Welcome and Breaking News Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. This is a late breaking breaking news special edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I've just been made aware that the Chad Daybell verdict is in. For those of you who have been following Mormon Stories podcast closely, you will know that we've been covering the Chad Dabel and Lori Valo trials for a couple years now.

John Dehlin [00:00:37] Chad Daybell and Lori Valo, of course, were, two, are two Mormons or members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who have been charged with murder. Of course Chad, you know, has, has been a suspect and has been charged with, with the murder of his, his wife Tammy. And of course also Lori Valo has two, two children that apparently allegedly were murdered along with her brother who died and uh, an ex husband who, who, who died.

John Dehlin [00:01:24] And it's basically just a trail of unaliving that has been gripping the Mormon Internet world and just the, the broader true crime world for, for years now. This has a Mormon angle, as many of you know, not only because Chad and Lori were both devout, committed Mormons, but also because a lot of their justifications for all their behaviors prior to these murders had to deal with their Mormon beliefs, their beliefs in spirits, their beliefs in the second coming of Jesus, their beliefs in an afterlife, their beliefs in revelation, their beliefs in, you know, evil spirits and the ability to cast out evil spirits and, and the like.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] So we've been covering this for a while. The trial with Chad has been going on for several weeks now. We've had, you know, we've done some collaborations with Megan Connor who is the cousin of Lori Valo, and we've also done collaborations with Lauren Matthias Johnson, who is one of the co heads of Hidden True Crime podcast.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] Lauren's been hanging out in Boise for a long, long time, many, many weeks covering this in depth. I can't recommend her coverage enough and I'm sure she's live streaming this as well. Where we focus here on Mormon Stories podcast is on the Mormon angle. And you know, there's no one who wants to cover the Mormon angle, you know, nationally like we do. And so that's what we do.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] And of course Lauren does touch on the Mormon angle, but she just has a more broad general hid, you know, kind of a true crime angle and journalist angle that she does so well. So anyway, I'm super happy because Megan, Megan Connor, Lori Valo's cousin who we've had on Mormon Stories podcast, she, she reached out to me like 45 minutes ago and told me the verdict was coming and she told me that she is available.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] So what we're going to be doing is we're going to be playing the, the, the live stream of the verdict. And in addition, we're going to react to it. Megan and I, if, if we're able to get others to join us. Gerardo's got something, a conflict right now.

John Dehlin [00:04:18] I'm not sure our friend Mindy is going to be available as well. But we, we're gonna, we're gonna cover this and kind of give some immediate reactions. Let's see. I'm just seeing if Mindy is able to join us. Oh, no, Mini can't join us. That's totally understandable. So Megan, Connor, Lori Valo's cousin and I are going to kind of be giving a Mormon reaction to this, this verdict coming out of the state of Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:04:52] So we, we've got that live stream going. Here's what it looks like. And as soon as it starts, we'll be kicking in. Megan is going to be joining us. Maybe five minutes. In about five minutes. We're, we want to welcome all, all of you who are on the live stream. We've got a nice live stream going.

John Dehlin [00:05:14] We, we want to welcome everyone who's here. We want to do our best to incorporate your comments. It looks like the video has just commenced, so I'll go ahead and let me make sure that the. I'm going to unmute the site and I'm going to make sure the volume's turned up all the way.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] And we want to make sure. And yeah, we want to make sure that everyone can hear. So, yep, we've got that ready and everyone's rising.

Guest [00:06:02] Thank you. Please be seated.

John Dehlin [00:06:03] Here we go. We welcome your comments and we'll play them as we can as well. For those who are just listening, the upper right corner we've got Chad Daybell looking kind of plain faced with a yellow tie and a light blue long.

Guest [00:06:22] All right, I apologize. It'll take me a moment here to get logged on and then we'll get started.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] Attorney. On the left window, we've got the council representing the state. And then the window at the bottom we've got the judge. And so there's three windows. The defense, the prosecution and the judge. And everyone's kind of sitting. The courtroom looks relatively full. I'm trying to see if I can see Lauren Matthias Johnson somewhere in the crowd. I should text her, But that's fun to know that Lauren's there. I'll text her and see if she responds. Or maybe I won't she probably doesn't need any extra annoyances right now, but. Yeah, this is. Let's see. I'll just go through some of the comments right now. Yeah, it. Some. Some.

Guest [00:07:31] Okay. We're on the record on KCR 222-1623. State of Idaho versus Chad Guy Dabel. The court's been advised that the jury has reached a verdict. The court will note the parties are present. The State's present with Mr. Wood, Ms. Blake, Mr. Wixom, and Ms. Beatty. Mr. Pryor's here representing the defendant, Mr. Daybell. And the court at this time is going to instruct the jurors to please be brought into the courtroom. That will include our alternate jurors as well, to be seated. And then I will have the marshal get the verdict form from the jury once they return to the courtroom. So if they can come in at this time, we'll have them brought in.

Megan Connor Joins to Discuss the Verdict

John Dehlin [00:08:24] And while there's silence, I just want to welcome Megan Connor on to Mormon stories. Hey, Megan.

Megan Conner [00:08:30] Hi, John. Thanks for having me back. Thank you. Sorry. Second verdict together.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] Yeah. It's great to have you. Under somber circumstances, of course, I imagine. The jury is now entering the courtroom. Everybody's rising as the jury enters.

Verdict Read Aloud in the Courtroom

Guest [00:09:00] Thank you. Please be seated. All right, the court's going to next just make a reference that there is a courtroom conduct order in effect in this proceeding to remain in effect. So I appreciate everyone complying with that order, as most of you have done throughout the proceedings in this case at this time. Then the first matter I'd like to take up is to do a roll call of the jury for the record. So, Madam Clerk, if you could please conduct a roll call of our jury to make sure they're all present and properly seated at this time.

Megan Conner [00:09:47] Juror number one, red card number 27. Juror number two, red card number 219. Juror number four, red card number 631. Juror number five, red card number 653. Juror number seven, red card number 752. Juror number eight, red card 1680. Juror number nine, red card number 823. Juror number 10, red card 1358. Present number 11. Red card 1365. Juror number 12, red card 716. Juror number 14, red card 997. Juror number 15, red card 1078.

Guest [00:10:41] All right, thank you, Madam Clerk, for conducting the roll call. All right, at this time, I'm next going to inquire from the jury. Four person. Has the jury reached a verdict? All right. Thank you. Mr. Bailiff, if you would please retrieve the verdict from the jury. Four person. Thank you. All right, the court has reviewed the verdict form. I'll note that all counts have been properly marked as well as the verdict forms been properly dated and signed by the foreperson. The next step then is. Mr. Daybell, if you and council would please rise. I'm going to have the clerk read the verdict.

Megan Conner [00:11:57] In the district court of the 7th Judicial District of the state of Idaho and for the county of Fremont, state of Idaho, plaintiff versus Chad Guy Dabel, defendant, case number CR 22211623. Verdict. We, the jury, duly empanelled and sworn to try the above entitled action for our verdict unanimously answer the questions submitted to us as follows. Question number one, in regards to count one of the amended indictment, is Chad Guy Dabel not guilty or guilty of conspiracy to commit first degree murder of Tyler Ryan and grand theft by deception?

Megan Conner [00:12:36] Guilty. Question number two, in regards to count two of the amended indictment, is Chad Guy Dabel not guilty or guilty of first degree murder of Tyler Ryan? Guilty. Question number three, in regards to count three of the amended indictment, is Chad Guy Dabel not guilty or guilty of conspiracy to commit first degree murder of Joshua Jackson Vallow and grand theft by deception?

Megan Conner [00:13:03] Guilty. Question number four, in regards to count four of the amended indictment, is Chad Guy DeBell not guilty or guilty of first degree murder of Joshua Jackson Vallow? Guilty. Question number five, in regards to count five of the amended indictment, is Chad Guy Dabel not guilty or guilty of conspiracy to commit first degree murder of Tamra Tammy Daybell Guilty.

Megan Conner [00:13:34] Question number six, in regards to count six of the amended indictment, is Chad Guy Dabel not guilty or guilty of first degree murder of Tamara Tammy Daybell Guilty. Question number seven, in regards to count seven of the amended indictment, is Chad Guy Dabel not guilty or guilty of insurance fraud?

Megan Conner [00:13:59] Guilty. Question number eight, in regards to count eight of the amended indictment. Excuse me. In regards to count nine of the amended indictment, is Chad Guy Daybell not guilty or guilty of insurance fraud? Guilty. Dated this 30th day of May 2024 and signed by the presiding.

Guest [00:14:24] All right, Madam clerk, thank you for reading the verdict. At this time, I'm just going to collectively ask the jurors, all of you, is this in fact your unanimous verdict on each of those counts? Very well. At this time, I'm going to inquire if the parties wish to have the jury pulled. Does the state wish to have the jury pulled?

Megan Conner [00:14:46] No, your honor. Thank you.

Guest [00:14:48] Does the defense, Mr. Pryor, wish to have the jury pulled?

John Dehlin [00:14:51] No, your honor.

Megan Conner [00:14:51] Thank you.

Guest [00:14:52] Very well, then, I'm going to direct the clerk to record the verdict at this time. Then this does conclude the guilt phase of this trial. Because the defendant has been convicted on counts of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder, the state has filed a notice of intent to seek the death penalty. And so a second phase of this trial, called the sentencing phase, will be taking place. Next, we're going to take a recess at this time for approximately an hour. We will come back on the record and begin with the start of that sentencing phase of the trial. I would like to remind everyone that this courtroom conduct order is still in application throughout these proceedings.

Guest [00:15:35] Thank you all for complying with that. We are going to take that recess at this time. Mr. Daybell is to remain in custody at this time for the commencement of the sentencing phase. And with that, thank you all and we will be in recess. All right, please.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] All right, everyone, as the jury files out of the courtroom and as the. The court takes a recess before sentencing in an hour. As I mentioned at the beginning, I am honored and humbled to have Megan Connor back with us on Mormon Stories podcast.

Megan's Personal Connection to the Case

John Dehlin [00:16:29] Hey, Megan, as you know, as those of you who follow Mormon Stories know, Megan is, is Laurie's cousin, Me, Megan, new J.J. megan knew Tyler. Megan grew up with Lori and is part of the family. So this is a very personal thing for her. So Megan, feel free to take any time you want to just kind of reintroduce yourself to my audience or anyone's new, anyone that's new. And then we'll just turn the time over to you to share any, any catch ups on anything you want to share with our audience in terms of your thoughts about the trial so far since the last time we talked.

John Dehlin [00:17:14] And then what you're feeling about this verdict and you can start there if you want and anything else you want to say and, and we'll entertain questions or comments as they come in. But Megan, the floor is now yours.

Megan Conner [00:17:28] Thanks, John. I, I do really appreciate you asking me to come on and share this time with you. This is, it's good for me to, to be able to unpack these things. It helps me heal. So I'll start with verdict and maybe rewind from there.

Reactions to the Guilty Verdict

Megan Conner [00:17:47] I'm very grateful. Guilty on. On all charges. And I don't think I was as nervous about this verdict as I was about Lori's. I was nervous in Lori's case because I had, because it was a lot of circumstantial evidence. And there was a lot more evidence that Alex was directly involved. And of course, he had died by that time and. But this time I, I had a little more faith in the jury because I actually went to Idaho. I was able to meet with a couple of the jurors from the Lori Valo trial and we can talk about that a little later. But I just, you know, being there in person and seeing Chad for the very first time was surreal and being able to have this, this relief of, of this guilty verdict behind us, I feel like this is a finality of justice for JJ and Tylee and Tammy.

Megan Conner [00:18:49] I'm really grateful that the jury considered Chad's involvement despite some of John Prior's attempts. Of course, it's his job to try and create reasonable doubt, and it was infuriating at some times, but of course he had to do his job. I'm grateful that he did his job thoroughly because that means less likely, less likelihood of, of appeals.

Megan Conner [00:19:18] And so I think that's really important. So I'm very, I'm just very relieved. I'm very grateful to have this part, part of this over with. The next big question, of course, is whether or not they're going to give him the death penalty. I have mixed feelings about that. Maybe we can unpack that in a little bit. But just to, just to, to clarify, I knew of jj. I never did get a chance to meet him in person, but of course I saw, you know, pictures of him and his family on social media of my other family members. Ty, the last time that I saw her, she was probably three or four years old.

Megan Conner [00:19:53] Just only saw her sporadically after that. And I was particularly saddened during this trial to learn more information about Tylee's death. And it was, I think there was less information in the last trial that came out, so that was pretty difficult to hear and to process through all of that. But I'm at least grateful to have the information. I think when we have the truth, we can heal faster and easier.

Megan Conner [00:20:27] So just to rewind back for those people who may not know who I am. I first came on Mormon Stories in May of last year when my cousin Lori Valo was on trial. She was convicted on all counts as well. She's serving consecutive life terms and she actually will be on trial again in August for the death of Charles Valow. She and Alex, well, I, I guess I can say allegedly conspired to kill Charles. He was shot and killed. Initially, Alex claimed that it was self defense and they were both released and Then sometime after the children were reported missing, they reopened the investigation. So I'm grateful that she's going to face a trial upcoming in August for Charles's death as well.

Megan Conner [00:21:19] So that was the first time I came on Mormon stories. It was, I was fresh off of a faith deconstruction. I sort of, I have sort of been deconstructing since 2015, but didn't really start investigating truth claims until January of last year. And once I did, it was very rapid. It was over the course of maybe three or four days. And by the time I got to Mormon stories, I was pretty fresh in that process.

