Introduction and Episode Overview

RFM [00:00:00] Foreign.

Bill [00:00:05] Welcome, folks, to tonight's news program. Tonight, we've got a packed program for you covering everything from updates on the Mormon related crime stories that are happening right now to the LDS giving machines. We'll also run through major news highlights of the week and engage in a panel discussion on the LDS Church's significant land ownership. Stay tuned for an insightful and diverse lineup. Welcome to the groundbreaking news program that delves into the heart of Mormonism. Your weekly window into the unique intersections of news, history and culture that resonate with the tapestry of Mormonism. So whether you're tuning in from the heart of Utah or joining us from around the world, your favorite news program starts now, where news meets insight and the stories of our faith unfold.

Bill [00:00:54] All right, so in our first segment, we're going to hear from seasoned journalist Lauren Matthias. With a decade of reporting for major news agencies, major news networks, Lauren brings a wealth of experience to our conversation. Currently the executive producer of the Hidden True Crime podcast, Lauren is no stranger to delving into the depths of impactful stories. Lauren, what is happening in the news around Mormon crime?

Lauren Matthias [00:01:20] Thank you, Bill. I wish I could tell you that there isn't a lot happening in Mormon crime, but there is quite a lot happening. And today there was some breaking news actually when it came to the Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt case, as many that have been following this closely. This is a Mormon therapist, Jody Hildebrandt, as she had partnered with Ruby Frankie, a YouTube mother. Ruby Frankie, a YouTube mother, meaning she had millions of followers, millions of subscribers. And we, we'll get into the backstory in just a minute. But they were both arrested in August on six counts of aggravated child abuse. Well, today, Ruby Frankie, they've both been incarcerated since their arrest.

Ruby Frankie Pleads Guilty to Child Abuse Charges

Lauren Matthias [00:02:04] Ruby Frankie took a plea deal today. She, she, she said that she was guilty. She took a plea deal and now she has been she saying that she is guilty of four counts of second degree aggravated child abuse and also that she must testify against the therapist, her therapist and business partner, Jody Hildebrandt.

Lauren Matthias [00:02:28] Her sentencing is going to be February 20th, so there's still a lot unknown. But I think today what we all learned, you know, we were, I think that a lot of people following this case, we were aware that a plea deal was on the table. We were aware that she was going to ple guilty on and that the exchange would be to testify against Jody Hildebrandt. We thought we might know a little bit more. Again, we're gonna have to wait until February 20th for her sentencing. To find out what's going to happen to her. But what we learned today was really upsetting. We learned a little bit more about what her children went through.

Lauren Matthias [00:03:09] And you know, I'll read a bit of this. This is actually the, the, the plea deal here. This is it. All of the documents, there's 10 pages. But before I read, I just want to give a trigger warning because it's, it's really upsetting. Some people are censoring it on their channels because it's, it's heartbreaking to hear what these children, Ruby's two children went through.

Lauren Matthias [00:03:36] Before we get to that though, you know, Bill, I, I might switch things around for you. You, you and I went through this, this timeline how we're going to do this and run down these slides. But I'm thinking that maybe let's give the three minute background to this story.

Lauren Matthias [00:03:52] I have a video that I filmed in front of Jody Hildebrandt's home in southern Utah back in August, a week after their arrest. Let's play that so that we're all up to date and then I'm going to share what we learned today as far as the abuse that these children suffer. Does that work to switch that around? Maybe it does.

Bill [00:04:16] Give me one second. I'm just.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [00:04:17] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:04:19] Yeah. Well, why. Well, while you do that, I'll just say this too. There was a, everybody was waiting for this. Oh, here it is. We'll, we'll play this and then I'll get back to what I was sharing. I am actually in front of right now.

Bill [00:04:32] That is got a sound issue. Give me two seconds and let's see if we can fix this.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:04:40] I am actually in front of right now the house of Jody Hildebrandt in southern Utah. Ivan's Utah. This is where a 12 year old boy escaped out of a window with duct tape around his wrists and around his ankles, ran to a neighbor's house and asked for food and water because he was malnourished. This is the house where Ruby Frankie's two children were being held. A 10 year old girl and a 12 year old boy. A very brave 12 year old boy. I'm going to flip around so you can see this house and so I can tell you a little bit more about what went on here.

Video Clip 1 [00:05:12] This is a very private area. The houses are far apart. If there was a lot of noise coming from the home, I would not be surprised if people did not hear it. So the 12 year old boy escaped, ran to a neighbor's, simply asking for water and food because of the boy's condition. So he had severe deep lacerations and he looked underweight. They called the neighbors, called police. Thank goodness. I'm going to put these on. I have a bit of a headache, so. And it is very hot here in the desert. And as you can see, this is not a neighborhood with trees. There is no shade.

Video Clip 1 [00:05:48] This is desert landscape, red rock landscape. He escaped. So they called police and he, he was. Then he had long term medical stay. By the way, this happened August 30th, it was a little over a week ago Wednesday because of the depth of his lacerations, not from the duct tape from rope being tied around him. So they mentioned that he has duct tape on his wrists and on his ankles. But then they state in the probable cause that because of deep lacerations from rope being tied up that he had a longer medical stay. Now, when they got to the house, police got to the house.

Video Clip 1 [00:06:26] They found the 10 year old girl, the Frankie's little girl, Ruby's little girl, and she for four hours refused medical care, which tells me there is some brainwashing going on here. It took four hours for medical personnel and for police to convince a 10 year old girl to attend to her. That to me is heartbreaking. She was also malnourished. The reason that Jody Hildebrandt was charged with six counts of aggravated child abuse is because they saw that the children were in her direct care in her house back here, her three million dollar house. Did I mention this house was worth three million dollars? I can't even remember if I did.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:06] Three million dollar home, it's listed. So they were in this house in her care. But something else that's also written in the probable cause that everybody's talked about, including Adam Steed. Our interview with Adam Steed and then on Mormon Stories) I everyone listening to Mormon Stories) listening to Jody Hilder.

RFM [00:07:30] Bill, I've lost the audio.

Bill [00:07:34] Thank you. I tried to meet myself without it going out.

Lauren Matthias [00:07:42] Niece Jesse, she states the same thing that Jody Hildebrandt said that she stated. Well, don't let those kids near anyone.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [00:07:49] They're a danger.

Lauren Matthias [00:07:50] Both Adam Steed and on on our channel Hidden True Crime as well as niece Jesse, Jody's niece Jesse on Mormon Stories) both stated that they are not surprised by this comment by Jody Hildebrandt because whenever she is confronted with something she might have done or abuse or cruelty, she then points the finger and makes herself try to look like the victim and makes a victim look like perhaps a perpetrator or that something is wrong with them that that's her tactic. Of course, in this case, it's not going to work. And in fact, the probable cause mentions that she states this to kind of say, well, obviously she knows what's going on.

Lauren Matthias [00:08:25] She knows about the abuse. And I agree that statement is really damning a sign. So thank you for playing that. I just wanted to give everybody a background here. What we just heard there is, is traumatic enough. People were very grateful to see that these two women were not just arrested, but that these children didn't lose their lives and that this brave boy escaped. So today, with, with the, with the guilty plea on the table in exchange for testifying against Jody Hildebrandt, this is what we learned Ruby Frankie's two children went through. I'm going to pull it up here and read it. And, and I believe you also have a slide with this, but I'm just going to pull it up here.

Lauren Matthias [00:09:09] Oh, here we go. I can probably even read it from the screen here. Actually, I'll pull it up right here. So. Four counts. She pleaded guilty again to four counts of second degree felony aggravated child abuse charges. From approximately May 22, 2023 until August 30, 2023, in Washington County, Utah, the defendant, Ruby Frankie, intentionally or knowingly inflicted and allowed another adult to inflict serious physical injuries upon her children that were ages 9 EF and 11 through 12. RF as more fully described below, count one. The defendant's actions involved the physical torture of RF initially, RF was forced to do physical tasks for hours and days at a time.

Lauren Matthias [00:09:57] These included wall sits, carrying boxes full of books up and down stairs, and working outside. Eventually, RF Was forced to do outside labor without shoes and in the summer heat again. St. George, Utah, southern Utah. In the summer heat, he was forced to stand in the direct sunlight for several days. He was forced to remain outside at all hours of the day and night for extended periods of time. These actions resulted in repeated and serious sunburns with blisters and sloughing skin. RF Was denied adequate water for several days and he was required to remain in the summer heat and he was punished. When he secretly consumed water, he was denied sufficient food, and when given food, he was given very plain meals, as in rice and chicken.

Lauren Matthias [00:10:42] While others in the house ate regular and more flavorful meals. He was isolated from other people and denied all forms of entertainment, including books, notebooks, and electronics. In addition, after RF Attempted to run away in July, his hands and feet were regularly bound.

Lauren Matthias [00:10:59] Binding included being tied to the defendant and to weights. Many times the binding included using two sets of handcuffs, one on RF's wrists and one on his ankles and at times with RF lying on his stomach. Ropes were used to tie the two sets of handcuffs together so that his arms and lower legs were lifted off the ground. The bindings resulted in injuries to RF's wrists in ankles where the handcuffs cut through the skin and and damaged the muscle and tissue. These injuries were treated with homeopathic remedies and covered with duct tape and then the bindings were placed on top of the duct tape.

Lauren Matthias [00:11:39] Specific instances of abuse committed by the defendant included kicking RF while wearing boots, holding his head underwater, and cutting off oxygen by placing her hands over his mouth and nose. The actions described above caused severe emotional harm to RF due to the fact that they began in May and escalated throughout the summer months.

Lauren Matthias [00:12:00] Additionally, the defendant and another adult regularly sought to indoctrinate RF and convince him that he was evil and possessed. This is seeming to be a trend in the the LDS crime world right now that children are evil and possessed. I just want to throw that out there. And that he needed to willingly be obedient to avoid punishments and that the punishments were necessary to repent. He was also told that everything that was being done to him were acts of love. Count three. The defendant's actions also caused severe emotional harm to ef other than binding and the specific instances of abuse RF was subjected to. EF was subjected to the same treatment as her brother.

