Mormon News Podcast: Latter Day Saints Not Christian

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Foreign. And welcome to another edition of the Mormon News podcast, or Mormon News brought to you by Mormon Stories Podcast. I am one of your co hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is June 11, 2026, and the headline for today's episode is Latter Day Saints not Christian question mark. Or are Mormons Christian? But there's actually several stories that we're going to be covering today. I will say that Megan has been busy. Megan from generally unquotable, she came to Utah, went to Utah Pride, and has also just been doing summer stuff. So we. We know that many of you love having Megan on, and Megan is welcome anytime she wants. She has taken the past couple weeks off, so don't conclude yet that that blooming relationship has ended. But we also. The show must go on. Right? Right, Brooklyn? Right, Julia?

Brooklyn Alden [00:01:05] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] Yeah. The show must go on. So we've got several news stories for this past week that we want to cover, and I'm super happy that Julia and Brooklyn are both willing to co host and also that they were willing to step up to prepare today's episode. Before I turn the time over to them, I do want to welcome all our livestream viewers. We welcome your comments and questions. Please take the time to subscribe and like and follow and comment and all those things. And I also just want to let everyone know that if you really want to make sure we can see your comments or questions, it's really helpful to share them on YouTube as a Super chat, mostly just because that's. That's the best way for us to see them. But anyway, without any further ado, Julia, welcome back to Mormon Stories as always.

Julia [00:02:05] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] And Brooklyn, you got a. You got a new mic.

Julia [00:02:09] Hi.

Brooklyn Alden [00:02:09] Yes, thanks. John De Lynn won't subject your audience to my bad audio anymore.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] Yeah, well, I love having your commentary as well. So thanks to you both for make it Today happen. Julia, do you want to take over?

Julia [00:02:23] Yeah. So the first story, so we did, we did this coverage for Reckless Ben and the bricks and minifig fiasco where he was trying to help this man, Brian Mansell, get his Lego collection either back or get the money that was owed him. So you can go watch that episode that we covered all that. But so we just have a little bit of an update. I think the biggest thing in that story to me was the. The conduct of the American Fork Police.

Update on Reckless Ben and the Lego Minifig fiasco

John Dehlin [00:02:50] If I just say just really quickly, my understanding is that that Ben has been silenced as of now. A temporary restraining order, something has been accept. Has been accepted or signed by the judge. He's been told something between he can't speak anymore about this for now. And I, I think he may have even been told he has to take what he's already shared down and he's kind of freaked out about it. So I'm bummed for Reckless Ben that he's being silenced in this way personally. And I also have heard that he may be willing or able to come on Mormon Stories podcast. And I don't know if that means he just won't mention the names of the companies or people's names. But check out, check back mid next week and if we're lucky, we're going to have Reckless Ben on Mormon Stories podcast. So that's kind of fun.

Guest [00:03:46] Anyway.

Julia [00:03:48] Yeah. Okay, so this clip, so, so if you go to the, the third slide, this happened on June 9th, so reckless is Reckless Ben's Reddit post where he says he titles it American Fork. Utah City Council is grilled in regards to the AFPD conduct. And then if you go forward one, he pulls this video from this woman's channel. This is Frugal Family flies again. It's like a 50 minute video and he just had clipped the important parts. And then I want to share that clip in this slide here. This is just a woman who's attending the city council.

American Fork City Council Is Grilled Over Police Misconduct

John Dehlin [00:04:22] All right, let's play it. There's an increase of around $600,000

Brooklyn Alden [00:04:28] taxes.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] Even though this increase is large, it is not large enough for the outcome civil lawsuits that our city is about to face because of the misconduct of our police department. Our police department in March went on a crusade against an individual and he now has legal rights to sue this thing. Then it's going to be our taxpayer dollars and they're going to have to pay for that. The police chief then went on media release and lied to the public. He stated that the individual did not complete a traffic stop. I did not complete a stop sign. Complete stop. But when reviewing the video evidence, they did. He said that when this individual was trying to serve court papers, which is, which is his civil right, that when the police reviewed the court papers, they said that they had already been served, which was a lie. They had not been. The police went on. The police squatted. This individual arrested five people without any arrest warrants and then took four of them that they wouldn't even know the identity of into custody, one of them being a minor, which they pointed guns. This is unacceptable compliment police department. When Paul took office, he said, I am extremely committed to ensuring our community members are proud of their police department and their Officers, I am not proud of my police department officers. In fact, seeing this conduct, I am in fear of standing here with, seeing if there's any retribution they might bring on me because that is what they

Julia [00:06:18] did to this individual.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] And if they're willing to do that to them, they are willing to do that to me. Anyone else who raises the voice, thank you. I want to meet. I want to meet this woman. I want to invite her on Mormon stories to tell her.

Julia [00:06:38] Mormon.

Brooklyn Alden [00:06:38] Seriously?

Julia [00:06:40] Yeah, that was great. I'm really glad she got to film that. And like, I don't know who the individual was.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] Sorry, sorry. Keep going.

Julia [00:06:48] I don't know who the individual was who was speaking, but I think that was an amazing speech. He's even saying, like, I stand in fear of what's happening right now. And like he. I even think that he didn't even fully say all the, you know, terrible things that the American Fork Police Department did. But like, these are things that he's worried about. Like arresting people without identification, arresting minors, stopping people, pulling people over that did obey traffic laws. Yeah, those are those all understandable.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] I can't believe they swatted people without warrants.

Julia [00:07:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] Like they had guns drawn. That's how people get shot and killed.

Julia [00:07:23] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] And then. Yeah, the way that, the way that the, the guy who was trying, who was trying to avoid service convinced the police officer that the, the service was fake and that the lawsuit was fake and he's just like, haha, okay, it's fake. Now let's go arrest the guy. Yeah.

Julia [00:07:42] And this gentleman was like, he had a legal right to sue, as everybody does. He shouldn't have been stopped when he was trying to do that.

Brooklyn Alden [00:07:49] So yeah, yeah. I'm trying to understand why the police are even inserting themselves so much in this situation and like blatantly taking aside like, what are they benefiting from either side? It makes zero sense to me. And just like how to get your department investigated 101 for no reason, it's just so odd. And just showing their hand for the weirdest reason. And I mean, just the audacity in today's day and age. You know, there's a body cam and cameras on the car at all times. Why are you saying you pulled him over for a stop when you know there's evidence that he didn't like, just that stuff alone. It's just shocking to me, to the point I can't even relate or understand.

Julia [00:08:25] And then the redacted videos and she's just gaslighting. She's like we don't redact like that. This didn't happen. I, I was appalled by that too.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] I mean, the audacity is best explained by a confidence that you can get away with anything.

Brooklyn Alden [00:08:38] Yes, correct. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:42] Well, that's crazy. And I just, I want to. I'll say it again. I want to meet whoever runs Frugal Family flies again. Please, listeners, viewers, reach out to this woman. Tell her to email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com free interview on Mormon stories. If for no other reason than this, this face alone.

Brooklyn Alden [00:09:06] Yeah, we gotta know her story.

John Dehlin [00:09:11] A lot of courage. Like his point that this is the last point, the fact that he's terrified that he could be retaliated against. I feel that, like I'm afraid to drive into Utah county now because if they could make up some reason to arrest me, what type of treatment would I get in the jail cell when there's no cameras going, you know?

Julia [00:09:31] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:09:32] Anyway.

Julia [00:09:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] Kind of terrifying.

Julia [00:09:35] Yeah.

Tradwife Open Store In Utah

John Dehlin [00:09:37] All right, what's next?

Julia [00:09:40] So did you want to cover this one, John?

John Dehlin [00:09:42] Yeah, I was, I, I'm, I'm a subscriber to the New York Times. I love the New York Times. It's probably my favorite news source. I hope people don't hate me for that. But I was interested to pop. That popped up Yesterday was a 13 minute article entitled tradwife, Influencer open store in small town. Tourists abound. It's not often that Midway, Utah is in the New York Times and the subtitle says tourists are flocking to Midway, Utah. The ballerina farm store from the Influencer, whose brand revolves around motherhood and farm life is a reason. So it shows these, I don't know, 20 something women or moms. I don't know if they're eating ice cream cones or drinking orange juice. Do you all know what they're drinking there?

Brooklyn Alden [00:10:33] No, I have no idea.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] They're drinking or eating something.

Brooklyn Alden [00:10:36] Yeah, some popsicle or something.

John Dehlin [00:10:38] Popsicles maybe. And then this is a photo of Hannah Neeleman and her husband Daniel. Of course, Daniel is the son of the founder of JetBlue. So it's kind of like, I don't know, some say it's just a husband and a wife living a traditional lifestyle. Others say they're LARPing, you know, traditional lifestyles for profit.

Brooklyn Alden [00:11:03] I feel that way.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] Is that how you feel, Brooklyn?

Brooklyn Alden [00:11:05] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:07] Tell us your thoughts and feelings. I don't think we've heard your, your ballerina farm take Brooklyn.

Brooklyn Alden [00:11:12] And I mean, I'm not super expert on ballerina farm, but Just the extent that I know that's exactly how I feel of it. Of like, I mean, it's from like a almost billionaire family. Right. If I'm not mistaken. Very, very, very wealthy family. And it reminds me of now if anyone's been to Versailles in France, but Marie Antoinette had a little farmland where she would go and pick the eggs and, you know, feed the chickens and pretend like she was some normal farm lady that didn't live in the palace of Versailles. And that's exactly what it makes me think of, is just larping. Farm girl. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:50] And I mean, go ahead.

Brooklyn Alden [00:11:51] Nothing wrong with it, but that's what it makes me think.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] Kind of in this area, right. Brooklyn.

Brooklyn Alden [00:11:56] Like, I'm from Park City. Yes. I have family lives in Midway now, and I'm in that area most of the time. I'm in Utah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:04] Yeah. It's. It's a fact. So and so they live in. As I understand it, they live in Camas. And don't you have a little bit of insider info about camas?

Brooklyn Alden [00:12:12] Oh, I mean, I was. I've heard, you know, I've got some family members just bought a house in camas and we just learned that almost all the other homes in their neighborhood have been bought by ballerina farms. And stay.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] That's what small, charming farmers do is they buy up all the real estate in the entire community. Right.

Brooklyn Alden [00:12:33] Yeah. And I was like, so. Oh, so you're living with all the ballafrito farm workers. It's just interesting. I believe it's for the J1 employees. I don't think they knew that going into this development.

Julia [00:12:45] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] But what do you mean the J1, J1, right.

Brooklyn Alden [00:12:49] Our usually student age people who come over on a visa to work. Usually it will be like at the ski resorts and stuff for a winter, for a season, and then go back. So I guess they're hiring some J1 employees, I'm assuming, just purely based off this hearsay information that I have. But yeah, I've heard basically this whole development is now being bought by ballerina farms.

Julia [00:13:11] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:13:13] U.S. citizens that come to work. Working visas.

Brooklyn Alden [00:13:16] Yes, legally. Usually student age people.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] But like resorts. Like. Like the ski resorts. Okay.

Brooklyn Alden [00:13:23] Yes.

Julia [00:13:24] Oh.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] So here's. Yeah, here's Hannah and Daniel. And by the way, like, I don't. I don't think we begrudge anyone their success. I don't think we begrudge, you know, influencers and. Yeah. What's wrong? I mean, I don't even think I. I just say, personally, I don't begrudge traditional people that want to live traditional lifestyles, stay at home moms, people that want to have a lot of kids, people that want to cook. I just want to say I don't want to be on the one hand kind of, you know, the ex Mormon that will just criticize anything that isn't kind of the way I choose to live. Right. I think, Brooklyn, your point is just more is, is there authenticity question? Is that. Is that right?

Brooklyn Alden [00:14:10] Oh, I don't know. And I don't even know if I'm. Look, you know, I'm not trying to judge it one way or another. I think, I think it's awesome that she's out there being a successful businesswoman, actually, because, you know, we talk about traditional values, but we kind of forget that with this whole trad wife, social media wife phenomenon. They're working really hard in providing a lot of income for their family and it's anything but stay at home mom. Actually, you know, it's.

Ballerina Farm's Successful Businesswoman Gets Real

John Dehlin [00:14:35] That's true.

Brooklyn Alden [00:14:35] I mean, work really hard to look like I'm being the stay at home mom, which totally fine.

Guest [00:14:40] I.

Brooklyn Alden [00:14:40] But I have respect for the hustle of it and actually like the work that she's putting into it, you know, and complete respect for stay at home wives as well. Like, that's completely fine. Yeah. I just find it an interesting. I don't even know how to qualify pros and cons of it, but it's just an interesting phenomenon of pretend working really hard to pretend that you're not working and you're staying at home. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:04] Watching the kids. One of the things I read in the article is they asked how many nannies they have and they declined to comment, saying that that's personal. We want to keep the kids lives private. And I'm like, do you want to keep the kids lives private or do you just not want to admit how many nannies.

Brooklyn Alden [00:15:20] Yeah,

Julia [00:15:22] speaking. I was a nanny and I am all for nannies when people are working like that because I can't imagine 100% have a nanny.

Brooklyn Alden [00:15:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I have no shame for anything they're doing. I'm just, you know, curious observer.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] Not. Not mep. Says Corey Rich in the old neighborhood. And that's right. A lot's going on. I'll also say Noah Rashetta from. From secular Buddhism has historically lived in the Camas Oakley area. I just had, I had lunch with Noah Rachetti yesterday. So I had no. Have no. On my mind really quickly. Here's a shot of their whole milk. Of course Many of you will remember that there was a. A raw milk controversy where I think Ballerina Farm was selling raw milk and people were getting sick, so they had to. I think they had to scuttle the raw milk.

Brooklyn Alden [00:16:14] Yeah. I would say that's one of my bigger gripes is that I hear I have not purchased one item, but I hear the quality can be lacking for the price. You know, there was the whole scandal of the cutting boards that were like hundreds of dollars for, you know, super low quality cutting board. That kind of part I don't like. That also has to do with kind of the influencer culture that's going on nowadays, though, and just selling any product, people marketing anything and putting a markup on it because it says Ballerina Farm or whatever. And that's the whole part about the whole influencer industry that I don't love.

Should The Church Sell Mormon Stories Merch?

John Dehlin [00:16:46] We should sell Mormon Stories Merch or products. What. What products go with Mormon Stories brand?

Brooklyn Alden [00:16:52] Well, you should. Yeah. We need some suggestions.

Julia [00:16:55] I think hats, shirts, like, I think.

Brooklyn Alden [00:16:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] I think the church would sue me if I tried to sell merch.

Julia [00:17:03] Wait, they don't have that. They don't have that protected trademark. Right. Because that's a different class.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] Well, Heather. Heather Gay tried. Tried to sell merch.

Julia [00:17:10] You're right.

Brooklyn Alden [00:17:12] To trademark bad Mormon. Yeah.

Julia [00:17:14] I don't understand how.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] It's church and she couldn't sell it, so she couldn't sell the merch.

Julia [00:17:19] I don't understand how that all works because I thought they only trademarked it for the educational purposes.

Brooklyn Alden [00:17:24] Yeah.

Julia [00:17:25] Not. But also the church can't.

Brooklyn Alden [00:17:26] The whole thing. It just feels like, you know, the worst parts of corporate America where you have enough money and you. It doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. If they want to do something they've got enough money to do cause of the suits or make it a big enough inconvenience to not fight it, as our friend John is learning. You know, they could do anything. They could do anything with this money.

Guest [00:17:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:49] I was gonna say. Let me be pedantic and condescending, Julia. If you have a lot of money and power, you can kind of do what you want these days.

Julia [00:17:56] You can buy anything in this world. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:58] You can buy anything in this world with money. Oh, my gosh. Last photo is just look at the lines. Like, oh, my God. Doing well. And I guess we wish. We wish them well. Right? We wish them well. We wish them all the success. We. Yeah. All right. Fun. What's next?

Brooklyn Alden [00:18:17] Oh, someone Says Blank Blank Stories Podcast merch. That. That'll do.

John Dehlin [00:18:24] I love it. I love it. All right, what's. This is breaking news thanks to Rebecca. I think.

Rebecca Biblioteca

Julia [00:18:31] Yes.

Brooklyn Alden [00:18:31] 100 thanks to Rebecca Biblioteca. I don't think I saw this anywhere else. So I've got to give 100 credit from. Everything we have is from her. Try to even look up some other. Like this is her. I think she's got it from people that she knows and her own research. So if you want more in depth, go check out the Mormonish news.

John Dehlin [00:18:49] Isn't Rebecca and Mormonish a treasure?

Julia [00:18:52] She's so amazing.

Brooklyn Alden [00:18:53] Yeah.

Julia [00:18:53] Like, yeah. I don't know how she does it.

Brooklyn Alden [00:18:56] She's so thorough and just well spoken. Yes. We love you, Rebecca.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] Yeah, we love you, Rebecca. So what's the story?

Brooklyn Alden [00:19:03] Yeah, so let's watch her quick clip because she'll do it better than me.

Mormon Meeting House Remodel

John Dehlin [00:19:07] All right, and then this is a

Brooklyn Alden [00:19:08] quote just from her story on the Mormon newscast last night, based on some

Julia [00:19:13] architectural plans that I came across for

Brooklyn Alden [00:19:15] a new meeting house remodel.

Julia [00:19:19] Can you tell what's happening here in this picture?

Brooklyn Alden [00:19:21] It looks like they're moving the sacrament

Julia [00:19:23] table and the places where the priesthood sit to the front of the chapel. This is like other Christian churches who have their sacrament communion altar table right in front.

Brooklyn Alden [00:19:34] Now, as we know, for the last

Julia [00:19:35] 25 years, that sacrament table and where

Brooklyn Alden [00:19:37] the priesthood boys sit has been either on the right or left side. I did a poll on that.

Julia [00:19:41] Maybe you guys participated. But I have just had it confirmed after my newscast broadcast that this is indeed the plan for all new buildings going forward. And for old buildings, they're either selling them or remodeling them. Like these plants that I've seen.

Brooklyn Alden [00:19:57] And the whole project is supposed to be finished up by 2028. I guess they're joining mainstream Christianity even

Julia [00:20:05] further by moving that altar in the sacrament Focus. Dang.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Fascinating. What do y' all think?

Julia [00:20:12] Yeah. So, like, there's one more slide.

John Dehlin [00:20:14] Let me show the slide.

Julia [00:20:16] So, yeah, I'm sorry, I just. I have some questions, but you can keep going.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] Tell us what we see here first.

