Welcome and Guest Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's May 19, 2025 and today we're answering the question what is soft swinging? Do Mormons soft swing? And really what we're doing is we are launching our review on Mormon Stories podcast of a new episode of the Secret Lives of or as I should say season of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. It's probably the number one show on Hulu right now. We covered season one back when it was airing and we're ready for season two. So a couple things spoil. We're gonna try. Well, spoiler alert in the sense that we're going to be talking about episodes one and maybe two and we're, you know, there's a chance some of us have seen more, some the of.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] Some of us have seen the whole season two. We're going to try not to give spoilers past episodes one and or two, but we can't promise it. But we're going to try. But also like, you know, go watch episodes one and two before you watch this episode if you want, but we're going to get into it and what we do as kind of our specialty on Mormon Stories is we try to give the in depth Mormon angle an in depth Mormon analysis that other shows just simply can't do. So that's kind of our expertise and that's what we're going to be doing today. We are live streaming, so we welcome our live stream audience.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] We encourage y' all to subscribe to this channel to like this episode and then please comment and ask questions freely. We've got Julia moderate moderating the comments and she's going to star your comments or questions. We really appreciate super chats if you want to support our program and if you want to make sure we see your questions or comments, the best way to do that is through a super chat donation. But as always, Mormon Stories exists through the generosity of just our normal monthly donors that donate through MormonStories.org so thanks to you, our donors who make this possible and make it so we don't have to do product placements or ads, you know, specialized ads or any of that reading on air ads.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] We try to minimize all of that. Thanks again to our donors. Anyway, it's ready to begin. Good morning everyone. And we're excited to have two familiar faces joining us back on the show. The first is Chelsea Homer. Hey, Chelsea.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:33] Hi.

Chelsea Homer [00:02:34] Good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] So I picked Chelsea because she's amazing and also because she leads Lost and Found Club. And it's a really important group for post Mormon women. That's my way of describing it. She's super plugged in to the secret lives of thousands of Mormon and ex Mormon wives. But, Chelsea, why don't you introduce yourself? Because you'll probably do a better job than me.

Chelsea Homer [00:02:58] Yeah. So I'm Chelsea Homer. I came on John's show a few years ago shortly after leaving the church. It was a very emotional experience in this chair. I've been back a few times since, but I still started a Facebook group called Faith Journey Meetups. You might be familiar, it's for women and gender expansive people who are deconstructing. It was meant to be a meetup hub, and then with COVID it kind of turned into an online sounding board. And so a few years ago, a few friends and I started a club called Lost and Found Club. So it's a local Utah nonprofit. We work really, really hard to provide support, community, and resources for so many ex Mormons, both here in Utah and abroad.

Chelsea Homer [00:03:38] We do monthly events. Just this week, we hosted a big watch party. Sorry. For the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. First two episodes of the new season. Alyssa was there in my backyard. It was so, so much fun. So we do several events a month. We have an online discord hub for we. Yeah, probably 10, 15 events a month. We're doing a really, really big girls camp at the very end of the year, September and October. We still have tickets for that if you want to come join us in the mountains at Camp Tracy. Anyway, we have a lot of fun, so, yes, I just affiliate with a lot. A lot of ex Mormons every single month.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] How do people register for girls camp?

Chelsea Homer [00:04:15] On our website, LostAndFound Club. You can find us on Instagram and you can see the links for all of those things.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] And I've just heard only really positive things. So please consider attending if you fit the criteria and if you're interested, yes,

Chelsea Homer [00:04:29] we would love to have you. We have a good mix of regulars, people who come to all of our events, and newcomers. And so it's just a great way to make friends and share resources and get support.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] And you're the one, Chelsea Homer, who has seen the entire season two.

Chelsea Homer [00:04:43] I did. I binged it in 24 hours because I'm a freak and I couldn't stop.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:04:48] As you should.

Chelsea Homer [00:04:50] So, yeah. Anyway, I'll try not to give too many spoilers today.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] All right, well, thanks for coming, Chelsea. And as you probably already have seen, our second guest for today back on the show is The Alyssa Woodback. Hey, Alyssa. Hello. Tell us a bit about yourself again. Remind us who you are.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:05:07] My name is Alyssa. I also love reality tv, which is why I love talking about it. I'm a writer. A lot of things that I focus on are about the intersection of Mormonism, ex Mormonism and being a woman in the world right now. My website has updated publications on it. I have an essay coming out, an exponent later this summer that talks about basically the experience of being like a Mormon mom and an ex Mormon mom. So that's my main contribution to this conversation. I'm also super pregnant, so I feel like all the women in this show have been pregnant right now. So I am one of the, one of the girls in that way.

Chelsea Homer [00:05:46] You're channeling the Mormon.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:05:48] It's only my second. It's not like my third. So that would have really worked well with, with Whitney's commentaries. But that's okay. We'll just have the second baby instead and still, still relate.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] I love it. Okay, well, welcome Melissa. So glad to have you as always. We, we had advertised that Haley Rawl from Girls Camp Podcast was going to join us. Haley had a last minute emergency. So we send our love to Haley and all of her people and we, we hope to have a special guest though on this episode. She's just going to be arriving at a moment to be turbaned, to be determined. So anyway, let's go ahead and jump in.

John Dehlin [00:06:29] And so we've got season two. You know, most of the, all of the cast from season one has returned with a few new people. And I'll just say also as a disclaimer, before these episodes had even dropped, I knew we wanted to do this episode. So I reached out to y'. All. We were all thumbs up and I went and read the descriptions and three of the four descriptions, if I'm remembering right, mentioned soft swinging. I've actually done a full episode on soft swinging or on swinging and Mormonism that I have not released and I don't know if I'll ever release it. It was with Natasha Helfer, but it turned out that soft swinging wasn't even a major theme in the first episode or two.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] It was kind of lightly touched on. So we are going to talk about it today. It's not clickbait, but I also don't want to lose track of the really crucial themes that even just episode one had. So really, just to start with, any observations y' all want to make just about like season two, the new cast of characters, how y' all were feeling about the old versus the new. Were you even excited about a season two or were you like, like, like me? It was just kind of like, I don't know if I'm up for another season at all because there's so much drama and it's so intense. So, Chelsea, you go first.

Chelsea Homer [00:07:57] Yeah, well, I, I was very excited because, like, listen, one of my favorite things to do is dissect religion and politics through the vehicle of pop culture. And so I saw a lot of us on the screen on season one. And so season two, I was very excited. They left on a big cliffhanger with Jen and Zach. So I think I was most excited and anticipating their storyline, which they jumped right into that. As far as the woman, I follow a lot of them on social media, so you kind of get behind the scenes before the season even started. But yeah, I was very, very excited.

Chelsea Homer [00:08:27] Just the very opening scene of like, dear Henley, Father, Father, followed by expletives and like them coming out of the water and they're like baptismal sexy looking dresses and like the, the splicing of the temple every 10 seconds. Like, it's so, so campy. And I, for that reason, I just was obsessed because you just see so much of our backyards, like Fear Factory, some really common places here in Utah. And so it just kind of feels like home. And seeing that on a reality television show is just really, really fun and exciting for me.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] Yeah, you all probably saw this in the notes that I shared. Like every single, the B roll for every single segue is like BYU Mormon Temple Angel Moroni. Like, I'm just thinking the church must be pooping bricks, you know what I mean? Like to have this type of content constantly associated with, frankly, the church's most sacred or iconic symbols. Right?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:09:20] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] Yeah. All right, Elisa, what were your original thoughts about season two?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:09:25] Also thrilled. So ready. And then as soon as it started and we see the new intro with again like the sexy baptism, I was like, yes, we are. I'm locked in now for this next season. I think what's super interesting about this show is, and I think there's a lot of reality TV in general, at least some, is that it is like pitched as this vapid, like guilty pleasure type watch. But especially here, there's some real intense, life changing type things that are being discussed and real traumas and I think. And there's, you know, I think we can discuss maybe the ethics of that or how that's portrayed.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:10:03] But I do think that's a really Interesting element of this show that also feels very Mormon is just that even though we're seeing and people like to make fun of it, like, oh, it's like that salacious Utah show, the actual conversations that they're having are so real and I think is like Chelsea was saying, really representative of a lot of Mormon women's experiences.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] 1,000%. Like, again, it is vapid, it is obnoxious, it is ridiculous, it is even. We'll talk about this later. Maybe even unethical and how exploitative and potentially disruptive it is to these people's individual lives and their families. And I'm just like, major theme check. Major theme check. Major theme check. Like, I probably had 10 major theme checks in in episode one. Do you agree, Chelsea?

Chelsea Homer [00:10:53] Yeah, yeah. Episode one is, like, jam packed. I think they really wanted you to stay longer, so they really filled a lot of storylines and just left a lot hanging from the first episode.

Smashing the Mormon Patriarchy in Season Two

John Dehlin [00:11:03] So let me ask you all this. The one of the things that they start out talking about is sort of like this idea of smashing the Mormon patriarchy, but also that they are that season one potentially has been significantly helpful in sort of changing Mormonism and or Mormon culture, either to make Mormons seem less weird or to help loosen up our culture. Let me just start with that topic and maybe, Chelsea, I'll throw this to you first. Like, if you were to say, yeah, season one really was influential in giving Mormons a better name or a worse name, or like, you're seeing Mormons women show their shoulders more or drink whatever more or hot tub while drinking alcohol more or whatever. Do you think season one has been influential in changing Mormon culture?

Chelsea Homer [00:12:08] I don't know. I think it's too soon to really tell if it's changing anything on a larger organization standard, but I think in the micro orthodoxy levels, absolutely. I was listening to an interview from one of the executive producers who was saying he really hoped this series would be like, a touchstone for the harder conversations of faith and family and religion. And having deconstructed, I can really see, like, it's really, really helpful to have a container like a movie, like a show. For me, it was John Oliver to really explore and get permission to have new ideas, to want more. And so in that way, I can see the show being incredibly helpful if you were, like, in a marriage with, like, Jack and Zen where there's a lot of, like, patriarchal forces at play, that it would be a lot easier to talk about their marriage before bringing it home into yours.

Chelsea Homer [00:12:57] And so in that way, I think it is really helpful. I think it's also just, at the bare minimum, just inspiring to see someone who can take a belief or a religion or a marriage that is harmful and say no or set boundaries around that.

Chelsea Homer [00:13:12] As far as, like, smashing the patriarchy, I don't think anything like that is happening. A large criticism that I've seen in the show is that people talking about how these women are able to do things that many people with less privilege have been excommunicated for. And I think that's a conversation that's worth having if we're going to talk about anything remotely regarding, like, smashing patriarchy. And yeah, I just. I. I kind of wish that they would be. A lot of the criticism has been very surface level. I think for it to smash patriarchy, it has to get systemic.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] So, yeah, it takes a little more than a reality TV show to smash millennia of institutionalized patriarchy. Alyssa, let's ask you really quickly. Do you have any additional thoughts on so far, this show's impact on Mormon culture?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:14:02] Yeah, I mean, I think it in a similar way because a lot of these very common experiences are being discussed. I think women are able to hopefully, you know, see themselves in some of these stories and be able to, like Chelsea was saying, maybe be able to articulate and criticize another relationship before they're able to talk about their own. Or maybe be able to see, like, oh, I can see these women who are, like, financially successful, things like that. However, I do think that's kind of like the main. Every time they talk about smashing the patriarchy, that's the main angle that they're going at it with is like, see where the breadwinners were able to financially provide for our children and our families, which I think is a big step.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:14:39] And I think that's something that is, you know, a part of Mormonism is not. Was women not participating in, like, the workforce. However, there's so, so much about patriarchy that is still existing in the show, and there's still a lot of, like, even just the way the women will be arguing with each other. And like, Chelsea was mentioning a little while ago how a lot of the men's stories are still being really centered. I think there's patriarchy still at the forefront, and I think a step is a step, and that's awesome. And I think it's great for these women to kind of start dissecting it, but in no way would I say patriarchy is being fully deconstructed by this show.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, Guess what? Our special guest has arrived. And how fun it was. Like, I work, like, a couple doors down from Natasha Helfer. Therapist Natasha Helfer. You know, we. What's that?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:15:36] Movie star Natasha.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Yes. Movie star. I do. I. I work a couple doors and we, we know. We communicate regularly over text. And lo and behold, Natasha Helfer shows up in episode three. Natasha Helfer, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:50] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:15:51] John, what's it like to be an international TV star? Wow.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:56] I don't know if I would call it that exactly for a five minute cameo, but it's fun. It was really fun.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] So for y' all who have seen episode three, Natasha appears as a therapist to Mikayla. Yeah. So we won't give spoilers there, but, Natasha, I'm so glad you could join us today.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:14] I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I think I'm supposed to be looking that way.

Chelsea Homer [00:16:18] Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:18] Sometimes I want to look at you. Hi.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] Conversationally. I mean, we're trying to smash the patriarchy, so look where they are.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:27] Okay. Oh, we've, We've.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] Oh, sorry.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:29] We have.

John Dehlin [00:16:30] We have broken the F barrier. I mean, with secret lives, aren't they saying the F bomb like every three minutes? So language warning. We may swear.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:39] Last time it was just. God damn it. So I'm really proud of you.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] Thank you. Thank you. She's proud of me. So, Natasha, are you. Are you even watching Secret Lies, Mormon Wives, other than where do you appear on it?