Lauren Matthias [00:12:37] She was isolated and forced to do physical tasks, remain outside and denied food and water. She was repeatedly told she was evil and possessed. There we go again. The punishments were necessary for her to be obedient and to repent. And these things were being done to her in order to help her. If EF was convinced that she was evil and that she needed to go these things go through these things in order to repent.

Lauren Matthias [00:13:02] So this is what Ruby Frankie has admitted to today. Today she admitted to these horrible things. And, and this is an LDS therapist who worked very closely I I might add with like Tim Ballard with Tom Harrison who's the author of Visions of Glory.

Lauren Matthias [00:13:25] Eternal Core is a. Is a LDS God centered foundation or organization. Excuse me, that. That is run by LDS therapists. That's. That's Jody Hildebrandt. She used to be part of LDS services. She is lds. She attends church. She had her visit her. Her ministering teachers over during the time she had the kids in her house. They didn't know.

Lauren Matthias [00:13:49] And then you have Ruby Frankie, who is an LDS mother who was a YouTuber with millions and millions of followers. And between these two they had. We, we've talked to many people who, who followed this group called Connections. It was almost like an MLM therapy world. And now we know what they were doing to innocent children in their house. And it all I just want to point out too is surrounded this idea of the children being evil and needing to repent.

Lauren Matthias [00:14:19] And so that is what those children suffered in southern Utah. There they are, those two. So the sentencing again will be February 20th and we'll continue to follow that, follow that case which, which then you know. And speaking of possessed and children or people fearing. Here we go. Yes, people fearing the last days doomsday beliefs.

Spring Thibodeau and Brooke Hale Extradited to Arizona

Lauren Matthias [00:14:48] Spring Thibodeau and Brooke Hale. Let's talk about them. Many have heard of Blaze Thibodeau. He was a 16 year old boy who in October was taken from his high school in the middle of the day and left with his mother, Spring Thibodeau. This is in Maricopa County, Arizona. So this is Gilbert, Arizona area. Mesa, Arizona area. Phoenix, Arizona area.

Lauren Matthias [00:15:14] He was a football star at his high school. He had a football game I think was it the next day, Rebecca? I can't recall. But, but he, he was, he did not have the same doomsday beliefs as his mother. But all of a sudden he left with his mother and his uncle, Brook Hale, his mother's brother.

Lauren Matthias [00:15:37] They flew to Boise, Idaho. At that moment, his dad said, hey, something's going on. This is back in October. So I've taken you guys back to October. Something's going on. I'm concerned. Arizona, who had this exact same scenario happen with the daybell case, it was like deja vu for law enforcement there in Arizona when Lori Daybell left with her children to Idaho as well, acted swiftly. Luckily they arrested the pair Spring and Brooke at the Alaskan border. Canada, Alaskan border. And Brooke, excuse me, Blaze was returned safely to home. They, these two have been in custody ever since. But this week, here's the news, they were extradited back to Arizona, both of them.

Lauren Matthias [00:16:23] They are now back in Maricopa county and a lot is coming forward. Brook Hale tomorrow will have a status conference hearing. And then on Thursday, Brook Hale, there will be a preliminary hearing for Brooke Hale, which I'm curious to know if we're going to learn a little bit more. And then here's the most interesting thing though, in my opinion. So Spring Thibodeau, the mother, she's back in custody in Arizona. She is now housed, get this, in the, in the same, in the same Facility and on the same floor now as Lori Valo. Dava.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:03] So these two mothers. Look at them there. Look at them there. These two mothers, Spring Thibodeau and Lori Valo, who have very similar beliefs, very similar beliefs about the Last days. The. The sort of doomsday Mormonism. Visions of Glory is a book they both knew, both from Arizona.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:24] They are now on the same floor. And the reason they are. Lori Vala was convicted of killing her children in Idaho just this year. But she was extradited herself just recently to Arizona to face charges in the murder of her husband, Charles Valo, because he was killed in Arizona, where the children were killed in Idaho. So she's just been extradited back to Arizona herself. And Spring Thibodeau has now been extradited back to Arizona. And there these two women are together who remind us so much of each other.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:57] And there they are. So. And so I. To be a fly on the wall. Right. I don't know what those two women are going to do there.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [00:18:05] But.

Lauren Matthias [00:18:05] But rfm. I know we have an attorney here. I did want to ask you. Look around. Yeah. I did want to ask you your thoughts on. They both have a really high bond set. 500, 000 each. They were extradited. A preliminary hearing is often where we learn about more evidence that they have against these two. Isn't that right? Do you think we'll be learning more this week or what are your thoughts?

RFM [00:18:32] You know, I don't practice in either Utah or Arizona, but usually a preliminary hearing, you're going to be able to see what's in the probable cause affidavit. Or in some fashion up here in Washington, it would be a probable cause affidavit. In some way. The prosecutor is going to have to put forth or reveal some of their cards as to why it is that Spring and Brook should be kept in custody or why they should even be charged with anything. So that will be interesting to know.

Lauren Matthias [00:19:00] Okay. Okay. And any thoughts on the high bond? 500,000 each. Because I want to point out that they were. They were arrested with custodial interference. The mother and father were still married, although there was no divorce, you know, in the works. And so. So that was the crime. Although now there's endangerment of a child as well. It seems like an awfully high bond. Do you think that this would imply that they have a lot of evidence against these two or any thoughts on

RFM [00:19:31] my understanding is that the violation of the court order by what was that child. The taking and grabbing the Child and running, whatever they call that in Arizona. Yeah, of course it's a 16 year old as well and a football player, which is going to factor into it as well. But my understanding is, is that there was no order in place preventing her from going anywhere with her own child until after she had up and gone with the child. And then the father went to court and got an order saying, no, the kid has to be with me. And so they were able to go and get the child based on that.

RFM [00:20:05] I think that that charge is probably going to have to be dismissed at some point because unless the Constitution means something different in the state of Arizona than it does up here, you can't violate an order that you have no knowledge exists.

Lauren Matthias [00:20:23] Right. It's an interesting, it's an interesting process they went through. And you know, I want to point out though, and I think you have this slide, Bill, that one reason they were able to get this order of custodial interference after they fled was because of Lori Valo. Davel and honestly, in many ways it shows that Arizona has learned their lesson. They did not act swiftly when it came to Lori Valo. Debel Charles Vala was murdered in, in and they, they weren't arrested. Lori Valo was given a victim's advocate instead of, you know, being arrested and they were able to leave to Idaho where the kids were murdered.

Lauren Matthias [00:21:01] And, and in many ways a lot of people, I think do blame Arizona for the death of the children. They, they believe, many people believe that the children could have possibly been saved had Arizona acted swiftly. So I think this does show that Arizona is, is changing how they act when it comes to LDS women and their doomsday beliefs.

RFM [00:21:24] Yes. And to answer the question, you put more directly to me, I expect $500,000 is a lot of bail, but they want to make sure they get them, they bring them back. And that was the main point of it. I would expect that at the first bail hearing held by these individuals with their attorneys that that bail will probably be substantially reduced and a no contact order put in place. If there isn't one already saying you can't have contact with Blaze.

Lauren Matthias [00:21:48] Okay, thank you. Number eight right here, it says the mother. You know what, I'm having a hard time reading it. Could somebody read the screen? This is where I wanted to point out what, what you said, RFM that it came after. And I explained that they did this because of the doomsday beliefs. I believe it was number eight. Oh, here we go. Okay. Several years ago, mother started forming beliefs. In the end of the world scenario extreme. Eerily similar to the. Well, I can't see it publicized Lori Valo and Chad Dabel case saga which also took place in Gilbert and Idaho. And I can't read the rest. It's too small for me.

RFM [00:22:35] I can.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:35] But ended in tragedy essentially. So they added that to, to their. When they decided to arrest these two. That that was their reasoning was Lori Val. So another fellow Mormon mother. And so ironically, they are now housed together in the same facility. Not housed. Well, I guess housed. Whatever they are, they're together stamping up. And before I continue, this is a good one. I thought I was plugged in and it says my battery charger. My now my. I, I need to plug in my charger before my laptop dies. Give me a second, guys. I thought. Here it is, here it is. Give me a second.

RFM [00:23:20] I know Lauren's been busy with that laptop all day long today reporting on her own YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:28] Yes, yes, RFM and actually. And then after this I will also be on News Nation tonight continuing the reporting for Ruby Frankie. So turn into Banfield on News Nation tonight for even more of that story. Stampin Up. This is a case that I want to put our marker. Should I say stamp on? Let's put our stamp on. This is an important case that is developing and the reason it is so important is because Stampin up is a MLM crafting company that started in, in Utah. Kanab, Utah, actually it's now, I believe in northern Utah by the Gardner family, Shelley and Sterling Gardner. Shelley founded the company.

Stampin Up Distributor Murder Case in Florida

Lauren Matthias [00:24:16] This is their daughter. Well, that's okay, you can go to that. That's their daughter Sienna right there. Why is this important? Well, Stampin up is now funding one of the most expensive defenses in the country right now. Stampin Up, Stamping up distributors because again, it's an MLL model and, and when I say the most expensive defense in the country, I mean it's. And why is this? Because their daughter, their own daughter, Shanna Lee Gardner, a returned missionary herself, has now been charged with murdering her ex husband, the father to her two children. His name is Jared Bride. Again, many might know this case or the headlines to Microsoft executive murdered in Florida.

Lauren Matthias [00:25:02] Interestingly enough, very few headlines begin with stamping up. They mentioned Microsoft. But I think stamping up is what's really important about this because again, it is their daughter that has now been charged along with two other people in this case, Jared Brideigan. He was only 33 years old, a very young father and he was murdered in February of 2022.