Megan Conner [00:21:46] Since then, I have watched every single episode of LDS discussions here on Mormon stories. I've deconstructed every single truth claim. I think that I've, that I was taught as a child. I've been all the way down to nihilism and existentialism, and it's been kind of a wild, spiritual ride.

Megan Conner [00:22:10] But I am, I'm in a great place. I'm really happy. My, my life is good. I've got healthy people around me. I still am in touch with my healthy family members. And yeah, this is another place for healing to start, for the repair process to start. And I, I am going to be, of course, watching Lori's trial in August to find out what, what is going to happen there. And I actually am interested in that one, I think, more than these other two because it involves more of my close, direct family members.

Megan Conner [00:22:49] They were all there, and they were all involved during the time of Charles's murder. And so I want to know how involved they were and what happened in those hours and minutes afterwards and everything and what's been happening since then. So that's kind of what I'm looking forward to in, in that case.

Megan Conner [00:23:13] I don't know what else to tell you. I, I, I launched a podcast a couple months ago, and my YouTube channel is at third verse. And my podcast, the Midlife Revolution, is there. It is all about healing. It is about making small changes that create big, revolutionary changes in our lives.

Megan Conner [00:23:37] And I've had a really good time writing the episodes, and I think we're on. Episode seven was supposed to release in nine minutes, but I, I postponed it because of this. And then I, I episode, I release an episode once a week, and then I do a live Q and A afterwards just to connect with people and talk with people about healing and the things that they're going through.

Megan Conner [00:24:01] And then I also once a month, do a live Ask me anything on my YouTube channel. And last last month, of course, it was all about the daybell case. I do have a lot of videos that I've posted about the Daybell case and my thoughts about how Chad and Lori met and whether or not they really believe it and those kinds of things. So there's a lot of content on there that is from my perspective as a former member of the LDS Church and as a former member of this really enmeshed family system, left the family system a long time ago. Also left Mormonism. And so that's one of the reasons why my take on the case is somewhat unique, because a lot of my other family members are still kind of trying to straddle that line between keeping family relationships over challenging people's harmful ideas and beliefs and behaviors.

Megan Conner [00:25:00] And so not I don't think there's anyone else in my family who is speaking publicly about the harmful dynamics in the church and the family system that sort of led us to where we are here. So somebody was asking to, to say my, my social media handles again, sorry, I'm kind of, my brain is in two different places at once. I'm trying to like, process and also share at the same time.

Megan Conner [00:25:28] I'm on Instagram and tick tock@third_Verse. My website is third-Verse.com I have lots of free resources there as well as coaching. I do coaching as well for people who are either deconstructing religion or going through big life changes. I talk with a lot of people going through divorces and relationship changes. And my podcast is the Midlife Revolution. And you can get it everywhere. You get your podcasts as well as on YouTube. I think episode nine for my podcast releases tomorrow on all the podcast platforms and YouTube is just a couple weeks behind. So that's where I'm at.

John Dehlin [00:26:08] Thanks, Megan. And I'll I'll invite you, our viewers and listeners, to share any comments or questions and, and we'll share them. Let me just read a few. I, I'll just say here's a compliment. Diane writes. John, thank you for your coverage and compassion and how you've handled all of the things this case has involved. Megan, thank you for all of your work and love. So there's a little bit of love coming from Diane. I'm sure she's not alone.

Death Penalty Discussion and Listener Reactions

John Dehlin [00:26:40] A lot of people are asking about the death penalty and, and how you might feel about that. I'm just going to share a couple, couple reactions and then give you a chance to respond. Megan, if you want. So Persephone writes, I'm not Normally for the death penalty, but in this case she writes, meh, that's, that's interesting.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] Another writes it, is it better for him, meaning Chad, to be a martyr or to sit in a cell prophesying more BS for his followers like Warren Jeffs is currently doing? So that's an interesting question for anyone who might be inclined to be sympathetic towards Chad or even, heaven forbid, follow the guy as a prophet.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] Will, Will, is there a downside to, quote, making him a martyr? Katie writes, the death penalty might advance Chad's status as a fundy martyr. That's like the darkest thing I've ever heard, given what, what he has been found guilty of.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] And. Yeah. So, Megan, what do you think? I guess you may have just general opinions about death penalty separate from Chad. And then I think our audience would love to hear what you think about death penalty. And we can even talk about the Mormon angle of death penalty too. But I'll let you start.

Megan Conner [00:28:19] Yeah. So I had, I definitely had a different view of the death penalty when I was a fully believing member of the LDS Church. I definitely thought, well, it doesn't really matter if they get the death penalty here or not, because, you know, they're going to get justice on the other side. As far as how I feel now about it, it's a more practical standpoint of, you know, the death penalty is expensive for the state, but so are endless appeals. And that's, you know, a lot of times when you have a death penalty case, it opens the door for a lot of appeals because it's so serious.

Megan Conner [00:28:59] The, the other points that are brought up are the, exactly the points that I've kind of been pondering throughout this trial is that if Chad is executed, that makes him a martyr, right? Because he, he literally is dying for the beliefs that he put out there and taught. And my fear since the very beginning of listening to, to Lori's trial, when I heard the patriarchal blessing that Chad gave to Alex, where he mentions the Church of the Firstborn, my initial fear was that there is a real Church of the Firstborn, that there are more people out there who believe some of these same things. And maybe not all of them took it as far as Lori and Chad, but the beliefs are harmful and they can go in that direction.

Megan Conner [00:29:44] And it is a tiny little faction of people that has exerted some influence in, in some spaces. And I have a lot of thoughts about that. And those people. I've done a lot of research about this Church of the Firstborn, and I've talked to some Former followers of Chad's. And I do have a lot of concerns about people who are still silently following some of the same teachings that he is. The AVOW website is a very scary place.

Megan Conner [00:30:15] And so there's a lot of concern on my part that if Chad is. If he does receive the death penalty, it has the potential to make him a martyr and to make the teachings more interesting to some people.

Megan Conner [00:30:29] On.

Megan Conner [00:30:30] On the same vein of thought, though, if he sits in prison for the rest of his life and has the opportunity to, you know, teach the people in prison and write, you know, blogs or whatever else he's able to get out there into the public, write letters or whatever, there will be people on the outside who will publicize that because of who he is and what he taught and the people who are still kind of following this stuff in the underground. It is. It is very scary to me. So finally, I guess my final statement would be, I am glad I'm not the one who has to make the decision about whether or not he receives the death penalty.

Megan Conner [00:31:10] I think whether he does or not, I think prison will be a better punishment for him. But I don't know if it's better for the world at large given what he could possibly do or teach or say while he's serving life in prison.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] Yeah. Okay. Lots and lots of really good questions and comments coming in. I, I think, I. I think it may be worth just mentioning that historically the Mormon Church has been in favor of the death penalty. You know, Brigham Young was famous for advocating something called blood atonement, where, you know, not only was death penalty, as I understand it, like death by firing squad was available in Utah well past the 1970s.

John Dehlin [00:32:05] So the, the Mormon Church wasn't. Wasn't only supportive of death penalty. They were okay as late as the 1970s with death by firing squad, because there was this idea with blood atonement, weird residue of Brigham Young that I think the blood had to actually spill to the ground and touch the ground.

John Dehlin [00:32:26] And, you know, the electric chair or death by injection wouldn't allow the blood to spill to the ground. So I know this is kind of violent and kind of dark, but that's. Mormonism does have a history and a legacy of darkness and violence, especially coming from the Brigham Young era. And even as far back as the Joseph Smith era, just maybe a different type of darkness with Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] Joseph Smith was probably more sexual predator, deviant than he was sort of violent per se. Brigham Young seems to have had much more of a penchant for violence. So what the Mormon Church's position on death penalty now is.

John Dehlin [00:33:15] I don't think they've ever denounced blood atonement because that would mean they would have to denounce or contradict a former prophet, and they tend to not want to do that. But I. I am not. I have not heard of death penalty happening in Utah for as long as I've lived here. So I don't know if they just keep that quiet or if they just don't do it. I would love our viewers or listeners to chime in if anyone wants to let us know what they know about death penalty in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] Julie is saying that we should do a blood atonement episode, and I totally agree with that. Julie is going to be helping take over the LDS discussions series now that Mike is kind of on his summer hiatus. So we're excited about that. Megan, you have a tattoo. Will you show us your tattoo real quick?

Megan Conner [00:34:09] I will. It's going to be upside down. This is. I went and got this done in Seattle with Jesse Hildebrand. Yeah, yeah. She and I designed it together. And I was up there a couple months ago and was able to see them. Sorry, they. And I. I was able to see them before they left for Berlin. So it was. It was an amazing experience.

Megan Conner [00:34:33] I was the last tattoo of the day, and so it was just Jesse and I in the shop, and eventually the shop owner closed everything down. And it was amazing to connect with them because we have so much in common, and it's crazy how much we have in common. I didn't really think of that angle until we got there and started talking about our families and about Mormonism and everything like that. And at one point, I looked out the window, and there was just a little light on in the tattoo shop, and there were a couple people huddling up to the window, looking to see what was going on inside.

Megan Conner [00:35:11] And I thought, if anybody could be a fly on the wall during this conversation, we got to say so many things to each other that we never would say on public interviews or could never say out loud. And it was really, really healing.

John Dehlin [00:35:25] Yeah, that's so. That's so wonderful, isn't it? I mean, I have to be careful because, you know, I feel passion sometimes, and I smile when I get energetic, and people are like, why are. You shouldn't be ever expressing anything other than tr. You know, sorrow and grief when we're dealing with such serious things. So I have to. I have to moderate the way my face just instinctively reacts. But what I was going to say is you know, in theory, you know, the, the Jody Hildebrandt Ruby Frankie case is totally separate from the Lori Valo and Chad Bell case. Except, you know, once we, we started drawing some of those, connecting those dots of visions of glory and kind of the Mormon subculture that kind of informs both.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] But I was just going to say there's something special about when these worlds kind of come together and the idea of you, you know, Laurie's cousin knowing about, you know, Jesse Hildebrandt and then, you know, getting your tattoo from them and having that connection. There's some power in that sort of unity of community that, that I kind of feel. Anyway, I just had to share that.

Megan Conner [00:36:47] Yeah, and I agree with you. And, and also it is one of the things that we can take away from situations like this. I've met so many amazing people. I've been able to connect with jurors from Lori's trial and I got to spend time with Kay and Larry and I got to meet a lot of Tammy's family when I was in, in Idaho. And that, that has been so healing and so wonderful that over this tragedy, so many people have come together in love and friendship and support of honoring the children and Tammy and Charles and their memories.

Megan Conner [00:37:22] And so much healing has taken place. And that's what I think is different about these cases than has been about so much of the true crime that you see out there, the victims families coming together and supporting each other. And I have to give Larry all the credit in the world for that because I think he was the first one that reached out and contacted Matt Dabell, Chad's brother. And Larry said, you know, we've got to talk. We've got to, you know, help each other and that. It's just amazing. It's, it's amazing the connections that have been able to be formed through this.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] I have a comment coming in. So many good comments coming in. Jordan Jones writes, death by firing squad is actually still happening in Utah. I only know this because I worked for the general contractor in charge of building the new prison and there is a room dedicated to it. I don't even know how that's possible if I've lived here for so long and haven't seen one single news story covering death penalty by firing squad. So I would love validation. I'm not questioning Jordan Jones. My viewers and listeners tend to, to give very credible input and tips, but that's kind of mind blowing to me if that's true. So if others have. Here's another comment from Gus. Gus Says they do and allow the firing squad. I believe the last time was a few years ago. So there's a second person confirming this

Megan Conner [00:39:02] and it is, it is available in Idaho. It is on the, it is on the table for chat as well.

John Dehlin [00:39:08] Yeah. Surely saying it has been done in the past few years. Interesting. All right. So, yeah, anyway, there's so many comments are coming in. Let's go to some of the other comments that, that are out there. So Wendy writes, let, let Chad live. So we can somehow get more answers, possibly eventually. Megan, what types of answers do you think Wendy might be referring to? Don't we kind of know pretty much most of the things we need to know?

What We Still Don't Know About the Crimes

Megan Conner [00:39:45] We know almost everything. I think the things that we don't know have to do with exactly how Tylee was killed and where. And I, I don't know that we necessarily need to know those details. And generally speaking, the, the, the defense attorney will ask for some kind of concession in exchange for information. And to me, at this point, we know so much that I don't think it's worth it to give Chad any sort of leeway or leniency in exchange for more information because he could have done that before. There were plea bargains on the table before and he chose not to take them.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] All right. Ray is writing, we neither promote nor oppose capital punishment. That's Ray sharing his understanding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints position on the death penalty. So I haven't confirmed that since I'm on this program, moderating it, but that's one person's perspective. Here's a. Here's one comment from Change Capability Institute. They write, so Visions of Glory is still being sold.

John Dehlin [00:41:02] Yeah. In fact, was it Thrift Books? What's the name of the reseller of used books? I'm forgetting their actual name. But a major, one of the major used booksellers in the United States came out with the number one nonfiction book of, of 2023 in Utah, and it was Visions of Glory. Now here's a dark thought, Megan. Some people want to claim that that's because Mormon stories covered visions of glory. And then a bunch of ex Mormons all went out and bought Visions of Glory and that's why it was such a top selling book in 2023. I don't, I'm personally not buying that, but I guess it could be possible. What do you think? Are we, are we to blame, Megan?

