Mormon Church Issues New Restrictions on Transgender Members

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 23, 2024. This is a special edition breaking news Mormon Story Podcast. A new story has hit the Mormon news world and I'll just share a couple of the headlines. One source is NBC News. So this is a national news story and the title, the headline is Mormon Church Issues New Restrictions on Transgender Members. The new policies include a measure to annotate trans members records grouping them with members who have committed sexual violence or child abuse. You know, so you could basically say a headline is, you know, Mormon Church Relegates Transgender Members to the Status of Child abusers. I don't know if that's too harsh of a, of a headline or a sub headline, but that's what occurs to me. The Salt Lake Tribune has also, you know, covered this along with other news outlets. The headline for the Salt Lake Tribune is New LDS Church Policies Relegate Trans Members to Second Class Status. Scholars Warn. And I'm sure we could come up with all sorts of different headlines, but it's very disturbing. This reminds me of 2015 when the Mormon Church issued its exclusion policy, basically categorizing same sex married Mormons as worse than rapists, child abusers, pedophiles, etc. Of course, they undid that policy four years after they implemented it, after it was called doctrine. And that has caused tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Mormons to leave the church. Understandably so. And this policy feels very similar and I'm just so grateful to have back on Mormon Stories podcast two faces that will be familiar to many of you we're bringing back to Mormon Stories, Shay and Amanda Scott. Hey guys, how are you?

Mormon Stories

Shay Scott [00:02:19] Hi

John Dehlin [00:02:21] back. I'm sorry we're doing it under these circumstances.

Amanda Scott [00:02:26] Yeah, it's, it's been a rough week.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] Yeah. Would you guys mind just really quickly introduce reintroducing yourselves to Mormon Stories and we'll make sure you, y', all, y' all have been on Mormon Stories before. I'll make sure Julia includes the link to your long form interview. We're going to have you again. We're going to go to St. George and interview y' all again to get an update. But please just remind our audience a bit about, about who you are, if you don't mind.

Shay Scott [00:02:55] Yeah. So I'm Shay. I was a member of the church all my life and based on the fact that I'm transgender, caused Amanda and I to go down a the rabbit hole of Mormonism and it brought us to this point.

Amanda Scott [00:03:12] So, yeah, we were married 13 years back in 2019 when Shay came out to me. And yeah, our story was basically, surely our religion has great answers for us that can help us through and disappointment after disappointment, one question leading to another, and we left the faith. Still have a lot of love for some of the. The things that we carry with us still. But yeah, it's really disappointing to see the church heading into this direction with these policies.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] Yeah, super disappointing. All right, well, I know that it's not your job to educate the rest of us and that this is a probably a stressful and a hurtful time. And so we just can't, I guess. Thank you enough for your willingness to both educate us but also just engage in this dialogue. So thank you. Thank you both. So, really quickly, we're going to cover this in the longer form story, but I guess, Shay, your story. Do you want to just give a teeny bit of a teaser of an update since. Since you came on Mormon Stories podcast?

Shay on Being Transformer on Mormon Stories

Shay Scott [00:04:27] Yeah, I mean, first of all, I look different, so. So no, I've. Since going on Mormon Stories, I've obviously socially transitioned and I've never been more happy and in alignment with who I am than I could have ever imagined. So. So, yeah, that a lot has changed. That was a very hard time of our life, for sure, the early days of our deconstruction. But I, you know, I'm of the pain and there is a God. The way we find God is by connecting with ourselves and. And I feel like me. And that's made me so happy. So,

John Dehlin [00:05:06] yeah, that's beautiful. And you know, obviously when a marriage partner transitions, that's a transition for both partners. And Amanda and Shay, you both have a beautiful YouTube channel and Instagram channel and probably TikTok, where you've been sort of sharing your experiences about that entire transition. And I know that's a lot that we're going to be covering, but I guess I am. And I want to invite you to provide an update as well for you. Right.

Amanda and Shay's Transgender Transition

Amanda Scott [00:05:40] Yeah. It's so interesting because we processed this just alone together for quite a few years before, about a year before we were really public with anybody else, and then certainly for several years before we went public online. And so I would say it's. I see it as a real privilege and pleasure to dispel a lot of the myths that are out there. And I understand because this is the kind of thing, you know, having your partner come out to his trans and transition is just not something that you would necessarily be able to empathize with unless you'd experienced it. I remember hearing about these situations, and, you know, I didn't understand it at all. But, yeah, we're. We're very happy. And when someone transitions, they are still them. So. So Shay, she's still the same person she's always been. And I think important to our story is something that's very different from the stereotype, which was that Shay was conscious of my feelings every step of the way, and I don't think she would have transitioned unless I had been okay with it. And I'm not saying that's the right thing to do. This is just how our story has been. But, yeah, it's. I would say we are at peace. Even though things are challenging on a national level and things like that, we feel at peace because our love and our family is strong. And when other people don't understand, we do our best to help them if we can.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] Beautiful. Okay, so I guess it might make sense to provide a little bit of history. So, of course, the Mormon Church hasn't been super trans affirming historically, but things just got worse. So maybe do you all want to provide us with just a brief, like, two to five minute overview of kind of where things have been so that then we could talk about how they changed? I know that's probably putting you on the spot a little bit.

Mormon Church's Trans Affirming History

Amanda Scott [00:07:43] No, that's all right. I mean, and Shea, feel free to. To hop in. I'm. I'm kind of the studier in Shay's, but Shea has very strong opinions about all this, of course, but it just like the national discussions, LGBTQ folks in general, trans issues are a more recent thing that has been on the church's radar. But for several years, they have been drilling in the point that sex and gender are the same thing and that sex slash gender are essential to our eternal makeup. So they have reaffirmed that several times. The talk that comes to mind to me vividly, because it was a moment that I realized the church was not trustworthy on this at all, was the women's session in October 2019 that I listened to right after she came up to me. And in it, President Oaks said he called LGBTQ people in general as suffering from a devilish distortion. It's kind of like wrapped into a paragraph at the very end of it. But I stopped and thought, what I know this is not a devil's distortion. Like, I know my spouse. This is not what this is. So the rhetoric has been going around, but this is very definitive. There's been things in the handbook in the past that took a little bit softer approach, and this is the most definitive thing they've done. So.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] Yeah, yeah. Anything you want to add to start, Shay?

Shay Scott [00:09:21] Yeah. What year was it that they changed it with the hormones?

Amanda Scott [00:09:25] It was before you came out.

Shay Scott [00:09:26] I know it was. Yeah. So it wasn't that. That long ago that they actually kind of gave us a false sense of, I feel like, hope maybe for the queer community or trans community, and that the church was actually basing the research off from science and what all the major medical associations were saying, which was to say that using hormone replacement therapy for trans individuals is a way to alleviate gender dysphoria. And it was. What was so shocking about this is they took something that was based off from science and just not only just got rid of it, but they spoke out against it, like saying not to. Not to affirm people by using this. Because for a lot of trans people, it's a way of preventing suicide. It really is. And everyone's on different scales of how they experience gender dysphoria, but it's like, that's the most unhumane thing I can think of that they could do. I mean, of course, there's so much more to unpack about this, but that was the big shift that really happened. I think that's making people scratch the head, going, what are they doing?

Amanda Scott [00:10:24] So, yeah. So just to clarify, for five or six years, I'd say at least the handbook policy was individuals who experienced gender dysphoria or identify as trans could take hormones as long as they weren't outwardly presenting in any way, as long as they were keeping that under wraps, essentially. But that's now gone.

John Dehlin [00:10:44] Yeah. Yeah. And I guess it's worth saying, like, obviously the Mormon Church, if you go back 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago, they would. They would say anything related to transgender, you know, decisions or identity would be bad, horrible. You know, they would use the worst possible words you can imagine. And then, you know, obviously, the church started becoming more LGB affirming just in the past five to 10 years, but probably just ignored the trans issue. And then. And then, like you said, they. They. They started to make signs of maybe being. Being a little bit progressive. Of course, there's the proclamation on the family, which basically says gender is eternal, which is just this idea that whatever, even if you're intersex, you know, whatever gender you happen to be assigned at birth, that's your eternal gender, which is a really tough marker to stick in the ground because it doesn't leave them a lot of wiggle room, which I don't think they really want wiggle room, but it really. It really backs them into the corner. You know, even if they're willing to show some progress, we know there's only so much progress they can actually show without undoing what most members think is a revelation, which is the proclamation on the family. Is that right?

