Lauren Matthias on Chad Daybell's Trial

Lauren Matthias [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:06] And welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. It is April 19, 2024. We're live streaming. And today we are super excited to be covering alleged could, I think convicted. Is that right? Potential murderer Chad Daybell. I just hacked that already. Chad Dabel's trial has begun. I believe we're two weeks into it. We're going to be talking about the Mormon angle to the. The two weeks that have passed so far to. To kind of see what's going on there. And to join us in this discussion, we have Lauren from Lauren Matthias Johnson. Is that right? From Hidden True Crime podcast. Hey, Lauren.

Lauren Matthias [00:00:51] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] How do you say it? How do you say your name publicly?

Lauren Matthias [00:00:55] I. Laura. It would technically be Lauren Johnson. Matthias. And these days I go by Lauren Matthias.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Okay. Lauren Matthias. Sorry about that.

Lauren Matthias [00:01:03] It's okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] Laura Matthias. Her. Her. Her and her husband John, they. Dr. John. They have an amazing YouTube channel that does hidden True crime. And you ought to check it out. Go subscribe to it now. We're also really excited to have Megan Connor. Megan also has a brand new podcast. She is also known as Lori Valo's niece among. Or sorry, a cousin, among many other things. I'm flustered. Hey, Megan, how you doing?

Megan Connor [00:01:30] Hey, John. Thanks for having me back.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] Yeah, it's great to have you both. And we've had both of you on several times on Mormon Stories podcast before, not just talking about Chad Daybell and Lori Valow. Lauren's. Lauren, we haven't had you tell your story yet, so maybe we're going to do that someday. Is that right?

Lauren Matthias [00:01:47] Yeah, I think so. I think so. We're talking.

John Dehlin [00:01:51] And Megan, we've had you on to tell your story, right?

Megan Connor [00:01:54] Yes. I was with you almost exactly a year ago.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] Yeah. That's amazing. And sometimes our friend Mindy joins us. Today's episode was brought to you by Gerardo. He wasn't able to join us today, but we've covered a lot so far, so go back and check our archive for those episodes. All right, so to begin, I think why don't we want to welcome our livestream audiences because. Megan, did you tell people about your new channel? Do you want to mention it really quick?

Megan on Launching a YouTube Channel

Megan Connor [00:02:21] Sure, yeah. My podcast is called the Midlife Revolution and it's starting to premiere on YouTube. The first episode came out on Tuesday night and it's available anywhere you get your podcasts. But my YouTube channel is at third underscore verse. That's all my Instagram TikTok. All my social media handles are at third Underscore Verse.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] All Right. I'm excited for you to be joining the YouTube ranks. Begin.

Megan Connor [00:02:45] Yeah.

A Taste of the Trial

John Dehlin [00:02:47] All right, so let's begin. Let's just assume there's some people that, let's just spend a minute or two with a little bit of background and kind of any background on the trial that we should be providing before we jump into the video. Lauren, I, I think you are in Boise attending every single hour of trial, is that right?

Lauren Matthias [00:03:08] That is correct. And I also want to apologize and probably the reason you were flustered because I was having travel technical difficulties and John trying to fix them for me. I made us late. So I take the blame for your being flustered at the beginning of this.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] I wish, I wish we could blame it on that, but I'll go with it. All right, Lauren, what should all of our viewers and listeners know about the background and, or the, you know, behind the scenes leading up to this trial that people should know?

Lessons from the Chad Daybell Trial

Lauren Matthias [00:03:36] Okay. All right. Wow. Well, first off, as I told John Dehlin, and I'll say it again, true crime has never been more Mormon stories than it is right now when it comes to the Chad Daybell trial. So this starts with two people, Lori Valo and Chad Daybell. Both of their spouses die under mysterious circumstances in 2019. Not so mysterious anymore. Lori Valo has now been charged in her husband's death and both of them have been charged in Chad's wife's death. Then the two lovebirds get married and Lori Valo's children mysteriously disappear. They are found in June of 2020 in Chad Daybell's yard. Their remains, both JJ 7 year old JJ Valo and 16 year old Tyler Ryan, brother and sister Lori Valo, Daybell's children. It's, it's a heartbreaking, terrible scene. Fast forward to. Well, not then. Fast forward to last year. Lori Vallow is in trial and here in Ada county in Boise, Idaho and she is convicted on Tammy Daybell's death. That's Chad Daybell's wife of, of 30 years, the mother to his five children in J.J. valo's death and in Tyler Ryan's death. And she is given three consecutive life sentences in prison. She was sentenced in July of 2023. And now here we are a year later and this is who was once her co defendant. The trials have now been split and Chad Daybell faces the death penalty in these three deaths. There's also, just to remind people, another death, Charles Vallow in Arizona. But this is Idaho, so right now we are covering the three murders that happened in Idaho. So may justice be served. And here we are. Chad Daybell is in day seven today of his trial that they expect to last possibly 10 weeks. That's what they told the jury during jury selection. I have already been here. I flew in Easter Sunday and I have been here ever since, covering the trial. Every day I go live at lunch. I'm in the trial stream chatting with people. And here we are today.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] Can you believe Lauren was able to rifle that off spontaneously without any notes?

Megan Connor [00:06:10] Yes, I can believe it because she's been doing this for almost four years now.

Lauren Matthias [00:06:14] So.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] Brilliant, right?

Megan Connor [00:06:18] Yes. And she's brilliant.

Guest [00:06:19] Yeah.

Lauren's Entire Story About the Lori Smith Shooting

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Megan, is there anything you would add to Lauren's amazing intro? Just, just from, you know, from your

Megan Connor [00:06:25] point of view, I mean, really just that it, it's been a saga that started in 2019 when I, for me, when I first saw the Facebook post that Lori's husband Charles had been shot. And it was shocking and horrifying. And what's sad about it is that it's divided our family. It's changed all, all of the family members. One of the people that interviewed me made the comment that murderers kill their families too. And there definitely have been the death of a lot of relationships because of how this has all happened. And it's just been, it's been a hard journey. But I've tried to make the most of it by talking about the toxic family dynamics that lead to these kinds of tragedies and by trying to help people recognize those dynamics and find healthier ways to relate with each other and families.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] Love it. Love it. Thank you, Megan. Lauren, what, what about the main characters or actors in this trial and anything we want to say about the Mormon ness of this trial for the never Mormons who, who are joining us today?

The Mormon Story of the Daybell Case

Lauren Matthias [00:07:42] Oh, yeah, I left out a big piece. I, I was given the basics and I left out one of the major parts in, in any crime, which is the motive. In this case, there are many, but there are some very unusual and unique ones. And that is where the Mormon or LDS faith comes in. So when it comes to this case, and then I'll jump to the trial, but just in general, we have two code of vendants who claim that the children and the spouses that died were zombies, that they were inhabited by evil spirits with, with names and like Ned and Viola and Hillary and they were killed to release the body from. Or release the evil spirit from the body and then the body died. You have people that believe in portals in their closets that they hang out in to see each other in different states. And you have people that are believing in past lives, or what they call multiple probations and that they were tight with Jesus Christ in their past life and lovers in past lives. You have an entire community of preppers online and in person, meeting at conferences that believe these beliefs that are coming into play, that preach these things. And you have every single thing that I just shared with you here in trial happening with witness testimony, plus more. Plus the idea that Chad Daybell's defense might be an attempt to protect the LDS Church. So that's when I texted John. I'm like, it doesn't get more. More true crime has never been more Mormon stories than this. And it's. It's heartbreaking, and that's why I'm here. And. And I know that I crack jokes because dark humor gets me through, but it is beyond just belief to any regular human being. And it's something that I've been trying to tackle for four years because I don't know how we got here. And I've been trying to figure it out for four and a half years now.

Core Mormonism vs The Prepper angle

John Dehlin [00:09:38] Love it. And if I can just add my view on kind of some aspects of the Mormon angle. You know, it's probably obvious to everyone that. That both Chad and Lori are, you know, at the time of the murders, were active, faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in good standing. Y', all. Y', all, please interrupt me if I'm wrong. They were in good standing, as I understand it. They had temple recommends, which shows sort of the highest level of Mormon Church sort of participation. They believed in God, they believed in Jesus Christ. So they were Christians. They believed in the Book of Mormon. They believed in the prophet Joseph Smith. And there's so many aspects. They believed, like many, let's just say fundamentalist Christians or evangelical Christians. They believe in the second coming of Jesus, that it's soon. That's a very core belief. Latter Day Saints in the church. Jesus Christ. Latter Day Saints means Jesus is coming soon. That's why the prepper movement is so strong within the Mormon Church. They believe in spirits, that spirits come in and out of bodies, that evil spirits can come in and out of bodies. That's mainstream, orthodox Mormonism. They believe in demonic possession, which means that evil demons are all around us and they can come in our bodies at any time. That's core orthodox Mormon doctrine. That's in Mormon scriptures. That's in Mormon teachings, and that's also just in Christian teachings. They believe in the Holy Ghost and that if you listen to God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost. The feelings and the thoughts that come into your brain can be from God and Jesus or from Satan. But if, you know, if Chad's inspired and he's acting in a prophetic role with Laurie, it's partly because he's been taught that his thoughts and feelings come from God, come from the Holy Ghost in her revelations, from God and Jesus. And I think that's a big part of this. They believe in the ability to communicate with spirits who have passed on. That's very core orthodox Mormon doctrine. Joseph Smith received angelic visitations, spoke with angels, etc. That's all core Mormon doctrine. They believe in patriarchal blessings, which is the ability to receive a priesthood blessing and then be told what you're supposed to do by the person whose hands are laid upon your head, who has the people priesthood. That's something that I think is going to show up in today's episode. There are just so many, you know, a lot of people are, you know, always debating over how Mormon are Chad and Laurie. And what I like to say is every spiritual or religious or supernatural teaching they have is either core orthodox Mormon doctrine or like, built on core tenets of Mormon doctrine. And then one step further. So this idea of zombies may sound not Mormon at all, but it is because basically what it means is the person, their body, they were alive. Somehow this evil spirit or demonic spirit possessed them, which is all orthodox Mormonism. And then the twist they add is that must have kicked out their base core spirit. And then of course, that means you can kill him. So that's the twist. But it's rooted in core Mormon doctrine and theology. And that's why I don't like the idea that of giving the, the church too much of a pass by claiming that that's fringe non orthodox Mormon doctrine when it's built on core aspects of Mormon doctrine and theology. Now, I've been talking a lot, Lauren and, and Megan, please, please correct me, because y' all both are either currently active, faithful Mormons or you were. And so you guys can check me as much as you want. Please do.

Lauren Matthias [00:13:34] Well, the defense would love you right now because that's exactly what John Pryor is trying to argue in there. And I think it takes away from the fact that what the prosecution is trying to argue and show with their witnesses is that Chad Dabel, this, he created this belief system. He, he is the author of this belief system. And he convinced Lori and Melanie and their, their crew of circle of friends that believed in this to follow him and look to him for guidance where the defense is trying to say and working there with Chad Daybell trying to say no, no, the scales of light and dark. That's LDS teaching. I, I want to give my perspective. I agree with what you're saying, John, that what you said words are important. What you said is true. That possess evil spirits possessed by core orthodox Mormon teachings. And then them taking it a step or two further, I would, I would say maybe a couple steps further. And I would also, maybe also say it might be core Christian beliefs. It was Christ that cast out evil spirits from people. And so this isn't beyond the scope of just Christianity in general. And taking that a step further, and I say that not to. This isn't a Mormon issue. I'm a true Crime channel and I have seen a lot of crimes in recent years that have to do with people believing Christian beliefs that are hurting children. And so my goal is to simply state this is a problem in general. And we got to look at it broadly. A little girl in California who dies in an exorcism at a church and on and on. That's just one example. A surfer teacher, Matthew Coleman, who took his children believing that they were zombies over the border in Mexico and slaughtered them. So I just want to state that yes, these are people that have strong religious beliefs, whether Christian Evangelical, Mormon and taking it a step further. And this is happening. So I think. I don't want to disagree with you, but I want to broaden it is maybe what I want to say.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] Perfect. And please disagree with me because I love it when people do. Megan, I. Any quick, anything you want to add in response to anything Lauren and I just said or.

John and Lauren on the Chad Dabel Case

Megan Connor [00:15:52] No, no, I, I think, I think you both encapsulated it perfectly. And I think the, the horrifying thing to me continues to be that this, this group of people did not disperse when Lori Valo got arrested and, and convicted. And they did not disperse when, when Chad Dabel got arrested. And they have still not dispersed.

Guest [00:16:13] They.

Megan Connor [00:16:14] There are still people out there in these fringe groups talking about this belief system and spreading this belief system among amongst each other and quietly whispering that the leadership of the church has gone astray. And so it's just, it's a, a movement that is still out there and I fear that we're going to continue to see more crimes like this happen because the church refuses to denounce these fringe groups and with their tacit approval, their silence gives tacit approval to, to their actions and to their theology and to Everything that they do. And we have in fact already seen more crimes. Blaise Thibodeau, who was kidnapped and taken up into Canada because his family believed the same things they, they were the Visions of Glory crew. And so just these harmful teachings are still out there. People still believe them. And we're getting silence from Salt Lake City and it's going to continue to perpetuate and, and it's terrifying to me.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:12] Thank you. Can I add one more thing to you, John? Just another thought.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] Oh, please.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:16] Thinking about, thinking about what you said as I joked that, you know, the defense would love you right now, which is probably why they asked you to join their expert witness team. They did not ask me. So take this into consideration from where I'm coming from. You know, I, I've been covering this case for, you know, like I said, nearly five years now. And you know, I do have to agree that, you know, I'm pro prosecution, I'm pro seeing what Chad did. And he, he did become sort of the leader of this group, whether he's a accidental cult leader or a purposeful cult leader. And he did take these beliefs a step more. Nobody that I know of has learned about zombies in Sunday school, if that's fair to say. I'm not saying that it's not in scriptures possession and in the Bible, but it's not something people are learning every day on in church necessarily about zombies. Or a light and dark scale that includes a decimal system that this is Chad Dbell's light and dark scale where someone once they hit 5 point or 4.6 dark then they cannot be redeemed. I mean this isn't, this is very specific Chad Dbell. So I do want to give credit where credit's due to Chad Dabel who's on trial right now. He certainly did create a lot of unique things like this decimal system that has no place in scripture or Mormon history. I just want to emphasize the taking it the one step further and hold him accountable. I think right now.

John Dehlin [00:18:51] And I'll, and I'll, and I'll actually agree and add a second to that. Lauren. I do not believe that the average Mormon kills their spouse or the average Mormon kills their kids. I think the average Mormon is a good, kind, thoughtful, law abiding citizen. So you know, for sure I want to make that clear because that's not at all what I'm saying now. There are a lot of really good comments coming in and a few of them I've flagged because I think they're worth mentioning. The first is around light and dark. While this idea of raiding people's lightness or darkness, I would say is not particularly orthodox Mormon, the idea of a light countenance and a dark countenance backed up by the spirit and Mormons being able to like, wow, you have a dark spirit. Your countenance is darker or your countenance is lighter. That's absolutely core Mormon doctrine and theology. And you could not convince me otherwise.

Killer Queen Bee writes Visions of Glory Needs to Be Dis

Lauren Matthias [00:19:51] Agree.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] That's one example of what Chad's building on. Killer Queen Bee writes Visions of Glory needs to be disowned by the LDS Church. We do want to mention the book Visions of Glory. The author is attributed to John Pontius, but we know that that's actually what's his name, Tom Harrison. And you know that is that is the number one sold nonfiction book in Utah for 2023 on Thrift. Is it Thrift Books? Is that the name? And again, someone else mentions that book has not been disowned by the Mormon Church. And as far as we know, Tom Harrison is still in good standing with the church. And of course we all know that Chad and Laurie had the Visions of Glory book under their knee, under Lor's knee at the poolside in Hawaii when she was when they were first approached by police. Is that right?

Megan Connor [00:20:49] Yep.

Lauren Matthias [00:20:49] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] Maven wants to say that that the idea of killing for God can be rooted in the Abrahamic story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. And while that story didn't, you know, you know, God didn't ask Abraham to go through with that, it does introduce the idea of what's called an Abrahamic sacrifice. And in Mormon theology there is violence and there has been violence attributed to God's command. And you could argue the Old Testament has that as well. Some people are wanting to mention Tim Ballard shares a lot of these similar types of beliefs as Chad and Laurie. And I think that's important. I think it's also important to mention Ruby Frankie. One not stress mentions Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt. Those are other true crime Mormon stories that we believe are kind of cut out from the same cloth. And we've covered that. We've covered that in previous episodes, Wolf writes. Thanks for the super chat, Wolf. Visions or visions of glory? More like hallucinations of horror. Thank you for the vids. Lunch vids, Lauren. So that's a shout out to your lunch vids. Also thanks Wolf for the super chat. Really quickly, 4040 love style writes, Mormon beliefs make it easy to jump to what Chad and Lori believe And I would say it's not easy to jump to murdering your spouse and kids, but we're seeing a lot of Mormon based true crime and we've got to talk about it. And that's what we're trying to do. And then, yeah, we're going to be talking about the Church of the Firstborn in a minute. Okay. So I think that's a lot of the introduction and yeah, I think, I think we could jump into the video now. Unless y'. All. Oh, well, Lauren, we're going to talk about some of the main players.

Mormon Church and Catholics

Lauren Matthias [00:22:44] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's talk about the main players. And by the way, side note, did you hear that Tim Ballard is thinking of converting to Catholicism though? So look out Catholics.

John Dehlin [00:22:52] He's wearing a cross and everything. But that's part of. That's because the Mormon Church excommunicated him. Right?

Lauren Matthias [00:22:57] No, I know. So I'm just, I'm giving a warning, you know. There you go. Catholics.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:03] FYI.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:07] Okay. Yeah. So, so main players. Chad Daybell is clearly the one on trial. He is the person here who we're all focused on, who we found JJ and Tylee in his yard. And then his wife, Tammy Daybell died on October 19, 2019 in the, in their. He called 911, Chad did and was found in their bed deceased. And then later was. She was deemed to have been a homicide. So and that's in Rexburg, Idaho. Lori Valow was from Arizona originally. Her husband Charles Valow died July 11, 2019. It was a shooting by her brother Alex Cox that he claimed was in self defense. They were never arrested and moved on. And then that is when Lori moved to Rexburg, Idaho from Chandler, Arizona. And then once she moved, she had this group of friends. Melanie Gibb is her best friend, her bestie, her, her sister from another mother. They were super tight, bearing their testimony to each other all the time believing that they were sisters in a past probation or married to the same dude one, you know, lifetime. And then Melanie's Melanie Gibbs side guy because she started having an affair kind of around the same time was David Warwick and he's a visionary as well. And then you have Dulema Pastenis and she could control the elements. And she married Alex Cox, Lori's brother. And for two weeks before then Alex ended up dying in a mysterious death. And then Chad Daybell was given everybody blessings right and left, saying they would know when to go to the other side of the veil. That's important. Chad Dabel believed he had multiple near Death experiences. And thus the veil that covers his memory from the heavens and the pre existence opened up a crack and he could see into the heavens and beyond. And, and thus everyone would go to him and clamor to him for answers. And then they all also believe that the second coming was on its way or the tribulations before the second coming. They're all going to live in these tent cities and they were all kind of spouse swapping at these preparing of people conferences and firm Expos and those come up in this trial too. Rod Meldrum hasn't come up, but he is the founder of the firm Expo and the firm Expo has now come up the. They went to that the day that JJ lost his life. Little 7 year old JJ in Rexburg and the preparing of people founders Mike and Nancy James, they have a prepping conference. They've come up today allegedly Mike, according to John Pryor. That's important to. John Pryor is the attorney for Chad Dabel and he is actually saying today that Mike and Nancy James who started the preparing of people conferences and are just beloved people that Mike was saying that Nancy was dark. That was a thing today that came out. So they're all calling each other dark. They're all kind of saying they were married to each other in past lives. Kind of call them this is. They all have near death experiences and then other players in the trial. So we'll get to that. So again, John Pryor is the defense attorney in this defending Chad Daybell. And then you have the prosecution, Lindsay Blake and Rob Wood and, and Rocky Wixom. So you've got three prosecution attorneys and it is wild in there. And if I, if I didn't paint that, I don't know what can. But it's, it's, it's a wild ride every day in the courtroom.

The Chad Daybell Trial: From Near Death Experiences to Witch

John Dehlin [00:26:54] I love it. I love it. A couple quick points. I do, I do also want to say, I think it's fair to say near death experiences and is either a very, let's just say it's a very common Mormon belief and that near death experience books are very, very popular amongst Mormons. Am I being unfair there? I mean whether it's Julie Rowe, whether it's Chad Daybell.