Megan Conner [00:41:57] I don't think so. I. Because, well, for two reasons. I think those statistics were pretty far up there before we did our episode. And secondly, I, I really believe that there, that there's still a huge contingency of people out there. The avow people preparing a people that's now turned into a new entity that are still following these claims about the end times and seeing visions and near death experiences. Experiences and all of those things. I think it's a bigger contingent than people know or believe. I'd be curious to know what the statistics are for Idaho because I think it's probably bigger, at least in this Rexburg area.

Megan Conner [00:42:36] And the other part that I wanted to say is that I think a lot of ex Mormons who were interested in what the book had to put forward, I think we gave them eight hours of information there and I don't think anybody needed to go out and buy it. We, we played so many clips of it that you pretty much don't need to buy it. You can just watch that episode and that's. Those are, those are all the main parts. You really don't need to lose brain cells reading the whole book.

John Dehlin [00:43:02] Yeah, it's, it's a slog. I think it's a slog for any sane minded person. Yeah, man. So many good comments coming in. So I'll ask. I don't know if Maven's joining us or if Julie is there, but please feel free to Star. Any comments?

John Dehlin [00:43:21] 1. One Correction. Paul writes, as far as Utah goes, Ronnie Lee Gardner was the last person executed in Utah on June 18, 2010 at the age of 49 by firing squad at Utah State Prison and Draper. Now that, that sounds right to me.

John Dehlin [00:43:42] 14 years ago. Yeah, I think within 14 years ago I remember hearing about a death by firing squad, but certainly not, certainly not in the past 10, 10, 15 years. So thank you, Paul Elliott, for giving us some information that is useful. Alyssa g. Gallian writes, Idaho brought back the firing squad in 2023.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] That's weird if that's true. But hasn't executed anyone since 2012. Man, I just. Can you imagine in 2023 bringing back the firing squad? I want to confirm that. But what do you think about Idaho bringing back the firing squad in 2023?

Megan Conner [00:44:26] Part of me wonders if they did it just for Chad.

Guest [00:44:30] Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [00:44:34] Yeah.

Megan Conner [00:44:35] Because of the timing, you know, he was already set for trial and oh

John Dehlin [00:44:39] my goodness, check this out. Like I'm just, I'm confirming it. But right now this is Death Penalty Information Center. This is post published on July 6, 2023, a bill that Idaho Governor Brad Little signed into law in March of 2023. Authorizing the use of the firing squad as a method of execution went into effect on July 1, 2023. This law grants the director of Idaho Department of Corrections the authority to determine if lethal injection is available and if deemed unavailable, to carry out the execution by firing squad. What is happening right now? What world are we living in where, like, we're bringing b. We're bringing back death by firing squad? Oh, my goodness. And that's the state I was born in. But you. You think that was literally possibly done for Chad specifically?

Megan Conner [00:45:40] I mean, it.

Megan Conner [00:45:41] It.

Megan Conner [00:45:42] The timing is a little suspicious. I don't know how true that really is, but he was already set for trial when that motion came forward to reinstate the, you know, the. The firing squad. Although I do definitely. I know how expensive lethal injection is and how difficult it is to get the drugs for that. And a lot of times people sit on death row for a long time waiting for their. Their lethal injection drug. So that specifically says that if the drugs are not available, then the Department of Corrections can resort to the firing squad.

John Dehlin [00:46:21] Yeah. Yeah. Wow. All right, well, so many. So many good comments are coming in. So here's an interesting one. So Love Tall Horses writes separate the madness of Chad Laurie from the mainstream church. There's a quote. By their future, you shall know them. And basically, I'm assuming it's a her. She's sale woman. She's saying, the fruits are wonderful. The church has donated $1.3 billion to all kinds of worthy causes and on and on. So this is basically just the argument that Chad and Lori really aren't Mormon. What they did has nothing to do with Mormonism and that sort of thing. You know, do you want to address that idea about how Mormon. I know we've covered it extensively on Mormon stories, but I think there were developments in the trial of. Of. Of discussions around the Mormon content relating to. To this trial. What are your thoughts on that, Megan? What would you share?

The LDS Church's Role and Responsibility

Megan Conner [00:47:34] You know, I actually did. I just finished recording an episode on this for my podcast to my LDS friends, because I get these comments a lot of the time that not all LDS teachings are harmful. Most LDS people are good. The church does more good than harm, and we shouldn't blame the church when. When things like this happen, meaning when people die because of attached religious beliefs. And my. My comment to that is that I agree with some of that. I do agree that the majority of the church members that I have met in my life and dealt with in my life are good people, basically good people.

Megan Conner [00:48:17] And even a lot of the leadership of the church are basically good people. But when you have a religious organization that has as much wealth as the LDS church does, and they have it, it is a verifiable, objective fact that they did break the law in hiding their investment money from, not only from the members, but from the public at large. And I think they have a duty to be honest about the amount of money that they have and the amount of money that they are giving to charitable causes and the percentage of their wealth that they're giving to charitable causes. So I think that it is.

Megan Conner [00:49:01] It's easy to just dismiss and say that the Mormon church is basically good. When you zoom in just a little bit, though, you have to see the objective fact is that thousands and thousands of people have been harmed in the church by church leadership. I'm talking about SA victims, Boy Scouts and other people who have been harmed by bishops and stake presidents, and, you know, the list goes on and on. So I think it's very dismissive to just say Mormonism is basically good. The LDS Church is basically good. They give a ton of money to charity, and we should give them a pass because nobody's perfect and because they do donate a ton of money to charity.

Megan Conner [00:49:48] If you actually go to the widow's mite report and look at the actual numbers and the widow's might report is compiled by both current and former LDS members, people who both work for the church or formerly worked for the church, and people in the private sector who are accountants. And it's a group of. It's a stunningly great group of people.

Megan Conner [00:50:11] And if you look at their statistics, their actual contributions, the actual contributions of the LDS church are minuscule compared with the wealth that they hold. And considering also the fact that they hold a lot of political power and influence, especially in the state of Utah, they have enough money and power and influence that they could choose to give the majority of their money to feeding the poor and the needy. They could end homelessness in Utah. They could end child SA in the state of Utah. They, they, they have so much money and power. And to me, the inaction is just as bad as bad action because they do have so many resources.

Megan Conner [00:51:00] I think they're getting better. They have doubled their contributions to charitable causes and to feeding the poor and needy and those kinds of things over the last couple of years. But it's still a minuscule percentage compared with the wealth that they have. So I think we have to look at any organization, we have to zoom in and to just say their fruits are good. And excuse it away, I think is irresponsible because there are literally thousands and thousands of people who have had life altering or life ending harm at the hands of church members, church leaders and people who take mainstream Mormonism off into their own fringe.

John Dehlin [00:51:41] Yeah, Laura, Laura is helping us. It's half price books. I think that is the, the company that, that listed, that listed Visions of Glory as the top selling non fiction book in Utah for 2023. I'm pretty sure that's right. So thanks Laura for helping.

John Dehlin [00:52:02] Yeah. So really quickly, so Love Tall Horses writes for the church to condemn, you know, what Chad and Laurie did, that would just be redundant. Of course murdering your spouse and children is frowned upon in the church. That's true.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] But I don't think what Love Tall Horses and other orthodox Mormons sort of take into account is that Mormonism's moral, most sacred scripture, the Book of Mormon, in, I believe the fourth chapter of the opening book in the Book of Mormon, First Nephi, it has, you know, a prophet of God receiving a vision that he should murder a man in cold blood, steal from him and lie by dressing up as this person so that he can deceive others. Of course, I'm talking about Nephi, the prophet Nephi, who in the fourth chapter of First Nephi receives a revelation from God that he's supposed to chop off Laban's head to get the brass plates, dress in Laban's clothing.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] And then even God gives, I think, changes Nephi's voice to sound like Laban so that he can get out of there and bring the plates. And then there's the verse in again, I believe First Nephi, chapter four. It is better that one man perish than that a nation dwindle in unbelief.

John Dehlin [00:53:44] Well, what that sets up is someone who takes the Book of Mormon very seriously. It sets up the idea that, you know, Mormons believe that the Holy Ghost can influence us, that we learn to listen to the Holy Ghost through our thoughts and feelings. The Holy Ghost can reveal things to us of what God wants and that we're supposed to follow it. And you know, if, if the Holy Ghost can tell Nephi to kill, you know, Laban, if Chad believes he's. Or Lori, if they believe that they're listening to the Holy Ghost and what their thoughts and feelings are telling them is that it's better that JJ and Ty Lee and Tammy and Alex and on and on and on.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] It's better that they perish than, especially if, you know, their spirits have already departed, which Is, is also a Mormon teaching that spirits come and go out of bodies and that demonic possession happens. That if demonic possession has happened, if spirits come and go, if this is just one probation, and that if the Holy Ghost can tell you to murder for a righteous spiritual cause and a lie and to steal, if, if all of that you learn at church is in the church's more most sacred scripture, then it's just, you know, it's literally just one step further or maybe five or 10. But it's a matter of steps further for Chad and Lori.

John Dehlin [00:55:23] And it's not just them, the Lafferty brothers, like that. Chad and Lori will not be the first Mormon informed humans on the planet to murder in the name of God based on inspiration from the Holy Ghost. So until the Mormon Church literally says it is never, ever going to be okay, like First Nephi Chapter four, no one should ever, ever believe that, you know, what Nephi says happened to him could ever happen again anywhere. Unless the Church were to condemn First Nephi Chapter 4 or the application of it to today. Because Mormons are taught the Book of Mormon needs to be applied to our lives.

John Dehlin [00:56:12] Now. The Book of Mormon isn't just for two or 2,000 years ago or 2,600 years ago. The Book of Mormon is written for our day. It wasn't written for 2600 years ago. It was literally written for our day.

John Dehlin [00:56:28] So what are we supposed to learn from that story? If the story of Nephi and Laban was written for our day, what are we supposed to learn from that story? But if the Mormon Church hasn't denounced and condemned either that story or any possible interpretations that could lead to murder or anything short of it, then I would say there's a decent argument that the Mormon Church hasn't done its job to prevent these types of things from happening again. Am I, Am I? What do you think, Megan? Am I, Am I taking it too far?

Megan Conner [00:57:01] No, I absolutely agree with you. And in Lori's trial, there was a text message exchange between Zulema, who is one of Chad's most ardent followers, and Lori. Zulema was asking Lori what happened to Charles because Charles had been possessed by a demon. And Lori responded. It was a Nephi and Laban ending.

Megan Conner [00:57:25] So there you have it right there. Justifiable homicide. They believed that Chad was possessed, that he had an evil spirit in him, and they killed him based on their belief, their manufactured belief. And then they referred to Mormon scripture afterwards, saying it was, it was justifiable homicide because he was possessed. He had an evil spirit in him. So the Bible teaches about people being possessed.

Megan Conner [00:57:53] The Bible teaches about people having evil spirits in them. The Book of Mormon teaches about people having evil spirits in them. Joseph Smith taught about people having evil spirits in them. He even cast a spirit out. Was it, what was the name of the guy?

Megan Conner [00:58:11] Whitney? I'm trying to remember. It was. It came up in the trial, actually. Anyway, Joseph Smith, so all, so Bible, Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith have all taught that evil spirits are a thing and that you can cast out evil spirits. And what Chad did was just took that one level farther and said that if an evil spirit hasn't inhabited your body, the only way to get it out is to cast it out. And then if you cast it out, the body dies. That was his theology, that was his teaching to all of these people that were in his little club. And they literally got together in a circle and held hands and did a casting to try and get these evil spirits out.

Megan Conner [00:58:54] While it didn't work, another spirit came in. So that's what all of this was based on. So people who are saying this has nothing to do with lds, it has everything to do with lds. It's rooted there. Yes, they took it to the next level. Yes, they took it three or four levels beyond that. But it's all rooted in Mormon doctrine. And actually I, John, I put together, I think, you know, a ton of clips from Chad's trial that explain his theology in detail. And the overlap between that and Mormonism is just stunning.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] Yeah, it is. A lot of people are asking if Chad and Lori, number one, were ever excommunicated. Do you, do you have the latest on that? I, I seem to recall that they

Megan Conner [00:59:36] were, I believe so. I don't, I don't have any, any receipts on that, but I have heard through other people who are close to the case that they both have been excommunicated. Chad wasn't excommunicated until after the children were found on his property, though. Even so, the timeline wise, you know, after everyone had died, Chad and, and Lori flew to Hawaii. She was served with papers there to produce her children, and she didn't. So they arrested her in January of 2020 and extradited her to Idaho. And then the children were found on Chad's property in June of 2020. And Chad was walking free that entire time and also was a member in good standing.

John Dehlin [01:00:27] The other, the other point that some people are making, like when the Mormon Church excommunicated me, they actually issued a public statement and, you know, it took him a while but, well, the. The Mormon Church finally denounced Tim Ballard, even though they never confirmed his actual excommunication. Are you aware of the Mormon Church ever condemning Chad Dabel or Lori Vallow or similar prepper activities? And if not, what do you think about the fact that the church hasn't is willing to like, publicly announce my excommunication? Sam Young's excommunication. Someone who is advocating against child abuse, and yet they seem really reluctant to want to publicly denounce Chad Dabel and Lori Valow unless. Unless they have and I'm not aware of it. Megan, what, what would your responses to that be?

Megan Conner [01:01:25] Yeah, so just to go back with a little bit of background, so Chad Dabell published a lot of books. He also wrote a lot of terrible books. And one of the books that he published was written by a woman called Julie Rowe. And her book was about her near death experiences. And it was getting a lot of attention, especially in this prepper type of community.

