David Archuleta on Mormon Stories Podcast

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. The date of recording for today is January 26, 2026, and we are so super excited to have someone who I've had on my top five list of most desired Mormon Stories interviews for quite some time. It's the David Archuleta, singer, performer, you know, former participant on American Idol and recording artist and international superstar. Is that too much, David?

David Archuleta [00:00:33] Well, it's a generous introduction.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Well, we're super excited because we are here to discuss your new book, which is at the time of this recording, will be coming out probably the same day or within a couple days. The book is Devout by David Archuleta. The subtitle is Losing My Faith to Find Myself. And, you know, we've had your mom on Mormon Stories previously, but David Archuleta, it's such an honor to finally have you on Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks for joining us.

David Archuleta [00:01:04] Thanks for having me, John. It's. It's been, I feel such a long time coming. I've seen so, so many. I've seen several of your. Of your podcast episodes and always very interesting, very insightful. Oh, a very interesting take on things, especially coming from a place where, you know, where you grow up amidst all the things that you've. A lot of the things you've talked about on your podcast, but, like, never. It's like it was never okay to talk about these things. So.

John Dehlin [00:01:39] Yeah, well.

David Archuleta [00:01:41] And it was great to have your mom. Have my mom. Your mom have my mom and hear her tell her story and experience on your podcast. I thought that was really. That was really cool.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] And we'll make sure and include a link to our interview with her in our show notes. And I don't know if you know this, David, but when I. On Mormon Stories, just incidentally, before we jump into your story, like, my own story with LGBT stuff is I had a couple cousins who came out as gay in the early 90s, and they were Mormon and they left the state and moved back east and they stopped coming to family reunions. And then my wife's cousin Scott came out to us before he came out to his own family and just told us he was suicidal. While I was at Microsoft, this man, Ty Stuart Mattis, a Mormon, drove himself up to the steps of his local chapel in California, pinned a note to himself that said, do not resuscitate, and shot himself on the. On the steps of his church. So these were the types of things that really woke me up to LGBT issues way back in the 2000s. And so when I started Mormon Stories in 2005, this is one of the first issues I started discussing. And a lot of this time where you're young and growing up in the church. I'm doing research as a psychologist on the LGBT stuff. And so I, Yeah, I've been tracking this stuff for a long time, wondering if anybody's seeing it or hearing it or learning about it. And we're going to get into your story about how you probably weren't aware of a lot of the stuff we were doing for a long, long time. And that's how the bubble works, right?

David Archuleta [00:03:25] Yeah. I didn't realize. You said you've been having this podcast since 2005.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] Yeah, Mormon Stories is over 20 years old. It's one of the longest running podcasts. And, and we did LGBT issues in 2005, so we've been covering this for a long, long time.

David Archuleta [00:03:42] That's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:03:43] Yeah. Anyway, it's been so powerful and enjoyable to read this amazing book. Thank you. I guess we'll definitely make sure and include a link to purchase the book in the show notes as well. It's being published by Simon and Schuster, And I think February 17th is the release date, right?

David Archuleta [00:04:07] Yes, February 17th.

Writing The Book

John Dehlin [00:04:09] How long did it take you to write the book?

David Archuleta [00:04:14] Man, it took me, like, three years.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] Was it hard?

David Archuleta [00:04:18] How hard was was hard? I think it was hard to start. It was hard to get it started and be like, okay, how do you start talking about all this? And it feels very overwhelming. So I'm just like, oh, my gosh, maybe I should just get a ghostwriter. But I talked to my friend Jeanette McCurdy, and she's the one who got me to write this book. But I talked, I was just like, hey, how did you get into this? I'm like, you wrote this? You wrote your book, writer? And she's like, yeah, I did. And she's like, it was really important for me to have it in my voice, tell my story. And I was like, oh. I'm like, you're right. So I, I, I did, you know, I worked heavily still with like a, like, my collaborator. Like, she did all the editing and, like, helped me, like, get together, like, how to say what I was going to say and in order. And I'm long winded. So I was like, okay, how do I, how do I make this concise? So I, So we had to take out like 100 pages to keep it concise. But I'm, I'm really. So it took, you know, it took three Years. But I'm really happy with how it's turned out. And I feel like I was. When I was reading it out loud and doing. Recording the audiobook, I was just like, I. I feel really good about this book. I'm really proud. You know, of course it's not perfect. I even saw that there were a couple of. When I was doing the audiobook, there were like. I was like, what? I'm like, it's like sometimes when it goes through editing and like, odd, like people correcting, like, the grammar and all that, and things get. Got changed. So I was like, no. I was like, this is in the final book. And so you just learn that, you know, it's not gonna be perfect. There's like a name. It's. It. It says Camilo, for example, in the book. And it's supposed to say Canelo.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] Oh, okay.

David Archuleta [00:06:08] After the MMA fighter, there's. There's just little things like that, but with that, I'm like, you know, okay, the. The whole gist of, like, telling the story feels. I feel. It feels good, so it feels cohesive. And I feel like it stays on the theme of devout and, and the struggle of being devout to things that you probably should, you know, give your, you know, find a better balance with, whether that's being devout to religion, being devout to your parents, being devout to other authority figures. And I go, I walk people through my challenge of not being so unhealthily attached to these authority figures in my life and feeling this need to be so devoted to each of them, and the struggle of finding myself and having to let go and distance myself from these things so that I could feel like I was the best version of myself.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] Yeah, like learning to be devout to yourself, I'm assuming that's kind of. I mean, that's. That's one of the main things I took from this book is your process and learning to listen to yourself, trust your own experiences, and become devout to yourself and what's true. And good for you.

David Archuleta [00:07:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah, Very much so.

Interviewing The Book of Mormon

John Dehlin [00:07:32] Well, you know, you probably know on Mormon stories, we usually do like three to five hour interviews, and we've. We've only got you for about an hour today, so if it's okay, I. I've loved the book. It's very well written. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. And I'm gonna be focusing on the Mormon parts of your story. Is that okay?

David Archuleta [00:07:51] Sure, let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] Okay. So I get a sense from your book that your Mormon upbringing might be a little bit non traditional. Just because your family was in some ways, maybe not totally traditional compared to, let's just say, an average Utah family. So tell us just what, really briefly, to what extent was Mormonism an important part of your childhood and let's say early teen years before your music career started taking off?

Mormons in My Life

David Archuleta [00:08:21] Yeah, I mean, I didn't really know life without it. I was born in my. Both of my parents are already members of the church by the time I was born. My mom was a convert when she was in Honduras and my dad grew up. Both of his parents were converts, but they joined when they were teenagers, so he was born into it as well. And you know, we. I was in Florida, so, you know, when I was little, little, I knew that people like we went to a church and not every, not all of our neighbors and not all of our friends went to that same church, but it was, I was so young, I didn't think too much about it. It was just, it just was part of life. Family, home, evenings, going to church,

Guest [00:09:11] you

David Archuleta [00:09:12] know, dressing up on Sunday, just, you know, the normal, normal things. And then when we went to Utah, I feel like it really, I mean, it was everywhere. It was a part of everything. And so many people in your neighborhood went to your church, the same church as you, and had the same beliefs. And so that, that was pretty interesting. And I, you know, it shaped a lot of what. How I was raised, because I was raised all around Mormon culture, ideologies, beliefs, like everyone having the same goal, living by the same rules. And it made everything feel really just, Just very universal. Like everywhere you. It made everything feel cohesive, you know, everyone having the same, same beliefs. And like, so it's like you really have this sense of community, which I thought was nice. And I think in that very much you. I started learning like, the importance of fitting in. And that's why I think it also made me more self conscious when it's like, oh, this doesn't make me fit in. And fitting in is important, is. Is what it felt like because, I mean, everyone was basically, you know, white, a lot of blonde people, which is pretty different after coming from Miami. And you know, all my mom's family and friends were Hispanic for the most part. So to go to Utah and just be like, oh, my mom is the only brown person in this congregation. And I remember like time, like I was 10 years old, 10 or 11, and my mom was so excited because we moved into an a neighborhood and into a ward where there was another person from Honduras. So it wasn't just another Hispanic person. But she was from Honduras as well. And my mom was just so happy because there was someone else who was like her. And I thought it was interesting that my mom, I think we were always, like, everyone was always nice. You know, everyone was. Helped each other out, and I loved that aspect. I actually, you know, originally, a lot of the pages that I took out talked about what it was like growing up Mormon and the culture and the neighbors. And yeah, I, I didn't, it just, it didn't really help. I was like, okay, what do I keep and what do I take out? So I had to take out a lot of that, unfortunately. But there's, it was really beautiful. Like, it felt like a little safe bubble. Like, everyone was really innocent. Like, even the older people in the neighborhood were so sweet. And it's like they were, they just lived in. A lot of them lived in Utah their whole life, so it's just very wholesome. And so I feel like I got a lot of my traits from growing up in that and being homeschooled a lot. So when I was homeschooled, the, like, I still like to go out and, like, rollerblade when I would have little breaks during school. And the only people that were home were usually the widows and, like, the older retired folks. And so a lot of the people I would talk to were those older Mormon widows and ladies. And, you know, what they usually wanted to talk about was the church. Like, one of my neighbors, like, the only thing she ever watched was BYUtv and that was it. And like, the Ensign magazines. And so a lot of these women, like, they just lived in that bubble. And I was just like, I kind of was like, oh, I guess I should be like them. I, because they're so sweet and they go to the temple and they, they seem very stalwart, and it seems like all these people are getting into heaven, no problem. So I, I should follow a little more of their character and their traits and.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Yeah, makes total sense.

David Archuleta [00:13:11] And I felt like I belonged with them, too.

Singing in the Primary Song

John Dehlin [00:13:13] I love it. Let me ask you really quickly. For me, singing primary songs was really formative to my Mormon upbringing. Did you, Was Mormonism important in the development of your singing? Do you have any, did you have any favorite primary songs? Did you have any favorite hymns? And did you enjoy singing as a Mormon at church?

David Archuleta [00:13:36] Yeah, I, I, I loved it. I thought the hymns are great. I loved the harmonies. I sang in the church choir even when I was 9 and 10 years old and I was the only kid in, in the choir, but I just Loved it. I loved feeling together with everybody. I loved that everyone's saying like in one voice, but it sounded so. It just felt so cool to, to be a part of something and something musical that we were all making together. And

John Dehlin [00:14:10] when you think about, when you think about like Whitney Houston, she'll say that she developed her voice singing at church and I wondered if you had some of that might be true for you as well.

David Archuleta [00:14:20] Yeah, I would say like the gentleness in a song, like the reverence. I feel like there's still like a bit of reverence that I might carry when I'm singing a song or singing a ballad. Something more emotional that I. I really feel you hone in that skill singing in church.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] Yeah, yeah.

David Archuleta [00:14:41] And the message, like the message songs, like I learned that from church as well.

John Dehlin [00:14:46] Absolutely. Did you have any favorite primary songs or church hymns that you just really loved that were Mormon?