Natasha Helfer [00:16:51] No, I. I definitely watched it. I wasn't really sure when I was gonna come in, so I watched season one going, okay, I think I'm going to be in here somewhere. And I wasn't, and that was fine. And then I realized they saved that clip for season two. So, yes, I've been watching all of it.

Soft Swinging and Non-Monogamy in Mormon Culture

John Dehlin [00:17:07] All right, well, okay, well, let's see. So there's so much we could talk about today. Thanks for coming, Natasha. I think the first thing that we're talking about and we kind of teased it is soft swinging. And. And again, it's weird because it's really not a deep emphasis in the first couple episodes at least, but it's also how they're really teasing all of this. So I think it's just worth sort of getting out in the open.

John Dehlin [00:17:38] Like, is Mormon swinging a thing? Is this just something that happened to these, you know, four or five or six women and their husbands? Or is this something that actually is not just existing, but even, like semi prevalent either in faithful Mormonism or in ex Mormon or in both. And also, even though, Natasha, I think you have the most experience, and I even told people that I did an episode with you that we haven't even released yet about swinging specifically. Chelsea, let's start with you. Like, is this something is soft swinging and. Or swinging a Mormon or an ex Mormon thing? In your experience?

Chelsea Homer [00:18:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Not in your personal experience?

Chelsea Homer [00:18:21] Yeah, I guess just being interfacing with a lot. A lot of post Mormons every single month. These are conversations that a lot of people are having. Like in that rubber band that you're deconstructing with Joseph Smith involves marriage and sexuality. And so in that deconstruction process, marriage is also on that altar to be dissected. And so these conversations that these women are having on these shows and things coming out sideways is something you definitely see that's very prevalent in post Mormon spaces. For sure.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] Very prevalent.

Chelsea Homer [00:18:52] And the spaces I run in. Yes. But I can't say this is all anecdotal. I can't say, like, sweeping, you know,

John Dehlin [00:18:59] so you and I, and I'm not trying to be like shock jock or anything, but did I hear you say that in the. In the friendships and the communities that you are aware of, non monogamy is very prevalent.

Chelsea Homer [00:19:13] I guess, hinging on that word.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:19:14] Very.

Chelsea Homer [00:19:14] It is prevalent. It is something that we're all. Yeah. Talking about quite a bit, I guess, to understand the larger context. One of my friends, Courtney, Kendra, called the Mormon Church a sex cult. And I don't think I truly understood what that meant because I knew that the, you know, LDS founders were predatory in their sexual behaviors. But I didn't really understand until leaving and then starting this community building where I saw, like, how we have sexually severed ourselves as a people. And in doing so, like, we, you know, there's abstinence, there's purity, culture, there's so much confessing and shame. And so we're harboring all of this and then we're trying to be close in community.

Chelsea Homer [00:19:56] And I would say this intimacy and navigating consensual sex and stuff is probably the biggest barrier for me and my experience of just trying to have community care when sex is involved, because we have never seen that modeled because it's been so harmful. I know at one point I think Taylor said something like, oh, if we would have just followed the church standards, then we would be avoiding this drama. But I disagree. And I think it's because a lot of people have been following these standards where it's just coming out sideways. And I think that's kind of what happens is there's not a lot of community care.

Chelsea Homer [00:20:27] We're all learning as we go. So that's why I'm saying it's kind of pervasive in that we're just all dissecting our own marriages in real time and opening is an option.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] So let's just pursue this a bit and then I'll bring the other, you know, listen, Natasha on so, so like I almost wonder, there's a way to look at this where it's just like, oh, it's 2025 and people all over the United States in middle America are experimenting with non monogamy. I don't know that like if you did average, if you did a poll of like the average middle class American are have you engaged in ethical non monogamy or non monogamy in some way?

John Dehlin [00:21:10] I wonder if Mormon post Mormonism would actually have a statistically higher prevalence because I do have never Mormon friends that are like opening your marriage. That's crazy. You know, like, I don't get a sense of. And maybe I'm too close to it, but I'm not. I think it might be more prevalent in Mormon sex Mormonism than anywhere else. And maybe it's because things are so dysfunctional or just it's the way the culture's developed or maybe it's our polygamy, polygamous roots, I don't know. But like Chelsea, if you can speak on behalf of the many people you've talked to to the extent that you can, what is it that that takes people or Mormons or ex Mormons from.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] We've been messed up sexually, which I agree we're very, a very sexually dysfunctional people. What is it that takes them from that to like, I know, let's open up our marriage, you know what I mean? Like, why that, why non monogamy in your. If you even have any sense?

Chelsea Homer [00:22:09] I guess I can just speak from personal experience because I don't want to like bring anyone else into this conversation. I mean, when you're getting married, oftentimes in a Mormon marriage is at a very young age and it's on the foundation of the church. And so like for Nick and I, that was something that like it was this foundation of if you go to the temple, do all these things, then you will have a happy marriage. And clearly once you start to deconstruct, like that's just not happening. So when you deconstruct the church, you also start to say like, oh, did we get married because of the Church, because the church kind of fed us these values and this timeline.

Chelsea Homer [00:22:44] You cannot have sex before you get married. So oftentimes people will rush that because it's a very natural progression and to be intimate when you're close with somebody that you love. And so just being in a very monogamous marriage where you kind of are trying to explore sexually, I don't want to go into too many details, because I have been very graphic about my honeymoon in this chair with you.

Chelsea Homer [00:23:07] Several years ago, we had a very, very horrible, like, Mormon honeymoon. You know, we were not educated. We didn't know how to receive or give pleasure of any kind. And I think you just start to get into these, like, habits and these grooves start to form, these roles of, like, pursuer, rejecter, all of these things. And so sometimes I can see in these conversations when you're talking about sex that it might be helpful to have somebody who hasn't been in this situation in the trenches with you while you're navigating this very, very Mormon marriage, where sex is always coming out sideways. And so I can see why people naturally want to open up, because they think maybe they resent that they didn't get options before getting married, or that they feel like somebody could bring some fresh eyes into this situation that is just kind of very traumatic.

Chelsea Homer [00:24:01] And it's really hard to navigate through therapy. And so, anyway, I just. I can see why it's an option for people because it's just really, really hard to navigate Mormon marriages that are monogamous, where you're just trying to claw your way out together, you know?

John Dehlin [00:24:16] Love it. Melissa, thoughts you want to add?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:24:19] Yeah, I mean, I think from just anecdotally as well, I just know that a lot of people. That's something that people will experiment with and will try. And, you know, maybe the main reasons that I've heard people say will be along lines of what Chelsea was saying, like, people are getting married young. I was listening to interview where Miranda McWhorter was talking about a little bit, and she just mentioned casually, like, we were in the middle of a faith crisis. We were. Felt like there was so much for us to deconstruct.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:24:47] We had. We chose to get married really young, and then now we feel maybe a little bit stuck. And this was kind of what. What she was suggesting or implying or that, like, once you really literally marry somebody and you're committed to them forever, I think once you start deconstructing the church, the stakes of that feel really high. I think within Mormonism, marriage is so casual. And just the idea of eternity, which is, which is kind of ironic, is really casual. And I think once you start deconstructing even just the concept of choosing one person forever or living with the same person forever, I think the stakes of that start to feel a little bit more severe.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:25:25] And so people, I think, are looking for ways to also be able to stay in the relationship and be in this happy relationship and also figure out, explore things that they never had the chance to before that they. I think a big part of the post Mormon experience, at least for me and the people that I've talked with is like, not just pertaining to sex, but pertain to everything, Coffee example, is I was never allowed to do this. Is this even something that I like? And I think a big part of deconstruction, period is being able to ask the questions, is this something that I'm interested in or not interested in?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:25:58] And the hard part, I think about marriage and then monogamous marriage is you're not able to perhaps ask those questions in the same way. Or at least that's like the perception is now I think sexuality is so individual, but now your sexuality is tied to a person and usually there's kids. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] So you don't want to disrupt your

Alyssa Witbeck [00:26:18] kids lives, the marriage. Anyway. I do think that so much of the Mormon deconstruction process is just being able to ask questions and figuring out, you know, once the whole world is on the table for you, which pieces are you going to pick back up again? And sex is a part of that. And it seems like that is a way I basically, okay, moral of the story though, I think, I think everybody that deconstructs Mormonism has to figure out what to do about sex because that is a huge problem for everybody. Purity culture is so intense. And then you have to figure out, how am I going to go forward with that?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:26:50] And some people will learn how to figure out sex more with, with themselves or with their partner or opening up. I think that's just a struggle that every Mormon and ex Mormon is forced to confront because our culture is so dysfunctional sexually. And so I think that's just like a common way that people have to heal them, heal themselves from the, the sexual trauma.

John Dehlin [00:27:12] Or destroy themselves.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:27:13] Or destroy themselves. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] Or destroy their marriage.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:27:16] Tension, perhaps. Going in is like, okay, I need to, I need to figure out what I'm going to do. And unfortunately also as we see in this show, when you don't have sex education and you just jump into soft swinging and again, Part of this interview with Miranda that I was listening to and that Taylor has mentioned before is there is no conversation that they were having. They really did not have the tools to be able to swing like ethically or, or in a way that they were like having healthy conversations with their partner or setting boundaries or figuring out ways that like, did you like this?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:27:50] Miranda was like, I never even essentially. Basically saying, like, we never even considered if it was something enjoyable or not. It was just, oh no, now it snowballed and now we're here. And I think that also is so Mormon is being unable. Even when we're trying to like be more sexually open, we still don't know how to talk about it. And that feels very Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] You pointed that, you pointed me to that interviewer, Miranda. What's the YouTube channel that she was on?

Natasha Helfer [00:28:17] Files.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:28:17] What it's called the Vial file.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] And she's just basically like, yeah, bunch of couples. We were getting together regularly. We started drinking a lot. And then like I think she said, some of the husbands started asking some of the wives to kiss. And then it just kind of, while everyone's kind of intoxicated, just people started exploring and you know, again, no education, no discussion of ethics, not super careful. And then just stuff starts happening and snowballing. And so anyway, Natasha, let's bring you in. So you are not just a marriage and family therapist.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] You have not only dedicated 20 plus years to working with Mormon and ex Mormon populations, you are also a licensed sex therapist. And as I understand it, in your practice for at least a decade or more, you've worked heavily with ex Mormon and ex Mormon couples that have explored ethical non monogamy. First question is, I know we don't have a lot of data on this, but is it your impression, as I asked Chelsea, that there might be a higher prevalence of experimentation with swinging and or nonmonogamy than sort of in the general population?

Natasha Helfer [00:29:27] I would not be surprised if that was the case. We do not have data to support that. E M is on the rise nationwide. It is also on the rise depending on your age group. Right. So I would say people who are 30 and below are much more to these kinds of relational structures, looking different than people 30 plus. So that's kind of just been my anecdotal experience.

Natasha Helfer [00:29:52] And I. And like Chelsea was saying, I think a lot of there's a difference between, you know, practicing E M and talking about E M. I think many, many people are talking about it, at least having the conversation. I run an E M group about twice A year navigating successful, educated em and without a doubt, probably about a third of the people that show up in those spaces have never tried it, have never done anything yet but are curious, have been having conversations together as a couple and they're being very intentional about if, if we would, if we would consider this, how would we go about it and getting the education and I think resources that are very helpful in this regard, even with, with what you just said. I mean, I have very strong opinions about this. E and M does not destroy marriages.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] It can.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:44] It does not. What destroys marriages is lack of communication, lack of prince understanding, sexual health principles, lack of consent. I am not okay blaming a particular lifestyle. I mean, monogamy ruins marriages then. I mean, we've got 50% of people who are getting, again, I wouldn't blame monogamy for that.

Chelsea Homer [00:31:06] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:31:06] It's, it's the underlying education, principles, communication and community support that trends to make relational structures succeed or not succeed. It doesn't matter what relational structure you're under. So that's kind of my, I guess my base opinion. If you want to have me talk a little bit about why I think that this is an interest, I can definitely go into that.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] Yeah. So, and of course, like you could say alcohol doesn't wreck lives, alcoholism wrecks lives. But there's some, you know, we had Brit Hart Hartley on recently and she gave an episode on like 10 things not to do if you're recently leaving the church. Her number one thing was don't immediately open up your marriage. And again, I know there's nuance, Natasha, with what you're saying, that, that it's, it's uneducated, uncareful, non monogamy or swinging that, that can be harmful to a relationship. But I do think that alcoholism is a thing and there's a certain number of people where if you introduce alcohol, doesn't matter how educated they are, how careful they are, they may just have a genetic disposition to just never really come back from something.

John Dehlin [00:32:21] And I just, what I've seen is even with people that go to a therapist first and learn all the rules and learn to communicate, I've still seen it potentially explode catastrophically in their family. So that's why I know you're more experienced than me. I want to be thoughtful about this, but I think it can be like gasoline to a flame. And a lot of times I see couples thinking it's going to fix a broken relationship. And again, I've seen it sometimes become like gasoline to a flame. Now, so you can Push back. You can tell me I'm full of girls.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:02] Yeah, no, I'm totally going to push back. I. I think this is a very Mormon conversation we're having right now. I think comparing anything sexual to alcohol is a very Mormon argument. I've been hearing that since homosexuality in the 1980s, so I'm not comfortable with that. Alcohol is a very different thing. It's a chemical substance that will change certain aspects of your chemistry.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:24] Sex is different than alcohol or drug usage. And yet we don't shame people for drinking alcohol anywhere near the ways we do in regards to exploring em or any other type of sexual kind of outside of monogamous structures.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:41] The way we really police this, and I would say even these kinds of discussions where you're being influential to hundreds of thousands of. Of people, you're leaving this kind of taste of like, oh, this is dangerous territory. And I think that in of itself is a shame response. I love Brittany Hartley. I love you. Neither one of you are a sex therapist. I'm not sure why you're giving advice to people around sexual issues when that's not your scope of practice.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] Wait, is it advice or just my impression?

