Mormon Stories: Ruby Frankie's Sentencing

Lauren Mathias [00:00:00] Foreign

John Dehlin [00:00:03] and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. Today we have breaking news. Today we are covering the sentencing of Ruby Frankie, eight passengers, Mormon mommy, YouTube sensation Ruby Frankie and connections coach, life coach therapist Jody Hildebrandt. Today was their sentencing. To cut to the chase, both of them have been sentenced to, I think, a minimum of four years in prison. So we're here to talk about that today. And as always, we are really honored to have with us back Lauren Mathias of Hidden True Crime Podcast. Hey, Lauren.

Lauren Mathias [00:00:49] Hey, John. Honored to be here. Always an honor to collaborate with you.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] And you're, you're Joining us from St. George, is that right?

Lauren Mathias [00:00:57] Yes, joining you from St. George, Utah, where the sentencing took place. I just, I had to travel here. I had to. Boots on the ground. It's in me. The journalist is in me. I gotta be here. Here I am.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] I love it. Well, we welcome our live streamed audience. I, I'm not dressed necessarily for a podcast, but Lauren reached out and so thanks for your patience as we just do this extemporaneously. So, Lauren, we've had you on before, but for those who are joining us for the first time or who are seeing you for the first time, why don't you tell everybody really quickly what Hidden True Crime Podcast is, just for those who don't know.

Lauren Mathias on Hidden True Crime Podcast

Lauren Mathias [00:01:40] Absolutely. Hidden True Crime Podcast delves into the hidden motives of real crime crime stories. So, so what, what creates the person? My co host is my husband, a forensic psychologist, Dr. John Mathias, who's holding down the fort right now at home while I'm traveling here. And John and I, this John Mormon stories. John and I have been collaborating quite a lot because it turns out that a lot of criminals these days, at least in 2023, and victims as well, have been LDs. And it's such an important aspect to cover and grateful to be collaborating with you and to talk about hard things. So thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] Absolutely. And for those who don't know, Lauren's kind of one of the world's experts in the Chad Dabo Laurie Vallow case and she covers many other. She and her husband John cover many other cases as well. So before we get to today's. I don't know, is it called a hearing? Sentencing hearing? Is that what it was called?

Ruby and Jody Hildebrandt's Sentencing

Lauren Mathias [00:02:42] Sentencing? Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Why don't, why don't we back up? I, I know there was some news. I think I saw some news about a statement Ruby's husband Kevin may have made yesterday about wanting her to get prison time. But for, for those who maybe have joined us for our collaborations Together. Why don't, why don't. Lauren, you start by catching us up on any, any updates from our last, maybe from our last meeting till now in if anything comes to mind and if nothing's happened, you know, you don't. I, I'm kind of putting on your spot, putting you on the spot here. But if anything has happened in the past few weeks or months, why don't you catch us up on that first?

Lauren Mathias [00:03:23] Thank you. Yeah, you know, I, yeah, I will say that not too much has happened when it comes to last time you and I went live together and collaborated on this case. I, I actually think most of the updates have come from you. You've had more victims on. Thanks. Were Jody Hildebrandt's victims or claimed that they were Jody Hildebrandt's victims. So the last time you and I were on, we learned some really terrible details about the crime. They were, it was. They. They both took plea deals and at those plea deals we learned some of the horrendous torture. And those were the court's words, you know, of these children, E.F. and R.F. the victims, a 10 year old girl, E.F. and the 12 year old boy R.F. that that happened. We learned details of this, of everything they went through today in court. They refer to it as a concentration camp. So then they pretty much said at that plea deal or at that, when they took the plea, the guilty plea, that they would both be sentenced on February 20th. And here we are. That that date stayed and that is what happened today. They both appeared, Ruby first, followed by Jody. They both gave statements before the court and it was really interesting what was said. There were differences between the two, between the two statements and, and differences between what the judge said about both of them.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] And I've got those clips isolated so we're gonna play them. So we're definitely gonna play those clips. So you were in the courtroom today, is that right?

Lauren Mathias [00:04:56] I was not. So I came to be in the courtroom today and then what happened is I reported for Law and Crime and Law and Crime happened, had an on scene reporter. So I reported during the sentencing. I was watching it live with Law and Crime and reporting for them for a couple of hours this morning. So I've yet to have breakfast, so.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] Oh my goodness. Yeah. Thanks for your work. Thanks so much for your work.

Lauren Mathias [00:05:21] Yeah.

Kevin Tells Judge He Wanted His Wife to Get Prison Time

John Dehlin [00:05:22] Did you hear anything about Kevin telling the judge as recently as yesterday that he wanted his wife or ex wife Ruby to, To get prison time?

Lauren Mathias [00:05:33] Yeah, it was, it was a statement that he made through his attorney and I Can't. You know, I can only tell you verbatim. I can't quote it, but it was through his attorney, and his attorney stated that that Kevin, Frankie, hopes that his wife is essentially held accountable and that he did indeed want prison time for what she did to the victims, to their children.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] And Kevin's filed for divorce, is that right? I think we covered that previously.

Lauren Mathias [00:06:00] That is correct. Kevin has filed for divorce. And I want to point out that they. They have been married a very long time. They met when Ruby was 18. They're college sweethearts. I believe it's been over 20 years of marriage, five children, and he has now filed for divorce. You're right.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] Okay. And do we know any updates on custody in terms of whether he has yet obtained custody of the younger kids and what if. If he hasn't obtained custody, what the relationship is. And I think there was at least one of our viewers that asks why Kevin wasn't charged as well. Any updates you want to provide around Kevin and the kids?

Lauren Mathias [00:06:44] Yeah, you know, one thing we learned in today's sentencing was that it seems like the kids are still the guardian of the state has guardianship over the children. And I was actually surprised. I thought Kevin might be the guardian. But according to what they said in court today, it sounds like the state still has custody of the victims of the children. As far as Kevin not being charged, we can certainly all speculate about whether he was complicit about. About what we saw on the YouTube channel eight passengers, how he supported his wife, how all these things. But the bottom line is when it comes to the probable cause and the charging documents that police have put out, Ruby, Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt are the ones responsible for the. They've each been charged with four counts of aggravated child abuse. And Kevin during this time was indeed living in Salt Lake City and not Southern Utah. So we can certainly all argue that he should be held accountable or, you know, we can all certainly have different opinions. But the bottom line is when it comes to the charges presented and what happened to the children, Kevin, Frankie was not there during that time and the details that surround this case.

John Dehlin [00:08:04] Okay, thanks for that. I. I also think just as a matter of update, it's worth mentioning the little TikTok video. I'm going to try and pull it up while you're kind of describing it a little bit, but a funny little TikTok video from. From Chad popped up this week. And as I'm trying to pull it up, do you want to just describe it really quick?

Chad Frankie Does A TikTok Dance Jig While His Mom

Lauren Mathias [00:08:29] Yeah, yeah. And. And this is great too, because Chad was in court today. Chad and Chad from Frankie and Kevin. Frankie were both in court today for the sentencing, and Chad's been pretty quiet, like all. All the. The Frankie children sort of have. And this week, all of a sudden, Chad decided to come out with a tick tock, or his girlfriend did. It was on. It was posted originally to her TikTok profile, and then he shared it on his Instagram, which then you shared it with me, John, and. And I reposted it.

John Dehlin [00:09:02] I'm gonna show it. I'm gonna show it right now, and then you can comment. I just found it, and this is just. I think this is somebody commenting on it, but it's the first thing that came up, so I haven't even screened this yet, but let's just go ahead and play it and see what happens.

Lauren Mathias [00:09:19] Tell me you guys can't hear everyone's jaw drop. He just did a TikTok with his girlfriend where they make fun of the fact that his mom's in prison.

John Dehlin [00:09:28] So this is a woman. It says, girlfriend. You'd love my mom. And then Chad, Frankie says, my mom's in prison, and they're kind of his girlfriend.

Lauren Mathias [00:09:37] Cameron first shared it to her, and

John Dehlin [00:09:39] I don't know why. I didn't know why it didn't play the music there, but it's basically him doing a little dance jig saying, my mom's in prison. What'd you think about that? What do you think about the dance

Lauren Mathias [00:09:49] jig, Lauren, when you sent it to me? And you're right, the music does add. They. They have a nice little song to it and they're both dancing to it. But when you sent it to me, I think what I responded to in your text, John, was there's Chad Frankie living his best life and sort of owning what's happening with his mom, you know, while his mom is about to be sentenced, you know, today. It was about then. She's now been sentenced today. Chad Frankie's living his best life and. And owning it. And at least I. In. In my opinion, I think trying to make light of it is probably healthy. If you don't laugh, you cry. I. I applaud him for just sort of owning that and jumping in on social media and doing that with his girlfriend. I. I wish him the best.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] All right, I'm gonna try it one more time here. This time I think it's gonna have audio. Let me. There we go. Okay, wait, let me show it again. Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, wiggle. Wiggle, wiggle. All right. Yeah, so that. That got the point across. Okay, so. So those are a couple updates anyway. Anything else before we jump into today?

Lauren Mathias [00:11:04] I think you covered it. I think you covered it. We're seeing a few of the Frankie children on social media coping. We're seeing Kevin Frankie making statements through his attorney. And we've all been awaiting today.

Adam Paul Steed in the Courtroom

John Dehlin [00:11:15] All right, so. So what I've got now is. Is the footage is the coverage of what happened inside the courtroom today. Do you want to. Do you want to say anything else? Who is actually in the room other than, you know, Chad being there? Did you say Kevin was there? I may have missed that.

Lauren Mathias [00:11:37] Kevin was there. Chad Frankie was there, according to people that were there. That's what they told me.

Speaker C [00:11:43] And.

Lauren Mathias [00:11:43] And then, you know, Adam Paul Steed was there. Adam Paul Steed, who is a victim of Jody Hildebrandt as well, was actually. He told me that the prosecutor invited him to come and sat him on the front row with his dad and family.

John Dehlin [00:12:02] And I'll just say, for those of you who don't know, one of the most important interviews I've ever done, I think, is with Adam Paul Steed. And we received a cease and desist letter telling us that if we didn't take it down, we would be sued. And I'm really bummed. We don't have the money right now to fight multiple lawsuits. And so I regret that we had to take that down. Someday I hope to be able to put that back up, maybe in an edited form. But our love and our support goes out to Adam as a victim of Jody Hildebrandt, and we regret that we had to take that down. But I'm so happy. And we've got a clip of Adam here as well, in addition to the interview he just did with you. If you want to hear an interview with Adam Paul Steed on Hidden True Crime just about an hour ago. Make sure and check that out after. After you check this out. Okay. All right, so should we jump? What I have first is sort of Ruby coming in to the courtroom and the judge sort of beginning kicking off the sentencing hearing for Ruby. Should we start there?