Brooklyn Alden [00:20:22] Yeah, I could just walk through what we see here. So the red spots that I've marked with the arrow there, the red was all from. I don't know if that's Rebecca. She. Rebecca got these plans, and these were all from her. So she explained the red is all going away. The building itself is not being demolished. That's why it says for existing LDS buildings. So they're not building new One, this is a remodel to an existing building. But all of that marked in red is going to go away. The yellow will be moved to the center, and they're going to kind of, you know, you can see redesign a little bit. Looks like in the front centered around the table more. And I mean, just the biggest point for me that I think she pointed out was it's just going along the lines of more mainstream Christian churches of having the sacrament front and center.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] Fascinating. If I can just give a couple reactions, because it's the first time I'm seeing this. So a traditional LDS chapel has kind of three, I don't know, columns of pews, and it looks like they're reducing it to two columns of pews. In other words, instead of having two. Yeah. Three different type. Yeah. I don't know how else to describe it, but there's the pews on the left side, the pews in the middle, and then the pews in the right. And two lanes between one lane between the first and the second set of pews, and one lane between the second and third. That's where Mormon deacons would pass the sacrament, would be in those lanes between the pews. They're eliminating one section of pews and just having kind of a left section and a right section. And that's interesting because I think that reduces. I'm just reacting here, but you know what that tends to do. What are you going to guess? I'm going to say Brooklyn.

Brooklyn Alden [00:22:08] I. I think the same thing. I just noticed that. Doesn't it look like there's less seats in that building?

John Dehlin [00:22:12] So they're gonna make it. Make it look like there. It's more full than it.

Brooklyn Alden [00:22:18] Because it looks like. John, if you don't mind going back there, it looks like on the side, there's still an aisle next to the two sections. So aisle in the middle aisle either side. So you can still get in the chair from either side because you don't want to crawl other people. And as opposed to it being squashed up in the side, which would give more space for seats, I think this is a way to make it look more full. And I literally only think that just now as I look at these pictures, I made this, put the slides together, and it didn't occur to me until right now. And I'm like, it looks like a lot less seat capacity.

John Dehlin [00:22:49] Yep.

Julia [00:22:51] I have more questions. So, like, the deacons used. Or all the priesthood would sit on the side and the front, and they're. You would just see their. The backs of their heads. So right here I'm confused by what I'm seeing. So we've got the sacrament table and then are the deacons or are these. I don't want to call them, these priesthood holders, are they facing the crowd? Because I feel like. Also because we talk a lot of on Mormon stories about people who are not allowed to take the sacrament or whatever and they can't pass the sacrament. I feel like that would make it even more obvious if you're sitting facing the crowd. Is that what I'm hearing or if that what I'm seeing?

Brooklyn Alden [00:23:22] You know, I don't think it's specifically said. My impression would still be, I mean, my memories of deacons passing sacrament, especially for never Mormons, they sit kind of up in this front right section, right up at the front by the yellow table up there so that they can be close to passing the sacrament. Then just a few, you know, are they priests or. I think the priests bless it. So there's what, two or three of them up there actually blessing it, getting it prepared. The rest of the deacons down there waiting to pass. I would imagine they could still do the same thing where it's just a few people sitting in the yellow bits behind the table. And then the deacons could still be up front on the few rows. But that's purely my speculation. I have no idea.

Wonders of the Church

John Dehlin [00:24:04] Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

Julia [00:24:05] I was just gonna say Rebecca's in the comments and she's leaving some really good ones, if you want to.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] Rebecca.

Julia [00:24:12] So this one, she's answering my questions. She says it looks like they are facing the crowd, a massive priesthood presence to focus on the fact that we have the priesthood. So, yeah, I do think that that's the thing. And I also think that could be harder on these young men who, who maybe have slipped up or, or have deemed unworthy. But then also like the sacrament table, because my first thought was this is more Christ focused because they, you know, they say that's the most sacred thing that you do at church, is you can just come and take the sacrament and then leave if you even needed to. But so it's front and center. And I was also thinking if people are members of the church, they can come in and just see that that's the center focus is this, these main tables.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] So, yeah, there's interesting, there's a symbolic value I think that this is striving for if we're going to take away any potentially cynical observations like the one about making the pews look more full and less empty. Which I think is probably also a bonus to them. They're taking the sacrament table where the sacrament is blessed and prepared, and they're moving it to the center in front of where the bishopric would sit. They're actually, it looks like they're taking the bishopric stand off a stand that's elevated where the choir would be. And it looks like they might be bringing that down to the same level as the members. I'm not sure, but that's the suggestion I'm getting is that potentially maybe they're bringing the leadership down to the level of the members, but they're certainly centering the baptismal preparation. I'm sorry, the, the sacrament preparation and blessing table to the center, which to me does a couple things. It puts the, the focus of the sacrament as being central to the meeting, which I think is probably a sincere intent on their part and even a good one. I think they're also, In addition. Dang, now I'm forgetting. So they're Go ahead.

Mormon Conference and the New Pavilion

Julia [00:26:15] I have other thoughts too, because like, this might. I hope this doesn't distract you, but my thoughts are. Are they. They're either selling these buildings, I don't know if they're destroying these and then just putting new pulpits in because I have questions about tax exempt status. Because I thought, I don't know, I'm not a tax person at all. But I thought that you had to spend a certain amount of money or you had to have like with these temples. I don't know if this, this has to do with budgeting or if this is like, oh, this is a way to spend our money without actually having to make another empty building. I don't know. I just had some thoughts about that. Like they're. How much money are they spending in this whole thing is if they're trying to change. Rebecca, you said this was kind of a crazy number to be trying to get to by 2028 or whatever. Like that's a lot of work and money to be putting into these chapels, into the new ones that they're building. Like, I don't know. I just was curious about that.

John Dehlin [00:27:02] So I've heard those rumors that the church has to spend a certain amount of its money. I don't know that that's ever been legally validated. But what I do know is that one of the benefits of running a multi hundred billion dollar organization is you can award construction grants and product grants and merchandising grants to friends and family that do your bidding. So this is going to be, I'm guessing a Hundreds of millions of dollars, financial windfall to whatever friends and family of church leaders are awarded. The contracts of the new pews. Well, the removal of all the stuff, auctioning off of all the stuff, and then the purchasing of the new pews and the redesign of the chapels and the moving of the preparation table and just the redesign of the whole chapel. That's going to be a lot of money that someone's making. And I'm pretty sure they're not going to give it to the evangelical Christians. They're going to keep it in the family, so to speak.

Brooklyn Alden [00:28:08] Very good point. Yeah. And just to kind of. I might show a comment Rebecca did here. She talks about this more on their podcast, so definitely go check that out if you're interested. But she says sacrament table has been on the side since the early 1900s, but it was the exclusive policy of the last 25 years. There are some older buildings with it still in the corner. I actually wanted to ask John, you always remember it on the right, correct? Because she did a poll and most people. Yeah, yes. For me, I was like, it's always on the right. Apparently there's some older buildings like she mentioned. But. And then the other thing that she goes more in depth of is that I think this is how they really were primarily in the early days of the church was the pulpit in the center, focus on the priesthood, focus on the sacrament. So there kind of might be going back to that as well, which I think would maybe be a good focus for them. But the main takeaway I get is that I just think it looks like a normal Christian denomination church now, and that feels like a big win for them.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] That was actually the point that I was forgetting that. Thanks for helping me remember, puts the sacrament at the center, which I think is good. And I think from the church's perspective, it makes us feel and look more mainstream Christian than.

Brooklyn Alden [00:29:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] Which clearly is the direction that since Nelson, the church has been going. And I just wanted to quickly give a shout out. I recently interviewed a man named Lance Kennedy on Mormon Stories podcast. He's from Texas. He was the son of a megachurch pastor in Texas and specifically in Dallas. And he freaking joins the church as a teenager. Son of a mega church pastor in Dallas and then talks about joining the church. And I hope you all will tune in. It's going to be released in two weeks. And part of what's mind blowing is he left evangelical Christianity because he felt like it was mainstreaming itself too much and becoming too vanilla and not hardcore enough and too Watered down. So he joins Mormonism because Mormonism was more hardcore, more strict, more, you know, more structured and more rigid because he wanted that. And he's still attending today. But all these changes that the church is making to be more like mainstream Christianity is making him less excited to be a Mormon. And I don't think he's alone. I do. I do think that sociologists have shown that the more distinct and demanding a religion is, the more devout the members are. And so I just want to put in people's mind. Check out Lance Kennedy's interview in a couple weeks. It's fascinating. Do you all have a reaction to that?

Julia [00:31:07] I just haven't thought about the other side of that because I was thinking, like, oh, they're trying to be more welcoming. I identify as atheist, but I attend a Christian denomination. And they have their setup like this with communion at the front. But, like, I didn't think that that would cause somebody to not like the church anymore because they're coming more mainstream Christian. I didn't. I just hadn't thought about that other.

Brooklyn Alden [00:31:25] So it seems like I can totally relate to it. Yeah, I feel like that's how I felt when we were. My family was starting to step away from the church, and I was seeing things change. And when I was fresh out, like, I had lost my faith. But you're still like, love the church so much. And I was like, I don't like how it's changing from what it was. And like, it's a complex feeling when you're like, I don't believe, but I want it to stay. I don't know. I. I felt a lot of complex feelings with the changes that happened to the church, especially over the last 10 years, 15 years or so. It just felt like within, like, five years, it was kind of unrecognizable from what I grew up in. And when I was still. I don't know, I just. I. I think I just always feel like if I'm a member, I want it to be what it was. As odd as that might be. I don't know if that's the right answer, but I just completely relate to that feeling. And I listened to Lance's episode and agreed with him. A lot of points. So definitely check that one out when it comes.

"We Are All Mormons"

John Dehlin [00:32:16] There's a. There's a fun little tempest in a teacup emerging in the comments. I'm going to share it with you two, and I want to hear your reaction. And this is actually related to the. To the lawsuit recently, and I'll Just, I'll just say ahead of time, 10, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, before I was ever excommunicated, I'm on the record as saying I will always identify as Mormon whether or not the church excommunicates me. I've always said that I've viewed Mormonism as a cultural identity marker long, you know, for decades and decades and decades. As soon as I discovered the Jews could be secular or liberal or non believing, I'm like us too. So like time I read a kind potok book at BYU as a student, I'm like, whoa, you could be a liberal Mormon or a progressive Mormon or an ex Mormon. Anyway, way I, I'm so happy that this, this little controversy is emerging. So Chris L. Barker writes, john, you're not a member, so don't say us when talking about the church. That is misleading. Hold on, let me let you read what some others are saying. And then New Richard Jones says, shut up Chris. Which is rude, but I, I appreciate what he's trying to do. And then Trav, our good buddy Trebanon writes Chris L. Barker, John refers to himself as cultural Mormon, like a cultural Jew. That is true. Ryan Scott, PNW says I'm a member and I'll call John one of us all day long. Love you. Bless you, Ryan Scott, bull curts and McConkey sheet says same. And then our wonderful Rebecca Biblioteca writes, we are all Mormon. Ish.

Brooklyn Alden [00:34:03] Good one. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] In the church. Or five like some of us. Rebecca. Or five and a half. I'm just teasing you like I did and not still be a cultural or social Mormon. But, but then bull, Kurt McConkey sheet says, Chris, glad you're here. And I agree. I love having believing faithful Mormons here. Now Brooklyn and Julie, I want to hear your response to this tempest in a teacup.

Brooklyn and Julie on the Mormon Problem

Julia [00:34:28] Yeah, like I, I was excommunicated several years ago. But you, when you're raised in it and you go back, probably denna vu sometimes. Like why not? Like I don't think we should school each other on whether we can use that language. Like.

Brooklyn Alden [00:34:43] Agreed.

Julia [00:34:44] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [00:34:44] I feel like I would identify as Mormon till the day that, I mean when you're. It's such an all encompassing religion that it's everything about your life. Every decision I made in my life was determined by Mormonism. So everything I am has been built up by Mormonism even though I'm gone. Like who I am was created by a Mormon culture. Culture. And that's never gonna leave. And maybe it is after you Step away a little bit. You get more of a perspective on that and realize, you know, how, how Mormon you are even away from the Mormonism. And that might be maybe a little harder to see that perspective sometimes as active members. But yeah, I completely agree. I would identify as Mormon forever because that's how I was raised. So many of my qualities are because I was Mormon and how Mormons are raised. So.

Julia [00:35:31] But also like, yeah, like I'm dating a non Mormon right now. She's never been Mormon, but like the, she doesn't understand these stories that we've heard all growing up or these, these standards or all the things like it's not just like where you're at now. It's. It's just like the whole understanding of your whole background. I don't know, it's just like it's. I think it's silly to just to, to say that like, oh, that you're not Mormon because you're.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] Anyway, it's gatekeeping. There are, there are ex Mormons that don't want anything to do with the

Julia [00:36:01] title and that's fine.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] But, but you know, I'll just say that, you know, it's so lame that the church, I feel like is suing me because they think I've intentionally tried to mislead people that Mormon stories, you know, was church owned and run. That's literally never once in my life been an intention ever at any point. And you'll never find a text or an email ever. That is. Is seriously suggests otherwise. But, but I will say that when Russell M. Nelson abandoned the term and demonized it literally, I was like, yeah, that makes sense because Mormonism is such a broad culture anyway. It doesn't belong to the church. And so I think Russell M. Nelson, I'm not ashamed or afraid to admit when a Mormon prophet gets it right. I think that's one thing Russell M. Nelson got right was that the church doesn't own the term Mormon and shouldn't.

Brooklyn Alden [00:36:59] Yeah, I think it was smart of him to let go because you can't really clasp onto it. It's not like you said, it's not theirs anymore. It's beyond their control no matter what. There's TV shows, there's musical. Like they have zero control over this phrase. So I do think it was kind of the right thing to lessen the clutch on that. And I don't understand how they think they're gonna put that toothpaste back in the tube.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] I think they just realize that

Julia [00:37:25] hasn't

John Dehlin [00:37:25] served them well from a business standpoint, from a marketing standpoint, to abandon the brand. And I think they wish they had it back. But that. That's a great segue to our next topic.

Chris L. Barker on Being a Christian

Julia [00:37:36] Julia, Actually, before we go, there's a comment here. I don't. I hope it's okay if I share this. Yeah, um, it goes in straight to this, too, where he says, this is Chris L. Barker. He says, can I consider myself a Christian if I don't believe in the resurrected Jesus? And my thoughts are 100%. Like, I don't. Yeah, I don't believe in a resurrected Jesus. To me, Christianity is more like, am I treating my fellow men well? Like, am I. Am I. Am I being kind? Am I helping the fatherless? Am I helping the widows? Like, am I. Am I giving up myself like Christ did? So that's how I see Christianity. But, yeah, this does segue really well into this next story. But do you guys have answers to that?

Brooklyn Alden [00:38:11] No. Completely agree. Same mic drop.

John Dehlin [00:38:14] Yeah, mic drop. Oh, really quick. Jared Jones, a huge thanks to my buddy Jared Jones for the super chat.

Brooklyn Alden [00:38:21] Thanks, Jared.

John Dehlin [00:38:22] Jared, we love you. Jared's. Jared and his wife have been on Mormon stories. Check out their episode. But Jared's. Jared's a great guy. Thanks, Jared. All right, go ahead, Julia. Or Brooklyn, whoever's got this.

Department of Defense Lists Mormons as Non-Christians

Julia [00:38:34] Yeah, so this. This is probably the biggest story that's been going around right now. I don't know. I've had people that. People were in the comments earlier saying this was like a nothing burger. This isn't really a. This isn't really a big deal. But this is the Department of Defense. They listed the LDS Church or the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints as they list. They did not list them among the Christians. And this happened on June 4th. And so the first thing I have is just a news clip giving, like, an overview of. Of this little of the story.

John Dehlin [00:39:03] All right, I'll. I'll roll the clip. All right, Jake, thank you. Our other top story tonight, the Department of Defense dropping the Christian designation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The department dropping a new memorandum removing 180 religious faiths from their list. Notably, the list no longer includes atheists, pagans and Wiccans. As for the LDS Church, though, it remains recognized by the department in the new list, but has been listed outside of the category of Christian. Now, both of Utah's senators reacting on X. First, Senator Mike Lee saying, quote, can anyone tell me why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was left out of the list of Christian churches and Senator John Curtis saying, quote, latter Day Saints are among the most patriotic, service oriented individuals in our country. They are also unequivocally Christian. Just look at who is in the name of the church. It is unacceptable for a government entity to characterize the faith in a manner that contradicts the religions of own foundational tenets. I am working now to ensure a correction is made.

Department of Defense Drops The LDS Church From List of Christian Churches

Julia [00:40:10] End of quote.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] We've reached out to the church for comment, but they say they do not have a statement to provide at this time.

Julia [00:40:20] So I don't know if we have quick reactions. My, my first thing is that the church had no, no comment to make, which I think is interesting because there's a lot of influencers that, that gave a lot of backlash because of this, because they were not listed. So I wonder if the church was like, we don't really need to give a statement. This is just. My opinion is the church didn't really feel like they needed to because they have their people doing it for them.

John Dehlin [00:40:41] I mean, when you have two US Senators that immediately are taking to Twitter. I think, I think I saw that Mike Lee called Donald Trump directly and had a conversation with Trump about this very omission. And I think Lee reported back to his following. Don't worry, I've talked to Trump and I anticipate a change very soon.

Brooklyn Alden [00:41:06] That's the number one thing I want the President to be worrying about in today's state of affairs.

John Dehlin [00:41:11] Okay, it's mislabeled a little bit. Let's just say you were blind to any reaction from the public. And again, here's a look at what the list kind of looked like. It's got Christian Church of Nazarene, Christian Evangelical, Christian Lutheran, Christian Methodist, and then right below Christian Seventh Day Adventist, it's got Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints. Would y' all have had either your former Mormon selves or your current. What was Yalls native reaction? Not influenced by everyone else? I'm just curious.

Julia [00:41:47] My ex former reaction was just like their name is really long. So like if you pull that, if you pull that back up, if you would have put Christian Dash and then the church, it would have bled off onto the gray space. So that was just. My initial reaction was just that it's so long. But I think I would have been offended if they, if they didn't list me as a Christian, as an active member. And like, it's like, I don't feel offended now. But like, I do think that maybe we can discuss this too. I do think the LDS Church they are Christian. And so I don't know why that. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:19] What's your take?

Brooklyn Alden [00:42:19] I do agree with that. I still, I mean I, I guess I understand we're far, you know, we're different than all of those other Christian churches listed there where those are really quite similar in terms of just, you know, Protestant religions. Definitely as a member. I remember I was always like, no, we're Christian, we are Christian and I will defend that. And I still feel absolutely argued. I think, you know, John says it perfectly. Do you follow Christ? You're a Christian. I don't know how else you need to qualify it. It's in the name Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I completely agree it should be qualified as Christian. Do I think I would be like even as an active member probably that concerned about this issue in particular? Probably not. I don't see it as a super high stakes situation just from my understanding of it so far. I feel like it's probably someone working in office typing it up, not even thinking about it. Maybe they don't have that much understanding of LDS fully. It could be like it doesn't fit, taken off, whatever, like, you know, I think it's probably just some more like administration clerical thing that went down that has sparked an actually interesting conversation. But I agree that the original thing is probably a bit of nothing burger like you said.