Megan Conner [01:01:47] And it wasn't very long after she started talking about near death experiences in relation to faith and being able to see beyond the veil and have visions and things like that, her stake president actually did call her in and say, hey, you've got to stop talking about this stuff. This is not mainstream stuff and you need to stop publishing your book because your book is harmful. So Julie then went to Chad and said, hey, my stake president told me we have to stop publishing the book.

Megan Conner [01:02:17] I don't think it went any farther than that. In addition, Chad's sister in law, Heather Daybell, was the Stake Relief Society president when Chad decided to move to Idaho and start gathering the 144,000. And she alerted her bishop and she alerted her stake president and I think some conversations were had, but that was about as far as it went.

Megan Conner [01:02:46] Heather actually sent a letter out to all of the Ward Relief Society presidents talking about the ways in which Chad's teachings were harmful and left it up to them, up to their discretion as to whether they wanted to warn people about it or not.

Megan Conner [01:03:02] That's about all that got done as far as the church is concerned. And I know that in general, when Julie Rowe was being sort of disciplined for her teachings, the church did issue a statement about, quote, unquote, energy healing and saying that we shouldn't be participating in energy healing and things like that. But it was very general. It was not nobody, nobody specific was named. No specific practices were named. And it was to the general church membership. It wasn't to the specific places where these people were talking about these things. So I feel like what is harmful is that we, when the church does speak up and say something, they're not specific enough because they don't maybe want to step on toes or distance followers or lose tithing dollars or whatever it is.

Megan Conner [01:03:48] And so they, they sort of tiptoe around these things rather than addressing it head on. And I think that's almost as harmful as not saying anything. And then by the same token, you have this other side that is, you know, advocating for healthier bishops, interviews Sam Young and advocating for better sexual health, Natasha Helfer and you advocating for people just being able to tell about their stories and experiences in the church and they get publicly excommunicated and they're publicly denounced. And Tim Ballard's biggest sin, I think, was having a connection to M. Russell Ballard. I think the reason why he got so publicly excommunicated and denounced is because he was claiming that he had permission or support from M.

Megan Conner [01:04:36] Russell Ballard. And that's the cardinal sin because you're, you're now attacking a member of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. So I actually wrote a big long, or not wrote, but recorded a big long rant about this for one of my podcast episodes, because the church is, is trying to straddle this ever widening gap between people who are fundamental and who are going back into Joseph Smith teachings and think that the leadership of the church has gone astray. And, and then there's this other side that is advocating for healthier relationships of LGBTQ families and healthier treatment of children, and children being protected and background checks and things like that.

Megan Conner [01:05:19] And they're both, you know, this gap keeps getting bigger and bigger. And the church is trying to straddle both sides of it, trying to hold things together and not lose people. And if they make a move in either direction, they're going to lose half the membership. So they don't, they don't say anything. And the thing that I think is so incredibly harmful is that both sides are harmed and benefited by their silence. The healthier side is harmed by their silence. The unhealthier side benefits from their silence. And it's ridiculous that they're trying to grasp onto this thing that is going to end up going away anyway.

Megan Conner [01:05:54] So choosing not to decide is a choice. Choosing not to speak up is a choice. Silence is a choice. And to me, silence is more harmful sometimes than overt acts.

Trump Verdict Announced on the Same Day

John Dehlin [01:06:08] Megan, today is blowing my mind. I'm reading now that the Donald Trump verdict has been reached and that it's going to be announced any minute. So we don't, I don't like to get political Mormon stories to, to even talk about like necessarily how any of us feel about that just because I don't, I don't like to get off mission in terms of what we try and focus on. But within the next 20 minutes, I think we're going to have a Trump verdict today as well. Isn't that kind of mind blowing?

Megan Conner [01:06:39] It is crazy. It is crazy. I don't know if they've come back online in Judge Boyce's courtroom yet, but I think it's about time for that to hear impact statements and things like that. So we may need to go check back and see.

John Dehlin [01:06:55] Oh, no, it's, I've got it right here.

Megan Conner [01:06:58] Okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:59] I've got it right here running. So yeah, as soon as, as soon as the stream comes back on a thousand percent, we're going to be going right back.

Megan Conner [01:07:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] But I'm just going to be running the Trump verdict in another window because I'm dying. Yeah. Going, going back to the church denouncing things and church doing all that it can. Is it, is it not completely problematic that Visions of Glory, now that we've been able to tie it to Jody Hildebrandt, we've been able to tie it to Tim Ballard and it's clearly been tied to Julie Row and to Chad Dabel and Lori Valow. Isn't it what emaries Harker? Isn't it mindboggling that the Mormon Church has not openly condemned Visions of Glory and told John Pontius's widow to like stop selling it or excommunicating her and disciplining Tom Harrison, who is the real author and who knows if he's making side money off of the sale of that book. Isn't it mind blowing that that book has not been publicly denounced by the church?

Megan Conner [01:08:14] Yeah, it is mind blowing. And I don't know if he's making any money on the side or not, but he still is an influential character in Mormon psychology circles and also in determining which elders and sister missionaries get sent to which places due to their mental health proficiency or not.

Megan Conner [01:08:35] He's still holding private meetings with people like Tim Ballard and he's got a following that is so large and he has so much influence over so many people because largely because of his Visions of Glory book, of him saying that he had these near death experiences and that he has special connections and that he had special permission from Neal A. Maxwell to share these stories. And the difficult thing is that we can't undo his influence unless the church publicly excommunicates him or, or disciplines him in some other way because he has so many people that he is close to that he is ingratiated with, that these people love him because they see him in person and they don't think about the harm that his book and the, and its teachings have done.

Megan Conner [01:09:24] And it's like you say, we've connected Visions of Glory, which is Tom Harrison's book. He still speaks about it publicly. He still holds firesides, even though he was told by the church to denounce it and to say that it was not real. He's still sort of on the side. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Well, yeah, I have to say that in public, but he's still talking with people privately about it. His influence is obviously still there. He's still influencing people who influence the church. And if anybody's been through the addiction recovery program in the LDS Church that was designed and implemented with Jody Hildebrand's teachings in mind, that to me is mind blowing that they're still practicing the, the addiction recovery program in the LDS Church when the, one of the people who was the key designers of it went to prison for child abuse based on the teachings that she was espousing in the addiction recovery program.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] I just have to say it looks like the verdict came in on Donald Trump and I'm seeing at least five, five guilty counts. So I think we're breaking the news here as it's being broken elsewhere that, that Donald Trump has been found guilty of all sorts of things, falsifying business records, etc, Donald, so what a day. On the same day that, that Chad Dbell is found guilty, Donald Trump has been found guilty of felonies. He's, he's officially a felon. I mean, I guess there's a chance that, I guess there's a chance that this could be overturned on appeal. But it's not a totally unrelated story because regardless of how any of us feel politically, I'm a registered Republican in Utah primarily because I want my vote in the primary to have an influence.

John Dehlin [01:11:22] But, but obviously I, I'm nonpartisan in terms of my political ideologies. I, I find value in both sides and I find problems with both sides. But Trump is not unrelated to Mormonism in this case because traditionally Utah has been the most Republican of the most Republican supporting states in the country. And I would guess there's a very high overlap between the Mormon prepper community and, and the support of the Republican Party generally and Trump specifically.

John Dehlin [01:12:00] So I, you know, I don't want to make too much of that, but I just have to mention they're up to 23 felon felony counts right now that they're announcing, so. All right. So, yeah, we talked about more that the church could do. There's so many amazing comments that are still coming in. I want to thank those who are donating to support the program through the super chats. Marta writes. Thanks for the donation, Marta. Marta writes. Megan's episode was my introduction to the podcast and she's still the best guest ever. Megan, what do you think of that? Best guest ever on Mormon Stories podcast?

Megan Conner [01:12:41] No, I, I know that there are a lot more influential and, and wonderful people than me that have come on this channel, but I was grateful to be able to do it. But Marta said it, so according to Marta.

Megan Conner [01:12:51] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:12:53] Are you going to argue with Marta? Marta's coming from Poland. Thank you, Marta. Marta also says she's thrilled that you have your own podcast. So. Yeah, check out Megan's podcast for sure. Thanks. Thanks for the super chat. We have another one, another donation. Artsy Laws writes. The thing that gets me with the churches, with the church is that my 76 year old dad has to take out the trash and clean the church twice a week instead of the church paying janitors. And yeah, that's true. The Mormon church, I like to say it's richer than God. It's got, it's worth over $250 billion. It's a trillion dollar organization. And, and I know why they do it, but they get their members to, to clean their chapels instead of just hiring janitors or paying people.

Megan Conner [01:13:45] I'm hearing, I'm seeing a couple of people kind of upset that we mentioned the Trump case. And it's, to me, it's not about politics. It's not about Republican or Democrat or anything on the spectrum. Politically, it's about undue influence and coercive control. And the fact that Trump has, he has such a large following of people who aren't willing to look at his flaws. And I think that's problematic no matter what leader it is. I think it's, it doesn't matter whether it's, you know, which side it is.

John Dehlin [01:14:22] Yeah.

Megan Conner [01:14:22] About being willing to take a look at the flaws.

John Dehlin [01:14:25] We're definitely not on Mormon stories trying to tell people what the right presidential candidate is or who's good and who's bad. I think we all agree both candidates for president have significant problems.

Megan Conner [01:14:37] Yes, indeed.

John Dehlin [01:14:38] So anyone who's excited, I, I, I have yet to beat Someone who's excited about the choice choices for this November. We. I didn't mean to cut you off, Megan, but as you know, the judge has resumed the today's trial.

Capital Sentencing Phase Begins in Court

Guest [01:14:54] All right, once the jurors are ready to be brought in, they can enter the courtroom, please.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] And they'll be talking about sentencing. And I think the state is going to be pursuing death penalty for Chad Dell. And so I think that's what is about to. To be discussed. Yeah. And just while we're waiting for them to talk, 34 guilty counts against Donald Trump. And it took the jury. It took the jury like a day to rule. So it did not take that long. Just like it didn't take Chad Daybell's jury very long.

Megan Conner [01:15:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:33] Was it just today or was it

Megan Conner [01:15:34] two days or how long was it yesterday? I think there were two hours of deliberation yesterday, and then today I think maybe a total of five.

John Dehlin [01:15:43] Yeah. Okay. For the verdict.

Megan Conner [01:15:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] Okay. Wow. So the. The. They convicted. The jury convicted Trump five times faster then the jury convicted Jed Daybell. Is that true?

Guest [01:15:56] No.

Megan Conner [01:15:57] Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's what it sounds like. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:59] Okay. All right. Again, we'll leave it to our viewers and listeners to determine their own political leanings really quickly while we're waiting. Cole 24, writes they will absolutely connect the two and see today's verdict as a synchronized effort to fight the truth. So he's basically saying, let's just say Prepper Maga, Neo fundamentalist Mormons are going to probably see, I don't know, the conviction of Chad Dabel and the conviction of Donald Trump as being signs of the times, of. Of evil happening. I don't know. I mean, interpretations are weird, but that's what Colt 24 is saying. Yeah, I don't know what to make of that.

John Dehlin [01:16:51] All right, so we're waiting. The. It's still quiet in. In the courtroom. I'll go ahead and just play a couple more. Oh, yeah. So Alyssa writes smash the like button, folks. Yeah. We've got 1600 people who have joined in and only 16 likes. Only 1% of you have liked this episode.

John Dehlin [01:17:13] Please like this episode. If you're. If you haven't subscribed to the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel, please take a minute to subscribe. That helps with the algorithm. While you're at it, please subscribe to Megan's YouTube channel, which is.

Megan Conner [01:17:28] It's at third underscore verse. And you can also find it by just searching Megan Connor with an er.

John Dehlin [01:17:35] Yeah. Please subscribe to Megan's did you pass? Aren't you almost. You're over a thousand, right?

Megan Conner [01:17:41] I'm at 6,600, 6,700.

John Dehlin [01:17:45] So you're almost at 7,000 almost, yeah. That's amazing growth, Megan. Congratulations.

Megan Conner [01:17:50] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:17:51] So please like and subscribe and check out Megan's as well. The the court, the courtroom, everyone is now rising in the courtroom and I assume the jury is now filing in. And now the judge.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [01:18:09] Thank you. Please be seated.

Video Clip 1 [01:18:10] Resume.

Video Clip 1 [01:18:20] All right. Good afternoon, everyone. We are back on the record on KCR 222-1623, State of Idaho vs Chad Guy Dabel. The court notes that earlier this afternoon the jury returned a verdict of guilty on several counts that are subject to this capital sentencing phase, including in the verdict form, counts one, count two, count three, count four, count five, and count six of the amended indictment.

Video Clip 1 [01:18:55] The court at this time then is going to commence with the capital sentencing phase. I'll note that in this case, the jurors have returned, including the juror alternates that are here as well, and the 12 jurors who return the verdict.

Video Clip 1 [01:19:09] Under Idaho code 192515, subsection 5B, the court is using the same jury to conduct this phase of sentencing also. And that statute reads that if the defendant's guilt was determined by a jury verdict, the same jury shall hear the special sentencing proceed.

Video Clip 1 [01:19:30] So we are in that special sentencing proceeding. As I mentioned, the jurors are here and present. And ladies and gentlemen of the jury, thank you for continuing your jury service. You've again been seated for your continued service in this case.