Shay Scott [00:12:14] Yeah, absolutely. The biggest problem the church has right now is their battle with science. Honestly, like, they're. We're starting to realize that biology is way more complicated than we ever thought. So the issue, of course, like using being gay as an example, is the church obviously held the stance for a very long time that no one was born gay. Now they accept that reality. But the problem is now that you're starting to see research where they're saying that being trans actually might be biological, that it's something that happens in the first or second trimester, then. Then that creates an issue because then that means God created trans people the way they are. You know what I mean? So it's just. It's something that they're always going to butt heads with that as we develop more and understand more about how the mind works. It's just so crazy, especially considering the fact that if you look at, like, they talk about gender being, you know, this eternal concept, but it's like, you see the multiple ways. I'll put my Mormon hat on the multiple ways that the children of God are born into this world and we accept that as a reality, but they can't accept the reality that maybe. That maybe the Spirit could be. That was their test and everyone else was kicking them on the ground. I don't know. It's just. It just seems so crazy how they can't fathom another possibility with that. So, yeah, yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:13:32] And just to comment on that, but like, in a different direction, where my head goes, is doubling down on this eternal gender concept. I mean, if you have a long enough historical memory, that idea is nonsense. There are certain things in our power structures, which is patriarchy, right. That has put, you know, the power to men in our society. So that's one thing. But then when you look at things like colonization, there was always an effort. Indigenous people of North America, for example, were considered effeminate, right? The. The male indigenous population was considered effeminate. And even if you look at early Utah history, one of the reasons why the Relief Society is put back into play by Brigham Young is to cover the. The native, indigenous women, because a lot of them didn't have tops on. And also to help feminize them is kind of one thing that I read alongside of that as well. So it's doubling down on this idea in the moment of what gender is, which is, of course, made up and socially constructed. But you have to step back and look far enough back to realize, oh, this hasn't always gender. Isn't this, like, universal, platonic ideal?

Shay Scott [00:14:49] It's.

Amanda Scott [00:14:49] It changes a lot.

John Dehlin [00:14:51] Yeah. All right, well, let's just jump into it. Y' all were kind enough to put together kind of an outline, and maybe we should just go through it just to kind of educate people what the changes are. And. And so many. I watched Julie Hanks's TikTok about this. Shay, you did a really great one. Do you want to tell people what. What your Instagram, YouTube and TikTok handles are just. Just so that people can know? Yep.

Your New Instagram, YouTube and TikTok Accounts

Amanda Scott [00:15:24] Shay's your account.

Shay Scott [00:15:26] So Shay. Shay Scott. I'm like, one of the lucky people. It's the first and last name.

Amanda Scott [00:15:31] She's got her name.

Shay Scott [00:15:31] Shea Scott. And then Amanda's.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] Is it S H A Y S

Shay Scott [00:15:36] H A Y E S C T T. And then, yeah, we're on Instagram, TikTok, and of course, YouTube. And then Amanda's is.

Amanda Scott [00:15:43] Mine's like doctor. Like Dr. Amanda Scott, because my name wasn't available.

John Dehlin [00:15:49] Okay, perfect. All right, so where should we begin on summarizing what the changes are and then kind of talking about them a little bit?

The Core Handbook Changes

Amanda Scott [00:15:58] I think maybe the best place to start is because we're basing all this right. On these documents that the church relies on heavily, the leadership. And so in the core handbook, there's restrictions against baptism. And I can read that if you like, John, or if you'd like to. Either way.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] Yeah. Is that just from the outline? I'll go ahead and just. I'll show the outline and we could talk about it. Is that okay?

Amanda Scott [00:16:25] Yeah, that'd be great.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] Okay, so this is. This is the current. This is in the past. This is what. What it's changed to.

Amanda Scott [00:16:33] This is correct.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] Okay. All right, so the first one. I'll just read it. Baptism and confirmation are received according to a person's biological sex at birth, where the individuals who do not pursue surgical, medical, or social transition away from their biological sex at birth may be baptized and confirmed. Individuals who have taken steps to transition and then transition back to their biological sex at birth and are worthy and committed to keeping God's commandments may be baptized and confirmed. Mission presidents are stake presidents for an eight Year old address individual circumstances with sensitivity and Christ like love. Okay. Can you all kind of translate this church manual verbiage into what the implications are?

Mormon Church: Transgender People Can't Be Baptized

Amanda Scott [00:17:24] So essentially barring first presidency approval. Right. That's the caveat with this, that someone who has transitioned in any way. So that could be just hormone treatment, that could be just changing one's pronouns. That could be, you know, presenting in a way that's. That someone sees as not appropriate for their sex. Slash, gender is not worthy of baptism. Yeah. What else would you add to that?

Shay Scott [00:17:55] Yeah, which is an interesting take because there are recent, I think, accounts of trans people being baptized into the church. So I think, in fact, I believe it's. Richard Osler talked about it, where a trans woman joined and had to have permission from the First Presidency. So that's what blows my mind is I'm just thinking like, I don't know, it just makes no sense.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] So just to be clear, in the past, the church has allowed transgender individuals to be baptized. And now they're going back and saying if you have either, if you have transitioned without detransitioning, you cannot be baptized. Is that right?

Amanda Scott [00:18:39] Yes.

Shay Scott [00:18:40] Yeah, that wasn't always the case.

Amanda Scott [00:18:42] Yeah, it seems to have always. Because I think all the examples we heard of have required leadership approval. Right. But it's just all these policies codifying it and spelling it out, I think in itself is a very deliberate thing. And also mentioning it someone, if they do transition, that is a different scenario. Right. And people detransition, you know, that's a valid experience. So I don't think there's any shame in that. But a forced detransition, saying to somebody, don't be who you know yourself to be in order to fit into this church is a very damaging message from the church.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's. That's weird. I'm going to just say I'm aware of transgender Mormons who have been not only been allowed to go to the temple, but have been sealed in the temple. Now, I. I can't say names. I don't have permission to say that. But I just want to take it one step further. Not only are they backtracking in terms of just basic levels of membership, you know, with approval, transgender people have been allowed to not only take out their endowments, but also get sealed in the temple in some rare instances. So for me, this is very similar to the Mormon Church's priesthood and temple ban on black people, where there was much confusion, different things were allowed. It was willy nilly depend on what was happening, who knew what leaders were involved. And it's, it's really kind of chaotic. And, you know, this is no different than, than that experience. I don't know if you guys have heard about those types of situations as well.

Amanda Scott [00:20:28] Yeah, yeah.

Shay Scott [00:20:30] And it's just really what it comes down to. It's the manifestation of choosing dogma over love and compassion. What we, what we, what we believe the historical Jesus would have done. Right. So. And it's always going to be a recurring problem with the church because every time they take a hard stance on something, it always contradicts itself later. It, like, almost always creates. And how many lives or how much pain was created along the way. It's just. And for. Taught to just brush it off is. That's what. We didn't have enough information at the time or whatever the excuse is. But it's, it's really, it's. I look at this policy and I honestly try to put my, my Mormon hat on going, like, how would I justify this? And I just. You can't. It's. It's just blatant bigotry. It's not. You often hear members say, you know, you know, we can still love you, and disagree. Which I've gotten a lot of those comments from, like, that's not love. How is, how is that this love? It's just. I don't know. It's. Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:21:23] And I, I wonder if some people. I think there's a general attitude out there that. Well, you hear two things. The trans movement is taking over everything, or people assume that trans people are not in their congregations. In fact, when you came out to me, I thought, I bet we're the only Mormon couple, like, anywhere going through this. Which is funny now because we hear from a lot of people in the church that are dealing with this privately, and they don't know. They don't know what to do. And so my heart really breaks for those people, and this makes it so much harder for them.

Shay Scott [00:21:55] And we get a lot of, A lot of private messages from current active members of the church who have kids who are trans and just pleading for, like, advice and help and especially this policy going, how can I, how can I stay in this? It's just, it's really so sad. And I don't know how, how we're supposed to just be, like, okay with that? Like, I shouldn't say we. How they're supposed to be okay with that? Because these are people who, you know, who, who hold on to the, the theology and it's Just, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] Anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, the first headline is transgender individuals are not welcome in the Mormon Church and are not allowed to become members. That, that's headline number one. And Gerardo, I mean, how cruel is that? And Gerardo is, is gratefully texting me and he's reminding me that, you know, even though the alleged prohibitions, I mean, for those who have never been Mormon, it's important to understand that the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, you know, all the, all the fundamental core Mormon scriptures are silent on same sex sexuality. Okay? So, so in all the modern day revelation that Joseph Smith received, God said no, not a single thing about homosexuality, same sex sexuality, being gay, lesbian or bisexual. Okay? Now of course people can take certain verses out of the Old Testament or the New Testament and claim that the Bible forbids, you know, same sex sexuality. And of course you just have to listen to people like Dan McClellan, we've done a whole multi hour interview with him where Bible scholars who are knowledgeable are basically saying the Bible doesn't say what we think it says about, you know, same sex sexuality. So even that's wrong. Right. But the point Gerardo wants to make sure that I make is that all of Those scriptures are 100% silent about gender transitioning or transgender people. So there's literally zero scriptural basis for a denial of baptism into a Christian religion according to Jesus Christ or Paul or anywhere in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of great price, etc. There's zero precedence for this. Am I wrong?

