Welcome and Episode Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello. Oops. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Mormon News Podcast. I am your co Host for today, Dr. John Dehlin. It is August 14, 2026. I am here with Megan from Generally unquotable. Hey, Megan.

Meggan Hayes [00:00:19] Hey. Good morning.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Good morning. And the thumbnail for today says fair or feral DS warns Satan want you to leave. So that's the teaser. But we've got a lot of great stuff to cover today on the Mormon News Podcast. What's up, Megan? What's going on?

Meggan Hayes [00:00:40] Oh, in the Mormon world, always so much. I think I sent you a text yesterday or the day before that. This is the hardest thing I've ever done trying to find all the stuff that's happened this week and put it into a newscast that's going to be under, you know, three, four hours.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Well, we'll see. We'll see. Well, I've got an announcement I want to make before we actually dive into the substance, but let's give teasers. So tell us what's in store for us today, Megan.

Meggan Hayes [00:01:08] Okay. We're going to be Talking about the fair conference that happened the 5th through the 7th, I believe it was, of August, and going through some clips for that. We are not going to cover the whole conference today, but we are going

John Dehlin [00:01:19] to our viewers and listeners who fair is for those who don't know.

Meggan Hayes [00:01:22] Oh, fair lds it stands for. Now I'm blanking.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] Apologists. Mormon apologists.

Meggan Hayes [00:01:30] Yes, yes. A group of people who spend a lot of time trying to make the church make sense.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] I love it. So they had a conference and so we're going to be reviewing a little bit of it. Is that right?

Meggan Hayes [00:01:41] Yeah. There's going to be a lot more to come in the future, so keep an eye out for that.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] A couple dedicated episodes about that.

Meggan Hayes [00:01:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] Okay.

Guest [00:01:48] All right.

John Dehlin [00:01:48] What else?

Meggan Hayes [00:01:48] We got an article from the Friend magazine. Are there girl bishops and how the church deals with that? Then we're going to be talking about BYU and how they're trying to get CUPID on their campus so they can get more people married.

John Dehlin [00:02:02] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:02:03] We're going to talk about how Miss North Carolina lost her title and how she is saying that that happened because she's a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:02:15] Then we'll this has been big news this week. Chandler Hendry passed away in a car accident. So we'll talk about that. There's been a lot of dialogue about that online this week. And then we have two just little extras where we'll talk about some Reddit conversations and then an update on Dallin Oaks because his birthday happened recently.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] Okay, excellent. Well, thanks for being here, Megan, and thanks for all the work you do. Let me make a quick, Let me welcome our live audience. We love having them. Let me thank Trevor, Trevor Nunn for helping to moderate along with all Julia does for us as well. Want to remind people that if you want us to see your live chat comments, you can send them a super chats and that will help make sure we see them. It also provides a little bit of a donation to us so that we can financially keep doing what we're doing. I want to thank the donors to the Mormon Stories podcast. You make this possible. 80% of our revenue, I think, is donors, not, you know, ads. So thanks for those who support us. If you want, if you don't financially support us and you want to, you can go to mormonstories.org donate but there's a better way and let me explain that now. So I have been trying to. This is a little bit of an announcement. I've been wanting to up our game in the Mormon news area for a long, long, long time and helping Bill Real and Rebecca Biblioteca and RFM create the Mormon newscast that happens every week. You know, they do all the work now, but I will say I think that was my brainchild and I really wanted to see that happen. So I partnered with them early on to get it going and then for a bunch of reasons, I had to drop out. But I'm thrilled that, that, that they're doing what they're doing and they do a great job and I want to see it thrive and continue. Megan, you do a really, really crucial job in Mormon news and that's one of the reasons I parted with you, partnered with you to do the weekly Mormon news podcast here. And I've owned the MormonNews.com domain for a long, long time and I've just sit on it, I've sat on it relatively unused up until this week. So one of the things I've been working on for everybody is A, a version one launching of a new website called MormonNews.com and I want all of you to check it out. Not for what it can bring, what value it can bring to you today. I want you all to go to mormonnews.com to help me decide what we can do to make it useful for people's consumption of Mormon news going forward. So let me describe what it is now and then invite you to give me feedback on what it can be And Megan, I want to hear your feedback on this as well. This is the website. Now@mormonnews.com we've chosen the color orange, hopefully for obvious reasons. And the website does two things primarily. Number one is it's where this podcast's home is going to be. So, Megan, you and I are doing this weekly podcast. Sometimes Nemo helps out. And the podcast needs its own home because even though it's distributed through Mormon Stories Podcast, which we want to continue to help, give it maximum exposure, it deserves its own website. So half of what this podcast, this website is, mormontnews.com is now the home. So you can go to this mormonnews.com and on the right hand side, it says Mormon News Podcast. And if you click on that little link there, it provides all the episodes of previous weeks. And then it also loops in past news episodes that we did. Historically, a lot of those were with Gerardo or with Cara Burrell. But as long as it was talking about Mormon news, I didn't mind incorporating that. So that's the first thing. If you want a centralized place to look at episodes from the Mormon News podcast, you can find that here. There's a little link that says the podcast. That's how you can jump to it. It's also on the front page on right side. Now, the other thing that we're doing on the left side is we're aggregating what we hope are the most important and interesting news stories all across the Internet so that you can go to a single place to get news. Now, I know that Reddit does a good job of that. And we, we don't even see Reddit. We don't want to compete with Reddit and we don't want Reddit to see us as a competitor. We love ex Mormon Reddit and Mormon Reddit and LDS Reddit, and we want to see it continue. And if somebody just wants a central place to find the best news, whether it's Deseret News, Salt Lake Tribune, Reddit, YouTube, wherever, we want them to also be able to have a place where they can find the best stories, the most important stories. So that's what's happening as well on this website. So every hour, this website crawls, you know, the, the Mormon Internet as best as it can under certain categories. So there's LDS Church news. You can see a tab there where it's LDS Church news that's news just affecting the church broadly. Rebecca Biblioteca asked me to create a temple section because she's obviously always interested in what's going on with temples. I created a Joseph Smith section because I'm always interested in what's going on with Joseph Smith. There's a polygamy section as well if you want to know what's being said about polygamy broadly. And then there's a sports section, a YouTube section, an influencer section. And then I added a child abuse section because obviously a lot of us think that the the biggest opportunity for improvement slash. The place for biggest harm in the Mormon Church currently is around child abuse. We also have not shown in the menu a couple other sections as well. And what you can do is you can go to the front page and you can see an aggregation of LDS, church temples, Joseph Smith, polygamy, child abuse, influencers, YouTube and sports there on the homepage. Or you can drill down and then of course you can search, you know, to ask for information on lawsuit, let's just say delin lawsuit and if you hit enter, it's going to return articles on the delin lawsuit. Or let's just say you care about fair, LDS or fair, you can search and there it is. You can find articles about fair in theory. So whatever you want to learn about, you can do searches for it. And then the final thing I want to note is we've put a donate button there so that those who want to donate to this particular and let me just show those who want to donate particularly to this website or to this podcast can donate directly to the podcast. And those funds will be used specifically for the podcast and the website. So that's the new project. And here's again what I want to say. That's just what I've done in the last few days and weeks. What I'm interested in more is what we can do to make this website really impactful going forward. Because there's an argument to say we don't need another news aggregator. You can just aggregate news from going setting a news alert on Mormon or LDS from Google News. Why would you need an aggregator? And my answer is I don't know. What I know is I have mormonnews.com I have the ability to make it whatever we want. We have this podcast. What else can we do? What else would be interesting? So. So dream big, everybody. If you have ideas on how mormonnews.com can help change the game regarding Mormon news, Mormon news commentary, I want to hear your feedback. You can actually send your feedback specifically to AdminOrMondNews.com or you can send them to me@MormonStoriesGmail.com and of course, I'm sure you have ways to get feedback as well. So really quickly, I know I've taken already a good five minutes of our show. Any thoughts, Megan? Because I haven't really even talked to you about this yet.

Mormon News Podcast New Website Launch

Meggan Hayes [00:11:11] My plan is to use the site this week and then get a feel for it and see, you know, what I think could be added or maybe what's not working well, because I think that's the best way to really dive in is just to. As I'm preparing my news stories this week, I'll go there first and see what happens. But as for now, I like it. I like the design. It's very clean. It's an easy way to get in there and see all the news at once. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:38] And if you find it's missing, if people find it's missing important stories or not sharing the good stories or doing something wonky, we've tried to build a feature where if there's multiple stories about the same topic, that it aggregates those stories under a single story and then you can drill down and see others. But yeah, please give us all the feedback also, in terms of how good it is at choosing the right stories and what we could do to make it better at selecting the right stories. Anyway, I hope you think that's cool, Megan. I hope you're okay with us having a homepage for this podcast and let's just see where it goes from there.

Meggan Hayes [00:12:17] Yes, absolutely. No, I've had a couple of people reach out to me and be like, did you see this? This is so cool. And I was like, oh, yeah, of course, John. Reach out to me. And they're like, well, how do you feel? I'm like, I don't actually know. So every morning when I wake up, I just have to remind myself that this is my life and I get to live it and it's pretty exciting.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] Well, one thing I want to do is include a link to important Mormon news outlets. And I can include a link to Generally Unquotable because I want you to thrive. And I can include a link to, you know, Mormon Ish, because Rebecc does such great work. I can include a link to to the Mormon News podcast with Radio Free Mormon and Bill Real and any anywhere else, including Mormon Land podcast and other really credible outlets for Mormon news. Because I just think we need more and better outlets for Mormon news, and most importantly, more and better thoughtful commentary and analysis on Mormon news. And that's what we're trying to do here.

Guest [00:13:17] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] So anyway, Remind me to put a link to great outlets, because that clearly is something I could do to improve this website. Because I want a rising tide to lift all ships. I'm not trying to take over this space. I'm trying to grow a healthy news ecosystem with this website. Does that make sense?

Meggan Hayes [00:13:38] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] Yes. All right. All right. I hope you feel, Megan, that I want you to thrive and succeed separate from me, and I want everyone else to feel that way as well.

Meggan Hayes [00:13:48] Yeah, no, I have felt successful to the point of not always knowing what to do with it.

FAIR LDS Conference Overview and Scott Gordon

John Dehlin [00:13:57] Okay. All right, well, thanks for letting me take a little bit of time at the beginning. Let's jump back to the wonderful program that you've. That you've designed for us today. Where do we start?

Meggan Hayes [00:14:10] Well, we're going to start with breaking down a few clips from fair. And like I said, I started diving into the conference and the amount of clips that I wanted to show was overwhelming. So I focused a lot on the first speaker, who is Scott Gordon, and then just a couple of clips from a few other people and then with the promise that we will continue on in a different episode.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] Okay, so this is just a teaser, a taste. Okay. And so. So right off the bat, I see this guy. He might think of me as a nemesis or my. My low brain might think of him as a nemesis. This is Scott Gordon. He is for at least two decades, as I recall, the founder or the. Or the leader at FAIR LDS or FAIR Mormon. And so we're. It's fitting, Megan, that we start with Scott Gordon. So anything you want to say before we start this first clip?

Meggan Hayes [00:15:04] Oh, no, I think we should listen to it.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] Alrighty. All right, let's hear what Scott Gordon has to say.

Guest 2 [00:15:12] Throughout history, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has faced a variety of attacks. The details may change, but the objective remains the same. Satan, our ultimate adversary, does not particularly care whether people leave the church because of scripture, history, politics, social issues, or personal offense. He simply wants them to lose faith in Jesus Christ and his restored gospel and leave. He often does this by disrupting trust in faithful sources. He leads us down a path where we end up trusting negative or sensational claims, assigning negative motivations, and engage in mind reading of current and historical figures.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] Okay, Megan, what do you think is interesting about that?

Meggan Hayes [00:16:02] He is setting up such a binary. And this is the way he started the conference. He's the first speaker on Wednesday night, and he's saying, you know, things are either negative or they're positive. I mean, that's the message that I'm receiving from him, and he's like, we need to take all of these negative things and get rid of them and just focus on the positive, which is just not realistic. If you look at life as a whole, it's not realistic to function that way. And if he's looking at church history or church doctrine, it's also not just helpful when trying to be a whole person to look at things that way.

John Dehlin [00:16:43] Yeah. My reaction is, first of all, it's such an talk about anachronisms. It's such an outdated way to look at the world. To look at the world in terms of Satan and his influence. Like, maybe he really believes that there's an evil Satan out there with all his minions of evil spirits working evil in the hearts of podcasters everywhere. That's just not. That's like witchcraft. That's like Ouija board garbage. That's superstition. That's as dumb of folk magic as Joseph Smith looking for lost buried treasure with the seer stone and a hat. What is operating right now in the Mormon Internet is not a demonic spirit influencing people. It's literally the fact that the church, for all the good that it does, the church has harmed a lot of people as well. And it's also deceived and misinformed a lot of people. And so what's happening on the Internet, Scott Gordon and Fairmormon in our listenership, is that Megan and John and Rebecca and RFM and Bill real feel, feel and felt called and Julia and everyone else feel and felt called to say truth matters, history matters, people being harmed matters. So let's lift our voices and help there be less harm in Mormonism writ large, more truth in Mormonism writ large, more thoughtful discussion in Mormonism writ large so that we can be healthier as a broad Mormon community. That's what's happening. And I don't know about you, Megan, I think we've talked about this before. I'll say it a thousand times. I am not. I do not exist and do what I do to destroy faith. I have no problem with faith. I have no problem with people being members of the church. I have no problem with the church being healthy and thriving. What I want is that people who want to base their lives on reality can do that. I want there to be science and evidence based and evidence and science based, informed decisions. And I want people to know and understand the history via informed consent so they can make informed decisions if they want to. And if they decide to stay or leave the church, I don't care. I just want the church to be honest and to harmless people and then to help the people who want or need to leave. So this, this framing of Satan doing evil and us trying to tear away faith, it's not only rhetorically offensive, it's just plain wrong. He doesn't. After 21 years, Scott Gordon just can't get himself to see what motivates us at our core. And I think that's the biggest problem I have with Fair Mormon. They don't actually listen to critics to get to understand what they actually think and care about and what motivates them. They just assume the worst motives and set up straw men to paint us as evil so that they can then make their score their points.

Meggan Hayes [00:20:09] Yes, yes. Like that's, that's why his binary is so powerful because it gives him this space where he is right and we are wrong. And so his curiosity is stymied by that. It makes it, I think, hard for him to look outside of that and see us as people, as humans who could sit right next to him and probably have a lot in common.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] Yeah, beautiful. So well said. But, but also is he powerful? Is he effective? Like my. One of the main key learnings I've had for the past 24, 21 years is Mormon apologetics like Fair Mormon are two things. They're a channel to people losing their faith because they talk about all the problematic issues. So Fair Mormon is part of the informed consent process because they talk about the issues when the church won't. Fair Mormon actually does as good of a job or better than the rest of the ex Mormon Internet on educating members about the problems with the church. And then secondly they give such bad arguments, such mean spirited ad hominem arguments or illogical or unscientific justifications and arguments that, that smart believers can see through their bad argumentation and it, it ends up in the long run, deteriorate deteriorating faith. And so I, I don't know that he, if he thinks that we're satanic. I think Scott Gordon and Fair Mormon should look in the mirror because just like I believe Russell and Nelson and Downate jokes have taken more people out of Mormonism than all of the ex Mormon Internet combined with the November 2015 policy and its rescission in 2019. I think Fair Mormon and those like them have taken way more people out of Mormonism than the ex Mormon Internet.

Meggan Hayes [00:22:18] Right. Because that's not even our goal. Like you said, we, we aren't here to take people out. We're, I mean I don't know about you, but I'm here to give them a place to go when they are out. To give them a safe place to say I was harmed by this or I don't understand it. And for that to be okay, for them not to feel so lonely that they don't want to stay on earth anymore.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:22:42] And for them to process everything that happened in a place where if they decide to go back, that that's okay. Right. Like you said, a non judgmental space that they can land and start the process of. What do I want to do next?

John Dehlin [00:22:56] Yeah, I'm going to make it right out the beginning. I'm making an offer to Fair Mormon and to the Mormon Church. If anyone in the Mormon Church or Fair Mormon wants to meet with me or us and collaborate with us on how we can more effectively work together for the good of the broader community, I will do that. In my mediation with the Mormon Church during the lawsuit where they were suing me, there was a point where I literally said to the mediator, ask the other side if they have any interest in, instead of suing me and demeaning me, ask them if they want to collaborate on how to work together for the benefit of everyone. And of course I got no positive response from that. I don't know what the mediator shared with the other side, but I'm going to offer that to Scott Gordon and Fair Mormon. If you don't like what Mormon Stories is doing, I'm willing to listen because I want to do good and you know, but, but we need to talk about that. All right, so that's all. Should we go to the next clip?

FAIR Warns About Satan and Ex-Mormon Half-Truths

Meggan Hayes [00:23:59] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] All right, let's do it.

Guest 2 [00:24:02] Throughout history, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has faced a variety of attacks. The details may change, but the objective remains the same. Satan, our ultimate adversary, does not particularly care whether people leave the church because of scripture.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] We already play this.

Meggan Hayes [00:24:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:21] Okay. Wait, that I, I, Are they the same clips?

Meggan Hayes [00:24:24] Then go to five.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] Okay, okay. I'm sorry, I, I, I thought I played three.

Meggan Hayes [00:24:30] First three was just a slide. It's not a, it's not a clip.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] Oh, got it, got it, got it. Okay. Sorry everyone. Thank you for that. My, my bad. Next clip.

Guest 2 [00:24:43] Fair as a policy, now avoids debates. So I thought I would debate myself to illustrate what it was like. As I am debating myself, I am optimistic I might possibly win. You believe that you can become gods. That's Satan's plan. Satan said so in Genesis. 3, 4, 5, you shall not surely die. You shall be as the gods, knowing good and evil. But you failed to turn the page to see God's response to this, where he says in verse 22 of the same chapter, and the Lord God said, behold, the man has become as one of us to know good and evil. Satan speaks in half truths. Half of what he said here was true as it was repeated by God. He talks about this in Romans 8, 16 and 17, where he says, we are children of God, and if children, then heirs. Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. In Acts 28 it says, for we are also his offspring. Even the early Christians wrote about this. If the Bible says it and the early Christians repeat it, the real question becomes, why don't you believe it? And how did Joseph Smith know what those early Christians taught?

John Dehlin [00:25:53] Wow. Wow what? I'm dying to hear what you liked about that clip.

Meggan Hayes [00:25:58] I was just trying to give a flavor of. Because he spends a good portion of his speech doing that where he's debating himself. And that portion stuck out to me because the next clips will kind of go through it a little bit. The evolution of the church's theology about who God was, who he is now, and how we're supposed to become like him has changed so much. And it made me curious as to whether if Scott had existed in the early parts of the church, he even would have said the same thing that he just said. And how fair kind of evolves along with the church and is at the forefront of the talking points that they use to keep people, for better. Lack of a better phrase in line. So. But he, he spent a lot of time doing that debate. And it just made me laugh at the beginning when he said, I'm debating myself, so I'll probably win.

John Dehlin [00:26:57] Well, the one point I grabbed from that is. And I, I just wish. It's so weird. He says that Satan speaks in half truths. And of course Satan isn't speaking. So what he means is ex Mormons speak in half truths. And I just, I just, I want to look at this guy and say, Scott Gordon, have you at all objectively looked at how the Mormon Church has communicated its history and its truth claims for the past 200 years? Like Mirror, Meet Scott Gordon. Like, the church has been deceptive and incomplete and in its telling of history for 200 years, we in the ex Mormon community are a response to the Church's hiding and deceptions around its history and truth claims. So it's like finger pointing at us, three fingers pointing back. Scott, can you really, with the straight face and a sincere Heart accuse ex Mormons of being the deceptive ones versus what the church's history has been. The Gospel topics essays in the Joseph Smith Papers Project. Why? And the books. What's the book? Saints.

Meggan Hayes [00:28:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] And, you know, whatever else we want to celebrate as being refreshing in 2026. Why are they. Why are they worth celebrating? It's because for the previous 200 years, the church has been deceptive and hiding about its history. So I'm just. I'm stunned that he's laying that on us when really he should be looking in the mirror at himself and the church.

Meggan Hayes [00:28:43] Yeah. Go to the next slide. We'll see how half of a truth has been abandoned.

John Dehlin [00:28:48] Okay, thank you.