Natasha Helfer [00:34:13] I think that you're having a lot of impact. I think Brittany has a lot of impact. I think all of these shows have a lot of impact. And you're having these discussions without an expert on board.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] You're on board today.

Natasha Helfer [00:34:24] I'm just talking about this other. This other conversation. Right. That you're referring to. And I do think that again, we ignore the depth of problematic relationships we already have before people are even bringing this to the discussion. It's kind of like being presented like E. M just came in and somehow destroyed this amazingly wonderful relationship that had zero issues and that would have lasted towards eternity if they hadn't brought in this one dangerous substance. And that. Yeah, I'm going to have a very strong reaction to that. As somebody who has done a lot of work deconstructing sexual negativity, which is rampant in not only this show, but I'm not talking about Mormon stories.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:06] The Mormon lives a secret, secret lives of Mormon wives. It is so rampant in how they talk about themselves and how they talk about their experiences and how they talk not just about E M but the pornography issue and how the parents are, you know, interacting with them. It is rife in sex negative culture. And when we talk about this in this way that just, oh, well, I've talked to many people where it blows up, first of all, ignores the many, many people who do A beautiful job navigating ethical non monogamy. It also ignores all the many people who practice at me for a while.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:43] It's a chapter of exploration for them. And then return to monogamy. And it also ignores the fact that many of these people, I believe, would have divorced regardless.

John Dehlin [00:35:53] Sure, absolutely. And Natasha, we're. We're close friends, so in a way I'm. In a way, I'm representing a side. I'm not even necessarily representing me. And in a way, I'm representing prevailing thoughts. So if it, like, I love it that we're having this thoughtful conversation. I appreciate the pushback and your professionality and I hope you feel no disrespect as we kind of engage in a dialogue where we're trying to do a lot of things, including dispel unhelpful stereotypes. Right. And so sometimes I can't even represent those in my questions or positions, in addition to all my ignorance and problems.

Chelsea Homer [00:36:36] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:36] It's never an issue of disrespect. I don't feel disrespected. I feel like, ooh, nervous.

Chelsea Homer [00:36:41] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:41] And anxious because I'm like, oh, here we go again. Spouting biases around a certain lifestyle. And I've talked to so many people, which is the number one thing they feel harms them. Right. Why can't these ladies even talk about this on this show?

Natasha Helfer [00:36:59] Is it because they don't want to talk about it? Is it because there wasn't pleasure involved? Is it because they're, you know, the reason why? And they say it often. Well, this is when the term Mormon comes up on the show. Well, but I'm Mormon and I don't. I hate talking about this. Right. Like, I think it's Taylor who's just kind of like, I'm going to be open. I'm going to be. I'm just going to throw it out there. And then is it Marissa's. Miranda. Sorry. Um, she's like, oh, I just, you know, our parents are going to be watching this and our community is going to be watching this.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:31] And so you can see right away that the shame response that the thing that they're really pushing up against is the cultural standards that everybody around them is now going to slut shame them, is now going to say, this is bad for your marriage. Some of their marriages did break up. So now it's like, it just becomes like, see, this is what happens. Ignoring the astronomical issues that are happening in these marriages to begin with.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:56] And, and even this whole idea that, oh, people sometimes open up their marriage to try to fix. Feels like that's a negative. And I'm like, why wouldn't you try everything to try to fix your marriage? Do you know how costly divorce is? And so when people come to my office and they're like, you know, we don't know what else to do, there's maybe a sexual incompatibility or there's a long history of sexual trauma between us or sexual dissatisfaction, affection. And we're thinking about this as a last ditch effort. I'm like, let's talk about that. Let's, let's see if that could be something that could work and if it doesn't, it sounds like you were already down the road of divorce anyway.

Natasha Helfer [00:38:33] Why not get creative? Why do we have to have these binaries of passionately sexually together forever or toxically divorced and we can't even, you know, hardly co parent. It's like we've got to get more creative folks. Right. And ethical non monogamy is an option to already a problematic relational structure. Because if everybody wants to tell me monogamy is just so safe and risk free. It is not all relational structures have challenges. The only positive that monogamy has is that it's very backed up by our legal systems, our political systems, our religious systems and our family systems. So you don't face any challenge when, when you are trying to live a monogamous lifestyle.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:19] Whereas you do if you. For a long time it was the homosexual lifestyle. Right. I heard all, all the same arguments that I'm hearing right now against E M are the same arguments that we used against homosexuals in the 1970s and 80s and to try to not pass marriage equality laws. Right. And all those things. So there's great stigma. When there's great stigma, sexuality usually doesn't do well. But it's not that type of sexuality's fault.

John Dehlin [00:39:46] Yeah. Thank you, Natasha. I'm so glad you're here to advocate for your experience and for just all the people you've interacted with. So. And you know what? It's totally true that in this episode and in my experience in ex Mormonism, like rack up all the taboos like drinking marijuana drugs, adultery, pornography, whatever the, whatever the taboos are. Like, I think swinging might be, or losing your faith or being gay or being lesbian or being bisexual, whatever things might be taboos. Is it, is it true, Chelsea and, and Alyssa, in your experience that like swinging might be the most feared, the most stigmatized, the most toxic of all kind of the, the stigmas I'll Let Alyssa, I'll let you go first. Or do you even have a sense for that?

Sexual Shame and Stigma in Mormon Upbringings

Alyssa Witbeck [00:40:42] You mean like currently? That's something that people.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] Yeah, like, like in that interview with Miranda, she's just like, like Taylor came out and started saying swinging and I'm like, I'm out because I've got believing Mormon family. And I didn't want anything to do with being associated with that. You know what I'm saying?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:40:58] Yeah, no, no, to your point. I think that is something that holds a lot of stigma right now especially. And like Natasha was just really saying, like queer relationships theoretically are. Have much less stigma now. And I think there's, you know, still progress to be made, but that has come a long way. But it is really interesting how in this interview and also just throughout the show, anytime they are talking about any of the non monogamy, it comes out very, very shameful. And Miranda in particular, and granted, you know, she is on a TV show and she clearly feels uncomfortable and she has said that she didn't want to talk about it before anyway, but what.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:41:35] But she seems just deeply embarrassed and is continually saying we did this and we shouldn't have. I know it's. I know it's so crazy. And that's kind of a lot of like the energy I think that even Taylor has a little bit too is anytime sex comes up, they are seem to be a little bit apologetic about it. I mean, maybe not totally, but that definitely seems to be an energy I think that we gravitate toward sometimes as Mormons is like, even if we are trying to work through any sort of sexual trauma or purity culture, we will then be embarrassed or apologetic about it, have a hard time being able to just own that that is a part of life.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:42:17] And I think you can see that on the show a lot. Especially like, I guess later we talk more about like orgasm and having sex parties. And there is just this kind of like nervousness that pervades all of the sex conversations, even though they're trying to say they're being sex positive. But it comes across like very gimmicky I think as a viewer and very like, ooh, Mormons are freaky. Is. And that was even a specific question that in the interview that I was just talking about was asked like, are Mormons like freakier than everybody else? And anyway, I just think that's way that the taboo is making people feel embarrassed.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] Yeah, Chelsea, let's get you in. I know that these are.

Chelsea Homer [00:43:02] No, I. I think it's been really fun to watch people Deconstruct this stigma. And I think I'm around a lot of people where it is less stigmatized and it is a softening where Mormon marriage often feels like a cage. And I think people can really acknowledge that. And I think supporting Natasha's claims too, Miranda's been very clear that her exploring with this soft swinging had nothing to do with her divorce with Chase.

Chelsea Homer [00:43:26] There were a lot of other factors at play. And so anyway, I mean this is a conversation I'm currently having in my personal life, so I'm very like warm to this idea where I just think there's a humility that comes with deconstructing Mormonism of being so wrong about so many things and systems and traditions. And so I just, as someone who's been very, very impacted by purity culture, I just am constantly trying to stay open minded to like ways that I'm wrong and that approaching a relationship. I've been very juvenile and infantilized in my personal experience. And so anyway, I've also seen, you know, ethical non monogamy be very, very rewarding for a lot of really close friends of mine.

Chelsea Homer [00:44:06] And so, and I think queerness is a big aspect where there's just an expansive view where all these boxes have been deconstructed. So it's really fun to be talking about sex here too with Natasha in the room where Natasha was one of the first people talking about sex openly at Sunstone Symposium years ago when I was still so terrified to do anything in my marriage and, and even deconstructing the church. And so anyway, I just think having therapy, a lot of my therapy appointments involve sex, almost all of them. So. And it's been years since I've left the church and it just is still about sex, like confronting sexual shame.

John Dehlin [00:44:43] I love it. Okay. A lot of people are wanting to know what's the difference between soft swinging and swinging? Does I. I could take a stab at that only because I have friends that have done it. But does anybody want to take a stab at it first?

Chelsea Homer [00:44:57] I'd say Natasha should take it away.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] Do you have a sense for that, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [00:45:01] I, I think a lot of these terms are defined obviously by people in their own ways. My best stab at that would be that soft swinging would be kind of like doing things that we would have considered okay to do in dating life or maybe even more than a little bit that would have been considered okay.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:45:20] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:45:20] But I've, I've, and I've worked with a lot of actually practicing LDS folks. It's not just the Deconstructing LDS folks who are interested in non monogamy. There's quite a few people who are still very active and very involved in the church who are practicing in these things, which might come as a surprise to people, but this has been my experience for the last 20 years. This isn't even new. This is, this is like this has just happened. So I think in general it's kind of like, well, waist up type of swapping, right? We're gonna maybe kiss and make out. We're gonna maybe touch erogenous zones in the chest area, but we're going to stay away from genitalia or maybe stay away from intercourse.

Natasha Helfer [00:46:00] Right. So again, this gets defined by different people in different ways, where swinging, I think in general just means any type of sexual activities on the table as long as there's consistent consent and people enjoy what. What's being proposed. Hopefully. Hopefully the consent is there. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] Well, what. What. I've often heard it begin by the husbands. Well, everyone's drinking. You know, there's a. There's a close relationship between the people involved and the husbands are encouraging their wives to kiss. And there's, you know, I've. There's something about that that kind of bothers me. So I want to let y'. All. What do y'. All. Do y' all have thoughts or feelings about this scenario that feels common to me of husbands encouraging their wives to kiss as kind of that sometimes first step into uneducated, not necessarily informed, not necessarily ethical alcohol influenced non monogamy that I've seen emerge in sort of post Mormon culture. Any thoughts on that? Because that, that seems problematic to me.

Chelsea Homer [00:47:10] But anybody else, it's hard to judge like if there's full consent from everybody, then I think like that if that's something everyone wants to participate in, that's great. I think coming from a very Mormon power dynamic, which sounds like that's kind of what was happening in some of these relationships. Yeah, it does. It does feel a little off as everyone's just slowly stepping into this territory. But it's really hard to judge from an outsider where we don't know all the details and how that situation came to be. But it does feel off when it is in the context of Mormonism, which.

John Dehlin [00:47:42] What's off about it of just the

Chelsea Homer [00:47:44] power dynamic of men and women and sexualizing women, where women have often been seen as an accessory to men, a help meet to men. And so I think just even orchestrating something where it's for the men's viewing can kind of Feel off. But again, it's hard to make these sweeping judgments where none of us were in the room when it happened. So I don't.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:07] But.

John Dehlin [00:48:08] But in the case of the interview with Miranda that Alyssa pointed me to, Miranda says, we never really discussed it. It was nothing we planned. They certainly didn't go to Natasha and get the. The education, the workshops, the seminars. It's literally just. They're spending a lot of time together. They're in Park City, they're all drinking, and then one night, the husbands are encouraging the wives to kiss. And it was. I think it was Taylor and Taylor. Miranda, Is that right, Melissa?

Chelsea Homer [00:48:34] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:48:34] Yeah. And again, to agree with what Chelsea was saying, if everything's consensual, things are planned, amazing. I do think it just kind of taps into that idea of, like, fetishizing lesbianism in particular. And so I think that's why, for me, that just, like, the concept of, like, a man asking to him to kiss for, like, the voyeuristic reason, even outside of this scenario, that I. That I don't know. But just like, that concept, I think feels a little bit like.

Chelsea Homer [00:49:03] Well, can I say this whole conversation feels very Mormon to the voyeurism of even just the show. Like, I don't think they needed to disclose all of the things that happened. That feels very Mormon coded with, you know, since we're young children, we're in the bishop's office disclosing what we think about where we touch ourselves. Like, this whole conversation. I wish that they didn't have to go so into the weeds. I know a lot of this soft swinging between Taylor and Miranda's story was a matter of semantics, of, like, what does it mean when, you know, Taylor's saying hooking up? And Miranda, you know, was saying one thing and Taylor was saying another.

