Secret Lives of Mormon Wives

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is November 25, 2025, and we're here for it. We're here for season three of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives being shown on Hulu. For those who have been living in a cave somewhere or haven't been following Mormon Stories, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is probably the hottest show on all of streamed media. Possibly, but it's. It's huge. And it's all about Mormon women who basically live in Utah. Mormon or ex Mormon women who live in Utah. We've covered it a few times on the show in the past. Season three's just released. And what might be different about how we approach here, Mormon Stories, Secret Lives versus other channels is we're Mormons or ex Mormons reacting to the show, focusing on kind of the Mormon angle or the Mormon perspective. And I'm not aware of other people really doing that, except for Haley, who actually has these people on her show. Right, Haley?

Haley Rawl [00:01:07] Some of them, yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] Have you guys covered Secret Lives, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [00:01:13] Well, it's been tough because Tana refuses to watch it, but I did just film a video of my friend Aurora at the weekend.

John Dehlin [00:01:19] All right, And Aurora, should I know who that is?

Samantha Shelley [00:01:23] She's called Aurora McCausland, just like a Utah influencer.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] Oh, okay. Okay. Well, that's Samantha from Zelp on the Shelf. And of course, we have Haley Rawl from Girls Camp. Do you call it a podcast or YouTube channel or.

Haley Rawl [00:01:37] What do you call it? Girls Camp Podcast.

John Dehlin [00:01:39] Okay.

Haley Rawl [00:01:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] And we have Alyssa. Oh, I don't want to use the wrong name. Alyssa Whitbeck. We have Alyssa Woodback back.

Haley Rawl [00:01:47] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:01:48] On Mormon Stories. Welcome back.

Haley Rawl [00:01:51] Thank.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:01:51] Thank you. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] Yeah. All right, so we only covered. We only did one episode on season two. Should I feel ashamed or embarrassed about that?

Brooklyn Alden on Mormon Stories

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:02:03] Only, like, a little. I think

John Dehlin [00:02:07] that was too short. I don't have anything quick to say in response. I should also say I'm so excited for the first time, I think, to have. Joining us from an undisclosed satellite Mormon Stories office somewhere in the UK we have Brooklyn Alden, who is our video editor. But she's so into Mormon pop culture, I forced Brooklyn to join us. Hey, Brooklyn Alden.

Brooklyn Alden [00:02:40] Hello. You're absolutely correct. I love reality TV and ex Mormonism, so I'm happy to join this one.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] Well, is this Brooklyn? I have a horrible memory sometimes. So have you ever appeared on any Mormon Stories episode ever?

Brooklyn Alden [00:02:55] Not once.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:02:55] Ever.

Brooklyn Alden [00:02:56] Not once, no. But Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is what will Take me out and bring me out into the public for. So. Yeah, no, first time.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] And you've been working for Mormon stories, what, five years? Six years.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:08] How many years?

Brooklyn Alden [00:03:09] About five years. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] How have you escaped coming on the show in five years?

Brooklyn Alden [00:03:14] You know, with. With great complication. No, I like to be behind the computer after the filming has taken place. But I really enjoy all of your Secret Lives and Mormon Wives episodes. So happy to be here. As like the Greek chorus to this one, you know, just.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] That's a literature reference. Somebody help me out. What is. You're British.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:37] These two seem like they would know that.

Brooklyn Alden [00:03:40] Sorry, obscure reference already. But that's like, you know, in the. In the group theater when you have the audience on the stage to help the real audience know how to react. So I'm just reacting to you guys.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] You're already given these super sophisticated takes, Brooklyn. All right, well, we want to. We want to also welcome our live audience. It's super fun to have you. We hope to incorporate comments or questions. The best way to show your comment or question is through super chat. That helps support us financially and it also helps helps your comments stand out amongst all the other comments really quickly. Mormon Stories exists because of the generous donations of our viewers and listeners. If you're a donor, thank you. We couldn't do without you. If you're not a donor and you value this content, you can go to mormonstories.org donate, become a monthly donor, and we'll keep providing this content. All right, so our plan is to have two episodes on season three. I'm a little worried. We're not. There's too much.

Comments and Questions

How To Write a Three-Hour Drama

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:04:49] There's a lot.

John Dehlin [00:04:50] Right.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:04:50] We almost need an episode per episode, but maybe we can control ourselves a little.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] Wait, a three or four hour episode per episode?

Guest [00:04:59] Exactly.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:05:01] I think we did that for season one.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:03] Yeah, we went hard on season one. We left no stone unturned.

Haley Rawl [00:05:07] Absolutely.

Secret Lives of Mormon Wives: Brooklyn Alden

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Well, anyway, today is part one of an undetermined number of episodes on season three of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Really quickly, Brooklyn, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself or do you want to remain mysterious and anonymous?

Brooklyn Alden [00:05:24] I can share a little about myself. I don't mind. Yeah. Not too private. Yeah. So my name is Brooklyn Alden. I grew up primarily in Park City, Utah. So right in the middle of Mormonism. You know, I grew up, as I would call it, very orthodox Mormon. And I left the church. My whole family left the church when I was 18 years old. So this year is actually my 10th year out of the church.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] Whoa.

Brooklyn Alden [00:05:47] And, yeah, I've worked for John for the last five years, and I will say that I think the church looks very different in the 10 years since I've been out. So it's interesting to watch this stuff and see what it's like now.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] Yeah. All right, well, that's super fun. It's great to have you, Alyssa, remind us a little bit about you.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:06:06] I'm Alyssa. I like reality tv. I teach university English. I'm a writer. I have an essay that was just. Just published in Exponent that kind of talks about motherhood. So that ties in here just a little bit. And I'm just happy to. Happy to chat.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] And you're a double mom, is that right?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:06:24] I am, yeah. I just had my second.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] And have you been on since having your second?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:06:28] No, this is my inaugural. I had him, like, a week after we see this. That's partially why we didn't finish season two. Because.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Because you had a baby?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:06:36] Because I had a baby. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] Well, congrats. Great to have you back.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:06:40] Thanks.

Haley Rawl [00:06:40] Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:06:41] Really quickly, Haley, you want to remind us who you are? Of course.

Haley Rawl [00:06:45] So, as John said, I have a podcast called Girls Camp. Podcast. A podcast, a YouTube channel. Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is really my bread and butter because I love talking about Mormonism. I love talking about the overlap between Mormonism and influencer culture, especially. And I'm also a former Mormon wife and mother myself. Like Alyssa.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] Wait, you're not a former wife, and you're not a former mother. Right.

Haley Rawl [00:07:10] Former Mormon wife and Mormon mother.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] Okay.

Haley Rawl [00:07:14] Still. Still a wife and mother.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] Okay.

Haley Rawl [00:07:15] No longer Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:07:16] Well, good clarification. Yeah. In ex Mormon Internet culture, you never know. So true.

Haley Rawl [00:07:21] Very true.

John Dehlin [00:07:22] Had to make that clarification. Sammy, tell us about you. Remind us.

Samantha Shelley [00:07:28] Yeah. I'm one half of Zelf on the Shelf. I am ex Mormon. I also used to be a Mormon wife, and I'm not a mother, but I love reality tv.

John Dehlin [00:07:37] Well, you're wiser than many moms I know. How's that?

Samantha Shelley [00:07:41] It's really nice you to say, John,

John Dehlin [00:07:44] great to have you back.

Samantha Shelley [00:07:45] Yeah, great to be back.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] All right, well, now that we've done introductions, Alyssa, we're going to have you kind of be the guide for today. I'm going to run the camera, and y' all can call on me when you wish. How does that sound?

Haley Rawl [00:08:01] Perfect.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:08:02] Hey, sounds good. So let's just start in. You know, we're doing episodes one through five right now. As much as we can. Let's just start in the juiciest. Part of the first half of the season and Jesse's affair. So a lot of what we see just at the beginning of Jesse's relationship is Layla confronting Jesse in the car. I think it was at an influencer event or something like that, because Marciano had told her that he had had sex with Jesse. So Layla confronts Jesse to see if that's actually true. She immediately confesses to having an affair. She says she kissed him twice. She says that they had an emotional affair for a couple of weeks, but she is adamant that they didn't have sex. And this becomes a really big storyline. So what do you want to say just about this, like, the first episode, our initial thoughts on the affair, on Jesse's take on everything?

Secret Lies of Mormon Wives: Jesse's Affair

Haley Rawl [00:08:57] Yeah, I mean, I think this, as we see this all unfold, we learn a lot about patriarchy. We learn a lot about gender dynamics within Mormon culture, within Mormon marriages. I think at the very beginning, the first thing that comes to mind in this, like, initial, when we're finding out about the affair is that Jesse is. She is honest about it. She comes out and says, yes, there was an affair. It was exactly this. The sex part was not true. She seems willing to talk about it, take ownership and Jordan's word for using, yeah, her husband Jordan's words. And, yeah, she seems like she. I guess I think it's just important to mention that she really owns up to it and seems like she's working on taking accountability and moving forward from that point.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] Any other panelist responses to that initial disclosure?

Samantha Shelley [00:09:59] Like, how did we feel?

John Dehlin [00:10:02] Well, I. So, you know, obviously in the early promos for Secret Lies of Mormon Wives, the word soaking would come up. And, you know, I think of soaking as just a placeholder for this idea of, like, Mormon sex versus Mormon, not sex. And so she's claiming she didn't have sex, but she had an emotional affair. But they kissed. He say. Didn't he say there was some stains on his shorts? And so, like, for me, that introduced this whole idea of were they trying to do that very Mormon Provo, byu Rexburg kind of thing where they were trying to, like, have as much enjoyment as they could without technically violating some sort of boundary. Am I making this up, or is that there?

Samantha Shelley [00:10:53] Was it in the first episode where we. Where he said, oh, I just thought we had sex because there was a come stain in my underwear? Sorry, they come stain on Mormon Stories podcast. Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:11:10] go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:11] Well, was it that episode?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:11:12] It was a second, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:14] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] What are you gonna say something, Brooklyn?

Brooklyn Alden [00:11:18] Oh, I just love the come soon reference on Mormon stories. That's definitely a first. I've seen a lot of episodes. Yeah. There's like, a Monica Lensky situation going on. Now we're gonna have to figure out,

Mormon Women on The Ashley Affair

Haley Rawl [00:11:30] I do think a through line that we see with this affair that we saw in the past two seasons of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is there seems like there's this really intense to have, like, very specific details of things that have happened if it is of a sexual nature. And I feel like that comes out in this affair as well, because Marciano claimed there was sex, Jesse claims there wasn't sex. And so you have all these people getting into, like, the nitty gritty sexual details, which is kind of, you know, hearkens back to the initial swinging scandal when there was so much talk about what exactly happened physically. And to me, that rings very Mormon because it is similar to sitting down in a bishop's office and having to say with exact specificity what happened. And I think that, yeah, I mean, obviously on reality tv, I think they kind of play into the salacious details. But I also think there's something Mormon about that, of needing to know exactly what happened.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:34] Doesn't it seem like there's more curiosity about the specifics of that than, like, okay, what was the emotional environment you were in to make you make those decisions? Like, that's what seems more interesting to me.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:12:47] Yeah, absolutely.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:48] There's a lot of focus on just, like, the specifics of the sexual activity.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:12:52] Yeah. And I think kind of like what you were saying, John, about how we're, like, relating this back to the linguistic arguments that we tend to do in Mormonism on what is sex, what isn't? How far can you go before you have to talk to your bishop? Can we go right up to that line? And then when you're talking with the bishop, you have to be really specific about what you did. And, you know, depending upon your answers, that will determine your role in the repentance process. It just feels very checklist item. And it seems like that is what a lot of the women and the men in this season are more comfortable talking about, which is interesting. They're more comfortable reading these, you know, salacious texts out loud, confessing really openly with each other. But they're much more vague and much more protective of sharing, like, the emotional problems and the environment of that. It seems like that's the line that they're not willing to cross. But everything else is open on the table because that seems like that's something that everyone deserves to know. And that, and I guess we'll get to this in a minute, too. But just like this need for not only Jesse to confess, but for the other women to find out, like, the capital T truth, and that it's their job as a friend to be able to determine the capital T truth in order to then proceed on what the next steps are. And so, yeah, this also does feel just very reminiscent of, like, how we react in Mormonism to sexual disclosures and how we almost have to, like, open our handbook and say, okay, if, you know, if you did have sex, I'll act this way. If you didn't have sex, I'll act this way.

Sam on Jesse's Emotional Affair

John Dehlin [00:14:20] Can I ask, does it matter if they had. Let's just. It sounds like they're trying to avoid intercourse, but they're still having sexual or relationship of some level. All of us have been in committed relationships. Does it matter? Is it. Is it emotional affairs less significant than an actual sexual affair?

Guest [00:14:39] Are.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] Is emotional fair worse than an actual sexual affair? Should it matter to. Is it, Jordan, whether or not they did or didn't. Like, is that even, like. I think that's a. It might not be a Mormon question, but I think it's an important thing. I'd love to hear people's perspective on that.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:57] I feel like every couple kind of has their own ideas about what would constitute an emotional affair. But also, I'm like, if you kissed, it kind of isn't an emotional affair. You know, I suppose it. They kissed and then it went on to be just emotional. But I, you know, couples have all kinds of lines when it comes to what's an emotional affair? Because, I mean, really, an emotional affair is like, you're seeking inappropriate closeness with someone outside your relationship. But we all need emotional closeness. So it makes sense that that would be something you would do if you're being emotionally abused, as Jesse said, she has been for years. That seems like an inevitable outcome, to be honest. Like seeking emotional closeness in other ways when you can find it.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] And this is a nitpick, Samantha. Isn't it totally possible to have an emotional affair without kissing at all?

Samantha Shelley [00:15:47] Yeah, yeah. The kissing, to me makes it. I mean, more of a affair affair.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:54] You know.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Oh, I see. I see.

Haley Rawl [00:15:56] I think that emotional affair is interesting here, too, because what we do know is that they kissed and then that they sexted, essentially, which is being referred to as an emotional affair. We don't get so much insight onto, like, how emotionally close they did become. But I do think the terminology is interesting here. As we were saying with the semantics of everything. Because when you're throwing these terms around, especially when you're talking about a context where, you know, Jesse, she got married very young in the temple, she left her first marriage and very quickly ended up marrying Jordan. So I think you also have these dynamics of, yes, these are women in their 20s, early 30s, but some of the behaviors. And I don't say this. I say this as someone who is part of. Who also is in this group of people. But I feel like a lot of it felt very almost high school to me. Like, the kinds of questions it was bringing up, even the terminology that was being used, it felt less like an adult affair and more like kind of a situation that might unfold in high school or in early college years. And I think that that makes sense. That's just indicative of the life path that most of these people have been on where they didn't have exploration. So, to me, I also see this in a lot of ways as maybe people wanting to explore in ways that they didn't before. But, you know, now they're married and have children.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:17:26] Yeah, I mean, I think as Mormons, unfortunately, we're all just so sexually stunted. And I think it comes out not just in the behaviors, but just in the conversations. The way that sex is talked about, the way that relationships are talked about, the fact that these people are navigating serious trauma, serious relationships, all weather, caring for multiple children. And some of them are 25 years old. Like, there's just so many factors at play here that I think also make it more difficult for them to be able to navigate in healthy, emotionally developed ways. But I do think also that part of what you were saying, John, about, like, does it matter? I think I agree with what you're saying, Sam. Like, it depends upon each person's relationship, whether, you know, their. Their definition of both a physical or an emotional affair. But I do think once you bring the camera that a woman not only had an affair, but had a sexual affair, had sex, that raises the stakes a lot. Just as far as, like, the reception publicly about, you know, what the response is going to be about a woman who had sex. And kind of the scarlet letter that's going to go on her that already was going to, you know, she was going to have for stepping outside of her marriage in any capacity. And then you add sex. And I think that just the weight of that for women in particular is really heavy. And to me, I think that was at least my assumption was that was what a lot of the panic was coming from For Jesse was, you know, not only is. I don't know if Jordan believes me or if he doesn't believe me, but now everybody is going to see me in a very dark light, even darker than they probably already were. And I imagine that's terrifying.

Brooklyn Alden [00:18:53] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [00:18:54] She also says. I mean, I think it's in the very first episode. She says something like, I kind of found it a little funny, but. But she said, you know, in the Mormon culture specifically, an affair is really bad. Which I think. I mean, I guess the reason I found it a bit silly is because it's like, I think generally speaking, that's something that, you know, societally there's a lot of shame attached to and things like that. However, I do think that's a salient point, which is because of how taboo sex is, especially for women. There is this added layer of shame. So I think even for Jesse's sake, she did seem, and I understandably so, she wanted it to be known we did not have sex. We only kissed. Because I think that that will affect inevitably how she's judged, especially by Mormons or Mormon adjacent people, if I can.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] I don't. I don't mean to nitpick. I wrote this down. She actually wrote infidelity. That she said infidelity is definitely frowned upon. Why are you laughing?

Haley Rawl [00:20:04] Of course it is. Right?

"It's Not The Best Thing to Do in Mormonism"

John Dehlin [00:20:05] Not just frowned upon. Like, you get excommunicated. You can get this fellowship. Like, it's a sitting extra murder. Right?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:20:12] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:13] So. So what? How do we make sense of her just going, oh, yeah, it's not the best thing to do in Mormonism?

Haley Rawl [00:20:21] My take on a lot of those lines are like, the producers like, okay, how can we get the Mormon angle? What does the Mormon Church think about cheating? And she's like, well, yeah, it's definitely frowned upon. Yeah, that's. Thank you for that exact line. Because I did chuckle a little because I was like, yeah, to. To say the very least.

Samantha Shelley [00:20:38] But I better interview booth for like, 10 hours, just asking question after question.

John Dehlin [00:20:43] Of course.

Samantha Shelley [00:20:43] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [00:20:44] 100%.

John on Oprah's Comments About Her Affair

John Dehlin [00:20:45] Brooklyn, let's get you a comment.

Brooklyn Alden [00:20:47] I have to say I totally agree with those last comments. And I almost felt like her emphasizing over and over it was an emotional affair, if you want to call it that. Emotional affair is. Came across to me as her trying to, like, downplay the affair when, like, John was saying earlier to some people in some relationships, potentially even my own marriage, like, I feel like an emotional affair would almost even be more hurtful to me in certain scenarios, you know, so it just Felt like a lot of downplaying and trying to draw a clear line of like, oh, it didn't go this far. It wasn't sex all this way, you know. And I also thought it was interesting, John, the comparison you're making to, you know, the culture and Mormonism about where do we draw the line of what is sex and what is not? And I definitely see an element of that in a lot of her responses. And kind of what I'm imagining her mental process was through the whole interaction with Marciano. I feel like there was a lot of that going on really quickly.

Spouse Affairs or Fall In Love?

John Dehlin [00:21:41] Roll call. And only for those who want to answer. You have two choices. Spouse has sex with another person or spouse falls in love with another person. Do either of you have one you would prefer?

Haley Rawl [00:21:53] I've debated this heavily amongst my friend group and I usually am the odd man out because I feel like I would be hurt more by a sexual affair, but I feel like most. I'm usually alone in that. So I'm curious what.

John Dehlin [00:22:06] And it could be partner, not spouse.

Haley Rawl [00:22:08] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:22:08] To be clear, I think I'd be hurt more by an emotional affair. I think, I think we're the opposite.

Haley Rawl [00:22:14] Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that tends to be usually. Which is understandable, I think. Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:22:20] Spouse, if you're listening, don't take that as permission neither, please.

Haley Rawl [00:22:24] But.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:27] Well, Jesse didn't fall in love with someone else. Just, you know, it wasn't those two options for her.

John Dehlin [00:22:33] No, no, no, I know. I was just for the sake of the conversation.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:37] Even though theoretically I think love is abundant and non exclusive, I do think it'd be more, much more challenging if my partner fell in love with someone else than her. Text to someone else.