Meggan Hayes [00:28:49] Yeah. In 1840, Lorenzo Snow said, as man now is, God once was, and God as God now is, man may be. And in 1844, Joseph Smith said, God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. And then in time magazine on August 4th of 1997, Gordon B. Hinckley was asked about that God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are? And Gordon Hinckley answered in a half truth, I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't know that others know a lot about it.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] Okay, now, is that from Scott's presentation, or did you put that together?

Meggan Hayes [00:29:46] No, I put that together.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] So it's an example of. Of who's telling the half truths, right?

Meggan Hayes [00:29:51] Yes. Yes. Well, and he's. He's going through this whole diatribe about, I'm debating a Bible basher. Right. And this is how I'm going to do it. And I'm going to win because I'm debating myself. But they're asking us why we believe that we can become like gods. And I'm going to tell them this scripture and this scripture and this scripture, and I'm like, Scott, you. Your own church has changed your theology. Theology on. On who God is and how you

John Dehlin [00:30:16] believe that and a million other things.

Meggan Hayes [00:30:19] Yes. Yeah. So I just thought that was a really good example. And the next.

John Dehlin [00:30:23] Yeah. And I, like, I think it's worth asking, like, I. I think Scott Gordon is a good guy in a way. So, like, why can't they just be honest and say, yeah, the church hasn't been honest and this backlash is in response to the church not being honest. Why do they have to then accuse us of what the church is guilty of? You know, why can't they see it? Is it just. They know they'll get in trouble with the church if they lay the blame on the church, or do you think they really just can't see that the church is the core of the problem? What's your opinion, Megan?

Meggan Hayes [00:31:00] I think there are probably a lot of them who can't see. Like, if I look back at myself when I was a Relief Society president and I was struggling in the church and defending it at the same time, because from my very first breath, it was all that I had known. I didn't have any way to look outside of that and look in. And I don't know if this. That's the case with Scott, but it could be. It could be that this is his entire worldview.

John Dehlin [00:31:27] I mean, I would say yes, except there's a point. You know, the guys at Curt McConkey know the guys and gals at Kurt McConkey know there's an abuse problem, a child abuse problem in the church because they're settling multiple child abuse cases every week. So there's a point. And same with fair. Fair knows the problems because they swim in the problems all day long. So it's hard to imagine that Scott hasn't swam in this stuff for so many decades that he doesn't really know in his heart of hearts, the church has been deceptive about its history and its truth claims. He's got to know. So maybe, I guess I can't go with you that he doesn't know better. I think the most charitable interpretation I can make is that he compartmentalizes. He knows that on some level, but he can't ever really have that be part of his rhetoric or even his decision making, because it wouldn't be good for him or the church for him to ever note that or talk about it in any meaningful way.

Meggan Hayes [00:32:34] I mean, it could be good for him to talk about it, but it definitely wouldn't be good for the church.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] How could it be good for Scott Gordon, in his role as head of fair, to constantly acknowledge that the ex Mormon problem is rooted in the church's historical deceptions?

Meggan Hayes [00:32:50] Well, it couldn't be good for him as Head affair. That would. He would have to step down from that position. But it could be good for him as a person. Maybe not for that part of his career. He'd have to do something else.

John Dehlin [00:33:02] Yeah, yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:33:03] I mean, we would welcome him with open arms into the ex Mormon community, though.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] Yeah. I assume Scott knows what's best for him. But anyway, that's interesting. All right, let's go to the next clip.

Meggan Hayes [00:33:12] So this next clip is a follow up of the last slide. It's just showing how Gordon Hinckley then assured the. Oh, I love the Saints. Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:33:21] That he knew what was going on.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] Okay. I personally have been much quoted and in a few instances, misquoted and misunderstood. I think that's to be expected. None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine. I think I understand them thoroughly.

Meggan Hayes [00:33:51] And it is unfortunate that the reporting

John Dehlin [00:33:53] may not make this clear.

Meggan Hayes [00:33:56] I hope you will never look to

John Dehlin [00:33:57] the public press as the authority on

Meggan Hayes [00:34:00] the doctrines of the church.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] Wow. Yeah, that. And I. And I. I feel bad that I broke up the continuity between the previous slide and that video because that's one of the most blatant examples of dishonesty in modern Mormon history. Let me have you comment to that first, and then I want to go ahead.

Meggan Hayes [00:34:21] Yeah. So he was interviewed by Time magazine. He gave the response that I said where he said, I don't know that we really say that God was once a man. I don't know that we teach that. You know, and then in conference, he went in, this was just a few months later, and assured everyone, I, of course I know the doctrine. Don't you worry. Plus, I was probably just misquoted. It was just, you know, throwing his hands out there and magically wanting to make it all go away. And he's obviously in front of a rapt audience who thinks that it's a last line.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] Yeah. And he admits that he understands the doctrine thoroughly. Right. So what is it? So I. The only way. The only sense I can make of that is he takes lightly what the early prophets said. In other words, the only way I can square all that is that Gordon B. Hinckley didn't believe that if Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or Lorenzo Snow or whoever said whatever they said, that it's necessarily binding and authoritative. In other. You know what I'm saying? Because otherwise, I don't know how to square the fact that it was so clearly Mormon doctrine for so long that God was once A man. And that man can become gods. So either he's just deceptive, and I tend to like Gordon B. Hinckley and want to think he's not just a. An evil, deceptive person, or again, he compartmentalizes. Or he's actually saying the quiet thing out loud, which is Mormons take with a grain of salt things that previous prophets have said.

Meggan Hayes [00:35:59] Well, and how is this different from the half truths that Scott Gordon was talking about?

John Dehlin [00:36:04] And I think your microphone just went, oh, go tap on your mic really quick. Say it again. That's better.

Meggan Hayes [00:36:14] Okay. Okay. I turned it down a little bit because I was getting echo, but I can turn it back up a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] Oh, okay. Keep going.

Meggan Hayes [00:36:22] I was just. How. I was asking, how is this different than the half truths that Scott Gordon was talking about? I mean, what President Hinckley is doing, he's saying the parts that he needs to say when certain people are listening, and then he's changing his rhetoric when other people are listening.

Guest 3 [00:36:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] Yeah. Really quickly, Megan, as far as the echo goes, I don't know if there's a way to turn down the volume in your headset without turning down how loud your microphone comes through to us.

Meggan Hayes [00:36:56] Yeah, I can turn it down, but that's.

John Dehlin [00:36:57] That'll help you with the echo is if you're.

Meggan Hayes [00:37:00] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:37:01] Your headphones aren't feeding back into your microphone.

Meggan Hayes [00:37:04] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:37:05] That's usually how it works. Anyway, I don't mean to explain you, but that's my misunderstanding.

Meggan Hayes [00:37:10] No, I'm always fiddling with it.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] Anyway, I'm sorry. There's an echo that's really annoying and it gives you a headache. So anyway, to. To just close out our point. Yeah. Pot, kettle, like Scott Gordon really, is it. Is the. Is the half truth problem an ex Mormon problem, or is it a Mormon church leadership and a fair Mormon problem? And again, I believe, take the LDS discussion series, take CES letter, take Mormon Think.

Guest 3 [00:37:38] Take.

John Dehlin [00:37:39] Take whatever catalog of discussion of truth claims. I think ex Mormons would always outshine fair Mormon in an objectivity test of who's being more accurate, who's being less biased, who's telling the most full truth,

Meggan Hayes [00:37:56] and who is accepting of critique and willing to change their mind and not

John Dehlin [00:38:02] just admitting that they're starting with a bias. Like, at least, unlike fair Mormon, I don't start saying I want to disprove everything and I want the church to die, and I want to interpret all the data in a way that kills faith and harms the church. That's not how I start. I just like, what's the history? What's the news story? Where's the science? What does the harm look like? That's where I start from. But fair Mormon often admits, they start that the church is true, and then all the rhetoric and the evidence gathering and the content that they create is shaped around those starting assumptions. So, you know, anyway, maybe we shouldn't even take their accusations too seriously, because they tell us up front all they're doing is trying to defend the Church. They're not actually interested in truth.

Meggan Hayes [00:38:56] Yes, their accusations say a lot more about them than they do about us.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] A thousand percent. Very well said.

Meggan Hayes [00:39:03] Yeah.

Latter-day Saints Becoming Gods and Prophetic Claims

John Dehlin [00:39:03] All right, should we go to the next slide?

Meggan Hayes [00:39:05] The next slide just caps off that whole God was once a man thing, because now it pulls out the. What the current church website says, do letters? Do Latter Day Saints believe they can become gods?

John Dehlin [00:39:19] Okay, all right, let's play it.

Meggan Hayes [00:39:21] Oh, no, not this.

Guest 2 [00:39:21] It was a little note here.

John Dehlin [00:39:23] Not this one. The one before it.

Meggan Hayes [00:39:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:25] Oh, this slide.

Meggan Hayes [00:39:26] Yeah, it just. It just brings that discussion kind of full circle. So this is what they have on their website now.

John Dehlin [00:39:32] Okay. And summarize it for us.

Meggan Hayes [00:39:34] Well, they basically say. They basically ignore the whole God was once a man thing. They just don't even discuss that. Can Latter Day Saints become gods? And then they put some scriptures in there saying, yeah, we can. We can become like God. He wants us to become like him. So they're kind of skirting around it still, and they call it a caricature. Let's see, the sentence says, latter Day Saints believe that God wants us to become like him. But this teaching is often misrepresented by those who caricature the faith, which I thought was super interesting. So I spent a lot of time thinking about it, and this is what I came up with. Calling it a caricature makes it sound like critics invented the idea. But where did the caricature come from? Earlier LDS leaders in church materials explicitly talked about exalted people creating worlds and having spirit children. So it's just. Yeah, they. They get upset at the members for certain ideas that they have, but their ideas that the leaders actually preached at one point or another.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] Yeah, that's such a great point. And I think it's number one interesting. Why are we listening to fair Mormon about what Mormon doctrine is like? Isn't it the prophet seers and revelators job to tell us? But has. Has. Are you aware of any general conference talk that clarifies the theosis doctrine that says, hey, you know, how, you know, we believed Historically, that God was once a man and men can become gods. You know how that's been the pillar of the Mormon plan of salvation from the beginning? Well, that's not really what's going on. We as Mormons can become more and more like God, but we're never actually going to become gods. Has any prophet or apostle said that, ever?

Speaker F [00:41:18] No.

Meggan Hayes [00:41:18] No. And actually, it's funny, I was listening to David Bednar and Patrick here on this Week talking about the changes for the Sunday sessions that's coming up right where now they go to Priesthood and Relief Society every week and Sunday school every week. So all the meetings are going to be super short. And the entire point of their whole talk was the church can't provide everything for you and we can't provide you all of the doctrine that you need. You just need to study it out for yourself. So that's why it's okay if church is shorter, because we talk to God, but we just really can't be in charge of providing you with everything that you need. Which I know they can't provide him with everything, but it was just hilarious to me that they don't, they don't get up in conference and talk about the doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] Yeah, they don't. But, but it's odd that they. I mean, it's weird. There's some of the church headquarters, I mean, fair Mormon and fair lds, they don't just go off half cocked. They clearly feel like they have permission to basically reframe core Mormon doctrine on their website. And yet. Yes, so, and yet it's, it's, it's clear that the Mormon church leadership doesn't want this change to be disseminated broadly to the church directly or in its curriculum. So it's almost like the church leaders are saying, okay, fair Mormon and fair lds, we want you to be able to message the theosis doctrine in a way that combats critics and that then can also be used for the evangelical world and the broader world so that they don't think we're crazy, which is what Hinckley was trying to do. But at the same time, we're never going to really actually change the doctrine for the membership. And it must be the leaders that are allowing this duplicity, because Hinckley modeled the duplicity. So that's interesting. Is that. What does this tell us? Who cares about fair? What does this tell us about top Mormon church leadership? That it's. That core doctrine can change, but they won't ever tell the membership, but they'll allow an unofficial air quote Nonprofit, to combat critics with the change and to promote that change to the world for PR and marketing purposes. But they won't. The leaders of the church won't come clean themselves in any meaningful way.

Meggan Hayes [00:44:01] Yes. You know, I've heard you say this so many times in the past couple years. We've had a lot of Mormon true crime. Right. We've had Lori Valo and Chad Dabell and Ruby Frankie and the top leaders the same. They will not come out and say, y' all should probably stop reading Visions of Glory. But we, we're not going to get to this part of Scott Gordon's talk because there was just too much. He actually goes into how becoming part of those groups is apostasy. But that's something that the leaders won't say over the pulpit. They won't say that Lori Val and Chad Dabel were dangerous.

John Dehlin [00:44:32] Stop being a prepper. Right?

Meggan Hayes [00:44:34] Yeah, but Scott Gordon says it in this same address.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] Yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, I think it makes sense. When you think about how Hinckley was taken to the woodshed for comments he made on Larry King and the Time magazine and the Mike Wallace. When you think about how Jeffrey R. Holland was smacked, gobble smacked by the BBC when he tried to speak candidly, you know, back in the day during the Romney campaigns, etc. I mean, the brethren, their average age is what, 80, 85? Like, first of all, they don't know how to address the problems. And then secondly, they're probably too old to do it effectively, even if they did know how to solve, you know, to speak to the problems. So I get why the Brethren don't want to ever touch any of this stuff and just want to speak in vague generalities and platitudes because they're not up to it, you know?

Meggan Hayes [00:45:31] Yeah, they're not. That's the other thing I was watching this morning was the video with Nemo and the guy who's an atheist, I can't remember. Yeah. And that's what he went to general conference and he was talking about how it was so boring. Yeah, it's like it was just really boring. I thought the, the prophets of God would say something, anything about current events, give us any shred of information or advice about how we should be acting in this crazy world we're in. And I got nothing.

John Dehlin [00:46:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's, it's tr. You know, but, but if you look back 40 years, they said a lot, but it was super cringy and harmful and anti scientific and homophobic and, and misogynistic. And racist. Like, I think they know now all they can do is speak pablum, because either they're going to say something racist, sexist, homophobic, or scientifically wrong or historically wrong, or they're going to make big changes that disrupt and destabilize the church. So instead, they're just going to give pablum, constant pablum to the members.

Meggan Hayes [00:46:39] Yep. Just Jesus in love and. Which is great. It's great. But a prophet of God should be giving us something that we don't already know.

John Dehlin [00:46:47] Yeah, it depends on how you define profit. We could talk about that another time. But, yeah, I'm changing what I, what I think the term prophet means, but we won't go into that today. Okay. Should we do the next clip, Megan?

Meggan Hayes [00:46:59] Yep. It's going to be more of Scott.

John Dehlin [00:47:00] Okay. All right, let's do some more.

Guest 2 [00:47:02] Scott, you will note here in my discussion that nobody was convinced. So don't plan on many conversions coming from this kind of discussion. But knowing these responses can demonstrate the strength of our position and help youth, newer members, and young missionaries strengthen their confidence and faith while removing stumbling blocks that often come from family members and church pastors.

John Dehlin [00:47:27] Okay, Megan, what, What do you got? What, what, what was that shared for?

Meggan Hayes [00:47:31] I, I just like that he admitted that he showed them this whole debate and it's not going to win anybody over. Like you're wondering what he knows. I think deep down he knows that this is not for people who are investigating the faith for sure. And it's not for people who are already out. It's not going to convince those people.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] Yeah. You know, I'll never forget when Marlon Jensen was church historian and making the rounds. And I met with him once for a very long lunch, and then I had communications with him afterwards. And then other people shared with me their communications with Marlon Jensen. And for those who don't know, Marlon Jensen more than anyone else is responsible for the Gospel topics essays being released. Marlon Jensen for decades was like the church's key guy to help swoop in like Batman and help resolve people's faith crisis issues. And, you know, an example is that of that was when he and Richard Turley were called to Sweden to help try and, and, you know, resolve the Swedish rescue where Hans Mattson and a bunch of Swedes were losing their faith in the church and leaving. And the upshot from, from Marlon Jensen's time at resolving people's faith and doubts was, and I've got this directly from Marlon, once somebody loses their faith because of history or Truth claims or science or social justice kind of issues. They almost never come back. There's this podcast that's quite popular. I think it's called the Comeback Podcast that shows people who left the church and came back. Have you heard of it? I've never watched what I've heard about it.

Meggan Hayes [00:49:16] No, I've heard of it. And my general consensus of it is that they didn't leave the church, they just stopped going.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] Yes. And I call those people Jack Mormons. It's people that just lose interest for a time, or they. Or they actually literally do fit that stereotype of falling into sin and they leave, but they never deconstructed their belief. They never learned about polyandry and Peepstones or. Or misogyny or racism and came to care about those issues or cared about science or cared about truth. It was just like, it's not working for me. Or, oh, I. I fell in love, or, oh, I got addicted or whatever, and. And they were Jack Mormons, but they never processed intellectually and emotionally, their Mormonism. So when they came back, it's literally like, I got sober and I came back, or, you know, my life went in the toilet when I left the church. And so I came back because at least in the church, my life didn't go in the toilet. But. But Scott, if Scott's saying what. What Marlon Jensen and others have told me or others directly, which is once you lose your faith over intellectual or social justice issues or abuse issues, it's almost never that you come back, or at least never come back as an orthodox believer.

Meggan Hayes [00:50:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:40] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:50:40] Yep. And he said it right out loud.

John Dehlin [00:50:42] Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's great. And thanks for saying the quiet thing out loud, Scott Gordon. All right, next clip. Should I just play it?

Meggan Hayes [00:50:53] Yes, go for it.

Fawn Brody and No Man Knows My History

John Dehlin [00:50:53] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:50:55] Attacks on our history and our character have increased. Great effort has gone into trying to show the church is dishonest in our portrayal of history. One foundational reading source frequently recommended by critics is the 1945 book, no Man Knows My History, written by Fawn Brody. Now, I'm sure you're thinking that book is too old. Nobody uses it anymore. But you will find snippets of her arguments strewn across the Internet. This book is promoted by several prominent podcasts, websites, and message boards that promote leaving the church. One popular podcaster just made an audiobook reading of this book. Plus, if you go to any Barnes and Noble bookstore today, you will find this book is highly recommended. Here is a picture of the religion section in my bookstore in Redding, California, where it has long been a prominent book and a bestseller for as long as I can remember. And here is a picture of the bookstore, the religion section in the American Fork, Utah, Barnes and Noble. You will notice that there's a recommendation card from the American Fork Barnes and Noble staff. Brody approached her subject with dated and now widely rejected psychological theories. She started with the predetermined conclusion that Joseph Smith was a fraud. She relied heavily on hostile sources, made factual errors, including quoting fabricated stories that are still repeated today. Brody writes with obvious literary skill, but even scholars who agree with her position acknowledge her personal bitterness and methodological weakness undermine the work.

John Dehlin [00:52:28] Oh, my gosh. Go ahead. I've got so much to say, but I want you.

Meggan Hayes [00:52:32] I wanted to. I wanted to hear what you had to say about this one, because, number one, he mentioned you without mentioning you, which is something we already discussed because he basically says he who Must not be Named did a reading for an

John Dehlin [00:52:45] audiobook, I Am Mormon Voldemort.

Meggan Hayes [00:52:49] But I wanted to hear your take on this, especially after you just went through. How many episodes was it with John Turner?

John Dehlin [00:52:57] 40. I did 41 episodes on the Joseph Smith podcast with John Turner.

Meggan Hayes [00:53:02] Yes. And after all of John's research, he also had thoughts about Von Brody. So.

Guest [00:53:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:07] Okay. Well, we've already made the point about, you know, he basically says. He starts by saying critics of the church are attacking the church's honesty and character. And we've already made that point. I think it's because the church has been dishonest and about how it's portrayed, its history and truth claims. So it's fair game. And it's just weird he can't acknowledge that as far as Brody goes. So I'll say a couple things. The first thing is Richard Bushman himself when he was writing Rough Stone, Rolling Bacon. Pop quiz. Who the most cited source for Richard Bushman, former stake president, former church patriarch, top faithful spokesperson for the Mormon Church for Joseph Smith in his book Rough Stone Rolling. As far as you know, who is Bushman's number one most often quoted source?

Meggan Hayes [00:54:08] Fawn Brody.

John Dehlin [00:54:09] Fawn McKay Brody. Right. And I'll add, and I told you this, I think in text, I remember vaguely Bushman saying that he felt like Brody, liked Joseph Smith and was actually kind to Joseph Smith. Now I want to go back and search and find, but that's what my memory says, so I want to start there.

Guest 2 [00:54:35] So.