Lauren Matthias [00:27:18] No. Yeah, that's fair. You know, and your Mormon stories, I'm true crime. So I also just, I guess my thing is always emphasize a Christian belief because again, you know, I don't want to let anyone, I want to make this noted. But, but yes, yes, you're right.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] Yeah. Okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:27:34] Yeah.

Megan Connor [00:27:34] And when I was a. When I was a true believing member in the church, I read Visions of Glory as a true believing member. I was super interested in near death experiences. Around that time, it was about, around the 2010-2013 time frame that a whole bunch of books came out by different authors, you know, all kinds of different Christian authors, not just Mormons. But there was sort of this fervor about that in the church for a couple of years, at least among my community and, and among, obviously among Lori's community as well.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] Love it. And then I'll add, thank you for that, Megan. And then I'll add this idea of, of spouse swapping or of, you know, spiritual wifery. Joseph smith had over 30 wives, Brigham had over 50 wives. And this idea of spiritual marriages or just polygamous marriages, 100% Mormon doctrine. It's in Mormon scripture and nobody is going to convince us otherwise. I just wanted to, to question for

Does Every Mormon Offshoot End Up Go Back to Polygyny

Lauren Matthias [00:28:32] you about that, John.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] Yeah, go ahead.

Lauren Matthias [00:28:34] Does every Mormon offshoot end up go into polygamy? Because it feels like it does. I so so, you know, there are offshoots in every religion, subgroups, whatever you want to call them, the extremists, I don't know. And it just feels like no matter which one it is in Mormon dumb, whether you know, they are committing crime through blood atonement or, you know, sexual abuse, whatever, in the end it all goes back to polygamy. And I'm wondering if that feels accurate or not.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] If you picked. Yeah, there is one. If you picked the top 10 biggest Mormon offshoots, I would say eight out of 10, aside from the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Eight out of the ten would be the eight largest fundamentalist Mormon offshoots, like the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the aub, the Apostolic United Brethren or the Allreds or the Kingstons. And you can just go down the list of like the top fundamentalist groups. They're all literally polygamist groups because they were started after the Mormon Church stopped practicing polygamy, you know, in the early 1900s. And they're like, wait a minute. The prophets taught it's in our scriptures. The prophets taught it was required for salvation. And so that's how those groups were formed. The one exception would be what used to be called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And they've changed their name to Community of Christ. When they started maybe a couple decades after Joseph died, it was started by Joseph's late wife. No, sorry, by Joseph's wife, Emma, and her son, Joseph Smith iii. And when they started the Reorganized Church, they claimed, lied that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy and that it was Brigham Young who started polygamy, but that it was never part of the core church. We all know that's not true. Now, even the Community of Christ or the Reorganized Church admits that they were wrong, that Joseph Smith absolutely was a polygamist. So I guess, long story short, Lauren is 1 out of the 10. Probably wasn't a polygamist.

Guest [00:30:49] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:50] That's right. Yeah. I love the community of Christ.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. All right, so you told us who. The judge. The judge's name. You've already told us.

John Pryor hands Chad Daybell a book titled No Unhallowed

Lauren Matthias [00:31:00] Judge Boyce. Sorry. Judge Boyce is the judge. I actually just shared the council.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] But you told us the prosecutors and the defendant. A council. Right, Correct. Someone's telling me I'm yelling. Okay, I'll try not to yell. Thank you for that reminder. I'll back up. I don't like to yell. And also, I will add what that John Pryor did ask me to be a witness for. For Chad Daybell. And I asked my friends, just thinking, oh, sure, I'll do it. And they're like, you do not want to give any excuse for Chad to be let off. And then I'm like, okay, I won't do it. But I. I, you know, I just thought it's. It's a. It's an expert. Like, what's wrong with just being an expert? But apparently that's not.

Lauren Matthias [00:31:43] Well, I know exactly now why. I know exactly where John Pryor is going. And I completely get.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] Why should I just say that? That I. I did a couple phone calls with John Pryor, and he interviewed me, and this is exactly what he asked me about. He's like, how. How Mormon are Chad and Lori's beliefs? And, you know. You know, he's basically saying that the church and its defenders are going to want to distance Chad and Laurie as much as possible. And he told me that part of his strategy is to. To sort of make sure people understand that Chad and Laurie are building on core Mormon beliefs. And. And so I'm not surprised he's going there because he interviewed me, and I gave him my perspective on all that.

Lauren Matthias [00:32:29] Well, here's a little tea then for you. This was. This was spotted in court yesterday during the last recess, and they were arguing that on the stand with Whitney, with. Excuse me, with Melanie Gibb was on the stand. That's again, Lori Valo's bestie, who. Who followed Chad's teachings or whatever it is. And he was questioning Melanie Gibb about her beliefs in zombies and light and dark and kind of, well, isn't this what you believe in the LDS faith? And. And so last recess, afternoon recess is essentially like a potty break for all the jurors and everyone. And they're coming back in, and John Pryor is handing Chad a book called no Unhallowed Hand. But it's a church of Jesus Christ, a Latter Day Saints. I believe it's in the missionary library. It's a history of the church. And he had a little bookmark in it, a little orange sticky note. Looked like it was kind of stuck into the middle of the book. And then they also had another book written by Melanie Gibb, the Witness, as well, called Feel the Fire. And I. They certainly were trying to, I think, assess and point out where she certainly believed this without Chad Daybell.

John Dehlin [00:33:40] Got it. Interesting. Fascinating. Any thoughts on that, Megan?

Megan Connor [00:33:45] Yeah, I. I think it's really interesting that no unhallowed hand is going to play a part in this. That's. That's really interesting. I just. I mean, obviously John Pryor's got to do his job as a defense attorney to try and distance Chad, you know, from. From the. Obviously from the allegations. I just think it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out. And. And hopefully the prosecution is. And I think they are already. They're doing a really good job of sticking to, you know, the. The narrative that this came from Chad. And I especially liked it that when Melanie Gibb was on the stand, they talked about, you know, Melanie was testified that Chad would tell Lori and then Lori would tell Melanie. And so John Pryor kept focusing on the fact that, you know, all this came from Lori. It came from Lori. But the prosecution did a great job of pointing out that it was Chad who told Lori, and then Lori would just relay the instructions or whatever it was. So we'll see.

Blame It On Lori

John Dehlin [00:34:41] All right. All right, well, it's time to jump to the slide. So we've gathered several clips, some. Some from Lawrence, some for Megan, and Gerardo put some together as well. I've seen none of these, so I'm going to be viewing these for the very first, and I'm going to be reacting authentically.

Megan Connor [00:34:57] John Dylan reacts.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] Yeah, John Dylan reacts. So let's go ahead and roll the first video and the title of it. Gerardo prepared some speaking notes. John Prior presents Chad's defense. And then Gerardo writes Blame it on Lori. So that's how Gerardo Titled this first clip. So let's roll the clip.

Guest [00:35:18] We have a situation where someone is towing on Your years old, 21 years of marriage with Tammy Davo, no discernible issues in his life. And then Lori Valo comes in the picture, Miss Texas, with your testimony about this beautiful, vivacious woman, very sexual person and very manipulative, and she knows how to get what she wants. And she drove Drew, Chad, Day, Mel into a relationship and an unfortunate relationship, you know, fellow felon Jean. After that, things started rolling and issues started happening that eventually, yes, there was a murder and there was a burial. And you've heard discussion about the backyard of Chattanooga. Well, we have a four and a half acre farm in Fremont County, Idaho. And you'll hear testimony that the body of JJ Valo was discovered behind an irrigation pond and a tree out in the pasture.

John Dehlin [00:36:27] All right, well, I'll let each of you give initial reactions. Lauren, why don't you go first on that one? I've got some questions. But. But why don't you start?

Megan Connor [00:36:36] Yeah, yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:36:37] Well, I'll start by making you proud. John, this is a very Mormon defense.

John Dehlin [00:36:45] Tell us why. I think I know.

Lauren Matthias [00:36:49] This is blaming it. This is Purity Culture 101. And this is. This is the woman's fault. She was sexy. She was misstex. Mrs. Texas. Excuse me, Mrs. Texas or competing in Mrs. Texas. She was a very sexual being. I think he kept saying that, you know, she liked sex. I mean, this is essentially. This is what we would call today. Slut. Shaming. And really, Chad had no control over this vixen who. Who came into his life, and he had no choice left but to just bury two children in his pasture. And then, of course, I want to point out the humor and how he's sort of setting this narrat of. Of Chad having this vast landscape. He refers to an irrigation ditch and by the pasture. Almost like he's a farmer out plowing the fields. No, no. Just so you know, this is a place where he could see both burial sites from his kitchen and his bedroom window. But I think we also see what he's attempting to do there. Imply that Chad could have no idea that two children were burnt and dismembered and buried in his yard.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] Yeah, I mean, we can. Sometimes we laugh at this stuff, but it's obviously not funny in terms of the. And amiga, I want to get you in on this as well in terms of the evidence that we have. And I guess they're. We're gonna play it. But is there. Is there good evidence that the Chad was an instigator or even maybe more of an instigator than Lori. What's your either of your analysis of what the evidence you've reviewed so far seems to convey in terms of like, who was, you know, pursuing who and who was manipulating you make it. I'll let you answer and then I'll come back to you. Lauren?

Adam and Lauren on the Chad vs Lori Case

Megan Connor [00:38:46] Yeah. When, when the text, when we get to the text message portion of the trial, it's, it's pretty undeniable that Chad was, you know, as they say, driving the bus on this one. You know, he, he was the one relaying the dark percentages. Lori was the one asking him, how dark are they now? You know, sort of conveying some impatience that Tammy wasn't dark enough yet. And, you know, Chad was the one who was relaying all of that information. So to me, that's really the main thing that proves more than anything that he was the one who was really directing everybody, all the parties involved as to what their role was and what they, what they should be doing. I also think the patriarchal blessing that he gives to Alex is a huge indicator of that because I know that John Pryor is going to try to say that Alex acted on his own. In fact, he's already implied that he applied it a little bit in his opening statement where he said that, you know, Alex was Lori's protector and he had a past history of protecting his sister and that that's what he was doing in this case and that Chad should be afraid for his life and essentially so he's going to try to throw it all on Alex. But when Chad gives his patriarchal blessing to Alex, it's very clear that Chad is telling him what to do and Chad is the one giving him instruction. So I think there is compelling evidence.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] I love it. And, and, and Lauren, I'll let you close this slide out, but I will just agree that whether it's the Mormon temple ceremony that's got Eve tempting Adam with the apple, you know, or just lived everyday experience, you know, where, you know, so often women in historically Mormon women have experienced church discipline for some sort of inappropriate sexual relationships where men somehow inexplicably got off the hook there, or just the idea of Mormon modesty culture where women have to dress modestly, Mormon women have to dress modestly because they're the ones that tempt men. And it's women's job to police the morality of a young man or of a man. That's all very, very Mormon. Lauren, we'll give you the last word before we jump to the next slide.

3 Lori Valow Jurors on Chad Daybell

Megan Connor [00:41:03] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:41:05] There are three Lori Val jurors that I've now become close to. In other words, three. Three people who did their civic duty last year and ended up having to listen to weeks and weeks of Lori Valow's entire trial sat there and had to decide her fate. They're. They're now fully invested. And I. I watched them from afar last year. You know, I watched them with tears in their eyes as they looked at autopsy photos of these children. So they're. They're invested injustice. And they're sitting there now every day in Chad's trial as just public. And I've asked each of them, if they were had to, during that trial, convict Chad, would they have with the evidence they saw at Lori's trial? And they have all said yes, absolutely. They. They see him as the evidence against Lori, just as equally damning against Chad. And it seems pretty clear to me, and has always been very clear to me, that Chad was that again, this is Chad Daybell's belief system, that he is the one that created the light and dark scale, which is what each person had had to fall dark on before they were murdered.

John Dehlin [00:42:29] Thank you. Love it.

Megan Connor [00:42:31] And I'll just clear the record on one thing, too. Lori was not Miss Texas. She competed in the Mrs. Texas pageant. And I think it's just an example of. Of John Pryor taking a little snippet of information and stretching it to fit his narrative. Right. Making Lori out to be way worse than she was in some cases, way better than she was in some cases, all in an effort because she's already been convicted, to try and distance Chad from everything that happened.

John Dehlin [00:42:59] Makes sense. All right, y' all are giving such great perspective, and we're loving the comments coming in. Please do like this episode. Please do subscribe to any of the channels you're joining and subscribe to each other's channels as well. That helps the algorithms, that helps us grow with thanks to all the people who donate to what we do that makes it possible. And we're always grateful for the super chats when they come. All right, let's go to the next. Let's go to the next slide. This is having to do with Chad's daughter. And to what extent is she bothered that bodies were found in the backyard? And I want to give credit to Serious serial podcast on TikTok for this clip.

Human Remains Found In The Backyard Of Chad's Daughter

Lauren Matthias [00:43:46] Find the human, Remy. That's what they told me, that they found human remains.

Megan Connor [00:43:51] And I said, well, there are several Dogs that have been buried there.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:53] And he said, respectfully, Emma, I can tell the difference with human remains.

Megan Connor [00:43:57] And I asked, where was it?

Lauren Matthias [00:43:59] And he said, over by the pond under that tree, that it was in the ground and had boards over it. And I can see in your face that surprised you that he told me that the. What they're looking at is that they found one body with the probable cause there's likely two. So I asked, are you going to search the property forever until it's found? And he said, well, no, but we're going to look. And he said. Because I said, what about this is

Megan Connor [00:44:28] the home for my siblings and there's a baby.

Lauren Matthias [00:44:30] And he said, if you're not able to get back into tonight, we'll hook them up at the hotel. Is Emma part of Chad's cult? Why is she not screaming from the rooftops?

Megan Connor [00:44:38] Why would human remains be found in your backyard?

Lauren Matthias [00:44:41] It is so bizarre to me. She just brushes it off like it's no big deal. And she's acting like it's inconceivable for

Megan Connor [00:44:47] the police to be on the property

Lauren Matthias [00:44:48] while they search for Tyler's remains.

Megan Connor [00:44:50] She's crying to her dad, talking about

Lauren Matthias [00:44:52] money, about finances, about Chad's mortgage. Like, make it make sense.

John Dehlin [00:44:57] Wow. All right, Megan, let's let you respond first if you've got anything you want to share in response to that video.

Lauren on Chad's Reaction To Emma's Story

Megan Connor [00:45:03] Yeah, it's deeply disturbing. And I. And I think that the answer to this, and this is actually was Lauren's explanation, but she and I have talked about this, is, is that Chad is a very controlling person, and he very likely prepared his children with a narrative that was going to make sense prior to the remains being found. We know that he sent a text to Tammy telling Tammy that he had shot and buried a raccoon on the property on the day, actually, that one of the children was buried. And so he sort of sets up these stories in advance so that when the truth comes out, he has something plausible to fall back on. And you'll notice his reaction to Emma telling him that there were human remains found on the property. He doesn't really say much. He just says. And then later on in. In that video, which got played in court, he just changes the subject and goes on to finances. And so it's just this very manipulative way of redirecting the narrative. And it just. It. It's so. It's infuriating to me because having lived in an environment where I was controlled for a really long time, seeing that kind of behavior Just makes me so angry because those kids didn't ever have a chance at normalcy of any kind with. With Chad controlling them in that way. And it's going to take a lot to get them to a place where they can have healthy lives.

John Dehlin [00:46:30] Thanks, Megan. Lauren, what's your perspective?

Lauren Matthias [00:46:32] First off, I love that you use Serial's TikTok, the producer of that podcast is my. Is my court friend. So we will sit there and talk. And we. Right after that. That was a bombshell piece of evidence that nobody had seen before when they played that conversation between Chad and Emma in court and where they talked with one another that. The day that the body. That the remains were found and Chad was arrested in. Was arrested but had not yet been charged. And we said the same thing. We're like, how is. Why is she not asking more questions? Like, all of us in the courtroom agreed that if we were. We just found out that remains, human remains were found in the yard where we lived. We are. We would be like, what?

Megan Connor [00:47:22] What?

Lauren Matthias [00:47:23] And if we thought our dad was innocent, more importantly, if we thought our dad was innocent, we would be like, dad, can you believe it? What's going on? Like, why are they here? Like, we got to figure this out. What do you think? But Chad just switches the subject to talking about finances because he's going away for a long time. And she's just like, oh, yeah, yeah, you are. You're going away for a long time. So the question that Annie Elise, the host of Seriously is asking, is she part of this cult? I would say yes. And I, I say that from multiple interviews that I have done with people that were invested in Chad Daybell's belief system and Julie Rose belief system, and they. That she was very much a part of this. She narrated Julie Rose books. She stood up for Julie Rowe. That. That is someone that hasn't made it into the trial. But, you know, for those that don't know, Julie Rowe is somebody who. Chad Dabel was a book publisher and he published Julie Rose Near Death Experience books. And she sort of really had this similar belief system with Chad until he. He moved on to Lori. And, you know, and so I, I've also have had other close associates of Chad that I've interviewed say how much she was involved. And I, I want to say yes. I think just like Megan says, there's coercive control in this family, and it just shows how far and wide these beliefs are. I've also interviewed someone named Anna who was part of this AVOW website, who said that Garth the oldest shared that when he learned that all of his dad's visions were actually real. And it's just sort of common knowledge that everybody believed him. And so my heart goes out to the children. I'm not blaming them for anything by saying that, but I would say that the children, Chad Daybell's children, are very much a part of his cult. And if, if anyone more so than another, it would be Emma Daybell who you heard there. And then she also said in the conversation that she was listening to the spirit and that and Chad encouraged her to just let God and Jesus Christ lead. Never mind, never mind the, the remains, but just listen to the spirit and we'll, we'll see what's next, according to Christ.

Is Emma Daybell Part of the Cult?

John Dehlin [00:49:37] Thank you, Megan and Lauren. I'll just add that one thing I, I observe sort of putting on my psychology hat the more the high demand religion is or the more cult like a religion is, and I think you could argue that Chad and Lori had a cult mindset. We could debate about whether or not the Mormon church qualifies as a culture. That is an offensive term. I try not to ever use it, but certainly Chad and Lori were at a cult mindset. But regardless, the more high demand the religion is, the more I would argue that that high demand religion tries to nurture a cult identity where you're less encouraged to connect to what you feel and what you think inside. You're, you're more trained to block off your emotions and what's important to you and to assume the cult or the high demand religion identity. And then there's also the more cult like or the more high demand a religion is, the more of an emphasis on obedience to authority and blind belief of an obedience to authority. And I would, it would be my opinion, it would be my observation that Chad's daughter might, might be, you know, a victim of those types of mentalities.

Megan Connor [00:51:06] Yeah. And speaking to, yeah, sorry, didn't mean to talk over you speaking to the, you know, the, the patriarchy of the, you know, the Mormon Church and Mormon families in general. And, and speaking from the experience of, you know, having to do this myself, it's so incredibly difficult to get to the place where you can accept that someone in your family has done something this horrible. And at. So I'm talking about Emma Daybell. Add on top of that that her father is the leader of their family, that you want to trust your father, you want to be submissive to his, you know, you want to be obedient to him because he's the leader he's the one who's, you know, sets the. The groundwork for the family system and add on top of that chorus of control. I mean, I. It's almost impossible to overcome all three of those things and get to the place where you really believe that it's even possible for your dad to do something like that.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] Yeah, good point. Thank you, Megan. All right, let's go. Let's go to the next slide where I believe Chad's daughter talks about following the spirit. And Chad says it will be in the Lord's hands. Yeah. They'll let you move out of there. Just get over here.

Emma's Texts To Her Mother About Her Dad's Prison

Lauren Matthias [00:52:37] But I didn't know how. I felt like I needed to learn more. Now I get it.

John Dehlin [00:52:47] So, yeah, this is essentially the house. We'll talk to John Prior about

Guest [00:52:58] the

John Dehlin [00:52:58] financial arrangement, but he should be fine for a while.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:03] I think long enough to get on our feet.

Guest [00:53:06] I have a lot in that account

John Dehlin [00:53:11] with the other attorney, so that will

Guest [00:53:16] take care of me for a while.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] And maybe we just do a refinance on the house or a home equity loan. I don't think it's gonna break us. I think that might be an option. I might need to authorize putting you on the mortgage.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:39] Just probably leave Joe off it.

Guest [00:53:41] Yeah. Yeah. Keep me on it with you.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:46] And you have accounts like that when you're in jail?

Guest [00:53:50] I don't know.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:54] I guess this is the part you get someone else.

John Dehlin [00:53:58] Well, actually Spring Treat book company. So office. So you can. We'll manage it that way.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:14] And you have an. You can send things through Amazon to the jail?

John Dehlin [00:54:19] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:20] So, like, I couldn't send you a package, but Amazon, if I ordered it through there, it could get to you.

