John Dehlin [00:00:21] Grab a Pepsi. Zero sugar today. Hello everyone, and welcome to the Mormon News Podcast. It is Friday, 7-3-20, and I like to say the Mormon News Podcast is where Megan from Generally Unquotable, explains the week's news to me. John de Lynn, on the fly. We are live streaming as we try to do every Friday. At least that's our current experiment. It seems like people like this show so far and the headlines, the the teasers for today are Ras Band's Big Claim and Dangerous Revelation. We actually have many news stories for you, so we're really excited to dive in. And of course, we have Megan Hayes from Generally Unquotable along with our livestream. Hey, Megan.

The Mormon News Podcast: Week 3

Guest 7 [00:01:11] Hi. Happy Friday.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] Happy Friday. I always text you like Thursday morning saying, is the news good enough this week for a show? And you wrote me back. And I'm like, yep, it's good enough for a show. So take it away. Megan.

Guest 7 [00:01:30] Oh, well, yes, we have a lot to talk about this week. First of all, Ronald Rasband said some things that I guess people heard in the 70s, but I hadn't heard until recently when he said it. And so we're going to talk about his claims. He's going back to very orthodox, I think, things that maybe the church has been trying to shy away from. Then we're actually, I added a story in this morning. We're going to in between Ras Band and the LDS guard who left his garments on the prison floor, we're going to talk about an active member, Pono, and the controversy surrounding him. Did you have a comment, John?

John Dehlin [00:02:07] No, no, no. I'm all ears. I'm all ears.

Guest [00:02:10] Yeah.

Guest 7 [00:02:11] And then we're going to talk about the 55 new missions. They were actually announced last October, but they just went into effect two days ago. So we'll mention that we're going to talk about someone who started a fire because God told him to. We're going to talk about a really expensive window in the Nauvoo Visitor Center. And then a couple of extra stories, Virgil Larsen and a woman who has gone viral on TikTok for testing churches. And we're going to see how the Mormon Church fared in that test.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] All right, Fun. I'll just ask everyone really quickly. Please subscribe and like to this channel. Thanks to our donors that make it possible. You can always donate to support this show@mormonstories.org donate. You can support our legal fund@mormonstories.org legal and of course, we also want you to subscribe and like and support generally unquotable as well. Right, Megan?

Guest 7 [00:03:07] Yes. I actually put out a video this week because my husband ended up in the hospital.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Oh, no.

Guest 7 [00:03:13] And I. He's just got home and last night and he's on the mend. But I had such an outpouring of support from my listeners. It was amazing.

John Dehlin [00:03:26] I'm happy to hear that. Well, amazing. I wish Donnie well.

Guest 7 [00:03:29] Yes, thank you.

Dr. Bruce Howell's Calling in the LDS Church

John Dehlin [00:03:31] All right, well, let's go ahead and begin. What's our first story?

Guest 7 [00:03:35] So this is just a quick update from last week. We talked about Dr. Bruce Howell, the Orem dentist who allegedly manipulated and sexually abused his high school intern. And now we know that his calling at the time was elders quorum ministering secretary. And then his previous callings were a missionary and the executive secretary. So those are his known callings in the church. I just wanted to give that update because we mentioned it last week, but we weren't aware of his calling at the time.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] Nice follow up. I. I was wondering whether a prominent dentist in Utah county would be a bishop or in a bishopric, but it sounds like we don't have that information yet.

Guest 7 [00:04:17] No, those are the ones we know about.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Okay. All right. Well, I hope there's justice because that story was disturbing.

Guest 7 [00:04:26] Yeah, yeah, it was pretty bad.

Elder Ras Band spoke at the 2026 US Freedom Festival

John Dehlin [00:04:29] All right, what's Raspan got for us?

Guest 7 [00:04:32] So they had a. I tried to find video of this, and it was a live video, which I didn't watch. And then they haven't republished video, but Ras Band, Elder Ras Band at the BYU Marriott center gave a speech talk. I don't know how official capacity this is, but it was at BYU and talked about the US it was for the Freedom Festival. And the Lord preserved the US for the great unfolding of the gospel was the overarching theme of his message. And he said some really interesting things.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] So we're gonna just read through them.

Guest 7 [00:05:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah. There wasn't a lot of video, sadly. Okay, so this just says it was at the BYU Marriott center on Sunday, June 28. He was the keynote speaker for the 2026 patriotic service. He said this promised land is a stepping stone to life eternal, to the presence of God the Father and Jesus Christ, if we live faithfully. That is why it is called the Promised Land. That is why we Love our country. That is why we love our Lord and Savior.

John Dehlin [00:05:40] Okay. Very patriotic. It's also very on brand.

Guest 7 [00:05:44] Right.

Guest [00:05:44] Well.

Guest 7 [00:05:44] And this land being a stepping stone, I thought was just a weird, I don't know, just a strange way to say that. So then he went on to say, in the Garden of Eden, in what we today, we consider the heartland of America, God the Father and his beloved son visited Adam and Eve and taught them the gospel, said Elder Rasband.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] And I mean, that's. That is Mormon doctrine that the Guard of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri. And the Book of Mormon musical skewers that. Yeah. Well, what do you. What was interesting about that to you, Megan?

Guest 7 [00:06:21] Well, I just think this is stuff that they don't always put on display. They don't bring it out because they know it's kind of weird. And he's so proud of it. I don't think I understood that Adam and Eve were in Jackson County, Missouri, until I was teenager or an adult. It wasn't something I. That was talked about a lot.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] Well, maybe that's why they didn't make the video public. But, yeah, I was. I was absolutely taught that growing up. And the whole Adam on diamond thing, I understand it, maybe we're going to cover this, but Joseph Smith had this propensity when he saw something to just like identify it as something that was ancient. So the classic example is when he sees these bones and he's. And he's. I think it was Zion's camp, but I'm not sure. But he basically sees these bones and he's like, that was Zelp, the white knee fight, you know, or Zealth the white Lamanite, something like that. And. And yeah, he was in some part of Missouri and he's like, this is where Adam and Eve had the Garden of Eden. It's so beautiful. And everybody's looking around going, really? Okay, that's cool. So that's. That's how Joseph Smith kind of rolled.

Guest 7 [00:07:33] Yeah. And we're just holding on tight to it. You know, they don't talk about it all the time, but when they do, they really go for it. They're very committed.

Noah's Land of the Chosen People

Speaker E [00:07:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Okay, so we're gonna do some Pangea speak, it looks like here.

Guest 7 [00:07:43] Yeah, this part was the one that I hadn't heard before. So their posterity eventually became so wicked that the Lord.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] This is Rasband.

Guest 7 [00:07:52] Yes, this is Rasband. So this is a further quote. This I screenshot of this right. From the Church News. Their posterity eventually became so wicked that the Lord cleans the Earth with water, the surface fractured into great continents, separated by oceans, all to protect what was destined to be the promised land which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people. Now, of course, I knew that the promised land is the U.S. you know, when I was a member, and that it was preserved for us. But I had never heard anyone say that the flood that happened during Noah's time floated the us away and so that it could be preserved and be separate. I don't, I, when I talked about it before. Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] The gods up there going, my people are too wicked. What do we do? I know, let's cause volcanoes and destruction, you know, and separate the land. It's also weird because it, I mean, I'm sure you know this, but it basically implies, number one, that massive, you know, continental sized land masses can be shifted in a matter of hours. Because if Adam and Eve were alive and Noah were alive, and it's a 6,000 year earth and we have the genealogy, as I understand it, from Noah, from, from Adam to Noah and then from Noah to like, I don't know, Abraham or Moses or whatever, like it means that these land masses shifted in a matter of seconds or minutes or hours, and somehow it didn't cause global catastrophe. This is just weird science. And that God shifts land masses in response to, quote, the wickedness of the children that he created.

Guest 7 [00:09:55] Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Well, and then for him to put all of these children on Earth and then they get so wicked, so then he causes a flood. Was that the moment when he was like, ooh, maybe if I move this land over here, I can preserve it for the better people? It's so strange. I just, I had never heard that correlation before. I knew that the flood was because of the wicked people, and I knew that the US Was called the Promised land, but I didn't realize that those two were connected in the sense that God had manipulated the land at that same time. I had never heard that before. I had some people comment that they heard it in the 70s, but growing up in the 80s, I had not heard that.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] And my best way to make sense of this, because I like to make sense of Joseph Smith when I can, especially in context. He was in love with the Old Testament. He was in love with the pure blood of Israel. He literally wanted his followers to be somehow grafted into the pure blood of Israel. That's what our patriarchal blessings are all about. What lineage are we from? What tribe are we from? Are we from Ephraim? Are we from Manasseh? Is it Jacob 5 in the book of Mormon? That's all about the vineyard and the pruning and how the gentiles get pruned into God's chosen people. And my listeners who are Jewish or who are formerly Jewish always call me out to be careful when I talk about this because on the one hand, this teaching that God has a chosen people with blood lineage can be interpreted as just faced value, racist because it implies that Asians aren't God's chosen people, the Chinese or Japanese, that Western Europeans or Africans aren't God's chosen people. Blood lineage. We already know that Joseph Smith could not write scripture without including dark skin as a curse from God because of wickedness, even premortal wickedness. So we know the Africans are, you know, and even Native Americans aren't necessarily God's chosen people, depending on, you know, how you, how you interpret things. But the idea that, that God had his blood lineage chosen people in the Middle east, you know, one or two thousand years before Jesus is born, it's a very racist teaching. Now when, when Jews write me to express concern about that framing, they say, john, Jews take that teaching not as a matter of pride, but as a matter of deep responsibility. Then I want to say cool reverence. I'm not saying Jews are racist. I'm not saying Jews believe a racist thing. But it is weird that Joseph wanted to import what is on its face a very elitist, racist teaching. And of course, he's not finding that Europe is the chosen land or Asia is the chosen land or, you know, anything else. It's where he happens to live. Right?

Guest [00:13:14] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] And, you know, so it's kind of weird and it's kind of problematic because it implies God plays favorites, that God has a preferred blood lineage and that God has a preferred chosen country in the modern era, out of 100 and what, 50 countries. He's like, America, America, which then leads. I think open leads provides an opening for kind of Christian nationalism and even white Christian nationalism, which I think is the next slide.

Guest 7 [00:13:53] Yes. Yeah, that's a great segue. So this is also from the Church News. In a seventh 1975 letter, Washington wrote, A kind of destiny has thrown me upon this service. I shall hope that my undertaking of it is designed to answer some good purpose. That good purpose, said Elder Rasband, was the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In 1820, the restoration was set in motion after God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared in vision and spoke to Joseph Smith.

Plan B for 2026: America and the Gospel

John Dehlin [00:14:23] What's your reaction to that. Megan, what do you think? What was interesting about that to you?

Guest 7 [00:14:28] Well, first of all, which first vision are we talking about? Elder Rasband, which is what I wanted to ask, because he said God the Father and Jesus Christ, which, if you go to the first account written in Joseph Smith's own hand, it's just the Lord. So that was my first question. And like you said, like, why is. Why is God playing favorites? And what does it mean about the people who were born in this country, God's favorite country, versus the people who weren't? If you believe that.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] Yeah, yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] I'll just add that it's not hard to diagnose Joseph Smith as kind of a grandiose. These are harsh words, but it's hard if you're looking at just his life. If you read John Turner's book Joseph Smith and the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet, or Fawn Brody's, no man Knows My history, it's kind of impossible not to diagnose Joseph Smith as kind of a grandiose narcissist, because he really does. I mean, not only does he end up having himself anointed as king of the world, and I'm not making that up, but he believes that he's the person next to Christ in importance for the history of humankind. He'll say things like, even Christ couldn't do some of the things that I've been able to do. And so Joseph comes across as the ultimate narcissist. And then he wants the whole church to revolve around him. And then he wants America to evolve around the church, which evolves around him. And then he wants the world to evolve around America, which revolves around the church, which revolves around him. And so, of course, America exists to bring forth the gospel that puts Joseph Smith front and center as the culminating figure in the importance of humanity. And if you just talk to other people who have never been Mormon, they're like, what? Who? Who? But it's weird that RAS band in 2026 is promoting this narrative that the human history Revolves around Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church and America.

Guest 7 [00:17:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] Especially at a time when America seems to be causing so much global problems and unrest and distress. I, I'm. I apologize. I'm kind of ranting and rambling, Megan.

Guest 7 [00:17:49] But no, no, I agree.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] Reaction?

Guest 7 [00:17:52] Nope, I definitely agree. I don't. Because so many people don't even know what Mormonism is. If this was God's grand plan through Joseph Smith and the United States, he's not doing the best job at getting everyone to join.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] And no, in fact, because the Mormon Church's growth is slowing, we're not becoming a higher percentage of the human population at this point in 2026, we're actually becoming a declining percentage of the human population, which means that over time, God, Mormon, Heavenly Father becomes more and more of a failure over time. Unless you want to do blame reversal and say it's the. It's the world that's wicked. And that's why Mormons are actually a shrinking percentage of the world's population. But it's just, it's such a unfortunate. You know, I would want our modern leaders to be wise and sophisticated and intelligent, and they're just, they're just rehashing the old uber patriotic, racist kind of white supremacy kind of theologies, you know?

Guest 7 [00:19:11] Yes. Well, and it's one of the reasons that people don't like them, that people feel offended by Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] Yeah.

Guest 7 [00:19:20] Because they stand up all the time and say, we're the only true church. We're the church for America. America was built for us. People are going to be offended by that.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] Yeah. Because it basically says we're better than everyone. We're better than all the other churches, we're better than all the other religions. We're better than all the other countries. And it's this little group of white European descendants who happen to live in Idaho, Utah, and Arizona. It's just so weird. I will say I do love our country. I do think there's a lot of great things about our history and our teachings. And I think there's a lot of great things about Mormonism and even the Mormon Church. I just don't think white Christian Mormon nationalism is one of those things.

Guest 7 [00:20:12] Yeah. So here's the next little bit from the church news of the U.S. elder Rasband said, here our Lord intended for liberty to take hold so that agency might thrive. Here, the gospel would put down roots and then branch out with truths to bless millions by divine design. It has always been so.

Elder Rasband on Moral Agency

John Dehlin [00:20:32] Okay. What do you think, Megan?

Guest 7 [00:20:35] Well, if this country was saved for liberty and agency. How does he under. How does he understand the enslaved people who were brought here? Is that liberty and agency? What about, you know, women not being able to vote for quite some time? Was God just slow in the agency or what? Or was the agency and liberty just for the white folks and the men?

John Dehlin [00:21:09] That's really powerful. And my understanding is that Joseph Smith came down on both sides of the slavery question, depending on, you know, what time of his life. But my understanding is Brigham Young was okay with slavery. My understanding is Brigham Young had slaves himself and that at least during certain time periods, the Utah Territory under Brigham Young allowed slavery. So, yeah, and now that shouldn't be a surprise because the Bible, as I understand it, condones and allows slavery. So the other thing, Megan, that, that I see here, when I see him talk about agency and wanting agency to thrive, when it comes to the Mormon Church, the LDS Church, I think they struggle with agency. And what I mean by that is I don't believe there's real spiritual or psychological agency without informed consent, without all the information. And the whole reason I started Mormon stories in 2005 was because in 2001 I discovered that the church had withheld, knowingly withheld, all sorts of information from me. Like the Joseph Smith married 14 year olds, like the Joseph Smith married 12 women who already married other men, living men. Or that the Book of Abraham was a, was not a translation of Egyptian papyri as the church taught me, or that Joseph Smith was a treasure digger who used a seer stone in a hat to find buried treasure and then turn around and use that stuff to allegedly translate the golden plates that it turns out weren't even in the room when he was allegedly translating. So, like, there's all this Mormon history that was withheld from me so that I couldn't make an informed decision about should I serve a mission, should I marry in the temple, should I give 10% of my income to the church for life? Like the church intentionally and knowingly withheld the information from me and from the world and from generations of members because they didn't want people to have all the information to make an informed decision, which to me is agency. And so whether it's withholding factual information or excommunicating truth tellers or silencing people or frankly, lawsuits where they're trying to shut down, in my opinion, people who speak the truth, it, it doesn't seem like the church is really that into agency. Megan. I don't know. What do you think?

Guest 7 [00:23:52] No, I don't Think so. I think they really probably love David Bednar's new moral agency, where the only choice you really have is whether or not you follow Mormon God or not.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] Or David Bednar. Yeah, yeah. Moral agency is obeying David Bednar. Okay, what else we got here?

Rasband: Who Will Teach Truth in the Mormon Church?

