file a notice of intent to withdraw. You have to file a motion to withdraw, which is what this attorney has done here. And you have to schedule it for a hearing and have it heard and ruled on by the judge. So you get the money up front. Because once you're in, you need to make sure that you're not going to end up in the position that this attorney is in. Of course, it's over three years later, and God only knows how much money he's gotten so far. I'm betting it's a tidy sum. And it's in six figures. And I don't mean the low six figures either. It could even be seven figures by now. Okay, so what this judge said, get the money up front. That's rule number two. Rule number two. Rule number one. Rule number two is, at the end of the case, make sure your client is the one going to jail. All right? I hope everybody understands what the heck that means. What it means is there's nothing that you should be doing for your client that would break the law, break the rules and canons of ethics, okay? You do everything you can ethically to represent your client, but you don't go over that line. Some lawyers have. I'm not one of them. But if you do that, then you can go to jail. So that's why rule number two is at the end of the case, make sure your client is the one going to jail. And number three is get the money up front.

Guest 3 [00:52:07] That sounds a lot like rule number one.

Guest 2 [00:52:09] That's because it's so important. And believe me, I have broken that rule too often, you know, and live to regret it in most cases. All right, so can we go to the next slide, please? This again from the story in the motion. Prior. That's the name of the attorney. Prior said Daybell's case is extraordinarily complex. And since the prosecution is seeking the death penalty, Daybell requires counsel to prepare for two trials. Let me break that down for a second. The reason it says two trials is because when there's a death penalty case, if you are found guilty at the regular trial, then there's a second proceeding, and that is the death penalty phase of the trial, where now you're going to go into the individual's background, and the defense attorney is going to try and present all the reasons why the jury should not vote that he be executed. Okay? So just because the jury says, yeah, we find him guilty of murder in the first degree, doesn't immediately mean that he's going to get the death penalty. There is a process and a second trial that's held with the same jury, and then it goes into the second phase. Now, the fact that Mr. Pryor is saying that he's going to require counsel to prepare for two trials, it doesn't sound like he's really optimistic about winning the first trial. And it goes on to state in the motion, because if he's found not guilty, then you get. Don't get to the penalty phase. Reflecting this complexity and the work required to prepare and try this case, this court has set aside two full months for a trial. And the prosecution team consists of no less than five attorneys from two county offices, including an out of state attorney hired a taxpayer expense. So I expect that Mr. Pryor is putting this in there in order to justify the motion to have two death penalty qualified attorneys appointed in his place. Those would come from the public defender's office, or if there's some private attorney who's willing to do it for public defender rates, then they could be appointed as well. Apparently, Mr. Pryor is not, and I can understand why. Next slide, please. Why two Trials? I think I already answered that. What's the next thing say? Ah, that's why. That's the death penalty phase. Okay. And that's what's on the table in the second trial. He's already been found guilty. The only issue isn't guilt. The only issue is whether the death penalty should be imposed. If the jury cannot decide that or decides against it, then it becomes automatically a life sentence. Next slide, please. What does it mean if the motion to withdraw is granted? Number one, the case is not dismissed. Chad Daybell doesn't walk. Otherwise, I'd have all my clients, you know, doing motions to withdraw. Number two, at least one new death qualified attorney will be appointed. They're asking for two, but at least one has to be appointed if it's granted the motion. Number three, new attorneys will have to go back to square one to familiarize themselves with this massive and complex case. And number four, that will cause a giant delay in the proceedings. Next slide, please. The second story that has to do with.

Daybell requires counsel to prepare for 2 trials

What Does It Mean If the Motion to Abdicate Is Granted?

Tim Ballard on Chad Daybell's Case

Guest 3 [00:55:26] Wait, wait, wait. Can I ask a question about that? Rfm?

Guest 2 [00:55:28] Yes.

Guest 3 [00:55:29] So what attorney is going to take that case? If. If Chad Day Bill's run out of money, this would.

Guest 2 [00:55:36] It would have to be come from the public defender's office.

Guest 3 [00:55:38] Public defender. So he's. That's. They're going to take over the case.