Lauren Matthias [00:25:31] This I'm going to get to why it matters right now. But let me because this might be new to many people this case. I'm going to read a brief local story right here from the Jacksonville what is the I will find Florida Times Union and I will link, I will send this link because I did not let you guys know about this link. So we'll make sure to link all of our sources on January 25, 2023. Jacksonville Beach Police Department.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:02] Oh, excuse me. Let me start up here and give you guys the timeline. So let's start this year. Jared and Shanna are both returned missionaries. They meet, they, they decide, they get married in the temple and very quickly they have twins.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:23] I also, I think I, I, I'm going back, I'm going all over the place. Bill, you're doing a great job switching back and forth between as my brain goes. So thank you for all your hard work. But there's also a prenuptial agreement between Jared and Shanna and I think that's really important too because it says there. So the gardeners had Jared sign a prenup and they explained that Shanna is a stampin up heir to this fortune. So so again, stamping up is important here.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:56] So so back to this Florida Times Union article. On the evening of February 16, 2022, Jared Bright again. So they get divorced. They're divorced now. Jared is now remarried to to Kirsten bride again and they have two young children and there is contentious custody battle continuing on for years and Shanna herself gets remarried. Okay, so here we are, it's February 16, 2022 and Jared Brigan had just dropped off his nine year old twin son and daughter to his ex wife's home in Jacksonville beach and was headed back to St. Augustine where he lived with his two year old daughter. In the car he stopped because a tire on the road near the exit of Sanctuary neighborhood in what police believed from the onset that this was a planned murder.

Lauren Matthias [00:27:43] Jared was shot multiple times as he apparently attempted to move a tire in the middle of the road. His vehicle's hazard lights were still blinking and his two year old daughter was sitting in her car seat unharmed but clearly devastated. Police said nothing appeared to have been stolen and his wife had just spoken with him and said nothing seemed out of the ordinary. This was also his regular route where he was expected to be.

Lauren Matthias [00:28:11] Jared Bradigan was a 33 year old Microsoft executive and father of four. Again two children, twins with his ex wife Shannon Gardner and then he had two other children with his new wife Kirsten. He had on January 25th. So now. So let's so on.

Lauren Matthias [00:28:33] The murder happened February 16th, 2020. 22. January 25th, 2023. Jacksonville Beach Police Department Chief Jean Paul Smith and state Attorney Listen Nelson announced the arrest of Henry Arthur Tenon, 61 years old then on charges of conspiracy to commit murder, second degree murder with a weapon and accessory after the fact to face capital felony and child abuse. Tenant pleaded guilty on March 16 and agreed to testify against Mario Fernandez. He was arrested the same day. Now who's Mario Fernandez? Shanna Gardner's new husband. And Henry Tenon turns out was one of their tenants that that they had some apartments.

Lauren Matthias [00:29:13] So then what happens next? We can all guess and assume Shanna Gardner is then arrested. Later this year, Shanna Gardner is arrested in Washington where she had moved with her two children. And Shelly and Sterling Gardner then take the twins. They have custody of the twins. The twins have not seen their half siblings since the arrest. Well, since actually Jared was murdered.

Lauren Matthias [00:29:43] Shanna kept the children from his. From his. Jared's new wife and the half siblings. And now Shelley and Sterling Gardner again Stampin up founders are now keeping the children. As far as I can tell from the bright against and but even more. And here they are. This is a. This is actually an article from the Deseret News years ago, millionaire CEO steps down to serve an LDS mission.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:13] This is an article where they were highlighted and they served a mission. They actually talk about how they stood up and told all our demonstrators around the world that they were leaving on a mission because they believed in transparency and relationships. Although they then hired Curtin and McConkey to send out a statement to all of the media and their demonstrators. And they pretty much said, don't talk about this. We're not going to talk about this. And we're not going to tell you what happened, but we're going to support our daughter no matter what.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:41] So they've changed their tune a little bit with transparency. And here you go. And when they say they're going to support their daughter no matter what, they mean it. See that guy in the middle there? Jose Baez. That is one of the most expensive defense attorneys in the country.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:58] Who are his clients? Harvey Weinstein, Casey Anthony. Many who follow crime. No, Casey Anthony. This is a infamous woman. She might have been the most hated mother in the country until Lori Valo Debel came along and she actually was released. She was not.

Lauren Matthias [00:31:19] She's living free. Jose Bias was her attorney. And then we have Aaron Hernandez. Those are just a few of this man's clients and Stampin Up Shelley and Sterling Gardner have now hired him to defend their daughter. Their daughter who has now been charged with first degree murder death. A death penalty is possibly on the table. And I think this is a really important story for Those that are LDs to be following because how many have heard of Stamping Up? How many people know a demonstrator Stampin Up? Do Stampin up demonstrators know that they're going to be helping to fund one of the most expensive defenses in the country right now?

Lauren Matthias [00:32:02] I just think this is really interesting and I think this has been an underplayed story. And I I we're going to be following along. We're going to be following along. And so I while again the headlines often say Microsoft Exec, I think that we should maybe start letting people know that Stampin up is a big company to be known when it comes to the story. So that's what I have as far as crime goes today. There you go.

Bill [00:32:29] Thank you, Lauren. You guys can find out more from Lauren at Hidden True hidden true crime.com and the Hidden True Crime YouTube channel where she covers these stories and more. Now turning our attention to other significant news from the past week, we've got Radio Free Mormon. RFM has extensively covered the Tim Ballard and our events in the news that have been going on. And tonight he brings us that in more rfm. What do you have for us?

LDS Women Protest and Relief Society Anniversary

RFM [00:32:56] Well, thank you very much, Mr. Riel. I'm going to be blitzing through this because I know we've got certain time constraints and I want to make sure that those are honored. First slide. Hey, can we put the slides up there?

RFM [00:33:08] Salt Lake Tribune, December 11, 2023 Peggy Fletcher stack and David Noyce published an article. They want us for the Work, but they Don't Want Us to be Visible LDS Women React to Stand Removal. We can go to the next slide. Thank you. For More than a Decade by the way, these are excerpts from the article itself. For more than a decade, women's leaders were invited to sit on the stand facing the pews during Sunday services among some Latter Day Saint congregations in the San Francisco Bay Area. You may remember that we did a panel discussion on this at Radio Free Mormon a couple of weeks ago.

RFM [00:33:41] It was an uncontroversial tradition until October, when an area president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ordered an end to the practice. Now, for some reason, the Salt Lake Tribune is Tribune is continuing its practice of shielding the identity of this area president who is a 70 whose name is Mark A. Bragg with two G's. Just want to put that out there. In the first article, they masked his identity. They mention only his title. In the second article, this one, they're doing the same. The move no, not quite done yet. Thank you. The move felt arbitrary to many members and was made without consulting any of the women affected, all of whom were devout believers.

RFM [00:34:20] After a Salt Lake Tribune story about the edict, many women in the region and across the country are writing letters. And this is the update. The church headquarters in Salt Lake City explaining why the tradition had been good for women in a faith governed by men as a sign of inclusion and gender gender equity. Now there's also some questions and answers from two individuals who are female leaders in the LDS Church in the Bay Area. How did you feel when you heard that this practice had been discontinued, the practice of having female leaders sitting on the stand? Lauren McNeil, a current Relief Society president in Sunnyvale, California, answered, I was hurt and wounded.

RFM [00:34:55] I lost several nights of sleep. Our local leaders have been amazing. They always want to draw a distinction between the local leaders and the general leaders, I. E. Mark a. Bragg with two GS. It seems like the local leaders have really been going out of the way to try and do everything they can while still having to yield to the commands of their seniors in the church. Our local leaders have been amazing. They have struggled with this change as well. They did not want to do it. They've seen the blessings and how positive it is overall. By the way, that is a classic definition of the LDS Church.

RFM [00:35:30] When you have to do things that you don't want to do simply because someone above you in the rank ranking division tells you you have to. They didn't want to do it, but they have. And Lauren McNeil says, I was angry. They church higher ups, I. E. Mark A. Bragg, want us for the work, but they don't want us to be visible. And that really felt personal. Yet it wasn't really about me. It's not about me sitting on the stand. It's about us representing the sisters voices and being a part of the equation and the great work that the church does.

RFM [00:36:01] Did the area president ever talk with you or other women leaders to make the decision? McNeil says no. Well, actually, she says, the information was given to our stake president who oversees a number of congregations, and then it was left to the stake presidents to deal with it. My bishop personally spoke to over 35 individuals before he did anything.

RFM [00:36:21] Did the authority give you a reason for this change? Amy Jensen, who served as a young women leader in Lafayette, California, said, not a clean, clear or explicit one. No, the reason that I heard from my male leadership was that it was about uniformity.

RFM [00:36:36] Have you launched a letter writing campaign to the general women's leaders in church headquarters? Jensen says. But when I started thinking, by the way, these are excerpts from the interview and you can see the longer responses in the article that's provided and you can hear all the responses in the oh, what is the Salt Lake Tribune's podcast?

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [00:36:58] Mormon Land.

RFM [00:36:59] Thank you, Mormon Land, where they actually interview him. These are excerpts from that. So Jensen said. But when I started thinking about how to reach more people, I decided to write an open letter to the general women presidents of the church expressing how much this tradition had meant to us and hoping that they would hear my voice. I invited other people to sign on. We've had about 2,000 people add their name to the letter from more than 20 countries. It's not about recognition, but it's actually about being recognizable, McNeil said. It's a validation of the contributions that sisters make. Not just any individual, but it speaks to all of them.

RFM [00:37:37] I mean, and I added this because I think this was a really great point that had never occurred to me before. I mean, like, my husband doesn't even know who the stake primary president is. She could walk past him on the street and he wouldn't know who she is. Right. Because there's no visibility. But the stake president would never pass walk past him on the street without him knowing. So in other words, but the state president would never pass my husband on the street without my husband knowing. Hey, that's the stake president. So a Tribune commentary proposed Latter Day Saint women stay home from church on March 17, 2024.

RFM [00:38:11] The reason being not because it's St. Patty's Day, but because it would be the 182nd anniversary of the Relief Society's founding as a sort of protest, which it looks like happens to fall on a Sunday. Would you support that? McNeil said, I think we should show up but do nothing.

RFM [00:38:27] No conducting the singing, no teaching primary. Just show up and then let everyone see how well a Sunday operates without the sisters. And finally, what would you ultimately like to see happen on this issue? Jensen said. One of the young women who wrote a letter said, I'm okay with uniformity. Remember, that was the reason that was given for getting the women off the stand, was to have uniformity throughout the stakes and words of the church. And this young woman turned that statement on its head. I think and said I'm okay with uniformity. So let's just have all of the stands everywhere have a woman on them. I think that would be pretty great.