Guest 7 [00:24:10] So he then said, if religion is not there to help with shaping character and mediating hard times, who will be, he asked. Who will teach honesty, gratitude, forgiveness, and patience? Who will exhibit charity, compassion, and kindness for the forgotten and the downtrodden?

John Dehlin [00:24:26] All right, what's wrong with that, Megan?

Guest 7 [00:24:29] I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Necessary. I mean, religion can teach those things. I guess the thing wrong with it would be that it's just so narrow. If you're not a member of the church, can you be a good person? Absolutely. If you're a member of a different church, can you be a good person? Absolutely. So to narrow that down, to say that outside of religion or maybe even Christianity, I don't know how specific he was being because I can't listen to the whole thing. Like, of course there are good people outside of that all over the world, not just in the US

John Dehlin [00:25:05] I was reflecting on my life as a Mormon, and I realized the Brethren have shown who they are for two centuries. Whether it's fighting the civil rights movement, opposing the civil rights movement, being for segregation, fighting the Equal Rights Amendment, fighting women's equality, conversion therapy for LGBT people, hiding its history, like covering up the Mountain Meadows massacre, lying about post manifesto polygamy for like 20, 30 years, like, the Brethren have shown us who they are. And yet I was such a devout, obedient, faithful Mormon that was like, worried, like, I can't lie. I can't ever say a mean thing. I can't ever have a doubt because I believe the words they were saying. But somehow I wasn't paying attention to their actions. I wasn't paying attention to their behavior because their behavior didn't match their rhetoric. And I think part of that is they hid their behavior. Again, going back to this idea of not really valuing agency. But when I think about it, is there some contradiction, Megan, with Rasband saying, who will teach honesty? Honesty, like it's Mormon church leaders that we're going to look to as honest people who have for, you know, people who perpetuated the SEC fraud where they created 20 whatever shell companies to hide their wealth from the membership, or hid their history for 200 years, or lied about post manifesto polygamy, or excommunicated Oliver Cowdery when he said Joseph Smith is in an adulterous affair with Fanny Alger. Like, where have we learned. How have Mormon Church leaders over time displayed honesty? Is that where we're going to learn honesty from. Or forgiveness? How forgiving was the Mormon Church with Lavina Fielding Anderson, who was one of the September 6th excommunicated women who never stopped attending church, who stayed, as I understand it, attending the Mormon Church for the better part of 30 years until she died. And yet when she asked to be rebaptized, the Mormon Church said no.

Guest [00:27:39] Right.

Guest 7 [00:27:39] And then they posthumously baptized her.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] They probably did. Yeah. They probably allowed that to happen.

Guest 7 [00:27:45] I think that came out in the news.

John Dehlin [00:27:47] Okay. Oh, she was. She was baptized for the dead. Re. Baptized for the dead.

Guest 7 [00:27:51] I think so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:53] Or forgiveness. Like how forgiving or, you know, charitable or compassionate Is the Mormon Church suing me in the Open Stories Foundation? Lying about, in my opinion, my intentions, claiming that. That, you know, that we chose blue as our. In our branding to deceive people. When the evidence shows we were using blue as far back as 2005, that we stole rays because we were trying to copy them when we were using rays, as I understand it, as far back as 2012. Like, how charitable and compassionate and kind is it to be engaging in lawfare to sue a podcast that's just trying to counterbalance their deception and lack of transparency with truth and honesty and accountability. Are we really going to use Mormon Church leaders as the example for charity and compassion and kindness?

Guest 7 [00:29:00] It is so odd because there has to be in there.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] You can learn it, Megan. That's the only. Where else can we learn honesty and compassion and kindness? Go ahead.

Guest 7 [00:29:09] Sorry, I don't know. I don't. You're right. Because there, to me, there has to be a separation somewhere in their mind because Ras Band is standing up there and saying this about himself because he is a member of the quorum of the 12. He is a prophet, seer and revelator. Right. And so he also has to know all of these things. He has to know the church is suing Mormon stories. He has to understand that Oakes stood up and said, we don't give apologies, nor do we seek them. He has to know who's been excommunicated. And yet somewhere in his mind, he can stand up and say, we are the best example of what Jesus wants for the world. But I don't think that if Jesus was here, he would be directing the Mormon Church to do what it's doing. I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:29:58] And I. And I. Yeah. Amen And I also just. The biggest thing of all that I have to just never forget is the COVID up of child abuse. Like, the church has covered up tens of thousands, as I understand it, tens of thousands of instances of child abuse. And they continue to do it. And is that honesty and is that, you know, charity, and is that compassion for the victims and for the children and for the family members of the victims? And is that kind like just the child abuse problems? I would say the child abuse problem is probably the biggest problem in all of Mormonism.

Guest 7 [00:30:40] Yeah. And we're gonna. I think we've talked about it every week and we're gonna talk about it again this week.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] Yeah. And we should never forget to mention that D. Todd Christofferson, a member of the First Presidency, in other words, one of the top three leaders in all the Mormon Church, it appears new for at least five years that his brother was a child abuser and did not turn his. His brother in. And instead, as I understand it was influential in, in Wade Christofferson's membership records being deannotated so that he could get rebaptized and get into a member, get into a bishopric so that he could then have power and influence over more victims. And that's D. Todd Christofferson with his own brother. And now he's one of the top three apostles in the church. Like, we can't, you know, no, definitely

Guest 7 [00:31:37] not what the New Testament Jesus would. Would do.

Are You Still the Role Models That Humanity Needs?

John Dehlin [00:31:42] Not, not the role models that humanity needs. Like I would lovingly. We're all imperfect. Before you're declaring yourself as the primary source of moral and ethical and compassionate and honesty and kindness instruction, maybe clean up your own house. I don't know.

Guest 7 [00:32:04] Yeah, that'd be great.

John Dehlin [00:32:06] Yeah.

Guest 7 [00:32:10] Yeah. So this is a different story, but I thought it was kind of related. So the First Presidency has called for a unified fast. And a little bit of the article said. Kurt Fertig, the American Institutions Program Chair at Ensign College, told the Church News podcast, a lot of people around the world do not enjoy religious freedom. I think the purpose of this fast is to ask the Lord to work miracles around the world, to soften hearts, to open avenues for changes within governments where those are needed so that people can start to feel that same ability to really practice the religion freely, whatever religion that is, and remove those bands, loose those bands, he said. So, yeah, the First Presidency is calling for a worldwide fast for religious liberty this Sunday. And I just thought it was tied to the, you know, freedom, Fourth of July, we are the best country. So I thought I'D put it in there.

The First Presidency Calls for a Worldwide Fast for Religious Liberty

John Dehlin [00:33:03] Yeah. And that's, you know, that is, if D jokes is going to have one legacy beyond the torture and death of probably thousands of LGBT Mormons over the past 30 or 40 years. And I don't say that gleefully at all, but he is the architect of. He did sign the IRB at BYU for electroshock conversion therapy for gay students. He. He was the architect behind Prop 8, Prop 22. He was the architect behind the November 2015 policy. There's just no question, there's no way to even debate that. If, if that's not his dark legacy, then this idea of religious freedom is which, which. Yeah, I don't know any other way to really describe what Oaks means by religious freedom other than the freedom to discriminate against vulnerable groups.

Guest 7 [00:34:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:34:10] What else does it mean in 2026? Megan?

Guest 7 [00:34:13] No, I, I think that's what it means. And now he's asking the whole world to pray for that so that the Mormon Church can continue to do those things.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] Yeah. And like, it just bears. Why should a 300, 400, 500 billion dollar church have extra religious protections, including tax exempt status at this point? Why do they need tax exempt status? Why shouldn't they be paying taxes now that they're worth 3, $400 billion?

Guest 7 [00:34:45] Yeah, they don't need it.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] And why shouldn't they have financial transparency? Like, why should religions not have to be financially transparent when charities and nonprofits are, or even corporations are? Why do we allow religions in the United States to not even have to be financially transparent?

Guest 7 [00:35:07] Because people like Dallin Oaks have fought for it.

Guest [00:35:10] Yeah.

Guest 7 [00:35:10] I mean, that's why I don't think it's wise. And I think it allows the church to continue to tell people all over the world that the first thing you better do is pay tithing. Actually, in the Gospel principles manual that's still current in the church today, if you go to the section on repentance, the first thing it says you need to do to be repentant is to pay your tithes.

John Dehlin [00:35:34] Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah. Pay your tithing before you buy shoes if you're poor, tithing before you buy food if you're poor. That's literally what Mormon general authorities have told people in developing countries for decades. So it's just weird. Like, that's actually one of the most embarrassing things about the United States is, is religious freedom because it makes it so Scientology and Mormonism and other high demand religions or cults can thrive here where, like in Europe and even, I mean, Even communist China or Russia, those countries clamp down on cults and say, we don't want cults here, we're going to shut them down. But, but in America, quote, religious freedom makes it so these cults or high demand religions can actually not just be shut down, but thrive and grow and in our church's case, become a, a trillion dollar church in a, you know, within 20 to 30 years. So anyway, I didn't feel ranty today, Megan, but your slides are making me ranty. It's your fault.

Guest 7 [00:36:50] I told you there's always more news to talk about. So this was an email sent out to the Centerville Canyon ward. It says, dear ward members, the much anticipated 250th birthday of our country is upon us. As we join our countrymen in celebrating, let us also remember that the role God has played in the establishment of the land so that the agency of mankind might be elevated and established throughout the world. Until American independence, there was not a place on earth where religious freedom allowed for the making and keeping of covenants with God through saving ordinances. As an extension of the Abrahamic covenant wherein through Abraham's seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed, America's founders finally created an environment conducive to covenant keeping which then proved to be contagious throughout much of the world. The latter day restoration of these covenants shortly followed. As we wave the flag, watch parades and enjoy fireworks with one another, let us also remember our covenants as part of our celebration. For that was the end to which America independence was the means.

200th Birthday Message: Our Covenants

John Dehlin [00:37:57] What are your reactions to that, Megan?

Guest 7 [00:37:59] It's just a reinforcement of what they've been hearing. So this isn't, you know, it's coming from the top, but it is disseminating down to individual members and wards and they're sending out messages like that on, you know, with the church letterhead at the top.

John Dehlin [00:38:16] You know, when I, when I think about what's going on in the world right now, like we just, I mean we all, I think we all agree that Maduro, the, the former president of Venezuela was a horrible human. And in my civics lesson, the United States doesn't just kidnap leaders of foreign nation states. You know, that's just not how the world works. No, we would never accept someone kidnapping our president and imprisoning them, we would go to war. So just because we have the power or the means to do it. So whether it's the abduction of the president of Venezuela and his wife, our threats to take over Cuba, whether it's you know, our, our bombing of Iran, which is a terrible regime, a violent, horrific regime in terms of, you know, the, the role that it's played in, in chaos and violence in the Middle east, no one's going to debate that. But the war that, that was unleashed upon the Middle east, this sort of patriotic rah, rah, America, God's behind us is dangerous in the sense that it makes us feel like we're justified as a country in doing whatever we want. And I don't think that's what the world necessarily needs, especially if our goals and motives aren't pure. What do you think?

Guest 7 [00:39:50] Yes. If we are a Christian nation, if, you know, people really like to talk about, as that email said, how the US Was set apart so that the gospel could be on the earth, then we need to do a much better job at functioning as Jesus would. And I don't think any of those things push toward that. People will say, oh, well, he flipped a table. Well, I don't claim to be Jesus, so I'm not gonna be flipping that same table. I'm going to try to, you know, offer compassion. And I don't look at other people in other countries and think, I'm in the US So I'm better than everyone. I actually get embarrassed sometimes by what we do as a country.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] Yeah. And I'll just say that, you know how I've said a million times it should be illegal to say that you spoke with God and, and here's what God wants you to know. You know, to speak on behalf of God. It should be illegal. I think it should be illegal to claim the, that God, that God is behind your country, specifically at the exclusion of all other countries because it's just too much power, too much hubris to believe that yours of 150 countries in the world, yours is God's one true country. And it's the only country where religious freedom is allowed, where you can keep covenants and, you know, get God's saving ordinances like. Anyway, can I just also just say, can we please Mormon church stop using the word seed when we're talking about lineage? I don't mean to be crude, but Megan, seed is a euphemism. For what?

Guest 7 [00:41:49] For sperm.

John Dehlin [00:41:50] Certainly euphemism for sperm. And this letter says Abraham's seed. Through Abraham's seed, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. So thank you Abraham, for your sperm. And now I'm sure the Middle east feels very blessed because of your sperm, Abraham. I'm sure United Arab Emirates and Qatar And Oman and, you know, Lebanon and Syria and the Gaza. I'm sure all of the world is feeling very blessed for your seed, Abraham.

Guest 7 [00:42:36] Let's just take all the manuals and take out seed and put some sperm and then just see what happens. It'd be great.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] Yeah, like. Like embracing white national. White Christian nationalism is the opposite of what the world needs right now, in my opinion. And it's an example of the Mormon Church always, Mormon Church leaders always being 30 plus years behind the times, whether it's on getting rid of polygamy, whether it's on the civil rights movement, whether it's on equal Rights Amendment with women, whether it's on the lgbt, you know, support and affirmation, doubling and tripling down on white Christian, Mormon. American nationalism is just the wrong direction for men who claim to be led by God and to be special witnesses

Guest 7 [00:43:29] of Jesus Christ and who are doing everything they can to spread their version of Jesus's story in other countries, especially Africa, right now.

John Dehlin [00:43:41] Yeah. Yeah. All right. What's this?

Members Clean the Stake Center

Guest 7 [00:43:47] So if you don't have something to do on the 4th, you can go clean the Stake center with the Independence First Ward. Let me bring it like it's small. So let me bring up a bigger word so I can read it.

John Dehlin [00:43:58] Hey, at least they're using AI. I'll read it. Friends of Independence Ward, it's our turn to clean the Stake Center. What a great time to serve as a ward family. I hope to see you there. I love you, Bishop.

Guest 7 [00:44:12] Yeah, I just thought it was funny.

John Dehlin [00:44:14] Many hands will make quick work of cleaning the Stake Center. And the truth is, like, yes, on the one hand, the church is a $300 billion organization and they can afford to hire janitors. But on the other hand, in defense of the church, it's probably better for the members to do some service and to help support the church they are a part of and benefit from. So I am never as bent up about the church asking members to help clean the chapel as. As other people. That's just my opinion. What's your opinion, Megan?

Guest 7 [00:44:47] Well, so a family member of mine had. His father was a custodian for the church when they phased him out, and he lost his job. So that was aggravating, obviously, for him and his family. My other thing is that, yes, I think it creates some ownership. You know, if kids at a high school help clean the high school, they're going to be less likely to mess it up because then they're going to be the ones cleaning it. So it creates this ownership. However, if the church paid for custodians, not only would they be offering jobs to people who possibly need jobs, which I know they do through things like Deseret Industries, but also then they could set apart those times to clean something else that someone else can't pay to have people clean, you know, clean up your town, clean up your local parks. That time could be allocated to something else where the money is more needed.

John Dehlin [00:45:51] Yeah, that's valid. Scab J7G writes, if the church wasn't so wealthy, I'd agree. So basically Scab is saying, yes, in theory it's okay for members to help clean up a church, but maybe not if the church is so fantastically wealthy. I also want to share. I love feedback and I love our live stream audience sharing. Miguel the Alpaca 8971 says to be fair in China it's atheists who suppress religious freedom. And I, that that might be fair. Okay, okay. But, but I, I mean my reaction was I don't care who does it like, I just want cults and high demand religions that are deceptive or abusive to be held accountable and not to be protected and nurtured to grow exponentially with, with all the protections. So I don't know if is, is that a pro atheist comment? Is he basically saying we should give atheists credit for holding cults in check in China?

China: Atheists Are Not Suppressing Religious Freedom

Guest 7 [00:47:02] Yeah, maybe. I could see how that could be the case or people feel that way for sure. But I agree with you that they should not have protections that even you or I don't have. You know, high demand religions or cults.

John Dehlin [00:47:21] Yeah, I, I have to publish a 990 every year for my nonprofit. I have to publish my own salary. And I think that's good. I think accountability is good. Would I rather not? Yeah, I'd rather not. But I think just because it's, it's uncomfortable. But that's a good thing. Right? It keeps us accountable. I thought to add Haley Cram says Megan has grace. What do you think about that, Megan?

Guest 7 [00:47:49] I say thank you. Yeah, it took me a long time. I mean I've been out of the church for almost eight years now and I've gone through all of the stages of grief. Right. I was very angry and I still hit that sometimes, but I now find it fascinating and actually enjoy trying to see things from both sides.

Guest [00:48:11] Yeah.

Guest 7 [00:48:11] Keeps things very interesting.