Guest 2 [00:55:42] If the judge grants the motion, then, yeah, it'll be punted to the public defender's office, who then will have the obligation to find an attorney to represent Chad Daybell that fits whatever it is the court orders them to do.

Guest 3 [00:55:55] Before we jump on to Tim Ballard, I'll just say, as a matter of curiosity, John Pryor once called me. So Chad Dabell's attorney called me and invited me to testify as a special witness on behalf of Chad Dabel. And he basically wanted me to testify that. That Chad Daybell and Lori Vala were operating sort of very much influenced or informed by Mormon doctrine and theology. So I called RFM and I said, rfm, should I testify on behalf of. Be a special. Special witness on behalf of Chad Daybell? Do you remember your answer? Rfm?

Guest 2 [00:56:30] I think it was not only no, but F no, it was F no.

Guest 3 [00:56:37] So I didn't. So I turned down that opportunity. Thanks, rfm.

Guest 2 [00:56:41] Well, then you threw it to me and said, hey, would you be interested in your job?

Guest 3 [00:56:45] And you also double F no.

Guest 2 [00:56:47] Yeah, exactly.

Guest 3 [00:56:49] All right, I had to share that.

Tim Ballard Faces Four New Criminal Sexual Assault Complaints in California

Guest 2 [00:56:51] Okay, so now for the short story on Tim Ballard. Update. Tim Ballard faces four new criminal sexual assault complaints in California. Attorney Says this is from the Salt Lake Tribune article By Robert Gerke, January 13 Updated yesterday, January 14, 2024. Next slide, please. Celeste Boris, one of the women suing Tim Ballard, flew to California with her lawyer last week to file criminal complaints alleging the founder of Operation Underground Railroad sexually assaulted her in four jurisdictions. According to her attorney, Boris, who I think is Boris, is it? Boris, who was Ballard's executive assistant from March 2023 until last fall. Fall, which means like six months, previously filed a criminal complaint with the Linden Police Department in Utah County. Now, I want to stress that these are criminal complaints now being talked about as opposed to civil cases. She now has also reported assaults to police departments in San Diego, San Clemente, the San Jose suburb of Campbell, and to Los Angeles Airport. Police for's attorney, Suzette Rasmussen told the Salt Lake Tribune. Okay, so here's what's going on. This is a minor story at present because every day police departments get lots of criminal complaints from people. I mean, if something happens, if it's not an emergency or, you know, if you get pulled over, dui, the police are right there. But a lot of cases don't happen with police response, and people have to go in and report a crime. So that's what she was doing to these four different agencies in California, in the different jurisdictions where she's alleging that she was assaulted, I believe sexually assaulted. And now it's up to the police and those agencies to do whatever investigation they see fit and then to refer it over to the prosecutor's office for filing of charges of whatever the prosecutor believes the evidence can prove beyond a reasonable doubt. So this is very initial, it's very preliminary, but it's very essential. These kind of complaints have to be filed before any charges are going to be filed of a criminal nature. So we'll see what happens and whether any criminal charges are filed from any or all of these four California jurisdictions in the future. Your thoughts about this, Bill, what do you think?

Guest [00:59:15] Well, going back to the Chad Dabel case and, you know, the idea of being asked to speak, I mean, there is some truth to the fact that Mormonism sets itself up in a way that people can take sometimes really unhealthy things from it, that they're talking to God, that that God has a, has a special mission for them, that they're doing God's will. And unhealthy, you know, religious dogma that doesn't allow a lot of questioning is often going to lead to those kinds of things. At least every year, you know, every now and then it's two sad stories. Tim. Tim set himself up in a way that he's fallen. And Chad Daybell and Lori Daybell. That whole thing, just a horrifically sad story.

Guest 3 [01:00:09] You're muted, my brother. R.

Guest 2 [01:00:13] Then we'll skip you and we'll go. Right. No, your thoughts, Doctor. To Lynn. That's what I said when I was muted.