Haley Rawl [00:22:49] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:49] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] All right, Brooklyn, do you want to answer? You don't have to.

Brooklyn Alden [00:22:52] I think that was a beautiful way to put it, Samantha. And I think I agree with that statement. I probably don't want either be happening. I personally would be more hurt by him falling in love with someone else.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] Yeah, I think I'm fall in love.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:06] Especially if it's more than me. You know, I want to be number one. That's kind of the main.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] All right. Okay. Sorry if I derailed, but this is. Thank you for your patience with me.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:23:20] That was great. Okay, so. So they. They discussed this. Things are bad. Jesse lets us know that she told Jordan immediately. Well, by told, he looked through her phone. He found out things weren't going well.

Jordan Says He Feels Emasculated After His Wife's Aff

John Dehlin [00:23:33] Is she a reliable narrator?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:23:35] I think so.

Haley Rawl [00:23:36] I think she might be like honest.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:23:38] She seems like an Overly rely, like a very earnest narrator. At least where she. I don't think she leaves out any details.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:45] It's not hard to believe that he went through her phone.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:23:47] Yeah. But regardless, Jordan is understandably upset. So he learned a new word, emasculated.

Haley Rawl [00:23:58] He's.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:23:59] He's excited to use this frequently, which I'm sure we'll just dissect in a moment. So he turns to his good buddy Dakota for some emotional support to confide in. So we have a clip kind of of this conversation, a little bit of it, and what their take is on the whole thing.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] All right, we'll roll the video.

Guest [00:24:17] Super emasculating 100%. It would. It would do the same to me. Jordan growing up Mormon, too. The men are the providers. That's what he's always seen his whole life. Now it's completely opposite. There's nothing wrong with that. It's great. But I just think for a man that adds another layer of feeling. Not enough.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:24:37] There's nothing wrong with it.

Haley Rawl [00:24:38] It's great, actually.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:24:39] It's totally fine to be rich.

Brooklyn Alden [00:24:41] Don't get me wrong.

John Dehlin [00:24:42] No, there's so much laughing and head shaking and cr. Articulate it. Voice it.

Samantha Shelley [00:24:48] The fact that his wife becoming the primary breadwinner is kind of even a factor in the conversation for him, I just think is telling.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] Why?

Samantha Shelley [00:24:57] Because it's like your family came into an enormous amount of wealth that you get to benefit from. But for some reason that's. I mean, obviously it's showing that these Mormon men are. Do feel emasculated by not being the ones to earn the most money.

John Dehlin [00:25:13] What do you think he means by emasculating?

Samantha Shelley [00:25:14] That is emasculating. I think being bothered by it is more emasculating than, you know.

Haley Rawl [00:25:20] Absolutely. Yeah. I think I'm glad Dakota called it out so explicitly because Jordan, from the very first clip of him talking about this affair, even to Jesse, he kept saying, I feel so emasculated. I feel so emasculated. And even if he didn't say it as many times as he did, that seems to me an odd word, an odd initial reaction or hill to die on when it comes to an affair. And I think Dakota pointed it out, which is there is already an insecurity there. There's already an insecurity around masculinity that this affair is then exacerbating. And I. I wonder if the, you know, the roles were reversed, if potentially his language would have been different because if he was in a position of financial control in his family the way that Jesse is, then, you know, his response might have been, oh, well, I do this, this, and this for you, and I do this, this, and this for the family. And this is how I'm thanked. It's, oh, this is so emasculating to me. And I. I think that just goes to show that he likely was feeling that way already.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:28] And it kind of shows how fragile the, like ideas about masculinity are. That. That how manly you are is affected by how much money you make or if you're. I mean, if your wife cheats on you or not. I feel like masculinity can be something more intrinsic and healthy than that. That can't be shaken.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:26:45] Shaken so easily. And he seemed more concerned. And granted, you know, I'm sure there's a million caveats that they were working through this already, but he seemed to be particularly concerned about everybody knowing about the affair. And he mentions that quite a few times, that that was one of the things that he was really paranoid about. And a lot of it, I think, does come down to perception that he's going to be seen as less of a man, that manliness is somehow defined by your wife only wanting to have sex with you or being dependent upon you financially, and that both of those things are challenging his own manliness. And he mentions at one point he said, I don't want to be seen as less of a man because I chose to stay around when they're talking about working things together, which is really interesting, that, like, to brush her off would somehow be a way to be considered more manly. And. And he talks a little bit about, like, how he's worried about what his son in particular thinks about this. Like, it does seem like there's so much combined here about. About sex and manliness and financial prowess that really come together. And she's challenging all of those things. And that seems to be a lot of what his confidence is. Sense of self is built upon.

Samantha Shelley [00:27:59] And even though I understand him being hurt, I feel like if he really loved her deeply, you'd be concerned about this affair coming to light because she is going to get destroyed by, you know, the Internet, the world. Like, I feel like there should be, like, some level of concern for her. Like, if you're on a reality TV show and your wife has an affair, generally the audience is going to be sympathetic to you, but she's the woman in the situation, you know, with, like, the Scarlet Letter. Yeah, I've never used that before, anyway. Yeah, he just doesn't seem concerned about her at all, which again, I understand that her is not.

Jesse on 'The Real Life'

Haley Rawl [00:28:39] Yeah, well, I think to that point as well, talking so much about how emasculated he feels, feels like such an external concern of how people are going to perceive him, perceive his relationship, perceive the way his partner and his relationship sees him. And yes, we did see some tears, we did see him grappling a bit with this, but it felt like most of his grappling was what is the world going to think of me and think of us as opposed to, I love this woman and I'm devastated because I trusted her. He's not even really talking in that way. He's more so talking about, like, what is the perception and the feedback going to be. And I think that's also really telling because it shows where his priorities are as opposed to, I love this person and I'm really devastated about what this might mean for a relationship.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] Are we saying that he cares more about what people think than what's actually going on in his life and in his relationship? Is that what we're saying?

Haley Rawl [00:29:40] It seems so. I think it's also worth mentioning, of course, they are on a TV show, so there's a lot of talk of that, of like, okay, now this is brought up on tv, so now we're going to have to deal with this publicly, which absolutely is valid. That's a different thing than dealing with privately. But even still, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think we hear him at all talking about like personal, his personal feelings about it beyond on that level of perception.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:06] Effy, it's obvious that they didn't have this sort of beautiful close bond that was fractured by this event. It's like it was maybe more of an external, externally focused relationship to begin with before it happened. Which does feel pretty like patriarchal marriage culture.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] I mean, this may be a hot take, but like I almost see this entire franchise in some ways is a metaphor for Mormon emphasis on appearance. I mean, because so much of this series is about how they're looking. And I know that in my Mormon experience, so many of the most high profile families in any given Mormon ward, you find out they look perfect on Sunday. Perfect clothes, perfect hair, perfect behavior, even the bishop and the bishop's family. But then you go home and it's a wreck and, and so not a lot of integrity kind of relationship and, or familial or even interpersonal or personal integrity between who you really are when you're not in the public Mormon gaze and how you present when you show up at award or in this case, on international television.

Haley Rawl [00:31:28] Absolutely, yeah. I think that's the whole tension of the show, and I think that's a huge reason why it's such a success, is because when people think of Mormon wives, they think of these women on TikTok who look stunning, who are freshly postpartum but dancing with their friends, and they all have their partners, and it appears one way. And then I think the impetus for the show ultimately was when Taylor, Frankie Paul said, actually, we've been swinging, and that is crazy, to an outsider who sees Mormonism as this very shiny, curated thing. And I think the show has just continued to kind of explore the inside workings of something that to an outside perspective, even within the community, is oftentimes a very shiny, curated facade.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:32:18] And I think part of what makes our community so messy is kind of these two tensions that we've been talking about. This hyper awareness of appearance, having everything seeming curated and perfect and clean and nice and pretty. And also we have this, like, hyper compulsion to confess and that everybody needs to know everything. And it seems like for so much of this show, we're balancing both of those tensions. Like, first, Jesse and Jordan were trying to keep everything under wraps. They were trying to not even let their close friends know that there were any problems. They were trying to be very private about it. But then once it opened, the floodgates opened and Jesse was willing to almost, like, word vomit everything and was hoping to somehow receive, like, redemption or forgiveness from everybody based on that. And so I think in all of these relationships, it seems like there's really no, like, balance of understanding, like, appropriate levels of sharing in different conversations, or how we can kind of, like, navigate these relationships in a more balanced friendship way. It's either I'm going to pretend like everything's perfectly fine, or I'm going to drive three hours to investigate and take a lie detector test.

Haley Rawl [00:33:25] There's no in between.

Brooklyn Alden [00:33:26] Exactly.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:33:26] No nuance here.

Brooklyn Alden [00:33:28] Yeah, I couldn't agree more with what you guys are all saying. And I think Jesse even directly addressed this and said how she's been masking it for years, and they've been acting like it's perfect. But she mentioned multiple times how there hasn't been a day that they have gone without arguments, and yet they just want to keep, like, putting on a smile and continuing to act like everything's perfect and beautiful. And I just totally agree. It's such a Mormon thing that happens. And I think it's interesting that Jesse has actually been one of the Few to be open about the fact that she, I think, doesn't believe anymore and, you know, has separated herself from the church, doesn't consider herself a member anymore. And yet so much of that lingers in your behavior. And I just find that interesting.

Jesse and her Ex-Mormon Husband

Haley Rawl [00:34:14] I was just about to say that I think it's important we call out they are ex Mormon, Jesse and her husband Jordan. And that had me thinking and reflecting a lot because, yeah, I've spoken to Jesse, and she is definitely ex Mormon. And yet still the impact of the upbringing, as well as being so entrenched in, you know, the. They're still friends with active Mormons. They're still living in Provo, Utah. And so it is interesting to think about, I guess, kind of the. The lasting power of the culture and of the messaging, because even being ex Mormon, we're seeing a lot of these same Mormon dynamics coming out.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:56] And so the scaffolding of her life, because she entered into this Mormon marriage with kids when she was Mormon, it's like, it's still Mormon. It's still Mormon patriarchy. So she's still kind of having to live in that system, even though she's left it. It's still the structure of her whole life.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:35:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:13] I do want to just mention briefly about Jordan. You know, I. I'm. There are very few things I'm finding that are uniquely Mormon. You know what I mean? I think I like to say the Mormon experience is the human experience in many ways. But it might be worth calling out that in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, there's this document that we've talked about in Mormon stories called the Family Proclamation. And in there it says, a husband or a father's role is to preside and provide. And so I guess. I guess we can say, where do Jordan's feelings come from? He probably doesn't choose his feelings to feel emasculated. I don't know if, you know, I don't know to what extent he really even means that word per se, but what I can take from that for sure is that he feels crappy. And he feels crappy because if he's presiding, what does that mean? If his wife's stepping out and then if she's the one that's providing in a Mormon context, he could easily just have these feelings like, I'm failing as a Mormon man, based on the family proclamation and on cultural expectations for what men are supposed to be. He comes by that honestly, right?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:36:34] Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's partially why, in some ways, the Entire conversation that this series has about breaking the patriarchy feels, like, regressive. You know, I would imagine people outside of Utah when they're talking about how they're going to break the patriarchy, but many of them are clearly still in patriarchal marriages. And the main definition they have for feminism or for breaking the patriarchy is by being the primary providers. And I think part of that comes back to what you're saying about the family proclamation, that it literally says men should be the ones to provide and preside and protect. And so they're kind of bumping up against that. But I think for an outsider, I would imagine it's like, okay, well, women working. This is. We. We've established this decade ago. You know, this is not like a new way to kind of like, we're,

Haley Rawl [00:37:24] you know, it's not radical.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:37:26] It's exactly.

Brooklyn Alden [00:37:27] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:37:28] But the way that they're framing it is like, wow, we are like, we're the breadwinners, and we're going to. That's the main way that we're kind of like, going to be fighting this patriarchal system. And that is also the main way. The main language that they have for feeling, like, emasculated, like you were saying, that seems like that element, which I think for a lot of people, like, well, yeah, you know, the women. A woman can work. That's totally fine. That's not weird. Still seems to be such a sticking point. And I don't think it's inherently because these people are immature or these people are silly reality TV stars, but that they have this proclamation framed on their wall and they read it all the time, and it's still, you know, in practice in 2025.

Haley Rawl [00:38:13] Yeah. I also am remembering a point in the season a bit later, as this is all unfolding, where Jesse says that Jordan said she couldn't do anything right around the house when it came to laundry and taking care of the kids. Like, she rattles off some, like, traditional homemaking tasks. And that just adds, I mean, so much to discuss there. But you look at Jordan and you think in, you know, his wife is providing a wonderful income for his family, and he has the opportunity to step in in so many other ways to help support the family dynamic and find purpose and find meaning. And it seems like he doesn't. It seems like Jesse is still the one doing all of those things. And, yeah, I guess just back to the point about a patriarchal setup and him feeling emasculated is maybe particularly ironic because it feels like he's kind of floating in this meaninglessness because he doesn't have work, when in reality there's so many ways he could find meaning in his life beyond working for a paycheck that I think would probably help him form a greater sense of self and identity and even masculinity. And, you know, who's to say how much he is or isn't doing that? But I do think we had a pretty good clue when Jesse said, like, he's critiquing the way I take care of the home. It doesn't sound like he's really helping out there either.

Samantha Shelley [00:39:37] That's a really good point. That he has the ability to see, search for meaning now and he doesn't have to really worry about it making a paycheck. Like how many men are frustrated in corporate jobs or like under the patriarchy because they're having to, you know, put how much they're earning first? And he now has this opportunity to in some ways do whatever he wants, but it just doesn't seem to be. He's not. Maybe his brain's not set up to, like, think about it like that.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] The wiring runs deep, right?

Haley Rawl [00:40:03] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:40:05] Yeah. All right.

Mormon Response To Jesse's Affair

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:40:07] Okay, so. So let's transition a little bit to Macy and Michaela. We, we have just a quick clip. Just I think, I don't know how long we want to talk about it for, but Jesse confides in Macy and Michaela and, and she's very open. Like we've established this is what happened. I kissed him. They are surprised. They're trying to decide whether or not they believe her. They want to believe her, but they're also skeptical, which, which is interesting. And then they make a joke because Jesse said that when they kissed, they'd been drinking. I think she said she had five espresso martinis. You know, I understand a good espresso martini. And. Yeah, so then this next, this next clip is kind of there, like light hearted Mormon response to this.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] All right, we'll roll a clip.

Guest [00:40:54] Like I said, I keep replaying Jesse telling us she had an affair over and over my head. That's why I'm flying the church. I don't like him drink because things like these happen. We have alcohol. She shouldn't love the church. I'm just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] A big old side. Now, just to be clear, like, I don't think Taylor's much of a Mormon these days and I don't think Layla is much of a Mormon these days. Like, first of all, are any of them very much Mormon these days? But also Is Jesse the only exploring.

Haley Rawl [00:41:31] Macy has a temple recommend. The woman who.

Brooklyn Alden [00:41:35] The one who just said that. Yeah.

Haley Rawl [00:41:36] Okay, so they talk about that in the season. She has a full temple recommend. I think besides Macy, she's like for sure the most Mormon on the spectrum. I mean, I still think a lot of them identify as Mormon, but I think Macy is. Is likely the only temple recommend holding.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:41:53] Maybe Whitney.

Haley Rawl [00:41:54] Maybe Whitney.

Guest [00:41:56] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:56] It feels like they're all holding onto it to certain degrees, which we see a lot. Like a lot of people will be inactive for years, but they wouldn't declare themselves ex Mormon. Yeah, it seems like Jessie's the only one that's just like fully removing herself entirely from the label.

Haley Rawl [00:42:09] As far as not drinking in context of this clip, Macy wouldn't drink, but I feel like the rest of the caffeine would, so it is. Yeah, I mean, I think her making that comment. I also just finished Macy's book recently because she has a memoir and I will say maybe a little bit bit. In her defense, she has a. A really, I mean, I found her story really compelling, but she has a history of drinking, partying as a college student that got her in compromising situations. So, I mean, obviously we can talk about kind of where this comment is coming from, but I do think from her perspective, I can see a little bit why she's like, you know, I've had too much to drink before and found myself in situations that I. I wish I wasn't in that I probably wouldn't have been in without alcohol. So I think that's also a part of where she's coming from here.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:43:05] Well, I think part of that too is it's like the abstinence only sex ed. And then you get pregnant the first time or the first few times you have sex. I think that as Mormons, like, we don't learn how to have a healthy relationship with alcohol very well because it's all no alcohol. And then it's really common, I think, for ex Mormons to find themselves in compromising situations or active Mormons who are being, who are being sneaky. And I think, you know, of course Jesse should not have done this. And I also think, like, it's a. You have to learn how to be able to handle alcohol in appropriate ways. And I think that's something that our community doesn't do very well at. We don't know how to like, learn our limits often. And so we kind of like go back into this black and white thinking of, like, see, this is what happens when you have alcohol and we're kind of clumping any association of alcohol into the worst case scenario bucket or leaving the church into this worst case scenario bucket. We don't have like. And of course that happens. People do leave the church and they can have a terrible life, but also people can leave the church and have, you know, be healthy and happy. And I think that we just love to kind of categorize these things, even though she's saying it light heartedly. And I, and I kind of get the joke. And maybe it's kind of like a haha. Us Mormons love to say this, but the base of that is that is a comment that Mormons do say in

Haley Rawl [00:44:20] earnest all the time. Absolutely. And I mean, another rebuttal is that plenty of Mormons have affairs sober. You know, that's not, that's not like the determining factor, obviously. But it's very easy when something like alcohol is involved to be like, oh, see, there you go. Good on us because we don't drink alcohol and are therefore sparing ourselves this kind of behavior when that's also just not true.

Brooklyn Alden [00:44:45] I think she's all, it's also showing, you know, she's almost like so eager to say that. And I was like disappointed, yet not surprised that she came out with the most Mormon response ever to a situation like this. Of it's exactly what I would have said when I was Mormon of, oh, it's because you left the churches and this when Jesse the whole time is talking about how this, the status of, or, you know, the state her marriage is in is what caused this. And at no point I feel like did she blame it on drinking her alcohol or felt like, oh, if I hadn't had so many drinks, I would have acted differently. Like, I feel like so many times she emphasized this is due to the place that me and my husband were at. And it was just funny to me when I was putting clips together, I had to include that one because it's just the most classic Mormon response from the most Mormon person on the cast. And you know, the responses never change. I feel like from Mormons it's always

John Dehlin [00:45:38] this, it is the ex Mormon trope, right, that you leave the church, drink and then have an affair. But, you know, that's true.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:45:47] I didn't think about that.

John Dehlin [00:45:48] But you know, and I can just think in my immediate family, for the 25 years we were all super devout, there was hidden drinking, there was hidden smoking tobacco, there was hidden affairs. And that's just in my immediate nuclear family. And over half, let's just say that. So I am. I do get a little bit grouchy about that trope or stereotype getting perpetuated. But also we can also have a sense of humor about it really quickly. Fit angel sent us a super chat and I think I got objectified. She wrote, john, the beard looks great.

Haley Rawl [00:46:27] How does it feel?

John Dehlin [00:46:28] How does it feel to have the man be the one that gets the first comment about his appearance? Is that good? Should I be insulted or should I be?

"You Got Paid!"

Haley Rawl [00:46:36] I think we're breaking the patriarchy with that one. Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [00:46:39] You got paid. So

John Dehlin [00:46:42] anyway, thanks for the support, Fit Angel. We appreciate it. All right, where do we go next?