John Dehlin [00:43:34] I, I, I can just share being the oldest person in this probably live stream other than Rebecca. No offense, Rebecca. No, I'm just teasing. You know, growing up in, in Katy, Texas in an evangelical town, you know, I drive by the First Baptist Church of Katy and there'd be a sign up, you know, Mormons and other cults and I, there were, there were girls that liked me or that I liked in high school whose parents wouldn't let us go out because I was a Mormon. Like I can see why. And you know, there's the God Makers movie that came out in the early 80s by a Decker that painted Mormons as, as cult as cults. And you know, I can see why for a long, long time Mormons in the church and I have felt defensive about being labeled a cult and is being labeled non Christian. So I know I've lived where this sensitivity comes from, which is, which is part of why I probably would have been offended, especially after having recently interviewed a Seventh Day Adventist that Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists made the Christian designation according to this list but Mormons didn't even Christian Scientists. But you know, I do think it is a tempest in a teapot, but I can see where it comes from. But we're going to talk in just a bit about why we suspect this designation or D designation was made. But we, if you want, we can show the next clip.

Military Religious Recognition List

Julia [00:45:09] Yeah, so this, so this next clip is just explaining why 180 religions were taken off of the list. So the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints was not taken off the list. It just was not listed under Christian. And they said they took off pagans and Wiccans and atheists, which makes sense because of the reason why they were taken off. So if we want to just play that, just to explain.

John Dehlin [00:45:28] Okay, yeah. Louis, what does it actually even mean to be a military recognized religion? Does it just mean the 180 that got dropped off the list, they don't

Brooklyn Alden [00:45:36] exist, I mean, anymore?

John Dehlin [00:45:38] No, that's not, that's not it at all. Ashen, what is going on? As the Pentagon acknowledges that this reduction, this consolidation is taking place, they note that, look, we accept all religious faiths. We are not imposing on any specific religion. What this is all about are specific two letter religious codes that it's, in other words, shorthand that chaplains can use to determine what members of which faiths belong to the units that they're serving.

Julia [00:46:04] Yeah. Okay, and then the next slide, I,

John Dehlin [00:46:08] I, I'll just say really quickly. I, you know, it, my understanding, and I don't know a lot about this is that if you're serving in the military and you need spiritual support while, while on tour, while on duty, there are chaplains there that can support you. And it does. I don't know what this means exactly, but I have sympathy for atheists or non religious. I mean, if we look at the nuns, the rise of the nuns, the Pew Foundation's research, the largest religious denomination in the United States in 2026 is those who no longer affiliate with any religious tradition. So I, on the one hand, I can say why would you make atheists a religious designation? Or why would you make Wiccans a religious designation that doesn't make sense, or pagans take them off? I can see that logic, but I can also say why should a third, a full third of the military that doesn't affiliate with the traditional religious tradition potentially not have spiritual or emotional or psychological support, whatever support a chaplain would give, or whatever benefits that would come, I assume they have this list because there's benefits from being associated with the institution on the list. And so my biggest concern is why would a third of the military, if it reflects the general public not also have access to the benefits of whatever the benefits are being on this list if they just don't happen to affiliate with a particular approved church?

Julia [00:47:49] That's a good question.

Brooklyn Alden [00:47:50] I completely agree. I don't really like that any of them were dropped off, honestly. Like, why are we dropping wicked and pagan? Is this not America where freedom of religion is like our bag? It's the main thing we love here. And if people want to be wicked, let them be wicked. They can deserve support. And I, I don't understand honestly why that be dropped off. I'm more offended by all of that than anything to do with. Did it say Christian next to the church? Like they're getting the support they're getting on that list? I don't understand why people are removed. And yeah, for the same reason John said, like, where are the resources for them? And even just the recognition of like, Wiccan is a legitimate religion for a lot of people. And it's not what I think most people perceive it to be. Normal people are Wiccan, and I don't understand why that wouldn't be represented because some of us, it's just as legitimate looking as the rest of them.

Mormon Chaplain on Religious Chaplains

John Dehlin [00:48:46] So go ahead, Julia. And then I want to say something about that, but go ahead first.

Julia [00:48:50] Yeah, I just have some questions. So I don't really know how all of this works. So is it the, the active military that whatever religions that they are part of, whether it's whatever, do they then have these, these chaplains that come and then like give them sermons or, or aid them and with blessings or whatever? Like, how can someone explain that? Because maybe. Because my thought was maybe there's just not enough people in the military that affiliate with these other groups. That was my thought, but I don't know. I don't know enough.

John Dehlin [00:49:18] So I'm going to just look up what a chaplain's doing the military. And it says military chaplains are commissioned officers who provide spiritual guidance, moral support and counseling to service members and their families. They conduct religious services. So they conduct services, perform ceremonies across various faiths, and advise commanders on ethical issues while offering 100 confidential support for personal, marital or operational stress.

Julia [00:49:46] And are they paid by the. By the military, I'm assuming?

John Dehlin [00:49:49] Yeah, yeah, it's paid. It's a paid position.

Julia [00:49:51] So I wonder if there was like a polling or something that. Where they figured out, oh, we don't actually need this money because we don't have.

John Dehlin [00:49:58] I don't know. I think we're going to see in a second But I literally think it's like Pete Hegseth's, you know, white Christian nationalist pastor Guy had groups that he likes and he doesn't like, and somehow that gets imposed on the list as a part of, like, Pete Hegseth's worldview that. I know that sounds harsh. I just. I just want to say really quickly before we move on. When I. I grew up in Katy, Texas, and there was a prince, a family, a multifamily family called the Prince family that was heavily influential in the Houston, Texas, stake. So, like, there was a Douglas Prince that was like a stake president. There was a bill, several Bill princes and Warren princes and Douglas princes that were bishops across various wards in Houston. The Prince family was a really big deal at Houston growing up. And one of the granddaughters of the Prince family, Christina Prince, she was younger than me. She was a friend of mine. I babysat her and her family. We were close friends. In high school. When I was in the mtc, she sent me a letter, and it said, john, I've been investigating Mormonism. And that temple ceremony you just went through was heavily influenced by the Masonic Lodge. And I just read a book about it, and I thought you should know. And I've told the story of Mormon stories before, but did you ever hear what my reaction was to Tina when she sent me that letter in the mtc?

Julia [00:51:24] I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:51:25] I said, never write me again,

Brooklyn Alden [00:51:29] like a good Mormon boy.

John Dehlin [00:51:32] Anyway, Tina went on to join the military and she became a Wiccan. And I thought, oh, that's creepy. Witches doing potions and cursing people. No, it's like the love of nature. It's like agnostic is another word we're afraid of. But my understanding is a lot about Wiccanism is just a love of nature.

Brooklyn Alden [00:51:57] Yeah.

Julia [00:51:57] Is it like, intentions?

Brooklyn Alden [00:51:58] Not what people perceive it to be. And so I just think these people are not looking into what that is to people, what it means in people's lives. And just like, ah, knock it off the list. Because it doesn't seem legitimate to my Christian worldview. And, yeah, I don't like that.

John Dehlin [00:52:12] And pagan is the same type of thing. Pagan sounds bad because for millennia, traditional monotheistic religions saw paganism as the really bad thing. But I literally think paganism means just a worship and a respect for nature.

Julia [00:52:31] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [00:52:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:32] Which I respect. Anyway, I think we've beat a dead taper here. What's next?

No Religion on the Military Chaplain List

Guest [00:52:38] The.

Julia [00:52:39] So this is just the headline for themilitary.com where I'm going to get these next little quotes. So this one, the top one with a little red arrow. It's just explaining what you kind of what you just explained, John, where it says it is designed. This list is designed to allow chaplains to quickly look at the religion, the religious composition of their units and determine how they structure resources to best provide the war fighters of all. Of all faith groups. And then it says down below with this second arrow, it's listing off these different religious groups and it says the LDS is not recognized. And what I think that they mean. I don't know why they word it this way, but they're not recognized as Christian. And then here's this list from military.com where it is showing you all these different. So 31 is, if I'm not mistaken, 31 were kept and 180 were dropped.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] Oh, it kept agnostic. That's good. I didn't see that.

Julia [00:53:29] Okay. Yeah, so that's. That's good.

Brooklyn Alden [00:53:31] The dropped atheist.

Julia [00:53:32] Dropped atheist, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] Like I don't think. I don't know if people know this, but you can be atheist and agnostic. All agnostic means is you. You don't believe that anyone really knows for sure.

Julia [00:53:44] So I think most of it.

Brooklyn Alden [00:53:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julia [00:53:48] Like I don't know for certain.

John Dehlin [00:53:50] Yeah, go ahead, Julia.

Julia [00:53:52] Oh, yeah, just people have said like you can. People are usually agnostic atheist or agnostic theist. And then they have their different. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:58] Anyway, so it's weird that they would keep agnostic, which is basically everyone on the list technically.

Julia [00:54:04] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [00:54:05] I wish they'd keep atheism because that's also. People don't think of as. I can consider it a religion. It's a theism. It's just without religion is literally what it means. It just means I'm living a religion. You know, I see it as a religion to live your life in that way. And you have to think about how you're going to go about everything in your life, just how you do in a religion. Just, you know, usually the way I live atheism is through humanism and channeling all that just as I would a religion and spirituality. And so I don't love that atheism was dropped off. I think it's just as important in people's lives as Christianity can be to Christians.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] Yeah, it's. It's a worldview. Right. Okay. And I'm going to correct myself because it looks like there is a no religion section. So they.

Julia [00:54:50] There's an other and a. No, I was wondering about that because so many were dropped. So it just seems like they're shoving them into these little categories of no

John Dehlin [00:54:58] religion or other religions. So I, I correct myself there. But again, yeah, why should Wiccans not have someone who most closely aligns with their worldview? I mean, I, I don't know if

Brooklyn Alden [00:55:12] it's those ones in pagan. Me. Yeah, definitely bothers me more than atheism because that is a significant part of people's lives. And I just don't understand why we wouldn't be.

Guest [00:55:20] I don't know.

Brooklyn Alden [00:55:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:21] Maybe transparency about why they made the decisions they made and how they made them would, would be, it would have been useful here.

Brooklyn Alden [00:55:28] Yeah. Maybe there wasn't a significant enough population to merit putting it on the list. Who knows? But I. Yeah, I just know how it makes me feel when I hear it was dropped.

John Dehlin [00:55:37] Yeah.

Julia [00:55:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:39] Okay. What. What else?

Pete Hegseth on the US Military Classification

Julia [00:55:41] Okay, so this is the New York Times coverage of this that says Pentagon, again, revives religious categories for truths. And so I'm pretty sure because of the backlash. Also, I do think it's interesting that the LDS Church seemed to be the loudest spokesperson of those that were dropped or, or. And the elders church wasn't dropped. It just wasn't listed as Trishan. It's just interesting to me that those seem to be the loudest voices rather than, rather than atheists or rather than Wiccans or rather than any other group that was any of the 80, 180 that was dropped. Yeah. So this is just their coverage of. So they, The, The Department of Department of Defense has now revised that list. So they changed it and then they changed it again. So.

John Dehlin [00:56:21] And. But interestingly, they didn't make Mormons Christian.

Julia [00:56:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:27] Oh, we're going to show that.

Julia [00:56:28] We're going to show that.

Brooklyn Alden [00:56:29] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:30] I went ahead and just grabbed. I wanted to find out if there was any information on what Hegseth thinks about Mormons and if there was any possible justification out there. And I stumbled on this article from Mother Jones and it's entitled here's what Pete Hegseth's Religion Believes about Mormons. And this was why I speculated that maybe it was just Hegseth's Christian nationalist guru or his own opinions that maybe influenced this decision. But I'll just read a couple excerpts from the article. It says one theological point of distinction between LDS and other Christian denominations is that LDS members don't accept the Apostles Creed because it states that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all one entity. In contrast, Perry, the Christian nationalism scholar, and I think that's Hegseth's boy Noted, the LDS Church teaches that they are three distinct beings from Wilson's description of his ideal version of America. And I think Wilson might be someone influential in Hegseth's life. From Wilson's description of his ideal version of America, it appears that everyone would have to live by the Apostles Creed whether they believed in it or not in Wilson's Christian America, said Perry, quote, anything that falls outside the doctrinal vision that Wilson or crec, one of you guys can Google that if you want crew have would fall outside of what they consider to be kind of a true belief in Christianity. So there's kind of an exclusivity that's being cultivated and I'm, I'm mindful here of kind of the no true Scotsman's fallacy where you know, you're, you're not pure enough of whatever thing somebody wants you to be pure of in their gatekeeping. And I'll just add a couple more little sentences it says. In an email, Wilson confirmed that CREC's version of Christianity doesn't include Mormons. Quote, we would consider the Mormons to be a non Christian faith with Christian terminology, he wrote, and added that his church would consider LDS people to be polytheists. So that's an interesting take.

Brooklyn Alden [00:58:58] Wait, what?

John Dehlin [00:58:59] Traditional Christians don't consider Mormons Christian because number one, they don't sign up to the Apostles Creed which see God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as one. That's how they define Christians. And Joseph Smith taught that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost were separate beings at one point. And that leads to the point of polytheism because that means God and Jesus are at least two gods. And then Joseph Smith added this, this also additional belief that as, as God is man once was. No, as man is God once was. And as God is man may become. Mormons believe that Mormons will become God someday. And in that sense, Mormons are polytheists. And traditional Christians don't think that polytheists get to call themselves Christian by their definition. What do y' all think about Christians, traditional Christians being able to define who's a Christian based on a long standing, centuries long tradition of what it means to be Christian for them.

Julia [01:00:06] It reminds me of a church trying to say whether you're Mormon or not and trying to sue. I don't know. I, I don't like that. Like if, like. So you just believe in a different type of Jesus or a different. I don't know that. I don't know. That just seems silly.

Brooklyn Alden [01:00:25] I find it interesting and I know this is just how it's been forever, but that their kind of qualification is more around who's God, who do we consider God? Rather than just like, do you follow Jesus? Because the God is the same God from the Bible, that's the same Jewish God, that's the Islamic God, at least kind of how I see it, you know, God of the Bible, that's what they're talking about. And that falls under so many religions that aren't just Christians. So why are we even talking about that? Let's just talk about Christ. If it's about Christian church of Jesus Christ, like, yeah, I don't really see why that's the qualification. Rather than like, do you believe, Joe? I mean, that goes back to the question, like, if you believe in the resurrection, are you Christian? I don't know. I don't know why we're trying to qualify everything and fit everything into little boxes when it just, just doesn't work that way.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] That's actually an interesting point. Also, it's hypocritical. If Mormons don't like being disqualified as Christian, why are they gatekeeping around the term Mormon?

Brooklyn Alden [01:01:27] Yeah, yeah, that was a great point.

Julia [01:01:29] Yeah, I love that.

John Dehlin [01:01:32] I, I'm a, I think McKay Coppins, he's an Atlantic Monthly writer. I think he's pretty smart. And so I wanted to share his comment as well as. I mean, we can't do an episode these days without referencing Jasmine rapely. Right. But says again, I say this with love to my fellow Latter Day Saints. The sooner you give up trying to convince the religious right to validate your faith, the sooner you'll know peace. Are we real Christians? Only one opinion matters and it's not Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. I love, I love that take from K. Poppins and actually Lance Kennedy again, who we're going to be releasing his interview in two weeks. He said the same thing. He said Mormons should stop begging like they want scraps at the table of traditional so called Christians. They should just be proud of who they are, own who they are, and even embrace that they're viewed as separate and apart from mainstream Christianity. Because that can be a feature, not a bug. And I would add, especially now that Christianity is getting such a bad rep nationwide as being associated with white nationalism, as being associated with bigotry and racism and anti immigration and stuff. There are real benefits to the Mormon Church being viewed as a peculiar people.

Brooklyn Alden [01:02:59] Yeah, that's the phrase I was gonna use. We're the peculiar people. Like why are we not owning it? And that was Mormonism. I knew. And anytime I was like, embarrassed about, you know, not drinking coffee or whatever, my mom's like, we are peculiar people and be proud of it. And like, that is ingrained in me so hard. So I'm just like, I don't know why they're not. They don't love being unique. And yeah, it's totally all plays into Lance's episode. It's gonna need it. You're talking about. Because I feel like he does mention this of just then, if you're all lumped into all of those other ones that say Christian, what's to stop you when you have a bad day at church to being like, well, I'll just go to that other Christian church because we're all the same, you know, like, we're. I just think the more distinct you are, the more ingrained people are going to be in your culture and religion. And they're not doing themselves any favors because people are just going to be like, I'll go to the church down the road. They serve coffee and donuts there.

Alternating Christian and Latter Day Saint Religious Codes

John Dehlin [01:03:56] It's kind of pick me energy. Anytime Holly is referenced on Mormon Stories is a good episode for me.

Brooklyn Alden [01:04:06] Well, all of my Mormon culture is built up from what my mom told me. I mean, that's probably how we all are, right? But I'm like, my mom said, so

John Dehlin [01:04:16] I'll read. Jocelyn, really quick quote. I've seen some Latter Day Saints read a lot into this. Maybe it's really. Maybe it really is prejudice. Maybe the government is taking a stance on the Trinity. But this isn't the government as a whole, but rather how religions are coded in the military. So that, for example, a chaplain can quickly understand how many religious adherents there are in a given unit. Removing the label Christian altogether makes a lot of sense to me. It avoids the divisive categorizations and ensures that Latter Day Saint servicemen and women can easily gain access to the religious resources they may require. As a Latter Day Saint, I consider myself to be a Christian and a follower of Christ, but I know not everyone agrees with me. And I don't necessarily expect the government to weigh in on that. I actually think Jasmine's smart.

Julia [01:05:01] And yeah, that's a good comment.

Brooklyn Alden [01:05:04] Yeah, I agree with pretty much those points. And when I saw it was moved, I was like, yeah, I think they did the right thing by just taking Christian out. Like, okay, eliminate the problem like this. No one can have it.

The Origins of the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [01:05:16] That takes us to the last. The last, I think slides here. Here's the revised list. It was actually revised A day or two later.

Julia [01:05:23] Yeah, it was really fast.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] And what they did is they just took off the prefix designations and now you'll see Church of Christ, Church of God, Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints, you know, Christian, non denominational, just all without that designation. And some would say that's a backhanded response that they were so opposed to, to categorizing Mormons as Christian that they avoided having to do what would be uncomfortable for them, which is recognizing Mormons as Christian, by then removing the Christian designation altogether. I think that's probably true.

Julia [01:06:01] You think it's true that.

Brooklyn Alden [01:06:04] I think they could have just been eliminating the problem because then they're probably like, what next religion do we not know enough about that are going to come out and saying, well, we're Christian too. Put it next to us. And maybe they're just like, don't worry about it. But I can see both ways. I have no idea. I think whoever did this little type up should come forward and say, this is what I was thinking. It wasn't that big of a deal, guys.

John Dehlin [01:06:23] Like, yeah, we're speculating. I would say it's probably many things, but probably both that they wanted to avoid future controversies like this. But I guarantee you those, those Christian nationalists and a lot of those evangelical Christians never want the Mormon Church recognized as a Christian church if for nor the reason that we're so wealthy and powerful and we're shrinking in the United States at a slower rate than they're shrinking in many instances. They don't want to give us any positive press.