Bill [00:39:04] Do you think it was strange rfm that Bragg's name? I mean, obviously we leave names out sometimes when we're talking somebody who's innocent a story. Victims sometimes especially underage, but in this instance it's the person who's sort of at the top of causing the trouble in terms of what they visibly see. Do you sort you think it's sort of strange that they leave him out?

RFM [00:39:24] I think it's clear that whatever the reason behind it was, that there was a choice that was made.

Lauren Matthias [00:39:30] Yeah.

RFM [00:39:31] It's not a coincidence they didn't mention his name. There was a discussion about it and a decision made by somebody in control to leave it out.

Bill [00:39:40] Yeah, it seems strange to me.

Church News and Hamas Investment Funds

RFM [00:39:43] The next story has to do with Come Follow me simplifies from four manuals to one. This is from the Church News in the Living Faith section from By Paul Jensen. Excuse me By Ryan Jensen. I'll have to make that bigger next time. December 13, 2023 the church makes its first significant adjustment to come follow me since 2019. From the article Next year's manuals will be different from that first experience as the church moves away from separate manuals for the home, Sunday school, primary and youth classes, each of which has its own manual up until January.

RFM [00:40:22] Instead of having four manuals for those groups, one unified manual has been published and distributed to individuals and families around the world. Here are the covers of the four manuals that used to exist and now they have all been put into this manual. One manual to rule them all. Come Follow me it says, and now it has been apparently structured in such a way that the same lessons that are given to the primary children are exactly the same lessons in the same manual that will be given to the much older members of the church.

RFM [00:41:01] So I used to say that in the LDS church you never actually graduate from primary. Now the church is proving me correct. The article goes on the previous method meant the Church was providing a home, primary, Sunday school and Youth manual for 71 languages across four years, for a total of 1,136 different printed manuals. The new method will drastically reduce the number of manuals that need to be maintained while creating a new, stronger tool.

RFM [00:41:30] New and stronger. That's what it says and certainly dumbed down that meets the needs of the growing church. Well, if it's going to meet the needs of the growing church, it will have to be dumbed down, I suppose. And it, the church is acting like it really does need to tighten its belt and save money because it doesn't have enough in the bank. So we'll go from four manuals to the one next.

RFM [00:41:49] Oh, the next story is about the New York Times, right? Joe Becker and Justin Scheck. December 16, 2023. Israeli security officials scored a major intelligence coup in 2018. Secret documents that laid out in intricate detail what amounted to a private equity fund that Hamas used to finance its operations. And the New York Times had a very, very long article about this and very detailed. But the LDS Church's name gets mentioned twice in this article which gathered some attention.

RFM [00:42:24] Here's one of the places the Turkish company at the heart of the operation had seen had such a sheen of legitimacy that major American and European banks managed shares on behalf of clients. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints invested tens of thousands of dollars before the company was placed under sanction. Now some people were running with this and saying, look, the Church of Jesus Christ, the LDS Church, the Mormon Church, it finances terrorists. Well, the reason its name appears here in the New York Times, at least according to my reading, isn't because the LDS Church is intentionally financing terrorists. What the gist of the article is is that because governments, including the United States government, did not take quick action to blacklist these companies, they were able to parade as legitimate companies such that even organizations such as the Church of Jesus Christ bought stock in it.

RFM [00:43:26] And here's the other place. So in other words, this isn't about how bad the the Church is. This is about how bad the governments bungled it so that even the the church and a lot of other people would innocently bought stock in this organization.

RFM [00:43:42] Mr. Erdogan was a major proponent of the that's from Turkey, of course, of the nation's building industry, which was good news for the company. At the center of the Hamas portfolio, a real estate developer named Trend G Y O. Foreign investors piled in in 2019 while Washington sat on the ledgers. That's the ledgers of the materials that they had but were not publicizing. American and European banks held more than 3% of the company's publicly traded shares on behalf of clients. Turkish financial records show the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Here's the second mention.

RFM [00:44:16] Investment arm Enzyme Peak Advisors bought more than 200000 shares. And I highlighted this next line, which is from the article. There is no indication that the church or the western banks knew about any Hamas ties at the time, a church spokesman said that a U S based investment advisor, Acadian Asset Management, bought the shares on its behalf. An Acadian spokesman said the company had complied with all relevant laws. So this, if we go back to that there bill, this, this was an article which had engendered some conversation. I just wanted to touch on it because of that and also to stress that according to my reading of it, even though the church has certainly not had its hands clean in all the dealings with epa, this doesn't appear to be one of those situations.

RFM [00:45:09] Continuing on. Okay. Paul Hutchinson, a former associate at a high level and lots of money invested in our and Tim Ballard dropped a video last week saying why I separated from our and Tim Ballard. I did a video on this at Radio Free Mormon last week. But the bullet points of this video and there's some bombshells here, it verifies Paul Hutchinson personally verifies the whiteboard meeting in toto, which is what lawyers say when they mean in total everything about it, it is verified. It happened in Paul's house. He's an eyewitness or at least claims to be one. It was likely about five years ago or in 2018.

Tim Ballard Whiteboard Meeting Controversy

RFM [00:45:52] I say that because he says that it was five years ago he parted ways with Tim Ballard and he also says that this was the event that caused him to do so. Paul says not only Tim Ballard was in attendance, but Tim's bishop, Tim's psychic and also Glenn Beck.

RFM [00:46:07] Paul saw Tim bring into Paul's house the whiteboard and set it up and draw the diagram on it showing all of Tim's non profits in one row of squares and the creation of a new for profit above them all that being slave stealers. So in other words, Paul's saying I was there, it was in my house. Tim Ballard brought it in, Tim Ballard wrote it all on the board. And even though Paul Hutchinson doesn't say so, it's almost certain that he's the one who snapped the picture of it. Because he was so upset about this, this is what caused him to say no more. We're parting ways, partner to Tim Ballard.

RFM [00:46:40] So I think that he probably took that picture. So he verifies not only the authenticity of the the drawing on the whiteboard but who drew it and under what circumstances. The slave stealers. The box at the top shows Tim Ballard, one other and Mr. Ballard as a silent partner in the for profit slave stealers. All the money from Child Liberation foundation or fund which was Paul Hutchinson's organization, his fundraising organization, his organization to try and help out children. And according to the diagram that Tim Ballard drew, all the money from Paul Hutchinson's organization, the Child Liberation Fund, would also flow into Tim's non profits. From there, all profits from the non profits would be emptied into a big bathtub looking shape at the bottom of the diagram labeled Timothyballer.com and halfway through the presentation, Paul Hutchinson says that Tim Ballard says to the assembled group, the next part may be illegal.

RFM [00:47:38] And there's the, there's the picture of the whiteboard which is exactly the picture that Paul Hutchinson says was in his house probably five years ago and he saw Tim Ballard write all of this up there. And then there was A recent article Dec. 16 Excuse me, from the Salt Lake Tribune, Dec. 16, 2023, by Robert Gerke. The psychic Janet Russin. She speaks up Psychic who aided Tim Ballard says she never spoke to Book of Mormon prophet Nephi.

RFM [00:48:09] Janet Russin, a psychic who worked with Operation Underground Railroads, broke her silence about the allegations against Ballard. And no, you are during a podcast this week. This is her quote in the article. There's no talking to the Book of Mormon deceased prophet Nephi. Russin said that's completely false. In fact, when she puts it that way. Can you go back to the, the one before this?

RFM [00:48:30] It's just so funny the way it's put because you know how when you talk to people that there's no talking to, you'll say something, there's no talking to this person. It's like Janet Rustin is saying about Book of Mormon Nephi.

RFM [00:48:38] Next one. There's no talking to the Book of Mormon deceased prophet Nevi. You just can't talk to this guy. That's completely false. And I don't know if she's leaving that open to it being Nephi Anderson who is the alleged grandfather or great grandfather of Tim Ballard.

RFM [00:48:54] Because you know, talking to that Nephi, Nephi Anderson, that's totally rational. But talking to that Book of Mormon Nephi, that would be crazy. This is becoming known as the Nephi's ruse.

Bill [00:49:07] Am I mistaken RFM to say that? Didn't Paul's video, didn't he make mention that she was talking to Nephi?

RFM [00:49:16] Yes, he mentioned it very quickly as an aside about Book of Mormon prophets. I think he says.

Bill [00:49:22] Yeah. So at least other people close to the situation can. Can testify from their own personal experience that this isn't true. That he actually. That she actually was talking to Nephi from the Book of Mormon.

RFM [00:49:38] Yeah, it's not clear as to when what his knowledge is based on and whether it was obtained beforehand or after from new sources. So I just think, yeah, it's Nephi and I expect it was Nephi from the Book of Mormon, because who cares what Nephi Anderson has to say, really? I mean, Nephi from the Book of Mormon, he's got gravitas, he's got cachet. He just can't find a, you know, a kidnapped kid to save his soul.

Lauren Matthias [00:50:01] Yeah.

RFM [00:50:02] In a somewhat related Shakespeare play written about 400 years ago, a little bit more actually, Owen Glendower bragging about his supernatural skills, much like Janet Russin has, I can call it Spirits from the Vasty Deep. And Hotspur somewhat flippantly responds, why, so can I or so can any man. But will they come when you do call them? That's the question that I have for Janet Rin.

Bill [00:50:29] It's easy to talk to spirits, but them talking back's the problem, huh?

RFM [00:50:33] Yes, yes, exactly.

Lauren Matthias [00:50:35] Love it.

RFM [00:50:37] And it goes on quoting from Janet Rustin. Donors like myself who donated believing that the money is going to go to rescues. These women are demanding to have that money in their pockets. Russin said. She went on to claim the plaintiffs are not only punishing Ballard and our, but they're punishing these children. I put that in there because that is a classic, classic argument, which if you follow it to its logical end, it means that anybody who presents themselves as helping children in any way should not be sued for anything, no matter what other conduct they may engage in,

Bill [00:51:13] as the money comes in from donations and funnels its way to the various extraordinary expenses of our. It also occurs to me that it's strange that Russin would say this when she's one of the ones at the bottom collecting some of the donations as well.