Video Clip 1 [01:19:45] And that's the matter we're taking up at this time. To give you an idea of just the schedule, the court has some preliminary instructions that are going to be read to you this afternoon. We're going to commence then with further evidence on the sentencing phase starting tomorrow morning after I read these preliminary instructions. And the court's proposal on our typical scheduled plan would be to start at 8:30. Is the state going to be ready to proceed at 8:30 with any impact statements that may be offered?

Video Clip 1 [01:20:20] Yes, your honor.

Video Clip 1 [01:20:21] All right. That's how we'll run the scheduling at this point then, and I'll inquire as to the jurors going forward. Also, the scheduling will have during this phase of the proceedings. They don't need to be limited to the timeframes we've had throughout the trial, including, depending on how long this takes, weekends. So I am essentially leaving up to the jurors their proposed schedule within reason of when we'll work through this proceeding. So the court is going to read some preliminary instructions then to the jurors. And again, you'll receive additional jurors when you retire to deliberate on this part of the case.

Video Clip 1 [01:21:01] But for now, the court will just read these, and those will be included with you later. So, in this case, the defendant in this case has been convicted now of the crimes of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder. We will now have a sentencing phase of the trial. Regarding those offenses. Additional evidence may be presented during the sentencing phase. You should also consider the evidence presented during the trial.

Video Clip 1 [01:21:27] Before the death penalty can be considered, the state must prove at least one statutory aggravating circumstance beyond a reasonable doubt. If you unanimously decide that the State has so proven one or more statutory aggravating circumstances, then you must decide whether the imposition of the death penalty would be unjust. By weighing all mitigating circumstances against each proven statutory aggravating circumstance at a separate proceeding, the court will sentence the defendant for other offenses of which you have found the defendant guilty.

Video Clip 1 [01:22:01] Instruction number two. Your duties are to determine the facts, to apply the law set forth in my instruction to those facts, and in this way, to decide the case. In so doing, you must follow my instructions. Regardless of your own opinion. Avoid what the law is or should be or what either side may state the law to be. You must consider them as a whole, not picking out one and disregarding others. The order in which the instructions are given has no significance as to their relative importance. The law requires that your decision be made solely upon the evidence before you. Faithful performance by you of these duties is vital to the administration of justice.

Video Clip 1 [01:22:40] In determining the facts, you may consider only the evidence admitted during this trial and during the sentencing phase. The production of evidence in court is governed by rules of law. At times during the sentencing phase, an objection may be made to questions asked a witness or to a witness's answer or to an exhibit. This simply means I'm being asked to decide a particular rule of law. Arguments on the admissibility of evidence are designed to aid the court and not to be considered by you, nor affect your deliberations.

Video Clip 1 [01:23:09] If I sustain an objection to a question or to an exhibit, the witness may not answer the question or the exhibit may not be considered. Do not attempt to guess what the answer might have been or what the exhibit might have shown. Similarly, if I tell you not to consider a particular statement or exhibit, you should put it out of your mind and not refer to it or rely on it in your later deliberations.

Video Clip 1 [01:23:33] During the sentencing phase. I may have to talk with the parties about the rules of law which should apply in the case. Sometimes that will occur at the bench. Other times you may be excused from the courtroom so that we can discuss those matters. You are not to speculate about any such discussions. They are necessary from time to time and help the sentencing phase run more smoothly.

Video Clip 1 [01:23:55] Some of you have probably heard the terms circumstantial evidence, direct evidence, and hearsay evidence. Do not be concerned with those terms. You are to consider all the evidence submitted during the trial and during the sentencing phase. However, the law does not require you to believe all the evidence. As the sole judges of the facts, you must determine what evidence you believe and what weight you attach to it. If any evidence is admitted for a limited purpose, you are not to consider it for any other purpose. There is no magical formula by which one may evaluate testimony. You bring with you to this courtroom all the experience and background of your lives.

Video Clip 1 [01:24:31] In your everyday affairs, you determine for yourselves whom you believe, what you believe, and how much weight you attach to what you are told. The same considerations that you use in your everyday dealings and making these decisions are the considerations which you should apply in your deliberations.

Video Clip 1 [01:24:49] In deciding what you believe, do not make your decision simply because more witnesses may have testified one way than the other. Your role is to think about the testimony of each witness you hear and decide how much you believe of what the witness had to say.

Video Clip 1 [01:25:05] A witness who has special knowledge in a particular matter may give an opinion on that matter. In determining the weight to give such opinion, you should consider the qualifications and credibility of the witnesses and the reasons given for the opinion. You are not bound by such opinion. Give it the weight, if any, to which you deem it entitled.

Video Clip 1 [01:25:24] Instruction number three. It is presumed that no statutory aggravating circumstance except exists in this case. This presumption remains throughout the sentencing phase and during your deliberations. The State has the burden of proving the existence of a statutory aggravating circumstance, and that burden remains on the State throughout the sentencing phase. The defendant is not required to prove the absence of any aggravating circumstance, nor is the defendant required to produce any evidence at all. The State must prove the existence of a statutory aggravating circumstance beyond a reasonable doubt. A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible or imaginary doubt. It is a doubt based on reason and common sense.

Video Clip 1 [01:26:08] It may arise from a careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence or from lack of evidence. If, after considering all the evidence, you have a reasonable doubt about the defendant's guilt. You must find the defendant not guilty.

Video Clip 1 [01:26:23] That in this time then concludes the initial preliminary instructions for the sentencing phase. And the court is going to be in recess then until 8:30 in the morning when we'll commence with evidence on that phase of the trial. Before we break for the day. Does the state have anything further?

Video Clip 1 [01:26:51] No, your honor.

Video Clip 1 [01:26:51] Thank you.

Video Clip 1 [01:26:52] Anything further from the defense?

Video Clip 1 [01:26:53] Nothing, your honor. Thank you.

Video Clip 1 [01:26:55] All right, thank you. I'll note that the jurors will remain sequestered during these proceedings. And we'll begin again tomorrow at 8:30. Thank you again for your continued service. And that will conclude our matter for this for today. Thank you.

Verdict Summary and Case Recap

John Dehlin [01:27:10] All right, there you have it.

Guest [01:27:11] All right,

John Dehlin [01:27:14] Megan, any, any reactions to that? I'm not sure how much we really learned from that, from that. Anything you, you take away from it.

Megan Conner [01:27:26] I'm mostly just glad that we're going to get a break today and then come back tomorrow with victim impact statements and other things. I think this is a lot for today. I'm ready to have a little bit of a breather. I don't think I was ready to dive into all of that quite yet, so. But that's. Yeah, that's pretty much it. I don't, I don't think we learned anything new there.

John Dehlin [01:27:48] Okay. Well, for those just joining us, a verdict has been reached in the Chad Dell trial. He has been found guilty on all eight counts that were against him. You know, conspiracy, theft, murder, Ty Lee, conspiracy, theft, murder of jj Murder, conspiracy, I don't know of Tammy. And then insurance fraud, a couple counts of insurance fraud. We have with us Megan Connor, who is the cousin to Lori Valo, grew up with her and spent summers, many summers with her in California. Megan's been on Mormon stories many times now. She has her own YouTube channel with the almost 7,000 subscribers called 3rd underscore verse.

John Dehlin [01:28:42] Megan, so you, you are feeling wiped out. I don't want to keep you longer than you want to be on does. So like you, you say when you want to go and need to go. I'll just ask you really quickly, like this is an impossible question, but can death penalty. Let's just say that that's the sentencing that Chad receives.

John Dehlin [01:29:08] Is that justice for Tammy and the children? Can justice ever be, you know, made or had in this sort of situation? And how, how do you feel about death penalty for, for Chad?

Megan Conner [01:29:24] I think it, it's impossible to fully receive recompense for the live the life of any individual. And here we have, you know, three in this particular trial and one in. In a trial to come and, and actually the attempted murder, alleged attempted murder of Brandon Boudreaux as well. So there, there's no way, I don't think there's any way to really feel whole again after something like this happens. It's not as if, you know, we can undo any of the harm or the feelings or anything that's happened.

Megan Conner [01:30:03] However, it is, it's gratifying to have a guilty verdict and it's gratifying to know that at the very least Chad will spend the rest of his life in prison or he could lose his life. The mixed feelings that I have about that, I, you know, that I iterated prior to this. I think that some of it is mixed in there with that. The fact that he deserves to suffer the way that his victims suffered and the way that his living victims continue to suffer. I think prison is a good place for that to happen. However, you know, depending on what you believe about the afterlife, there could be.

Megan Conner [01:30:43] There could be more for, for him there too, if you believe in such things. But for me personally, it's having the, the verdict is, is part of the justice. Having it be so public for him to be. For his sins to all be laid bare, for lack of a better term. I mean, everybody knows everything that he has said and done with relation to his wife and. And Lori's children over the past five years. And there he doesn't get to have privacy anymore. He doesn't get to have contact with his followers. He doesn't get to have contact with Lori, as far as I know.

Megan Conner [01:31:24] And so all of that is good. It's. It's good punishment for him. Is there ever enough punishment? I don't think so. For taking the lives of innocent children, especially in the manner that this was done. And that's what I keep coming back to is that there is no way to, to truly pay for taking the life of a child, for ending the life of a child and for all of the residual victims, the living victims as well.

Megan Conner [01:31:57] You know, how he manipulated his own children and manipulated his followers and manipulated his church leaders and everybody else. I mean, there's so much, much that we're never going to get justice for, but this is what we have and it has to be good enough. And, and I can sleep peacefully at night knowing that Chad and Lori are behind bars and that that's all the influence that they get to ever have. And I think that's what's important.

John Dehlin [01:32:27] Thanks, Megan. Do you feel ready to kind of wrap it up or do you, do you want to take a few more questions? It's totally up to you.

Megan Conner [01:32:35] Yeah, I'm happy to take more questions. When I was saying like I'm ready to be done, it's like oh yeah, emotionally reinvesting and listening to the victim impact statements, that, that is the hardest part for me. I think. So I'm glad I get a break before having to do that tomorrow.

John Dehlin [01:32:50] Okay, great. Well thanks for joining us. Especially noting that this is very personal and a family affair for you in some sense. Tina4RL writes question for Megan. Considering Lori masterminded two previous husbands deaths and I think she's alleging or suspecting that Lori was behind the death of not just Charles, but also the husband before him, what was his name?

Lori and Chad's Relationship and Motivations

Megan Conner [01:33:19] Joe Ryan.

John Dehlin [01:33:20] And I don't think that that's confirmed. Right?

Megan Conner [01:33:22] That's, it's not confirmed.

John Dehlin [01:33:24] Yeah, but, but she's saying given that Lori Master vine did two other of her husband's deaths, in her opinion, she's asking if you think Lori eventually would have had Chad murdered. And I know that's speculation. I, I would, I'd be curious if you had opinion about that. And I'm also just curious to hear your thoughts on if we had to pinpoint one person as the leader. Would you. Do you. Have you. I know that they're both complicit, but have you come down on whether, if you had to pick one person who's ultimately the most responsible, have you decided whether it's Chad or Lori or someone else?

Megan Conner [01:34:04] Well, actually one of your viewers reached out to me via email a couple of days ago and made the comment, I think that, that they made the comment on your channel at one point, but she said the rocks in her head filled the holes in his. And I think that's a very apt description. I think it's, it was a combination of factors. I think that they both manipulated each other to get what each other wanted. I think that Lori definitely, there's a case to be made that she sought Chad out because of his writings and his claims to near death experiences. And I think once Chad and Lori met that it was really, I'm sorry to have to use this phrase but, but the perfect storm of dysfunction and mental illness and religious hyper religiosity and manipulation and narcissism.

Megan Conner [01:34:58] I mean it was just like this huge cluster that came together and so I think the two of them definitely fed off of each other. And to the, to the question of whether Lori would eventually have Chad killed.

Megan Conner [01:35:14] Lori is, is a classic manipulator he is a classic or, sorry, Lori is a classic narcissist. She has those narcissistic personality traits, and she does discard people when she. When they've outlived their usefulness. And I watched her do it throughout her entire life. She did it to me, and I think she eventually would have done it to Chad, too. And I'd be interested to know. I don't know if she's aware of the proceedings today or not or if she's been aware of the trial, but very clearly Chad was allowing John Pryor to throw Lori under the bus and to blame all of this on Chad and Lori and Melanie Gibb and David Warwick.

Megan Conner [01:35:51] And so it makes me wonder if Lori is aware of that defense, what she thinks of it, and if she believes that Chad has sort of abandoned her. And if so, you know, would she, would she divorce him or something like that? I don't. I don't know. It's. It's an interesting thing to consider, but I think based on what I know about Lori, I think eventually she would have discarded Chad and maybe she will now that she knows that he threw her under the bus. I don't know if, if it, if it would have come to murder or not, because now that Alex is dead, she doesn't have anybody to do her dirty work for her.

Megan Conner [01:36:22] Not that she wouldn't necessarily get her hands dirty herself, because I think she does. I think she does have a murderous heart. She commented at one time that she didn't. And that's why if you want another rabbit hole to go down, Annie Cushing has a channel here on YouTube where she discusses she's the brother of Joe Ryan. She discusses the facts of these cases, but also the circumstances surrounding her brother's death and her suspicions that Lori was involved in that as well. And there was a podcast, I think, that Lori appeared on where she recounted a meeting that she had with her bishop. And it was just after her divorce from Joe Ryan.