Ruby Frankie's Court Sentencing

Lauren Mathias [00:13:09] Let's start there.

John Dehlin [00:13:10] All right, let's do it.

Speaker D [00:13:13] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to district court. We're here for sentencing in the matter of State of Utah versus Ruby Frankie. Ms. Frankie is here with Mr. Winwood. Mr. Clark and Mr. Shum are here for the state of Utah, and we are ready to proceed with sentencing.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] And we're thankful along crime for this

Speaker D [00:13:36] Council, the terms of the sentence were agreed to as part of the plea agreement, correct?

Speaker E [00:13:42] That is correct.

Speaker D [00:13:43] There is a pre sentence investigation report in the matter. I have reviewed that. Everyone has seen it.

Speaker C [00:13:48] Yes.

Speaker D [00:13:50] What about restitution case? Council, before we move on with other

Speaker E [00:13:53] matters, we'd like to leave that open at this time. Your honor,

Speaker D [00:14:00] the

John Dehlin [00:14:02] really quickly could you explain to us what you know about this restitution question? Lauren, it's asked in both. And you may not know you're not an attorney, but just in case you do.

Lauren Mathias [00:14:12] Yeah, and you know, it was a little bit fuzzy for me. It was a slow on my end, so I didn't completely hear what was being said by the. By the judge. But if it's about restitution, are we referring to restitution for the victims? Maybe you can really recap and I can explain what it means.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] Okay. All right. Well we'll just keep playing and, and see what what was said. But this is the judge asking about restitution so

Speaker E [00:14:37] I can get into that. I might be more comfortable if we approach to get into that.

Speaker D [00:14:40] Is there an agreement that restitution that we reserve that and for what period of time?

Speaker E [00:14:49] Eight months is what we're anticipating. But, but I. I haven't talked to. To the defendants council about that.

Speaker C [00:14:55] We haven't discussed that. Your honor.

Speaker D [00:14:57] Is there any objection?

Speaker C [00:15:01] No.

State Attorney's Position on Child Abuse

Speaker D [00:15:02] All right. What's the state's position regarding sent.

Speaker E [00:15:12] Your honor, the stage. I'll stand up. The state respectfully requests that the court sentence Ms. Frankie to consecutive prison terms for each of the four counts of aggravated child abuse. The sentence was agreed to by Ms. Frankie in her plea agreement and is also recommended by probation and parole. She committed horrible acts of child abuse. From May to August in 2023, Ms. Frankie and her business partner held her two children, ages 9 and 11, turning 12 in a concentration camp like setting. The children were regularly denied food, water, beds to sleep in and virtually all forms of entertainment. They were isolated from others and were hidden. When people came to visit the house where the children and the defendants were staying, the children were forced to do physical tasks like carrying loaded boxes up and down stairs and wall sits or sitting against a wall without a chair or stool for hours at a time. They were also forced to do manual labor outdoors in the extreme summer heat at times without shoes or socks. They were forced to stand outside on a cement patio in the summer heat for hours and even days at a time. They were beaten and the 12 year old was regularly bound hand and foot after he attempted to Run away in mid July. Both children had extensive physical injuries from the abuse that required hospitalization when they were found. The injuries from the binding to the 12 year old are particularly awful. In addition to physical abuse, the children were emotionally abused to the extent that each believed to some degree that they deserved what was being done to them. Had the older of the children not had the courage to run away and ask an to call the police, heaven only knows how much longer he could have survived in that situation. After being caught, Ms. Frankie has shown considerable remorse, as evidenced by agreeing to serve consecutive prison terms and being willing to cooperate with the state against Ms. Hildebrandt. However, given the severity of the abuse she inflicted, consecutive terms are appropriate in this case. As the court's aware, Section 76, 3, 401 lays out factors the court takes into account in determining whether consecutive or concurrent sentences should be imposed. Those factors are the gravity and circumstances of the events, the number of victims, and the history, character and rehabilitative needs of the defendant. As agreed to in the plea agreement and as recommended by adult probation and parole, consecutive sentences are appropriate. This is due to the severity of the abuse to both victims. It could be argued that Ms. Franke should receive a lesser sentence than Ms. Hildebrandt because of her remorse and willingness to cooperate with the state. However, the board of pardons in parole will have broad latitude and will be able to take those facts into account when it determines how long each of the co defendants will remain incarcerated. In conclusion, we respectfully agree requested the court go along with what was agreed to in the plea agreement and is recommended by the operation parole and impose consecutive sentences.

Speaker D [00:18:21] Thank you. Anything else from the state?

Utah Criminal Court: Ruby Hildebrandt and Jody

Speaker E [00:18:24] No, your honor.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] Okay, a little bit of legal gobbity gobbledygook there for those who aren't into that stuff. Lauren, do you want to kind of summarize, if you, if you will, what we just heard and then share any reactions you might have?

Lauren Mathias [00:18:40] Yes, yes, I'll share. We just heard. And then I do want to actually talk about the restitution too. I have some interesting things to say about that. So really what we're hearing is, is the prosecution laying out exactly what these, these children, these victims went through. We, we've been through this with the plea deal. When they took a plea, we heard these egregious, horrible details. And he's referring to them once again, that the 12 year old was tied and in the most horrendous ways. Hogtied is what, you know, documents stated they refer to the sun. I thought it was interesting, the use of concentration camp. That's a new term we had not yet used. We have heard torture, we have heard some horrendous things, but this is the first time I've heard concentration camp and I think that's an appropriate term here, that these children suffered immensely and that they believe that this was their fault as well, that, that these were their sins and, and that they brought this severe abuse onto them. The sweltering heat. Let's remember just how hot the sun is in St. George. Right by Las Vegas, Death Valley. Working outside, having to do work day in and day out. And again, the 12 year old being tied up, no food, no water, just going through what exactly these children suffered.

John Dehlin [00:20:03] Yeah, I should have probably given a content warning about that. But you know, that's. And, and there they reread most of that. For Jody Hildebrandt sentencing as well. I cut off the beginning of it because it was repetitive, but I kept some of the end because he had some stuff there. What's. What can you explain people the conversation around consecutive versus I guess parallel sentencing and why that's important?

Lauren Mathias [00:20:30] Yeah, so they've each. Originally the charges were six counts of aggravated abuse, aggravated child abuse. They were both originally charged with six counts. When they both took the plea deals, two counts were dropped and they now both face four counts of aggravated child abuse, which are second degree felonies in the state of Utah. So at that point each, each count holds a certain number of years. One can be, you know, sentenced to in prison. So consecutive would mean, do you do those counts back to back, you know, finish one, then go to the other, then hit the other? Or do you serve them all at the same time? Almost. So they're saying. So consecutive would be a harsher sentence, in other words.

John Dehlin [00:21:23] And because there are four counts that are, that are remaining for each of them and the minimum, minimum count is one year, it sounds like that they're each likely gonna to be sentenced for a minimum of four years each. Maximum of what?

Lauren Mathias [00:21:41] 30. Maximum of 30, which is a little confusing. So if you do the math, it makes sense that the, the minimum would be four years each behind bars. Then if you do the math, it looks like it's going to be 60 years. What I originally thought, but I've learned because of Utah law, the maximum that they could serve behind bars is 30 years.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] Okay. And they're in their 40s or 50s. Right. And so that, that would put them in their, I don't know, 70s, 80s, is that right?

Lauren Mathias [00:22:09] Ruby is 41. Years old, born in 82. January 82. So that puts her at 41. And so that would be. Yeah, she'd be in there until she was 70, if she got the maximum.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] And then it sounds like the prosecutor was saying that it could be argued that Ruby deserves a lighter sentencing than Jody. Is that what I heard?

Lauren Mathias [00:22:31] Yes, that's exactly what you heard, which is really interesting. And I think that this was the trend throughout the entire sentencing. There were two sentencings, right? There was Ruby's. It was completely separate. And then following Ruby sentencing, they then went into Jody's. They were, they were they what? This wasn't one hearing. It was two separate hearings.

Speaker E [00:22:47] Hearings.

Lauren Mathias [00:22:48] And the. The. There was definitely a trend of people, whether it was the prosecution, whether it was the judge, whether it was statements in court or after court in the press conference, that Jody was more responsible, that Jody was the therapist, that Jody has been showing the least amount of remorse that, you know. So is that Jody is a risk. That's certainly something we saw throughout the day. And they definitely separated the two as far as risk factor and who is most responsible. And they certainly pointed the finger at Jody today.

John Dehlin [00:23:25] There's. I'll just share a couple quick comments. We appreciate all the comments coming in. Linda ask, was Sherry Frankie there? And then Twyla. Twyla Reese responds. Sherry, Chad and Kevin were all there. So thank you.

Lauren Mathias [00:23:41] Thank you.

Mormon Stories: Jody's Statement

John Dehlin [00:23:41] Twila, do you confirm that? Is that your understanding as well, Lauren?

Lauren Mathias [00:23:45] That makes sense. I had heard that Chad and Kevin were both there, and I wouldn't be surprised if Sherry was also there. So thank you for clarifying that.

John Dehlin [00:23:52] Okay. And then Deborah writes, I believe Jody deserves more time due to one, being a professional and two, showing no remorse. And we'll get to that in just one second. Okay. Yeah, everyone's. Everyone. Thanks for Twyla. Also reminding everyone to please be. Please hit the like button. Whether you're on Hidden True Crime live stream or Mormon Stories live stream on YouTube or on Facebook, please subscribe to these channels. We always appreciate your. Your becoming monthly donors to our shows respectively, or your super chats. All of that is how we keep going. Okay. I think the next part is where Ruby is going to read her statement. I think that's. I think that's what we have next.

Lauren Mathias [00:24:36] Okay, so this is a big deal.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] Anything else? Anything else? Before we jump to that, Lauren, I

Lauren Mathias [00:24:41] think we mostly talk about it after. I'm sure we'll all have a lot of things to say, but this was a big deal, big part of today.

Ruby Franke Accepts Her Sentence

John Dehlin [00:24:47] All Right. Here's. Here's Ruby's statement lward.

Speaker C [00:24:53] Thank you, your honor.

Speaker F [00:24:55] Good morning.