John Dehlin [00:48:13] Me too. I want to be that way too. I'm a little bit. I don't know if I'm salty today or if you just chose really intense stories. Don McCarty writes. Hey, everyone made it to my first Mormon stories live. Welcome, Don. And everyone who is joining us either for the first time or just in general. Tongan Jedi writes, atheism in China isn't suppressing religion. The Chinese government is suppressing religion. And, and yeah, I don't want to say that the Chinese government should be glorified either because I think they have big, big problems and it could be they're controlling religion for nefarious purposes because I do like the idea of freedom of speech and freedom of assembly and freedom of speech and I don't think China is a shining example of those things. But again, I do like cults or high demand religions being in check. Okay, what's our next clip?

MAGA Mormons, Don't Take Advice From The Mormon Church

Guest 7 [00:49:17] This is also related. This is from the Salt Lake Tribune and they're talking about the spiritual, one of the spiritual advisors who is higher up in Trump's. I don't know what word I was

Speaker E [00:49:30] going to use there.

Guest 7 [00:49:30] But anyway, he's advising at the highest levels and this is what he has said recently about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:49:39] I'm gonna, I'm gonna title this section MAGA Mormons. The maga MAGA folks, the MAGA leadership aren't the friends you think they are. That's how that's. And again, I'm not being political. I'm just being descriptive. If you're a Mormon MAGA person and you think MAGA likes you, pay attention. Let's roll the clip.

Speaker E [00:50:04] Recently spoke with Pastor Doug Wilson, who is defense.

John Dehlin [00:50:07] I just pause and say, I think Tamara Kemsley. She's a reporter for the Salt Lake Tribune. I think she's doing some of the most important Mormon, you know, reporting in the world right now. And this is a phenomenal little mini report. But she also wrote a fantastic article summarizing our response to the Mormon Church's lawsuit and our counterclaims. I just want to give Tamara Kemsley and I guess the Salt Lake Tribune just a lot of praise for their work. Is that so people have her and credit her as they watch this story.

Guest 7 [00:50:44] Yes, well, and this is just a short that she made. There is a. The full length art interview on their YouTube page.

Guest [00:50:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] Okay. Anyway, we'll go back to it and start, we'll start this over.

Doug Wilson: If Latter Day Saints Voted, Then

Speaker G [00:50:55] Is being aborted and same sex mirage weddings. Kids being aborted and same sex mirage weddings are a far greater problem than Mormons voting.

Speaker E [00:51:06] I recently spoke with Pastor Doug Wilson, who is Defense Secretary Pete Hexa, spiritual leader. Wilson is a self identified Christian nationalist and someone who has been steadily gaining prominence under the second Donald Trump administration. Through his Sermons Book Blog podcast, he is tirelessly engaging, constructing a society whose leaders and laws accord with what he believes to be biblical principles. I wanted to know where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and its members fit into that America.

Speaker G [00:51:35] In my ideal Christian republic, I'd want all office holders to be Orthodox Christians.

Speaker E [00:51:42] Wilson's definition of Christian is excludes Latter

Speaker G [00:51:45] Day Saints, the Constitution would be Christian and the oath of office is to uphold the Constitution. Then you'd want to entrust the care of that to people who understood it.

Speaker E [00:51:57] He opposes abortion except for in the case of to save the mother's life. He supports a ban on same sex marriage and no fault divorce, and he believes only one member from each household, typically the husband should have the right to vote. When asked if Flattery's Saints should be allowed to vote in his world in this hypothetical system, he hesitated.

Speaker G [00:52:15] Kids being aborted and same sex mirage weddings are a far greater problem than Mormons voting.

Speaker E [00:52:24] So what would Latter Day Saints have to change about what they believe and how they practice in order for you to consider them fellow Christians?

Speaker G [00:52:32] The LDS position is that as God is, we may become and as we are God once was, and there is a multiplicity of them. Who is this Jesus? Well, he is someone who used to not be God, just like I'm not God right now. He used to be in that same position and I'm going to be in the position that he's in now, which is being God over some planet or other. And I would just say just on the surface of it, that's just a different faith.

Speaker E [00:53:01] The pastor told me he wasn't involved in the decision to leave Latter Day Saint points off the list of Christian faiths from the Directory of Recognized Religious Affiliations used by the Defense Department's Chaplain Corps.

Speaker G [00:53:12] I'm happy to tell you I had nothing to do with it, but it looked to me like a Pentagon snafu, not a deliberate PTEG set saying let's make sure that the Mormons are not on the list of Christians. And the reason for that is that there were other groups manifestly not orthodox that were left on, which told me that there was not a doctrinal purge going on.

Speaker E [00:53:32] Experts on conservative white evangelicals don't think that Latter Day Saints should start worrying about seeing their voting rights stripped away anytime soon. But any movement toward a reconciliation that might have been underway in previous decades is almost certainly over. As Calvin University's Kristen Kobe's Dumas put it, with conservatives in power, Latter Day Saints electoral muscle is just less valuable. And that means evangelicals simply don't feel the need to play nice anymore.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] There's so much there. Megan, but let me let you go first. What do you think's interesting about that or shocking or troubling or amazing?

Pete Hegseth Calls Same-Sex Marriage a '

Guest 7 [00:54:08] Oh, it was shocking. I don't know if it's a resurgence, but it just feels more present lately of people wanting to go back to very traditional 1950s. The wife stays home. She doesn't need to have as many rights. She doesn't need to vote. Maybe she can't even own property. And the husband is the breadwinner. And that sort of out of view is. I mean, I grew up under that. But it's still so shocking to me that in 2026, people think that going back to that is what's going to save our whole world. It's very strange. But yes, also, as you said, this guy is not a friend to Mormons. I think he thinks they're blasphemous.

John Dehlin [00:55:03] Yeah. Do we know for sure? Okay, okay. I just asked. I just asked the Internet, who is Pete Hegseth spiritual advisor? Because I don't want to just accept that just blindly. And so what it says is, Pete Hegseth's closest spiritual advisor is Pastor Brooks Potager, an evangelical minister at Pilgrim Hill Reformed Fellowship in Tennessee. And then it says Hegseth has also cited theologian and pastor Doug Wilson as an important spiritual and ideological mentor. Hegseth attends Wilson's communion of Reformed Evangelical Church's network and even brought Pottager to the Pentagon to lead worship services. So what this is saying is that Hegseth, like, attends churches in Doug Wilson's network and sees him as a mentor. And so. Okay, I just wanted to kind of fact check that a little bit. And first of all, what is he doing calling it same sex mirage? Like, is that insulting?

Guest 7 [00:56:27] Yes. Yeah, he was doing that very intentionally. The first time I listened to it, I was like, did he just say mirage? And so then I went back and listened again and I was like, oh, he did. He's saying it's not real. That's what he's saying.

John Dehlin [00:56:39] And that's, I mean, again, that's a theocracy. Like, it's. The Supreme Court declared that same sex marriages are legitimate. So they're. They're legal marriages in the United States. So for you to allow your religious views to just devaluate, to devalue tens or hundreds of thousands of people's legal institutional unions. It's kind of revolting, but it's like quintuple revolting to say you're a follower of the Prince of Peace and Christ to speak about people's families that way. So that's kind of revolting and disgusting to me. Even if you disagree, even if you disagree that same sex marriage should be legal, why not do the Christ like thing and talk about people's families in loving, respectful ways? Yes, even if you vote differently. So the fact that Hegseth sees this guy well as a spiritual advisor makes all the sense in the world because Hegseth has to be one of the most disrespectful rhetoricians I bet I'll probably ever seen in all of US diplomacy. I don't. I can't think of another. I mean, unless we're talking some of the people who who recently were fired in the administration. Like, I don't think there's a worse rhetorician, more violent, revolting rhetorician out there than Pete Hegseth. So it makes sense that his spiritual advisor speaks that way. What'd you think of him saying Mormon teachings of theosis and multiple gods and, and humans owning planets is, is a big stumbling block for Mormons to be embraced as, as a, as fundamentalist Christians. What do you think about that?

Richard Spencer on the Decommissioning of Mormons as Christians

Guest 7 [00:58:40] Well, I mean, I understand why now Mormons are trying to. Will have been for years trying to distance themselves from that since Hinckley. I mean, maybe that was the. Something that Hinckley saw around the corner was that we better kind of shut this one down a little bit and say, I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we practice it on national television. But, you know, that was actually the part of Mormonism that made sense to me was the part where God and, you know, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother had children and those children have children and then they go on to be gods. That made sense to me. So the fact that other people dislike it so much was something that I hadn't thought about until I wasn't really an active member anymore.

John Dehlin [00:59:25] Well, yeah, and first of all, Hinckley didn't see around the corner. He just happened to be in the first presidency when the God Makers movie came out and swept the country in the 1980s. And it just mocked our. With the Hanna Barbera cartoon. It mocked our teaching that, that humans become gods and, and have endless babies. And we talked about this, I think last week on the Mormon News podcast. But it's. Yeah, it's, I will say In Joseph Smith's defense that traditional Christian theology about heaven is tediously boring and dull, that all we're gonna do in heaven for eternity is like, play harps and sing and worship God. Like that makes. I can see that Joseph Smith came about, came by his narcissism, his theologically based narcissism, honestly, because that's what traditional Christians think heaven will be like. It will just be constantly, eternally worshiping God, which makes traditional fundamentalist Christian God the most narcissistic being of all existence. That he would create all these souls to eternally worship him, if they aren't condemned to hell, of course, for not worshiping Him. What a messed up God. So at least Joseph improved on that a little by saying, hey, we could become gods too. And hey, we can create our own worlds and, I don't know, become eternal narcissists ourselves. At least lots of narcissists instead of just one.

Guest 7 [01:01:23] Yeah, yeah, it's great. No, but it made way more sense to me. I was like, I'm ready. I'm ready to create my own world. I'm going to put some weird stuff in it. The science sciences will puzzle over for years.

John Dehlin [01:01:34] Will mother in heaven have dreadlocks? I don't know.

Guest 7 [01:01:38] You know what?

Guest [01:01:39] It's.

Guest 7 [01:01:40] I will. This mother in heaven.

Guest [01:01:41] Will,

John Dehlin [01:01:47] What'd you think about him saying that he was not involved? That he's. Why is he happy to tell us that he was not involved in the Department of Defense exclusion of Mormons as Christian? You would think if he really thought we weren't Christian, he would be proud to have any association with the declassification of Mormons as Christian. So why do you think he said he was happy to say he wasn't involved?

Guest 7 [01:02:13] Just because it would make him look bad if he was involved, you know, so he's like, oh, no, I. I think all, you know, Mormons aren't Christians. But I wasn't the one who said it out loud. It's a weird statement for him to say that after saying Mormons aren't really part of, you know, they're not Christians. We don't believe that they have the right theology. But I wasn't the one who said it and I wasn't the one who made the classification.

John Dehlin [01:02:39] It seems like what he would say is they got it half right. I'm glad they declassified Mormons as not being Christian, but they left off some other, you know, Protestant churches that should get the boot or cults, because I think Seventh Day Venice and Jehovah's witnesses were left on, which shows where we are in the pecking order.

Guest 7 [01:03:03] Right. Well, and maybe that's why he said he wasn't part of it, because if he did it, it would have been done better. So the Mormons and the other ones would have been left off.

John Dehlin [01:03:11] Yeah, it's still a little bit weird.

Guest 7 [01:03:13] It is weird.

John Dehlin [01:03:14] And then, and then I'll just say this, that, like, obviously the tradwife phenomenon is on the rise and that's tied to white Christian fundamentalist nationalism. But, but, but we're literally getting to the point where there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Americans that think that the vote should be taken away from women. And I'm not making that up. This guy, this guy, Doug Wilson, Pete Hegseth's, one of Pete Hegseth's two top spiritual advisors, believes that there should be one vote per family. And the only family that's legitimate is a traditional standard, one husband, one wife, Christian family. So gays can't vote, non Christians can't vote, and. And women can't vote. So the only people that can vote are. Are, in effect, Christian men. That's as I understand it. Please correct me, viewers and listeners, if I've got Christian nationalism and Doug Wilson wrong, but that's my understanding of his. His thoughts on democracy. What was that your understanding, Megan?

Guest 7 [01:04:38] Yeah, and I've heard it from other people, not just him. And, and the first time I did, I was like, are we serious right now that women shouldn't. What about the household that's a single mom with her kids? I mean, it just. They don't allow for anything outside of their perfect vision of what the family is going to look like. And I don't want to be part of a country that is going backwards in that way.

John Dehlin [01:05:07] Yeah, we have a comment from sis. You should have been a detective. I don't know if she's referring this comment to us or to other commenters, but it says you are not supposed to show any political bias. And. And then she goes on to write, Doug Wilson and LDS do have some of the same goals politically and culturally. I just want to say, and I just want to say that I don't think of Mormon stories or even myself as being partisan. And when I call out, when we call out what Pete Hegseth believes or teaches or who he admires, or even if we comment on war policy or Christian nationalism or even if we mention maga, I just want to be clear. That doesn't mean I'm telling the world they should be Democrat or that I like Joe Biden or that I'm partisan at all. I just want to make sure, because I've always wanted Mormon stories to feel safe for everyone, regardless of political persuasion, and I still do. And I don't believe that God has a political party or even that one political party is inherently better than another, or that I even can tell people how to vote. But are we so fragile that we can't talk about politics in a religious or a moral context and that if we do make criticisms on one side or the other that, like, we're going to shut off and stop listening because Mormon stories is partisan? What do you think, Megan? How do you, how do you handle politics with your channel and with your own worldview?

Guest 7 [01:06:58] Yeah, I'm very similar. I do talk about it sometimes and I always get similar comments saying, you know, this side's better and this side's better. And like I said previously, I like to look at both sides and give them equal, like, pick them apart equally. Because from, like, when I left Mormonism, when I was in Mormonism, I was all in. And when I left, then I was all the way out and I was angry. And I, you know, and I have found that when a pendulum swings from one side to the other, it will hopefully eventually rest somewhere closer to the center. And I say that because I think both sides have good and both sides have bad. And if we want to have the healthiest country, then we need to find the middle ground. And it's become so polarized where, like you said, we can't say maga and then someone's just offended because we even use that term. If we can't talk about it, we can't eventually get that pendulum to settle.

Topics of Mormonism and Politics

John Dehlin [01:08:11] Yeah, we should be able to talk about wokeness and maga. And yeah, for me, it's not, it's middle ground, but it's also just discourse. We need to be able to talk about these things or I think we're toast. And sis, you should have been a detective, followed up and said I was not calling Mormon stories as being biased. Sorry, I enjoy Ms. And sorry, I hope I didn't mischaracterize you. Thanks for the clarification. I just think it's important because I don't want to not be able to talk about the intersection between religion and politics and the intersection between Mormonism and politics. And listen, if in two or five years, somehow Mormonism and democratic politics are in the mix, I'm going to look at that with a critical eye as well.

Guest [01:09:05] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:09:06] So Anyway, but please, viewers and listeners get stronger, get more mature, and have the ability to allow us to talk about these things without just shutting it off. Because you think we lean one way or another. I think you'd be surprised where we lean. We probably lean in lots of different ways for lots of different issues. And Megan and I probably don't see all political things equally.

Guest 7 [01:09:38] You know, probably not.

John Dehlin [01:09:40] No one does.

Guest 7 [01:09:41] And that's okay. Yep, that's okay.

Topics of Gender and Politics

John Dehlin [01:09:44] Well, speaking of controversy in politics, this next story is, is going to be really sensitive to people because it's going to be talking about gender and gender. One of the saddest, for me, one of the saddest things over the past few years is to see gender politicized. Because I'll just say this. Regardless of how you feel about gender conformity or gender non conformity, regardless of how you feel about transgender issues, you know, transgender surgeries or whatever, children or adults or pronouns, how are you feel about any of that? I don't think anyone can disagree that this is a vulnerable population that deserves to be spoken about with kindness and respect regardless of how you vote or see things politically. And so I just want to give that disclaimer. What I'm looking for isn't how people vote or whether you think a state should be able to regulate whether someone who's biologically male should be able to compete in high school women's athletics. People are going to feel differently about how they vote or make decisions on gender. But I would hope we could all agree that we should talk about a vulnerable population that has higher rates of suicidality and mental health distress and violence perpetrated against them. I just think we should be able to talk about them with respect and kindness and compassion.

Guest 7 [01:11:24] Yes, that's my amen.

Pono the Fashion Designer Is Mormon

John Dehlin [01:11:26] So with that, here's the story. Go ahead, Megan.