Chelsea Homer [00:49:35] But I wish that the. I wish that they had the liberty to have some of that be private, because it does feel so Mormon to have to, like, confess and disclose to this whole group of women and the public what they're doing behind closed doors. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:49] Because in that opening scene, the. The women, the secret lives, they're kind of sitting around in a circle. Miranda comes in. She's introduced for the first time in the season to the audience. And almost immediately, Taylor, the topic comes up, and Miranda's, like, quick to say no. Was it no wieners were touched? Is that kind of what she felt like she needed to say? Right. And she. And that Taylor looks shocked, and all the women were like, whoa, that's not what I. Because apparently Taylor was basically saying swinging was happening, but Miranda's like, I don't know what anyone else did, but as far as I'm concerned, maybe I kissed Taylor and maybe there was some other soft stuff going on, but no wieners were touched. And you're saying that's. Why should that even be?

Chelsea Homer [00:50:31] Well, yeah, and I guess they really built it up all season one and, like, online, their two, you know, accounts were saying very different things. So I think it was a matter of, like, trying to put a pin in that. And I can see why people are like, we don't know who to believe, and it feels like someone's lying. But I think there was, like, Natasha said, just a lot of shame, especially on Miranda's part. And I think trying to navigate this in a very public setting when she was feeling judged by very Mormon family and friends and she was having her own faith transition, her marriage was crumbling.

Chelsea Homer [00:51:00] So I can see why she kind of shied from that conversation. Not to give her a pass on, you know, if she was lying or whatnot. But I, I, I do wish that that wasn't such a huge part of the, the conversation, you know, in season one.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:51:13] And I think too, even throughout this season, some of the women like reiterating multiple times, like, we need to get to the bottom of, of the Sweeney scandal. And the idea too, that a couple of them say is, like, in order to trust each other, we need to be able to be completely honest. That also feels very Mormon, that this, like, hyper confession. In order to have a friendship at all, we need to know every single thing that's happened. That, like, we need to know your sexual preferences for some reason. And I, I mean, I understand that there's some complexity there because perhaps there was some, the, the claim is that there was dishonesty or there was lying.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:51:49] You know, there's this friendship breakup. But I do think just the idea in general that, like, as friends, we deserve to know everything about each other. We deserve to know all the details, and, like, that's the only way that we can go forward. And I think that also just becomes a theme generally, is really trying to police the concept of honesty. And I think that comes up with Jen a lot to both Jen and I think the swing situation is something that they're really trying to get very exact details on. And I think that comes from such a Mormon angle.

Chelsea Homer [00:52:22] Also the accountability. Everyone's holding each other accountable constantly, but there's no path for repair. There's no path for, like, trying to reconcile. And so these secrets aren't really kept safe anyway. And so I think it's just kind of a volatile situation to be disclosing.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:52:38] And some of the disclosure doesn't feel like it's relevant at all to the actual relationships or the conversations. It does seem to, like, a semi, like, arguing about semantics at times, and they're not able to, like, move forward in that repair, like you were saying. But I think, like, as a culture, we love confessing and we love.

Chelsea Homer [00:52:57] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:52:58] Holding people accountable and using that as this, like, pious way of saying I'm. I am doing this better than you. And that is also a way to like.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:07] No.

John Dehlin [00:53:07] There is an assumption in the secret lives that, like, the ones who aren't experimenting with swinging or non monogamy are somehow superior to the ones that did. And the ones who did are, like, repentant and they're sorry and. And they're not doing it anymore.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:53:21] And they have to tell you every detail.

John Dehlin [00:53:23] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:53:23] In order to, like, prove that they're sorry.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] That's what Chelsea Henny, you're saying. It's almost like the bishop penitence and

Chelsea Homer [00:53:31] like that comment from Demi. This is like, later on in the season and it's not a spoiler, but, you know, she's calling Taylor disgusting. And I think that Taylor really holds a lot of that stigma where people are calling her messy. And I think she's just been very transparent about her journey.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] And she keeps saying trash. I feel like I'm trash.

Chelsea Homer [00:53:46] And so anyway, I think they're really defeating that story that she has about herself. And it's really disappointing because I think that her honesty has been really brave. And I think to do this on such a large stage is just terrifying, especially including, like, involving faith, where, like, her family seems to be the most religious of the entire season. Like, there's not a conversation that her mom's not bringing up the church that they're having one on one or in a group setting. So I. I think, like, she. Their stakes are very, very high and so.

John Dehlin [00:54:13] Sure.

Chelsea Homer [00:54:14] Anyway.

John Dehlin [00:54:14] Yeah. Yeah. Let me just quickly say my staff's bugging me. We've got 700 people joining the live stream. Lots will join later. And no, very few of you have liked. There's only like seven likes. So please take a second to like this episode, comment on it. It will really help the algorithms and help get this really important conversation that Natasha would agree. We need to beat down some of these stigmas. We need better education. But we can only do that if. If this episode reaches people. So Please take a second, to like this episode on YouTube. No one will know. And some people are worried about that. Natasha, let's get you in.

Natasha Helfer [00:54:50] Life of Mormon story. Likes.

John Dehlin [00:54:54] No, but Latasha, let's get you in on this conversation. Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:54:57] This is such a fascinating, complex conversation. I don't even know where I can go with my brain, because it's wanting to go 500 different places.

John Dehlin [00:55:03] But is punching me one of the places?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:55:06] No.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:08] No. So never.

Chelsea Homer [00:55:13] I.

Sexual Development After Leaving the Church

Natasha Helfer [00:55:14] Let's start with this question that you asked about how supposedly this went down, right? You're at a party, people are drinking alcohol. Now there's a group of men in particular in heterosexual relationships, inviting. Somewhere between inviting and pressuring, you know, their wives or other women in the room to. To potentially do something erotic. So let's break that down. I mean, could there be patriarchal power themes in there, like both of you have just mentioned? Absolutely. That is not unique to Mormonism, and that is something that should be addressed systemically, ongoingly. That's a conversation with the MeToo movement and everything that we're having as a country, and we're not doing very well in having that conversation, quite frankly.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:56:03] So that.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:03] That's an issue. The other side of that coin is another issue where how free are women in these cultures to be aggressive and initiate those kinds of playful things to begin with? I've heard sometimes women telling me, well, it's kind of nice that my husband takes the lead on that, because otherwise I would feel slutty, right? The things that I want to do, I can't just come out and say them, because then what are people going to think? So there's still this kind of like virtue monitoring, self virtue monitoring or, you know, virtue monitoring of other people, of how women show up. And the slut shaming is alive and well people, right?

Natasha Helfer [00:56:43] It's like if I say I like to have sex, if I. If I say I want to try something, if I want to be even crass in my language, oftentimes that's treated differently than if a male counterpart would do those same things.

Chelsea Homer [00:56:56] So that's.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:57] That's something that we have going on in general. Ideally, you know, how do I want people's sexual debuts to go, right? Like, even their first sexual experience, ideally, they would have had tons of sexual, comprehensive sexual education. They would have lots of people to talk to. They'd have access to lots of resources and good sex ed books, and they're very well, you know, educated on sexual principles of health, consent, how to pause, how to know what to do in Those moments where you kind of want to, but maybe you kind of don't want to, which is not the same as an enthusiastic yes, which is all we seem to know how to talk about.

Natasha Helfer [00:57:33] And although enthusiastic yeses are awesome, they're not very common. Right. Most of us are kind of discerning as we're becoming sexual. How much of this do I want? Am I still enjoying it five minutes later? Was it as hot as when I thought about it versus what it is in actuality? Right. So you're in the moment. You're negotiating a lot feelings and thoughts with yourself, much less the other people around you. And so I would love for sexual debuts to have so much of that, including ethical non monogamy debuts. The reality is that whether it's a teenager having their first sexual experience or a couple in their 50s having their first swinging experience, oftentimes that's not how it goes down.

Natasha Helfer [00:58:13] It goes down in the moment, right? Maybe we hadn't talked about it or thought about it, or maybe we are, you know, enjoying a meal or a drink or even, you know, cannabis, which is legal in so many areas of the United States now, even recreationally. And so you're having all of these yummy things kind of enticing you. And now eroticism gets introduced and you're kind of like, well, maybe, you know, this might be exciting, or I don't want to disappoint, right? I don't want to disappoint is something we want to really tune into. Because if you're doing things for not wanting to disappoint either your partner or other people in the group, we want to pay attention to that.

Natasha Helfer [00:58:51] That's not a great way to do anything that's sexual. Right? And so, but we're not practiced. We don't have this practice, we don't have this culture. And therefore lots of things can get messy. And people more often than not come in to see me when things have gotten messy than in preparation. I wish more people would come in in preparation. But more, more likely than not, people come in when things have gotten messy. So we really want to even deconstruct that. What's going on there? Does it have to be this simple binary idea of the man once again pulled his patriarchal trump card? That may be a component of it, and we definitely want to address that, but it's usually much more complex than that.

Natasha Helfer [00:59:31] Whereas in a female body, and I know this very personally, I was never taught to really understand my arousal, my pleasure, my eroticism, my desires. I'VE been a fairly high drive person except for during pregnancy and breastfeeding. Do not recommend for eroticism but the breastfeeding part. Do recommend for babies but not for your eroticism. And so it's, it's hard to give yourself permission when the entire society has never given you permission as a female bodied person to figure out what it is I want in that moment where my spouse, that maybe I'm excited to excite or other people are looking at me in a certain way to make a decision that's going to feel fully autonomous and independent.

Chelsea Homer [01:00:17] Plus I.

Natasha Helfer [01:00:18] The other thing I want to bring up is that if you are in faith deconstruction mode or even if you're not this, I would apply this to everybody. It's just I think if you're in faith deconstruction mode, you're more self aware is we are developmentally stunted when it comes to sexuality. We were basically we, we were encouraged to bypass sexual development from being pretty much an asexual 8 year old to being a married 20 year old. Right. That, that those years in between we were just supposed to sexually bypass everything that was going on in our bodies and our hormonal shifts and our puberty changes and our crushes and our identity formation and our orientations in our gender.

Natasha Helfer [01:01:01] All of that was bypassed. And so now when you're deconstructing or maybe you're interested in soft swapping as an LDS person, whether you realize, realize it or not, you're doing old developmental stages work. Right. Things that we should have been practicing, testing, learning from in those kind of late teen to early emerging adulthood years. Most of us did not have a lot of experience and if we did, it was under this umbrella of shame, not appropriate sexual development. It was like, oh, I shouldn't have, you know. And now I'm dealing with my past from that perspective. So yeah, these moments where people are kissing at parties and by the way, a few more thoughts.

Natasha Helfer [01:01:42] Research shows that actually in heterosexual relationships it's more often than not the female who will bring the E M conversation to the table. Again, I don't know if that applies to Mormon culture. Right. But in general it's usually the female who brings that topic to the table.

John Dehlin [01:01:59] I did not know that.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:00] And the post, the fee post Mormon parties I have been at where I have been witness to these kinds of kissing things. It has been very female driven. The women get together, they're all having fun, you know, me flashing their titties or doing some kissing and it's almost like they're showing off. It's almost like they exclude the men. And it's almost. I get this feeling like, look at us. And you don't get access to us because we are now encircling each other in this erotic energy that's between us women. So I've seen a lot of empowerment in that kind of. And I don't know if there was whisperings, you know, like, hey, go kiss so and so, but I haven't seen that be so much a male driven thing in, in the few parties I have been at.

John Dehlin [01:02:44] And can I, can I ask a follow up about that to all of you? But Natasha too. Isn't it a pretty significant phenomenon that there are many, at least Mormon or post Mormon women who, because they never were allowed to have normal, healthy sexual developmental experiences, whether that's masturbation or just dating men and women. Are y' all seeing a decent number of questioning or ex Mormon women realize that either they're bisexual or they might even be lesbian. And they never had a chance to even discover that. And so they're in the situation where they and or their partner have lost their faith. Maybe they have not had a healthy sexual relationship throughout their entire marriage.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] And many are finding that, whoa, who knew I'm bisexual? Or whoa, who knew I'm actually lesbian? And I just thought of myself as the lower desired partner or the lower libido dream partner. Did any of y' all sing that or think it's Chelsea?

Chelsea Homer [01:03:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:03:54] Okay. Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:03:55] Just. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:03:55] Okay. Like significant.

Chelsea Homer [01:03:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:58] Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:00] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:04:00] Seems pretty significant from what I've seen too.

John Dehlin [01:04:03] Okay.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:04] Yes, I, I would agree as well. I think first of all, we have research to show that for whatever reasons, whether it's cultural or biological, I don't think we know quite yet, but female sexuality tends to, to be more fluid. We do also trend as a, as an overall culture to be more comfortable with female. On female sexuality, like you mentioned, even it being fetishized, you don't get a whole lot of people in a group going, okay, you two guys, let's kiss. And we're all going to get aroused by watching the two of you kiss. So there's still a lot of homophobic kind of energies in the overall, general, you know, culture as well as the Mormon culture.

Chelsea Homer [01:04:41] And that's.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:42] And that's just, that's in, that's systemic.

John Dehlin [01:04:46] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:46] For whatever reasons. Right. It's hot when Madonna kissed Britney Spears. Right. It's hot when. But we don't see like, you know, some Some male singer kissing another male singer and then that be eroticized by the whole community. So that's a homophobic, systemic issue. I. There may be some biological. But I, I also think it's very environmental that women are allowed to have more erotic kind of energies towards each other without that being such a taboo within the overall culture. So some of that can be performative because women know that it turns on men, and some of that can be just very autonomous. Right. And authentic. Like, this is actually something I enjoy. And what does that mean coming from a very heteronormative, rigid box that we come from in Mormon culture?