Jesse and Jordan's Affair

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:46:50] Alrighty. So moving along. Oh, okay. So things are not going well with Jesse and Jordan. We're still staying just kind of on this same topic of Jesse for a minute, just kind of moving through the episode. So in episode two, they decide they're going to do a 90 day separation, kind of see where things go. Jesse and Jordan have an audible argument. And I. I do think it's interesting to think about the things that Jordan is willing to say on camera. I think that's unfortunately very telling. Jesse's mom and sisters are downstairs listening and Jordan is just. Just being really insulting. Jesse's crying. They just have an argument. And Jesse's mom seems very surprised about the affair, but is telling Jesse that she thinks that Jesse should have left the relationship years ago. And this is where we really started to understand that that this affair was not. Did not exist in a vacuum. She starts talking a lot more openly about the emotional abuse that was going on. And I will say, it seems at the beginning of the season, she seems a little bit more worried about protecting Jordan as the season continues, she starts, you know, kind of like opening that door a little bit. And it gets darker and darker as the episodes progress, as we see more of Jordan's behavior on camera and as we hear more stories. So this is really where we're diving in, I guess. One thing that we'll say for this and just for the rest of this episode. There's a lot of dark themes in this series, so take caution if you're listening or watching. Yeah. So I just wanted to hear what you guys are thinking just about that initial. Once we kind of start hearing about, you know, how this relationship is actually looking on the inside.

Jordan's Emotional Abuse

Haley Rawl [00:48:27] Yeah, it's one of those moments where a little shocking, but not very surprising, I would say. And I think, I mean, certainly I'm biased toward Jesse probably for a lot of reasons, but I do think as soon as the context unfolded, I very quickly was like, oh, it's completely. We see exactly why she did what she did. Seems like it was a cry for help. It seems like it was looking for validation that she wasn't getting at home, maybe even potentially subconsciously sabotaging her marriage because of the state that her marriage was in. It felt very reminiscent hearing Jordan speak to her on camera to how Zack spoke to Jen in previous seasons. That was kind of like the toxic relationship of previous seasons. I do think it was interesting because Jesse has really put on. Speaking of that facade she really has put on kind of. They seem really happy up until this season. And the way that they interact online together. Jordan is very involved. He's involved with her, he's involved with the men. He's very involved on the show. And so to realize, oh, this has been happening all along, since they first met, is just really devastating, I think, as well, because we see Jesse as this character who is. Before she even came on the show, before she was even doing mom. Talking about she is a business owner of, like, a gigantic company. She seems to have it all together. And so to see her being treated, to have her husband be so demeaning toward her is. Let me be so clear, that should never happen. But especially when we've kind of come to know Jesse for being this, like, boss babe that she is, it's particularly jarring because it's like, like, what legs does this guy even have to stand on? And, yeah, it's kind of one of those things of, like, oh, there's another one. And we kind of are seeing this pattern repeated that we saw in earlier seasons with a different couple.

Samantha Shelley [00:50:36] It also kind of shows how sometimes, just like, slapping a label on something that has happened, like, affair can be, like, flattening because it's like, okay, what is an affair? It's like you've. You've crossed these boundaries that you have sort of agreed upon within your relationship. But it's like emotional abuse is a constant boundary cross. So when you look at it like that, it's like, I don't know. I feel like in Mormonism, obviously, the way this would get litigated is, like, the affair is always the worst thing, but emotional abuse is like someone crossing your boundaries for years, presumably, and, like, deliberately sort of wearing you down so that you become reliant on them. It's no wonder that she was, like, seeking external, like, worth building in someone else when that's, like, what she's sort of been primed for and isn't getting it from her husband.

Haley Rawl [00:51:32] I don't know if this is in that initial conversation. I believe it is, because I feel like he brings this up a lot. But Jordan also uses their children against her multiple times where he says things like, now our son will know that you're a cheater, and what will our children think of you and think of us? And I think that that not only speaks to the level of emotional abuse and manipulation, because that's just a horrible thing to leverage against a mother. I think it also speaks to what we've been talking about with this dynamic where they do have children, and because of the Mormonism, because of the pattern of getting married young and having children young. And now Jordan is almost using that as leverage to further his emotional abuse, to further the guilt and the shame, which, yeah, I mean, if. If we do need to compare the two, I think absolutely Jordan's wrongs far, far outweigh Jesse's affair.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:52:33] And I think part of what makes it so difficult is that when we use the word affair, like you were saying, Sam, like, that feels very tangible. And I think emotional abuse, verbal abuse, some of these things can be a little bit more ambiguous, or it might be different within different relationships, or it might be harder to, like, pinpoint exactly what's happening or to be able to articulate exactly if that's happening in your own relationship. And so I think Jordan is obviously creating an unhealthy dynamic for years, and then he uses the affair as. As leverage to explain why, to justify the behavior that he's doing. He says a couple times, you know, you know, you're making me act this way.

Haley Rawl [00:53:09] You deserve me to act.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:53:10] You deserve for me to act this way. And Jesse makes a comment at one point saying, like, this. This is familiar. This type of fight is how things used to be. So it's very clear that this is a very, very familiar dynamic between the two of them. And Jesse says in a different podcast, separately, she talks about how, as far as using their children against them, that Jordan at one point, like, brought the kids in and said, okay, everybody, I'm telling you right now that, like, mom and dad are getting a divorce, like, in the middle of a fight as a way to, like, you know, make Jesse feel horrible. And I think part of that is, like, weaponizing the family, which also feels the way that it's used here, and also feels like it's stemming from this patriarchal system that, like, we're using. Oh, you're a mom. And, yes, having children, that, of course, raises the stakes. And I think that that is just the facts, you know, that, that that is a really important layer. But also I feel like that's being weaponized by the men over and over again that like, I can treat you badly, but if you choose to leave, you're breaking up the family and you're a bad mom. Now this feels like a comment that, that Zach was making, that Jordan was making, that Dakota has been making, that Taylor's family has been making, that the idea of the nuclear family being together and being perfect is more important than the mom being treated well. And that the mom being abused or the children witnessing the mother being abused is somehow going to be less harmful on the kids than a divorce or then the parents not being together. And I think Zach makes a comment too, like, like, man, like, like these women, you know, they're just, they're get, you know, they are just okay to like break up a family.

Haley Rawl [00:54:53] He says, I'm all for female empowerment. Oh yeah. But he says, ultimately, why is not everybody in this situation rooting for the family to remain together? And I think it's exactly that. I think it's, it's particularly telling that in an affair where the woman is the one who cheated, that seems to be much more top of mind. And I think that just goes to show within the patriarchal framework, while women are in charge of the well being of their children. And so regardless of that, what sacrifice? Although I completely agree, I don't think it's better for the kids to stay in a toxic or abusive relationship. But it's kind of like, well, regardless, no matter how you feel about how he's treated you, if you're a good mom, you do what's best for the kids.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:55:39] Exactly. If you love your kids, if you're not selfish.

Haley Rawl [00:55:42] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:42] Yes.

Brooklyn Alden [00:55:42] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:43] Which is wild for him to be saying while he's weaponizing the children in the little moment that just shows that the kids are not primary to you because you're not even cognizant of the impact that's going to have on them or how you're crossing like their emotional boundaries. Like that's not healthy for a child to be like receiving your reactivity like that in an argument.

Haley Rawl [00:56:03] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:56:06] As a child of divorce and as someone who's experienced lots of divorce, as probably we all have in our or, or in our own lives per se. The comment I want to make may or may not be relevant to, to Jesse and Jordan, but I want to just introduce it anyway. One of the things I hate there's Two things I hate about marriage and I love marriage. Two things I hate about marriage. Number one is it seems like, seems like it sometimes leads people to feel like they, quote, have or own the other person to the point where they don't, let's just say, try as much in the relationship as they did when they were courting. But the second thing is far more insidious, and that's that if the marriage isn't working or ends up not working out, there's so much shame and stigma around divorce that it makes both sides feel like they have to really blame the other for being the cause. Now, let me just say, yes, abuse happens. Yes, I'm sure Jordan was emotionally abusive. So I'm not in any way trying to take away from Jesse's experience or claim that there aren't sometimes one sided divorces. And I have seen two sided problematic marriages where they're just trying to destroy each other with hand grenades and bombs and allegations. And I just hate that. Why can't it just be it didn't work out. So we had some years together, maybe we had some kids, maybe we didn't. But I wish you well. Let's now go find our next journey. But I can't say that this part of the series was giving those vibes, but I wanted to just introduce that topic anyway because it bugs me.

There's Just Something I Hate About Marriage

Jesse on Why She Doesn't Want to Get Divorced

Haley Rawl [00:58:01] Well, there is a point when Jesse, because Jesse has been previously married before Jordan and as she's like really reckoning with the fact that she might end up divorcing, she, it's kind of the most emotional we see her and she says, I don't want to get divorced again. And I think that is such a unique situation to be 30 years old in a second marriage with children still so young and be like, oh my gosh, I don't want to do this all again. I thought I had already done this. And I think to your point, I mean, I don't want to psychoanalyze too much, but potentially Jesse having kissing Marciano could have even been her way of being like, now this is enough reason that I can, that we can part ways, not even needing to blame, but just having it be, be enough cut and dry of like, oh, there was cheating. Because then people can be like, why'd you divorce? Well, there was cheating because it is more cut and dry than emotional abuse.

Samantha Shelley [00:58:58] I just saw a tick tock clip of her on a podcast today saying that she thinks that it was like a deliberate self sabotage because she was wanting to get out.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] Yeah, it isn't it interesting that instead of just saying, hey, let's talk heart to heart, this isn't working. I'm not feeling good. You're not feeling good. We choose the hand grenade option and blow up our lives, the other person's lives, our kids, just, we'd rather blow it all up than have the difficult, direct one on one conversations.

Haley Rawl [00:59:34] I think a lot of couples in traditional Mormon situations that got married that young, it's like you, you really don't know each other that well. I mean, Jesse even talks about this herself. Her and Jordan met and got married very quickly while she was very fresh off of her divorce. And so a lot of times I think these marriages, they lack, I mean, sometimes even just compatibility, but beyond that, there's just not the, that level of communication is just. And I mean, that's hard anyway. Obviously I think all relationships are striving toward that. But I think speaking for myself, because I did get married at 20, I'm now 30. I mean, looking back, luckily for my husband and I, we've been able to work through it. But looking back at how much growth we've had to do, especially around communication, it's just, you're set up at a disadvantage when it comes to having those types of conversations. I think especially because marriage, the, the concept of marriage, I think also in Mormonism is not what marriage actually is. I think it's if you find the right person and you love each other initially and you believe in God and stay Mormon, then you will be happy. And yeah, it's just a lot more complicated than that. But people don't want to show that because that's not how marriage is viewed.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:00:56] Well, it's Spencer Campbell's any two people who are Mormon who love God can make it work mentality.

Brooklyn Alden [01:01:03] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:01:03] And I think part of what is also just like we keep coming up against in these relationships over and over again is really young marriages. And within Mormonism, marriages simultaneously not taken that seriously. Because we get married six months after we meet each other and it's like, oh, if you're, if you're Mormon, awesome. You're 18, awesome. You love each other for a minute, like totally fine. Have kids right away. And so simultaneously so cavalier. And it's marriage for time and all eternity. It's the most important thing in the entire world. It's extremely difficult to get a ceiling canceled once you've been sealed. And so I think, like, we're just hitting this problem over and over again of these really casual marriages. And also, I mean, I think divorce has stigmatized anyway everywhere. But then you add the Mormon element, and even though Jesse and Jordan aren't Mormon anymore, that stigma is still there. The idea of getting divorced within Mormonism, within Utah, is so scandalous. It's the worst thing that can possibly happen. And I just think that they're not really well equipped. Equipped to either handle marriage yet because they're young to handle or handle divorce because the stakes are so high.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:14] That's the thing. It's so understandable that she, especially if they don't have good communication and he's abusive, she's not going to feel able to go to him to workshop these problems. It sounds like she probably couldn't get the buy in from him. And it's just such a normal human thing that whatever we're repressing is going to come out in a more dysfunctional way. And so I'm almost like, who are we to really, like, litigate the morality of this stuff? It's just like a fact of, of human nature that if you're trying to, you know, like, conceal a part of your own inner reality, it's gonna like, fight for your attention so you will, like, you know, make wilder moves and yeah, potentially pendulum swing to try and like create some movement. Like it, it's, it's her saying that she feels like she kissed Marciano or whatever as a way to self sabotage. It's like, yes, sure, but it's also, it's like her psyche attempting to like, find wholeness in a way. Like, it's a, it's a, it's a dysfunctional way to go about it. But like, yeah, as much as it's self sabotage, it's also this like, pursuit of healing in a weird way.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] Totally. Brooklyn, let's get you in here.

Brooklyn Alden [01:03:27] Yeah. I kind of feel like another layer on top of all the things you guys are saying is that I personally think it is a thing for women to feel like they stay in something much longer than they probably should. Because we have this tendency to feel like, I can make it better, I can keep fighting for it. It's the classic, classic trope of I can fix him, it's okay. You know, we just, I think work really hard to keep fighting for something and I think end up staying in longer, far longer, past everything is past something, sorry, a healthy place in the marriage. And then I think that just creates so much build up and then they're just in such a difficult place that then something like this happens and I don't know, something along those lines of just I think a lot of this happens when women don't know when to leave.

Ex-Mormons talk about eternal marriage and stigmas

John Dehlin [01:04:24] And I would just also add an element of Mormon doctrine and theology that more and more I'm feeling like is billed or sold as the greatest feature of Mormon doctrine that's actually potentially one of the most damaging and harmful. And that's this idea of eternal ceilings, eternal marriage, eternal families. Because any of these stakes or pressures to stay or stigmas are all amplified by a billion when you add that you're breaking up an eternal marriage, you're breaking up an eternal family, you're violating your temple covenants, you're leaving the covenant path instead of just allowing people to be people. And, oh, the marriage didn't work out, or, oh, we're not happy. Oh, let's find you someone that you're happy with. It's you. You gotta stay married not just for your entire life, but for eternity, or you're violating your covenants with God. It's just too much pressure, or you'll

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:05:21] never see your children again.

John Dehlin [01:05:22] Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.

Haley Rawl [01:05:24] Possible punishment.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [01:05:27] I wonder, too, about the ex Mormon side of things with Jesse and Jordan, which she doesn't speak to explicitly. But I do feel like there's. There's almost an opposite pressure of, okay, now I've left the church, and now I can't be one of those people who leaves the church and gets divorced, who cheats and then gets divorced, because that's what people think of ex Mormons. I almost feel like sometimes there's. I've felt this type of pressure where it's like, when I left the church, someone in my family sent me an email, and they were like, you know, I've seen what this does to marriages, to families, and I've seen families fall apart, was what this person said. And that's kind of the threat of if you step away from Mormonism and these eternal covenants and ceilings, then inevitably your family will fall apart. So there also could potentially be almost the opposite pressure of, now that we're publicly outside of Mormonism, we. We maybe need to hold on even tighter just to prove people wrong, essentially.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:06:30] That's wild to receive in an email.

Haley Rawl [01:06:32] Yeah, you're telling me.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:06:34] Wow.

Haley Rawl [01:06:34] I did tell this person, to be fair. They sought me out and I said, no, thank you. So they chose an email, which ended up being easier.

Brooklyn Alden [01:06:43] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [01:06:43] But I was like, okay, thinly veiled threat. But I mean, I think it does create pressure.

Brooklyn Alden [01:06:48] Right.

Haley Rawl [01:06:49] It's like, oh, man. You know, if theoretically, down the line, my husband and I had something Happen where we decided to separate. I know for a fact people in my life would absolutely. Similar to what we were talking about with alcohol. They'd be like, oh, of course. Because they left the church. And you know, it's unfair and not true. But I still think it, it creates pressure for ex Mormons and I hate

John Dehlin [01:07:13] the idea of a man or a woman staying in an abusive marriage because of the doctrine of eternal families and eternal marriage. Right?

Haley Rawl [01:07:20] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:07:21] Yeah. All right, so let's, let's move on. Oh, okay. Now Jesse visits Natasha. She gets another cameo which is fantastic.

Natasha Helfer in The Book of Mormon

John Dehlin [01:07:32] This is our own Natasha Helfer who has been on Mormon stories a lot. She's a therapist who works down the hall here in this very facility, but also was excommunicated for teaching ethical, mental and sexual health principles. But we love Natasha. So sorry I had to show.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:07:51] No, no, you're great. Yeah. So I think these couple clips kind of show some of the big moments that Jesse has with Natasha that I think also gives us a little bit of insight into our, our boss babes internal world. A little bit.

Mormon Women Talk About Their Looks In 'The Love Letter'

John Dehlin [01:08:06] All right, let's roll the video.

Guest [01:08:08] If I had to ask you right now, what do you like about yourself? What would you tell me? I'm really giving. I would let anyone move in with me get the shirt off my back. Like I know that, like I have that quality and I like that about myself. But I also hate it because I feel like it gets. Gets me walked all over. And I've definitely had like lack of boundaries in relationships because of it. What do you like about yourself physically? Nothing. Nothing. Wow.

Haley Rawl [01:08:46] That. It was one of the saddest moments of the series to me.

John Dehlin [01:08:51] There was just an audible gas, three audible gasps.

Haley Rawl [01:08:54] I mean you just feel it. I think any woman feels it. And I think, you know, there's been a lot of talk about these, these women and a lot of them have plastic surgery and have work done and you know, there's. That's a whole conversation in and of itself. But I think that one question and answer just goes to show the amount of honestly, just like self hatred women are taught inside of Mormonism and outside of Mormonism. But as we've, you know, consistently been saying, I certainly don't think the Mormon factor is helpful nor the Utah factor as we've been discussing with appearance. And these women now being on TV where they're watching themselves and you know, so much of the gig is how they look. And I can just only imagine the toll that that takes on their self esteem.

Samantha Shelley [01:09:51] Yeah, it almost felt Especially heartbreaking to hear because she is a woman who's like, she puts a lot of time and effort and money and into the way she looks. Obviously her career is the hair extension business. Like, her life is so focused on the way she looks. And yeah, it doesn't seem to be yielding. Like, there are some women who are like, I don't like anything about the way I look, but it's not really a huge focus in their lives. Maybe, you know, they're just in a different line of work or it's just not a big deal to them. But it's hard coming from someone where, you know, it is a big deal.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:10:20] Yeah. And it also just feels like women, we can never really win as far as appearance goes. And I think that's something that cuts so deep, especially in Utah, as you've said, that is so heavily focused on. On appearance that I think it's easy, you know, to view influencers who have this. This perfect life or people who are spending a lot of money on cosmetic procedures as. As the pinnacle of beauty. And that if you have that, you know, like, traditional standard of beauty, if you meet that traditional standard of beauty, then finally you'll be happy. You'll finally have self worth. And I think it is a peek behind the curtain that for at least in her case, even though she is a very beautiful woman and has a lot of success based on how she's looking, that she still isn't feeling fulfilled by it or feeling good by it is just something that we can never. It's an unattainable goal, and it's something that's just going to be continually wiping people out. And it's just sad to see that perpetuating decade after decade after decade. And it seems like that narrative really isn't changing.

Haley Rawl [01:11:21] I think this also gives insight into the affair, particularly once we kind of see her and Marciano on screen. Marciano is very complimentary. He talks about how beautiful she is, and you can see why she would be vulnerable to that when she has such a low self esteem, particularly around her appearance.

Mormon Women Talking About Body Shambles

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:11:42] Let's move on to the next real quick.

John Dehlin [01:11:45] I'm sorry, really quickly. Can y' all help the. The male audience? Like, if I'm trying to connect myself, like, you know, there are features that I don't like about myself. Like my teeth have been crooked or they're yellow, or I have a big nose. But, like, this idea that there's nothing about my appearance that I like is something that I don't think I've as a man ever felt. Is that, like, can y' all all relate to literally this idea of nothing? And if so, for maybe whatever comfortable you're sharing. Can you talk about that is, unless it's too sensitive? I don't know.