Julia [01:06:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:58] Anyway.

Brooklyn Alden [01:06:58] Yeah, no, that totally makes sense to me as well. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:02] All right, well, is that that story?

Julia [01:07:04] Yeah, that's the story.

John Dehlin [01:07:06] All right, what's the next.

Kyle McKay's Fireside Talk

Julia [01:07:08] So this next one is the Kyle McKay fireside. And this happened on June 7, 2026. And so what happened? So I guess we'll talk about Kyle McKay really fast.

John Dehlin [01:07:17] Okay, I'll go to the next slide.

Julia [01:07:21] Yeah. So he was sustained as A General Authority 70 of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in 2018. And he was in the fifth quorum. He served in the fifth quorum of the 70. He's a church historian, which I thought was really interesting, and a recorder executive executive director of the Church History department. So he knows a lot about history. He served several callings. He's been in the young men's. He's been elder elders quorum. He served a mission in Japan and there's just like little bits about him. But he gave a fireside.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] Can I just Ask a question. So is he the church historian just like Marlon Jensen and, and Carl Snow or Turley or whoever were church historians?

Julia [01:08:02] I didn't, I don't know. I didn't think he was, but maybe he is. Let me, let me check on that.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] That's what that seems to suggest, and that's significant. If he made these faux pas as the.

Julia [01:08:15] It is him. As far as what Google's telling me, he is actually the official church historian,

John Dehlin [01:08:20] which means he's probably an attorney, not a historian, but I will.

Julia [01:08:22] Well, he talks about that. He talks about being an attorney, but

John Dehlin [01:08:25] then also I think he was RFM's companion on radio Free Mormon's Mission, I'm pretty sure in Japan.

Julia [01:08:36] Wow, that's really cool.

John Dehlin [01:08:37] I think they served either in the same mission at the same time or even as missionary companions. And so shout out. We always love rfm and shout out to rfm.

Julia [01:08:45] Yeah, cool. Okay. He gave, There was a state conference and he gave us this talk in the Yukon, Oklahoma state. And the talk was, was, was pretty good. He talked about the sacrament, he talked about the priesthood, and he talked. It was just a general, you know, a talk that you'd expect to hear at a state conference. And what was, what happened though, is this was released and then the next day, if you want to go to the next slide, we just got a

John Dehlin [01:09:07] comment from Mary S. Curry that he was RFM's first companion in Japan. So thanks. Thanks. Mary S. Curry. Oh, what's this?

Julia [01:09:17] Yeah, so the video was posted and I think it was taken down the same day, if not the next day. Yes, they know what they did. Yeah. And I don't know why he would do this, but we can keep going. But there's. It got taken down.

John Dehlin [01:09:31] I'll just say the way that this sort of stuff happens is we get emails. So like someone was in at this, at this presentation, they were annoyed by it, and so they emailed me and Rebecca and RFM and Bill. Real. We constantly, every day get kind of these whistleblowers or people on the ground or insiders that send us stuff. So I, I actually received the email on this along with Rebecca and RFM and Bill and others. And I, I didn't have time to act on it, but Rebecca, of course did. So, you know, as soon as we start talking about it on the Internet, it gets taken down, which I love. Anyway, Julia, I didn't mean to interrupt, but I like.

Julia [01:10:14] Yeah, no, this is great. So, yeah, I got taken down because of some controversial things that he said at the beginning before he even got into the meat of his talk, which is really interesting. So it's like, probably the first five minutes or six minutes or so of his talk were really troublesome. So what I've done is I've shared the. The four most controversial things, and then I have some commentary in between. So. So this first clip is called the Revenge of the Grasshoppers.

God's Love for the Soul

John Dehlin [01:10:36] Okay. All right.

Brooklyn Alden [01:10:39] Foreign.

Guest [01:10:49] It has been just a joy to spend this weekend with you and especially the last hour. Plus, I've been so moved by what has been said and by what the Lord has been telling me. I hope that his spirit may continue and that I won't get in the way of whatever God is trying to teach you. I've had a couple of experiences that have been less than spiritual. One, coming out of the fact that maybe you can see it, but when you're on this stage, there's two just great big lights. And I call this the Revenge of the Grasshoppers. Because when I was a child, you know what you do with a grasshopper and a magnifying glass. And so for all of those that I sent to the other side,

Brooklyn Alden [01:11:36] now

Guest [01:11:36] I'm Got the same kind of light here on me, and I'm wearing glasses, and I've burned holes in my retina here. So I'm grateful for this light. I'm especially grateful that we could sing this Little light of mine.

John Dehlin [01:11:49] Holy moly.

Julia [01:11:51] Yeah. What were your thought? What were your reactions?

John Dehlin [01:11:56] I'm like, that reminds me of Jeffrey Dahmer. Like, people who, like, torture or kill animals for fun as a kid. That's associated with a personality disorder called antisocial personality disorder, which means you don't have a conscience.

Brooklyn Alden [01:12:12] Like, I put you on the psychopathy checklist. That's, like, the top thing if you're harming animals. Like, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:19] And, like, I don't want to. Like, I did. I did shoot a bird. I had a BB gun. I was excited to learn it. I was in Oregon, busy. My grandpa. I shot one bird, and I watched it spiral to the ground, and I got sick to my stomach, and I never wanted to kill a bird again. You know what I mean?

Julia [01:12:35] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [01:12:35] That's what you learned. And you had that feeling of, like, new. This didn't feel right. And, yeah, had a learning experience.

John Dehlin [01:12:43] Now, I never felt that about cockroaches, but I would never have done. I would have never pulled the legs off of grasshoppers. You know what I mean?

Julia [01:12:50] Or, like, burn them with magnifying glass.

John Dehlin [01:12:53] Yeah, No, I would. I Wouldn't. I would never have done that. So, I don't know. Maybe that's a normal thing. Maybe we shouldn't be too hard on them. But that was my reaction. What was yours? Brooklyn.

Brooklyn Alden [01:13:02] Yeah. I mean, it feels like right on the edge of, like, oh, is it, you know, boys messing around? But it does feel like you could tell a little bit when it goes over the line of, like, if you're pulling legs, it feels like you're getting a certain enjoyment out of the torture of it and not just like, oh, cool to set things on fire. I don't know. Like, obviously, I feel like we probably burned ants when we were a kid or something with the magnifying. But I even remember at the time being like, this is odd, you know? So it's right on the line, just odd. And I'm just like. I think zero awareness of how it's gonna sound coming across. I think in a few things that I saw from him, it seems like he just is kind of up there trying to, like, crack jokes and be a bit funny, and it just comes across as, like, weird the whole time and just kind of unaware to me.

"In the Elevator With John"

Julia [01:13:48] Another thought that I had while I was playing it was that as somebody who works or, like, helps set up the studio, make sure the lighting is right on these people. Like, I. It seemed kind of critical. Like, I hope that person didn't feel bad who was setting this up. I don't. It looks like they're in some kind of stadium. I don't know if they're in a stake building. But anyway, I would just feel bad for the person who set this all up on the stage and had the lightings going, and then he gets criticized by a general authority. Like, that would make me feel really bad, so.

Brooklyn Alden [01:14:11] That's such a good point, Julia. Yeah. I did theater tech and worked those light decks and stuff work for me.

John Dehlin [01:14:18] Good lighting and sound is one of the hardest things in the world. Really quick. Yeah. I think now that I'm thinking about it a little bit, Julia, it's the torture part. Like, I would kill a grasshopper if I felt like it was eating my garden or step out a cockroach if it was grossing me out and it was in my kitchen. But I would never want to prolong the pain and suffering of anything.

Brooklyn Alden [01:14:46] Yeah. That's where it crosses over the gray line to me. Yeah.

Julia [01:14:49] Yeah. Lack of empathy.

John Dehlin [01:14:52] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [01:14:52] And then also it's like a curiosity for that feeling, which is just odd. Sorry, John, Go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:14:59] Yeah. And even if you. Even if you you know, did that. And maybe you don't even believe that anymore. It is a little weird that you wouldn't have the presence to not tell people that as like a high level spiritual leader.

Julia [01:15:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:15] I mean, on the one hand, you're glad he's not filtering and hiding and lying about who he is, but it does show a certain lack of tact or discretion or awareness.

Julia [01:15:25] And that's what these four clips are, I feel like is just him being unaware of his audience. It seems like.

John Dehlin [01:15:31] Okay.

Julia [01:15:32] But anyway. Yeah, okay, okay. So this next one was, I think, the one that got the most attention. And I've just labeled it racial comments. And then I have some commentary after this. But, yeah, we can just play it.

Racial Comments in the Mormon hymn

Guest [01:15:46] Grateful for this light. I'm especially grateful that we could sing this Little Light of Mine. That's a song where white people try to sing like black people. And we. It's our hymn. But I want you to know that we sang it in our ward. I happen to be visiting our ward because I don't get to go to my home ward. And we sang it for intermediate or something. Him. And I'm sitting next to our second counselor there on the stand, and he's singing this Little Light of Mine, I'm gonna let it shine. And I went, dude, I wanted to turn to him and say, you know, you're white. And. And he was saying, no, no, no. I'm an African slave is what I am. And I'm singing Suwannee river.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] And I.

Guest [01:16:33] Anyway, it's. I'm so glad it's in our hymnbook. It does make you move just a little bit. And then there's another hymn in there that makes you move even more. I'm gonna live so God can use me. I don't. I like that one. I'm grateful that we can rejoice in our music.

Brooklyn Alden [01:16:54] I haven't cringed that hard and I don't know how long. It's just like. I don't even. It's hard to even comment on. Just.

Julia [01:17:01] Yeah, gross. And as somebody who's his. Who is a historian and a historian. A historian. Like, why would you say that? Like, he is quoting somebody else who's saying, oh, I'm an African slave. Like, why are you saying that? Why are you even sharing this with this audience? Like, I. It does sort of seem like he's trying to be funny, like you were saying in Brooklyn. Like, he's trying to crack jokes. But this was very distasteful.

Brooklyn Alden [01:17:24] How unaware. Yeah. Why are you saying the word slave? When you're up at a microphone, like ever. I just. Yeah. Unless we're like talking about, you know, obviously racial issues are. It just the whole thing is baffling on to me. You can kind of tell he catches himself and is like, oh, I'm going off in the wrong direction. Because he's like, oh, he says something Swanny River. Oh, well, anyways, you know, and just, it just is a glimpse into what else could be lying beneath the surface that I don't like.

Julia [01:17:52] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:53] Like to imply. I mean, he's clearly referring to African spiritualism or evangelical black church movement in the sense that they clap and they stand and they. But that's not just blacks. Like, that's not just black people. Excuse me? Like, like assembly of God churches have white people and they stand and they sing and they. So why is it only black Christians that move? First of all, that's.

Brooklyn Alden [01:18:25] Yeah, I didn't like his reference to like getting up and moving. You know, just so many. He like hit so many points of like, please don't go there. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:34] And then he's like, I'm a gona. Like he's kind of making fun of that colloquial, I don't know, regional language. But white people. Have you ever been to Appalachia ever? People. Lots of white people talk that way too. So why.

Brooklyn Alden [01:18:51] Yeah, other people saying that in the comments too. Of like, that's not exclusive. He's almost telling on himself of like that you immediately perceive that as something racial and now you're turning it into. And now making the weird comment. And you're the one. I don't know. It's just the weird. Like that could have totally not even been. Been the attention to begin with. Like, it's.

Julia [01:19:11] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [01:19:11] You don't even know what to say about it. The whole thing's so odd. And I just don't know how people say the things they do sometimes.

Julia [01:19:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:17] And why would he turn to a guy, a Mormon sitting next to him and say, dude, you know you're not an African slave. Like.

Julia [01:19:27] Well, I think he said. I think he says, you know, you're not black. And then the man says, no, I am an African slave. So I don't. I don't want to put words I don't even understand.

Mormon Pro-Wokeism Talk

Brooklyn Alden [01:19:35] Yeah, I didn't follow it that much either.

John Dehlin [01:19:37] Of like, he's telling us you're singing a church approved hymn and you're like, dude, you know you're not black, right? Yeah, why would you. What?

Julia [01:19:50] Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:19:52] if I'm Trying to overanalyze this. I do think there's a degree to which there's a feeling amongst conservatives that the left overreached with its cultural standards or values over the past 10 or 20 years. And I think that has recently been been deemed kind of anti wokeism. And I do think that there's a degree to which conservatives who haven't liked liberal or progressive ideologies for a long time have felt validated at their antipathy towards progressive or liberal values by being able to kind of like say, yeah, now that wokeism's dead, I can say an off color or a kind of a conservative thing because now society has rejected wokeism. And I almost feel like that's kind of what makes him feel like he can talk like this is because it feels like the left lost. Wokeism lost. And so now he's safe to throw a little anti woke jab here and there. And I just, I wish I would love our leaders, I would love LDS Church leaders to rise above that kind of cultural garbage. You know, either side, right?

Brooklyn Alden [01:21:11] Either side a better example. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:14] Maybe we're being too hard on him. I don't know. What do you think, Julia? You're.

Julia [01:21:17] I don't know. Yeah, I really don't. Like, I'm studying to be a historian so I'm taking a bunch of classes and I'm taking a bunch from like the African American studies and like how can you say that? Like, how can you stand up there and say things that he's saying? Like, it's just. I really don't like it. I do have some slides after this because he references two hymns and I was in a. I just went to the church, the LDS church a month or so ago for my kids primary program. And while I was there I noticed that there was. They had the normal green hymn book and then they had another folder that had all these laminated hymns in it and they had a bunch of these in. They were included because I think these

John Dehlin [01:21:54] are going to come out in a new edition of.

Julia [01:21:57] Yeah. So I think they're working on a new hymn book and that just amazing. Yeah. And so like one thing that I noticed was these next slides where there was a lot of African. I don't know if they're folk traditional songs, but there was a lot of those in there. And I was like, is this a good thing? Are we moving towards this sort of felt mainstream Christian Christianity, but also the church I think is growing in Africa. And so like I'm not sure if they're trying to, like, help be more inclusive or more diverse. So I just wasn't sure if this was a good thing or not. I don't. I just don't like his talk. I did think in the moment that this was. That adding these songs, what was good. So I just. Yeah. So that this little light of mine, and you can see on the side, it says the African American spiritual type music.

John Dehlin [01:22:38] Yeah.

Julia [01:22:39] How it's labeled. But. Yeah. So I wasn't sure because I like that those were in the hymn book or in the hymn folder, I suppose.

Guest [01:22:45] Yeah.

Julia [01:22:46] But.

John Dehlin [01:22:46] And then the next one, I'm.

Julia [01:22:49] I'm Gonna Live so God can Use Me is what he was referencing it.

John Dehlin [01:22:52] Okay. African American spiritual. Yeah. That's kind of what they're called.

Brooklyn Alden [01:22:56] Yeah. I mean, it might. If I feel like if I was a African American member of the church, I would like to see more of these songs show up in the hymn book, you know, from all sorts of traditions and cultures and, you know, they take it from all over and it's kind of. I know these hymns are pulled from everywhere and they're kind of repurposed from different things, and I feel like it should be representative of all cultures going to the churches. So I like that for sure.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] I'm pretty sure Amazing Grace is like, one of the most standardized Christian hymns of all time in the United States. And I'm pretty sure Amazing Grace is going to make it into the. The future Mormon hymnal. And I, I. If that's true, I, I think that.

Brooklyn Alden [01:23:39] Is it not already in the hymnal?

John Dehlin [01:23:41] Amazing Grace has never been in the Mormon hymn.

Brooklyn Alden [01:23:44] Oh, okay. I don't know.

Julia [01:23:45] I thought they're also putting come that fountain, Come thou font found back in the hymn book, which I really. I love that hymn. But anyway.

John Dehlin [01:23:53] And viewers and listeners can tell me I'm wrong if Amazing Grace has been there. But I'm a. I would say I'm 99.

Brooklyn Alden [01:23:58] I trust you, John.

Sam Miller on Standing Up Against Racism

John Dehlin [01:24:02] Really quickly, there's a. There's a viewer that writes. Sam Miller writes, aren't you guys getting tired of talking about racism? The comments about racism is almost laughable. Julian Brooklyn, reactions to that.

Julia [01:24:19] What does he mean? Are we. Are we sick of standing up against racism? Because I, I would never get tired of. Of pushing back against people's racist comments. So I don't. I don't really know what they're asking.

Brooklyn Alden [01:24:29] Yeah, I wish it wasn't an issue. I get sick of the fact that we have to have conversations like this, as I'm sure, you know, every culture like It, Yeah, I don't like having to talk about that, but I going to, if it's coming up, I'm not going to ignore it at all. It's going to contribute to the problem.

John Dehlin [01:24:46] My, my. Yeah, the beautiful. Well said in my. To both of you. My, my response to Sam Miller is, I mean, it's not us that did this. This is, we're responding to Kyle McKay's talk and he's the one that brought up black people and, and races and moving when you sing a spiritual and whatever. So we're just responding to a weird off comment from a high level church leader. That's my response. Anyway. Well, really quickly I want to thank Shane Hunt Creative for their super chat as well as Daily Focus 1950, who writes, you should invite Dr. Andrew M. Henry, host of Religion for Breakfast, to speak on the topic of credibility enhancing displays in Mormonism.

Julia [01:25:38] So like becoming more mainstream Christian. That would be really interesting.

John Dehlin [01:25:41] So thank. Yeah, thanks to both of those. Thanks to both of those comments. All right, Julia, this is fun.

Kyle McKay Admits He Created Poop

Julia [01:25:47] Okay, so this next one, I really didn't like this one, but he's talking about a friend, I think, having a spiritual experience, shoveling manure. And then he says a really interesting comment about him being an attorney. You can just play it and we can react.

John Dehlin [01:26:01] Okay. All right, let's play the next clip.

Guest [01:26:05] I love what your stake president taught and I'm going to be a second witness to some of what he said. I especially took note of, of how revelation came to him while he's shoveling poop. I, I get it. I own horses too, so I shovel the stuff. Moreover, I'm an attorney. I got paid a lot to shovel it and, and even create it. And so I, I understand it, but I also appreciate how his wife was able, Leslie was able to help him and the Lord used her to guide his thoughts.

Julia [01:26:47] So he's saying he's, he obviously has horses, so he has actually physically shoveled poop. But then he says, you know, as an attorney, I've also shoveled poop, but I've also created poop. So I was really shocked that he admitted that to the crowd. I don't know if he meant it as a joke, but like, just tell

Brooklyn Alden [01:27:04] it on himself again, over and over again. This guy,

John Dehlin [01:27:09] I mean, I like that he's being honest and authentic.

Brooklyn Alden [01:27:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:15] Several lawsuits in the past few years. The attorneys that I've worked with would never be excited to say they created poop to shovel. Like, and the ones that I respect and that I've Worked with, work hard to be, have integrity and honesty in what they do. They're not trying to create fake or false evidence or fake or false impressions. They're just trying to stick with the facts and the truth within the law, at least the ones that I respect and work with. So that is a weird thing. And maybe he's just joking, but I'm guessing he's not totally joking.