Guest 7 [01:11:30] So this was posted on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints official. This is from their Facebook page. It says, I am Pono. I am from Hawaii, grew up military and moved a lot. I came to New York about five years ago to study fashion at Parsons and just graduated. Now I design women's wear for a brand that we show at New York Fashion Week, which still feels unreal in the best way. He talks about how he started as a ballet dancer and a lot of inspiration in his life came from women. He learned to sew with Relief Society sisters. And then he says, faith has always been part of my life and it shows up in my work in quiet ways. I love exploring identity, spirituality, and purpose through clothing Clothes can tell stories. They can carry light. There were times in fashion school when I felt different from everyone around me. But I learned I do not have to choose between being creative and being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Both shape me. Both matter. I just want to create things that honor where I come from and help people feel seen and powerful.

Celebrating Diversity in the LDS Church

John Dehlin [01:12:28] Okay, so can we first just start by celebrating the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and whoever's behind this channel for celebrating diversity?

Guest 7 [01:12:48] Yes. I want it to be from Aaron Sherinian. I know he, like got into the PR department and then disappeared for a long time. I, I want him to be behind this. I, this is what I was hoping would happen when he got hired.

John Dehlin [01:13:02] Yeah, it's. And it's not saying anything about transitioning. It's not saying anything about high school athletics or bathrooms. It's just saying this kid had a great experience, benefited from his church association, maintains his faith, and it's really helped him in his life. And he's gone down a non normative gender path and he's really grateful for the fact that in this church he was allowed to benefit from following a gender non conforming path. Like, full stop, yay.

Guest [01:13:46] Am I wrong? Nope.

Guest 7 [01:13:48] I love it. I love it. He's taking the most beautiful parts of everything he learned and allowing it to propel him in a career that he's super passionate about. I love it.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] So we've been very critical today against certain aspects of the Mormon Church or the LDS Church in the past. We are critical sometimes. Full stop, yay. Celebration, LDS Church. Not for agreeing with us, by the way, not for a political view, just for like, showcasing the variability of the human experience in a positive way.

Guest [01:14:25] Yeah.

Guest 7 [01:14:25] Yeah. Just for allowing Pono to be front and center on their official Facebook page showing that he loves his life. If Mormonism can produce this, then yes, let's celebrate. Celebrate that.

Guest [01:14:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:45] This is progress. Yes, this is progress. Okay, so why are we talking about it? So that would be enough, but it's not enough. So I was, I was on Facebook just a couple days ago and what brought this up for me? Unfortunately, I don't really follow the LDS Church's channel, but Greg Matson, a friend of this show, in my opinion, I consider Greg a friend. I like a lot about what Greg does and who he is and what he does. He asks, he shares this post on Facebook and he asks who is in charge of this account. So he's basically saying, I, I don't know. I, I, I don't want to put, well, I'm not going to put words in his mouth, but he's basically expressing concern. And so then a progressive or post Mormon, Allison Moore Smith, asks, what's your problem with the actual post? And so this is what Greg Matson says. Allison Moore Smith. It's not the post itself. So he doesn't have a problem, you know, in and of itself with, with Pono. But he says, it's not the story, not the person. I wish him the best. It's the actual posting of the story by the official account of the church. So Greg's position is the church shouldn't be promoting stories like this. And he says, we live in a time when the world is emasculating men and masculine, masculinizing women. To have the church go along with this is concerning, especially when men get practically no messaging from the church specifically about being men. Then you get this type of post filling the massive void. He goes on to respond to Megan Kohler in a vacuum. I have no problem with this story, but it smells like cultural trends. And again, I have no problem with the young man or his pursuits outside of his pride support. So he's got a problem with his pride support, but he doesn't have a problem with him or his pursuits. It's the cultural context into which it is posted. Our time. There are rarely masculine messages for men in the church. And it is rare to find a message directly to men that is positive about masculinity either inside or outside the church. Men in this church desperately need positive direction with a masculine message. And he clarifies because I'm thinking, what, like cowboy messages? Football messages, dump truck driving messages? Like what, mustache wearing messages? What is the masculinity he's looking for? You know, and he basically says, I'm not talking about just some cowboy grit. I'm talking about how the Gospel works hand in hand with the masculine and the feminine. Mercy and justice, huh? Is he saying women are mercy and men are justice? I'm curious. Christ is full of grace and truth. Is he saying women are forgiveness and men are bearers of truth? I don't know what he's saying there. Our Western culture will dwindle in large part because of this. The church is struggling and will struggle with the same. So, Megan, as you know, as a woman, help me understand what Greg is saying here. Let's do the best job at steel manning Greg Madsen's argument here before we take it down. Can you steel Manson's argument here?

Greg Matson on Pono's Criticism of the LDS Church

Guest 7 [01:18:47] I don't know if I can. Oh, that was a tough read. I mean, I, okay, if I'm looking at it with my Mormon brain and I'm seeing how things are changing and how the church is shifting from the church that I grew up in the 80s where, like I said before, things were very traditional. My dad went to work and my mom stayed home. And constantly from the pulpit, the leaders talked about women's places in the home. The women are the nurturers, the men are the breadwinners. And yes, this play between mercy and justice and truth. And I can, I can see how he would see that those things were more identified in the past. They came out maybe a little stronger. But it's hard for me, John, because those are not the thoughts. I was happy

John Dehlin [01:19:44] you're your critique. But, but yes, I just want to shout out my friend Bill Euler is in the chat. I love, I love to hear from Bo. So, hey Bo, glad you're, Glad you're joining us even by comments. Here's, here's the steel man. I'll give the steel man and then Megan, I want your thoughtful critique because I, he probably thought about this more than me. Here's the, here's the steel man. For Greg's argument, society and the gospel have, have. Well, I think what he would say is gender is eternal, that we have biological sex here in the human, in, in the biological world. And that that reflects God's holy order. God as a God is a man with a penis and, you know, celestial sperm and God has a wife or wives and they each. That is the order of heaven. That is what the family of proclamation says. And so there is biological sex and thus some sort of gender that conforms to biological sex in the celestial world kingdom according to Mormonism and the family and the proclamation. And I think you would add to that that in the world today, society is fashioned after gender, that, that develops societally around biological sex norms. And yes, you would agree that gender has changed over centuries, but he would say in general, we have as a society and as a church and as a religion have benefited from men being more of the breadwinner, more of the strong, physically strong, more of the protective, you know, hunter gatherer kind of role that, that, that that typifies a certain set of traits like strength, like protection, like justice, like truth, and that we need like a yin yang. Society needs men being guardians and protectors of those types of values as a counter to women playing the role of childbearers, of nurturers, of mercy, of compassion. And I think he would say there's mercy and compassion on both sides of the gender, you know, span. There's strength on both sides, there's breadwinning on both sides. I think he would say, as I understand it, his wife works outside the home. You know what I mean? Like, he understands that there's going to be all sorts of variability in society and even in Mormonism. But that society, and more importantly, the gospel benefit when the church emphasizes traditional gender roles and traditional gender characteristics, because society and the church benefit from there being those norms. From those norms, those gender norms, those traditional gender norms being reinforced as what's encouraged and nurtured instead of the gender variance or diversion from those norms. Because society and the gospel benefit from those norms being encouraged and reinforced. And most importantly, God's eternal celestial plan and the Mormon plan of salvation are oriented around these gender norms primarily. That's what I think he's saying now. What's your critique of that, Megan?

Traditional gender roles in the LDS Church

Greg Ballard: The Mormon Church Needs More Masculine Messages

Guest 7 [01:23:49] Well, he spent so much time saying there are rarely masculine messages for men in the church. And, Greg, how often do we hear even the term Heavenly Mother?

Guest [01:24:08] We.

Guest 7 [01:24:09] We're not even supposed to talk about her.

Guest [01:24:11] We.

Guest 7 [01:24:11] We know she exists, but we don't talk about her. So if you're not hearing masculine messages from the brethren, Greg, then you're not listening to them, because when they open their mouths, they're saying Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and they're in charge, and we need to be like them. And they're both men. I mean, aside from everything else they say, that is the very crux of the Mormon Church is that Heavenly Father's in charge. He sent Jesus. They're both men, and we are supposed to become like them. I was never told that I was supposed to become like Heavenly Mother. I'm striving to be like Jesus in Heavenly Father. There are so many other things that they say that are very male focused. But what it comes down to is that all of the role models that they champion, from Heavenly Father to Jesus Christ to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Nephi, and for the most part, they're all men. So if he's not hearing male positive messages, I don't know what he's hearing.

John Dehlin [01:25:37] Well, what he's hearing. And thank you for that, Megan. And let's just pursue this a little further. What he's hearing is that men in the US and men in the church are being feminized. And I think he's concerned about transgender. I don't want to say transgenderism like it's a movement. Like, he's concerned about the prevalence of transgender identities in Mormonism and in broader US Culture. He's concerned about the prevalence of same sex attraction, in his words, or homosexuality in the church or bisexuality in the church. And he's so he's concerned that, that men aren't being. It sort of does reflect the evergreen international conversion therapy kind of vibe, which is if you teach men to chop wood and play football, they won't be gay. You know what I mean? You know, like, we all know how that turned out. Forever Green International and, you know, you know, Mormon conversion therapy in the 80s and 90s and 2000s, and the church has really distanced itself from that because I don't think chopping wood and playing football makes gay men less gay or cures otherwise gay Mormon men. Cures them and makes them heterosexual. But that's kind of what he's implying is that if, if the church put out ads. Hi, I'm Bill. I'm a bishop and I like to chop wood with my son and we go on campouts and ride motorcycles and we shoot guns and my boy is going to be a man who loves Jesus. You know, I kind of. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but it seems like he's saying if the church puts out more masculine messages towards young men will get less gay men in the church and less transgenderism in the church. I think that's part one of what he's saying. And then I think the other part is we've got too much masculinization of women where women are becoming non binary, where Mormon women are becoming short, short hair and not wearing makeup and lipstick and, and dressing more like men. And if we don't encourage lipstick and hairspray and makeup and softness, then we're going to just have more and more Mormon women becoming non binary or transgender or just in his words, probably dykish. And that's not good for the moral Mormon order. What do you say about that? Like, remember when Russell M. Ballard said we need more lipstick in this church? Remember?

Guest 7 [01:28:41] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:42] Remember that?

Guest 7 [01:28:43] Yes, I remember. I had a stake president who wanted all the girls and women to wear nylons all the time.

Mormons: The Church Should Not Force People To Identify With

John Dehlin [01:28:50] What do you think about the argument that the church needs to do more gendered messaging to reduce the gayness and the transness, you know, and, and the masculinization of women and the feminization of men. So why not more messages about how women should love makeup and hairspray and dresses and, and sewing and baking sourdough bread and men should, should like trucks and and motorcycles and guns and military campouts. What's wrong with that messaging?

Guest 7 [01:29:31] Because people should be able to be passionate about what they are passionate about. I, there is a quote, I should look it up that talks about if we had more people in the world who found something, something that they were passionate about and then did that we would have a better world. So when we are trying to force people to, into certain boxes, it actually hurts all of us from being the fullest, most compassionate, most brave, wonderful, happy, loving people that we can be. Because if I am told the only thing I can do is to nurture. And that doesn't include driving trucks or shooting guns. But those are things I'm really passionate about, then I have to shut up down the part of myself that I identify with the most. And then I might have more anxiety, I might have more depression. I'm probably going to show up in ways that aren't super authentic. So it, it's just counterintuitive to having people who really love and enjoy life to put them into these boxes that they might not fit in. Yes, there are a lot of people who fit into these traditional boxes and feel passionate about those things. And then there are some that aren't. And it only hurts people for them to think that they can't look outside that. It's just so limiting.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] Well, okay, I think, I think that, and I'm just, I'm trying to have just a, a thoughtful, fair conversation.

Speaker G [01:31:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:31:16] I'm doing my best to again represent what I think Greg's position is. You force people for you words force people into boxes. You know, to give him credit, maybe he's saying what again, I keep forgetting his name. Whatever Pono does. He's not criticizing Pono per se and I don't think he would agree we should force people into boxes. So Megan, come at this again. I think he's saying the church should encourage gender conforming. They should spotlight and highlight and encourage gender conforming messages about not saying women should never work outside the home or women should never cut their hair. But to say, hey, long hair is good for women. Baking bread is good for women. Child rearing is good for women. Working inside the home as a stay at home mom is good for women. Makeup is good for women. Soft voices and feminine, you know, traditionally feminine traits, they're good for women. And so Mormon girls, you should, you should, you know, consider these softer traits because it's, they're good. So again, he wouldn't say force people into boxes. He would say in church, the church official account should be encouraging traditional femininity and traditional women's roles, and they should be encouraging traditional masculinity and traditional men's roles, because that's the gospel, that's the family proclamation, that's the celestial order, and that's what the church should be encouraging. Not forcing people into boxes, not spreading hate, but just encouraging traditional gender attributes. What's wrong with that, Megan?

Guest 7 [01:33:20] I don't think there's anything wrong with showing people who naturally fall into those areas in that way. I don't think there's any problem with showing a Relief Society mom who loves to cook bread and see her ministering sisters. And the church does do that. I. I think it's hard when you have a church that claims to speak for God and then Greg wants them to not force anyone, you know, like you're saying, but only show one road. If it's coming from God, and the church only shows one path for men and one path for women, and no paths for people who don't identify as either men or women, then it is going to feel forced, whether or not Greg wants it to, because they are claiming the backing of God.

John Dehlin [01:34:22] Yeah, that's a great point. Again, it goes back to this thing claiming you're God's church and God's prophets. It's too much power, which. Which, interestingly, the church is choosing not to be as assertive about. But. But Greg Matson and. And we're going to see some others are. So let's go ahead and go to the next clips because I. I think we've done an okay job of trying to model a steel manning.

Pono the Mormon Fashion Designer

Guest [01:34:51] Mm.

John Dehlin [01:34:51] Let's keep going with the slides.

Guest 7 [01:34:53] Yeah. So this is actually an article from 2023 where they talked about Pono the first time I could find titled the Relief Society taught him to sew. Now he's breaking into the New York City fashion world. And this was from LDS Living. It was not on an official church site. I think LDS Living is very, you know, tied to the church. But I just wanted to show this isn't the first time they talked about them, and the first time they did, it didn't come out as this huge, huge controversy. So it's just interesting to me that three years later now.

John Dehlin [01:35:20] Yeah.

Guest 7 [01:35:21] People can't stop talking about it.

John Dehlin [01:35:23] Okay. If Pona ever. If anyone knows Pono, we'd love to have him on Mormon stories. So please reach out to him.

Guest 7 [01:35:30] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:35:32] Okay.

Guest 7 [01:35:33] Yeah. So this is from the Cougar Chronicle that just, you know. And this came out this week. The title Church communications department features man who sells merch mocking the church.

Guest [01:35:44] Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:35:44] Okay. What mocks the church? Is that Pono again?

Guest 7 [01:35:48] This. So, yes, they're talking about pono. So these are images from an Instagram page of someone that he collaborates with on his designs.

John Dehlin [01:35:58] So Pono sells merch that has Boy Scouts kissing, that has black and white women kissing, and it says, love one another and that shows. What's that bottom right? What are the bottom right Two images, Megan?

Guest 7 [01:36:19] So the bottom right one is kind of their play on a missionary, and the bottom left one is a scripture case.

John Dehlin [01:36:26] Is it feminizing a missionary?

Guest [01:36:27] A little bit,

Guest 7 [01:36:30] yeah. Yeah. And then the scripture case that's, you know, kind of bedazzled. It's all gemmed out.

Guest [01:36:36] And.

John Dehlin [01:36:37] And is the Cougar chronicle, is that BYU's main newspaper these days?

Guest 7 [01:36:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:36:41] Or is that something ancillary

Guest 7 [01:36:45] now that you're asking me?

John Dehlin [01:36:46] I was pretty sure it was the BYU Daily Universe. So I. I wonder. Either they've changed the name or this is like a maga. BYU online newspaper.

Speaker E [01:36:56] Let's see.

John Dehlin [01:36:59] And we can.

Guest 7 [01:37:00] Yeah, because you're right. It is the.

John Dehlin [01:37:02] We can ask the audience to look that up if you want.

Guest 7 [01:37:05] The Cougar Chronicle. Faith Reason in politics at byu independently run student paper.

John Dehlin [01:37:12] Okay, so it's not run by byu,

Guest 7 [01:37:16] but that's BYU students.

Guest [01:37:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:18] Okay, so it's kind of like the faithful MAGA version of the Daily universe, baby.

Guest 7 [01:37:24] Yeah, very possibly.

A Gay Mormon Promotes a Gay Fashion Brand

John Dehlin [01:37:26] All right, so what's this next video clip? Now we got some video. Is this where it gets heated?