Haley Rawl [01:12:31] No, I just had a. I mean, this is. Is not directly an answer to your question, because I feel like there are things about my appearance that I could say that I like. I do think as a woman. This is a small example, but there was a video. I'm. I talk online, and oftentimes I'm sure everyone here has had this experience, but, like, Mormon podcasters will, like, clip my audio or whatever and then respond to it or, like, use it in some type of way. And someone did that maybe a month and a half ago. And I was reading the comments, which I shouldn't do, but someone was talking about, I have these moles on my neck. And someone commented and was like, oh, I just can't. Something about me having moles on my neck. And I think that's a good example of. That's just not even something I've ever even cared about. I actually think it's cute. It's just part of me. And to have even little tiny things about how you look called out when it's, number one, completely irrelevant has nothing to do with who I am or what I'm saying. And I do think that that is so much more common for women to feel like, here I am sharing, like, thoughts and opinions and my intellect, and someone's like, oh, her moles are whatever. And I mean, that kind of thing happens all the time. Things I would never even think about about my own appearance. People will publicly comment on because they don't like what I'm saying about Mormonism. So a Mormon man will come and say, well, you are ugly, essentially. And I'm sure these women, I mean, I can't even imagine the level of that that they're receiving. I'm sure every single thing about her face that she. That she probably has loved, she's had someone online say, her nose is this, her eyes are that, her eyebrows are this, her hair color is bad. And, you know, I just can't even imagine with that amount of people pointing those things out, that it's probably been stolen from her, the things about herself that she probably used to love. And I think in huge part because of online culture.

John Dehlin [01:14:38] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:39] And I wonder if sometimes as a woman, it almost is a weird. It's. It's almost like your brain trying to protect you by being like, don't get too comfortable. Like, don't get too. Especially because she's in a situation where, you know, she's done something. Something that she feels ashamed about. It's.

Brooklyn Alden [01:14:58] I could.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:58] I feel like when you're in that really deep shame spiral, it's very easy to be like, I just shouldn't. Like she said also in that scene, she didn't even feel like she deserved to drink water. So I think it's also probably the situation probably doesn't help. Like, I would imagine there are times in life where she does, like, things about the way she looks, but she probably, in that moment, doesn't really feel like she's allowed to.

Brooklyn Alden [01:15:20] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [01:15:20] It's almost like a. A protective response in some ways, too, of, like, well, what if I say I like my hair? And then, you know, so and so doesn't. So I may as well just know I don't like anything about myself.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:15:34] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:34] You know, everyone on the Internet will destroy her. Whatever she would have said.

Haley Rawl [01:15:37] Yeah, it's true.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] I would hate to think that Mormon and or US culture makes women feel like there's nothing beautiful about them.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:46] Well, it does. I mean. Yeah.

Haley Rawl [01:15:49] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:49] You've always got to be. I mean, I think something that most women can relate to that men usually can't in the same way is just as a woman, you feel like you should always be in some way striving to improve your appearance or, like, there's always a tweak you can make or you're always kind of, like, thinking about it. Whereas with men, I mean, if you. Especially if you take, like, an attractive man who gets feedback that he's attractive from the world, he's generally not moving through the world thinking, what else should I be doing? He's just, like, enjoying that, even if he has insecure days. But as a woman, it's like, even if you're considered conventionally attractive, it's like, how can I preserve it as I age? How can I maybe go a step beyond? Like, it's just. It's never good enough, and it's just

Haley Rawl [01:16:29] not as much currency for men.

Samantha Shelley [01:16:31] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [01:16:31] I mean, I will say these men on the show get pretty picked apart for how they look like. There's all these comparisons of they look like the kid from Incredibles or whatever. And I'm not saying that's justified, nor do I think that they don't deserve to have some type of feeling about that they do. But it's just so much less their social currency, so it hurts less. Because these women, so much of their Social currency is how they look in a way that it's just simply not for the men.

John Dehlin [01:17:02] I'm super bummed, Brooklyn.

Brooklyn Alden [01:17:05] Yeah, no, it just also made me super sad to hear how, like, quickly she was prepared to say absolutely nothing. It's also something that, you know, because when I'm watching reality tv, which I love, I also kind of love to

Haley Rawl [01:17:19] read into

Brooklyn Alden [01:17:22] how being on camera is affecting how someone's acting in the moment. And I almost wondered, like, what you guys are saying about how if she said anything, someone online would have been commented, you know, if she said, oh, I like my nose and that was the one thing she really liked, someone would have gone on and said, oh, she shouldn't. And then here's what, there's the one thing that she liked broken down even more. And I just hope that, you know, if that camera wasn't there, that you have to believe there's something she'd like by herself. But yeah, it made me really sad. And I was shocked that even just as a woman who runs a hair business shouldn't do some self advertising and say, I love my hair, I think I'm amazing at hair, you know, and I do a great job. I almost feel like that was a missed advertising moment. But

Haley Rawl [01:18:04] my extensions in such and such color.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:18:07] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [01:18:09] So, yeah, it definitely made me really sad, especially because I feel like as women who always feel self conscious about something and you know, for Mormon women, it's really important how you're perceived by men because I feel like that was so much what I was taught about my value. And I feel like I would always have to have, you know, one thing in your back of my mind of like, oh, I don't like this and this and this, but I like this thing and I'm gonna hang on to that. So it was super sad to hear that she didn't have that one thing ready to go.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:18:36] Yeah, I do think that, I think that Internet culture, being an influencer, being on tv, is absolutely exacerbating all of the issues and self image issues that she'd be having, anyone would be having. But I also do think, like, it's something that a lot of women have experienced that hopefully, you know, people can find one thing. But there have definitely been seasons in my life where I can't find a single thing or think of a single thing that I like about myself physically. And there have been seasons where I've thought of something that I like. But, you know, there's always going to be something that I don't like. And I think that just kind of ebbs and flows with time and age, but I think that is like, unfortunately a pretty universal experience.

John Has A Droopy Eyelid

Haley Rawl [01:19:16] Okay, next clip.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] Yeah, move on.

Haley Rawl [01:19:21] Yeah, thanks, John. Sorry, you get the beard compliment and I'm just kidding.

John Dehlin [01:19:26] I actually had a friend, listener offer to give me eye surgery. I have a droopy eyelid here. And he's like, john, let me pay to fix your droopy eyelids.

Haley Rawl [01:19:35] So you're like, wait a second.

John Dehlin [01:19:38] I'm like, is it that bad? Anyway, all right, next clip. What's this one's?

Jesse's Confession About His Affidelity

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:19:45] Also Natasha.

John Dehlin [01:19:46] Okay.

Haley Rawl [01:19:47] In the same therapy, how are you

Guest [01:19:48] feeling about the infidelity? Like, are you in a space of self grace, Self shame? The first few days were really hard for me because I felt like. I felt like I wasn't even deserving to drink water. Water if I was thirsty. Like, I really struggled. Like the first two days just being like, I don't deserve anything. Like, I made this huge mistake and like, I just don't deserve anything.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:20:09] I mean, Sam mentioned that a moment ago, but I, I do just feel like we, we just see that shame so much in Jesse's experience, and it's clear that, like, she really, really regrets what happened and has no, no self grace at all. And it's just hard to. Hard to watch.

Haley Rawl [01:20:26] I think that's part of why, I mean, with her affair happening. Yes. Again, we can say a million times, like, not, you know, infidelity is not good. Frowned upon as, as Jesse would say. And also, I mean, she's heaped enough guilt and shame on herself, and I think she understands, she's thought about it, she's working to amend it. And I also think that's just a good example of, you know, these mistakes. Taylor actually makes a comment a bit later where she says something about how essentially Mormonism exacerbates that shame and they want you to feel shame. And I think that especially with sex stuff, that shame is just. I mean, we know how shameful she. She already feels about it in a way that, that I think a man absolutely wouldn't because of conditioning. So I think that also makes her sympathetic in this way of like, no one, no one needs to pile on what she's already experiencing herself. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:35] Yeah. So I just asked Chat GPT what percentage of people. Are involved in some sort of marital infidelity during their lifetime? And I don't have my glasses on to see what the result is, but I've heard it's a lot. Isn't like a third or something?

How Many People Have Been Involved in Infidelity?

Haley Rawl [01:21:57] What does Chat Say, I'm curious now. Let's get those glasses on.

John Dehlin [01:22:02] It says it's difficult, but it says about 20 of men and 13 of women.

Haley Rawl [01:22:08] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:22:09] In at least. Or 20 to 25% of marriages. So, I mean, that's 30. A third. A third of all people, if I'm reading this right, a third of all people in marriages. No. Are. Are unfaithful. Oh, I think. And, like, so never would I want to, like, try to downplay the importance of fidelity. I think we're all in agreement that fidelity is good, very good, and very important. And if the stat is so high, does that leave room for. Just like we talked about, destigmatizing divorce? Should infidelity be somewhat destigmatized, or is that too much of a hot take kind of question?

Samantha Shelley [01:23:05] Well, it. We definitely need to bring more curiosity to it. Like, I think it's just like with so many social problems where we think if we just slap a strong enough shame label on it, that will make the problem go away. But infidelity is one of the worst things you can do kind of universally across the board in our society, regardless of religion. Not religion. So clearly the shame thing isn't working. And to me, I feel like. I mean, Jesse and Jordan are a good example of a couple that entered into these theoretically eternally binding co commitments, then realized that, like, the entire sort of psychological foundation of their lives was not true, and left the church. Of course, that's going to make them vulnerable to infidelity. Like, so many people enter into marriages, you know, these, like, lifelong commitments under certain false premises, like, I would say a lot. And I think there's marriages where that have managed to not have infidelity. It's like, a lot of the time, even those marriages, they went in under some kind of false pretense, but they were able to sort of work with it and evolve together over the years in a way that, you know, that didn't happen. I also think there probably are people that don't cheat when they maybe do, like, lust in their hearts because. Because of the shame. So it's clearly something we need to understand better. I feel like, like, Esther Perel has done a lot of really amazing work around infidelity. And, yeah, I think shame is generally, it just shuts down curiosity. So we do need to unshame it or destigmatize it.

Haley Rawl [01:24:36] I also think in the context of committed relationships and particularly marriages, it. I think that communication, when there is. How do I want to word this? I feel like, to me, when things escalate to an affair, it's because there's a lack of communication and safety. And what I would wish for marriages even is that within marriages, people could feel more open to even say something like, hey, I have a co worker and I am feeling this type of way. And, you know, and they could talk about it and kind of. I, to me, the. The thing about infidelity that is so harmful is the betrayal. And I've seen that in my own life, people who have been cheated on and just like the. The kind of lifelong effects of that lack of that. That breaking of trust and. But at the same time, I, I do, I think, have sympathy for especially people in Mormon frameworks who end up cheating, because I. I see the psychological factors behind that of missing self exploration, sexual exploration, romantic exploration. And I think what I would wish is that it was even destigmatized within a relationship where things like that could be more openly discussed, if that makes sense. And I think taking it out of hiding, then, you know, decisions can be made without keeping things secret.

Brooklyn Alden [01:26:08] It.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:09] Have you guys seen the movie Baby Go?

Haley Rawl [01:26:11] Yes. With John. With Nicole Kidman. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:15] No, I didn't see it.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:16] Fantastic movie.

Brooklyn Alden [01:26:17] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [01:26:17] Really good. Yeah. With this stuff, too. I also love Esther Perel. I was going to mention her as well.

Do We Make Porn More Stigmatized?

John Dehlin [01:26:24] One of my kids said something the other day really interesting, and maybe it's an obvious thought, but he basically said, anytime you make something forbidden, you're going to increase someone else's desire to do the thing. And then the more. And then I thought, and then the higher the stakes, the more forbidden it is, the more terrible it is, the even more they're going to want to do the thing that's forbidden. Which is a weird paradox because what that implies is that we're creating societally the behavior we don't want. And I've seen this when I've counseled, let's just say Mormon men or women who were forbidden to look at porn and masturbate by their spouse, by the church. You know, we've talked about many times on Mormon stories that there have been reports that at times, Utah has had the highest rates of porn usage per capita in the United States. And I've seen it where I've counseled a couple, really, where the. Where the. Let's just say the woman is feeling like the husband is literally unfaithful because he looks at pornography, porn and masturbates. So the husband just wants to hide and lie about it, but then that shame makes him feel terrible and he needs to self soothe so he does it more. It's this terrible spiral. Right. But then when I've seen a couple get to the point where the. In this case, let's just say the wife says, you know what, I'm not going to police your personal behavior. I'm not going to code it as infidelity. So, like, no big deal. What you do in the bathroom or wherever is like, no big deal. Like, weirdly, for many people I've counseled, the desire to actually masturbate or look at porn has declined significantly once they were given the permission by their spouse to do it.

Guest [01:28:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:19] So that would be an argument for not, you know, again, the goal is to have. Have less infidelity. But would this argument mean that maybe one of the best ways to have less infidelity is to make it less stigmatized?

Samantha Shelley [01:28:33] Yeah, because I think there's. It can create such a psychological tension and like, feeling of being trapped. Like, feeling like. As you kind of mentioned earlier, there's this tendency in a lot of marriages to feel like you own the other person. And generally as human beings, we don't do well when we feel like we're being constrained by like this concept that someone else owns us. And so then it, it does make us want to act out. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:01] And it's not. I don't think it's chosen, like, I don't think we choose any of these behaviors.

Married People Talk About Sex On Facebook

Haley Rawl [01:30:32] Agreed. Yeah, I mean, I think those conversations require a lot of maturity in relationships. I mean, speaking about porn or masturbation, I think even talking about an example of this, my husband, he's a cinematographer. He's often working with, like, gorgeous models. And if I ever find myself feeling like, insecure about it, I'll say to him, like, what's your, you know, you've been working with this person, what's your relationship like? Like, but I have to be open enough and secure enough and mature enough that if he ever were to say, like, like, oh, there's like a little bit of a vibe there, then we can talk about that without me, like, freaking out or being. You know what I mean? Because in my mind that's. That happens, you know, I. That has happened with me.

Guest [01:31:17] Why?

Haley Rawl [01:31:18] You have to, like, allow the person to have their own world. And I mean, you know, maybe this is overly simplistic, but I do feel like having a safety in a relationship to talk about those things before they become some big hidden thing. Similar to what you were saying, John, about porn and masturbation. I think even, you know, having some sort of feelings for someone you're working with, if you come back to your partner and say, oh, you know, yeah, there was this kind of vibe, then you can talk about it. And sometimes that can even increase closeness because there's more honesty, there's more openness with each other. But I do think, speaking to the disadvantages of like, early marriage, it's like that, that's kind of. It takes a lot of trust to, to get there.

John Dehlin [01:32:02] This is like advanced marriage, right? Relationships, right?

Haley Rawl [01:32:06] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:32:06] We have a tendency too, within purity culture and US culture overall, too, to like, have a big defensiveness over people of the opposite sex hanging out or having opposite sex friendships once you're in a committed relationship. And I think that also kind of adds to this inherent tension that if you are married and you have a friend who is a male, or you're married and you have a friend who's. Who's a woman, like, that there is automatically going to be a sexual tension there. And that, that is inherently an unsafe space. I think it's also kind of building up this, this tension and building up this forbidden issue that then, you know, tends to actually lead to real problems. If we are like, assuming, oh, this person, because I'm married to a man and I. And I have this friend, that that means that this is somehow a threat. Now I'm more likely going to look at that person in like a romantic way because that's been like, now that I'm married, I have to assume this. Whereas before, you could just be a person, you know, or. Or even honestly not even in marriage, like, with children, we assume that, like little boys and little girls, if they're playing together. Oh, you have a crush on someone, you're married to someone. I think this is just such a larger, like, social relationship problem of how we view people of the opposite sex in particular. And also just like. Like a heteronormative culture anyway, where we tend to think that people of the opposite sex are inherently going to be like a sexual desire. And then we. We may tend to act on it because of that.

Haley Rawl [01:33:29] Yeah, my. Well, someone in my life once said long ago, kind of offhandedly, but they were like, never be in a car with someone of the opposite sex. Like, just the two of us gonna say that.

John Dehlin [01:33:40] I was taught that as a Mormon.

Samantha Shelley [01:33:41] Yes.

Haley Rawl [01:33:42] Okay. So that must have been where it came from. And at that time, I was in college and I had a really close group of friends. I was married, but we had like a bunch of couple friends. And was one time where one of the friends who was a man was like, going to give me a ride home because he happened to be on campus. And I remember being like, so out of sorts about it and really guilty and feeling a lot of shame, though. We just like, chatted like we always do. And I got dropped off at home. And I think that's just an. A small example of that, which is like, it creates something that does not need to be there. Especially when you have these really. Also to your point, Sam, like, these really bounded rules of like, being in a car together. That's the thing where it's like, that's not. There's nothing. That's not the thing.

John Dehlin [01:34:27] It adds to this charge that doesn't need to be there.

Haley Rawl [01:34:30] Yes, exactly.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:30] Your brain goes there. I also think it's hard, especially in more like, tightly wound social structures like Mormonism. Couples are not coming up with their sort of co. Commitments to each other from a place of like. Like, we're tuned in to what works for us as individuals and a couple. And as a couple. And like, instead they're just like, this is. They're handed this template for what your boundaries should Be. So, for example, I bet there's a lot of couples where both the husband and the wife would probably like it if they could be a little bit flirty with people outside their marriage. Like, they don't want to sleep with anyone else, but they'd like to be able to flirt. But either time any of them does it, they maybe go to a blame space because they have kind of that guilt within themselves that they also would like to be flirty. You know, things like that, where again, it's creating a problem where it doesn't need to exist because you're just trying to like, fit everyone in the exact same box. And maybe a couple that would have. Esther Perel has a really good TED Talk called Monogamish where she kind of talks about this. Like, it can be really healthy for couples to, you know, who are not wanting to be polyamorous. They don't want an open relationship, but just allowing themselves to sort of like, feel erotic energy with other people can be enlivening to their passion with each other. Just something to think about. But when in Mormonism, are you ever going to hear a case for like, yeah, it's fine to flirt with the opposites. Like, that would be obscene.

Haley Rawl [01:35:52] Yeah, Never, ever. And in the Mormon framework, even saying that people will be like, well, then you don't really love your partner or they don't really love you. And I think that's so reductive.

Samantha Shelley [01:36:03] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [01:36:03] And unfair. Especially when we're talking about these statistics of cheating. It's like, like, I, I don't think it's about how much love you have for your partner. I think it's so much more multifaceted than, than that. And then it's more multifaceted than these structures allow it to be. And then, you know, you just. When you're in Mormonism or other high demand religions, it's just like an increasingly tight structure. I mean, back to the genesis of all of this, the Mormons started swinging. And this is why. Right. They didn't. I think they had a lot of this eroticism and like, sexual tension and they had no other way to channel it. And so they ended up going to cabins and drinking and fooling around with each other. And to me, it's like, I'm surprised that doesn't happen more often when you think about these Mormon couples.

Mormon Family on EWTN

John Dehlin [01:36:54] I think it does happen a lot.

Haley Rawl [01:36:55] Yeah, it probably happens more than.

Brooklyn Alden [01:36:57] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:36:58] Not everyone else. A TV show.

Haley Rawl [01:36:59] Yeah, true.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:37:01] But I mean, as far as like, the really tight social structures too, like when we're looking at the show, I also just find it so interesting, like, the really distinct difference between mom talk and dad talk. And I feel like that has really come to fruition this episode. And I think that also kind of mimics larger social dynamics that exist within Mormonism and outside of it. But it feels like that's especially prominent within the church. Like, okay, women go here, men go here. We're very, like, gender binary. And then you also need to only hang out, like, with your own gender in. In any particular social gathering. Like, my husband and I, we were talking recently. Like, we. We were just on a group date with some friends, and we found that, like, the women were supposed to talk to each other and the men were supposed to talk to each other. And, like, my husband, like, found our conversation more interesting and kind of joined and, like, a couple of people seemed, like, lightly surprised, like, they didn't know, like, what's he doing here? And, you know, and I think that just kind of tends to be this, like. Like this very distinct, disparate, like, gender distinction, I guess, like, in social circles. Because, like, we think if we're going across it all, there is inherently going to be some erotic energy, but that's not necessarily going to be the case.