Julia [01:27:52] I don't feel like he's joking.

John Dehlin [01:27:54] And I don't think all attorneys would endorse that practice of creating poop. Is what it means to be an attorney. I don't know.

Brooklyn Alden [01:28:03] Maybe there are absolutely attorneys out there that say, I'm not gonna fight for you unless I believe in this case, because that's important to me. I think there's so much like messiness, horse poop, if you will, that you can get caught up in. In that profession. And I think that some people just set that boundary for themselves. And I highly respect that and would also want that if I, you know, need to hire an attorney. I don't want someone that feels like I can, you know, I can argue anything. So I'll pull it out of wherever and get the job done for you. Like, no, I want it done it right. And so, yeah, it makes me lose a bit of respect for him as a attorney, for sure.

Julia [01:28:41] Yeah. Yeah. So these are. This is a PDF that I pulled from the church's website. I think it was from. From 2025. So it's fairly recent, but you can see that we're missing one of the apostles. But I. This is a. You know, Kyle McKay is a general authority for the church and he is an attorney. And he has just now admitted that he. Maybe as a joke, but maybe it's an actual admittance that he is creating poop. But anyway, so this is just me circling. It's an image of the. The top 15, or the top. I guess at the time there wasn't 15, but I've just circled in blue those involved in business, and then in red those involved, those who are attorneys. And so, like, because I, like that seems really shady of this person to admit that. And I just thought it was interesting because we talk about it a lot where the church has a lot of these business and attorneys, because this church, it is a corporation. It's the corporation of the church, of the president of the church, Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And then if you go to the next slide, I have.

John Dehlin [01:29:35] Can I correct one thing, Julia? Really?

Julia [01:29:36] Sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:38] So I. Bednar was a professor. I Think he was an academic. Now he may have been involved in some business related stuff, maybe with Walmart, but I'm pretty sure Bednar's core career was as a, as a business professor.

Julia [01:29:56] So I mean, but he's a professor of business management. I guess that's why I put it. Okay, okay, that's so it is a little bit of a difference.

John Dehlin [01:30:02] But, but okay, so yeah, just to, just to count. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. So 9 out of 15, that's over half are attorneys or businessmen. So I mean, I think that's relevant and I do think the Mormon Church is best understood in my opinion if you really want to understand the Mormon Church's behavior, it's best understood first as a multinational, multi, hundreds of billions of dollars corporations. And that's going to explain so much of the Church's behavior. And then secondly, I think the second best way to understand the Mormon Church's behavior is as a legal defense, as a law firm. Because if you just look at the fact that the past four or five church historians have all been attorneys, why would you pick attorneys and not actual credible historians? As historians, it's because you're looking for the types of mental gymnastics or justifications that an attorney would employ to then spin and shovel the malarkey of the history that you as a church have been shoveling. And so I do think in a weird way Kyle is saying the quiet part out loud. As church historian and as a former attorney church historian, he's kind of admitting that the Mormon Church history department shovels poop,

Brooklyn Alden [01:31:31] that he's real good at it. That's probably why favorite thing to do

John Dehlin [01:31:37] and that's probably why he was called into that position. I don't know. Anyway, Julie, that's interesting actually.

Julia [01:31:44] And this is just more of that page. I didn't. And so you have three businessmen and then two attorneys for the first presidency, the 70, and then the Presiding Bishopric. And I didn't do the full 70 because they have that in the spring spread. But I, I was like, I don't have time for this. So if somebody wants to do that and figure out how many are businessmen or attorneys, that'd be really interesting to see. But this just is showing more of that, more of the same.

Mormon leadership with wealth and power

John Dehlin [01:32:06] Let me ask y' all about this. So what do you got? What do you think about the, the idea that like, well, if they've been successful in business or law, it means they have character, it means they are good organizers, it means they're good leaders. If you're a multibillion dollar church multinational. You just need good leaders. You need smart people. You need people with high educations, advanced degrees and who have managed large corporations. And so it doesn't make sense to have schoolteachers or plumbers or bakers, you know, or other types of low level blue collar or less credentialed types of professions as high level church leaders because we need advanced degrees and leaders of large organizations to run a super large and wealthy organization. Do you like that justification or not?

Julia [01:33:08] As you're speaking, my thought was there's a lot of people in my life because we're not well off financially. We're regular as my opinion, but like I always understood that my dad would never be called as a general authority because we're not. We don't have that much money and it just seems like a money thing. So it seems like God looketh on the bank account or the income rather than on the heart. I don't really know. Like, I'm sure that there's good people who make money, there's good people who make less money. So I just, I don't know, I have mixed feelings about it. But like, I don't know,

Brooklyn Alden [01:33:38] I think it's no different than the broader culture that the church exists in. I think it's a little microcosm of America. It's a very uniquely American religion. And I think that all the things that make, you know, white men successful in America is making white men super successful in the church as well. And it's kind of the same things happening and yeah, not really rising above what. I don't know what I want to say. But you know, what people are generally doing and not showing, like, hey, we can't, because obviously there's brilliant people everywhere. And if we're talking about church leaders, shouldn't it be more about are you a good person that we want to follow? You know, do you exemplify Christ in your life? And you can do that just as well as a plumber, as a businessman. So that's what I think we should be looking more for in church leaders. And then if you want to have people run the accounts, then like, yeah, hire people with degrees or whatever. I think that Mormons really love wealth and status though, as we know. And it's just shows here. And then you have. It's the same problem that happens in all institutions and boardrooms in America. Once you have all those people working up there together, they're going to keep hiring those same people. And then it just creates this Endless loop of the snake eating the tail of like okay, how do we now get some new blood into that circle? That's going to bring other, you know, it's just this never ending problem that I can't even begin to speak on because I'm have no idea what I'm talking about. But it's just like clear what's happening.

Julia [01:35:10] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:12] As I'm contemplating my own question that those were, you know, that was all very well said from both of you. If we look at Jesus, didn't Jesus called fishermen commoners? So I mean one thing we can do is look at Jesus's example and I don't think he necessarily chose the richest and the lawyers and the most powerful as his 12. And he could have, he could have called the richest and the most powerful people, I suppose as his 12 apostles. So that's something. There is the thing that Jesus said, where you're heart is there, you know, where your treasure is there will your heart be also. And if it seems like the church has prioritized wealth and power and so it makes sense that it would hire and choose a leadership that reflects where its heart seems to be, which is in amassing wealth and power. And so that makes sense. The final thing I just want to say is another episode that we're going to be releasing I think next week is with a woman named Rebecca who, whose husband was found out to be, let's just say abusive. And when, when the law got involved and legal issues got involved, basically she was cut off from her stake president and from higher level leaders because there was this conflict of interest of like the leaders at that point represented the church. And if she was going to be involved in a lawsuit, then the stake president couldn't be talking to her because then that could be used against the church in a court of law. And what it left was a woman who is a victim of abuse having no support. And I think the church needs to separate sort of administrative leadership from spiritual pastoral care. And I just. The stake president can't help Rebecca. And again, please tune into that next episode because the stake president that withdrew from her ends up being made an area authority as almost some would say a reward for taking care of the church legally. And I'm not saying that's true. I'm saying she had the impression that the stake president that withdrew his support, support from her as a victim of abuse, that the church rewarded him with an area authority position for the way he handled or some would say mishandled that whole thing. My biggest Sadness around that whole story was why couldn't that stake president, if he had to recuse himself from pastoral care, just assign another stake leader to be her support. But instead she and her family, basically, it seems, got no help because the bishop was told by the stake president nothing about the husband and was told that if he ever hears anything about the husband, who is a former bishop and a former stake presidency member, was told to put a blanket on it. And so she couldn't get help from her bishop and she got no help from her stake president. And I think the church needs to just implement pastoral care is separate from, from administrative bureaucratic leadership. Anyway, I said one.

The Stake President and Spiritual Purposes

Brooklyn Alden [01:38:40] Yeah, I agree.

Julia [01:38:41] It's well said.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] Yeah, okay, sorry. Julia, what's the last clip?

Julia [01:38:45] Yeah, so this is, I've labeled a daughter's appearance and this is just his final thing that he says that I think is of his controversial. So.

Adam McKay on His Daughter's Appearance

John Dehlin [01:38:52] Okay, all right, Emory.

Guest [01:38:55] When she was talking about. And she quoted Sister Rooney, I just need to say this before I move on. She quoted Sister Runia, you remember this talk? It was a beautiful talk about repentance. And she said, she used her hands. Remember this? Even when your behavior is down here, your worth is up here. Your worth always stays up here. And your behavior should be up here. But when it's down here, your worth is still up here. Where all our little grandchildren listened to that talk and seven year old Catherine was with her mother, who is our daughter. One day shortly after that, that conference and our daughter had been exfoliating her face and doing whatever scrub with it and it didn't look its best. Our daughter's beautiful. But on that day she was, you know, she wasn't showing her face in public, but she was showing it to her children. And her daughter said, mom, what's some, what's with your face? And our daughter Mary Kate said, well, honey, I'm exfoliating it. And it just, it's just having a hard day. And Catherine said, I know, mom, I know your worth is up here, but your face. So just, just remember those gestures can be applied even in a gentle diss from a child.

Julia [01:40:09] I didn't hear anyone laugh.

Brooklyn Alden [01:40:11] I was gonna say that the non reaction from the crowd is the funniest part, the silence.

Julia [01:40:16] And I think it was like that through all these clips. Like I haven't heard the. But the, but the, the quality of the audio is really good. So I couldn't hear anything even when you stood up. So like maybe it's just, I can't hear it, but I really didn't hear any of the audience reaction, but as

John Dehlin [01:40:29] women, as women, like, say, say what your reaction was to that, I'd like to hear.

Julia [01:40:36] Yeah. Why are you commenting on this person? On your daughter's appearance?

Brooklyn Alden [01:40:39] Yeah. Being like, well, she wasn't pretty that day. You know, I feel like, you know, normal. My dad would be like, you're the most beautiful person every day. Like, you know, it just, it's once again, every one of these clips, I'm like, there's like 10 different things that I'm like, what was going on here? Why did you say this? He just kind of like word vomits out weird stuff and he's like, I

Julia [01:41:01] have to say this last part or whatever. Like, yeah, why? Like, his talk, his overall talk was actually pretty good. I just wish he hadn't given any of these comments.

Brooklyn Alden [01:41:11] Like, yeah, I mean, my thought was already. I didn't. From my Mormon standpoint, I didn't agree with what he was saying about your worth is up here, but your behavior is down here. Because I felt like in the church, if my behavior is down here, my worth is like through the floor, you know, so even just that, obviously it wasn't offensive or anything, what he's saying, but I was just like, that's not how I felt.

John Dehlin [01:41:35] I mean, I, I will say to his credit, I like that teaching better than how maybe we experience Mormonism. Right?

Brooklyn Alden [01:41:42] Yeah. I wish I'd been raised like that for sure.

Julia [01:41:44] But he could have said that part and not have said that about his daughter. Like, yeah, anyway.

John Dehlin [01:41:51] Yeah, well, cringy, cringy. And you know, yeah, there was a

Julia [01:41:56] reason that talk was removed.

John Dehlin [01:41:59] I love the fact that the church in 2026 is sometimes reacting in real time to liberal or ex Mormons critiques on the Internet. It makes me so happy.

Julia [01:42:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:11] It just shows where, I mean, I had to come to grips years ago with the reality that what we often do in the ex Mormon Internet is make the church better. That's what we do.

Brooklyn Alden [01:42:24] Absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:25] And I like that. That's actually one of my main motivations that it always has been. So I like that.

Julia [01:42:30] I wonder why they took the whole thing down. Because, like, I know you can edit in YouTube, like @brooklyn, you do this stuff too, where you can clip things out.

John Dehlin [01:42:37] Because then we would, then we would have highlighted all the things they took

Julia [01:42:41] out, which is what we're doing now anyway.

Brooklyn Alden [01:42:45] I mean, it doesn't seem like there'd be much left after they clipped it all out. So it's better to just Take it all down. You know, it would, that would have been an awkward edit for sure.

Julia [01:42:54] Yeah, I guess that's true.

John Dehlin [01:42:56] Anyway, I want to give grace to people. I think he was trying to be funny.

Brooklyn Alden [01:43:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:02] It probably sucks to have to give talks all the time. So grace to Kyle McKay. But you know, maybe, maybe work with a PR firm or something to find better jokes.

Brooklyn Alden [01:43:13] A little self reflection of like, I don't know, it was just a lot of, I think opinion slipping out that I don't think he's a bad guy or anything. But yeah, the world's changing. Let's change with it.

John Dehlin [01:43:27] Yeah. We all, we all, we all can work on. Myself included on.

Julia [01:43:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:32] Being a little more thoughtful about the things I say and don't say.

Brooklyn Alden [01:43:36] Yeah. I was raised Mormon. I'm a culprit of saying lots of, you know, mess up things.

Guest [01:43:41] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [01:43:42] That we'd have to combat every day. Still working at it.

Julia [01:43:45] It also makes me think of Brad Wilcox gave a talk not long ago and I think that's one of the reasons why the Mormon stories numbers shot up. But he, after that he was, he came out and he made an apology of sorts. And so I kind of Wonder if Kyle McKay is going to say anything or if we can see that in the future.

John Dehlin [01:44:00] But anyway, I doubt it. I doubt this one. This, this didn't reach catastrophic proportions.

Ryan Scott on The Mormon Church's Past Racism

Julia [01:44:06] The Bradley, Brad's talk. Brad's comments were really bad. Yeah, that's true.

John Dehlin [01:44:12] Couple comments that were shared from previous topics. So Noah Harmer8288 wrote Amazing Grace was in Emma's original hyml. I forgot about that. But was not in the one that the apostles, the Joseph Smith era put together that became more prevalent with the Brighamite sect. So that's fun to hear.

Julia [01:44:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:31] And. And Marie Curry did acknowledge that Amazing Grace has been added to the latest hymn book. So thank you. Maria S. Curry. Ryan Scott writes, it's a current example of how the church's past racism still echoes today. So yeah, Ryan Scott's basically responding to Sam Miller who said, aren't y' all talking about race? I want to refer all our viewers and listeners to my series I did with Matt Harris. Historian Matt Harris called

Julia [01:45:03] Second Class Saint.

John Dehlin [01:45:06] Seventeen episodes on the Curse of Cain, the one drop rule, and the priesthood and temple exclusion policy. It's definitely one of the most things I'm most proud of in Mormon stories. He's one of the most brilliant guests we've ever had on Mormon stories. But none of us should be tired of learning about the Mormon church's history with race because I don't think any of us know it well enough to be able to say we could all move past it, I think. Yeah, right.

Brooklyn Alden [01:45:33] Yeah, yeah, agreed.

John Dehlin [01:45:36] And then, yeah, Trevenon, when he's talking about the professions of apostles and first presidents members and church leaders, Trevorites, they can use the theologian. That's. Use women. They could use mental health professionals. Right, yeah, Yep. They could use teachers and, and maybe even a plumber or a fisherman. Right.

Julia [01:46:02] Also in, in your last episode, Brad, Dr. Brad Reedy, he mentions. And I've heard this before too, sorry, this is kind of off topical, but they said that therapy is a, as a tool from Satan. So I don't know that they ever would call somebody who's in the mental health field.

John Dehlin [01:46:16] They might someday, but it's definitely would be a change from, from a long history.

Julia [01:46:22] Would be a big change. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:23] Humanizing the mental health profession. Last comment I wanted to share was again, Ryan Scott saying hiring attorneys. And I'm, I'm adding words here, but I think he's saying hiring attorneys and businessmen and, and millionaires and billionaires is a far cry from Jesus's admonition to sell all that you have and give it to the poor. And that's a good point as well, which I haven't done either. But then again, I don't call myself a literal Christian, so, I mean, I like to follow Jesus, but you know,

Brooklyn Alden [01:46:56] Mormons love to kind of forget the whole sooner will a rich man go to heaven than a camel pass through the eye of a needle. You know, like, we're just like, doesn't apply. Skim over.

Julia [01:47:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Edward Smart Reveals His Queer Story on Mormon Stories

John Dehlin [01:47:09] All right, well, it looks like Ed Smart is next on our list.

Julia [01:47:12] Yeah. So I actually really, I think of this as good news. I don't know why I think about this, but, but maybe if you, if you don't mind reading it, John, I really like to hear it from your voice. So, okay, so he made an Instagram post on June 6 where he kind of, he gives kind of where he's at in life right now. And this is Elizabeth Smart's father. And we've, we've covered Netflix, I think just recently did a documentary covering her story. And so we've covered that on Mormon stories as well. And I really, I, I kind of hope that Edward would come on Mormon Stories at some point. But anyway, he, he left this, if

John Dehlin [01:47:44] it's okay, really quick. I'll just, just. Because I, I actually asked that the story be included and it's Personal to me. My first text from Ed Smart came in October of 2018, and I won't disclose what Ed and I ended up talking about. We ended up meeting soon thereafter. And so I'm friend. I'm. I consider myself friends with Ed Smart. And, you know, we've been friends for now, I guess, eight years. And he did invite me to his. His second wedding. So the photos we're about to show, I think I took, but they were definitely a wedding in Camas, again, Camas that Margi and I attended, which was Ed Smart's second wedding to what I believe is his now husband. So this story is personal to me. And yeah, occasionally Ed does text me and he knows he's got an open invitation to come on Mormon Stories, as does Elizabeth. But they have complicating factors in their family that I won't go into that just make it really hard for them to not face a lot of backlash if they come on Mormon stories. So all the grace in the world to them. But. Did you want me to read this, Julia?

Julia [01:49:02] Yeah, I just also want to say, like, I know that he's. I think he's most well known, of course, for having. Being Elizabeth's father, but as a queer ex Mormon and having been in the church and, and he is now, he is a queer man. He's out in his relationship. Like, I just hearing his story, just that aspect of his Mormon story would be fascinating to me, even if, even if, you know, Elizabeth is not the topic of conversation. But anyway, I just think he's a very interesting, upstanding, seemingly upstanding person. So. But yeah, if you. If you want to read his. His Instagram post, that'd be great.

John Dehlin [01:49:32] He's a sweetheart. And, yeah, so he writes. He. He published this during Pride Week. I guess Today marks 24 years since my daughter's abduction. I continue to be thankful and feel blessed for her return and continued success. It also marks the end of my membership in the LDS Mormon Church. April 5, 2016. While in San Diego speaking on trafficking, I decided to attend the San Diego Temple. After I finished the session, I took a selfie as I stood in front of the temple when I had an epiphany. For the previous two years, I had been attending the temple three to four times a week, trying to fix myself. At that moment, I recalled the conflict I had in August 1974 when I attended the temple for the first time. I couldn't get over the realization that the church I had been brought up in and believed in would have such A ritualistic and barbaric ceremony. I walk out. However, I concluded I had no other choice but to go back in if I was to serve A mission. That day haunted me every time I attended the temple with someone going through for the first time infidelity. And pay attention to that word because it comes up later in this episode. Infidelity to myself. I lost where I.