John Dehlin [00:54:35] So that's. There's that, you know, he. He attacks Brody for saying, number one, outdated theories. You know, the most credible criticism I've heard of Fawn Brody is that she took a lot of Freudian psychodynamic theories and tried to apply them to Joseph Smith. And on the one hand, Freudian psychodynamic stuff has fallen out of favor in a lot of ways in psychology. On the other hand, there's value in the sort of like the Jungian archetypes that are sometimes reflected in Freud. And I wouldn't say Freud's views are worthless. But more importantly, I actually give credit to Fawn Brody for not only trying to do history, but for trying to do a psychological analysis of Joseph Smith. I think we need more of that, not less. Because what does it value any of us to trash on Joseph Smith or even modern church leaders and just say they're all evil and mean and bad and, and bigots and racists and patriarchal people if we don't understand the human condition, why leaders act the way they act, why men act the way they act, why women act the way they act, why humans act the way they act. History is only valuable to the extent that it helps us understand ourselves better and then helps us act better in the future. So I don't fault Von Brody for trying to understand Joseph Smith, even if she did it with the best psychological tools she had at the time. So there's that. You know, it's weird that he accuses Brody of starting with a point of view. In his case, a critical or a non believing point of view. Right. Why are you laughing, Megan?

Meggan Hayes [00:56:29] Because they admit to doing that.

John Dehlin [00:56:31] That's all they are. Keep going. Sorry.

Meggan Hayes [00:56:34] No, that's it. They, they say they'll admit it out loud. We are going to start with the church is true. We're going to fit everything else into this paradigm. But so help me, if Brody doesn't like Joseph Smith and everything fits into that paradigm, she can't be trusted.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] And a secular historian isn't supposed to start with the belief that Joseph Smith is a prophet. And frankly, that's what makes Richard Bushman's book a slogan, you know, and so hard to get through is because he's constantly trying to say hard things but in a faithful context. And that's not what I want for my historians. I don't want them to have an ax to grind and I don't want them to be apologetic. And that's why I think that Brody did a great job. But I think what really is the news story here is that John Turner's book, and this is like almost personal blasphemy. I would have, if you would have asked Me a year ago. Will you ever depart from the point of view that Von Brody wrote the best biography ever on Joseph Smith? I would have told you probably not. But now that I've deeply read both books and I did record an audiobook of Fawn Brody's no Man Knows My History, that was released about a month ago, I'm going to be doing a series on it soon. So you can either buy it on Audible or you can wait and I'm going to tell you how to get it for cheap and then you can all be a part of this amazing series that I'm building in my mind around Fawn Brody and Joseph Smith. But so I did read Fawn Brody deeply and I read John Turner's book deeply. And I would say now if I had to recommend one book about Joseph Smith, it would be John Turner's book. And that's no disrespect to Dan Vogel, by the way, but I think John had the most access to the most sources. He had the freaking Clayton journals. Right? But he had way more sources than Brody ever had. And he'll admit that. But also he's just. Brody writes in such a dense intellectual, academic, even poetically intellectual style that it's often hard to understand what she's saying. Part of what I think Turner's gift is, is in speaking plainly, but in a way that's very compelling and interesting.

Meggan Hayes [00:58:54] Nephi would be so proud.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] What do you mean by that?

Meggan Hayes [00:58:58] The plain and precious truth.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] Yeah, yeah, I think, I think Turner gets more to the plain and precious truths. He's got better word economy than Brody does. But Brody's brilliant. And so another thing is, I just, I told you this in text. I reject number one that she relied just on hostile sources. I mean that's a trope forever. Like you can't trust the hurlbut affidavits or Mormonism unveiled or whatever because they were critical. But fair would only just trust the faithful sources and not want to trust the critical ones. And Brody just did her best to trust the faithful and the non faithful ones and I think that's, that's she does a way better job at balancing her sources than fair Mormon ever, ever could. And then, you know, the, the thing that I texted you most of all is he accuses her of bitterness. I do not detect a bitter bone in Fawn Brody's body. I think she's a credible academic who was who Bushman says care seem to like Joseph Smith and to be kind to him. And I, I think you could even Say she was generous with Joseph Smith, even though she clearly thought he was a sexual predator on some level and was a fraud on many levels. I think that's what the history plainly shows. How do you argue he wasn't a sexual predator? And how do you argue he wasn't a fraud? But given that I think she's very, very generous with Joseph Smith.

Meggan Hayes [01:00:41] Is there a book about Fawn Brody?

John Dehlin [01:00:43] Yes.

Guest 2 [01:00:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:00:44] Noel Bringhurst. I did an episode on Mormon stories with Noel Bringhurst, who wrote a biography of Fawn Brody. And I recommend that everybody go back and listen to that episode and. Or read Newell Bringhurst's book. But I just think this is a hit smear job on Fawn Brody that she doesn't deserve. But I expect nothing less from Scott Gordon. But I will say, if you want to read one book on Joseph Smith, as much as it feels blasphemous to say it, read Turner's book, but also read Brody's book because it's brilliant. And while you're at it, read Dan Vogel and Grant Palmer and Bushman as well. Anyway, you. You. You probably regret asking me about Brody.

Meggan Hayes [01:01:29] I don't.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] I'm gonna have a few opinions about

Meggan Hayes [01:01:32] her, and that's what I wanted. Plus, I need to go back. I've already listened to that episode with Neil Bringhurst, but I obviously need to listen to it again.

John Dehlin [01:01:39] Okay. Well, Julia and Brooklyn can add that in the show notes anyway. Anything else you want to say about that?

Meggan Hayes [01:01:46] Well, the one thing that came up for me when you were talking was one of the hardest things for me after leaving the church. And, you know, I. I was very angry when I first got out, which is common for a lot of people. And the more I deconstruct, the more I've had to learn and lean into being able to say nice things about people who have harmed me, you know, or systems that have harmed me. You know, the. The church as a system and certain people in it still do really nice things, still do really good things, still feed hungry people. And. And there is a tendency, I think, in all of us to just say, this person harmed me. So they are terrible and they're all bad. And I'm going to point out the 17 news stories this week that prove my point. And I'm just going to not talk about any of the others. And I. I still have to work on it every day to be able to say this person is still a member and they are doing these things that are harming me. And they also have these really good qualities. Which I think is possibly something that maybe was lacking in this tear down of FOM Brody.

John Dehlin [01:02:54] Yeah, we are getting. Thank you for that, Megan. We are getting amazing comments from our viewership, so I'm just going to share a bunch. Jabala writes, Megan is moving up the leaderboard. I agree, she's amazing. Jabala also writes Voldemort. That's his nickname for me. Voldemort. Should that stick.

Meggan Hayes [01:03:15] I'm just gonna write it down.

John Dehlin [01:03:16] Somebody grab voldemort.com because I don't have time to do it right now. That's a great meme. One of my favorite commenters of all time, the Grand Scuba. He's brilliant. Every word he writes. Everyone should read and enjoy. Greg Scuba, thank you for joining us today on the Mormon News podcast. I miss you and I'll have you on anytime and do anything you tell me to do. Just email me. He writes, if you say John de Lind three times at a fair conference, the ghost of Ezra Booth will manifest to spoil the refreshments so they no longer strengthen and nourish your body. Thank you. Grand Scuba Comment anytime. Julia. Always star any comment Grand Scuba makes. So I read it. Spencer Windis writes, John, I agree that there's utility in understanding the psychology of historical actors, and I wish you had discussed the role of disordered narcissism more in your recent Joseph Smith series. Let me just address that. Thank you. Spencer Windez. This is what I want to do next. I want to do a revamp. I have to do 10 episodes on Brigham Young with John Turner, but what I want to do after that is I want to reboot the Joseph Smith podcast series. This time do it with Fawn Brody's book as the text instead of John Turner's book. And instead of inviting historians on, I want to invite psychologists and mental health experts on like Natasha Helper, Julie Hanks, Janice Spengler and other smart mental health professionals and the like, not to discuss Joseph Smith from a historian's point of view, but from a mental health provider's point of view and to talk about Emma from a mental health point of view and Joseph's family and the church and social psychology and mental health disorders and that sort of perspective. A totally different take on Joseph Smith's life that we've never done. And what a better text to do that with and to take advantage of the audiobook that's brand new than to do that with no Man Knows My History. What do you think, Megan?

Meggan Hayes [01:05:31] Oh, that sounds amazing. Right up my alley. Because as much As I love the history and learning about the history, I like the why of the history more. That fascinates me more.

John Dehlin [01:05:41] Of course, it's more important. Yeah, yeah. What's the value of history if it's not for us to live better lives? Jujun Yarna writes. Can you do an audio of Mormon Enigma? No, I think a woman, you know, I felt bad, I felt bad narrating no man Knows My History from the standpoint of it being written by a woman, and yet I'm narrating it and the only thing I'll say is they asked me. And so I did it because I wanted it done. And I felt like maybe my name associated with it could help sell more copies and that would be good for Fawn Brody's book. But the only other two reasons why I felt okay having a man voice no man knows my history is because it's about a man. I mean, no man knows my history is about Joseph Smith and he's a man and he's quoted all the time. And so I, I think, thought it's fair to have a man narrating Joseph Smith specifically. And who better to do that than Voldemor, Right? And then secondly, I, I, I guess I, well, I, I forget what my second point was going to be. I'm sure I'll, I'll think of it. But as far as Mormon Enigma goes, that's about a woman, that's written by women, that's about a woman. And, and I would only want that to be narrated and voiced by a woman.

Meggan Hayes [01:07:04] Yep, I think it would be well done that way. I've read that book and it was amazing.

John Dehlin [01:07:08] Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a critical, it's a critical read. Same with, same with In Sacred Loneliness by, by Compton. I think I would only want that narrated by a woman. I would turn, I would probably, I would turn down an invitation to narrate Mormon Enigma for whatever that's worth. But I don't feel bad that a man narrated no Man Knows My History, even though I deeply respect women in Fon Brody really quickly, Ryan Scott writes, Turner's book was a very informative and easy read. I agree. Grand Scuba writes Mormon Enigma is my favorite perspective on Joseph Smith. Emma's story is so illuminating. That's a brilliant point of view. Megan, maybe you should audio narrate Mormon Enigma.

Meggan Hayes [01:07:54] I do have people tell me at least once a week, sometimes daily that I should read books for them.

John Dehlin [01:08:01] So as an audio reader. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we can talk to Signature books or whoever and see how we make stuff like that happen. Maybe the Saint Tellius writes, john needs to do an audiobook as a side hustle. It's not great money. Like, I make way more money what I do than that audiobook was a book of love. The amount of money I stand to make is nothing. And it was a, it was a money loss for me, not a money gain. In terms of how I could have spent my time, I think I. I think I calculated five bucks an hour. It was horrendous, but I'm so glad I did it. Tanner Plummer writes, listening to no man knows My History book now. Thank you, John Brody. Chuck KV writes, brody had some mistakes, but she was way ahead of her time and still has some excellent critiques that firmly stand. She was the first. Applying historical methods is why I would say over 80% of her analysis and points stand. If you read the CES letter or the Gospel topics essays or the, you know, LDS discussion series, Fawn Brody nailed 85 to 90% of that in 1945 without all the, all the sources that the rest of us have. She's a genius. One quick super chat material writes, love how much you do for the people in this space, John. And I'm going to add Megan. Okay, I'm sorry that I'm not. I'm going to stop apologizing. Let's keep going. Megan. All right, let's go to the next clip. Do you want to say anything about this next clip?

Meggan Hayes [01:09:39] Nope. Let's just dive in.

John Dehlin [01:09:41] Okay. All right, let's dive into the next clip.

FAIR on Anti-Mormon Sources and CES Letter

Guest 2 [01:09:45] I have often been puzzled by the lack of accuracy in anti Mormon sources. It isn't just Fawn Brody. The same lack of accuracy shows up in other sources as well. A few years ago, the former Latter Day Saint community started passing around what some claimed was the Holy Grail of anti Mormon books. A man named Jeremy Runnels compiled a list of questions in a book called the CES Letter and was very successful in marketing the book all over the world. That book drew many people out of the church and many former believers used it as a missionary track to show their families why they left and why their family members should leave, too.

John Dehlin [01:10:24] All right, so he takes a swipe at the CES Letter. Jeremy Runnels. What did you want to say about that?

Meggan Hayes [01:10:29] Well, I just wanted you to know you're not alone. No, he just. He's going down the line of these sources that are threatening his worldview and the worldview of the people. He's talking to. And so, yeah, he has to line it up. He does give one source where he says Jeremy was wrong, and he gives a source where he says the Fon Brody was wrong. And it's interesting to me that he can just only find a few. I mean, maybe he found more and he only had time to throw out one. But his critiques do seem pretty narrow considering the wealth of information that both Von Brody and Jeremy Runnels present.

John Dehlin [01:11:10] Yeah, thank you for that, Megan. And I'll just add two things. Number one is whether it's the lawsuit against me or being mentioned at a fair conference for those who are trying to promote informed consent and to reduce the harm at the church, you know you've made it. You know you've been successful. You know you've been effective once you're being mentioned by name at the fair LDS conference. So I, you know, I can see why they don't want to give me the credit by. By naming me. I can see why they want to avoid it, if for no other reason alone. That what it does is it basically says people like Jeremy and I have been effective or Alyssa Grenfell. And so I don't know that they realize that whenever they name us, they're basically complimenting us because, you know, like I often say, being excommunicated for apostasy in the past two decades. Sam Young, Natasha Helfer, Jeremy Runnels, Nemo, the Mormon, whoever, Brett Metcalf, the September 6th. What it means is, is you're on the right side of history, right? It means you stood for women, stood for LGBT people, stood for truthful history, stood for science. That's what being excommunicated for or stood for helping disaffected people heal and grow afterwards. So it's an honor to be excommunicated for apostasy in the past 20 years, and it's an honor to be called out in a negative way by the fair conference. So I don't think the insults are doing what he thinks they're doing. But secondly, I just think they don't. They just don't get the Streisand effect. They don't realize that. That when they mention me or Jeremy or the CES letter or Eliza Grunfeld or in the church sues me. What they're doing is they're just promoting us. They're just making it so people learn about us and check out our stuff and then ultimately are persuaded by it. Because clearly, clearly, if history show anything, who's more persuasive, Fair Mormon Or Alyssa Grenfell, Jeremy Runnels, John De Lynn, Megan Hayes, Bill Real, you know, Nemo the Mormon. Who's more effective, who's more persuasive. Right.

Meggan Hayes [01:13:26] Well, and it's because we're not even trying to be persuasive. We're just presenting the truth and letting people decide and guess what people want to decide.

John Dehlin [01:13:35] Yes. Amen, Megan. Amen. Amen. Megan, my prayer for you is that your name eclipses all of ours someday at fair lds.

Meggan Hayes [01:13:46] Well, if I get mentioned on that stage, you know I'm going to be listening.

John Dehlin [01:13:50] And I would say my prayer for you is that you also get sued by the Mormon Church. But I don't wish that on anyone.

Meggan Hayes [01:13:55] No, I'd need some real backup singers if that happened.

John Dehlin [01:14:00] All right, well, that's. I think that's enough on that clip. But, but shout out to Jeremy Runnels. You're a legend. Your work isn't perfect. But also, I'll stand up for Jeremy Runnels accuracy and honesty any day of the week over Fair Mormon or the LDS Church any day of the week.

Meggan Hayes [01:14:23] Well, and I've heard you say so many times, we're going to keep doing podcasts about the CES letter as long as they keep bashing it. And so you got to do more, John, because they're still bringing it up.

John Dehlin [01:14:33] I'm going to say this again. You know, the day that, that all of the ex Mormon podcasts go away. Megan. Mormon Church, this is. Make this a short, Julia. Okay, Mormon Church. Fair Mormon, I want to give you the secret of making all ex Mormon influencers go away overnight. Be a hundred percent honest in your depiction of history. Be science based in all of the things you talk about, and stop doing harm to women and stop being racist, stop and stop being lgbt, antagonistic, and, you know, be. Be honest and kind in all of your doings. And as soon as you do that and as soon as you share that sort of communication broadly with the membership, the ex Mormon Internet will die overnight. Am I wrong, Megan?

Meggan Hayes [01:15:35] No, because we wouldn't have anything that we needed to talk about.

John Dehlin [01:15:37] What do we talk about?

Meggan Hayes [01:15:40] We would. We would just applaud them. Thank you. Finally. Now I'm going to do something else with my life.

John Dehlin [01:15:46] Yeah. Because, I mean, I can think of a lot of things that I'd rather be doing in terms of, like, what would be just inherently enjoy. Enjoyable for me.

Meggan Hayes [01:15:57] Well, and possibly less dangerous, if not physically, but emotionally, you know, more financially

John Dehlin [01:16:03] lucrative, less dangerous, less stressful, less complicated for me and my Family. I could. I worked at Microsoft. I worked at MIT. Think about it. I have a PhD in psychology. I could do a few other things right.

Meggan Hayes [01:16:18] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:16:19] I do this because it's where I feel like I can do the most good for humanity right now. But fair Mormon and Mormon Church. You now have the secret to making us all go away.

Meggan Hayes [01:16:32] Yep. It's not a lawsuit.

Guest 2 [01:16:35] That just.

John Dehlin [01:16:35] That just makes your. That just. It makes it worse for you anyway. Yeah. Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:16:41] All right.

John Dehlin [01:16:42] Should we play the next clip?

Meggan Hayes [01:16:43] Yep, go for it.

John Dehlin [01:16:44] People are accusing me of being caffeinated. I don't know why they would be accusing me of that.

Meggan Hayes [01:16:48] Why aren't they accusing me? I got my coffee right here.

John Dehlin [01:16:51] Because you're.

Guest 2 [01:16:52] But you're.

John Dehlin [01:16:52] You're either less animated or more controlled. Which is it, Megan?

Meggan Hayes [01:16:58] A little more controlled.

John Dehlin [01:17:00] Oh, then I feel. I feel empathy for your insides.

Meggan Hayes [01:17:05] But just here, you know, Donnie and I go on walks in the morning. We say, everything.

FAIR Warns Against Criticizing Church Leaders

John Dehlin [01:17:10] All right, let's play the next clip.

Guest 2 [01:17:13] Be wary of criticizing the Lord's church. Don't criticize the Brethren because they may be doing something for a purpose you can't see or don't understand. There will be times when we do not fully understand a decision, a policy, or even a fellow ward member's perspective. In those moments, we must trust the Lord, seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost, and remember that unity in Christ is more important than winning an argument. The controversies get repackaged, the tactics get recycled, but the answer remains the same. Faith in Jesus Christ, loyalty to his restored gospel and the united voices of the apostles, and love for one another.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] Holy moly. There's so much there. Go ahead, Megan.

Meggan Hayes [01:17:56] I know that's how he ends. His opening address is. I have said all of these things that might be a little sticky. I've brought up Von Brody. I've talked about the CES letter. I talked about common debates that we get into, but you don't really need to look at any of that. Just do exactly what the Brethren tell you. Turn off your brain, compartmentalize whatever it is you need to do, and you'll be just fine. And at the beginning of that, he mentions the Brethren first as the person, the people that you should follow, and then Christ takes a second somewhere down the line.

John Dehlin [01:18:32] Oh, my gosh. I love your analysis, Megan. And our listeners and viewers love your analysis. I'll add to that and just say number one. I thought it was interesting that that clip starts with a picture of Kristofferson, because, like, the most problematic thing I've Learned this past 12 months is not the lawsuit against me. It's that the member of the First Presidency, Christofferson, who I tend to like, and I like his brother, Tom Kristofferson. He's a dear friend, right. That this apostle and First Presidency member that I like like, probably got his pedophile brother rebaptized within a year, got his record respunged, eventually got him into a bishopric, got him and did not warn the membership or his own family that there was a predator in their midst, leading to more child abuse. And. And what Scott Gordon is saying, without saying it, is trust D. Todd Christofferson that when he was protecting his pedophile brother Wade, that there's something more sophisticated and spiritual and wise about that than any of us, any of you caveman Mormons who are faithful could ever understand with your caveman brains. You know what I mean, right?

Meggan Hayes [01:20:02] It's not that simple, John. You just don't understand why protecting the predator was the right thing to do do and what God wanted.

John Dehlin [01:20:09] Please, please, Christopher, Sid or Gordon, explain to me why the wisdom in D. Todd Christofferson's expunging of Wade's pedophile record so that he could abuse more people. Please explain to me. Explain to me the spirituality or the sophistication of that decision.

Meggan Hayes [01:20:29] Right? Oh, and how does Christopherson make that work in his own mind?