Guest 7 [01:37:33] Well, I mean, the article itself from the Cougar Chronicle. So the next video just shows a short clip from the Instagram page that the Cougar Chronicle referenced. So it's just a teeny little short clip of some of the videos they've put out.

John Dehlin [01:37:47] Okay. Oh, gay or more men. Okay, what's that about?

Guest 7 [01:37:59] So that's the Instagram channel where they feature where Pono and this other fellow that he collabs with feature their designs. So they were in New York City asking people, you know, is Elmo gay or Mormon? Is the woman from Sound of Music gay or Mormon? So they're saying the church highlighted Pono, but what they didn't talk about was all of this stuff that he's doing online.

John Dehlin [01:38:28] Interesting. Okay. So I wonder if he's going rogue, if he's left the church or if he stopped believing, or I wonder if he. It's hard to be in New York fashion. Is it? I mean, and to be a Faithful Mormon. Especially if you're gay yourself, which I don't have. No idea. But anyway, I wonder if he's going rogue.

Speaker E [01:38:50] Yeah.

Guest 7 [01:38:50] So this is what the Cougar Chronicle said. What this post fails to inform anyone is that Pono is a gay man. That's what they claim. Who makes and promotes products which openly mock the values of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Pomo and another Pono and another gay man, Charles Robertson, founded a fashion brand called the Church of Martin. This brand's targeted demographic is gay people. More specifically, gay members, ex members of the LDS Church. On their official Instagram account, they have promoted themselves and their brand in videos posted in May and June, which mock church and Utah culture, often using primary songs.

John Dehlin [01:39:24] Okay, so I imagine Pono's going off the faithful reservation a little bit. So.

Guest 7 [01:39:31] Yeah.

Guest [01:39:31] Which is.

Guest 7 [01:39:32] I don't know how the church. I mean, did they know that before they. Because this recent article about him was this past week.

John Dehlin [01:39:40] Yeah. So I'm. I'm guessing the promotion of Pono is going to be reconsidered as of this.

Guest [01:39:47] Most likely.

Guest 7 [01:39:49] But that just shows. I mean, that's the other side. It shows why people are thinking it's controversial, for sure.

Guest [01:39:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:56] And I haven't seen the next clips that you're going to show. And generally I don't like to platform these people. But I'm guessing there's a good reason for why you've chosen these clips.

Guest 7 [01:40:07] Yes, I kept it very brief. So Ward Radio did their own rebuttal to the article about Pono. So we can just watch the short video. I think there's just three videos and they're very brief.

John Dehlin [01:40:17] Looks like Jacob Hansen's in there too.

Speaker E [01:40:19] Yeah.

Guest 7 [01:40:20] And we'll see why in just a second.

Jacob Hansen on The Mormon Controversy

Guest [01:40:22] If I would cover the, quote, Pono controversy. In a very long time, I have not received as much excitement to cover something while people are aghast to participate. So why is this a controversy? Jacob Hansen.

Guest [01:40:39] It seems like the church's PR department. It never really seems to point towards men. There's very little sort of masculine messaging in the church.

Guest [01:40:49] Yeah.

Guest [01:40:50] Now that's a little bit of a critique. My bigger critique is this, is that it always seems to be human centered. It always seems to be, hey, everybody, you can come here. Everybody belongs. We're just going to be the most belong. You're just going to feel so good. Everyone's going to love you and it's just like a big Kumbaya fest and everyone is just going to feel great here. Go to come unto Christ. It's the old mormon.org let's just analyze it for a minute.

Guest [01:41:15] So we got our boy Jesus. And it says, welcome. No matter your story, we welcome you to join us as we all try to be a little bit better, a little bit kinder, a little bit more helpful, because that's what Jesus taught. Okay, cool.

Guest [01:41:28] Now we go down and it's a loving community near you. It's sort of like, hey, look at how nice this will be for you. The idea is that the message is this church works for all types of people. That's not Christianity. That's a corporate bumper sticker for, like, the corporate get together retreat. We're all welcome here. Like, actually, Jesus didn't say everyone was welcome. He separated the sheep and the goats. And not only that, in order to be fully included into the community, you have to meet certain standards as a Latter Day Saint.

Guest [01:42:05] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:42:05] Megan, what do you think?

Guest 7 [01:42:07] So two things. First of all, Cardin admits at the very beginning that he couldn't get anyone else to come on but Jacob, which I thought was interesting. And then the second thing is that I actually found myself agreeing with Jacob in the sense that the church, especially now, is putting out this very inclusive sounding message. This is for everyone. We're in every country. We're translating our materials into every language. And. Which makes it so I would imagine a very large percentage of people who are converting to the church now have very little idea of what they're actually converting to. And I know that's not the point really, that he was trying to make, but it is the point that I heard is that he's kind of outing the church. Like, you're not being honest on your promotional materials. You're acting like everyone is welcome. And you're not talking about our policies on transgender people. You're not talking about how we excluded black people for a very long time. You're not. You're leaving all of this out. And Jacob's like, where's the real church? Where's the church I want to belong to? So I just thought it was super interesting that that's what Pono's post brought up for them.

Guest [01:43:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:29] Can I just say something that's kind of ironic here? Is that how feminized does Jesus look like? Jesus looks awful feminized. Even in the photos they were scrolling through, like, long hair. Like, I. I would say those aren't masculine features that they're, you know, and he's wearing a big flowing dress, Literally a dress with, like, robes and he's not like, flexing his muscles. Like, I think they've got a problem just with how Jesus is characterized. And they want.

Guest 7 [01:44:11] Grew up a carpenter, but he's. We never see him shaving any wood.

John Dehlin [01:44:17] Yeah, they could make muscular Jesus planing the wood or sawing the wood, but it's like this feminized Jesus with long hair, wearing a dress, basically going like this, you know? Yeah. I think it's. I think they're stuck with Jesus, and I think that's rough. Like, I want to see somebody do, like, an AI version of Jesus that's like macho, masculine Jesus where Jesus has, like, a Rambo buzz cut and a five o' clock shadow and is wearing camo and has really big biceps and is like, what, wielding a machine gun? Like, what would masculine Jesus look like?

Guest 7 [01:45:03] Yeah, not like the paintings I saw growing up, that's for sure.

John Dehlin [01:45:09] Yeah, yeah.

Guest 7 [01:45:11] I just.

John Dehlin [01:45:11] Go ahead.

Guest 7 [01:45:12] Oh, I just. I just love that he was calling the church out in, I think, a lot of the same ways that we do where they paint this pretty picture and they don't want anyone to know any of the messier parts. That's what it came across as to me.

John Dehlin [01:45:27] Yeah.

Guest [01:45:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:29] Here's. I, I was trying to. I was trying to find an image that maybe they would like of Jesus. And here, here's one that, here's one that kind of came up for me, I think.

Guest 7 [01:45:44] Arnold Freeberg Jesus,

John Dehlin [01:45:47] it's like Sylvester Stallone Jesus. It's like, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger Jesus.

Guest [01:45:53] Right, right.

Guest 7 [01:45:54] But isn't that the guy who painted Nephi on the boat and he's all ripped, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:45:59] Yeah, but I mean, that's, you know, he's got, like, the beard and he's got a more masculine, like, angry face, and he's got the, the six pack. I think that other. All they're missing is kind of the camo and maybe some tattoos.

Guest 7 [01:46:15] I wonder, a little bit of, like, dirt on his face.

John Dehlin [01:46:20] Is that unfair? Like, are we being unfair? I don't.

Guest 7 [01:46:24] I don't know. They don't. They. They mock the idea of a teddy bear Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:46:30] Yeah.

Guest 7 [01:46:30] So I don't know that we're being totally unfair.

Is Jesus a Macho-Male?

John Dehlin [01:46:33] And I just. I.

Guest [01:46:34] They.

John Dehlin [01:46:35] Obviously, the Bible has existed because it can be everything to everyone. And so, of course, you can find passages from Jesus where he separates people or divides people or gets angry, but you really have to stretch to make Jesus a macho, harsh, militaristic, masculine, modern kind of character. Because is that, Is that really the vibe of the New Testament about Jesus overall, in your view?

Guest 7 [01:47:13] No, because. And he's not separating people because they're showing genuine Christlike love. That's not why he's calling people out or flipping tables.

John Dehlin [01:47:25] Yeah. He gets mad when they're. When they're not being charitable. Right. When they're not being kind.

Guest [01:47:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:32] Which, again, I think they would say is a feminine trait. So I don't know. Let's. Let's play the next clip, shall we?

"It Doesn't Matter Why They Came To The Church"

Guest 7 [01:47:39] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:47:42] All right. I, for some reason lost my screen, so now I'll add it again and we'll play the next clip.

Guest [01:47:51] Okay, I get that. But, like, I'm a huge fan of, like, sometimes people have to come to church for the wrong reasons before they learn what the right reasons are. Isn't it okay that, you know, some girl comes to church just because she has a crush on one of the guys, but then she actually ends up making friends in the young women's program, and then she feels the spirit and she realizes, oh, my gosh, there was a depth of spirituality I was missing in my life, and now I actually want to join this church. And what started out as, like, just like, this candid high school crush kind of matures into a deeper search for spirituality. So isn't just the crush the gateway drug to spirituality?

John Dehlin [01:48:30] What made you pick that, Megan?

Guest 7 [01:48:32] Because it just furthers this conversation that they're having where they're showing that the church doesn't present its true colors when it's trying to get people to convert and that they're totally okay with that. Like, Jacob's pushing back about it, and Cardin's like, but if someone comes in under false pretenses but then becomes a member, does it matter why they got here? It's just so strange that they're saying those things so out loud in response to one possibly gay guy who designs clothes in New York that they have such a big problem with.

John Dehlin [01:49:08] Yeah, actually, if I'm just trying to be fair, I can see that perspective that it kind of doesn't matter what gets you in the door. If. If you end up getting hooked by the good parts of the church. Even if you came because you wanted charity or you wanted a handout. Like, there's plenty of people in Latin America or in the developed world that probably get interested in the church because they see white, wealthy, relatively wealthy American missionaries. But then if they get in the church and they get baptized and they get community and clean up their lives and get off drugs and alcohol or get committed to their family or even get an education. I don't. I think it's. I. I agree with the spirit of what Ecard is trying to say there personally, but it is weird to have that conversation off the back of this gender binary kind of conversation, I guess.

Guest [01:50:02] Right.

Guest 7 [01:50:02] Because what if the person who they have, you know, falsely advertised to is someone who is gay, and then they get into the church and then they're like, hold on a second. I thought y' all were way more inclusive than this, you know, so it just depends. Yes, I agree that the church does a lot of good, especially with education in places where people. People don't always have access to that. I think some of the stuff they do is really amazing. And, you know, it's holding those opposing views. They're presenting a version of themselves that is not really what someone's going to likely encounter when they get all the way into the church and start learning about all of the policies and all of the history.

Guest [01:50:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:52] And I do occasionally run into gay or lesbian investigators or trans investigators to the church, and I don't consider current Mormon culture, on average, to be a healthy place for gay or lesbian or transgender people. So in that sense, I. I don't like the idea of false representation, although I don't know that Carden was advocating for that. All right, let's play the next.

Jacob Says The Church's Corporate PR Is shallow

Guest [01:51:20] Yeah.

Guest [01:51:21] And I actually think that that is probably the general idea out there. The problem is, is that the meat never comes. Do you want to know why people all go to our podcast world? Because we actually talk about deep, meaningful things, but, like, most of the stuff is just shallow, sort of platitudinous, Weak sauce. Oh, hey, everyone's loved, everyone feels welcome. But it seems like sort of the corporate PR side of the church. It's. It's never deep. It just tends to be so shallow and again, corporate and platitudinous. The message is this church works for all types of people. The pioneers who buried their children in the plains, why did they do that? Why? It wasn't because it worked for them. It didn't work for them. It was because the church was something so important and so profound and so deep, what it was teaching them about themselves. It's almost like sacrilege, in my opinion, to treat something that is so profound that you're willing to die for it as if it's this. Well, is it working for you?

John Dehlin [01:52:28] Wow. Megan, I want to hear what you think about that.

Guest 7 [01:52:30] Well, so I saw Beau commented while that was playing that they want everyone to join the church as long as they're silent and obedient. And I really liked that comment because that, that is kind of, you know, that's what they're advocating for is. And Jacob's so bothered by it, but the church is presenting this really ecumenical, inclusive Jesus. And then they want you to get in. And then Jacob's like, but where's the real doctrine? Where's the, you know, the stuff that actually divides people? Because Jesus was divisive. My, I think actually my favorite part was at the beginning where he said they never get to the meat. And I felt that when I was a member, I kept waiting for there to be something more than just the very high level platitudes because I wanted there to be actual instruction on how to live my life, on how to love people better, on how to have better conversations, on how to parent. And none of that. I didn't find that in the church. I found, read your scriptures, go to the temple, say your prayers. And when I was up at midnight trying to decide how I was gonna approach, you know, a problem I was having with a teenager, read your scriptures and go to the temple did nothing for me. It didn't, it didn't help me. There was not an actual tool in there that helped me show up in a connection. Show up in connection versus showing up in control. That was something I actually learned from the gift of the Mormon faith crisis. Having values and what's my value in the situation? I didn't learn that at church. So again, I think Jacob's right. I just don't think that I'm agreeing with him in the way that he meant to say it.

John Dehlin [01:54:26] Excellent. Yeah, well, I have a somewhat similar take. I actually think I really relate to what Jacob is saying here and Carden, that, I mean the way he phrased it was the corporate PR is shallow. And I, I bet that if we were to talk to him privately, he would agree that most sacrament meeting talks, most general conference talks, most Sunday school or Relief Society or priesthood discussions are shallow. Now, of course he's not going to say that publicly, but I guarantee he thinks it and believes it. But it's weird that he frames it as just corporate pr. But I relate to and respect this idea of saying the church promises the meat, but it always is just sticking to the milk. And it's been doing it for a couple hundred years. Like Joseph threw out some pretty meaty stuff. And then the 200 years after Joseph has been the church watering down whatever meat Joseph came out with. So I, I, I relate to what he's saying, wanting a deeper, more meaningful discourse. It's interesting that he's showcasing the faithful, you know, Mormon YouTube channels as the place to get meat. What does that mean exactly? Like, he doesn't really address the implications of his rhetoric because when he criticizes the corporate pr. Well, who chose the corporate pr? It's the apostles. Like church leaders are chosen by general authorities. So it's God's prophets, seers and revelators and inspired leaders that are choosing Aaron Sheridan. Do you think that Aaron Sheridan is not vetted by general authorities or even apostles? Of course he is. So he's criticizing the Lord's anointed without really either realizing he is or just acknowledging that he is because he is. And he's saying that it's corporate pr, but really what it is, it's almost the entire church. And then what he's saying is we, you know, apologetic Mormon YouTubers, we're the ones that discuss me, not the church. But, but doesn't he see how he's starting to go down the road of lifting him and his peers up as the, as the, as the real meaty Mormons? And you know, if I, if I'm putting my Mormon brain on. That is the road to apostasy. That is the road to pre priestcraft and apostasy. And he's too smart to not at least know in the back of his mind that that's the implications of what he's teaching. And so I, you know, I'll be really curious to see where Carden and, and Jacob Hansen and those like them are in five to 10 years. Historically, the church doesn't treat the. This path doesn't bode well because he's. They say they're criticizing the culture, but they really are criticizing the leadership. Am I wrong?

Guest 7 [01:57:39] No, no. And I think they might be the first ones to hightail it out of there. If the church said, we're gonna allow gay ceilings.

John Dehlin [01:57:51] Yeah.

Guest [01:57:52] Or.

John Dehlin [01:57:52] Or women to, to have more responsibility in the church. Right. Yeah, I don't know for sure. I just, you know, I'll be curious to see how this plays out. The other thing is as these voices become the apologetic voices for the church, and let's be clear, you don't hear from Daniel Peterson or Louis Midgley anymore. You only really hear from Terrell Gibbons much. Or even Patrick Mason. Like these dudes. And I say dudes, they're way more popular in the church than the Patrick Masons and the Terrell Gibbons'. They're going to become the cultural leaders for the church. And I just. It's going to be interesting to see how that fares for activity rates in the church and for the church's image as Jacob Hansen and Carden Ellis and Greg Matson become the de facto cultural leaders for the church.

Guest 7 [01:58:51] Yep, I'm gonna watch. I'm gonna watch and see.