Guest 3 [01:00:19] Just. Just that, you know, what do Lori Debel and. And Tim Ballard and. And, sorry. Lori Valo, Chad Dabell, Tim Ballard, Ruby Frankie, Jody Hildebrandt. What do they all have in common? They all read Visions of Glory by Tom Harrison. They all believe in the Book of Mormon and in Mormon doctrine and in End times eschatology and in spirits. And, you know, there's a common thread between all these things. It's Mormon doctrine and theology that can lead to toxic and sometimes deadly results. And the Brethren could fix all of this by clamping down on Mormon preparism, on Mormon End Times stuff, on Visions of Glory, on Tom Harrison. And the Brethren choose not to do it. In fact, I was told that Tom Harrison is spoke at a sacrament meeting in Salt Lake just this weekend as like a special guest. So the Brethren just don't want to clean this up. Probably because they don't want to see a huge schism in the Church and

Guest 2 [01:01:19] their lack of action against Tom Harrison. T H O M and Visions of Glory and all the harm that he has and continues to proliferate through his speeches, his lessons and his book is another story that should be put alongside this Deseret IPA story so you can see what it is the Church is concerned about and takes action on and what it doesn't. Rebecca, your thoughts?

Guest 4 [01:01:45] Yeah, and I will say that just last week a family member of mine was offered that book, Visions of Glory, from a friend who said, this is incredible. You have to read this. So while the ex Mormon and post Mormon and perhaps nuanced Mormon world is very aware of the dangers of this book, it is still being passed around and purchased as if it is a wonderful thing to read and alluding to the idea that the Church is behind it. And you know, I feel when I think about, like you said, Lori Valo, Chad Dabell, Tim. Gosh, I got all the names mixed up, didn't I? You know who I'm talking about. The point is, how do they feel now when they're alone in their jail cell? Do they think they've been abandoned by the Church? Do they have these thoughts? But wait, I was just following the doctrine to its natural Conclusion. It's all there if you're digging deep enough to find it. Do they feel abandoned at all because the church has backpedaled completely, as the rest of you mentioned, from any responsibility yet all. Everything they did, everything they believed is there if you look for it. So sometimes I. I empathize. I try to understand what their thought process must be.

Guest 2 [01:02:51] Thank you, princess. OPD gives us a good reminder, everybody. Please hit like please hit. Subscribe. Please share this newscast with your friends and family. Please leave a comment below any comments from anyone else on the panel. In closing.

Tick-Tock Parody

Guest 3 [01:03:06] Oh, Rebecca wanted this image to be shared.

Guest 4 [01:03:09] I. Well, I have to say I received this from our friend Cultural hall, who, you know, makes incredibly hilarious tick tock parody songs. And he's listening tonight. Hi Cult. And when we mentioned that one of the businesses. Now this is one that has expired, but it is a license. If you look it up. Deseret message massage. It looks like he said this is the place for happy endings. Oh dear. Thanks, coach. That's. That's great.

Guest 2 [01:03:34] Okay, hang on. Can you put that back up? I want to get that address down. It's 1124 Lynn Street. Good news is walk ins are welcome. Thank you very much.

Guest 4 [01:03:43] Oh, this is a parody, everybody. Just like Cult. Just a parody.

Guest 2 [01:03:50] Anything else from you, Bill or John?

Guest [01:03:52] No.

Guest 3 [01:03:53] Yeah. Donate to Donate to Mormonism Live radio free Mormon and Mormonish podcasts. Support them, subscribe to their channels, support these creators and you know, support Mormon stories as well. Yeah, because Bill makes me say that. I. I only say that because Bill makes me.

Guest 2 [01:04:09] Let me say something crazy. And please subscribe to Mormon Newscast.

Guest 3 [01:04:15] Absolutely.

Guest 2 [01:04:16] How's that for something crazy?

Guest 3 [01:04:17] I love it.

Mormon Newscast

Guest 2 [01:04:18] Okay, everybody, we tried to keep it to an hour tonight. We were mostly success. We mostly did it. And right now it's an hour and four minutes and a half. Thank you so much everybody for participating. Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you, John. Thank you, Bill. And thank you, audience. Please join us next week on Monday evening at 6:00pm Mountain Time for the next episode of the Mormon newscast. Good night.