He Said He Learned To Hate Himself in the Temple

Julia [01:51:05] Second line down. I can no longer what the second line down on. On this new slide.

John Dehlin [01:51:15] Oh, oh, okay, okay. Sorry, sorry. In infidelity. Thank you.

Brooklyn Alden [01:51:21] Yeah, there you go.

John Dehlin [01:51:22] Infidelity to myself. I could no longer pretend to know the truth. My journey started that day as I drove to visit my mother in Palm Springs. No longer could I believe the truth to be another person's words or organization's words. By their fruits ye shall know them had been drilled into me. I had learned to hate myself and my feelings because of what I had been taught, not what God had told me. The next few months took me on a journey of study in critical thinking, leading me to a truth I never had expected. Not only did it jar me to my foundation, but helped me understand that blind faith did not mean truth. I could no longer take any person's word to be truth. I remember my wife commenting, why don't you read the church's version? I thought to myself, how could I ever trust my life with an organization that only wanted me to hear their version, not necessarily the truth. The truth I learned and believed was that God did not espouse hate and self loathing as part of his creation or commandments. Why would a loving parent, the supreme creator, create a child only to hate himself? Wow.

Guest [01:52:51] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [01:52:51] Beautifully written.

Julia [01:52:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:53] Julie, what are your reactions? I want to hear your reactions to hearing statement.

Brooklyn Alden [01:52:57] Yeah.

Julia [01:52:57] He's the him saying like, I learned to hate myself. That was really heartbreaking, but also it was just occurring to me. So he's saying he went in 2016, he went to three to four times a week to go to the temple. And so he. He wasn't experiencing. And I have some slides to show because I don't know if all of our audience will know the. The barbaric parts of the temple. So in 2026, I think this is still how it is today, where you hold your right arm to the square and then you have your. You kind of do a cupping thing with your other hand. So. So it doesn't explain at any point in the ceremony what that, what that means. You're just doing it kind of blindly. And then if you go to the next Slide.

The barbaric parts of the temple

John Dehlin [01:53:35] Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

Julia [01:53:36] Yeah. So the penalties. So what it was is that originally they would slide their hand. They would, you know, take their hand like this and slide it across their throat, and then they would do the same thing with their stomach. And it was. John, you probably can speak better this. Because you went through it.

John Dehlin [01:53:48] Yeah. You would. You would. Literally, as if your thumb were a knife, you would make the hand motion of slitting your neck from ear to ear. And then. And then you would also make the hand motion to cut out your heart, and then you would also do a hand motion to slice open your bowels. And these were called the penalties. And they were taught to us as the penalties for revealing the secrets that you were being taught in the temple on that day.

Julia [01:54:22] Yeah. And so I. My thoughts were like, yes, it's. It's very specific. Like, if you reveal these things and then this can be your. Your outcome. But as a gay man going to the temple and trying to find answers, that. That feels like, almost personal. Like this. I learned to hate myself. It's like I can't reach these standards that the church has set because I am gay. And so that just seemed like kind of a personal thing to me. I don't know if he thought that in the temple, but that's just where my mind went. But, yeah, but I think of this as a happy post because he was able to recognize that he didn't have to hate himself. He could leave. He could love himself and be loved by another man and as fully as. As he is. And so I thought of this as a happy story. And this is a picture with him and his husband, Jim Alexander. So. And John, did you say you were there? And did you.

John Dehlin [01:55:08] That was a beautiful gay wedding. They rode in. So, you know, you know how, like, when. You know how, like, when the bride is coming, everyone stands and looks back and then the bride walks in, maybe with. With her dad, arm in arm, and the bride walks in. Their grand entrance is. They were both dressed as cowboys and they both came in on horses.

Julia [01:55:32] Oh.

Brooklyn Alden [01:55:32] Oh, I love it.

John Dehlin [01:55:35] Cowboys.

Brooklyn Alden [01:55:36] I love some camp. That's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:55:40] In Camus, where Ballerina Farm is. And. And you know, Corey Richards. So. Margi and I were at this wedding and Elizabeth Smart was there, and it was a beautiful, beautiful, joyous gay wedding.

Julia [01:55:56] They seem very happy together.

John Dehlin [01:55:58] Yeah, yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [01:55:59] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:56:00] Yeah, yeah. So, yes, that was a happy story.

Julia [01:56:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:06] To contrast with maybe. I don't know. Would you consider this next story a happy story, Julia?

Mormon Podcast: I Wished Someone Happy Pride Week

Julia [01:56:11] No, no, wait.

John Dehlin [01:56:14] Can I just say, I. I teased this story last week, Julia, if you remember, because I, I wished you a happy Pride Week.

Julia [01:56:22] Oh, yeah, you did. You did.

John Dehlin [01:56:24] I think I got 15 to 20 comments saying I'm not even gonna watch this episode because you started by, by wishing someone Happy Pride Week.

Brooklyn Alden [01:56:36] Oh my gosh, is that where we are now?

John Dehlin [01:56:39] I, I, I don't, five, 10 years ago, I don't think I would have had 20 people say, I'm not even going to listen to or watch this episode because you wish someone Pride Week. And I don't mean to because I don't even know if you knew that. No, I was shocked.

Julia [01:56:57] Oh my God.

John Dehlin [01:56:58] And I honestly, I, I banned them all because I don't want somebody listening to Mormon stories if they don't want to listen because we wish a LGBT person a happy Pride Week. Like, even if you don't like Pride Week, I'm just going to say this. Even if you don't like Pride Week, even if you don't agree with Pride Week, I challenge your ethics or your love or your compassion or empathy. If you're not going to listen to an episode because an LGBT person person is wished a Happy Pride Week, that's wild to me.

Julia [01:57:36] So my thoughts are like, people have birthdays and it's very personal. You can say Happy Birthday. Like, I want you to have a good day. Like it does. It doesn't have anything to do with you. You can say Happy Pride Month and just have it. I don't know. That's so weird.

John Dehlin [01:57:49] Yeah. Even if you don't like atheists or even if you don't like Christians, like how many times are ex Mormons or liberal Mormons are having to listen to like their parents talk about their calling or general conference? And a good ex Mormon or good atheist or good agnostic is going to say, oh, like I, my sister and brother in law are serving a mission right now, downtown church headquarters. I'm with them every week and they tell me about their mission. And you know what I do? I don't make snide comments. I don't make fun of them. I don't even like, roll my eyes and turn away. I listen to them talk about their missionary service. I'm happy to hear about the time they're having and I'm interested. And when they're happy, I'm happy.

Julia [01:58:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:36] And I think that's just the way to be a decent human.

Guest [01:58:39] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [01:58:39] 100. I mean, you could you say Happy Hanukkah even though you don't celebrate Hanukkah? You know, representing someone celebrating something.

John Dehlin [01:58:48] Yes, because it says happy Hanukkah.

Brooklyn Alden [01:58:51] Yeah. Yeah. And I agree that I don't think five years ago that would have happened. So it's just kind of like a backlash. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:59] Anyway, I'm sorry, Julia, because this probably affects you more than it does us, in a way.

Julia [01:59:04] Well, people, I. I feel bad because you lost viewers, but at the same time, I don't know if you even. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:59:09] I don't.

Julia [01:59:10] Not a big deal that you.

John Dehlin [01:59:11] I don't feel bad when bigots. When bigots don't listen. Like, I want them to listen, but I just. I, I. It triggers me. So, anyway, I apologize.

Julia [01:59:21] Oh, yeah, you're. That's. Anyway, okay, so, yeah, this next topic is Fidelity Month, and this happened on June 4th.

Utah Governor Spencer Cox Signs Declaration to Declare June Fidelity Month

John Dehlin [01:59:28] Put it in quotes. Fidelity. Yeah. What's the story, Julia?

Julia [01:59:33] Okay, so.

Brooklyn Alden [01:59:35] So this is the.

Julia [01:59:35] This is a screenshot of the Sally Tribune's coverage. It says, dubbing June Fidelity Month, Governor Cox continues rightward shift away from being first to recognize pride. And so I've highlighted the next few slides. I've highlighted the little red arrows showing. So this first part actually. Brooklyn, do you want to read this? Just the first little sentence or paragraph.

Brooklyn Alden [01:59:56] Yeah. Since making history as the first Utah governor to recognize LGBTQ Pride Month, Spencer Cox has, over the last few Junes, backed away from declaring his support for that community until he issued no declaration at all last year.

Julia [02:00:15] No, I think you're good.

John Dehlin [02:00:16] Will you keep reading, Brooklyn? I'm sorry, I don't mean because I haven't read this.

Brooklyn Alden [02:00:20] Absolutely. Now, in his sixth year leading the state, Cox quietly signed a declaration dubbing June Fidelity Month. And signaling a continued shift to the right for the leader, who once described himself as, quote, an ally to the LGBTQ community, end quote, quote. Whereas the document Cox signed reads, john, this is quote, John Adams, a founding father of the United States, said, our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

John Dehlin [02:00:56] Okay, I'll pause there, Julia, but can I. Can I. Can I share one experience?

Julia [02:01:01] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [02:01:02] So, obviously, Mormon Stories, in its first year, was interviewing, you know, queer Mormons, because that was a big part of my awakening when I had. When I heard about Stuart Mattis killing himself on the floor of a Mormon Chapel in 2000 while I was working at Microsoft. And then I. My cousins who were gay stopped coming to family reunions, and that made me sad. And then, you know, Margi's cousin Scott came out to us as Gay told us he wanted to kill himself. All that stuff preceded my doing Mormon stories. And so I've been an ally for as long as I started Mormon stories. So when Encircle was started. So Stephanie Sorensen Larsen from Provost started Encircle many, many years ago. We were all excited about it. It was like this provo LGBT youth support house. And it was an amazing thing that sprung up in Utah County. You know, Stephanie, eventually, you know, we had the Believer movie with me and Dan Reynolds and Tyler Glenn with hbo, and Love Loud, you know, came about, which was this amazing concert with Imagine dragons and neon trees and others like Utah started turning rainbow and even Mormons building bridges. Like, it became a big thing that faithful Mormons would march in Pride parades. And that was a good thing that, you know, there was. There was a full decade, decade and a half where Utah was turning rainbow. And I remember when Spencer Cox was running for governor the very first time, I'm like, I'm not going to vote for a Republican. And then Stephanie Sorensen Larsen, founder of Encircle, reached out to me and some of our friends, and she said, no, Spencer Cox is one of the good guys. He's an ally. He's pro lgbt, and you should vote for him, because he is going to be good for the LGBTQ community. And sure enough, he got elected, and he was. He followed through. And I remember when Utah declared some week or some day or some month a Love Loud day or Love Loud month, that's how much of an ally Spencer Cox was. So I'm just. I'm flummoxed at why over the past several years, he's. I'm flummoxed that I'm not flummoxed about why he's changed. Because how do you go in reverse? How do you get elected on being an ally? How do you govern as being an ally, and then all of a sudden back away from it? That doesn't make. Who becomes less of an LGBT ally over time. Like, I don't know anyone in my life who. Who has become less of an LGBT ally over time. But, Julia, I. I'm ranting now, but will you take over now? But I just had to share that history.

Julia [02:04:07] No, that's fine. One thing that I did look up, because I was like, what is the stats for LGBTQ in Utah or Salt Lake? So I just looked up for Salt Lake, and it says it ranks in the top 10 U.S. metro areas for LGBTQ population per capita. And so, like, it doesn't really mix. It seems like the people.

John Dehlin [02:04:25] Salt Lake has a gay mirror.

Julia [02:04:26] Yeah, it seems like Salt Lake is very LGBTQ affirming. I don't know about Utah overall, but I feel like it's. And. And we'll talk about this more, too, but if the next slide, it talks about how he slips in. So instead of announcing it, Cox did not announce the declaration with a news release, nor did he post it on social media, as he has done in the beginning of June's. In June in the past. Instead, he updated. PDF file. He updated that PDF file. It's tucked away in a list of declarations on the governor's website. And so if you go to the next slide, it shows the website, and then it shows the list of these PDFs that he's just kind of thrown in there. And so here's the list. And this fidelity month is right at the very bottom. If you go to the next slide, just right there at the bottom. He just kind of shoved it in there. And then what I'd like to do is I'd like to read it. Even though Brooklyn's read some of it from this article. I'd like to. Really like to. Yeah. So, John, do you mind actually reading this? Just kind of go in order because, like, I really.

Brooklyn Alden [02:05:21] I.

Julia [02:05:21] It's kind of wild to me.

Utah Governor Spencer J. Cox Declares June 2026 as F

John Dehlin [02:05:23] Okay, so Spencer J. Cox, governor declaration. It's got the seal of the governor of the state of Utah at the top. This is really formal. So he writes. Whereas a recent opinion poll of Americans showed that support for traditional values has significantly declined, whereas a majority of Americans no longer esteem values like faith, family, patriotism, or community involvement. I want to know who doesn't esteem community involvement or family?

Brooklyn Alden [02:06:02] Who doesn't esteem family? I was like, who's making this?

Julia [02:06:05] Maybe it's his definition of family.

Brooklyn Alden [02:06:08] Disagree, disagree, disagree.

John Dehlin [02:06:11] Whereas fidelity means dedication to faith, family, and country. Okay, that's fine. Whereas it is imperative that we recommit ourselves. By the way, borrowing on Ed Smart, what he doesn't list there is fidelity means dedication to self. He. I think Ed Smart would add to self there along with faith, family, and country. Sorry, had to editorialize there a bit. Little. Little bit. Whereas it is imperative that we recommit ourselves to the pursuit of fidelity. Whereas John Adams, a founding father of the United States, said, quote, our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. Okay, F. That.

Julia [02:06:55] Because the founding fathers have always said kind of controversial things. Like, Matt Harris even pointed out that Thomas Jefferson said that he once called Religion, I think hocus pocus. Like, there, there's different things that these, that these leaders have said that, like.

John Dehlin [02:07:09] Well, they endorse slavery.

Julia [02:07:11] Yeah. They're. They're not the most upstanding people, so I don't know why we keep quoting them.

Brooklyn Alden [02:07:16] I would love to see the context of this John Adams quote to begin with, though, because.

John Dehlin [02:07:20] Yeah, true.

Brooklyn Alden [02:07:21] Yeah. You can just pull anything and.

John Dehlin [02:07:24] Yeah, but the implication is that people aren't moral.

Julia [02:07:27] Yeah. This. This doesn't make any sense.

John Dehlin [02:07:30] And people are like, really? Did Governor Cox just paid any attention to the bricks and whatever American scandal, anything? Like, does he really want to say or imply that religious people are moral but the non religious people aren't?

Brooklyn Alden [02:07:49] None of this is mutually exclusive.

John Dehlin [02:07:51] Yeah. Anyway, we're ranting. Whereas the survival of the United States depends on the shared bonds of faith, family, and patriotism. Okay. That's the gay menace that the gays are going to destroy.

Julia [02:08:03] Well, even elder President Oaks has said that. He says having even just a couple generations of gay people, it would depopulate the nation. Something like that.

John Dehlin [02:08:11] Okay.

Julia [02:08:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:13] Whereas it is fitting to observe one month each year to rededicate the United States to its core values. Now, therefore, I, Spencer J. Cox, Governor of the great state of Utah, do hereby declare June 2026 as Fidelity Month in Utah. Signed Spencer J. Cox, Governor with his big fat signature. All right.

Spencer Cox Says LGBT Pride Month Is Unnecessary

Julia [02:08:35] The top two were interesting to me because he was like, a recent poll has been done and people, it sound to me like what it was saying was the recent poll was people were in support of LGBTQ rights. And then I can't remember exactly what the second one was, but it kind of made me think, like, the people don't really want this. They. They want to celebrate Pride Month. I think Salt Lake has some of the biggest Pride events. Like, I. I don't.

Brooklyn Alden [02:08:56] Yeah, in Salt Lake was huge. It was one of the most up and coming. Like, it was like the fastest growing Pride celebration in the United States, at least as of probably around 2018, I would guess. When I heard that, it was huge. And so this just feels like a major shift backwards. And I was as surprised as John because I was like, I didn't even realize that he was this kind of conservative because I've just taken it as. I don't know. Julie and I were talking about this beforehand. I was like, I'm just surprised seeing this come from him. You know, I lived in Salt Lake. It's extremely liberal, it's extremely gay friendly, and has beautiful lgbtq, LGBTQ plus community. So it's just surprising all around. And just like the government of Utah being in Salt Lake, I don't know, I just find it all odd and simp. Surprising. And. Yeah, how is he deciding The. The one quote that says, like, this is what we need for America to re. You know, like, how are you? You decide what the key is that's missing from America and you. You know, it's just an odd declaration all around.

Julia [02:10:03] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [02:10:04] Sorry to interrupt, but.

John Dehlin [02:10:05] No, that was great. Yeah. Yeah. I'll just say. Yeah, it's obviously what's going on here. If. If we hadn't have had the backlash against progressivism that. That has come out in the past two to five, six, eight years, and if the. If the trend in the United States was still squarely towards or growing towards the LGBTQ population, Spencer Cox would still be a quote ally. So what it shows is he's just another politician that just gravitates towards expediency. He doesn't really have solid core principles or values, and he's just kind of like, gravitating towards whatever position provides him with political capital or expediency. And in that sense, it feels gross to me, but it's also gross because it's not an either or. I'll be honest. I hope y' all may disagree, but let me just give a take. I don't mind Fidelity Day. I don't even mind a traditional families month if they want to do that. But can you have both? Can you have. Hey, this month is Pride Month, and it's Traditional Values month or Traditional families month. Or a different month is Traditional Families month.

Brooklyn Alden [02:11:31] Yeah. Why does it need to be June especially?

John Dehlin [02:11:34] Yeah. But I'm not against saying we support traditional families or stay at home moms or having lots of kids. Yes. But also yes to LGBT Pride Month and celebration of. Of them. And. Yeah. Why the same month? So this is really sad and disappointing, especially when he talks about disagree better. Is this an example of disagree better?

Brooklyn Alden [02:12:02] Good example of disagreeing.

Julia [02:12:03] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [02:12:04] So we've got halfway there.

John Dehlin [02:12:07] It's just disappointing. He's really. He's been very disappointing to me personally, you know, and as someone who's also trans ally. Just the way that. That the church in Utah has slowly tried to actually make life harder for trans people.

Julia [02:12:24] Yeah, that's in the. That was in the article, too. That I have a highlight for that.

John Dehlin [02:12:27] Yeah, let's pull that up. Go ahead, Julia, take over.

June Is Fidelity Month Instead of Pride Month

Julia [02:12:29] Well, so these next two are people's. People's responses for this so reading June is Fidelity Month instead of Pride Month. The organization added. So this is the organization of Project Rainbow in Utah. And they said it's a slap in the face for LGBTQ Utahns. It would. It would have been easy to start a campaign or recognize another month to pursue those goals instead of taking Pride Month away from the community and then replacing it with an insult that implies LGBTQ people don't have families of their own faith that they. That they nourish, or a sense of patriotism that inspires them to make a community and country better.

