Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 9, 2024 and we have some breaking news. The thumbnail is Mormon Church loses battle with Fairview, Texas over its attempts to construct a temple that is way too high for its basic city ordinances. Because I'm a Texan myself, I've subtitled this episode Don't Mess with Texas because that's appropriate if we, if we want to pull up the latest article from the Houston Chronicle, which was my hometown paper growing up.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] Small North Texas town rejects Mormon Church's plans to construct massive temple. And then the subtitle is, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints plan to build a 65 foot tall temple with a 173 foot tall spire in the outskirts of the Dallas Fort Worth metro area. There's a picture of the proposed temple.

John Dehlin [00:01:05] This is a 44,000 square foot temple in Fairview, Texas that would include a 173 foot tall spire. That's kind of just the headlines. That's the teaser. We have already covered this story a little bit on Mormon Stories podcast, but it's being covered extensively on Mormonish Podcast with Rebecca Biblioteca and Landon and of course Nemo the Mormon, his amazing YouTube channel. He's also been covering it. And I'm just delighted that, you know, we had a city council, I think there was a four or five hour city council meeting recently and we want an update because this news is important and the most shocking news of all.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] It looks like the Mormon Church is going to sue Fairview, Texas for not bending to its attempts to violate the zoning laws of this secular, independent city. So to help us understand, to update us on this amazing story, we are back. The Rebecca Biblioteca. Hey, Rebecca.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:02:13] Hey, John. This is gonna be great. I'm excited.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] Oh yeah. Well, tell us about that shirt. I mean, normally you. I see your shoulders.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:02:22] It's true. There's not much that would make me not wear porn shoulders. But the Fairview United, if you can see that right there, this is what all the residents wear.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] It says keep it a country. What does it say at the bottom?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:02:35] And then it says, this is a phrase I actually taught them. Obey the laws of the land. That probably sounds familiar to a lot of LDS viewers out there. So. Yep, they all wear these. Solidarity Green is their color for Fairview United.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] Yeah, the Mormon Church taught me too well because I memorized the article of faith. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates, in obeying Honoring and sustaining the law.

Nemo [00:03:00] Right. That's it.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] That the church taught us too well, didn't they, Rebecca?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:03:03] I think they did. Yep. They really did. They taught us to be honest and have integrity and to look for truth.

John Dehlin [00:03:09] And here we are in the stand for justice. Okay. And also joining us today is the Landon, also from Mormon Ish podcast. Hey, Landon.

Landon [00:03:19] Hey, John. How are you doing?

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Thanks for joining us.

Landon [00:03:22] Wouldn't miss it.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] We appreciate your reporting on this. And also y' all covered this on the Mormon newscast just, just a couple days ago, right?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:03:31] Yeah, we've actually played the entire meeting. It was like a five hour meeting. But you know, you may think a civic meeting, boring, a snoozer. People, people were riveted to the screen. You don't see this too often. I mean, it did go on for hours and hours. But today on Mormon Stories, we're just going to show you some highlights and some clips so that you can catch up. But if you do want to catch the whole thing in its entirety, RFM and Bill Real and Landon and Nemo and I were on the Mormon newscast and that's floating around out there somewhere on YouTube.

John Dehlin [00:03:59] So I was thrilled to see Nemo on the Mormon newscast. I wanted him to be a regular panelist. And it was, I was happy to see him on there.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:04:06] No, he's amazing. And it was the middle of the night for him. We did not know, we thought he probably couldn't make it. And then all of a sudden he pops in, he's wearing his, as he calls it in the uk, his night shirt. Right. And then he strips his night shirt off and he's wearing his Fairview United shirt. So Nemo is amazing in his coverage of all of this.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] Yeah. How can one Brit wreak so much havoc on the Mormon Church?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:04:28] Yeah. And he was in Texas for, in Fairview for the last council meeting where they had a continuance. And so that was pretty exciting. He got up as a, as a member of record and spoke his piece.

John Dehlin [00:04:41] Yeah. Well, that's beautiful. Okay, so we want to welcome our live streaming audience. We're really glad you have joined us today. We really loved doing live streams because it allows us to incorporate your feedback to hear comments. And we're thrilled. Of course, we always appreciate when people are able to donate through super chats. We'll make sure and include your comments or questions if you happen to share it as a super chat. That's just a way that we fund what we do. But regardless, we're grateful to everyone who's Joining us and we look forward to the live stream audience. Okay, so Rebecca, I gave a tiny bit of an intro just as a teaser.

Background on the Fairview Temple Proposal

John Dehlin [00:05:24] Do you and Landon wanna. We could just jump to the slides. Do you want to give us any overview just for those who maybe are joining us for the first time. Where did we leave off and where do you want to take us exactly?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:05:35] Yeah, I think we just go through. We have just maybe four or five slides right at the beginning to catch everybody up very quickly. What we're talking about is the McKinney Texas Temple being built in Fairview. They're kind of little sister cities right there. So this is the Fairview Town council meeting that we'll be talking about today. But this is a 43000 square foot temple. 173 foot tall spire. One of the problems I think here in land, and you'll probably agree, people just can't fathom how big this is. They can't picture it. We, we here in Utah. Of course we can. Right? We all live right next door, the Linden Temple.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:06:07] I was just there the other day. These buildings are massive and you know, lit. It's hard for people to understand. But this is the size of the temple that we've been dealing with and it's been a several month process. If we can go to our next slide. They did appeal to the Planning and Zoning board in Fairview, Texas. And that was a meeting that we all watched months ago. And the Planning and Zoning board said they do not recommend and at that point it's sent to the town council. Now this meeting was back in June two months ago. And the church, I think sensing, you know, these issues and feeling it would probably be voted down right there, asked for a continuance for two months.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:06:47] So that's what this meeting we're going to talk about today is that continuance. And Landon, do you want to talk about this picture? This is a design created by someone in Fairview who does this for a living. He is an engineer. So this is two, you know, specifications. What are we seeing here, Landon?

Landon [00:07:03] Yeah, if you look on, on the left hand picture there, this is a picture of what the temple would look like in size and proportion compared to the rest of the town. And it shares a parking lot with the LDS Stake Center. If you look there to the left, you see a little white, little white steeple and a red brick building that is the LDS Stake center which is currently this, the largest religious building in Fairview. So you can see this is just massive, just towers over it. The, the stake center is about, I think it's 60ft tall with the steeple, so you can see what 173 foot tall temple is going to look like.

Landon [00:07:44] And then the picture on the right is looking down the main road that goes in front of the, the temple and there you see again the stake center sitting in front of it and just how, how small it is in comparison. So, so this is a massive building, nowhere near what we have here in Layton or Heber that are 200 and something feet tall, but, but still massive. And especially for this small community, that that's motto is keeping it country. They want a country vibe. And they'll also mention the water tower. You'll hear mention of water towers. You see the little white water tower there in the left hand picture?

Landon [00:08:19] Of course those are for utilities. They have to be that tall to provide the water pressure needed. But they try to make the argument, well, you build a water tower that tall, why can't we build a temple that tall? So you'll see some of these arguments come up.

John Dehlin [00:08:31] So is the temple taller than the water tower, the same height as a water tower or lower?

Landon [00:08:36] They're fairly close and the water tower is further out, so it looks smaller in this picture. They're fairly close in size. From that standpoint, of course, the water tower isn't an occupied building and doesn't fall under the same codes as a building does.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] But, but I can say, as someone who grew up in a town called Katy, Texas, I can say that those water towers are often sort of like landmarks for the town. There's historic landmarks and the fact that they tower over everything, it adds to this country charm. And so just two, two reflections I have right off the bat. Is Russell M. Nelson not like the Flex prophet? Like, is he not just trying to flex in every way possible? Whether it's building a medical school at BYU that's likely to be named after him, whether it's building the most temples, and now it's building the biggest and the tallest temples. Is he not the Flex Prophet of the Mormon Church?

The Church's Spire Doctrine and Tall Temple Controversy

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:09:35] Yeah, we absolutely think this is one of the driving factors behind this. If you look at the temples that President Hinckley built, he did have that goal to have 100 temples. He built these smaller temples for the, for the most part that kind of fit into neighborhoods. They kind of took pride on working with communities. I call these temples recently vanity temples. I call them mega temples. They are absolutely a giant billboard and like you say, a, a PR push, I think. And it doesn't matter that it doesn't fit into the community. Fairview is a small town under 15, 000 residents, I believe. And keeping it country, that's what they're saying. And they have zones and ordinances to protect that country feel that their elected officials are enforcing that the town members are behind. So, you know, the town is doing its thing until somebody comes in like this.

John Dehlin [00:10:26] Yeah, yeah. Cher Cheraz writes, I did not know John Dehlin grew up down the road. For me, yep, I'm, I'm a proud graduate of Katy high school, class of 87. Renee Zellweger was my classmate, but that's another story. Let me just add a couple quick things. We covered this in our last episode, but I just want make sure people understand. The Mormon Church has built, built many, many temples without any spires or steeples at all. So clearly spires are not required for the, you know, baptisms for the dead or the washings and anointings or for the endowment sessions to be valid. Am. Am I wrong, Rebecca? And landed. Is it a crucial, is a spire, is a towering spire crucial to the spiritual edification of the temple goers or to the validity of the temple ordinances? Can you guess?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:11:18] It is now. And this is something we should point out that's brand new in McKinney with the McKinney Temple. And I think this is why there's so much interest. So in Cody, Wyoming, Mormonish follows Heber Cody, Bakersfield, Lone Mountain, and now Fairview. In the McKinney Temple in Cody, Wyoming, they kind of tried this. There's a law called R lupa, the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Person act, you know, that kind of says town can't stop you from practicing your religion. So when Cody, they said, you know, we need a tall temple to be able to practice our religion. And the residents in Cody said, well, show us that.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:11:53] Where is that in your doctrine? Your talks, your other temples? There's 11 of them that have domes or no spire at all. So in Fairview, we started seeing letters coming out from church leaders, area reps, telling the residents to send emails to the Fairview Town Council and to make sure to include that the spire is part of their constitutional right to the religious freedom and religious worship. So this is the first time we've seen this. We've named it the Steeple Doctrine. Right. And we have seen people get up in other meetings and say the steeple is a part of our religious worship. We also see them mentioned the mass of the walls is part of that because they need that to be able to pass code too.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:12:36] The walls themselves that over 60ft high break the code. So they've got to be able to say it's part of our doctrine. However, we have lots of clips Elder Bednar President Nelson saying what's really important is what happens inside. It's not the architecture, it's the ordinances. Bednar says something like, you know, there's no small temple. So I feel they're really going to have to start introducing this soon in conference talks. Perhaps Liahona magazine articles. They're going to have to get this into the religious lexicon that it is important. But no, you're right, John. Being 59 years old, I've never heard that in all my decades in the church. Have you, Landon?

John Dehlin [00:13:14] Never.

Landon [00:13:15] These new mega temples and it should be pointed out this is not just the steeple height that's breaking the code. The walls are 60 that the roof goes to 60ft before the steeple gets put on top of it. Resident. This is built in a residential area. Those are zoned for 35 foot high roof lines. Churches generally get a, a bit of an exception. They're right around 40ft but nowhere close to 60ft. Nothing else is close to 60ft except in Fairview, except the town hall which has a 60 foot tall building. But it is built in the commercial zone where it should be built. And therefore if the church would build in the commercial zone, they could also build to these heights.

Landon [00:13:56] But since they're trying to build in a residential area, that's what's making these mega temples just, just so much larger than everything around it. And this is how bad it's gotten. You've got Vegas saying these are too bright and you've got Texas saying these are too big. You know, what's up with that crazy world.

John Dehlin [00:14:16] So that's, that's amazing. That's. I love it. Let me just share a couple comments really quick because I think it's important. Karen Toler writes, spires are like a Tower of Babel trying to reach heaven. And again, as the church tries to invent this doctrine of, of the, of this. What are you calling it, Rebecca?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:14:36] The Spire doctrine. We've even had people come up with, you know, the proclamation of the family. They've called it the proclamation of the steeple. There are very creative people out there that have made, you know, different little things like that which, which really drive the point home.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] Yeah, like, like, like don't we all agree that, that the Tower of Babel and in Mormonism the Rami Umtum.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:14:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] Those are two stories about super tall architectural structures that, that are both an indication of pride and of apostasy. And so like for the church to be dying on this hill and they won't die, they'll probably win because they're richer than Heavenly Father at this point. But for the church to basically kill its reputation or harm its reputation over a prideful erection of a super tall steeple is it just, it's, it's bad pr, but it's also, it's bullying and, and it feels anti scriptural. So, so thank you Karen Toler for that comment. Daisy May writes Summer Rain. Apparently Russell Nelson thinks that he who dies with the tallest temples wins again.

John Dehlin [00:15:41] That's the kind of flex idea. Summer Rain. We love you, Summer Rain. She, she writes this would never happen under Hinkley or Monson. I think that's probably true. And then Christie writes, besides the spire height, the bigger problem is that the roof height is 65ft in the city ordinance. I think this is partly what you were saying as well. Landon allows building heights to 63ft. It's a massive structure for the area of town. And then I'll also just share. Cody Ironworks. Thank you for the super chat, Cody. He writes, we are still waiting on the judge here and Cody to decide on the temple. I don't hold much hope due to the influence of the LDS Church because there's a lot of Mormons and a lot of wealthy Mormons.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:16:22] Yeah, I don't know. Cody's an interesting scenario because they did have their final hearing and that ruling was supposed to come out a few weeks later. It's been months. So Heber and Cody, you know, we don't know those are still up in the air. Lone Mountain, of course, you know, that was, that was approved and I believe some residents are going to try to launch some kind of a suit. But yeah, the mass of the walls. We started hearing the church lawyers and rhetoric saying the mass of the walls and we thought why are they saying that? They never say anything unless there's a reason behind it.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:16:52] And then we realized, ah, they also have to protect that building height and make sure we all understand, you know, that that's part of their religious worship too. So one of the lawyers, Curtin McConkey actually said that Jesus or the Lord lives on the second floor. I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] This is so crazy. Okay, a couple other super quick things and then I promise we'll, we'll move on. This is kind of. Greg Gregory is reflecting the sentiment for non Mormons, there's a sentiment that temples ruin neighborhoods. Probably for ex Mormons and non Mormons, temples ruin neighborhoods. They make you feel like you're surrounded by a.

John Dehlin [00:17:31] Especially when you think about the FLDS church, they were in Texas, by the way, and the history of the LDS Church, Masonic death oath temple ceremonies and baptizing dead Holocaust victims like non Mormons view temple work as weird and as culty. And I just think the church doesn't understand how they look. And another example of how they look is Susan Mowers. Just saying the LDS Church are such bullies. And I'm not saying they're a bully, but I'm saying that's how this is being perceived. And I just don't get why they don't have better PR people to just make smarter decisions that don't have really bad optics. And thank you Jake Barton, for joining us. Rebecca, go ahead.

Nemo [00:18:19] What were you going to say?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:18:20] I think we hear over and over in all the towns that we're working with, the residents say, and the church says just as soon as it's built, you'll understand, you'll see the blessing they keep using that we want to be good neighbors. It will be a blessing to the community. And it may not seem like it now, but you will see. And I really believe that they believe that, that people will finally understand. But I don't think that they see the damage on the ground. And I will say that I also podcast about this for the faithful LDS members because I feel that they in their various cities are being used and manipulated to fight this fight on the ground, to have this animos and these communities ripped apart on the ground where they live.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:19:01] And I don't know if they necessarily understand all the information. I believe they think it's religious persecution. It's not, it's not a religious issue at all. And I feel that Fairview and the way it's able to get information out, it might be sort of penetrating that idea. I've seen some posts on faithful social media saying, now what is going on here? You know, maybe it's not religious persecution. Maybe we should look at this a little further. So, so that's the important part, is that we feel for our LDS faithful friends, relatives and neighbors who are caught up in this firestorm of having to defend something that is indefensible.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:19:39] And I have, I have recordings from meetings with stake leaders in Fairview and with Curtin McConkey lawyers. And one of the stake leaders said, can you please just tell us why it has to be so tall. This is a stake leader asking that question. He is asked that every day by his congregation, but by his neighbors. And the answer was just, we can't give an inch. This is what the Curtin McConkey lawyer said. We can't give an inch. If we do, if we start giving an inch here, a foot there, pretty soon all towns will be able to say, look at this precedence. And they said we'll be left with 35 foot temples. So I think they dig in to protect temples everywhere. They're not going to budge.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] This, this smells like Dalliny chokes his litigiousness just harping on religious freedom as a cloak to hide religious bigotry. And this is just like a hill. Oaks is willing to die on litigiously because he's worried about all the other religious freedom implications plus the Nelson flex. The only other thing I'll add is that the Mormon Church is in decline, including in Texas. So for it to be expanding all these temples, there's not going to be members to actually attend them or staff them. So that makes it all ridiculous. Okay, we've analyzed.

Landon [00:20:57] I want to point one thing out here though. None of this is about whether, you know, the church has the right to build a temple. They have a right to send as many people as they, as they want or however many members they have.

Landon [00:21:10] Nobody in the town is saying, don't build a temple here. You can't build a temple here. We think what's going on inside is creepy. Most of the people don't even know what goes on inside. The church gets up there and tells them all these wonderful things that happen inside. And I think most of the residents don't even know what it means when they say, I was sealed to my companion for time and all eternity. They don't know what that means to these people. This is about protecting their town and their building codes. They have built their town to keep it country, to have a country charm, to have a country look.

Landon [00:21:41] And this temple takes away from that. So this is really. And, and you'll hear that over and over in here. They're saying if you build the temple to this height and to this standard, we will approve it today.

Landon [00:21:55] They gave the church two months to come back with a design that met the, the requirements that they gave them. And the church just came back with their lawyers, which is what we're going to watch. They said they'd lower the steeple 15ft. You know, wow, out of 173ft when they said 60ft is the highest steeple you can have. So I just want to make sure everyone understands. No one is saying you can't build a temple here. They're simply saying the temple must adhere to the local codes. And if you do that, we'll approve it.

How the Church Pursued the Fairview Site

John Dehlin [00:22:25] All right, well, let's. Let's keep going with our slides and. Because we've got a lot to cover today. So let's go to the next slide.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:22:33] Okay. I just wanted to put this in because this is a temple near my home. This is the Linden Temple. And again, I don't feel that people understand the perspective here. Now, this is bigger. This is, I think, is about the same size as Heber. This is like a 213 foot steeple. And this is under construction. But that's a house on the left. That's a fairly large house, three stories with a basement even on a hill. And right next to this. And this is me. This is not doctored in any way. I'm standing across the street taking this picture, and you can see some scaffolding on the left side of the building.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:23:06] You can see some tiny little figures. Those are human beings. Those are construction workers working. You just. The residents have got to understand the scope and the scale of this. And for the church to say they keep. They keep putting out these graphics showing it's not very big. You'll never notice it. It's going to fit right in. It'll be a blessing when it's built. This is the reality of what those residents that are just 100 or so feet from it, and we're not even talking about how it is lit up the majority of the time. Everyone has seen pictures of that. If you haven't Google LDS temple at night, you know, you can't pass this off as something that's cohesive in the neighborhood.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:23:44] And that's why you have zoning codes to stop something like this. And as Fairview residents have pointed out, Hawkins, over the last decades, they have stopped many buildings from going in there because it doesn't meet their code. A medical building, I think some kind of an office complex. They are not persecuting the LDS Church. They are protecting the look and feel of their town by their elected officials enacting their zones and zoning and ordinances. And there have been many buildings that they've said, nope, sorry, but in this case, it's a religious building, and RUPA is a law. They can let a religious organization claim religious persecution, hence lawsuits and all of that back and forth.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] Yeah, it's. It's just it's obnoxiously large.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:24:28] That's a good word for it. An obnoxiously large mega temple. That's exactly right.