John Dehlin [01:05:32] And so to your point, Natasha, when you're seeing some post Mormon or questioning Mormon women initiating em, or at least the discussion of em, sometimes it comes out of that context, right?

Natasha Helfer [01:05:44] Yes, absolutely. And another issue that I see is that oftentimes in a heterosexual couple, the couple will be more. They'll be more okay with the female in that couple hood experimenting with other women and even the male experimenting with other women. But then the rule or the agreement is we don't bring in other men. Right. So in that sense, there's a threat response. That's a threat response. Right. And especially the heterosexual man in that particular example may not feel threatened by his wife playing with another woman, as he would maybe feel threatened if she was playing with another man. Which again, goes to a lot of sex negative stereotypes that we're dealing with, regardless of your gender.

John Dehlin [01:06:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a tiny bit of a spoiler in episode four. It starts out with Layla and her boyfriend Cameron, who's the son of a bishop. Layla's basically saying to Cameron, I've never had an orgasm before. Cameron, do you feel a lot of pressure now that we're sexually active to be someone who helps me facilitate my first orgasm? And the truth is, very close, people to me in my life made it to age 35 or 40 having never experienced an orgasm at all. Is that, is that also something any of you want to say? Is a deep more if you know, it's probably a human thing, but it's certainly a Mormon or an ex Mormon thing. Anyone?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:07:18] Yeah, I mean, I definitely, I definitely think so. I think that Mormon women and women, period, are not given the opportunity or like, allowance to explore. And so I think when Layla's in this situation, I also found it notable that a lot of that conversation revolved around, like, her and Cam's relationship. It wasn't even really Layla in this position or, or just like a woman being able to figure out her own sexuality and figure out, like, what is it that I would like? What it. Why is it that I, you know, have had sex and I've had sexual experiences, but I haven't had an orgasm?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:07:56] Is this something that, like, do I feel comfortable masturbating on my own? Is that something that I've even tried or considered? And I thought that was also interesting that, like, during this whole conversation around sex, it was. There was no real, like, discussion or awareness at all of, like, what a woman could do for herself or figuring it out on her own at all. It was always like, okay, well, now, Kim, you probably feel a lot of pressure, which I. Which I know is like, a different dynamic, but it seems like there's two different kind of conversations happening. One is, like, this is a new relationship, so they need to figure it out together, figuring out what their own.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:08:35] What they like together, et cetera. But that seems like a very separate conversation than the heart of what it seems like they were trying to get at, which is like, Layla and I think a lot of women within Mormonism never being allowed or feeling allowed to explore their own sexuality or eroticism and figure out what turns them on and what they like on their own. And it was interesting how those two conversations seemed so blended here. And that also felt very Mormon, too, where she kind of was like, I don't know what turns me on. I know that's probably really hard for you, because now you've got to figure it out. And there's. Anyway. And then they did have the party in an attempt, I guess, to maybe, like, empower her a little bit.

Chelsea Homer [01:09:17] But, yeah, I mean, at the party, I don't know if it was a sex coach or a sex therapist. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the party, Layla's sex party. But the coach essentially was saying, like, what turns you on? Or when do you feel aroused? And Layla wasn't able to answer. And for me, that felt very relatable. Where I think sex is about creating an environment, you know, to be successfully aroused.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:09:41] And.

Chelsea Homer [01:09:42] And I think you need to center women's pleasure, which, again, the church, that is not happening, because women are not at the center in any conversation in the church, but, like, you know, just being able to be in touch with yourself. And I feel like that's. Like, when Layla said that, you know, that was kind of an emotional moment for me where I'm like, I have experienced that, too. Like, I don't even know where I would put myself to make, like, to be in a State of arousement without like another person involved. I think it starts there and so I, I like that they started to have that conversation.

Chelsea Homer [01:10:11] I feel like the party kind of got very weird vibes when, you know, I think there's some internalized homophobia. You know, making comments about how loudly, like, I am straight, I am heterosexual, and then making comments about being, you know, shackled by the coach of like, oh, I never thought this would happen by a woman. Or, you know, just things like that where I'm like, I think there's a lot of deconstruction still to be done in that room and at that party. But I think they were starting to have some good conversations for Layla's sake. But I don't know. Did you watch that scene yet, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [01:10:41] Yeah. No, I thought that, like, I don't know her and it sounds like she's more in the coaching kind of realm of things and educational realm of things and the therapeutic side of things. And I thought her questions and her activities were, yeah, really good and interesting. And I think the part that you're talking about is when they. Weren't they supposed to rub each other's hands?

Chelsea Homer [01:11:00] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:11:01] What feels good. Right. And so I've had to do that in trainings, right, where, where somebody's teaching us a concept and we, they're like, okay, turn to the therapist next to you and figure some of this stuff out. And especially with the hand massage and consensual stuff and being able to talk about that.

Natasha Helfer [01:11:21] And even for me, with all the training that I have, I still find myself uncomfortable in those spaces. And so I can't imagine for these young women who've never had anything like that to now have that eroticism that they've probably very strictly put into a certain box, that I could even enjoy a sensation that doesn't have to be sexual, but that I'm just learning what feels good texture wise against my skin. They can't separate that. Oh, no, that's gotta be a sexual thing. And that's where I think you see all that anxiety coming forth. Like, how can I even accept a touch from a friend who's a woman and who isn't my husband?

Natasha Helfer [01:12:00] And even consider whether or not I would like that. Such as speaks to the inability to really compartmentalize in healthy ways the many aspects of our eroticism and sensuality. I should be able to give you a hand massage, Chelsea, and you tell me whether or not you like it or not. Right?

Chelsea Homer [01:12:16] That's great. Let's switch spots.

Natasha Helfer [01:12:17] John, without you and me without you and me worrying about whether or not it's going to be sexual. Right. Yeah, that. That should be something. And you should be able to tell me, oh, I like that pressure. Or I like that. Can you go a little softer? Can you go a little harder? Can. Can you actually, how about this medic? You know, can you do my thumb where I kind of hurt from punching my computer?

Chelsea Homer [01:12:37] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:12:38] You should be able to tell me all those things and for it to be very comfortable between you and I, because we understand that this isn't a sexual moment, but it is a moment of pain, pleasure, and. And I think we don't really know how to separate those things. Like, anything that could potentially even look like a sexual encounter now has to be put in that box. And I've got to monitor it, and I've got to gatekeep it, and I've got to make sure everybody knows that it's appropriate.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:13:03] Right?

Chelsea Homer [01:13:04] Yeah, I think that's a really good point.

Natasha Helfer [01:13:06] Yeah.

Therapy, Orgasmic Difficulty, and Religious Conditioning

John Dehlin [01:13:06] And, Chelsea, you reminded me to mention I was reading your substack recently, and you mentioned Amy McPhee Allibeth's breaking down Patriarchy episode with Celeste where they talk about centering women's pleasure. I think you linked to that episode.

Chelsea Homer [01:13:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] And that was a fantastic episode. So I just want to give a shout out to Breaking Down Patriarchy to Celeste, but also to your sub stack.

Chelsea Homer [01:13:32] Oh, that's nice.

John Dehlin [01:13:33] I think you had a Halloween episode where you also talked about.

Chelsea Homer [01:13:35] I talk about sex a lot online because it's something I'm just purging where I just don't want to do it alone. I feel like the isolation and secrecy really adds to the shame. But, yeah, they. Amy and Celeste did an episode on why so many Mormon women think that they're asexual. And that's not to, like, stigmatize asexuality, but just a disconnect from any type of knowing how to communicate what you want, what that could look like. And so they really dive into some of the history. It's like 18 minutes long. It's a really great deep dive. So.

John Dehlin [01:14:07] But so is your substack, so I'm gonna. Is it okay if I plug that?

Natasha Helfer [01:14:12] Okay, so can I say something really quick before we move on? So I just want to say an orgasmia and genital pain are both more common in religious conservative communities. That. That is backed up by the research.

John Dehlin [01:14:28] Not being able to have an orgasm as a woman.

Natasha Helfer [01:14:30] And then the orgasm gap. Correct. And the orgasm gap is alive and well everywhere. Right. So I think nationwide to every, you know, hundred male orgasms, we're getting about 70 to 80 somewhere around there of female orgasms. So that, that is an issue. And again, not that every sexual encounter needs to end in orgasm. Sometimes people are like, I don't, I don't want to go that far, but I'd like to erotically spend some time with you, so that's fine too. But I'm just saying there is an orgasm gap nationwide, but in religiously conservative communities there's a higher number of these, these issues of not being able to orgasm and also genital pain.

John Dehlin [01:15:07] Love it. Yeah, Okay. I don't want to. I sense that as we continue this episode, in future episodes of Mormon Stories where we cover this, that I hope some of you or all of you will be able to continue with us. We'll be talking more about non monogamy and, or swinging and, or soft swinging. I do want to cover a couple of the topics before we have our hard stop at noon. But before I end, let me see if Natasha, you and I can agree on at least one thing. Would you agree? Or at least one important thing.

Natasha Helfer [01:15:37] We only agree on one thing.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] One important thing. One important thing to, to, to tie up today's discussion of soft swinging. Would you agree that it's probably ill advised for a newly questioning couple coming out of a high demand religion to mix alcohol and just spontaneous swinging without getting some sort of therapeutic or education around what ethical non monogamy is? Would you, could we agree on that? Maybe?

Natasha Helfer [01:16:11] Yes, I, I would generally agree with that.

John Dehlin [01:16:14] Okay.

Natasha Helfer [01:16:15] Yay, we did it at the same time.

John Dehlin [01:16:20] No, let's pause, let's pause. She said yes, we agree. We have consensus on something important. We're holding hands.

Natasha Helfer [01:16:32] Here's what I will say. I mean, ideally, yes, ideally, we would pace all kinds of things. You know, if somebody's going through a really big change in their life, my number one piece of advice is let's not make any huge decisions right now. Right? So like give it a little bit of time, pace it out. Try one thing at a time. You know, like if you're going to try alcohol, how are you going to try that? How are you. If you're going to try cannabis and if you're going to try, you know, em stuff, if you're going to try even something as simple as taking off your garments and wearing clothing that people can tell you're not wearing your garments that has a visceral response in your body.

Natasha Helfer [01:17:04] Right. So let's pace things. So yes, I would and my concern is, because this is what we do in Mormon land all the time, is that we put out the ideal, this is how it should be, this is how you should do it. And then half the people listening are like, well, shit, I didn't even. I already messed it up. I already didn't follow that advice.

John Dehlin [01:17:24] I mean, honestly, the stigma is so bad on swinging and non monogamy that like, that, that in and of itself is going to be a barrier to people going to. You reading a book or even talking about it as a couple to feel stupid.

Natasha Helfer [01:17:38] Right? Or like, oh, what did we do? Or we fucked it all up. I'm like, just come and talk to me or somebody who's, you know, like affirming of ENM and knows what the hell they're talking about. Because tons and tons of therapists are not. And tons and tons of therapists will weaponize things like attachment theory and will weaponize trauma to explain why you're interested in these kinds of events, which. And many of them are also religiously biased therapists themselves. And so you want to be really careful where you get your information, who you go to for help. And I don't care how bad you think you've messed it up.

Natasha Helfer [01:18:11] It's not doomed, it's not over. And how do we have conversations? And what did you learn from those experiences? Because even if you feel like you messed up, that's valuable information. And how do you not, you know, in our culture when we mess up, it's not valuable information. It's like horrific. It's something you need to repent from. It's not worth anything good. Right? But no, actually, our mistakes, our regrets are beautiful sources of information to help you figure out what you want to do next. So that's, that's the caveat.

Chelsea Homer [01:18:42] I love that. Sources of information. I feel like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's much kinder and more compassionate than the Scarlet Letter.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:18:50] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:18:50] Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:18:51] Yeah, yeah. Moving from a sin and shame model to a learning model. Right? Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:18:56] Which goes back to even this show. Like, I don't know if they enjoyed what they did. I don't know if they wanted to do what they did. I don't know how they felt afterwards. I don't know the intersection of their guilt being tied to their Mormon beliefs versus their actual, you know, like, selling themselves short. That's. That those are very two different guilt forms. Right. And there's just no curiosity about any of those things. Those things are not things people are asking about. They're just like, yep, you're trash. You're right. I'm glad you. I'm glad you agree. Now you can get on the repentance, you know, bucket, and we can move on. And I'm like, wow, just such a loss of opportunity.

John Dehlin [01:19:31] Love it. Thank you all, all three of you, for being willing to have a delicate conversation, because I'm. I'm learning a lot, so thank you. Okay. I. I don't want to leave our discussion of episode one without talking about a couple of other things. And one is Zach and Jen getting together to have a little bit of a reconciliation. Now, Alyssa, or all of you may have noticed that Zach cuts his hair. I think that's worth mentioning. But what did y' all think about the reconciliation? At least the initial one in episode one where Zach seems to be trying to apologize to Jen. Any. Any thoughts about that? Did you buy it? Do you think Zach is really contrite? Do you think he's totally just trying. Going after the bag? You know, did he. Is he. Is he cloud chasing Chelsea? What do you think?