Guest [00:54:27] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:28] Oh, we do that as you ask for stuff.

Guest [00:54:32] Do we think Lori would know the Amazon account?

Lauren Matthias [00:54:35] I'll talk to her.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:38] Well, she just said she's gonna talk to Lori.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] We'll get it figured out. It's like teams and for loves Elena end at the right time. So do you think we've got the.

Guest [00:55:00] I think.

Megan Connor [00:55:00] Yeah.

Guest [00:55:01] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:55:02] With the computers.

Lauren Matthias [00:55:04] I think so.

John Dehlin [00:55:05] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:55:06] Vegan. Keep in mind that again, they just found human re remains in their yard. And this is the conversation. It's like happing. They're preparing and talking about finances while she's realizing her dad's going away forever, which my heart breaks. She's crying. She has so much longing in her voice. And her mother is now dead. Her mother's been dead for, you know, less than a year. And now this. And so My heart, Their conversations around finances. And she says for those wondering what she was saying about the spirit, she said that she felt that she was going to move, and she just didn't know why. She lives across the street at this moment from the house she grew up in. Chad's living in the house he grew up in where the bodies are. And she says, I just felt like I was going to need to move. I didn't understand why. And now I understand. Just so everybody knows, where she ended up moving is back to this house where the bodies were found. So she moved back into her childhood home.

Megan Connor [00:56:10] Yeah. And let's not forget that right before this happened. So Chad is in the back of a police vehicle right before this happened. He was, you know, standing near his vehicle, sitting in his vehicle, kind of looking over his shoulder, you know, nervous the whole time that law enforcement is looking in the backyard. And as soon as they find the spot where JJ is buried, Chad takes off in the car and he leaves his children behind. So Emma was there at the house with law enforcement, and Chad just took off while law enforcement intercepted him a little ways down the road. And then they brought him back, put him in the back of the cop car. So this is Emma coming to the cop car after her dad has already fleed the scene of them finding these human remains. And the other part I wanted to say was when Chad's. She's. They're talking about Amazon packages, right? And Chaz says, well, Lori will know the account information. And then Emma says, yeah, I've been talking to her. So Emma's been talking to Lori in prison and ostensibly kind of views her as a mother figure. At one point, she. She was saying that Lori was helping her grieve. And, you know, they're casually talking about James loves Elena. ICloud.com is the. Is the email address associated with the Amazon package. So I find all that pretty disturbing.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] Okay, thanks, Megan. We have a second slide, and by the way, these clips are coming from the hidden true crime YouTube channel, so shout out to Lauren and John for that. Megan, there's a second similar slide that's a little. That's shorter.

Megan Connor [00:57:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] Want to set this one up, or should we just play it?

Megan Connor [00:57:52] Yeah, it's pretty quick. Just go ahead and play it.

Does Warren Jeffs Have A Mormon Voice?

John Dehlin [00:57:55] Okay. All right. Sorry. All the neighbors are going to be talking, but this is Chad again.

Lauren Matthias [00:58:08] We're okay, dad. We're okay. You raised us that we're independent now with your wallet.

John Dehlin [00:58:21] Glad you got that right. So, yeah, get that money out of there. Probably just Put it in your own personal account.

Megan Connor [00:58:30] That's good, John.

John Dehlin [00:58:31] Rather than have the cash, I'm just gonna note. I'll just make it an observation. He's kind of got this voice that I would identify as kind of this Mormon patriarch, almost patriarchal voice that's kind of flat and kind of monotone. And it's not, you know, that's. That's not my dad. But moving to Utah, I don't know, there's a. There's a strand of kind of orthodox Mormonism in Utah, Idaho, maybe Arizona that's got kind of that flat kind of like, you know, go to the store, get the wallet. Like, the daughter's crying. And he's like, yep, it's a little bit country. I think we'll go and get the wallet. And everything's gonna. And it's soothing and kind of flat. I don't know. That's just.

Megan Connor [00:59:25] Yeah, there's there, there's definitely a Mormon cadence. Yeah, the way that he speaks.

John Dehlin [00:59:31] Yeah, that's a great way to.

Lauren Matthias [00:59:33] The way. The way I explain it again to the serial as least producer that's sitting next to me because she's asking questions. She's asking her Mormon questions. I'm like, I, I. In my opinion, this voice is absolutely Mormon. And I think it comes from, as I explain it, like, you don't walk into a Mormon ward, a very bombastic, loud guy, and think that, you know, you're going to be the most loved dude in the room. Maybe in some cultures, but not in Mormonism. They value men who are meek and humble and rule with a soft voice. And I do think it's cultural. And I think that because that's what's valued. When you have someone that might, for example, be a personality disorder or narcissistic, you're going to get less bombastic and more covert in the LDS faith because those are the people that really shine in their wards and their neighborhoods and villages, and people trust them. And I think they're men of God. And that's why you see the same voice with Warren Jeffs and Chad Dabel. They're not the loud, booming preacher voices. They. There's a different value system when it comes to Mormonism, and it's not. Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Does Warren Jeffs Have A Mormon Voice?

John Dehlin [01:00:53] Yeah, we're getting a lot of good comments coming in. I'll just read a few of them. So, so fun to ski rights stay sweet. And that's a reference to Warren Jeffs and the way he used to, sort of in a monotone, droney voice, keep his polygamous wives under control. I think he had stay, stay sweet written on his shoes and he put his shoes up on the desk and they would say stay sweet. And that's how he would tell his. Keep his polygamous wives in line if they were complaining. Somebody is saying that Kevin Frankie's voice is similar. I'm not sure if that's true. That's just what someone believes. Scrambled egg rights. It's hypnotic. Somebody makes the joke instead of monotone that Kelly J. Writes. It's Mormon tone. I don't think I have a voice like that. I feel very Mormon. So I'll, I'll say I don't think everyone's that way. Xanax voice, flat affect, honeybee rights. I live in Utah and I definitely agree with John that Mormon voice is undeniable. And again, we've got to vote for Warren Jeff's voice.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:54] You might not have that voice completely, but. But here's my butt. But. But you were also not aiming or eyeing maybe a climb in leadership or putting all of your stock in. I mean, maybe you were, correct me if I'm wrong, putting all your stock and maybe moving up the ranks or really trying to highlight that you were the best Mormon dude out there. But there are some cultural things I think I see with you, John too, where you, you know, you're, you're very understanding. You're listening. I, I just, I really think, you know, be. I am married to a non Mormon man who grew up in Chicago, so everything's new to him. Okay, so maybe that's where I'm coming from. I, you know, and I grew up with four brothers.

John Dehlin [01:02:43] And so Kale Conley, S.L. conley writes. You have hints, John.

Lauren Matthias [01:02:48] You, you do have hints. You do, you do all that.

John Dehlin [01:02:52] Oh, it's good you do.

Lauren Matthias [01:02:54] You don't have the General Conference voice. But again, you're not trying to talk like you're listening to the spirit and you're the most righteous person in the room. And if you are that guy and you're trying to really be a gatherer of the 144, 000, you're not going to do that again. With an iron fist. You are. The iron fist is hidden under the COVID soft spoken voice. But again, you don't walk into a Mormon ward with a loud, booming voice and think you're gonna. It's reverence. It's about reverence and meekness and humility. That is the culture. It's not the loud preacher and the rock music. It's soft Hymns. And that's Mormonism. And there's a scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants. Yes. Women are, you know, put on a pedestal. And men are told that if you are not meek and humble and amen to the priesthood and the authority of that man, that's their threat. So get in line and use your General Conference voice if you want to move up the ranks. Mormon men listening.

Megan Connor [01:04:01] There's no loud laughter allowed. And I actually had a bishop was. He was one of my favorite bishops for a long time who was that loud, boisterous personality. And he got told pretty often by his higher ups that. That he needed to calm that down.

John Dehlin [01:04:18] Yeah, yeah. Well, there is, you know, the temple denunciation of loud laughter and evil speaking. Lord's anointed Ali, who says John, I bet if you started praying, you'd fall into meek Mormon man voice. That's probably true. And I will say I was. You know, my dad's from Salt Lake and my. My mom's from Idaho, so it's got to be in there, so I'll own it.

Lauren Matthias [01:04:43] My grandpa was a bishop in Pocatello, Idaho, and he had that soft spoke voice. I loved it. You know, it felt comforting to me too, I have to say. You know, so. But it's a thing. It's definitely a thing.

John Dehlin [01:04:54] People do tell me that sometimes they listen to Mormon stories to help them fall asleep.

Lauren Matthias [01:04:57] So there you go.

John Dehlin [01:04:59] I try not to feel offended by that. All right, let's go ahead and jump to the next slide. This has been fun. Now I feel self conscious about my voice. And let's play the next clip. This is the introduction to the patriarchal blessing Chad gave to Alex. And the prosecution's detective is on the stand. So let's roll it.

Chad Daybell on the Stand

Lauren Matthias [01:05:21] You listen to that blessing at some point?

Guest [01:05:24] I did.

Lauren Matthias [01:05:24] And do you know who was giving the blessing?

John Dehlin [01:05:27] Chad Daybell.

Lauren Matthias [01:05:28] Do you know who he was giving the blessing to? Alex Cox, are you familiar with what faith the patriarchal blessings are attached to?

Guest [01:05:36] I am.

Lauren Matthias [01:05:37] And what faith is that?

Guest [01:05:38] With the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to stake a patriarch

John Dehlin [01:05:42] that gives that blessing.

Megan Connor [01:05:43] So it's a specific calling someone has within the LDS faith to be able to give those blessings to another person.

Guest [01:05:49] Yes, it is.

Megan Connor [01:05:50] And Chad did not hold that calling.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] My understanding, he did not.

Guest [01:05:56] Chad daybell, it is November 24, 2019, a Sunday afternoon, 5:15pm we're going to give Alex Lamar Cox a patriarchal blessing.

Alexander Lamar Cox Gets a Patriarchal Blessing

Lauren Matthias [01:06:11] Alexander Lamar.

John Dehlin [01:06:17] Alexander Lamar Cox, on this special day,

Guest [01:06:25] I lay my hands upon your head to give you a Patriarchal blessing as part of a member of the Church of the Firstborn that you have earned the privilege to be a member of. I do so by the power of the Melchizedek priesthood, which I hold. And in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior, who has authorized this blessing, just grateful that you're receiving it as you move forward in your life. You are a member of the House of Israel of the 12 tribes, and you are a descendant of Joseph through the tribe of Ephraim, which grants you many blessings, particularly of spreading the gospel in these latter days and, and protecting and preserving those who seek to learn the truth. And that has been your mission on this earth. And it will now expand into ways that we will discuss further in the blessing.

John Dehlin [01:07:41] All right, I'm just going to really quickly say that it, it appears that what the, the prosecutor wants to do tell me if I'm wrong or the Witness is, is basically trying to say, oh no, no, patriarchal blessings are only done by a patriarch. So this is fringe, weird, non approved, unorthodox Mormon stuff. Is that right? Is that what the, the witness is trying to say?

Lauren Matthias [01:08:07] More specific than that, they're trying to show that Chad, again, what this was, he is the leader of this crew giving direction through blessings.

John Dehlin [01:08:20] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:20] Don't you feel like that, Megan? It's more than just saying this is or isn't church. They, they certainly said shared that that like Chad wasn't a patriarch and he's giving this what looks to be a patriarchal blessing. But I think they're trying to show that he was kind of calling the shots through spiritual manipulation. Megan.

Megan Connor [01:08:40] Yeah, that, yeah, that sounds right to me for sure. This is the prosecution's exhibit and, and the witness on the stand is the one who prepared the report that includes the patriarchal blessing. So they're questioning him about it. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:53] And the, the witness on the stand right now is a law enforcement from Arizona who was actually born and raised in the church for 18 years, but left when he was 18. So that's the Witness.

John Dehlin [01:09:08] And, and just my quick reaction is that while it's absolutely true that an orthodox LDS church member or Mormon would never be giving a patriarchal blessing unless they were specifically given the call to be a patriarch. And there's only one of those in every, let's just say in a thousand, in a thousand or more active Mormons, there's one patriarch. So it's a relatively rare calling. What Mormons do do all the time, active, faithful Mormon men specifically who have the priesthood is they'll give priesthood blessings or father's blessings, where they absolutely would give an identical blessing in the sense of the types of things they say, the voice they use, the hands on the head, the priesthood, channeling the Holy Ghost and the channeling of what God supposedly is saying. That happens all the time. My dad did it to me. I did it to my kids. Every single. You know, almost every Mormon kid in the US before they go off to high school or college, gets a father's blessing from their dad if he's active and faithful. And if a kid's sick, they'll get that. That blessing with the hands on the head, the priesthood blessing. So it's. It's a step two away in this. In the sense that it wasn't authorized. But then again, if Chad has been taught to feel that if the Holy Ghost tells him it's okay, and that's his feelings, it's okay, then what allows it is that he just believes he's following the Holy Ghost because those thoughts and thoughts and feelings come into his mind. So it's. It's only a step or two away. That's my argument. And y'.

Guest [01:10:51] All.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] Y' all can disagree with me or if you have different views, I want to hear it.

Lauren Matthias [01:10:55] Oh, no. Yeah. Here's a secret. I'll tell. I'll tell the secret. Only Mindy Caldwell knew this. So last year, I was sitting at the Lori Valow trial with Mindy Caldwell, who often hosts these Day Bell episodes with us. Andy. Hey, Mindy. And they. We were sitting next to each other and they played this blessing, and it was the first time anyone had heard it. We had read it in some evidence dumps but never heard it. We didn't know they had a recording until this moment. And it's over 20 minutes when they play it in court. And it's. It was absolutely chilling. It took my breath away because it did sound so authentic, like a blessing you would hear in church. And so I was totally immersed in it, feeling it chills to my bone. Like, frightened. Like I'm not, like, thinking it was sweet. I was just like, I can't believe this. I feel sick. It was like this moment of realization, thinking Chad really believes this. You know, I was just feeling every feeling. And then Chad says, in the name of Jesus Christ, after 20 minutes, Chad says, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. And what did I do? I said amen in the entire courtroom. And everybody turned around and looked at me, and I was mortified. I was like, I can't believe I just said that because I was, it was just such a natural response to hearing this. And I wasn't even thinking it was happy or good, but just, just, I was just so into it and everybody turned like, who just said amen. And some people might be like, I knew, I heard that. I was just grateful, didn't get picked up on the microphone. But that's just how authentic it, it sounds that I, I said amen.

Megan Connor [01:12:35] Yeah. And true believing Mormons will say that, you know, Chad is, is being blasphemous here because he does not hold the office of a patriarch. He has not been ordained to be a patriarch. And that's a special calling, a special designation that, you know, you're given so that you have the special power to give patriarchal blessings to people. And the patriarchal blessing is supposed to be a guide for your life. It tells you sometimes, you know, what your profession might be, or it hints at it, or it tells you whether or not you're going to have kids and it tells you whether or not you're going to have struggles in your life or things like that. And it's, it's this crazy thing because a lot of people make decisions, major, major life decisions, based on what is in those patriarchal blessings. And so it can be it, you know, depending on who you get as your patriarch. But it's also really interesting that they have a lot of similarities to them. And you're not supposed to share your patriarchal blessing with anyone. They're supposed to be very private and very personal. You're supposed to just keep them to yourselves and you're not supposed to really talk about them. Well, what we find out when people start talking about them is how similar they are.

John Dehlin [01:13:50] Yeah. The only other thing I'll add is that I think about my faithful sister who's got an active, faithful, priesthood holding husband. Whenever she's having a really bad time in her life or really needs guidance or insight, she'll ask her husband to give her, hear her a priesthood blessing. He'll lay his hands on her head and he'll sound exactly like Chad sounds and tell her prophetic things, tell her what she ought to consider, maybe even point her in a certain direction, maybe even tell her what she should do. And I don't think my sister's alone. My sister's a very orthodox and even somewhat progressive Mormon, I think, in many ways. So that felt very familiar to me. He just should have called it a patriarchal blessing.

Alex Daybell's Patriarchal Blessing

Guest [01:14:40] Right.

Megan Connor [01:14:41] Yeah. The other thing I just want to ask Lauren, do you remember the Date of the welfare check on jj.

Lauren Matthias [01:14:51] It was right before Thanksgiving, because then the. Then they raided the apartment right after, and that was Thanksgiving weekend.

Megan Connor [01:15:02] I'm trying to remember if it was November 24th or November 26th, because the date of this patriarchal blessing is November 24th. And. Go ahead.

Lauren Matthias [01:15:12] No, you go ahead. Go ahead.

Megan Connor [01:15:14] I was just going to say I. I spoke to Larry shortly after this was brought out in Lori's tri. Trial, and his comment to me was that patriarchal blessing was that man's last rights.

Lauren Matthias [01:15:26] Yeah. Well, let's point this out, too. Thank you for bringing that up. That could have been done the moment that they did the welfare check and Chad had an oh, moment. Excuse me, but, I mean, he wouldn't call it that. Chad had a oh, no, what does the spirit want from me now? Moment.

John Dehlin [01:15:40] And a fetch moment.

Lauren Matthias [01:15:42] Yeah. And, you know, so they knew that they were gonna. Chad and Lori were probably taken off to Hawaii because that's what they did before the. Before they came and, you know, raided the house, the townhouse with search warrants right after the welfare check. And then I. I want to point out that two weeks after this blessing, it was December 13th, I believe. Correct me if I'm a day or two wrong. Did Alex died on December 12, right?

Megan Connor [01:16:11] Yes. Tammy was exhumed. Tammy's body was exhumed on December 11, and Alex died on December 12.

Lauren Matthias [01:16:17] Okay, so take away my December 13 date. So December 11 is when Tammy Dabel's body is exhumed. So just a couple weeks after this blessing, and then Alex, the very next morning, calls Chad and Lori in Hawaii receives a blessing from Chad over the phone, and then he dies the day after Tammy Daybell's body is exhumed, which was essentially the beginning of a massive investigation across states. Was they. They exhumed Tammy D's body, Wouldn't you say, like, when they really amped up and were about to share with the world that two children were missing?

Megan Connor [01:16:56] Yeah. And it's in the patriarchal blessing. Chad tells Alex that you have already given us service that is invaluable. And then basically tells him that you'll know when it's time to go to the other side.

Lauren Matthias [01:17:11] Correct. Yeah. And that is the most important part of that blessing is. Thank you for saying that, Megan is Chad Daybell says to Alex, and he talks about his entire future and marriage, just like a patriarchal blessing would, and his future and who he's gonna save and now in the hereafter. But he says, you're gonna know when it's your time to go to the other side. Two weeks later I guess he knew.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] All right, thanks, y'.

Guest [01:17:40] All.

Prosecution interrogating investigator about patriarchal blessing and Church of the First

John Dehlin [01:17:41] The next slide is. Is sort of a titled prosecution interrogating investigator or detective about patriarchal blessing and Church of the Firstborn. So this is the introduction of this teaching or belief of Chad and Laurie's about the Church of the Firstborn. And then we'll, after this, we'll talk about whether that is in any way a Mormon doctrine or fringe Mormon doctrine. So let's roll the tape.

Lauren Matthias [01:18:10] Detective Duncan, when you listen to that,

Megan Connor [01:18:14] could you hear a female also?

John Dehlin [01:18:16] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [01:18:17] Do you know who that female was?

Guest [01:18:19] I'm going to object. Without some proper foundation sustain based on

Megan Connor [01:18:24] your investigation, did you ever hear the

Lauren Matthias [01:18:26] voices of any other individuals involved in this case?

John Dehlin [01:18:29] Yes, I did.

Megan Connor [01:18:30] Did you ever hear the voice of Lori Valo?

Guest [01:18:32] Yes, I did.

Lauren Matthias [01:18:33] Do you know, based on that, did

Megan Connor [01:18:35] you recognize the female voice within that blessing?

Guest [01:18:38] I believe that voice to be Lori Ballo.

Lauren Matthias [01:18:42] In that blessing, were there certain things that stood out to you?

Guest [01:18:47] There was a lot. First off, the date November 24th.

John Dehlin [01:18:51] That is spoken 2019 by Chad. And the other thing that stood out was at the beginning when he mentions

Guest [01:19:00] that Alex is part of the church.

John Dehlin [01:19:02] Church of the Firstborn. That stood out to me. And then second and the third, Sorry,

Guest [01:19:07] is in there talking about how he had already helped us more than they

John Dehlin [01:19:13] could repay him

Lauren Matthias [01:19:16] and breaking that down a little bit.

Megan Connor [01:19:19] With regard to the Church of the Firstborn, is that affiliated with the LDS

Lauren Matthias [01:19:25] faith to the best of your knowledge?

Guest [01:19:26] I'm going to object unless there's some foundation sustain.

Megan Connor [01:19:30] And your honor, if I may respond.