John Dehlin [00:24:32] Noxiously large.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:24:33] Oh, dear.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] Okay, so let's go to the next slide.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:24:36] So this kind of catches us up when we last left Fairview. Landon, do you want to just detail. And then our next slide is the actual steps that they took in those two months. If you want to take that, Landon.

Nemo [00:24:46] Yeah.

Landon [00:24:46] At the last meeting, as they broke up and the church could see it wasn't going to get approved, they asked, the church asked for an extension. And Fairview said, hey, come back with a plan that includes a 42 foot roof height and a 68 foot steeple, which is the same as the largest religious building in Fairview, which is the LDS meeting house, and we will approve it. And we look. We took a look. And the Palo Alto Temple meets these requirements and is almost the same square footage as what they're asking for in Fairview. So there are designs out there that meet the codes. And all the church has to do is bring one of those designs into town and they would have their temple approved.

John Dehlin [00:25:25] Okay. All right, let's go to the next slide.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:25:31] Yep.

Nemo [00:25:32] Yeah.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:25:32] I think these are the steps that the church was given. Two months. They asked for two months. That was the extension. And these are the steps that the church took during that time. Of course, the town said, please bring us another design. We'd be happy to approve it and you can start building today and give your residents, your. Your church members, you know what they need. So, Landon, you can go through this. This is what the church did in the two months time period that they had.

Landon [00:25:55] Yep. Practically the day after they hired a powerful local real estate law firm that specializes in RUPA to.

Guest [00:26:04] To.

Landon [00:26:05] To join their team. They offered to change the name of the temple. And, and this is a vital thing to understand for those who don't know this. It's called the McKinney Temple, but it's actually in Fairview, Texas. Fairview and McKinney have a bit of a rivalry over several things because McKinney has tried to build an airport that flies right over the top of Fairview, which wants to keep a country. So they didn't take kindly to a temple being called the McKinney Temple that's actually being built in Fairview. And breaking all of their codes, they created a website to inform members about the temple. They called for yet another fast in multiple space stakes up to an hour away.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:26:43] So many paths.

Landon [00:26:44] Yeah, there's actually Three temples in the Dallas Fort Worth area. One's under construction, the Fort Worth Texas one. And then this would be the third one. And they're calling all the stakes that attend all those temples to have a fast for the temple. And of course they fasted. Not that their leaders would make any changes but that the, that the residents and that the government officials would soften their heart and accept what's being forced down their throat. They called upon members to attend the meeting on the 6th. This required the town to get a much larger facility. They had to get it twice, ten thousand dollar rental for the facility.

Landon [00:27:21] In order for these people to come from out of town, they had to hire police force. There's pictures of, they had to set up command centers. Police had to work overtime in order to host these meetings. This was an extreme expense to a small town. In order to deal with all these people who were projected to be coming into town, they organized watch parties in the stake centers that will that they were going to show at the town council meeting on the 6th. They asked all the stake to gather in the gyms and they live stream this so they could watch it. They created an 81 page document explaining their interpretation of RLUPA and outlining their intention to sue the city.

Landon [00:28:01] And they sent a 39 page letter from the church attorney to each council member reminding them of RLUPA and basically the threat of a lawsuit.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] Will you remind our audience what R LUPA is?

Landon [00:28:12] RLUPA is the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Person Act. It was a law that was passed by Congress back in, I think it was 2003 right around there. It was introduced by, believe it or not, three Utah sent, well, two Utah senators and an Oregon senator who were LDS when the Boston temple got rejected for having a steeple, for being too tall. And so they introduced this legislation. The intent, it was passed unanimously. The intent was to act as a, as a shield so that religions could come into a community and the community could not make zoning laws to prohibit one specific religion that it didn't like from building.

Landon [00:28:57] And so it was, I think all of us would agree that this is a great, a great idea that this should, we should protect churches against that. However, the church has now been wielding it as a sword coming into town saying we can build whatever you want, we can build whatever we want. And our religious right over trumps all of your building codes and all of your zoning codes. Basically the argument they're making is, is that RLUPA has taken secular codes and allowed religious leaders to override civic leaders when it comes to designing and installing things in your. In your town.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] Okay, that's super helpful, Landon. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Should we go to the next slide?

The Church Mobilizes Members in Fairview

Nemo [00:29:41] Let's do it.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:29:41] Yeah. And I just, I just want to mention, of course, that they have mobilized members from everywhere, up to 100 miles away. And on Mormonish podcasts, we often receive documents, these letters from stake presidents, from area reps. These are faithful members that are sending them to us because they're getting them through the, you know, ward email chain. And they definitely want their church to do better. They may not be comfortable coming out and saying anything in their community, but they send the information to us so that we can get it out there and the mobilization of members all around. People in Fairview don't understand what a temple district is.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:30:14] They don't understand why there would be people coming from 100 miles away. Although I know that some of these emails in support that flood the town, we're talking about thousands and thousands of thousands. They come from all over the world. I've seen. And it's interesting, when I went through the, the specs of the meeting that we're about to watch sections from, there were 40 residents of Fairview that spoke, stood up and gave a little two minute. There were 30 non residents that spoke. Now, some live close, McKinney, Allen, but others drove in for this to make a sense statement for the temple. They are not a Fairview resident, you know, yet they have been activated and mobilized.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:30:52] They've been told the adversary is attacking the Lord's temple. We need to mobilize. I mean, they've done this in all the other cities too. And we all know that the church, the elderly church, is very good at mobilizing. I keep trying to explain to everyone with the touch of a button, you know, about those phone trees and those email trees. It just trickles down and everybody receives the emails. So the poor city manager in Fairview has received, I would say by now probably 20,000 emails. The city, who are volunteer staff, have to log each email because it's a communication from the public. So talk about gridlock, talk about hobbling a city so they can't take care of the other civic matters that they're supposed to. This is what this is doing.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] Yeah, I, you know, I'm old enough to remember the Equal Rights Amendment and how this is a federal proposed amendment to the Constitution that the Mormon church absolutely squelched using its money and its power in the late 70s, early 80s. And then of course, pretty Much. All of us can remember Proposition 8 where a sovereign US state, the California was, you know, was, was legalizing same sex marriage. And then the Mormon church spent over $40 million again, man or woman personed phone booths at BYU to do call trees into the state of California to persuade Californians to vote for Prop 8 and to kill same sex marriage in 2008.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] And it lied, saying it didn't spend any money. And it was found to be lying in hiding the, the amount of money and effort that it was spending. So it's, it's just the Mormon Church wielding its money and power against democratic sovereign institutions. And it's, it's very troubling.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:32:42] Yep. And even it's just sheer population. And I keep thinking if we want to know what the early days of the church were like when they would move into an existing city with their sheer numbers, I think this is sort of an example of, of how people felt.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] Now I, I love pushback. Houston says, to be fair, Nemo wasn't a resident either. He's not even a citizen in this country and he got to speak. I mean, what would we say to the argument that ex Mormons are wielding too much of an influence with Fairview, just like Mormons are as well? Would you, would you guys have a response to that?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:33:16] Yeah, that is kind of interesting. What do you think, Landon? I mean, there was an article that came out in the Times and Seasons that said post Mormon involvement is giving fodder to, you know, Rupa basically to say they're being persecuted, but I don't think so. Anybody that we've talked to in these towns, they basically come to us saying, what are Mormons? What is the Mormon Church? What is this organization? Can you help us understand what's a bishop, what's a stake president, what's a district? They're at a huge disadvantage not being able to understand what organization they are up against. And so we're just simply trying to provide information.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:33:51] And believe it or not, the information we provide is mostly all from faithful members who have sent us communications, sent us recordings, sent us letters. So I think we just, I honestly, I do this because, you know, I feel fighting for justice, kind of that seems really simplistic. But I also again feel for friends, family, relatives, faithful members who are put in this position of defending something when if they really dug deep, they might go, you know what, why doesn't the church build something like the Yorba Linda Temple right there? They could start tomorrow. We could have the blessings of the temple. It's Sort of like petition the church, not the town. You can have what you want, everyone can have what they want, and everyone can be a good neighbor.

Nemo [00:34:35] Yeah.

Landon [00:34:36] And I, I want to point out Nemo was there at an invitation from the Fairview residents because the church kept insisting that this was part of their doctrine, the steeple was part of their doctrine. And the. The Fairview residents go, well, we can't speak to this. We're not lds. So they called an active LDS person, Nemo, to come and speak in their behalf to. He didn't speak against the temple. He spoke for whether or not steeple doctrine was. Was a part of the LDS religion as. As his background and upbringing.

John Dehlin [00:35:17] That makes sense. The only other thing I'll say is that if you look at the annual budget of The Mormon Church, what, 8, 9 billion, and then compare that to the annual budget of. Of Fairview, Texas, it's just not fair. The money and the power and the influence that the church is having on this little city is overwhelming. So if some of us step up, if y' all and others step. Step up just to help counterbalance the excessive power and money and force wielded by the Mormon Church, I think. I think that's a reasonable thing to do. All right, what's this next slide, Rebecca?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:35:53] After the city count, the town council meeting on Tuesday, and you'll hear some of the clips where people say, we have an incredible need. You know, the. The Dallas temple is to capacity. We. We don't have enough room there. Somebody logged on. And again, this is a faithful member because they were able to use their account as a faithful member to check out the sessions and the appointments. You have to make an appointment. You can walk in. But this kind of shows. I don't know if you want to kind of. And this is exactly right when the meeting was going on. This shows how many slots are available in these different sessions.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:36:26] And there seems to be a lot. Now, I know youth baptisms is a different story, and that's because they bring youth groups in. It's an activity that they do, you know, for, for young men, young women. And so sometimes those. It is hard to get a spot. That's why temples are starting to build two baptistries. Right. Makes a lot of sense to bring the youth in because that means the parents have to support. The parents have to be on board, the youth leaders, too. So I will admit that I, you know, youth baptisms, probably you do have to make an appointment. It is hard. But if you look back at that slide, I mean, it Just shows session.

John Dehlin [00:36:58] This is Dallas.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:36:59] This is Dallas Temple. The night or the, the next day, what would have been available the next day?

John Dehlin [00:37:04] It's an existing temple already in the same city.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:37:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] And it's just got so much emptiness, so much availability, so much capacity. Why in the freak is there even a need for another temple in Dallas when we know the church is shrinking in the United States, especially in Texas?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:37:22] Yeah, well, you hear a lot of people as we go forward here talking about proximity. Proximity. The Dallas temple, one of the residents told me, is 27 minutes away. And you'll hear a lot of people talk about the danger of the youth driving on the freeway to the temple, talk about the inconvenience it is to get to the temple. And that's why they need one right there. However, that's relative because build it in Fairview and People 27 minutes the other way will say I can't get to the temple. So I don't know, maybe it's a plan to put them literally on every corner like was prophesied for the millennium. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] It kind of blows me away because when I was growing up in Houston, in Katy, the temple that our temple district was the Mesa Arizona Temple and we did a youth temple trip where we got on big huge Greyhound buses and it was like a three day bus trip just to get to the Mesa Arizona temple to be able to do baptisms for the dead. So it's just a, a totally different world where like a 30 minute drive is too much. So we need to make it a 10 minute drive. That's just. It's hard for my Mormon brain to even rap.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:38:22] Yeah, those were the good old days, right? The bus trip, I'd go to Idaho Falls and it was a big deal. It was, it was actually really fun. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] I mean, in all seriousness, the church is risking making temples so common that they're not going to be special anymore. But that's just my opinion. They can do what they want.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:38:38] Obviously this is outside the venue before the meeting that we're about to watch clips from. And as Landon pointed out, you've got barricades, you're going to see police force, there's fire force, medical, and at great expense to the city, even buying an expanded license for viewing so that more people could watch it because they knew about all the stake centers. That's something new too. Those watch parties in the steak centers. I think that's interesting because I just, I'd love to talk to an active member that attended one of those and say, what did you think? Did you get the sense that it's not religious persecution, but it's just a civic process? But anyway, I think the next slide is some pictures from the venue too, and then I think we can jump in. Yeah, exactly. And this was earlier in the day. You know, they're mobilizing, they're getting ready. This is taking.

Landon [00:39:23] That's a command center there, the motorhome with the big antennas sticking up out of it. They were expecting that. On the first meeting, they had over 3,000 people outside. They called for stakes from all of the Dallas Fort Worth area to go to the meeting. And then at the last minute, only a few hundred showed up. So we don't know if the church called that off and realized how bad that looked.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:39:48] But all dressed in white shirts, it does look bad. It's frightening to residents to see people swarming in, all in the same color of shirt. It's intimidating.

John Dehlin [00:39:59] It's just obnoxious that the Mormon Church is requiring this little town to spend so much time, money, resources and emergency staff and vehicles for their, for Russell M. Nelson's Temple Steeple flex. It's, it's, it's kind of gross.

Landon [00:40:17] And you're gonna see that it doesn't stop there. When we start watching the video, the very first thing, they introduce their application, and then they go right to their lawyer, and you'll see how much respect the lawyer seems to have for this town that they just descended upon.

The Fairview Town Council Meeting Begins

John Dehlin [00:40:30] All right, well, let's go to it.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:40:31] So, and I want to say that I recently learned that the lawyer, Richard Abernathy, was formerly the attorney for the city of Fairview back in the early 2000s. Isn't that interesting?

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Yeah, it is.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:40:43] He knows them, he knows the town, and now he's on the other side here.

John Dehlin [00:40:47] So here's a photo of, of him. Anything you want to say to set up this next clip?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:40:52] I think just, you know, this is a civic meeting. The volume is a little muffled. Just because it was a civic meeting. They don't have, you know, a great sound system. So you might have to focus. The clips that we're going to show were originally put out on the Mormon newscast. So you will see some pop ups from people, some comments as they're watching it. And so just know that those came from the night, real time, as we were watching it, and people were giving their reactions as it was happening. And the first thing we're going to go through is the church's lawyer's application. He is going to explain to the town council, what they would like to have happen. So this is the official presentation of the application by the church's lawyer.

John Dehlin [00:41:32] And it's a bit. It's a bit lengthy. Right? It's.

Guest [00:41:35] It's.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:41:36] It is. But you'll find yourself riveted. I mean, I know you don't think that a civic meeting like this, a town council, could be interesting, but I think we'll stop it, you know, here and there as you want, John, because there are definitely some points you'll be able to just see, you know, how the church. You'll be able to see the maneuvers based on what we've already just told you. It's really interesting.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] And we also heard Nemo and Rebecca and Landon and maybe even Bill Real jump in here and there. Go ahead. What were you gonna say?

Landon [00:42:02] Yeah, the reason we put this in is we wanted to compare and contrast the statement by the lawyer versus the statement by the. By the mayor. It is night and day as to who really is exhibiting Christian value.

John Dehlin [00:42:18] And I'm just going to add. Again, I'm repeating, but the volume on these video clips is going to be low. And I did everything I could to fix them. We did not. We were not able to increase the volume. So you are just going to have to turn up and turn down your volume as we switch between these videos and then our commentary. We'll try not to comment over the video because I think that is gonna shock your list, you. You as listeners. But we will do is. Is Rebecca and Landon, whenever you want to pause, just. Just say pause or. Or whatever.

Nemo [00:42:51] And.

John Dehlin [00:42:51] And then we'll have commentary separate to allow people to adjust their volumes. Is that okay?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:42:55] Yep, that's great.

Church Attorney Argues the Zoning Case

John Dehlin [00:42:56] Okay, so this is attorney Mormon faithful Attorney Abernathy lecturing and I think threatening.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:43:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:43:05] This legislature Tuesday night, City council Tuesday

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:43:08] night, a few days ago.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Yeah, August. August 7th. Right. August 6th. Okay, here we go.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:43:17] Good job, Tom. My name is Richard Abernathy, and I represent the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. And thank you for your time this evening. I've been a lawyer for almost 47 years, and 46 of those years, I've represented cities with pride and gratitude. I even had the privilege of representing the town of Fairview. It's a beautiful town. A lot of good things happen in Fairview.

Video Clip 1 [00:43:46] What the council apparently plans to do in this zoning case is inconsistent with what I understand the town's about. I say apparently because at the June, July 11, 2024, meeting with representatives of the church and town, the mayor and Dr. Hubbard told the church's representatives that neither of them would support the church's application or the church's most recent offer. They said they would only support a 68 foot steeple and a 42 foot building height.

Video Clip 1 [00:44:17] I take you at your word. That is your position to mind. Since it takes six of you to approve our proposal. That means the church's application or its most recent offer will fail without, in my view, fully considering all the relevant law facts and issues.

Video Clip 1 [00:44:36] I don't understand. I just don't understand. Let's start with the meeting Violence. The meeting tonight. Fairview's new procedures for the operation of this meeting effectively denies this church, its members, its representatives and supporters from both attending and speaking at the meeting. Which very likely is a violation of Means Act.

Video Clip 1 [00:45:00] This differential treatment should not be allowed by you. For example, your sign outside states that there cannot be live streaming inside the building. In my opinion, the old Meetings act says that anybody can videotape this meeting anytime they want to.

Video Clip 1 [00:45:19] What is the basis of your denial to allow anybody in here to videotape whatever they want to videotape or live stream it? I cannot find where you publish the rules for the process of making public comments. In my opinion, that is a requirement of me's act. I haven't seen them and maybe you have them and just. I haven't seen them. I'd like to see them.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] One thing I don't understand is what it's being live streamed. Why is he making exactly.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:45:47] What the town is trying to say, I believe is we don't want everybody holding their phone up, taping it. This meeting is live streamed to 3, 000 people. You can log on. It's going to stake centers everywhere. They just don't want the chaos of people with their phones at the meeting. There's absolutely no reason. But again, they pick these little things to try to hammer at the town. To make them look like they're doing something wrong. They' that

John Dehlin [00:46:10] live streamed that.

Landon [00:46:11] The town bought 3, 000 additional licenses for the live streaming at a cost of $3,000. To do that, so that everyone could watch this, they rented a facility at the cost of $10,000 to allow the members to come and express their. Their feelings. They allowed. They didn't have to. They allowed people from outside of Fairview to stand up and have their say. Because they knew a lot of the members were outside of Fairview and were not Fairview residents. But they allowed non Fairview residents. In fact, they. They made half the tickets were available to non Residents and half to residents. So the town did everything.

Landon [00:46:52] And then it was a four to five hour meeting where anyone who wanted to say anything, they waited until everyone had said what they had to say before they closed the meeting. And this was the second time they'd done this. They did it two months ago where the church came and asked for an extension just hours before the planned meeting was supposed to happen and so they could stand up then and express their views as well.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:47:16] So I feel these are talking points for LDS members. If the church's lawyer gets up and says, I don't understand why you're treating it like us like this, I don't understand, then the members will probably go, yeah, why are they treating us like this? You know what I mean? I feel like it's sort of a talking point, right?

John Dehlin [00:47:30] Yeah. All right, let's go back to the video. Turn your volumes back up, everybody.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:47:35] And why are you not allowing everyone who wishes to speak during public comment the opportunity to do so? My understanding the old Means act and the attorney General is you have to require everyone to speak. I spent a lot of time in these meetings and this meeting's going to be long. I sent through a lot of long meetings, but everybody got speaking.

Video Clip 2 [00:47:57] Let me turn to the town planner. The town Planner has written three reports on the selling application. One's dated April 11, another is dated May 9, and the third is dated Aug. 2. In the first two reports, the town planner supported the site and landscape development plans and stated the steeple and the building heights were quote, policy in quote, issues for you to decide.