RFM [00:51:26] Well, especially when the whiteboard shows that all of it was supposed to be going into Ballard's pockets or at least his bathroom.

Lauren Matthias [00:51:33] She was made. She was making quite a large salary. We also know from the lawsuits as well. So she would be taking that money away from children.

RFM [00:51:43] That's a good point.

Bill [00:51:44] It seems that something we have to figure out how the two of them knew each other, because here's a psychic who gets hired, gets paid lots of money and doesn't seem to be doing a very efficient job at finding children.

RFM [00:51:58] I've got a feeling there may be a Tom Harrison connection.

Lauren Matthias [00:52:01] Yeah, certainly, certainly. I. I think there might be. Yes. And she did refer in that interview, I might add, to not just sharing that Tom Harrison absolutely is the writer of Visions of Glory, because rumor has it he's trying to distance himself a bit in some circles. She explained that he is a very good friend of hers and that they would go to these conferences. So I think you might be right rfm that there might be a Tom Harrison connection. He did connect a lot of like minded people, including Jody Hildebrandt who we've already talked about.

RFM [00:52:38] Very good. The last clip I have from this article is Russin falsely said that a statement issued by the LDS Church rebuking Ballard for morally unacceptable behavior. Remember that was September 15, 2023 and misusing the name of late apostle M. Russell Ballard never actually came from the church.

RFM [00:52:57] Tim and Russell Ballard are not related. Bresson said she called the church five times and each time was told the church never issued such a statement. A church spokesperson, however, has repeatedly confirmed to the Salt Lake Tribune and other media outlets that the statement did did come from the Utah based faith.

RFM [00:53:13] Okay, my only comment about that is, please Peggy, quit inserting yourself in the article and saying that Russin falsely said that a statement issued by the LDS Church, okay? That's not your purview. You're a journalist. So please don't be telling me what's false and what's true. Just give me the facts and I'll make up my own mind.

Bill [00:53:32] And the church could step forward at any point and clear up the story, couldn't they?

RFM [00:53:37] Oh, certainly they could. It's almost as if the church wants this kind of misunderstanding to ensue. What do you think about that, by the way, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:53:49] You know, as a journalist that's reached out to the church a lot. I, I do have a different view. I feel like the church has done what they, they did and they did it appropriately. They were reached out by comment for a story by Vice News. And most often when we reach out for comment to the church and it's the appropriate thing Vice News did is to get both sides. You should always reach out to the other side if you're writing to them. They responded to Vice News and they put that comment in the article. This was not a, this was not a statement for the church newsroom.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:25] It was in response to Vice News asking them a question. And then when other news agencies followed to confirm what the church said, they reiterated and shared once again this statement with additional journalists who reached out to the church. I don't see that there was ever a reason to put it on the church newsroom when that is for events and changes in protocol or, or you know, the giving tree, the little foreshadowing of, of what we're going to be talking about. But you know, and I think actually I like the Peggy put falsely in because there comes time in this day and age with conspiracy theories and misinformation.

Lauren Matthias [00:55:11] It's true that it used to be that we didn't have to say falsely or that somebody is lying, but when cable news likes to tell us so often things that are completely false or untrue and when someone is stating that something is false when it's absolutely true, like there's just no way she called the, you know, I don't know. I, I'm not opposed to falsely there. I see your point too. I see your point too. Let's let us decide and just stick with the facts. But it's just to me, mind blowing sometimes that the, the way people have questioned Vice News, other journalists in Utah who have received the same statement from the church and it was done, I think in, in the appropriate way.

RFM [00:55:51] See my point of view on that. And I'll leave the falsely as something that we have a bit of tension there. But that's okay because I see your point too, especially half of yours is my side anyway. But, but this whole thing, this whole thing about if you're the church and you have issued a, a statement about somebody who is controversial like Tim Ballard, and he's very popular in among the members of your church, and you've got all these members of your church who are publicly saying, I don't believe this came from the church. Why on earth would the church not make it official through an official announcement?

RFM [00:56:25] In other words, make a special case for it in order to let your members know, yes, we really said this. Unless they're afraid that that's going to cause more blowback from the members who really love Tim Ballard. It's like they're playing, trying to play both ends against the middle here.

Lauren Matthias [00:56:41] I guess it depends on what's official to everyone. Right. Because to, to journalists, to me, official would be sending it to every news outlet in Utah, which would be quite official, which is what they did. Right. I mean it's, it's a news comment. It's something that the news should run and all of the news in Utah that covers the church ran it and they sent it to all of those journalists. I mean, I don't know if it gets more official than that.

RFM [00:57:09] All they need is a sponsor, the spokesperson to come out and say, yes, it's real.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [00:57:13] Right. However, I feel in Utah among a lot of members, the only official source is the church news or the church newsroom. And until they hear it from there, they are not going to believe it, no matter how credible any other source is.

Bill [00:57:26] Either way, research is not the answer.

RFM [00:57:28] So that's right. And I can hardly wait to hear about this giving machina. What is that? Is that something the LDS Church is involved in? Rebecca?

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [00:57:36] Is it? I don't know. Yeah, I'm very excited to talk about this and I appreciate Lauren and RFM and your stories. There was so much news this week, it was just crazy. We were like, which story? We're going to cover, what's going to happen. So I'm glad that we were able to kind of hone it down to some of the more important ones. Happy Holidays, everybody. The LDS Church has let's go to my next slide really quick. We're going to talk right now about Christmas giving and then another sort of related, almost twisted opposite article about giving back. So if we can go to the next slide, we will start by talking about the LDS giving machines.

Light the World Giving Machines and Charitable Giving

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [00:58:09] You've probably seen these. If you haven't seen them, you've probably heard about them. They're not red boxes. I noticed that somebody in the chat prior to us starting said, yeah, it's like a red box. It does kind of look like that. But these have been put out by the lds Church since 2017, and I think I'll start by reading a little bit of an article. I've done some of my own research into this. Oh, I'm sorry. So glad I printed this out on my own paper because again, like Lauren said, we have to make our slides bigger.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [00:58:37] So this was an article that was actually from the Church News last year at the end of the season. So it kind of has all the stats from last year. Of course, this year the stats are not in yet, so it says expanded location, mobile versions and generous givers to the light the world giving machines during the 2022 Christmas season means that millions of people worldwide will be blessed in 2023, which is where we are now. The giving machines, located in 28 cities and across six countries, drew an estimated of 425,000 donors from November through the first of January, according to a report published March 21 on the Church of Jesus Christ.org for those from those donations, more than 3.2 million healthy meals and 13,000 boxes of fresh produce will feed the hungry.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [00:59:22] Nearly 32,000 children will receive school supplies and class instruction, including 2900 scholarships for tuition and housing. More than 516,000 children will be vaccinated against polio and measles and more than this is my favorite part, and I think this is everybody's favorite part. More than 38,000 chickens, 25,000 ducks and 3,700 beehives because we are the beehive state will provide families with long term nutrition and income potential. So if you're not familiar with what a giving machine is, it is the giant red box where you put in your credit card and you can choose services, goods, products to go to families in need. Exactly. I'm assuming most of you are familiar.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:00:07] So let's go to our next slide. The Light the World Giving machines have now raised. And again, this was from last year because it's ongoing right now. This year they've raised $22 million from 1.5 million donors in six years, said Carl Chaney, the initiatives manager in the missionary department of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Now that's very interesting to me that somebody in the mission missionary department would be giving these stats. Giving machines will be be placed in 61 cities in seven countries in November and December, more than double the 28 machines that raised about $6 million last year. So this is something to know is that if you look at this graphic here, this is from the W might because they of course are very interested in any kind of statistics having to do with the charitable giving and receiving of donations.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:00:58] So it may be a little small to see, but you can see from when they started in 2017, there's a gap there for Covid because the giving machines didn't really happen. But every year just going up and up and they're on track this year to do quite a bit more.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:01:12] Let's go to the next slide. The giving machine is a way to give something tangible back. This holiday season, all purchased items are donated to those in need across the world. The Church of Jesus Christ covers all operational costs, so 100% of each donation goes directly to the charitable organization. So that's kind of in a nutshell, what a giving machine is. You give your funds, you choose a charitable product, and then the church gives it to that organization. So let's go to the next slide. This process, of course raises a lot of questions. Some people, people are incredibly suspicious of this. So on my podcast Mormonish, I decided to kind of dive in and ask some questions and talk to some people behind the scenes because on the surface it seems like a pretty amazing thing.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:02:00] In fact, you may have noticed the actor Paul Red. I don't know if you've seen these Tick tock videos where he's behind it? Well, I learned from a source that he just stumbled on those on his own. The church is not paying him, as a lot of people suggest. And he just stumbled upon him, thought it was the coolest thing he'd ever seen and decided to make his own promotional material. So I thought that was really interesting. Some of the questions that I kind of gathered from social media having to do with the giving machine, people are asking, how are the charities in the giving machine chosen?

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:02:31] That's a very good question. You see those little cards there? Each one has a charity and a product. How do those even get into the machine? Well, I contacted a former executive director of a non profit charity that was involved in the giving machine in years past. And basically they're nominated usually through some kind of LDS avenue, some kind of connection, connected person in the church. And they have to apply, much like you would for a grant. They have to make all of their financials transparent, everything, open their books, all their records, so that the church will know that they can be trusted to provide the goods that people are going to purchase after they're selected and they win the nomination.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:03:08] They work with the church to come up with the products, goods or services that are going to be seen on those little cards there in the giving machine. So it's all up and up as far as that. And the other thing that I didn't realize is that in each giving machine you're going to have international charities and then you're going to have local charities. So you have, you have goods and services provided internationally and also to people right in your neighborhood, right in your city. So I thought that was really cool. I didn't realize that either. Another question people were asking on social media, does your giving machine money go directly to the designated charity?