Mormon Church: Transgender People Are Not Welcome

Shay Scott [00:24:30] Shane? Amanda?

Amanda Scott [00:24:32] Yeah, and I, and I would say too, people might say, well, there's nothing about that in the Bible because this is a new thing. This is a new crazy thing, which

Shay Scott [00:24:40] movement, which is very politicized.

Amanda Scott [00:24:43] Yes. Which again is not true. Like if you read up just for a few minutes. And it's interesting because I'm a literary nerd. So if you look back to one of our earliest written texts, the epic Epic of Gilgamesh, we have gender non conforming people in that plot, which was based on legend. And even if you want to take the history of the Bible within Greco Roman mythology, we have Atlante, who is essentially a trans woman. These figures have been with us for a long time in the foundations of Hinduism, for example, we have bodhisattvas who transform their gender. It's not a new idea and it's been held up as divine. So in the ancient world. And so the argument of this Is some crazy new fad, if you have enough historical memory, is just not true.

Shay Scott [00:25:31] Colonizers.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Transgender individuals have been with us since the beginning of history and before. That's just. That's just a fact. So this is not new, and it's not something new to the church. The church could have made certainly by the 50s and 60s, but even before. I mean, I don't know. Brigham Young's son is well known to have presented as female. I'm sure you all have heard that. I don't know if, you know, we can't always confuse, for example, drag with transgender. Do you all know about Brigham Young's own son? Do you all know about that story?

Amanda Scott [00:26:10] Yes. I'm blanking on his drag name because it was Brigham's. It's. I think it was Brigham C. Snow, like his actual namesake. Oh, it's such a great stage name, too. But, yeah, and I think it's that drag is a different kind of gender nonconformity, and maybe it's. Oh, Madame Pastorini. Yes. Julia knew what it was. That's it. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:35] And Julia's saying the. I guess the. The given name is B. Morris Young.

Amanda Scott [00:26:41] Yeah, I think it was Brigham Morris Young, but he probably didn't remember that. Yeah, that's. I mean, that's gender nonconformity. It's just the different.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:26:50] Trans community is such a diverse community. Once you start to talking to people, there's a lot of different ways people show up in the world, but it poses similar threats to the. Or perceived threats, I should say, to the status quo.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:27:08] Of the church.

John Dehlin [00:27:10] My friend. My friend Bo. Hey, Bishop Bo. He's reminding us that he's aware of two trans women joining the church just in the past year. Again, Bo is a bishop in Oakland for five years, and he's fired up about this issue, and we could talk about why in just a second, but. Okay, so that's. Headline one is that the Mormon Church declares transgender people not welcome. Can't be baptized, can't become members. Should we go to the second to the second policy?

Mormon Church: Transgender People Are Not Welcome

Amanda Scott [00:27:42] Well, I might add real quickly. So the handbook says explicitly they are welcome to come to sacrament meeting, and we should treat them with love and sensitivity. Perpetuates that love and sensitivity. Love and sensitivity. So it uses those words. Right. Which is so Mormon.

Shay Scott [00:27:58] Which. Which is the way I was saying, you need to be nice to them. We don't have to like.

Amanda Scott [00:28:05] But does say explicitly they are welcome to come to sacrament, to come to services, but just not any gender Specific meetings that don't. It has to align with their sex at birth.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right, well, let's jump to the next part of the, the new policy. Okay, so you have, you have some points here in terms of the policy analysis. Do you want to. Should we mention those? Should we read those?

President Trump on the New Policy

Amanda Scott [00:28:34] I think we touched on those already, John.

John Dehlin [00:28:36] Okay. Okay. All right. Okay. So the next thing you have here is kind of the, the doctrinal point that sex and gender are two different things. Do we do. Have we covered that sufficiently as well, or do you want to talk about that?

The issue of intersex people

Amanda Scott [00:28:51] Yeah, I think we have. I think we should get down to the new intersects. No, we haven't. Perhaps we could touch on that a little. I mean, we could talk all day, honestly. Yeah, but we're, you know, we're coming at this from like a trans feminine experience, which is Shay's experience, but for intersex people, for non binary people. I mean, there's so many things that aren't even acknowledged. And there is a link to policy about intersex people, but they don't use the word intersex. And it's just kind of a muddy policy saying, oh, it's, it's extraordinarily rare and it kind of dismisses it. But these are biological realities, right?

John Dehlin [00:29:36] Like, so some people are born, for example, with ambiguous genitalia where it's. They have both or they have neither, or they have something that could, you know, so that's a fact. And then there are people born with chromosomal, we'll say irregularities or differences, where again, the chromosomally they could be defined as male or female or both. And so clearly, when God designed humans, either he made mistakes or he designed multiple, multiple sexes beyond two. And so, you know, it's just really important for people to understand that it's never, not even biologically, just as simple as male and female. And it's a. Is it 1% of the population? It's a very large percent of the population that is, is biologically or anatomically intersex. Is that true?

Amanda Scott [00:30:37] Yeah, the number that's thrown around a lot is like 1.7% or sometimes it's rounded up to 2% and different. Different studies give us a different number. But my understanding is that it's kind of an umbrella number for the intersex population. And so, you know, critics of using that kind of number will say that, you know, genitalia or that manifestation of intersex is a smaller number. But to me, it's like, you know, we could look at percentage of our population who are disabled, et cetera. The fact that it is a biological reality, like, it doesn't matter to me, like what point percent of the population it is. It is something that is naturally occurring. And so whether it's 1.7% or far smaller number. Those are people. Those are real people. Right. And they shouldn't be dismissed.

John Dehlin [00:31:31] Yeah. And. And for a believing person, they're people that God created. I, I'll just show. Gerardo just shared with me the link to a web page on being intersex. People who have. People who are intersex have genitals, chromosomes, or reproductive organs that don't fit into a male female sex binary. Their genitals might not match the reproductive organs, or they may have traits of both. Being intersex may be evident at birth, childhood, later in adulthood, or never. Being intersex isn't a disorder, disease, or condition. And it, it, it says one in a hundred are intersex, but 2% of people worldwide have intersex traits. So again, you know, the church. It just seems like the church is just totally ignoring this point. Is that right? Kind of just.

Amanda Scott [00:32:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:32:25] I think it serves them to ignore it.

Shay Scott [00:32:28] Right?

John Dehlin [00:32:29] Yes.

Shay Scott [00:32:30] Which is what we're seeing happen right now. It's like they'd rather just say we're going to create a way to get rid of all this because it's a threat to our theology. So we'll use kind words, flowery words to justify it. But then we don't care if we lose people along the way because it, it crumbles the whole theology that they believe they have to stand on. So.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] Yeah. Okay, so there's another section in, in your, in your analysis that starts with worthy members. Is that okay to read that? Worthy individuals. Are you saying that we've. We've kind of already covered that?

New Policies for Transgender People in the Church

Amanda Scott [00:33:10] We've already covered it.

John Dehlin [00:33:11] Just.

Amanda Scott [00:33:12] New policies from the church participation. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] New policies from church participation of individuals who identify as transgender. Preferred names and pronouns. Official church records reflect a member's biological sex at birth. So, you know, whatever your parents thought. Thought your sex was then, or doctor then you got assigned that gender at birth, even if they got it wrong because they're babies that can be born anatomically looking male or female, but. But biologically, chromosomally they're not. But regardless, whatever your parents and. Or the doctor assigned in terms of your gender at birth. Right. Then. Then you know, you're stuck with that gender, with the, with the, you know, names and pronouns, etcetera. But anyway, it says preferred names and pronouns. Official church records reflect a member's biological sex at birth. The use of preferred names and pronouns should be a matter left between individuals and their family, friends, and church members. Local leaders should not determine or prescribe how members address an individual. If a member has a preferred name, it may be noted in the preferred name field on the membership record. Okay, so can y' all translate what this means?

Amanda Scott [00:34:32] I don't know exactly what it means, but it was interesting seeing some of the responses that were favorable. You know, some people are happy about this being outlined, and they. One particular short. We were watching the man talking, was saying, see, I knew it wasn't true that we were required to use someone's preferred pronouns. That's so great. The church isn't saying we have to, because that would be so woke of them.

Shay Scott [00:34:58] Yeah. If my bishop told me that, I would get up and walk out of the room. It's just like. It's just.

Amanda Scott [00:35:02] Yeah.

Shay Scott [00:35:02] Feels a fire anyway,

Amanda Scott [00:35:06] so I wonder if that is clarifying.

Shay Scott [00:35:10] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:35:11] No, you don't have to use someone's preferred pronouns if you don't want to. And let the family kind of hand. Let them deal with that, is what I read there.