Video Clip 2 [00:48:24] The April 11 and May 9, 2024 planning reports, when read together, find compliance with the landscape buffers and the lot coverage. As Tom said, he concluded in other reports that the traffic impact study does not require further additional deceleration lanes. Parking spaces are sufficient, the runoff for the proposed drainage is properly engineered, there is adequate water supply, there is compliance with the outdoor lighting requirements for parking, and there is compliance with the town's architectural lighting standards and others. I won't repeat them all.

Video Clip 2 [00:49:02] Regarding building height and steeple height, he states the town approved. This is the land planner said the town approved the Creekwood Methodist Church steeple height at 154ft and concluded that, quote, staff is supportive of the site and landscape development plans, end quote. Based on these reports and what Mr. Coppin has said tonight, I don't think there's any objective basis for you to deny this zoning request.

Video Clip 2 [00:49:30] However, if you've read the August 20, the August 2, 2024 staff report, you know that he removes all references to the compliance with town regulations except the heights and the steeple in the building. Staff also removed any comments regarding support of the site and landscape development plans. I don't understand. Was staff directed to change this? The staff? The town was told we comply with the town's regulations.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:50:00] Just to make it clear, the objective

Nemo [00:50:02] thing is that 154ft is shorter than 173ft. So even if Creekwood was approved, the

John Dehlin [00:50:11] church is still asking for more than

Nemo [00:50:13] has ever been approved in the town. And Wall Heights of 65ft were never

Landon [00:50:18] approved in any building. Do you think that's the reason, Nemo, for them lowering the height by whatever it was, 16ft or 17ft?

Nemo [00:50:26] I think they were trying to get close to that. And in many cases we went above and beyond what we required. Let's talk about meeting with church representatives.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:50:38] Pause for one second. Sorry. Look, I paused twice. Look at that. Maybe I'm about to say it. I don't know. I just thought we might want to talk about the bell tower for one second. They bring this up all the time. Twenty years ago, the Creekwood Methodist Church put in an application for a bell tower that was very tall, close, but not, as you know, still shorter than the temple. And they keep talking about this. This was never built. It was a pretty approved by the town council, but with conditions. Right. And sent back down to the planning and zoning board to work out the height.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:51:08] And there were going to be bells, the sound. So this was never built. This was never completed. It was approved in town council and then sent to planning and zoning. But they use this, the LDS church uses this as a precedent saying you approved that 20 years ago. You need to approve us now. Now it's interesting because the temple, the McKinney Temple was originally going to be built in Prosper. It was announced in conference by President Nelson as the Prosper temple. When they approached the Prosper town council, it looked like they were handed a packet of their zoning and there wasn't any wiggle room. The lawyers have said we moved to Fairview because you have looser ordinances and this precedent that they think that they can get their temple built because of this.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:51:50] But again, the bell tower was never built like that. Landon, do you want to add anything quickly about that? Because they will mention this bell tower over and over. And I do believe that active LDs, faithful, LDs do believe that the bell tower is a precedence. That's correct. And they're. And that's why they think they're being Discriminated against. But we did an entire episode with Nemo on it. That is not the case. Landon, do you want to add any quick thing about the bell tower?

Landon [00:52:14] Just that, you know it was approved 90% of the way there. They got 90% of the way through the process. But it. When the, when the city planner, when the city council approved it, they approved it and sent it back to the Planning and Zoning board with an exhibit that said the height and the bells are to be worked out with the Planning and Zoning Commission. And then at the very next Planning and Zoning commission, you see the church there trying to. They had FAA reports and stuff trying to get the height approved. And then whether the church ran out of money or whatever, they never completed the application. They came back 10 years later and applied for a new cup that was for a 56 foot high steeple. And that's what is currently on the United Methodist.

Nemo [00:53:01] So.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:53:01] So I don't know if you want to show.

Landon [00:53:03] It got 90 of the way through the process, but it was never completed, therefore it was never approved or built.

Nemo [00:53:09] Right.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:53:10] But the church uses this over and over.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] Is that a slide you want me to show?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:53:13] Yeah, it's at the end. You can show that because they do talk about it over and over that you guys approved the town. Approved. Approved. Is that the very end?

Landon [00:53:20] And it's important to note too, this is a bell tower. It's not connected to a.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:53:24] Not lit. Yeah, it's a series of slides.

John Dehlin [00:53:28] Describe that for those who are listening.

Landon [00:53:30] And, and this is off to the left is the proposed. It was never built tower that they were going to build. It's a bell tower. You can see the openings there for the, for the bells. This was being built on like a 28 acre site. So it was way back away from any of the neighbors.

Landon [00:53:48] The church met with the neighbors. The church worked with the Planning and zoning committee for almost nine months to work in the details. They held meetings with the neighbors. They had no neighbors who were worried about it. In the case of the temple, it's only on eight acres, I think backs right up to the neighbors. When you're looking at height, one of the things you're looking at is how does it cast shadows? During certain times of the year, you can see that a thin, small tower doesn't cast near the shadow that a large building like this, not only the steeple, but the, the, the, the building itself cast shadow.

Landon [00:54:24] So that's one of the consideration. So this is not a like, for like comparison. But in the end this was not approved. It was never final. Approved. It was never built. We actually have a picture of the.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:54:35] There are two more slides if you want to run through them.

Landon [00:54:39] This is what was built, this is what's there now. And so you can see that this is not even a close comparison. And you can see that United Methodist is within the requirements of what the county, what the city said that the LDS could build that 68 and 42.

Nemo [00:54:56] Yeah.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:54:56] And there's an actual picture, I think next of what it looks like. But again. Yeah, there we go. There it is. Yep, there it is. Very nice. Fits right in. But again, this is what the church is hanging their hat on. That 20 years ago your town council said you didn't have a problem with the height. But as Landon said, 90% approved, not approved, not built. But that website we talked about that they created for members to look at, that's where the information is that look, they built this before. They're stopping us because we're the LDS church. It's a way to sort of allude to religious persecution.

Town Council Urged to Follow Zoning Law

Landon [00:55:31] And I think the thing that this is they're applying for a conditional use permit. That means there's conditions on what they're doing. They're trying to go above or beyond the code. And so the, the, the city has the right to put conditions on it. And that's exactly what happened in the bell tower case. The city approved it. The planning and zoning approved it. The city council approved it, but they approved it with conditions. And those conditions were that the planning and zoning board had to work out the height and the, the, the sounds with the church in order for it to be approved. That was one of the conditions of the approval. And that height never was finalized. And therefore you can't say it was approved at that height because the height was never finalized by the planning and zoning.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] Right.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:56:18] And for those of you that really know what we're talking about, that have seen the documents, Exhibit C. Go look at exhibit C. And you can also watch our episode with Nemo on Mormon issue about a three hour episode about this topic alone.

Nemo [00:56:29] So.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:56:29] So enough said. Right.

John Dehlin [00:56:31] Okay, that's good to know. So it sounds like the Mormon Church is sort of crying religious discrimination relative to other churches.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:56:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:40] In a way that's deceptive and not reflecting what really happened. Is that right?

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:56:45] No, that's exactly right.

John Dehlin [00:56:46] Yeah, that feels on brand, unfortunately. Okay.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [00:56:51] Why didn't you just tell me what's wrong? I've been home lots of times. Times. We also provided Fairview and your town attorney a total now of three written briefs regarding the applicable law. Despite asking for meetings to discuss and request for written requests, I mean, for written responses, we've not received any explanation.

Video Clip 3 [00:57:12] We've also provided a written brief to your outside coun council, Mr. Christian, who also has not responded to our position from the church's perspective. There's not been nearly enough discussion about the legal issue in this case. In any case, we're here and I want to talk to you about the law for just a moment.

Video Clip 3 [00:57:34] The reason I've emphasized the law is, remember, this is the issue the opponents put on their T shirts. That's their first issue. Follow the law and not an inch month more. They want you to follow the law. The church wants you to follow the law.

Video Clip 3 [00:57:52] Each of you took an oath to follow the law and the Constitution. And I'm confident that each of you want to and intend to follow along. The law is very much in play in this zoning application. At the June 4, 2024 town meeting, for example, the mayor said to the audience, and I won't get the quote right, but I hope I get the gist of it, you said there is a serious legal issue in this zoning application or something to that effect.

Video Clip 3 [00:58:21] We all recognize it, but we're not addressing it. Why haven't you been willing to discuss the impact of the law on this zoning case? We stand ready to do that to understand why what we say controls. You don't think controls.

Video Clip 3 [00:58:37] I don't understand why an applicant who seeks to build a church in your town, a landowner who seeks to build a church ability in your town can't get a straight answer to this question. Why isn't R. LIPA or the Texas Religious Freedom Restoration act mandate that you approve the zoning request? I'm not debating that does. I'm just saying tell me why it doesn't.

Video Clip 3 [00:59:00] I hope that you'll engage me, Mr. Custer, with more than shaking your head no. I respect your right to tell me no, but I hope you'll engage me. That seems fair. I also want to talk about your zoning ordinariness. It's unevenly applied.

Video Clip 3 [00:59:16] The church believes it has been discriminated against by the town in its process and evaluation of the town's application design. For example, Fairview has a zoning classification that allows for sexually oriented businesses. It's chapter 4.04 of your code of ordinances, churches. But you don't have an existing specific classification for churches.

Video Clip 3 [00:59:42] Sexually oriented churches or businesses such as adult theaters and adult cabarets may be located in the special entertainment zoning Overlay district. That's section 14.02.751. Do I need to. I'll repeat it for you, Dr. Hubbard.

Landon [00:59:59] John, can you stop here?

John Dehlin [01:00:01] Oh yeah, I'd love to. I gotta make a comment there.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:00:04] Sexually oriented churches, I love that. Oops.

Landon [01:00:08] First of all, there's a couple things I want to say here. He, he, he is completely miss stating everything here. When he said that they sent out three letters. Two of those letters they sent out the night before this town council meeting. So they want a dialogue, yet they wait two months and then send a. An 81 page legal document to all of the city and then they want to have a dialogue immediately and decide this. Come on. That is disingenuous and he knows it. The church never brings anybody except lawyers to have a discussion. So why is the city going to engage in a, in a discussion with the church's lawyers before they've even made a vote?

Landon [01:00:54] They're not allowed to meet as a body to have a discussion. That's considered a town meeting. And these guys are all volunteers. So this is all on their own time that they're doing this. And so for the, the church to make that claim is just absolutely ridiculous. The church won't give out that they've asked for reports. The church refuses to give the reports until just before the meeting so that nobody has any time to review or have a discussion. What are they supposed to be discussing when the church won't give them the information that, that they need in order to, to. To make any of these decisions?

Landon [01:01:28] And then the adult entertainment churches are allowed in residential neighborhoods. They always have been. He knows that nobody has a special religious area. In fact, this place where the temple is being built, there's already two other churches and another one planned. This is, they call it church row. They have an area for churches. They're just saying they all need to be about the same size is what they're saying. They are being equal in that sense. And then to try to tie this to somehow sexually oriented buildings in the commercial district of town. I can tell you that none of these businesses would be allowed in a residential area.

Landon [01:02:06] So I don't even know what he's making an argument about here. They've zoned an area specifically for those businesses to keep them out of the residential areas.

John Dehlin [01:02:15] So can I just also say that if ever in the history of the world there was a sexual oriented business, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They want to monitor whether you masturbate, whether you have Sex, Whether you don't, when you have sex, who you have sex with, what type of sex is appropriate, who can't have sex and who can. And they're obsessed, the Mormon Church is obsessed with sex to the point that they're worried about whether people show their shoulders or not, whether they show their knees or not. And, and, and it, it's, it's a sex obsessed church. It's core to their business model because then all the shame and the repentance and the confessions and the punishments are all oriented around sex. And it's all tied to tithing and money and profit. So I think the Mormon Church is literally one of the world's leading sex oriented businesses.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:03:16] Is that fair?

Nemo [01:03:17] Is that.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:03:17] You heard him here. No. And I feel that the, the things he is saying are talking points from members. They're probably not going to hear, like most of us, all the intricate details that he's talking about. What they're going to hear is this town lets in a sexually oriented business, but it won't let in our temple. Right. There's a persecution point. I think that is the point of everything that he's saying is a membership.

Landon [01:03:43] The sexually oriented business has to meet all the codes. They have no exemptions. They can't go. RLUPA lets us as a sexually oriented business build whatever we want. They have to meet codes as well.

Nemo [01:03:54] Right?

John Dehlin [01:03:55] All right, well, this just seems lame.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:03:57] We get so passionate. Sorry.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [01:04:01] And the town ordinance specifically states that the town intends to protect the first amendment rights of sexually oriented businesses. You put that in your ordinance and I agree with you. I don't like sexual oriented businesses, but the law requires them to have first amendment rights.

Video Clip 4 [01:04:18] And you doesn't like sexual oriented businesses. He's representing one. Driving me crazy. What the heck?

Video Clip 4 [01:04:29] You acknowledge them in your ordinance, but did you know that a sexual oriented business, such as an adult cabaret does not need a conditional use permit for its business in Fairview? A church does.

Video Clip 4 [01:04:44] That's correct. They don't need one because they have to comply. They're not looking for any exemptions.

Video Clip 4 [01:04:49] The church is not. So for the church, the church can't even get the counselor, its attorney to discuss the first amendment and statutory rights in the town's position on those rights. So we could possibly come to an agreement. But unlike sexually oriented businesses, drilling for oil, hamburger joints, residential homes, assuming they've got zoning, they don't have to come to you and obtain approval because they've already got that approval. They got to comply with your rules, but they don't have to come down and do what we're doing, which is get a new zoning classification by requiring the church to seek approval for the right to exist in Fairview when dozens of other businesses don't. That sure looks like discrimination. It sure appears unlawful.

Video Clip 4 [01:05:34] Oh, my gosh.

Analyzing the Applicable Zoning Regulations

Video Clip 4 [01:05:35] Let's talk about the applicable regulations and the compliance by the church. In my opinion, the town's regulations applicable to the church are ambiguous. They focus on the wrong issues, and they ignore state and federal law. Let me explain why.

Video Clip 4 [01:05:55] The cup states that the zoning classification may, quote, contain such requirements and safeguards as are necessary to protect adjacent property. Adjoining property, excuse me, end quote. That's one of the things that you can consider under your ordinance. Section 14.02517 of the town's Code of Ordinances identifies 10 factors the council, quote, may take into consideration in granting or denying the church's cup application.

Video Clip 4 [01:06:32] The church's application plainly satisfies the first nine of those factors. But also that ordinance allows. In considering the church's application, you can take in consideration two other things. One is the aesthetic appearance of the use, and the other is the other sensory effects that the use may have on the established character of the neighborhood, its property, and the property within the town as a whole.

Video Clip 4 [01:07:04] I asked the question to myself, what do those standards mean and how are they applied? Do any of you know how they're done? Has someone interpreted those words in another document that I haven't seen? Because I haven't seen it? These factors are assessments, not facts. They're not criteria. And without criteria, how do you ground the assessment that something is not aesthetically acceptable? What is the factual basis in which sensory effects may have a negative effect? Only quote, established character of the neighborhood.

Video Clip 4 [01:07:42] Without criteria, you are given unbounded discretion. And that, in my opinion, is a legal problem. It ignores the right of your landowners and your citizens to understand the basis for your decisions. I mean, we're in Texas. Property rights of owners are essentially sacrosanct.

Video Clip 4 [01:08:05] This assessment in the CUP doesn't even consider the rights of the landowner to develop its property. These factors, in the lack of guardrails to apply them uniformly and consistently, in my opinion, violate the railway LUPA and the Texas Religious Freedom Restoration act and place a substantial burden on the church. Let's talk a minute about the application of the ordinance and then complaints by the citizens.

John Dehlin [01:08:34] Okay, can someone just summarize what he just said? What he's Basically what he just argued before we go on to the next point.

Landon [01:08:42] Well, to me, he. He just argued that the rules of the town, the ordinances, are discriminatory because they make churches file for a conditional use permit. And I just saw in the comments Houston saying that, that I was wrong, that the Fairview requires a cup. Yes, I know Fairview requires a cup. Every city in the country requires a cup for building churches. They're building in residential areas, they're public buildings in residential areas, they're big buildings. They have special needs that a standard house. When you go build a house, you don't have to go get a cup, but you have to conform to all the rules.

Landon [01:09:22] Churches are trying to put in places where they don't belong. That's why they need conditional use permits. In every town they have to have a conditional use permit. The only town that the church did not go after a cup for was Heber Valley, Utah. And in that case, they knew they couldn't get a cup, so they went for a legislative development agreement which allows them to bypass all of the cup. But that requires. The only reason they were able to get an LDA was because they had a completely all LDS city or county council that allowed them to just bypass all the rules. That's why they were able to do it.

Landon [01:09:59] So he's making the argument, oh, these rules are loose and capricious and, and these zoning laws are exactly the same zoning laws we have seen in every single other residential community that the church tries to, to purchase. We did an episode where we had a, a transcript from a guy who was interviewing the people building the temple. And he said, specifically in the interview, he said, oh, we in the United States, it's easy to just go into a residential area and, and get a cup and override all of the zoning laws. This is what they intend to do. This is their plan to go in and do it.

Landon [01:10:36] So yes, they need a cup. This is not out of the ordinary. This is what everyone had to do. McKinney. The Muslims just asked for a cup in McKinney right next door, and they were denied for a 37,000 foot building that was only 40ft tall because they said it was too big. They had to apply for a cup as well. This is standard operating procedure.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:11:00] Yeah. And again, the town is happy to grant this conditional use permit, but to grant it to their specifications. Not 173ft. Right. It's. It's standard that a church requests this and then is given permission. Like the stake center. That definitely is above the height limit, but the town said, sure, build your stake center. It can be a little higher than everything else. That's all they're saying about the temple. It can be larger. We expect to accommodate churches, but it can't be that large.

John Dehlin [01:11:32] Got it. All right, let's go back to the clip. Turn your volumes up.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [01:11:38] Despite my concerns about your your ordinance, if fairly applied, I believe that the proposed temple satisfies the CEP factors. The temple will be on what is referred to by some as church road. It will be surrounded by three other churches. The proposed use could not be any more consistent with the character of the neighborhood as voted on and approved by you or your predecessor.

Video Clip 5 [01:12:07] Yes, it's near residential neighborhood, but from the beginning of this country and long before, churches have been built primarily in residential neighborhoods because that's where the people live. The supreme Court of Texas long ago declared, quote, excluding churches from residential districts does not promote the health, health, the safety, the morals or the general welfare of the community.

Video Clip 5 [01:12:35] To my knowledge, that is still good law and common sense. And the the zoning ordinance states in your zoning orange it states that churches and temples can be located in any zoning district in Fairview, including neighborhood. But some appoints are. So let's move on to another complaint. Some opponents might say it's not consistent with the character of the neighborhood because it's just too big. Let's talk about that for a Second. The not one inch slogan misunderstands the law. Under section 14.0 2.512 of the ordinance, the 35 foot height restriction in Re 1 district applies only to permitted uses, not conditional uses like churches.

Video Clip 5 [01:13:27] This council or your predecessor council didn't violate the town's ordinances when it approved the 150 foot, 154 foot bell tower for the Creekwood United Methodist Church. And nothing in the ordinance prohibits the simmer height of the proposed temple.

Video Clip 5 [01:13:42] That's the bell tower.

Video Clip 5 [01:13:44] There's an example of it right around here. Here it's showing up here. Less than five miles from this temple is another church building which is very similar in size. It's the First McKinney Baptist Church.

Video Clip 5 [01:13:55] Not in Fairview.

Video Clip 5 [01:13:56] It's not in first, it's not in Fairview, but it's in the same zip code and it's about five miles away. I've driven by this church for years. I've attended the church. I've been and out of the church and I've never thought it was out of place in our community. It's located within single family homes and I've never heard anyone refer to it as some of the words that these folks have used about the Proposed temple.

Video Clip 5 [01:14:16] That being a monster, they never show a side view.