Mormons Love Their Hymns

David Archuleta [00:14:53] Yeah, I. I loved Come Come you Saints. What else? I loved I See My Mother Kneeling. I loved that one. Love is spoken here. Yeah, I referenced that in the book and like I lived in heaven a long time ago, that one. And then I loved the. I love to see a rainbow whenever there is rain, that one. It's really beautiful melodies that they have in there. So I think I learned like the sensitivity of, of music and singing from church, you know, there. I feel like Mormons are really good with that, like just being sensitive, soft, reverent. There's not really like that normal like the non denominational churches or the Baptist churches or wherever where they got the, the clapping. Everybody like up, up on their feet and clapping and shouting and praise, which I always missed. I was like, I wish we would do more of this in the Mormon Church. Yeah.

Marriage and LGBT themes in the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [00:16:34] Okay. Do you remember getting any messages like about, you know, LGBT themes or even the law of chastity growing up? Because I know that especially when a Mormon kid hits those teen years, they start to get messages around law of chastity, purity and even about, you know, sin. And do you remember picking up any of those messages? Let's just say again before your career kind of started taking off. And also, do you remember having any feelings as a, like a early adolescent that you started to feel like maybe you might be different than other boys, kind of Mormon boys, that kind of thing?

David Archuleta [00:17:19] Yeah, so I grew up. Yeah. You just hear it over the pulpit. Different speakers, different leaders, different firesides that they would have where they would talk about homosexuality and it being a sin and, and like some of the classes where they would teach about Sodom and Gomorrah, I always felt like it was interesting because they would say like, the sin of sodomy and, and the reason that it, they would say it was homosexuality that was the sin. But like, I would read the Scriptures and I would always find it interesting. Like, I didn't think of myself as a homosexual or gay or having the sin of sodomy, but I always would read that part and I'd be like, oh, interesting. Like, I don't see where it clearly states that it's homosexuality that is the sin. Yeah, I, I get that. That's how it's interpreted. I don't, you know, it would say, like, so that we may know him. So I don't know. They, it could have been like a sexual thing. But I also just thought like, you know, that was, that's the only thing where it says it. And it's quite unclear. It like, doesn't just straight up say it. So I'm like, how did they interpret it that, that way? And.

John Dehlin [00:18:32] But it always blew my mind that the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, Book of Abraham, you know, Book of Moses, all of Mormon scripture is 100% silent on homosexuality. 100%. And doctrine and Covenants, there's no mention of it anywhere. It blew me away when I realized that was true.

David Archuleta [00:18:55] I guess they look at it as, well, it doesn't need to say it because it talks about the importance of marriage and like a man and a woman and creating family. And the post, like, particularly in Doctrine and Covenants, like, that's the, the greatest degree of the celestial kingdom is through the, the everlasting covenant of marriage.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] Yeah.

David Archuleta [00:19:16] So it's like I, I guess they, they take it and the leaders take it as well. We don't need to state it because we already state how important marriage is. So anything that's against that goes against the most important thing.

John Dehlin [00:19:29] Right.

David Archuleta [00:19:29] So it must be bad.

Mormons talk about homosexuality in the Church

John Dehlin [00:19:30] When you were, when you were younger, the Miracle Forgiveness book by Spencer B. Kimball would have still been available for purchase. And in that book written by A former Mormon prophet. It basically said things like masturbation leads to homosexuality and that, you know, people would be better dead than sexually unclean. Do you remember the miracle of forgiveness? You know, influencing. Did that ever come into your Mormon consciousness growing up? That. That book or those types of teachings comparing homosexuality to bestiality and calling it, like, a perversion or. Or that sort of thing?

David Archuleta [00:20:08] Yeah, no. Yeah, they would. I feel like a lot of leaders and adults when I was growing up, like, Spencer W. Kimball was their prophet. They. And a lot of those older leaders, him and Bruce Armaconkey, like, that. They were like my. Like when I was a kid, the adults generation of people that they looked up to and would quote all the time and like, that. Those were their, like, prophets and seers and revelators. So we would get taught those same things. And yes, Spencer W. Kimball's quotes about homosexuality and masturbation were. Were taught to us and. And just told that as if it were fact, you know, and that's how a lot of Mormons look at their leaders, is if. If a. If an apostle or a prophet says something, you take it as scripture, you take it as truth. It is from God, and that's what we're supposed to take. But, you know, I think looking back, it's like, oh, a lot of these things that they were saying were opinions or it was. It. It was heavily influenced by the culture at the time that they were raised. And so for them, it was just. It was just what everyone thought. So they would just say the same thing that everyone else thought. And then, you know, 20, 30, 40 years later, it's like, oh, well, we. We know. We know better now. And it's just interesting because a lot of times Mormons are told like, oh, well, well, God has revealed more. You know, God has revealed more. And that's why it changed. And it's like, well, or maybe they were just wrong, you know, or. And. And misinformed. And because everyone else thought the same thing at the time, they just assumed it was the right thing. It wasn't that God suddenly revealed some. It's like, yeah, it's just. Y' all realized you were misinformed. And I guess I questioned the. You know, from talking to Elder Ballard and hearing about and thinking about the revelations that they would receive and realizing. I'm like, oh, sometimes they just realize, okay, we can't keep this up anymore. Because, you know, and I think that's what's a little frustrating is like, well, it just. The revelations move a little behind Whatever the trends of society are, like, once it's universally acceptable and they can't hold on to an old ideology anymore, they have to change it. Yeah. I just don't understand why there's a lot of, you know, dragging. Of dragging their feet to. If it's supposed to be God's church. It's like they. I feel like they play it too safe and let other people decide when it's like, shouldn't you be the trendsetters? But I think, you know, they're. They're very cautious. They want to play it safe. They don't want to get in trouble. They don't want to be viewed as not Christian. And I feel like those are greater priorities to them rather than to do the trend and really find out what God's view on something is. It seems like they have to kind of let the, the old other generation, like, fade out. Phase out.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] Yeah.

David Archuleta [00:23:23] And then like, once the new generation's like, well, we already believe this and we already think this, then it's like, okay, now we can officially change.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] Yeah.

David Archuleta [00:23:30] The. Our statement or take something back or update it, because there are enough people who don't. Who wouldn't disagree with us, who would speak out.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] Yeah.

David Archuleta [00:23:41] But it just feels like, I don't know if it's supposed to be like the church that receives the revelation. It's like you're always just playing late to the game, you know, that everyone else has already picked up on.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] Right.

David Archuleta [00:23:56] You're the ones that are supposed to have the revelation here.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] Yeah. Anyway, so in your book on page 95, you talk about. And again in your book Devout, you talk about starting to have almost like erotic dreams and wanting to hide those sort of feelings from your mom, having fear. Can you talk about when you started noticing that as a Mormon young man you were having erotic or different types of dreams? When you started noticing you might be different and then what that was like for you to either be fearful or to want to hide the types of feelings that were starting to emerge.

Marriage as a Mormon man

David Archuleta [00:24:42] Yeah. When I was a kid, I, like in kindergarten, I would get jealous of this boy who was playing with this girl in our class. And I was like, why is, you know, why is he playing with her? And I, I guess that's when I first felt like I had feelings for someone else that wasn't just like familial. It was like jealousy and envy or like feeling a bit of a crush on someone. And then when I was like 7 or 8. Think I was 7 years old, 7 or 8, where some of the neighbor kids taught us about kissing, and then they taught us about sex. And I. I feel like they probably went through some stuff that they were.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] Yeah.

David Archuleta [00:25:36] I'm not sure what. What they dealt with growing up or how they were raised, but they knew a lot of things. And they were inviting my sister and. And me to go over and kiss and to French kiss. And they even. They were even trying to pressure us into sex, like, oh, if we were open. And it didn't ever get to that point, but that was something that they wanted to experiment with. And my. My grandma, I guess, had some suspicion that we were doing things we shouldn't have been doing. She got mad at us. And then my cousin overheard my grandma getting mad at my sister and me. And then my cousin told my mom. My mom didn't know what happened. She just got furious. She was. She got like. She was so pissed off that we had done something, but we didn't know what we had done because she never told us. So she's like, you do not. You never do that again. And we're just like, never do what again? Like, you didn't ever ask us what happened. So I think we. At least in my head, I was like, oh, no.

Guest [00:26:46] I.

David Archuleta [00:26:46] It was shameful that I did whatever I did. I'm not supposed to kiss somebody, and it's bad. Like, I. And then following from there is where it just. It got a little. It just got messy in my. In my perception of touch and of intimacy really got distorted because just. Well, in between that time, I had an incident where I was visiting my mom's circle of people, like her family, her friends in Florida, back in Miami. Because my mom is very. She's always been really tight with her. Her, like, her people in. And her. Like, her family and her friends. And that's where I was staying with one of them. With one of her. One of the family friends. And they started telling me this stuff about my dad and saying that he was a bad person and that men in general can have really evil tendencies. And. And that I shouldn't trust. I shouldn't trust, and I shouldn't trust my dad. And I was told that my dad had touched my sisters. And I didn't know what that meant because I was nine years old. I wasn't told about sexual assault and molestations. And so when I was. That's all I was being told is, like, your dad touched your sisters? And I was like, is that supposed to be bad? Like, I don't understand why touching them is bad. And then they started trying to elaborate a little more of, like, why that is bad. And I was a little confused. And they started telling me that, like, oh, when you're touching, it can be bad in this way, or, like, kissing and stuff. And I was like, oh, well, I just. I. That's why I got in trouble with my mom, because I kissed that girl. And around that time, I also started. This was like, I. I was in, like, second grade, and there's a boy I was friends with in my class in second grade. And I felt that same feeling of, oh, I feel kind of like a rush and like an adrenaline being near him and talking to him and walking home with him and feeling flushed in my cheeks. And I didn't really understand what that was because I wasn't ever informed that you could feel that way for another boy, being a boy. So I was pretty confused. But, you know, it's like, what do you say? I couldn't even talk to my parents, really about what I did with a girl. So I was like, I can only imagine what would happen if I talked to them about. Have feelings for a boy. And so I just thought something was wrong with me. And then when this family friend started telling me about how my dad was doing bad things and that men are bad, and I was like, okay, I must be bad too. So I just kind of interpreted it as like, okay, this makes sense. I'm feeling something I wasn't supposed to, that I couldn't understand. And it's probably because I'm inherently bad. And around that same time, like, second grade, I started getting picked on because I was not as sporty as the other boys. I wasn't as. I just wasn't as boyish as. As far as it came to, like, being tough and testosterone. I was more sensitive. I also would sing. So I was compared to a girl a lot of times. And I was. You know, that was embarrassing because apparently it's. It's bad to be a girl is what it seemed like. The. The common consensus was like. I was like, oh, I'm not. Well, if you're. If you act like a girl, it's bad because it's not. It's not good to be a girl. And girly, you know, that's. That was just. You know, I imagine kids. I don't know if they still say it, but it's. It's something to think about too. It's like, why is it bad to

"It's Not Good to Be a Girl"

John Dehlin [00:31:21] be like a girl or have feminine traits? Yeah. So as. So as you're getting into your teen years, where you might be attending young men's, young women's. The church is really emphasizing that porn and masturbation are super evil, that sexual sin is next to murder, and kids start talking about crushes and dating. How are you experiencing that, being part of the young men's, young women's program as a young Mormon youth with all those internalized negative messages that you were getting growing up?