John Dehlin [01:20:36] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:20:36] Oh, yeah. And then Scott's there to just say, look to the. Look away from all of that, and there's this beautiful painting of the Savior and I'm going to use my soft voice and hypnotize you all back into the church. Is true. And something else I noticed about this conference versus Sunstone that I just went to is they start with prayers and they end their talks. A lot of them, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. Like they would at a sacrament meeting.

John Dehlin [01:21:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll just add again that if you look at the basic cult techniques of what a cult is, it's that you can't criticize or disagree with the leadership. So he's literally promoting a cult like mentality when he says, don't criticize the brethren, which you can't fault him for because Dallin H. Oaks himself has said publicly it's wrong to criticize the brethren, even if the criticism's true. But it is culty. And nobody can disagree that that's culty. I. I don't. I don't care. It's my marriage, my kids, as a father, as a boss. Shoot me the day I say, you

Meggan Hayes [01:21:45] can't criticize me because at what point is there something that needs to be criticized? If it's not the rampant abuse, what is it? What is their line? When somebody needs to stand up and say, this is not okay, they don't have one. Which means they could commit the worst atrocities. And we're all just supposed to sit back and be like, but God, it's dangerous. It's dangerous. And so far we haven't gone into the realm of it becoming something that people are getting so upset about that stopped them from doing that, which I don't know why child abuse isn't that thing. But yeah, they, they could do some really terrible things and feel like God is on their side and the members would be expected to sit back and allow it to happen.

John Dehlin [01:22:37] Yeah, yeah. Let me amend what I just said. Don't shoot me, no matter what. I don't want to be shot. But, but I, I, if I, if there ever reaches the day, you know, I may not like all criticism, I may not share all criticism or even allowed on my platform for various reasons, including sometimes it's dishonest or smearing or, or not fair. But anybody that says I'm above criticism or the leaders are above criticism, that's a tell, That's a tell that you're in a cult. I hope. I'm never caught saying that to anyone. It's super culty.

Meggan Hayes [01:23:15] And the fellow that you interviewed recently who was a, who is, is a therapist and then he left the church. I can't remember his name, but I was listening to it this morning. He said, if we don't fail, and we don't fail openly, then we don't live our lives. I mean that, that was a big portion of his thing is like we have to fail. We have to be uncomfortable. And if they're sitting up there and there's no way for anybody to make them uncomfortable, how do things get better?

John Dehlin [01:23:44] Exactly. Yeah. If members just assume that whatever the brethren are doing they do for a good reason, then that says don't give feedback. And if members don't give feedback, then how does the church ever have a mechanism for self improvement? Like, no, you want people saying, hey, this might be a better decision and it could save the brethren from a lot of, of harm. The only other thing I'll just add, he's, you know, Scott Gordon says unity is better than winning an argument. Then why does fair Mormon exist? You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's weird because they don't engender unity. They're divisive, they're polarizing. And some could argue that we're polarizing. All I can say is I don't want to be polarizing. My goal is not to polarize. And there's a lot that I could do to be a lot more polarizing that I intentionally don't do. But I just, I don't think Scott Gordon and Fair follows this council of valuing unity over. Over winning an argument or being polarizing. So I think he's being hypocritical there and tone deaf. And, and I, you know, he says the three most important things are faith, loyalty, and love for one another. I would say truth is also important, and also not doing harm is also important. So faith is only as good as it's based on truth and also not harming other people. And then loyalty is good unless it's dangerously loyal to an institution that's lying and harming people. So you want to be careful who you're loyal to. And yes, love for another, I think we can all agree, is what we should be driven by. So amen to that. One another. I think we all agree on that.

Meggan Hayes [01:25:34] Yeah. Because what. What is unity? That. He doesn't want unity. He wants homogeneous. He wants a homogeneous group where everyone thinks and acts and talks the same. That's not unity. Unity is being together despite there being differences, not. Not the lack of difference. So when he says unity, he doesn't mean unity, I don't think.

John Dehlin [01:25:57] I mean, it's a balance, right? You want enough agreement in a group to where the group can work together towards a common goal with. With a relative amount of efficiency. Like, you know, oftentimes I'm accused of being too liberal or, you know, whatever. Like, I think one thing that liberal groups have to always watch out for is there's so much dissent, so much individuality, that sometimes it's impossible to get anything done. There's not enough group cohesion to actually accomplish stuff. Whereas conservatives, they. They tend to value loyalty. This is all Jonathan Heights thinking from the Righteous Mind book. Conservatives tend to value authority and unity more, and sometimes that just makes conservatives more effective and efficient than liberals. So it's a balance, right?

Meggan Hayes [01:26:53] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You got me thinking. I'm going to be ruminating on that for a while.

John Dehlin [01:26:58] Yeah, well, you got me thinking, Megan. All right, what's the next slide?

Meggan Hayes [01:27:03] Okay, so this just is a little buffer between. Now we're just going to do two other clips from two different presenters that are going to give us a little flavor of some other things that happen. But it won't be as in depth as when we were listening to Scott because I went through his whole speech and pulled out a big portion. So, yeah, this next one, we should

John Dehlin [01:27:22] spend the next year responding to fair Mormon talks from this conference. Probably.

Meggan Hayes [01:27:27] I agree. I agree.

John Dehlin [01:27:29] Or new series responding to apologists. A new series on LDS on on Mormon Stories podcast. Okay, so let's go with the first clip.

Joseph Smith, Treasure Hunting, and Seer Stones

Meggan Hayes [01:27:41] Yep.

Guest [01:27:42] In my humble opinion, Joseph Smith and treasure hunting is actually. Is a thorny historical issue. And so. So I wasn't surprised they asked me to talk about it. And they asked me to cover all the major issues in 25 minutes, which is impossible of various kinds. This is actually more what village diviners do is find stuff that's lost or supposedly stolen. And buried treasure is like a subcategory of lost items that people are looking for. And we have accounts of Joseph Smith Sr. And Joseph Smith Jr. Helping people find stuff successfully. This is an interesting article from 1994 by Dan Vogel on the locations of Joseph Smith's early treasure quest. So he comes up with documentation for 18 different treasure digs. Now, he doesn't evaluate the reliability of the documentation. Some of those digs probably never happened. And yet, you know, there's probably some digs that were never documented. So we really just don't know. I'd say maybe there were about a dozen or so digs, but that's just a guess. We actually don't know. So if you're reading something that's talking about the Smiths making a magic circle and cutting the throat of a sheep or whatever, if the author's not talking about that tentatively, then, you know, you're not reading careful history. Smith and Cowdery at this time, looking back, Smith helped Cowdery on this. Smith and Cowdery this time, looking back, they're saying, okay, he was young, he was foolish, but he wasn't trained in the classical creedal of Christianity. This treasure seeking environment is actually probably better to help him have the restoration than having been trained in the Yale Divinity School.

John Dehlin [01:29:47] Oh, my gosh, Megan, what you just did there, you just took like nuggets of really fascinating stuff from an entire presentation and put them all in one clip. I'm dying. What's your analysis? I'm dying to hear.

Meggan Hayes [01:30:00] Oh, man, there was a lot there. So he, he starts out by saying treasure digging is thorny. He gives that little. I'm going to admit that just really quickly at the beginning. Then he. I wanted to hear your take on The Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith Senior were successful in helping people find stuff because I don't remember there ever being a success story. He just says that he didn't give any proof. Even if you listen to the whole talk, he's not going to give any proof that that statement is true.

John Dehlin [01:30:28] I mean, I wonder if he's talking about, like, finding water like a well, because, I mean, he was trying to put treasure digging as a subset of the finding things sort of skill set. And I know that water. Water witching, you know, was one major thing. Or, you know, I found a story of my great grandparents where they lost, like, a cow or a sheep or a goat. And they. And this is in Idaho in the late 1800s, and they end up going to a man in the. In the town. I think this is in Preston, Idaho, or Ogden area, one of the two. But my great grandpa is looking for a cow or a goat or a sheep they lost. There's a man in town who's Mormon who has a seer stone, and he says, help me find my cow. And then he has a. Not only does he help the man find a cow, but while they're looking in the seer stone, my great grandpa gets a vision that he's gonna marry these twins, and they end up being related to Elizabeth Smart. It's a whole story, but it's how the seer stone not only helps the man find his cow, but the seer stone ends up being how he convinces his wife to let him take two sisters as plural wives, the Smart sisters. Anyway, I wonder if that's what they mean, is like finding cows, finding horses, finding water. And of course, is the stone really helping them find a cow or water? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, maybe that's what he means.

Meggan Hayes [01:32:06] I don't know, because he didn't pontificate about that part at all. So then he says Dan Vogel is not good at checking his sources, which I'm sure.

John Dehlin [01:32:16] Make a clip of this. Say it again, Megan. Fair Mormon accuses who of what?

Meggan Hayes [01:32:21] Dan Vogel. Of not being careful about his sources.

John Dehlin [01:32:26] Pot, kettle, a little bit. Is there a better individual source checker about Joseph Smith in all of Mormonism?

Meggan Hayes [01:32:36] I don't think so. Dan Vogel is in the chats of every podcast that's talking about Joseph Smith throwing out truth gems.

John Dehlin [01:32:43] He is the man. It's not Richard Bushman world. It's not even John Turner. The authority in the world on primary sources about Joseph Smith, in my opinion, is Dan Vogel. Maybe it's some nameless or historian that Joseph Smith Papers project. I mean, maybe it's Robin Jensen, I don't know. But in terms of public scholars who competes with Dan Bogle for primary sources, like, that's just. I almost want to punch the guy. And I don't believe in violence, so that's just an emotional reaction. I want to punch his rhetorical self for what is such a inaccurate jab. And he's a nice guy. And I'm not encouraging violence. I'm talking about feeling strongly about how much I respect Dan Bogle and how much he should be spoken about with respect, in my opinion.

Speaker F [01:33:35] Yes.

Meggan Hayes [01:33:35] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I knew there would be a reaction to that comment. And then he says that anyone who is saying that they were, you know, cutting a sheep as part of their ritual is not really looking at it in the right way. I mean, I don't know why he's so opposed to that being part of it. I mean, there was a lot of ritual that went into these treasure digs and finding things.

John Dehlin [01:33:58] I mean, yeah, he didn't. I didn't get to hear the full talk. So I don't know what sources he's citing, but it seems like what he's saying is ex Mormon critics or critics like to include sheep throat slitting as a part of the treasure digs. Joseph Smith went on, and I have read that many, many times, so I'm surprised he's casting doubt on that. But it sounds like what he's saying is the accounts that include sheep throat slitting with Joseph Smith treasure digs can't be fully trusted. And to be fair, I don't know enough to know that to respond to that.

Guest 2 [01:34:40] Right.

Meggan Hayes [01:34:40] Where's Dan Bogle when we need him?

John Dehlin [01:34:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Dan Bogle, here's an opportunity to show who's more accurate. You or is it John Ashurst McGee? What's his name?

Meggan Hayes [01:34:53] It's on there.

Speaker G [01:34:55] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:34:55] John.

Guest 2 [01:34:57] Mark. Mark.

John Dehlin [01:34:58] Mark Ashurst McGee. Yeah. Viewers and listeners, please comment now or later in the chat or in the comments about whether or not we can safely tie sheep throat cutting to actual digs. Joseph Smith went on. I think that's a. A fun and interesting question. Maybe we should do an entire LDS discussions episode just on that.

Meggan Hayes [01:35:24] Absolutely, yeah. And then his triumphant statement, his magnum opus at the end of this speech is that treasure digging was the best preparation Joseph Smith could have had. Could have had to put him in a position to have a vision and restore God's one true church on the earth.

John Dehlin [01:35:49] Well, just as someone who's old I have one thing to say about that, and that's not his original thought. I learned that first from Richard Bushman, and it wasn't from rough stone rolling. Richard Bushman had a book about Joseph Smith before Rustone rolling called Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Early Mormonism, which he wrote, I think, as I understand it, as requested by Leonard Arrington. But it just covers Joseph Smith's family background in his early years, even before he started the church. And that was Richard Bushman's conclusion in that book that maybe God, it was just him speculating, maybe treasure digging was the way, and peep stoning and searing was the way God helped Joseph practice his later, more mature prophetic skills. And I just think that's weird that God's going to use dark folk magic skills as a way to train his prophet. But if that's true, why hasn't he done that with Brigham Young and John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff and Lorenzo Snow? Why isn't Russell and Nelson down a jokes using seer stones now to guide the church? And, you know, and why isn't God training his prophet seers and revelators now to use folk magic to help them become good prophet seers and revelators? Anyway, I think that's a silly argument and it's not even original.

Meggan Hayes [01:37:18] Right. No, I just, I. When he said it, because he went through his whole speech, that was his defining moment, was that statement. And I did chuckle a bit.

John Dehlin [01:37:27] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:37:27] But yes, the church has the seer stone. Right. Or a seer stone. Or more than one even, I think.

John Dehlin [01:37:33] Yeah, they do.

Meggan Hayes [01:37:35] Why aren't they using them? Why are they in a vault instead of in Dallin's office, ready to go? Why aren't they next to his, you know, why weren't they on top of Russell's legal pad next to his bedside table?

John Dehlin [01:37:47] You know, I think an apologist would say, how do you know? How do you know Oakes isn't using a seer stone? Maybe he is.

Meggan Hayes [01:37:55] I hope he is.

John Dehlin [01:37:59] All right. What a great clip. Wow. I can see that that's the talk we need to get into in and of itself.

Meggan Hayes [01:38:04] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:38:05] For another day.

Guest 2 [01:38:05] All right.

John Dehlin [01:38:06] What's. And should I just play the next clip or do you want to introduce it?

Meggan Hayes [01:38:08] Nope, let's just play it.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] All right, Next clip. This is great, great, great work, Megan.

Meggan Hayes [01:38:13] Thank you.

Guest 3 [01:38:13] The Book of Mormon is the central aspect to what Latter Day Saints believe. And so it always, from the beginning, begs the question of, you know, how precisely did this happen? And really, let me get I should start off. You know, the worst way to start a presentation is to tell you the answer from the beginning. And that is, we don't really know. That's because it's a miracle. And I can no more describe to you exactly the way that the prophet, seer, and revelator Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon than I can tell you precisely how it is the molecules under Jesus's feet in the water held him up as he walked across it. Miracles, by their definition, are beyond explanation. That's the reason why we believe them. We believe in miracles because they can't happen any other way than by the power of God. And so the most important part when you're studying this or any of the miracles of the restoration is to stop first and realize that what you're talking about is a miracle. So we can. We can talk about what sources people have left behind. We can explain what it is that people have said about that miracle. But in the end, the most important thing to remember is that it is a miracle. The early accounts of the translation of the Book of Mormon, the idea that words were appearing on a stone was not an embarrassment. It was the evidence that this really was from God. Because anyone can dictate a book. You might quibble about whether or not anyone can dictate something as amazing as the Book of Mormon, but people dictate

John Dehlin [01:39:52] books all the time.

Guest 3 [01:39:53] But not anyone can make words appear on a stone that is obviously coming from a supernatural power. So they see the fact.

John Dehlin [01:40:05] Holy moly. Megan,

Meggan Hayes [01:40:09] I'm so sorry. Oh, I can't help but just.

John Dehlin [01:40:13] Wow. Well, tell us, tell us why. Spell it out.

Meggan Hayes [01:40:18] Anybody can write a book. Anybody can dictate a book. But if you can. I can't even say it. If you can make words appear on a stone, that proves that it came from God.

Guest 3 [01:40:31] That.

Meggan Hayes [01:40:31] That. John, why are you making me say it? Oh, that's. I just. He's standing up there with his Mormon garb on, you know, the shirt and the tie and his authority. And he's so sure about this. And so I don't, like. I don't want to mock him.

John Dehlin [01:40:50] That logic. Just spell it out for me. What's wrong with the logic that words appearing on a stone is evidence that. That God is behind the prospect? I mean, that. That actually on its face seems logical to me. If you are a prophet and words from God are appearing on a stone and you're dictating, then that book's from God. That actually feels logically consistent to me. What's Tell me why that's humorous or

Meggan Hayes [01:41:16] not true, Then why did they hide it? Why did they hide the stone? Why did they hide that Joseph put his face in a hat? Yes. Why did leaders for so many years allow these rogue artists to depict the translation process as Joseph sitting in front of the plates and dictating to someone? If the stone was the most amazing part, if the stone in the hat has always been the miracle of the Book of Mormon, why have we been embarrassed of it for so long?

John Dehlin [01:41:50] And I could say devil's advocate. The leaders lacked faith. They felt embarrassed. They cowered to the judgments of the world. And instead of boldly proclaiming Joseph's prophetic powers, they were afraid to be mocked and scorned. And they lacked faith. And so it was their own weakness. And God lets leaders make mistakes.

Meggan Hayes [01:42:13] Yeah. So what about all the other people that saw words on the stones, John?

John Dehlin [01:42:17] Who

Meggan Hayes [01:42:19] wasn't there? Someone who got excommunicated for also seeing

John Dehlin [01:42:22] words on a stone or at least reprimanded? Right?

Meggan Hayes [01:42:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:42:26] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:42:27] So why, why is Joseph the only one that gets to have that gift if other people have it and they dictate books from a stone? I mean, I guess we have to believe them too. Or, I mean, once a stone is a miracle and the words on it, then I think the sky is kind of the limit.

John Dehlin [01:42:49] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my, my response also, in adding to what you're saying now, flipping to. To your, to your side, so to speak, is that if, if, I mean, this is obvious, if Joseph Smith was dictating literally God's word, why were there so many grammatical errors? Why were there so many anachronisms? Why was there deutero, Isaiah? Why did it say horses? Why did it say steel? Why did it say, you know, dark skin is a curse from God? Why did it have a trinitarian God such that it needed to be changed later to, to. To showing God and Jesus being separate? Why did it change white and delights them to pure and delightsome? Why has the Book of Mormon been changed thousands of times? Why does it have so many anachronisms? Why does it have so many 19th century relics if God has the power to transcend all of that and communicate a perfect book? That's my question.

Meggan Hayes [01:43:54] Well, and why in heaven's name did they have to cart the plates around and drag them across the whole of the continent so that Joseph Smith could find them so then he could not use them, but he could just have a stone and a hat? Couldn't they just have forgotten all of that.

John Dehlin [01:44:08] Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So, yeah, church leaders hit it because of the combination of all the problems with the text itself and all the changes with how kooky and supernatural it is. And by the way, it's also the fact, to answer your question, Megan, is that the stone and the hat were the exact instruments of his fraud with treasure digging. And it's folk magic and weird folk voodoo, you know, dark magic stuff. So why is God using weird voodoo, dark magic stuff for his holy enlightened purposes? You know what I mean?

Book of Mormon Translation Challenges

Meggan Hayes [01:44:49] Yeah. Because the simplest answer is that Joseph Smith was digging for treasure and help and thought he was helping people find things. And then when it wasn't working out, he went the Ron Hubbard route and started a religion because then he could find things that people couldn't prove he didn't find.

John Dehlin [01:45:08] Yeah, the Book of Mormon was a pivot from failed and illegal treasure digging, and he just brought the instruments along with him of his failed, illegal folk magic, dark treasure digging garbage, and he just brought those instruments into the Book of Mormon. Why? Because a lot of his followers believed what he told them, which was the stone had power. Joseph convinced everyone, and maybe he believed it himself that the stone had power and that's why he used it with the Book of Mormon. But do any of us believe the stone had power?

Meggan Hayes [01:45:42] No, we don't, because otherwise it would still have power.

John Dehlin [01:45:46] Yeah, yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:45:48] Unless it's like the plates and God had to take the power up to

John Dehlin [01:45:50] heaven because we don't have problems today that would warrant more power, right?

Guest [01:45:57] No, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [01:45:58] Everything's just in the world now, like child abuse. That could warrant extra help from God. Right? I'll say. I've never heard of this Jared Dermot before, but I wonder if we'll hear more from. From him in the future. The one point I wanted to make addition to the one you made is, you know, he's basically trying to frame the Book of Mormon translation as a miracle, like the molecules of water and Jesus walking. But when he, when he does that, in my view, it's a form of thought stopping. When he says, don't even try to figure out the translation of the Book of Mormon or how it came to be because it's a miracle. What he's basically saying is, is stop thinking about it. It's thought stopping, which is another cult technique, because the truth is, any smart person can figure out the main places where the Book of Mormon came from. I'll tell you, Joseph Smith's own biography, a lot of it came from the Bible. A lot of it came from Isaiah. A lot of it came from the gospels of the New Testament. A lot of it came from Jesus. A lot of it came from Protestant sermons and theology that was being debated. A lot of it came from the anti Masonic rhetoric of the day. And then a lot of it we learned from Thomas Murphy and the new book that he just came out with that we've had him on before. Native American lore probably influenced Joseph Smith. So if you add all that together and, and then you add the mound builder myth and the view of the Hebrews and, and that sort of influence, tell me if that doesn't account for 95% of where the Book of Mormon comes from.