Guest [01:19:32] Go ahead.

Megan Connor [01:19:33] I'm happy to lay more foundation.

Lauren Matthias [01:19:34] But I think I've already asked this officer previously on a similar objection if he looked into the LDS faith and is familiar with some of the terms used. So I think we have laid foundation for purposes of the investigation.

Guest [01:19:45] Judge, that's a pretty broad statement.

John Dehlin [01:19:47] Well, I. If you'll re. Ask the question. I thought you were talking about the diff. A different church. So go ahead

Lauren Matthias [01:19:59] through the investigation. And are you familiar with whether or not the Church of the Firstborn is affiliated with the LDS church?

John Dehlin [01:20:07] It's my understanding that the two are not affiliated.

Lauren Matthias [01:20:11] Is that why it caught your attention?

Guest [01:20:12] Yes.

Questions about the Church of the Firstborn

John Dehlin [01:20:16] All right. Any. All want to give context of what you know about the Church of the Firstborn and what the heck they're talking about here?

Lauren Matthias [01:20:26] Well, I do have some thoughts on the Church of the Firstborn. That in particular I served my mission in Kirtland. Ohio. So church history and the Doctrine and Covenants. Majority of the Doctrine and Covenants is written in Kirtland, Ohio. I've actually, oddly read the Doctrine Covenants more than the Book of Mormon. I think it's kind of interesting. It's just because it's, like, written in the 1800s, and the church of the Firstborn is written about a lot in the Doctrine and Covenants as Christ's church. What I was taught about it or understood that was that in essentially heaven, that you're not going to really need an earthly church anymore and everyone will be part of the Church of the Firstborn, meaning everyone would be part of Christ's church.

Guest [01:21:17] Church.

Lauren Matthias [01:21:17] Christ is the Firstborn. That's how I had always taken it personally until this Chad and Lori Daybell case. So there's my personal experience with it. It was something that actually. Something, yeah, I had actually studied and thought about. And it to me was, you know, one day there won't really be any churches. We'll just be part of Christchurch. That's what I thought it meant in the Doctrine and Covenants.

Members of Church of the Firstborn speak out

John Dehlin [01:21:45] All right, Megan, anything you want to add about Church of the Firstborn? Then I'll add a couple things.

Megan Connor [01:21:51] Sure. Yeah. I mean, this was. This was kind of an aha moment for me when I heard this in. In the last trial, because I realized that this was kind of what Chad is calling his church. And I know that it has, you know, some Mormon connotations, of course, but when I heard it in the Patriarchal Blessing, I was like, oh, crap, it's a whole church. Like, there are more people like this out here. He's not. This is not just a little group of cult members. Like, there are other people. He's trying to form his own church. And it was. It was just kind of shocking for me. I know that doesn't have to do with the Mormon theology of it, but.

7 References to Church of the Firstborn in Mormon Scripture

John Dehlin [01:22:29] Okay. And then what I wanted to do as well is just share a few. Just references. So the first that Gerardo prepared for us. Heaven bless Gerardo. We have here just a screenshot from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints website. I'm 100% certain that Gerardo screenshotted this today. And here are several references to Church of the Firstborn. It says celestial heirs are Church of the Firstborn. And it's quoting Mormon scripture, doctrine and covenants 76. And it says telestial heirs will not be caught up to Church of the firstborn. That is also in D&C 76. And then it says, as Many come will be brought to Church of Firstborn. That's Doctrine and covenants section 77. And then 78 says, ye are church of firstborn. So that's three different sections in the Doctrine and Covenants, which is Mormon Scripture. And then a fourth is doctrine and Covenants 88, where it says, celestial glory is glory of Church of firstborn. And section 93 is those who are begotten through Christ our Church of firstborn, if not five or six now sections. And then section 107 says, Priesthood to commune with Church of Firstborn. So I mean, that's like seven or eight references in core Mormon scripture. So I think it's going to be hard for people to argue that that teaching is fringe. It's clear that that's core Mormon doctrine if it's in Doctrine and Covenants. And by the way, according to Mormon doctrine, Jesus himself revealed the Doctrine and Covenants to Joseph Smith. So those are Jesus's words according to Mormon belief. So I think that's worth sharing. And then just for fun, I saw someone reference Joseph Fielding Smith's Doctrines of Salvation. Joseph Fielding Smith was not only Mormon Church historian for many decades, he was one of the prophet seers and revelators for the Mormon Church. And he was viewed as one of the key scriptorians of Mormonism. And his books, Doctrines of salvation, volumes 1, 2, and 3 were available when I was a missionary. I was allowed to read them as a missionary. I did read them multiple times as a missionary in English and Spanish. And so this is absolutely approved Mormon stuff. And so I just have a full text version of just volume two of Joseph Fielding Smith's Doctrines of Salvation. And if I tip in Church of the firstborn, there are 10 references just in volume two of Joseph Fielding Smith's Doctrines of Salvation. And I'll just read from it. There's a section on page, I think 246 called the church of the Firstborn. And it says, exalted beings belong to Church of Firstborn. Those who gain exaltation in the celestial Kingdom are those who are members of the Church of the Firstborn. In other words, those who keep all the commandments of the Lord. There will be many who are members of the Church, Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, who shall never become members of the Church of the Firstborn. It talks about the higher ordinances in the Temple of God pertaining to exaltation to be required to be in the Church of the Firstborn. And then it goes on to say, obedience to the laws and the ordinances and the Covenants required of those who desire to become members of the Church of the Firstborn as these are administered in the House of the Lord and then how to join the First Church of the Firstborn. Joseph Ealing Smith writes the. The Lord has made it possible for us to become members of the Church of the Firstborn by receiving the blessings of the House of the Lord and overcoming all things. Thus we become heirs, priests and kings who have received of his fullness and of his glory, who shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever with full exaltation. Priests and kings and probably priestesses and queens. I don't know. Does any of that language resonate with the Chad and Lori and sort of Mormon prep?

Chad Daybell on Joseph Fielding Smith's Doctrines

Lauren Matthias [01:26:46] All of it. All of it, really, to give. Yeah, but. But I. Yeah, all of it. This is exactly where they got it. Which is. Which is what I think we're pointing out that. But, but I want to clarify because, again, I don't want to give Chad Dable a pass and say this is what every. You know, this is. I mean, Chad Dabel, you know, believes in a. Mormons all believe in a veil, but only Chad Dabell somehow. Not only, but somehow Chad Dabel thinks that he could go in for brain surgery at a hospital and the doctor would open up his brain and find a veil that he could maybe stitch. He's so literal, is my point. So I want to point out that, you know, take me as an example, 25, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, I saw the Church of the Force burn as, like, heaven. Chad Daybell is reading the exact same thing, which makes complete sense. This is exactly how he lays it out for Lori. Exactly that they're going to be kings and queens. But he. He sends Lori an email with seven missions on it and says that it is our duty to establish this literal Church of the Firstborn. I guess I just don't want to give a cult leader any escape here. He also created a system himself where people believed him and he, you know, did things with this that most would never do. Yeah, but it's absolutely Mormon theology. But not all Mormons can be like, oh, I met a hot girl who was Mrs. Texas. I'm going to write her and say, by the way, it's our duty to. You're going to be my queen and my heiress to the Church of the Firstborn. It's our duty to start this church before the call out. I just. I just don't want to give him a pass is what I'm saying.

John Dehlin [01:28:29] Yeah, yeah. And while. While Chad takes it to 11 or 12 or 13 or 20, the Mormon Church also, I think part of what we all feel very passionate about is that there are all these weird, twisted doctrines or theologies or obscure doctrines or theologies that either Joseph Smith said or Brigham Young said, or they're in the Journal of Discourses or Bruce R. McConkey said it. Mormon doctrine, or Cleon Skousen or Joseph Fielding Smith or visions of glory or they're in the scriptures. Take your pick. What the Mormon Church could absolutely do is, like, clarify it and say, no such thing as zombies. Visions of glory is a bad book. Tom. Tom. You know Tom. What's his last name on screen? What? Harrison. Tom Harrison. You're excommunicated. Like, stop this garbage about Church of the Firstborn. It's all made up. Like, they could go to a general conference where they speak to literally all the members in the world twice a year, and they could just shut this crap down. And I just restrained my swearing. They can cut correct all down in a single general conference if they wanted to, but they allow this stuff to continue years and years and even decades beyond where. Where the cat gets out of the bag. That's my opinion.

Lauren Matthias [01:29:58] And can I just share this, a comment I saw Rabbit is saying hidden true crime T shirts and other Church of the Firstborn merchandise now for sale. Use promo code Chad for 10 off. That's. That's fake. But you better believe that I'm gonna have some Church of the Firstborn merch ready for you guys next week. I'll look it. It's done. We also hit 144, 000 subscribers this week.

Guest [01:30:22] That's cool.

Lauren Matthias [01:30:23] I thought, how ironic. Take that, Chad. Take that. Sorry. Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:30:29] May you double or triple that? Let me get any final words before we go on to the next slide.

Confessions of a Mormon Couple

Megan Connor [01:30:34] Yeah, it's. It's all just super troubling to me because it's. There it is. There's blurred lines between both things, and it's. It's so easy to see where, you know, Chad and Lori sort of formulated these things and then took it off into the direction that suited them, because they're just in this confirmation bias loop of thinking that, you know, God is telling them things and, you know, it's conveniently what. Exactly what they want to hear. So it's just super disturbing to me. It's all rooted in. In this Mormon doctrine. But also, like you were saying, Lauren, Chad took it to the direction that. That he really wanted to go with it, which was, you Know, just to whatever it was Lori wanted, you know, that's. That's how. How he, you know, tailored it to suit her. But, you know, certainly had these. These beliefs in place before she ever came around, you know, And I don't think I'm spoiling anything by saying that he also had a pendulum, a little owl necklace that he, you know, would dangle, and depending on which way it went, you know, was what. Whatever prediction that he would make and come out. And so that's kind of like his, I guess, his. His version of a seer stone, you know.

Mormon Stories Podcast Public Service Announcement

Lauren Matthias [01:31:43] Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:44] Really quickly, I'm just going to. I'm going to kind of do a little bit of a public service announcement, but for the benefit, I think, of all of us, Gerardo wanted me to mention that we have a really good episode on Mormon Stories podcast in our LDS discussion series about Mormon patriarchal blessings. I think most Mormons believing Mormons would really benefit from watching this episode and listening to it. I think never. Mormons would also very much value and enjoy it. We've got a series on our YouTube channel called LDS Discussions. It's like 53 or 54 episodes now where we tackle Mormon church truth claims from start to finish, from Joseph Smith and his treasure digging, peep stone in the hat, Book of Mormon translation all the way through to modern things like racism and skin of blackness and Mormon patriarchal blessings. I do want to. To encourage our hidden True crime and our. What is your new YouTube channel called, Megan?

Megan Connor [01:32:45] The YouTube channel is third verse, our

John Dehlin [01:32:47] third verse and hidden True crime. Viewers, feel free to subscribe to the Mormon Mormon Stories podcast channel and check out these episodes only because we think you really benefit from it. And I'm also going to say Mormon Stories podcast viewers and listeners, please go subscribe to Lauren and Megan's channel because we. We all share great content that I think cross pollinates well with each other's audiences. And it was Gerardo that asked me to do that public service announcement. And you know what? I do it. Basically, whatever Gerardo says. That's just. That's just the way I roll. And that's. That served me very well. Okay, so let's go ahead and go to the next slide. I believe in the next slide. The prosecution is interrogating the detective about patriarchal blessings. Prosecution insinuates that Chad suspiciously predicted Alex's death. Anything y' all want to say before I play this clip?

Pending Patriarchal Blessings

Megan Connor [01:33:45] Nope. Go for it. Oh, I will say. I will say. I. I can put in a plug for the LDS discussion series. I found that series incredibly helpful. It was instrumental in helping me to sort of get to the place where I understood what was the real what. What I was taught as compared to also what was the true history that I hadn't known before. And so that was incredibly helpful to me. So thank you guys for doing that.

John Dehlin [01:34:16] Our pleasure. Yeah, thank you. It's a great work. And Mike, Mike from LDS discussions is. Is a gem. All right, let's go ahead and play this next clip.

Alex Cox During His Deathbed Blessing

Lauren Matthias [01:34:28] And you talked about a statement in there that the statement was made already assisted us in ways that can never be repaid.

Guest [01:34:36] Correct.

Lauren Matthias [01:34:38] And again, Chad was giving the blessing.

Guest [01:34:41] Correct.

Lauren Matthias [01:34:41] And it's your belief Lori was also

Megan Connor [01:34:43] present for the blessing.

Guest [01:34:44] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [01:34:47] And then circling back, you said one

Megan Connor [01:34:49] of the other things that stood out

Lauren Matthias [01:34:50] to you was the date November 24th of 2019.

John Dehlin [01:34:54] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [01:34:56] Do you know if Alex Cox is still alive?

John Dehlin [01:35:00] Alex Cox is still alive during that time? Yes.

Megan Connor [01:35:02] And do you know when he was.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:04] When he passed away?

Guest [01:35:05] December of 2019.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:07] So just shortly after this.

Guest [01:35:09] Yes.

Megan Connor [01:35:10] In the blessing, did you also hear reference made?

Lauren Matthias [01:35:14] You will know when it's time to

Megan Connor [01:35:15] move to the other side?

John Dehlin [01:35:17] I did.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:18] And that's Chad telling that to alex.

Guest [01:35:20] Correct.

Megan Connor [01:35:23] On November 24th of 2019, were

Lauren Matthias [01:35:31] Tylee and JJ missing?

Guest [01:35:33] Yes, they were.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:34] And on November 24th of 2019, was Charles Valo dead?

Guest [01:35:38] Yes.

Megan Connor [01:35:39] And on November 24th Of 2019, was Tammy Dabel dead?

Guest [01:35:43] Yes.

Megan Connor [01:35:45] I have no further questions, your honor.

Alex Was Given A Priesthood Blessing Saying He'll Know When It

John Dehlin [01:35:47] All right. All right, Lauren, what do you make of that clip? And go ahead and unmute. Unmute yourself.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:58] I think. I think she's making their point. I mean, we had to listen to that painful 20 minute monotone general conference voice. And so I think she's just digging in and saying, what took your attention? It's the fact that he suggested that Alex would know when to leave this earth. And what else was it? The three points just were driven home, that they were all present, they all knew, and Chad Dabel was in charge.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] Megan, you want to add anything?

Megan Connor [01:36:29] Yeah. Just that, you know that they did bring bring up those points that at this time, you know, they all three of them were together. Alex died just two weeks later. The children had already been killed, and Tammy was already dead. So, you know, that. That kind of just sums it up that this was, you know, Alec, this was Alex being given. Given a pass to move on, and Chad was the one who was in control of telling him what to do.

John Dehlin [01:36:54] And then I'll just say this idea of, you know, you will know when it's time to pass on to the other side. I mean, that's the slippery slope of telling people that when they give a priesthood blessing, they communicate with God. And it's not just patriarchs in Mormonism that are taught this. When a bishop gives a bishop's blessing, he is supposedly channeling God's voice and will or the Savior's. When a father gives a father's blessing, or a husband gives a husband's blessing, or just a home teacher in Mormonism gives a home teacher blessing, it doesn't matter if a freaking elders quorum president in a BYU Idaho ward gives a priesthood blessing to a coed. Is that a wrong term? To a young woman at BYU Idaho, he's channeling God and Jesus. And so, yes, it's creepy and disturbing and chilling to have Chad, you know, be telling Alex that he'll know when it's his time to pass away, as if he's basically saying, maybe it'll be time to end your own life soon. That's what happens. I believe that's a logical next step for some people when they're taught that they have the power just by virtue of what thought or feeling comes into their brain. Not only do they have the power to discern God and Jesus's will, but they have the authority to tell other people what God and Jesus's will is for them because that's what, that's what you get when you get the Mormon priesthood. And I don't think I'm too far off with that.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:38] No, I agree with you absolutely on that. I just, I actually want to say I feel strongly about that. It is a, it is a slippery slope when you give someone that sort of power. As you point out, even, you know, a man blessing a woman and they're both single and what the male is able to then tell the female. And I'm using that very specific example because I will say that I have shared on my channel that multiple mortal probations aren't a thing. And we mock Chad's pickup line to Lori that they were married in a past life because it's so hilarious. And, and for those that wonder, I do read comments in. Someone made a solid point in comments and I want to share it. And she said, well, you know, because Mormon theology includes the premortal existence, that's technically like a past life. What's the difference between a man telling a woman, you know, I, I knew you in the pre existence and you know, I believe that we're meant or destined to be together. And I just, I Guess I want to reiterate that blessings and a man being able to tell a woman something like that, it is a very slippery slope and it's something that opens up to spiritual and religious manipulation and abuse. So I just want to say, yes, I agree. And it's, it's exactly what we see happening in this situation, just on a more extreme level.

John Dehlin [01:40:09] And so what the Mormon Church could do is just tell people, all members, you don't speak for God or Jesus. Nobody does. Or at least none of you do. And you're not allowed, whenever you lay your hands on someone's head, you're not allowed to speak as if you know what God or Jesus wants for them. So stop doing it. But, but I don't think the church can, can realistically do that. Megan, did you want to add anything?

Megan Connor [01:40:32] You know, actually, I think the church could realistically do that because that is a core teaching of the church, that no person has the right to tell the, the general membership of the church. Right. What God is, is speaking for them. It's. It's the prophet that's supposed to give direction for the general church. But again, I agree with you, John, because they do tell you that, you know, as, as the patriarch and the man of the home, that you do have the right to receive revelation for your own family and for the people that you're in charge of. And, and here's the other super, super disturbing thing is that before Stacy died, and Stacy is Lori and Alex's older sister, and she passed away under very suspicious circumstances, I was actually there with Alex when this happened. And the talk around the family at the time was that she was kind of told it was her time. And I, I imagine that Barry probably gave her a very similar blessing to what we're hearing Chad give Alex at this time and that idea of like, maybe it's your time to go. Well, you know, that. That could have very well have come from Stacy or, sorry, from. From Lori and Alex talking about Stacy's death.

John Dehlin [01:41:50] Yeah. Yeah, good point. Anything else, Lauren, before we go to the next slide?

Lauren Matthias [01:41:57] We're good.

John Dehlin [01:41:58] All right, let's go ahead and go to the next slide. Thanks for that. Megan and Lauren, this is John Prior questioning. The detective asked to call him Detective. He seems excited to bring this points. And the judge has some feedback here.

John Pryor on the Doctrine and Covenants Trial

Guest [01:42:22] Done that twice. Not on purpose. May I refer to you as Officer? Is that okay? Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:42:32] Yes.

Guest [01:42:32] Okay. Thank you, Officer. So you, you made mention of the fact that you familiarized yourself with the LDS faith, is that right? I was Born and raised in the LDS faith.

John Dehlin [01:42:42] Yes.

Guest [01:42:42] Okay, so maybe you can enlighten me, because I, I, this has been a learning experience for me.

John Dehlin [01:42:48] It has me as well.

Guest [01:42:49] Okay. But I'm, you're obviously have a, A hand up is that you're. You were at least part of that faith for a while. I don't have that. So you're familiar with the term Doctrine of Covenants?

John Dehlin [01:43:02] Yes.

Guest [01:43:03] Okay. And in the Doctrine of Covenants, it talks about the Church of the Firstborn as part of the LDS faith. Remember that?

John Dehlin [01:43:12] Well, I can't speak to the doctor because I know what the doctor Covenants are, but.

Guest [01:43:15] Well, you spoke to the Doctrine of Covenants, though, that I know what they are.

Lauren Matthias [01:43:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:43:19] Well, I don't understand content. Sorry, we're already having an issue with you talking at the same time as Mr. Pryor and Vice versa. So please question and answer and don't talk over each other.

Megan Connor [01:43:29] And your honor, I'm going to object as beyond the scope.

John Dehlin [01:43:34] Overruled at this point. Okay, so those are some interesting dynamics. Lauren, what did you observe there, having been in the room?

Lauren Matthias [01:43:43] Yeah, I was watching that. I just, again, I, I just thought to myself, well, John Pryor really wishes John Dehlin was on the stand. But this is what, this is what I mean, I was texting you at one point, I texted you and Gerardo, and I'm like, dude, you guys, this is, you guys got to cover this because this is how. When was the last time we saw in a capital murder case, a trial, the Doctrine and Covenants being argued and televised on a stand? Like, this is, to me, this is just epic. And, you know, so. And I want to go back to the church saying, from the very beginning, they have said, these people have nothing to do with us. Us. And now we are in a nationally televised trial internationally, watching people argue temple attendance in Doctrine and Covenant scriptures. So I think what this says is this, this trial is certainly about Mormonism and about belief, and maybe we can even take it more broadly. It is about belief and it is about cults, but it is something that I do believe strongly. The LDS members and anyone that considers themselves Mormon in any way, whether that's anti Jack, active tb, whatever we call it, anyone should be listening to this, because this is part of Mormonism, this case. And if you want any more proof, here you go. This was this week in court.