Brooklyn Alden [01:38:10] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:11] And it typically just ends up objectifying women, I think.

Haley Rawl [01:38:14] Totally.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:15] Because women generally know that they can, like, talk to a man in a social situation, and it doesn't mean it's anything but. I hate when I'm at, like, a certain type of event or party. And it's very clear that if you, as a woman, just, you know, start chatting to a man who's. Has a wife or whatever, that. That's kind of not. It's like, well, then you're just. All you're saying is that, like, you can only see me as a sexual object.

Haley Rawl [01:38:38] Yeah. Not as someone to chat to.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:41] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:38:41] Your competition with.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:42] With the other women.

Brooklyn Alden [01:38:43] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:43] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [01:38:44] I was just thinking about something I noticed. This is a small thing, but I feel like it came out in this season as well. Also in last season is Macy and Michaela. It seems Macy's the one who's, like, more Mormon. They constantly bring up that Taylor and Miranda have been in sexual situations together because of the swinging. And there's even a moment in this season where they're talking about if they wear garments or not. And Taylor's like, oh, I. They make a joke of like, well, you've only seen her when she's naked, essentially, like, you never saw her in garments. And that feels like an extension of that as well. Which is, like, this inability to, like, they're still so caught up on, like, oh, you've been. You've kissed each other. So what does that mean? Yes, exactly. As opposed to, like, this is all really quite fluid and ever changing. It seems like the. The Mormon mind can't really grasp. Grasp that. And. And gets really stuck on that of, like, these two women have kissed each other. What does that mean? You know?

Samantha Shelley [01:39:49] And have you noticed that all of the Mormon wives constantly make, like, gay jokes to each other? Like, they're always kind of, like, sexualizing each other, which I have no issue with, but it's just interesting. It's like, even though they're supposed to kind of contain their erotic energy to their husbands, it's coming out with their girlfriends in this interesting way.

John Dehlin [01:40:07] I'll say. I was really glad. So my daughter, one of. One of my kids is working in la. And. And Alyssa, it was super fun that your husband was traveling in la. And, yeah, they got dinner. Yeah, they got dinner. And my daughter was just like. The Mormon part of my brain was like, this is so weird. I'm having dinner with someone else's husband. But then she's just like, oh, wait a minute. It was just a fun dinner.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:40:35] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [01:40:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:36] So know, people are. We're figuring it out. Right.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:40:39] Slowly but surely.

John Dehlin [01:40:40] Yeah, that's good. All right. All right. So, yeah, what. What happens next?

Jesse and Eminem on the Road

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:40:49] Okay, so as far as. As timeline goes, we have a few more slides on Jesse, if you want to keep talking about Jesse, or we can move on to our next topic of just, like, the road.

John Dehlin [01:41:00] Yeah, let's finish up.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:41:00] What do we think?

John Dehlin [01:41:01] Yeah, okay.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:41:03] Okay, let's see.

John Dehlin [01:41:06] So they take a road trip. Eminem.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:41:08] Yes, that's where we are.

Eminem and Marciano in "Go to Beaver"

Haley Rawl [01:41:09] All right.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:41:09] Eminem take a road trip. They are back to being their truth tellers, trying to really determine the truth on whether Marciano and Jesse had sex. So they do a little bit of buddy comedy here on their way down, and it's very charming, but I do think it is, you know, really just interesting, this dynamic that we have of this, like, intensity to try to find the capital T truth. And again, some of this could be production, like, go on a road trip to be to Beaver. But I do think, like, the larger story is really interesting there about this, like, intensity of the semantics that we've talked about a minute ago. So they go to Beaver. Marciano admits that he'd lied about having sex with Jesse, and they're really relieved about that. Do you want to say anything about the Macy and Michaela on their way to. With that, with the Marciano.

Macy and Michaela on Their Love Story

Haley Rawl [01:42:02] The only thought I had about this is. I'm just remembering a moment when Jesse is talking about how she cheated, and she says, this is Taylor's role. And she kind of makes this point of like, I. How am I here? And I was just thinking about that in relation to Macy and Michaela, who are very much playing this like. Like, I mean, we get more into some of Michaela's internal world later in the season, but they kind of play these, like, stable characters. I do believe Michaela is openly not Mormon anymore, but Macy being kind of the most Mormon. And they kind of act like these mothers of, like, okay, we're gonna go solve this. We're gonna go figure this out. And it feels almost like a setting apart. Like, this is not what we do. We solve this problem. And I'm just thinking about that in relation to maintaining the perfection. Maintaining the, you know, this is. My marriage would never be in this situation. So here I am trying to help save someone else's marriage. And, you know, not saying I wish anything like this upon them necessarily. I'm just saying it's interesting to see how the ebb and flow of those characters and how ultimately, I think this type of thing can and does happen to all sorts of people. And it's sometimes difficult to see that and much easier to be like, well, I would never. But here I am, like, coming to save the day and. And figure out what happened.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:43:26] And the optics of that are particularly interesting because they do. They are both pregnant, you know, which is, like, an irony. But we have, like, two pregnant women who both have, like, three to four kids who are, like, also only 25. Well, Michaela's 25. I don't know. Whole mesia is a couple years older. But, yeah, taking on this, like, maternal role. This, like, yeah, let's. Let's fix this. Let's put this to bed. While they're still so young. Is also just, like, a really interesting.

Brooklyn Alden [01:43:51] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:43:52] Dynamic.

Haley Rawl [01:43:54] All right.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:43:55] So from there, he admits. He said, okay, I kissed Jesse. I stayed over in her room while they were drunk. But then he did lie about them having sex.

Haley Rawl [01:44:06] Sex.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:44:06] So.

John Dehlin [01:44:07] What a jerk.

Brooklyn Alden [01:44:08] I know.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:09] Why would you lie about that?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:44:11] Screen time. He got five episodes out of it,

Samantha Shelley [01:44:14] so,

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:44:16] yeah, really horrible. And so then all the women, they go to St. George for an event, and Macy.

Brooklyn Alden [01:44:23] Or.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:44:23] And Jesse decides to wait.

John Dehlin [01:44:25] Isn't it appropriate that the woman's carrying all the shame for the. Whatever infidelity there was?

Haley Rawl [01:44:32] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] How much screen time was given to Marciano wallowing in shame? Shame?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:44:38] Not at all.

Haley Rawl [01:44:38] He doesn't feel any shame, I can

Brooklyn Alden [01:44:40] tell you that much.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:41] Genuinely, if it was the genders were reversed, it would be heinous.

Haley Rawl [01:44:44] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:44] The level of. Especially because Martian knew that Jesse was married. It wasn't like a Jenna situation in the other season where she can't. She was fine because she didn't know.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:44:54] He knew she would be a home wrecker.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:56] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:44:57] And Jenna even is kind of pitched

Haley Rawl [01:44:59] that way a little bit, and she

Samantha Shelley [01:45:00] didn't know she did nothing.

Haley Rawl [01:45:01] Yeah, well, because if a woman cheats, it's like, well, she made the decision to do that. Where if a man cheats, it's like, well, there was this gorgeous woman in his bed. What's he gonna do? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] Brooklyn.

Brooklyn Alden [01:45:15] Yeah. I. I just totally agree that, you know, the show's literally called Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. There's not even any plausibility, you know, plausible deniability here that he knows she's a married woman. And I just completely agree with the double standards going on throughout this entire show that it's just kind of like we're all gonna laugh and joke and take a silly lie detector test with him where I just wish I could see it in roles. Reverse. And he'd be called, you know, if it was a woman, be called Homewrecker. Probably shamed all over the Internet, maybe lose her job. Like, you know, I just couldn't really get over that double standard. For sure.

John Dehlin [01:45:48] I've definitely seen that. You know, just the classical BYU football player has sex with a female BYU student. Somehow, inexplicably, the female BYU student gets expelled, but the BYU football player stays out and plays. Or the Mormon man has an affair. Somehow she gets excommunicated, and he doesn't like it. It almost seems like there's no way that's real. But I think it's. It's real. It's. And it's just this world. Sometimes I can't.

Haley Rawl [01:46:22] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:46:24] Yeah.

Jesse vs Marciano: Lie Detector Test

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:46:26] So from. From here, let's dive into our lie detector test. So.

Haley Rawl [01:46:31] Gotta have it.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:32] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [01:46:33] So.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:46:33] So Jesse meets with Marciano in St. George and decides to go to dinner with him. They talk about it. Everyone is. I. I think we can maybe talk both about the dinner, about their meetup, about the lighted hacker test, all of that. But basically, they have dinner. Marciano is very flirtatious with. With Jesse. He's complimenting her. He brings her flowers. It's Jesse, Michaela and Macy and Taylor. Who are all in St. George at the same time. Maybe someone else that I can't remember. They do the lie detector test to prove their innocence. Lie detector test, as, you know, valuable or invaluable as lie detectors are, basically comes back that they didn't have sex. They kind of like build this up as if it's going to be a storyline because something came back inconclusive. But then they never address it again. So apparently it's not a storyline. So I guess we'll just get past that little narrative blip and then they.

Haley Rawl [01:47:27] But the real, real.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:47:27] The real drama is then they go to dinner with Marciano when they. When they read the results. And Jordan is really upset about this. So they went to dinner together. And this sort of seems like a bit of a back and forth among the women on whether or not it was appropriate for Jesse to go to dinner with. With Marciano and the other women. They all went to dinner together. Taylor is, is really thinking it was a very bad idea for Jesse and Marciano to go to dinner together. Macy and Michaela are a little bit more jokey with Marciano. This becomes a tension more later when Jordan finds out. And also all of the men are very, very upset that the women, that their women didn't stop. Stop her. So let's. Let's chat about any of that.

Jesse And Jordan's Wedding

Haley Rawl [01:48:08] I didn't think the dinner was a big deal. I don't know if that's just a me. I mean, I think the reason. I think in a reality TV world, it's just like, of course they needed him there to read the results. They probably said, bring them to dinner. And just like, okay. Like that to me is not like the line in the sand that it seemed to be amongst everyone, particularly because they weren't alone. Everyone else was there. I mean, obviously in, you know, breaking the fourth wall. It's like Marciano is also a co worker at this point. Like, he's there in Utah to film. He probably needs to eat dinner. I don't know. To me, that was an interesting thing for Jordan to like, really dig into. And also for it to be like such a big deal amongst the women. I don't know. I didn't find it that big of

Samantha Shelley [01:48:57] a deal, especially as they were separated. I'm like, that is like the function of a separation is to just experience yourself as separate people for a while. But. So I do agree that if the genders were reversed, the women would have an issue with it. I do think that's true. But I also think it speaks to the fact that Jesse wasn't remotely worried that she was going to do anything wrong with Marciano. Like, she was trying to get redemption, you know, like, there was no risk that anything was going to happen.

Brooklyn Alden [01:49:23] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [01:49:24] I also think that brought up an interesting dynamic of the group dynamic, because then Jordan kind of used that as, like, that's when we got the comment from Zach about mom talk needs to be working to save Jesse and Jordan's marriage. And how could they let Marciano come to dinner with them? And I appreciated how the rest of the women handled it because they're like, I'm not Jesse's handler. Like, she is. She invited him. What am I gonna do? And yeah, maybe just speaks to also, like, group enmeshment and this need for like, policing amongst everyone's all up in everybody else's business, when in reality it's like, Jesse invited him. And I respect the women for being like, it wasn't their job. Even Taylor, she said how she felt about it, but I don't think it was anyone's job to kick him out. Out.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:50:11] But it is also a very Mormon thing to think we need to tattle on each other. BYU honor code, you know, this kind of like, baked in idea that if there's a problem, like, we need to tell someone. I remember when I was at byu, my roommates, it was. We were trying to decide if, like, it was our duty to call the honor code office because our roommate had an inset, had incense in her room. And we were like, technically, like, I know we're supposed. We didn't, luckily. But I do think, like, that that pressure is so heavy. And so I think that's kind of like where some of that is stemming from. And I can understand why there's like, going to be a thorn in their side. For Marciano in particular. I understand that he's not a neutral character, that he's also being flirty. I can see how there's going to be some sensitivity there. I don't think there is going to be any real threat of an actual relationship or further cheating happening. But I can see how it's like, you know, it's like when. When you. Your partner maybe, like, is friends with someone that you don't like. Like, you don't like that they're hanging out together or talking to each other. But I don't think it's this as. As scandalous as. As they're making it sound. So I can kind of see, like, why it would be a little bit obnoxious or Annoying. But I definitely don't think that it's this huge.

Haley Rawl [01:51:23] Yeah, you're right. Not the best look, maybe, but also not like, yeah, the crux of the issue either. It's.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:51:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [01:51:34] I agree that it just didn't seem like that big of a deal to me. And I think it almost spoke to how almost casual the whole situation was to begin with. And I never felt like it was that huge or, you know, super salacious or scandalous of a, you know, not great to be kissing someone outside your marriage. But I just felt like the fact they could so casually go to dinner and there wasn't some like, big heartbreak there from this emotional affair where we were so connected and then, you know, know he's lying about me and it fell off and like I felt like if there was all of these serious feelings there wouldn't have been able to just so casually go to dinner. And it just kind of reiterated to me that the whole thing just doesn't feel like that big of a deal to begin with in my eyes. I don't know, I could be totally off, but really quickly.

John Dehlin [01:52:17] A couple comments I'll share. A reddish 0823 says great show. Such smart, lovely women. I totally agree. Thanks for the super chat. A reddish I hate snarky comments and I'm gonna call one out. Bacon Cruiser writes, ugh. Remember when Mormon Stories was Michael Coe and Dr. Robert Rittner implying that this conversation isn't worth having? I hate this comment because I'm like episode 22 of like a 35 episode series with Dr. John Turner on the life of Joseph Sm. Like we do. We just did we do the LDS discussion series. We just covered. Nah home like what the freak?

Haley Rawl [01:53:05] Let us talk about the Secret lives of Mormon Wives, please.

Bacon Grease on The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives

Samantha Shelley [01:53:08] Like, media drives culture. Like it or not. Like stupid low common denominator media has a massive impact on culture.

Haley Rawl [01:53:16] I know. I think this show has. I mean, never heard of those guys. Yeah, I don't know who those doctors are, but I definitely know the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives women. I mean, if I may. Yes, I do. Yeah, if I may. Bacon0802 I mean, I do think that I understand where that pushback comes from around reality tv. But I mean, to your point, Samantha, this. I think even 50 years from now, this will be such a turning point in the way that Mormonism is known and spoken about. I'm listening to Alex Cooper on Call Her Daddy, one of the biggest female led podcasts in the world, and she's talking to Taylor Frankie Paul about Mormonism and what it's like to date Mormon men. That has not happened before. We're seeing Mormonism really explode in a way that I think is unprecedented. And I think that, that, of course, that's worth talking about. Of course that's worth looking at. What is this show saying about Mormon dynamics? What is it showing to the outside world about young Mormon women? I think it's well, well worth dissecting to the bone, as we are and as we will.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:34] And you can recognize the ways that reality TV is produced and the ways that that's influencing the stuff that's happening. Like, I think if you're a smart viewer, you can sort of see some of the differences between like, what's production versus what's like obviously real authentic emotion that's being brought out, whether or not the show is the thing prompting it. Like, it's still real human emotion, you know.

Haley Rawl [01:54:56] And my last thing I was just gonna say, I think it's easy to discount these women and their lives because they are young women who care about how they look and they make tiktoks and they dance. And I think that that is reductive to think that they don't matter and that their stories don't matter and that their stories don't say, say really big things about the culture that they grew up in and that they continue to be a part of. So I think to discount them as like, silly and vapid, which many people do. People do this with influencers. People do this with reality TV stars. And again, yes, there's levels of production. I understand it's, you know, you have to take some of it with a grain of salt. But I also think that, you know, who's to say that some doctor man has a more important life or opinion to be spoken about than these women? I think these women are worth speaking about.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:49] And if they're vapid, it's for a reason. So, like, that's interesting. Yeah, it's like if influences, the things people hate about influences, it's like, well, that's the impact of capitalism and like an insane advertising culture in the US and blah, blah, blah. There's always deeper you can go.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:56:04] Yeah. Alyssa Grandfather posted a video noting that the Secret lives of Mormon wives has had the largest uptick in Mormon Google searches than anything else over the past 20 years.

John Dehlin [01:56:14] So that's in all of Mormonism, like, including Mitt Romney running for president twice.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:56:19] You know, this is the cultural moment that Mormons are, are going to be known for. And I think that it's also interesting that, like the two people that Bacon Grease 02 is noting, it happens to be men and women dissecting part of culture that is especially impactful to women.

Haley Rawl [01:56:36] Exactly.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:56:37] Somehow seen as less valuable is something that maybe you should think about yourself. Bacon Grease.

John Dehlin [01:56:43] Wow.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:43] Drag, drag,

John Dehlin [01:56:46] Brooklyn.

Brooklyn Alden [01:56:48] Yeah. I could not agree more with everything. I mean, I think whether we like it or not, this is a big part of what's going on in Mormon culture right now. And, you know, we got to talk about it. It's Mormon stories. This is John's job, and I love it. And I also think these shows, Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, like, it's showing a spotlight on a new way that people are living Mormonism that, I mean, I personally did understand as someone who was very Molly Mormon, very orthodox Mormon. And I do get that there are people trying to live Mormonism in these ways now. And it's interesting for me to see it. And I think someone needs to, in an educated way, comment on the Mormonism of this all where normal pop culture podcasts aren't able to do in the way John is. So I think it's good content for the channel. John.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:37] Dr. John de Lynn.

John Dehlin [01:57:41] Well, Lane Bacon, 435.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:44] Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:57:46] So Michael Coe and Robert Rittner. Michael Koh was a Yale anthropologist who commented on Book of Mormon historicity. And Robert Rittner was a University of Chicago Egyptologist that commented on Book of Abraham historicity. And while I'm here for truth claim stuff like this is life stuff, it's not anthropology, but it's also life stuff.

Samantha Shelley [01:58:05] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:58:07] As an anthropologist, as a viewer of

Haley Rawl [01:58:09] reality, well, it's all kind of connected, right? I mean, we even have a moment, I'm sure we'll discuss about Layla talking about her biracial identity and this scripture in the Book of Mormon about the, you know, the curse of blackness. So that goes back to the truth claim of the Book of Mormon and the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Like, these are the real impacts of that happening to people. So I think to me, it's all connected. And I think to Brooklyn's point, the whole world is watching this show. I feel like it's really important as people who lived it ourselves and who understand, I mean, speaking to you, John, like the depth of these truth claims, etc, to be able to also provide some context. Because I will say one thing about the show, and I'm curious if they're doing this intentionally, but they don't provide a lot of Mormon context. They really Don't. And I think people are fascinated by it because they're, they're seeing these things play out without understanding all of the context behind it. And we're happy to provide context.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:11] This was such a deep season. I felt like all the themes were so heavy and deep for how much they were touched on or like able to be commented on. It was pretty nuts.

Dance With Me: The Secret Lives of Mormon Women

Haley Rawl [01:59:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:21] I also forwarded you guys the TikTok where Kristen Wiig is on Amy Poehler's podcast talking. I mean, that's the top five in the top, the top 10 again, another podcast, top 10 in the world, talking about secret lives of Mormon wives.

Haley Rawl [01:59:36] Yes. I just listened to another one, Los Culturistas. Jennifer Lawrence was on it and she's talking about Heather Gay and talking about soaking. You know, it's like you, you kind of can't avoid it now in a way that's really.