Meggan Hayes [01:47:45] But it. So it's. They have to say it's a miracle. Well, and that's like I went to the Sunstone conference and then I just right after started listening to the fair conference. And one of the main differences I see is that at Sunstone people presented information that they found it was very source heavy. And I was left to make some decisions for myself and study further. When I listen to the Fair Conference, it feels like they're doing the offer the opposite. They're offering up a few little tidbits of sources, but they end every single speech that I've listened to thus far with, if that doesn't make sense to you, just stop looking, don't dig in more. It's a miracle. God wanted it. Listen to the brethren. Like you said, the thought stopping things, it didn't encourage me. I mean it encouraged me because I'm like, wow, I really have to dig into what these people said. But I don't think their talks were to push people to dig in more. It was to push them to dig in less.

John Dehlin [01:48:46] Yeah, that's why I call it thought stopping. And that's why it's noted by all cult experts as a technique. Because the cults use. Because if. What's the worst thing someone can do if the Book of Mormon has been framed as the keystone of our religion? Look into how it was created and what its sources are and how it likely was. Was created. By the way, you also. We should add to the, the litany of sources of the Book of Mormon. We should add William Davis's theory around Bones and you know, visions in a peep stone, visions in a seer stone. I'm forgetting William Davis's great book. Maybe the viewers and listeners can put that in the chat. But he explains how the mechanisms for how likely it was that Joseph was able to translate Or. Or dictate the Book of Mormon, you add that to all the sources. And Joseph Smith's native ability to just tell stories, that's where the Book of Mormon came from. And to tell people to not even think about it because it's a miracle is literally to try and get them from understanding it truly and then making informed decisions about their life, not based on woo and superstition and fraud, but based on reality. And listen, if you derive spiritual or psychological or emotional benefit from the words of the Book of Mormon, if you consider it Scripture, great. I've got no problem with that. If you believe that God works through these crazy ways to create scripture for you, great, great. And if you don't want to know how it's created because you just want to benefit from it and don't care about any of the details, that's also great. But what we're doing is for people that want to live in reality and want to understand the truth best, we're trying to help them figure out what's true, which fair is not doing fair, doesn't give a crap about truth. They want orthodox belief, not truth.

Meggan Hayes [01:50:53] Yes, exactly. So I have a brother who is a genius. He can literally pick up any instrument and play any song he's ever heard in his life with no music, nothing. And he taught himself how to code on an old computer in our basement when he was in, like, I don't know, sixth grade or something crazy. He didn't do well in school, so he was uneducated. We were lower to, I don't very much lower middle class, if even not lower than that, our socioeconomic status. So was he a illiterate farm boy, my brother?

Guest 2 [01:51:37] Sort of.

Meggan Hayes [01:51:38] I mean that in a way that that could describe him. Did that stop him from doing some amazing things? Absolutely. It did not. So the miracle might just be that Joseph Smith came with a lot of these qualities within himself. Right. He just had different things that he could do that other people can't quite explain. Because I can't pick up an instrument and play any song I've ever heard. I can't even explain how my brother does that. No one ever taught him. He's been able to do it since he was very small. So the miracle can just be humanity. It doesn't have to be God, and we don't have to come up with. With all of these different ways to make it be not just God, but the God of the Mormon Church who is the right and one and only God. Joseph Smith can be both. Someone who possibly lied, who's a fraud who harmed a bunch of people and someone who is a genius.

John Dehlin [01:52:36] Yeah. Love it. Thank you for that Megan. Let me just read a couple quick comments. One of my best friends, Bishop Bo is in the chat. We love you, Beau. Bo writes maybe they are using the stones to receive revelation for lawsuits, excommunications, PR 2 hour church and transgender hate. Bo, you're the nicest guy I know and I love it when you breathe the heat in your smiley, happy, positive, kind way. And by the way, you're being salty, Bo. But it's in defense of people that are being harmed. Lawsuits bad lawsuits harm people. Excommunications unjust excommunications harm people, Bad PR harms people. And trans Hate harms people. I'm not sure two Hour Church harms people. That's the only one that I just, you know, am noting there. But Bo, we love you. Thanks for chatting. Chat anytime. Really quickly, the San Delia says hit the like button. Let me just add to that. Go to mormonnews.com check it out like us and subscribe here and everywhere. And if you really value this content, please consider donating to the Mormon News podcast because I want to be able to freaking hire Megan full time. I want to make it so appealing that we could just hire Megan full time. She could do whatever she's doing and do this and we could blow the world up with really good important news and news commentary. Donate@mormonnews.com the button donate button at the top and check out our new website. We aggregate Mormon news from all over the Internet and give us your feedback as well. So yes, please like and subscribe. Dan Vogel's in the chat. We love you Dan Vogel. Dan Bogle writes, I just got home. Glad you're with us, Dan Bogle. He also writes, it's obvious that the Book of Mormon was written by an illiterate farm boy, not by God. Which is it? Look at the transcript of the Book of Mormon. God, the most powerful being in all the universe or an illiterate farm boy? You make the call. I think it's a great question, dad. Bogle, you make the call. The Grand Scuba writes that William Davis book Visions in a Seer Stone. Thank you. Grand Scuba is so underappreciated. Highly recommend. And I'll just add, I did interview William Davis on Mormon Stories about that book and Julia can provide a link to that episode. Grant Scuba also writes, the difference between the miraculous and the paranormal is endorsement of a reputable religious institution. I wonder if he would put reputable in quotes.

Meggan Hayes [01:55:30] Maybe just a noisy religious institution or one with some financial backing.

John Dehlin [01:55:36] Julia reminds us that Joseph Smith did find a feather, Megan. So please, you know, please don't underestimate Joseph's ability. Now, whether he buried the feather first so that then he could uncover it, that's another question.

Meggan Hayes [01:55:50] He didn't include that part.

John Dehlin [01:55:52] Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so many good comments. Let's go to the next slide. But we. I. It's gonna be hard to clear all these slides, Megan, but I love our analysis, so.

Meggan Hayes [01:56:03] Yeah. So that fair? That's fair.

John Dehlin [01:56:05] Okay.

Friend Magazine Article on Priesthood Callings

Meggan Hayes [01:56:05] We finished up with what we're gonna do with fair today. And this next one is an article that came out in the Friend magazine recently.

John Dehlin [01:56:13] Okay, let's go with it.

Meggan Hayes [01:56:15] So it says, your child asks, are there any girl bishops? How would you answer this question about God's priesthood, power and authority? Try this sports analogy from the July Friend. It's a great question and one some children wonder about as they look around at church. With so many different callings.

John Dehlin [01:56:32] Why does it have a man in a suit and tie playing soccer? Can you interpret that really quick for me?

Meggan Hayes [01:56:38] I think they're trying to show a bishop and mix it with the soccer

John Dehlin [01:56:41] analogy or a general authority. Oh, that's a bishop. Okay, so that's a bishop playing soccer. All right, I'm. I'm. I haven't seen this yet, Megan. So I'm. I'm at the edge of my chair. Tell us more.

Meggan Hayes [01:56:52] We'll go to the next. Okay, so this one says, but not all of them as visible as a bishop. So it's talking about callings. How can we talk about God's priesthood, power and authority in a way that is easy to understand? In the July Friend, a young inquisitive girl, Kylie asks, asks the same question and talks through it with her aunt.

John Dehlin [01:57:13] Okay, I can't hear. Can't wait to hear. Keep going.

Meggan Hayes [01:57:18] Together they compare callings in the church to Kylie's soccer team. Everyone has a different position to play, and each position matters. It's an analogy. It's an analogy simple enough for a child to understand. Kylie learns that not every question may have a complete answer, and that's okay. Heavenly Father wants us to keep asking questions and growing in our understanding what the holy.

John Dehlin [01:57:42] I mean, tell it. Tell us what you think. You're the woman of the two of us. So.

Meggan Hayes [01:57:47] Right. So if I was going to join a soccer team, I would go to a tryout and they would assess my level of ability and put me into a Certain position. They would not put me into a lower position if a. There's not even lower positions. On a soccer team, there's just different positions. But in the church, there's a hierarchy. The analogy just doesn't really fit. I mean, I can see they're trying to gear it towards kids, but on a soccer team, everyone has an equal chance before they start to prove their ability and then get put into a certain position. And in the church, that's just not true. No matter how good I am at finances, I'm not going to be a ward clerk because women can't do that. Calling.

John Dehlin [01:58:37] Yeah, like, it's. Oh, my gosh. Your. Your comments matter more than mine. But what I was thinking is, like, how does this solve the gender problem? Like, yes, yes, you can explain to a child that there's a goalie and a forward and a midfielder and a defender and a coach, but how does that explain why goalies need to only be men or why forwards only need to be men? Like, the analogy doesn't even start to explain why roles need to be gender based. Right.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:14] Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't. And that's the thing is they go through this whole thing with these cute illustrations and they make sure they're very inclusive with people of all different races and genders in there. And then they still don't explain it. They tried, I think, but comparing a soccer team to a patriarchal hierarchy is just not the same.

John Dehlin [01:59:36] Yeah, what a dumb analogy. So was that related to Fair or not?

Meggan Hayes [01:59:39] No, no. This is just. This is just the next.

Guest 2 [01:59:42] We left.

John Dehlin [01:59:42] If we left the fair discussion completely.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:44] We left. We left Fair John, because.

John Dehlin [01:59:46] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:47] Because otherwise we would be doing it for the rest of the year.

John Dehlin [01:59:54] We will. Okay, so that was an actual article in the Friend.

Meggan Hayes [01:59:57] Yes, the Friend magazine.

John Dehlin [01:59:59] And it was awful.

Meggan Hayes [02:00:01] Yes. And then I got some commentary from Latter Daily Saints about what they thought about it, and they read some comments from the Instagram page where it was published.

John Dehlin [02:00:09] Okay, so this is a Mormon Apologist on YouTube reacting to the. To that article.

Meggan Hayes [02:00:15] Yes, it's two. It's. I wrote down their names, Jackson and Austin. I think Jackson is the host of. Of the show. And then Austin was a guest.

John Dehlin [02:00:22] Jackson's been on Mormon stories. It was him and his brother Hayden and I. It was the single worst performance by apologists in the history of Mormon stories. They. I don't know, I get the sense that they think they're really helping and they're really brilliant. I don't know that I've ever Received feedback on a single episode of More damage that apologists have done than what Jackson and Hayden Paul did when they came on Mormon Stories, just because their performance was just so off putting to so many people recently. Jackson's reached out to me, by the way, to try to have a dialogue with me. And I. I told him the conditions under which I would have a dialogue with him. And it's basically he.

Guest 2 [02:01:08] He was.

John Dehlin [02:01:08] He so misrepresented things I said in that interview, after the interview, in my opinion. And then he is so misrepresented the truth around the lawsuit that I told him, until you correct your lies and smears and errors, I can't communicate with you in good faith. So he's gone silent. Jackson. Somebody send this to Jackson. I'm waiting. Brother, are you gonna. Are you gonna correct the lies and the smears that you told about me? Because if you will, and I've. And I've given you the receipts, then I'd be happy to interact with you in dialogue. But until then, you're not credible as a dialogue partner, in my opinion. But let's see what you have to say. So let's run the clip.

Meggan Hayes [02:01:53] Yep.

Speaker F [02:01:54] Initially, I. I'll be honest, and maybe it's just because I'm used to seeing a lot of too much progressive sensitivity.

Speaker G [02:02:02] Okay.

Speaker F [02:02:03] That I thought, why are we doing this? Why are we making this? I was a little upset by the end of it, though, as I worked through my thoughts. I think this was masterfully done. I think it was really, really well done.

Speaker G [02:02:13] The article, the post. Okay.

Speaker F [02:02:16] I'm still a little confused at why we have to post about it. You know, it's like all the things that we could talk about in the gospel to, like, increase. Face this and that. Instead, we focus on the things that are clearly going to spark concern on social media.

John Dehlin [02:02:33] What, Megan, what's your reaction of why are we talking about this?

Meggan Hayes [02:02:39] He's obviously never been a woman.

John Dehlin [02:02:42] That's exactly. Say more

Meggan Hayes [02:02:46] for him to. I mean, mansplaining doesn't even cover what he did just then. We're talking about it because it affects 50 of the population of your church, sir.

John Dehlin [02:03:02] Should we note decreasing as a percentage of overall membership?

Meggan Hayes [02:03:07] Yes, because the church knows that women are leaving the church faster than men. Now. Has he not seen the statistics?

John Dehlin [02:03:16] So his answer is, why are we talking about this Right.

Meggan Hayes [02:03:19] When we could just say Jesus loves us? Why are we talking about how we're harming women?

John Dehlin [02:03:27] I love it. I don't have anything to say. He's never been A woman. That. That explains that comment. He's a pretty likable guy, so I'm surprised he would say something so catastrophically dumb. But it's also saying the quiet part out loud. He's basically saying, why would we ever talk about the problems?

Meggan Hayes [02:03:43] Why do we care about this when we could be diving into this deep doctrine that we don't talk about anymore that, you know, God was once a man and we'll get our own planet someday.

John Dehlin [02:03:53] Yeah, that's so cringy. I can't believe he said that. All right, next clip.

Women and Ordination in the Church

Guest [02:03:57] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:03:58] All right, next clip.

Speaker F [02:04:00] The comments are a little unhinged and ridiculous. What I don't like about it still is we take something that could be black and white, and then we introduce a bunch of gray and leave people feeling, well, questions, all questions aren't answered and we might not know things. And it's like, well, you could have just answered the question rather than, like, then fusing it with all these feelings.

John Dehlin [02:04:25] Megan.

Meggan Hayes [02:04:26] I'm actually glad they didn't just. I mean, they absolutely could have just said, because God said so, right? Why. Why aren't there women bishops? Why aren't there girl bishops? Because God said so. I'm actually glad they didn't say that. Do I like the soccer analogy? Absolutely not. But he's summing up with the. What One of the core problems with the church is, is that there are so many members who just wanted to be black and white because it's. It's easier. When I left the church, I had to make a lot of decisions that I had never made before. I had to decide how to be a parent because I wasn't relying on, you know, the scriptures for that. And I had to decide what I was going to do in my own life, what I was going to do in my marriage, what food I was going to eat, what clothes I was going to wear. I hadn't made those decisions before because they'd all been made for me. And I don't think it sounds like he doesn't like that they're leaving that open to interpretation because he just wants them to say, because God said so. Which, as a parent, I don't even want to use that phrase with my kids. Mom, why do I have to do this? Because I said so. I don't say that because it's not helpful. I have a kid who right now really struggles doing their chores, and when they ask me why they have to do them, instead of telling them, I just say, what do you think? And guess what? They're like, well if I didn't the house we get, I don't have to tell them. It's better to leave it open, allow people to learn and to have their own opinions. It's scary for him I think though possibly to to have this be in the gray area where oof, maybe these women who make up a large percentage of our population, maybe they are on to something.

John Dehlin [02:06:17] Yeah, yeah, the church is in a real pickle because it's it risks becoming an incel church the more women leave at a higher rate than men. But if, if they let women have the priesthood, why do they excommunicate to September 6th and why did they why did God deny it from them for 200 years? Like probably could destroy the church weirdly to give women the priesthood when that might be the only way to save the church. So it's they're in a real pickle. I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions. Several good comments I want to share. Grand School writes, are there girl bishops? Here's a 500 word response where only one would suffice. Love it. Sarah Boyden writes, I crashed out on this Friend article. I love it. Dan Bogle writes, God hasn't said so. There's no scriptural basis for denying women the priesthood. Love it. Dan Bogle. Ryan Scott writes, this analogy doesn't work too well. Just ask him why the coach can only be a man and the team captain is always a man and women don't get to decide which positions they can play. Very good. Auntie Queenie writes, that's not an analogy, it's just gaslighting. Referring to the Friend article, Trevenon writes, he heard that the Paul brothers regret coming on Mormon stories. I bet they do. But it's not because of how I treated them. Because I I kept trying to tell them, I don't want to argue, I don't want to debate. I just want to hear your story. And they came loaded for bear. And I just responded to that. They have themselves to blame for how that interview went. Somebody make sure and share this with Jackson and Hayden. By the way, Daisy May writes, I don't want to see the Paul brothers back here. That's fair. Connie writes, great job John and Megan, I love you so much. We love you too, Connie. Brian Scott writes, I am a male am confused. I a male am confused why girls don't just shut up and shut up about this.

Speaker F [02:08:26] Bruh.

John Dehlin [02:08:27] Is that a great comment? I Yep, I slaughtered its reading. GXGX writes Jackson and Hayden, are dunning Kruger effect personified arrogance, not even backed up by intelligence, just fallacious reading. And you know, Paul brothers, you know, one of the. One of the things I remember most from my interview with them is when I asked them if they went to college and got their college degrees, they said not enough juice for the squeeze. Right. Going to college wasn't enough juice for the squeeze for the Paul brothers. So since you probably don't know what the dunning Kruger effect is because you didn't think college was worth the juice for the squeeze, as I understand it, it's when people's confidence goes up in inverse proportion to how much they actually learn and know. In other words, we sometimes get more and more confident and arrogant the less we know and actually spend time learning, whereas the more time we spend learning, the less competent and obnoxious we often become. That's my understanding, and I think y' all might benefit from learning more about that. I love this comment. Jabala writes, megan can scorch the patriarchy without being hateful. I. I love that comment. Okay, Megan, where do we go next in our slides?

Meggan Hayes [02:09:57] Well, there's another video from our friends.

John Dehlin [02:10:00] One more video. Let's play it.

Speaker F [02:10:02] The comments are a little unhinged.

John Dehlin [02:10:03] Okay, I think that was the last one, right? So here's the next one. There's Jackson.

Speaker G [02:10:10] When I clicked on the comment section, it says I would answer with some questions back. Does that seem right to you? Does that seem like the way Jesus wants it? Based on what you know about Jesus, what do you feel in your heart about the way it should be? And then I would tell her to trust what she feels in her heart and pay attention to those feelings.

Speaker F [02:10:32] So let's infuse injustice into this doctrinal question right from the get. As a young child. Let's turn them into. Into little therapists who have to look at everything through a fairness lens. It's. I hate it.

Speaker G [02:10:50] Well, it's just so interesting because it insinuates that this is completely not how Jesus would. Would function. Is basically saying that's what it's insinuating.

Guest [02:11:02] Right?

Speaker G [02:11:02] Does this seem right to you, like those type of leading questions? Does it with what you know about Jesus, would he do this? Right? Would he make it so there's no girl bishops? Right. And so that was a little bit.

Speaker F [02:11:15] He did actually that. That's exactly what he did.

John Dehlin [02:11:21] Holy smokes. Megan, what did you think about that?

Meggan Hayes [02:11:24] I told you that's what they want. They want to just say, because God said so. But as Dan Vogel pointed out, and actually the naked pastor has a really good cartoon that says when someone says because Jesus said so, what they mean is someone said that Jesus said so.

Guest 2 [02:11:41] Right.

Meggan Hayes [02:11:41] Because we have. There's always a filter between us and Jesus or us and God. And it's a man who wrote something down.

John Dehlin [02:11:51] Yeah. Like his confidence that it was Jesus behind women not having the priesthood. Like in all seriousness, it is, it is, it is disturbing when anybody thinks they know the mind and will of God. Like, yeah, believe your scriptures. Yeah. Believe what leaders teach you. But like, can anybody say they really know the mind and will of God with. With competence?

Meggan Hayes [02:12:20] They think they do. But I think like you've said, these are good guys, personable guys. And then they're getting on here and they're saying this stuff and they're not just saying it, they're saying it really flippantly while they are marginalizing and honestly could be harming a very large portion of the population and not just the general population, but the population of their own congregations. And why? Because they possibly believe that it's what God wants. Because they do think that they know that that's what God wants. And that's the part that really bothers me is that they have this goodness in them and it's being covered up by this confidence that God wants them to act this way.

John Dehlin [02:13:11] Yeah, yeah. If we're trying to look at. There's a critique that I think the other the guy with the mustache was trying to make, which is he doesn't think we should always view everything through a fairness lens. And you know, there's a lot of anti woke vibes there. And even AOC is saying these days woke up point one was a disaster. So I'm not like a defender of wokeism at all necessarily. Although I'd like a lot of the principles that informed that informed progressivism because I don't like harm to people and I don't. I think Jesus, if anyone stood up for the marginalized. But what it seems like he's saying is, is we can't make all our decisions in the world based on equality. He's saying fairness, but I think he means equality. And I think he's basically saying men and women sometimes have different traits and abilities and we should be able to make decisions based on other criteria than exact equality, you know?