Megan Conner [01:37:05] And the circumstances of that were Lori was finished with Joe and she accused him of sa her two children, Tyler and Colby. And there was a whole court reviewed process where they went through with custody evaluators and psychologists and did psych evals on everybody and found that Lori's found Lori's claims to be spurious. And so Lori did end up with majority custody, custody of Tylee. And Alex was angered by all of that. And he went and found Joe Ryan and tased him in a parking lot and was arrested, tried and convicted of that assault and so Alex kind of has always been this protector. And there was another friend of the Cox family who claimed that Lori paid Alex to actually kill Joe Ryan.

Megan Conner [01:38:02] And then he does end up dead in 2018, just prior to Lori and Chad getting together and, and the rest of these people start dying. So the circumstances are very suspicious. Audrey Bario testified in Lori's trial that Lori told her that Lori watched someone take their last breath. And a lot of people have speculated that that was Joseph Ryan. So that's where all of that information comes from. I've, I've gone down another rabbit hole. Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:38:33] No, that's not a rabbit hole. That's what our viewers and listeners like. I'll just share some other comments. James writes Murder among the Mormons continues that that that title was used in the Mark Hoffman documentary about known Mormon forger Mark Hoffman who killed, who bombed a few people.

John Dehlin [01:38:59] Marta. Marta follows up saying Negan is the best to listen to as a storyteller and in that sense is the best guest. And she says I have a soothing voice. So we're a good duo. I'm often told I put people to sleep, but I do agree that we're a good team.

John Dehlin [01:39:20] So I'm really grateful you would, you would come on and share a Reddish writes Lindsey Blake is the goat of the trial from my hometown and has done amazing work. Public servants don't often get the recognition they deserve. Megan and by the way, folks are still saying please like this episode.

John Dehlin [01:39:41] Please subscribe. Very few of you of the 2,500 now that have joined have bothered to like it. That would really help. Megan what do you have thoughts on on Lindsay Blake at all? I saw you nodding your head.

Megan Conner [01:39:55] Well, I think Lindsay Blake is a badass. She is amazing. She's one of the prosecuting attorneys and she's done a lot of the questioning, cross examination. She is right there with her objections all the time. If you go back and listen to some of the, the clips of the trial, she is on the ball. She's very intelligent. She has well thought, thought out arguments. She asks excellent questions and she did not let John Pryor get away with anything in this case. And I was so grateful that she was there. And yeah, I think she's amazing.

John Dehlin [01:40:35] All right. All right. So so many other thoughts coming in. Rebecca. Hey Rebecca, we, we love you. Rebecca Loveless. She has a question. Do we know if Chad was holding the calling of ward clerk when he was arrested? Do you have any idea about that?

Megan Conner [01:40:58] Megan I don't know for sure. I do know that he was the ward clerk for a time, but I don't know the timing on that. Okay, I just want to mention too, we've got Court TV in the house. I've been on Court TV several times over the last couple of weeks during the trial and I always appreciate their viewpoints. I've been on there with closing arguments with Vinnie several times and I appreciate the groups of people that they bring bring on to, to give very thoughtful commentary on the trial. So shout out to Court TV and, and Vinnie's show.

John Dehlin [01:41:31] Hey, Court tv. I'm actually going to be on Court TV tonight. So they, they, they, they emailed me like a couple hours ago. So, Megan, we take turns. I tell them to contact you whenever I can't be there, but you probably have appeared.

Megan Conner [01:41:45] Yeah, they, they asked me to come on and I, I had to decline. I, I'm sad that I had to decline tonight, but I have a bunch of personal things to take care of, so.

John Dehlin [01:41:55] Yeah. Well, feel free to join us on Court TV tonight if you, if everyone wants. Anna suspects that Chad will file for divorce before Lori would. Mormon True Crime. Hey, Mormon True crime. You do great work. We need to have you on Mormon stories. Mormon True Crime writes, the fact that they haven't yet divorced is wild. What do you think about that, Megan? Why haven't Chad and Laurie divorced yet? Any, any theories? I mean, I guess it's probably hard. It's probably hard to divorce someone while you're in prison. I don't know.

Megan Conner [01:42:27] Well, it would be easy to get served. That's one thing. I mean, you know where they're going to be. They can't really evade service in prison.

John Dehlin [01:42:35] That's a dark joke.

Megan Conner [01:42:37] I'm sorry. It's, it's a dark joke.

John Dehlin [01:42:40] Good dark joke. It's a good one.

Megan Conner [01:42:42] Yeah, no, I, I honestly not very surprised that they haven't gotten divorced. I mean, what, I don't really see what the point would be at this point point. It's not like they are going to be able to take advantage of assets that would be divided up or whatever. It would be more like a symbolic thing basically just saying, I'm done with you. Which, you know, I think, I think all of us would be, you know, so sad to see the James and Elena love story end in divorce because it was so compelling. Sorry, that was sarcasm.

John Dehlin [01:43:08] Sarcasm tag. Hashtag sarcasm. And for those who don't know that was their fake names for each other or their, and by the way, having new names is very Mormon. Right? All Mormons when they go through the temple are given new names. So that's on brand, right?

Megan Conner [01:43:25] Yeah, it's totally on brand. And I, I think I'm. Although I was disgusted by the James and Elena story, I'm really glad that Chad wrote it because law enforcement even said that they used that story to confirm the real details of what was happening in real life. I've often said Chad had absolutely no imagination whatsoever.

Megan Conner [01:43:46] He called a funeral home the day after Charles's murder to inquire about cremation services and they asked him for his name and he said Chad Daybell and then spelled it D A B A L instead of the way you're supposed to spell it. So that's as creative as he could get.

Megan Conner [01:44:07] And the year after Chad and Lori met in person for the first time, he started texting Lori this love quote, unquote love story. And he called the characters James and Elena. But it was really Chad and Lori and it was really exactly what had happened between them. And it was Chad's way of sort of letting Lori know how he felt about all that stuff. It was so 12 year old boy to me. It was like, you know, passing notes in study hall, like I'm afraid to tell you in person. So I'm going to do it through this. Fictional, but not fictional means it just, it was gross and uncreative and horrible. But I'm glad it happened because it helped law enforcement put some puzzle pieces together.

John Dehlin [01:44:47] Absolutely. All right, so, so many, so many comments we have, we have starred Rocket Acevedo writes. Sweet Ty Lee, may now you rest in peace. You mattered. Sweet child. You are loved for so many people around the world. Thanks for taking care and loving your little bro. Jj that is a very sweet tribute. You were able to attend a memorial of the two children and I believe you even sort of spoke and sang at it. Right. Megan, do you want to tell us what that memorial was like for you?

Memorial for the Victims and Sentencing Expectations

Megan Conner [01:45:28] Yeah, I didn't, I didn't have to speak, thank goodness, but I did see thing it was in. I was held in Idaho Falls just a few weeks ago and there's a theater in downtown Idaho Falls and it was very well attended mostly by people who were in the area who were affected by the tragedy. I think that the community around the Rexburg, Idaho Falls area has honored the memory of Tammy and the children so very well. And it was so lovely to be in that building knowing that all of these people were there in a common cause to, to honor the children's memories. And it was really beautiful to see people come together to make that happen and to put that on with Kay and Larry.

Megan Conner [01:46:16] So many people donated flowers and, and so many people worked behind the scenes to make sure that that was a really beautiful tribute to the children. Some of Tylee's friends were able to write them a tribute. We got to hear extensively from Larry. They literally had to take, pull him off the stage because he had so many wonderful stories about J.J. and it was, it was so lovely to be there with all of those people and the spirit of just honoring these children and making sure that they got to have a memorial service and a send off and it, that was lovely. It was so lovely to finally meet l, Kay and Larry in person for the first time, to get to hug them, to get to meet Heather Daybell and hug her and to, to be there with Rex, my uncle and Adam, who's Lori's brother and see them in person for the first time since all of this has gone down.

Megan Conner [01:47:09] It was, it was a really beautiful service and it was very healing for a lot of reasons. So it was lovely to be there and I was so grateful to all the people who participated and who I got to talk to there.

John Dehlin [01:47:22] Beautiful Veronica. Thank you for sharing that, Megan. Veronica is wondering if Chad will speak before sentencing like Lori did. I'll have to say that Lori's speech before her sentencing was one of the most disturbing Mormon related things I've ever heard. And I know that this is all just speculation, but Megan, do you think he'll say something and can you imagine what he might say?

Megan Conner [01:47:53] Yeah. Lori's sentencing statement was just sickening and infuriating and it really drove home to me that Lori at least fully still believes all of this stuff, has convinced herself that all of this stuff is real and true and I think has had to because facing the reality of it would just not be mentally or emotionally possible for her.

Megan Conner [01:48:17] I don't know if Chad will speak. I think he is a coward and I don't think that he is strong enough to stand up in public and say what he really thinks and what he really believes. I don't know what he could possibly add at this point unless he is willing to show some remorse and some sorrow over his victims and the loss of life. He definitely isn't. I mean there's nothing that he can say that is going to make any of this better unless that's what he's going to say. So I'm really not interested in what he has to say unless it is remorseful.

Megan Conner [01:48:56] That being said, I also think that Chad speaking would answer that question for a lot of people, if he really believed it or if he was just manipulating to get what he wanted, as the prosecution said. So it'll be interesting to see. I, I kind of doubt he's going to speak. I don't, I think he's too much of a coward.

John Dehlin [01:49:16] Yeah, I, it's just been so weird to see him with that kind of, just sitting there with that weird look like, kind of doesn't show emotion. I, I, I wonder, I wonder if, I wonder if John Maas has done some sort of psychological evaluation of Chad. Do you know if he's spoken about that to try.

Megan Conner [01:49:42] Not an official evaluation, because obviously he hasn't met with Chad and in person, but on their channel on Hidden True Crime, they have done a lot of analyzing of his body language and his demeanor and his affect and his mannerisms and all of that. So it is really interesting to hear Dr. John Matthias talk about it and be, I can say, being there in person and seeing Chad in person, I can tell you that the number one overriding feeling that I got from him the entire time was smug.

Megan Conner [01:50:13] He came across as very smug. And you could definitely tell when he was upset about what someone on the stand was saying, he would give little head shakes and things like that. And he sits there with his hands folded and he is pretty motionless and emotionless and doesn't do a whole lot. He does take notes from time to time. He does talk to John Pryor from time to time, but he, he definitely just sits there very smug. I think he believes that he is a prophet and that he has special powers and special leave to do things, whatever. And if you listen to the phone calls between him and Lori, he is, he's, he says everything she wants to hear, you know, and so I, that's why I go back to him, probably not speaking, because if he's not speaking to Lori, he probably doesn't have much to say and he doesn't want to reveal himself.

Megan Conner [01:51:09] But he, he sits there with his hands on top of the table like this, and his hands are very feminine and soft and small and they don't fit. You know, it's just very weird. And I really think that his, you know, facial expressions, his affect, his fake crying. When he, when they played the 911 call for Tammy, his attorney passed him a tissue. It was like, you're not crying. Don't. I mean, he just, it was, it was bizarre to see him try to emote and not be able to. So I think he's yeah, he's just. It's hard to watch.

Megan Conner [01:51:46] He's.

Megan Conner [01:51:46] He doesn't show the kind of emotion that normal people would.

John Dehlin [01:51:52] Man, the. These comments are really interesting as they're coming in. I'll just share a couple. Ali F. Writes, smuggy McSmug face. So she's describing Chad. And then, you know, Cheryl Lee writes, chad is soulless, an empty vessel. Stephanie Eubanks writes, he's sadistic F He's. He's a sadistic f.

John Dehlin [01:52:19] F. He isn't remorseful at all. MO Emma. Emma Knightley writes, he's a narcissist, so it's possible he'll speak. Christine writes, emotionless. Ashley writes, love you, Megan. I had to share that. And then S.L. conley writes, there's no remorse. I wonder if there were signs of him being this way long before people started dying.

John Dehlin [01:52:50] And, you know, Wendy is. Is asking something that, you know, you just sort of stated. Megan, does Chad really believe his. She writes, and I think that's a really interesting question because there's a world where he's just a conniving opportunist, you know, antisocial personality disorder, human, without any conscience or soul or remorse or empathy.

John Dehlin [01:53:24] But there's. There's another where he's a sincere religious believer that is just probably praying in his prayers to heavenly Father, why hast thou forsaken me? I've done that which thou has commanded me. And I don't know him well enough to know which it is. But Megan, I'm curious to hear more about why you think that he might really believe all this and if so, what that has to say about his relationship to Mormonism. And then again, some people are saying that we're blaming the Mormon Church for these deaths. Let me just say very clearly we're not blaming the Mormon Church for these deaths.

John Dehlin [01:54:08] The overwhelming majority of active Mormons don't murder, wouldn't murder, and haven't murdered as a result of their beliefs. But we are noting that Chad and Lori's beliefs were rooted in the bedrock of orthodox Mormonism and that they're not the first to commit murder or crimes based on orthodox, mainstream, traditional Mormon beliefs. And so it's somewhere in the middle. No, it's not. The church is to blame. And I think the other side of the spectrum is, no, the church isn't totally blameless, or at least church theology and doctrine aren't blameless. But talk more about your perception that Chad might be a sincere believer, and if so, how you square that with his remorselessness, his Blank stares and his guilt or innocence. I mean, we protect religious freedom in this country. So anyway, that's just a lot. But, Megan, what thoughts do you have?

Chad's Background and Path Toward Radicalization

Megan Conner [01:55:15] Yeah, where do I start? I. I will go back to the comment asking about if Chad was always like this. I obviously didn't know Chad, but in his autobiography, he tells the story about deliberately killing hundreds of bees. He saw all of these bees and he started smashing them. And then he smashed another one and then more and then more. And it was like he couldn't stop himself from killing these bees until he heard a voice that told him to stop, which I'm sure he thought that voice was the spirit of God telling him to stop. I think Dr. John Matthias commented that it's interesting to him that Chad needed a voice to tell him to stop.