John Dehlin [01:45:10] I love, I love John Pryor's approach. He's like, maybe you could enlighten me. It reminds me of Phil Hartman's unfrozen dead caveman lawyer. My primitive caveman mind just can't comprehend, you know, as a lawyer, just kind of that. That inform me, enlighten me. Like, he's kind of pleasantly laying a trap, you know, for the. Megan, what did you think?

Megan Connor [01:45:35] No, I agree. It's exactly that tactic because he. Even in his opening statements, he made. Mitch. He made mention of Chad serving. I don't know, something called this. This mission thing. I don't know exactly what it is. You know, pretending like he didn't really know what it was, when you know very well that John Pryor had to have studied a lot about the church. He knows exactly what a mission is. He knows exactly what the Doctrine and Covenants is. And he's like, you know, I don't know. I'm an idiot, maybe. You tell me, what do you think?

John Dehlin [01:46:05] Although he did call him Doctrine of Covenants, and I was like, I don't know if that was intentional or not.

Megan Connor [01:46:12] And later on, he says parochial blessing instead of patriarchal. I think it's on purpose. I think he's doing it on purpose to make people think. I don't really know about this stuff. It's kind of weird.

John Dehlin [01:46:22] It's interesting. That'd be interesting to find out if he's doing that on purpose. What did y' all think of the prosecuting attorney objecting and saying the line of questioning was beyond the scope? Lauren, what'd you think of that?

John Pryor: Cross examination "went beyond the scope"

Lauren Matthias [01:46:37] Well, John Pryor's defense, very much, and this is all days, is trying to set a narrative with his questions. So John Pryor has gone beyond the scope several times. And. And what is this?

Megan Connor [01:46:50] Like.

Lauren Matthias [01:46:50] Let me explain. So we. We start right now. It's the prosecution's turn. So the prosecution is on direct. They're. They're calling their witnesses, and they have their purpose and their reason for every witness. And it's laid out in the evidence that they have and the evidence that's been gathered and what they're able. Able to do. So they're sharing the evidence. John Pryor then gets to get up for cross. Cross examination of the prosecution's witness. Cross. And during his cross, you. You actually nailed it. This is what John Prior tries to do, is ask questions that actually set a narrative. Like, so anyway, the kids were found out by the pasture, and he's setting this narrative. There's farmland. He's doing this with the religion, too. So, okay, so you know about the church. You were in it until you're 18. So you clearly know about the Doctrine and Covenants. And it mentions Church of the Firstborn. So he's setting this narrative of Chad Daybell's beliefs were just regular LDS doctrine without asking it. So is he going beyond the scope? Yes. I don't know if that's a bad thing or a wrong thing. What's happening in court is John Pryor is often going beyond the scope of what the prosecution asked their witnesses. But then John. But Judge Boyce is allowing redirect, so the. The. The prosecution gets to get back up again and redirect with how he went out of the scope, which means he has thrown religion into the scope. And then we get recross. So I do believe that he went beyond the scope, if that's your question. They weren't wanting to ask this witness. The prosecution did not call this witness to give scripture about the Doctrine and Covenants, but John Pryor was able to get there with his words. Thus he went beyond the scope. I think that that is absolutely fair for the judge to say. He did go beyond scope, but they did. They were able to do recross and redirect.

John Dehlin [01:48:47] All right, anything, Megan, before we move on to the next slide?

Megan Connor [01:48:50] Yeah, just briefly, they're trying, you know, John Pryor is trying to get the. The witness to, you know, talk about the doctrine of the church. And then later on, he's going to try to say, well, you're not really an expert, and so what do you know, kind of thing. So he's. He's setting him up to fail here.

John Pryor on Chad Daybell's Mormonism Defense

John Dehlin [01:49:06] All right. Okay. Well, let's go ahead and go to the next clip. And this has to do with John Pryor, possibly, some say, challenging the credibility of the prosecution's witness or, and. Or detective. And y' all could judge for yourself if you think the prosecution's witness, Detective, looks bad when he admits that the way he investigated this was by talking to other members of the church. All right, that's kind of just a few things to listen for or watch for.

Guest [01:49:41] She, Ms. Blake talked to you about the Church of the first, and you said that it wasn't part of the LDS faith. Is that right?

John Dehlin [01:49:47] My understanding that the two were separate

Guest [01:49:49] is what I said. Okay. But the Doctrine of the Covenants talks about the Church of the Firstborn as part of the LDS faith. So where did you get your information from? Basically, I talked to other investigators that

John Dehlin [01:50:00] were part of the LDS Church, and we had heard through this investigation earlier the mention of the Church of the Firstborn.

Guest [01:50:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:50:07] Not understanding what.

Guest [01:50:08] So you really don't know whether it's part of The LDS faith or not? The Doctrine of Covenants. Even though the Doctrine of Covenants discusses Church of the Firstborn being part of it. Right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:17] So like I said, other than I don't. Based on my knowledge.

Guest [01:50:20] Yes. Now, I, I, and I'm going to go off topic a little bit, but some of the other stuff that I saw. Zaluma Pastena is talking about light and dark, Correct. And light and dark is part of the LDS faith, too, right?

John Dehlin [01:50:33] I have no idea.

Guest [01:50:34] Okay, well, you said you familiarize yourself with it. Did you familiarize yourself with light and dark? Not totally not. What about death and death percentages and things like that? Is that part of the LDS faith?

John Dehlin [01:50:47] I've never heard of that.

Guest [01:50:48] Okay, but you don't know whether it is or not, right?

John Dehlin [01:50:50] Correct. All right, again, Lauren, you were in the room. What'd you think about that exchange?

Lauren Matthias [01:50:58] I mean, he's really pushing it. Okay, here's something that I want everyone to take into perspective, too. John Pryor really doesn't know much about the LDS faith, and he's representing. He's defending Chad Dabel, and he's known Chad Daybell for years, years and years now, because he's been defending him for. We're on almost five years now since. Since the murders. So I am certain that Chad Daybell is also pointing out to John Pryor that all these things are LDS beliefs. I do believe that Chad believes this, and I do believe that Chad believes in this defense. And he's. He's teaching John Prior about the church. I, I know that wasn't your question, but I just want to put that into people's brains for a second. Can you, can you envision this attorney. Attorney relationship with this defendant, that he's saying no? He's bringing him literature and he's saying, no, this is in the church. This is in the church. This is in the church. And so he comes up and he's asking about death percentages. You know, I've never heard of death percentages, but I want to know, what does he have up his sleeve? I'm, like, really curious because I, like, feel like they're talking and Chad's teaching him with history books and all this stuff. So I'm like, what has Chad told him about death percentages? I almost want to be like, let him loose and be like, keep going.

John Dehlin [01:52:17] Keep.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:17] I want to know, what is Chad telling you? Go on. Where is he getting this information? Because this is clearly, in my opinion, Chad Daybell's defense. It's not just John Pryor's. Defense. I think Chad Daybell is really believing in his defense that this is. That these are church teachings and everything he's teaching these people he learned in Sunday school. And so John Pryor is taking that. And, and I just, in some ways, I wonder if I don't think John Pryor's gotten as far as he thought he was going to get with this, because a lot of people just like, I, I, you know, I'm lost. I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about, but he's clearly is, you know, Chad Dable clearly believes in this, and he's saying, look, this is. This, this. I, I want to know now where in the history books death percentages are, because I, I think that John Pryor knows something.

John Dehlin [01:53:08] John Doman makes the comment a Mormon advisor might help him. In other words, this person that was picked by the prosecutor to speak as an expert to Mormonism, at least according to John Doman, is not doing a great job representing Mormonism. Like you said, they could have found an expert. Maybe the prosecutor never reached out to me. Maybe I would have had second thoughts about actually participating if the prosecutor had reached out to me. Gerardo is phoning in through text, and he says that we may be missing. The prior wanted to impeach the witness and show that he's not an expert and can't really be trusted. That's a big moment. That's, that's Roger's point of view. Megan, let's give you a chance to weigh in here.

John Pryor on His Testimony in the Joseph Smith Case

Megan Connor [01:53:55] Yeah, I'll, I'll just point out that this person was not called to be an expert in Mormonism. They were called to, you know, sort of give some of the timeline and some of the events and things like that, if I recall correctly. But, yes, I think that's what John Pryor is trying to do. He's trying to say you, you made some comments when the prosecutors asked you questions. You made some comments about Mormonism, and now you're saying you don't really know for sure and you had to talk to other officers to get your information. So John Pryor is trying to impeach his credibility and say what you told the prosecution. You know, your, your further test or your earlier testimony is not valid.

John Dehlin [01:54:34] Yeah, I really quickly, I want to. Oh, Lauren, were you gonna say something

Lauren Matthias [01:54:39] if we're missing that clip? Whenever you get to, I can kind of relay what happened because it is kind of a big deal if, if you are truly missing it. I can kind of take people through It. Because it is. It is quite the. It was quite the moment in court.

Prior: To Understand Lori Valo, We Have to Understand Chad

John Dehlin [01:54:51] Okay, let me ask you a question. Maybe Gerardo can text me and tell me if we've got that clip or not, or Megan can, because I had these. I'm watching these all for the first time. But can. Can y' all explain to me one thing? Because I should have thought this through, and I. I don't think I fully thought it through. It. I'm just being honest. So if Prior's goal is to make Chad and Lori's beliefs seem as mainstream LDS or mainstream Mormon as possible, how does that benefit Chad?

Lauren Matthias [01:55:21] Okay, this is how.

John Dehlin [01:55:22] Help me out. Thanks, Lauren. And Megan, I want to hear your. Your point, too.

Lauren Matthias [01:55:25] This is how. And this has actually been, I'm proud to say, the beginning of our podcast. My husband and I started our podcast, beyond the Veil, discussing Chad. And so everybody out the background. My husband is not lds. He's from Chicago originally, and he's a forensic and criminal psychologist. And when we started our podcast, beyond the Veil, the first episode in June of 2020, the month that the children's bodies were found, we sat down in her living room, and I said, okay, I want to talk about Lori Valo. Help us understand a woman who could kill her children. And he said, before we talk about Lori, we have to talk about Chad, because this is Chad Daybell's belief system. This is coming from Chad. Chad is the mastermind behind all of this. And in order to understand why Lori chose to do this, we have to understand her belief system. Thus, we have to understand Chad Davis about. So set the stage with that, that this all comes down to the possibility of a belief system. And where does this belief system stem from? John de Lynn says Mormonism. I'm going to take it a step further and say it comes from Chad Daba. And that's why I'm always like, don't give Chad Dabel a pass, because he took these things from Mormonism and he took it to a next level. Or as Eric Smith, his friend, says, the next tier, whatever you want to say. And he is the one relaying this. He is the one giving the blessings. So if John Pryor, his defense attorney, is able to say, no, no, this was not. This was not Chad Dabel's belief system. This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. My client is innocent. Lori and Zulema and Melanie Gibb and all these people that follow Chad, they were just following the church's teachings. This has nothing to do with my client. Then he can get away with this. We can't prove that Chad Daybell killed anyone. We can't. But what they can prove is that he conspired and that he led the charge through a belief system. But if it's not Chad Dabel's belief system, we lose a lot of ability to see Chad Dable as guilty.

Chad Daybell: If It's Not His Belief System,

John Dehlin [01:57:34] Okay. Megan, do you want to add anything about why Prior wants to tie Chad's beliefs to mainstream Mormonism?

Megan Connor [01:57:43] Yeah, I think Lauren's absolutely right. I mean, it. It is. If it's. If it's not Chad's belief system that drove the light and dark percentages and that drove the castings and that drove the teaching that when a zombie inhabits the body, then the only way to get rid of the zombie is to kill the body. These were all Chad's teachings. And so if we, if we try to equate all of that with mainstream Mormonism, then we. We can't prove any. I don't think there's any evidence that proves that Chad killed anybody. Well, maybe, Tammy, I don't know if that's going to come out later, but I mean that the. The belief system has to be part of all of this. Otherwise, you know, Chad gets away with it, at least on two counts.

Lauren Matthias [01:58:25] Chad is guilty because he created the light and dark scale, and when someone was dark, they were murdered. If that is an. A mainstream LDS belief, then Chad doesn't matter.

John Dehlin [01:58:37] What do you mean?

Lauren Matthias [01:58:38] That's why I'm always saying I don't want to give Chad Dable a pass.

Guest [01:58:40] What do you mean?

Lauren Matthias [01:58:41] Going to church and learning about a light and dark scale with decimal points. You know what I mean? But. But Chad Daybell's teaching it and sending people emails about who is light and who is dark and who is a zombie. And he's making the call about whether the casting or the exorcism is working and whether or not someone still has their evil spirit inside of them. If this is all just mainstream LDS beliefs that I don't know how much of a case we have against Chad.

John Dehlin [01:59:04] Help me understand. Help me understand that if a church. If. If Charles Manson has a church that says we should kill anyone we want to, and then he kills a bunch of people, he still goes to jail for killing people. He doesn't get off because his church believes it's okay to kill people. And that's just an extreme example.

Lauren Matthias [01:59:24] But it's. No, it's not an extreme example. It's a perfect example. It was. It was not somebody else's Church.

Guest [01:59:29] Church.

Lauren Matthias [01:59:30] It was Charles Manson's church. And this is Chad Daybell's church. In other words, yes, they were mainstream Mormon, but if they're learning these beliefs in Sunday school, then it's the Sunday school president that's. That's guilty. Charles Manson didn't go learn. Charles Manson wasn't getting word from somebody else what to do. Charles Manson was calling the shots.

John Dehlin [01:59:51] Okay? And so let me see if I'm understanding this, that if the church is teaching toxic, harmful beliefs, than if a member harms someone under the influence of those toxic beliefs, then the church is either responsible or partially responsible for the harm that's done. Whereas if this is Chad's own homegrown church, then he's fully responsible for the harm that's done. Am I hearing that right or am I missing something?

Guest [02:00:22] No, that's fair.

Megan Connor [02:00:23] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:00:23] And let me explain one more, more way, too, because a lot of crime is about who did it and blaming somebody else. You know, the Rust trial that just happened has nothing to do with Mormonism or church or anything. But, you know, the Alec Baldwin film where tragically, a director was killed, a filmmaker, a mother, and a lot of people are fascinated with that case because it's a whodunit case. Who, who should be held responsible is Alec Baldwin's fault because he had a sloppy movie set? Is it the armor's fault? Because that was her job to make sure there wasn't a bullet in a, in a prop, you know, that killed this filmmaker and this mother. The who done it is a really important part of the crime. So if, if, if John Pryor is going to take that a step further. Well, who, who did this? If the belief system is a big part of the motive, then is the who done at the LDS Church, then is it the LDS Church's fault? Are they the murderers? Is President Nelson the murderer? Is. Is Joseph Smith the murderer? If you, if you can blame somebody else, that's the best way to get your guy off. But if it's Chad Daybell that created this belief system, if it's Chad Dabel that created the light and dark scale, if it's Chad Dabel saying who is and who isn't a zombie, which I, I want to say right now. He did. He did. Then. Then it's. Then. Then you can't blame anybody else. If that's a good way to.

John Dehlin [02:01:47] Okay?

Lauren Matthias [02:01:47] And that doesn't mean that the church shouldn't be held responsible and we shouldn't be looking at these issues with saying that I knew you in the Pre existence, or I'm gonna. Oh, look, since the Church of the Firstborn exists, I'm gonna go start my own. That. That doesn't mean they aren't responsible. And we shouldn't be looking at the system, which is what Mormon stories does, which is why this is so important to be talking about. Like, this system created this, and we should hold the system responsible. But are we going to blame the system for murder or are we going to blame Chad Daybell for murder?

Gerardo On The Chad Daybell Case

John Dehlin [02:02:18] Got it. Got it. Got it. Megan, did you want to add anything?

Megan Connor [02:02:25] No, I just. I. I agree with Lauren, and I think it's going to be John Pryor's. You know, it. It has been sort of his narrative this whole time that. That Chad is just a regular Mormon guy and he got seduced by Laurie, and it was Laurie and Alex that. That actually did the killings and carried all of this stuff out. And Tammy died of natural causes.

John Dehlin [02:02:46] Got it. Because I love Gerardo and he's super smart. Smarter than me. I'm going to read what he writes as well. Not that Lauren and Megan haven't fully explained it, but Gerardo writes, the answer is that the evidence against Chad is mostly circumstantial. According to Gerardo, it's his opinion, things like weird texts and talk about zombies and light and dark, they're not literally talking about killing the kids on their text messages. So if Prior can show that these zombie and light and dark talk, all of this is mainstream Mormonism, how can this prove that Chad killed the kids? So that's the way Gerardo's explaining it. And that's just a different point of view. In addition to Lawrence. Thanks.

Megan Connor [02:03:35] Totally valid. Sorry. I remember in Lori's trial, you know, that was kind of the closing. The closing statement to some of these witnesses. You know, they were going over the text messages and they were talking about light and dark, and they were talking about zombies, and they were talking about castings. And the. The. The defense attorney's final cross examination said, did these. Did any of these text messages ever say, let's kill the kids?

Lauren Matthias [02:04:02] Well, no.

Megan Connor [02:04:03] Did any of these text messages ever say, let's hurt the kids? No. Did it. Did any of the text messages ever say, I'm gonna kill Charles? No. And so that was. That was the narrative. They never literally said it. And so they're trying to just blame it all on, you know, it was circumstantial and it was a belief system, but it wasn't real.

John Dehlin [02:04:23] Got it. Okay. This is great. Thank you both the great analysis. I Should say, people are. People are getting mad at me if I go, that's fantastic. Good job, or I love it if I say that. And I mean your analysis, they don't like it. If it sounds like I'm saying great people died, like, that's love it.

Lauren Matthias [02:04:44] Awesome.

John Dehlin [02:04:46] People are. Give great feedback. Okay, let's go to slide 11. I. I think we may have missed this one, so let's make sure we didn't miss it. This is slide 11, where I thought we played this, but let's just make sure if we played again. That's the sheet.

The Doctrine of the Covenants, Slide 11

Guest [02:05:02] Ms. Blake talked to you about the Church of the first, and you said that it wasn't part of the LDS faith. Is that right?

John Dehlin [02:05:08] My understanding that the two were separate is what I said.

Guest [02:05:11] Okay. But the Doctrine of the Covenants talks about the Church of the Firstborn as part of the LDS faith. So where did you get your information from?

John Dehlin [02:05:19] Basically, I talked to other investigators that were part of the LDS Church, and.

Megan Connor [02:05:24] Yeah, you're right.

John Dehlin [02:05:24] John heard through this investigation earlier. Okay. Okay. All right.

Megan Connor [02:05:28] I thought that Gerardo was saying that we missed that slide, but we were just missing the point.

John Dehlin [02:05:34] Oh, okay. Got it, Got it. All right.

Lauren Matthias [02:05:36] What happened? Because it was.

John Dehlin [02:05:38] Yeah, you were there. Please, Lauren.

Megan Connor [02:05:40] I was going to say, let's go to the next one and see if the next one plays it, because I think that's the caption for this slide.

The Desecration of The Mormons

Lauren Matthias [02:05:45] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:05:46] All right, so this one, to set this up, some description is. After Prior has shown the detective doesn't know how much, doesn't know much about the oldest faith, he will now question. Let me take the view off of Lauren. He will now question him about Chad's other beliefs, trying to show that the detective can't be trusted on his expertise of what Mormons believe or don't believe. That's the analysis of this clip. Now y' all judge for yourselves.

Guest [02:06:15] Okay. And then we heard about some vibrations. I. I heard the word vibrations a couple of times. Are you familiar with that term within the LDS faith about vibrations?

Demonic Possessions in Mormonism

John Dehlin [02:06:24] I am not.

Guest [02:06:25] What about being possessed by spirits and praying for the removal from your body is. Have you heard about that?

Lauren Matthias [02:06:32] I have not.

Guest [02:06:32] Okay, but you don't know whether any of these theories are part of the LDS faith, right?

John Dehlin [02:06:37] Correct.

Guest [02:06:38] Okay. Are you aware that in the LDS faith that if someone is possessed that if you pray for them, you can have them removed from their body? Are you aware of that? I am not.