John Dehlin [02:13:05] Well said.

Julia [02:13:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:13:08] Wow, that's so well said. Yeah. It's like LGBT people don't have children, don't have families, aren't patriots, don't serve in the military.

Guest [02:13:15] Right.

John Dehlin [02:13:17] Or aren't faithful. Yeah, yeah.

Julia [02:13:21] And here's another one. It says, Pride is part of Utah's history, and celebrating today is just as important as ever. A statement from House of Senator Democrats reads, at a time when so many communities, including the LGBTQ community, are being targeted and erased, Utah needs leaders who bring people together, not leaders who deliberately look away. Look for new ways to divide us. And then the next slide. Oh, yeah, yeah. And then the. This last one was how Utah is changing for transgender individuals. It says, Beginning January 28, 2027, Utah doctors must stop providing gender affirming care to minor patients who did not start hormone replacement therapy before May 6th of this year and cannot continue the care for anyone under 16 years old surgically changing a transgender minor sexual characteristics that were already prohibited. Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [02:14:20] Just the point that stands out to me is this, like, we're deliberate. Like, why were we going out of our way to do this? You know, maybe even think what you think, or. Sure, don't acknowledge Pride Month or something. Why do we need to go so far in the opposite direction and be like, no, this is Fidelity Month? And just, like, just out of the blue, it feels to me, you know, I just. It feels like doing too much. I just don't understand. Clearly, it's. He thinks it's going to benefit him from some other group of people because why else would a politician do anything?

John Dehlin [02:14:52] But I guess it's possible if we're trying to have a good faith interpretation, it's possible his views on LGBT people have changed and that somehow his time as governor made him think that LGBT people aren't patriotic, don't have families, and don't have faith, and that they don't deserve to be celebrated, and that he actually believes that showing support for LGBT people undermines and Erodes the moral fabric of our country and threatens traditional families. Like I guess it's possible that that's what being governor has taught him.

Brooklyn Alden [02:15:30] I would argue that that's probably where he was to begin with. You know, and him early on wanted to get elected. Knew there are lots of gay people in Salt Lake and lots of people who want to vote on this issue. Especially back then, even Mormons probably would have been down to vote for this issue. And it just kind of shows, I think, I mean Julie was talking about this before we started. Kind of just shows the politician in him that most likely this is was his opinion all along. He was kind of faking it before for. And now he's probably going back into what his plan was all along. That's how I would perceive it now

John Dehlin [02:16:06] that I think about it. It was a fundraiser that he. That Stephanie Swords and Larsen originally told me she learned about his views. So it could have been he was just trying to raise money.

Brooklyn Alden [02:16:18] Yeah, it's a classic horse of a mini color politicians. You know, ironic because he doesn't like rainbows apparently.

John Dehlin [02:16:25] But that's sad because I really liked him and he could, he could still support the things he supports without throwing a community under the bus. That's my take. Julia, you should have the last word.

Julia [02:16:37] Well, yeah, it really does because like I agree with. You can have two things. Two things can be true at the same time. You can celebrate pride and you can celebrate Fidelity Month. Again, those aren't exclusive. People who, who are queer can have the fidelity. Also by him, him not posting, him not celebrating June pride the last couple Junes, I think it said like he's clearly choosing one and not the other. And so like that's really harmful to the community. And then with people who, especially people in power who have this opinion that harms people who. These like 16 year olds are younger that are looking for help because they have this gender, they're. What's it. I can't remember what the. Like they don't feel like their gender in their body.

Brooklyn Alden [02:17:14] Yeah, yeah.

Julia [02:17:15] They need a gender. They need this gender affirming care. Like so this is harming these people or you know, people like you said Markie's cousin who was struggling. Like those are really heartbreaking stories that if people in power continue to have this, these opinions, they can really harm my community. So.

John Dehlin [02:17:31] Yeah. All right.

Brooklyn Alden [02:17:33] Some important pushback I think for sure.

John Dehlin [02:17:36] What do y' all think about the idea that Martin Luther King tried to espouse that we should. We need to move as A society towards a time when we don't judge people by the color of their skin or even their gender or their sexuality, but by the content of their character. Like, I think good faith conservatives might say, I'm tired of talking about racism, homophobia, sexism, feminism. Can we just all be humans and just interact as equals, as just humans and not have to turn everything into, you know, power dynamics around minority groups and disenfranchisement? When can we move past gender and sexuality and race, you know?

Brooklyn Alden [02:18:24] Yeah, when it's. As soon as people are ready to. Yeah, as soon as people are ready to, you know, stop being bothered by what other people are doing. Like, there's, if it's not affecting you, there is absolutely no reason to even have an opinion on it. You know, I just. So it's just like it's not affecting you? Why are you talking about it? If you want to think in your head, oh, love them, but they're gonna go to hell for being gay or whatever. Sure. Like, have that opinion, but why do you need to push it on everyone else? Which is the main thing for me.

Utah Gov. Gary Utah

Julia [02:18:55] Yeah.

Guest [02:18:58] All right.

Brooklyn Alden [02:18:58] When they have an opinion. But to be clear. But yeah.

Julia [02:19:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:03] All right. Well, that's how Utah's doing these days. Should we go to the next story, Julia?

Springfield Missouri Temple Groundbreaking

Julia [02:19:09] Yeah, so this one's kind of personal to me because it's in Springfield, Missouri. So this is about the Springfield, Missouri temple, the groundbreaking. So this temple was announced in 2023. And I know this is like, this is very specific to my region in Missouri, but I feel like this is like kind of a case study for the temples going around. And I know that Montana, they just, they just broke ground for that temple as well. I can't remember which city, so forgive me for that. But the temple was delayed because of, because of bats. Because of the, it was, the building of the temple was disrupting their migration patterns and things like that. And so I just put that on there for, for people to see. But. And I remember Talking to my 95 year old grandma and she was really mad that the church was, was this was being delayed because of the bats. She's like, we're not environmentalists. I don't mean to harm to my grandma, but she was like, we're not environmentalists. We shouldn't worry about this. We should just go ahead and build it. And, and I, I have seen people comment where they're like, no, this is fine. It's just a tiny setback. Just, you know, take care of the bats. And then we can move forward with the temple. So it was just an interesting thing. But yeah, they broke ground. If you, if you go forward, the Springfield Daily Citizen published the story. Oh. So here they're talking about the concerns for the bats and then the. I think it's K Y3 the next. Yeah, here. Groundbreaking health Saturday for the temple in Springfield. And so there's a little video about that, but we don't need to watch that. But so yeah, it was the groundbroke Saturday morning. And this here, it shows that there. I thought this was really interesting and this is one of the things I want to talk about. It says that there are 75,000 Latter Day Saints in Missouri. And one thing that I think is interesting is if you go to the official stats page, it says that there are 153 wards in Missouri and then 28 branches. And I don't have a source for this except for that my ex husband was the ward clerk in our ward and pretty much every ward that we lived in. And he said the average award is about 150 members. Does that sound roughly right? Because I. It says Google thing.

Mormon membership in Missouri

John Dehlin [02:21:04] On average. Yeah.

Julia [02:21:06] Okay, so Google is saying between 150 to 250 for award and then for a branch that's between 50 and 150 active members. And so if you rearrange those numbers, knowing that this is the case, that puts the membership in Missouri to be 24,000 and 42,000. And I would, I would, because I'm here and I've seen it, I would tend to push it to the lower end. So that just, that's like so few members. And there's. This is the third temple in the state. So I just think this is really interesting that the church seems to be building these temples that I think will mostly be empty. And then even when they built the Kansas city one, the St. Louis, because across the state the St. Louis people in the temple were complaining because they said all of our temple workers are from the Kansas City area. So that's going to cut down on the temple workers. And so I kind of wonder if that's going to happen with the Springfield Temple when they try to keep it housed with volunteers. I guess. Anyway, I just was curious about all that.

John Dehlin [02:22:03] Can I, can I, can I push? Oh, wait. So is, do, do we want to talk about this slide?

Julia [02:22:09] Well, this one's just. This is, this is President Jarvis in our area. This is a story from the, the Springfield Business Journal. And he's saying that there's 10,000 members in the Springfield area. And I think statistically it's more like there's. There's 1600 or 2700. So it's really, really low compared to the numbers that he's giving. So that's just the point on that one. And then another point that I think is really funny, and I think this happens a lot for in the Mormon Church, where the church builds a temple, announces it or titles it the nearest big city. So this is called the Springfield, Missouri Temple, but it actually resides in Ozark. And I think even with Scotland, I think the recent one that they announced for Scotland won't actually be in Scotland, it's in the town over. So I just thought that was funny.

John Dehlin [02:22:51] That's interesting. Can I. Okay, before we go to the next slide, can I challenge or at least raise a topic that, that I hear a lot in ex Mormonism? And it's basically this logic that the church shouldn't build temples in areas where it doesn't have enough membership to justify it. I'm going to, I'm going to actually take a, a bit of a contrarian or devil's advocate point of view there. What about the idea that the church, number one, can build temples wherever it wants. But also number two, my understanding is what the church has learned is that when it does build temples, it experiences an increase in temple attendance and an increase in member faithfulness and an increase in the obtaining of temple order ordinances and temple activity, and even an increase in tithing. So I don't think the church would be building these temples if it didn't feel like it was in its best interest to do so. I do think the church has every right to build whatever it wants. And I don't think it's logical to think that the church should only build a temple once adjacent temples are bursting at the seams, and then it can justify building it. What if it knows there isn't enough temple attendance and it wants to build temples to have more temple attendance? And by the way, I am constantly driving by temples in Utah on like Saturdays and even weekdays, and the parking lots are full. And these are even in places where there's temples all over the place. Like you. You can see from any given geographical location within Salt Lake county or Utah county, if you're overlooking the valley, you can see five or six temple steeples. And guess what? On a weekday or, or a Friday or a Saturday, those parking lots are full. And so I think to some extent the strategy of the church is working here. But even more importantly, what's wrong with building if. What's wrong with the church saying, if we build it, they will come.

Ex-Mormons: Should the Church Build Temples in Areas

Julia [02:25:01] Yeah, that's true.

Brooklyn Alden [02:25:01] Yeah, that's how I see it. Yeah.

Julia [02:25:03] Yeah. The thing that came to my mind, because I don't have any problems with that, if the church, if that. If a temple is going to help increase membership, like, that's fine. My parents are really excited. I'm excited to go to the open house. Whenever it finally happens, my thought are like. My thoughts are like, the Texas McKinney Fair. I can't remember. Is it Fairview? I can't remember. But when, when the temple, when the church comes in and tries to build in this astronomically tall temple or tries to. Or they spend a billion dollars on a temple where they could be using it for humanitarian efforts, that does bother me. I really liked. I think it was Hinckley's initiative where he was saying, let's build small temples. Let's build a lot of small ones. And I think that was nice because then those ones would, I think would stay packed and then they're not spending so much money. So that does a little bit bother me that the church is like, like abiding by citizen or by city rules, and then they're spending so much money on these buildings when they could be using it elsewhere. But. So those are. But other than that, I mean, I wouldn't stop a church from building their. Their chapels or their buildings anywhere. So, yeah, I can see that the church to them, that would be a good thing to bring more membership.

John Dehlin [02:26:05] And I'll argue with myself because I do think ordinance work for the dead is ridiculous. Huge waste of time other than like whatever ceremonial, ritualistic value.

Julia [02:26:16] Mormons.

John Dehlin [02:26:17] I think it's a interesting statement on God that he wants millions of faithful Latter Day Saints doing these prolonged, tedious rote ordinances for dead people when there's so much, as Jesus would say, there's so much evil sufficient to the hour or day thereof in terms of hunger and clean water and literacy and poverty and crime and natural disaster, that God and Jesus wants us focused on doing prolonged tedious dead works for dead people over alleviating suffering and improving the quality of life of the living while we're all here with resources alive. So I'm arguing with myself, but I guess it's the church's right to do it. I just think, what if Joseph Smith got that wrong? What if that's one of the things like the priesthood ban or polygamy that Joseph just got wrong, but because he interpreted a scripture in a certain way and then members after him started practicing it. An inordinate amount of money and time got wasted. That could have been better directed.

Brooklyn Alden [02:27:24] Yeah, I don't think they're as worried about that, though. You know, it's like, if it's gonna help members, because it does, you know, keep them in. If you're doing regular temple attendance, kind of keep you going. I think they're more concerned about the corporation side than the theist side.

Julia [02:27:40] Point.

Brooklyn Alden [02:27:40] And then, Julie, to your point, I think that's really good point. You know, could argue it's a waste of money. I would say if they want to build it, great. They also have the money to match the amount of money with every temple they build to donate to charity. And so they could have it both ways if they want to solve that little.

Julia [02:27:56] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [02:27:56] Conundrum. And it'd probably look really great. We're going to build a temple in your community and we're also going to put this much money into your community and different resources and how. What great PR would that be, you know? Yeah, it's a free tip for you. Mormon Church. Take it.

Julia [02:28:10] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:12] Points, Great points, Brooklyn. So what else? Yeah, go ahead.

On Average, Temples Take Four Years to Complete

Julia [02:28:16] One of the other aspects of this story that I find really interesting is that they announced it three years ago and they just now broke ground, like sticking the shovels into the ground and trying to begin building this. So that's a long time for me. I guess the bats did set it back. But I. There's a. There's a website here. It's for the temples of the Church of Jesus Christ. Letter to Saints. And then I made two charts that kind of show the length of time from announcement to dedication. And so I'm not a temple worker. I don't know how this works. I don't know if they buy the. If they announce it first and then they buy the land. I don't know how. How all that pans out. And I know that you've had Lori Lee hall on Mormon Stories, who was a temple architect. Is that right?

John Dehlin [02:28:54] Yep.

Julia [02:28:54] And then she talks about. Okay, she gives some insider information. So. So she might have more information. I just haven't seen her episode in a while. But. So the. This one. This chart is showing. It's a little pie chart that shows that the. On average, temples take between four and six years to complete, from announcement to dedication. And then the next one is between two and four years. And then you've got. And I think, Hinckley, this little section of under two years. The blue, I think, is from Hinckley's initiative of getting them out faster. And then you have the six to eight years as a smaller number. And I. And if you go to the next slide, I put the numbers on the side.

John Dehlin [02:29:30] Oh, okay, okay.

Julia [02:29:31] Oh, sorry. Right here? Yeah. In the red. So there's 40 temples that were. So this is 229 temples so far. And then 40 were under two years. And then 43 were between two and four years. And then 87 were between four and six. 35 were between six and eight. And then eight plus is 24 in this Salt Lake temple. I think took five, 45, 40 years to. To make that. Anyway, I just think this is really interesting. So we. So once your temple is announced, you can expect to wait roughly six years before it seems is on average between four and six years, which I just thought was really interesting. This next chart is the same thing. It just this. This graph chart, it's. It's just a different way of showing the same information.

John Dehlin [02:30:13] But my understanding is that from insiders that would talk to me while Nelson was alive was that Nelson just decided almost on his own, that he was going to go on this temple announcing spree. And, like, all the real estate and temple departments were like, what are you doing? No one's communicated with us. How are we going to pay for this? How are we going to build all this? How are we going to manage it? But Nelson just got a. A bee in his bonnet or whatever and just kind of went rogue. And I thought was interesting that one of the first things Elder Oaks did when he was made profit is to say, we're gonna. We're gonna shut this or slow this down. And indeed they have. Right.

Julia [02:30:56] I wonder if their department has changed a lot since Oaks has been in, like, oh, let's kind of do things more carefully, like maybe selecting the land or figuring out the bats before renouncing it or whatever, anyway.

Brooklyn Alden [02:31:09] But you can never plan for bats, Julia.

Julia [02:31:11] Yeah, that's true.

Judge appoints new judge in BYU athlete sexual assault case

John Dehlin [02:31:16] All right. Okay. Couple more. We're almost done.

Brooklyn Alden [02:31:21] Yeah, we can kind of just quickly go through this one. It was just a. Interesting little small.

John Dehlin [02:31:26] It's important, and I think it's even tied to our Bricks and Minifigs episode, actually.

Julia [02:31:31] Oh, I'll take.

Brooklyn Alden [02:31:34] Okay. Yeah, we need John to enlighten us on that. So. Headline here. Motion for new judge in BYU athlete sexual assault case.

Parker Kingston Rape Case: Investigation Continues, Judge Denies

John Dehlin [02:31:42] Okay. All right.

Brooklyn Alden [02:31:42] Oh, we've got two headlines here. I'll just read the headline. Prosecutors wanted a judge off former BYU athlete Parker Kingston's rape case, alleging favoritism the request was denied. That's from the Salt Lake Tribune. Then KSL published Presiding Judge rejects claim to disqualify Judge in rape case against former BYU football football player. So first I'll just give a little, my little blurb on the background of this story and I think if you go to the next slide. Yeah, there we go. Kind of got some points up there and then I'll just read my little blurb here. But former BYU football player Pat Parker Kensington was arrested February 11, 2026, sorry Kingston. And charged with first degree felony rape in connection with an alleged incident reported to have occurred in February of 2025. So as you see my points here, it's reported by a 20 year old woman. In February of last year she alleged assault to authorities at a St. George hospital which triggered an investigation. Julie and I were discussing. I'm not totally sure how this came about. My assumption is that she went to the St George Hospital to get a rape test kit and that triggers an investigation once a rape test kit is filed. So law enforcement conducted nearly year long investigation gathering digital evidence and witness statements. So after that investigation was triggered, you know, he's not rest right away, they've got to put work in. But then I apparently found enough evidence to arrest him because February 11th Kingston was arrested and help. Sorry, you know, Kingston arrested and held in custody before being released on Bailey pending trial proceedings. So enough to warrant an arrest. Following the arrest, BYU announced he was no longer enrolled at the university and not part of the football program. So BYU on that point Kingston has pleaded not guilty and the case is proceeding through the Utah court system. Prosecutors allege evidence from communications and investigation material supports the charge while Kingston claims the encounter was consensual.

Julia [02:33:52] And so it was. So if I'm looking at this correctly, it was a, it was a year later that from her, I guess getting this, the investigation started being triggered to his arrest. Okay.

Brooklyn Alden [02:34:03] Yeah. And that's just kind of typical in you know, court systems goes very slow these investigations. I'm actually kind of surprised. I mean most of the times these rape kits will go untested and sit on the shelf for years and years and years, years and years. And it's a major issue and you know, there's organizations that try to pay to get these kids tested because you know, it's a whole complicated issue. But so I was actually kind of surprised it did get investigated within a year but so they spend that year investigating and it just shows me that they found enough credible evidence to get an arrest warrant.

Julia [02:34:41] So Yeah. I wonder if it's because we won't

Brooklyn Alden [02:34:43] know more about the mention later. The. The case is going to happen in July, the trial. So. So we'll know more then. But. Yeah, sorry, Julia, go ahead.

Julia [02:34:51] I was just saying I wonder if it didn't sit on the shelf because he's a football player and maybe that was, I don't know, making more rounds or in the news or. I don't know. I feel like that's a bigger.