Marissa on Being Gay in the Mormon Church

David Archuleta [00:31:56] You know, I felt awkward about it, and I. Once I started understanding what it meant, at least the church's interpretation of being gay and that it was a choice. You know, at the time I was. When I was young, we were taught that it was a choice. And, you know, people still, a lot of times are taught. I think they've updated that as they've gained more understanding that it's like, you know what. It seems like not everyone chooses this.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] Yeah.

David Archuleta [00:32:25] And a lot of times it seems like more often than not, people are not choosing to be gay, not choosing to be queer.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] Yeah.

David Archuleta [00:32:33] And. But, you know, at the time when I was. When I was in young men's and young women's, we were taught that, yeah, it's. It's a choice, and people who choose to be that way are sinning, and it's one of the worst sins. As you were saying that it was, you know, being compared to murder. It was. It was being compared to murder. It was being compared to bestiality and, like, the sickening, gross, unnatural thing. And so I was just like, wow, there's something very unnatural about me and something's wrong. I was. I kind of just was like, what is wrong? Like, what have I done? I. I looked at it as a manifestation that I had sinned and not properly repented of something or I wasn't doing enough that I was doing something disobedient in my life to be feeling the way I was. So you just. You just try harder. You know, you work extra to be more obedient, to be more disciplined, to have the spirit more often with you because you're afraid of what's inside of you. So I think it. It. It leads to becoming a lot more obsessive of being a good Mormon and a good obedient person to make up for what's inside of you that you think is bad, and you must have done something wrong that you need to fix.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] Now, my experience and my research showed that oftentimes LGBT people would develop. LGBT Mormons would develop scrupulosity as a way to try and, let's just say, ungay themselves that if you served in multiple callings, read the scriptures and prayed all the time, always tried to work on your thoughts, that somehow you could be righteous enough to make the gayness go away. And so I think there's a real tie between being a gay or lesbian Latter Day Saint and the development of religious OCD or scrupulosity. Is that how it played out? According to what I read in your book, that's kind of how it played out for you, is that right? You want to talk about that?

David Archuleta [00:34:40] Yes, absolutely. And yeah, that's. I feel like I've, you know that some of the podcasts that you've done, I've seen you talk about that. And it was interesting because especially after my mission, I felt very like, be in the world, not of the world, and I have to make sure I protect myself and do not let myself get tainted by the outside world. So there was a time where I wasn't listening to much of trendy music. I was mostly trying to listen to just. I mean, I would listen to more the Mormon Channel. There's this. There's this app that the church created for people who, who wanted to just stay in the faith and in that protected bubble. And I, I would listen to the Mormon channel. Like, I would listen to it every day.

John Dehlin [00:35:35] Mormon Tabernacle Choir, right? Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Church music. How about church pop? Church pop.

David Archuleta [00:35:42] Church Pop. Yeah. Who are some of the pop music.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] Who are some of the Mormon pop artists that you listen to just for fun or do you remember?

David Archuleta [00:35:50] I mean, I, I preferred like Christian gospel music.

John Dehlin [00:35:55] Okay.

David Archuleta [00:35:56] Like, over that. So I would, I would listen more to that on my free time. And then. Mormon Channel I liked more because of the talks. Oh, like the discussions. And one of the discussions that came up was they. They brought a therapist on. And I had always. We were taught at least me growing up in the church, to be wary of therapists because sometimes they could be in contrary to the teachings of the church if they got too scientific or if they challenged you to think in ways that went against what the church's teachings told you is God's truth. Or I feel like may challenge your. Your, like, loyalty to the church, perhaps. Like, it's like, well, if we. You kind of have to be conditioned to think this way and to avoid questioning things. And I feel like they didn't want you to meet with therapists who might help you see outside of that. And I, I believe that though. I believed I was like, no, I gotta stay away because science sometimes. D. What's it called. Like, it writes off what the. What God.

John Dehlin [00:37:26] Yeah.

David Archuleta [00:37:26] Was supposed to have said. But the. On this Mormon channel, they. One of the interviews that was going on was with a therapist. And so I thought, you know what, I could use some therapy again. I, I'd been to therapists before, but I, I wanted to meet with someone who was Mormon and a good source. And so she, this Mormon therapist was actually the one that said, I, she's like, I would like you to look into obsessive compulsive thinking and see if you relate to this. And I looked at, I was like, oh my gosh, that's exactly what I go through. And then she's like, I'd like you to look up this. This is one of the categories, like one of the divisions in obsessive compulsive disorder, Obsessive compulsive thinking, scrupulosity. And I was like, what is that? And I, she's, she's like, I think this is something. Let me know. Because I, she's like, I can't diagnose you because I'm not in your state and stuff. But she's like, let look into this and see if you relate, if this is something you identify. And I looked at it, scrupulosity, but I was just like, oh, but what's wrong with this?

What Is Obsessive-Compulsive Mormonism?

John Dehlin [00:38:38] Yeah.

David Archuleta [00:38:40] So I was just like, if anything, I feel like this is what any righteous member of the church would strive for.

John Dehlin [00:38:47] Yeah.

David Archuleta [00:38:49] And you're telling me that this could be a disorder. Like, I was like, okay, there's that like voodoo stuff that they were talking about, like this. Woo, woo. But she started going into it and she's like, you know, people can be devout to their church and they can follow the rules, but there is a certain point where it gets obsessive. And I was like, well, if anything, I would want to be obsessed with God. So I was just kind of like, I don't see what's the issue here. Like, this is what I hope to like, this is what's going to help people get into the celestial kingdom. So. But I always, it was always something that really I kept in my mind, you know, And I've looked back to a lot now because I'm like, oh, I get it. It makes sense. Especially when I came out and, and when I eventually left the church in 2022, I was like, oh, I was. I see the patterns of scrupulosity and how I was very obsessed and unhealthily obsessed, but I was praised for being obsessed. Yeah, that's I mean that was exactly my situation where I just got to a point where I gave up because I was like, I can try everything I know how. And I'm doing my best to live these teachings because I was told that if I lived those teachings I would be healed and that I needed to be I1. I needed to be healed and I could be healed if I did everything I was supposed to.

Mormons talk about same-sex attraction

John Dehlin [00:40:22] So were you told that you would stop? You would, you would be able to lose your feelings of same sex attraction if you like were righteous enough or served a mission? Did someone tell you that at some point?

David Archuleta [00:40:35] I feel like it was discussed several times in church, in meetings. I wasn't honest with myself. I didn't really come to terms with my like my same sex feelings. Like my, until I was on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] Okay.

David Archuleta [00:40:56] You know, I, up until that point I just thought you're not supposed to acknowledge this. Like if you do makes it more real. And I don't want to think that this is real. So I, I just really tried to, you know, just as you mentioned, I. Out of mind.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] Turn it off like a light bulb, right?

David Archuleta [00:41:15] Turn it off like a light switch.

John Dehlin [00:41:17] Yeah, it's a cool Mormon talk about that.

Elder Archuleta on Being Attractive on a Mission

David Archuleta [00:41:20] So.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Yeah, you do talk in the book about developing, well, how living with men and being emotionally intimacy intimate with other male Mormon missionaries started to be started. I don't know if burden is the right word, but talk about how these feelings started to emerge while you're on a mission and maybe even with a companion that you were living with. Do you want to talk about that?

David Archuleta [00:41:47] Yeah, I mean it happened everywhere. I, what I was able to avoid was unavoidable on the mission because you have to be with a, a man your age like all the time. And that was something I was able to avoid before. Like if, you know, if I felt like it crossed my boundaries that I needed to stay within, I could just remove myself from a situation, go isolate myself. Hide on your mission, you can't, you can't hide. You're constantly with your feelings. You're constantly around other young men your age. And so you're constantly with, you're confronting your feelings of what it feels like to be around other men that you could be attracted to physically and get a hormonal reaction from like this chemical reaction that happens. And it's you, you're trying, you don't want it to happen, but it's just like, it's like a pull. Like you, when you're attracted, you pull into something. And so for Me, it was very embarrassing. Like, I was just like, this is very. For me, I was like, this is very concerning. And I'm like, I clearly have an issue. But for me, I, you know, I just thought, you know, obedience and staying true to the commandments and, and to the rules, the mission rules, I would. I would be blessed and I would be healed, you know, through my faith. And so I was just. I kept thinking, I'm like, what am I doing wrong? What am I doing wrong? I'm like, I guess I just need to keep working harder and harder and harder. And I. I mean, people on my mission were like, oh, we thought you were going to be like, this snooty, full of yourself dude who didn't want to follow the rules. And some of the missionaries said, like, oh, like, they thought they would be the one to show Elder Archuleta how to get in line and be obedient. They didn't realize that I was one of the most obsessed with doing every, you know, the, the religion and being a missionary than anyone as anyone could be. And, like, my companion. And, like, we were made as the examples. Like, I went and saw one of my mission leaders and he was just like, you guys were like, we thought of you guys as the exemplar re, like, companions of what obedience on the mission was supposed to look like. And I let him. I was like, you know, And I think it had a lot to do with scrupulosity.

Facebook Live: Plan B

The Moment I Confessed to My Mission President

John Dehlin [00:45:31] Talk about. Talk about the interview you had with your mission president where you were going to confess, because that was a pretty powerful part of the book.

David Archuleta [00:45:38] Yeah. I spoke to one of my mission leaders, and that was the first time I. I mean, really, like, turning off, like, a light switch because my brain wouldn't remember why I felt so. Like, looking back at it now, I can see it. But at the time when I was on my mission, I would feel this weight. I'd feel this overwhelming feeling, anxiety, and this guilt, because I was like, I have these feelings, but I would only be aware of that in moments. So I'd get this. I'm like, why do I feel so anxious? Or why do I feel so sad right now? Or so guilty? And I would. So there was a point where I'm like, you know what? It came. I was like, I feel guilty. I have these feelings. I need to write this down because I'm going to forget that I am attracted to guys. So there's this time when I was like, what am I feeling? What is this weight on my chest? And it's like, I just like, you know what? Get my journal out, and I'm just going to write whatever comes to mind. And so I did. And I looked back, and I was like. I was appalled because I had just written down and admitted to myself that I was attracted to men on your mission. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] Yeah.

David Archuleta [00:47:05] And I'd never written that. Like, I never, like, been honest with myself in that way. But once I wrote it down and I put my journal away, I was like, oh, what was I. What was I so upset about? Like, I couldn't remember. And so there was another moment where I had, like, this breakdown, and I was like, I need to go speak. I need to go speak to a mission leader. And to. So I went. And so. And this mission leader was. And I talk about it in the book. But I was. I said, I. I was like, I need to meet with you. I need to talk to you about something. And when we got there, he says, so, what did you want to talk about? And I said, I don't remember. I was like, but I wrote it down, and I brought it. Do you mind if I read it to you? Because I honestly would. I didn't remember what it was. My brain had gotten really good at compartmentalizing. Compartmentalizing, yes. And so I looked down, I opened it up, and I started reading. I was like, oh, my gosh. I'm like, this is what I came here to talk about. But, you know, I was just reading because I didn't. I myself didn't even know what I had. I didn't remember what I had written down.

John Dehlin [00:48:15] That's wild.