John Dehlin [01:58:57] Yeah. Well, thank you for bringing that to our attention, Megan. And I'm going to just say I have sympathy for Greg and Jacob and Carden and others and Maddie Packer. They are in their own way calling the church to be more consistent with its doctrine, with its theology. And they're asking the church to clarify things. They're asking the LDS Church to take a stand and to go deeper and to live and to speak in a way that's more consistent with Mormon orthodoxy. And in some ways, that's an act of integrity. They're saying, live up to the proclamation on the family and quit having a PR image that is inconsistent with, with doctrine, with Joseph Smith and polygamy and traditional families and homophobia and frankly, sexism. Church. Live up in your PR images to the racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted church that you really are.

Mormon Church: The Facebook Controversy

Guest 7 [02:00:14] Yep. Yeah, that's what they're saying. And I was going to use that same word. I was going to say integrity. They want the church to have integrity. They want the church to be the same on their Facebook page as they are in general conference, as they are in their general handbook.

John Dehlin [02:00:29] Yeah. So I, I, I have a soft spot in my heart for where I think they're coming from, even though I really don't like how it sometimes seems to engender hatred or anger or unhealthy social norms. But I think I get where they're coming from. So anyway, thanks for bringing this to our attention, Megan. This is a really important conversation.

Guest 7 [02:00:56] Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [02:00:57] Thank you.

Utah Prison Guards Are Sexual Assaulting Inmates

John Dehlin [02:01:19] All right, what's the next story?

Guest 7 [02:01:21] Oh, this one.

Guest [02:01:23] So

Guest 7 [02:01:25] a reporter in Utah has uncovered some allegations in the prison system there. And we're just gonna see a small portion of this, but the article says federal lawsuit alleges Utah prison and leaders covered up guards sexual assaults on inmates. And then another little screenshot. These acts occurred in blind spot areas that defendants knew were out of sight of surveillance cameras, specifically on inmate beds. Obscured by pony walls. If you go to the next slide, we'll watch a little.

John Dehlin [02:01:55] Sure. Utah prison guards are sexually assaulting inmates.

Guest 7 [02:02:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:02:03] Right.

Guest 7 [02:02:03] That's the allegation.

John Dehlin [02:02:05] Okay, let's.

Guest 7 [02:02:06] Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [02:02:07] And then there's.

Guest 7 [02:02:08] Yeah, there's a video.

Guest [02:02:09] Okay.

Utah State Prison Sexual Assault Lawsuit

Guest 7 [02:02:09] Tonight, accusations of abuse of power and a cover up inside of the Utah State Prison.

Guest [02:02:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:15] A civil rights lawsuit has been filed

Guest [02:02:17] against the Utah Department of Corrections alleging that two female inmates were sexually assaulted by two correctional officers in violation of

John Dehlin [02:02:24] the Prison Rape Elimination Act.

Guest [02:02:26] The federal lawsuit alleges the female inmates were subjected to a culture of sexual misconduct where male correctional officers exploited their authority in order to groom and sexually molest female inmates. This former inmate asked us to protect her identity, Officer Kilpak.

Guest 7 [02:02:43] And the other was Tui Palato. I think I felt like trapped and fearful and helpless.

Guest [02:02:51] The lawsuit states, beginning in February 2025, Officer Spencer Kilpak began sexually assaulting her, including touching her breasts, kissing, digital penetration.

Guest 7 [02:03:02] It just escalated and kept escalating.

Guest [02:03:06] UDC's denial for surveillance footage revealed camera blind spots. The lawsuit alleges that's where the ax occurred.

Guest 7 [02:03:14] The evidence, Kill packs, religious garments, his undergarments, his underwear were found when they

Guest [02:03:20] searched my room, the lawsuit states. She was interviewed by UDC's Law Enforcement Bureau, chained to a chair with handcuffs and shackles. Investigators informed her they had video of her exposing her nude body to Kill Pack. And his religious garments were found in her personal property. Soon after, her fear of retaliation was realized. For four months, she was held in punitive isolation, a disciplinary measure to punish inmates who violate prison rules.

Guest 7 [02:03:48] I came forward because there was nothing else that they could do. They had already done it.

Guest [02:03:52] August 18th. Executive Director Jared Garcia terminated Kill Pack for multiple policy violations. One forbids engaging in sexual or intimate contact with an offender, unlawful conduct, and more. Communications between parole board members and UDC staff yielded a phone call made by parole board member Dan Bachavoy to Doug Fossen, the UDC Prison Rape Elimination act coordinator, where this inmate was a subject of discussion on October 16th. The call lasted more than 10 minutes. One week after that call, UDC sought a special attention review.

Guest 7 [02:04:28] They were just trying to cover it up and keep me quiet.

Guest [02:04:32] Requesting the parole board release her, a process the board uses when exceptional circumstances exist. Parole board documents show she wasn't eligible for parole. On the same day, UDC requested the special attention review. Less than 90 minutes later, Chair Blake Hills ordered she be released. I spoke with Spencer Kilpak. I asked him for an on camera interview to discuss the accusations. He said, I am not interested in any interview.

John Dehlin [02:05:02] Holy moly. That is a terrifying story.

Guest 7 [02:05:09] Yeah, I pared it down a lot and there was actually a second part to it that came out and this has come out into a, like a much bigger investigation that's going on. But so basically what happened was there was alleged that Kill Pack and the other gentleman has a Polynesian last name. I'd have to read it. They were sexually assaulting, abusing inmates and they were doing it in known blind spots in the prison. And when the women started to come forward, they were put in isolation. So as their punishment. And then when they, after they were out of isolation, they're like, well, nothing else. It can't get worse than this. So we're really going to start talking about this. And they were. At least this one was suddenly let out of the prison. Like, we don't want to talk about it. We don't want to deal with this. Just, you're out, you're on parole and you're out of here. I tried to look into. So we know that Kilpak was at least wearing Mormon garments.

John Dehlin [02:06:19] Yeah. Good thing he's temple worthy, right?

Guest 7 [02:06:23] They don't say Mormon, but I don't know of anyone else who calls their underwear garments in Utah. So, I mean, they didn't specifically say that, let's be clear. But. So I was trying to look into whether the other leaders of the prison were also members of the church, and that information was harder to find. However, they're in Utah, they're white men in positions of power. So we could maybe surmise if there are people who have more information on that, they can let me know. But those ones, that was more difficult for me to find out whether they also are, you know, bishops or stake presidents in their local wards. But it just stuck out to me that he went in there and he left his garments behind, which is very cavalier, I think, to think that he could do that.

John Dehlin [02:07:11] Yeah. Like when I think about. I mean, of course we're programmed in society to have less sympathy for prison inmates. Maybe oddly, Jesus seemed to have sympathy for. For people in prison. But a woman in prison with male or female prison guards, then using their power, you're completely powerless in prison. And then to have guards sexually assaulting you, hiding from cameras, when you're vulnerable and defenseless and complete, you're not just downpowered in a normal, average, vanilla societal way. I mean, what, what power does a prison guard have over a prisoner if they say no or if they call them out or if they snitch or tell, they could, they could be denied parole, they could be abused within the system, they could, who knows whether they could be harmed like this is literally terrifying. And then the Mormon element, the fact that the guy's temple worthy, I mean, rest in peace, the gift of discernment. Of course, if Mormon stories has stood for anything, it's that the gift of discernment never existed within Mormonism and is a ridiculous mockery of reality. But the question I always have is the Mormon church or Mormon culture, does it share in the responsibility for the fact that a temple worthy Mormon prison guard would be sexually assaulting prisoners? Is that or is that just a human thing that would happen in any culture, even an atheist or a secular culture? To what extent can we pin sexual crimes like this or associate it with Mormonism? Megan, in your opinion, I think you

Responsibility for Sexual Crimes in the Mormon Church

Guest 7 [02:09:26] brought up the key is discernment. So I was taught in the Mormon Church growing up and you can look on lds.org and search discernment and you will find the same things that when someone sits down with their bishop and their stake president to get a temple recommend and be able to wear garments and go through the temple that the bishop and the stake president can discern, they will know whether or not that person is worthy. Even if the person doesn't tell them, they will have a spiritual feeling whether or not that person should be deemed worthy to go through the temple. So if they deemed this guy worthy because they have discernment, then why was, why was he committing these crimes? Why was he hurting women? If they stop claiming discernment then, and if they stop claiming that the church speaks for God, then we can hold them to the standard of everyone else. But they have set the standard. We are just holding them to the standard that they set.

John Dehlin [02:10:33] Yeah, yeah. And then I'll just add, I do believe that, that evil festers in darkness and in a kind of corrupt culture. And I do believe that because sexuality is demonized so significantly, like the whole Jasmine rapey sin, you know, sexual sin is a sin extra murder kind of controversy which comes out of the Book of Mormon, the fact that the Mormon Church has demonized literally sexuality and healthy normative sexual behavior like masturbation or homosexuality, honestly, they are inarguably normal behaviors. They are normal behaviors that, that, that have existed for millennia. They're not in and of themselves psychologically problematic. But if you demonize healthy normal sex sexual behaviors and then drive it into the darkness, teach people to lie, teach people to feel shame, it's not that I'm, I have the position that porn is good. And it's not that I even have the position that sexual, quote, sexual promiscuity is good. That's not my position. But when you demonize healthy, normative sexuality, drive it into the darkness, teach people to lie, and wrap it in eternal shame, and then when you also have a 200 year history of covering up for sexual predators, covering up for sexual misdeeds, hiding it, lying about it, and protecting abusers at the expense of victims, I do think you can create a culture of sexual dysfunction that could lead to this type of situation where a temple worthy prison guard can go to church on Sunday and take the sacrament and go to war temple night, and then when he goes to work, he's sexually assaulting men or women who are prisoners. And I'll just add, somebody wrote, Liz Wake 614 wrote, it is men or women, John. And I don't know what they mean, what comment they're responding to, but I'll just say I agree that men and women can be perpetrators of sexual violence and men and women can be victims of sexual violence. So anyway, Megan, any, any final comments on that?

Guest 7 [02:13:22] I think you're right. That's a, it's a good point to bring that up because when a person can't have normal, healthy sexual behaviors and those get demonized, then it's like Malcolm says in Jurassic park, life will find a way. And it's not always the best. It's not always the best way. It's not always the healthiest way. It ends up in the shadows. It ends up hidden. And that happened with LGBTQIA folks for a really long time because they couldn't find their partners and show love for their partners in public. So they went behind the scenes. There wasn't a lot of education. They, you know, they didn't know who to ask about things. So they were having possibly unhealthy, unsafe sex because they just couldn't talk about it. We need to be able to talk about these things. We need to be able to be open. I would never expect my children to go out into the world without any sexual education. And yet when I was growing up in the, in the church, I wasn't even told that I was going to have a period when I turned 12 by my parents.

Guest [02:14:30] Yeah.

Guest 7 [02:14:31] So, yeah, it set me up for failure in a lot of ways. I, you know, heard snippets of things here and there, and I was trying to piece it together, and that's just not a healthy way to to have sexuality and to thrive.

John Dehlin [02:14:43] Yeah. And my understanding is that Utah Lead, you know, is amongst the leading states in the nation for child sexual abuse. So there are, there are data that back up kind of this theory that I, that I have. And I'm not alone in the. It sounds like you share. So anyway.

Guest 7 [02:15:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:15:06] What a disturbing story. I hope the Mormon Church, if it has any influence at all, which we know it has almost absolute influence, can not only freaking clean up the police departments in Utah county, or at least some of them like American Fork, but also clean up the freaking prison system. Use your money and power and influence in the legislature, in the governor's office, in cities and counties, to freaking clean up the prison department so this stuff doesn't happen. What a horrific thing.

Guest 7 [02:15:44] Yeah. Just really terrible.

John Dehlin [02:15:45] Yeah. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Megan.

Guest [02:15:47] Yeah.

The Church Announces Plans to Open 55 New Missions by 2025

John Dehlin [02:15:48] All right, what's the next story now? Some good news. Right.

Guest 7 [02:15:52] I did try to go from like a more serious story to something a little lighter just so we can kind of go back and forth. But yes. So last October, the church announced that on July 1st of 2026, they were going to open 55 new missions. So that happened this week and. And a lot of faithful Mormons were super excited about it. I took all of the missions and put them out by region. And 16 of the 55 were in Africa, one of every three, which makes one of every three in Africa, which I think is not going to be surprising to any as any of us who've been following the trends of where the church is sending missionaries and where they're claiming to have their most baptisms.

John Dehlin [02:16:34] Interesting. A couple things that strike me about this list. Yeah, I would notice, I would expect Africa to be half, so I'm surprised it's as low as a third. But also, you know, Philippines, South America, Brazil, Mexico. So if you add, you know, Latin America and the Philippines and the Pacific Islands, then you're getting to more than half. And so, yeah, developed world is going to be where the church is going to have its best impact. I am curious about the 14 missions in the United States, because we're shrinking in the United States. But so you could argue from a business perspective that's throwing good money after bad as well as Europe. Like, we're also shrinking in Europe and in Canada. So you could argue that's throwing good money after bad. On the other hand, we don't like to send missionaries with mental health, bad mental health histories on foreign missions. And so you need US Missions and also you want more tithing and you get more tithing from US Missions. So I don't think US Missions are ever going to go away. The only other thing I would add is that this is clearly a reaction to the bump that the church got from lowering the mission age for women from 1918. You're going to have this temporary one or two year influx of a bunch of more missionaries, and you got to create missions for them because that's a big influx. That's basically increasing your mission mission force by 25%, I think, artificially, at least, of your young missionaries. So this is a bump, and I would anticipate that in a couple years we're going to see some of these missions being combined or removed because it's, again, it's playing with the numbers, in my opinion. What are your thoughts on all that, Megan?

Guest 7 [02:18:48] Well, the next slide talks about that.

Guest [02:18:50] Let's.

Guest 7 [02:18:51] Yeah, let's look at it.

John Dehlin [02:18:52] Excellent.

Guest 7 [02:18:52] Yeah, it has kind of a timeline. No, you're. You're here.

John Dehlin [02:18:55] Okay.

Guest 7 [02:18:56] So in October on the 24th is when they announced the new missions. And then on November 20th of 2025 was when the news broke about Wade Christofferson, brother of President D. Todd Christofferson, who was arrested on federal charges involving the alleged attempted sexual exploitation of a minor. And then on November 21, they lowered the mission age. So that's an interesting timeline. And then the article that they published on the 24th, when they announced the 55 missions, said the church is announcing plans to create an additional 55 missions. The 55 new missions, which will be created by adjusting the boundaries of existing missions, will bring the number of church missions around the world to 506, which I thought was an interesting distinction, because they're not going into new countries, they're not going into places they haven't been before. They're just taking the missions they already have and kind of shuffling them around, which is kind of what you were saying.

John Dehlin [02:19:58] Yeah. Let me just ask you, tell me what point you're making with Wade Kristofferson, how that ties into the story about missions. I just want to make sure I understand the point you're making.

Guest 7 [02:20:08] I just thought it was an interesting time. So when they announced the 55 new missions, I'm assuming they already knew they were going to lower the mission age because they're trying to prepare for it.

John Dehlin [02:20:20] Yeah, because they got. They, they weren't prepared when Monson lowered the mission age for men and women, and it was a disaster.

Guest 7 [02:20:30] So I'm assuming that's why in October they did that. Were they Planning to announce the lowering of the age on the 21st. I don't know. It just was an interesting coincidence, possibly that it happened the day after the news came out about Wade Kristofferson. So the timeline could look a little suspect if you're looking at it, where we know we're going to lower the age and we have this new story that's making us not look so good. So let's hurry and do it today and kind of overwhelm faithful social media with the lowering of the missionary age. So they're not looking at this other stuff that's going on.

John Dehlin [02:21:02] Okay, I see. And that. That we don't know. We're speculating. It could be. This is planned years in advance. But it's interesting. I'll just share a couple quick comments. Bo, our friend, Bo Euler. Bishop. Bo, how many missions disappeared while all these new ones sprouted up? Yeah, they have been consolidating and eliminating missions. So it's interesting. It's almost like they're arranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic a little bit, constantly creating. I mean it. They quietly close and combine missions and then with fanfare, they'll announce new missions. And you could argue that's a way of creating the appearance of growth without really taking accountability for the ones that have been combined or eliminated. It just creates this impression of growth that may or not be justified. Bo also says, my Salt Lake City stake was combined with the next stake. Six wards and one stake disappeared while six new wards and one new stake was created and they celebrated. So again, that's this point of like. Yeah. Of a Potemkin town when it comes to growth. Stephen Wilbur, about the past story, writes, her having his temple underwear in her cell is pretty crazy. However, John, you know, having been temple worthy, that the thought of him leaving his garments in her cell seems unfathomable. However, again, I don't know all the facts. Yeah, tell. Tell me if you got this version of Mormonism, but I was taught that there were people that. With garments around their ankle or wrist because they always wanted to have their garments on and. Or they felt it was a sin to ever put their garments on the ground.