Megan Conner [01:55:56] Like, most of us would never have squished the first bee, or if we did, we wouldn't have continued compulsively killing bees until someone had to tell us to stop. You know, it's just interesting that, you know, that was pretty young in his life. So he obviously had this sadistic side to him for a long time. And those are not the kind of things that improve with age if you don't work on them. And there's no indication that he's had any kind of mental health work or therapy or anything like that. And so that's not going to get better. That Machiavellianism. Machiavellianism of wanting to see people or animals or insects, in this case suffer.

Megan Conner [01:56:41] So there was that aspect of his personality long before he ever met Laurie. And the way that I tie this to Mormonism is that the LDS Church, the Mormon Church, teaches that we can get our own witness from God. And so they encourage us to develop this ability to hear, quote, unquote, hear or feel the spirit of God confirming for us what is true and what is false.

Megan Conner [01:57:09] And what ends up happening in that case is that we either want something to be true or we want something to be false. And whether that's conscious or subconscious, when we pray about it, we're praying to get confirmation of our own bias. And so it's sort of like a thought loop that we get stuck in. And I can give an example from my own life. I was praying about whether or not I should go to graduate school. And I really wanted to go to graduate school school. But I had young children at home. I had a husband who was not supportive, but I wanted to go because it would.

Megan Conner [01:57:43] It meant that I got to get back into singing. And performing. And that was, I was really missing that in my life as a stay at home mom. So I prayed about it and I really wanted to go. But what I was taught is that you study it out in your mind, you come to a decision and then you ask God if it's right. And if it is right, you're going to feel a burning or you're going to feel a sweet peaceful feeling. And if it's not right, you're going to have a stupor of thought, which means you're going to forget about the thing or you're going to get distracted or you're going to just have a bad feeling and then you don't go and do the thing.

Megan Conner [01:58:14] Well, I wanted to go to graduate school and I had figured out kind of a way that I thought I could make it work. And then I prayed and asked God if that was the right thing for me to do. And I felt a peaceful feeling about it. I felt, you know, I felt like it was a good thing for me to do to improve my mind and to possibly have better earning potential when my husband wasn't earning very much at the time. And so I prayed about it and decided to go ahead and go to graduate school. And when I called my mom and told her about it, she said, megan, how can you do that?

Megan Conner [01:58:44] You've got these young kids at home and you're basically supporting the family with income and all of that stuff. So how are you going to do that? And I said, mom, I don't know. But I know that this is what God wants for me because I prayed about it and he confirmed it to me. And I. So I went and made a huge life change and a huge life decision based on confirmation bias. And so I'm thinking about Chad and Lori and all of the prepper community, people who want to have greater spirituality. These Preparing a People conferences were geared specifically towards teaching people to have dreams and visions, to interpret those dreams and visions and to have a greater sense of spirituality than they previously had before.

Megan Conner [01:59:30] And so they're going to these conferences basically to learn how to make their dreams something spiritual and real or how to make their quote unquote, near death experience something that gives them elevated status or elevated spirituality. And so Chad Dabell gets approached by Julie Rowe. He publishes Julie Rowe's book. It starts selling like hotcakes. She starts getting, getting invited to speak places. People are listening to what she has to say. And that's what Chad wanted. He wanted to be made to feel important. He wanted people to read his books. He wanted people to listen to his experiences. He wanted people to revere him for his spirituality.

Megan Conner [02:00:11] So that was the time in his life when he started talking about those books as real and those, those near death or those experiences that he had as near death experiences. And then people did start listening to him more and they did start buying his books more. And so he got into this loop of going to speak at a conference and saying all this stuff and people coming up to him saying, oh my gosh, you're so amazing, you're so spiritual. I loved hearing what you had to say. I could feel the spirit while you were talking. It was so wonderful. And you've got Lori listening to this stuff and, and I'm pretty sure they were connecting as well on the AVOW website because Chad's blogging was behind a paywall on the EVAL website.

Megan Conner [02:00:51] And I think that Lori read all of these near death experience books because she was obviously enamored of them and got in touch with Chad on the AVOW website and probably they went into chat rooms and discussed all of these things together. And then when they finally met in person, they were like excited to meet each other already. So that excitement and those elevated emotions and hormones, to Chad and Lori, that was the spirit of God telling them that, yes, everything Chad just said in this speech was true. And Lauren Matthias, sorry, on her channel, has a recording of the speech that Chad gave the day that they met in person for the first time.

Megan Conner [02:01:28] And Chad starts talking about gathering the 144,000 and he starts talking about, people are going to be instrumental in this. And Chad says to the audience at large, some of you are going to be instrumental in gathering the 144,000 and preparing the world for the second coming. And I'm imagine Lori, I'm imagining Lori sitting there in that conference, already thinking she's special and important, already believing that she's super spiritual and having read all these near death experience books, wanting to feel important and special and spiritual, and listening to Chad and thinking, oh my gosh, it's, it's me. I'm going to be one of the ones who's going to gather the 144,000.

Megan Conner [02:02:08] Because I feel when he said that some of you are going to be important, I felt the spirit tell me that was me. So she goes up to him afterwards and she says, chad, I've always wanted to meet you. I'm so glad to meet you. And he says, oh my gosh, Lori, I'm so glad you're here. Did you feel the spirit while I was speaking? And she says, yes, I did. And this is all imagined, but I'm imagining this is how it goes. You know, they're already excited to meet each other and they're interpreting that as God telling them that they're supposed to be together.

Megan Conner [02:02:37] And then Chad tells him, tells Lori, you know what? I think we were married in a past life. You know what? I think you're probably a goddess. You're one of the most spiritual people I've ever met. And Lori's going, oh my gosh, you know what? I think you're right. I feel it too. I think you're right. I am a goddess. I think you're right. I am going to be one of the 144,000 gatherers. Let's figure out how to do this. We have a really important mission. Nothing else matters. Nobody else matters from that point on. And that's how we got to where we got. Because the two of them wanted a life of recognition.

Megan Conner [02:03:10] They wanted to be made to feel special and important. Lori had been married previously to four people who were not temple worthy people and she wanted to get married in the temple. And so then shortly after they meet, they go off to the temple and pretend to get sealed and tell everybody that Moroni was there and that Nephi sealed them. And it was okay because Lori was Nephi's wife in a past life too. And so, you know, it's okay for them to be together, it's okay for them to have an affair because it was something that they did in past lives already. They'd already been married in a past life.

Megan Conner [02:03:46] And then Zulema testified that Laurie used to say because of her past probations, she'd already proved herself faithful in another life. And so this life, the sins that she commits in this life doesn't. They don't count towards her eternal salvation. She would hit the table and say, oh, doesn't count for me because this is my fourth probation and I already proved myself faithful four times. So in this probation, all I have to do is gather the 144,000. That's my mission and nothing else matters.

John Dehlin [02:04:17] Yeah, it's worth noting and Julia just sent me a text reminding me of this, that Joseph Smith taught about the 144,000 himself, you know, and I think that number comes from the Bible. Obviously it does.

Megan Conner [02:04:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:33] So it wouldn't be just Joseph Smith or just Mormons. Julie writes. Thanks for the super chat, Julie. Your donations matter. Julie writes, as a never Mormon, I can't thank you both enough for how you have enlightened us all. Chad will receive his punishment one way or another. You are helping us all heal from this tragedy through understanding. Bless you both. Thank you. Julie Wilburn. We are here today to discuss the verdict. Chad Dabel has been found guilty on all eight counts of murder and insurance fraud and, and theft and that sort of thing. We are here with Megan Connor, cousin to Lori Valo and host of the burgeoning new YouTube channel, third underscore verse.

John Dehlin [02:05:23] Please subscribe and please subscribe to Megan's new channel on YouTube. And while you're at it, please like this episode and subscribe it. We've had over 2,000 live stream viewers. If we could get 2,000 likes, I think YouTube might send this into the stratosphere. So please like and subscribe.

Impact on Chad and Tammy's Children

John Dehlin [02:05:43] Let me ask you kind of a sensitive question. Chad's children, and I'm assuming some or many of them are minors, maybe not all, but Chad and Tammy's children, many people are commenting in the comments that they detected an affect in the children that in their perception was very similar to Chad's. And I know we have to be careful talking about minors. I don't know what is proper or improper to talk about. There. There was one comment made that I thought was interesting, and the comment said something like, oh, here, here it is.

John Dehlin [02:06:24] Anna313 writes, Wouldn't it be sad if Tammy was the only one that felt anything in her family? And she's basically saying that in her opinion, Anna's not seeing the emotion displayed by the children in a similar way that, that, that she's not seeing emotion displayed by Chad and, you know, wondering if Tammy was the only one that displayed emotion. And we should also probably note that, let's just take the autism spectrum disorder diagnosis.

John Dehlin [02:06:58] Someone can feel deep feelings but not portray it with facial expression. So we shouldn't confuse sometimes a lack of facial expression with the lack of feeling. Those two things aren't necessarily the same. But having said all that, Megan, is there anything you feel comfortable saying with regard to Chad and Tammy's children or not?

Megan Conner [02:07:23] Yeah, and I, I want to point out too, lots of people speculate all the time about whether Chad is on the autism spectrum. And I, I think those speculations can, can veer into harmful territory. So I just want to be respectful of, you know, people who are on the spectrum, whether it's autism or Asperger's. I don't, I don't like this modern idea of just viewing somebody in a, in, you know, In a situation that's a real small snapshot of their life and then just diagnosing them. Blanket. But we can say, you know, you probably know this.

John Dehlin [02:07:57] Several people are writing, and I'm sorry to interrupt. Don writes, none of Chad's children are minors. This shows that I'm not following this case super closely. Don writes, none of Chad's children are minors. The youngest was on his mission when Tammy died. So apologies for my misstatement. They're all adults. In theory, that's fair game. But also, these kids are victims, too. And let's just be kind generally, but keep going, Megan. I just wanted to clear the record there.

Megan Conner [02:08:25] No, that's. That's perfectly all right. And I'm glad to point that out, too. Yeah. That his kids are not minors. However, they are an enmeshed family. They live super. They all live super close to each other. Emma Daybell, who's the oldest, is actually living in Chad's house now. And if you saw the. We. We really need to do our episode, because if you see the recording, the video recording of Emma talking to Chad just after Chad's been arrested, just after the children's bodies have been found on Chad's property. And she's very clearly in denial, and she asks Chad a few questions that he sort of dodges.

Megan Conner [02:09:05] And then they get to talking about finances and what to do going forward. So there is definitely this. This detachment from reality. And also, I think, on the part of the children, especially Emma, of course, you want to believe what your father says. And I'm sure that this entire time, Chad has been feeding them stories about how he's being framed and about how he didn't have anything to do with this and the children are safe and all those kinds of things. So it's not suppressed. Surprising to see some of his children supporting him and wanting him to be innocent, because it's a huge psychological hurdle to get over to admit that your father is fallible and then to go so far as to say that the way that he taught you spiritually was not correct.

Megan Conner [02:09:52] Emma. Emma talks about being possessed by a demon at one point, and then Chad has to cast the demon out. So this is what she's grown up with. This is what these kids have grown up with their whole lives. And. And Chad was also very controlling of Tammy, by all accounts, all of the. The information that we have about their relationship. And so I do feel a lot of compassion for his children because I don't think they had a whole lot of choice being raised in this environment, to see things in a healthy way, or to have critical thinking skills, or to be able to believe that the things Chad is teaching or was teaching were wrong because that's their dad.

Megan Conner [02:10:30] They grew up with it. And to, to a certain extent, you know, Tammy contributed to it because she had to in order to be a part of that family. I'm not saying that she did anything wrong or that she was perpetuating Chad's teachings. In fact, I think she distanced herself from it as much as she could. She didn't go to the conferences. She did publish his books. Just, you know, she was a supportive wife and she tried to help make ends meet. And she was a school librarian, and so she had to be subjected to Chad's coercive control and his teachings as well. So I have a lot of compassion for Chad's children and for what they have been through and for what they will have to go through from now on.

Megan Conner [02:11:10] They live in an possibly small little town. It's, you know, they. They can't continue to live there and have a normal life. So I hope that they will reach out and get some help. I hope that they'll get some kind of mental health counseling, and I hope that they'll actually get out of that town as well, because, you know, if they want to have a chance at happiness and peace, they. They have to get out of that town.

John Dehlin [02:11:36] Let me read a comment from Alayhu. Alehu writes, as an autistic person myself, I feel personally insulted by the insinuation that Chad or his adult children are. Are autistic. We do not have enough information to even speculate about that. I want to agree with Alehu. I don't. I don't believe that that's what I was claiming. I certainly would never hope. I would never make a diagnosis outside of. As a psychologist performing a formal diagnosis.

John Dehlin [02:12:07] I brought up autism only just to kind of illustrate the point that I think aligns with what Alehu is saying, which is we often get facial expressions or symptoms of any particular diagnosis wrong and sometimes misused diagnoses. So please, let me just make sure everyone knows I was not diagnosing Chad or children with being autistic.

John Dehlin [02:12:36] And we certainly would never want to do that, nor ever infer that there's any connection between horrific acts and an autism diagnosis. But thank you to Alehu for helping make sure that we're careful about that. All right, I've got time for a couple more, and then I've got to run.