John Dehlin [01:59:47] Yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:59:48] And some of these podcasts I've been hearing people like googling on the spot, like, what is the Mormon Temple ceremony? Like? Trying to understand, like, what are all these references? Like, what are I. I was listening to a podcast of like two women in New York and they were talking about like, did you hear that like the Mormon Temple garments got changed? Like, I see that, like all the women are really excited because they can wear tank tops now. Like, this is really becoming such a big moment. And I think it's like teaching the world not just about these women's lives, but about Mormonism overall. And they're also talking. I heard one of them mention something about like Joseph Smith's young wives, you know, like, like even those types of stories are really starting to permeate. And I think that's going to also really affect Mormons, current Mormons who we've talked, you know, you've talked ad nauseam on the podcast about how Mormons aren't aware of like their actual history. But now that their history and their stories are becoming nationally and internationally known, I think it's going to be more and more difficult for active believing Mormons to not hear about Joseph Smith's 14 year old wives and to not hear about the. Those things. Like, I think that is also going to be a repercussion of this show, even though they're not talking about those specifics on the show itself.

John Dehlin [02:00:57] I may be stretching here, but like this week the, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints announced that young Mormon young women can now serve missions at the age of 18. And recently we also reported that, that for the first time in the history of the LDS Church, but also in broader US Christianity, there are more men in the pews than women on any given Sunday. That's in the LDS Church. And broader. How could it not be that shows like this, that discuss modesty, that discuss patriarchy, that discuss beauty standards in the treatment of women aren't impacting how young Latter Day Saints are either opting in or opting out of church membership. Is that a stretch? No.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:01:54] Not to mention, like, you see the way that their beliefs are shifting throughout the seasons. Like, we're on season three, and Jen, who starting off in season one was extremely devout, is becoming less so. She still identifies as a member, but we see a conversation later, which we weren't going to talk about about this time, but whatever, where she talks about how she's, you know, has some issues with some elements of the church and. And they talk really openly at one point in the season as well, about, like, Utah's treatment of. Of queer people and about, like, they're. They're starting to get really specific about problems within Utah and problems within Mormon culture. And I think that we can see not only the narrative of, you know, Mormonism at large being discussed, but that each of these women's beginning to have faith crises as we're coming along, which almost feels inevitable as they're starting to gather more fame, which also means gathering more information, which means being around a wider net of people that are outside of Mormon culture and outside of Mormonism. That seems like. Like, the more this is growing them, it's just getting bigger and bigger. And it seems like this is probably why the church is so worried about it. Is it snowballing for both members on the show and people outside of the show that there's. The more awareness there is about Mormonism, the more the secrets are coming out about Mormonism, the secret lives, perhaps. And it's. It's not a good look.

John Dehlin [02:03:10] Did y' all see the TikTok put out by the LDS faithful? YouTube apologists like Jasmine Rapley and Cardon Ellis and Jacob Hansen, they do the Secret Lies of Mormon Wives circle dance.

Haley Rawl [02:03:25] Oh, I did see that.

John Dehlin [02:03:26] Where they each. They each do a little dance pose.

Haley Rawl [02:03:28] We should do that.

John Dehlin [02:03:29] And it's. Jacob, should we do it?

Haley Rawl [02:03:31] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:03:32] Should ex wife do that? Who's gonna choreograph?

Haley Rawl [02:03:35] Oh, I can. I know that dance that they did.

John Dehlin [02:03:39] What?

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:03:39] Oh, no, no, keep going.

John Dehlin [02:03:41] I mean, Brooklyn, I don't know how you're gonna join the dance from. From the uk, but we'll stream you in it's definitely. You know, I even saw Jasmine asking the question of whether secret lives of Mormon wives is going to be good for the LDS Church. Do you guys see that? Like, is it just pain? Does it help pain paint LDS church members to be less weird, less pioneer dressed, stodgy, awkward, puritanical?

Haley Rawl [02:04:10] I've wondered that stretch. I've wondered that with. Especially because Whitney Levitt and Jen Affleck of the cast were on Dancing with the Stars.

John Dehlin [02:04:18] Another huge thing.

Haley Rawl [02:04:19] Yeah. Which is absolutely huge. And you know, watching them on that show, particularly where a lot of the pros on Dancing with the Stars are Mormon or Mormon adjacent. And yeah, it's a bit of probably a both. And where there is part of me that's like, ooh, don't get the wrong idea that there's not some real issues underlying this. Because when you see like just these gorgeous pro dancers, happily Mormon. But I think this show, as we've discussed before, it's like it only takes a little peek behind that door to realize otherwise it's not exactly as it seems. So, yeah, maybe there's a certain element of. I don't know, to me it almost makes it seem more bizarre that people who are living seemingly. I don't want to use the word normal, but that's the easiest word that's coming to mind. Normal lives are also holding these, like, very unique and to the outside world, often strange beliefs. Beliefs. It kind of throws that even more into contrast, I think I was gonna

Are You Ready for the Mormon Moment?

John Dehlin [02:05:28] say also Derek and Julianne Hough were raised Mormon. I mean, these freaking Mormons everywhere.

Haley Rawl [02:05:31] Yeah, Mormons are everywhere. Yeah, they really are.

John Dehlin [02:05:35] Like, I remember I've been through several Mormon moments in the past 20 years. Like PBS came out with this series called the Mormons 2005, 2006. Ish. That was supposed to be a huge deal. Richard Dutcher came out with his movies early on. That was supposed to be a big deal. Book of War musical came out and big love and we all thought, oh, that was going to be a really big deal. And then Romney works for president. Like there, there keeps happening. These Mormon moments keep happening in U.S. culture. And weirdly, this is the biggest one. So, like the trend is there's going to be a bigger one.

Haley Rawl [02:06:13] Yeah. I'm curious from your standpoint, having tracked all of that, John, why you think this is if. If you think this is the biggest one and why you think it is

Mormon culture: The quintessential American religion

John Dehlin [02:06:22] compared to all those, I could argue I. I think people, I've heard people say that I don't want to Say this about myself or us, but like I've heard people say Mormons are good looking. I've heard people say that Mormons are taught to be public speakers from a very young age. So they're very articulate. Or they're missionaries and so they articulate. They. We're a performance culture where we're learning to dance and sing and play musical instruments from a very young age age, even act. And then the missionary mindset of always wanting to project. Well, we're very image based. We've already talked about that. We're very, there's a heavy beauty culture. I can't tell you. Many, many people I know who have come from California, who've come from la, and they're like, I can't believe how appearance based Utah Mormon culture is for women. That's la. Like, I don't think la. Hey, does Utah out la, la.

Haley Rawl [02:07:17] Like so these plastic surgery rates we do, right?

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:07:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:22] And then, and then also we're the quintessential American religion. Like, and we're so corporate. Like we're, we're a 300 to 500 billion dollar church at this point and we're the most capitalistic of all. Like corporate Mormon Jesus is the most capitalistic, wealthy, successful Christian Jesus of all Christian Jesuses. So I mean, in so many ways we are the quintessential American religion. Why wouldn't we be? Why wouldn't Mormons represent American culture? Why? Someone tell me.

Haley Rawl [02:07:58] Yeah, yeah. Well, I think of your point earlier on when you were saying nothing is uniquely Mormon and I think Mormonism provides like, it's kind of like a magnified version of like a puritanical culture. It's a magnified version of patriarchy. So when you're able to see it so magnified, it provides a really great entry point to talk about not just Mormonism, but about patriarchy generally, about purity culture generally. So I think that for that reason as well, the Mormonism aside made. It's just a, it's a really good entry point to talking about these broader systems and, and cultures that really matter.

John Dehlin [02:08:40] Brooklyn, I saw we had to get you in. I saw you were unmuting for a second.

Brooklyn Alden [02:08:45] No, yeah, I was just responding because I agree, John, when you're saying, hey, could this help the church? I think it absolutely can. I just firmly believe that all publicity can be good publicity. And I frankly have been surprised that the church hasn't embraced this like Mormon moment even more and that they do seem to be wanting to remove themselves so much from it. Because when you think about when Book of Mormon Musical came out, I feel like they were kind of loving that moment and really working with it. And, you know, they would have the signs up everywhere, Times Square. Like, you saw the play, now read the book. And using that as an opportunity to, like, sell themselves more. And it feels like they really just want to distance themselves from this. And I get there's, you know, a swinging element involved, but Book of Mormon Musical had some. A lot of adult themes in it as well. And I'm just. I've been surprised that they haven't embraced it more and understood that it could help the publicity of the church.

John Dehlin [02:09:40] Well, yeah, that's brilliant. Point. And, you know, Quinton Cook, the Mormon apostle who's in charge of missionary work, is running around the world now saying that the LDS Church is growing in every region or area in the world. Not just Africa, not just Latin America, not just the Philippines, but everywhere. I think he's lying or misleading people. That's my opinion. But if it's true, then maybe. Maybe Secret Lies of Mormon Wives is leading to an avalanche of US Conversions. So I guess to stay tuned on that one, because wouldn't that be interesting if we're. If. If we're gonna all of a sudden double as a world religion because of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives? And now. Jump the shark. We've jumped the shark. All right, where do we go, Alyssa?

Dakota Taylor on Her Relationship to the Mormon Church

Haley Rawl [02:10:25] Yeah, I.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:10:26] Well, while we're just kind of talking about maybe the women's relationship to Mormonism, Let's. Let's talk about that more. I think that you can just kind of address. We have a clip, I guess.

Haley Rawl [02:10:36] Let's.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:10:36] Let's jump forward to Taylor kind of talking about her relationship to the church. This is. I don't see the number, I think.

John Dehlin [02:10:43] Oh, okay. So which side?

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:10:45] 23.

John Dehlin [02:10:46] Oh, okay. Sorry.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:10:48] It's called Taylor and Dakota Taylor Church.

Samantha Shelley [02:10:51] Oh, yeah.

Haley Rawl [02:10:51] This was right at the beginning.

John Dehlin [02:10:52] I was like, it's slide.

Haley Rawl [02:10:54] Yeah, it's that one. I think that you're.

John Dehlin [02:10:56] Oh, okay. Okay, okay. All right, here we go. Thanks. Sorry for our technical difficulties.

"Are You Ready to Go to Church?"

Guest [02:11:03] You ready to go to church? When it comes to church, I only go for, like, the foundations of it, like, love, family service, and I like going, but I like to go when I want to go. It's like a personal thing for me, and I know not a lot of people can live in the gray, but for me, I can.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] I mean, that's. We did a show recently on Mormon stories about these four types of Mormons, and of all the people in the United States who identify as lds. A quarter don't attend at all. So that leaves, you know, a remaining 75%. 25% identify as link as ultra orthodox. And then another 25 or no, no, another 7ish percent are, like, confused and don't know. But there's this large block of like, 41% of people who identify as Latter Day Saints in the United States are kind of cafeteria buffet, liberal, progressive Mormons. Like, she just characterizes like, ah, sometimes I go, sometimes I don't. What do y' all think about that?

Haley Rawl [02:12:08] I think it's an interesting comparison point. I don't want to jump the gun on what we learned from Macy, but I've been thinking a lot about this because Macy, I would say, is a progressive Mormon in the sense that she has a temple recommend. She believes in it, it seems, and yet she will say things like, I firmly disagree with their stance on LGBTQ people. She drinks coffee. Taylor. I have a less hard time with Taylor's approach because I feel like Taylor is saying, I like God, I like Jesus. This is my faith tradition. It's familiar to me. So if I want to go worship, that's where I go. She seems a little bit more almost honest with herself, I guess, in a way of just being like, yeah, I know that this is. This is kind of unique and it might cause questions for people, but it's like, if I want to go, I go. If I don't, I don't. Whereas to me, Macy feels like she's living in so much cognitive dissonance of, like, no, I'm Mormon. I go to the temple, I do all the things, and yet I drink coffee and firmly disagree.

John Dehlin [02:13:14] She's on the show.

Haley Rawl [02:13:16] Yeah.

Guest [02:13:16] And.

Haley Rawl [02:13:17] And I mean, she's not. You can tell she's, like, not wearing her garments, which is fine. I just think, to me, that approach is a bit more frustrating where I feel like, Taylor, there's still a big part of me that's like, girl, just give it up. Like, you don't need. You know, there's better churches out there if you want to go worship, whatever. But I can understand where she's coming from in the sense of. Of, yeah, this is what I'm used to. This is familiar to me. I know my word, if I feel like going, that's where I'm going to show up. Whereas someone like a Macy, it feels more frustrating because it feels like an unwillingness to see that she is doing something that the church is so adamantly against, that she's getting a temple Recommend even though she openly drinks coffee. Like, technically speaking, that should not even be allowed to happen.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:02] Can that happen now? Is that like a new thing? Or can you have a temple recommend and drink coffee?

John Dehlin [02:14:07] I mean, nowadays, you. The church is not enforcing cannabis.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:14] Really?

John Dehlin [02:14:14] Yeah, well, I mean, once, once cannabis became legalized for medical use in, in, in Utah and also in, in Colorado and other places, I think the church just realized this is going to be impossible to enforce. So I, I have heard of no church discipline around Canada US I've heard of no church discipline around psychedelics. So weirdly, Mormons all over Utah, active, faithful, believing Mormons are doing mushrooms. They're doing. They're doing ketamine. They're doing lsd. Yes, no, for sure. Like psychedelics.

Haley Rawl [02:14:50] Have you ever heard in like a therapeutic setting? My.

John Dehlin [02:14:53] Well, not just that. I had. I had a bishop tell me that his stake president took him on a psychedelic journey.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:15:00] Wow.

Haley Rawl [02:15:01] How recently?

John Dehlin [02:15:02] In the past six months.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:03] Really?

Haley Rawl [02:15:03] Because I was just going to say someone I know was recommended ketamine therapy from the bishop's wife, like in the past.

John Dehlin [02:15:11] Patrick Mason's wife. So Patrick Mason is the number one faithful LDS scholar in the world, probably who's actively doing scholarship. His wife ran a psilocybin educational seminar. It was like ketamine psilocybin at the RESTORE Conference, which is the conference for faithful Mormons in the church. Like it. So anyway, I think coffee and tea. The church is sort of unofficially telling bishops and stake presidents not to keep people out of the temple for coffee and tea. I just think across the board the church is lowering its standards. And I was going to ask you all, when you watch these women sort of talking about how they Mormon. On the one hand, I think we're all celebrating, but are any of you just going? And Brooklyn, I think I want to go to you first because I think I was watching you shake your head on this. Like, do any of you watch these women and go, that does. I don't even recognize these women as Mormon. Brooklyn, do you want to go first on that?

Mormon Women Talk About How They're Mormon

Brooklyn Alden [02:16:16] Yeah, I, I definitely agree with that. It's difficult for me as someone who, like Taylor says, was not able to live in the gray, because I just think when you see Mormonism a certain way, you just. I just always saw it as like, either you're doing it all or you're doing nothing. It's such an all or nothing religion, at least how I understood it in my orthodox Mormon brain. So it, it is really difficult for me to understand even how that works within Their brains. But then I feel like I have such a respect for someone like Taylor, who's so authentic about it. And I have to say, I feel like I'm almost jealous of how she's able to live in that gray because I was just someone who was not. And it was like, if I wasn't all in, then I needed to be all out. And I think a lot of things almost would be easier if I was able to be in the gray. But I'm still in a place where I just can't wrap my head around how that works or how they rationalize that in their own mind. So it still confuses me to this day, you know, as 10 years outside the church.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:18] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:17:18] I also feel just very conflicted about all of it and feel very confused. I think that anybody, of course, has the right to be able to define themselves and use whatever label they want to. And I think that if somebody wants to define themselves as Mormon, then they can define themselves as Mormon. But I definitely don't, like, see myself or, like, the religion that I grew up in in them. And I think there's been a lot of conversation, like, casually saying, oh, it's a younger generation thing. Like, it's this new thing. But I think it's more of a recent thing because I'm a similar age to all of these women. And I grew up extremely orthodox. And it wasn't just that my family was really orthodox. It was. You know, I grew up in Utah, and it was very, very strict. Anything even remotely close to a tank top at prom was completely unacceptable. There was some really serious, like, social repercussions of anything like that. And so, yeah, I don't know. I think I definitely feel mixed about kind of how those things are coming out, similar to even just, like, the garments, for example. In some ways, I feel jealous. Kind of like how Brooklyn was saying, like, this thing that had so much trauma for me is now this celebrated moment for so many people in this community. And I feel really happy for them. And I also feel like an outsider. It is a really odd way to see this thing that I once knew so well and still feel like I know really well, changing underneath my feet. I sound like I'm 100 years old

Haley Rawl [02:18:41] when I say that it's not the

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:18:43] same how it used to be. But, yeah, I don't know. It's really odd to not feel like I even really relate to the community that exists and how much has changed even since I left, which was in 2018. And even at that time, like, you swear? I was. It was very seven years ago.

John Dehlin [02:18:59] Seven years ago. It just shows how fast Mormon culture is changing. It's changing at light speed.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:19:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:06] Right?

Haley Rawl [02:19:06] Yeah. I just had Amy McPhee Alabast on my podcast. John, thank you for connecting us.

Amy McPhee Alabast on The Mormon Church

John Dehlin [02:19:13] Breaking down patriarchy.

Haley Rawl [02:19:14] Yes, from breaking down patriarchy. And she shared an analogy that was like, oh, that's it. It. And she said that when you grow up in the church, you are living in this beautiful, happy town with your family, but you start getting sick slowly over time. And then you learn that there's nuclear radiation and it's causing you to get sick. So no matter how much you love the town, you know, you have to leave it in order to prevent yourself from getting more sick. And she was saying that she sees these changes, like changing the tank tops, like maybe not cracking down as much on coffee and tea, as almost a medicine to mask what is the underlying problem, which is still patriarchy in. In this context of what we were talking about. And I feel like that helps describe it, how I feel about it, which is, on one hand, I am happy for Taylor, and I do respect her and even admire that she's like, you know, eff it. I'm just gonna relate to this the way that I want to. But on the other hand, I almost worry about that now. Women will see that they will remain in the church in this kind of halfway way, but when they're still showing up to church, they're still hearing patriarchy. They're still seeing patriarchy.

John Dehlin [02:20:24] Like Maddie Packer responded to that clip with you and Amy there, that. That's the way it's going. There's this whole resurgence now on Tick Tock and Instagram of faithful Mormon apologist young women who are sort of responding to you, Haley responding to Alyssa, Grenfell responding to you, Samantha and others basically clapping back and saying, stop calling us oppressed. We. We have power. We love this. Stop telling us that we're miserable. It's a real resurgence.

Haley Rawl [02:21:00] Yeah. And they say we are anti feminist because we are saying, oh, you know, garments are anti feminist. And they're like, well, we're choosing it. So you're the anti feminist because you're saying that I didn't actually make this choice. But I think, objectively speaking, the person who made the choice of what the garments look like is a man. Are men, period. I mean, that's. You can't argue that. So, yes, it's a woman's choice if she wants to opt in or out of that, but it's not a woman who is, like, making those calls on that level. And I do think, yeah, I mean, obviously I do feel passionate about this because I found myself many a times, like, in levels of conversation with these women. And again, it's like, I think what's so emotional about it for me is I see myself in them and I see, like, no, I can have it always. I can stay Mormon. I can do, you know, have this life that I planned on having of being a Mormon and a good Mormon, and I can be a feminist and I can be an ally to the queer community and I can drink coffee and I can wear a tank top now. And I think, again, Amy said it best where it's like, you are still not going to be able to avoid patriarchy. You're still not going to be able to avoid purity culture. That is still the foundations of the Mormon religion, I think.

John Dehlin [02:22:21] Yeah. But this puts. This really does put ex Mormons or. Or liberal or questioning or critical Mormons in a weird position because we're all. We're all saying Mormon culture is a problem. Mormon culture needs to change. And so they're changing and they're making garments better, they're making the temple ceremony better. They're becoming more laxed about adultery, about premarital sex, about even being gay. Like, Charlie Bird and his husband are still active and faithful as far as we know, in their war forward. They're making all these improvements and we're stuck between. Hopefully there's part of us that are like, yay, they're making it better for women, better for gay people, better for just adolescents and young adults and this grumpy self. Like you said, Alyssa, where it's just like, I stopped the Mormonism I was raised in. I didn't get to wear that dress.