Guest 7 [02:22:57] I was taught that not to put my garments on the floor. Like when I'm doing laundry, be very careful and intentional and make sure they never touch the floor and fold them and put them right away. Actually, Donnie and I, my husband, were talking about this the other day when we were dating and when we were engaged one time I folded some of his laundry and his garments were in there. And my sister was terribly upset that I had seen his garments while we were dating. It just was super inappropriate. Yeah, just this lore around garments that's, you know, their protection and they're very sacred.

John Dehlin [02:23:30] And, yeah, I was also taught, by the way, that you could get shot and the bullets would deflect off the garments and you could fall into a vat of steel and the garments would protect you from the molten lava steel. Anyway. All right, so what's this next slide?

Does the Prophet Sign All Our Mission Letters?

Guest 7 [02:23:49] This was just something else that came out to celebrate the 55 new missions. And it was saying, here are five things that you might not know about going on a mission. And the one that stuck out to me was, removal of healthy wisdom teeth is not required. Because, you know, I moved to Utah when I was 10 and have brothers that went on missions. And there was a surgeon there, an oral surgeon, and that's all he did, was just remove wisdom teeth so that the boys could go on their missions. That's all he did all day, every day was wisdom teeth.

John Dehlin [02:24:18] So dentists in Utah are groaning at that clarification. It's like, no, that's an important source of revenue.

Guest 7 [02:24:26] Yep.

Guest [02:24:27] Yeah.

Guest [02:24:27] Yeah.

Guest 7 [02:24:28] So I think they were just trying to make a really big deal about us. They came out with this infographic and the other one right under that says missionaries are called by the Prophet and assigned by members of the quorum of the 12. They're really trying to hone in on that distinction for whatever reason Rasband pointed out in his video, too.

John Dehlin [02:24:45] Yeah, that's a funny one. My. My brother was at the church when they created, I think, this big computerized missionary. Well, I'll tell you a quick story, Megan. This is. So I was. I. I was clearly a doubter in embryo because my. I was called a missionary when Izzote Benson, who was a cousin of mine, was prophet. And it was no mystery by 1988 that Ezra tap Benson wasn't doing well, that he was starting to get dementia. And his son or his grandson, one of the two, were even speaking out publicly about, like, quit carting my dad or grandpa around. He's not well. And you're making him look like he's not senile when he kind of is. But also, I just thought about, okay, there's 50,000 missionaries, which means if the Prophet signs every missionary letter, he's signing 25,000 letters a year. So if there's 365 days a year, he's signing a hundred. Is. Is that like 150 missionary letters a Day, like, is that even a good use of the prophet's time? You know what I mean? And so like, if the prophet's senile and he, you know, in a 95 years old, should we have him signing 150 missionary letters a day? So the MTC, I asked the mission

Speaker G [02:26:13] president,

John Dehlin [02:26:15] you know, it was like this time where all the missionaries had a chance to ask President Pinniger a question, you know, and instead of asking if he had had a second anointing or if he'd seen Jesus or whatever, you know, it was, it was. Or when Jesus is coming, when the second coming, you know, I was like, does the prophet actually sign all of our missionary letters? By the way, I was a faithful, devout orthodox missionary. I was not, not like actively doubting my testimony or faithless, but I was just curious. So I'm like, does the prophet really sign every mission letter? You know, what is it? You know, the mission president's answer was,

Guest 7 [02:26:59] oh, I'm dying to know.

John Dehlin [02:27:00] What do you guess? What do you guess?

Guest 7 [02:27:03] Oh man. He would probably say something faith affirming. Like he does feel inspired by every missionary so story and just not tell you whether or not he does. What did he actually say?

John Dehlin [02:27:15] He got a stern look on his face and he got pointy and he said, elder, whose signature is on your mission letter? And I said, ezra Tough Benson, President. And he said, then why are you asking if he signs that letter? And the truth is that he has like, like senators, like the President of the United States. There is a signature machine. Yeah, but before there was, before there was laser printers, you know what I mean? Because you could compare the signatures and know they were identical right on the letter. Anyway, that was his answer. It was to get mad at me and, and not answer the question, but instead to shame me and make me feel bad. Anyway, I'm sorry I took us off on that diversion, but I think it's kind of a fun story.

Guest 7 [02:28:10] It is a fun story. And I would have loved if you'd asked him if he'd had the second anointing, because I think he probably would have gotten a similar response.

Mormon missionaries: They're Called by a Computer algorithm

John Dehlin [02:28:18] But also this idea, the reason why I was going there, this idea that missionaries are called by the prophet and assigned by the members of the 12. That is not honest. Prophet does not, does not get revelation about every missionary's calling and neither do the apostles. The way it's set up is there's now a computer system that like channels all the people who have filled out applications into all the slots. But yes, the apostle is able to show up and sit in front of the computer screens and like, if Elder Rasband's grandson isn't called to Spain like he wants, he has the power to like, make sure that the rich people or the family members or the wealthy influential members get their kids assigned to missions that would make the wealthy influential or family connected members happy. But other than that, it's just literally computers assigning candidates to open slots based on whatever algorithm gets programmed into the computer. You know what I mean?

Guest [02:29:36] Yeah, yeah.

Guest 7 [02:29:37] They check certain boxes, you know, mental health stuff, medical things. Do you speak a language? What was your GPA in high school? And then, yeah, it just separates them out and they say, yeah, that looks pretty good.

John Dehlin [02:29:49] Yeah, yeah. So anyway, that, that is. We talk about like, again, it's Rasband that's saying, without. Without the Mormon church leaders, the world is not going to learn honesty. You know what I mean? Well, then be honest. Maybe consider being honest with your missionaries that they're called. They're called to their missions by a computer algorithm.

Guest [02:30:12] Yeah.

Guest 7 [02:30:12] Depending on how they answer the questions on their application. Absolutely. No, they did a whole behind the scenes video, but they didn't talk about an algorithm. That word was not mentioned.

John Dehlin [02:30:21] Yeah. I will say to try and be balanced, like, I love that there are service missionaries now and that young service, you know, young missionaries that may not want to serve a proselytic mission or may not have a traditional testimony can serve as service missionaries. I think we would all love to see more. More service missionaries and less proselytic.

Guest 7 [02:30:43] Absolutely.

Guest [02:30:43] Right.

John Dehlin [02:30:44] So that's a good thing, right?

Guest 7 [02:30:45] Oh, yeah, yeah. I heard actually my nephew talk about his service mission and I was like, I wish every missionary did that. He did work in the temple as part of that service mission, but the other parts where he was volunteering at soup kitchens and getting to know the people in his community, I thought it was fabulous.

John Dehlin [02:31:06] Yeah, absolutely. All right, Megan. Well, I've got about 14 minutes left, so let's see if we can clear the rest of the stories. And I know it's my rants that are making us three hours, so I acknowledge.

A Mormon Man Sets His Home on Fire Because He Said He '

Guest 7 [02:31:19] Okay, that's okay. This comes out of Rexburg, Idaho. This is Preston Rosberg. And there's his LinkedIn page where it says he was a neurobiology TA at BYU Idaho. And it also says Preston Blaine Rosberg is charged with one felony count of first degree arson, which carries the possible punishment of up to 25 years in prison or a fine of up to $100,000. So if you go to the next slide, we'll figure out why. According to court documents, on May 9, Rexburg police officers received a call from Rosberg, who was at home in the 100 block of Rosewood Drive, saying he lit his house on fire because God had told him to. So just that same thing that we're talking about often of. No one should be able to claim that they're talking to God. And also, when people claim that God tells them to do something, sometimes it's dangerous.

John Dehlin [02:32:15] Yeah.

Guest [02:32:16] And if I.

John Dehlin [02:32:16] If I'm going to just. I do. I do. I. I do have a PhD in psychology, and I have studied, you know, psychology and also, you know, mental health issues and scrupulosity and those types of things. And I will say it. Mental illness often attacks what you care about. And so you could say an orthodox or a high demand religion might cause him to feel justified in burning down a house because he associated a voice in his head with religion and with God or an angel. And there's. I think there's some validity to the harm that is done when a religion can teach you that your thoughts or your feelings are from the Holy Ghost or from God are divine. I think there is some harm that can come from that. So I will. I will. I will acknowledge that. And I will also say that there is going to be mental illness without religion, just in the human distribution. You know, there's going to be mental illness, there's going to be psychosis, there's going to be delusions, schizophrenia, and even scrupulosity or ocd. And sometimes it will have a religious manifestation at no fault of the religion, but instead, it's just mental illness that happens with people who happen to be religious. And so it's a difficult thing. You can't pin all. All harm done with a religious flavor. You can't pin all of that on Mormonism or on religion, but maybe you can pin some of it. So that's my nuanced take.

Speaker E [02:34:15] Yeah.

Guest 7 [02:34:15] And I agree. I just thought it was. I don't, you know, a news story that this. I actually felt a lot of empathy for him. He's so young and.

Guest [02:34:28] Yeah.

Guest 7 [02:34:29] Obviously struggling.

John Dehlin [02:34:31] Yeah. It's a sad. It's a sad story. And I wish. I wish him and his family well and.

Guest [02:34:38] Yeah.

Elder Gong dedicates the new Nauvoo Temple Visitor

John Dehlin [02:34:39] Okay, next story.

Guest 7 [02:34:41] Elder Gong dedicates the new Nauvoo Temple Visitor Center. All right, we'll see where this goes.

John Dehlin [02:34:47] Okay, so there's a video clip.

Guest 7 [02:34:50] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:34:50] Please play it.

Guest 7 [02:34:51] Yep. Go for it.

The New Nauvoo Temple Visitor Center

Guest [02:34:53] Nauvoo is central to our history, to our past, to our Present to our

Guest 7 [02:35:00] future elder Garrett W. Gong of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles dedicated the new Nauvoo Temple Visitor center and the Brigham and Mary Ann Young home in historic Nauvoo, Illinois, on Saturday, June 27, 2026.

Guest [02:35:15] June 27 is a triple anniversary. It's the anniversary of the dedication of the Nauvoo, Illinois temple, and, of course, is the anniversary of the martyrdom of the prophet Joseph Smith and his brother Hiram. This morning, we visited Carthage, the new Nauvoo Temple Visitor center, and media to help all of us feel that this is a place where people of faith lived, in some cases, with great sacrifice and left a legacy for us.

John Dehlin [02:35:44] Today, as you enter this visitor center, the first thing you see, even before passing the welcome desk, is a magnificent stained glass depiction of Jesus Christ. As if to welcome you and to underscore why you are here, the new

Guest [02:36:01] visitors center will help all of us appreciate the sacred temple covenants and ordinances restored by the Lord to Joseph Smith here in Nauvoo and offered in temples worldwide today. These are sacred places. We felt as though we were in the midst of history, but we weren't looking back. We were looking forward to think about the revelations and ordinances. Coming here in Nauvoo was just the most sacred, wonderful feeling.

John Dehlin [02:36:30] I'm curious what you think is interesting, but one thing that caught me was he's like, yes, we're Nauvoo, but don't look back at the history.

Guest [02:36:36] But.

John Dehlin [02:36:36] But don't look too much at the history of Nauvoo. I agree. That's a problem. But, Megan, what did you find interesting about that clip?

Mormon Church Stained Glass Window

Guest 7 [02:36:44] So I just wanted to set up the next part because I listened to that clip. I read the article, and then I listened to that clip, and they really highlighted the window, and I was like, wow, that is a beautiful window. And they kept saying, tiffany window. And I was like, tiffany? Is that, like, the jewelry store? Like, I really didn't know. So I looked it up, and it turns out that it's not the jewelry store.

Guest [02:37:08] Okay.

Guest 7 [02:37:08] It is this Tiffany stained glass window that the church bought at an auction three years ago, I think. Was it in 2023? Yeah, January of 2023 for $237,500. And I was like, wow, they really spared no expense. They didn't talk about the price, of course, in the article at all, but it was pretty easy to find once I researched it, and I just thought it was another interesting thing. I did also hone in on the thing where he's like, we're looking forward, we're not looking back. But then the window caught my eye because they're like, it's the first thing you see. And Jesus's arms are open and yeah, that inviting Jesus came with a price.

John Dehlin [02:37:52] We got a comment from Jacob Osted 5483. Not a very masculine looking Jesus, is it? So much to Jacob and, and Cardon's chagrin, we've got a feminine Jesus there. But you know, I'm torn on this, Megan, because on the one hand Christ seemed to condemn wealth and opulence and the Book of Mormon for sure, condemns wealth and opulence and materialism. And then I guess on the other hand, and I think that there's probably a place for making a really beautiful sacred place for worship that you make super nice. So I don't, I don't know. What do you think about that dichotomy?

Guest 7 [02:38:43] Yeah, I think so too. Like when I get up in the morning, if my house is a mess, it's hard for me to relax. Right. So I want it to be clean and orderly.

John Dehlin [02:38:52] But, but, but even nice, like that story of like pioneers broke up their china to then put it on the walls of the temple to make it look beautiful. Like there's something, isn't there? Isn't it okay to have sacred places be maybe a little bit zhuzhed up?

Guest 7 [02:39:13] I think that's some people's preference. That one's hard for me because I'm not really like that. I would much rather be outside sitting in my backyard while my chickens squawk and watering my garden. That feels more sacred to me. But I grew up without money, very poor family, and so maybe I'm just not accustomed to that kind of stuff. It actually makes me a little bit more uncomfortable because it's like I might break something or so I think that might be more of a personal preference thing. I think things can be orderly without and clean without being expensive.

John Dehlin [02:39:49] I mean, if we think about it, Joseph kind of fashioned these temples after the temples of old, like of the Old Testament. And those were tents.

Guest 7 [02:39:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:58] So this idea of like wealthy, ornate cathedral like temples really does come out of the Catholic Church's legacy, which ironically the Mormon Church condemned as the, the great harlot, you know, whore of all the earth for a couple centuries before it all of a sudden became okay with Catholics because it certainly wasn't Jesus that I don't think that said build temples that are super expensive. And, and I think I can resonate with the argument that wealth should be shared with the poor, not invested in 80 million dollar temples or however much they cost. And by the way, that like a single door on a temple can be a million bucks. A simple window at a temple can be a million bucks. The chandeliers can be a million bucks. Like they spare no expense. And who knows the patronage kind of contracts and backroom deals that go on about who gets to sell these doors and windows and carpet and chandeliers, who gets the contracts to sell these items to the church, and who's profiting from the tithing being distributed this way to the construction workers, etc. I think that's, you know, an important consideration. I think the biggest point is if you really love and follow Jesus, could that money be spent on things Jesus talked about which wasn't making super expensive buildings but was feeding and clothing the poor, visiting the sick?

Guest 7 [02:41:34] So yeah, well, because this isn't even a temple. It's the visitor center. It's the in between for people who are denied access to the temple.

John Dehlin [02:41:42] Fair, fair. Really quickly Bo says I'll bet McKay really likes the super white depiction of Jesus. That's referring to church historian McKay's formerly kind of some say off putting or cringy others say kind of racist comments about this, a lot of mine and black spirituals being sung at church. I do want to thank Michelle Yorbell, 17. She gave us our first and only super chat for today's episode. She writes, Happy fourth. Grateful for the freedom of America and all the freedoms living here affords us. Cheers to the freedom of speech, press and religion and the intersection of all here on Mormon Stories. Thank you Michelle. And yes, happy 4th to all of you who celebrate the 4th and who love this country. And Michelle, thank you for the donation and everyone else who supports us in whatever ways you can. And we appreciate the comments. Should we go to the next story? Yep, I guess we can't have a Mormon news story without saying some sexual abuse. This will be our second for the for the day.

Happy 4th! Super Chat with Michelle Yorbell

Mormon Church Leader Arrested for Sexual Abuse of Boys

Guest 7 [02:42:54] So this originally came out in 2024. A local youth church leader was arrested Tuesday after police say he sexually abused at least five teenage boys while giving them massage massages at his Chubbuck home, which is in Idaho. Between January of 23 and June of 24. Virgil Larsen was a Mormon church member and first counselor in an LDS ward Bishop a brick in Chubbuck, Idaho.

John Dehlin [02:43:18] Wow. And I've said this before, but if in 2026 you're letting your kids you're a Mormon Letting your kids be alone with bishops or young men's leaders or young women's leaders. I don't want to say it's your own fault, but like, man, Mormons just need to get the memo that they should never leave their kids alone with. With Mormon church leaders.

Guest [02:43:45] Yeah.