Speaker C [00:24:57] In my few comments this morning and the comments my client wishes to make in a few minutes, we are not suggesting, nor are we asking, that the court deviate from the stipulated sentence contained in the written plea agreement. I want the court to know that through introspection and reflection, Ruby Franke had become a serious student of her own actions. In the very early days of my involvement with Ruby, she was somewhat defensive, and she was still very much indoctrinated into a philosophy that was destructive. Fortunately, Ruby came to the stark realization of the errors in her thinking patterns and subsequent actions. To say that she was horrified by this realization would be, to put it violently. I have marveled at how quickly Ruby abandoned her defensive stance and moved toward her total acceptance of her actions and to her sentence today. So far, she has used her time in jail to unwrap the layers upon layers of disposal, deceit, and deception thrusted upon her over the last four years by an unscrupulous individual. Ruby realizes that she still has work to do in shedding those thinking errors and to re. Establish a better and correct pattern of thinking and behavior. Ruby realizes that changing her thinking re establishing relationships and healing are not simple or easy tasks. However, she is committed to doing that work. I would like the court to know that Ruby Franke is a delightful, respectful, and responsible person. She is open to feedback and addressing the consequences of her actions head on. And now ready to address your honor and accept your judgment. Thank you, judge Walton.

Speaker E [00:26:44] Thank you.

Speaker D [00:26:45] Ms. Franke has a statement she'd like to make.

Speaker G [00:26:48] She does, actually.

John Dehlin [00:26:50] I. I want to pause before we get to her statement and just respond to what we just heard. There's a lot of comments coming in. I'll just share one. S.L. conley writes, I don't buy that she's totally taking responsibility. You know, there are others that are basically saying, was she sorry when she was abusing the kids? But if I can just read my notes, they're saying, no deviation from the plea agreement, that, that Ruby's been a serious student of her actions, that now she's claiming to have been indoctrinated. It's almost sounding like cult language. They're basically framing it as Jody Hildebrandt is a cult leader, and Ruby was indoctrinated into Jody Hildebrandt's destructive cult. That once, even though she was defensive at first, once she woke up, she was horrified when she realized what she had done. Then she moved to acceptance and again, they're calling her deceived and that Jody Hildebrandt was guilty of deceit and unscrupulous behavior. Yeah. What do you think about that, Lauren? Or do you have any. Anything to add there?

Lauren Mathias [00:28:00] I concur. That's exactly how they're framing this. Whether you want to believe it or not is up to each of us, but they're certainly framing it at least Ruby's attorney is that she was a victim of. Of not just Jody, but I would say a cult or a cult mindset that she was brainwashed, that she believed in something that, you know, that she was in distortion but not. Not Jody's kind, you know, that she had a distorted sense of thinking. I actually did find it interesting how many times people use the word distorted today. But yeah, that. That this was Jody's sort of mind warp on Ruby and that she in many ways is a victim to her. That's certainly how they're framing it.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] There's great, great comments coming in. Not super Ruby friendly, but I'm just gonna, I'm gonna share a few of them. Solitaire Smith says she's only sorry she got caught. So not giving Ruby the benefit of the doubt there. I don't blame anyone for their reactions. Lisa Marie writes Ruby was abusing her children on YouTube long before Jody came along. Jody wanted Ruby's 2 million followers. So, you know, again, they're saying Ruby's abuse can't all be laid on on Jody. That's an important point to at least highlight. Kay Louise writes, ruby is saying what she needs to say to get out of this mess. Well, it looks like she's not getting out of the mess, but I mean, maybe to minimize the ultimate sentence. I think that might be the play going on there. What do you think about that, Lauren?

Lauren Mathias [00:29:45] Yeah, I mean, it is true. We one of the biggest problems that Ruby has for herself and I think it's fair to judge her because we saw her as a mother do some really cruel things to her children on her 8Passengers YouTube channel. And I think that's going to be a really hard thing for much of the public to look past. Jody wasn't around during those times. I mean, you could say that she was still under the influence of connections back then or learning because there were actually quite a few years that she and Kevin were involved in connections. But the bottom line is I think a lot of people are going to harshly judge Ruby and not believe her apology a because of the abuse that was put on these victims. It's Hard to imagine any mother being okay and being that brainwashed that you would do that to your own children. And B, we've seen cruelty of hers online on her YouTube channel. And many people also speculate, well, if she did that publicly, what was she doing behind the scenes? Clearly, we're learning. So that's what she has. That's hard for us to get past.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] Yeah. And I'm. I'll just add that, you know, and this is a sensitive thing that, you know, clearly most faithful Mormons don't abuse their kids anywhere at all, let alone anywhere near this. I do think that. I do think we've covered before that, that Jody Hildebrandt certainly and Ruby were, number one, operating under a lot of what they perceive to be teachings, Mormon doctrine, end times teachings, teachings about the law of chastity and morality. And we know that, that Jody Hildebrandt was frequently referred to couples and individuals and even youth by other Mormons or Mormon bishops or Mormon leaders. It would be interesting to see if any of their statements reflected something that actually touched on orthodox Mormon doctrine and theology or practice versus just putting it all on Jody. Because I think Jody built upon if. If, if nothing else, unhealthy interpretations of Mormon doctrine and theology. What. What do you think about that?

Lauren Mathias [00:32:02] Absolutely. Absolutely. There was religious abuse involved and religious manipulation throughout this entire thing. I mean, just the fact that these two young victims believe that they were at fault and that they were possessed. I mean, it's very. It's sounding, you know, you call me a Daybell expert, I can't help but see the similarities between JJ and Tyler, the victims in that case, children, two young children who were allegedly zombies or possessed. This is clearly. This clearly has a religious base to. To the abuse. And the fact that Ruby, I mean, let's say, like, you know, let's say that she believed Jody Hildebrandt. She. That she believed then that children could be possessed. She believed that she had to have believed a lot of these religious aspects about an extremism of accountability and that, you know, this. I can't get over the fact that the 911 call. There's this sweet man who I've heard was home because he was sick that that RF ran to when he escaped Jody Hildebrandt's house on the 911 call. I've listened to it so many times. The man on the phone says, this young boy believes it was his fault. And you hear the 911 operator, muffled under her voice, speaking to herself, going, oh, that's so Sad. And I think that this absolutely has to do with my sins are my fault. This is my problem. I need to suffer. I need to show accountability. And I am a bad, evil person. And religion is at the base of this entire crime or crimes, I should say multiple counts.

Ruby Hildebrandt on the Child Abuse Case

John Dehlin [00:33:53] Yeah. Yeah. So I hope that one thing this leads to is the Mormon Church clarifying its doctrines around end times, worthiness, law of chastity, and maybe even standards for therapists that are allowed to practice within the community, that are referred to by church leaders or the community that are sometimes even subsidized, but by church finances. I hope this leads to kind of a cleaning up of mental health services and practices within Mormonism. I hope that's a positive outcome from all this.

Lauren Mathias [00:34:35] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] Yeah, agree. All right, let's hear what Ruby has to say.

Speaker G [00:34:48] Thank you, Judge Wall.

Speaker D [00:34:52] You don't have to bend down then.

Speaker G [00:34:53] Okay, thank you. I would like to make a statement without any intent to change my stipulated sentence. For the past four years, I've chosen to follow counsel and guidance that has led me into a dark delusion. My distorted version of reality went largely unchecked as I would isolate from anyone who took challenged me. I was led to believe that this world is an evil place filled with cops who control hospitals that injure, government agencies that brainwash, church leaders who lie and lust husbands who refuse to protect and children who need abused mother. My choice to believe and behave. This paranoia culminated into criminal activity for which I stand before you today ready to take accountability. Jody Hildebrandt was never my business partner nor was I ever employed by her. I have never received wages from her or connections. Jody was employed as my son's counselor in 2019. And in 2020, I paid her to be my mentor. It is important to me to demonstrate my remorse and regret without blame. I take full accountability for my choices and it is my preference that I'll serve a prison sentence. Thank you to the officers in Santa Clara and the Ivan City Police Night however, Brian Polufo, Cy Pitkovit, Mike Pandoyo in Tolber, John Ward D. Lewis and Chief Flowers. You were the angels who came and saved my children. I especially want to thank Detective J. Bate. She plucked me out of a situation I didn't know how to get out of. And the moment she hand kept left me was the moment I gained my freedom. You were not the controlling ones. I was. Thank you to the medical staff at Intermountain Hospital. Your skill, tenderness and professionalism helped heal my children. Jody and I inflicted the injuries not the hospital. Thank you to dcfs, the Children's Justice Center, Judge Basel and other key adults. You've gathered my children under your wing and offered them love, compassion, encouragement. You were not the ones who were doing the brainwashing. Thank you to my bishop, Tom Hawks, and my stake president, Jim Nelson, for reminding me of the Lord's love for the lost. So much pain and suffering would have been avoided had I followed and heeded your counsel. I was the one who was deceived, not you. Thank you to the Washington County Prosecutor's office, Ryan Shaum, the legal assistants and discovery clerks, Eric Clark. You exemplified to me how justice and mercy are meant to coexist. My charge charges are just. They offer safety to my family, accountability to the public, and they did show mercy to me. Thank you to my attorney, Lamar Windward and his staff. I would not be where I am today without them. Thank you to Randy Kester for your limitless energy in healing my family. My dear friends Pam and Roy. I'm so sorry for letting you down. Because of your association with me, your innocence was called into question. My mother in law, father in law, Kevin's family, my cousins, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews and neighbors, you all saw the warning signs long before I did. And you did what you could. You wanted to help, but I pushed you away. My mother and father, I have been utterly wretched to you. You have offered me unconditional love and for that, I have offered you unconditional contempt, my siblings and their spouses, because of my decision to roll around in a pigsty. I have drugged your family through the mud in public. Yet when I desired to return as a prodigal sister, unlike the prodigal's brother in the Bible, you sinked step with my parents and ran out to greet me. Your capacity to love is unprecedented. Kevin, my husband, was more than 23 years. You were the love of my life. I'm so sorry to leave two to finish, but we both started together. The ending of our marriage is a tragedy and a love wrapped around my heart. And I'll never be able to undo. My babies, my six little chicks, they were part of me. I was the mama duck who was consistently lute to safety. I can smile. Over the past four years, I was in a deep undercurrent that led us to danger. Into darkness. Knowingly, I was so disoriented that I believe dark was light and light was wrong. I would do anything in this world for you. My will was to sacrifice all feelings masterfully manipulated into something very Ugly. I took from you all that was soft and safe and good. That took from your mother. How terrifying this must have been for you. I want to tell your souls. You are. You're so precious to me. I'm sorry. My choice to live in fear of the world has created a great vulnerability and a blind spot for me where I have broken hearts and I've caused people to suffer and I have betrayed sacred trust. Watching my community respond to my charges with justice and mercy and grace and love. There's all no evidence to me how long I've been. This world is full of really good people. Finally. I'm sorry for twisting God's word and distorting his doctrines. My greatest desire is to stand. Standing his court someday, spotless and confident. Judge Walton, I know that standing before you today is a necessary step towards that end. Thank you to you and your staff for facilitating my opportunity to take accountability and to answer for my charges. I am humbled and willing to serve a prison, a prison sentence as long as it takes to continue unraveling all of this information. I have believed and bought, swallowed and acted out and for my family to heal and for the community to heal. And I understand this is going to take time. I'm committed to continuing my learning until all of my toxic layers are shed and I am ready to re. Enter as a contributing member of our beautiful society. Society. Thank you, Judge Bolton.