Video Clip 5 [01:14:21] Citizens need to have community services for their neighborhood, such as water and communications, and you provided them. You have placed water towers and radio towers right next to home. Citizens also need to have religious services. So this is here. This is. Take a moment. You can see what they all think. You've seen them before. Citizens also have a great need for religious services in the neighborhood. In fact, during the COVID 19 pandemic, Governor Abbott declared that churches and religious services to be, quote, essential services to our communities, like emergency services, water services, and grocery services. As you'll recall, essential services could never be affected by any regulation by a county or a city or someone else.

Video Clip 5 [01:15:12] This temple will have minimal impact on residential neighborhoods. We have done studies on this. The steeple will not be intrusive. It will peek out over the tops of the trees. We sold your photographs at, and you'll see it clearly when you drive down Stacy Road. But we have a tradition in Texas of building churches.

Video Clip 5 [01:15:33] It's like five miles away,

Video Clip 5 [01:15:38] like some of the people near your homes there. We've shown a number of these throughout North Texas. Many examples exist of large churches. Even the mega churches, which are built next to residential areas, have tall steeples. The temple is not a mega church, but like many other churches around, it's important that it has some height because the heights of its temples are meaningful, symbolic to the church members. Let's talk about the application of the law, the denial.

John Dehlin [01:16:11] So he's basically saying, you know, it's not too big. Right.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:16:15] And then you have water towers, you have radio towers, and to go to the temple is as essential as information from the radio tower and water from the water tower.

Nemo [01:16:27] Okay. Yeah.

Landon [01:16:28] And I want to point out none of those structures are building occupied buildings. They have a completely different code than occupied buildings.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:16:35] And they're not lit and they're not solid.

John Dehlin [01:16:39] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. This just feels like. Again, when Jesus was criticizing people, wasn't he normally criticizing, like, the. The lawyers who were litigious, who were technical, who. Who violated the spirits of the laws, Focusing on the technicalities. Am I wrong there?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:17:01] No, you're right. A lot of people have said, you know, Jesus would just build a smaller temple and. And call it done, because, as you'll see later, the members stand up and they're just begging to be able to have the temple. They need the temple so much. So petition your own church for a smaller design, and then you can have your temple right away.

Guest [01:17:19] Yeah.

Landon [01:17:20] And I want to point out that he is arguing that the temple is not allowed in their community. He's saying you're not allowing it. That's not what they're saying. They're saying it has to meet the height and. And the codes that all the other churches on that same row are applying by. That's what we're asking of you. We're not saying you can't build the temple, and we're not saying you can't build that temple. It just needs to be over on the other side of town, where we have a commercial district that allows much taller buildings like the building that you're trying to build. And to make the argument, well, McKinney did it over there.

Landon [01:17:53] You notice he pointed out the church in McKinney and said, well, it's the same zip code. Well, this body doesn't operate by zip code. They operate by city boundaries, and that's their area. They have nothing to do with what happened in McKinney. And as we just said, McKinney just voted down last month a moss that was 40ft tall and smaller than this building and said it was too large. So I don't know how he's making the argument that you can build it in that they can build stuff in McKinney when they just turned down something very similar.

John Dehlin [01:18:23] Yeah. All right, let's keep going.

Nemo [01:18:26] Purchase application would impose a substantial burden because the location and design of this temple was motivated by religious belief. I was surprised somewhat at the last hearing that after the mayor said he was going to hear from Fairview residents, one of the first people he called was someone who said he was from Britain. And that resident said that steeples are not required by the church doctrine, and therefore, denying the application would not impose a substantial burden.

Nemo [01:19:03] If the opponent understood the law, he would have known that steeples not being required, even if that were true, is irrelevant. The Ray Lupa and the Texas statute protect all religiously motivated conduct, not just conduct that's required or compelled by the church's doctrine.

Nemo [01:19:22] The Texas statute clearly says, according to courts, that religious exercise need not be a, quote, central part or central requirement of the person's sincere religious belief. The Supreme Court has also said that town councils have no business deciding what practices are central to the church's belief. That that court also said neither do the courts have any business deciding what's central to their beliefs.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:19:50] Yeah, stop it right there. That's kind of the crux of his argument in that he's saying, you guys don't get to tell us, us what our core beliefs are. We can tell you whatever we want, and then we can build accordingly to that belief. We can say that our building has to be 5,000ft tall and painted orange. That's how we access Jesus. You have no right and no court can tell us that is not our core belief. So if we say that we need the steeple that high, that's what we need to worship. That's our core belief. You have to just go by what we say. Do you think that describes it accurately, Landon?

Nemo [01:20:22] Yeah.

Landon [01:20:23] Yes. They're basically saying we override any civic authority. The church authorities are higher than any civic authorities. Interpretation of the law, and this is the danger of this Ruloopa, if it continues on, is the church at any point can say, nope, that's a tenant, that's a core belief of ours, or that's a tenant of our faith. And they can override any law. They can always be ahead of the law, no matter what the, the laws change. They can override that. That this is a threat on the First Amendment of, of a separation of church and state, because basically then the state is, is giving its right to zoning and codes, which is a civic duty.

Landon [01:21:03] They're. They're giving that to any religious zealot who wants to come in and make any rule that they want to and they can build. And one thing RLUPA says is not only is it churches, but anyone in their own home who, who prays in their home has the same right. Therefore, anyone who wants to break any civic code, they can't get the, the, the garage built next to the fence because they don't have the right setback, just says, I pray in that garage. It's a tenant of my belief. And they can override any city code simply by claiming it's a tenet of their faith. That's a ridiculous argument. And goes that that just would take down the entire constitutional separation of church and state.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:21:42] That's why this is really important, honestly. And it almost might be seen as a test case depending on how far this goes. But there are protections in RUPA that they don't talk about that protect towns from having to make extreme concessions. They don't mention those very often, but as Landon pointed out before, RUPA was supposed to be a shield. For example, the mosque in McKinney that was voted down. You know, I don't know all the details there, but if there were a religion that came in, in a town and absolutely discriminated, RLUPA would protect that. But instead, a large megachurch, our church is used a Mega corporation, I guess I should say, is using it as a sword to beat down any civic process and override it. And that should be frightening to almost anyone.

John Dehlin [01:22:26] Yeah, yeah. It's just too much power. Yeah. All right. How much more do we have at the attorney, Rebecca?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:22:34] He just kind of goes on. I mean, we could probably stop it here. You've kind of got the gist of it just using Rupa. And he does go on now to talk about how it is a core belief in our religion, the height of the steeple, but it's totally fine. I think everybody has the idea and if they want to see the whole thing, they can watch the Mormon newscast. It's over on Mormonish. I think we can now move to the mayor's response.

The Mayor Responds to the Church's Arguments

John Dehlin [01:22:57] How does he justify that, that the steeple height is doctrine? I. I mean, I kind of want to jump.

Landon [01:23:01] He doesn't.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:23:02] He doesn't have to. He doesn't have to. As long as he says it is, it is. There's no justification. We can't rule on that. We can't weigh in on that. A church can simply say what their belief is and it can be a new belief. They could decide something today and say it's core. This is sort of what he's. The avenue that he's taking.

John Dehlin [01:23:20] He asserts it. He does assert that the steeple height is doctrinal.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:23:26] Well, just that it's a core belief. It's our right to have a steeple because that's what we need to worship. It's our right to. To say what we need to worship, I think is what he's trying.

Landon [01:23:34] In the 81 page brief, they actually quote and say that the civic government has no right to question the truthfulness of what the church is claiming. Yeah, they're saying you can't even. You can't even question us as to whether this is a core belief. That's not your right or your place. So it doesn't matter if the steeple is a core doctrine or not. You can't question it. The mere fact that we say it's a sincere belief, it's now beyond questioning and it's beyond reproach.

Nemo [01:24:03] Right.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:24:03] So now you can kind of see what the town is up against. And I think it's a good place to stop. And like I said, you can go and find this other places to finish watching. But then the mayor, the mayor of Fairview, just such an awesome person. If you want to play that clip, we'll see the town's point of view.

John Dehlin [01:24:20] Okay. So he's going to be sharing the town's point of view here.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:24:22] Yep. This is the mayor speaking for the town.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] What's his name?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:24:26] Mayor Henry Lesner.

Landon [01:24:28] And this was just after the lawyers.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:24:30] Just after the lawyer, the mayor speaks. And then we'll get into comments from residents and non residents and members. But this is the mayor just kind of addressing everything the lawyer, the church's lawyer has said for about 20 minutes. And then the Lloyd. The mayor comes on and speaks for just a few minutes.

John Dehlin [01:24:44] Okay, perfect. All right, let's play. Let's play the mayor.

▶ Video Clip 6

Video Clip 6 [01:24:49] Anyone else? All right, I have some remarks I'm going to read. And this is to educate folks on both sides of this issue. Have a little different opinion than some of the things you've heard. So first of all, I want to address the hundreds of Fairview residents who have studied and researched data related to the LDS history of temple building.

Video Clip 6 [01:25:17] First, I'm so proud of the hundreds of Fairview residents who have studied and researched data related to the LDS history of temple building. You've kept your focus on the issue at hand. This is a zoning issue, not an issue related to anything to do with the LDS corporation.

Video Clip 6 [01:25:36] Thank you for your signs of strong support as the council works through this issue. I also want to thank those in our surrounding cities. Cities as well as groups and individuals around the country and around the world, and current and former LDS members who have stated their support for the town of Fairview's position on this matter.

Video Clip 6 [01:25:58] The issue of revising our zoning ordinance for this proposed building is the biggest crisis that has ever impacted our town. I personally have heard from Fairview folks in every. Every corner of our town encouraging me and the council to resist this intrusion into the residential area of our town. I'll give you a copy of this if you need it. So you don't need a copy.

Mayor Addresses LDS Members in Attendance

Video Clip 6 [01:26:23] Now I want to address the thousands potentially. I don't know how many people are outside, but I know there were thousands last time of LDS folks who are here somewhere in the vicinity of this meeting or listening online time.

Video Clip 6 [01:26:38] First.

Video Clip 6 [01:26:39] Welcome to Fairview. This is a great place. Keep hydrated tonight. It's very hot out there, so we're worried about you. We went to extraordinary measures tonight to try to ensure the safety of people and get as many people in this room and get as many everybody. By the way, Richard will get a chance. He's here to talk a little bit about our town that you may or may not know. Because many of the folks supporting the LDS position are not from Fairview matter of fact, the vast majority are not.

Video Clip 6 [01:27:11] The east side of our town is all residential with large lots on large or large homes on large lots. You hear about zoning Re 1. What does that mean? That means residential estate, one acre. We have Re 1, Re 1.5, Re 2 and then areas over further east or even further, less dense than that. Four acre lots, six acre lots.

Video Clip 6 [01:27:37] The maximum home height in this area allowed is 35ft. And we hold people's to the do that. We have families with longhorns, alpacas, horse farms and donkeys all over town. There is no sewer system or storm drainage system in that part of town. I'm talking about the east side of town on the east side of Greenville.

Video Clip 6 [01:28:00] Out here

Video Clip 6 [01:28:03] there are no businesses, there's no multifamily dwellings. And you've heard us talk about our dark skies. We take pride in that. As a matter of fact, just last weekend the star party was held in our town. You can actually see the stars in our town.

Video Clip 6 [01:28:19] It's important to us.

Video Clip 6 [01:28:22] Zoning is tightly enforced. And all building, all building is looked at closely to make sure that it will not have a negative effect on the neighbors. The objective is to maintain the country feel on that side of town that our residents move to Fairview.

Video Clip 6 [01:28:42] For

Video Clip 6 [01:28:44] now, that's the east side of town, the residential side where this temple is proposed to be built. On the west side, the side of town that you're sitting in right now, this is our commercial area where we have single and multifamily dwellings, shopping, restaurants, hotels. We actually have some corporate offices recently.

Video Clip 6 [01:29:05] There is nothing new about the way our zone, our town is zoned. It was done this way intentionally. And it's been this way for decades, maybe 70 years. So this is not something that we just came up with yesterday. This is the way the town was laid out. And it's why people move here, to keep the country feel on that side of town.

Video Clip 6 [01:29:29] So if you were here at the meeting, I have a request. I would ask you to walk about 50 yards about that way, go north and of the building we're in to the steps of Fairview Town Hall. And I've had some of your folks up there, which is in our commercial area, look up at that town hall.

Video Clip 6 [01:29:56] It is 65ft hall tall, coincidentally same as what the temple is proposed to be and contains 22000 square feet of office space. The building that your leaders from Salt Lake City are proposing is 65ft tall and about 45,000 square feet. Surrounded by gleaming white marble and topped by 109 foot spire the proposed temple is building itself is literally twice as large as our town hall.

Video Clip 6 [01:30:31] And then you stick the 109 foot spile on top, it takes it up to 174ft which is taller than our water towers. This proposed gigantic building is to be located in the residential side of town ESA, where the maximum allowable height again is 35ft. Every home over there conforms with this. You can actually get up on a drone and find homes that have flat roofs. Because of this limitation, we enforce it at this location. This proposed building would be so out of scale, so out of place that it would look like some alien civilization has dropped it onto that property.

Video Clip 6 [01:31:15] I'm sorry if you don't like that, but that's what it looks like it would. The crux. This is the crux of our zoning problem. It is hard to imagine how an architect or site planner or simple casual observation observer could not see how out of place that building would BE. Giving the RE1 zoning.

Video Clip 6 [01:31:35] Now again, for the LDS folks listening, this is kind of our side of what you heard a little bit ago. Your representative's position with our residents from the very start has been if you don't like this, if you don't approve this building as is, we will see you. If y' all remember the second information center. Many of you people that are in this room were there, your local LDS leaders I'm talking to the LDS folks in the room have taken the position if our residents don't like the proposed gigantic building, then move.

Video Clip 6 [01:32:09] An LDS family would be more than happy to pay a premium for your property to live so close to a temple. People who move to Fairview, they raise their families here and they tend to stay. So we have very long term residents in this community. There's, you know, we have new, new developments coming in, but when people get here, they tend to stay.

Video Clip 6 [01:32:32] This is why we are pushing so hard and why they are pushing so hard against this proposed building. Your attorneys from Salt Lake City are very smooth calmly starting our conversation with the fact that they've dealt with municipalities many, many times. If y' all remember that conversation and essentially have forced these communities to take an unwanted large building.

Video Clip 6 [01:32:59] What a thing to be proud of. Their message to us is fighting this gigantic building proposed for Fairview is really a waste of our time. And you heard that tonight. I think the word for this attitude is extreme arrogance.

Video Clip 6 [01:33:14] And it's what we in Fairview will remember about the LDS representatives. I would also add shame on the local leaders for stabbing our town in the back. They knew exactly the impact this building would have on our town and obviously don't give a flip, which is really disappointing.

Video Clip 6 [01:33:35] There's no secret what the town of Fairview would have done with us or how we would have reacted. And if somebody didn't tell the folks from Salt Lake City, shame on you. Fairview has eight religious buildings in our small town.

Video Clip 6 [01:33:51] One of which is the LDS meeting house. The town and its residents have had no issues with any of them. In fact, the current LDS meeting house is the tallest building at 68ft in our residential zone. We have offered a CUP conditional use permit for the proposed buildings. That includes a 42 foot maximum building height, which by the way is the height of the Chase Oaks Church with the spire going up to 68ft with 42% impervious coverage of the property.

Video Clip 6 [01:34:24] The size the Dallas Temple, which most of us have been to see multiple times, is close to what might work for Fairview in our residential zone. We have suggested that. We have also suggested that if for some reason this building must be built in Fairview, which we're not sure why, but for the LDS corporate folks in Salt Lake City to save face, this large building as is would probably fit into the commercial zone with few issues that's on this side of camp.

Video Clip 6 [01:34:59] So I asked the LDS folks listening tonight to join with the numerous LDS groups around the country that are protesting the use of LDS's organization great wealth to target smaller communities. This is happening all over the country right now.

Video Clip 6 [01:35:15] Sometimes threatening to bankrupt the town that has happened to try to force zoning changes so they can erect gigantic buildings in residential zones. Most of those churches that. Are these pictures ever in commercial zones, by the way, they're not in residential neighborhoods.

Video Clip 6 [01:35:33] If the commercial. If the town of Fairview and its residents are somehow forced to accept this misplaced gigantic building, thousands of folks from this area passing by that building every day will only see and remember the legacy of LDS arrogance.

Video Clip 6 [01:35:50] I suspect that is not the legacy that you want to leave with. So I ask one more time, please, if you're here from the LDS community, Please walk about 50 yards up to our town hall, take a look at that building, double the size and put 109 foot spiral on top. That is what the issue is. The building is way too big, way out of place for that location. We've given options what could be done. I think the reasonable options end of my speech.

Video Clip 6 [01:36:27] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:36:28] Oh my gosh. I just want to stand and applaud that guy. He used Words misplaced, threatening, extreme arrogance, bankrupting towns. The Mormon church is acting completely abusive and unchristlike in every way. Rebecca, your thoughts?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:36:49] Yeah, I. I mean, he didn't literally get a standing ovation, but I think everybody watching at home, and you might. Might have seen my comment there pop up. As I said, the first time we've ever seen it. Watch parties and stake centers. And I just wonder if for the first time, some of the faithful members were like, this doesn't sound like religious persecution. It sounds like somebody trying to protect his town as an elected official. And the mayor understands. I thought. I think you saw that comment from cultural hall pop up. The playbook. There is a playbook, and we've seen it on it over and over in city after city.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:37:24] And this city, Fairview knew the playbook ahead of time, and this is why they're able to, you know, speak to it like they do. But, yeah, this mayor is a hero, and he's calm, cool, collected, and. And saying the truth, so we really, really admire him. And the entire town council, there's incredible pressure on them. They have been told they're going to be sued. They know that they. The only defense all these towns have is to shore up their town or city council so that that council can do what they're supposed to do, and that's represent everyone in the community. Not be bullied, not be bought off.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:37:59] We've seen that. Not vote with their religious party. We saw people on the county commission in Heber that were actually standing next to President Nelson with a golden shovel in their hand for the Heber groundbreaking. And then they went on to vote boat. You know, things like that. This is why Fairview is unique. I call it the little town that could. This is why everyone is watching. And I will say again, they stand on the backs of Heber Cody, Lone Mountain, everyone that has fought this fight before. Somebody sent me a text the other day where they said, you know, understanding this hierarchy of Heber, Cody, everybody that's gone before and.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:38:34] And gone through this, and the person said to me, how do you kill a lion? Well, it takes. Takes hyenas. The first hyena goes down. The other ones watch and learn. And then they're able to do what they need to do and what's best for them. And I think that's what Fairview is.

John Dehlin [01:38:52] Landon, anything you want to add?

Landon [01:38:54] We were supposed to be in Fairview. We had that planned. And then due to a hospitalization in Rebecca's family, we couldn't make it. My biggest regret of this whole process is that I was not in Fairview to shake that man's hand.

John Dehlin [01:39:08] Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:39:09] Someday I hope we'll be able to.

John Dehlin [01:39:11] What a hero. What a legend he really is. Okay, so what, what do we have next?

Public Comments Begin at the Council Meeting

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:39:17] So then after this, this period comes the open discussion, and there were 70 people that spoke. I have to say I found a post on Reddit from somebody named Kim in Texas, and she had synthesized all the information from this meeting, and it was absolutely helpful as we prepared for this episode. So thank you. Kim, we don't know who you are, but you really did a great job. And I was able to count up There were about 70 people that spoke and stood up. They had two minutes to speak, and 40 of those were residents of Fairview. But 30 of those were from out of town.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:39:55] Isn't that interesting? I know some were from. From close there, you know, McKinney or Allen right there. But a lot of them mentioned driving in. And again, that's because the call went out from area reps to stake presidents all over, even in other temple districts, and said, come to this meeting, send your email, show your support. So it's that big, you know, kind of en masse sort of a thing. So we have, I think about six clips from people that were. Are speaking in behalf of the temple. Six that are speaking, saying, please relocate it. Please obey our zoning codes. You can decide, John, how you want to show those back.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:40:31] And a representation. Yeah. And we can talk. And then at the very end, we'll show the vote, which takes space very quickly. But again, this is just to give you a sense of the meeting, the important issues. The entire meeting, all five hours, is available on the Mormon newscast if you feel like sitting through it or speeding through it.