John Dehlin [02:06:50] Okay, can I just say really quickly? Never in my 45 years of active, faithful Mormonism Did I ever hear the term zombie used in any mainstream context? Not once. This concept of light and dark as it applies to judging whether the person is full zombie or still has that spirit in there somewhere. Never heard that ever in all my years. Now, of course, the light and dark that I referred to earlier of like a darker countenance or they're losing the spirit. You can see they're darker. The darkness in their eyes. Yes, that, but not what Chad was doing. More specifically, I want to acknowledge, and I also want to acknowledge that this idea of vibrations was never part of my mainstream Mormon upbringing. Where. Where I started hearing about vibrations is when I moved to Utah and sort of New age, New age crystals, like memory testing, muscle testing, Reiki kind of New age beliefs started to infiltrate even essential oils. As those things started to infiltrate Mormon culture. That's when I started hearing about things like vibrations. That's not traditional orthodox Mormon doctrine in my experience, but the one thing I will say is demonic possession. And this is where I had a conversation with my dear friend. Demonic possession, 100% Mormon. Mormon doctrine. I can't tell you the hundreds of missionaries and Mormons that have emailed me about their demonic possession stories as mainstream believing Mormons, as missionaries, as members of bishoprics, etc. Demonic possession is both extremely Mormon and extremely Christian in my view. Okay, sorry, I had to rant a little bit. Lauren, why don't you go next?

Lauren Matthias [02:08:50] Follow that.

John Dehlin [02:08:51] Yeah, take me down.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:54] Well, I do appreciate you saying that. Again, I want to put blame where blame is. Chad Daybell took a lot of this and I will say I don't think that if we're going to talk systems and holding systems responsible. I don't think it was just Mormonism that inspired Chad Dabel. I think there's a little bit of Q involved. I think there's some political inspiration here. I think there's some Hollywood inspo. So I do appreciate you actually saying that and I. That we need to put blame where, you know. Yes. And I want to say as a. As a. As someone who, you know, was raised lds, I do recall, like blessings over places like dedications. But I can honestly tell you, as someone who went to church every week, you know, I agree with you that demonic possession is Mormon or Christian. Christ cast out evil spirits. But I can also tell you that I never experienced that as someone that's lds, but I agree with you. So I just think there are a variety of garden variety of Mormons. That's a barber term right there.

John Dehlin [02:10:05] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:10:06] Barbarism.

John Dehlin [02:10:07] Okay, Megan, Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:10:09] As a card carrying member of the church for, you know, most of my life, I never heard anything about dark and light or castings or anything like that.

Lauren Matthias [02:10:21] But.

Megan Connor [02:10:22] But there definitely was the. The talk of evil spirits. And. And I just always remember the phrase from the hymn. I think it's, dearest children, God is near you. There's a line that says, dearest children, holy angels watch your actions night and day, and they keep a faithful record of the good and bad you say. And I took that very literally as a member, even to the point where I didn't want to say things out loud unless I was, you know, I was watching what I. What I said, essentially because I'm like, oh, somebody's going to write that down. I didn't. I wouldn't even pray out loud because I also was taught that the adversary can hear your prayers and he knows what you're talking about. And so he. He knows ways to tempt you then. And you know that those kinds of things stuck with me for a really long time, and it took me a really long time to, like, deprogram myself from believing that I was literally being watched all the time.

John Dehlin [02:11:27] Got it. Okay, great. All right, well, let's go to the next slide. The sort of. The description characterizes in this clip is Chad being smug. Prior describing this as an unusual case with a lot of talk about religion. Prior tries to put into question the credibility of the detective. And if he tried to pass as an expert on Mormonism and then later said he doesn't know much about Mormonism, how can we trust him? So let's go ahead and play the next clip.

Prior vs. Chad Daybell

Guest [02:12:11] This is unusual case because there's a lot of talk about religion. I agree. And Mr. Daybell, do you know how long that. That blessing thing went on for?

John Dehlin [02:12:22] I have no idea.

Guest [02:12:23] Yeah, me neither. And

Megan Connor [02:12:32] it.

John Dehlin [02:12:32] Was it written?

Guest [02:12:33] Was he reading off of something? I wasn't there.

Lauren Matthias [02:12:36] Sorry.

Guest [02:12:37] You didn't. You didn't hear pages in the video of him turning pages or anything? I thought I heard some pages turning. I heard a garage door open. Okay, I didn't hear that. Well, all right. Well, you got better ears than I do. We talked about that before. You know what Chad Daybell did for a living, right? I. I know he was an author. I don't know. And as I was listening to that, it sounded like someone was writing a book. Would you agree with that?

Lauren Matthias [02:13:09] Objection, Your honor. I'm going to ask that the narrative be stricken. I think council can ask questions, but

Megan Connor [02:13:14] there's narrative being added.

John Dehlin [02:13:18] I'M gonna make a ruling, Ms.

Guest [02:13:19] Prior.

John Dehlin [02:13:19] So on the last question, I'll overrule that. But to the extent it does become more narrative, Ms. Blake, you can object again.

Guest [02:13:30] Now, you know the name's Melanie Gibb.

John Dehlin [02:13:34] Yes.

Guest [02:13:35] Did you ever interview her?

John Dehlin [02:13:36] I did.

Guest [02:13:37] Okay. And David Warwick.

John Dehlin [02:13:40] I know the name, but I never interviewed him.

Guest [02:13:42] And would I could represent to you that she was dating Melanie Gibb, eventually married Melanie Gibbs. Pressure. Okay. And then Zaluma Pastenez. Yes. Okay. All of these folks, members of the LDS faith.

John Dehlin [02:13:57] It's my understanding, yes.

Guest [02:13:59] Okay. And all of them are made numerous references to some, at least what I would consider unusual beliefs.

John Dehlin [02:14:06] True.

Guest [02:14:07] Talking about. As members of the LDS faith, they talk about vibrations. We've heard that, right?

John Dehlin [02:14:13] Correct.

Guest [02:14:14] They talk about probationary periods.

John Dehlin [02:14:21] I've heard that term, yes.

Guest [02:14:22] Right. And that deals with what you did in your life before in that. In that particular faith, what your. Your role was in. In life before, right? If you say so. Well, I'm asking you because I don't. You don't know about that? I don't know. Okay. And then there's some references to God and goddesses. You've heard about that, right?

John Dehlin [02:14:41] I have heard that, yes.

Guest [02:14:42] Okay. And in the reference to God and goddesses, are you aware that in the LDS faith that as you move forward, you become a God and a goddess in their faith?

John Dehlin [02:14:52] I'm not, no.

Guest [02:14:53] Okay. And have you. Are you aware that in the LDS faith that when you. That their God lives on a planet and then angels are brought down to communicate with us?

John Dehlin [02:15:04] I am not familiar with that.

Guest [02:15:05] Not familiar. How long were you involved in that faith? Until I was 18. Okay, so is it because you're not aware of it, or is it because you don't believe it was part of the faith? No, I chose to practice a different religion. Okay, so you're not aware. You're just telling me you don't know whether it's true or not. Correct. Okay, thank you.

John Pryor on Chad Dabel's Mormonism

John Dehlin [02:15:25] All right. As the guy who tries to focus on talking about Mormonism, I'm just gonna referee there. Probationary periods. A thousand percent mainstream Mormon doctrine. The spirit prison is where you go after you die if you haven't done all the right Mormon things and you wait there and get taught to then decide whether or not you, you know, get to ultimately inherit whatever kingdom God wants to assign you to. So probationary periods. 100% core Mormon doctrine. This idea of theosis that men and women can become gods and goddesses. 100 Mormon doctrine. Joseph Smith taught it as man is God once was. And as God is man may become a thousand percent Mormon doctrine God living on a planet. Not only does God live on planet, but Joseph Smith came up with the name of the planet God lives on and he called it what, what Megan and Lauren Kolob A O L O B.

Lauren Matthias [02:16:28] So that's also the place I got married. Bad joke. But, but Kolob Canyon.

John Dehlin [02:16:35] Oh okay, yeah, that's a thousand percent angels communicating with men. That's like Joseph Smith began by Moroni visiting him. The first vision story came like seven years after the Moroni story for Mormons don't know that, but that's pretty factual. And then when this guy admits that he left Mormonism at age 18, that means he never went through the temple, which is where a lot of the stuff you're literally promised in the Mormon Temple that you will become gods and goddesses once you take out your endowments and do the whole thing. And, and you know, it's got gods and Jesus and Adam and Michael and you know, Peter, James and John walking around on a celestial planet with white robes and white beards and talking to each other. And it's showing Heavenly Father and Jesus, Elohim and Michael creating, you know, planets and worlds without end and thousand percent Mormon stuff there. And so yeah, this guy immediately. And I guess Megan, you're saying he wasn't there to be a Mormon expert so we shouldn't be holding him to the expectation of being a Mormon expert or is that, is that what you're saying, Megan?

Megan Connor [02:17:47] Yeah, that's right. He wasn't, he wasn't called as a witness to, you know, to be the one that dictates what Mormon doctrine is or isn't. I think John Pryor is just trying to, he's trying to lead his narrative once again. But I think right here he's kind of proving the cost, the prosecution's point that none of this was mainstream Mormonism because this guy's like, I don't know, I've never heard of that before.

Lauren Matthias [02:18:09] That's. I think the problem with what he's doing is Megan's right. So that's what we mean by, that's what the judge means by he's going beyond the scope. This is not a Mormon expert. He's just trying to set this narrative with cross exam that these things are mainstream Mormon beliefs and it's, it's not working. I agree with Wiegand. Every person up there that is a law enforcement is like, yeah, don't know what you're talking about, which is why I do suspect that Chad Dabel is a little bit too confident in his defense. I can picture him saying, oh, yeah, any Mormon. Come on, John. Part. Any Mormon knows about this, they're going to know about this. Just bring it up. I got you. And then he's bringing it up and they're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. It's kind of backfiring.

John Dehlin [02:18:54] I will add, just for fun, just for the nerds out there who want to nerd out on Mormonism, that it is a relatively modern change in Mormon doctrine and culture, probably starting in the 1980s, for the Mormon Church to downplay and dismiss this teaching about theosis, about men and women becoming gods and goddesses. Because what happened in the early, you know, late 1970s, early 1980s, a movie called the God Makers came out. And that's when evangelical Christians came hard at Mormons because they saw how much the Mormon Church was growing. They were feeling threatened or they were feeling offended by Mormon doctrine and theology. And so they created a movie called the God Makers that started attacking Mormons for their belief that men and women can become gods and goddesses as heretical. And that didn't, you know, that didn't sit well on the church's image. And so Mormon prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, starting in the 80s, started downplaying and dismissing that core Mormon doctrine that Joseph Smith taught by calling it just a couplet, saying things to, like, Mike Wallace or Larry King. I forget who's like, well, we don't know a lot about that. I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we practice it. Whatever it was that he said,

Guest [02:20:19] he

John Dehlin [02:20:19] tried to downplay it because it sounds so. Not only odd, but it sounds blasphemous to mainstream Christians. So that's something that is core Mormon doctrine that a modern Mormon apologist will downplay. But, you know, Lauren and Megan, was that a part of your Mormon upbringing to be taught that that's our destiny, that the plan of the Mormon Plan of Salvation, the pinnacle of that, is the celestial kingdom where we'll literally become gods and goddesses who ruling over our own planets as God and Heavenly mother or mothers does right now?

Megan Connor [02:20:57] Yeah. And if you want to kind of. Sorry, Lauren, I.

Lauren Matthias [02:20:59] No, you go first.

Megan Connor [02:21:01] If you want to take it, take it even a step further than that. We're taught that only people who make it to the celestial kingdom are going to have the opportunity to have children. When you have your own planet. Right. You're. You're only going to be. Be a God and a goddess if you're sealed. First of all, you have to be sealed to a man. You can't do this alone as a woman. And you have to, you know, make it to the celestial kingdom in order to become a God and a goddess and then have your own spirit children. So you're not going to be able to procreate in the next life unless you're, unless you make it to the celestial kingdom.

Mormons on Eternal Progression

John Dehlin [02:21:36] All right. And Lauren, you were dying to jump in, so. Lauren.

Megan Connor [02:21:39] No, no, I wasn't dying.

Lauren Matthias [02:21:40] I was just, you know, I, I wasn't taught like that. I was taught. I was taught. I'll tell you what I was taught that in eternal progression, the belief in, you know, the question of whether or not it would be really fun to just praise Jesus for eternity on a cloud. Would we like that? Maybe to know that we can progress, continuing on into the hereafter forever and ever might sound more satisfying. I actually think, just so everybody knows that this is where the idea of Mormons saying that there is more work being done on the other side comes from. This is something, you know, that we, we believe. Mormons believe in eternal progression. I would say it was never taught to me. And then you get to your own planet and you have to have spirit babies and you have to have a man. I'm not saying that others weren't. I feel like I always need to preface that with this. I'm not saying others weren't taught that my upbringing did not include that, but it did include, which is pretty much a reworded version of eternal progression. And that you get to take the things you learned with you and continue on into eternity and, and continue to work. And I was also, yes, taught though, that you can't go somewhere without a man, but they can't go somewhere without a woman. And I, I don't want to get into that right now, John. I can't even see them. But I'm like, I don't want to go there. So just, let's just. I don't even wanna. That's for another episode. I do not want any cross exam on what I just said. I moved beyond the scope, so let's move on.

The Doctrine of Becoming Like God

John Dehlin [02:23:26] I'll just say I just googled. The Mormon Church has a super long essay on becoming like God. I would say that this is a modern correlated explanation. It's highly correlated, which means that it's doing its best to finesse and not look weird or odd. So you have to really read between the lines, but I'll just skip forward to the conclusion. And it says, all human beings are children of loving heavenly parents and possess seeds of divinity within them. In his infinite love, God invites his children to cultivate their eternal potential by the grace of God through the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. The doctrine of humans eternal potential to become like their heavenly father. And I'd say mother, is central to the gospel of Jesus Christ and inspires love, hope and gratitude in the hearts of faithful Latter Day Saints. So again, I think that language is softened to be more appealing. But even that I think calls the doctrine central. So that's my case. We don't have to belabor that point. All right, let's go ahead and jump to the next slide, which is John Pryor saying, oh, by the way, I, I just have to share this for fun. This is a little challenge. Lauren, you'll like this. Texas cat says, I'm here for Lauren. John Dehlin is a toxic agenda driven, anti Mormon. And maybe that's true.

John Dehlin: I'm Wrong About Mormonism, but I'll

Lauren Matthias [02:25:08] Take that. There you go. That was one of my socks. I was like, hey, go on, get

John Dehlin [02:25:12] on there and go after Josh.

Lauren Matthias [02:25:15] Those are my stock accounts. I'm like, yeah, get them, get them where it hurts. No, I'm just kidding.

John Dehlin [02:25:20] I would, I would. You know, in all serious, that is fun. And in all seriousness, if someone wants to show where something that I've said is wrong, inaccurate, I would love you to share that in the comments. And I'll share it. And if I'm wrong, I'll apologize. I feel pretty good about my general understanding of Mormonism. I've been doing this for, for 20 or 30 years, depending on. But, but I'm, but I'm wrong all the time. I'm wrong every day. So I welcome any of you to show me my ways. The error of my ways. Okay, let's go to the next, the next slide. This is where John Prior says he wants to show that Chad's beliefs are not out of the realm of discussion within the LDS faith. Let's see if John Pryor makes his case here.

John Pryor: Exercising Demonic Spirits In The LDS Church

Guest [02:26:09] And, and there's. We're not trying to dis. You agree with me. We're not trying to disparage the LDS faith. Right. No, we're just trying to point out that the stuff they're talking about may not be something that's out of the realm of discussion within that faith. Right.

John Dehlin [02:26:23] I would agree.

Guest [02:26:23] When you're talking about spirits and, and exercising spirits such as Ned. I guess we talked about Ned. Right? That Wasn't with you, with Ned. Never mind. But that. But that's all of this stuff, because these folks were all actively involved in the LDS faith. These are things that came up as.

Megan Connor [02:26:43] Your honor.

Lauren Matthias [02:26:43] Objection, Counsel. Stating facts not in evidence.

Megan Connor [02:26:46] And again, this is a narrative.

John Dehlin [02:26:53] All right, Lauren, you were in the room. What'd you think about that?

Lauren Matthias [02:26:57] Well, I just want to point out that when I bring up that Chad DL Had a lot of inspo. From other places besides Mormonism. Ned Schneider is. Is maybe one example. He did not get that name for Mormonism. And I actually, I kid you not. I. I have a belief, and I've gone down this rabbit hole that I actually think he named a lot of the zombies after characters found in the Simpsons for Hillary. I do think that one was political. So there's. He's. You know, I'm just saying. So Ned comes up. Megan, what. What did you think, though, of that? I mean, this is stuff. I mean, I know this is. You can't make this stuff up. Some. Someone. I don't know if you've seen Jury duty, John. If not, you got to watch it.

John Dehlin [02:27:41] Yeah, I need to see it.

Lauren Matthias [02:27:43] But it's like an experiment. This guy thinks he's in jury duty, and he's really not. It's just this wild experience. And some people said, do these. Are these people wondering, like, what the actual is going on here, or do they think this is some kind of experiment in there? I wonder. Some of them think they're, like, being spoofed right now. Anyway, Megan.

Megan Connor [02:27:58] Yeah. I think Chad and Alex shared an affection for the symptom Simpsons. Simpsons. Because Alex's email address was Homer J. Maximus, I think.

Lauren Matthias [02:28:12] Well, there you go. There you go. Proven my point. Megan.

John Dehlin [02:28:17] I was just putting on my Mormon hat again. I will just say that this idea of exercising demonic spirits, it's not just a core Mormon doctrine. It's a core feature of the priesthood. In the Mormon temple ceremony, literally, Peter, James, and John, if I remember correctly, it's been a while. They're in the Garden of Eden. Satan's there. They literally raised their hand to the square and cast out Satan from the garden. I've already showed their graphics on the Mormon Church's website where it shows a man standing up with his arm to the square casting out a demon, and it shows the demon or the spirit running away. If you go right now, Google, go to Mormon churchofjesuschrist.org or whatever it is, and you Google casting out of spirits, casting out of demons, you'll find potentially dozens of references to prophet seers and revelators and Mormon scripture talking about the casting out of demons or the exercising of evil spirits. And again, I, I heard stories growing up of people doing this. Lots of missionaries do it or hear about it on their missions, and it's, it's not necessarily done every day or by everyone, but I would say it's a core. I did a survey, and between 30 and 40% of the people I've surveyed had some story about either being either exercising demons or spirits or seeing someone try to exercise demons or spirits, or, you know, hearing from a family member or friend or missionary companion stories about exercising demons or evil spirits. But you are not going to be able to convince me that at least 30 to 40% of Mormons, you know, the idea of exercising demons or spirits wasn't a part of their Mormon upbringing, or isn't to this day, the only other thing I'll say back to the critic, you know, if I can dish it back a little bit to that critic who just called me unfair and unbiased, I would say that some orthodox or believing Mormons, when they hear truths about their church that they feel are embarrassing or that they don't know about or that they worry are going to hurt their reputation, sometimes they'll call the person saying those truths anti Mormon or, or, or they'll call them bad names. They'll say they have an ax to grind or they have a dark countenance or whatever because they are uncomfortable with hearing the quiet things said out loud. And so that's just a little bit of a friendly counter. Again, y' all don't have to agree with that. I just want to, I'll give, but, you know, I'll also take a little bit and all that.

Lauren Matthias [02:31:08] Lauren, I sense a dark spirit, and I'm gonna say that you're a 4.6 right now. And so you can take that York friendly counter and throw that back at it.

Megan Connor [02:31:19] Sorry.

Lauren Matthias [02:31:20] Go ahead, Megan. That's all I got.

Megan Connor [02:31:22] No, you're fine. I, I, When I was about 13 years old, there was a girl in my Sunday school class who we all kind of thought was a little bit odd. She was a little bit out there. She was a little bit kooky. So every time she raised her hand, we expected something crazy to come out of her mouth. And I will never forget the Sunday school lesson where she, she said, oh, yeah, I know how to tell the difference between an evil spirit and a good spirit. If you, if you reach out your hand and you ask the spirit to Shake your hand. The. The evil spirit will offer his hand, but the good spirit won't offer his hand. And I remember we all just, like, turned it and looked at her, and we were like, what are you talking about? And then, to my shock and horror, the Sunday school teacher said, oh, yeah, it's right here in the Doctrine and Covenants. And I was like, what? Are you serious? This is a real thing? I mean, it was the first time that I was really taken aback by something that I was really surprised to hear. Wait, this is something we actually believe? So that was a strange moment for me.

John Pryor on Giving a Patriarch Blessing

John Dehlin [02:32:25] Yeah, yeah. And. And if we wanted to, I could pull up. I'll. You know, I'll give people the reference. I'll just show this on the screen. I'll show it. I'll maximize it. Doctrine and Covenants, section 129, verses 4 through 7 explains that if a messenger is a resurrected being whose flesh one feels when shaking hands, that the messenger is an angel from God. But spirits that are evil and are trying to deceive you cannot clasp hands since they do not have flesh and bones with which to do it. And according to Joseph Smith and Jesus and Mormon doctrine, an evil spirit will try to shake your hand. And this is in Mormon scripture. And then you'll go to shake it, but then you won't feel anything. And that's how you know it's an evil spirit 100% in Mormon scripture, Doctrine and Covenants. Okay, let's go ahead and go to the next slide where Prior apparently states that giving a patriarchal blessing is not a crime. Let's roll that.