Responsibility statement

Vicious Comments on Ruby Frankie's Statement

Speaker D [00:43:22] Thank you for your statement, Ms. Frankie. Anything else, Mr. Winwood?

John Dehlin [00:43:28] Wow. Okay.

Lauren Mathias [00:43:30] Wow, right?

John Dehlin [00:43:31] That's a lot. I'll just say okay at the outset. I'm just going to share a quick reaction. Is that okay? Lauren?

Lauren Mathias [00:43:39] Please, please.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] Just the way I'm wired. I. I tend to trust people when they're expressing remorse or regret. My. My inclination is just like, it's sincere. You know what I mean? Having said that, I'm reading through the comments. People are so vicious. Not vicious, but they're just skeptical, you know, Zero writes, are her pants on fire yet? Jane Ballard writes, the Ruby Frankie Show. That statement is total bs. Monica writes, not babies, your cash cows. That's what they were and are to you. You know, people. Some. Somebody says, the Mo Porter writes, you're a part of me. That's so disgusting. It's so controlling. Fire. Opal is mad that she called herself a mama duck and called the kids her chicks. Lamisa writes, this woman is dangerous. We've got Alan Zabrisky saying that these fake tears are like Mormon apostle Henry B. Eyring just on and on. Super vicious stuff. And I would just say I'll just say this. I don't and I've gotten in trouble in the past for get, you know, showing any sympathy or empathy for Ruby, Frankie, for giving her any benefit of the doubt or, or credit for apologies or for contrition. But how would we know if she was sincere or not? And how can we know she's not truly contrite, that she's not sorry? I, I, why isn't that a credible heartfelt apology? I, I'll ask that theoretically, but now we'll just turn the time over to you to give your first reactions.

Lauren Mathias [00:45:43] I like that I'm going to ask this theoretically, but go ahead. Lauren. No, first off, I, I want to say thank you for humanizing someone. I think that you should never apologize, John, for, for giving people the benefit of the doubt or having empathy or sympathy for someone. We need more humanizing in this world. To our viewers right now who are angry, they are also rightfully angry. This is someone that hurt children. And adults are supposed to protect children, especially their mother. And it's heartbreaking and devastating to read with these children went through. So I have empathy for everyone and all the varying opinions and thoughts here separate from that, let me just put on my journalist hat and, and say simply, it's good that Ruby gave this statement. Whether we believe it or not, it was the right thing to do. And I think we can, that's where maybe we can find common ground. And I'll agree that there was no other way to give a statement but to say she is sorry and to say she has remorse, whether it's real or not. Thank goodness she gave that statement. I, I did appreciate other people who thought it sounded like she was at an Academy Awards giving an Oscar. You know, I'd like to thank the police officers who arrested me and I'd like to really thank those that, you know, it was like a thinking thing and it was, it was a little odd at times, all of the thinking. But she, especially when you compare it to her co defendant. I can say that with sincerity and it doesn't even mean I feel sorry for her, but I can say with sincerity, I am so glad that this is the route she took and that she took the time to address the court and to say she is sorry because that's the only thing she could do. Could she have done a better job? Maybe. Sure. But she did it. She said she was sorry and I'm glad she did that.

John Dehlin [00:47:50] Okay. All right. Thank you for that. Really quickly, what, what are your thoughts around? I'm Going to go through just some of the things she said. I'm gonna go in reverse order. What's that?

Ruby Frankie's Prayer for Religious Forgiveness

Lauren Mathias [00:48:02] Okay. I said, yeah, there's a lot to unpack.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] Yeah. So she, she ended by talking about distorting Gods words and doctrines. Something. I mean, people are complaining about how distorted the audio sounded. It was, it did. It was hard to hear a lot of the things she was saying, especially towards the end. But towards the end she talked about distorting God's words and doctrines and that hope. She's hoping someday to stand before God and be forgiven. So I think that's worth starting because that's where she ended. This was basically a plea for religious forgiveness, right?

Lauren Mathias [00:48:42] Yeah, absolutely. It shows just how religious she is and, and how religious it is. And her, her way of thinking is very religious centered. And so it also shows, I think, how religion plays such a big part in these crimes. I found it interesting that she's still using the word distorted, right? I. I so often want to know. She used it so many times. I'm like, are you doing this on purpose or is that just your lingo to use the word distortion? Which is Jody's way of saying you're living in distortion. You're living in distortion. It's this brand word for connection. And for Jody Hildebrandt to use it in her sentencing, I thought was really. I don't even know if. I guess I did think it was a little peculiar. It left me curious. Was that on purpose or is that just simply a word that she knows well now? And so it's part of her. Her lingo. So to say that she was in distortion with Jody Hildebrandt and distorted God's laws and God's. You know, it's hard to. I mean, I wish you could just simply say, this is where I have a hard time. Her own moral compass. That's what worries me about Ruby Frankie, if I'm going to be really honest, is I don't know if you need God to have a moral compass. Right. If God helps you to live a better life, than great. But it would be nice to hear a little bit more about how she realizes that what she did was just really, really bad because of her own integrity and these feelings inside of her. But she does frame everything in this sort of religious. It teaches you a lot about how Ruby Frankie thinks. But hey, if that's how she views the world, then she's using religion to apologize to. I get it. But I wish that we'd hear more of just a basic Moral compass. Sorry too.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] And I'll, and I'll say stuff I've said before but you know, she calls it the distortion of God's word and his doctrines and his teachings. But we all know from, from the Mormon context the Book of Mormon calls sexual transgression next to murder in severity. That feels like a distortion in the modern world. We just interviewed a really important Mormon Stories interviewee that was reportedly kidnapped and taken to a troubled teen center and by her account was abducted and was mistreated in very severe ways. Her only crime was having premarital sex with her long term boyfriend. But her parents, her Mormon parents had her basically sequestered her and, and submitted her to this troubled teen center for months because in their minds she had committed the sin next to murder by having sex with her boyfriend. And I bring that up not to derail but because Jody Hildebrand is not the only Mormon therapist along the Wasatch front or anywhere that encouraged severe treatment of teens and adults for anything that comes close to what the Mormon Church would deem as sexual transgression. And that's a distortion that is not dependent on Jody Hildebrandt. That is, that is ubiquitous amongst Mormon culture in 2024 that I personally would love to see called out. And it just seemed I was disappointed and I didn't expect it because who's going to turn on their host religious culture especially in a moment of distortion. Sorry, in a moment of like contrition, you can't expect Ruby to say the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints distorted teachings around sex and sexuality and forgiveness and repentance are the core problem here. I guess part of not to hate on the church, but that's what I wish that would have been included.

Lauren Mathias [00:52:43] Yeah, no, thank you for calling that out. I appreciate you saying that and calling it out. I also want to point out, you know, the God should never ever be in therapy. And this is one reason it is so easy to religiously abuse people or to use God. You know, and if, if God's laws can be so easily twisted, then maybe again we should stick to just what we know to be right and good and use more, you know, logic in our, our inner thoughts and emotions to understand that. I thank you for calling that out, John. And you know, there is a big, there is a big reach now as you know, with people trying to bring God back into therapy and it's really disturbing to me.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] Yeah, yeah, that, that, that shouldn't be there. Really quickly, were you repulsed by this idea of her calling Herself, mama duck and her kids chicks. Like, in my mind, that. That might have been, like, how she talked to her kids and she. She was basically highlighting how she. It seemed like she used to think of herself that way as a mama duck protecting her chicks, but then she dropped the ball severely. Was that tone deaf or inappropriate in your mind for her to invoke that. That metaphor in this context?

Jody Hildebrandt's Paranoia Comment on Her Marriage

Lauren Mathias [00:54:04] No. If she's speaking to her family and they understand what she's trying to say, who am I to judge? I think that I understand, again, why it was so hard for people to hear. We think of, again, a mama duck as someone that protects her baby chicks. And so I understand why it's going to trigger a lot of people here, especially mothers. But we don't know. Right. We don't know her intention or who she was necessarily trying to speak to.

John Dehlin [00:54:31] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [00:54:31] With using that term.

John Dehlin [00:54:33] What'd you think about her talking about Kevin as the love of her life for 23 years, that he remains wrapped around her heart? That clearly sounds like she still loves Kevin, regrets allowing Jody to separate her and Kevin, and would welcome not getting divorced from Kevin?

Lauren Mathias [00:54:54] Yeah, that was sad because I heard from people sitting in court that actually Kevin was crying during that moment. And that's what made that very sad and very heartbreaking. Again, let's remember they are college sweethearts. They met when Ruby was 18 years old. I don't know exactly. Maybe Kevin was 21. They've been together over 20 years. And six kids, right?

John Dehlin [00:55:17] Six kids, yeah.

Lauren Mathias [00:55:17] Five. Yeah. And. Oh, yeah, you're right. Gosh. And so it was. So that alone makes it heartbreaking to know that her other half, the person that just filed for divorce, was crying in the courtroom. Made it difficult to know.

John Dehlin [00:55:37] Yeah, we've. We've covered a bit. You know, her. Her whole family are kind of Mormon influencers, including her parents that are on a mission or. Or at least were. All of her siblings at one point or another have had successful YouTube channels. And it's clearly. This has clearly been hard on her parents and siblings. And so I was grateful to hear her admit that she was wretched. She said the words utterly wretched to her parents and that she forced her siblings to. And their spouses to roll around in a pigsty. Like, I don't know. That feels like contrition to me, like unconditional contempt.

Lauren Mathias [00:56:18] She said that she showed her parents unconditional contempt. That was pretty powerful.

John Dehlin [00:56:24] Yeah. So I was. I. Based on what I've seen, I'm guessing they appreciated that. I don't know, I'm just speculating.