John Dehlin [00:35:20] Okay. Yeah. So as I'm trying. As I'm just trying to make sense of this, you know, it is saying. It seems to be saying, respect people's preferred names and pronouns and that local leaders shouldn't force someone to use pronouns they don't want to or force them to use a dead name if they don't want them to. But it's also not changing the name in the church records, and it's. It's making it ambiguous as to who gets to decide what names and pronouns get used. Is that. That's what I'm trying to. Is that how you're reading it?

Shay Scott [00:35:58] Yep.

Amanda Scott [00:35:59] It sounds like they're leaving it pretty open, but they do. Something that's been at least in place for a while is they will list a preferred name on the church's records, but they don't ever change, like, a gender marker or anything like that, unsurprisingly, with all this other stuff. So that's still put into place, but it seems like a clarification.

Shay Scott [00:36:19] So pretty much from the top, they're saying, no, we don't respect it. But from a psychiatrist, like, in terms of.

Amanda Scott [00:36:25] Yeah. Or they are not mandating that it be respected. They're leaving that up to the families.

John Dehlin [00:36:30] Okay.

Shay Scott [00:36:31] Not on the records, though. The records was told that's What I mean is, on the records, they don't respect it, but they'll leave it to the local level. So if you're in a more progressive area and they don't want to lose all their members, they'll let that progressive

Amanda Scott [00:36:41] bishop use the person's pronouns.

Shay Scott [00:36:44] Right. Okay.

Mormon Church Accepts Transgender Names, Personal Identities

John Dehlin [00:36:46] All right, so maybe headline number two is Mormon church does not officially recognize transgender names, pronouns and identity, but they allow it to be optional at the local level.

Shay Scott [00:37:00] Well, and. And I just want to add that these are the same people in the congregation saying, oh, don't call it Mormons. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, they get so offended by that. And I'm like, meanwhile, you can't respect someone else's pronouns. Like, it's just such a double standard, so.

John Dehlin [00:37:14] Or it's optional. Right. You can call. It'd be like saying, you can call us Mormon or not, we'd rather you not. But, you know, but, but. But they are very strict about what they're called, but they're allowing it to be optional with. With their transgender members. Right.

Shay Scott [00:37:28] Which is why I'm offended when people call me ex Mormon. I'm like, I'm ex Mormon at the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saint.

John Dehlin [00:37:38] Okay, all right, let's keep going. Gender specific meetings and activities. Individuals attend gender specific meetings and activities that align with our biological sex at birth. Any exception, which should be rare, must adhere to the general guidelines listed above and be approved by the area presidency. So. So I guess, are they saying, Amanda, that if you were to attend church, you would need. If. If there's a meeting where all the men are getting together, kind of a priesthood meeting. I think it's called Elders Quorum these days. You would need to attend Elders Corp. Is that right?

Amanda Scott [00:38:18] Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, that's basically just clarifying that because we know there's a lot of words where the examples we hear are trans women, probably because of our situation, but we know there's a lot of words where the Relief Society is like, come.

Shay Scott [00:38:34] We don't.

Amanda Scott [00:38:35] We would love to have you in our ward. We'd love to have you with us. And they're saying, no, that's not allowed, basically, is what I read into that.

Shay Scott [00:38:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] So I, I think I just said Amanda instead of Shay. So, Shea, you would go to Elders Quorum. Can you just tell us what it would be like for you? If you're comfortable, what would it be like for you if you attended a Mormon ward to. To have to attend an all men priesthood meeting?

Shay Scott [00:39:02] Now gosh honestly, it'd be kind of fun now, I mean, to the point where I really wouldn't care. But no, I think for most people and for a child that's grow up in the church, that would be awful. That would be, I mean, it's things like that that really, it's just, it's so barbaric and, and so disrespectful of denying people of, of a core part of who they are. And that's kind of, I guess that's what the church is about, is telling you who they, they know you better than you know yourself. And that's. If that works for you and you fit within that box, it's wonderful. But if you don't, then it's, it's, it's, it's hell. You know, I hear people say, you know, this will all get worked out in the next life. And I go, well, what does that mean? Because if that means that I'm, you know, there's the celestial kingdom and God says I have to be male, I'd say, well then I'm in hell already. Like, it's not, I don't want to be there. So it's just, it's not, I don't know, such a. Going back to your comment, yeah, elders corn would be awkward, but yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] And maybe more seriously, if a kid, let's just say a kid who has chosen to transition, let's just say in the teen years, a trans female or trans male having to go, a trans male having to go to young women's, or a trans female having to go to young men's. That's a, that's kind of unimaginable at that age, right? Yeah.

Shay Scott [00:40:29] And I think they know that, which I, I really don't think they, it's like they're creating a scenario to put this out there, but I don't think they believe. They almost want to say we don't want trans people here without saying it. So they, so they know that that's not going to happen. So this is their nice way of saying, well, we need to love these people. Because they, what they really know is that these people aren't going to be there. Like they're just not going to show up anymore. It's, they don't, they want to reinforce that, that you're not welcome, practically speaking.

Amanda Scott [00:40:58] Why, like what, what is the reason except for to say you don't know who you are? We do. That's the number one problem. But something we're going to see with all These new things is what I think is the church giving into the perceived threat of transness. It's not documented with evidence, but it is a strong perceived threat. So are they fearful that having someone gender diverse with their young people, that. That it's a contagion? Because that's another idea that's out there. Is it just eliminating that possibility for influence amongst one's peers? Or, like, what is the threat of somebody or making other people uncomfortable? Right. That's probably the other thing. But then if you are a church of love, then why aren't you educating people on how to. I'll use their word, minister to those who are different from you. If it truly is love. That's not addressing that. It's addressing one's sense of comfort in the way the world is and how it's always been. Right.

Shay Scott [00:42:07] They say all are welcome, but that doesn't mean anything.

John Dehlin [00:42:12] Yeah, because, I mean, it's not. It's not welcoming to insult and demean and degrade somebody. Right. That's not Christlike love. That's not love. That's not welcoming. Shane, Amanda, I don't expect that you are, but have y' all been following at all my coverage of this book, Second Class Saints, Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality? Because I've got a story that'll blow your mind if you haven't been. No. Okay.

The Secret Way the Church Discovered to Make Black Mormons Feel Un

Amanda Scott [00:42:39] Well, that sounds fascinating.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] No. So. So it turns out that prior to 1970, BYU, you know, they had no black athletes. They had, like, two black students in a. In a population of eight or 9,000, and they had no black faculty athletes and only a couple students. And. But. But they couldn't put on their admission criteria, you know, black, black prospective students need not apply. So do y' all want to guess what they did to make sure black people didn't feel welcome? Do you want to join a guest?

Amanda Scott [00:43:13] Did they segregate the bathrooms? I mean, I'm. My mind's going.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] No, they. They. They developed a form letter that they would send any black applicant. And this is in the 60s. And the form letter said, hey, we know you've applied here. We just want to let you know that you probably won't be very comfortable if you come here. And they would send that form letter to every black applicant.

Amanda Scott [00:43:42] That's horrible.

Shay Scott [00:43:42] It doesn't shock me. It's. To my. It reminds me of my dad who served his mission in South America and in Brazil. And they told him, you know, if you come across black members, like, I mean, don't go looking for them or black investigators. Sorry. Don't. Don't bother teaching them unless they ask. It's like, we don't really want them, but we gotta be loving. So if they want to, it's just.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] It's just.

Shay Scott [00:44:01] Anyway. 100.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] Yeah. Yeah. So the church has a history of finding ways to let people know they're not wanted without, like, issuing a press release to the world saying, these people aren't wanted. They find kind of sneaky, underhanded ways to make sure people know they're not wanted. This is. This is playbook, textbook stuff. Honestly. Yeah. Okay. All right, let's go back. Let's go back to. To the policy change. Let me just pull it up really quick and we'll go to the next portion. Okay. Overnight activities. Okay, here's where it starts to get even worse, if you can believe that's possible. For overnight activities that are for a specific gender. So we're talking, I don't know, girls camp or young men Scouting activities. Individuals attend only the camps that align with their biological sex at birth. Examples of such activities include young women's camps and Aaronic Priesthood quorums camps. They don't say Boy Scout camps anymore because there were so many Mormon church leaders that were sexually abusing Boy Scouts that the church disaffiliated with the Boy Scouts. But we'll get to that in a minute. For overnight activities that are not for a specific gender. Oh, sorry. So let me just be clear. So what they're saying is, is if you're a trans girl, you would attend young men's overnight activities and vice versa. If you're a trans boy, you would attend overnight, you know, girls activities. Except there's a disclaimer. So for overnight activities that are not for specific gender, individuals who pursue surgical, medical, or social transition away from their biological sex at birth leave the activity at night. Youth are released to the care of a parent or legal guardian who is responsible for arranging accommodations. Examples of activities that are not for specific gender include young single adult conferences for the strength of youth conferences and youth conferences. Can all explain to us what they're saying here is, is the rule and who it applies to and how it's enforced.