Haley Rawl [02:23:16] Okay.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:23:16] I did not use that voice.

John Dehlin [02:23:22] I heard that. I heard that when you were talking. But, like, do we want the church to get better or not? And if they get better, then we're. We're grumpy because we didn't have that experience. But should there be a part of us that's happy that they get to be in a healthier church? And even if, yes, a man still decided what their underwear is wearing, at least it's a. It's a. Less yeast infection.

Haley Rawl [02:23:45] Yeah, it's more comfortable. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:46] More comfortable. A tiny bit more sexy underwear. I'm not. I'm not. I'm. I promise I'm not calling you. I hate.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:23:52] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [02:23:53] I think it's a complex.

Guest [02:23:54] I agree.

Haley Rawl [02:23:54] I think it's both. And I think to me, the word I keep thinking of is insidious. It's. To me, it's almost more insidious the more they're pretending to be something that I just don't think they are. And I would almost. I don't want people to be harmed along the way, which I. So I am happy that people are hopefully being spared harm and discomfort, etc, because people are still Mormon and will continue to be. And at the same time, I do think it also is kind of sneaky too, because it's like now people can say, active Mormons can say, look, now 18 year old women can go on missions, look how progressive. And it's just not. That doesn't make the church progressive. And if it, if it's more progressive,

John Dehlin [02:24:38] a little more progressive.

Haley Rawl [02:24:39] A tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny bit. Right, right. So, yeah, it. But to your point, it's true. It's like you don't want it to be. I'm not actively rooting for the church to get more patriarchal or more unfriendly toward the LGBTQ community, but I think that that is who they are at their core, I think, speaking personally. And so it almost just feels like more. Yeah, it's like sneakier.

John Dehlin [02:25:04] It's complicated.

Mormon Women Say They're Not Oppressed

Brooklyn Alden [02:25:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:05] I could just see the general authorities just going, man, those ex Mormons, you just can't make them happy. You don't change. They're mad.

Haley Rawl [02:25:13] Damned if you do, damned if you

John Dehlin [02:25:14] don't convince them that, you know, you start making big changes and they're grumpy. I want to come to you, Alyssa and Sam. I told Brooklyn I'd come to her first and then Alyssa and then Sam.

Brooklyn Alden [02:25:23] Oh, you're fine. We may have slightly moved on this point, but just going back to what you said about, you know, women are saying, hey, I'm not, I'm not oppressed. Don't paint me as that. I feel like that's super, you know, in line with how Mormon women feel. I remember being in and sacrament pews, probably around eight years old, with my mom and my mom whisper in my ear of like, oh, you know, we, us women secretly know that we are kind of the most powerful in the church and just kind of always being taught that since I was young. And I feel like that's just kind of a sneaky way of making us feel like it's our choice when it isn't always. I don't know. Then after I left the church, I just kind of always look back on that feeling like, like I don't think that did come from women. I think it came from having to justify where we are in that patriarchal, patriarchal system. And it just feels icky to me as I look back on it, that I, I did used to convince myself like, oh, no, I am kind of more even higher above in this grand scheme than even the men. And the fact you have to convince yourself that so much, I think shows that you're not as an know that makes sense, but totally.

John Dehlin [02:26:36] And they're going to say we're being condescending Brooklyn. Like, we're not letting them describe their own experience. We're projecting onto them even our past experience. But they're, they're saying now on Tik Tok and Instagram, stop telling us we're oppressed. Stop telling us we're unhappy. We're choosing this and we're happy. And it's complicated. Right? Brooklyn. Yeah, yeah. Alyssa, you go. And then, and then Sammy.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:27:02] Yeah. I mean, I think it's. An individual woman can absolutely be happy and she can choose that for herself and she can be empowered and she herself may not be oppressed. And I think that's, that's really good. And I think that can be the best choice for many women. They can find genuine joy within the church and genuine empowerment within the church. I think that's fantastic. But I don't think that takes away from the systemic and structural patriarchal format of the church. And you said a moment ago, like, well, they're making big, big changes. And I think, think, you know, we've had the temple language change in 2019. We took off a couple inches. These are seemingly big changes, but they're still somewhat, you know, topical changes and that even members themselves would admit that they would say their policy changes, not doctrinal changes. The problems really are with, with the doctrine itself that the doctrine is inherently patriarchal. We have, you know, reading Dear Mormon man from Amy Fiala Best, the video was just published about it. I think we can see from there that it is layer upon layer upon layer upon layer of patriarchal man in charge elements of the church. And so we can as. As empowered as an individual woman might feel and happy to wear whatever outfit she's choosing. We have to also be honest with ourselves that all of this is coming from men, that that righteous dominion is still dominion. It doesn't have to be unrighteous dominion in order for it to be harmful. That we are still not making choices for ourselves, ourselves. And whether we feel like we are granted little bits of permission along the Way awesome. That's great. I think that can make an individual person feel very happy and satisfied with their life, but that does not make it a healthy institution. That does not make it a progressive institution. That does not make it a pro feminist institution.

John Dehlin [02:28:45] I don't think the church wants to be pro feminist. Yeah, and I don't. I don't. Yeah. I think the church wants to be a patriarchy, but I do think it wants to be healthy. Sammy, what were you gonna say? Did you forget?

Samantha Shelley [02:29:01] I had like, a million things at different ones. I think what Haley said about the fact that it's. It's patriarchal and it's purity culture kind of no matter what, is sort of the main crux of it. Like, the fact that a church that's sort of losing influence over its members is workshopping the best ways to continue having those members be psychologically dependent on them. Like, that's the real issue. I really don't give a. Like, what kind of garments they're allowed to wear. I don't think anyone who's like, ex Mormon, saying, like, oh, man, I had to wear worse stuff. I don't think any of us actually care, you know?

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:29:31] Yeah, totally.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:32] And it is insidious the ways that they're like, I don't know, sort of performing an amount of progressivism. And I also don't think it's any more progressive allowing women to go admissions earlier now, because it's like, like, okay, you're recognizing that you're losing women, that you, a patriarchal church, are losing women. So you're just like, how can we retain control of their psyches? I'm like, where's the. That's not progressive. It's like, that's such a shallow.

John Dehlin [02:30:03] But they don't want to be progressive. They want a strong church.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:06] Yeah, but I want people's psyches to break free from control.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:30:10] I think they want to have. Have a strong church, which means not scaring people who are conservative or people who are progressive.

John Dehlin [02:30:16] Progressive, conservative, trying to thread the needle.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:30:18] Conservative people can say they're conservative. Progressive people can say they're progressive. And they've got plenty of arguments with every. I mean, even just taking, like, the women being able to go on missions at 18, you can argue a conservative argument for that. That they still have only a year and a half that I, in some ways, I could see it. I saw a Tribune article arguing that, like, this may increase education for women. This may lower the birth rate. I. I didn't. The whole thing, so. So I could Be totally misconstruing their argument. Misinformation. But, but I could also definitely see that being something that would

Does a More Polite Mormon Church Increase the Birth Rate?

Haley Rawl [02:30:54] increase the

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:30:54] birth rate, increase people going to Mormon, staying within Mormonism, because with men and women leaving at the same time, I can also see this as more high school sweethearts getting married because they're not going to have the time where women are going to be going to college and meeting an RM or even maybe deciding to leave the church with in that first couple years or maybe waiting longer for their RM to come home. They all of everybody will be leaving at the same time, coming home roughly around the same time, marrying their high school sweetheart, having babies right away. In some ways I could see that increasing people staying within the church. So that is a Mormon or a more conservative Mormon argument. And then you take a more progressive Mormon argument and say, oh well now it's slightly more equitable. So I think, yeah, you can thread the needle on, on both ends in that. And the church wins regardless of this.

John Dehlin [02:31:38] It's tricky. I, I'm just dying to know. It's just, it's objectively factual that the church culture is becoming less orthodox and it's objectively factual that the church is, is weakening its control over its membership. We often talk about the bite model, and the bite model is defined primarily at first and foremost by behavioral control. The church is ramping down. It's turning down the volume on its behavioral control. And I'm just dying to see, number one, if it actually works out to be a healthier lived, faithful LDS experience. Even if it's not, even if still a patriarchy, is it still a more positive experience than, let's just say what y' all experienced? And ultimately, does it weaken and harm the church in the long run or does it retain and even increase growth by, by chilling the F out a little bit?

Samantha Shelley [02:32:38] What's interesting because Taylor in that clip we just saw said that she goes for the foundations, which is love, family and service. And like those are human foundations and the church just sort of co ops them and is like, we're the guys that are serving you this. But I feel like the more you remove the behavior control and the rules, the more the church is sort of revealed to be what it is, which is like. Well then what's unique about it? It's like the, the specific bizarre behavior. Control is a big part of what made it unique and what gave people identity and like the feeling that there are peculiar people, blah, blah, blah. But love, family and service, you can find anywhere. Like those are intrinsic to us.

John Dehlin [02:33:15] I. I do think we could talk about this all day. I. I do think the church does a good job of creating community. Not that it's the only place that creates community, but I think it creates community. I think it provides structure, support for parents and families that need support. Maybe not all parents and families at all socioeconomic levels depend on the church as much, but.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:38] But it's able to do that through the apparatus of the patriarchy as well. Like.

John Dehlin [02:33:42] And that's. That's one way to organize decision making and leadership. And I'm not a defender of the patriarchy, but I, you know, I think. I mean, I submit that. I don't know if, you know, we had an African from Kenya who joined the church in Africa, came to the United States, became a doctor, was angry, you know, left the church, was upset that he was not told the truth about the priesthood ban. And yet when I asked him, are you glad that the church is quintupling down on African converts? He's like, yeah, I'm so glad these Africans are going to be brought into a church that values education, that's going to help them. Them learn literacy and education and have a community and support and, you know, they need to figure out the church isn't true at some point in their life. I'm glad in. In those younger years or in those earlier years, they're getting support that helped me become a doctor in the United States. That's what he said. Yeah, right.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:39] It's. It's a tough one. It's like the problem of, like, Christian missionary work generally, where it's like, you're offering these. Yeah, exactly. You're. I mean, especially Mormonism. It's such an ethnocentric religion that, like, I lost.

John Dehlin [02:34:53] It's complicated. It's complicated.

Jen Talking To Ezra Soza On Difficult Issues

Haley Rawl [02:34:55] I feel like it's worth bringing up again. Jen talking to Ezra Soza. So Jen went on Dancing with the Stars, and she's talking with Ezra, who is a pro on Dancing with the Stars and is openly ex Mormon and gay. And their conversation was so interesting because Ezra, I mean, they were friendly and polite and respectful toward each other, but Ezra was like, like, yeah, I came out as gay, and my parents took me out of dance. They thought dance was making me gay. He was like, I mean, it was awful and traumatic. And then he said, eventually my family came to see this for what it was, and they left the church in solidarity. And Jen responds and she's like, yeah, you know, like, I just kind of take the good and leave the bad. And I feel like that. Yeah. And it puts it so into perspective, which is like. And not to say that I don't think Jen is still being harmed by the dynamics of the church, but it's like, okay, someone who's not gay can more easily take the good and leave the bad. Ezra could not. And I think it's really beautiful that his family, in solidarity, realize, well, if this is what it did to my son, then we're gonna also step out on this. A note on the show is that I. I wish they would. They would play that out a little bit more. Like, all. There's these little glimpses we get of these things that we're discussing, and I'm sure that women have thoughts and feelings on these things, but it feels like they're really toeing a line. It almost feels like they maybe find it, like, political or something, and that's what they're trying to avoid, because it is in some ways. But I was like, oh, man, if we could only get a few more minutes of that conversation with Ezra and get a little bit more into, like, well, how do you relate to people like Jen, Ezra, who have just been like, well, yeah, sucks for you. I don't believe in that part. But, you know, I still go on Sunday because I like it. I just feel like there's so much there, and it is complicated, and I don't mean to make it more reductive than it is, but there's so many points that I feel like the show could have explored that, and they just seem. I don't know if you all felt that way, but it felt like they would get there and then just like, next scene.

John Dehlin [02:36:56] Season four. Season four.

Brooklyn Alden [02:36:57] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [02:36:58] Hopefully. Hopefully.

John Dehlin [02:36:59] Brooklyn.

Brooklyn Alden [02:37:00] I just love that point that you made, Haley, because I think this all the time, that I think that it's such a privilege to be able to stay in that gray area of the church where some people, for example, like we're saying with the lgbtq, it's so much more difficult and harmful to mental health, so many aspects of their lives in order to stay in. And I just see this in my own life of people that I grew up with, LDs versus my family leaving LDs, where as soon as I felt like, for example, I mean, in my life, just one small element of, like, going through divorce in a family, like, as soon as you didn't fit into that little perfect Mormon box, where it works out really well for you, you just. The people who do fit in that box, that I just don't see them ever having a reason to leave the church. And I just see that as like such a privilege that isn't recognized a lot of the time. And I think someone like Jen and maybe Taylor have that privilege.

John Dehlin [02:37:55] Yeah, I, I have to always check myself because I sometimes have this tendency to want to remind ex Mormons that there's good in the church. But I have male privilege. Like I had a great lived male experience as a Mormon. And one of the things I hate most about civilization is that like, it's white men and then it's black men and then it's gay men. And we're, we could talk all day about how sympathetic we are about those people and how glad we are for their advances, but women are always last. There's still, still never been a US President who's a woman. And Michelle Obama said she's not running for president because America is not ready to have a woman as president, so she's not going to run like women. We talk about LGBT people. Oh man, LGBT people are really harmed in the church. But what Margi tells me is that women are really harmed in the church. And I, I'm just gonna admit that I forget that.

Mormon Women on Standards and Prejudice

Haley Rawl [02:38:52] Well, I think as a white woman, I do that same thing because, I mean, that's another thing that I feel like we got a little bit more of this season with Laila, who's a black biracial woman. And again, that's something that I think could be much further delved into. But her experience is so different than, you know, Taylor's experience because of her ethnicity. So I feel like that, yeah, it can kind of go down the line forever. And I think it's important to remember as a white woman too.

Samantha Shelley [02:39:23] Yeah. And I guess, I don't know, it's so human that we get into these modes of thinking where we feel like we have to endlessly litigate something like, is it good, is it bad? And it's just like everything in life is going to be just a mix of all of it. I, I think most ex Mormons, like ultimately do know that. I mean, a lot of us would probably say like the, the, the ends don't justify the means. Like maybe the church does provide a solid community that is helpful to a lot of people in certain ways. But like women, women's bodies and lives are not acceptable collateral damage for that. Like the human psyche is not acceptable collateral damage for that. You know, we're fueling this like multi billion dollar engine that, you know, maybe it's helping some people get education, but it's also Robbing a lot of people of education as well. I mean, specifically women, if we're being honest.

John Dehlin [02:40:12] It's true. It's true. Let's play a couple, you mentioned Layla. Let's play a clip that we have, have a couple clips around this theme of standards and patriarchy.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:40:22] And he could be more.

Guest [02:40:23] I mean, doesn't have to not be, but I'm like, I just don't want that double standard of like, we can't do this, this and this, but we can have sex. Literally. My ex. Yeah, Like, I didn't like, like drinking would give me for doing that. But then one time, one time we went to church together. Five minutes of us getting home. Since I kind of like rip off my dress, like. Exactly. Maybe we should wait like a couple hours. We did just get home from church. Yeah,

Haley Rawl [02:40:50] there you have it.

John Dehlin [02:40:52] What's wrong with a little post church sex, everybody? Come on.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:54] It's like right after a couple of hours.

Haley Rawl [02:40:57] I mean, this just pointed out to me the, the self serving nature of. And also I, I guess more so the way that a Mormon man can, can seemingly judge someone like Taylor or Layla and be like, you know, don't drink coffee, don't drink alcohol. Heaven forbid that you're seen doing those things. Oh, but I want to have sex with you so that one doesn't matter as much when in the hierarchy of Mormon sins, sex is very, very, very much worse than those other things. And I do think systems like Mormonism, when you do have all these different rules, you know, not everyone does, but it does give people grounds to be hypocritical in that way and kind of pick and choose where it serves them and where it doesn't.

John Dehlin [02:41:45] Should we play the second clip?

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:41:46] Let's do it.

Macy On Layla's Mormonism Comment

John Dehlin [02:41:47] All right, let's play the second clip.

Guest [02:41:50] I think that's something that's common in Utah, is that we almost like correlate being a member with like, if they don't have that, they're not raised with like good values, which, like, you can still be a good person and not be a member. Most of my friends weren't Mormon, so I feel like I knew that, like, obviously people can have like good morals and values. Being a person without being Mormon, Mormon, it might make things more difficult. Like when you have kids, if you, if you're passionate and you want to be Mormon and he doesn't, then you are having a marriage for sure. Yeah, like, would be hard.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:15] No, Macy's defense.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:42:17] Yeah, she is, she gets defensive a few times here, which is really interesting. I Think it's when they, when they start to kind of dissect like the elements that aren't even just like cultural parts of Mormonism, but that are literally doctrinal parts of Mormonism that like Mormons are inherent, are just better than everyone. Like we're the only people that are going to make it to heaven. And I think that's kind of where Macy's cognitive dissonance is really coming into play. And she's doing a lot of like, of what I think a lot of people like the, the Mormons in your comments who are saying, well, I haven't felt oppressed, is not looking at systems and is just looking at personal experience. And I think that is just like a really harmful way of especially responding to someone being really honest and being really vulnerable in that moment when Layla is talking about like her lived experience to kind of jump at this. Well, I haven't had that. I think that's a really common way that we as humans want to like push away from like systemic criticism and try to just like make it more about our own personal lived experience.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:25] You constantly see like the more Mormon people in the show, like Jen saying it's cultural issues, it's not doctrine, but it's like when she was talking with the dancer, it's like, well, the family, a proclamation to the world is doctrine, like the first presidency all signed that. So it's not just cultural to be homophobic, you know, but it's like that's, they keep like relying on that as

Haley Rawl [02:43:47] their excuse and wanting these things to exist in a vacuum. I think I particularly bristled at this moment with Macy because two reasons. The one thing is that kind of separation of doctrine and culture, which I think is those things inform each other so completely that you, you cannot separate them because that's where the culture comes from. And I feel like it was condescending of her to be like, well, I'm from California, so duh. And like you're naive. It felt like she was trying to call Layla naive, which I bristle at as like a Utah raised Mormon. Because I'm like, yeah, I was, but that's because of, I was a product of the environment that I was put inside of, you know, like, how much can I do as a teenage girl living in Provo, Utah? And you're still going to internalize those messages because that's what I thought. I thought you had to be Mormon to essentially be a good person in the most reductive terms. So for someone just to be like, well, you Know, that's just. That was. Your interpretation of it feels really unfair also because even if the interpretation that Macy had was different, can. Is she not able to at least validate, like, oh, yeah, I can see how you might interpret it that way. And I can understand that it's an immediate like, well, that's not real. And you were just wrong. There's nothing about the church that, you know, it. That was a it. She's making it, I think, seem like a personal failure on behalf of Layla, which I think it absolutely is not.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:15] It has a bit of the energy of like, oh, you didn't see the 1978 friends where they talked about the cistern. That's on you, babe. You should have known that as a child.

John Dehlin [02:45:24] It's one of those weird, compartmentalizing parts of Mormonism. Because if you go up to any active LDS person and say, do you believe that Mormons are superior to everyone else in the world? They're going to be outraged at how ridiculous and offensive that question is. And 100% will say, oh no, that's. That's a horrible question. Why would you even ask that? And yet they'll get up in sacrament meeting and so. And so left the church and I'm just so sad for them. And, or, or so and so died. And so they're gonna have the gospel to, you know, help them through it. But I feel so bad for all the other people in the world that don't have the gospel.