Lauren Mathias [00:56:32] I thought I was. And maybe you're, maybe I'm jumping ahead. Forgive me, John, but I thought, I want to point out that she said that it was her paranoia that led to criminal activity. You probably have that written down to. So again, sorry if I'm jumping ahead, but you know, that she was paranoid, that she thought the world was bad. We see so much paranoia in this world and with LDS preppers, I'll say it, you don't have to. I see a lot of paranoia and, and I think that's coming from a place that's been studying the Daybell case for a very long time and have, has attended these sort of conferences. And I know that Jody Hildebrandt is a big part of the sort of prepper community in, in the LDS Church. I, I call it a subgroup of the church and these extremist preppers. And that, you know, Jody Hildebrandt I think was quite a prepper. She had this basement in this southern Utah home. And you know, according to Jesse, in your interview with Jesse that she was preparing that she thought she was going to usher in the second coming of Christ. That was from Jody's niece Jesse on Mormon stories. That interview, that incredible interview you did with her, John, and excuse me, them, I'm working on that, that you did with Jesse. And so to hear about paranoia and that her paranoia led to these crimes was, it was actually a little bit chilling to me if I'm going to be honest, because I always say that there is still danger out there. There is still danger out there. And for her to claim that a paranoia led to criminal activities says something that I think we should all be paying attention to.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] Yeah, we've covered this as well. Whether it's the Tom, you know, the visions of glory, Tom Harrison, you know, Chad Daba, Lori Valo, Tim Ballard, just kind of Mormon prepper movement out there. That's, that's, that's what it gave those, that's the vibes that I got when she talks about the world is evil. That's second coming Mormon prepper mumbo jumbo. Being isolated, that the cops are in control, that hospitals injure. That's the whole anti vax suspicion of science, suspicion of medicine garbage that has taken over a huge chunk of Utah, Idaho and Arizona Mormon culture that cops control, that the government does bad things. What did you think about the line that church leaders lie and lust. It was, it was clear that she was quoting Jody Hildebrandt. So it, it must have been Jody Hildebrandt's teachings that Mormon church leaders lie in lust. Which is weird because so much of Jody Hildebrandt's teachings were built on Mormonism.

Lauren Mathias [00:59:31] Oh, no, I'm not surprised. And this is such a big deal. Thank you for bringing this up. How do you be a leader of a religion if there are other leaders? If you, if you want to be a true cult leader and lead the people and have them listen to you and no one else, you better scare them of the actual leaders. There are so many of these subgroups that start with the idea that the LDS leaders or the church leaders are being led astray. Chad Daybell had a train dream where he saw that the LDS leaders were being led astray. I've. I've attended a firm expo and while I met wonderful people there, there is definitely an idea from many of the people that church leaders are being led astray. So for if Jody Hildebrandt truly is a cult leader, which is again, what surely seems like Ruby's attorney is trying to set the stage and say, then she would certainly try to make Ruby afraid of everyone but her and that she has the truth. Truth with a capital T, as Jody would say. I've read Jody's book and she, by the way, I don't know if you know that. That she says it's truth with a capital T. She has that. And so if you are going to be stating that, then you better be the authority. And so for Jody to be saying, oh, the church leaders don't know. I know it kind of does show that. Yeah, that, that she is, she is leading a cult and she's trying to establish herself as the leader.

Jody Hildebrandt: The Mormon Church Leaders Are Being

John Dehlin [01:01:01] But for me it goes deeper just because as we talked about with Tom Harrison, with Visions of Glory, with Tim Ballard, this whole Mormon prepper subculture does have this kind of uns. Un non public line that somehow the Mormon Church leaders have gone astray. It's kind of the Denver snuffer, you know, the restoration needs another restoration. That the restoration from the apostasy has gone back into apostasy and that it's these independent, conservative, prepper Mormons in Arizona, Idaho and Utah that are the one mighty and strong again. Avram Gileadi and his teachings from Isaiah. It's got all those vibes there of this paranoia End times. Can't trust the church leaders. But I think I'll just close this part with just my continued call to the Mormon Church to clean this up because the church knows how to deal with apostates. This is apostate language. And the church excommunicates apostates. Why isn't the Mormon Church excommunicating? Tom Harrison, Avram Gileadi, all the leaders of these end times prepper movements, because otherwise they're just letting them fester and grow. And as you and I and others have pointed out, this won't be the end. Right. This won't be the end. Jody Hildebrandt and Chad and Lori Dibb. Chad Valo. Chad Deba, Lori Valo. It's not over, right?

Lauren Mathias [01:02:33] Blaze Thibodeau. No, it's not over. What you just brought up is so important. Let me, let me say this, that, that you are so used, John, to, you know, we're so used to Mormon stories being the place for progressive Mormons or those that are realizing and believing that LDS leaders are full of it. Right. But what people aren't realizing is actually those really staunch believers or the Jody Hildebrandt or the people that are saying, you have to live this severely black and white way of thinking. And, and the ultra conservative, stalwart members are the ones that are stating, oh, no, the LDS leaders are just falling away. Don't believe them. We need to go start our own little subgroup and we need to preach our own little thing. And they're creating their own little culture that is very. And I'm gonna say it, you don't have to. Dangerous. That's very dangerous. And I think that's maybe fair to say because we've got Tim Ballard, we've got Jody Hildebrand, we have the daybell. So I think I can say that. And so I think sometimes we give so much attention to, you know, one side of the coin that we're not focused on the other side. And so. Thank you. Thank you for tackling this and bringing this up. Thank you. It's. It's a very strange phenomenon that we're seeing that the LDS leaders, the, the most stalwart leaders that you would think would be the most righteous, you know, to use lack of a better word, that's their term, righteous followers of the LDS prophet and follow everything to a book are actually saying, no, no, LDS leaders actually don't. They're falling away. And so we've got to do our own thing here. And they're not listening to LDS leaders. They're listening. They're starting their own little subgroups. I don't know how to explain it. I. I'm.

John Dehlin [01:04:34] Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [01:04:34] Talking and talking. But thank you.

Krista Calls Me Out On Excommunication

John Dehlin [01:04:36] Chris, is Krista from your channel's calling me out. She says, I thought you were against excommunication. I will say I'm against excommunication from. For people who advocate for LGBT rights, who advocate for women's rights, who advocate against racism, who advocate for more financial disclosure on the part of the church, more financial transparency, who advocate for truthful telling of history. I think it's wrong. Excommunicate those people for legal, same sex married couples. I do think that any organization has the right to decide who's a member and who's not. I don't think I'm against excommunication for pedophilia. I don't think I'm against excommunication for rape or incest, for spousal abuse. And honestly, I don't think I'm against excommunication for end times, paranoid, illegal, violent strains of. Of apostasy. I don't know. I don't know how else the church can police its boundaries, because if you have no boundaries, you're not a people, you're not a community with no boundaries. So I don't know if that makes me a hypocrite, but I don't think I'm against excommunication for illegal behavior or

Lauren Mathias [01:06:01] I. Yeah, and they didn't ask me. But I'll throw in my opinion I am against excommunication, and I'll. And I'll tell you why. But, but if you. So I'm against excommunication because I think that actually that makes Those that are LDs sometimes a little bit more gullible. If you see an LDS member in high standing, you trust them. Well, they haven't been excommunicated. I must trust them. I think we should actually go by the whole once you're lds, you're always LDS stance. But, but I will say this. The church leaders don't agree with me, and they do excommunicate. And so now I find myself very concerned with, my gosh, my, my goodness, if, if you do excommunicate, and then we need to excommunicate people that are dangerous and that are concerning and that might be leading innocent, vulnerable people astray. We have. If we're going to excommunicate, then we have to protect vulnerable people. And that would be excommunicating the right people.

John Dehlin [01:07:03] Yeah. All right. The only other thing I'll add. We gotta jump to the next clip. But she wanted to really make a point that she never received any money from her partnership with Jody and that she paid Jody to be her mentor. And didn't. It seems like she takes issue with the idea that they were business partners. And that's weird because they were doing videos together and promoting a business together. I guess she just wanted to make the point that she never got any money out of the deal. But. But did you find that to be interesting?

Jody Hildebrandt's Statement Regarding Her Connection With Ruby

Lauren Mathias [01:07:39] I found it actually to be a really interesting piece of the puzzle. It would actually make Jody, in my opinion, be a bit more of a user. If she say, no, we weren't business partners and I was actually paying for therapy, then I actually think it makes Jody look even worse. Wait, you were. You were making this woman pay you while using her channel and her platform and her children, who knows what else, and then she was still paying you? I actually think it makes it look worse. I've got to bring up something, John, before we move on. Anything else you want to bring up about her statement first?

John Dehlin [01:08:15] Yeah, I mean, just when she mentions, as a. As a delusion of hers, that husbands don't protect children and the children are abused by husbands. That just screamed Adam Paul Steed. And it made me feel sorry for Adam Paul Steed and the other husband, largely male husband, victims of Jody Hildebrandt. That's. That's the only other thing I wanted to mention. Go ahead.

Lauren Mathias [01:08:40] Yeah. And not so daring. Devastating. She's saying, we weren't business partners. We weren't equal. This was her in power, I think.

John Dehlin [01:08:48] Yeah. And it's unethical for therapists and coaches to be employing their clients. Really? Generally speaking. Yeah.

Lauren Mathias [01:08:57] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] Yeah. What'd you want to say?

Lauren Mathias [01:09:00] I'm pulling up my phone notes because I got to get this right, so forgive me. I have this all. Read it down. Yeah. I've got to be a really, really good journalist when it comes to this, because I want to point something out, and this hasn't been shared on other channels, and I haven't talked about this, but she thinks. I think most of us know. She says this is in quote, at her statement. My dear friends Pam and Roy, I'm so sorry for letting you down because of your association with me. Your innocence was called into question. End quote. Now many people know who she's likely talking about. She's referring to Pam Botcher. Pam Botcher was a really good friend of Jody and Rubies. And let me tell you a little bit about Pam, because she's apologizing to them, her dear friends. They're also in the body cam footage. So do you remember, John, when the children. When the children were found in southern Utah in Ivan's. They needed to find the other minor children of Ruby and Kevin's. I don't know if you recall that. And so they were found up north at Pam Botcher's home. And you have body cam footage of both. Okay, so that's Pam and Roy. Okay, so Ruby is apologizing to them. Well, let's go back. I have this written down. Jesse Hildebrandt, the niece of Jody, in your interview with them, states this. Pam Botcher, when I was living with Jody. So this is a quote from Jesse on your interview. Pam Botcher, When I was living with Jody, Pam Botcher was around. She was Jody's best friend. Jesse said, and then quotes. I didn't realize that she, Pam was connected in this. I mean I have a very, I have very strong feelings towards Pam because of, not that she was directly applying abuse, like she wasn't exactly involved, but she was one of the people that was constantly surveilling the surveillance and reporting back to Jody. That's from Jesse. Here's some other things about Pam. Pam is the president of the Connections Foundation. And then let's get back to restitution. John, Restitution, you asked about that and I couldn't hear. So Jody is Now selling her $3 million home in Kayenta and which we're like, oh, she's going to have a bunch of cash. And Kevin Frankie has actually filed something to be able to receive some of that home or some money for restitute, restitution for the victims because these children are going to need therapy for the rest of their lives. And if Jody has a three million dollar home, certainly some of it, I think we, many of us could agree that should go to the victims, RF and EF and those, you know, affected by Jody. Well, in that filing, Kevin Frankie states this. So, so Kevin Frankie saying, you know, come on, she's got this $3 million home. Let me read to you this. The defendant, he states, here we go. The property has not been taken for tax assessment or fine. Pause. Let me find the right place. Okay. So more importantly, the defendant, Jody Hildebrandt, presently has resources from which this restitution could be funded. But such may not soon be the case in that resources may be liquidated and unavailable for access should the court fail to immediately delay or prevent the liquidation or transfer. They're referring to this $3 million home. The defendant would suffer no prejudice by the short delay. Under the Crime Victims Restitution act, these child victims are entitled to restitution which will compensate for these Injuries, by the way, the defendant providing restitution for any and all ongoing treatment of these injuries. So in other words, we need the funds from this home. And then it has stated. This is wild. That one of the concerns is that the money to Jody's house is either in the name of the defendant, Jody Hildebrandt, or it's being held by third parties or entities for the defendant. That may include, but not limited to Pam Bodger and connections llc. So I just want to point that out because I think it's really interesting that Pam Bodger has been involved with Jody since Jesse Hildebrandt was living with Jody and is the president of the connections foundation. And Ruby is apologizing to Pam in this statement. What does that mean? I have no conclusion. But I want to point out that that caught my attention and we should all know who Pam is and how evolved she's been in Jody's life for a long time. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not putting any thing on Pam. I don't know what she knows. I'm just laying out those few facts. It was really interesting to me that she would apologize to Pam. I don't know what that means.