Relationship Tensions and Reconciliation Drama

Chelsea Homer [01:20:25] I know some people joked that his suitcase was empty, and it was like a facade of, like, just stage this for repair, but I would like to hope that. I mean, it's. I would love to hope that it's genuine. I think I'm always rooting for people who are trying to claw themselves out of the small thinking of Mormonism. And I think, like, the. The last season was really hard for their marriage. Like, Zach details people, like, hundreds of people telling him death threats and everybody collectively rooting for their demise as a couple while they're both navigating a faith transition. Like, that's. That's an incredibly painful thing.

Chelsea Homer [01:20:58] And so I have a lot of empathy. I feel like the conversation was good in that it reminded me of that moment from season one. Do you remember when Jen was talking to Zach on the phone at Chippendales and she was crying, saying, can you just see me as a human? And I know that moment resonated with a lot of my friends who have felt like that in their own marriages. And so for her to get specific on ways to do that, of validate me, hear me, like, prioritize my feelings, because I don't feel like I'm prioritizing this relationship. I think that was a good starting conversation.

Chelsea Homer [01:21:31] Whether he's genuine or not, it's. It's just hard to make that call. But, like, I'm hoping for the best for both of them. And as they're deconstructing, I know her mental Health has really tanked every episode that she's in the season. So I just hold them with compassion because having that conversation on such a big stage so intimately. And I know his family had a lot of feelings about the first season. That's just got to be really painful.

John Dehlin [01:21:57] Yeah. So many questioning or ex Mormon women that I've talked to will say, yeah, my. My husband is thoroughly deconstructed Mormonism, but they have not even started to deconstruct patriarchy. And it seems like that Zach, Jen conversation is like, hey, can we be equal?

Natasha Helfer [01:22:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:15] Which is what? Feminism. That's all it is, is like, we have equality. So I. I think it's important. Alyssa, thoughts. Is that a lot? Is this.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:22:26] I'm just saying. It's just that. It's just a tricky one, I think, just for them, I think. Well, okay, if I'm. If I'm trying to look at it from the. The most optimistic perspective. And I think that, like, there could be some. Some truth in this too, is. Well, I think we can't as viewers. The way that Zach and Jen's relationship was portrayed last season was. Was quite atrocious, and we don't know everything about the relationship. It has been a year, and I think then jumping into reconciliation, that feels really nice. But I think it's also important to not just immediately forget just how horrific it was or at least, again, how it was portrayed on screen.

John Dehlin [01:23:10] He was kind of a villain.

Chelsea Homer [01:23:12] He was horrible.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:23:13] Quite horrible.

John Dehlin [01:23:14] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:23:15] And I think in the best case scenario, we have a guy who does horrible things and then on a national scale has thousands of people telling him he did horrible things, and then he realizes, oh, wow, maybe I made some pretty severe mistakes. I'm going to start the deconstruction of patriarchy process. And of course, trying to be empathetic again. I understand that that is not a overnight switch, that some of those splinters of patriarchy are going to continue to seep through.

Chelsea Homer [01:23:47] That's a good way to put it.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:23:48] Yeah. And I still feel really frustrated by a lot of his behavior, even in this first episode.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] Like, what? I don't mean to put you on the spot.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:24:01] No, no, no. I just. I'm just thinking, like, I can see again, I try not to come at this just like, I'm trying not to get him across. Like, ah, he's just the worst issue. Divorce. Because of course, they have children, they have a complicated situation.

John Dehlin [01:24:14] And you see him as, like, fundamentally problematic.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:24:16] I do. I don't think he can. I think people have the ability to change. I don't. I'm not saying that that that is impossible. I'm just saying at this stage, I didn't feel like I saw a lot and at least was shown. That was like, oh, yeah, there's a lot of real change that I can see the steps happening. I was really proud of Jen for being able to give, like, the list of things that she wanted to have change. Being able to say, I need you to see me in this way. I need you to validate my feelings. Xyz. I thought that was fantastic.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:24:44] But, like, even in the first two minutes of them seeing together, Jen had set the boundary of saying, I'm going to go back to Utah. I'm choosing Mom Talk. I want you to stay in Arizona. And he broke that. I mean, he. I know he's trying. It seems like he's trying to do this gallant thing of like, oh, I'm going to do the. It's just. It reminded me of just like a common abuse cycle of the big, heroic grand gesture. I'm dropping out of med school and I'm moving back home. Well, she didn't ask you to move back home. In fact, she specifically asked for space.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] And he's like, I want to move in, basically, right.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:25:17] As soon as he walks in the door, he's like, this. She's like, isn't this a nice spot? He's like, yeah, I'd like it to be my spot, too. And granted, a minute later, she does say, okay, like, we can try it. And I think there's. There's a lot of potential there. Great. Awesome. And again, like I said a second ago, some of that first comment could just be his instincts kicking in. That doesn't mean he's irredeemable. But as a viewer, I'm not like, yeah, they're about there. I totally believe that this has potential to become healthy in reasonable amount of time. Also, I think what I, as a viewer was. I. I was thinking would have been amazing also is I'm thinking about the med school thing, how he's deferring, and he's like, I'm here. He kept saying that over and over again.

Natasha Helfer [01:26:00] I'm here for you.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:26:01] I'm here for you. Like, isn't that enough? Even though she had quite literally said she wanted to be separated, but that's what said point. She also said she bought she was lonely. So I can understand how he's, you know, feeling like he's trying to be present, which is also good.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:26:15] But the problem, from my perspective, what we didn't see. And maybe this conversation happened. I'm just giving, like a million disclaimers. Maybe this conversation happened off screen. We have no idea. But the reasoning for deferring med school, I think really matters. If he was like, I'm going to defer med school because med school is extremely emotionally and physically exhausting and time consuming. And I don't think I can really work to deconstruct all this patriarchy while I'm in the middle of med school. I don't think I have the bandwidth or the capacity to do that, which is why I'm going to defer a year year. I'm going to see, I'm going to do xyz.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:26:52] These are the things that I. I'm realizing I'm needing to do to actually make active changes as a person. And I would love to do that alongside you. I understand. If you need more space, I can stay in Arizona as long as you need me to. And then maybe, you know, I can come back and I.

John Dehlin [01:27:08] Or find an apartment in Utah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:27:11] Yeah, we can still be exactly like, what would make you feel comfortable. I really value this relationship, but I understand that in order to make this relationship work, I have to be less of a dick. So I'm going to, like, deconstruct, like, these couple things. Because he mentioned casually, like, oh, well, the church, you know, expects men and women to do certain things, but there's not. But then later, he's also. His main criticism of the church is not about the patriarchy. It's that he was feeling bullied, which is also horrible. And I think multiple things can exist at the same time. This person was treating Jen horribly, and I don't think we could just give him a pass.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:27:45] And we don't send death threats in dms people. Like, this is embarrassing happening on a screen. Like, I can see all of these things existing at the same time. And I feel like just giving him a pass because he was treated horribly by the public, which is bad, doesn't necessarily mean that, like, the deconstruction that we're seeing in episode one feels like anywhere near complete, yet totally has potential. Sorry, that was like, a really long no.

John Dehlin [01:28:15] I loved it. And Mikayla mentioned right off in the first episode that she makes more money off one brand deal than her husband does in his entire year. And can we discount the fact that Zach's like, med school for 10 years, a lot of hard work, or like, gravy train Jen, the gravy train? Like, I don't. I don't mean to be projecting that onto him, but, I mean, I think it's a valid question. Thanks for that. Alyssa and Chelsea. Natasha, any, any thoughts on episode one of, of Jen and Zach?

Natasha Helfer [01:28:51] Is that all we're talking about is episode one? So I need to be careful, right?

John Dehlin [01:28:54] Yeah. I mean, we're trying to, we're trying to, we, I hope to do maybe 10 of these episodes.

Natasha Helfer [01:28:58] Right. Okay. Yeah. No, I, I definitely see problematic behaviors there, especially from season one. I think the problematic behaviors are actually quite common in our culture. So I don't think that he's a one off. Right. I think that his ability to center himself and, you know, his sins are to be forgiven and her sins are catastrophic are typical themes that we see in kind of active, believing LDS couples. And not all, I mean, there's, there's wonderful men in LDS culture that are not like this at all who are believing men, but there are many who kind of are grown up with this kind of entitlement. I don't even think it's conscious.

Chelsea Homer [01:29:40] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:29:41] It's not like he's waking up every morning, how can I ruin my wife's life? But it's just an entitlement of how the career should be focused on him, the move should be focused on him. And his comfort needs to be centered.

Natasha Helfer [01:29:55] And I, and I see him now trying to maybe shift some of that. I think it's very interesting that they're going through a faith transition and what that will come out of it. I, as you said, oh, you, you deconstruct Mormonism, but you don't deconstruct patriarchy. I don't think you have deconstructed Mormonism if you haven't looked into patriarchy. At the same time, we can join the, the mainstream world, which most of them will be like, oh, yeah, you, you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. We're with you. He wasn't. Right. So the mainstream world is going to help us deconstruct that. When we try to deconstruct patriarchy, we enter the mainstream world and patriarchy is still very alive and well.

Natasha Helfer [01:30:33] So it's not like we have this, oh, we left it behind and now we can get into something new. I mean, we still have a pay gap wage. Right. I mean, we still have tons of issues. We elected a felon president instead of a capable woman. You're not going to be able to ever convince me that there wasn't some gender issue there, internalized misogyny that we have as a, as a country.

Natasha Helfer [01:30:54] So the patriarchy Deconstruction is much more complicated. I don't feel like I've completely deconstructed it myself. After many years of attending many gender diverse classes, many ways that I've trained myself to have more of a feminist lens, which of course, the majority of the public isn't doing that type of deconstructive work, which I would, you know, I would invite us all to be doing that work on an ongoing basis. How is patriarchy still showing up the way it recently showed up for me? Which I couldn't believe the words were coming out of my mouth as I said them. I was like, shit, Natasha, you've got a lot of work to do.

Natasha Helfer [01:31:28] I think it was a few years ago I said something like, I think I find men more interesting to talk to than women. And as I was saying, I was like, wow, Natasha, wow, you've got. What is that about? So off to therapy I went, and

Chelsea Homer [01:31:44] we've all got stuff that just kind of comes up, like, whack a mole. You're like, I thought I figured some of this out. And then it just services in different ways. And I think in an intimate relationship, it services even more intensely than, like friendships and stuff. So, yeah, I know that's a lot, like really intimate work to be doing.

Natasha Helfer [01:32:00] Yeah. The last thing I'll say about Jen, which I'm concerned about, is that her girlfriends are calling her out. I'm not sure if this is season one or whatever, but I think it started even last episodes, is that she's being called out for lying. For lying.

Honesty, Lying, and Mormon Culture

Natasha Helfer [01:32:15] And when people are in. First of all, lying is endemic in Mormon culture. We are all lying. Even though we fetishize honesty, we are all lying. What are we lying about? Our true feelings. Because we need to show up happy. So I'm not saying lying like, oh, I like big lies. I'm just talking about even lies about how we're feeling. We've got the constant smiles on. Even all the plastic surgery is a lie. All the ways that we present, we're just not presenting authentically.

Natasha Helfer [01:32:46] And so there's tons of people pleasing dynamics happening. And although I like to remind everybody it's healthy to be somewhat of a people pleaser, otherwise you're a sociopath. It can be out of balance. And so you can see her presenting in a certain way in one setting and you can see her presenting in another way in another setting. And I don't think that's because she wakes up in the morning going, I think I like being a liar. I think it's Self protective.

Chelsea Homer [01:33:13] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:33:13] Because she can only be so safe to share certain things in certain contexts. And this is a prime example of understanding because I think lots of us do this. And so if we can self reflect, how does this show up in my life? It's not so much about Jen. She's. She can figure that out on her own. It's like, how are we all participating in similar structures? Because I, I don't want to disappoint people. I don't want people to be angry with me. I don't. I, I want to be perceived a certain way. And therefore we quote, unquote, lie or disclose or. I mean, what's the word? Like when you don't lie but you don't say, you don't say the truth. What's that word? Why can't I think of that?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:33:54] Omission.

John Dehlin [01:33:55] Omission symbol.

Natasha Helfer [01:33:56] Thank you. Thank you. So we, we don't, we just don't say things. So I think, and I'm a little saddened that maybe the girlfriends can't see that a little bit more and instead of taking it so personally, say, maybe there's a bigger systemic issue here that we need. As, you know, as they're constantly saying they value good friendship, I think this is how women can be good friends to each other is instead of like, I'm pissed that you lied to me. It's like, what's happening here that, that honesty can't be more flowy. And what are you afraid of? Because usually lies have to do with fear.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] Love it.

Chelsea Homer [01:34:32] I, Yeah, I, I love that.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:34:34] And I feel like when I was watching these first couple episodes, I really see myself in Jen partially because so many of the women this season are very like assertive and spunky. And I think like when I was younger, I think Jen is just much softer, much more of a people pleaser, so obvious. And I think so much of the Mormonism is coming out that way through her. And I think like, I can see the younger version of myself in that and also in this, like, almost. And this is something I've actually tried to like, deconstruct. An almost inability to like to lie about really dumb things because I don't want to make anybody even a tiny bit uncomfortable, you know, And I think that's something that we see with Jen and she's getting called out for, but she almost doesn't know how to stop.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:35:19] And that felt very Mormon to me too. I remember thinking like, just like a really silly example, people will be like, hey, have you seen this? Movie, or I was like, oh, I love this movie so much. Have you seen it? And I'd be like, yeah, just instinct, you know, because I know they're excited about it, and I just wanted to, like, join in. And it's. There's no reason to lie about having seen a movie, but I think that so much of Jen in the conversation, we see her just saying, yes, that sounds great, or, oh, fun so many times. And they do all these, like, dramatic flashbacks.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:35:48] And I think the second episode of being like, see, we caught Jen Lyon because she seemed happy in this moment. And I think that's just, like, a really good example of this, like, people pleasing that she doesn't know how to get out of. And that feels so apparent in our culture overall. And it is, I agree, disappointing that, like, the other women who are a part of that culture, but that maybe have a little bit.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:36:10] Are a little bit more comfortable with. With conflict, maybe are. Are not offering her like that. That grace, which I think is one of the most disappointing parts of this whole series, is probably just the way Chelsea put it really well, just the way that the women are kind of fighting for the limited amount of power. And we see it kind of coming out, I think, in belittling Jen for pretty minor errors anyway.