John Dehlin [01:40:48] So, okay, so you. So this first one is a member. Do you want to set up kind of your description of this first one?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:40:55] I can't see the description, so I'm going to leave that to you. John, you can just read my notes.

John Dehlin [01:41:00] Member will continue to love her community. Is there anything watch for here, Rebecca?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:41:05] Yep, exactly. And. And a lot of the LDS members did stand up and say that I love my town and I hope we can all get along and despite what happens, we'll continue to love you. And that's the sentiment for everybody that the, the worst collateral damage of all of this are the relationships in the town. And we've seen this in Cody and Heber, where they are changed forever. The landscape look and feel as far as community relations are changed. So, you know, people feel this. So I thought this woman did a good job of saying, you know, I still want to love you guys, but you'll understand why we're doing this when you see the blessing of our temple, right?

John Dehlin [01:41:38] All right, let's play the first clip

▶ Video Clip 7

Video Clip 7 [01:41:41] and give me your name and your address, please.

Video Clip 7 [01:41:45] Hi, my name is Nikki Butler. I live at 681 Oakmont Court. I'm a resident of Fairview, and I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I support the temple. I'm proud to say that. But I have worried about how to express that support tonight. My heart breaks over how contentious this has become them. I do not want to say anything that will add to that spirit of contention or this us against them feeling that we have. You're my mayor, too. The second most important of all commandments is love thy neighbor. I love all of you. I love all of

Video Clip 7 [01:42:29] I.

Video Clip 7 [01:42:31] You're all my neighbors, whether you and I love you all whether you oppose or support the temple. And I will love you no matter what the outcome is tonight. For those of you who oppose the temple, please know that I do not resent you. There is no hatred in my heart. In fact, I understand why you may oppose the temple, especially given what's been said about it.

Video Clip 7 [01:42:56] I hope that some of the facts that have been presented. Presented tonight might ease some of that opposition and answer some of those questions. Even as I try to understand why you may oppose the temple, I do not expect you to fully understand why I support my temple or how much it means to me. But please do not let others speak for us.

Video Clip 7 [01:43:15] Like many of you here tonight, I'm an active member of this Fairview community, members of my faith, and I have served alongside of you at town cleanup, at the voting polls, during elections, and on interfaith councils, and in our neighbors and neighborhoods, in our schools. No matter the outcome tonight, we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will still be ready to serve at the annual Fairview town cleanup. We will continue to cheer on families in our neighborhoods, and we will continue to advocate for kids in the school. I promise you, we will continue to support and serve this community that we love.

Video Clip 7 [01:43:50] Thank you. Thank you, Nikki.

John Dehlin [01:43:52] Okay, Rebecca, tell both you and Landon. Tell me why you thought that clip was.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:43:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:57] Worthwhile showing.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:43:57] Important. I think that's important because I think that represents most members, you know, wonderful people. They love their town. But did you hear her say. I'm trying to understand why you oppose it. We have told you why they have told you why they oppose it. It's simply the zoning. But unfortunately, if you listen to what she said at the beginning, she said there's misunderstandings and I believe they feel that people are suspicious or don't understand what happens in the temple and that's why there is the opposition. And that speaks directly to religious persecution. So again, this wonderful woman, she just said, I don't understand why you oppose it.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:44:31] They have got to hear it's simply the zoning. And if active members would then petition their own leaders and say it sounds like they'll let us have it. If you just make a few changes, that will be great for everybody. That's why I included that because I feel a lot of members, wonderful people, but they are sort of being misled by misinformation and they, they really don't understand that it simply is a civic and zoning issue.

John Dehlin [01:44:54] Yeah, it's like they're tone deaf. It's like they can't read the room. It's like they're not listening. I'll share a comment from Jenny Reinke. Hey, Jenny. She's a tick tock superstar. She writes, they talk to talk without walking the walk. Love is not a bunch of words, it's actions. This hostile colonization of a small town is an act of war. If they loved people, they would stop. And I agree, Jenny, you know, she says, I love you no matter what. I don't resent you. I understand why you would oppose it. We've been good neighbors. This is all like Christian dog whistling, Christian verbiage.

John Dehlin [01:45:32] But if my interpretation of Jesus is, he would care a lot more, more about your actions than your words. Because if you come across as nice and come across as kind and you use your relief society voice, but you're traumatizing an entire town and refusing to listen to them, bullying them, terrorizing them financially, legally, civically, that's not love. So, like, don't say, don't say, don't use the words. You love them and, and, and you, you, you, you care about them and you don't resent them. That's just words. It's like the, the drubbing that you're giving my face with your fist makes it hard to hear the words you're saying in your relief Society voice. Landon, what do you think?

Landon [01:46:22] Yeah, I agree with that. They're, they're not walking the walk. Look, there's a win win here. Everybody could win. The church builds a temple similar to Palo Alto on that site. They get it where they want it. This the tap, it meets the town regulations. They have a temple. Their youth don't have to drive far. The neighbors get a building that's in line with all the other buildings on that row. It's a beautiful, well maintained building. Nothing wrong with that. There's a win win here. But one side refuses because to them, if they have to give anything, they're giving in against prophetic revelation and therefore that's a loss to them, even though they're getting what they want.

John Dehlin [01:47:05] All right.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:47:05] And God has changed his mind. There are many temples. They don't talk about him, but there are a lot of temples that were slated to go one place. Whether it's town pushback or other issues that are moved so, you know, or lowered as important. Lowered. There are many changes. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:47:21] Okay. All right. This next clip is a member concerned about news sources using the word Mormon. Let's roll. Let's roll the tape because that's a really important issue.

Residents and Members Speak on the Temple

▶ Video Clip 8

Video Clip 8 [01:47:35] Thanks for listening to me once again. My name is Jason Jones. I live at 380 Collinwood in Fairview, Texas. The purpose of my remarks tonight is for everybody here, you as the council, but also all of the Fairview members. My hope is to be able to improve our communication and maintain a better sense of unity.

Video Clip 8 [01:47:56] And the way that I propose we do that is please to try and focus on describing things as they are or as they really will be. Either of those two, I should say. I feel a tremendous sense of sympathy and some tearing at my heartstrings over the difficult conversations that have happened. I respect everybody's ability to have form their opinion and to express it. But my heart breaks when I know that some of those opinions are not based on accurate information.

Video Clip 8 [01:48:32] For example, the 80,000 number that has been spoken about tonight of attendance is the hope for the open house of the temple. That's before it goes into service where it will be open to everybody, member and non member is a one time event. As we've also heard, the routine service at the temple serves a much smaller number. Right. 50 to 100 an hour, roughly.

Video Clip 8 [01:48:57] I have huge sympathy for those who will live close to the temple and are trying to understand why. I appreciate those who are really trying to understand that and would like to add a key to understanding if imperial information is a reliable source. In 2018, President Russell M. Nelson, the church president, asked everybody who was a member to cease using the nickname Mormon. If you are using a source that is branded with Mormon or something like that, it's not reliable. Please talk to us local members thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:49:34] That almost felt like an attack on Mormon stories are on Mormonish, Mormonish, Mormon discussions.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:49:39] Nemo, the Mormon, Mormon stories. All of us embrace and use that name because that's who we are. And again, it's this misinformation. Both sides are saying you have misinformation. And right there, he's saying anybody that has the word Mormon in, you know, their show name or whoever they are, that they can't be trusted and they can't be listened to because the church, in their letters they put out, tell the members only listen to approved sources. And that gives you that woman who we just heard where she says, I don't know why you're opposing it. You don't know why they're opposing it. If you only read the letters you're getting from your stake.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:50:17] That's disingenuous. They're not giving people the full scope of what's happening. And we had one woman stand up at a council meeting last time who said she had sent her children out to canvas. She spoke a couple times, and apparently they had a bad experience. Experience because they mentioned to some people they were canvasing. It's not that big. You know what I mean? Again, those children that went out canvassing are not armed with the correct kind of information to even have any kind of dialogue. It's not about religion. It's about zoning. So, yeah, that was definitely a shot across the bow.

John Dehlin [01:50:51] A lot of people. And I want to get you in here, Landon. A lot of people were really triggered. I wrote it. Iring voice, you know, Henry B. Eyring voice, where the voice trembles. But so many people just immediately wrote, Rachel wrote the voice crack. Susan Mowers wrote the Mormon voice. Just Greats Wingman wrote that voice. Brb. And then Jenny wrote, his general conference voice is killing me. Like, that's. That's a really triggering thing for, I guess, former Mormons. I don't know. Yeah, just. Just that. That Henry B. Eyring trembling voice. I just also want to thank 7892 Kirby. He writes. He or she writes, thank you for all for covering this. I really hope those in the Stake center watch parties got to hear why this was denied. Y. I honestly think the members have been unfairly strung along through this.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:51:45] Y 100%.

John Dehlin [01:51:46] Landon, what do you want to add?

Landon [01:51:48] I just thought it was strange that he said you couldn't trust any sources with the name Mormon in them from a religion that follows the Book of Mormon. So,

John Dehlin [01:52:00] yeah, I mean, it's just Like a couple years ago that the Mormon Church spent like a billion dollars on the I'm a Mormon campaign, and that was led by prophet Sierra and revelator Thomas S. Monson. It's just so dumb for them to expect the world to say the Church of Jesus Christ letter states every time they want to describe the church. It's just dumb. It's insensitive, it's tone deaf stuff. It's gonna change. And it's just silly that that's really how this dude wants to use his two minutes. Really, you want to call out the world for referencing. I mean, even. Even the Sally Tribune calls their Mormon news summary Mormon land.

John Dehlin [01:52:38] And that's faithful. Faithful Mormons like Peggy Fletcher Stack that. That have chosen to call it that. So it's just again, more tone derivative, deaf, weird. Talk about weird in today's political climate. The Mormon Church is acting really weird lately, and I think Russell M. Nelson and Down A jokes are kings of weird.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:52:58] Yeah, no, I agree. And it's funny. We follow a lot of news, of course, and I've noticed that when people get the name wrong, they say the Church of the Latter Day or the Church of the Latter Day Saints. They do it across the board. Once you start looking for it, you'll hear it over and over. And I think it's because they're saying, saying call us Latter Day Saints. And so then news sources and people who are, you know, giving commentary call them the Church of the Latter Day. So they basically take Jesus Christ right out of it, which, you know, you can read into that what you want. But we do have some clips from people that are opposing the temple. I don't know if you want to juxtapose them or go through all.

John Dehlin [01:53:30] Let's go through them, because I think they're all really good and they're short. Let's go to the next one. Landon, did you want to add anything to that previous comment clip?

Landon [01:53:38] No.

Nemo [01:53:39] No.

John Dehlin [01:53:39] Okay. Okay.

Nemo [01:53:40] All right.

John Dehlin [01:53:40] I. I like these member clips, so let's keep playing them.

Nemo [01:53:43] Sir, my name is Rainey Rogers. I'm from.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:53:46] Okay, pause for one second. Pause just for one second. Let me set this clip up. Since it's rainy so early on in the process, everyone on the city council, the town council in Fairview, received a letter from the mayor of McKinney. You may have seen this on our podcast. It was a gushing, glowing letter about Latter Day Saints and about how the town council asked absolutely needs to let this temple be built. There were phrases in it. People accused it of Being written by Chat GPT.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:54:14] Their charity knows no bounds. They're, you know, things like that. It was just over the top. We called it the gushing letter. But the point was, hey, town council of Fairview, I, the mayor of McKinney, say you need to build this. Right. Well, we kind of dug in and we found out that it was this gentleman, Rainey Rogers, who is a mayor pro temple over there in McKinney, who asked his friend, the McKinney mayor, to write this letter. So he's definitely influencing things over on the McKinney side. And the joke was made, God, if the mayor wants this so bad in McKinney, maybe we could do a land swap or something.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:54:49] Maybe the temple could be built in McKinney if they wanted it that bad. But. So this is the gentleman you're about to hear from, Reni Rogers, and he definitely is involved in promoting the idea that it should be built in. In Fairview.

John Dehlin [01:55:02] All right, let's roll the tape. Thanks, Rebecca.

▶ Video Clip 9

Video Clip 9 [01:55:07] I have been involved in city government for. Off and on for 20 years and been served on city council for eight years. I don't think I've ever seen the animus that I've felt from this city council towards a religious group in all my life. I just. And. And. And from. From. From your councilman Logdon, who. Who basically voted not even to have the preparation. You know, the. The. The city even make a presentation from the last time in June.

Video Clip 9 [01:55:38] He.

Video Clip 9 [01:55:39] He didn't want it.

Video Clip 9 [01:55:39] He.

Video Clip 9 [01:55:40] He voted against it. He. He just wanted to vote it down without even hearing from. From the church. Councilman Little, when the church was built here 13 years ago, y. Behind me were here against the church, saying that it was going to lower the property values, it was going to ruin their lives. None of which happened.

Video Clip 9 [01:56:00] And. And. And the. Our city attorney talked about the. The brick and mortars bell tower. Okay. How many people behind us were here to protest that? Not an inch higher. Right. How many people? None. Do you know. You know why they weren't here? Because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints wasn't building it. That's why.

Video Clip 9 [01:56:24] Don't. Don't tell me that this isn't a religious persecution. We feel it. And, And. And this is the great thing is you guys don't understand the law. You really don't. And. And what happens is the church. Who does understand the law. We understand. And we don't threaten people. Defending yourself is not a threat. Defending yourself from religious persecution is not a threat.

Video Clip 9 [01:56:47] Right.

Video Clip 9 [01:56:48] And. And. And ultimately, we're willing to pay a lot of money to, to defend our faith. And, and if you're willing to spend a lot of money to defend it, the loser pays. And, and, and yes, that temple will get built. I promise you that.

Video Clip 9 [01:57:03] Thank you, Ray.

Video Clip 9 [01:57:05] Nice to meet you.

John Dehlin [01:57:07] Holy shit buckets. That was outrageous. Landon, let's have you go first.

Landon [01:57:13] Well, first of all, you notice the last thing he said is loser pays. There is this, you know, if it's egregious that you might have to pay attorney fees. So that was a direct threat that we're going to sue you. And if you lose, you're going to have to pay all of our, your town's going to have to pay not only for your cost to defend it, but also our costs associated with this. And we're going to try to come after you for all the losses of construction and whatnot that we, that we lost. So this is a complete threat. It's interesting that he said no.

Landon [01:57:41] He's never seen a city that does this yet. They just voted down the mosque in his city. Zero. There were no votes for the mosque in his city right next door. He, he has a, a lot of things here that, you know, when he said that they, the same people were opposing the, his church and not the, the, not the bell tower. What's different, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is building this? No, what's different is it's in a different location that the other church was not on church row. It's these neighbors. And these neighbors have been there to fight. When the hospital went in, when they wanted to use multi use housing on that spot, when they tried to put the church there, they, they did oppose that, but they opposed every single one of the developments that wasn't residential.

Landon [01:58:29] And so they're consistent. They're consistently showing up saying this should be a residential. This is what we had it zoned for and planned for.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:58:38] Rebecca, I'm just sitting here with my popcorn. I just, I think Landon said it all. I'm more curious to hear your take on that, John, since you haven't heard that before. And I've heard it several times. Just the idea the persecution. Just can't get over it.

John Dehlin [01:58:53] No, I, I just like that's the worst animosity he's ever seen. I mean, all they're doing is enforcing their existing city codes. And then so he talks about religious persecution, but then he, he lectures them and tells them they don't understand the law and they're like city employees. But then, but then threatening them that the loser pays and then saying, we'll spend as much money as we can. What about, you know, what about the city council? I wonder if the city council has ever seen such persecution, such adversity, such animosity. Talk about animosity. Is there any chance that the Fairview City Council has ever seen such animosity from its citizens?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:59:41] No. In fact, the mayor said this is the worst crisis our town has ever faced. This is absolutely overwhelming to all of them. I would say emotionally, financially, civically, they have never seen anything like this.

John Dehlin [01:59:56] Yeah, it's, it's, it's absolutely just outrageous. Mormons. Mormons think they're the center of the universe. And they think that they're the. And, and, you know, we come by it honestly because we were taught this. We're God's one true church. We're led by God's prophet. If Russell Nelson wants a big ass temple in the middle of a suburban town where violates city codes, well, that's God and Jesus that want it. So we'll do and say anything to get it because we're God's chosen people. And it's, it's just ridiculously hypocritical Christian Mormon arrogance. That is stunning and offensive. And as a Texan, I'm deeply offended and embarrassed by these Mormons. Mormons. That's my reaction. Rebecca.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:00:44] Yep, you're not wrong.

Landon [02:00:45] And it gets worse.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:00:47] And I have to say that the very first time these Texans encountered the church, they received a letter that wasn't really forthcoming as far as how tall the building would be. They went to an informational meeting at a stake center, and I believe it was Richard Abernathy. I'm not sure if it was. We have this on tape. A church lawyer said, you know DOJ laws in Texas. If you guys don't let us in, we'll sue. This was their very first encounter months ago. And you could hear in the room, this audible, what? You know, like you said, don't mess with Texas. They have never been treated like this before and I think they're going to do something about it.

John Dehlin [02:01:26] Yeah, it's just. It's just so violent and unchristlike, in my opinion. Okay. The next clip is titled Member Accuses Town Council of having Big Egos. I can't wait for this. Anything you want to say to set it up, Rebecca?

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:01:40] No, you just have to hear it to believe it. Honestly. Everyone should watch the whole meeting. Honestly.

John Dehlin [02:01:45] Yeah. All right, well, let's play the next one.

▶ Video Clip 10

Video Clip 10 [02:01:48] I live at 1018 Mickelson. Lane in Allen, Texas.

Video Clip 10 [02:01:51] Hello, Joey.

Video Clip 10 [02:01:52] Good to see you. Good. I want you to know that I believe in higher authority.

Video Clip 10 [02:02:00] Obviously, as a member of the Church

Video Clip 10 [02:02:02] of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we believe that higher authority is God and his son, Jesus Christ. As a member of the Allen City

Video Clip 10 [02:02:10] council for nearly 10 years, I also

Video Clip 10 [02:02:12] realized that the authority of a council extends to the borders of the city for greater or lesser reasons. And what happens is that I saw this. Psychologists call it a God complex.

Video Clip 10 [02:02:29] That after a while being on an

Video Clip 10 [02:02:32] elected official, you begin to think you know things. You think you know more than other people, you can know more than the citizens.

Video Clip 10 [02:02:40] You think you know more than others.

Video Clip 10 [02:02:41] And so it to be to be an elected official to begin with takes a lot of ego to be certain.

Video Clip 10 [02:02:51] I know I have a bit of

Video Clip 10 [02:02:52] that myself and I feared for that. So I set myself a term limit

Video Clip 10 [02:02:56] and I said I want to be

Video Clip 10 [02:02:58] off after I've done this, these things and move on in my life because

Video Clip 10 [02:03:02] I fear that the longer, and I

Video Clip 10 [02:03:05] don't know why it happens to elected officials, I don't know more than other

Video Clip 10 [02:03:08] people, but the longer they're there, they

Video Clip 10 [02:03:12] think they know more.

Video Clip 10 [02:03:13] And there is an authority above your circumstances.

Video Clip 10 [02:03:16] City council, state law. Larry doesn't understand it. He should get more education on it. There's federal law. Your ordinances do not supersede state or federal law.