Ruby Hildebrandt Apologizes to Child Victims of the

John Dehlin [01:14:01] Interesting. All right, well, you have good instincts, so I'm excited to see what comes of that. Thank you for sharing. Let's go ahead and go to the next clip. Is that okay?

Lauren Mathias [01:14:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:12] All right, let's do it.

Speaker E [01:14:16] No, your honor.

Mrs. Frankie Gets 10-Year Sentence

Speaker D [01:14:16] Anything else prior to the court imposing sentence?

John Dehlin [01:14:19] So this is the sentencing?

Speaker E [01:14:20] No, your honor.

Speaker D [01:14:23] The sentence will be that Ms. Frankie serve four counts for one to 15 year sentences based on her convictions for four counts of aggravated child abuse. Again, they will serve consecutively, be served consecutively pursuant to the party's agreement and the applicable statute. Under the applicable statute, the court finds that consecutive sentences are appropriate. Ms. Frankie, the last thing I do need to tell you is that you have only 30 days to file or to perfect an appeal if any errors of the court by filing a written notice of appeal with the clerk of the court. If you don't do that within 30 days, you will lose your right to appeal. You also have the right to the assistance of an attorney on appeal and to have one appointed if you cannot afford to hire your own. Restitution, as agreed by the parties, will remain open for a period of eight months. Any of the parties can bring that matter back before the court within that that period of time. Anything else?

Speaker E [01:15:37] No, your honor. Honor.

Speaker D [01:15:39] Thank you.

Final Sentencing for Ruby Hill

John Dehlin [01:15:42] All right, so that's the sentencing.

Speaker D [01:15:44] Next matter before the court is State of Utah versus Hill.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] So that's basically the sentencing. She got minimum of four years. Do you know, can you tell us really quickly, you may have already touched on this. How is the final sentencing going to happen, how it will be arrived at, exactly what the minimum sentencing is?

Lauren Mathias [01:16:03] Yeah, it's a great question. I actually had a defense attorney on my Try My channel earlier today to help explain that to me, because even I was confused and. And needed a legal expert. But it sounds like what's going to happen is it will be decided through the Board of Pardons. Is that right? Everyone correct me if. If I don't have that right. So it's interesting that they were sentenced and the. The major thing we learned today, essentially that it's going to be consecutive. But as far as. Which is good. Which is good, but as far as how long they will each serve will still will not be up to the judge, but will be up to the board.

Speaker G [01:16:41] And.

Lauren Mathias [01:16:41] And they will decide. And I think they will look at all mitigating factors, including what the judge laid out that. Well, we'll get to that. That's a Jody thing. But in other words, they'll look at how risk factors, and they'll look at how. I think they'll definitely look at Ruby's remorse or her act of remorse, to be fair, whatever it is, to give everyone a voice here. And they will decide how. What she will. What she will serve. But it will be at least four years. Technically, it might have been parole today, but it's not going to be. It's going to be four years at least.

John Dehlin [01:17:22] And do we know when that. You may have already said this, when that final decision will be made?

Lauren Mathias [01:17:27] I don't. I wish I could tell you. That's one thing I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:17:30] Okay, so that'll be another episode.

Lauren Mathias [01:17:33] We'll be going live when it happens.

Jody Hildebrandt Gets Four Separate Sentences

John Dehlin [01:17:35] Okay, so the next part we're going to play is kind of the same thing we just saw. Ruby leaves the courtroom. Jody Hildebrandt enters the courtroom. I've. I've abbreviated some of it. There's going to be a part where the judge reads how the kids were abused. Again, I cut off a good chunk of that. That's repetitive. But I kept the ending because he says some things towards the end of the description. Not the judge, but the prosecuting attorney that I think is relevant. So let's go ahead and jump to the. The Jody Hildebrandt sentencing

Speaker E [01:18:11] at a time they were forced to do manual labor outdoors in the extreme Summer heat, often without.

John Dehlin [01:18:17] So this is Jody.

Speaker E [01:18:19] They were also forced to stand outside on a cement patio in the summer heat for hours and even days. They were beaten and the 12 year old was regularly bound hand and foot after he attempted to run away in mid July. Both children had extensive physical injuries from the abuse that required hospitalization to treat. The injuries from the binding are particularly bad. In addition to the physical abuse, the children were emotionally abused. They each believed to some degree that they deserved what was being done to them. Had the older of the two children not had the courage to run away and ask a neighbor to call the police, heaven only knows how much longer he could have survived after being caught. Ms. Hildebrandt has shown little to no remorse for her actions. In telephone conversations that will be provided in full to the Board of Pardons and Parole and which she knew to be recorded, she's repeatedly claimed that she is the victim and the children of the perpetrators. She's gone so far as to say that the things said in this proceeding and covered by the media today will be full of lies. The combination of three factors make Ms. Hildebrand a significant threat to the community. First, the severity of the abuse she caused to be inflicted on young children. Second, her attitude that everything she did was justified and that she is being wrongfully imprisoned. And third, her training as a therapist and aptitude for using online resources to convince others to follow her guidance. Utah Code, Code Section 76, 3, 401 lays out three factors the court should consider in determining whether to impose concurrent or consecutive sentences. The first is the gravity and circumstances of the offence. The second is the number of victims. And the third is the history, character and rehabilitative need of the defendant as agreed to in the plea agreement and is recommended by probation and parole. Consecutive sentences are appropriate here. This is due to the severity of the abuse to the two victims and the extreme need for Ms. Hildebrandt to be rehabilitated so that she no longer will present a risk to the community. The State respectfully requests that she be sentenced to four consecutive terms.

Speaker D [01:20:28] Thank you, Mr. Clark. Mr. Terry, thank you.

Speaker F [01:20:34] I will be brief,

Speaker C [01:20:39] as is always

Speaker F [01:20:39] the case in cases that come before courts. There are two sides to every case. And as, and even in a case like this, that remains the case. There are many, many allegations regarding these two individuals. Individuals? Ms. Franke and my client, Ms. Hildebrandt. The only facts in this case that are adjudicated facts are those set forth in the plea agreement that she entered into. That she entered into freely and Knowingly and voluntarily. Those facts, those adjudicated facts, are significant. They certainly provide a basis for the pleas and provide a basis for the stipulated sentence in this case. My experience with Ms. Hildebrandt is that she is not the person that she has been portrayed to be. But having said that, she has accepted responsibility in this case. She has entered into this plea agreement with a stipulated sentence of four consecutive sentences. She did that at the time she entered into the plea agreement knowing that that would be the court's order. She's before the court today knowing that that will be the court's order, and she fully accepts that. She accepts responsibility and she accepts the consequences for her conduct, and we will submit it to the court on the stipulated agreement.

Speaker D [01:22:28] Mr. Terry, you suggested that there, there are two sides to every case. I generally agree with you. Ms. Hildebrand didn't make a statement to APNP in, in the course of the pre sentence investigation report.

Speaker F [01:22:43] Correct.

Speaker D [01:22:44] Why did she not make make a statement?

Speaker F [01:22:46] She wanted to reserve her right to make a statement before the court today. And she has a brief statement that she wants to read. Your honor.

Speaker E [01:22:53] Okay.

Speaker D [01:22:54] And Ms. Hildebrandt, Go ahead.

Speaker G [01:23:06] I sincerely love these children. I desire for them to heal physically and emotionally. One of the reasons I did not go to trial is that I did not want them to emotionally relive the experience which would have been detrimental to them. My hope and prayer is that they will heal and move forward to have beautiful lives. I am willing to submit to what the state feels would be an appropriate amount of time served to make retribution as an outcome.

Speaker F [01:23:44] And in answer to your question, your Honor, I knew that whatever she might say to the author of the presentence report would probably be sound, hollow and self serving, and perhaps it does today. But I know that my client, in the statement that she made to the court today, that that statement is absolutely sincere.

Speaker D [01:24:10] Does Hildebrandt recognize that it's her behavior that caused the harm to the children that she's referred to in her statement?

Speaker F [01:24:18] Your Honor, she recognizes that she was, along with Ms. Frankie, that she made decisions with respect to the discipline of those children that were wrong that caused harm to those children. She fully recognizes that and accepts responsibility for that.

Speaker D [01:24:40] All right. Anything else?

Speaker E [01:24:42] No, you, Honor.

Speaker F [01:24:43] No, you, Honor.

Jody Hildebrandt's Statement

Speaker D [01:24:44] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:24:47] All right. That was disturbing. That was the first time I watched that whole clip. Wow. Why don't you go first? But I've got a bunch of stuff. Go ahead.

Lauren Mathias [01:24:57] Yeah, no, this is the part where I give no sympathy, no empathy. She. This is actually the most maddening thing about today for me was Jody Hildebrandt statement. She did not say she was sorry. She did not take responsibility. She starts by saying, I love these children deeply. I mean, if, if the duck thing upset people, this one has me fuming to say that she loves these children. And then she says that she hopes that they heal and that's it. And then she says, you know, I, I wish them the best life. She doesn't say, and by the way, this was my belief system. She doesn't say, and by the way, this is my fault. By the way I abuse them. She doesn't say she's sorry. Not once does she say the words I'm sorry. If you want to know who Jody Hildebrand is, listen to her statement and you will know my opinion.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] Yeah, she had a blank face. There were like no facial reactions. It looked like she was thinking, but I didn't see any sign of really feeling or of feeling remorse. I just didn't see it. He talked about phone recordings where she said she's the victim, which, which maps with her affect during this healing, that she said that, that the children are the perpetrators. How could she say that she loves the children when she's on record calling them the perpetrators and saying that they're full of lies?