Mormon Church policy on trans youth:

Amanda Scott [00:46:34] So people who want to give the church the benefit of the doubt will say, well, this. But this protects trans youth. But think about that for a second. Is it protecting trans youth if a trans feminine person is going to. I guess it wouldn't be scout camp, but some sort of young men's camp. Is it protecting them to say, you know, someone who may be out. Right. They have no problem with that. Right. Or they have no problem with a trans man going to girls camp. Right. I don't see any protection in that personally. So it's with the co ed situations and I think this just comes back to the perceived threat. Right. And the most damaging message these policies send is that trans people are deviant, that they're trans because they're hiding some other perversion. That's not a new stereotype, unfortunately. Particularly since the birth of cinema, we've just seen it all over, right. Trans serial killers and stuff like that. So a lot of people believe that, that it's deviant. So something like this at night, like, can you imagine the, the, like practical application of that?

Shay Scott [00:47:54] Yeah, that's. It's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] Any. Anything else you wanted to add to that, Shay?

Shay Scott [00:48:01] I. I don't know what else to that. It just is what it is. It's just. It's so obvious. Once again, it puts the. The emphasis on the wrong issue and from the outside all it does is flame the fire of like mana says that there's something wrong with this individual that they can't. It makes you think of someone who is a sexual predator or something in that camp as to why they can't see overnight or. It's the most demeaning. It's disgusting. I don't know what else to say about it.

John Dehlin [00:48:27] Yeah, so. So like a tr.

Shay Scott [00:48:28] This.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] So in this scenario, a trans girl is attending a boy activity, but then when all the boys are ready to have fun and, and get in their sleepy bags and go to bed, the. The trans girl has to go home. Is that the scenario we're talking about here?

Amanda Scott [00:48:46] No, the trans girl only has to go home if it's co ed. So they're saying if you're attending something that's aligned with your sex at birth, that's fine. So that's where. That's where it falls apart for me. Do they think that that trans girl is going to be protected at the boys camp out? You know what I mean? Like, I don't. I don't think that that argument holds up for this for many reasons, but that being one of them.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] All right, well, I'm sorry, I don't totally understand these rules, but they're kind of ridiculous. So.

Amanda Scott [00:49:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:21] All right. So, yeah, that's just. It's, it's. It's horrendous. It's kind of. I mean, a shit show. I hate to swear, but that's just what this sounds like. All right, so Callings and assignments. Should we do that? Next? Individuals who pursue surgical, medical or social transition away from the biological test at birth are not called or assigned to fulfill gender specific roles, serve as teachers, or work with children or youth. So there's another headline. If you're transgender and Mormon, you can't work, you can't teach anyone, you can't fill any role that's tied to gender, whatever that means. And you can't work with children or youth, which immediately suggests that they're a likely sexual predator. Am I wrong?

Mormon Church Proposal to Ban Transgender People From Teaching Children

Shay Scott [00:50:10] Yeah. It falls into the, the belief that the trans people, they're being trans is contagious, that somehow, like Mike, I'd love, I would love a direct response from the church as to what does that mean and why, why can't a trans person be with children? Because if they answer that in a truthful way, it's just that they worry that it's contagious. And, and if they're really worried about like kids being hurt or whatever it is, which of course that's disgusting, they would do background checks like use, you know, evidence based research to look at an individual and say whether, you know, they are safe to be with children, which we know in the church. It seems that they're not worried about that. They're not worried about white male priesthood holders that, that are with children. It's just crazy.

Amanda Scott [00:50:58] When we went to look it up. You probably know a lot more about this, John, but they do mandate background checks in the uk but we, we couldn't find in the US or in

Shay Scott [00:51:08] other countries, I'm guessing because they had to.

Amanda Scott [00:51:11] Yeah, because of legal obligation. There is what we were reading about it. Yeah, but, yeah, it's, but also. So if you are teaching young people, from what I understand, you team teach now like adults aren't really alone with children or at least that's the policy. Do you, is that how you understand it too, John?

John Dehlin [00:51:33] Yeah, yeah, it's too, it's too deep. And can we just be clear why it's too deep and what the problem really is? The problem is generally straight heterosexual cisgender men. They are by, you know, by far per capita the, the most likely to sexually abuse. It's not women and it's not transgender men or transgender women. It's not non binary people. It's straight white cisgender men who are going to be abusing children 95% of the time. And that's why the Boy Scouts of America almost went bankrupt. That's why the Mormon Church not only offered hundreds of millions of dollars in a Boy Scout abuse settlement because they had so many scoutmasters who were abusing young boys. Right. But, but that's, that's, that's, that's the problem. And so if you're gonna punish or limit or exclude anyone, it's going to be cisgender straight men from being with children. Right. So the church does implement a 2D policy where all Sunday school or youth teachers teach too deep. Right. Because of straight CIS men. And there's no data that suggest or any reason to believe that transgender men or women are going to be more likely to abuse. None. And so it's just outrageous, ridiculous, double standard hypocrisy and bigotry and cruelty and meanness because, because we all know who should be targeted and limited if there's going to be targets and limits.

Shay Scott [00:53:26] Yeah. And I think what really infuriates me about this, John, is that they, I know they know this. Like, this is a church that researches everything, is looking at where the church is growing, where it can grow more. And they know this. And it's like they're probably looking at this going, if we go this route and favor, you know, be more loving, inclusive like Jesus would be, then we're going to lose this giant group of people. They know that abuse is happening from white heterosexual males. I shouldn't just say white, but just men in general. Right. It's just like, it's just, it's, it's a fact of reality. You don't need to go very far to know this.

Amanda Scott [00:54:03] Yeah. And something that occurs to me is just I, that demographic that is susceptible to abuse, children, and it's not fair to tie it to a demographic. Right. But statistically, that's what we know. I think everybody is suffering from gender constraints. And I bet you those individuals, if you dig down deep, not that this is excuses abuse at all, they are suffering, ironically, these, the trans community is the scapegoat of this. And something we see all the time is how trans people become a mirror or a punching bag for a lot of pain and suffering that has come from gender. And so trans people are not dangerous to children. They are dangerous to the church. Because when someone sees someone who is happy and they're not supposed to be happy, who is sure about who they are, but they are not supposed to be, when there's that kind of radical acceptance, I, I've seen firsthand in my life how that is transformative. It makes you think about the world differently. And I don't think that does the church any Favors, because once people start to really look at themselves in that way, be open to loving themselves or seeing things differently than they did before, that is a threat to the church. And so it's. They're doing the same misdirection that a lot of the population's doing, and they're pinning a lot of pain on community that's already so marginalized. And it's heartbreaking.

John Dehlin [00:55:37] Yeah, it's. It's horrible. It's terrible, and it's outrageous. Given the church's history of protecting and defending child abusers. It's just. It's ridiculous and so hurtful. Okay, so the next. The next policy is regarding. And again, can we get more degrading restrooms in church facilities? Restrooms should provide a private and safe environment. Care must be taken to respect the privacy and dignity of all individuals. Really? Okay, yeah. Individuals who pursue surgical, medical, or social transition away from their biological sex at birth should use a single occupancy restroom when available. Which is what? No churches. No Mormon churches anywhere. Mormon churches don't have single occupancy restrooms, do they? I haven't seen them.

Mormon Church Bathroom Policy

Amanda Scott [00:56:32] I've had one since I was a child in the. All my years when I was in the church that had single like a handicap, you know?

John Dehlin [00:56:41] Okay, so that's kind of ridiculous. And then it goes on. If a single occupancy restroom is not available, which is pretty much all Mormon churches, then a local leader council, A local leader counsels with the individual and the parents or guardians of a youth to find a solution. I'm Bishop. Hey, young trans girl, let's come up with a solution about your bathroom attendance. Hey, trans boy, can we talk about your bathroom? I'm just trying to imagine how this is happening. Like. Okay, sorry, I'll just. I'll finish and then I'll let you react. Using a restroom that aligns with the individual's biological sex at birth. Using. These are the options. So using a restroom that aligns with the individual's biological sex at birth. Okay, so trans girl goes to the boys bathroom. All right. Trans boy goes to the girl's bathroom, presenting as a trans boy or trans girl. That makes no sense. Or using a restroom that corresponds to the individual's feelings of their inner sense or gender with a trusted person ensuring that others are not using the restroom. So let's go in, clear out the restroom. Trans girl wants to use the. The women's restroom. Or trans boy wants to use the. The boys restroom. I'm just.

Shay Scott [00:58:03] Please, I was. I was joking. With someone about how funny it would be to actually like play that out on Tick Tock, what that would look like. Like, it's just so ridiculous.