Meggan Hayes [02:14:17] Right. But he wants it to be based on gender instead.

John Dehlin [02:14:19] Well, I mean he's saying that's what God and his prophets have decided is best, you know.

Meggan Hayes [02:14:26] Yeah, I like when I was that

John Dehlin [02:14:28] argument that maybe on average, women do certain things better than men. On average. And on average, maybe men do some things better than women. And so as a society, let's structure our society based on average competence per gender. You know, I think that's what he's trying to explore, even though he isn't able to articulate it. What do you think about that?

Meggan Hayes [02:14:54] Yeah, I mean, that could be. That's a generous reading of what he's saying. I. I don't agree that that's what we should do. I think we've done it for a long time and we tried it, and now there are a lot of men and women who are saying, this doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for me. I am a man. And so I'm supposed to be strong and gruff and hide in my feelings and go into an office all day with a suit, and it's not working for me. So I'm going to express my feelings, I'm going to paint my nails and, you know, but I'm still going to go into an office with a suit. There people are just finding that that doesn't work for them. And I think fair. In my house, we say we don't do fair because we do try to lean towards equity. And that's what it is. It's more about an individual person, you know, taking each person on their own. So, yeah, can. Can we do that for the whole world all at once? No, but I can do it here for me and for my kids and for the people I come in contact with.

John Dehlin [02:16:05] Yeah, I love it. Thank you, Megan, for sharing that. Several really good comments. And I know I'm taking time, but these comments are great. If Grant Scuba has a competitor for my favorite commenter on the ex Mormon Internet, it's Team Poseidon. So I'm so glad Team Poseidon is in the comments. And he writes everything in the church boils down to some variation of quote. Jesus told me to tell you, fill in the blank. But more often than not, they convert that into quote. Jesus said, fill in the blank. In other words, I mean, first of all, we have to realize that we don't know what Jesus or God actually said or thinking. All we know is what they wrote. So there's all sorts of distortion between whether they exist or not, what they actually did say, and what the prophets actually wrote down, and then how it got translated to us. But Stephen Poseidon's saying it's even worse than that because then we make interpretations on what we think the words say and Then we actually, from those interpretations, say that we know what God and Jesus think and said. So it's just so many layers and filters of inaccuracies and bias and preference. That's a brilliant quote. Team Poseidon, please join us every episode. Line Scratchers. I hope that's who I think it is. Line Scratchers writes, do these guys believe that Jesus instituted the priesthood ban? Genuine question. Yeah. If they know that Jesus didn't want women to hold the priesthood today, do they know that God didn't want black people to hold the priesthood back then? Because surely the First Presidency said it was doctrine back then. So, I mean, these guys don't even know where their own rear end is in terms of making authoritative statements. And they're young. They didn't even go to college. Half these guys. You know what I mean?

Guest 3 [02:18:07] Right?

Meggan Hayes [02:18:07] Right. At their age, I believed similar things.

John Dehlin [02:18:10] Yeah. Really quickly. Yes. Please read Mormon Enigma. Megan, so there's a vote for you to do the audiobook the Santellus writes. So we use our feelings to know if the church is true, but not to analyze a question. These guys are dumbass. I don't like to mock people, but he's making a good point. Jabala, this isn't writes. This is an incredibly brilliant compilation. Dear Megan. So this is a shout out to the good work you did in putting together clips really quickly. Drift S4Z writes, have they done a podcast on Emma Smith or the Moon Sisters? I have written a brilliant episode on the Moon Sisters and William Clayton and Joseph Smith. I. I want to show it to Julia. I want to cover it on LDS discussions. I. I think the Moon Sisters story is a smoking gun and I'm dying to do an episode about it. So, Julia, please make me make this happen, because I. I already had the episode fully written. I've got slides designed on it and I'm. I'm so glad. Drift. And others see why that's such an important story. The St. Elliot writes, I couldn't watch the Jackson the Paul Brothers episode. I understand somebody else wrote. Javala writes, you were so good to them, John. I actually think I was good to the Paul Brothers, even though they're going to claim when they look stupid that it's because I mistreated them. I think they. They managed to look stupid on their own.

Meggan Hayes [02:19:47] Right. Despite your attempts. Because I listened to that and I was actually super frustrated with how nice you were being to them. At the same time, I was like, I know why he's doing it. And I was applauding you. But I was like, john, call him out. But you didn't.

John Dehlin [02:20:01] I don't like to mistreat my guests.

Meggan Hayes [02:20:03] You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [02:20:04] I just don't. All right. Is it. Did we already play this clip? Let me see if this is a clip we just played this one.

Speaker G [02:20:13] It says I would answer, not yet, but there could be. Because we are a church of continued revelation and ongoing restoration, we can ask new questions and receive new answers as we have done before. For now, all of us can seek out ways to listen and include women more in church. Then this is another one with 260 likes. Okay. Says, I appreciate this effort, but it doesn't fully help and would leave me with more questions. Why would gender be a precluding factor for what position we all play on a soccer team? You play the position you are best suited to based on skill or, in some cases, lack thereof. A good coach will push you to grow, not because of predetermined conditions like sex. What is it about women that inherently makes them less suited for certain positions on the field?

Speaker F [02:21:03] When's the last time you watched women's soccer? Jackson? I got a quote from Elder Renlund that I wrote down here. He says the reason for asymmetry between men and women regarding priesthood office ordination has not been revealed. And then he says that any reason given that you've heard is speculation.

Speaker G [02:21:23] Also, anyone that understands the calling of a bishop, are there women out there that are saying, you know what? With everything that I'm involved in, you know what? I really just need. I need to be a bishop.

John Dehlin [02:21:36] Wow. Megan, please.

Meggan Hayes [02:21:38] Okay. They haven't been women, and they have not ever heard of or watched Abby Wambach play soccer back when she played soccer. And not only did she play soccer, but she fought for women's soccer players to get equal pay to men's soccer players because they work just as hard.

John Dehlin [02:21:57] How in the world does he think he's doing himself any favors by. By saying that women's soccer is lame?

Meggan Hayes [02:22:04] I don't know. I've literally been to women's soccer games. We live not far from a stadium where they play, and we take our son who. Who loves soccer and he loves their games.

John Dehlin [02:22:13] No, but, I mean, yes, it's an unfair. But it's also a stupid comment to make if you're trying to make the church look good, to say that women's soccer is lame. What a stupid thing for an apologist to say, right?

Meggan Hayes [02:22:30] He just opened his mouth and let it come right out. Like, what world does he live in where that is what he wanted to say publicly.

John Dehlin [02:22:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And line scratchers is my. My brilliant nephew, Arthur Hatton. So I'm really happy to know Arthur's listening. What do you think about the. The idea that the reason for asymmetry between men and women, Megan, it just has not yet been revealed.

Meggan Hayes [02:23:00] It's speculation to just throw God onto the bus anytime they don't want to own up to something. They just drive the bus right up and they push God out there and they hit the gas pedal like it's just a cop out. And, you know, I. There was this talk that I used to have bookmarked on my phone when I had the LDS Tools app. And it was basically a guy saying, people ask me these hard questions and I didn't know how to answer them. So I said, focus on what you do know. And I had that ready. Because anytime somebody said something in church about we don't know this yet or. And it's confusing and I want to know the answer, I'd be like, oh, I have the answer. I'm. You just focus on what you do know. Just don't look at this other stuff. And it's that same line of thinking where we can't look at the stuff we don't know about because it creates this discomfort in us. So we're just going to focus on these things that are easy or, you know, comfortable. They feel safe to us, and we're gonna sit in our little bubble and we don't have to look at anything else because a prophet who speaks to God said, we just don't know.

John Dehlin [02:24:17] Yeah. And also, like, let's. Let's pull back our conversation about the Seer Stone, right? Like, God can tell us that a curse with dark skin was made because of wickedness. Why can't God tell us why women were deemed not a good fit for priesthood leadership? And if current prophets, seers, and revelators can't get God to come clean about that, why don't they freaking go get the Seer Stone and use that? Because clearly they don't have the access Joseph did to God because God was happy to give explanations about bigotry back in the early 19th century. So why can't they get an explanation from God? The book of the book, the Doctrine and Covenants says go sell a copyright in Canada. It says Joseph Smith was able to say that a set of bones was Zelf, the white Lamanite. Like, Joseph could look at papyri and say that they were from the hand of Abraham. Why can't modern prophets and revelators find out from God one of the most important questions of all, which is why half of his children have been denied leadership opportunities. Why in the freak can't prophets find that out from God? Use the freaking seer stone if you can't figure it out without one. But what about this idea that, that women don't want it? Megan, that's the, that's the biggest thing of all is that, and maybe it's true. In fact, I don't want to be a Mormon bishop. So I, I wouldn't begrudge a woman if she's so busy and stressed out that she doesn't want to be a bishop. But as a woman, what do you think about that argument? That women don't want it, so stop talking about it.

Meggan Hayes [02:26:09] There are a lot of women, Mormon women who don't want to be a bishop because they know deep down that if they became a bishop, it would just add to their level of responsibility that they already have, that they are already running a household, maybe possibly alone, even if they're married, possibly working part or full time, doing all of the emotional labor of doctor's appointments for their kids and soccer practices. And if they became a bishop, they, they're pretty certain that those responsibilities wouldn't change at all. In a system that would be ready for women to become bishops, men would have to be willing to take on some of those responsibilities of the emotional labor of running a home. And there are still a lot of men in the church who go to work and they do their callings, and that is the end of the help that they give. They might throw in a father's blessing right before school or pick who gets to say the prayer at dinner time over the food. But when a man becomes a bishop, then it's okay if he abandons his family to sit down with the members. If a woman becomes a bishop, I think they know it wouldn't be okay for her to do that. So she would just have twice the work and the other part of the load would not be helped out with.

John Dehlin [02:27:54] Brilliant. Brilliant. I, I mean, again, this is, I'm. I'm reiterating a question I asked earlier. Well, if I had to try to put on. I've been caffeinated today. If I had to put on my reasonable, good faith hat about church leaders. I really think what they think is, and this is in the proclamation on the family, on average, because of the way the world's structured, men are gonna. I mean, just because of the way that that compensation is unfair. Men versus women. Men are going to be able to be better providers overall than women. So let's have them be the breadwinners if someone's got to be the breadwinner. And women's personality. Women's personalities are better suited for child rearing than men. And we've got to have lots of babies because God wants lots of spirits to come down, and God wants a big Mormon church. And so we've got to have lots of babies. And so let's just. Let's go with role assignments that are catered to the average abilities of the genders. And that's just a good division of labor. In my American Heritage class, there was this economics exercise. One guy can do, you know, there's coconuts and palm leaves, and one guy can do 10 coconuts and five palm leaves, and the other guy can do five coconuts and three palm leaves. How should the labor be divided? And the answer is, have the guy who's good at palm leaves do palm leaves and have the guy who's doing coconuts do coconuts. And then you trade, and there's more wealth created than if both people are trying to do both palm leaves and coconuts. That's an American Heritage assignment. So I think that's what they're saying is we need a lot of babies. Let's just have women do the babies. And we need homes to make money to pay for all the babies. So let's have men go out and make the money to pay for all the babies. I think that's. I think that's literally as sophisticated as it probably is at its core.

Meggan Hayes [02:30:01] Yeah, I agree. I think you're right. I think you're right. I just don't think that that works for everybody. I mean, I've already said this. It just doesn't work for everybody. And women, as long as the labor of the home is shared, can still have babies and be a breadwinner. They can still do that. But we. I mean, I was not taught that that was an option. And now that women are finding out that it's an option, then they can decide, is that what I want to do? Does my partner support me in that? And how are we going to work it out together? Because if the entire load of the family is shared, then like you said, the people who do the palm leaves can do the palm leaves, and the people who do the coconuts can do those. Once they decide whose best is that. But they're not showing up saying, I can only do palm leaves, because before I was Born. That's what my parents were taught.

John Dehlin [02:31:02] Yeah. And I'll just add, borrowing from another theme from today, it's one thing if a church says, hey, we kind of think that men might be best suited for this track a. And, you know, for. For providing, and women might be best suited for child rearing, but make your own decision. You know, figure out what's best for you personally. It would be one thing if a church did that, and that would be a lot more reasonable than maybe what we have now. But it's another thing to say, hey, women, God says you should not work outside the home, and it's evil if you do. So shut up, close your mouth, make babies, and don't even ask these questions. Which is what the history of Mormonism has been. It's to teach women it's evil to work outside the home. You don't need an education. Make babies and shut up and get married. And that's a very different thing than saying, we recommend this path, we think this past is best, but make your own decisions based on what's best for you. They're invoking God to just take choice away from women.

Meggan Hayes [02:32:12] And if you really, really want women to stay home and for there to be one breadwinner, which is very hard in the economy that we live in today, then put supports to make that happen. Have daycare centers at your churches during the week when they're sitting empty, that are subsidized, because we know that tithing could subsidize that just as much as it can subsidize byu. If you want women to be able to have a lot of babies, you've got to make it happen. You've got to be able to find a way for them to support them, because I was told to, and this is still said to have the big family come what may just do it. And it was really hard to be finishing up my bachelor's degree pregnant with my third child while my husband was a year away from finishing his up. And people don't want to do that anymore. And I support that 100%. They don't want to suffer in the same way that we did. And I'm okay with that. I think it's wise for them to slow down and get a degree and figure out what they want to do before they get married and have a huge family, because the church is going to tell you to do it. And then when you do, and it's hard, in my experience, they weren't there to help me.

John Dehlin [02:33:38] Amen. Yeah, I. I've how many Mormon Stories episodes involve women whose husbands made bad decisions and then they're. They find themselves divorced, without an education, without a career, with a bunch of kids, and they're trying to figure out how to rebuild their life because they follow the church's advice for them, didn't follow what they felt was right inside. And then because men didn't step up and do their jobs, you know, and women fail too, but men often fail in their jobs, leading women, Mormon women particularly, as the collateral damage. And I'll just say, finally, the church is like clearly hitching itself to this. Women stay, women make babies, and the church needs to grow. But check out the demographics in 2026. Even Mormon women are getting married less and having less babies.

Meggan Hayes [02:34:33] Go to the next slide.

Declining Marriage Rates at BYU

John Dehlin [02:34:34] Which is exactly what the next slide is about. But I'm just saying like that this is a horse. You have problems Church, if you're going to hitch your. Yourself too. So let's go to the next slide.

Meggan Hayes [02:34:46] Yep. This is from the Salt Lake Tribune. Marriage rates at BYU are declining. Here's how the LDS school is stepping in to play Cupid.

John Dehlin [02:34:56] Okay, keep going.

Meggan Hayes [02:34:58] So this is a graph that shows in fall of 2021, BYU Provo, 25% of the students were married. And then in fall of 2025, it went down to 17%. So that was in four years at BYU. Idaho Rexburg in Rexburg, Idaho it was a little bit less. It went from 22% in 2021 to 20% in 2025, but still a decline. And then the graph at the bottom, how BYU campuses compare is that the national average of college age students ages 19 to 23 is 4% are married. Oops, sorry. Siri got involved there. From my watch, I'm not sure why. So even though it's declining, they are well above the national average.

John Dehlin [02:35:48] Five times, five to six times.

Meggan Hayes [02:35:51] But it is going down. And this, they, they find this incredibly worrisome.

John Dehlin [02:35:55] It used to be five to six times greater. So the merit. Let me get this straight. The, the, the marriage rates at BYU Provo in Idaho used to be five to six times the national average. And now it's, now it is four to five times the national average. And byu, BYU Provo is. Has declined significantly. And that's why Greg Matson of Quick is so critical to byu. He just, he's just so mad that in his view BYU's become so woke. And this is like, this is like candy for Greg Matson. He's gonna, he's gonna love the statistic In. In terms of how much he dislikes the culture at BYU Provo, I think he'll be much more happier with BYU Idaho. But it is. Those trends are disturbing because if BYU Provo continues at that rate of decline from 25% to 17% to, you know, potentially, what, 15% or 10%, that doesn't bode well for the church. So what do you make of these rates, Megan?

Meggan Hayes [02:37:10] Well, like I said, like, whatever you want. Yeah.

Guest 2 [02:37:12] Well,

Meggan Hayes [02:37:15] both women and men, it. But a lot. And. And they've talked about this when it comes to, like, they're sending out the women on missions earlier now because women are deciding, I just want to wait. I want to get a degree. I. I saw my mom at 40 years old. My. My dad was no longer in the picture for whatever reason, and she didn't. Like you said, she didn't have a degree. And we struggled as a family. And I just. I don't want that. I don't want that for myself. So I'm gonna go all the way through school before I get married, and I just want to have more stability, and that is hard for the church. So they're like, well, let's send them on a mission, and let's encourage them to meet their eternal companion on a mission. Because once we get them into school, then they start thinking about things and they find something they love, and then they just want to go all the way through school, and it's this slippery slope into, you know, people who don't have families with five to 10 kids anymore.

John Dehlin [02:38:16] Megan, I want to do a thought exercise with you, and I don't know the answers here, but, you know, we've talked about prophets and seer stones and how prophets are supposed to see around corners and know what God wants or whatever. Let's go through a thought exercise.

Meggan Hayes [02:38:29] Okay?

John Dehlin [02:38:30] 50 years ago, Mormon women were not encouraged to serve missions. And if they did, they had to go when they were 21. And they were not really encouraged to get educations or degrees, but instead were encouraged to just have lots of babies. Why in the world back then did God think it was important for women to not really serve missions, but if they do, to wait till they're 21? Why do you think back then, God felt like that was really important, whereas it's less important now and then? I'm going to flip the question and talk about now, but, like, why was that really important back then? Because the ages could have been the same, and men and women could have been told to get the same education and careers and degrees back then, but they weren't. And again, at the same ages. So what's your theory on why Mormon God didn't want that back then?

Meggan Hayes [02:39:31] Well, because Mormon God just followed the, what was going on socially in the US in general. Women 50 years ago in the church and in the United States were mostly stay at home moms and the men were the breadwinners. So if you have a church and you're sending out missionaries, you don't want to send someone on a mission who should be a stay at home mom. The, the, the boys and the men, their priority was spreading the gospel, coming home, getting an education, and then marrying women. And honestly, you'd see that age difference. Right. A lot of people in my generation and the generation above married men who were two years older than them because they were getting out of high school the same time that those men were getting home from their missions. But yeah, and so Mormon God was like, I don't want people of color to have the priesthood because that's what society has been doing for a long time. And I want women to stay home and have lots of babies because that's also just what we do. And the men wear suits and they go to work with a briefcase and then they wear those same suits to church. I don't think it is too much more complicated than that. That was just what they knew.

John Dehlin [02:40:50] Okay, so I mean, what you're saying is that Mormon God bases what he wants for men and women based on society, which I think Mormons believing. Mormons would say it's the opposite, that God defies the popular cultural norms. But let's just say whatever God felt was right back then was what God wanted. Doesn't God still want women making lots of babies and men being the providers? Because that's what the proclamation on the family says. So why would it change between then and now if God still wants the same thing?

Meggan Hayes [02:41:26] Because if Mormon women leave the church, then those babies they have. Yes. Then those babies they have don't count. So they need them to go on a mission like these young men are and really solidify their testimony so that when they do have babies, they hopefully have them quicker than society and they have them within the church. So Mormon God changed his mind because the babies don't count if the women aren't in the church. So how do we keep them in? What is the best thing we can do to keep these women in the church?

John Dehlin [02:42:06] Yeah. Yeah. So I, I think you're right. I think the day, you know, the church didn't come out five, 10 years ago and say we're losing women in droves, so we need to lower the age for women and encourage all women to serve missions, whereas we didn't encourage that before. But now that we're getting the data, it's clearly you're right that church leaders said, holy crap, we're losing our women. What do we do? Let's encourage them all to serve missions and eventually lower the age because maybe we won't lose them as fast. Which of course they don't actually change doctrine and policy because heaven forbid, you know, but also they have changed garments and made garments more female friendly and they have changed the temple ceremony to make, you know, the temple ceremony more female friendly. So I think clearly the brethren have known for a decade or two they were hemorrhaging women and they've been slowly making these quiet changes to be more woman favorable without ever telling us the reasons why, because they noticed the hemorrhaging. But now that we can have modern presentism as our guide, now we can see what they've been doing. They've been changing garments, changing the temple ceremony, and changing mission norms because they've been hemorrhaging women. And now we see it really clearly. That makes all the sense in the world. Last question about this, Megan. I know we've got those other slides. Is it going to work? Is lowering the mission age and encouraging all women to serve missions, is that going to slow their disaffection from the church?