David Archuleta [00:48:16] And, but I knew I needed to get it out because otherwise it was like, felt like I was eating, eating me within. And I, I read it to him and I felt really ashamed. But I also felt relieved because I was like, I finally, I think this was the missing thing that I needed to do in the repentance process was confess and, and this in my missionary. He just said like, you know what this could be? He said, this could be the most important day of your life. But he said, you're doing a great job, you're a great missionary. Just keep up what you're doing. And that was it. He didn't give me any counsel. He didn't say, we'll try this or you need to worry about this.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] You were worried you might get sent home, right?

David Archuleta [00:49:00] I, I thought I was going to go home.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Archuleta [00:49:04] Because I didn't, I thought that admitting that you are, could be gay was one of the worst things that you could do. And, and there have been people who've been sent home for admitting how their feelings, depending on who their leaders are. You know, you, you get like, if you get the luck of the draw where you have an understanding leader. Not everyone gets the same treatment though. So it's, it's. But you know, my mission leader that I had was great and I, that's, I felt so much more relieved. I kind of just looked at it as well, if I finish, see through with my mission and get married. Because that's what I was told too. It's like, if you get married, you will be blessed. So I was just like, I need to just finish my mission, serve a worthy mission. And when I get home, I mean, that's what I was told as well. Like many times at that point. Like I, it's like get married, you know, get to a woman. To a woman, gotta do to a woman.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] Yeah.

David Archuleta [00:50:10] And I tried that several times.

John Dehlin [00:50:11] And the church, for the record, the church for decades and decades and decades counseled their gay members to marry women, go on missions, marry women, have kids, and your gayness will go away. And it led to generations of disastrous marriages and wrecked families. Really quickly. This will probably be the episode where per minute you speak least about American Idol of any of anyone who interviews you. But really quickly, as you experienced success with American Idol and as you were thinking about a mission, and even during and after your mission, talk about the relationship you developed with Elder Ballard, who was one of the top ranking Mormon apostles, talk about how the church wanted to work with you. So that Your celebrity, like the Osmonds, could help advance the causes and the goals of the church. Start from wherever you want, because that relationship becomes very significant in the last quarter of the book, I think, is your relationship with Elder Ballard. So talk about how that develops, whether you felt like the church was using you, whether you enjoyed, you know, collaborating with church leaders during your celebrity moments. Early on,

American Idol: The Case for Coaching

David Archuleta [00:51:31] I wasn't expecting the church to want to get as involved in my life as they did, but I was also happy to do it because, you know, I believed it. So I just thought, oh, like, this must be what God wanted. Like, okay, I. I wasn't planning to be on this show and get as far as I did, and I wasn't expecting to suddenly be asked to, you know, start speaking to youth firesides and conferences and devotionals and in churches. And so I just kind of. I just kind of followed along. You know, I kept getting asked. So I just thought, well, you know, as a. As a member of the church, you're taught to serve and to volunteer, and when you're asked. When you're asked to serve and help lift up other people in their testimonies, that you do it. And so I just. That's just what I did. I just followed and I. I did enjoy it. I felt like I felt a purpose in doing it. I felt like I was living my life not for myself. And. And I thought that's. That's what you're. That's just what you're supposed to do. And I liked knowing what I was supposed to do and then following it. That's something I got good at from both my dad and the church.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Right?

David Archuleta [00:52:55] And I think I got really good at not thinking about what I wanted and disregarding that, even where it's like, I don't know what I think. You know, it doesn't matter what I think. It doesn't matter what I want. It doesn't matter what I feel, right? And because I was told, I was taught that my intuition and my feelings were deceptive, whether that was what my dad taught me. Say. Because if I said. If I express my opinion or said something I wanted to do, my dad would be like, no, you don't get it. Like, you don't understand. Like. And I think just constantly discredited. And so I.

Guest [00:53:33] And.

David Archuleta [00:53:33] And then also with my feelings for guys, I just thought, oh, if. All the more. For me, that was evidence. I'm like, my dad's right. I can't trust myself. My.

Speaker D [00:53:44] My.

David Archuleta [00:53:44] What I think, what I feel is. Is Gonna deceive me. And look at, look at the fact that I'm attracted to men. That's only evidence of what my dad's telling me is how I took it. So I just thought, you know, okay, I just have to, I have to do what I don't feel like doing and what I don't want to. And, But I did, I did like to do what I was doing for the church because, again, I thought it was like a calling from God, and that's how I took it. So I just, I did it. And, but the one, but I, the

John Dehlin [00:54:18] one exception is, like, most of us, you know, like, if any of us have been to, like, church headquarters, like church employees, they're literally told, if you're in a, if you're in an elevator shaft with one of the apostles, don't talk to them. You know, you're not, they're not to be approached. If they approach you, that's one thing. But most of us never get audience with an apostle and are discouraged from even trying to talk to them. And that's a very different experience than what you got, obviously.

David Archuleta [00:54:47] Yeah, I mean, they, even before my mission, like American Idol, like President Thomas S. Monson brought me over and would want to say hi to me and just check in on me and talk. And I thought that was a huge honor. Like, we were taught that the prophet is the greatest person on earth. You know, Jesus isn't here. Joseph Smith isn't here anymore. It's the prophet. Like, there's no greater person to be around than the person who is the direct channel to God, to the earth. And so I, I always took that very seriously. I, I. But they would, they would ask me to come sing at this devotional and ask me to come. I, I do all sorts of stuff, and if I had the time, I, I was like, okay, like, yeah, that's what I'm. That's what I'm supposed to do. You know, I'm supposed to serve. And when I'm called by a leader to, to do something, and you just, you're supposed to find a way to do it. And when I got back from my mission, it was even more so. Like, I would get apostles calling me and saying, would you come on this visit with me and would you come to this, or. And I was just like, whoa. Like, I guess for me, I was like, okay, this must be a sign that I'm doing what I'm supposed, what I'm doing. Like, I'm doing it right. And I kind of always hoped that I'm like, well, if I'm obedient enough, that God's servants are asking me to help them, it must be God's way of showing that he is okay with me and maybe there is hope for me that I can be healed. And I think you get so desperate that because you're so afraid, you. You get to the point where you're so afraid of yourself and so afraid of what you might become if you make one wrong move. You think one wrong move can end it all for you. And so you're obsessively trying to just be better and do more and serve harder, increase your faith even more with the hopes that you will be saved.

John Dehlin [00:57:02] Mormons are taught that these apostles work for free. Those of us kind of on the inside know that they're paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and that when any of them die, Monson Packer, any of them, they're worth millions of dollars, meaning that they get all sorts of special favors and assets and even property transfers while they're serving as Mormon apostles. And we also know now that the Mormon Church is worth over $300 billion. When you're serving at the request of these Mormon apostles, who are paid compensated very, very well. It almost reminds me of Scientology with John Travolta or Tom Cruise. How often do they offer to compensate you for your performances or for your celebrity in the, in the PR opportunities or service opportunities that they ask you to. To accompany them for? Does that make sense? How often were you compensated or not for your. For your labor, knowing how well they were compensated?

David Archuleta [00:58:09] Well, I mean, I, I didn't know they were compensated, actually. Yeah, I just thought they were. I thought that the church took care of whatever needs they had. So if they needed a car, it's like, well, if they're not working, how are they going to get the car? So, yeah, they could. I, I assumed that they all already had their homes because we were always taught that God blessed these men to have accomplished successful lives so that they could then walk away from it all and serve God for the rest of their lives as an apostle.

Mormons: How Much Money Was Paid for Service Activities?

John Dehlin [00:58:43] So now they're. They're super well compensated. But did they ever. How much did they offer to compensate you for your good publicity or service activities with. With members?

David Archuleta [00:58:57] I, I mean, it was. I mean, it was just service. So I wasn't compensated. And I mean, I did. I didn't expect to be compensated for doing the Lord's work. This is how I looked at it. So I. There were. I mean, Elder Ballard would try to look out for me and be like, you're doing so much and so many members. Because it wasn't just the apostles asking me to do. It was like anywhere I went, there were bishops, there were young men and young women's leaders, relief society presidents, stake presidents, area authorities, everyone. Like, if they knew I was coming into town, they'd usually reach out and ask if I would do stuff. And it just got to a point where I was getting asked to do so much, I just had to say no because I realized people are going to keep asking. And it got to a certain point where other Ballard's like, hey, if there's certain members who are asking you to do stuff, you should get compensated because you're doing way too much. If anything, I appreciated it because he was looking out for me and saying, you need to stop just accepting every single service opportunity because he said, the members will wear you out. And he's like, believe me, he's like, as an apostle, I know how often people will ask you to do stuff. And don't ex and just assume like, well, you're doing God's work, so you, how could you turn this down? So if, if Elder Ballard knew that there was a wealthy member asking me to do something, then he'd say, like, make sure that you get compensated because this is your livelihood. And that wasn't until after my mission that he finally. And that I was getting asked to do so much. And I, and I happily did it because I thought that I was doing the most important work in the world. I thought what I was doing for the church was more important than my career. I thought my career was just a way to. It was. If anything, I looked at it because I didn't know if I really wanted to be like famous and this pop star. But I just kind of looked at it as, well, God put me here and so he probably put me here so that I could do all this stuff for the church, is how I looked at it. So, yeah, but you know, I, I did, I sang glorious. I mean, I did all those fire.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] It was interesting with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir once, like a special, special guest Christmas kind of performance. Yeah, yeah.

David Archuleta [01:01:31] And they, they, I mean, they already pay the artists that comes, but it's not as much as you would normally get paid because they usually say, hey, this is like a donation. Because the church isn't really supposed to pay its artists. It's like a, it's a, it's like a non profit organization thing and stuff. So there it Was kind of looked at, well, this is like a gift. And it was usually would come from a donor from one of the members of the church, would donate the money that is given to the singers. Most of them aren't members. Like, I was. These are just people who are getting hired to. For a gig.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] Yeah.

David Archuleta [01:02:08] For me it was very different. I was like, no, this is special. My. My record label didn't want me to sing with. With the choir. They're like, really? Like, they're like, you're a teenage. We're trying. You're a teenage pop star. You're supposed to be. And I was like, this means too much to me. Like, I was like, no, this has been a dream of mine to sing with the choir. So I, I had to beg them. I was like, please. Like, I know I have a contract and like, this doesn't cut it, but I want to do this. And so I was very, very enveloped in that world. Like, it was, it was my world and I was happy to do a lot of it. I think that's what made it a lot harder when I, I did so much willfully and happily that I just figured, like, these men know me. Like, I've done so much for them. I figured that when I'm going through a hard time, they will listen. And I think the most shocking part about it was I trusted them. Like, I. I really, like, devoted my life to them and to their cause. The cause. I thought we were all on the same team. So when I just thought, well, surely if they, like, I would had received this revelation, I felt from. From what I believed was God at the time, like, oh, I've been trying to pray for God to change me. And I just got an answer where God said, when I almost gave up, you know, I almost gave up my life. I was willing to give my life. That's how far I was willing to take it, you know, as other members have.