Video Clip 10 [02:03:30] And I wouldn't want anybody to feel

Video Clip 10 [02:03:33] like the will of the people if it were wrong, should supersede federal or state law either.

Video Clip 10 [02:03:41] And I do believe in higher authority and I know that in the end they win.

Video Clip 10 [02:03:47] Thank you. We've had terminals long before Alan did.

John Dehlin [02:03:51] Holy moly. Like, first of all, why is a guy from Allen, Texas even there speaking? Second of all, this is such as we've already stated an ego power money flex by the church and by the members, Mormon Church members. Why in the world would they lecture about ego? It's just so incredible, incredibly tone deaf. But if we're going to talk about term limits, how about term limits on Mormon church prophets and apostles, revelators. Like, if anybody needs term limits, it's Russell M. Nelson, Dallin H. Oaks and the members of the quorum of the 12. Am I wrong?

Landon [02:04:26] If anyone has a God complex, it's the members of the quorum of the 12 and Russell Nelson, not the city Council of Fairview, Texas.

John Dehlin [02:04:36] I'm just, I am just stunned. This is unbelievable.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:04:40] No, but I think it's funny that he says you're elected to the council and then you think you know things. Of course you know things. You're serving in that capacity. You learn, you go through, you know, town councils. Of course you do know. Absolutely. And there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. And I think. Landon, do you want to speak for a minute to what he was saying? Well, first of all, he said that he adheres to a higher authority, God. Right. But then he's talking about the higher authority of the, the state and the federal government, alluding to the fact, you know, that the mayor may not understand this, the town council may not understand, you know, that what they're doing is at odds with these other laws. Do you want to speak to that for a second, Landon?

Landon [02:05:16] Well, the only thing I have to say there is they, they keep referring to a DOJ letter that was put out, Department of Justice letter about RUPA that says, you know, you can't put substantial burdens. And so they're trying to argue that, you know, not having a steeple is a substantial bureau burden. These are the kinds of arguments they're trying to make so that they can argue it in federal law. But that DOJ letter specifically says. Right on it, that RUPA does not, does not let you waive local zoning and codes and, and ordinances. So it says right in there, you don't get an automatic pass just because you're a church.

Landon [02:05:51] And that as long as the, as long as the community is treating all the religions equally, as long as they're applying the law equally to everyone in there, then there is no substantial burden. And that's what the town's trying to do. They're trying to say all the churches have this same exemption right here. This is the level we're going to let you go. That's why they're pushing this bell tower so high. As they said, oh, you exempted that church. And therefore now we get to build whatever we want. And if that's the case, just think about that. The, the church that's going to be built next door, who owns the land next to the temple, they may say, well, we want ours to be twice as big as theirs.

Landon [02:06:29] And then they're going to come in and build it twice as big. And you're going to have this race of who gets the biggest steeple in town. And that's exactly what the city council is there to referee and to make sure that doesn't happen.

John Dehlin [02:06:44] I also, that, that's great. I want to share a quote from, from, from Dan Vogel. We're huge Dan Vogel fans on Mormon Stories podcast. He's One of the top Mormon historians, especially on the Joseph Smith, you know, early to mid 19th century Mormonism. But Dan Vogel writes, you are getting a glimpse of the dynamics between the citizens of Jackson County, Missouri, and the invading Mormons in 1833. And for those who don't know, you know, it's true that the Mormons were.

Nemo [02:07:15] Were.

John Dehlin [02:07:15] Were kind of kicked out of New York, and then they went to Kirtland, Ohio, and they were kicked out of Kirtland, Ohio, and then they went to Missouri, and then they were kicked out of Missouri, and they went to Illinois, and then they were kicked out of Illinois. Mormons are taught by their leaders that it's because Satan fights against the true church and the chosen people. Anyone who's actually read the history, as Dan Vogel duly notes, is that the Mormons were kicked out of all these states for being obnoxious, for violating laws and for lying and for intimidating neighbors and for just generally acting in obnoxious ways. So we want to thank Dan Vogel for his input. Go buy all of Dan Vogel's books. He's amazing. Anything y' all want to add to Dan Vogel's comment?

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:08:04] Yeah, I think we've made this parallel over and over. If you want to know what the early church was like, just kind of watch these scenarios. And, Landon, I think this would be a good time for you to share that brief conversation you had with the person at Sunstone who talked about the behavior of the church. Do you remember what I'm talking about? Yeah.

Landon [02:08:20] I was at Sunstone and an active member came up to me and said, hey, I've been watching your temple stuff. And he said, I want you to. To know I know all about the church's past history. I know all the things they've done. I know what they did in Nauvoo and in Jackson County. I know all these things, he said. But I asked myself, today, is my church that church today? Are they better today? Are they good today? And he said, you don't have to answer that. But he said, this temple thing has convinced me that they haven't changed at all, that they're exactly the same as they were back then. And this is an active member.

John Dehlin [02:09:01] Yeah, yeah. So, so powerful. Before we show the next clip, I just want to thank everyone who's joining us on the live stream. We've got almost 1200 people. Would y' all mind subscribing if you haven't, to the Mormon Stories podcast, YouTube channel, or on Facebook? Those subscriptions help with the algorithm. They help show that we're growing, and they help promote the website and what we do. So. So please take a moment to subscribe to this channel. Whether you're watching on the live stream or watching it later, that really makes a difference. Okay, the next clip is. Member bishop doesn't know how many temple recommend holders there are in the area. Anything you want to say about that, Rebecca?

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:09:43] No, we. We did see a lot of leaders step up to speak. There were a lot of bishops and people in leadership, you know, speaking, and. And I feel. Lana and I both feel that maybe some of the meetings before you had just the random member getting up and kind of saying some things, things that were a little more out there. This meeting was not like that. And I think that's why they had the watch parties to make sure that the members had a place to go. And then the people that were representing here were more of a church authority who, who would probably speak in a way that was more representative of the church is kind of what I think. It's my theory.

Landon [02:10:15] Yeah, that's. That's correct. We know Rainey Rogers, who got up, was a bishop, Jay Jones, who. I think he was the one that was, uh, earlier with the white shirt. He was, I. I heard an area authority. He was definitely a stake president. So these are the leaders we're going to see the. The temple president of the. Of the Dallas presidency, I think. Yeah, get up there. So these are church leaders, for the most part, that are doing the speaking. There are a few members mixed in, but the church leaders are the ones that are addressing the council mainly.

John Dehlin [02:10:48] All right. Right, let's roll the next clip. Can't wait.

▶ Video Clip 11

Video Clip 11 [02:10:52] Hi, good evening.

Video Clip 11 [02:10:56] I'm Nolan Godfrey. I live at 340 Cambridge Drive in Fairview.

Video Clip 11 [02:11:00] And I can imagine how challenging the

Video Clip 11 [02:11:02] past few months have been for you. And I'm grateful for your service, and my family and I have been praying for you. I am in support of the temple. One of the practical reasons for my support is due to the church membership growth. You've heard some about that. It's been discussed. When the Dallas Temple was built in 1984, church membership in the DFW area was about 20,000. It's now at about 80,000. And so obviously it's a scalability challenge. And I'm grateful that you're supportive of having a temple and of the LDS community in Fairview.

Video Clip 11 [02:11:39] We feel that that.

Video Clip 11 [02:11:40] And we're grateful for our neighbors to

Video Clip 11 [02:11:43] address the lack of sufficient access.

Video Clip 11 [02:11:45] However, the church has decided to build a temple in Fort Worth, which is under construction. And I believe a temple in Fairview

Video Clip 11 [02:11:52] would be a beautiful central location to

Video Clip 11 [02:11:55] serve not only our Fairview congregation, but the surrounding areas. And it's approximately 16,000 church members currently in the. In the immediate area that the temple

Video Clip 11 [02:12:06] would benefit also on another matter.

Video Clip 11 [02:12:11] The seven of you have been elected by us, the members of the Fairview town, in this case, to vote and to decide on really important matters to us. The decision that rests for all of the rest of us is simply how we treat one another, regardless of the outcome. And my hope. Hope is that we can maintain and exemplify civility and kindness in our community. And since these proceedings are going out into the metroplex and perhaps into the nation, I hope that we are a model and an example of that. Thank you very much.

Video Clip 11 [02:12:48] Nolan, can I ask you a question?

Video Clip 11 [02:12:50] Yes, you can.

Video Clip 11 [02:12:51] Of the 16,000 people, how many are temple certified?

Video Clip 11 [02:12:55] That I don't know. That's a good question.

Video Clip 11 [02:12:58] I don't. I don't have this.

Video Clip 11 [02:12:59] That's a really relevant question for lots of things.

Video Clip 11 [02:13:02] Okay, I'm sure other church representatives.

Video Clip 11 [02:13:04] Nice to meet you, by the way.

John Dehlin [02:13:08] By the way, my. My understanding is that just as a. As a rule of thumb, only a third of the. Of the members that the church claims in the world are active, and of the active members, only about a third of the adults are active temple recommend holders. So have y' all done the math on what that would. Yeah, go ahead and tell us.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:13:30] No, you're right. I haven't done the exact math, but it just, it hones down that number. And even if recommend holders, how many go regularly? And as the mayor said, this is a relevant question. I don't know if you could hear with the cutting back and forth, but the mayor said, can you tell me how many people are temple certified? Of course they don't know the words. They're trying to say, who has a recommendation, who can go into this temple? Because they're just barely starting to understand that unlike a church building of another kind or the mosque that we described over in McKinney that was voted down, that was going to have a gym and a food pantry and community classes, not everyone, even of the membership of the church, can go into the temple.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:14:06] And so they're trying to learn exactly how many people are we talking about here? And so they ask a bishop. Now they use the word area in the area. Again, they don't know. Know ward, area, district, you know, But I. I know that the bishop must know how many temple recommend holders there are in his Ward. Right. And probably even the state, because I think they have meetings about that. But the town council is very curious to know. And that really weighs into your decision. If you have a million people in your area that will access this building, of course you might look at it in a certain way.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:14:36] If you have 500 people that are going to be accessed in this building, you take that into. Into consideration. And as we saw those. Those screenshots of the availability in the Dallas Temple, 27 miles away. And also anecdotally, we get a lot of information from people saying they are begging for people to work at the temple. They're begging for volunteers. This is in Dallas, or it's a ghost town. I mean, these are members, actually, who say, I went to the temple last week, there was no one there, or I went. They needed help. Anecdotal, again, I can't say if it's true or not, but a lot of these are active members telling us this information.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:15:14] So. And I think that's across the board. But again, the town council can only go on the numbers that the church are telling them or not able to tell them, like in this situation.

John Dehlin [02:15:25] Interesting. Okay, should we play the next clip?

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:15:30] Yeah, let's move forward.

John Dehlin [02:15:31] The next clip is titled, members say Member says denying temple is like insulting his kids. Oh, boy, I can't wait for this one. All right, let's roll. Let's roll the tape.

▶ Video Clip 12

Video Clip 12 [02:15:44] Good evening.

Video Clip 12 [02:15:45] How you doing? Mayor and council.

Video Clip 12 [02:15:47] My name is Daryl Braithwaite.

Video Clip 12 [02:15:48] I live at 1340 Stacy Road in Fairview, Texas.

Video Clip 12 [02:15:52] I wanted to get up here first.

Video Clip 12 [02:15:53] I didn't sign up because I didn't know if I can control my emotions, to be honest. It's kind of like, Mayor someone coming

Video Clip 12 [02:16:00] and attacking you about one of your

Video Clip 12 [02:16:01] kids or something like that.

Video Clip 12 [02:16:02] That's how personal my religion is to me. I've been in member of the Church of Jesus Christ for 47 years. I was married in the Salt Lake Temple with my wife.

Video Clip 12 [02:16:10] I've been married for 25 years.

Video Clip 12 [02:16:12] Coming up, I have worshiped in over 45 of the different temples throughout the country. And I search out and go on

Video Clip 12 [02:16:18] different vacations, two spots so that I

Video Clip 12 [02:16:21] can see the peace and go to that area to feel that.

Video Clip 12 [02:16:25] And you know what's awesome about this

Video Clip 12 [02:16:27] whole meeting we've been talking to for three meetings about Jesus Christ in the

Video Clip 12 [02:16:30] house of the Lord.

Video Clip 12 [02:16:32] That's amazing. We're talking about the house of the Lord of Jesus Christ.

Video Clip 12 [02:16:36] There shouldn't be contention.

Video Clip 12 [02:16:39] I hope every time you guys drive past the temple, when it's there, you think of Jesus Christ. Because if we all had more Jesus Christ in our life, we wouldn't have such animosity towards each other.

Video Clip 12 [02:16:50] And I just want you guys to

Video Clip 12 [02:16:52] know, with living here for, oh, 12 years, I love Fairview. My son got up here one of the very first time in the meeting, talks about my wife, how she has

Video Clip 12 [02:17:00] a phobia of driving on the freeway.

Video Clip 12 [02:17:04] She can't drive down to the temple.

Video Clip 12 [02:17:05] She map quests everything out over to

Video Clip 12 [02:17:07] Preston Road to drive clear down to Dallas.

Video Clip 12 [02:17:08] It takes her an hour and 15

Video Clip 12 [02:17:10] minutes to get down there to worship. But that's the kind of dedication and love we have for our Savior Jesus Christ. And I understand some people might not

Video Clip 12 [02:17:19] understand or they take things out of context, or you think certain things are funny.

Video Clip 12 [02:17:24] You don't understand that can be hurtful because that's personal, like with our kids. And if you guys don't have a

Video Clip 12 [02:17:28] full understanding or, Larry, you totally understand

Video Clip 12 [02:17:31] the law of certain things. How can you be a judge to make a certain decision? I just want you guys to know that I love this church. I think this is going to be the most beautiful building in Fairview.

Video Clip 12 [02:17:45] Thank you.

Video Clip 12 [02:17:46] Thank you, sir.

John Dehlin [02:17:48] Holy Mother. Landon, let's let you go first.

Landon [02:17:52] Well, I love how he says, you know, how, how can you judge? Well, because he was elected to do that. Pretty, pretty obvious why he. He's in that position that he can do that. This was. This one just made me angry when I saw it.

Nemo [02:18:09] He.

Landon [02:18:10] He's shouting at people, don't you love Jesus? And getting everybody all riled up. I couldn't help but just kind of chuckle as he was doing it because again, this is. This assumes that everybody else thinks that this is Jesus Christ's house, that everyone else believes in Jesus. There's a lot of assumptions in that argument that he's making that everybody in town sees things exactly the way he does, which is exactly the point. The town has to take all points of view into consideration, not just his.

John Dehlin [02:18:41] Rebecca.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:18:42] Yeah, and another thing that he said is, he said, I know you don't understand things and you're making fun of things or think they're funny. That's. That's the persecution complex. And that is not true. I will tell you. We have worked closely with a lot of residents. We talk to a lot of people there. They are not lds. They are not making fun of anything. They take anyone's religion and religious beliefs very seriously. This is not a religious issue. No one is making fun of your religion or Persecuting you. They are simply saying, this is a zoning civic issue. It is not religious. So I feel very sorry that he feels so emotional that he almost couldn't speak because he feels he's being attacked in that way.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:19:21] And I wonder what kind of entity is fanning the flames of making him feel this way. I do know these are real emotions. And I feel very bad that the members, members, the faithful members, our friends, relatives and families that are there are having to feel this way because it's not religious persecution, but they feel that deeply that they are being persecuted. But I can tell you the residents that are simply opposing the location because of the codes are not thinking along that way at all. They respect you and they respect your religion. This is not a religious matter.

John Dehlin [02:19:52] Yeah, absolutely.

Landon [02:19:53] And if you want to talk respect, then you got to go both ways. Why don't you respect the laws of the community and. And the community's desires as much as you expect them to respect your beliefs and your ideas?

John Dehlin [02:20:07] Absolutely. All right, well, that was just kind of gross. Okay, so the next one is resident blames church leaders, not members. So are we. Are we now moving to the critics and their comments?

Residents Voice Concerns About the Temple

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:20:24] Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think I had six of each just kind of representing. Again, there were 70 people that spoke, 40 residents and 30 non residents and a mix of members and people that were residents. So, you know, these are just kind of representational. But yeah, these are now people that are residents of the town that are asking that their town zoning and codes be respected.

John Dehlin [02:20:44] All right, let's go to the first one.

▶ Video Clip 13

Video Clip 13 [02:20:48] Yes, sir. What is your name and what's your address?

Video Clip 13 [02:20:51] Hi, my name is David Dietz. My family lives at 5136 Pond Springs Circle here in Fairview.

Video Clip 13 [02:20:58] First, I would like to say that my.

Video Clip 13 [02:21:00] That my objection is against the current plans of the LDS temple, not against the members, the faith or the existence of the temple itself.

Video Clip 13 [02:21:10] My family has peacefully coexisted with I

Video Clip 13 [02:21:12] LDS neighbors in Fairview for 18 years.

Video Clip 13 [02:21:15] And we've worked alongside them for 10 years in the scouting community. On the subject of temple height requirements, consider the facts from the wiki page comparison of temples of the LDS. The shortest is only 50ft. The tallest is 288ft. But nearly a third are between 70 and 75ft. That includes the temple, the temple spires. This temple is planned to be the tallest in Texas and the 22nd tallest in the world.

Video Clip 13 [02:21:48] So two facts we know by this Wiki.

Video Clip 13 [02:21:51] Page one, there is no mandatory height. Second, the proposal's height is exceptional even amongst these temples. Point is not that these temples that

Video Clip 13 [02:22:04] must be a certain height to be

Video Clip 13 [02:22:05] built functional and beautiful. This is. So claiming this is legally protected requirement

Video Clip 13 [02:22:11] under the first amendment is also not true.

Video Clip 13 [02:22:14] Earlier I said I'm not against the LDS members. However, I can't say the same about the LDS leadership. They have threatened us. They have demanded their own members say the height is a requirement. Their deceptive letter sent to Fairview residents months ago indicated the store that it was only two. Two stories tall. Seriously.

Video Clip 13 [02:22:34] And that they would follow Fairview's rules

Video Clip 13 [02:22:38] and regulations when this very meeting proves that they are not. Today the LDS lawyer indicated unequal treatment

Video Clip 13 [02:22:45] for their church members to attend the meeting.

Video Clip 13 [02:22:47] Yet everyone was given the same rules weeks ago in equal opportunity to participate. David, we need. Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:22:57] All right, Rebecca.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:22:59] Yeah. Again you just see this over and over with the residents. They've done their homework as the mayor commended them for. And in this case he's saying, you know, there are so many temples that are not of this height. You know, this is going to be extraordinary even by LDS standards. The Dallas Temple, I think you heard at the beginning, the mayor said the Dallas Temple could be built there. Right. It could be built right there in Fairview. Those dimensions. But again, you can, you can see the residents trying to help the LDS members understand we are not against you, your faith, or even the existence of the temple.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:23:31] We are simply saying, please adhere to our zoning codes and our laws here in our town. So you'll see this over and over. I could show all 40 clips. And this is how the residents are. They're very, you know, even keel fair minded, just trying to help people understand. And they also understand it's a very supercharged emotional issue. And they're trying to do their part just to explain their point of view very clearly. And it's funny because it seems like everyone on the church's side said, well then just tell us what you want. And the residents and the council say, please make it fit the codes, make it smaller, make the spire lower.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:24:06] And then the church comes back and says, no, aside from that, tell us what you want. It's just beating your head against a brick wall.

John Dehlin [02:24:15] Yeah. Landon, anything you want to add?