Meggan Hayes [02:43:53] I think it will to an extent, certainly. Because missions can be a very defining, you know, year and a half to two years for young people where it really sets them in a course. However, the Internet and information and critical thinking aren't going to disappear. So I, I think it's. I think it's a little band aid for a while, but I don't think that women are going to, as a whole, continue to sit back and allow themselves to be treated as second.

John Dehlin [02:44:41] Yeah, the more the church moves to accommodate women, I think the more women expect to be treated equally. So I think that's going to be a problem over time. And then also what I've heard is that the more women who serve missions and they're led by their zone leader, their male zone leaders, and male district leaders, and a male mission president and see how dumb and inefficient men and boys can be, it actually does the opposite. It makes them feel like, why are these boys and men my leaders when I can be a really effective leader? And it actually grows in Mormon women a Concern about the disparity and a desire to be a leader. And in that sense, having Mormon women serve missions could actually have the opposite effect and accelerate their dissatisfaction with the unfair and disparity in treatment and make them want to leave faster.

Meggan Hayes [02:45:44] Well, and the church is also showcasing and championing women who didn't follow the path that I was told to follow. I mean look at Camille N. Johnson. Isn't she a lawyer? I did not see representation in that way when I was a young girl and a teenager in the church. And so yeah, they're, they're shooting themselves in the foot a little bit by being more open and having representation of women who are strong and powerful. Are there still limitations? Obviously, because men ultimately make the decisions, but it is a slow, steady stream. And like you said, I mean when I was 18, I didn't want my peers of boys, men telling me what to do because I was like 18 year old girl and 18 year boy. I felt like I was leaps and bounds beyond some of them. So yeah, going on a mission at that age I think would have been hard for me to have because it is. It's your peers and you know, there's the mission president, but the assistant to the president and the zone leaders, they're all, I mean we say men but they're 18 year old. They're right on the cusp of that in between space and yeah, their brains are not fully formed.

John Dehlin [02:47:07] Yeah. Couple comments. John Cranach writes, prophets that don't prophesy, seers that don't see, revelators that don't reveal, they react. And slowly, decades behind the times, that is. It's hard. I mean I'll just to try and be fair. I think there is a value in having conservative leaders that don't just that preserve the good of the past and don't just change all the time in a reactive way. We need seasoned, stable leadership and structure. And it's not good for humans to have things changing rapidly all the time. So there's a value to leaders that move slowly and there's also a problem if they move too slowly. So it's, it's tough. But what I can say for sure is that prophet sir and Revelator don't mean what I thought they, what I was taught to think they mean in a Mormon context. Dory Moser writes, I want to put that in a T shirt quote. Use the freaking seer stone if you can't figure it out. Close quote. We need to have a, we need to up our merch game. You've got a merch game. I don't have a merch game. Megan, we need to upper merch game.

Women Serving Missions and Marriage Pressures

Guest 2 [02:48:27] All right.

John Dehlin [02:48:28] The St. Ellius writes, I think it will backfire. Meaning encouraging women to serve missions at a younger age. When women see the mission, men rm. When women see that men RM are just like them, the mystic will be gone. Can you interpret that? Because I think there's some typos there.

Meggan Hayes [02:48:47] Yeah, well, when I was graduating from high school, returned missionaries were, you know, kind of like Hercules coming home from the battlefield. They were so knowledgeable and so spiritual. And now if women go out with them, they're like, like, oh, turns out they're just doofuses. Yeah, they're just dudes who do stupid stuff. And like, I don't know, my husband cut down a Christmas tree on his mission that I don't think he was supposed to cut down, you know, past curfew and videoed it. I mean, they just do dumb stuff. Yeah. The, the mystique will be gone. The, the power that the, the priesthood mystery of it all will be gone.

John Dehlin [02:49:31] And I don't mean to hate speech on men. Like, I don't like self loathing. Men do good and bad things. Women do good and bad things. And, and we need both. And we need both to do better.

Meggan Hayes [02:49:45] Yes, absolutely. Like, my life has never been so joyous is when my husband and I truly became partners. Right where we stopped fighting against all those things and just said, what is it that I'm good at? What is it that you're good at? How can we do that together?

John Dehlin [02:50:01] I love it. Yeah. All right, let's go ahead, talk about some more babies. Go ahead.

Meggan Hayes [02:50:07] Church authorities want more members to marry, and it's hardly a new message. In 2023, Apostle Dallin H. Oaks, now the faith's president, shared in a worldwide devotional that marriage is central to the purpose of mortal life and what follows. Earlier this year, Oaks said he hoped lowering the minimum missionary age to 18 for young women would lead to Latter Day Saints marrying sooner. That is part of the Lord's plan to overcome the tendency of waiting until the late 20s to marry. He said, I think we will see a reduction in the age of marriages for Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [02:50:37] Is that good or bad that they're just trying to get women married younger?

Meggan Hayes [02:50:42] I think it depends on the person. Some people thrive after they get married young and some don't. I just think the problem is that they're trying to tell everybody what to do when it's so individual. That's the thing. I mean, I. When Oaks looks out and says that to everyone, does he really think that that's good for every single person in his church? I think maybe he does, but I don't agree. Financial stability is a huge indicator in whether a marriage is going to survive. Yeah, it, it has sometimes less to do with whether people are compatible and good, a good match. If they're not financially stable, it can cause problems that don't need to be there.

John Dehlin [02:51:27] Yeah. And I'll just say, I don't mean to just quote Margi without the, the science behind it, but Margi tells me, and she's very well read and she reads evidence based, research based stuff, and she says that marriage satisfaction and married success is positively correlated with age of marriage. In other words, people that get young, married younger tend to have lower marriage satisfaction and lower marriage success rates. And people who wait to get married and get married older tend to have healthy, happier marriages that end up being more successful.

Meggan Hayes [02:52:13] I actually read a lot of studies about that this week when I was preparing for one of my news broadcasts. And then this one, and something else that correlated strongly with successful marriages was finishing a college degree. So people who just finished high school had a higher rate of divorce than people who had finished their degree. But if they went to college and never finished, their divorce rates were also higher. So that correlation with education and not just starting it, but finishing it, which was really interesting to me. But, and, and that's why, like, when women get married young in the church, a lot of times they don't finish their degrees. They get halfway through, find something they're passionate about, and then they set it aside and they might never go back to it.

John Dehlin [02:53:04] Yeah. And this is an interesting thing because in some sense Oaks has a conflict of interest because what's good for the church, which is I, I assume he thinks that it's the best thing for the church for men to work and women to stay home and have lots of babies and to get married young. That may not be what's best for the individuals involved. But he's not gonna. If he has to choose between giving advice for what's good for the individuals involved versus what's good for the church. Do we have any, do we have to speculate as to where, where he's going to go?

Meggan Hayes [02:53:37] No. I mean, he's pretty open about his thoughts on that.

John Dehlin [02:53:42] Yeah. So that's, that's, that's interesting. I've never thought about that before. The conflict of interest to being a prophet. Anyway. So what's going on at byu.

Meggan Hayes [02:53:54] So this is at BYU and BYU Idaho. I think they actually also do them at BYU Hawaii. So enter university Organized Date nights, one of several singles centered social events at the faith's educational institutions. The relatively new date night events introduced since at least 2024, the Church News reported, typically include free food and activities like break the ice games. So they're engineering dates so that hopefully they can curb this unwanted trend of people waiting too long to get married. They're like, if we can just get, get them to fall in love.

John Dehlin [02:54:28] I mean the church is either desperate or just very proactive. Right.

Meggan Hayes [02:54:32] It could be a combo.

John Dehlin [02:54:33] Yeah, let's. So what are the. You got some quotes from people's experiences.

Meggan Hayes [02:54:38] Yeah. May Evans, a rising senior studying computer science at BYU Provo, said she attended her first school hosted date night without a date in mind. I was asked on a date, but it was by someone I wasn't interested in, she said. So I just to want went with my roommates. For Evans, dating so far in Provo has felt more defined by pressure than encouragement. Encouragement is positive, she said. But I don't think pressure is for Evans. She is unmarried, not because she isn't ready, but because she hasn't found the right person. She said she believes socializing more may help, but she also is focused on her studies, her friends and the rest of her life. Okay, I just love that.

John Dehlin [02:55:17] What do you love about it?

Meggan Hayes [02:55:19] Because she is defying everything that I was taught and things have softened a little bit. But she's saying I haven't found the right person. So I'm not just gonna marry someone that I met two weeks ago at a date night. She went there without a date, which I think is amazing. And she said, I'm focused on my studies and my friends and the rest of my life. I've been got time. I've got plenty of time. And I tell this to my kids all the time. I don't have a single child who has left high school and gone straight to college. They are all being very successful doing it different ways. And I always tell them that's okay because I finished my bachelor's degree when I was pregnant with my third child. Like, whatever you want to do, it's gonna be there. If school is what you want to do, school's gonna, it's not going anywhere. You can do it now, you can do it five years from now because hopefully your life is going to be very long and you're going to have opportunities for all that marriage. It might get Harder to find people, I guess, when you leave byu. But if you're someone who wants to get married, hopefully that's something that could be an option for you in the future. She, this May Evans is just that it's not her main focus right now. And I think it's good. She seems a lot more balanced.

John Dehlin [02:56:39] Yeah. Well, my quick takeaway is that there is no way on earth if I were, I have, I have daughters and. But if I were starting over as a parent and raising kids today, there's no way on earth that I wouldn't encourage my daughter or daughters to get as much education as they can and to build as stable and as solid of a career as they can. But before getting married and having kids, or at least before having kids. And the reason why is because the men and the Mormon church are not strong enough foundations to build your life on. We now know that over half of the Mormons raised in Mormonism in the United States leave the church and that a mixed faith marriage destabilizes a marriage. And that when your marriage, all of a sudden you're leaving the church or one of you is leaving the church, it could be catastrophic for a family and for a marriage. And if the marriage is based on religion, religion is no longer a good bet to base your marriage on because the religion can disappear and it is disappearing at a heavily increasing rate. So don't base your marriage on religion. Is the first thing I would tell my daughters, because it's not a rock. Don't. The wise man builds his house upon a rock and religion is not a rock to build your marriage on anymore. And then the second thing is men aren't a rock to build your marriage on anymore because men, no human can be relied upon to make it so. You don't need to get an education and a career to be able to support yourself. And then the final thing I'd say is, you know, the church taught me to say woe unto those who call good evil and evil good. I would never recommend to my daughter to get married to someone without having sex with them first. And I know that that's a radical evil thing to say for a Mormon, but I've seen so much pain and suffering from couples that weren't sexually compatible. Marrying someone without knowing that you have sexual compatibility with them is not building your house upon a rock. So I think some of the recommendations the church gives its youth are antithetical to their well being.

Meggan Hayes [02:59:26] Because who, whose best interest does the church have in mind?

John Dehlin [02:59:32] The church.

Meggan Hayes [02:59:33] Yes. And they will choose that. If they have to make a choice, they will choose themselves every time.

John Dehlin [02:59:39] Yeah. It's like pawns in a war. It's like a war machine. You can sacrifice the peasants on the front lines because the general's kids are at university and the generals are sitting way back, you know, way back behind, safely in the bunker. Right. Like, let. It's just this idea. There's the elite ruling class that can tell the masses what to do. And. And the masses can be sacrificed for the good of the institution and the wealth and the power of the people in charge. But the collateral damage are the common people, the members who are taking the advice from the leaders, who have a conflict of interest because they're looking out for the interests of themselves. The powerful, the rich, the ruling class, and the institution. They're not looking after the interests of the individuals. And I see that here in the church's advice to its young people about marriage and children.

Meggan Hayes [03:00:42] Yes. Yes. Because Dallin Oaks can sit in his penthouse apartment with the best medical care, with a private jet that he gets to travel around in and tell people, just get married young and have kids. And when they do that, I said, this is just a bit ago, and things don't work out well, and they're really hard. And then that couple goes to the bishop and says, we can't afford to feed our kids. And the bishop tells them, well, we told you to be self sufficient. Dallin is not having those conversations with people who did what he said and are now struggling to make ends meet. And he is not giving up his penthouse to buy them groceries.

John Dehlin [03:01:36] No, he's taxing him at 10%. So the little income they have, the church is going to take 10% of that.

Meggan Hayes [03:01:41] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:01:43] For life. Megan, I'm getting a lot of grief about wearing a BYU hat. So just to cool things down a little bit, and since we're talking about problems at byu, I went ahead and switched to my George Mason hat. Thanks to John Turner. No, I love byu. Go Cougars. I love. I'm most. I'm mostly an Aggie. I also love the Utes and the

Meggan Hayes [03:02:04] Wildcats, but I just like to watch football. I don't even care who the team is.

Mormon Beauty Queen and Conservative Beliefs

John Dehlin [03:02:11] All right, let's talk about the. The Mormon beauty queen.

Meggan Hayes [03:02:14] All right. Brittany Boltenhouse of Duplin county was crowned miss North Carolina, USA in June of 2026. So just recently. Recently, but two days ago, she was stripped of her title. The Miss USA organization says Bolton House did not uphold their organization's standards, but she believes her Mormon faith And outspoken conservative views may have played a role in the decision.

John Dehlin [03:02:38] Okay, how do we know what she actually said?

Meggan Hayes [03:02:42] Well, if you go to the next clip, it's a video of a little news spot. They talk about it in depth a little bit more.

John Dehlin [03:02:48] All right, let's roll it. I'm excited. But first, a little background. The Ms. USA organization announced yesterday they stripped Bolton House of her title as Miss North Carolina USA after reports of problematic past social media posts emerged. The organization said the decision was based on conduct that happened over an extended period of time and that it was made jointly with Bolton House. We're glad you're joining us here for Eyewitness News tonight.

Speaker G [03:03:09] I'm Steve Daniels.

Meggan Hayes [03:03:10] And I'm Lauren Johnson. Today, Bolton House broke her public silence in an interview with the Carolina Journal. In that exclusive interview, she claimed her Miss North Carolina USA title was taken from her due to her conservative Christian beliefs. She went on to say she is a proud Mormon woman and won't compromise her faith. I believe and think I was stripped from my title because of my political stance and my belief system as a conservative Christian woman. Okay, tell me more about that. Bolton House said losing the title was a huge shock, but it also also may have been, quote, a blessing in disguise, adding, every teenager has made a mistake.

John Dehlin [03:03:47] Whoa. Interesting. What are your thoughts, Megan?

Meggan Hayes [03:03:50] Well, it took me a while to dig up what she actually said because a lot of the news reports didn't say that. So if you go to the next slide, I won't read it because it's really bad, but we can at least just allude to it and people can look at it.

John Dehlin [03:04:01] Okay, here we go.

Meggan Hayes [03:04:03] So the old tweets. This was from a different news source. Open use of the N word and toxic behavior under the handle Sosa the Stallion linked to her earlier identity as Sosa B. Alondra. Bolton House posted a series of tweets between 2017 and 2019 that leave little room for interpretation. In one December 2019 post, she wrote, N word, I'm toxic, AF I don't care. LOL. And there was a whole string of. Of text messages or posts. They were actually public posts, and I didn't include them because they were all along that same vein.

John Dehlin [03:04:37] Okay, so what do you think about this defense of calling bigotry? They're just. First of all, that she's not saying it's bigotry against Mormons. She's actually hiding behind the shield of bigotry towards conservative Christians writ large. That's an interesting turn, right?

Meggan Hayes [03:04:56] Yeah. I don't know why. I mean, people have seen these post that she made and I would love to hear a full fleshed out interview of how she feels. Like that's Christian of her to say that. It was really hard to find anything that actually explained that because that's what I want to know in her mind if she looks back on those. She just said, oh, it's just a mistake. Well then are, are you going to apologize for it? Do you think it was wrong? If it was a mistake, let's admit it, let's apologize, let's acknowledge it. Instead she says, well, you know, just teenagers make mistakes. She doesn't want to own up to it. And then she just blames it on the fact that she's a conservative Christian. It, it reminds me a lot of what the church would do in a circumstance where they get caught doing something. Yeah, everybody makes mistakes. There's, there's essay, there's, you know, abuse in every religion.

John Dehlin [03:05:52] Yeah, that's dark.

Guest [03:05:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:55] Yeah. I thought it was interesting that she's hiding behind conservative Christians. Conservative Christians don't think Mormons are Christians. And it's rare for Mormons to hide behind the cloak of conservative Christians. That's kind of new. And then, yeah, clearly she's not being discriminated against for her Christianity. The south and this pageant, it's full of Christians and believers and, you know, so since when did beauty pageants favor secular people and discriminate against religious people? That just makes no sense. So it just seems like she's making up defenses to, you know, to try and shield herself. Now, of course, using the N word is terrible and I'm sure she said and did really awful things and yes, she should be accountable for that. Let me just ask you this. What about this argument that all of us have said and done things on the Internet that we would regret? We all deserve grace, especially for things we said and did when we were kids. Kids will be kids, and let's just allow people to grow and change. She clearly isn't talking that way now. Why should she a lose her title for stuff she said as a teen and even be why she should we even hold that against her now? You know, can't we just allow people to, to grow up and change and mature? Should none of this really be even on the table for dismissal or criticism? What do you think about that?

Meggan Hayes [03:07:23] I think it's really difficult because, yes, we want people to change and I would love for organizations to be able to model that for us. You know, like the pageant organization to say this woman said this, and we have become aware of it. Here she is apologizing, and then she's going to spend the next however many years of her, you know, with her crown, making sure that she, you know, has restitution to the people that she harmed in this. However, it didn't seem like that's what she wanted, and maybe that's just because she's feeling like she needs to retaliate because they removed her title. But our society isn't. Isn't doing that right now. I actually think it would be really healthy for us to be able to model that in organizations where we show someone messed up and they legitimately changed. Has she legitimately changed? From the interviews I've listened to, it doesn't sound like that.

John Dehlin [03:08:25] Yeah. All right, well, that's a great story. Thanks for sharing. I was surprised to see it pop up. Here's a serious kind of sad one. It involves someone's tragic death. I have to admit, I don't know who Chandler David Hendry is. I don't even recognize the name or the face. And I want to talk about this with respect, and I know you will. So, Megan, tell us about this tragic story.

Influencer Death and Road Safety Discussion

Meggan Hayes [03:08:54] So this is from People magazine, which shows how far of a reach this story has gotten. It says influencer Chandler David hendry dead at 27 after a three vehicle crash. And I wanted to show this headline because this has been talked about consistently since it was first reported and not just by Mormon and quote, unquote, ex Mormon sources. It has covered the Internet for some reason. It's just gotten out there and become really big news. So. And I did recogn. I didn't know his name, so I saw his name in the headlines, and it wasn't until I went to his channel. So he was the main host on a YouTube channel called Restored Truth. I think I have that right. And then I went there and I was like, oh, I've watched this guy's videos. I just didn't know that was his name.

John Dehlin [03:09:46] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [03:09:46] So anyway, the story this week has been talked about a lot. And if you go to the next slide, this was reportedly the last video that he posted.

John Dehlin [03:09:57] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [03:09:58] Before he died.

John Dehlin [03:09:59] Okay.

Speaker F [03:10:01] So last night at Fair, Anthony Sweatt presented this picture of the first rendition of the afterlife in Latter Day Saint thought in regards to ceilings. And this is the first ever picture of the plan of salvation and how it works within ceilings and families and basically identifying a link of lineages all the way back to Adam. That is what the eternities will look Like a link of the family unit of God, which I find super interesting because this posits the idea in doctrine and Covenants 132 when it says prosperity, it's associating to the prosperity of all of the ages of your lineage, not future creations that you're going to have. Kind of interesting. I don't know. Let me know your thoughts.