Mormons on Same Sex Marriage Exclusion Policy

John Dehlin [01:03:41] What year was that about when you, you reached the point of feeling suicidal? Was that after you dated women? After your mission? Okay, okay, so let's go back. So you finish your mission, and it seems like within a couple years of your mission, the Mormon church, same sex marriage would have been legalized in 2015, but then the church would have come out with that horrible November 2015 exclusion policy where same sex marriage became grounds for mandatory excommunication, which put same sex marriage worse than pedophilia or rape. Because pedophilia and rape have never been mandatory excommunicationable offenses. But same sex marriage Became that. And then there was the declaration that children of same sex married Mormons couldn't even join the church until they were 18 and until after they denounced their parents marriage. What was the November 2015 policy like for you? I guess you weren't publicly out yet, is that right?

David Archuleta [01:04:47] No. And I, I came out to my mom and to a couple of my sisters when I got back from my mission. I told them, I, I told them flat out. At that time I was like, I'm gay. But I, but I said, but I, but I believe God, you know, with faith that God will help me overcome this. I looked at it as something I needed to overcome. So, you know, I was at a place where it's like you're in the bubble and you just don't think you're supposed to question what the leaders do. And if you do, then that's, that's a sign of your lack of faith, which I didn't want to have. Like that was too scary of a thought to lack faith. So when that policy came out, I just kind of, I was confused by it. It didn't make sense to me. But I also, when you grow up being taught confusing things and you're told some things are going to seem confusing, but that's where you really need to exercise your faith and put your trust in the Lord and lean not upon thy thine own understanding. And so I kind of just figured, okay, I don't understand this, but if it's coming from the apostles, it must be, it must be right, and it must be what God wants. And I don't see the full picture here is how I took it. You know, you kind of learn how to not be in touch with your intuition and with your gut and with your feelings and with your reasoning. You're kind of taught too. And what's interesting is I was kind of, I got that from the church. And I also learned that for the sake of the relationship between my dad and me, because my dad did not want me to be rational. And there were times where even, you know, my dad would say something didn't happen. He would. I learned later eventually that it was gaslighting, where we would have an explosive argument. And then the next day when I would try to discuss it, he would be like, what are you talking about? He's like, that didn't happen. And I got to a point where I was like, oh, I must be crazy then, because I could have swore that that happened. I could have swore that we were fighting and that you were shouting and Stuff, But I must be crazy, you know, I must be an idiot. So you just kind of, like, learn to not trust yourself. And I think when they're authority figures that want you to be moldable, like my dad, or like authority figures in a religion or in politics, government, I feel like a lot of times, you know, they want for you to be moldable. They have to have you not trust yourself so that they trust you. Trust them.

John Dehlin [01:07:39] Wow.

David Archuleta [01:07:40] And put all your trust in them. And I. I got really good at doing that. And some of the people I worked with, my management, were really upset about that policy in 2015, and I just tried to dismiss it. And I was just like, there's got to be some sense in this. And I looked up my. Because they were just like, this is not okay. And I was like, well, but I don't. We don't understand God's ways. As I was just repeating the rhetoric that I. I was told, like, you and I. I think it's like, you have to have that way of thinking where you. In order to make it work for you or to stay sane in that environment without going like, oh, my God, this is too confusing. If you. But I. I remember.

John Dehlin [01:08:28] I remember watching you, and I remember thinking about, like, Marie Osmond, like, she's got queer children. Like, she presents as an LGBT ally, you know, or, you know, I remember thinking about Steve Young or others. I'm like, how do Mormon celebrities that seem to be progressive, thoughtful, kind, compassionate people not be more bothered by some of these things the church is doing? And you just answered it. You just. You get taught to be compliant, to compartmentalize, and to not trust your own thoughts and feelings and just obey. Put your head down and obey the brethren. It sounds like that's how you made it through the November 2015 policy.

David Archuleta [01:09:12] Yeah, and then there was. There were, you know, discussions and even, like, then Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons was trying to bring awareness to the high suicide rates with the youth.

John Dehlin [01:09:27] Do you remember the movie that I did with Tyler Glenn and Dan Reynolds, the HBO Believer movie that came out 2015, 2016. Do you remember that at all?

David Archuleta [01:09:37] Wait, you were in that?

John Dehlin [01:09:39] Yeah, they featured my research in that documentary. Wow.

David Archuleta [01:09:44] You know, I think it's hard for me.

John Dehlin [01:09:47] My PhD dissertation was on the LGBT Mormon experience. So, yeah, Dan reached out, and I was one of the first people he talked to as that movie was being developed, and then they interviewed me for it. But my research was all about conversion therapy, mixed orientation marriages, celibacy, and how the church's policy towards LGBT people was disastrous.

Guest [01:10:09] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:10:10] Yeah.

David Archuleta [01:10:10] You know, I, I, I guess I don't recall that because the, you know, the first time I really became aware of you was actually after I came out and my dad sent me an episode of your podcast, and it was one where you were talking to Gerardo. And my dad said, hey, this young man seems to have had a lot of similarities with you. He's also Hispanic, he was a missionary, and he came out as gay. And he's like, I think you should listen to this. And I was like, And I think it's like I had, I, I wasn't familiar with the podcast. And I was like, oh, this is really interesting that they, But I didn't, you know, I had already seen Believer. I just didn't realize it was you.

John Dehlin [01:10:57] Yeah.

David Archuleta [01:10:58] Also, but, and, and that I had a hard time watching that documentary because my tour manager insisted that I watch it. And it was during, like, what. When Dan was trying to do it. And I, I didn't know how to feel because I, Dan, I, I'd been friends with since like 2011.

John Dehlin [01:11:17] Oh, really?

David Archuleta [01:11:18] And, yeah, we met at church. This was before my mission, and we were both going to the Hollywood ward in Los Angeles. And so I was, yeah, it was kind of. So we became friends. And then when I got back from my mission, you know, he had blown up with Imagine Dragons and they had gotten signed and they had Radioactive. And then he started doing his LGBT stuff and I was just like, I thought, like, wait, why are you. Like, we're not supposed to talk about, like, we're not, you know, that, that's. And my friend was, my tour manager was like, did you see his documentary? Like, you need to watch it. I really think you should. And I was, I was really uncomfortable. I was like, I can't watch that because it might awaken something in me that I'm not supposed to touch.

"I watched 'The Face of God'

John Dehlin [01:12:09] Yeah.

David Archuleta [01:12:09] With a 30 foot pole. Like, I can't enter it. Like, I was always taught to be afraid and stay away from that and protect yourself from it because it might taint your, your way you're supposed to look at things. And so I was very scared. But I did watch it. But I, it was, it was a hard watch for me at the time. I, I'm. Because, But I also saw, I was like, I admired what he was doing, but it also was very conflicting. It was very conflicting because I just was like, how do I have compassion and understand where he's coming from, but also have to support and sustain what my leaders totally tell me? I'm supposed to think of this. It was very confusing.

Neon Trees

John Dehlin [01:12:50] And right around that time, Tyler Glenn was on Rolling Stone magazine, but then lead singer for Neon Trees. And then later he comes out. Comes out with his album called Excommunication. And he's pretty critical of the church. He comes on Mormon Stories. He partners up with Dan for this Believer documentary. And I remember at that point, a lot of us were watching you just going, huh, David hasn't gotten married yet. Huh? Is there. You know, I remember talking to Tyler, like, is there a chance that David might be. You know, you don't want to speculate. It's rude to speculate. But I remember talking to Tyler at that point, just wondering, how's David doing? Oh, my God. We were wondering about you. Even if you didn't know we existed, you were friends with Tyler at that point, right? At least, like.

David Archuleta [01:13:37] No.

John Dehlin [01:13:37] Informally. No. Okay.

David Archuleta [01:13:39] Oh, I'd met him.

John Dehlin [01:13:40] Okay.

Guest [01:13:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:13:44] We were wondering.

David Archuleta [01:13:45] I knew Ellen.

John Dehlin [01:13:46] Oh, Ellen, his drummer?

David Archuleta [01:13:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:48] Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Because she was faithful at the time.

David Archuleta [01:13:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] Yeah.

David Archuleta [01:13:55] So, yeah, she. Yeah. Now she's on her whole journey and, like, she's come out.

Guest [01:14:04] Yeah.

David Archuleta [01:14:04] It's. Yeah. I'm so happy for her because it's hard. It's a hard place to. When you're taught to even just deny yourself, you know, you're.

John Dehlin [01:14:15] It's Elaine. It's Elaine. Sorry. It's Elaine.

David Archuleta [01:14:17] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:14:18] Elaine Bradley.

David Archuleta [01:14:19] Elaine Bradley. Elaine Bradley.

John Dehlin [01:14:20] No, it's good.

David Archuleta [01:14:21] Why did I say Ellen?

John Dehlin [01:14:22] I knew it wasn't quite Ellen, but it's Elaine Bradley. But keep going.

David Archuleta [01:14:25] Elaine. I love Elaine. Yeah, she's always been so great, like, even before I came out and then when I came out, like, she's always been someone that I felt seen with. I felt seen by it in every situation, you know? And so I'm just so happy for her with where she is. And it's. And it's not easy, though. It's. It's hard because a lot of people think you. Why are you giving up everything that you worked for and everything that you once stood for? And it's just hard. It's hard to explain to people. Like, you know, I think what was hard for me, though, like, thinking that, oh, it's when. It's when I. When I finally came to accept that, hey, maybe I'm not evil if I'm gay or if I'm bisexual, because I didn't have. I. It's not like I disliked the women I was dating. And I. You know, I'd spoken to my friend Charlie Bird about it where. Because he was one of the first people that I felt okay to talk to about coming out. And because you're afraid, you're afraid of, like, what's safe territory. Like, anything that challenges my beliefs, I need to stay away from. So Charlie was a safe. Because he was still a member of the church, but gave. So he was someone I felt it's okay to listen to what he has to say. Everything else is scary and dangerous. Um, but he was telling me, he's like, oh. He's like, oh, like, I've never enjoyed kissing girls. It's like always a weird thing. It felt so gross. I was like, really? I was like, I enjoyed dating my girlfriends, but what was hard and why I felt so guilty and why I couldn't see through with, like, marrying them is because I thought I had to get rid of my feelings for guys. It wasn't that I wasn't attracted to them, but I just tended to be more attracted to guys without even trying and without even wanting it. It was just there. And I was just like, oh, my gosh. But anyway, like, I think the. The moment of where I just really. It all fell apart for me was I was like, these are well meaning people. If they understand that God actually doesn't hate when someone chooses to be gay. And if anything, he seems to. He keeps designing us because there's a joy that we are supposed to experience as we are, even if other people don't understand why God continues creating gay and queer people, the LGBT plus community, you know, it's like. And I thought, well, if I explain that to the church, like Elder Ballard, he. He knows me. Like, we have that distrust that we've had for over a decade now.

Elder Ballard: I'm Not Gay

John Dehlin [01:17:13] And really quick. Did you become suicidal before reaching out to Elder Ballard and coming out to Elder Ballard?