Guest [02:33:39] So you're not suggesting because Chad Daybell gave Alex Cox a patriarchal prayer, that in some way he was involved in the killing of Charles Valow, are you?

John Dehlin [02:33:54] I didn't say that.

Lauren Matthias [02:33:55] Okay.

Guest [02:33:56] And from what I understand, and. And please correct me, you have 18 years more experience than I do. I have zero. Giving a patriarchal prayer to someone, regardless of whether you can do it or not, is that a crime in Maricopa County?

John Dehlin [02:34:17] No.

Guest [02:34:18] Okay. You wouldn't think that's a crime anywhere, right? Correct. It may not be the best religious practice. There may be other issues, but it's not a crime anywhere, right?

John Dehlin [02:34:30] Correct.

Guest [02:34:30] And you would agree with me that just because you give someone a patriarchal prayer, a very, very long, long patriarchal prayer, that that isn't to insinuate that you've committed any kind of a crime, right? Correct. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:34:46] All right. What do you guys think? No crime in a patriarchal blessing.

Lauren Matthias [02:34:50] I mean, it's true. There's no crime there.

John Dehlin [02:34:54] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [02:34:54] I mean, I agree, Prior.

Megan Connor [02:34:57] I just want to point out that every time John Pryor mentions the length of Chad's patriarchal blessing, he smirks. He's really proud that that patriarchal blessing was such a long blessing. He's really, really proud of himself.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:13] I agree.

Megan Connor [02:35:14] I agree.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:14] I noticed that, too.

John Dehlin [02:35:16] Have y' all ever experienced the Long Mormon prayer before?

Megan Connor [02:35:20] Yes, more times than I care to recount.

John Dehlin [02:35:24] Yeah, we can give log prayers.

Megan Connor [02:35:27] Uncle Barry's prayers were the longest prayers in history.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:30] Oh, yeah. I can't imagine. You can't imagine.

Chad Sent a Message To Lori

John Dehlin [02:35:35] All right, let's roll the next clip. I'll just roll it.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:40] Just read those into the record.

John Dehlin [02:35:41] Chad sent Lori a message stating, I love you.

Guest [02:35:45] This is terrible, but it is probably another step. And bringing down the Gadiantons, especially Brandon.

John Dehlin [02:35:52] Lori sent Chad a message to Chad?

Guest [02:35:54] Nope.

John Dehlin [02:35:54] He can change it anytime he wants. He's the agent. And anyone can change their beneficiary anytime with their own signature.

Guest [02:36:02] I'm thinking it must be K. Chad

John Dehlin [02:36:05] sent a message to Lori. It will be interested.

Guest [02:36:10] Interesting.

John Dehlin [02:36:10] If it got changed after he had two bullets in his chest. Man, that's dark. They're talking about life insurance policies, beneficiaries and death and murder. Megan, do you want to start on that?

milo on Charles and the Gadianton Robbers

Megan Connor [02:36:24] Yeah. I put this clip in here because this was testimony about, obviously, Charles or. Yeah, Charles having changed the beneficiary on his life insurance and Lori finding out about it. And I. I only put it in there because she made reference to the Gadian. And for those who are not Mormon or who haven't read the Book of Mormon, the Gadianton Robbers were a group of.

Lauren Matthias [02:36:47] Of robbers.

John Dehlin [02:36:50] I'm sorry,

Megan Connor [02:36:52] who, you know, who wreaked all kinds of havoc in Book of Mormon times. And they were, you know, it was Gaddy Anton. Robbers were synonymous with just really evil people. And it's kind of this theme throughout the Book of Mormon of secret combinations, meaning people who are forming groups that have secret rituals and secret handshakes and secret meetings and secret beliefs, and they go around committing crimes and killing people. And so they're caught. They're trying to say that the person who changed the beneficiary, or they're trying to say that all these people that are against Lori are Gaddy Anton. But to me, that that description kind of matches the cult more than it does anybody else.

Mormon Church Text Messages About Justifiable Murder

John Dehlin [02:37:41] All right, Megan, Lauren, what's your take?

Lauren Matthias [02:37:44] I mean, I. I start to get irreverent during these times in court. Not not the part, not the dark parts, but when we bring up Gaddy Anton robbers. And I hear that these, these, the, this crew is like texting each other about Gaddy Ant and robbers. And I can't help but just roll my eyes a little bit. But this is about as Mormon as you can get. And there was a moment where they explained who the Gadianton robbers are in court and they have to do a whole description about them being in the Book of Mormon. But yeah, just this is what is happening in court every day.

Megan Connor [02:38:19] Yeah. And we haven't gotten there yet with the evidence on this trial, but they're later on. There are text messages between Zulema and Lori where Zulema asks, asks what happened with Charles, and Laurie responds that it was a Nephi Laban ending. And that's a reference in the Book of Mormon just within the first few pages of the Book of Mormon where Nephi gets commanded by an angel to chop off the head of Laban, who's the wicked king who's trying to keep Nephi from getting the golden plates that the Book of Mormon is written on.

John Dehlin [02:38:50] And that's a great thing to bring up, Megan, because again, no, the Mormon Church doesn't necessarily produce more murders per capita. And of course the Mormon Church teaches murder is evil except in chapter three of the Book of Mormon. So three chapters in to the book that the Mormon Church teaches is the most correct book on earth, more accurate than the Bible has the fullness of the gospel. Right on chapter three, the main hero of the first half of the book, his name is Nephi, receives a vision from God that he's supposed to kill this man named Laban by chopping off his head to get these things called the brass plates, which is basically to get his scriptures. And so, you know, the Mormonism's most sacred scripture is basically too many saying if you get a deep spiritual prompting that you should kill someone, it's from God and you gotta obey God. And of course, most Mormons would never follow that, but some have. And another example of that is the Lafferty brothers who were featured in the the biography by John Krakauer called Under the Banner of Heaven. And there was a documentary made about that, and there have been others who were influenced by that teaching. And again, this is something the Mormon Church leaders could just say, hey, whatever it says in the Book of Mormon, if, if you ever feel that God is telling you to kill somebody, disregard it. That's Satan. Don't ever do it. But they've never, ever done that, and so that leaves people, some people to conclude that if, if the Spirit tells them to do it, they got to obey the Spirit, because that's what the Book of Mormon says. I know that's strong, but I, I think you're right of first, Nephi is problematic, in my opinion.

Lauren Matthias [02:40:53] It's incredibly problematic. And you can equate it that, that's a, that's absolutely a story. They need to stop teaching. So, you know, I have the scripture memorized. It is better that one man perish than a nation dwindle in unbelief, because I was taught that and they need to stop teaching that. But the same with Abraham and Isaac. That's another terrible story from the Bible that they just need to stop teaching. We should probably all stop teaching those types of stories.

Megan Connor [02:41:23] Yeah. Mainstream members are really quick to point out that, you know, Nephi didn't just receive a spiritual prompting to kill Laban. He was visited by an angel. And so that made it okay. I'm sorry, it's still not okay. It's still not okay to teach about justifiable homicide when you're, when you've got a group of people who are receiving personal revelation, who believe that every good feeling that they have comes from God. And maybe it's, you know, they're getting a good feeling about. Let's take the example of Lori and Chad. You know, Lori sits in this, in this meeting that Chad speaks at, and Chad starts saying, some of you here are going to be instrumental in gathering the 144,000. And Lori's really excited to be meeting in person. This author that she's fangirled over for such a long time that these butterflies in her stomach or whatever she interprets as the spirit of God telling her, you're going to be one of the 144,000. And then sure enough, she goes up to Chad after the meeting probably and says, hey, I think it's me. I think I'm going to be one of those. And Chad's like, I'll tell this girl anything she wants to hear. So, yeah, you know what? You are going to be instrumental. You see just how quickly it gets. It goes off the rails.

John Dehlin [02:42:37] Yeah. And. And I, I made a mistake. I just fact checked myself. It's not First Nephi chapter three, it's First Nephi chapter four. So open up your scriptures, brothers and sisters, to First Nephi chapter four. Are you guys laughing? I see some smiles there and I'll just read it. And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause that I might obtain the records according to his commandments. Therefore, I did obey the voice of the spirit and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword. Sword. So that's Nephi in the Book of Mormon, smiting off Laban's head with his own sword. God couldn't just, like, given special powers to put Laban asleep to make him doze off a little bit or turn the other way, had to lop off his head. There is no other way. All right, the very last slide that we have.

Melanie Gibb on Protecting the LDS Church

Megan Connor [02:43:42] Lauren wants to comment.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:44] Please keep going. It can wait.

Megan Connor [02:43:46] Okay, well, so before we do the last slide, I'll just explain what it is. So, yesterday, Melanie Gibb was on the stand. And if you'll remember, Melanie Gibb is Lori's bestie. Bestie. And so she was there for all of this, and she had a front row seat to everything. And she very early on, planted this seed with, you know, with prosecutors and. And defense attorneys alike, that her memory wasn't very good. And I think she did that specifically because she didn't want to say everything that she knew she wanted to be able to say, I don't recall. We call her Melanie Fib. She just keeps saying, I don't recall over and over. And then if she gets caught out on a lie or something, she says, oh, yeah, that's just because my memory is so bad. So I will say I. I didn't clip the entirety of her testimony because it takes her 15 minutes to answer one question. And that's not an exaggeration. The question is that she had text communications with Rob Wood, who is the prosecuting attorney. And in one of those text communications, she says something about protecting the church. And so John Pryor is trying to destroy her credibility by saying that her main goal in testifying was not to tell the truth, but it was to protect the church. And it takes Melanie Gibb 15 minutes to answer that question and say that, no, she wasn't, but I clipped out just a portion of it so that we could get the gist of what she's saying.

John Dehlin [02:45:16] All right, let's look. This is the final clip, and then we have a few more closing statements to make. So stay to the end for all the value here. Let's go ahead and play this final clip.

Guest [02:45:30] You send Rob Wood a text at that time, correct?

Lauren Matthias [02:45:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:45:34] And there's Lord, bottom left.

Guest [02:45:36] The text was from you to Rob Wood.

Lauren Matthias [02:45:38] Correct.

Guest [02:45:39] And in the. The text, you talked About Keith, the guy from Dateline and I. Right. And is that the Keith Morrison? Is that the guy we're talking about?

Lauren Matthias [02:45:50] Yes.

Guest [02:45:51] Okay. Want to make sure the church is protected. Do you recall that? Yes. He has done a good job so far. That's why I feel comfortable talking to him. Is that what you said to the prosecutor?

Lauren Matthias [02:46:12] I think so, yes.

Guest [02:46:14] Is there any reason to dispute what I just read is not what you read just two minutes ago?

Lauren Matthias [02:46:18] Yes, that's fine.

Guest [02:46:20] So the question I have with that is, if what you're saying is that, well, you wanted to get the story right in terms of the beliefs of the LDS faith, Why are you sending that to a prosecuting attorney? Who's prosecuting Chad Daybell?

Megan Connor [02:46:56] Stunned silence.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:01] Are you finished?

Guest [02:47:02] I am finished. I'm waiting for an answer.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:04] I felt comfortable talking to Rob to let him to know what I was doing. I just.

Megan Connor [02:47:10] I just felt comfortable sharing that. Just to let him know what I was up to.

Guest [02:47:14] So you were sharing with Rob Wood, the prosecuting attorney, that it's your intent to protect the LDS church with your testimony, Right?

Lauren Matthias [02:47:23] I guess you could say that.

Megan Connor [02:47:26] That wasn't the whole point of the

Guest [02:47:28] interview, but I. I understand that.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:30] Yeah.

Guest [02:47:31] The point of this text was that, right?

Lauren Matthias [02:47:34] I guess so.

Guest [02:47:35] Right. And the 340 other texts between May 6th of 2020 and November 4th of 2020, were those just to say hi?

Lauren Matthias [02:47:46] No.

Guest [02:47:47] Okay. So in other words, what was happening here is that there was at least some sort of a relationship built between you and this prosecutor about how and when and where you were going to testify about things in this case, is that right?

Megan Connor [02:48:00] Objection, your honor.

Lauren Matthias [02:48:01] Misstates the testimony.

John Dehlin [02:48:03] Sustain.

Guest [02:48:05] The point of all this communication between you and Mr. Wood, the prosecuting attorney, in this case, was to establish how you planned on testifying in this case and what you were going to say.

Lauren Matthias [02:48:19] It wasn't the established reason why I communicated with him.

Guest [02:48:25] And it was just a coincidence then that you happen to mention your church and how you're going to protect your church to the prosecutor who was going to be calling you and examining you as a witness in this case? That's just a coincidence, right?

Lauren Matthias [02:48:39] Objection, your honor.

Megan Connor [02:48:40] Argumentative.

John Dehlin [02:48:41] Sustain. All right, Megan,

Rob Wood on Melanie Gibb Text

Megan Connor [02:48:48] I. I'm. I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

Lauren Matthias [02:48:53] And I was interested to hear yours. This is the moment. Just, you know, I was in court. Well, I guess. I guess I wasn't, was I? Not this. This is the moment I texted. I was sitting on the couch because, yeah, I was sick yesterday. This is yesterday, right? The. All the days Blur now. And that was my little face in the thumbnail. And I think I texted Gerardo and John. Or was it you, Megan? I can't remember, you know, all the girl group text we have just like, dude, this is, this is big. We have every conspiracy theory that ever has been about this case just combined into this one explosive moment in my, in my opinion, where the prosecutor on the, the case that is lds, Rob Wood is getting accused by the defense of, of corroborating with a witness. They're getting together with a witness, one of the best witnesses. Most important, I wouldn't call it the most important witness on the case, Melanie Gibb. And to try to protect the church. I was just like, this is, this was a really, really big moment. You know, that that was the argument that, that John Pryor was making and definitely what he was laying out. And I think that what he had said earlier was, as Megan points out, that this was maybe cause for impeachment of the, of the prosecutor, Rob Wood. We don't have context of the text. We do know that Keith Morrison did interview Melanie Gibb and she, she did that interview and clearly she felt that Keith Morrison would be kind to the church. I can't say that that's never something that I haven't been asked as I interview people, like, am I going to be non biased and respectful? I'm sure you're asked that too. So we don't know the context, but this was, this was a jaw dropping moment for John Pryor to drop this in this case.

Megan Connor [02:50:41] Yeah, it's definitely fits in with that conspiracy theory narrative that, you know, if, if witnesses are changing their testimony or are altering it or, or are avoiding saying things because they don't want the church to look bad, then you know that that looks bad for the prosecution and it looks bad, you know, from the point of view that, you know, this, there's, there's grounds for appeal. Right? There is what is what he's sowing those seeds for. I think what, what we'll find though is that if they, if they actually do bring those texts into evidence, they're going to find that it was Rob Wood discussing with Melanie Gibb, who is a witness for the prosecution. And this was not the Keith Morrison interview. It was about her first interview with Nate Eaton. And that's why she said, I think he's done a good job so far. I think she trusts Nate Eaton to, to interview her and she was checking with Rob Wood to see if it was okay if she did an interview. I think that's all that was.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:45] I actually think it was specifically about Keith Morrison, though. Was it? I think, yeah, because it was the same. It was the same interview. And that was Dateline had been covering the case from the very beginning.

Megan Connor [02:51:55] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:55] And she felt that Keith Morrison had been fair. She trusted Nate completely because he's Mormon.

Megan Connor [02:52:02] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:52:02] But they had to talk about Keith Morrison because. And she said that he thought that he. He had been fair to the church so far. Nate's Mormon said he's a no brainer, but I think that she was excited to go with Keith because that was. That was also an interview done at the same time because they partnered together to do that interview. So.

Megan Connor [02:52:24] Yeah. And I also think, you know, 360 texts over the course of eight or nine months is not that many, especially when you consider that half of them are being sent and half of them are being received. You know, so it's like Rob Wood might have sent her 150 or 160 texts over. Over the course of eight months. And she's a pretty key witness for the prosecution, so that doesn't seem all that out of ordinary to me. Am I wrong about that?

Lauren Matthias [02:52:50] No, yeah, I, I agree. I think, you know. Yeah, no, I agree because it is. It is hard to know the full context.

Megan Connor [02:52:57] Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:52:57] Melanie. Melanie Gibb is very, very religious. Clearly, you know, she bought this crap. And if I'm gonna just lay it out there, and it wouldn't surprise me necessarily, if she did text this to the prosecution, that this is a concern of hers, like, whatever interview she chooses to do, she wants to make sure that they're going to paint the church in a good light because that's her religious goal. I mean, would you agree that, like, it doesn't surprise me that Melanie Gibb is thinking in those terms because of just simply who she is. She frames her entire life within a small little box of religion.

Megan Connor [02:53:33] Is that.

Lauren Matthias [02:53:34] That's fair to say, you know, but what is saying is a question. You know, how. How we got there. The context is a question. Yeah, yeah.

Megan Connor [02:53:42] And I was just gonna say I think Melanie Gibb is for Melanie Gibb. I think she knows way more than she's willing to testify to. And I think that she has played this entire thing to protect herself from being implicated in, in the, in the crimes, because she was right there. She knew everything. She was in the trusted circle. I think that there's no way that she didn't know some of the things that Lori and Alex were up to. And I think you're right. About her being devoutly religious. And. And it would be a major concern for her to. To not say things that would be disparaging to the church. So she's probably feeling really proud of herself right now that, you know, in this huge public forum that she got to be seen as her biggest concern was defending the church, not telling the truth. Not. Not telling the truth, not saving the children, not impeaching the man who.

Melanie Gibb on the Kurt McConaughey Case

Lauren Matthias [02:54:32] The church and her.

Megan Connor [02:54:34] Yeah. Protecting the church and protecting herself. The end.

Lauren Matthias [02:54:37] If I can be a little bit immature for a minute, when we learned today, or were told again today that her zombie name was Phoebe, I started giggling to myself because it sounds like Phoebe. And now she's already known as Melanie Fib. And now she's Fibby Fibs. So, yes.

Megan Connor [02:54:54] Yeah, there you go.

Lauren Matthias [02:54:55] If I'm gonna pull a trump and call people nicknames. But I completely agree that she knows more than she knows, and she's in it for herself and protecting her religion. And I think she's made that very clear in all of her police interviews. So I'm not necessarily surprised, like you say, Megan, that she took the. You know, that she's riding with the prosecutor. She also has this tunnel vision where she just assumes everybody thinks the exact same way she thinks, because I've watched all of her police interviews. That's how she functions. So to give Rob Wood some space and some possibility, I could see Melanie Gibb simply writing that, just thinking that that's Rob's concern, too. But I. I would really like to know what Rob's texts were. I wonder if we'll ever find out.

Megan Connor [02:55:40] Yeah, it would be really, really interesting if, like, 349 of them were from Melanie. Just trying to. Just trying to fangirl with Rob Wood. Oh, I'm important to the case. You know, that kind of thing.

Lauren Matthias [02:55:51] Yeah. John's here nodding like, I don't know what the. The heck you guys are talking about. But no, let's get back to Mormonism. He goes, that's my.

John Dehlin [02:56:00] No, not at all. I'm just sitting at the feet of two brilliant women. I. I will say, you know, when you. When I listen to Ruby, Frankie's sort of apology that she gave at her sentency hearing, I got the sense that she was doing her best to protect and defend the Mormon Church. That was just my impression. And I do not doubt for a second that if a Mormon is in jail or if a Mormon is going to be taking the witness stand, that the church and it's going to be a public hearing or A public trial. I guarantee t the Kurt McCon attorneys and or church PR make themselves available to those people so that they get coached on what they might say or even if they're not coached, that a good something that's very orthodox Mormon is to, whenever you speak publicly, to do your best to depend, protect and defend and build up the church. And frankly, we make temple covenants as Mormons when we go to the temple to never speak ill of the Lord's anointed and to consecrate our lives to the building up and the strengthening of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So that's part of what it means to be a Mormon is to do everything you can to never make the church look bad and to do everything you can to be a missionary, every member a missionary, and to build up the good name of the church to protect and defend the good name of the church. Am I wrong?