Amanda Scott [00:58:12] Like it would be funny. But we won't.

Shay Scott [00:58:15] No, no, but it's just like when you imagine that scene scenario, they, they know that's not going to happen. It's going back to what I was saying before. Like, no, that's the way of saying, we love you trans people, but you're welcome to leave now. Like, there's not really a place for you, but we love you and all members should love you at the same. Anyways, it just goes the whole thing. But like the other thing too is I, I laugh. What I laugh about the whole bathroom thing. Sorry, what I laugh about with the whole bathroom thing as a whole is have you ever seen a trans man? Like, that takes testosterone. Like they're trans men in many cases look like biological men. Like in a lot of cases, testosterone is one, one hell of a drug. Okay. And then you can say, hell yeah. But it's like you wouldn't want a trans man in a woman's bathroom. Like, if that's really what that's about. But of course there's different things here, but.

Amanda Scott [00:59:06] Well, and I, I would love to hear a trans man's perspective or many trans men's men's perspectives on this because ours is again, limited to our situation. But I don't think they're making these bathroom laws with trans men in mind. I think there's a special trans misogyny which is such a. Like when you dissect. So Julia Serrano is a really great theorist who wrote about this and she's trans, but dissecting why it is that trans women are so like, there's so much hysteria around it, but when you look at the roots, it's actually a really misogynistic idea because the, the underpinning of that is why would a biological male. I'm using air quotes. Why would they transition to a woman who would do that, who would want to be feminine, that is. And, and now we talk about women's spaces and protecting them. And to be clear, I think the actuality of that, of course is important. But that is not what this is, John. This is hysteria. Because I would love to poll women and see if they've ever seen genitalia in the bathroom ever. Like I not once in my life have. And so again, the perceived threat, the hysteria around this, and with trans women it is, you must be a freak if you are born with Male privilege and you want to be female. Like, what is that? So it's, it is very misogynistic. And it's interesting how Christian nationalism here in the US has sort of flipped that, that, you know, they talk about trans women being the disrespectful ones, right? And violating women's spaces and all this stuff. But the transphobia that is the root of all of that is rooted in a man should want to be a man. And if they don't, they're freak, right? Or a sexual predator or a sexual predator. Or they want access, right? They want access to the women and their, their predators.

Mormon Women Talk About Trans Men Using The Bathroom

John Dehlin [01:01:12] So, yeah, yeah, it's terrible. And I, you know, you know, you, you get out of the Mormon mindset and you realize that these are just bodies and these are just people. You go to the Louvre and you see naked statues or whatever, and you see enough nakedness, Dr. Whatever, and you just go, oh, these are just bodies. These are just people. For the first time in my life, I was at the University of Utah recently at Sunstone. And they have bathrooms that are multi gender. And just whoever was going into the bathroom and whoever was coming out, it was not a thing. You just do your business and you go to the bathroom. That's it. It's very simple. It's like, do not, you know, go to the bathroom. That's. It's that simple. But still, I'm trying to imagine, Shay, how Mormon men are gonna feel if you, if you go to the bathroom with them. They're gonna feel super uncomfortable. And like you said, so, you know, it's with testosterone, like you said, Shay, like trans men are gonna pass as men. And I'm just wondering how Mormon women are going to react when these trans men are just showing up in their bathrooms.

Shay Scott [01:02:20] It's.

John Dehlin [01:02:20] This is ridiculous. It's like the Keystone Cops. I know this is like a, a boomer reference, but it's, it's like Monty Python made up these policies in terms of how they're actually going to play out in the lives of church members, you know? Or am I wrong?

Shay Scott [01:02:38] No, it's spot on. It really is just so. It's comical. Like I said, I'd love to see that played out. Like they should make a church film what that looks like and how the good bishop. And I'll just add to that real quickly as I've seen a few members, you know, I guess bless their hearts because they're trying to be like the ally, but they're like, I will stand by the bathroom for you and I'm going, that's not what you should be doing. You should be going to your church leader and saying, this is ridiculous. I'm not going to make this, this poor trans K kid or youth or whoever feel humiliated just because they need to use the restroom. And I'll be honest with you, John. Like, trans people have the greatest bladders in the world. We don't want to go to the bathroom. Like, going to the bathroom is not something that we look forward to just because, I mean, at least living here, like, it's not a fun place.

Amanda Scott [01:03:26] So, no, it's scary. You feel scared.

Shay Scott [01:03:28] So it's just, it's, again, it just adds to the dehumanization of a group of people that they don't, frankly, want to. To be shepherds and look over. They don't care. So they speak. They draw close to God with their lips, but their hearts are far from him.

Amanda Scott [01:03:44] And back to your example, John, talking about black students at byu, again, perceived threat. If you look at when integration started happening, this was not something that white people, most white people were good about, right? There were many perceived threats of having the black community in proximity to them. And we saw the church obviously operated under those premises as well as larger society. And so as a society, are we. Are we, like, kowtowing to people's perceived threat? Like, and I realize, I don't mean to, like, easily equate those two, but clearly. And biology, by the way, was used in sort of ideas that are tied to eugenics and talking about the black race as an inferior race. There was complex argument as to why that was the case, and it was natural that white men were better. Right. And so I see so many parallels in that. And today, if you had said to somebody, you know, if you've used race as a parallel to this, and, you know, white people were uncomfortable using the bathroom of people of color, so we better make sure we make the white people comfortable. People would be like, that's disgusting. Like, you, you can't. You cannot, you know, try to cater to that kind of bigotry and racism. And so there's still a lack of information because some people actually really do believe there's a threat, specifically with trans women. But it's the same concept. You know, they have lost their sense of humanity with trans people.

John Dehlin [01:05:28] Yeah, absolutely. So well said. If it's okay, I'm just going to quickly just reiterate what the church a little more about the church's policy. So I'm up on churchofjesuschrist.org and there's an article called what the Church's position. What's the church's position on transitioning? And I'll just read a couple paragraphs. So this is the church's official position. That's kind of the umbrella to these new policy changes. But it says those who feel their inner sense of gender does not align with their biological sex at birth often face complex challenges. Yeah. Because of the church, they and their family and friends should be treated with sensitivity, kindness, compassion, and Christlike love. Okay, I'm gonna stop there. Shay, are these policies rooted in sensitivity, kindness, compassion, and Christlike love? I just want your assessment of that short answer.

The Church's Transgender Policy

Shay Scott [01:06:25] No, I think just echoes everything you've already said. No, it doesn't.

John Dehlin [01:06:31] So they're hateful, they're insensitive, they're unkind, they have no compassion, and this is not love. And then again, just to be clear, it goes on and says worthy individuals who do not pursue surgical, medical, or social transition away from their biological sex at birth may enjoy all the privileges of church membership. In other words, turn it off, pack it down, shut it up, keep it quiet, and literally go against what the American Medical association recommends. Because the medical community has resolved this issue. There's not ambiguity as to what is medically, psychologically recommended. And so the Church is literally instituting a policy that defies modern medical consensus. Is that right?

Shay Scott [01:07:24] Yes. For a group that so often says it's basic biology, we'll also ignore what all of the major medical associations are saying about gender affirming care. This isn't a political theory. This isn't Democrat versus Republican. These are facts that we have information on. And that's. What's so sad is I feel like they're giving into this idea that's being really pushed right now, unfortunately, that. That, you know, that it's just not a valid experience. Right. And that all of a sudden, trans people started existing. It's just ridiculous. I. I knew I was trans before. I knew what the trans. The word trans was long before, long before. And it's like nothing inferior.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] Age four. Was it Age four.

Shay Scott [01:08:09] I knew it. It's one of my earliest memories in life. And trying to use language to describe that until I finally could, and just being like, going into, you know, sorry, but it's okay when they. When they talk about. It's funny how it's. It's interesting for me because I don't obviously believe in the theology anymore, but it just. It hurts me because they're speaking to my family who still believes they're speaking to friends, you know, they're looking for reasons to validate their, their bigotry, you know, and to misunderstand you. And so on this, this issue with hormones, I'm like, like, where, where is Jesus in this? Are you, are you crazy? The information's there. Read the information. And like, there are trans people that would kill themselves in, in, you know, had. Might be trans people who kill themselves as a result of this because they cannot get the care they need. And they have so much shame that they go on hormone replacement therapy just by being out. They are now denied and seen as a second class citizen with sex offenders. Like, I just can't imagine. One thing I want to say too is just like when I went on hormone replacement therapy in 2019, actually, it was later, but. Oh, sorry. But when I went on it, I obviously it was immediately something I knew I needed to be on. It was, it was. I felt alive for the first time since I was like, before going through puberty. I just, I instantly knew it was right for me. But talking to my medical provider, she told me, I said, do you see trans people very often? She goes, are you kidding? They're all over. He's like, there's a lot of people that are on hormone replacement therapy that are trans that don't socially transition. And so what that tells you is that there's a lot of people using this treatment to stay alive. And what they're saying by the church's guidelines is if you want all the blessings in this church, you have to go off from that. Denying people of their insulin, that is disgusting. Like that is that to me just. It puts on a whole new level of. I just can't believe that they don't know this, John. Because they literally had it in their previous policy that this is something that's used to prevent gender dysphoria and suicidal thoughts. That's literally what it used to say. And they took that out like that. I don't know how they can explain that. It's just.