Chelsea Homer [01:36:36] And that would have been a really powerful conversation if Jesse, Demi, and Jen were to get in a room and be like, tell us what's happening in your body. And because it could also be the power dynamics at home, she feels like she has to be one way with him, and then she can be a different way with her friends. You know, like the whole Chippendale Halloween thing, you know, she was, like, excited with her friends because maybe she would be more comfortable with this. But knowing Zach wouldn't like coming home and not wanting to have that conversation like, that makes perfect sense. Faith transitions.

Chelsea Homer [01:37:04] I think we're all chameleons, depending on who we are with at the time. So anyway, that could have been a really powerful moment if the three of them sat down and really, rather than just, like, taking Zach's side on everything, could have had that empowering female moment that they keep claiming is happening on the show.

Natasha Helfer [01:37:21] Well, and especially when I think many of them have had abusive dynamics.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:37:25] So that.

Natasha Helfer [01:37:26] But yeah, in general, women were not really. I mean, we. We are very close, and we are. We'll rally, but we are also the ones that will tear each other down the most. Women will tear women down more than men will. Women will tear women down. And that's. That's that's an offset of patriarchy because our own safety and our own resources are threatened by other women. And so that, that's a systemic thing that I know they're trying to fight that on this show. That's kind of like their mission. And I'm glad they keep talking about it because I'm hoping they'll be reminded of their values as they interact with one another.

Ketamine Therapy and Trauma Healing

John Dehlin [01:38:06] Well, I think we have time to maybe explore one more topic before we kind of have a hard stop. So since we've been talking about Jen and Zach, I think it might make sense to go ahead and talk about the ketamine little appointment that Jen and Zach had a little bit later in the episode.

John Dehlin [01:38:26] We've covered psychedelic use on Mormon stories. Historically. We did an episode with Stephanie Brinkerhoff that's like Mormon mom on mushrooms, but also I think I'd say over 50. You know, there's two super prevalent storylines that show up and almost everyone who applies to Mormon stories podcast. One is super dark. Pretty much every woman who's ever applied to Mormon stories has an abuse story in their story. Pretty much everyone or trauma story of some of some type. And, and I don't mean to be flippant about that, but the other is if they're ex Mormon, they've probably had some sort of psychedelic experience that normally they would describe as life changing.

John Dehlin [01:39:07] And so on the one hand, I have so many friends who just bear testimony with almost religious zeal about their mushroom experience, their ketamine experience, their ayahuasca experience, their even MDMA or the cactus. Native American peyote. Peyote. You know, so.

John Dehlin [01:39:34] So I am validating to all my Mormon and ex Mormon friends that testify to positive psychedelic experiences. And I, I don't know that the research is fully there. I think a lot of those experimentations are not necessarily with medical professionals and they're not necessarily done as evidence based treatment. And so I think. And they're almost all illegal, so I think we have to be careful about how we talk about this. Having said all that, and Natasha, as I understand it, last I heard, your Symmetry Solutions actually provides ketamine treatment. Is that right?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:40:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:40:14] Do you still do that?

Natasha Helfer [01:40:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:40:15] Okay.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:40:15] Yes.

Natasha Helfer [01:40:16] We got the training last February. We've been doing, we've been offering ketamine assisted psychotherapy and guiding counseling for a year and a half now. Almost loving it.

John Dehlin [01:40:27] So with all this context, Jen and Zach do a ketamine session together. And I'd love to hear what y' all think both about what you've experienced and. Or seen. But also with Jen and Zach's experience and maybe Chelsea, have. You go first on this one.

Chelsea Homer [01:40:51] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:40:51] If you want.

Chelsea Homer [01:40:52] Yeah. Watching it, it was funny because the online commentary is like, wow, these people can't drink coffee, but they can do ketamine. You know, just like trying to make sense of all of the things. And I think they were very transparent of like. I don't know if they said, like, the church doesn't quite endorse this, but

John Dehlin [01:41:06] it said somewhere that the church is great. It's a gray area. Yeah. Which is true. The church hasn't come out against psychedelics. In fact, I've met currently serving bishops and stake presidents that do psychedelic trips, so.

Chelsea Homer [01:41:18] Oh, yeah. Yeah. But it is definitely something that I've seen anecdotally that's been really, really helpful in the post Mormon space. It's been really helpful in my personal life. I think there's something like, about the somatic experience where talk therapy is helpful, but I think, you know, especially like with OCD or something where that could be like a neutralizing behavior, something that's out of body is really kind of an expansive experience. And it's looks like on the show that it was very connecting for both of them. You know, she asked him to come cuddle, which we were watching it in my backyard for an outdoor viewing, and everybody was booing because they didn't want, you know, people have a lot of

John Dehlin [01:41:53] feelings to go away.

Chelsea Homer [01:41:54] Well, yeah, I think, like, Zach does have a lot of healing to do. But anyway, it just looked like it was, like, really helpful that, like, they were reaching back into core memories that brought them a lot of joy and connection. And that has been my experience as well.

John Dehlin [01:42:09] So the one thing that Zach says that's triggering to me on behalf of the women that I've talked to coming out of Mormonism is this idea we were meant to be together. Right. Which is encoded as what, you know, like, priesthood wise or, like, inspiration wise. Why is that a problem? You said? Yes. Why is that a problem?

Chelsea Homer [01:42:26] Well, it feels like it was not even her choice. Like, it doesn't even feel like consent. It's like, this was the plan. You stick to the plan. Yeah, we agreed on this. And. And I think that line has been weaponized for a lot of women, especially, like dating and getting married where people will use prayer or their patriarchal blessings or something. This. This needs to happen. So, yeah, that's really off putting. And he does have a lot of those Mormon zingers in his pocket. Ready to go, Alyssa?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:42:53] Yeah. And I noticed that it was just interesting too. I just noticed that that was Jen's reaction also in that moment. I think that is just, you know, maybe what we reach to when we're feeling like, connection is like she said, oh, I prayed. I think it was the scene right where she said that she prayed.

Chelsea Homer [01:43:11] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:43:12] Like a month before they met and God brought them together. So anyway, I just thought that was like an interesting thing to note too. I don't have any more to really contribute about the ketamine element, but I do think, like. And I was also thinking, like, well, they were talking about. I guess I had mixed feelings on the. The way that they were talking about these memories because on the one hand I think that's beautiful. I'm really glad that they were able to, like, have this connective experience. It sounds like it's been really useful. I do have heard many people that talk about how useful it is. And I hope that. I don't think, like, relationship repair is necessarily built on, like, let's forget about all the shitty stuff that happened because we had a really fun time in Hawaii. So let's just focus on like.

Chelsea Homer [01:43:54] Like bypassing the healing process. Exactly.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:43:57] Yeah. So theoretically they're not bypassing the healing process because they're doing this, but we'll see, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:44:04] But Natasha, how about you?

Natasha Helfer [01:44:07] Yeah, I'm. I was glad to hear that they were open to that format of treatment and see what comes of it. Generally speaking, what I see come from it is an interruption of negative patterns. Right. And. And that would be helpful for them.

Natasha Helfer [01:44:22] And. And also maybe to be able to talk about certain things without the same visceral reactions. Right. Because ketamine in particular is a dissociative. And why it's so beneficial for trauma work, because we carry trauma very viscerally in our bodies. And so ketamine in some ways gives us a break from that and helps us to consider things outside of that trauma response that we is kind of with us 24 7. And so there, there. I'm not saying it's a magic pill. I don't think, like, you know, you take it and all of a sudden your life is dramatically different. It still takes a lot of things, but it does kind of calm a certain visceral reaction and it allows for different patterns to emerge.

Natasha Helfer [01:45:07] And I think it really lessens defensiveness. And I've used it with couples as well where I don't have them both on the ketamine at the same time. For me, that hasn't been as successful as having them witness each other on the ketamine and be able to have conversations that they wouldn't necessarily be able to have without a certain level of defensiveness. The defensiveness just comes way down. And that's been really, really powerful in work with couples.

John Dehlin [01:45:35] Love it. And I guess it's fair to say that trying to be balanced that number one, again, this is, this can be illegal. Although ketamine assisted therapy is legal.

Natasha Helfer [01:45:45] Yes. Right.

John Dehlin [01:45:46] And evidence based is that.

Natasha Helfer [01:45:47] Right? Right. Immune psilocybin is legal in Oregon. Right. So it depends on the state. And so finding out, like even cannabis, you know, is. It's medically legal here in the state of Utah. It's not recreationally legal. So. And I think that's why LDS folks in general are open to these kinds of treatments. Because even though, yeah, we're not okay with coffee, we are okay with a prescription. Right. And it's, it's kind of like why people are okay with getting an antidepressant instead of like drinking booze. Right. Or whatever it is. Which in that, in that case, I think that's probably a better choice to deal with depression.

Natasha Helfer [01:46:23] So we do have kind of a scientific friendly bias in LDS land. I wouldn't say it's always there, you know, like in sexuality, it's not there. We still can't normalize that masturbation is healthy for our bodies and for our psyches, even though there's plenty of research showing that. But I think when it comes to medicines in particular, people are more comfortable with that in LDS land.

John Dehlin [01:46:47] And do you have a sense, I know you care about evidence based treatments. Ketamine is. Ketamine treatment is evidence based to some degree, yes.

Natasha Helfer [01:46:56] Otherwise it wouldn't be approved, obviously. So it's very evidence based for depression, for suicidality. And it's also garnering quite a bit of evidence for trauma, which is why I was so interested in it, working with so much sexual and religious trauma in my practice.

John Dehlin [01:47:13] And I hope you all are all okay with me saying that experimentation, casual experimentation with psychedelics can have negative consequences as well. And so you don't just want to think, I'm just gonna do all the psychedelics because they're gonna help fix all my problems. Correct? There's risks.

Natasha Helfer [01:47:31] Yeah, there are. I mean, there's like, people call them bad trips, you know, and, and that can be scary and, and difficult and again, depending on the context and who is guiding you and where you're at. And I think there's a lot of things to be intentional and careful about with any substance.

John Dehlin [01:47:50] Yeah, beautiful. All right, so we, I think we have time for one more quick topic. Let's not, let's not have an episode without talking about Taylor a little bit. Is that okay? Alyssa's here for that.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:48:01] It's like Taylor is like the main woman here.

Confrontation, Conflict, and Mormon Social Dynamics

John Dehlin [01:48:04] So let's, let's quickly talk about Taylor's confrontation of Jenna at Macy's house. So who wants to set this up? Or do you all want me to set this up? Basically, do you want to. Alyssa?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:48:17] Either way, go for it. Yeah, basically that's the background last season. We end with Macy calling a woman named Jenna who we know had had some sort of relationship with Dakota, who is Taylor's baby daddy. Dakota and Taylor had a big discussion. Basically Taylor was saying, if you had been with Dakota any or if you had been with Jenna at any point during our relationship, then I'm done. And Dakota was adamant that he had not. But then we find out that this woman named Jenna appears in the picture and the timeline is blurry and so they decide to meet. And so Jenna comes over to Macy's

John Dehlin [01:48:56] house and is it fair to say it's sort of Taylor confronting a possible, quote, other woman to her, the husband, the father of her children. Potentially very explosive. Yeah, right.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:49:13] And the dynamic between the three women, I was very impressed. I think they did a great job at not villainizing Jenna, not making her seem like, like home wrecker or whatever that like Dakota is the one who was in the relationship. He was the one who, who owed Taylor anything. You know, Jenna may. It seemed like she didn't even understand know that Dakota was with anybody else. Anyway, basically Jenna hands Taylor her phone and Taylor looks through the messages and the timeline and realizes that Dakota had

John Dehlin [01:49:47] lied quite a bit, that basically he had, I think had sex with Taylor at least three times in a one week period in the evenings while sort of hanging out with Jenna during the day. And this comes out in future episodes in a very heartbreaking way.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:50:06] And Taylor's just really. She, she responds she's extremely devastated. It's a hard moment to watch. It seems like she's having like a really visceral, just devastated reaction. And, and Macy and Jenna are there and I think respond as well as they know how, especially Jenna considering she was. It was a situationship, I guess, gone horribly wrong. And yeah, it's, it's hard watch. But also it was good to see the women, I think like not pitting themselves against each other, which I think is something that Taylor, just by and large, I. It's continues to do throughout. Everything is standing up for the other women and not like she. She's, I think, one of the only one who like maintains her girl's girl throughout.

John Dehlin [01:50:51] Yeah, I just loved it that Jenna and Taylor were able to constructively talk through it and realize who the problem probably was.