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:03:42] It does not. Once you put your credit card into that little slot and you pick what kind of service or good or product, like a chicken or a pig or a beehive that you want to donate. It will take your, your, your card, it'll run your card and then the church will take that money. And eventually, according to this executive director that I talked to, a lump sum will appear in the bank account of the charity. So yes, the money does go to the charity, but it first goes to the church and then it is sent to the charity. That's how it was explained to me by this particular executive director.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:04:19] Does the church match your giving machine donation? Wouldn't that be amazing? But that is not the case. That does not happen. The money that you give to Purchase the good and service. That is what goes to the charity.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:04:32] Does the LDS Church cover the operational costs? In many of the press releases it says that it does cover the operational costs. And I believe obviously it finds the venues, it makes the machines, although I feel like a lot of that might be donated.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:04:47] They also have, if you go to a giving Machine, missionaries. When I visited one in my local mall, there were some wonderful elders that were there all decked out, holiday attire. I went back another time and there were people from local wards and stuff. Mistakes. They are there to help you use the machine. They are there to hold your purse so that you can take a selfie and put it on social media. They definitely encourage you to promote and to put out pictures as you're using the Giving Machine. And I do have to say it's a pretty festive atmosphere at the Giving Machine. When I was there, little kids jumping up and down, they wanted to choose a chicken.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:05:22] They love to push the buttons. I mean, it's definitely a way to promote giving. Next question. Does the LDS Church report your giving machine donation as their own charitable contribution? Well, on my podcast we had accounting professor Spencer Anderson come on. He's associated with the Widow's Mite and he explained that, yes, that does happen. You donate your money to the Giving Machine, the church takes your money and then gives it to the charity. And then that money, that amount is included in their end of the year charitable giving report.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:05:55] Now, according to Spencer Andersen, it's kind of a drop in the bucket. It's a very, very small compared to all of the charitable giving that they might report that year. So I guess the bottom line is you can look at it however you want to look at it. Yes, the money does. And the goods and services do go to people in need. Yes, the church does report it as their own charitable giving. Could you just donate directly to the charity? Yes. Is it easy and fun to go up to the red machine and put in your credit card? And it is. So there are kind of give and take and different ways to look at it.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:06:28] Now, when you do run your credit card, I will tell you this, a little sign comes up that says, would you personally like to cover some of the operational credit card charges if you hit yes. That means that you're paying for it if you hit no. The church does have to cover it. So in that way they do bear some of the costs. So pros and cons, I don't know. What are you guys thoughts? Very quickly, any thoughts on giving Machines rfm?

RFM [01:06:57] Oh, I Think you nailed it with the guy who's in charge of it, the guy who's over at the missionary department. I know all roads in the LDS Church lead to the missionary department. I think anybody who's been a member for any amount of time knows that's true.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:07:08] Yeah, I think that's true. Have you ever come across one, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [01:07:11] I have. I have. They're all over where we're living and. And people seem to really enjoy them. You know, my thought, if Paul Rudd likes it, so. So do I. That's all that matters.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:07:22] The Rudd endorsement. That's it. Sold. Sold. That's it. Have you seen them, Bill, or used them?

Bill [01:07:30] I have not seen them anywhere other than in images online. I do find it sort of strange that an entity which is adamant that it not in various ways, be transparent or lay out its books requires that those charities that are part of its program here be open with its books and transparent. I. That sort of caught my eye.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:07:50] Yeah, it is interesting. And the executive director that I had talked to said, yeah, you know, we understand how that works. And. And again, most charities are so used to applying for grants that they're very proud of their transparency, they're proud of their books. Everything's up in above board, so they're more than happy to share, so. But they're on track this year to do even so much more than last year. So it's really growing incrementally into. And I should mention that they. They kicked off the whole campaign with a giant Times Square, every billboard lit up with the giving machine and messages from the church.

RFM [01:08:20] So was that the one where they all said, 1, 2, 3, let's go shopping?

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:08:25] It was similar to that. Similar to that, yes. There could be some little parallels there, but. And some people do question the commercialization of charitable giving. You don't see a lot of other churches who do a lot during the holidays and year round, you don't really know what they're doing. You know, it's very under wraps, but they're doing it. So. So that could be a question, too. So, again, love them or hate them, but the bottom line is there are good services and products going to people in need during the next year. So you can look at it that way. All right, now, that was the giving.

LDS Church Donation to First Americans Museum

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:08:55] Let's talk about taking back on my podcast, we also did an episode on this a couple months ago. We'd been kind of following this story over the summer, and it actually appeared in the Tribune a couple days ago. So I was excited to dive more into this. So this involves a two million dollar donation from the LDS Church to the First America's Museum. This is in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma and it is a gorgeous museum. If you can look at that picture right there. Let's go to our first slide.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:09:24] So basically the article is called thanks but no thanks. Native American Museum Returns LDS Church's two million Dollar Gift. And this happened a while ago. Like no one has really heard anything about this. I got wind of it kind of in the middle of the summer. But this is, this has been very much under wraps until Peggy kind of shone a light on it right here in this article. If you can go to the next slide.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:09:44] So she says. In a much publicized move, LDS letter to saint leaders announced a two million dollar donation to the First Americans Museum in Oklahoma City. Several Native American Latter Day Saints participated in the 2021 event, the church News reported, along with Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt, City Councilwoman Nikki Nice and other civic and tribal leaders. Native Americans have been moved around so much from different places that a lot of our families have lost contact with each other, museum Director James Pepper Henry said in a new church news release. Having a center here is a way for us to connect our families together again. And this was a big event.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:10:19] I've read several articles about this in Oklahoma newspapers. I talked to someone who was there the stakes put together choirs ahead of time. Kyle McKay, your friend and former mission companion RFM presented the check. There were talks that it was choir numbers. President Nelson broadcasted a big fireside to everybody talking about how amazing this would be now the two summers ago now, I think it was just last summer in North Carolina, an international African American museum opened. The church had done the same thing, donated $2 million. Family History center was going to be built. In this case it was built. You can go online and you can see this prominent family history center with the Church of Jesus Christ at Latter Day Saints written there.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:11:07] Staffed by LDS Missionaries Service missionaries there in this museum. So this is what was supposed to happen in Oklahoma at the First Americans Museum after this wonderful, you know, display of giving. Let's go to the next slide. Henry, the director, said at that time he hoped to have the center up and running by the summer 2022. Within weeks of the announcement, however, the museum returned the gift. Now this may have happened, but no one really knew anything about this. The agreement between the First Americans Museum and the church related to a grant in the amount of 2 million for the creation of a family history resource center will be discontinued, Perry wrote on the museum Website Fam First America's Museum will return the grant fund and will suspend plans to develop the center until further notice.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:11:56] We thank the church for their understanding and generosity. Now this is interesting to me because when I dug into this, I wrote letters to the museum, I wrote letters to the church, I wrote letters to the general authority that I learned was over this. I scoured the museum website for any kind of notice of what had happened, and I never found this statement. So I don't know if it's a late edition, but it was not there last summer when I was researching it that I could find. But what I did find were a lot of articles about the initial giving. So that was very interesting.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:12:28] Let's go to the next slide. So what did happen? And Farina? I actually had a phone call with her over the summer. A wonderful person who has a lot of insight into this. The episode was a mess of misunderstanding, explained Farina King, a Latter Day Saint and associate professor of Native American studies at the University of Oklahoma. Family history is big in Indian country, King said, but establishing a center at the museum would need to be done in the right way so everyone will benefit. A family search center, she said, was supposed to be a celebration of coming together where everyone cares about families. But there was not enough discussion between the parties, King said, before the announcement of the contribution.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:13:05] And this is true, this is something that I found in people that I contacted. Many of them did not know that had ever been on the table, and there were some definite opinions about what that would mean. So that was kind of interesting.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:13:19] Let's go to the next slide. Locals wondered if they could trust the LDS church where the money was coming from, King said. Were there strings attached? Some worried that the center might be staffed by Latter Day Saint missionaries and as I told you, in the International African American Museum, absolutely staffed by these missionaries, possibly proselyting to patrons, says the article. Others were concerned that their deceased ancestors would be baptized vicariously. Latter Day Saints researched the names of departed ancestors and living volunteers, then performed baptisms on behalf of these souls in the faith's temple. And this is, I think, a legitimate concern given that when you go in, you enter your family history, you bring your charts, your documents, and you enter it in and you set up a familysearch account.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:14:06] I'm just saying that I think they might have the right to have concern about that article finishes with or Farina's part finishes with. It takes work to earn Native Americans trust, King said, especially on sensitive issues. So there were all kinds of reasons why this probably should not happen. I do know that the director Pepper did come to Salt Lake, toured the Salt Lake Family History Library and was very excited about it. From that point, something was lost in translation and it never happened. Now, interesting to note on the next slide, when I did my research research last summer, you can't really read it very well.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:14:43] But this is a list of articles promoting and talking about this amazing donation of $2 million. One is on the church. This is just kind of to show the scope. It was mentioned everywhere that the donation was giving. What I didn't find is any kind of avenue through which anybody could say that the donation was taken back. If you go to the next slide or given back, I should say there is a big difference. And we did look into that. Was it taken back? Given back? It was given back. So right now today in Wikipedia, it says in an entry about Oklahoma and the lds Church, on October 17, 2021, the LDS Church donated $2 million to the first Americans Museum in Oklahoma City. The donation is intended to assist Native Americans in learning about their ancestral past.

Lauren Matthias [01:15:29] Past.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:15:30] So there it is. That is right there on Wikipedia today. Still talking about the donation. And I do know that the church does have the ability to add and take things from Wikipedia because I've seen things appear very quickly that have to do with things in a more positive light with the LDS Church. I think this is our final slider almost in the church news right now, today, at least earlier today, you can look it up and it says Church's 2 million dollar donation to Oklahoma's first Americans museum will helped reconnect Native American families. So it's just a question.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:15:59] If a donation is given and then given back, should that be made public? Should they still be receiving publicity from it? I talked to accounting Professor Spencer Anderson again of the widow's might for this episode and he said yes, probably he couldn't say for sure, but there are mechanisms in place that this two million dollar donation would still be counted as a, you know, charitable donation at the end of the year. He wasn't exactly clear on how that could be uncounted. Would it be rolled over? He wasn't sure. So that's a gray area too. So anyway, a lot of gray areas. But the bottom line is this is a gorgeous museum if you ever have a chance to visit us.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:16:36] Some of the final takeaways. The two million dollar donation was made in 2019. Multiple articles reported the donation and where it was going to be used for the Family history center. The first Americans museum opened in 2021, no family history center, no reporting that it had been returned the donation and articles Wikipedia still today saying that the donation happened. So kind of an interesting scenario. What does anyone else think? Rfm, any thoughts very quickly?