John Dehlin [01:10:43] Oh, yeah, yeah, it's. It's horrible. Thank you for. I know. Thank you for being willing to be vulnerable and to share your emotions. Because that's really how people often get influenced is in the heart, not the brain. You know, it's the heart. And just to finish driving this point home, and you just made this point so beautifully, Shay. But it says church leaders council against pursuing surgical, medical or social transition away from one's biological sex at birth. And that's literally like saying the church discourages Chemotherapy. When you have cancer, the church discourages antibiotics. When you have, I don't know, strep throat, the church discourages insulin. If you're a diabetic, how is it different?

Shay Scott [01:11:37] Yeah, so they're not. We're not even talking about a social transition. You know, this is a social transition. We're talking about people using hormones that all the major medical association says helps. It's a proven fact that it helps alleviate gender dysphoria. So if I was presenting Mel, I was going to church elders quorum, whatever the moment I told my bishop, I suffer with gender dysphoria or I'm trans, but I choose to live this life, I'll wear the tile, I'll be the priesthood holder. I'm now put on a list with people that are in the same category as sexual predators. Like, think about that. Just, just by the fact that I experience what I do. It's like being left handed. It's like, it's so ridiculous.

Mormon Women on Feelings About Being Trans

Amanda Scott [01:12:20] Yeah, well, in the church, I've noticed they always use the word feeling the bathroom that aligns with their feelings. And you could perhaps, if you're going to be devil's advocate. Oh, what's that? Seems like a reasonable word. But as a word, person feeling suggest something that comes and goes. Feelings suggest a, a state, you know, that's. It's probably not. I knew this since I was 4. This has never changed. Right. They're more like, well, are you sure? Because you could change your mind.

Shay Scott [01:12:48] So for a church that's so based on feeling, they deny people of their feelings. Like, that's just, it's just such a funny concept. Right? We're all about feelings in the church. We know the church is true. Not based on facts or anything.

Amanda Scott [01:12:59] But they never say, I feel like the church is true. They know it's true. But you feel like you're trans, but you're not. But that's crazy, John. This is not just a Mormon thing. Like we will get tons of comments that are like, there's no such thing. People will say, there's no such thing as being trans. And I'm like, what are you, what are you talking about? But some people simply want to pretend it doesn't exist and they think that's the correct. Like we're not going to give any attention to these weirdos over here. It's not, it's not even real. It's a delusion. There's no such thing as being trans. And so I kind of feel like that plays into this whole feelings and Even the whole hormone replacement therapy, it's not real. So we're not going to acknowledge it.

Shay Scott [01:13:46] I want to add to it as well that they changed the language and I had to look it up, but they changed the language around. You're no longer a transgender individual. You're. You're a person who identifies with transgender feelings or something like that. Same thing they did with like, yeah, you're not gay, you're just. You experience same sex attraction. They changed, they just changed this in the handbook along with it. So it's like another way of invalidating the experience of being trans.

Amanda Scott [01:14:12] And, and this whole pushback is based on semantics, to be clear. Like, I don't even want to get into it, but this whole what is a woman thing, the attachment people have to certain words and what, how we define things, etc. Like, it's. Anyway, it's a double standard. I think that that happens a lot. And it's so much of this, if we want to call it a culture war or anti trans backlash so often is semantic. What are we calling something? What is it allowed to be called? What are you allowed to call yourself? So.

John Dehlin [01:14:45] Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, you know, I, I do want to touch just very briefly on some of the reactions amongst people that I respect or admire. I'll just say. And I'll just share the screen of just. I grabbed a couple quotes from either Instagram or Reddit. One of the high, One of the, One of the headlines is this transgender policy is going to backfire on the church with malicious compliance of the rules. So it says, let's say I'm a trans female and express my female identity by wearing dresses, makeup, cute girl, hair, do etc in the policy, since my born biological sex is male, I cannot attend functions for women and girls, but I can for men and boys. How well do you think it is going to fly when a trans female expresses their femininity while attending all these activities and functions for males? Also, if I am trans female, can I still participate in priesthood ordinances and blessings while wearing a dress and makeup? And the truth is most are going to be shocked and horrified and just not want to attend at all. But we could imagine sort of like courageous, spicy trans men or women that are going to take the church at their word and as a form of activism, comply with the rules and perform their priesthood or relief society duties. Right. Is that possible?

The Transgender Policy In The Church

Amanda Scott [01:16:12] I would love to. They would have my full admiration.

Shay Scott [01:16:16] Endorsement.

Amanda Scott [01:16:16] Yeah.

Shay Scott [01:16:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:18] A couple other reactions we've got, you know, at the bottom, an Instagram Comment I just resigned my membership yesterday. I've been asleep back in. I may have been asleep back in 2015, but I'm awake now. I am 100 sure that the church is receiving a lot of resignations. There's another one here officially stepping away. It says a family member sent the anti trans policy in a group text in support of the policy as a step in the right direction. Now, I read it when I saw it LinkedIn here, and knew that this was probably going to be my line in the sand, but I wasn't prepared for the emotions that have been flooding. I've been pima, which means physically and mentally out for a while, married to a pretty TBM spouse, and I spent the better part of the wee hours this morning in turmoil. I am absolutely sick to my stomach because I know that I need to truly step away. I do not think I can even passively support the church anymore. I do not fear for my safety, but I'm afraid for my marriage and how this might affect our relationship. I imagine that both they and their judgmental TBM family will double down hard. You know, I, I won't continue. But I'm just going to say, as horrific as this is for trans individuals and their loved ones, this is going to have a horrific ripple effect now, in addition to general members, CIS members, because there's all sorts of trans allies that are now, their hands are now going to be forced and they're going to have to experience mixed faith marriages and divorce and familial wars and feuds and alienations just by being an ally or a support of, of transgender individuals. Really, just quickly, I'll, I'll say one more. Another, another Reddit participant says now is a great time to resign your membership. And just like there were mass resignations in 2015, between 2015 and 2019, there will be mass resignations now as well, which maybe the church thinks it's separating the weed from the tares. And maybe the church did this on purpose and maybe the church wants all trans members to leave the church and all family members and allies of trans members to just leave the church. What are y' all seeing and what do y' all think about this?

Shay Scott [01:18:52] Yeah, so I mean, I guess first of all, we, we never got around to resigning. So this, this is, I guess we'll make it public. We're, we're going to resign now, obviously, so, but I think they're going to lose a lot, a lot of people for sure. So it's, I, I, I guess the thing I always come back to is like, did they know this would happen? And I have to think they did. And so maybe they view it as separating the wheat from the terror. I don't know. It's just. You think they would learn a lesson from when this happened with the 2015 policy. So I don't know.

Amanda Scott [01:19:25] Yeah. And I. Once you go through a faith transition. Once you go through a faith transition, you really don't take glee in other people going through it. I mean, you want people to be free, but it is. It is a hard road in. In a challenge. And I. I think one other thing, I would add, just another peripheral thing, is by the church doubling down on gender, and we've seen this internationally, that the anti trans movement doesn't just hurt trans people. There are people that just don't. We, if we have a stereotypical idea of what a woman or man looks like, don't fit into that. They don't identify as trans. They identify as cisgender. And the most public one would have been that Algerian boxer in the Olympics. But we've heard of many people who, you know, I've talked to lots of women just in a women's bathroom, and someone will start yelling, there's a man in the bathroom. And they're like, what? Like, no, I'm just. This is just me. And so it affects a lot. It affects a lot of people, this sort of toxic gender binary, which maybe isn't always toxic, but a lot of times it is. And it. I think it hurts everyone to a degree.

John Dehlin [01:20:40] Yeah, for sure. I mean, you hurt one of us, you hurt all of us. We're all connected. We're all humanity. And this is just. This. This can do nothing but backfire for the welfare of the church. In the long run, this is just going to harm trans people, allies of trans people, family members and friends of trans people, and just church members in general. This. This is bad on every possible level. There's no good that comes from the Mormon Church's August 2024 transgender policy. That's what I think.