Brooklyn Alden [02:35:01] I mean, it's possible. St. George, Utah, is famously very Mormon, very LDS. There's going to be a lot of Cougars fans there, I'm sure. So it's possible. There's no evidence to that right now that we've seen, but anything's possible. For me, I think a year investigation doesn't sound abnormal.

Julia [02:35:19] Okay. Okay.

Brooklyn Alden [02:35:20] Personally for this kind of case. So then I think, do I have another slide on this? Oh, yeah. So the, the more recent news that's been happening is just deciding on partial if this judge was being impartial. So dispute centered on whether the trial should be delayed due to concerns. Concerns about the alleged victim's health and their ability to testify in court. So the prosecutors, I believe, had evidence from doctors stating that her health was not going to be recovered enough in time to be able to testify in court to the best of her ability. So prosecutor Jerry Yeager claims Judge Winward, that's the main judge on the case, said Kingston's athletic career justified processing the case quickly and declined to postpone the trial despite these medical concerns reportedly being well documented. However, in the independent ruling Thursday. This is a quote from the Salt Lake Tribune. Fifth District Judge John J. Walton, who was assigned to review the matter, said that Winward provided, quote, thoughtful balancing of Kingston's interest to a speedy trial and the victim's concerns. Basically, you know, it went to a third party judge to decide if this one judge was being impartial and could continue to try the case. He decided, yes, he did a good job of balancing both the. The timeliness of both people's concerns. I do believe that he. It. They requested for it to be pushed back 12 weeks. I think he pushed it back some, but like nine weeks. So, like, it wasn't the full 12. So I think there could be an argument to that, that he was trying to balance it both ways, but I think there was something said about, like, is this going to affect his career as an athlete if it drags on too long? And the judge is Mormon, I should say, and I believe is a Cougars fan. So that's why they were concerned about him being impartial and, like, being a fan of this player, basically, which I could see happening.

Judge Winward: Ex-Mormon defendant's case should be

Julia [02:37:28] Yeah,

Brooklyn Alden [02:37:31] so that's pretty much that one. And it's just about that now. And they decided that that judge is okay to try the case. Judge Winward. And it's gonna go to court, I believe, July 11th state, early July.

John Dehlin [02:37:45] Yeah.

Julia [02:37:46] And then. John. John, did you say there's connections with the.

John Dehlin [02:37:49] Well, I'll say. As someone who's had to deal with legal issues in Utah, I was. I was involved in a defamation lawsuit a few years back, and I. Our case was assigned Judge Robert Foust, who is the son of James E. Faust, Mormon apostle. And I don't think I ever really determined what Robert Faust's religion was. But I can tell you how terrified I was to think that if Robert Faust was a faithful, active Mormon, could John de Lind, you know, excommunicated Mormon, get a fair trial from a judge who was the son of a Mormon apostle and who was faithful? And that was a really very stressful, concerning dilemma that I had to face. And interestingly, he, you know, we ended up getting a favorable judgment from him, although I can't say it wasn't a very painful process. But at least in one case, and I've heard that this can be very true, that a judge is willing, even a faithful Mormon judge is willing to look at the law and rule in ways that you might not always expect a faithful Mormon who respects the church might rule. And then in this. In this case right now, where the Mormon Church is suing me and the Open Stories foundation, like, obviously, we're like, can we even get a fair trial in Utah, either by a judge who is faithful and is not going to want to rule against the Mormon Church? I mean, what faithful Mormon judge is going to want to tell the church that their copyright's invalid or their trademark or copyright claims are invalid, or that they can't use the term Mormon, or who's going to want. What judge is going to want to rule against the Mormon Church? So. And then also even a jury trial, like in this case, the church, the Mormon Church, in their lawsuit against us, has requested a jury trial. And that does beg the question, what if the jury's half or all faithful Mormon can, again, this case get a fair trial in Utah? And, you know, it could be said the same in reverse. And so, for the most part, the attorneys that I talk to feel like many judges who are even faithful in Mormon do their best to do a good and a fair job. But there are absolutely judges that attorneys don't want because they know that the judge is going to be biased by their faith or their allegiance to the church. So it's a valid sticky thing. And I'll say it ties back to the bricks and minifigs because obviously if these business owners that own bricks and minifigs are wealthy and church members and are influential and they have connections with local American Fork judges or local American Fork police enforcement, they're going to get very different treatment, likely as faithful card carrying Mormons than out of state, never Mormons are going to get. And so I just think, you know, Utah territory started as a theocracy with Brigham Young. It's continued to be a theocracy in many ways to this day. As I understand it, the Utah legislature is like 80% faithful active Mormon, even though the the church now represents less than half of its population being faithful Mormons. I'm guessing the church benefits from law enforcement officials who, especially when it comes to abuse cases and cases involving the church or leaders in the church. I'm sure evidence and justice is often handled with an eye towards privileging the church and its interests. And I think judges can be influenced, as can police officers and investigators. So I think this issue of blind justice in Utah and judges and law enforcement officers acting and ruling in, in ways that the church would favor is very much in an issue in 2026.

Brooklyn Alden [02:42:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, even let alone saying if he's brave enough to go against the church in your case, John, I mean, what about their ward that he returns to? You could, you know, be treated differently by your ward, by for ruling against the church and being not true. So I could actually feel like it's going to be very difficult to get. You know, they could do their very, very best to be impartial, but just have all sorts of outside factors affecting that. Just because of how deeply entrenched we are in LDS culture in Utah. I think it's great.

John Dehlin [02:42:56] And I do want to say I'm sure there are ethical law enforcement officers and I'm sure there are absolutely ethical judges and I'm sure there are ethical Mormon faithful Mormon jurors who could look at law and not have their religious beliefs unduly impact their ruling. So I want to leave space for all that in Utah and legislators and faithful Mormon legislators that could still make good laws that aren't unduly biased by their faith. So I want to leave space for all that and continue to raise the question about bias, you know.

Julia [02:43:34] Yeah, that was well said.

John Dehlin [02:43:36] All right, we're almost done.

Brooklyn Alden [02:43:38] Yeah, let's wrap it up.

Governor Spencer Cox works to save the Great Salt Lake

John Dehlin [02:43:39] Is this the last story, Brooklyn?

Julia [02:43:41] Yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [02:43:41] Yes. Okay. It's obviously not like a. There wasn't a news story that came out yesterday that prompted this. But, you know, John has put together some Mormon news and I think Utah news is Mormon news. This is something that weighs heavy in mind, my mind, I've got to say, almost every day nowadays, I'm like, what are we going to do about the Great Salt Lake? I. I just will be walking and it just overwhelms me. It is a big issue and I just want to make sure.

Julia [02:44:07] And you're not in Salt Lake right now, right?

Brooklyn Alden [02:44:09] I don't live there right now. I am from Utah. I mean, I was born in Colorado. I was raised in Park City, Utah. So, you know, we love our winters. And in case people in outside Utah don't know or in Utah, the Great Salt Lake is what gives us our beautiful winters and amazing snow in Utah. And without the Great Salt Lake, we will not have winters in Utah. It's a major, major environmental disaster happening right now for more reasons than that that we'll kind of get into. But so this is a really important issue for me. I just think, you know, I'm going to get on my soapbox for a second and get it out there.

Julia [02:44:43] But I love that it's on your mind even though you're not right next to it or near it.

Brooklyn Alden [02:44:47] Oh, absolutely. I mean, my whole family's there. I most likely will move back there eventually, you know, have family there. It's extremely important to me, and I mean so important that. Here we go. This photo on the left here is from New York Times article, which is a really great article. I think people should check out if you're into this

John Dehlin [02:45:07] is dying is drying. Can Utah Save It?

Brooklyn Alden [02:45:10] That's the headline for New York Times. So I'll just kind of read through this a little bit. The Great Salt Lake has dropped to historically low water levels due to long term drought and heavy water diversion for agriculture and urban use. As the lake shrinks, salinity increases, threatening key ecosystems, including the brine shrimp. We love the brine shrimp in Utah. Migratory birds and overall biodiversity. This is the most important part to me. The exposed lake bed is creating toxic dust storms that impact air quality across the Wasatch front. So there are lots of toxic minerals that, you know, naturally occur underneath the Great Salt Lake that as it evaporates, those minerals are not held down anymore. And they are now being blown around and it will cause disastrous results for the air quality in Utah, which is already one of the worst in the world, I might add. Governor, here we go. Governor Spencer Cox said you discussed with President Trump a potential federal funding around 1 billion. This is recent just discussion, but. But that's good. Yeah, something like that would be good. I just. It's going to take something like this of really, really big moves to save the Great Salt Lake because it is dying fast. Here's just a quick news story to give people some background. We got an update we want to

Julia [02:46:28] share with you today after Governor Spencer Cox has been working with President Trump for months to secure $1 billion to save the Great Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [02:46:36] But today that is one step closer to happening. The President is requesting that a billion dollars in his budget be approved. Arcade Gardner has more on that. While that billion dollars will need congressional approval, this is exciting news for state leaders and conservationists. I spoke to some to learn how this money could be used and why saving the lake is of national concern. The Great Salt Lake. Governor Cox says he's had many conversations with the President about the topic. We may get the full billion.

Julia [02:47:05] We're very hopeful for that.

John Dehlin [02:47:06] How could it be used? What we're hoping is that Congress will set up some sort of regional plan that can be implemented through the Department of the Interior, where we'll have some ongoing funding that will allow us to do the projects that need to be done. Great Salt Lake Commissioner Brian Steed says those projects include updating infrastructure. During the high years of the 1980s,

Brooklyn Alden [02:47:26] we kind of went out and re

John Dehlin [02:47:27] engineered the lake from natural conditions to take water away from the lake. Bringing that water back into the lake is really important. And that can be as much as 30 to 80,000 acre feet of water per year. That's 30 to 80,000American football fields A foot deep in water. That's a lot of water that we'd be able to get back into the lake every year. A drying lake means worsening living conditions along the Wasatch front. But Seed says it's also a national concern in terms of the food supply. Sulfate effect of potash is mined at the lake and used in fertilizer for crops. And around 50% of globally farmed fish and shrimp are fed food made from brine shrimp from the lake. That's a hugely important part of food security. And we all care about protein right now. Losing that source of protein would be

Brooklyn Alden [02:48:15] really detrimental to all of us. And this is something that we can

John Dehlin [02:48:17] have sustainably forever, as long as we

Brooklyn Alden [02:48:20] have a healthy grace.

John Dehlin [02:48:20] Hot lake conservationists like Ben Abbott are also hoping the budget is approved. Making sure that we pull off the world's first saline lake rescue is mission critical. And so having the President's support and hopefully Congress's support at a federal level is exactly what we need right now. He says human intervention is likely the only way to secure the lake's future. So if you look at the weather pattern over the last 30 years or so in Utah, we get a couple of good water years and then we have a long period that isn't good. We may only have one more set of good water years before the Olympics. So we need to use this as a catalyst to really change our relationship with water. Steed says the state will be working with cities to do just that by improving conservation efforts.

Brooklyn Alden [02:49:06] Think if you put in more incentives

John Dehlin [02:49:08] for smart timers or more incentives to use grass in meaningful ways versus unmeaningful ways. Reporting from Great Salt Lake, Kade Garner, ABC4 News. All right, Brooklyn.

The LDS Church Donates $1 Million to Save the Great Salt

Brooklyn Alden [02:49:24] Yeah, just a little background info for people that, you know, aren't following it. I mean, this has been happening for years and years and it's now just at the point where it's going to die without severe intervention, human intervention, it's on its way out. It's entirely possible we won't rescue it, hopefully. I'm really hoping, you know, at the final hour people are going to come together and do something. But hey, this is, you know, it's credit to the church here. This is one thing I enjoy that the LDS Church is helping in this Great Salt Lake restoration effort. Includes major participation from the LDS Church, one of Utah's largest land and water right holders. In 2023, the LDS Church donated more than 20,000 acre feet of water rights, which equates to about 5,700 irrigation shares to be permanently dedicated to the Great Salt Lake. This water donations considered one of the largest private contributions aimed at directly increasing inflows to the lake and restoring surrounding wetlands. So I mean, I think that's major kudos to the church that it's the biggest contribution that they've had so far. LDS leadership has publicly framed involvement as part of a stewardship and religious responsibility ability to care for natural resources. Despite these contributions, expert note that even large donations cover only a small fraction of the total water volume needed for full lake recovery. So trying to give, you know, some kudos to the church, I think Utah news is church news because the LDS church is so heavily invested in Utah that they're completely intertwined, you know, so everything that affects Utah is going to affect the LDS Church. So I think they're doing the right thing by trying to save it. You know, also providing for the communities there that we love, our winters in Utah and all the things that provides. So I think. Yeah. This is from Mormon newsroom. This is from the LDS website of them talking about. This was from last year, last September. So yeah, this isn't new new but Church of Jesus Christ continues to partner, continues partnership to deliver more water to the Great Salt Lake. And I just highlighted a few parts here if we want to go through them. But the church is providing a long term lease of between 4 and 74,000 additional acre feet of water each year. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints recognizes we have a role to play in caring for our natural environment environment here in Utah. This water lease is one of the several projects underway we hope reflects our commitment to wise stewardship. Like we said, it's the largest single water donation in the history of Utah. This water delivery is another step in achieving the goals shared by all involved organizations to conserve water, improve water levels and focus on the overall health of the Great Salt Lake and its ecosystem. So something I love the church is doing. I hope that they keep going in this direction. This is me just saying people should absolutely read this New York Times article on it. She does a really, really great job laying out the issues and kind of what we can do going forward. And yeah, I think it's super important.

John Dehlin [02:52:36] So yeah, I love it. Brooklyn. I'll just add I had heard that the Romney's like the children of Mitt Romney were involved. And so I googled it and I found an article from, from last year that says Great Salt Lake Rising is a coalition led by Josh Romney and it committed 100 million to projects that will develop water to the lake and improve habitat. Along with Ducks Unlimited, the nation's leading wetlands and waterfowl conservation organization pledged an additional 100 million. So I, I think yeah, kudos to, you know, had we criticism of Cox and sometimes we have criticisms of the LDS church, but I love it that we're not at all afraid to also say good job Elder Cox and even good job Donald Trump if he's truly willing to invest a billion dollars in helping save the Great Salt Lake. And that's great and kudos to the Romney's and anyone else who's pitching in.

Brooklyn Alden [02:53:40] Yeah. And if you read the New York Times article, it really explains, will explain to you why this is not an issue exclusive to Utah. This will have reverberating consequences throughout the entire country in many, many ways. So this is not just a Utah issue. It's one of the, like, major ecological issues happening in North America right now. So, yeah, just super important. I hope we keep fighting for it. Yeah. Also, like, I don't know if we noted, we talked about the brine shrimp. That is the only place in the world where brine shrimp exists. So without the Great Salt Lake, they go extinct. It's a really interesting biodiversity that happens there. As fourth graders in Utah, you go to the Great Salt Lake and you collect brine shrimp. And, you know, it's a big part of Utah when you're growing up there. And it'll be sad if it's gone, which it will be without intervention. So in the word out there.

Julia [02:54:30] Yeah, that's great.

John Dehlin [02:54:32] I love it.

Julia [02:54:33] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:54:36] I thought. I thought it was fun. Alyssa Grenfell is in the chat, And I think she gave a little shout out. What did she say? Oh, yeah, here it is. Here it is. Brooklyn writes. So great to hear from Brooklyn Live stream. So we love you, Alyssa Grenfell.

Alyssa Grenfell on Brooklyn Live Stream

Brooklyn Alden [02:55:01] And I don't think people know we're. We're related. You know, we're so sisters in law, basically. Oh, that's Alyssa's sister is married to my brother, so we're all family.

John Dehlin [02:55:11] Love you, Alyssa, and a couple others. Arabiano writes, thanks for doing this and love seeing Alyssa. Someone else joined just kind of the YouTube membership. Lavender a welcome and then rye the guy. 6,000, 914. I'm yet to meet a politician who stands for anything. They usually go whatever the way the money sways them. Happy Pride Month to everyone who celebrates it. So, yeah, let me just say again, Julia and Brooklyn, thank you both so much for taking on this assignment last minute. We love Megan, of course, generally unquotable. And again, we would love to have her back. But I also love the idea of us being able to do this on our own when we want or need to. And Alyssa and Brooklyn, I think you both have amazing, wonderful, delightful insights and wise, thoughtful insights. And so it's so fun that y' all plan today and that you. You're such lovely co hosts. So thank you.

Julia [02:56:22] Oh, thank you, John.

Brooklyn Alden [02:56:24] Thanks so much. Yes, we miss you, Megan.

Julia [02:56:26] Yes, we do, too.

John Dehlin [02:56:28] Yeah, anytime, Megan.

Brooklyn Alden [02:56:30] But like you say, show must go on. So we'll step up and also shout

Happy Pride Month!

John Dehlin [02:56:34] out to Rebecca Bibliotech or Mormonish, and also to Radio Free Mormon and Bill Real and the Mormon News. Is it? What is it? Mormon News Weekly or. I forget what they call their show even though I named it at some point.

Julia [02:56:47] Newscast.

Brooklyn Alden [02:56:48] Mormonish newscast. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:50] Norman Newscast every Mondays at 6:15pm yeah.

Brooklyn Alden [02:56:55] The recent episode was great.

John Dehlin [02:56:56] Utah time.

Brooklyn Alden [02:56:58] Yeah. Rebecca's out here breaking stories. She was the only one I saw that covered that church building.

John Dehlin [02:57:05] Yeah. Also Mormonism live on Wednesday nights, but and check out more minish and all the other great channels. Anyway, thank you, Alyssa. Thank you, Julia. Thank you, Brooklyn.

Julia [02:57:15] Yeah, thank you, John.

John Dehlin [02:57:18] Any final words? Yeah, thank you. Any final words, Brooklyn?

Brooklyn Alden [02:57:24] No, I'm going to leave my final words with let's save the Great Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [02:57:27] Okay.

Brooklyn Alden [02:57:28] Protect our winter.

Julia [02:57:29] I guess mine is Happy Pride Month. To those who celebrated Happy Pride Month.

John Dehlin [02:57:38] No more positive things to go anyway. All right, thanks everyone. Thanks for joining today on Mormon Stories. Please like and subscribe and comment. Please share if you donate. Thank you. We couldn't do this without you. If you don't donate and you want to see this type of content continue, you can go to mormonstories.org donate and become a monthly donor or one time donor. If you want to support our legal fund, we have set that up mormonstories.org legal you can donate to help fund our defense against the Mormon Church suing us, we believe to silence and bankrupt us. Bankrupt us. That's what I believe. We'll see how that goes in court. And mostly though, just subscribing, liking, commenting, emailing us@mormonstoriesgmail.com is great. If you want to be a guest on the show, go to mormonstories.org apply, record a 3 minute video, fill out the application. We would love to consider you to be on the show as well. And that's it. Thanks again for joining us today. Hope to see you next week on the Mormon News, whatever we call it, Mormon News of Mormon Stories. Be good to each other, be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories. Thanks everybody. Take care.