Guest 7 [02:43:45] Go to the next slide because you'll like. I pulled the parts of the article where it talks about that. How the naive ness of the Mormon population lends to this.

John Dehlin [02:43:57] Go for it.

Guest 7 [02:43:58] So three minor victims reported the abuse to their ward bishop. The investigation into Larsen was launched when the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare reported the allegations to chubbuck police on July 3rd after the agency was contacted by the Curtain McCockey Curtin McConkey law firm in Lehigh, Utah, which I thought was an interesting detail. A total of 7 children participated in forensic interviews between July and August. During the interviews, the children disclosed that Larsen was the young men's program leader for their church and would regularly contact them to play basketball at the church. On July 5, a woman met with a deputy and reported that Larsen had also been massaging her son. According to police reports, she did not think anything of it since Larsen is a trusted individual with the church.

John Dehlin [02:44:47] Yeah, and KD Ash, 96, writes, this is such a gross story. Those poor boys. And I think we all agree. What's the next slide?

Plea Deal for Mormon Sex abuser in Idaho

Guest 7 [02:44:59] So this happened just in, you know, a couple weeks ago, June 23, 2026. He, the. He was offered. Well, yeah, he was offered a plea agreement. So originally he was charged with six counts of child sexual abuse. The plea changed it to six counts of felony injury to a child, which means no sex offender registration required. Under amended charges, prosecutors will recommend probation instead of prison time. The judge will have the final approval of the plea sentence. So just interesting, I mean, kind of alarming that someone who had six.

John Dehlin [02:45:39] I mean, on the one hand, I get why there are plea deals. It's because the, the judicial system's overrun and if they can get people to plead a lesser offenses, they can more efficiently process prisoners. I just have to wonder whether, you know how, you know how, Megan, that, that, that when they found out what the question protocol was for the Mormon Church abuse hotline, and it was all questions about protecting the church, church's liability, and nothing about the victims and nothing about putting the perpetrators in jail. In fact, they were counseling people not to report the perpetrators to police. I have to wonder whether this guy got legal help from Kurt McConkey, whether the church or used its influence to help this guy get off easy and and to serve less time in part because then the church is less liable because clearly he was their young men's leader, and he was probably doing some of this abuse on church property, which is one of the things the church tries to figure out. So I would love somebody to investigate this story to see to what extent he got legal support from the church.

Guest 7 [02:46:56] Yeah, that'd be very interesting to know, right? Yeah.

Guest [02:47:00] Yeah.

Guest 7 [02:47:00] Because it seems like a pretty. He doesn't have to register if. If this goes through and no prison time, which is wild.

Guest [02:47:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:08] And that's Idaho, where the church has an undue disproportionate influence.

Guest 7 [02:47:14] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:47:15] And while we're talking about the church in Idaho, we have to say, hey, Colby. Colby Reddish has joined the chat. So one of our favorite Idahoans. So, anyway. All right, well, let's go ahead and close out these stories. That's a dark one. And again, it's like, tell me if I'm wrong, Megan. We could do a daily story on abuse accounts in the Mormon church just in Utah, Idaho and Arizona. We could do a daily show. Am I wrong?

Guest 7 [02:47:45] Yeah, For. For right now. Just what Floodlight has, I think for almost three years.

John Dehlin [02:47:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just. It's out of control. All right, next story.

Oh My! The Salt Lake Temple Volunteer Application

Guest 7 [02:47:56] This is just a really quick one. The volunteer opportunities, the Rejoice team. This is for the Salt Lake Temple open house that will take place next year. They put out this little application process you can go through if you want to be part of the Rejoice team. And they have a picture here. And if you see the back of that vest. How can I help? Looks very similar to what that other picture there is. The blue Walmart vest. I just. I saw. Rebecca Biblioteca pointed this out, and I just thought it was funny.

John Dehlin [02:48:25] That's funny.

Guest 7 [02:48:27] Not a huge story, but just funny really quickly.

John Dehlin [02:48:32] Like, should we celebrate that the church is doing service? I don't know.

Guest 7 [02:48:37] Well, I mean, they're doing service for their own ends. And this one, I mean, this is just for the Salt Lake Temple open house.

Speaker G [02:48:43] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:48:44] Okay. So it's basically guides, tourist guides for temple visits. Borrowing Walmart's how may I help you? Vests. Corporatizing a bit.

Guest [02:48:57] Their.

John Dehlin [02:48:59] Their temple tours.

Guest 7 [02:49:01] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:49:02] Yeah, it's gonna be. The. The opening of the Salt Lake Temple is going to be a huge deal, so we should just all get ready for it.

Guest [02:49:09] It.

Guest [02:49:09] Yep.

Guest [02:49:10] I know.

Guest 7 [02:49:10] I'm gonna come see it. I've never been inside the Salt Lake Temple. Every time I went as an endowed member, I Ended up staying outside with the kids.

John Dehlin [02:49:17] I went through some endowment sessions in the Salt Lake Temple when they were live. So they had old people as actors acting out what, what at the time was the, was the film.

Guest 7 [02:49:29] Yes, my first session was in Manti and it was a live session as well. Yeah, the very first time I went through, I was like, like, well, this is so weird. Why is Adam so old?

John Dehlin [02:49:38] Well, I'm gonna stop that. All right, next one.

Mormon Missionaries Test If They Will Accept a Sex Offender

Guest 7 [02:49:42] Okay. This is Nicoli Monroe. She is a US army veteran and content creator from Kentucky who went viral for a social experiment testing the charitable responsiveness of American places of worship. So that was months ago. She would call people up in churches up and she would say she had a crying baby sound in the background and she would say, we just need some formula. Can you guys just give me just even one can of formula? And she saw how churches responded. Well, now she is testing, testing your church is her new phrase to see if they will allow a convicted sex offender to attend. And she was in touch with some Mormon missionaries.

John Dehlin [02:50:20] So we're going to play the clip.

Guest 7 [02:50:21] Yep.

Guest [02:50:22] Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. Call back. So we're going to call them back. This is in Birmingham.

Guest [02:50:27] Hey Ashley, the elders over here in Birmingham, Alabama area. My name's Elder. We just got a call from some sister missionaries saying that you were interested in coming to church with us but had a couple questions really quick first and we'd love to answer those for you and see you at church. Just give us a call at this number and we'd love to hear back from you very shortly. God bless you. Have a good day. Hello?

Guest [02:50:51] Hi, how are you? This is Ashley. I just had a missed call from you.

Guest [02:50:56] Oh, yes, how are you doing?

Guest [02:50:57] I'm good, how are you?

Guest [02:50:59] I'm doing good. My name's El. I'm a missionary over here in Alabama. I just got a call from a couple sister missionaries, said you wanted to come to church with us but had a couple questions first.

Guest [02:51:09] Yes, I did. Me, my husband, an 8 year old daughter was wanting to come, but he is a registered child seconder. So I didn't know if that was going to cause any issues if we came.

Guest [02:51:19] I don't believe so, no.

Guest [02:51:21] A part of his is that he's not supposed to be around kids, but it will be me, him and our daughter. And then I just wanted to see if other people had to know about it or if it's something that can just stay between us. Like we just don't want, you know, to feel out of place or like judged or anything?

Guest [02:51:36] No, yeah, no, that's totally fine. As missionaries, we help people progress towards baptism. And so you guys are completely welcome to come to church and we can keep that between ourselves. But if you guys ever wanted to, you know, progress towards baptism, we'd have to see with their. But it should not be a problem at all. So we'd love to see you guys there. We will welcome you to open arms.

Guest [02:51:57] Okay. And another thing too, our daughter, she's eight now, but she was actually the one that he was abusing when she was 4. And we're trying to get her back into church and everything to where she could better understand that she should forgive him. She's having like a harder time with it now since she's getting older. And I just didn't know if that's something that you all could work with too, is that, you know, he repented and he asked ask God for forgiveness. And you know, God forgives him, so we should forgive him too.

Guest [02:52:22] We, we just teach about Jesus and I've, I've taught some, some children before and I've actually baptized a few of them. You know, my, my cousins dealt with some similar things. Not the exact situation, but we would love to help talk as well. But we pretty much just talk about Jesus all day. So that's honestly the answer too. And that's how, you know, forgiveness comes about and that peace of heart and that change comes is through him. So.

Guest [02:52:47] Yeah.

Guest [02:52:47] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:52:50] Wow. Dang, that's. That's a tough one.

Guest 7 [02:52:54] I know. I was listening to the Mormon Stories episode this morning where you were speaking with a gentleman who was a bishop, and he was talking about how when sexual abuse was disclosed to him, he had not been trained on how to handle it. And I feel very similarly about these missionaries. This guy is probably 18 or 19 years old and he has no idea what he disagreed to. Like, it's the lack of awareness, the lack of training is. It's not okay with, with a 300 billion dollar church, a missionary should be prepared to answer this question in a way that would protect the members of the congregation where he's trying to take these people. Yeah, you know, these, this fictional family.

John Dehlin [02:53:44] I mean, yeah. On the one hand, of course, he isn't prepared for those questions. And of course he, you know, those are horrific answers. On the other hand, he hasn't been trained. And I don't, you know, I feel mixed about kind of the mercenary nature of this kind of gotcha sort of journalism. But on the other hand, I Mean, churches need to do better with abuse and child abuse, so I can see where it's coming from. Let's play the last couple clips, and then we can make final comments. Is that okay?

Guest [02:54:19] Okay.

Guest 7 [02:54:20] Yep.

"When She Gets Baptized, Will She Be a Virgin Again

Guest [02:54:20] All right.

Guest [02:54:21] Also, she's want to know if. When she gets baptized, if she'd be a virgin again since her dad took her virginity.

Guest [02:54:28] You know, I'm honestly not fully sure. I think, because what. What. What we believe, and what I believe as well, is that at baptism, we are cleansed from all of our sins. So I wouldn't say that that's, you know, one of her sins. If she is, you know, as pure in heart, I. I'd say she can consider herself whatever she. She wants to consider herself. As for me personally, you know, I. I consider myself a virgin, even though I have. There's been some transgressions I've had, but it's because I. I feel that I've made it right with the Lord. But it's. It's honestly like a personal, you know, like a personal choice and decision, and. And if you feel right with God

Guest [02:54:59] and right with yourself, I. I agree. I think the same thing. You know, we've been trying to tell her that, but she. We had her in individual counseling after it happened, and they were kind of teaching or telling her that she didn't have to forgive him. So we just don't feel like counseling was the best place for her. You know, he still lives at home, and we're still together, and he still parents her. She's just, you know, having a difficult time with it, so we just thought getting her back into church would be. Would be the best thing for her to where she could learn forgiveness.

Guest [02:55:27] Absolutely. I agree with you. Church is the best place to be, and especially developing that relationship with God in and outside of church as well.

Guest [02:55:34] Yeah. And with her dad, like, I just want her to, you know, build that relationship back with him.

John Dehlin [02:55:40] And part of me wishes she was talking to Mormon bishops and not missionary. You know what I mean?

Guest [02:55:47] Yep.

Guest 7 [02:55:47] Same. Yeah, I just. It just shows how unprepared.

Guest [02:55:53] Yeah.

Guest 7 [02:55:54] These young missionaries are. They're out there interacting with people who are well into adulthood. And I don't. When I was coming out of Utah at 18 years old, I was not prepared for the world.

Guest [02:56:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:07] Yeah. All right, let's play the last clip. This is just shocking stuff.

Tasha Tried To Tempt Him With Her Love

Guest [02:56:12] So there's temptation out there, and it comes in all shapes, shapes, sizes, and forms. And she just happened to tempt him, and he fell for that temptation?

Guest [02:56:21] No, it's True saying Satan works in so many different ways. It's so interesting. There's so many different things that are hard for different individuals. And I mean he's been doing this for thousands of years, so. But I know that repentance is real. I know that Jesus is real. I know that through his atonement we can be healed and cleansed and changed. And I know that can happen for you and your family. And I know that you guys are capable of forgiveness and love and happiness together, unified. And that's really what the gospel of Jesus Christ is. It's the gospel of joy and happiness, reunites families together for all time and eternity in love. And it's something that is so powerful and I know that you guys are capable of that and it will come as you guys continue to work together.

Guest [02:57:03] Absolutely. Now is there anything else security wise, like we're gonna have to do or like, are we just free to come in and, and join everybody else and just be normal?

What Other conclusions Do You Draw From The Video?

Guest [02:57:13] I believe so we can talk with a couple of our other missionary buddies and see or one of our leaders. As of right now, I 100 believe that you are able to.

Guest [02:57:23] Okay.

Speaker E [02:57:23] Awesome.

Guest [02:57:24] All right, well, thank you. I appreciate it.

Guest [02:57:25] Of course. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:57:27] I mean, just to, just to name them, I mean, obviously the, the, some of the big concerns are, number one, you know, he, he's, the missionary's saying it's fine if he's a child abuser. He can come, he can be forgiven for his sins, he can get baptized. He says keep it on the quiet. Which means potentially a child abuser could get baptized with no one really knowing it. And then he becomes in the midst of members and could hurt children later. The missionary saying he's a virgin even though he's had sex is weird because it just means words can mean anything these days. Is he a mandatory reporter when she tells him that, that the kid's been sexually abused by the parent? I don't even know the laws in that state. In general, what this video is really showing is just the missionaries aren't very well trained or prepared and we know the bishops aren't either. What other conclusions do you draw from from these clips, Megan?

Guest 7 [02:58:29] Now that was the crux of it is just the idea that the church takes all of these young adults. I mean they are technically adults at age 18, but they are so unprepared for the situations that they are put in. Whether it's someone wanting to come to church as a registered sex offender or putting them in areas across the world that aren't Safe or you know, telling them they can't masturbate and then you know, they're, they're in that prime part of their life where their sexual drive could be very high. And it just all of these ways that the church does not prepare them to be 18 year olds in the world and then expects them to be out there for 18 months to two years basically alone. I mean they do see their mission president every now and again or whatever, but they're not prepared for what they are asked to do for the situations that they're put in.

John Dehlin [02:59:36] Yeah, yeah, Mormon missionaries and Mormon bishops aren't prepared. And I'll also say that I saw missionaries baptized drunk people. I saw missionaries baptize 7 year olds, people who are living with adults, unmarried. Like missionaries will baptize sometimes anything that breathes. And there's even significant rumors of like missionaries making up names and putting them on baptism certificates to just generate numbers, even going to tombstones and getting names and marriage or birth dates off of tombstones to then baptize people. Like weird stuff. So it is not far fetched that missionaries would downplay an abuser's past to meet that baptismal goal number. Especially when Quentin Cook is pressuring missionaries to break all past records in terms of missionary growth.

Guest 7 [03:00:43] Yes, they're put under all of that pressure and if they're truly believing, they believe their eternal salvation and the eternal salvation of whoever they meet is on the line. That's a lot of pressure.

John Dehlin [03:00:54] Yeah. Really quickly, let me just share a couple final super chats. Diana Fazar 5,986 writes, I love these lives on Friday. Keep them up. Thanks for the super chat and for listening Diana, and for the words of support. And then random 7113 from the UK it looks like I helped deliver safeguarding training when I was in the police and every local church took part except my local LDS ward. They refused, saying things like that simply didn't happen in the church. And obviously we know that's not true. So thank you for the super chat. And this shows why these little gotchas that this woman put together needed. Because there are churches like the Mormon Church, like the Catholic Church that just disregard best practices while calling themselves the gold standard for protecting children. It's just. Anyway, Megan, another amazing Mormon news episode. You're the best. Great job. Thank you.

Super Chats

Guest 7 [03:01:54] Thank you. Yeah, no, it's so interesting to me and I love these conversations because I want to see things from as many point of views as possible and this really fosters that.

John Dehlin [03:02:07] It well you do great work. So everyone check out General Unquotable. She does daily news updates on Mormonism. She's on all the platforms. You're also on Patreon, right?

Guest 7 [03:02:20] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:02:21] And while you're at it, subscribe and like to Mormon Stories. Thank you for those who donate here. If you value this content you want to see continue. We do pay Megan and Julia and Brooklyn and me, so your donations make this show possible. So if you value this Friday series and you want to see Continue, go to MormonStories.org donate, become a monthly donor and we'll keep going with this series. And yeah, we just really appreciate all the support. We love all the commenters. Join us every Monday, Friday. We're going to try and keep doing this every Friday that it makes sense around 9:00am Utah time. So please come back and join us. We love your comments, we love your questions. We love your super chats. We love your criticisms. Email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com subscribe and like share and we'll see you next time. Thanks, Megan.

Guest 7 [03:03:15] Yep, see you later.

John Dehlin [03:03:16] Thanks, everybody. Y' all take care and we'll see you again soon.