Lauren Mathias [01:26:30] Well, it reminds me of people that abuse, that say, I do this because I love you. I love you, which is why I'm hurting you. You know, my grandmother was abused and that's what her abuser said. You know, it's just because I love you. I mean, to me, it was, it was, it was sick. She was, she was. To say that you love somebody as you hurt them is the cruelest form of abuse. You know, it's just, it's just despicable. I have no empathy or sympathy for her.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] Yeah.

Jody Hildebrandt's Response To Her Own Case

Lauren Mathias [01:26:58] After seeing that, I'll share just a

John Dehlin [01:27:00] couple of the comments, just to kind of give a sampling of our audience. Lamisa Filipino Food Club writes similar to Lori Daybell. This woman is violent, dangerous, but more so because she actually believes some of her own bs. So that. That's a parallel that many people have drawn. They're. They're likening Jody Hildebrandt's response to Lori Vallow, who was more defiant and was justifying that God and Jesus were all okay with the outcomes of those children being murdered. It was just like, hey, I'm good with God. Everything happened as it should. And it, that's, that's almost the vibe that Jody Hildebrandt was giving. Is that projecting too much on a Jody.

Lauren Mathias [01:27:49] I don't think it's projecting too much. I think when you're looking at risk factors, it's equal. They both believe the bs, as Lamisa says. They both believe this. I actually think Jody is worse because I think with. I shouldn't say worse. Lori. I feel like, Lori, you just want to, like, face palm, like, you can't believe she's saying this stuff and it's horrible and lock her her way forever because she's such a risk factor. She still believes this. And as Judge Boyce said to Lori Valadabel during her sentencing, you've gone down a religious rabbit hole and you haven't come back up. You're still down there with Jody. It almost feels like she's more manipulative, like she believes her own bs, but she's not daring to say it. She's just. She's just trying to say, I. I love these kids. I love them. I wish them a wonderful life. You know, I'm a good person. And. And with the way I see her face, just, you know, like, looking kind of stressed and nervous, I almost feel like she is trying to put that victim face on. Like, oh, I'm just this afraid child. I don't know what to do. Help me. Sorry. This is me. Like, I just took off my journalist hat and I'm going, you know, full on my opinions on Jody Hildebrandt. But this is Lauren. Lauren's opinions. There you go.

John Dehlin [01:28:52] No, that's good. I'll add that in addition to her not apologizing and saying she loves the kids, which feels very abusive, it's kind of like they're saying that she. She submitted. This is how I interpreted it. She thinks she's innocent, but she. For the sake of the kids, she didn't want to drag the kids through a court. And so she submitted innocently, like a lamb to the slaughter. There's some Mormon overtones to that. For the sake of the kids. And then, even though she didn't say she was innocent, when asked to give a statement of contrition, she didn't. But then the attorney immediately steps in and calls these things allegations, says there are two sides, says that the only adjudicated facts were in the plea agreement, that Jody is not the person portrayed. And he's saying she accepts responsibility, but she's not saying she accepts responsibility.

Lauren Mathias [01:29:57] Right. It's a big difference to have your attorney say it and you say it, and this is the time she should say it. And I think that was pretty obvious.

John Dehlin [01:30:04] What is she, like. I mean, I guess she just literally doesn't accept responsibility. But then it's weird that the attorney is saying she does. Right.

Lauren Mathias [01:30:13] He's being a defense attorney. He knows. He's like, yeah, she didn't accept responsibility, so I'll just say she does. You know, But I think it's his

John Dehlin [01:30:20] job to lie for his client. Like, that's weird.

Lauren Mathias [01:30:25] I mean, you could. You. You could debate whether or not it's a lie. If he feels that that's her way of saying. Saying she takes responsibility, that he's not necessarily lying. But she's clearly not. And I agree. She's going into this like she's a martyr. Oh, I. I've taken a plea deal so that the kids will not, you know, so they'll be safe. Right. Martyr is. I do. She's trying to play the martyr. And that's what she's done. Well, her whole life, according to Jesse. When you interviewed them.

John Dehlin [01:30:56] Yeah, yeah. And then the judge jumps right on it and says, look, she had a chance to make a statement before. Why didn't she make it? And then the attorney's like, well, she wanted to wait and make it today. And then when she makes it, there's no contrition or anything. She was. She sounded like her voice was a little bit trembling, but certainly not crying and certainly didn't sound remorseful to me.

Lauren Mathias [01:31:22] No, I. I think her trembling voice was to act afraid, like meek, you know, that she's the victim. I mean, that's what they say, that she always wants to be the victim. Which, by the way, John, I know you don't cover true crime all the time, so let me just tell you this. There's a book called the Sociopath Next Door. And in that book, Dr. Martha Stout gives a tip to her readers about what to look for when it comes to a sociopath or a psychopath. And she states that it's the pity play. She states that many people want some really vicious sign or some creepy thing. She said it's actually a pity play. It's that they are always looking for your sympathy. That's what Dr. Martha Stout states in the Sociopath Next Door. Someone that's always playing the victim and always wants your sympathy. And that's all I hear people say about Jody all the time, that she is always the victim. So put two and two together. It's certainly on my mind.

Jody Smith Gets Four Years for Sexual Assault

John Dehlin [01:32:22] Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess the outcome is she gets, at minimum, four years as well. And then it sounds like the. The actual term, the actual Number of years of sentencing is going to be determined later. Anything else about what went on in the courtroom that you think is worth mentioning?

Judge's comments about Jody Hildebrandt

Lauren Mathias [01:32:44] No, I think we've covered the most important parts. I think. I wouldn't be surprised if Jody gets more time than Ruby because of their statements. And also not just what their. Their statements, but also what the judge has stated. He. He called Jody out for not showing remorse. I can't wait to get these phone calls. By the way, someone asked me about FOIA requests and getting these phone calls. Yeah, we'll be on them. They won't be ready right away, but they certainly will be in about a month, and we'll be on it. But these phone calls that in the. The press conference after the attorney stated that he had not heard these recorded jail calls that the judge brought up that said that even when Jody knew she was being recorded on phone calls, she did not show remorse or take responsibility for what she had done. And that makes her a risk factor,

John Dehlin [01:33:34] but it's kind of dumb. You think she would do the least dumb thing to lead to the shortest sentence and is calculating and is insincere and is. Whatever you can say about her, she's not acting in the smartest way for her own self interest. And I mean, Jody Hildebrandt. Right.

Lauren Mathias [01:33:55] No, it will show you. It shows you that clearly she's in distortion and distortion for her own benefit. Distortion to Jody can mean shame. And I think she had. She just cannot admit that she's ever done anything wrong, and that will be her downfall in the end. And luckily, we found her crypto night. She just cannot admit ever that she might be wrong.

Adam Paul Steed on Jody Hildebrandt's Sexual

John Dehlin [01:34:20] Yeah, well, there was a moment after. I always want to make sure victims get represented. And there was a. A pretty powerful moment after when reporters are on the steps outside the courthouse and Adam Paul Steed commandeers the mic. I thought we could play a little clip of that. Is that okay?

Lauren Mathias [01:34:40] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:34:41] All right, so love, love and respect. Adam Paul Steed, one of the many victims of Jody Hildebrandt. This is what happened. We'll get him back on Mormon Stories right now. This was Adam Paul Steed's comments afterwards. Oh, wait a minute. Let me. Let me find the right clip. Hopefully, this is it. Okay, one more. Here we go.

Speaker E [01:35:15] Hi, there.

Lauren Mathias [01:35:15] Okay, we've got another interview.

Speaker H [01:35:17] You guys want to know who Jody Hildebrand is here? I'll. I'll answer your questions. He's her attorney. He can't answer. My name's Adam Paul Steed, and if you guys Want to know who Jody Hildebrand is? I'll answer tons of questions about her. I know my dad. Hey, dad, come here.

Speaker C [01:35:35] Come.

Speaker H [01:35:35] Come here. Come here. My dad has a file at home that's probably about 2,500 pages of records from court filings and just huge amount of documentation about Jody Hildebrandt that we will share with everybody. I want you to know the same court that has ordered us not to share these documents is covering up this racket that Jody Hildebrandt had with the Mormon church in the 4th district Utah County Court. She abused my children the same way, almost even in a different type of abuse. I think it could be argued worse. And that was 15 years ago. And I fought against Jody Hildebrandt with my family and everybody to stop this monster of a lady. And Jody went after me. She went after me, destroyed my life in the craziest way you could ever think of possible. Like I was a victim, victim of sexual abuse at Boy Scouts of America Camp Little Lemhi in Idaho. My dad helped us stop a predator. You can watch read in the national press and everything. We changed the laws of sexual abuse so victims could come forward. We got rid of the criminal and civil statute limitations. The Mormon Church knew who we were. And Elder Helam Richard Gilam was like, next. He was the president of the first quorum of the 70, the top probably executive functioning leader of the whole Mormon Church. And he sat with Jody Hildebrandt as they destroyed my life in this court racket like they've destroyed countless other people's lives. And they even had the gall to order my Mormon stories thing where I brought some documentation off the Internet saying that they didn't want me to say bad things to my children or in front of the children about my ex wife. Well, if you're accused of sexual abuse by Jody Hildebrandt and if you're your ex wife performed a falsification of sexual abuse, that professionals looked at the documentation and said, this is sexual abuse. This is sexual abuse. We have documentation for sexual abuse of my children by Jody Hilderbrandt and my ex wife. And you know, this stuff was redacted in the doppel paperwork. It was so horrible that it was redacted. And the courts just recently recently said I couldn't talk about my family or my ex wife or anything. But if you have children, if your children were trained to think that your dad was sexual, a predator and a monster.

Speaker C [01:37:55] So.

Lauren Mathias [01:37:56] So I'm sorry, we came in a little bit late. Why is it that you wanted to be here.

Speaker H [01:38:00] Okay? So there are tons. And it's not. Jody Hildebrandt is the tip of the iceberg. The Mormon Church was doing this operation where they were using religious beliefs and they were using ethical therapists to enforce them. And it was an area of exploitation, and it was a horrific area. It was exploitation because it created horrible divorces that should have been normal divorces. We're talking about hundreds and thousands of families going through these courts, and Jody was, like, an icon. Her doctrine. Okay, so here's the problem, everybody.