Lauren Matthias [02:57:47] No, I think you nailed it. And I think you just called out Melanie Gibb because just, you know, the history, John, and I know that, you know, you haven't been following this every which way since 2020. And Megan and I are always talking, you know, all about all these little, you know, minute details. But Melanie Gibb, when she first came on the scene, before we had any evidence dumps or FOIA requests and we're reading the evidence ourselves in our hands, Melanie Gibb came on the scene with this, you know, sort of bombshell interview she did with Dateline and East Idaho News and Clear the Air, and it was very informative and it did paint her in a very decent picture. I do think that was her goal because she is a very, very, very important witness. And then as time goes on and the evidence comes out and the police interviews come out and you learn that she's like, in the townhouse when JJ loses his life and she's hanging out with Chad and Lori and knows that JJ's a zombie and all this stuff is coming out, people's minds are blown and you're like, this girl isn't that innocent? My point being, just to corroborate what you said, John, is yes, I think this interview for the prosecution's key witness was very important. To paint her in a good light and likely the church, that would be her goal. And the church wanted nothing to do with this, you know, so. So I agree with what you're saying that this was quite. It was. It was a PR kind of a interview. And then the truth came out and the true crime community was there for for it.

John Dehlin [02:59:24] I love it. All right, well, it's time to kind of wrap up. I'll just say a couple quick things. Just quickly going back to this discussion of, like, insurance fraud, basically, I do want to note something that's very Mormon, is that Utah, by many reports, FBI, CIA, people who study business fraud, consistently, Utah is ranked as the fraud capital of the United States per capita. Correct me if, if, if I'm wrong, Lauren, or if you.

Utah is ranked as the fraud capital of the United States

Lauren Matthias [03:00:00] I believe you. I'm listening.

John Dehlin [03:00:02] I've definitely, I've definitely heard that. And, you know, and, and, and I think some of that comes from some of the MLMs on, let's just say the illegal or unethical MLMs or MLM culture that sometimes informs Utah. That's not to say all MLMs are bad. I have friends who do MLMs, so I don't want to disparage them unfairly. I just think there's also just a lot of fraud here. So I think that's something that is very Mormon, is just this idea of fraud and the practice of fraud. Okay, so we've got a ton of really fun comments that I won't have time to share, but I do want to give each of you Lauren and Megan. Lauren, why don't you just take a second and tell us just any other reflections you have about how the, how the case is going so far, what you feel about it and what you perceive and what direction you see it heading in. And then Lauren or. Sorry, and then Megan, I want to hear emotionally as the, you know, as the cousin to. What was that?

Cheryl and Megan on the Case

Lauren Matthias [03:01:14] I want to hear this, too. Go ahead.

Megan Connor [03:01:15] I'm like. Yeah, sorry.

John Dehlin [03:01:16] Talking out loud as the cousin of Lori and as someone who's a family member and who's, you know, family members have passed. Passed on, have died because of these murders, how you feel. So Lauren will have you go first, and then Megan will have you follow.

Jon Meyers on the Mormon Church Case

Lauren Matthias [03:01:32] Okay, well, first off, before I jump to the, the trial, to your fraud thing, I don't have the facts like you have on that, but I will say that if we're going to talk about systems, one thing I see with Mormonism, and it's actually one of the favorite parts of the faith that I grew up with, that I love, but it's a problem, I think, and I'll explain is Mormons are taught that everybody is our brothers and sisters, that we're here to help one another, that we are here to lift one another no matter what, and to forgive everyone, that everybody's on this journey, and we must forgive and we are all brothers and sisters. And while that's a beautiful idea, I do think it creates for oftentimes a gullible community sometimes or people that don't stand up for things when they should. You know, the emperor wears no clothes, sort of mentality, or just trusting. And so I, I just want to share that as somebody that grew up and understands the beauty of that and now someone that covers true crime and has life experience in my tool belt, I, I do think that's problematic in highly religious communities. And I want to point that out too. And I think that played a part in this crime and that will help me segue into what I'm seeing in court. So these are people that, you know, just naively followed and believed and trusted when they should have put their critical thinking caps on. And I don't know where those were. They're hanging in their portal closets somewhere. How is it going in. In trial? It's been nerve wracking. The first few days were rough, if I'm going to be honest. I. I was getting really nervous. Prior did a great job on his opening statements. Slut shaming Lori and claiming that Chad has nothing to do with these belief systems. And I didn't feel like the prosecution was that on. I feel like as the evidence comes out, you know, that's, that's the beauty of evidence, right? That that evidence starts to come out, those receipts and you start seeing that. I don't know if there is any way that Chad Dell is going to get out of this. No matter what the defense plays, no matter what, you know, the defense hands. But I don't know. You know, it takes one person with some reasonable doubt and this jury to say, you know what? I'm not so sure. I think it's Lori's fault. So it is definitely nerve wracking for those of us that have followed this case for nearly five years to think that justice might not be served to three innocent people who were brutally murdered in Idaho and then buried in Chad Daybell's own yard. Children being burned and mummified and, and just. Let's just hope for me, I just hope that justice is served. But I feel confident in the evidence that we are seeing. A couple other things I want to point out too, because the Firm Expo and these conferences, these preparing to people conferences and Firm expos have come up before. And I know that when we have brought up the Firm Expo, John and Megan, in previous episodes we have done. I know that Rod Meldrum, the founder of the Firm Expo wrote me, I've attended a Firm Expo and he wanted to absolutely separate himself from, you know, Chad. He didn't trust Chad. And I believe Rod like I, I believe that, I'm not discounting what he's sharing there, but the Firm Expo has absolutely made its way into this trial and as something that all of these people go to, I'm not saying anybody is guilty by association, but what I do think is a lot of these beliefs and a lot of these ideas can infiltrate into these communities and that have these like minded beliefs. And for example, one of the things that was said about the Firm Expo was John, John Pryor asked, so, so what, what is a Firm Expo? What did you learn there? And, and they went and attended a Firm exp Expo the day JJ was killed. And she said, well you just learn about science. And I want you guys to know that I, you know, the science that you learn at the Firm Expo. I went to a, to one class where they taught us that dinosaurs lived among humans and that the reason why they died actually is because they didn't, you know, essentially get on Noah's Ark. And I, I don't even want to mock anyone that believes that, but it's not science. It's not science. And then the people that did the preparing of people, which is now LDS media have made their way into this and they're also were friends with Rod and working with him then with all of these speakers and they talked, they talked about how they believed in this dark and light scale and were calling spouses dark and they were predicting that wives were going to die. Chad is saying with confidence that yes, I knew that Tammy was going to die. It's almost like it's a part of his defense. Like it's, you know, that a critically, you know, a critical thinking human being wouldn't see that that is evidence that you were plotting her death, that he, you know, that he just had a vision she was going to die. So that should be a good defense. I just hope that we learn from this. This for any Mormon watching and I say Mormon on purpose. This isn't members of the LDS faith. I'm talking anyone that's Mormon. Whether you like I always say whether you are X or anti or Jack or active or tba, whatever, I don't even know the terms now if Mormonism has affected your life, I, I think we need to be taking a really hard look at this case because this, this affected, this affected a lot of people and we don't even know all of the surviving victims and, and that are there and you know, that are around that so many people have been affected and so much could have been done. I interviewed Larry Woodcock, JJ's grandfather, yesterday. We were having dinner and we jumped on a live and he was yelling and he was upset. They killed my seven year old grandson. And he said this circle of friends, he called him a circle of jerks. One of them could have said something, one of them could have done something. And so that's why I think this case is so important to me is this is really just. I, I think we need to understand how this happens because this isn't, this is in our. If you're Mormon, this is in your backyard. This is, this is, this is real. This is happening with people, you know, and I just, I just, I hope we see justice. I'm in there every day. We're covering the trial every day too on Hidden True crime. And if anybody wants to get invested in this case, if I can just pitch something really quick, one episode, the hidden true crime is done. If anybody wants to learn about this case and they need a crash course, that's exactly what we have on our channel. It's called the Chad Dabel crash course and that lays out all the religious aspects and elements of this case. And I hope that people just start paying attention. This is a very important case for Mormonism, for critical thinking, for cults, for so many reasons.

CAD DAYBELL TRIAL

John Dehlin [03:08:37] Love it. Amen. Yes. Thank you, Lauren. Please check out hidden true crime YouTube channel. Subscribe to it. Support them. Dr. John, shout out to him. He's amazing. And we want you guys to just keep, keep growing. I love the number 144, 000 but let's make it 288, 000. And then beyond.

Lauren Matthias [03:08:59] Well, let's see. Ruby, Frankie, Ruby, Frankie. Got to 2 mil, right?

John Dehlin [03:09:02] So at least, let's at least double that.

Lauren Matthias [03:09:05] There you go.

Megan Connor [03:09:05] There you go.

Guest [03:09:06] Yeah.

Megan on the Lori Marple Case

John Dehlin [03:09:06] Megan, bring us home. What are some final thoughts and words you have? And then I'll, I'll, I'll share a couple final things. Megan.

Megan Connor [03:09:14] Sure. Yeah. This case has been, it's, it's been a really long, difficult journey as a family member, starting with, as I said at the beginning of the episode, starting with a Facebook post finding out that Charles had been killed. And because of the healthy boundaries that I have around myself and my, my kids and my space, there were a lot of family members that I was not in touch with. And so it was really difficult throughout this process to find out about the deaths of family members on the news from strangers rather than from family members and who have not been able to really process and, and mourn because this, this whole thing is, it extended out and it's going to continue to go on with Lori's trial in Arizona. And just the. The grief that, that I constantly feel, maybe not constantly, but the grief that comes up for me a lot is that this part of the family especially, I can only learn the truth about them by reading FOIA documents because of all of the secrecy and the shame and the hiding and the lying and the manipulating that has gone on for. For lifetimes. And that's the main thing that I want people to understand and take away about this case, is that we all know somebody like Lori. We all know somebody who manipulates people to get what they want. We all know somebody who tells lies to gain advantage. We all know somebody who puts on one face in public and, and has a different side in private, especially if you get on their bad side or do something they don't like. And I just want people to be more aware of those behaviors. And then secondly, to. To hold those people accountable by calling them out, by saying, no, that's not true. No, you can't say that. No, don't act like that. And, and again, I'm with Larry. I was right there with him last night wanting to yell and scream because if one person had held Lori accountable, if one person had held Alex accountable, if one person in that family was willing to tell the truth instead of COVID it up and hide it because it's so shameful, then those kids might still be alive. And it's just really important to me that people understand that liars and manipulators, of course, not all of them go on to kill people, but all of them do real damage and real harm, whether it's emotional or physical or whatever it is, you know, that kind of behavior, when it's unchecked, it just goes on and it causes so much harm. And I just hope that people take away that there are healthier ways to relate as a family, and that a lie is so much more damaging than the truth, even when the truth is really, really painful and difficult to deal with.

John Dehlin [03:12:21] Beautiful, heartfelt thank you, Megan. Really appreciate it. We know this is personal to you and to you, Lauren, investing so much of your life in this. So y' all are both just dear friends and super special people, and I'm so grateful and honored that you'd be willing to come on this podcast really quickly. Let me just share some quick comments. Stephanie writes Love all three of you. Thank you for covering these horrendous extreme beliefs that are allowing children and others that aren't not that aren't not being protected. Thank you. Stephanie Rennie writes the best thing about Mormon Stories podcast is how long they are. I love that they really go into it now. Lauren, are your podcasts sometimes lengthy too? I'm guessing they are.

Mormon Stories: Best Thing About The Podcast

Lauren Matthias [03:13:11] They've got to be not this long.

John Dehlin [03:13:17] How about yours? Vegan? How long are yours?

Megan Connor [03:13:19] Mine are pretty short for the most part because it's just me. But once I start having guests on there, it's going to be like this probably.

John Dehlin [03:13:27] Well, I can't recommend it. It's just what what I did and I, I started doing Mormon stories in 2005 before YouTube really existed. That's how long I've been doing this. I just would start talking to people and wake up and there'd be five hours. Not wake up, but look at the clock, five hours going by and I just never stopped because my viewers and listeners won't let me stop. They tell me they, they tune in because of the depth. So you get what you get with Mormon stories. Hopefully you get some good views and a little bit of revenue from this. Both of you. A couple more comments. Mrs. Lonely Hearts writes, I was taught in seminary. If I felt scared babysitting, it was evil spirits and I needed to raise my arm to the square. And that looks like Olympus High School 1990, which is in Holiday, which is close to me. So that's one vote for demonic casting. Gingy Probs writes, I grew up Southern Baptist and I'm familiar with all these things. I'm forever grateful that Mormons think SBS are kooky. Oh, Southern Baptist and Southern Baptists think Mormons are a cult. If their powers combined, it would be bad. From Gingy Probs, thank you for sharing. Let's see, this one was starred I think John oh no, I'm not going to read that one. She's saying I'm not a bad guy. So thank you for that. I can't read that one. Jill writes, thank you for even having this discussion. And then she says she's been listening and finds me to be fair that I didn't start that. That was automatically start a couple other super chats. Destone writes, it is healthy to cross examine your belief system. We agree. Destin also writes, thank you Lauren, John and Megan, we need your voice. I agree. Lisa writes, my ordained Baptist minister grandpa did exorcisms. No one died. I agree with exorcism, but Murder is murder. That's a good. That's a good perspective. Ladybug. Lisa writes, powerhouse panel. Thanks for all you do. People love it, by the way. My listeners and viewers love it when I collaborate with Lauren, Megan, and of course, Mindy. Curse her for not being here.

Lauren Matthias [03:15:45] We miss you, Mindy.

Megan Connor [03:15:47] We need a binder.

John Dehlin [03:15:49] Where are binders? We need binders. Walkie talkie writes, I listen to you at night to sleep because I love your voice. Great. I won't be hurt by that. SS writes, I use Mormon stories to fall asleep. There's a trend. Lara writes, is the voice of quiet power. This is referring to baby Chad's voice.

Lauren Matthias [03:16:13] Yeah, Chad's voice.

John Dehlin [03:16:15] Speak quietly. So others have to be even more quiet to listen to your wisdom. I'm sure that applies to Warren Jeffs as well. Forever Wander03 writes, FYI, Prior has a major prior that makes his defensive Chad quote, laurie was just too sexual. It's not Chad's fault. Very ironic. I don't what. What is being so.

Lauren Matthias [03:16:40] Prior has a prior offense. So he was charged battery for. Yeah, it was a woman that came for an internship or an interview and an interview, and she claimed. I think believe she claimed rape and something that wasn't consensual. He claimed consensual, and he actually claimed that she needed some money, so. And that they agreed to it.

Mormon Stories Super Chats

John Dehlin [03:17:07] All right, well, I. I didn't mean to spread something that wasn't true, but that was a comment.

Lauren Matthias [03:17:16] That's accurate.

John Dehlin [03:17:17] Yeah. Okay. Mr. Midwife writes, I wish the church, the Mormon church, would denounce all of these side groups. That's a great point.

Megan Connor [03:17:26] 100.

John Dehlin [03:17:27] These are all super chats, by the way, so thanks to everyone for their donations. Your super chats support all of us as creators, and we couldn't do it without your donations or your super chats. Mrs. Lonely Hearts writes, if Shouty John is wrong, I don't want to be right. I only shared that because it was a super chat. Lisa writes, I'm a never Mormon, but Mormon Stories has helped me heal from my religious trauma. Mrs. Lonely Hearts also writes, best collab. And then Lisa writes, thank you, John Megan, Lauren Maven, for your work.

Lauren Matthias [03:18:02] Thank you, Maven.

John Dehlin [03:18:03] Yeah. And Maven's been moderating the live chats, and of course, Julia does the time codes and show notes. Gerardo produced this episode. He created the thumbnail and he organized the slides, and it was his idea, and Gerardo scheduled it, so huge thanks to Gerardo, along with my board. Any thanks you want to give Lauren

Lauren Matthias [03:18:25] well, maven to maven. Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:18:28] Oh, and I was thinking, Dr. John, I'm sure you want to give him a shout out.

Lauren Matthias [03:18:31] Oh, yeah. Love you, babe. Love you. Thanks for. Yeah, he is single parenting while I'm gone.

Megan Connor [03:18:36] I.

Lauren Matthias [03:18:36] This is a sacrifice for us, but I love him. Yeah. So thanks. Thanks, Dr. Babe.

John Dehlin [03:18:42] All right, Megan.

Megan Connor [03:18:44] Yeah. I want to say thank you to all of you guys. Dr. John too, Lauren as well. This coverage, your coverage of this case has helped me to heal and to process. So this has been really important to me.

Guest [03:18:57] Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [03:18:58] Thank you.

Mormon Stories: The Midlife Revolution

John Dehlin [03:18:59] All right, well, thanks, y'. All. And please check out Hidden True Crime podcast. Subscribe to it, like it. Like this episode, share it, comment, and Support Lauren and Dr. John. Support Megan's new podcast called the Midlife

Megan Connor [03:19:14] revolution and the YouTube channel called @3rd underscore verse. 3rd verse, verse.

John Dehlin [03:19:22] And. And then please support Mormon Stories Podcast. Subscribe to this episode like it. And if you want to donate to Mormon Stories Podcast to make sure that this content continues, you can go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button, become a monthly donor, and we'll keep producing this content. All right, well, Lauren, you're going to keep attending every hour of every day of the hearing as you can. So. And you're doing like noon, midday live streams, but also people can watch the live stream from your channel, right?

Hidden True Crime: The Daybell Trial

Megan Connor [03:19:56] Correct.

Lauren Matthias [03:19:56] We're live streaming the trial on our channel. And if it means anything to anyone, because we, we, you know, we all agree at Hidden True Crime that sometimes you need a bit of dark humor just to get yourself through because it's hard, you know, and so we have emojis over there for our trial, watching where we remember the victims, but also where we can giggle about some things like portals and Zombies and the 144. So we're having fun over in chat while watching something really kind of traumatic.

John Dehlin [03:20:27] The chat's amazing. It's super fun. So check it.

Lauren Matthias [03:20:29] Yeah.

Megan Connor [03:20:29] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [03:20:30] So. So come join us over there. Yeah, we're streaming it every day. Megan's over there. Third verse is over there. I'm usually in court. I was actually not feeling too the last two days, so I watched on the couch. But if I'm not in court, I'm with. With the chat. And we're just gonna see this through. Tammy, Daybell's aunt is there every day. A big support to. To, you know, her. And just this has been so hard on so many people. And it's. I. I do believe that the support matters. There is going to be Someone just reminded me I want to share. There's going to be a memorial service for the children, Megan and I. Megan is helping to plan this too, and is participating in it in Idaho falls on the 27th of April, and it is open to the public. Megan, what time is that? The Colonial Theater in Idaho Falls. What time does it start on the 27th, do you know?

Megan Connor [03:21:24] Visitation is from 11 to 1 and the service will be from 1 to 2.

Guest [03:21:29] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:21:29] And Megan might be singing, is that right?

Megan Connor [03:21:33] I will be. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [03:21:34] Megan will be singing. I wasn't going to share that if you didn't want to.

Megan Connor [03:21:38] Yes. Bombshell.

John Dehlin [03:21:40] So if you want to meet the Megan, will you be there? You won't be there, Lauren, is that right?

Lauren Matthias [03:21:44] Or I will be there. Yeah, I'm gonna go.

John Dehlin [03:21:48] Go to that.

Lauren Matthias [03:21:50] Yeah, it's. It's a bit of a drive from Boise, but absolutely. Yeah.

Megan Connor [03:21:53] It is going to be live streamed as well.

Lauren Matthias [03:21:56] Yeah, it'll be live streamed too. Right. So people can watch it

John Dehlin [03:22:00] one more time.

Megan Connor [03:22:01] It's the 27th Saturday.

John Dehlin [03:22:04] At what time?

Megan Connor [03:22:05] At 11 to 1 is the viewing, and then from 1 to 2 is this service.

Lauren Matthias [03:22:11] And the Colonial Theater does fit a thousand people, so it is something that the public is absolutely invited to those who attend. And then it'll also be live streamed.

John Dehlin [03:22:22] And that's in Idaho Falls, right?

Lauren Matthias [03:22:24] Right, Correct.

John Dehlin [03:22:27] Not Twin Falls.

Lauren Matthias [03:22:29] Idaho Falls.

John Dehlin [03:22:30] All right, I'm gonna see if I can go.

Lauren Matthias [03:22:33] I'm not sure if I come. Please come. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:36] And I think Gerardo and Mindy and I have talked about coming to Boise and maybe doing a little appearance and coverage and hangout with you, Lauren and Megan, if you want to come. So that might be in the future.

Megan Connor [03:22:53] Mormon stories. Road trip.

Guest [03:22:55] Road trip.

Lauren Matthias [03:22:56] All right. I'm. I'm looking forward to that. That. I hope that that comes to fruition.

Hiding in the Truth: The Joseph Smith Case

John Dehlin [03:23:01] All right. All right, well, thanks, everyone for joining us today. Thanks again. Megan and Lauren. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We do wish that justice is served. So let's all send out vibes to make that happen. Take care and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Third Verse Hidden True Crime and Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Guest [03:23:25] Bye.