John Dehlin [02:13:00] Thank you, Sylvia, as well, for the super chat. And she's thanking you and me. And I just want to remind people, subscribing and liking and your donations all help make this podcast possible. So thanks to everyone. And the main way that people make Mormon stories possible is by becoming a monthly donor. So if you go to the MormonStories.org website, click on the donate button, you can become a monthly donor and that helps us pay our staff. Also, YouTube has kind of like a subscription feature where you can subscribe on YouTube, and that's also a way that you can support us if you so choose. All right, Megan.

John Dehlin [02:13:42] Well, and again, in addition to Chad Dell being found guilty today on all eight counts, and in addition to us being notified that the death penalty is being sought, Donald Trump has also been found guilty of on all 34 felony charges. And here are Mormon stories. We don't take stances on presidential candidates and we find good and bad in all parties and good and bad in all candidates. But that is the news. And it's an ironic announcement or weird or bizarre announcement to have those verdicts both come down the same day. But Megan, again, this is an emotional day for you. We're really grateful that you've been willing to come on.

John Dehlin [02:14:31] Are there any final for. I, I think we do need to have you back on. Maybe we'll have you and Lauren and, and Mindy back on. But we also would love to show some of those other clips that you gathered. I'm sorry we weren't able to do that sooner. It's been a little bit of a crazy few weeks and months for me and Mormon stories as well. So we're just hanging on by our toenails sometimes. But, Megan, any final thoughts or reflections you want to share on a day that I know you've been waiting for that's very personal and emotional for you. Any final thoughts or, or comments you want to share on the on the day of Chad Dbell's verdict. Guilty verdict. As Lori Valo's cousin and as a member of this family, so to speak,

Megan Conner [02:15:17] yeah, this has been very draining for me. It was in a lot of ways more draining than Lori's trial. It was way longer than Lori's trial. We didn't have to listen to a lot of defense in Lori's trial because she wouldn't allow her attorneys to mount a defense for her in this case. We had to listen to John Pryor try to come up with some lame reasons why Chad should not be blamed. And I think it was pretty much a message.

Megan Conner [02:15:45] It was also really difficult to listen to day in and day out. It was. It was difficult to keep an even emotional keel and not get too invested in getting angry and upset about it. Just kept telling myself that he's. John Pryor is doing his job for Chad, and I'm glad that he's making such an effort so that we don't get stuck in appeals.

Megan Conner [02:16:08] I'm very, very grateful for this verdict. This does close a book for me, and I'm grateful to have this part of this part of it over. I am sort of bracing myself for the next trial. I'm glad that I get some time to rest before that happens. But what I. What I will always say and the. The entire reason I started speaking out in the first place, when I reached out to. To John way back in April of last year regarding Lori, it was because the narrative in the media was that Lori was a doting mom. She was a primary chorister. She was a. A good mother.

Megan Conner [02:16:51] She was an. A model citizen. And then she met Chad and everything changed. And that's not the case. Lori always had these manipulative tendencies. She was the golden child of the family. She always did have a harmful way of trying to get what she wanted. She demanded attention, and it ended up turning into, obviously, lots of horrible things. And so when I talk about this case, it's not because of the sensationalism of it. It's not because of the shock and horror value of it. It's because I want people to recognize the fact that we all know somebody like Lori. We all know somebody who manipulates people to get what they want.

Megan Conner [02:17:38] We all know somebody who is willing to appear one way in public and be a completely different personality in private. We all know somebody who says mean things about people behind their back and then to their face, pretends to be their best friend. These are. These are the manipulative behaviors that Lori exhibited and that a lot of people, we all know people like this in our lives. And it's important for us to learn about these harmful characteristics and to learn how to hold people accountable for their behavior. And when we see somebody behaving in a way that's harmful or speaking in a way that seems crazy, that we don't just sit back and watch that we don't just say, oh, crazy Lori, you know, kind of like some people were saying, well, her religious beliefs are out there, but she's not harming anybody.

Megan Conner [02:18:31] You know, she was harming people way from way back when. You know, our. Our relationship when, when. When we were kids, together, young Kids was pretty normal, but as soon as we started into our teenage years, in young adulthood, there were many times when I was subjected to whatever it was Lori wanted me to do, and that was not always a good thing for me. And I didn't recognize those behaviors until I was much, much older. So I hope. I'm hoping that people will start to recognize these behaviors sooner, earlier on in relationships, and then learn, hold. Learn to hold people accountable by speaking up and saying, that's harmful.

Megan Conner [02:19:12] Don't talk to me that way. I don't like the way that you said that about her. And now you're trying to be friends with her. Just call. Calling those things out and being willing to say something, being willing to risk the relationship in favor of having healthier conversations and not being afraid. So afraid that we're going to lose a relationship with a family member that we just sit back and watch them do harmful things and hope that they don't get mad at us if we speak up. So that's. To me, one of the most important things that comes out of this case is that Chad and Lori both had lots of people in their lives who could have said the something at some point.

Megan Conner [02:19:50] Some people did try to say things, and then other people didn't listen. So we have to get to this place where we're willing to consider not only the behavior of other people, but our. The fact that we're complicit in it. When we don't say something, we. When we don't speak up and when we don't believe people speaking up.

Megan Conner [02:20:12] It's really hard when you've got somebody who is so well liked in the community, and then one person starts saying negative things about that person. Our initial reaction might be, oh, you know, I spend time with Lori. She's a primary chorister. She seems fine to me. Okay, but listen to the experiences of other people that are different from yours and recognize that somebody else's experience, if it's harmful, needs to be paid attention to. And I think so much about Charles tried so hard to speak up when Laurie started saying she was an exalted being, and he tried so hard to get the attention of law enforcement, and he was basically dismissed.

Megan Conner [02:20:53] So I hope that what comes out of this tragedy is that we take these examples of people whose voices were silenced and people whose experiences were dismissed, and we start to listen better, and we start to listen more closely, and we start to have more compassion for people, and we start to have better discussions and conversations in our families, and we start to make sure that we heal our own wounds, our own emotional wounds, so that we don't then go on and hurt other people because of them. And that's the other takeaway that I get from this, is that when we get wounded, we start developing behaviors that protect ourselves from further wounding.

Megan Conner [02:21:37] And those behaviors can be really harmful. And if you let it go unchecked for too long, you end up really hurting the other people in your lives. So those are the things that I hope that people take away from this tragedy. And those are the things that I hope the discussions that I hope continue to go on long after Chad and Lori's prison sentences have been commuted.

John Dehlin [02:22:01] Love it. Love it. Megan, thank you. I, I have a couple comments as well, and I'll start with just sharing everything plus everything plus writes my ward is full of Lori and Chad. And that's going to be what I would like to add to your beautiful summation, Megan. And that's just that if I, if I had a mission, if I had a purpose with Mormon stories, in addition to providing Mormons, and not never Mormons with informed consent around the church's truth claims, helping support Mormons in transition, I want to help the Mormon Church do less harm. It's never been my goal to destroy the Mormon Church or even harm the Mormon Church.

What the Church Could Do Differently

John Dehlin [02:22:45] It's just been to help the church do better and be better. And in this case, there are at least two major things that the Mormon Church could do, could have done to prevent these tragic murders from happening and to prevent other past crimes from happening and to prevent future crimes from happening. The first is to denounce all doctrine and theology and past teachings of general authorities that we now know, fundamentalists and preppers and, you know, conservative members, literalist orthodox members use to justify evil or bad behavior. Again, we talked about one Nephi Chapter three and first Nephi Chapter four, where it talks about, you know, God commanding Nephi to chop off Laban's head and, and that it's, you know, better for one man to perish than a nation dwindled in unbelief.

John Dehlin [02:23:45] This idea that the Holy Ghost, that our thoughts and feelings are communication from God, that's super dangerous. The idea that people can be told from celestial spaces what they should and shouldn't do. There's no way to distinguish between mental illness, your own thoughts and feelings, and this idea that maybe there's some God or Holy Ghost telling you what to think or feel or do.

John Dehlin [02:24:15] This idea that there's evil spirits out there trying to possess our bodies, the Whole visions of glory, you know, sets of doctrine. There's so many, you know, the idea that Jesus is coming any moment that we've got to prepare.

John Dehlin [02:24:31] You know, there are so many more Mormon Church teachings, doctrines, theological principles that become the basis for crime, for murder, for mistreatment. And I think number one, the thing that the Mormon Church needs to do is to denounce, remove, purge, cleanse its scripture, its past general authority statements, its current doctrines and theology.

John Dehlin [02:25:01] Purge all of the things that we know lead to crime and misbehavior, including polygamy. The Mormon Church still has on the books the belief that women are like cattle and that virgins will be awarded to men if they're righteous in the afterlife and that men can have multiple wives in the exalted Mormon afterlife. All of these teachings can be, should be denounced, nullified, purged and expunged from Mormon doctrine, theology, teachings and practices. Do that Mormon Church. How many more of these do you need before you start making changes? You've got it in your doctrinal theological teachings. You believe in, quote, continuing revelation. And so use it.

John Dehlin [02:25:57] Use your continuing revelation to cut out all the scripture, past teachings, current teachings and theology that we know leads to crime and misbehavior. The second thing is enforce church discipline. I, John Dehlin, was excommunicated for the crime of supporting same sex marriage, of speaking openly about the church's problems, talking about problems with the church's truth claims. You know how to spy on people, Mormon Church. You know how to keep notes on people. You know how to track people with your strengthening the church members committee, just like the CIA or the FBI, or you know, pick your, you know, European intelligence, you know, apparatuses of various countries, authoritative communist or not.

John Dehlin [02:26:53] You know how to track people. You know how to gather information on people, and you know how, most importantly, to excommunicate people. And you did it with me. You did it with Sam Young, you did it with Bill Real, Jeremy Runnels. You did it with people in the ordained Women movement.

John Dehlin [02:27:11] You could have done it much earlier with Tim Ballard, much earlier with Chad Daybell and Lori Valow. You can spy on people, gather evidence on people and excommunicate them. You can stop entire movements with the September 6th in 1993, with the Sunstone and the dialogue crowds of the 80s and 90s, with the rise of the Mormon Internet in the 2000s and the 2010s, you knew how to track liberal and progressive and critical voices and systematically excommunicate them. You're doing it to gay and lesbian Mormons today, as I understand it, the Mormon Church excommunicated five lesbian couples just in the past month or two for the crime.

John Dehlin [02:28:02] And I say that with air quotes for the crime of getting legally same sex married. You know how to track people. You know how to try people, convict them and excommunicate them. You need to do that. Not with the good people, not with the honest people, not with the people that want to help you improve. Not with the people have. That have solid moral groundings. You need to do it with the. With the unhealthy fringe neo fundamentalist crowd, including those who follow Visions of Glory, the prepper movement, Tom Harrison, etc. You need to use your talents and abilities and resources to shut down, clamp down and stop these people and these movements years before the crimes and the deaths and the murders start happening.

John Dehlin [02:28:54] That's my. That's my little rant. Anyway, Megan, it's so lovely to have you. I hope you'll come back. And again, Megan, I'm so excited for your new YouTube channel, Third Verse. I know you also do stuff on TikTok and on Instagram and I'm just. I hope we can continue our relationship of having you be a voice on Mormon stories, because I know people love having you on Mormon stories.

Megan Conner [02:29:25] Yeah. I love being here and we consider

John Dehlin [02:29:27] you a dear friend.

Megan Conner [02:29:28] Oh, thank you. Thank you. You have a great audience. You have a lot of great people. And I love when we get some pushback so that we can clarify points and talk about things. So it's great to be here. It's great to feel so supported. This is part of my chosen family and it's a great day for justice. I'm so grateful for this verdict. I'm relieved and I'm just, I'm happy to be having these conversations about healthier religion, healthier family relationships. And I'm grateful for the people who support my channel because it helps me, you know, it helps me talk about my healing and I think it helps people heal when they see other healed people in those spaces. So I'm grateful for all the support for the channel as well.

John Dehlin [02:30:14] I love it. All right, Megan, take care. Stay in touch. And I want to thank everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks to Julia Maven for helping out with the comments and with the time codes in the show notes. Julia does our shorts. Maven does our post production. Gerardo does our thumbnails. He also does co production, and he does co hosting and legal analysis and all sorts of good things. Like that. We're also grateful to Brooklyn for her editing of video and our board of directors. We're also grateful for our co hosts like like Nemo, like Mike, like Julia, like Margi. Our co hosts also help make Mormon Stories successful and you are donors.

Closing Reflections and Support for Mormon Stories

John Dehlin [02:30:55] Thank you for everyone who donates to Mormon Stories to make this possible. We need your support. So if you value this content, go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor. We couldn't do it without you and we'll have to slow down or stop if the if the support dries up. So please support us. Also. Ways you can support us right now, like this episode. Subscribe to the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel. You can also subscribe to us on TikTok, Instagram and Facebook. You can follow us there. And you can also apply to be a guest on Mormon Stories podcast. Again, go to MormonStories.org and there's a application button there to fill out a form to become a guest.

John Dehlin [02:31:36] And we always appreciate your feedback here in the comments and also through email. But stay tuned for more important coverage of current events and of Mormon stories and of Mormon history and theology and doctrine, etc. We love you guys. We love our jobs. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other.

John Dehlin [02:31:58] Again, it's a great day for justice Chad Dabo found guilty on all counts, and some are going to feel differently about the death penalty that's being pursued. But we're certainly on behalf of Tammy Daybell and Tylee and JJ and all the other victims, we're grateful for this verdict and we're grateful for your support. So you guys take care and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Bye, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.