RFM [01:17:05] No, just that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the LDS Church is not going to give $2 million to anybody unless they can hope to get some benefit for themselves. And that is having missionary staff. That of course, it may not be proselytizing missionaries, just having missionary staff. It doesn't mean they're trying to actively proselytize. It just means they want free labor as usual. But I think the main thing is that, yeah, we're going to have you get to know your ancestors so you can insert it into our machine so then we can take those names to the temple and baptize them and save them in the celestial kingdom.

Bill [01:17:38] And we know that there's been, you know, times in the past with, for instance, those of the Jewish tradition, Jewish faith, that were baptisms occurred. And I think in part the bigger story here is that the church did this with an African American museum, correct?

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:17:53] Yep.

Bill [01:17:54] And so we know the church's history with its relationship with those of color and the curse prior to 78 and less valiant and all of that. And then you've got Native Americans where they are. Within LDS theology, we take Native Americans in the church and we go, hey, I know you think you're Native American, but you're actually a Lamanite connected to these Nephites. And it sort of encourages them to set aside their Native American history as secondary to the church's history. It gives them. I grew up in the church, you know, as a young adult. I spent most of my time in Ohio and a lot of our membership were Native American and Hispanic people.

Bill [01:18:38] And they all referred to themselves as Lamanites. And I, I, on some level, I'm a little bothered by the church going in amongst groups in which it sabotages their own narrative, their own narrative about them and their people and doesn't really clean the air by coming forward and saying, hey, yes, we've set up these two family history centers and one never got done. But we set up these two family history centers and somehow we need to convey to these people that, that we have a different idea about who they are than they have about who they are.

Bill [01:19:16] And it sort of seems tricky, sort of seems deceptive to go in amongst these peoples, collect their family history data with an ultimate goal in the church's head of like I know these people aren't who they think they are. They're something a little different. And that seems unhealthy on some level.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:19:36] Yeah. No. And you're not wrong. And some of my sources, I ended up having sources in Oklahoma who knew. So strange that I knew people connected. There were some very strong feelings exactly along the lines of what you described. They didn't really talk about that so much in the article. They alluded to it, but exactly what you said, Bill. Extremely strong feelings about we, we do not want this here because of the past. So.

Bill [01:19:58] Excellent. Well, I want to say, I say thank you to both of you. Thank you, rfm. Thank you, Rebecca. You can find Radio Free Mormon and his coverage of Tim Ballard and our at if you just look for the playlist on YouTube of Radio Free Mormon. And Rebecca has covered this LDS giving machine story and other good work on the Mormonish podcast. Mormonish podcast, is it dot com?

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:20:22] Yeah.

Bill [01:20:22] Look at that. Sweet. We're going to move on here to our final conversation. I've set this up as a panel discussion. I want to talk for a moment about the land that the church owns. And we all know, as those who keep our ears to the ground in Mormonism, that the church does in fact, have a lot of land. But to the degree of how much they have, even I, and I think some of you were sort of surprised. And so we'll play a little video here to introduce, to introduce the topic.

The Mormon Church's Vast Land and Property Holdings

Bill [01:20:55] Good evening. I'm Bill Real. Tonight we bring to you a compelling report on the expansive land acquisitions made by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the LDS Church, sometimes known as the Mormon Church, both in the United States and globally. In recent weeks, news stories have broke showing the LDS Church buying up acre after acre after acre in Nebraska. But this isn't new. Over the past decade, we have seen stories of the LDS Church buying up large portions of land and property in Nebraska, Florida, Hawaii, Washington, and essentially every other state. And even overseas, to the point where the Mormon Church owns the most valuable property portfolio in America.

Bill [01:21:49] With at least 15,700,000,000 in holdings in Florida alone, the LDS Church is poised to become the largest private landowner and to even create a city, raising questions about the church's intentions and its impact on local and national landscapes. They have even outpaced and outbid notable figures like Bill Gates in this battle over land.

Bill [01:22:21] But the inquiry doesn't stop there, as the purchasing continues, prompting questions over the church's overarching strategy. Tonight, we'll delve into the possible Motives behind the LDS Church's extensive land portfolio? Does it serve a religious purpose or is there a larger agenda at play?

Bill [01:22:42] And more importantly, what are the potential implications for the local communities in the nation at large? Our panel will discuss the ethics of religious organizations such as the LDS Church owning vast amounts of land. Should religious institutions be permitted to hold such extensive real estate? And what could be the long term consequences?

Bill [01:23:08] Stay with us as we unravel the mystery behind the LDS Church's land acquisitions, exploring their impact and the broader questions they raise. So let me throw up a slide here. The Mormon Church owns the most valuable property portfolio in America.

Bill [01:23:33] This is a religion, this is a non profit that owns so much of the country that outside of perhaps the US Government, it essentially owns the most value in the land that it has. Not necessarily the most land, but the land that's got the highest value at 15,700,000,000 in holdings.

Bill [01:24:02] Another one here. The Mormon Church will soon own more private land. This was back in 2013. They probably have surpassed it by now. Owns more private land than anyone in Florida. And you can see there the the various colors on the left representing various types of property or land that they hold and on the right what percentage of each state that they hold. And often it's you know, 0.5 but in some places such as Florida I think it's 1.75. Utah 1.6.

Bill [01:24:32] My question for the three of you. The LDS Church owns the most valuable portfolio in America and is likely the largest private landowner in Florida. And they continue to purchase land meaning they will become one of if not the largest landholder in other states going forward as time moves on as well.

Bill [01:24:51] And is it appropriate for a religion or a non profit to own this much land and property? Your thoughts on the information when you first saw it and your thoughts on whether it's appropriate for a church to or a nonprofit to get this involved in public land ownership. Anybody?

RFM [01:25:14] Well, I think you missed one of the news articles that I saw the title on the headline on the news article that you didn't get the new the title was now is the Great Day of my Power. Okay, Everything that a Christian church should be doing, the LDS Church is not doing. Everything that a Christian church should not be doing the LDS Church is doing. And I meant to say those reversed and I hope I did and I didn't goof it up. But no, this is crazy. The Church is now playing Monopoly, which is a great analogy that you came up with, Bill.

RFM [01:25:48] This is what they're spending all their Time doing is buying and selling and laying waste. Their powers. They are playing Monopoly because they can. This is the attraction. This is the allure of money. And this is why one of the truest statements in all the Bible is that the love of money is the root of all evil. And along with that is that you cannot serve God and mammon. I used to wonder, how is it that you can't serve God in mammon? What's the problem? Can't you be financially motivated and still serve God? What the church is showing us, the LDS Church is showing us in real time, is that the Bible is true and that you cannot serve God in mammon. They've made their choice. They're going to serve mammon, and God is left at the curb. That's the way I'm seeing this.

Bill [01:26:40] Yeah. Thoughts from YouTube.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:26:42] Every time I read a headline about the church's news of the land, I think of a Holy Grail where it says huge tracks of land just everywhere. And I remember watching a documentary on Scientology years ago, before we were really aware of the holdings and the land holdings or any of it. And. And they talk about a similar trajectory. So much money that they didn't even really know what to do with it. They were buying buildings everywhere. And the buildings, I think they called them education centers. They were just kind of empty. There was nobody there. They were decked out, they were furnished, but there was nothing there. They didn't know what else to do, but they were buying up, you know, city centers, all kinds of land. So, you know, I just feel like maybe it's a trajectory. When churches get so out of control, so massive, what else is there to do?

Lauren Matthias [01:27:29] Yeah, Lauren, I'm still admittedly processing my opinion. I actually really value this panel and this discussion. I find it interesting. I'm still collecting facts, and I think I want to. I want to be the person right now that says to everyone out there listening and learning that, like, it's okay to not have too strong of an opinion. Right now. I am, like. I am, like, leaning back and I am listening. I think where my mind is right now, if you want to know. And maybe it's because of what I've been covering the past four to five years, which is, you know, Mormonism, doomsday preppers. I think a part of where my brain is right now is wondering what they believe. You know, we are the church. It is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

RFM [01:28:13] Right?

Lauren Matthias [01:28:13] This has always been about the last days, you know, from the naming of this church and I think where my brain is going is what are they thinking? Like what? You know, aren't they selling also in Missouri? Didn't we say that they're selling some land in Missouri? Adam on Day. Amen. So they're, they're selling the land that was Adam on Day almond territory. And now we're purchasing all of Florida and a bunch of land. And yeah, it could just be simply the fact that you have money, but I'm trying to think so. So why real estate? You know, is this, is this an extreme prepping pursuit?

Lauren Matthias [01:28:51] You know, the more land we own, the better. I don't know. I'm just throwing out some thoughts in my brain and I, I am going to simply say, I am listening, I am learning, I am fascinated. You guys have done some incredible journalism tonight, by the way, I want to say. And that's, that's where I am. I'm taking this in. I'm letting it simmer, I guess you could say.

RFM [01:29:13] Well, I think you raised a great point about the fantastic journalism you heard from us tonight. No, seriously, I think you raised a great point about bringing up their selling Missouri. So if we didn't already think this, and I did, which is that this is simply another of many investment strategies. They're wealthy enough, they can buy up all this real estate. Real estate has always been a very good long term conservative strategy because the value is always going to go up over time, regardless of what may happen in the short term, over time, it's always going to go up. And the fact that they're selling Missouri, I mean, come on, guys, it's obviously an investment.

Balancing Religious Mission with Business Interests

RFM [01:29:53] This, this has no religious connotations. There's nothing about God in this. It's all mammon. And you also raise the point that you're thinking about all this prepper stuff. What is the church doing? What is it interested in? All I observe is that while they're buying up all this land and all these other investments and stocks and bonds and everything else, right. They are completely ignoring the festering corruption which is within its own church body.