Amanda Scott [01:21:20] Yeah. Well, and it's interesting, too, because I think one thing that continues to impress me, like, when we were in the church, we talk about how the church is perfect, but the members aren't. But then being in my position, I see it like the flip way, because, you know, we live in a very LDS community, and people, I would say, more often than not, are very kind or at least respectful. But on the flip side of that, we. We both have family members that don't want to be in the same place we are anymore. Like, they literally will not come to a family gathering if we're not there. And so it goes both ways, right? Where I think the kind members are like, oh, I guess my hands are kind of tied. And maybe the church does know best. You know, maybe this. Maybe trans people are dangerous because they're telling us to do this. And then the people that are already bigoted are like, well, I knew I was right about that. Yeah, Definitely don't want anything to do with those types of people. So it's sad.

The Utah Transgender Exclusion Policy

John Dehlin [01:22:22] So originally, when this came out, I was so sickened and disgusted that I wasn't. I wasn't planning on covering it. I know that sounds terrible, but I just felt stick and disgusting. And I just. I just. I just. I'm just like, I just can't do this. I don't want to do it. And. And Julia was like, john, I think we should cover this. And then, you know, it breaks out as a global news story. But the one silver lining I thought of, which was what people said in the 2015 exclusionary policy, is it's such a heinous and awful policy that there's going to be a lot of trans people and allies who would have stayed in the church or would have considered being in the church or participating in the church. And this just. This just kills that and just makes it so people, trans people and allies are just never going to want any association with the church, which is going to prevent them from having to swim in a harmful, toxic, unhealthy environment. Is it even possible to call that a silver lining to this dark and dreadful policy?

Amanda Scott [01:23:35] I mean, yes, and I think. I hope that some people out there will also notice the timing of this, because if you have your finger on the pulse of United States politics, specifically, there is one party who talks about trans people all the time. And sometimes I'm like, this is 1% of the population. But this is a major talking point, and it is no accident. It just couldn't possibly be an accident that this hard line is coming. I'm not saying it's necessarily a political endorsement, but it falls exactly into line. Besides the, you know, treat people with respect and kindness verbiage, the. The rhetoric is very different.

Shay Scott [01:24:16] It's. It's buying to the notion that the family is under attack. Right?

Amanda Scott [01:24:20] Yeah.

Shay Scott [01:24:21] And that's what I always believed as a. As a member, was that there were people were coming after me. And then when you step out from the other side, you realize that they're actually standing on the necks of the marginalized saying, don't come after my family, don't come after my rights. It's just, it's. It's just so backwards when all, when all trans people want to do is just to exist and they don't want to create a space for, for them, so they create documents like this and just hope to weed out people in the process. And, you know, even they were down the road were to change these policies, which I hope they do, if, if it's going to alleviate suffering. Because the fact of the matter is trans kids are being born into Mormon families. There is trans kids, I guarantee you, probably in my ward, that aren't open because they're so scared. And you think they're going to come out now, like, no way. It's, it's just. And that's what devastates me is the pain that I had to go through to get to this point. Like, the thing that I have to deal with is, is this life that I lived that was never me. And I'm just imagining, like, what they're doing right now. They're just creating more pain and suffering, but it doesn't seem like they're too worried about that.

John Dehlin [01:25:29] So, yeah, I was so discouraged when I saw that transgender people were going to be used as wedge issues to polarize political engagement in a culture war. I, I remember when it's trans issue started emerging as toxic talking points in divisive political rhetoric. And it, it depressed me and it still does. And, and yeah, it seemed like, you know, it seems like there might be very strong political connections between how Utah seems to be going politically and the emergence of this retraction.

Shay Scott [01:26:17] I.

John Dehlin [01:26:18] The. The final thing I'll just, I'll just note is that the. As I understand it, as I remember, Thomas S. Monson was the prophet when the November 2015 exclusion policy came out. And it was pretty well known that Monson had dementia and really wasn't functioning. And it's pretty well understood that sort of. Nelson and Oaks rammed that exclusionary policy through with Nelson affirming it as doctrine a month or two later, without consensus of the quorum of the 12. That's how the exclusion policy was. Was released. That was then undone four years later. I wonder if it's a coincidence that now we know Russell Nelson is nearing a hundred, is in feeble health. And I just can't help but wonder if Oaks is pulling in Nelson and if it's actually Elder Oaks, who's the known quintessential homophobe and transphobe in the Quorum of the twelve and in the First Presidency. Whether Oaks is now ramming this trans policy through without quorum of the 15 consensus, knowing that Nelson is probably on his deathbed as anticipation of an Oaks presidency once Nelson dies, I can't help but. But speculate as to whether that's what's going on here. Have y' all thought about that?

Amanda Scott [01:27:53] Yeah, I mean, I think that's all really interesting to speculate about. And the thing that comes back to me is the people making these decisions. It does not seem like they have spent any time with trans people. It doesn't seem like they are acquainted with this. It seems like a distant, like they're looking in from a distance at this and just trying to appease the masses is what it feels like. And I don't know, maybe there are. I have to imagine it's a small percentage of Latter Day Saint members that are like, this is a big concern to them and they just want to, you know, quell that and be like, really clear. I don't know.

Shay Scott [01:28:33] It's certainly given them fodder, if it's the right word. But just to, to push this further, like, if you look at some of the more right wing commentators in the church, like, they're all celebrating this and the comments are just like, they're just so sad and it's just that they all think that they're beating the drum for Jesus and it's, I don't know, just, just such a. It's sad.

John Dehlin [01:29:00] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I guess we all hope that this, like the 2000, November 15th policy gets reversed, but it's a, it's a sad, sad day for trans gender Mormons and trans allies. It's a sad day for the Mormon Church and it's a sad day for Utah and all the states and all the countries that are impacted by this. But I just, maybe as an offer of hope, like Prop 8 preceded, you know, Obergefeld. Right. Like, it's usually a sweeping, dark, oppressive act of bigotry that then leads to progress. And so I, I'm just gonna hope that this is, that the church is going to feel this, they're going to be punished by this, they're going to regret this, they're going to change this. And even though it's dark, sad, harmful times now, that we'll have the backlash later, that will actually lead to trans progress both in, in the church and, and broader. That's my hope.

Shay Scott [01:30:17] Yeah. If history has taught us anything in Mormonism, that's That's probably likely going to happen. So. Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:30:25] And I. I would just say I hope that this can start some good conversations because there's probably a lot of people listening that are like, I don't know how I feel about this. One of many things we just talked about. And that's okay, right? If this experience has taught me anything, it's that when you can really understand human experience, when you open your heart and take time just to learn and listen, and hopefully that will happen with both people in the church and outside of the church. We're just. We're all humans here doing the best we can, including. Including these folks that unfortunately fall under that bigotry. And my compassion goes out to them because I don't think that would be a very enlightened or happy way to live, so.

John Dehlin [01:31:09] Absolutely. All right, well, Shane, Amanda, any final words before we. We can't thank you enough for your courage, for your sense of humor. Your videos are so fun. They're so lovely. They're so thoughtful and entertaining. Y' all are social media wizards and your relationship is so inspiring. Shay, your courage is so inspiring. Amanda, your love, you both of your love for each other is so inspiring. Y' all just have captured the hearts of so many people. So thank you. Thank you for that and for coming on. Any final words?

A message from Dr. Amanda Scott

Amanda Scott [01:31:50] Nope.

Shay Scott [01:31:51] It's honor.

Amanda Scott [01:31:51] Thank you. Yeah, thank you. And I'm just proud of this one. She's done. It's been a. It's a tough road at times, but. Yeah. Thank you for having us on, John.

John Dehlin [01:32:01] All right, well, thank you. Hang in there. Again, tell us the Instagram tick tock YouTube channels to follow one more time.

Shay Scott [01:32:10] So Shay Scott is my Instagram tick tock as well.

Amanda Scott [01:32:14] And then I'm Dr. Amanda Scott. Dr. Amanda Scott. And our YouTube is Amanda in, Shay.

Shay Scott [01:32:20] Yeah.

Mormon Stories: Thank You!

John Dehlin [01:32:21] All right, all right. And we look forward to our long form interview coming up. All right, all right, thank you. Thanks, Scott. Thanks to all the viewers and listeners for your great comments. We had a few super chats. Thanks. Gregory Turnbow. He says thanks for sharing your experience. Thanks for that, Gregory. Lydia sent us a little super chat pants tacular, wrote older trans mask here. Didn't want to tell my TVM family I'm trans and my records are still there, but it looks like I need to find out how to fully leave. Thank you for covering this. It's our pleasure. Also thanks to Kat and thanks to everyone who made such beautiful comments today. Thanks to everyone who supports Mormon stories and the Open Stories Foundation. We couldn't do it without you. So thank you. Thanks to Maven and Julia and Gerardo Brooklyn and all those at the Open Stories foundation that make this possible. Yeah, let's. Let's all do our part to be advocates where we can. Let's, let's shoot, show our support for trans humans and non binary humans and all the humans, and let's just be kind to each other and let's be good to each other. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast.

Shay Scott [01:33:46] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:33:47] Take care, everybody. Bye.