Landon [02:24:17] We continue to hear and, and see in all of their print, in all of their speeches about the misinformation that is being put out there. And they keep talking that only go to their sources for correct information. All the other sources are coming with misinformation. Well, here's someone who Came told you exactly how many temples there were that are what dimensions, that they don't have to be as tall, that they've been spread out, they that the council asks what's your membership? How many temple recommend holders? Oh, we don't know. We don't. Oh, that's information you should know. How are the member. How are these communities supposed to know these numbers if the church won't put them out? One that we didn't show was the temple president of the Dallas presidency.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:25:02] He was in the president, he was

Landon [02:25:03] in the Dallas temple presidency, came to speak about it and the mayor asked him, how tall is the Dallas temple? And he said, I don't know. How many square feet is it? I don't know. You came and didn't do the homework. You're going to talk about heights of the temples and you didn't even bother to know what the height of your own temple was. You can't share that with us. So here you see the members coming with information after information after information where what you get from the members is one persecuted. You don't know the law. You guys just. And. And that you see of stark contrast as you watch these.

John Dehlin [02:25:41] Yeah. Okay. Well, the next clip is. Is entitled residence says church gave instructions to not back down. Let's roll.

▶ Video Clip 14

Video Clip 14 [02:26:02] What's your name?

Video Clip 14 [02:26:03] My name is Lee Moore and my husband Gary and I chose Thompson Springs on Hammerly Drive in Fairview over 20 years ago as our forever home specifically because of the RE1 zoning codes and that we had very little fear that any applicant would come into our town and call us the opposition, play the victim and actually threaten to sue us if we don't bow down to their demands.

Video Clip 14 [02:26:25] This is the modern day David versus Goliath. Using their billions of dollars to bully as. As we heard tonight, threaten us and our community and citizens. And that is pure arrogance, as you said, and is not neighborly. The applicant is the real opposition who is blessing us with their bully behavior, who without compromising makes accusations of religious bigotry and even has called us a liar when we said that they threatened to sue us. These lawyers here were given marching orders from the leadership in Salt Lake to not back down as it might set a precedent that they actually work with the cities and towns where they expect to bring joy and peace blessings instead of it's our way or the highway attitude.

Video Clip 14 [02:27:08] We are asking the town council to deny the cup because it does not conform with the ordinances and precedents, including steeple and building height lighting to protect our dark skies and the traffic issue issues. We are and have been a good neighbor because the applicant already has a worship center in our town since the groundbreaking in 2014, opening in 2016 that currently has the highest precedent. Yet it isn't good enough for them. No. They want to soften the hearts of the town residents with a structure that is more than double the current precedent that they themselves hold. And the neighborly actions of threats to sue us is if they don't get their way.

Video Clip 14 [02:27:44] The actual opposition here today and listening online could likely already have the approval of the structure. But these lawyers and your leadership are the bottleneck and the obstacle, not this small town that just wants to follow the ordinances and not an inch higher or a ball brighter. Please ensure the structure follows the zoning before you earn the first shovel.

John Dehlin [02:28:05] That was great.

Nemo [02:28:06] Yeah.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:28:07] That's a mic drock moment. She said everything. And at that moment, I thought again, I really Hope the active LDs listening in their stake centers hear that. And just for a second go, this lady makes sense. She's not saying anything against us. She's not persecuting us. She's talking about her town with emotion in her voice. Facts. And maybe learned something from this. I think she says it all right there. You could almost end the podcast on that.

John Dehlin [02:28:32] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Anything else you want to say about that one?

Nemo [02:28:37] No, she.

Landon [02:28:38] She said it. Great. And nothing she said was unfactual. The. The comment she made that they'd been instructed by Salt Lake not to lower the temple actually came from a meeting that we have a recording of that was sent by stake members that were at this meeting who sent it to us, saying, this. This just is wrong. What they're saying. Where the lawyer said, if we lower it here, we'll have to lower it everywhere. And pretty soon, every church will be 35ft tall. Every temple will be 35ft tall, which he knows is absolutely ridiculous because the steeples are 68ft tall already in town, and there is plenty of precedence to keep them at those heights. It's not going to go to 35ft. But that was what he told the residents. So what she said is based in fact and there are recordings. That's not just a feeling.

John Dehlin [02:29:26] Okay. All right, the next clip is entitled, Residential tells Council they have their back when sued.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:29:35] That's important.

John Dehlin [02:29:36] All right, let's roll it.

▶ Video Clip 15

Video Clip 15 [02:29:38] Good evening, sir.

Video Clip 15 [02:29:39] Good evening. My name is Patrick Sheehan. I live at 1309 Bethpage Court. My wife and I moved here five years ago after retiring. What she said. Thank you very much. I want you all to know that. That the townspeople who have signed the petition in opposition have great respect for the members of the church who have spoken here tonight. And I have to tell you, they've really touched my heart. And I disagree with you, Mr. Little, that this is about scale. They need a large temple. They say they have a growth of population of people needing to have this kind of an outlet. I totally support that.

Video Clip 15 [02:30:20] Don't shoehorn it it into the wrong piece of property. If they wish to have a temple of this size and scope and scale, so be it. I would be happy to support that. I believe that this council has gone out of its way to try to be accommodating and willing to have negotiations and have discussions. And I resent the fact that the attorney might come in and start making threats about what's going to happen next. We all know that this can end up in court. We recognize that. I want you to know we have your backs because you've had ours. It's important that you live up to the obligation that you have to defend our town.

Video Clip 15 [02:30:58] And, Mayor, you did a great job of outlining the history of why the town has developed the way it has. The only final thing I want to add to you is when we first moved to town here, I was struck. I don't know if it was a religious experience or not, but I stopped at the stoplight by the CVS and I looked up and it said, meandering angel. And I went, this is a place I want to be. They have angels wandering around the town of Fairview. God bless you, God bless the church, and may. May we find some way to accommodate the needs of both sides in this and not make it more and more contentious. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [02:31:39] Yeah. They're not saying they hate Mormons. They're not saying, don't build a temple. They're just saying, follow the rules.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:31:46] Yep. That's all. And I have to say, the other cities and towns that we work with, where temples are going to be built, they watch this and they watch the city council, because not all of them enjoy that. In Heber, residents that tried to speak in opposition were literally shut down because the Heber Council, county council, council is predominantly lds. Somebody even told one of our residents there, oh, you went on a podcast called Mormonish, you know, and she said, well, yeah, because nobody else news source here in Utah would let us speak, you know, so they were not supported by their city council, town council, county council.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:32:21] In Heber, you see Vegas, where they took con campaign contributions from the Lawyers working for the church. You know, legal, ethical questions about that. It is legal, but ethical, you know, So I think the Fairview residents recognize that they have a town council that is going to support everyone in the town, and they're willing to back it up and say, we've got you on this because you have us, and we know that hasn't always happened.

John Dehlin [02:32:47] Got it. All right, next clip is, resident says church will pay no taxes.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:32:57] Great point.

John Dehlin [02:32:58] All right, tell us your name.

Nemo [02:33:02] Ray Foster.

▶ Video Clip 16

Video Clip 16 [02:33:04] Let me call a couple people. Thank you. I'm engrossed in listening, so I'm just falling from the pile. I have Alicia Coon, Nolan Godfrey. Now, Nolan has already talked, so you're doing okay. We got Nolan.

Video Clip 16 [02:33:22] They're just calling more people up to get in line so that they can go.

Video Clip 16 [02:33:25] Abigail Godfrey, if you're here. Holly Snow, Fairview. Scott Santiago from McKinney. Karen Bailey from Fairview.

Video Clip 16 [02:33:40] You can see how many people are lining up. Like, you can see that this went on for hour after hour.

Video Clip 16 [02:33:45] And after three hours, when it was. It was discouraging when you kept seeing

Video Clip 16 [02:33:49] people get in line like, okay, sit down.

Video Clip 16 [02:33:55] They.

Video Clip 16 [02:33:55] Are these green shirts like yours?

Video Clip 16 [02:33:58] Yeah. Yep. Everybody in green is asking that the temple be relocated somewhere else.

Video Clip 16 [02:34:02] Yeah.

Video Clip 16 [02:34:03] Tell us your name and where you live.

Video Clip 16 [02:34:05] Ray Foster. I live at 1373 Shadow Creek here in Fairview. I'm in opposition to this church being built because I do not believe we should allow a church of this size to be built the middle of a residential area.

Video Clip 16 [02:34:22] It's. It's ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. If they really want to build a church this large, go out 10 miles by 200 acres, and, you know, build whatever you want to build. But I also am concerned not just about the fact that it's going to violate all of our rules with respect to height, with respect to size, Twice the size of. Of our. Of our city hall. I mean, look, that's a gigantic building already in the middle of a residential area, and I live over there. I want to talk a little bit about the business side of this. I don't hear enough of that.

Video Clip 16 [02:34:58] The LDS church is a nonprofit organization. That means that everything that is provided by the city of Fairview is going to. Paid for by Fairview, meaning myself. Now, I'm a retired guy, as are about 3,000 or 4,000 more of our residents, because this is a big retirement area, and we're going to get to pay for this church costs. They're going to require 80,000 people coming into an area currently occupied by Rabbits and grasshoppers. We're going to have 80,000 people. We're going to need more policemen. Policeman cost us a couple of hundred thousand dollars loaded cost per year. We're going to have to pay those costs.

Video Clip 16 [02:35:42] The church isn't going to pay those costs. We're going to have to pay them. And I'm opposed, as a retired person to have to pay their costs. I don't mind the church that's here now. I don't mind any of the other churches. Those churches were built for the people that live in Fairview. This church is being built for the world. We're going to have people coming from Oklahoma and. And Lord knows where else. I'm. I'm opposed to spending money to take care of people from other parts of the world. Thank you, Ray.

John Dehlin [02:36:10] Yeah, that's a fair point. Churches don't pay taxes, and this is going to be a cost to. To the town, to the city. Correct?

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:36:18] Yeah. And that's what people finally start realizing. They're like, we're going to have to support the infrastructure here with, you know, a fire truck that has a ladder long enough to get to the top and roads and things like that, but no taxes is paid by the church itself. So it's a fair point. Again, this just represents, as we kind of speed through now here at the end, that all the residents have done their homework. They've looked at all the issues. None of the issues are we don't like Mormons. All these issues are legitimate.

John Dehlin [02:36:44] Yeah.

Landon [02:36:45] One of the arguments you always hear is they say, oh, the temple is going to increase your property value. Well, for some reason, everyone thinks that's a great idea, to increase the value, your property value. Well, what happens when your property value goes up? Your tax bill goes up. So even if you're right that it does increase, that means everyone who lives there now gets to pay more money for the very privileged to live where they already live, to look at something they don't want to look at. How is that a benefit to the community? And others will say, well, people coming in will use your services.

Landon [02:37:17] They'll go to your restaurants, they'll use your hotels. This is a small town. And keep in mind they're being. This is built on the opposite side of town of where the commercial district is. So these people will be using the other cities that surround it. They'll be using their resources and be paying money to them at taxes. Not necessarily where the temple is, that's a residential area that doesn't have these services.

John Dehlin [02:37:42] All right.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:37:43] Yep. And another point is when the lawsuit comes, when they're sued, and the expense falls on the city and also, you know, trickles out into the taxes. Everyone will be paying for this lawsuit. Members in Fairview and people who are residents in Fairview. Everyone will pay.

John Dehlin [02:38:02] All right, the. The next clip says residence says Salt Lake City is stopping members from getting a temple.

Nemo [02:38:08] Yep.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:38:09] Not great point. All right. I think this is a great point.

John Dehlin [02:38:13] Let's roll it.

▶ Video Clip 17

Video Clip 17 [02:38:16] My name is Alicia Keeney, and I live at 171 Horseshoe Bend. Good evening, council members and Mayor Lestner. I want to thank you for your time. I've asked Ben Brown to present the petitions from Fairview residents. In six weeks, we have collected 2482 signatures. That's 29% of the adult population in Fairview, more than the number who voted in the last local election.

Video Clip 17 [02:38:44] We're urging you all to protect our town zoning ordinances and not allow the conditional use permit for the applicant. I would ask that you deny with prejudice because the applicant was given an opportunity to make meaningful changes, and they have unfortunately declined. Their only response is to threaten the residents of Fairview with a lawsuit.

Video Clip 17 [02:39:06] Our homes are our sanctuary, and they're just as important as any religious entity. They provide us with an escape from the intrusiveness of the world around us. It's where we feel safe, secure, comfort and peace. Our society benefits greatly from home ownership. Protecting us should be your top priority.

Video Clip 17 [02:39:30] Fairview United began with a few of us neighbors coming together outraged at the idea of any entity having the audacity to force their way into our peaceful neighborhood, completely disregarding our town ordinances and neighbors valid concerns. We now have amassed a group of concerned citizens who love this town and will fight to protect it. We are not defined by a religion or a political party. Our love for our neighbor is our driving force.

Video Clip 17 [02:40:03] We love our LDS neighbors, and we're saddened by the division. We are not your enemy. We want you to have your temple, but you must respect our laws. We are not the ones stopping you from having this temple. Salt Lake City is.

Guest [02:40:20] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:40:22] Yeah, I love that idea that our homes are just as sacred as any religious building. Landon, what did you want to say in response to that video clip?

Landon [02:40:31] I was actually kind of watching the. The chat here, and someone said, I wonder how the. The people in Provo would feel if they proposed a 75 to 100 foot mosque or Hindu temple.

John Dehlin [02:40:42] Well, it.

Landon [02:40:43] It goes. It doesn't even need to go that far. They did propose a. A very tall mtc when they expanded that and the residents their own church. So yes, neighbors get upset when tall buildings go in residential neighborhoods. That is not uniquely Fairview. That is not directed against LDS members. When large buildings go near residential areas, this always becomes an issue. So why is it the policy of the LDS Church to always build these mega temples in these residential areas?

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:41:21] Yeah, yeah. And she said it very clearly. I thought very succinctly, we are not stopping you from getting your temple. It is Salt Lake. Please, members reach out and say we need the blessings of the temple. Is there something that the church could do to help us access the blessings of the temple? We really want to go. I think that's what needs to happen. And Landon is not wrong. We're going to do an upcoming episode on this. The MTC in Provo. The members successfully lobbied the church for them to lower it. The temple in Erda in Utah, members successfully said this does not fit and the church moved it.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:41:55] So I feel change comes from the inside in this case. And if the church senses that enough active, faithful LDS members are not liking the way this is going down in Fairview, that a change can be made and they can get their temple in a timely manner.

Nemo [02:42:09] And.

Landon [02:42:09] And Rebecca, you Yesterday we had somebody who had. Had reached out to post a comment in one of the LDs. I think it was on the temple site.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:42:20] Friends of the McKinney Temple.

Landon [02:42:21] Friends of the McKinney Temple and said who was a member who said why can't we make some concessions here? And that was deleted and not allowed on the site.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:42:31] Not allowed to even entertain that idea. And again, it. Because it's. Because of. It's prophetic. Right. The size of the temple, the building itself, the location of the temple, that's all from God to the prophet's ear. It's hard to find a way to back down from that. But they've done it before.

Nemo [02:42:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:50] Dang. Fascinating. Okay, we've got one more clip of. Of people who are in opposition. Correct.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:42:57] I think one more and then we can watch the voting, which is very interesting in its own right. And I think all of this will give you a flavor of exactly what happened.

John Dehlin [02:43:05] All right.

Guest [02:43:06] It.

John Dehlin [02:43:06] Let's roll it.

▶ Video Clip 18

Video Clip 18 [02:43:08] My. My name is Greg Smith. I live on Timberwood lane in River Oaks. 1. My wife and I have lived here for 37 years now. And I have to say this is the most traumatic situation we've encountered in those 37 years. But first of all, I want to thank you mayor and town council for the things that you do and for protecting our. Protecting our property rights. I particularly surprised and pleased that you had this session today in deference to the Church of Latter Day Saints, when in fact, they seem to be built on secrets and deception, but yet you still give them the opportunity to come in front of us. An example of the deception is they

Video Clip 18 [02:43:49] put these pictures up here that are

Video Clip 18 [02:43:50] completely out of scale and make the people sitting here look at it, make it look like they're the same height and they're not the same height. That's deception. And mail this thing out to everybody in the town saying that the traffic will not be a problem. They're telling us at one point they're going to have 80,000 people a month coming into this. Into this building, and it's not going to affect our traffic. You expect us to believe this? We don't. Mr. Mayor, thank you for your comments.

Video Clip 18 [02:44:17] The people of this town support you.

Video Clip 18 [02:44:19] Thank you. Thank you, Greg.

John Dehlin [02:44:22] It's just an objective fact that the Mormon Church has been. Has. Has been deceptive and deceitful to its members and to the general world sort of systemically, chronically, egregiously for 200 years. That's just a basic fact of history. I hate to say it.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:44:42] Yeah, it is. Did I include in the slideshow some of those pictures he's talking about that are deceptive? They put together. They would be at the end. They put together a web website and a document and, and they tried to show. Let's see, they'd be at the very end. Maybe I didn't include them. They. I guess I didn't. Anyway, they. No, I don't think I did. They tried to show these different views of the temple. You know, here it is from seven miles away. You can't see it. I mean, I'm exaggerating there, but here it is behind a tree that would, you know, they had cardboard cutouts.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:45:12] It was really, you know, they were trying really hard to make it look like it wouldn't be as obtrusive as it was. But. But you can't hide a building of that size. And so this gentleman is saying, this is deceptive. This is ridiculous. We know what this is. Please be honest. And then please follow our codes.

Nemo [02:45:28] Yeah.

The Final Vote to Deny the Temple Permit

John Dehlin [02:45:30] All right. Well, I guess we have the final clip, which is the final vote, and then sort of an explanation of why the decision was made. Is that right? Is that what.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:45:40] Yep. You'll see them vote and kind of talk about it along the way and then call for the vote. And then. And this just gives you a sense of who all these town council members are and why they're voting the way they are. And again, you'll hear them say, we have there. This is nothing against your religion at all. We respect all of you. They say that every single time.

John Dehlin [02:45:58] And you know, this is the last video clip of today. So we, we appreciate everyone who's tuned in and we'll, we'll summarize at the end. But this is the final, final clip.

Nemo [02:46:08] We're done.

Guest [02:46:14] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:46:16] This is after how long? Five hours, huh?

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:46:19] I think it was five hours.

Landon [02:46:20] Yeah, I think that was with our pre show. So.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:46:22] Yeah. So probably four hours of meetings. Yeah.

▶ Video Clip 19

Video Clip 19 [02:46:24] The council will have any discussion, see if anybody has anything to say. We have. Just so you know, for everybody, we have four choices tonight. We can approve this as it's presented. We can approve this project with conditions.

Video Clip 19 [02:46:47] We can deny this project without prejudice, which means that they, someone could bring in another plan, substantially revised plan anytime they wish they would need to go to PNZ and come through the council council again. Or we can deny with prejudice. And with prejudice means that they would need to wait at least a year to provide to come before the go through PNZ and the council again.

Video Clip 19 [02:47:14] So just so everybody knows, what are the four choices we have tonight for the council? So council, does anybody have any comments, thoughts, things you want to say? I, I just want to say one thing. I, I want to make sure that everybody in this room knows this is not about anything other than it's a zoning issue.

Video Clip 19 [02:47:41] The building is too big and it's in, it's too big for that location. That is all this is about. This is not about whether where LDS is where somebody else is. I greatly appreciate folks from LDS coming up, the sense of importance. I want you to know I get it, okay?

Video Clip 19 [02:48:05] I really get it.

Video Clip 19 [02:48:07] But we also have, and I know about the loss, but we also have a need in our community to represent our community and to do what is best for our community and, and follow our laws. Ordinances or laws that's like this.