Meggan Hayes [03:10:57] So in that video, he's driving home from fair, I think that Wednesday night of the fair conference, he's driving, he's posting a video and he's not wearing a seatbelt, which was reported how he passed because he ran a red light and hit some other cars. And he wasn't wearing a seat belt, which I think is a good thing for us to acknowledge as individual people. So I had a really good friend who died. She, she was the person, when we got in the car, she would say, we're not moving until everyone has their seatbelt on. And then she was on a long. Well, she was driving. She was a passenger in a car for. From St. George back up to Payson, Utah, which is like a three and a half hour drive. And she was very tall. And halfway through the drive she just wanted to switch seats with the person next to her because she'd been sitting in the middle of the back seat and her legs were feeling cramped. So she took her seatbelt off and went to switch seats with the person next to her. And before she got her seatbelt back on, the car flipped three times and she didn't make it. And so I have always been the person who was like, if you need to take off your seatbelt, we pull over, like because of that experience. So I think it's really important to talk about safety and things that could have prevented. However, the more important thing is that this man is no longer here. He has a family and he said things that people didn't like, but, oh,

John Dehlin [03:12:25] he's married with kids.

Meggan Hayes [03:12:27] I don't know if he has kids. I didn't see that. But he is married

John Dehlin [03:12:32] thing.

Meggan Hayes [03:12:32] And so, yeah, so his, his family is grieving. And when, when one of my kids makes a mistake and they receive the natural consequence for that mistake, whatever it may be, I do not need to give them a lecture about what they did because they've already received the consequence. And this is that on a massive scale, his family and those who loved what he did. I didn't love what he did. I broke down his videos because they drove me crazy. But all they need right now is support and love because they are experiencing the most horrific consequence to some of his choices and a lecture. It's just, it's, it's not helpful. It's not necessary. They just need our support and our love.

John Dehlin [03:13:28] Wow. I'm going to just say I, I, I can do better in terms of safety and how I drive and how I allow distractions to affect me. I do. I am good at wearing my seatbelt. I think this should be an important public service announcement to remind everyone to wear their seatbelts. I'm, I'm flawless in that regard. Lately or, or throughout my life. I, this is a great reminder. Well, first of all, condolences to this man and his family. What a tragic loss. He seems like a great guy from the little video I just watched. He clearly was loved. What a tragic loss. I'm sorry this happened. It could have been any of us probably, in some sense. And condolences to him and his family. Love and support. Let us all remember to wear seatbelts and let us all remember to try and be safe. To be safer when we drive. What a sad loss.

Meggan Hayes [03:14:33] Yeah. And he's so young. He was so young and he was so. Just full of passion for what he was doing. And so, yeah, I, I just felt sadness. And I know there were people, other people who were affected in that crash.

John Dehlin [03:14:50] Yeah.

Speaker G [03:14:52] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:14:52] And because he died in the crash, he's not going to be put on trial and be held accountable in that way for what he did to those other people. Yeah, I understand that as well. It's, there's a lot going on here and we can have all of those feelings about it at the same time.

Guest [03:15:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:17] Well, I would be throwing stones in a glass house if I brought any judgment here. So I'm just going to say I'm sorry for. Personally. So I'm just saying I'm sorry for this loss. I wish him and his family and all the victims healing and growth. And I need to do better. So I'm going to work on being safer myself because I need to. So super sad is this. So it looks like there's gonna be a vigil.

Meggan Hayes [03:15:43] There was. This was actually posted on Jacob Hansen's channel. And I just thought the image was really beautiful. So just kind of to round that out, just. Yeah, yeah. There are a lot of people. Him, his family, like, I mean, he's gone, but his family and then the others who were affected who are grieving right now.

John Dehlin [03:16:00] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:16:00] What happened? And I think that's what we can focus on right now.

John Dehlin [03:16:04] That looks like a wedding photo.

Meggan Hayes [03:16:06] Yeah. Right. I'VE got his little bow tie and

John Dehlin [03:16:10] love to, you know, love to Chandler Hendry and his family and anyone affected by this tragedy.

Guest [03:16:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:19] And I'm gonna try and do better.

Meggan Hayes [03:16:22] Yeah.

Guest 2 [03:16:22] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:16:22] Because if the things he said in his life that he was very vocal about, I don't agree with. However, I can honor his life by being careful, by being more intentional about how I am when I'm on the road and how I treat other people when I get behind the wheel.

John Dehlin [03:16:40] Yeah. Amen. Well, a huge story in the past week or two has been the schedule change. I don't know that we talked about it last week or maybe we did a little bit. Did we talk about it a little bit?

General Conference Schedule and Meetinghouse Changes

Meggan Hayes [03:16:53] I don't remember if it was last week or previous, but I mean it's been ongoing for a while. But these were just a couple of things that came from Reddit about some of the changes that are going on. So I thought we could just do it. Just a brief. Yeah. So this one you actually brought to my attention. Schedule change is to reduce doctrinal discussions. Yesterday we had a meeting on the upcoming schedule change. It was touted as a blessing that there would only be about 20 minutes max for any discussions. They only want it focused on Jesus, which was their way of saying there would not be time for deep dive discussions on doctrine or church policy.

Guest [03:17:25] Policy.

Meggan Hayes [03:17:26] The rebranding campaign says it is to continue to support a home centered church. I see it as a way for them to blame inconvenient doctrine doctrines on

John Dehlin [03:17:35] the parents and then what's the graphic?

Meggan Hayes [03:17:38] So that's just the, the changes that are coming just in case people didn't know. So I got that from the church website. The they used to have sacrament meeting for roughly an hour and then in the second hour they would have either Sunday school or the gender based classes which would be priesthood or Relief Society. And they flip flopped those classes each week. So each of those would get an hour. But now they're taking that second hour and they're dividing it up into two 25 minute segments so that they can have Sunday School and Relief Society or priesthood every week.

John Dehlin [03:18:10] And the speculation, the part of the reason for that is that in longer classroom settings in Mormon religions these days they're more likely to talk about cringy maga things or prepper things or problematic church history or progressive social issues or problematic topics. And so by shortening class size during that second hour from one to two classes and from one one hour class to two 20 minute classes, they're possibly intentionally Reducing the likelihood that any substantive conversation will ever happen to reduce the likelihood that people will engage in problematic conversations. Like, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Don't we want less problematic conversations at a Mormon church?

Meggan Hayes [03:19:06] Well, right, but their idea of problematic is if you bring up LGBTQ rights

John Dehlin [03:19:13] or Joseph Smith's polygamy.

Guest 3 [03:19:14] Right.

John Dehlin [03:19:15] But also, they could not want MAGA discourses because we also know that a lot of people are leaving the church, including women, because they feel like the church has become too maga. So it could also be not just problematic church history, but too much maga. Right?

Meggan Hayes [03:19:32] Yeah, yeah. They're like, just shorten it. Just half the bishop picks some good speakers.

John Dehlin [03:19:40] Less talking.

Meggan Hayes [03:19:41] Yeah, have the bishop pick some really good speakers for that first hour where we can control the conversation and he can turn off the mic if he needs to. In those second hours, we'll just, we'll sing a song. We're going to cut out the young women theme and we're just going to go through really quick. There's barely time for an opening prayer and a closing prayer in a song.

John Dehlin [03:20:00] You know what's interesting is it's clear that church, Mormon church leaders want less members talking because they've already reduced church from three hours to two hours. That's less Mormon members talking. And now it's a reduction of the second hour to be one hour of talking to members talking for 40 minutes. What you're probably never going to see is general conference decreasing in total amount of time general authorities are talking. Right. Let's see if they match problematic talking on the membership level with problematic talking on the general authority level. And by the way, over the past 20 years, more and more, what do general authorities want Mormons talking about when they do talk on Sunday? Just Jesus or general authority talks. Like for the longest time. Now, what lesson do you give? You give a lesson on what the general authorities said in general conference.

Meggan Hayes [03:20:59] That's still the case.

John Dehlin [03:21:00] Right. So clearly they want no reduction in general authority talking, but much more of a reduction in members talking.

Meggan Hayes [03:21:12] I think it tracks. I think this person from Reddit, what is it? Secret personality is onto something.

John Dehlin [03:21:18] What's this slide?

Meggan Hayes [03:21:20] So this one is another post from Reddit. The picture came from Rebecca Biblioteca, but the title is a new church initiative that the Christ Centered Meeting House which Rebecca talked about. I. I would think it was at least a month ago where she got this information that the church is going to remodel their meeting houses. Right now, if you go into a Mormon church building, it will have a row of pews on the left hand side, a row of pews in the middle, and a row on the right hand side. And then the sacrament meeting table where they break the bread and pour the water and say the prayer is up front. And which is the first graphic where it shows red. And then the second graph, it shows what they're going to possibly remodel them to with two rows of pews, one on the right and the left with an aisle down the center. And then they're going to move the sacrament table to the front and center. It looks like even in front of the podium, which it's a big change. It's a big change. And that was rumored, I think with a pretty credible source because it came from Rebecca months ago. But then this person, if you go to the next slide, will read what happened in their ward recently.

John Dehlin [03:22:26] Okay, there, there it is.

Meggan Hayes [03:22:29] So turns out the church is piloting a Christ centered meeting house idea. Beginning in January, our building and 15 other meeting houses in Utah will be gutted. And according to our stake president who feigned ignorance, walls will be moved around to make the space more inviting and conducive to Christ centered worship. Construction will take about a year and then we'll move back into our improved magical meeting house. No drawings were displayed, but through later gossip, I've come to understand the most significant alterations will be to the chapel. Apparently three rows of pews will be reduced to two and the sacrament table will be rejiggered front and center. So it's been confirmed ish through a Reddit post of someone who experienced this.

John Dehlin [03:23:15] And what are your thoughts in summary?

Meggan Hayes [03:23:20] The church is, they're really trying. They're shortening the meetings, they're making them more Christian. And I think this architecture probably feels would feel a lot more familiar to mainstream Christianity. I don't actually know. I haven't been in a lot of other church buildings other than Mormon church buildings. I mean, I've been in a few cathedrals, but I don't, I don't know if I think to make the inside of their meeting houses feel more comfortable for Christians outside. I mean, maybe just take the carpet off the walls. I don't know. Mormon meeting houses are pretty bland. I don't know if moving the sacrament meeting table is going to fix that all that much unless they're also doing something else.

John Dehlin [03:24:02] I know we've covered this on Mormon stories recently. This is the second time I think we've talked about this. I don't remember when, but I think it's interesting, the conclusions I came to when we talked about it before, clearly one reduction is in the total number of seating. Less room for people to sit down. And as the church shrinks in membership, it would make sense that they would change the structure of the. Of the chapels so that they look less empty. Right?

Meggan Hayes [03:24:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:40] By reducing the number of seats, they're making it look less empty. Like less seats are empty. Right.

Meggan Hayes [03:24:49] Yeah. They're selling off buildings and they're combining wards. And then the wards are still pretty small and meager. So. Yeah, if they have less seats, then people will feel like their congregation is still robust.

John Dehlin [03:25:00] Yeah. And then also it looks like they're trying to make the sacrament more central, which I think is an okay motivation. And then the final thing is my nephew Arthur reminded me that this is a move for us to try and become more of a certain type of mainstream Christian. Right. That it's us trying to be more like a certain branch of Christianity that has the ritual being more the focus instead of the sermons.

Meggan Hayes [03:25:36] Okay. Okay. Yeah, I see.

John Dehlin [03:25:39] My nephew Arthur gave me that thought.

Meggan Hayes [03:25:43] Yeah. It's interesting. I. I can't wait to see these buildings get constructed in this way and then revisit. See how it feels for people. What do they say?

John Dehlin [03:25:53] I think it's also a chance to help a bunch of friends and family of Mormon leaders make money. Because guess what? A lot of money is going to be spent ripping out these chapels and putting in new benches and putting new carpet and all the construction and then buying the benches and buying the carpet. Well, who's going to be chosen for those business contracts? Jewish people? Flds people? Evangelicals? No, it's going to be the businesses of, you know, leaders of the church, the family and friends of church leaders. And it's just a way for the church to redirect its wealth towards the insiders that stand to benefit from the wealth. And that's why I think the church is never going to go away. As long as there's 300 to $500 billion to a trillion dollars of money to spend. There's always going to be members who are going to stay in the church if for no other reason than that they stand to benefit from contracts and redirection of that wealth towards those who stay in power and their friends and family.

Meggan Hayes [03:26:58] Yes. Their money dealings are often very incestuous.

John Dehlin [03:27:02] Yeah. Patronage. All right, Oaks. Happy birthday, Elder Oaks.

Meggan Hayes [03:27:07] Yeah. As he turns 94, Dallin Oaks is set to take his first trip abroad as LDS Church president. President. He will. He's going to go to South America to dedicate a temple. I, I really hope this goes well. I heard that when some of the other prophets were getting on in years, they went to temple dedications and named the wrong temple or, you know, said, said the same thing three or four times and kind of had to be redirected or escorted away. So I, I hope his health is maintaining enough that he can do this. I really do.

Aging Church Leadership and Temple Dedications

John Dehlin [03:27:43] And I'm told by a reliable source that he has Parkinson's. So I just, I do think it's worth reminding that it's kind of inhumane to make 94 year olds hold the equivalent position of a, of a CEO of a multinational conglomerate Fortune 500. Like I, there's a part of me that just wishes they could be grandpas, you know, and, and live out the rest of their days, but maybe he loves it, so whatever.

Meggan Hayes [03:28:09] Yeah, I think he's also recovering from a knee surgery, isn't he?

John Dehlin [03:28:13] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:28:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:14] I've heard he has Parkinson's. So this is an interesting graphic because it shows him by the Huntsman jet.

Meggan Hayes [03:28:22] So the, the Salt Lake Tribune said that quote there. Like all Latter Day Saint presidents since, Gordon B. Hinckley, Oaks will not have to deal with with the bustle of packed airport terminals or other hurried passengers for his 6,000 mile journey. The church has use of a private corporate jet for these trips. So that picture I actually got from a different news article when the jet was donated, and then I just took the previous picture of Oaks standing in front of whatever that was on the previous slide and just threw him on top of there. Because that's the jet that he will, I mean, yeah, the Salt Lake Tribune says he will be riding in.

John Dehlin [03:29:01] No, I, I, I, I have firsthand knowledge that historically church leaders have flown on the Huntsman jet. I know that's a fact. I don't know if that's true today, but I know historically that's been a fact and it does. You know, if the church is worth $300 billion, can't they afford their own jets? Or do they just not have jets? So they can't be accused of having jets, but then they borrow jets anyway. That's what's going on there. Megan.

Meggan Hayes [03:29:34] The article, when they were given the jet actually made it sound like it was donated to them. So, like they do have it.

John Dehlin [03:29:43] No, no. I don't know. Maybe. Or donated to use.

Meggan Hayes [03:29:50] I'll have to go back and look at it again because I was just like, I've always heard this. They fly around in private jeans Jet thing. And I was like, oh, the Salt Lake Tribune actually reported on it. I mean, so it says they have use of. So maybe in this one, maybe. Maybe they don't own it, but. Yeah, maybe they don't. Well, because they don't want to be seen as like the mega pastors from the mega churches who all have an airstrip in their backyard on their, you know, 500 acres.

John Dehlin [03:30:16] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:30:17] Behind a gated driveway.

John Dehlin [03:30:20] I'd like our viewers and listeners to tell me, like, I, I once, I was working at Microsoft and they flew me business class once. And ironically, I sat behind Elder Oaks in first class on a flight and I dropped him a note and he wrote me back. And that's part of the lawsuit narrative, actually, because some of the evidence from that exchange is in our response to the lawsuit, because I've got a whole history with Elder Oaks, but I've flown first class with Elder Oaks. But I don't know if Mormon apostles and First Presidency members still fly first class sometimes or if they're all on jets now and again. I don't know if the church has its own private fleet now or if it's all Huntsman jets. So if our viewers or listeners can tell us what the latest travel habits are for the quorum of the 12 and the first Presidency, I'm dying to know. It wouldn't surprise me if they're all private jets now. It wouldn't surprise me if it's all Huntsman stuff. It wouldn't surprise me if the church has its own fleet. And it wouldn't surprise me if they're still flying first class or some combination of it all. But why can't they just come clean? Right.

Meggan Hayes [03:31:28] Right. Just say it. Well, and when they go into the airport, they're whisked away into the lounges and whatnot so that people don't stop them to talk to them, which I understand. Like, they don't want to be, you know, asked to heal someone in the middle of an airport, which actually, if they could heal people, that'd be amazing. Just go to the. Go wherever and just heal people along the way. But, yeah, just. Just be honest about it. Yeah, but they. They don't want to. They don't want to be like, we're. Yes, yes, we're flying in our private jet. But also, we told people to pay tithing instead of feeding their kids.

John Dehlin [03:32:03] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [03:32:03] It's not a good look.

John Dehlin [03:32:05] Yeah. Well, before we end and I. Thank you, I'm going to just take one more second to plug our new website. We have a new website called Mormon News. It's@mormonnews.com I've been sitting on that domain for a long time and I just got a new website up, new and improved. It's half the website for this podcast, the Mormon News podcast that Megan's helping out with and also Nemo's helped out a bit with. So you can find our back episodes there. So if you go to the right hand side there, you can see our past episodes there listed. And then also you'll find it's an aggregator of the most interesting and important Mormon news we can aggregate. So there it's got the latest video, it's emphasizing is church releases, videos explaining new Sunday schedule. And then it's also got other categories like LDS, church temples, Joseph Smith, polygamy, child abuse, influencers, YouTube and sports. If y' all have ideas of other categories you want us to have, there's a business category that I have, it isn't listed there. You can check out the business category. If you have ideas of other categories you want me to include there I'm willing to entertain. And if you have ideas on and I'm repeating myself if anyone has ideas on how to make this MormonNews.com website more useful and effective for the world. Is an aggregator useful? Are there other things we could do with this? I want to hear about it. And then I also just want to note that, you know, we pay Megan and Nemo and Julia and Brooklyn and everyone and myself for their participation on this project. And so we could really use your financial support. You can support us by subscribing to this podcast on YouTube or Facebook or wherever you consume it. You can like it, you can share it, you can comment on it. That all helps. And the most helpful thing is when you donate. So there's a donate button now and you can click on the donate button and what that's going to take you to is a donation box where you can sign up to be a one time or a monthly or an annual donor to the Mormon News podcast and the website. And we would love your financial support. And I just want to also thank our donors for making today's episode possible. Thank you. If you're a donator to Mormon Stories podcast or now the Mormon News Podcast, please donate to this this project specifically. If you want to see Megan and this series and the website continue. Please donate to the Mormon News podcast and Megan, your work is amazing. Your research is amazing. Your knowledge is amazing. Your videos are amazing, generally unquotable is amazing. Your comments Today are amazing. You're freaking amazing.

Meggan Hayes [03:35:00] Thank you, John. I thank you. Yeah, I'm just gonna try to absorb that.

John Dehlin [03:35:07] Okay, well, you want to plug your show really quick?

Meggan Hayes [03:35:11] Sure. Yeah. So I started out as generally unquotable and I'm still doing that. And then I'm also hosting here with John. So if you look up generally unquotable, if you have to Google how to spell it, don't worry about it. It's fine. Everybody probably has to to do that. You can find me on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, tick Tock, Spotify and Patreon. I am probably the most active on YouTube and Patreon. Some of those other ones I do because that's where people find their information. But they're not my favorite platforms because they're a lot of work and not a lot of return. But YouTube and Patreon are my favorites. But I do post on the other intermittently. I'm not as consistent.

John Dehlin [03:35:53] That's it. So support general unquotable, generally unquotable as you support the Mormon News podcast. Also check out Rebecca Biblioteca and Landon at Mormonish Radio Free Mormon. Bill Real and Rebecca on on the Mormon News podcast. Mormon Newscast. Yes, weekly. Also Mormon Land with the Salt Lake Tribune. They they do a great job. They covered the lawsuit this week. I want to shout out to Tamara Kemsley and Salt Lake Tribune in Mormon Mormon land. They do great work. So all the I'm for and freaking Jenna Reese does a great job with her with her work on flunking sainthood. So like all the love to all the news sources, we need more news commentary. Mormon news commentary, not less Love to them all really quickly. Also, Ryan Scott writes, thank you both for that discussion today. And thanks to Trevor. I always forget to thank Trevenon for his amazing moderation. So thanks to Julia for her help. Brooklyn and also Trevenon. Trevor, you do a great job so reliably and consistency. So thank you. Ryan's being sneaky and he's saying to make the banner blue. I don't think it would be advisable right now for me to make that banner blue just with the context that's going on. So thank you and no thank you. Bo says love the news aggregation. Thanks, Bo. I Want to hear B.O. your feedback on how to make MormonNews.com more effective. Anyway, love you all the comments have been amazing today. Thanks for joining us today on the Mormon News Podcast. Megan, you're the best. Be good to each other, be kind to each other. Support MormonNews.com and this show. And we'll see you all again next week on another episode of the Mormon News Podcast. Thanks, Megan. Take care, everybody. See you soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.