David Archuleta [01:17:21] I had come out. You know what, After I watched Believer, I was like, you know what? I might. I might be gay, like, and just straight up be gay, like attracted to men or something. And I told Elder Ballard at that time, I was like, you know, I think I might be gay. And he got really uncomfortable with it. He was. And that's when he first told me it wasn't right. When Believer came out, I. I watched it sometime later on, and he. That's when he first told me. He's like, well, David, he's like, I don't know what to tell you because. And he said, we've gone as brethren. We've gone as the Quorum of the twelve to the temple to pray about this, and we didn't get any answers about it. And he says, what we do have is the family proclamation, and we have the law of chastity, but that's all we have. He's like, God hasn't given us any further light and knowledge on this subject, even though we've gone and prayed about it as a quorum. And I thought, wow, like, he's been really open, very honest, and very vulnerable with me. And I was just like, by the

John Dehlin [01:18:35] way, the proclamation of the family was just a legal brief that was developed for legal reasons that then ended up getting adopted. It was never really a revelation to begin with. Just. I just thought you might want to know that, because even that's not really revelation, but keep. Please keep going. I just had to throw that in.

Speaker D [01:18:53] Right?

John Dehlin [01:18:53] Yeah.

David Archuleta [01:18:54] Right. I. So Ike was kind of like, well, it's interesting because it. The way you go about talking about this topic, you talk about it as if you already received answers and direct revelation from God. And in my. As I can. Then years later, when I, like, I. I told him again, I was like, hey, remember how I told you that I thought I might be gay? And he's like, yes. He's like, you're not gay.

John Dehlin [01:19:24] He said that to you? He said that?

David Archuleta [01:19:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:26] Elder Ballard said that to you?

David Archuleta [01:19:28] Yeah. He said, yeah, you're. You're not gay. And I said, you're right. I said, I think I'm bisexual.

John Dehlin [01:19:36] He's like 90. He's like 90 years old at this point. Right?

David Archuleta [01:19:40] He was probably, like, 88. Yeah, yeah, 89 this. And I was engaged. I was engaged at this time.

John Dehlin [01:19:48] To a woman. To a woman.

David Archuleta [01:19:50] To a woman. Woman, yeah. And I said, but I'm trying really hard to still make it work with this girl. I really love her. She's really wonderful. And he just. He got so uncomfortable, though, and he's like, you know, I don't know. He's like, let me find someone else to talk to you about this. And I was like, I'm not looking for someone to explain this to me. I'm like, I just want you to listen to what I'm going through right now. And so he listened to me. And then later on is when I officially just came to terms and said, I'm going to start dating guys.

Elder Ballard's Sexual Questions

John Dehlin [01:20:27] On page 259, there's a point where he asks you flat out if you're having sex, and then you start talking. Do you want to tell about what it was like to have? Ballard just seemed to be Only concerned about that and then how that conversation evolved into a conversation about marriage and adoption and in vitro fertilization, and also throwing the part about where he asks you if you were molested, which is such a horrible trope talk. If you don't mind, spend some time on that story, because that's pretty powerful.

David Archuleta [01:20:58] I mean, I got asked by a lot of people if I had been molested, because that was. That was a belief. Like, yeah, oh, if you're a. If you're gay, it's because you're a bad person. Or if you're gay and you didn't choose to, it's because you got molested, is what the, like, the old way of thinking was. And so, you know, my mom had asked me if I had been molested, and then Elder Ballard had asked, and all these other people, like, even, like, my bar, like, people who aren't Mormon, think the same thing, you know, oh, you must have been molested as a kid. And so I told him, like, no, like, I hadn't been molested, if anything. Like, I know other people who have been molested, and they're still straight. So, you know, if. If that really applied. Like, you know, I mean, and I wasn't molested, so it's. It doesn't really. But for them, it was confusing. It's like, then how could someone like you end up being gay? You know, because I was doing everything else.

John Dehlin [01:22:03] Was it like Ballard had not really thought about it that much and hadn't really read a book or learned anything.

David Archuleta [01:22:09] I think they did. What? You know, it starts from the top down, where it's like, you just push it out of sight, out of mind, and you compartmentalize and you're in denial. I think you're just like. You just try not to think about it. And I mentioned that in my book where it's like. I think that's how they've dealt with a lot of issues. It's like, well, if we pretend it's not there and we never address it, then we don't have to be held accountable for it because we didn't know.

John Dehlin [01:22:34] Yeah, weirdly, Ballard Ballard was compartmentalizing. Ballard was. Mormon apostles, like Elder Ballard were probably taught to compartmentalize, just like they taught you to compartmentalize. So in some sense, it's the blind leading the blind. Like, I had published probably 13 scientific journal articles about the LGBT Mormon experience by, like, 2016, believer had come out. There was all sorts of research contradicting and condemning conversion therapy, celibacy, mixed orientation, marriages, and it just sounds like the Quorum of the twelve Apostles in the First Presidency of the Mormon Church, just don't read books, don't read articles, don't learn stuff, and remain in a bubble of ignorance while telling 17 million people how they should live their lives. Incomplete ignorance. I mean, that's what it sounds like. Am I wrong?

David Archuleta [01:23:29] Well, that's what I learned when I was talking to Elder Ballard and trying to bring points, like, I felt like they were valid points. And I was like, if. Like, I was still trying to find a way to stay in the church, because I thought that was the whole reason of living. Like, I genuinely thought, if I don't have this, I don't have anything else to live for, you know, which is why I also almost took my life because of it. So when I was saying, I'm like, you know what? I. I feel like I need to find a way to. And I was like, you know what?

John Dehlin [01:23:59] There.

David Archuleta [01:24:00] There are places where it's like, you said that it needs to be this way, or, like, if someone's gay, they have to be excommunicated or whatever. But I'm like, you know what? You know what? If you just give them what they would get if they weren't in this church anyway, which is a civil marriage, like, why. Why is it expected of us to be alone? Like, when it's not, you know, you go to. I was. I was going to the temple several times. Like, I really was scrupulous. Like, I. I was obsessed with it, and my whole identity was in it. It was just like, I was. I was going to the temple all the time. So it's like, you hear all. Every time you go there, it's like, it's not good for man to be alone. And I was like, but yet it's expected for me to be alone if it's a man that I fall in love with. And why is that the case? Like, if it's too cons, if it's two consenting adults and they're not hurting anybody, and it's, you know, a mutual agreement and partnership where you just want to lift each other up. Like, you know, why is it better for them to leave and get excommunicated or pushed out and find somewhere else to belong if this is where God's fold is supposed to be? And I was like, why are we leaving? You know, God, Jesus taught to leave the 99 and go after the 1. But I'm like, you keep letting this one go time and time again. Like, there's like, The LGBT community is that one sheep that you're letting go all the time. And a lot of them are desperately wanting to stay because this is where their families are, their friends. It's all they know. And it seems like you want them to be pushed out, and that's not fair.

John Dehlin [01:25:38] That and miserable and depression and miserable and depressed and lonely and broken. Because why wouldn't the church, like my research demonstrated that same sex married Mormons had much less depression, much less anxiety, higher quality of life, less internalized homophobia, like all the good things, and way less of the bad things if you just let them get married. So, yeah, don't let them have a temple marriage. But why fight civil marriage? And yet the church not only fought civil marriage, which is the healthiest outcome, based on my data for LGBT Mormons, but they would excommunicate you if you made the healthiest choice, which was to actually have a loving, devoted, committed, hope, you know, sometimes monogamous relationship. It's like the church wanted its gay and lesbian ex Mormons to have sad, miserable, terrible lives, right?

David Archuleta [01:26:37] They did. Yeah, they did. Because it would, it would be. What is it called? That positive.

John Dehlin [01:26:44] It'd be, it'd be the cautionary tale. As long as gay and lesbian ex Mormons were depressed, miserable, and suicidal, the church could always point to them and say, see what happens when you become gay or lesbian, you, you become a drug addict and, and you die. Right?

Guest [01:27:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:01] Yeah. I don't mean to be talking.

David Archuleta [01:27:03] It reinforces their beliefs, which are misguided beliefs.

John Dehlin [01:27:08] Yeah.

David Archuleta [01:27:09] And that's what I was trying. I was just. Elder Ballard was my friend. He was like my grandpa. So I was just like, you know what? He just needs to be given more information. And that's what's missing here, because he's an understanding, he's a loving, compassionate man. So I just figured, like, if I give him more information and more insight, he's going to understand and realize something needs to be done here. And there was a moment where he did, but he always got too scared. And I, I. What happens, he would go to Dallin H. Oaks and talk and get the homophobic take on things and say, that can't be true. We can't accept that. And I feel like he would dismiss Elder Ballard's compassion and be probably encouraged that what I was saying was dangerous because it challenged everything that Dallin H. Oaks has worked for in his life. He spent decades, what he would call defending religious freedom and defending marriage when it was really attacking and discriminating against the LGBTQ community. And I don't think he has. I think it would be humiliating for him to have to admit that everything that he spent so much of his life working on is incorrect and misinformed.

Elder Ballard on Dallin H. Oaks

Elder Ballard on the November 2015 Suicide Policy

John Dehlin [01:28:29] Tell the audience what he said about the November 2015 policy to you,

David Archuleta [01:28:35] Elder Ballard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. President Ballard told me, which is in the book.

John Dehlin [01:28:43] It's on page 245.

David Archuleta [01:28:45] Yeah, 245. He. Because I was talking to him where I. I had come out, and I said, well, God told me what I understood is God. Because I had people saying, like, well, an angel of light. Satan appears as an angel light. And it was probably that. That you think is God. And I was like, no, I'm pretty sure that feeling this newfound confidence and love in yourself and, like, light. I was like, I'm. If. If it's God, like, if. If I ever thought God was in my life ever, I'm like, it was that moment, like, as sure as anything else. So. But whatever I was saying, like, God said, I can make. Like, it's okay to make mistakes. I'm like, if I make mistakes, then that's what the gospel is supposed to be there for anyway. It's to help you heal and become clean from any mistakes you would make. And he said, well, of course we. You're supposed to make mistakes. We all make mistakes. It's like, even the apostles and the prophet make mistakes. And that's when he said. He said, you know, we thought the 2015 policy was something that was. That was the right thing to do. And we learned that clearly it was a mistake. He's like, but we didn't realize that until after we already, you know, tried it. But clearly he's. Yeah, he said, clearly it was a mistake. And so he's like, but you're supposed to make mistakes. That's how you grow and learn. So I was like, yeah. I'm like, well, I knew that. I just didn't know that you were going to be okay with. I didn't think the church was going to be okay with what I'm. But I was like, you know, I'm following what I feel is God.

John Dehlin [01:30:19] Because when they. When they reversed the November 2015 policy in either 2018 or 2019, they did not tell the world that they had made a mistake. All they said was, we got more revelation. In other words, God did it in 2015, and now God's undoing it in 2019. But God did both. They. They do not admit mistakes. Even though he admitted that privately to you?

David Archuleta [01:30:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:48] Did you notice that at the time that they didn't actually take accountability because people lost their lives over that decision? I mean, people died over the 2015, November 2015 policy.