Video Clip 19 [02:48:27] The Methodist church you've heard about. It was never put into an ordinance. Never. So it doesn't count. It's not a law. I'm not an attorney and that could go before a court someday maybe, and I guess it will. But anyway, this is about a zoning issue and I want to reemphasize size for the LDS folks here. When you're done, please just, you know, you have to drive around the corner to get there because we have the roads blocked. But go look at our town hall, it's that high. It's twice that big with a big spiral. It is a gigantic building in a residential area. I know people are questioning that all around.

Video Clip 19 [02:49:04] There's residential and it's zone residential. So this is about that issue, nothing else. So I'll be quiet right now. Anybody else want to say anything?

Video Clip 19 [02:49:16] Sure. Hello.

Video Clip 19 [02:49:18] Thank you, Mayor.

Council Members Explain Their Decision

Video Clip 19 [02:49:21] I heard a lot of incredible testimony here tonight. Honestly didn't know, did not know what

Video Clip 19 [02:49:27] to expect coming to this hearing tonight.

Video Clip 19 [02:49:33] But I'll start by saying that as a member of the council here tonight, my ego was placed in question.

Video Clip 19 [02:49:44] I was told that perhaps I don't know the law.

Video Clip 19 [02:49:47] I also was told that federal law trumps our city ordinances,

Video Clip 19 [02:49:56] that I don't

Video Clip 19 [02:49:58] understand the teachings of the LDS Church and that perhaps there's some bigotry here too. I. I have to say that there's

Video Clip 19 [02:50:12] two sides of the coin and perhaps

Video Clip 19 [02:50:15] you don't know me either. I will also say that any decision that I make tonight is not biased.

Video Clip 19 [02:50:28] It's going to be made because of

Video Clip 19 [02:50:30] what I heard tonight. And always keeping in mind the interest of Fairview, because that's what I was elected to do, to serve Fairview. I certainly don't appreciate the being bullied in my town.

Video Clip 19 [02:50:52] I do appreciate the all the incredible

Video Clip 19 [02:50:54] testimony from the members of the church. I certainly really liked that.

Video Clip 19 [02:51:00] I learned quite a bit from all

Video Clip 19 [02:51:02] of you tonight and really respect that. I think we all said here that it's not about having or not having the temple. It's about having a structure or a temple that can also fit within our community. I'd love to have a temple here. We already have the church here and I would want nothing more than a temple that would bring even more great people like you all are to this town. But like somebody said, we're all equals and I believe that the church should be equal as well. To just tell us that the building

Video Clip 19 [02:51:50] height should be what you want it

Video Clip 19 [02:51:55] to be or else we'll settle this in federal court.

Video Clip 19 [02:52:04] I don't think that's being equal.

Video Clip 19 [02:52:07] I don't think that's being understanding and I certainly really don't think that's being neighborly. We are a good town. We have good folks here and we want more good folks. But we want some respect too. I don't believe that our lupa should be used the way it is in essentially bullying little towns like ours into accepting water. The will of church leaderships.

Video Clip 19 [02:52:41] Think it's best for them. I think what's best for the church is what the members need, which is really worshiping God. And I honestly think that there might be a compromise there somewhere in terms of building height and the scale of the building is the there. But we all have to want to work towards that.

Video Clip 19 [02:53:10] The steeple may or not be an essential part of the architecture. I don't think that's up for, for, for me to decide or, or council to decide. If you want to have a steeple, you should have a steeple. But once again within the scale of, of what we the town believe fits into our community as well. That's working in harmony.

Video Clip 19 [02:53:35] That's being accept, that's acceptance and that's collaboration and that's also being heavenly. And we will welcome the temple in, in our town as long as we can reach that agreement. Thank you. Anyone else? Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I want to thank

Video Clip 19 [02:54:04] everybody that got up and spoke. Both the LDS folks and the Fairview citizens.

Video Clip 19 [02:54:12] I'm particularly impressed with the conviction that the LDS folks have for their faith and was just totally impressive to me.

Video Clip 19 [02:54:20] I wish I had half the conviction

Video Clip 19 [02:54:22] that some of the folks that got up and spoke said.

Video Clip 19 [02:54:27] Having said that, it is a zoning issue. The Fairview residents who I represent and

Video Clip 19 [02:54:35] have obligation to listen to

Video Clip 19 [02:54:40] want the

Video Clip 19 [02:54:41] temple built, but they want it built in accordance with our ordinances. We gave you two months ago we

Video Clip 19 [02:54:51] gave you a template to go back

Video Clip 19 [02:54:54] and work from 42ft on the building

Video Clip 19 [02:54:57] and 68ft and on the steeple. I did not hear any movement towards that tonight.

Video Clip 19 [02:55:06] So I'm.

Video Clip 19 [02:55:14] I guess I don't know what to say other than I, I.

Video Clip 19 [02:55:17] We need to vote on this.

Video Clip 19 [02:55:23] Anyone else want to say anything or.

Video Clip 19 [02:55:28] I do. I, I wasn't. But being on the receiving end of a personal attack, I feel like I need to say something in regard to that. Especially coming from a former council person. I don't know who that was or if they're still here. I don't really care if you to. To if you take what he said.

Video Clip 19 [02:55:50] I voted against the church without or the ste. The excuse me, the temple without ever seeing the presentation. Last meeting I was going to vote against it out of total ignorance and that's just not true. Maybe they do things different in other councils and other towns.

Video Clip 19 [02:56:13] I've seen the presentation we all had. The vote was not to deny or approve the presentation. The request it was to give an extension of two months so that which was asked for by the lds. And my reason for voting against it was I didn't believe there would be any change in what they presented. So I guess I was right.

Video Clip 19 [02:56:52] Anybody else want to make a comment? All right, so now I think we're to the point of where we need to make it known where we stand. So I ask, does anybody on the council wish to make a motion about this, please.

Video Clip 19 [02:57:07] I will. I move the town council of the town of Fairview, Texas, deny without prejudice the conditional use permit that is the subject of agenda item 3A and convey that the applicant may resubmit a conditional use permit application meeting all requirements for a temple with a maximum height of a main building at 42ft 2 inches from the ground, at a maximum overall height of the structure, including the main building and any steeple feature at 68ft 3 inches from the ground. As this is consistent with the existing religious facilities in the RE1 zone.

Video Clip 19 [02:57:51] I'll second it.

Video Clip 19 [02:57:52] All right, council, we have a motion and a second. Any other conversation about this? Ready to vote?

Video Clip 19 [02:58:00] Go ahead, Carter. So let. Let me just say this. The. I think. I think we would be. Again, will be happy to have the temple if. If you can compromise on the building height and the size of the building. I just want to make it very clear. I think we all said that so that there is no misunderstandings in the future. That council did not want the temple in this town. That's just not true. It's true. Absolutely right.

Video Clip 19 [02:58:38] All right, we have a motion and a second. We ready to vote. Anyone else has something to say? All right, so all in favor of the motion as spoken, which is to deny without prejudice, please say II Any opposed? Any abstain? So it is unanimous that we deny without prejudice. So thank you all very much for being here tonight. We are. The meeting is not done yet. Y' all are free to leave if you want to.

John Dehlin [02:59:11] So that's it? That's it, Right? They voted. It was unanimous. Is that right? Rebecca?

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:59:17] Let me unmute here. Yeah, that's it. Haha. No. And so everybody understands, they did have those four options that the mayor outlined. They could just flat out say no. They could say yes, or they could say no with prejudice, meaning you can't reapply for a year. But what they did is they said no, not the way it is now. But come back. Come back next week with a better plan. Come back in a month with a plan. Let's get this done. But that's not exactly what happened, is it? Because the next morning, this happened on Tuesday, the next morning by certified mail, the legal proceedings, things. The suit arrived. So we're all back in It.

John Dehlin [02:59:57] Okay, wait. Are you talking about the Mormon church saying they're going to sue Fairview?

Rebecca Biblioteca [03:00:01] Yes.

Landon [03:00:03] Not quite because by individuals, but you know, it's backed by the church. The church has their own. Probably coming as well.

John Dehlin [03:00:14] Yeah, yeah.

Landon [03:00:16] And I. What I want to point out that they. They voted without prejudice. I think every one of those council people wanted to vote with prejudice, which would mean they could not bring it back for a year. And they wanted to do that because they don't want to put their town through this for another exact year. At least that puts it off for a year. And they already gave them two months to come back with something revised. And they came back with nothing, which is what that one councilman was saying. I. We get. I didn't want to give you the two months because I knew you weren't going to come back with anything and you didn't.

Landon [03:00:48] And so. But they did legally. I agree with their decision that they had to say without prejudice so that the church could make, you know, could make a design change and could come in compliance and could bring it. They left the door open to the church. And what's the church do immediately, you know, they start the lawsuits.

Landon [03:01:08] There was compromise made here by the council over and over and over. Lower the height, put it here. Keep the same design, but put it over here. We're willing to work with you, but over and over from the church, we hear the same thing. We're gonna sue you. We're gonna sue you. We're gonna sue you. We're gonna lower 15ft off. If you look at the spire, the top part, that 15ft is like a little lightning rod. It's so thin it that. That's not even it. You see the top part there, that. That's such a small part that comes off. It's not even. Not even relevant.

Landon [03:01:43] And the church knew it. And then to change the name to Fairview where it is instead of McKinney where it's not, is simply fixing something that should have never been that in the first place.

John Dehlin [03:01:53] But.

Aftermath, Media Coverage, and Closing Thoughts

Rebecca Biblioteca [03:01:54] And they didn't even say they would change it to Fairview. They just said they would change. We made the joke. Maybe they'd name it after the old show. Dallas, the South Fork, Texas temple or something. You know, a beloved icon. But yeah, they didn't even say what they would change it too. So. So yeah, again, I think we. It's just textbook. We knew exactly what would happen. But for that moment, everybody was really proud of that town council because they were so fair minded. You could hear it in what they said you could sense in their demeanor. I think they're all heartbroken over what is happening and they're just trying to be fair minded and do the best they can and hold their community together.

John Dehlin [03:02:29] Yeah, I, I'll just, I'll just run. I want to share from the Houston Chronicle a couple little passages, but really quickly, I want to thank, you know, Carolinde writes, can we donate to Fairview City Legal Fund? Do y, do y' all know if, if anyone can donate to that?

Landon [03:02:46] There's nothing yet, but we expect that if this, you know, goes further that they may have to, you know, they are a city unlike the other cities where the citizens groups are having to fund this. The city is backing it. They do have insurance that helps. But I, I don't know what the extent of that's going to be. And they may set up a fund.

John Dehlin [03:03:04] Got it. A couple other quick comments. Golly Sinatra. Hey, golly, I hope I'm pronouncing it right. She writes Great coverage. Well done. Fairview Gregory Turn Bow writes, thank you for your work. Thank you Gregory, for that super chat donation that helps us keep the show going. And then JC writes, developers buying cheaper lots than asking for up zones is common in Salt Lake City. Pits US Neighbors against wealthy developers. The Mormon Church acts as a real estate investment corporation with a golden religious ticket. Kudos to Fairview. Thank you JC for that comment. And just really quickly, just as we end the Houston Chronicle covered this again, I mentioned the name of the article at the beginning of the show.

John Dehlin [03:03:52] Small North Texas town rejects Mormon's plans to construct massive temple. 22 excerpts from that article it's worth reading. The first one is it's very difficult to deal with them. Mayor Lesner told me this week, referring mostly to the Utah based LDS leadership. Quote, the reason being simply is God told them to put it there. How do you argue with that? Honestly, like when the guy told the people, I I'm, I really am touched and respect your level of faith and devotion. I, I was ambivalent about that because I guess but also it's, it's the level of religious fanaticism that's so extreme that's causing all these headaches.

John Dehlin [03:04:38] So I guess I'm not super impressed by the beliefs and the devotion of these particular fundamentalist, orthodox, extreme abusive Latter Day Saints. I'm not impressed.

Rebecca Biblioteca [03:04:51] Yeah, no, the council was very kind. There were a lot of youth that stood up to speak, even young, like 12. And the council was so respectful and kind of those youth and told them, you know, thank you for being here and we appreciate your sentiment. But. But yeah, they no normal person would understand the pressure on an LDS person to say the things they need to say. And we saw that when they first introduced the idea of the steeple doctrine in the in letters, that council meeting, they went and you had grown adults, LDS people tearing up over the height of the steeple. It's so important.

Rebecca Biblioteca [03:05:23] They were just told about it two weeks ago in an email from a stake president, but now it's completely part of their belief to the point where they can get emotional talking about it. And I think that's what you're referring to, John. It how is that sincere in any way?

John Dehlin [03:05:39] Yeah, the other, the other quote I'll share is, quote, this is a matter of religious freedom, of religious rights and liberties, and we believe that it's simply discriminatory. Raskin said. Who's, who's Raskin?

Rebecca Biblioteca [03:05:53] This is Art Rascone. He is the area rep. He is a beloved news anchor in the area. I think he's retired now, but he's definitely a public figure there. But he is an area rep, and he's come out and spoken to several times, sent communications. He had a lot to say in the planning and zoning meeting. And definitely what he says over and over is we just want to be good neighbors from the bottom of our heart. I made a bingo card. He says that quite often. So.

John Dehlin [03:06:20] But he's the area rep. Yeah, he's crying, crying discrimination. He's, he's, you know, saying this is a matter of religious freedom. It's so gross. And then Mayor Lesner hopes Mormons choose to adjust their temple plans to meet the town's building ordinances. But he expects they're ready to fight the town council's decision in a state or federal courtroom. Quote, they don't get told no very often. Lesnar said. They're going to sue us. So there you have it. The Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, God's official church on the earth, richer than heavenly father, worth $250 billion, is going to follow the

John Dehlin [03:07:04] example of Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, the love your neighbor, do good to them that use you, walk a mile in their footsteps, forgive 999,000 times that church is now going to turn their lawyers loose on this small town, potentially bankrupt the town and litigate in the name of the Prince of Peace. I don't know what else to say.

Rebecca Biblioteca [03:07:33] I think you said it very well. And again, the bottom line is this is not about the people on the ground. These are wonderful people, LDS residents, active members, and the residents there. This is about leadership, mobilizing these people on the ground and putting them in this situation. We've seen it in Hebrews, Cody, Bakersfield, Lone Mountain. And it's not about the people. And somebody needs to make the leadership accountable to understand what they're doing in these communities. They are ripping them apart for no reason. You can have a temple. You can have everything you want. Just simply work with the. Work with the towns, make the concessions.

John Dehlin [03:08:11] I'm going to introduce the. I'm going to introduce the acronym wwjs. Who Would Jesus Sue? That's my new wwjs.

Rebecca Biblioteca [03:08:23] Unfortunately, everyone, I think.

John Dehlin [03:08:25] I don't know, pretty much everyone. Landon, any final thought?

Guest [03:08:30] I.

Landon [03:08:31] Again, I want to just say how dangerous this precedent of the church suing. They want to talk about the law and the protection and separation of church and state, but they're going down a slippery slope. This argument that churches can do whatever they want, that they can outmaneuver the legal system by simply having their prophet say something is true and then point to religious right and religious freedom, that they are above the law in every case. This is a dangerous precedent to set for towns.

John Dehlin [03:09:01] That.

Landon [03:09:02] And if. If Congress wants to give churches the right to make zoning ordinances in every community in the. In the United States, then God help us all.

John Dehlin [03:09:13] Absolutely. Not to be outdone by our viewers and listeners, or not to be outdone by me, I should say Ruth. Ruth Heath writes, I will go. I will sue the town.

Rebecca Biblioteca [03:09:29] Yeah, I love that. Oh, my gosh. This is great. Yeah. And if you guys have not checked out what's happening in Hebrew, and Cody and Bakersfield and Lone Mountain, these are equally compelling stories. Everybody's kind of at a different point. You know, he. Cody is at the very end, with the final judgment, the citizens finally had to sue their own town for not standing up against the church. You know, it's a little different in each town, but it's very intriguing. But the same playbook, as we like to call it. The playbook every time with variations.

Nemo [03:10:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:02] Well, I just want to thank personally, you, Rebecca, and you, Landon, and also Nemo, all the. All the whistleblowers that are sending y' all information, even the believing, faithful Mormons that are on the inside leaking information to you. This is a really important story, and I. I didn't. I didn't see how important it was going to be. I didn't pursue it. Y' all have shown a Lot of leadership on this. And I know the, the citizens of, you know, McKinney and Fairfield. Fairfield. Is that it? Fairview. I know that they're super, super grateful for all the amazing work you, Rebecca, and you, Landon, have done on Mormonish. So. And, and there are what, 12, 15 episodes on mormonish?

Rebecca Biblioteca [03:10:52] A lot. Our viewers might be tired of it, but I have to say it in working with people, and I will just very quickly tell you how it all started. A Mormonish viewer reached out to us and said, hey, I live in Cody. The church is trying to build a. A temple here. Some of the residents are trying to figure out what's going on. Is there any way you could talk to some of these residents and kind of explain Mormonism to them? Because they don't understand what is happening or what, what some of the terms they're using. That is literally how it happened. And then other towns said, hey, I, I hear that you're kind of helping with this.

Rebecca Biblioteca [03:11:21] And. But now all these people, people in these towns, we consider friends. They're not just people that we're working with. These are friends. These are places that we've gone to visit. These are our friends. And that's why we feel it. You know, we feel it so much because everybody can get. Can't we all just get along? I guess I'll say that there's no need for this to happen and rip these communities apart. And it's just really sad to see.

Nemo [03:11:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:41] Landon, any final words?

Landon [03:11:43] I just appreciate you having us on. And, you know, it's. It's going to be this pack of hyenas that just keep saying, you can't do this to communities that's going to put a stop to this. We've got to in the post Mormon community as well as in the non Mormon community. And we invite our friends in the LDS community who can see this for what it is to please step up and. And let's not let. Let them get away with this.

John Dehlin [03:12:08] All right, well, Ruth. Ruth hits it again. She writes, rebecca and Landon are absolute heroes. I agree. So is necessary Nemo. Please please subscribe to the Mormonish YouTube channel. Also please donate to Mormonish Podcast. They're a 501C3 and they deserve to be paid for their work. Please also subscribe to Nemo, the Mormon YouTube channel. Donate to Nemo. And while you're at it right now, if you can subscribe to the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel. And of course, we thank all our donors that make Mormon Stories possible.

John Dehlin [03:12:45] We lose donors every month. So if you want to support Mormon stories, you can go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button and become a monthly donor. And we'll do our best to provide summary news stories. Sometimes we're not going to be able to go into the detail that a Rebecca and a Landon would or Nemo, but we can provide occasional summaries and I really like this, the teamwork that we can do different levels of coverage for different audiences, you know, so, yeah,

Rebecca Biblioteca [03:13:16] I think that's important. I think every way that we all contribute is needed and useful in, in that sense, it's great. You're awesome, John. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:13:25] You do all right, Rebecca, thanks so much. Thanks, Landon. Thanks to Julia for the time codes, the show notes, the shorts, and all that she's doing in post production. Now thanks to Maven for moderating the live stream. We love you, Maven. And yeah, thanks to this wonderful progressive and post Mormon social media YouTube podcast community.

John Dehlin [03:13:49] We're the Davids fighting the church's, the Mormon Church's abuse of Goliath. And I'm proud to be, to work alongside people like Radio Free Mormon, Bill, Real Mormonish and all the others. Anyway, blessings to the, to the Fairview people.

John Dehlin [03:14:08] Blessings to that city council. Bless their hearts. Heavenly Father, please bless them. If you bless anybody, please bless those people and their families. We hope the Mormon Church fails spectacularly. We hope that this backfires and harms the church's public image, not because we wish the church any harm, but just because we want the church to learn to stop bullying people and abusing people using its money and power. Thanks to all the people who joined in the comments. So many great comments today.

John Dehlin [03:14:38] And we, we hope to do more good things in the days, weeks and months ahead. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, y'.

Nemo [03:14:45] All.

John Dehlin [03:14:45] Take care, says the Texan John. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

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