RFM [01:30:19] They don't say anything about it at general conference. They give no warnings to people. They are content to allow it to continue to grow and to have these stories happen that you reported on Lauren. And all I can do is observe that and from that draw the obvious inference that they're more interested in investing than they are in the.

RFM [01:30:43] Purity is not the right word, but I'll use it anyway. The purity of their own body and keeping such harmful elements. It's not Just purity and law of chastity stuff. It's keeping actively harmful elements out of it and making sure everybody knows not to have anything to do with it.

Bill [01:30:59] Yeah, I just want to know, you know, Rebecca, you mentioned Scientology. If we were, as, as all of us are either Mormons or ex Mormons sitting here having this conversation, if, if I was putting up a three minute video where I talked about how Scientology owned the most valuable, was the most valuable land holder in the United States, wouldn't we be a little nervous? Wouldn't we be going like, ooh, Scientology, if the Jehovah's Witnesses were the ones that we were covering and they were the largest land holder in Florida? And I want to put up this next slide. If, if the Scientologists or the Jehovah's Witnesses were building an entire city in Florida that would populate a half million people, would we be going, ooh, we probably shouldn't do that.

Bill [01:31:42] And yet, as Latter Day Saints or former Latter Day Saints, we sort of, we sort of don't feel as nervous about our high demand fundamentalist religion as we do other high demand fundamentalist religions. And I, I am a little, I'm a little skeptical or cautious about what all that means. And, and you pointed out, Lauren, like, what's the long game here? And part of me, I hear this story all the time when we have this conversation around this particular issue and the amount of money that the church has accumulated. But if Jesus comes back in the way that we as Latter Day Saints or former Latter Day Saints have been taught that he's going to come back.

Bill [01:32:18] He comes out of the sky and he goes to Jerusalem and he goes to New Zion or New Jerusalem here in the Americas. It seems as though the whole world for the millennium is going to sort of know that that's Jesus.

Bill [01:32:30] Governments are gonna bend their knee to, to the Savior of the world coming back. And hence it seems like if he needed during the millennium to accumulate tons of land, and I can't really come up with why it seems like he wouldn't necessarily need the church to do it on the front end, that, that he would be the Savior of the world returning and living amongst the people for a thousand years, it seems as though he would have a plan or his heavenly Father would, to get something done. And so I'm, I'm sort of with rfm that this doesn't feel like a religious play. This feels like some sort of way to essentially diversify one's portfolio.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:33:10] I have some thoughts on that. I was in Florida to your first point, Bill, I was in Florida over Thanksgiving and talking to the people there. They sort of made jokes about, oh, your Mormons are former Mormons. They own most of Florida. You're right. It's seen as extremely innocuous because Mormons are so friendly and what could be going on.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:33:28] The opposite point of view is that I've had noticed some things on social media, tick tocks and things where people are starting to be aware. There's one woman in particular, I can't think of her channel, but she said, do you guys realize what is happening? You know, and she's talking about some of these planned communities, some of these cities, all the land. So I feel like people are going to start paying attention.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:33:47] I feel like, how can you not when you start seeing these headlines? I also agree with rfm and I did talk to you again, my best friend, accounting professor Spencer Anderson, about some of the tax ramifications. Of course, these are investments. Of course they're always going to go up. Why are they selling Missouri? The prices are great, right? Too bad for all the people that bought land in Missouri thinking that that's where they were going to live during the second coming. That was a cold slap in the face, you know, pour water on you. But, you know, and of course, he explained it very simplistic to simplistically to me, but they're not paying taxes on the land.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:34:20] As long as they're saying, we're going to build a chapel on it, we're going to build a church building, it was set aside for religious purposes. Even when they do hold on to it long enough and eventually sell it, there's a reduced capital gains. And I'm sure other accountants can correct me in the chat, but according to him in our conversation, there's a, there's a benefit that a religious organization is going to enjoy for holding land. There's a benefit while they hold it and then there's a benefit when they sell it and develop it. So I'm sure that's part of it.

Lauren Matthias [01:34:49] I also just want to throw out influence in politics in these states as well. As a reporter, I was a reporter in my, my career was in Utah and Idaho. So I have a good idea on how influential the LDS Church can be in those two states as a reporter and in the government and how they influence certain things. And I, I'm, my brain is going, you know, around and around that too. You know, how are they influencing politics and anything else going on in these certain states when they are owning so much of the state. I think you may also thinking about.

Bill [01:35:32] Great point. Because some of this land they buy is ranches, for instance, and other sort of businesses and farms. And a lot of it tends to be in agriculture. But there was high rise buildings and offices. As long as you're putting your people into those as the cattle ranchers, as the business people, it seems like on a smaller level you would have influence over how those people feel about issues that are important to you to go one way or the other. And so I think you make a great point. Lauren is.

Bill [01:36:04] And I, I had a question here. I didn't prep you guys with all the questions, but one of them sort of goes along with that. How does the LDS church balance its religious mission with its business and real estate endeavors? It is a church, that's its main function, but really the church part of it is at this point when, you know, all of the business ventures that it has under its wings and all the land and property under its wings, all the, all the various facets of it, it becomes clear that the church part of this thing, this corporation, is really probably the smallest piece of the pie.

RFM [01:36:39] Yeah, we're reaching a critical crossroads where the truth of the church is not going to be as it has been for many, many decades, determined by the growth and size of its membership, but by its wealth.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:36:51] Yeah, I agree with that. It's a prosperity gospel thing. Members, I believe, feel ownership somehow in all of this until they go to the bishop and ask for help. Then they'll probably get more of a realistic view of how it really works. But no, I think you're absolutely right. Rfm and I would say when you say, you know, it's a church, it's a corporation with a religious arm, and that's even how it's sort of structured in the articles of incorporation. It's a corporation with a religious army. Disarm. So. But most people don't understand that. I think they're starting to understand it. I remember the first time I really started to notice when I saw that the church was bidding with Bill Gates on land.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:37:27] And I thought the church is bidding with Bill Gates. And then the church outbid Bill Gates. I mean, if that doesn't tell you where things are at, that's a wake up call right there.

Bill [01:37:38] Yeah. And you know, Bill Gates isn't buying the land to, to put a charity on it, right?

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:37:42] No, he'll pay taxes. That's the difference. He'll pay taxes. Right. So all this land is out of play. All the tax benefit just Services, goods, people out of play. You have to look at that when somebody is monopolizing everything.

Bill [01:37:55] And I tried to do a ton of research as I read, you know, 30 articles on this, because it all started with last week, the church bought, I don't remember what it was, 20,000 acres in Nebraska or something like that. And I knew that there were past stories in years past about the church buying pieces of Florida and, And being a major landholder in the United States and having a high value. And so I went chasing down all the articles that I could, and I tried to find some of the personal stories of how they were maintaining these cattle ranches or how they were running the businesses on the land.

Bill [01:38:27] And most of the feedback I got back was positive. So in the church's favor. Most of what I read was that the folks local to those areas were quite happy with how the church was maintaining the land and operating the businesses that they were on it. But I'm always hesitant knowing that the church usually has some sort of long game and they might do those things now, but you don't have any sort of guarantee that 20 years from now or 30 years from now, when it becomes convenient to whatever their mission is to move the land or to start using it differently.

RFM [01:39:03] And.

Bill [01:39:03] And so I think time will tell to some degree how this story pans out. But I. I'm deeply intrigued by a religion in the United States owning anything near the amount of land it would take to even be part of a relevant conversation. Anything else from you guys?

RFM [01:39:24] No. We have seen this play out before where when Mormons move into states, there's a lot of cheering and rejoicing and, oh, the poor Mormons. And then after a while, things turn sour. It's like Jeff Goldblum says in the second Jurassic park movie. First comes the ooing and the eying, then comes the running and the screaming.

Bill [01:39:42] Yeah, it's all fun and games in the beginning, isn't it?

Lauren Matthias [01:39:46] I think it just is an interesting parallel to, To. To the history of the LDS Church where we were, you know, it is true that the. The LDS Church and leaders were, you know, they. They were driven from, you know, Nauvoo and their home and they came to Utah. But then in a twist of events that the. The government didn't want to make Utah a state because it was concerning that. Here's Brigham Young, who is the governor and the religious leader, and, and what's going on in, In Utah, or it wasn't Utah then. It was quite concerning. And as you've pointed out, I think it would also concern the government. Right now, here we are a couple hundred years later, a little bit less than that, and now they're buying all the land everywhere and they're pretty much buying up the country. What's going on with the Mormons?

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:40:42] And it's not new. You're absolutely right, Lauren. It's not new. If you do look at church history, that's pretty much how they operated everywhere. They'd move in, they build the temple, they'd buy a land around it right back to, you know, and then they were run out because people, you know, people were upset about what was happening. So I think it's only a matter of time before this pattern, it starts to get some more attention and people get concerned. I mean, look at the stock portfolio and the incredible wealth, not including the land holdings. We didn't know anything really. We knew there was some money. Then here comes David Nelson, you know, oh, you didn't report your money. You know, now they're having to report it. It's, it's, it's a sizable thing to try to kind of keep the lid on this kind of wealth and, and assets and you can't.

Bill [01:41:26] Yeah, I'll, I'll tell you, as one who has covered a couple of stories this year on land deeds, this might be the most important story on land deeds that we have to cover. So I appreciate each of you joining with me to have a conversation. I, I think some of these stories, Lauren, the crime stories that you covered tonight are certainly important to all of us to be aware of sort of the atrocities of violence that can occur when people are permitted because again we have freedom of religion, permitted to believe whatever they want. But sometimes beliefs can lead to harm.

Bill [01:42:03] RFM as you were covering the stories, Rebecca, as you Talked about the LDs giving machines, but I think in terms of long term safety and security of our country, we ought to be concerned about anybody who seems to be buying up significant pieces of land to the point where like again, we're having this sort of conversation around it. I appreciate each of you tonight for what you added to the show and I appreciate your part in this panel discussion, folks. We really appreciate each of you joining us on our news program and I hope you'll join us next week as we continue to explore the latest happenings in the Latter Day Saint community. Lauren, rfm Rebecca, it Thank you again and have a great night. Folks who have joined us, thank you as well.

Rebecca (Mormon Stories) [01:42:46] Thank you.

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