David Archuleta [01:31:03] Yeah. And I think what was hard for, you know, I trusted the church. You know, I believed it when it released these articles about the like, because when they were saying, like, the, you know, the high suicide rates in Utah, and there were articles that were being written correlating it with the elevation, saying, well, no, it's not, it's not, it's not that. It's, it's the elevation. And I foolishly believed that as well. I was like, oh, it must be right, because I, you just, when you put all your trust into, into an organization or into something and it's, and so you just, like, you trust it. So it's like, I, it must be true, because why would they lie to me? Why would they steer me astray? They told me that they never would. You know, this is God's truth. You know, I, I, so I believed it. I believed that elevation was what was affecting the higher suicide rates in Utah. And they were showing, like, well, look, Alaska and Montana as well. So it doesn't have to do with faith. It doesn't have to do with the religious culture. And I realize now that, you know what? It wasn't the elevation that got me to almost end my life in Tennessee. It was the, the belief system and the, the, the narrative that you're being taught. But I feel like you're being incorrectly taught. But I believed it to the point where I almost, you know, took, I almost took my life. And many have. Many have. And that's when it was for me. It was the final straw and where I said, you know what? I, I have to leave. Because I'm like, why would I be somewhere where they don't want people like me? And, oh, they might be okay with me because I'm a notable figure within the church and I'm a public figure. But I was like, why would I want to be somewhere where it's like, oh, well, because you're popular. It's. You can, it's okay for you to be gay, but everyone else is going to get punished. And if they take their lives, we're not going to, we're just going to pretend it's not even happening so that we don't have to be held accountable. And I was just like, how can I stay somewhere like that?

John Dehlin [01:33:22] Do you have a, do you have a copy of your book with you? I was going to have you read just two brief paragraphs? I can read it if you don't have it with you.

David Archuleta [01:33:30] I don't have it.

John Dehlin [01:33:31] Okay. Do you mind if I read your words?

David Archuleta [01:33:33] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:33:34] You Write on page 246. I was surprised by what Elder Ballard seemed to be admitting to me. That they didn't actually know what God wanted or not. They were making guesses, but they were going to tell everyone the message was from God, so they would follow along. So they would just follow along without questioning them. I'd always followed the apostles because I, like all faithful Latter Day Saints, believed their messages came directly from God. But that wasn't true. Latter Day Saints need to know that. And then you write. The conversation with Elder Ballard was a major wizard of Oz moment for me. A quote, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Reveal. That's pretty direct and bold.

Elder Oaks on Same-Sex Marriage

David Archuleta [01:34:26] Well, I just felt like if they're making decisions that are influencing people's lives as much like. And that I almost gave up my life for something that they didn't even know and they admitted to not even knowing. I just, for me, I was like, why? I don't know. It's like, it shocks me. It's a pri. It, it really shocks me that they're still letting people, you know, come to that conclusion. They have not released any statement, and I think as long as Dallin H. Oaks is in power, I think once he passes away, I think it'll be a morally. But, you know, he, he dead truly dedicated his life's work to fighting against gay marriage.

John Dehlin [01:35:18] So he was president of BYU when BYU did electroshock therapy for, for gay BYU students. Elder Oaks was the president of BYU who signed the IRB approving electroshock therapy for gay students at byu. I'm sure you knew that. You know that.

David Archuleta [01:35:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:35] Yeah.

Elder Ballard on Getting Ghosted

David Archuleta [01:36:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:54] Do you want to talk about that?

David Archuleta [01:36:57] Yeah. I took a really, I took it very personally because I understood that we had become very close. And I wasn't, I wasn't trying to, like, I was just trying to be a friend. I was trying to have an honest conversation with my friend that I, I trusted in, you know, and confided in. And so to see how scared he was of me, I knew came from. I knew came from other people. And that's why I just, like, you know, there's some other people who are too influential, influential to him that he's going to go with their word over mine. And it just was unfortunate that it was. Stay away from David, like, you know, because what he's saying is probably going to corrupt you or something. I don't. And I was just trying to have a honest conversation. And I, and I recite the conversations I had because I wrote, I, I, I kept record of everything we talked about because I did not want to forget those conversations because I was really hopeful that there would be progress made. And I, I realized I needed to back up my, like, my arguments as well. So I, I appreciated that he was honest with me about what he didn't know. He didn't. He asked me, he's like, how many gay people do you think are in the church? And I said, well, a lot. A lot more than would ever admit to you and any of the other leaders, that's for sure.

John Dehlin [01:38:29] Yeah.

David Archuleta [01:38:29] And I told him, like, I, I told him how I was a home teacher in the YSA ward in Nashville and six of my people that I home taught were queer. And I didn't know most of them were queer until I came out. When I came out, like, I. Four of them immediately sent me messages saying, oh, my gosh, like, I didn't know I could talk to someone about this, but I'm gay or I'm a lesbian, or, you know, it just. And I was just like, oh, my God, like, they're everywhere. Like, they're literally everywhere. And. And then I had another friend in, and they told me, you know, what like, they're like, I've been meaning to go to church, but here's the thing. My mom is. My dad is gay, and my mom's a lesbian, and she's. And they're like. I saw them try to make it work. They had a bunch of kids, went to church all the time, and it just. And they said, my parents are so much happier with their partners than they were together. And I don't understand why they can't be in the church when it's like, their world. Like, it's the. My dad wants to be there so bad, and they don't let him be. They don't let him because they think he needs to be punished for who he. He decided to. To love and be in a partnership with. So I. I was telling. I was telling Elder Ballard these stories. I was like, there's. They're everywhere. And I told him about the. The people who would come to. The people who would come up to me at church and tell me, like, quietly, like, I'm like you, or I'm gay, too, or, like. And they're just scared. They're scared to make, you know, for other people to know about them. And it's just like, man, there is a lot of people who are living secretly and hiding and feeling embarrassed. Like, it's just.

John Dehlin [01:40:23] It really surprised me the fact that they have. Have studied so little, know so little, admit behind the scenes that they are just guessing and don't really know what they're doing and that the November 2015 policy was a mistake. The fact that they know all that, have access to information and are sort of choosing to continue in willful ignorance while so many people have died or have had their lives damaged or ruined is unconscionable. And so that's why this book is. So that's why everybody should buy this book. Devout by David Archuleta. I promised I wouldn't keep you more than an hour, so let me just ask you a final question. I want to tell people. There's so much more about Elder Ballard in this book. He goes into great detail. For me, it was one of the most important parts of the book because it really does help people see behind the curtain. So please, everybody, buy this book right now. Let's make it a New York Times bestseller. Let's have it right up there with Jeanette McCurdy's books, and let's have everyone in the world buy copies. Buy it for friends, buy it for family. There's so much more that we're not covering. Let Me ask you one final question, David, just because I promised I'd get you out in a decent time. Usually when you.

A New York Times bestseller

In the Elevator With Gay Mormons

David Archuleta [01:41:45] When you.

John Dehlin [01:41:45] When you lose your faith or come out as gay, there's still a deconstruction of the history of Joseph Smith, of the Book of Mormon, or the theology that you have to do to become healthy. Have you done further deconstruction about things like Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith, polygamy, et cetera, to help you make sense of everything and maybe feel better about your transition out? And also, have you resigned from the church? Were you excommunicated? Is there anything else you want to share about your deconstruction about your Mormon faith and your membership?

David Archuleta [01:42:24] I. I never removed my name from the church. I. I was never excommunicated. My d. You know, my dad was my. He was the only one of my family. Everyone else who has left decided on their. Their own actions to remove their names. But I haven't. I kind of left it as, like, a symbol of, like. I still would like to talk to the leaders. I would like. I feel like this conversation is too important to have. I wanted to. I. I feel like it's wild that

John Dehlin [01:43:01] you get an ex. You know, so many other Mormons, gay Mormons, lesbian Mormons, have been excommunicated. Our own Julia was excommunicated. It's so weird that celebrity. Celebrity Mormons get a pass and get to live under a double standard, isn't it?

David Archuleta [01:43:20] Well, I. It doesn't. I mean, I don't. I don't believe it anymore. So it doesn't really make a difference to me. Like, it doesn't like being, you know, having my name there, being execute. Like, to me, it's. It doesn't do anything for me other than I. I think if anything, it would probably be more harmful because it would create a conversation that they don't want to have. And I am all, I want to have a conversation. I. I tried to do it. When Elder Ballard was still around. He passed away.

John Dehlin [01:43:59] He promised to get together other apostles to meet with you. Like two or three other apostles. Right?

David Archuleta [01:44:07] He. He said. I mean, he didn't say I promise, but he just. He did say, let's make this happen. And I was really hopeful at the time because I felt like he was understanding where I was coming from, and he saw the points I was making, that they were valid. And so he said, well, I think he's like, other people, the other leaders need to understand this as well. And I was like, yeah, implying that they don't.

John Dehlin [01:44:34] Right. That other members of the Quorum also don't understand. Right.

David Archuleta [01:44:39] Well, when I was making my points, Elder Ballard said. He's like, you know what? He. I've. Which I mentioned in the book as well. But he said, you know, I've never spoken this in depth with a gay person before. And I said, well, how. You know, how can you understand what they're going through and their perspective if you have never spoken to them honestly about it? Because you probably. They usually come in and just give you confirmation bias. Like, they tell you what you want to hear and then suffer silently after they leave because you. They probably would just say, yeah, I'm fixed now. I got married. And. And then you don't check back in with them because you probably don't want to hear that. What. What may happen next. And, you know, that's where Elder Ballard said. He's like, you know what I think we gain. You know, you gain answers by gaining more understanding. And I was like, I agree. So I. Please, like, I would love to give my perspective and my experience with the other brethren. And I've done so much for them. I figured that they would at least give me a chance to talk. You don't have to agree with me. I just want you to hear my story and my experience and why so many others like me suffer so much and have struggled and it's painful. And why they think taking their lives is a better option than anything else

John Dehlin [01:46:09] than a conversation and learning. Right.

David Archuleta [01:46:12] And when they ref. When they ghosted me and when they didn't want to have that conversation for me, that was just very telling. I'm just like, then you're afraid of the. The truth and the answer and that you would have to admit you're wrong. And honestly, I think it's Elder. It's Pres. D. H. Oaks above everybody else because

John Dehlin [01:46:39] I feel he's the current. He's the current prophet.

David Archuleta [01:46:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:42] Yeah.

David Archuleta [01:46:43] So I feel like the others would have been more compassionate and understanding, and they probably will once he's passed, because I saw it in Elder Ballard, and I could tell that he was afraid of. You know, they're. They. They honor the line of the seniority. The seniority.

John Dehlin [01:47:01] Yeah.

David Archuleta [01:47:01] They. They. They're very. They take that very seriously. And I knew who was right above him, so I was just like. I'm like, as long as that is in the way, I'm not. It doesn't seem like I'm gonna get anywhere because Dallin H. Oaks does not want to have this conversation, it would probably unravel everything. He spent so much and it would all have gone to waste. So I get it. I get why he doesn't want to have it. It's just unfortunate that that's the case.

Dallin H. Oaks on Having A Conversation With His Parents

Dissecting The Book of Mormon: An Audition

John Dehlin [01:47:30] Well, once your book tour's over and this has been an international bestseller, if you ever want to come on Mormon Stories and tell the full story, I could talk to you forever. I promise your agent I wouldn't keep you more than an hour. Really quickly, have you ended up deconstructing Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and polygamy and Mormon truth claims? Have you done that?