Ruby Frankie on Jody Hildebrandt's Sentencing

Lauren Mathias [01:38:32] It sounds like was a little bit of, like, justice for you, too.

Speaker H [01:38:35] Oh, Jody. Yeah.

Speaker G [01:38:36] Ruby.

Speaker H [01:38:36] Ruby Frank. When I saw Ruby Frank, I saw my ex wife sitting there saying the exact same thing that my ex wife would have said the exact same thing. Ruby Frankie said today, and a lot of other women would have said the same thing. You have no idea how many victims are out there that their minds have been messed up so much with this. The prosecutor said that. He said that the children thought it was their fault. All of the adult men think it's their fault. All of the women think it's their fault. I have had countless emails and messages. I'm Adam Paul Steed. I was. I'm the guy that got Jody's license from Doppel removed. Well, my dad and mom get the credit, but, you know, and. And they said that the Doppel department said, we have evidence here for criminal charges against Jody. This is 13 years ago. It's identical stuff. So I almost, like, fell over in the courtroom when I heard Jody say that she loved those children. Jody doesn't love children. Jody's like Ted Bundy. In fact, one time I was in a.

Lauren Mathias [01:39:40] Do you feel that she should have

Speaker H [01:39:42] a longer sentence than Jody? Here's the problem. Somebody hits a person and runs. That's like two variables. A car and someone running. They catch him. Jody's got, like, 30 variables, including a huge issue with the Mormon church racketing. They're all ducking low and covering. In fact, I looked at an email, and I can show this to you guys. This is factual evidence where it should have been a neutral person in the courts. Kelly Peterson, the guardian at Lydham, when they were punishing me in the family custody courts, he said that my act to turn Jody Hildebrandt in was an act of vengeance, and they took my kids away from me because I performed an act of vengeance. That's in the. This court was sitting there completely in bed with Jody. They've done. I talked to Doug Thayer's daughter. She saw relations, I mean, these aggressive attorneys working with Jody. Commissioner Patton, all these people know about Jody. The BYU Honor Code office did it before they kicked me out of school for being a whistleblower on child abuse. I guess Jody Hildebrandt went there and told them I was the most dangerous man she'd ever met in her lifetime. We have hundreds of pages of this stuff of Jody Hildebrandt working with top church leaders to dispel me. I got kicked out of school my senior year. This lady, we've got all this documentation of how she talks, how she walks. Now here's what I do want to say. I don't like Ruby Frankie, but I don't know her. I just think you have to be a selfish person to fall for Jody's stuff. You got, she's got a certain kind of carrot that gets certain kind of people. But Ruby Frankie would have never done any of this stuff if Jody Hildebrandt hadn't been the mastermind and just completely, completely created this. Ruby Frankie is not dangerous in the sense she's not going to go out and do this to more kids, but Jody Hildebrandt will. When we put, when we went to Doppel and we went to Doppel, Doppel ordered her to go through all this ethical stuff. She went through the whole thing with shining colors and she turned around and did the same stuff again. I mean, even when she was teaching us that we were safe to come to her and stuff, she was abusing children at the same time with one hand and teaching a godliness with another hand.

Lauren Mathias [01:41:57] What's her motivation?

Speaker H [01:42:00] Jodi Hildebrandt had a weird relationship relationship with my ex wife. It was a dual relationship. It was bordering sexual in nature. I mean it. She went through different women that made her look powerful and important. My ex wife's dad was a Area 70 in the Mormon Church and Jody Hildebrandt wanted power and, and, but I know her instincts. When you're in a pain and suffering, when you talk about something and she finds a way to hurt you, it makes her blush, it makes her feel euphoric. I've seen her act that way and look that way in the worst of circumstances. So I always compare Jody Hildebrandt to Ted Bundy because nobody can figure out why a serial killer would kill people. Jody Hildebrandt, she. She grows off of people's pain and destruction. And when she sat there and said she loved those kids, I almost felt fell out of my chair. The only thing she, her her version of loving children is find a way to make them hurt more than anything possible. It's like an energy she feeds off of.

Lauren Mathias [01:43:06] Thank you so much, Adam.

Speaker E [01:43:08] Yeah.

Speaker G [01:43:08] Dang.

John Dehlin [01:43:09] Mike. Rob.

Speaker H [01:43:11] It's a little traumatic for me, so if I monologue. I'm sorry, does anybody have a question

Speaker F [01:43:16] that

Lauren Mathias [01:43:19] cover a lot, cover the law?

Speaker H [01:43:20] We got a ton of documentation. This, this, those. That 4th District Court's got to be ducking their heads right now, because I do want to say something. There's. There's countless children out there that have been raised to believe their fathers are predators because of Jody Hildebrandt. And the 4th District Court and other courts involved don't want to show they made mistakes. So who's going to help those children? Like, who's going to help them? This is a. In a court public opinion. People need to find out the truth to go help all these children and help all these people come forward. And the fact that the court tried to silence me for being on the front edge of coming forward is just an example of how the same notorious people in power back then that allowed Jody to do all this stuff are alive and thriving today. And if you give a damn about our children, you got to do the same thing I do and fight for what's true.

Speaker G [01:44:10] Thank you so much.

Lauren Mathias [01:44:11] Much, Adam. Thank you, Adam. That was Adam Steed.

Adam Steed Compares Jody Hildebrandt to Ted

Speaker G [01:44:15] Excuse me.

Speaker F [01:44:15] I'm sorry.

Lauren Mathias [01:44:16] I was getting it through my IFB hearing myself. That was Adam Steed, who claims to have been a victim of Jody Hildebrandt, in a sense, comparing her to Ted Bundy. So really, really emotional testimony that we're hearing outside of the courthouse now. Bob, I'll send it back to you right now, man.

John Dehlin [01:44:30] Ted Bundy, like, he dropped the mic, calls out the Mormon Church, calls out the district court. Court in Utah,

Lauren Mathias [01:44:40] says, if you care about kids, you should be listening. Boom. I was like, okay.

John Dehlin [01:44:45] And I don't think I can get a cease and desist takedown letter for that, because I'm just playing what was played on national media. So I'm hoping I don't have to take this one down, too. I am curious. So I'm grateful that he was willing to call it the Mormon Church, the district court, Jody Hildebrandt, call it, like he sees it. A victim speaks. I was under the understanding that there was a court order silencing him. So the one thing about that that's really shocking to me is just sort of fear for his safety, knowing that the court has silenced him along with us being silenced to not Let him speak. So do you have any thoughts on that? I guess you wouldn't maybe know Lauren.

Lauren Mathias [01:45:33] Well, no. I mean, I just spent an hour with him right before you and I jumped on, so I certainly asked. I think I can say this. He's certainly feeling empowered. I think that much is clear. And I think there's reason that he's starting to feel empowered. And I'll leave it at that. But yes, Adam met with me here. Again, I'm in St. George, so he met with me here and we went live together right before I jumped on here. And while I can't share everything, I can share that he's definitely, I'll just say it one more time, feeling empowered for many reasons.

Adam Paul Steed Takedowned

John Dehlin [01:46:10] Well, fortunately, you did an interview with Adam Paul Steed and you didn't receive a takedown cease and desist letter. It's an audio only interview. Is that right?

Lauren Mathias [01:46:20] It is. And I think you want to know why? I think is because throughout our interview, it's a two part interview, a very long interview on our channel, he kept saying, well, I gotta save that for Mormon stories. Oh, well, I gotta say that one for Mormon stories, so.

John Dehlin [01:46:38] So it's not the full story.

Lauren Mathias [01:46:39] Yeah, he certainly saved some things for Mormon stories. But yes, our interview with him is

John Dehlin [01:46:45] still up, but he got a lot of that in today. But do check out Hidden True Crime for one audio interview of Adam Paul Steed along with an extended interview today. You guys can go right there after. Well, Lauren, this has been so great to have you. We've had an. We have 4766 people tuned into this live stream. It's crazy. I want to give you just a chance to give your final thoughts. Lauren, you're a gift to our community. You and your husband, John Mathias. We love your coverage. Please everyone subscribe to Lauren and John like this episode. Share it. Lauren, really quickly, how do people support you and John and your important work? And then please give us any closing thoughts you have.

Lauren Mathias on the Daybell Case

Lauren Mathias [01:47:31] Thank you, John. You can support our work at Hidden True crime. That's our YouTube channel. Or listening to our podcast as well. Hidden A True Crime Podcast or We are. We actually have a new channel now that is starting today, a Hidden True Crime Trials or HTC Trials.

Speaker G [01:47:48] We.

Lauren Mathias [01:47:49] We appreciate everyone that follows us and subscribes. I think that we are definitely different than any True Crime podcast because we truly try to get to the the root or those hidden motives and the hidden reasons behind the crimes. And we dig deep. My husband is a forensic and clinical psychologist and I was a TV reporter for 10 years before starting this podcast. We're so grateful for you, John. I reached out to John, I reached out to you today, John, and and asked if you would do this live because I feel like when to a crime like this in order to dig deep to get to the root of the issue, this needed Mormon stories. So thank you for always be willing to talk about hard things. We really appreciate Mormon stories especially as we've covered the daybell case. Jody Hildebrand, Tim Ballard and and others. Thank you for your safe space and your compassion and your platform that works to help so many.

John Dehlin [01:48:45] Well, it's completely my honor. I adore you guys. I think we're all part of an important group of creators trying to bring health our goal within Mormon culture, within broader Christian culture, within American culture. We just want healing and growth. We want the judicial system to do better. We want people of faith to do better. We want the justice system. We just want better actors all around. And I think that's something that we share.

Lauren Mathias [01:49:17] Absolutely. I will say too, I will be on News Nation later tonight on Banfield talking about the sentencing and then my husband John and I for our weekly Hidden hour, of course will be covering this. Ruby, Frankie, Jody Hildebrandt, sentencing today. And so if you want the forensic and clinical psychologist take, join us. So Saturday night about this.

John Dehlin [01:49:41] All right, Lauren, you're the best.

Lauren Mathias [01:49:44] You're the best.

John Dehlin [01:49:45] Come back soon.

Lauren Mathias [01:49:46] Sounds good. Thanks, Lauren.

John Dehlin [01:49:48] And thanks everyone for joining us today. Please do subscribe to this channel. Please like it. Please become a monthly donor@mormonstories.org click on the donate button. Your donations keep this possible. Keep this alive. Please also support Hidden True Crime. Please leave your comments. Please share this episode wherever you can and don't be a stranger. We want to thank Maven and Julia and Gerardo and Brooklyn for all they do on the Mormon Story staff. And we want to thank all of you, our listeners and supporters, because we couldn't do this without you. Check back to Mormon Stories for more good stuff in the days weeks, months ahead. Be good to each other, be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast and Hidden True Crime. Take care everybody.