Guest [02:46:04] Possible.

John Dehlin [02:46:05] Like, don't we all agree that we were all taught that everyone else who's not active LDS is inferior?

Samantha Shelley [02:46:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:46:13] And yet we would all have denied that if we were asked point blank. If we.

Haley Rawl [02:46:17] Well, even in ways like, I've thought about this a lot with. I mean, you, you see it in only get married to a return missionary. Babysitters. Your babysitter should be Mormon. If she's a Mormon girl, then you're safe. That's literally teaching people. I mean, I don't know if I was the only one who internalized that, but it was. Was like, oh, they're Mormon, they're safe, they're good. They went on a mission. They're safe, they're good. And then I get out on a mission and I'm looking around and I'm like, that this doesn't feel like a good metric anymore because these are all just people with, you know, they're just people going on a mission. Doesn't make anyone morally superior, obviously.

John Dehlin [02:46:51] Only data. Return missionary.

Haley Rawl [02:46:53] Exactly. And I feel like that kind of thinking Even if it's not like we Mormons think we're better than everyone else. Again, that's why it frustrates me so much that Macy is unwilling to. To. To live at least a little bit in that nuance of, like. And then there's a clip of her right after that, and she's like, well, not all Mormon men. Because, like, my. My husband is, like, so great, and it's like, that's awesome. And I truly. And he does seem like an awesome Mormon guy. I don't think he's a bad person because he's Mormon. And how is that preventing you from seeing that there is a real problem with Mormon men and hypocrisy. Those two things can also exist at once.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:28] Wants.

Haley Rawl [02:47:29] But it's too. It's too damaging to her worldview to even go there. And I think that's when people in these high demand, rigid structures, they lose a little bit of their empathy because if they go there and they empathize, all of a sudden their whole worldview is. Is threatened. And so they're just unwilling to show, like, sometimes what I think is somewhat basic, like, compassion and validation.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:56] It's interesting the points that cause friction because she was at the gay pride event being like, I'm an ally and the church is wrong about this, you know, kind of fundamental thing. But then that right there, like, got to her.

Haley Rawl [02:48:09] Interesting. Yeah, I didn't even think about that. Like, some things she's willing to say that, but then other things are just, like, completely not.

Guest [02:48:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:18] Wait, she's compartmentalized.

Brooklyn Alden [02:48:23] Yeah. No, you guys are just totally, like, hitting the nail on the head. Of all the reasons I wanted to include this clip, it just stood out to me so much because initially I was, like, so thrilled and, like, jumped on my seat, so excited that Layla brought up such an important point of analyzing Mormonism. I was, like, so excited. Oh, let's get into this conversation. I totally agree. And then after being so excited, I was, like, so crushed when Macy just immediately, like, kind of squashed on.

Macy On The Mormon Question

John Dehlin [02:48:49] But.

Brooklyn Alden [02:48:49] And I totally agree with the word condescending. And it just felt like a bit rude to me. And I imagine Layla felt the same way of just like, shut down and like, okay, you know, I guess my point's not bad. They're like, I just felt bad for her that moment, and it was just like a high high for me and

Guest [02:49:04] then a low low.

Brooklyn Alden [02:49:06] And yeah, just found it frustrating. And I also just found it, once again, so predictable of Macy to be giving, like, the most basic Mormon Response as she did with the like, oh, she shouldn't have left the church, this is why we don't drink. Like she's just giving the most, most basic Mormon responses while also trying to act like I live the best version of the church, but she's really just living like the most mainstream version of the church to me and then also trying to be an ally. I don't know, I find her really confusing and that moment really annoyed me from her.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:49:35] Yeah, I feel like Macy's in a really precarious position. I think she's acting as like the most about of the women. She's acting as like a missionary to them while also trying to be like the cool Mormon who's not going to judge her friends for leaving too much. Maybe just like a tiny bit. And I think I, I imagine this is probably a really tricky part about like social dynamics with, with friend groups that how are mixed Mormon and mixed ex Mormon mixed progressive Mormon. Like there is a little bit of this tension I think between like Mormons and there's a huge tension between Mormons and post Mormons within Utah, but in this, this friend group in particular. And I also think like thinking of Macy's role as the missionary not just to her friends but to the world especially where they see that the show has taken off. She's the one who is going to be like standing in for what Mormon doctrine looks like. And I imagine she feels a lot of pressure to make Mormonism seem as appealing as possible and to like in these moments be like no, I promise we're not too weird. Like I know that I stand for this and like because I stand for this I have to show that it's actually fine. And I think she probably has these like these pre planned moments of like yeah, I'm going to, going to, to be an ally. And I would imagine that that may be a part of the discussion based on like, like Chase has, has said on Instagram that like all of the women are, are maga except for Layla Miranda and I, I wonder if, if that played a role in them and them discussing this, trying to like take a stand in, in a small way but in a somewhat significant way to be able to talk about like legislature online on this show. But that was, that was pre planned, that was decided. And so she's taking like calculated risks I think is when she's going to kind of push back against Mormonism and when she's not kind of thinking about like how the perception of Mormonism is going to be and how it's going to be received. And I imagine that's just a weird, difficult position for her to be in and a lot of pressure she probably feels to not make Mormons look too weird.

Haley Rawl [02:51:34] I also think, having read her book. Yeah. To offer her, like, understanding of her worldview. She really has gone through, like, really, really intense things. And most of that was when she was not living the Mormon rules, when she was having sex outside of marriage, when she was drinking. So I really can't understand how now she's found safety and she's found security and structure and stability, particularly after enduring really extreme traumas. I can, I. I sympathize with her finding safety there. And that defensiveness is so familiar to me. And that's without having kind of that same arc that she has had.

John Dehlin [02:52:17] Yeah. Yeah. I will say there's got to be social benefits to the church, costs and benefits to the church encouraging this Mormon superiority amongst its members neighbors. I also know that one of the top 10 reasons people leave the church is when they start traveling around or move outside of Utah. They get corporate jobs or just meet neighbors in other states and they realize, whoa, those Muslims are better than me. Or those, those Sikhs or Hindus are, like, way more moral or ethical than me. Many a person has come to me saying they had a faith crisis when they realized that they're were large groups of people who were more moral or ethical than the Mormons they grew up with. So it's tricky for the church. We're bumping up on three hours. I've got this Layla clip. Layla getting a hair appointment. Should we play that really quick? And we'll start thinking about our closing thoughts. But let's go ahead and since we've been talking about Layla, let's go ahead and play that clip. Clip.

Layla Getting A Hair Appointment

Guest [02:53:22] I converted to the church, actually, so LDF church when I was 16, but obviously didn't turn out that great when I got pregnant so fast after moving here. Are you still lda? I don't remember the last time I even, like, went to church. I still don't have my records removed or anything like that. I haven't, like, made that final step. But there's a lot of things I don't resonate with when it comes to the church, obviously, especially, like some history parts that are not okay. There is an old scripture in the Book of Mormon that states that black skin is a curse. It's something that I'm aware of now that I wasn't aware of when I first converted. But I try to look at the Church's grace and the situation. Because they did renounce those teachings about 10 years ago.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:54:02] Did they?

John Dehlin [02:54:04] So I was like 10 years ago? Do you mean 1978? And then I realized she means the Gospel Topics essay on race in the priesthood where the church did basically threw God under the bus and said all those super racist things that Brigham Young and others said, from Brigham Young to basically Thomas S. Monson were the philosophies or ideas of men. They were products of their time.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:29] Still never been a black apostle.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:54:31] Is that what Dallin H. Oaks, he gave like a presentation. I should look this up before here, coming here, here. But like a couple years ago it was, I guess it was probably 2018. Right. Because it was like the, the anniversary of when the priest ban was lifted. Yeah, yeah, he said something there. I don't think he renounced anything though.

John Dehlin [02:54:55] No, they haven't. They haven't ever given a formal apology to, to black members and former members for the priesthood and temple ban on black people. They've stopped short of that. But in the Race in the priesthood Gospel topics essay they do state that all the prior theories around black people being less valiant in the pre existence and that's why they were given black skin. All the cursed cane garbage which by the way is still in the the Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham.

Haley Rawl [02:55:27] Well, and that scripture she references is still in the Book of Mormon, like of right. Because I was looking this up. I did a breakdown episode on this. So I was like, did they renounce that? I was kind of having the same thing. And I didn't find that Gospel Topics essay. But I did see something that in the current Come Follow Me manual they address this very briefly and they say something like the, the curse was separation from God and the sign of the curse was dark skin. And we don't know why that's the sign, but they're not correlated.

John Dehlin [02:55:59] And it's super dumb because the Book of Mormon says skin of blackness. Yeah, right.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:56:02] Which everyone knows is a metaphor

Samantha Shelley [02:56:07] we had access to.

Haley Rawl [02:56:09] I did. I found that back to the exact Layla moment. I found that moment interesting. And it's like, you know, obviously as an ex Mormon woman, I'm kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'm like, oh. Like, I mean it's fine. Like if it, you know, I want her to find her peace and however she does. And again, I'm not saying like, I think it's good that the church is slowly amending racist policies and doctrines and it's Interesting to see her, like, open up just a tiny bit about something incredibly significant and then kind of quickly be like, but, you know, I'll give the church grace here, which, again, is her prerogative.

John Dehlin [02:56:48] But she's basically all out, but, like, like a. A pinky toenail. Right.

Haley Rawl [02:56:53] Like, I think she's probably pretty out.

John Dehlin [02:56:55] Yeah, she's out.

Haley Rawl [02:56:56] Yeah, I do think she is. But I mean, I think she still maybe feels this sense of needing to be like, I'm not trying to call Macy an active Mormon racist. Or, you know, like, there's still this. And that's what's interesting about these dynamics, is any ex Mormon knows what it's like to have a conversation with a Mormon and something comes up and you kind of have to tow this line of like, yeah, they did. You know, like, you. There's a certain point where you just kind of have to be like, you kind of have to let some things go in. In certain company. At least I do.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:57:28] And I would also imagine, like, there is such a stigma for people leaving the church, being angry and bitter and, like, going on podcasts and things like that. And so I imagine Layla's feeling like, I don't want to also become that trope. I mean, I don't know if that's what she's feeling, but I would imagine also. Also, like, the pressure of a black woman of not being seen as aggressive or not being seen as angry. She probably feels a lot of that weight also to not. Yeah. Be seen as, like, the angry experiment who's going to be hypercritical. I think that's one thing that, like, Mormons are the most frustrated about. You know, you can leave the church, but you can't leave the church alone. I think that stigma even applies to some ex Mormons as well. Like, oh, man, you have ex Mormons that are normal people, and then you have ex Mormons who, like, won't shut up about it. And they're. Is still a divide even among ex Mormons on. On how you respond to these things and how forgiving you can be to the church and how much grace you can give to the church. And they. I think there is a lot of tension there. Or even use the term ex Mormon, which is. Which is interesting. It seems like Jesse's the only person who has taken on the term, the label ex Mormon and is comfortable with that. And the other women are much more hesitant to use that and take on that Persona.

John Dehlin [02:58:37] Yeah, but they're almost all out.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:58:39] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [02:58:39] I think I also wonder how much of that is production because the show's called Secret lives of Mormon Wives. I wonder if they're like, oh, you got to kind of pretend to be somewhat Mormon. Yeah, that's the title of the show. It can't just be Macy.

"The Book of Mormon: Season 3 Review

John Dehlin [02:58:50] Yeah, well, we didn't even cover all the stuff we planned to cover today for episodes one through five. So we have to have at least one more episode, maybe two. I want to. I want to give you all a chance to kind of come up with some. Any closing thoughts you have. And you also feel free to plug anything you want to plug. I will just say I'm surprised at how, like, I. I didn't watch season two. I was just. I was kind of just not in a place where I was feeling it. So it's been weird to re engage with season three. Having missed most of season two and feeling surprised at how deep the. The treatment of important Mormon topics is in season three. It is legit. It's. It's covering topics that so many of us have wanted to be part of a national conversation for decades. And it takes freaking. What was his name? Peanut butter cheese slice.

Brooklyn Alden [02:59:52] Yes.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:59:53] Our bacon friends. I hope you stay tuned for.

Haley Rawl [02:59:57] We're gonna drag this out for you.

John Dehlin [03:00:00] Thank you. Yeah. Like, it's taken the secret lives of Mormon wives to bring to national and international consciousness topics that. That we wanted to see for 150, 200 years. So anyway, let me give each of you a chance to give final closing thoughts and to plug whatever you want to plug. But I do want to thank all of you. You for your hard work in making today possible. Brooklyn, I don't mean to single you album, but it's been so fun. What do y' all think, panel? Brooklyn, thumbs up, Thumbs up. Thumbs down. What? Alyssa, Thumbs up. Thumbs up. Brooklyn.

Closing Thoughts and Plugs

Haley Rawl [03:00:39] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:00:40] Alyssa, thumbs up. Yeah, double thumbs up. Samantha. Yep. So, Brooklyn, I think you're in.

Haley Rawl [03:00:46] So you into mom talk.

Brooklyn Alden [03:00:50] Thanks, guys.

Alyssa Whitbeck [03:00:50] Yeah, lots.

Brooklyn Alden [03:00:51] Lots of thumbs up for all of you. So I just enjoy being able to be an audience to the super important conversation, and I just think you're all super smart women, and I love having these conversations. Just reiterating again, John. That's why I think it's important we have these episodes. And when did these conversations ever get a bigger platform than being on a Hulu series? So, yeah, super grateful to all of you guys for being so smart and saying all the right things. Things.

John Dehlin [03:01:20] Well, we couldn't do without you, Brooklyn. So thanks for all you do. And it is weird that all these talk shows are talking about like the sexual scandal or the relationship stuff. But there aren't many really hitting these deep thing themes, so I'm glad we're doing it Anyway. Samantha, closing thoughts and plugs.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:44] I think I'm just excited to continue dissecting this. I feel like there's a lot of other great themes coming up that will be interesting. I don't really have anything to plug. My YouTube channel's up on the shelf. My substack. There's an essay about the movie Baby Girl on there that just feels so relevant to a lot of this Jesse stuff. So if you're interested in that.

John Dehlin [03:02:05] Don't you do coaching? You still do coaching, right?

Haley Rawl [03:02:07] Yes, I do.

Samantha Shelley [03:02:08] Faith transitions coaching still.

John Dehlin [03:02:09] How do they. How do people contact you about that?

Samantha Shelley [03:02:12] I mean, you can find me anywhere and it will be linked, but it's

John Dehlin [03:02:14] samanthashelleycoaching.com Shelley with an EY.

Samantha Shelley [03:02:17] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:02:18] I'm your hype man.

Samantha Shelley [03:02:19] You always remind me of the coaching,

Haley Rawl [03:02:21] and I'm like,

John Dehlin [03:02:24] all right, if you need a good life coach, Samantha's got a lot to offer. Anyway, thanks for coming. Also, thanks for helping us with the production. You were important part of today's production.

Samantha Shelley [03:02:34] I let you down.

John Dehlin [03:02:34] No, you didn't. You did great. Thank you.

Samantha Shelley [03:02:36] Yeah.

Girls Camp: Breakdown of the Season 3

John Dehlin [03:02:37] All right, Haley, plug away. Yeah. And summarize away way.

Haley Rawl [03:02:42] Yeah. I'll just say I'm excited to continue this. This is my Super Bowl. It's my favorite thing to do. I told John. He's like, thanks for coming. I'm like, it takes very little to get me to come and talk about this topic.

John Dehlin [03:02:52] Maybe. So happy. Yes.

Haley Rawl [03:02:54] Like, please ask me.

John Dehlin [03:02:55] We got Haley.

Samantha Shelley [03:02:57] Yeah. I get for you.

Haley Rawl [03:02:58] I love doing this. I love doing this with you all. So thank you. Thank you, John, for providing this platform. You can find me at Girls Camp podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. I also have a YouTube channel. I actually have my breakdown of the season. I touch on similar things. Kind of get into other things as well. Today, Tuesday. That goes live tomorrow. So if you have not yet had enough bacon grease, I hope to see you there over on my YouTube channel to talk further about the secret lives of Mormon wives.

John Dehlin [03:03:26] And you've interviewed how many of them so far?

Haley Rawl [03:03:28] I've interviewed Jesse only, but I'm in talks of interviewing two other cast members.

John Dehlin [03:03:35] Fun.

Alyssa Whitbeck [03:03:35] Yeah.

Haley Rawl [03:03:36] So excited to.

John Dehlin [03:03:37] Anytime they just ignore me.

Haley Rawl [03:03:40] Yeah, it's nice to be in the same demographic.

John Dehlin [03:03:43] I think get help or do a better job.

Haley Rawl [03:03:46] No, no, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [03:03:48] Or know the subject matter way better.

Samantha Shelley [03:03:50] Watch the show.

John Dehlin [03:03:54] Good point. Anyway. All right, Amy, come back, will you?

Haley Rawl [03:03:58] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:03:59] And Alyssa, you. You. You brought so much structure and, and you made the slides and all the stuff. So final thoughts. Alyssa.

Mormon on the Shelter

Alyssa Whitbeck [03:04:08] Yeah, I mean, love this topic, Love this show. I think we're seeing, you know, so much of this season is really, unfortunately showing, like, these relationships evolving. And I think Mormonism is a through line, unfortunately. And so I think it's really interesting to kind of see how that's playing out and playing out for everybody.

John Dehlin [03:04:24] Did you say unfortunately? I mean, like you meant fortunately?

Alyssa Whitbeck [03:04:28] I mean, negatives of Mormonism are unfortunate, but the. The relevance for us is very fortunate.

John Dehlin [03:04:35] Are we a. Are we a narcissistic people? Don't we love to see ourselves.

Alyssa Whitbeck [03:04:38] We love to see ourselves represented.

Haley Rawl [03:04:40] Oh, yeah, it's the best. I'm like, people are understand dirty soda culture. I mean, what more could you want?

John Dehlin [03:04:48] Not much more. Anyway, y' all are awesome. Thanks to everyone for joining us today. Thanks also to Julia for her work, post production and comments, show notes, moderating, and all the things. Thanks to all our viewers, all the people who made great comments. We really appreciate it. Also thanks to our donors that make all this possible. We couldn't do it without you. Seriously. Our ad revenue is a small fraction of what keeps us alive. So thanks to everyone who donates. If you value this content, go donate to Zelp on the shelf. Go donate to Girls Camp. How do they donate to Alyssa?

Alyssa Whitbeck [03:05:27] I don't know. Venmo.

Mormon Stories: Secret Lives of Mormon Women

Haley Rawl [03:05:28] Meg on the screen, Words and Venmo

Guest [03:05:32] or what is it?

Haley Rawl [03:05:33] What was that list?

John Dehlin [03:05:34] Likes words Venmo.

Brooklyn Alden [03:05:35] What is it?

Alyssa Whitbeck [03:05:35] It's Alyssa Whitbeck. Venmo. So, yeah, Venmo. Alyssa, find me a cop. Love it.

John Dehlin [03:05:40] Brooklyn. I don't know what Brooklyn's Venmo is, but while you're at it, you can also go to mormonstories.org with any money you have left after ven moing. Everyone else here, go to MormonStories.org donate, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor, and we'll be able to continue paying these women for their great work and also providing you with more content of value. So we're gonna do a part two.

Alyssa Whitbeck [03:06:05] How can we not if not more happening?

John Dehlin [03:06:08] Possibly three. So you guys vote if you want just no more, let us know. We'll probably do it anyway. If you want more than one more, let us know in the comments. We'll. We'll do more. Anyway, thanks again, Alyssa, Haley, Samantha and Brooklyn. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Be bridge makers and peace builders. Did I say that right? No. Bridge peacemakers and bridge builders, take care. Enjoy secret lives of Mormon wives on Hulu, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.