David Archuleta [01:47:53] When I left in 2022, I allowed myself to ask a lot of questions about Joseph Smith and everything that he had, you know, and I watched a few of your episodes to feel validated and like, make sense. It's like, it feels so nice to finally be able to ask myself and question something that didn't seem right. It didn't come together. But for me it was just kind of like, well, if Joseph Smith was dishonest in a lot of these things and how the Book of Mormon. For me, there isn't really any. It's just like, for me, it's like a, a story that was written by someone kind of like Lord of the Rings or Star wars that has some good life lessons in it. I just don't, I don't take it as the truth. I look at it as something that Joseph Smith wrote and created and was influenced by in his time of sort like the topics that were interesting and the tales he fed off of that. And that's where it came from. I don't, I don't look at it as scripture. So I don't really, you know, I don't look at any of it as the word of God necessarily. I don't, you know, I don't know what God is currently. But my, I feel whatever my concept of it is now, whether it's my higher self or it's this all encompassing connection that connects all life and everything together is a lot for me. It's. It gives me a lot more peace of mind than the God I grew up with, which was when I always felt intimidated by, I felt inferior and unworthy of, but was always seeking approval from. And I've learned that I already have that. And God, the, this, whatever this is, is not as judgmental and already is a lot more understanding and accepting than the Christian or just the God of religions in general. The Muslim, the, the Muslim version, the, the Islam version, the, the Christian one, the Judeo. Like any. I just feel like there's too many assumptions made and old ways of interpreting things that is mixed in, and I'm just like, you know, I. It doesn't. It doesn't make sense to me anymore.

John Dehlin [01:50:33] I.

David Archuleta [01:50:34] Once I had to question my. The sexuality and the placement of the LGBT community and what people had to say and this and that. I was just like, you know what? It was kind of. It was very.

Speaker D [01:50:48] It.

David Archuleta [01:50:48] It was very. I was distraught when it first happened, because when you no longer hold on to a belief system, that was everything. It was how you saw everything in world. Your world, and it's. And it suddenly is gone. You don't see it, and you realize it's like it just all falls apart. It's. It's. It's scary because it's like I don't know what my purpose is anymore. I don't know who I am, because I thought I was this. But, like, it's so relieving, too, to know once you realize and, like, find footing and find another reason to live day after day and have purpose, you. It's. It's freeing. It's freeing, but it's like, you feel awake. It's like, whoa. Like, oh, I can see now. Like, I was. I was so. Like, my vision was so blurred before. So it's like, you know, I once was blind, but now I see kind of a feeling. But it's so. It's so empowering, and it's so nice to know. It's like, you know what? I. I no longer am confused. It's not like, these twisted things in your head that you have to, like, do acrobats to make sense of. I don't have to hold on to that. And, you know, it's. Sometimes you feel bad because it's like I let so many people. You know, I genuinely believed it, but I. I led so many people along with me, convincing them that I knew. I thought I did. But, you know, now I realize, you know, I just learned. I learned more, and, you know, it felt. You know, I had always had doubts about Joseph Smith, even when I was little. But, you know, I was taught not to question it and to just dismiss my feelings because I was like, why is he marrying so many people? And I came across some things online where he had married younger people, and then, like, people who were already married. And so I was like, oh, this isn't what I was told. You know, I was in church being told something completely different. I was told something completely different. In church 20 years ago than what I was told 8 years ago as well. When they're like, yo, we're gonna actually be more honest now. And it's like, I thought you were being. You were supposedly being honest before, and I don't understand why there's so much withholding of information. And I felt like they're just. It was because there were secrets and there are things that they were embarrassed and ashamed about. And if people knew the truth, then they would most likely leave. And it just got to a point where the Internet was too open and available to everyone and accessible, that they're like, we have to be honest now. And it's like, wait, you said you were honest before, so, like, what else have you been dishonest to me about? Because I really was believing you and following, like. And defending you like, nobody's business. And I just feel. I feel a bit betrayed. But I felt betrayed. Like, now I'm just kind of like, you know, what? It is what it is, and, you know, people still find joy in it. People still. I still have friends who find identity and community in it. Like, it gives them a reason to be disciplined and to find structure in their life, and it keeps their family together, gives them, like, a common thing to work towards. Like, I can't be mad at that, but I do feel like it is essential to question some of their policies, some of the things that they've taught as truth when they know that it is not how it's being told to their. Their members.

John Dehlin [01:54:34] Yeah. And, you know, the church teaches wickedness never was happiness, and that being gay is one of the most wicked things you could be. Can you tell your audience now as just your final comment, have you found more happiness, less suicidality, more joy after leaving Mormonism? And I promise it's my last question.

Coming Out: A Personal

David Archuleta [01:54:54] No, I mean, absolutely. Because I thought I was doing the right thing by despising and hating myself. I thought I was doing the right thing, and I thought I would be happier because of it. And when I just finally was like, you know, what. What if I'm okay the way I am? And what if what I was told isn't what it is? And it's. And it isn't true. And when I made space to think of myself in a different way than what I was taught, it was just like, I didn't realize I could think highly of myself. I didn't know that I could love and respect myself. I. I really hated myself. And I believed that no amount of fame, no amount of success could make up for what I was. And to have a complete 180 on that now and be like, I'm happy with who I am. And I. I was so afraid. I. I thought this was the worst outcome I could ever come across. When I was younger, I thought the worst outcome would be to come out and date men. And now it's happened, and life still goes on. And this. We still go around the sun and where I'm alive, and I'm like, that's the thing for me. I'm like, I'm. I'm here. I was like, I. Literally. There's one point where I thought life wasn't worth living because of what I thought I was and what I was told, I was taught to believe of myself. And now that I was able to let go of that belief along with other things, I. I'm just like, man, I. I feel like I was born again. Like, I'm living life again for the first time. And there's a. Like, there's a song that comes out with, like, in the audiobook of. Of devout. And it's. And it talks about how. It's like, I feel like I'm old and young at the same time because I've lived a lot of life. A lot of people have watched me for years do my thing, but at the same time, I feel like I'm seeing the world for the first time because it was so. Like, I was missing so much detail and in, like, ins information the first time around. And now that I'm in my 30s and I've stepped away from the church and I've come out, it's like, oh. Like, it's. It's just not at all what I was told. And it's like. It's just weird. It's weird having to, like, learn what life is again, like, for the second time, but it's also exciting. It's like, wow. I get to. It does feel like I get to live life again and start over. And that. It was terrifying at first. I was like, oh, my God, what am I gonna do? How the hell do I start over? And I'm. Now I'm like, wow, I get to start over. And it's so fun and it's exciting, and there's just more to life than what the Mormon vision gave me. And that's not all there is. So it just took me a while, and it's still taking me a while to get there. Like, it's. But, you know, I'm enjoying it.

John Dehlin [01:58:03] Beautiful. All right, well, the book is Devout by Simon Schuster. David Archuleta. Losing my Faith to Find Myself. David, we've all, in some sense, grown up with you. We've been watching you for decades. We adore you. But most importantly, we respect you. We respected you before, and we respect you now, not only for your beautiful artistic talents and expressions, but also for your courage just to tell your story and to raise your voice and try to help people figure out how to live their best life. I'm sure that's your goal in the end, that just everybody lives their best life. And thank you for this book, everyone. Please buy it right now. Buy the audio version and the print version. Buy it for friends, family. Let's make it an international bestseller.

David Archuleta on Losing My Faith

David Archuleta [01:58:59] Thank you, John. I appreciate it. I appreciate it, and it means a lot. I hope people enjoy the book. Yes. And please, like, spread the word. I feel like there's something. It's not just a queer book. It's not just a religion book.

John Dehlin [01:59:15] And we just scratched the surface today, Believe it or not. We just scratched the surface today. Right.

David Archuleta [01:59:21] Yeah, there's. There's a lot. There's a lot we didn't talk about.

John Dehlin [01:59:25] A lot. We didn't really talk about your dad. Like, there's so much amazing stuff we didn't even talk about.

David Archuleta [01:59:30] You know, thanks. Thanks to my dad. Like, I. I know about your podcast. You know, when he sent me the Gerardo episode and I felt so seen, I was just like, wow, I didn't know I could be seen.

John Dehlin [01:59:42] Yeah.

David Archuleta [01:59:42] Feel seen in this way and in a way that I was so afraid of, you know, being afraid of this. These things grow before. Like, to realize this is where I felt.

John Dehlin [01:59:55] Oh.

David Archuleta [01:59:56] Understood a lot of time. For the first time, in a lot of ways, and for my family as well. Like, a lot of my family has watched your episodes and podcasts and benefited a lot from it because it's like, oh, you. You talk about the things that are really hard for what. We're always hard for Mormons to talk about and discuss important topics. So. So thank you. And so thanks for what you do and your work and your community that you've built because it's helped people who, once they leave the church, it's like, where do we go now? Where do we. Oh, we don't. And you feel alone. It's like, I'm alone. Like, I'm leaving everything. I know. But then it's like, oh, wait, like, you've. There's a community of people who've gone through the same journey. And so thanks for helping us have a landing pad when, when we, when, you know, so we have somewhere to go to, to talk and feel seen and how hard it is too. It's like, oh my gosh, like I don't believe this anymore. I don't feel. But why is this so hard still? Like, I still miss a lot of things about it because, you know, but it's. And it's okay. It's okay to mourn and to, you know, take your time to process all that and, and, and you're helping with that so.

John Dehlin [02:01:06] Well, thank you.

David Archuleta [02:01:07] I appreciate you, John.

John Dehlin [02:01:08] That means a lot. Thank you, David. And thanks for helping pay it forward on Mormon Stories. So. All right, you've been super generous again by devout for friends, family audio and print version. Good luck, David. Yeah, you're going to do great. And I can't wait to see the press tour and all your success and with your upcoming album or song releases as well. I'm sure lots of music is going to be coming in, coming out in the future. Right?

David Archuleta [02:01:36] Yeah, I'm still making music, so it just keep doing my thing with that. The book's been taking a lot of my time and energy right now though. But I'm really excited because I've wanted to have this conversation for a long time now.

John Dehlin [02:01:55] All right, David Archuleta, thanks for coming on Mormon Stories. You're the best.

David Archuleta [02:01:59] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:02:00] Stay in touch. Take care, everyone.

Donor Update: Mormon Stories

David Archuleta [02:02:03] Wow, perfect timing.

John Dehlin [02:02:05] And thanks everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Really quickly. Let me just thank everyone for your support. We couldn't do this without your donors. Please take a moment to subscribe to this channel. We're about 3,000 away from 300,000 on YouTube. If you add up all our subscriptions, we're almost at a million. But YouTube, it'd be great to break the 300,000 barrier. So please subscribe on YouTube like this episode, please share it. You can also like and subscribe on Spotify as well. Thanks to all our donors that make Mormon Stories possible. We are losing our donors because it's financial hard times. So if you value this content and you're not a donor and you want to see Mormon stories continue, the way you can do that is to click on go to MormonStories.org donate click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor, a one time donor. We, you know, we don't make even half of our revenue from ads. We make it almost all through donations. We're a nonprofit. So please subscribe to the podcast donate mormonstories.org donate and then if any of you want to apply to be on the show. It's super easy. Just go to mormonstories.org apply and fill out the application. Thanks again for joining us today. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode. Maybe we'll have Jeanette McCurdy on Mormon stories someday. Maybe we'll bug David about helping get Jeanette to come on Mormon Stories as well. But regardless, be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Buy this book. Devout David Archuleta Take care everybody. See you soon.