Chelsea Homer [01:50:57] Yeah, they can see the heat at Dakota's feet, which is really nice to see. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:02] Chelsea, your additional thoughts on. On that?

Chelsea Homer [01:51:06] No, I. I think that it was. Yeah, it was a good transactional. Like she was just checking the receipts. Like, Jenna was very quick to offer her phone, which I don't think a lot of people would be doing that. But yeah, just going through. And I think, you know, it was heartbreaking to watch Taylor just confess like how much she loves him and. And just feels betrayed. And I know Dakota later says that he was lying to protect her feelings, which is. I don't know, just. That feels kind of like a very Mormon response of just not being able to have these hard conversations. And it's hard because it was like a whole season worth of just milking this drama.

Chelsea Homer [01:51:40] I'm really glad they pinned it in that first episode so we can just move on to other things. But, yeah, it is really hard. And the barbecue scene, which I'm sure we'll talk about another episode. Yeah, that's where I think it really boils over. That's where the heart of the conversation truly lies.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:51:54] Yeah, I do think it starts a little bit in they go right after this pre barbecue scene. The explosiveness within Taylor's family kind of starts when she's just talking with just her mom. She like tells her mom, I had a conversation with Jenna. This is what happened. And Taylor's mom is. Her just initial reaction is extremely unsympathetic. And I think it is based on like, well, you know, you had sex. I think she said, like, Taylor's crying and is saying like, I don't know what to do. And I thought things were getting better. And she's just in like a real moment of sadness. And her mom's gut reaction is, this is why we told you not to. Not to have sex. And it's just really. It's a hard watch and it just gets worse as the series progresses.

John Dehlin [01:52:40] So stay tuned for our discussion of Taylor and her family. Natasha, any quick thoughts on this scene?

Natasha Helfer [01:52:48] Yeah, I think this whole scenario is very Mormon, unfortunately. My understanding. You can tell me if I'm wrong because I. I'm probably not as up to date on the details, but it seems to me like the betrayal happened between Taylor and Dakota really within the first week or two of them dating, which I, I find very Mormon. Why are you, why are you owing each other anything in the first two weeks of knowing each other?

John Dehlin [01:53:15] Why is that?

Natasha Helfer [01:53:17] Why do you, why do you owe some unless you have specifically agreed that you're going to be exclusive after the first date or two or three. Why is that? Just assumed. So I, I, I do, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:53:29] I mean in Mormonism you're a virgin until you get married.

Natasha Helfer [01:53:32] Well, right. So we don't ask me why is that?

John Dehlin [01:53:34] We don't know how to deal with.

Natasha Helfer [01:53:35] Right.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:53:35] No.

John Dehlin [01:53:36] Anything more complex than don't have sex until you're married.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:53:38] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:53:39] I think that we over commit or expect an over commitment way too early. Where really nobody is owed that. This is ownership model. This is I, you, you decided to have sex with me. I now own you in certain ways. Right. I own certain you don't, you don't get to have privacy around other issues. But in my understanding not to throw Dakota or Taylor into the box because maybe they did, but I don't, I never heard that there was an agreement of exclusivity or an agreement of any sort of. But it's all being filtered through again, the slut shaming thing for Taylor, which is awful. And I think for Dakota it's being filtered through this. Oh no, I can tell now that somebody's upset with me. And what do Mormon men do with when somebody's upset with their sexuality? They lie about it.

John Dehlin [01:54:24] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:54:24] I mean these are very typical Mormon things. And what's the solution according like you say to the, you know, we'll just don't have sex with people. But that's not, that totally ignores Taylor's adulthood and her ability to want to have sex at whatever time frame she wants to have sex. Right. And so there's just so many deep problems here that I think are just based on kind of cultural expectations of when and when you shouldn't have sex if you're having sex. What does that automatically mean in an agreement space? Whereas kind of in mainstream culture, people are having sex with a variety of people while they're dating.

Natasha Helfer [01:55:00] And then eventually three to six months down the road people might say, hey, is this, Are we kind of ready to become exclusive? And that's a conversation instead of just an assumption. So the lying and the agreements and the, the, the ongoing kind of expectations, I think are messed up from day one. And why it's causing this problem Just a quick.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:55:21] Just like I asked a quick question. Taylor was really upset because she'd basically said, like, you need to tell me whether or not this relationship happened. And he lied. Do you think that because it was early, like, what's your. What's your take on the honesty element?

Natasha Helfer [01:55:34] I think, I think his two good things that he could have said was, it's none of your business. Because it isn't. Because she did not make any agreements with him. Or two, Yeah, I. I have been seeing some other people. Is that something we need to change?

Natasha Helfer [01:55:51] Those would have been two. Correct. You know, like, ways that he could have come back to her. The lying was stupid because now they have. Now the betrayal isn't really about what happened the first two weeks. Now the betrayal is that he's been lying to her for like a year and a half or however long he's been lying to her. Right. And this is the same, like, with the pornography dilemma that we have in Mormonism. Right. And this is the same with, like, so many things that we're like, but you owe me this.

Natasha Helfer [01:56:16] You owe me my comfort is how we function in Mormon relationships. And you owe me every part of your honesty. We don't have any room for privacy. What makes a two week relationship where I owe you now all the information about what I'm doing with my other dating spaces. That's a very Mormon thing.

Natasha Helfer [01:56:37] So I'm not. I'm not. I understand why Taylor's upset. I understand why she had those reactions and why she had those expectations. I also understand why Dakota's like, oh, no, I'm in trouble. Plus, he has this whole history of being an addict, which right there. The relationship with lying and secrecy is very profound. And I'm sure he has much more work to do in that department of his life. So it kind of created this background where both of them were not really equipped to have an emotionally intelligent and sexually agreed upon realities of what they were doing together from the get go.

Chelsea Homer [01:57:15] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:57:17] Because we don't know how to do that.

Chelsea Homer [01:57:18] I know.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:57:19] And then the.

Chelsea Homer [01:57:19] I think that. I think the crime, though, was the lying and the deleting the text messages and stuff. And that is like, if they could just get it to the root of what you were talking about, that that would really absolve the last season worth of drama.

Natasha Helfer [01:57:31] Yeah. I wish they could have really, instead of getting super defensive, like, get more curious and really understand, okay, well, what was my role in this? What was your role in this? What do we both need to. What do we want Going forward, how do we commit to that if we want it right? And how do we avoid these kinds of disasters? Because I do see a lot of love between them and I see a lot of commitment, especially to their child.

Natasha Helfer [01:57:56] I see a lot of strengths in both of them. I just wish they would have had more. Like, this is where I would have told them, you know, you can blame each other all you want, but can we blame the system that raised both of you to leaving you completely ill equipped to have these conversations and to have a healthy onboarding of a relationship, especially if you're going to have sex fairly early on, which is not trashy?

Closing Thoughts and Guest Plugs

John Dehlin [01:58:24] Well, unfortunately, we're right at the time we need to end. Let me just say really quickly, we've got again, 800 people joining us live and thousands will watch this. If 5 or 10,000 of you could just take a second to like this episode, we know tens of thousands of you will end up watching it. If a few thousand of you will just like this episode, share it, comment on it, even after the live stream's over, it will help this episode go viral. And then a lot of other people will be able to benefit from the wisdom that Chelsea, Alyssa, and Natasha have shared with us today.

John Dehlin [01:58:57] So please do that really quickly. Chelsea, can you give a final shout out? You know, the one thing I'm thinking is I'm grateful to these secret lies of Mormon wives, women and to Hulu for bringing a spotlight to these really core issues.

John Dehlin [01:59:16] There's still a part of me that's sad. Number one, at the absurdity of sort of the reality TV layer that has to be imposed on it. That is probably a turn off for a lot of people. And as we'll discuss in future episodes, I question the ethics of what this is really doing to the mental health of the people involved, to the marriages and the relationships of the people involved, not to mention the children, the extended, the family, the people involved. Like, what I wish is that Hulu or Amazon or Netflix would like, come to Chelsea and Alyssa, Natasha, and say, let's do a Secret Lives of Lost and Found Wives.

John Dehlin [01:59:52] And Chelsea and Natasha, Chelsea and Natasha will be the consulting advisors. And instead of the absurdity, you know, and the ridiculousness of some of this reality TV baggage, which I know is also the candy that makes people want to watch. But there's a part of me that feels like these topics are so important, so serious, I wish they could be explored in a mass media way without the ridiculousness and the potential abuse. You were looking at me, Alyssa. Are you saying you wouldn't want to watch it?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:00:27] No, I would want to watch it. I like healthy people, too. Yeah. I mean, I love watching dysfunction, but I love watching people make progress. That's great.

John Dehlin [02:00:35] So are you. Are you. Are you consenting?

Chelsea Homer [02:00:37] We'd have to go to Utah Lake and do the coming out of the water with white dress.

John Dehlin [02:00:48] So you are. You are consenting to a lost.

Chelsea Homer [02:00:51] Absolutely not. I feel like that it's just so hard to do that safely. And it's also a personality thing. Like, just.

John Dehlin [02:01:02] Yeah, it'd be cool, right?

Chelsea Homer [02:01:04] There's a lot of amazing stories and lost and found. That is for sure.

John Dehlin [02:01:07] Okay, so please plug the girls camp camps as well as anything else you want to plug really quick.

Chelsea Homer [02:01:15] Yeah. So we're hosting. This is our third year doing it. We're doing a Reclaiming Girls camp in September, the first weekend of September and October.

John Dehlin [02:01:22] And the fun things that happen are.

Chelsea Homer [02:01:23] And we have amazing, amazing workshops and fun, like skits. It's all the fun parts of camp. It can. It's very rowdy and fun and. And it's overnight. It's at Camp Tracy. So the Cub Scout campground that none of us were able to go to

John Dehlin [02:01:37] growing up, that's in Salt Lake, for

Chelsea Homer [02:01:38] those who don't know, Mill Creek Canyon. And all the meals will be catered. Everything. It's going to be such a good time. We had a couple hundred people up there last year. Mindy Gledhill came last year. But just like concerts and anyway, it's just a lot of people miss, like singing up in the mountains, doing crafts and having fun, being irreverent.

John Dehlin [02:01:58] And you've announced some cool people that have committed to come, right?

Chelsea Homer [02:02:01] Yes, yes. Amy Alabaster is going to be teaching us a workshop. Both. Both camps. It's like, put you on the spot. Yeah. I'm trying to think of all the other people we have. Yeah. Play camps. We have, like self defense camps. So it's going to be very bottoms, if you've seen that movie, very clear coded. We have how to get involved with mutual aid discussions and how to serve in a way that's not propelling this white savior thing that we've all learned how to do in Mormonism. Yeah. Anyway, it's just going to be really fun. We're going to have a drag show. And anyway, there's just a lot. You can see it on our page. We've highlighted all the people who will be involved.

John Dehlin [02:02:41] So the link is.

Chelsea Homer [02:02:42] So it's LostAndFound Club is our website. But yeah, Lost and Found club on Instagram and we have reels of previous camp, so you kind of get a taste of what it looked like. We also helped Dear Mormon Me. She'll be catering coffee for us, customized coffee cups and stuff. So it's going to be really fun.

John Dehlin [02:03:00] Well, Chelsea, thanks for coming on Mormon Stories. We always love having you hope when it works for your life and situation. We'd love to have you back.

Chelsea Homer [02:03:09] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:03:10] Alyssa, how do people follow your cool stuff? And you may be either not available soon or you may be live streaming from a hospital.

Chelsea Homer [02:03:20] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:03:20] I told John. I was like, I love this, this show so much. If I'm in labor with my baby, I'm like, I will just put like a little screen or oven. Just like Whitney.

Chelsea Homer [02:03:31] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:03:32] And I'll be like, okay. But this episode was crazy.

Natasha Helfer [02:03:36] Give me a moment,

Chelsea Homer [02:03:39] please.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:03:40] I've got some more. Someone else. Yeah. So that's fun. Yeah, just, I mean, I'm on. I'm on Instagram just at Alyssa with Deck, but my website is alyssa@beck.com. i just have links to publications on there and that's mostly up to date.

Chelsea Homer [02:03:54] She's an amazing writer, so.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:03:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:56] And List likes words.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:03:58] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [02:03:58] On Tick Tock and Instagram.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:04:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:04:01] Okay. Yeah, no Instagram, just Tick Tock.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:04:05] Well, technically, yeah. I just haven't updated. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] All right. Well, Alyssa, I love having you as well. So thank you so much for coming on.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:04:14] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:04:15] And Natasha, plug the heck out of you and symmetry solutions if you want. Maybe you don't want to.

Natasha Helfer [02:04:21] Of course I want to. Of course. I have a fabulous team and we're symmetry counseling now because I guess the algorithms thought we were a tech company.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:04:28] Oh, really?

Natasha Helfer [02:04:29] So we're symmetry counseling, but still symmetry. And we have amazing people all trained in religious trauma. All many of them training to become sex therapists. Some of them already are. So I'm very, very proud of my team as far as these topics that we talk about today. So I have a reclaiming female sexuality group coming up. I have a, you know, healing from male sexual shame group coming up. And not only a group, but a ketamine experience where several men will come and we'll do a group experience with ketamine on healing a lot of these sexual shame messages. I have an ethical non monogamy group coming up in August as well as a mixed orientation marriage group also coming up in August.

John Dehlin [02:05:07] Because that's how you or your partner is queer.

Natasha Helfer [02:05:10] Yeah. Like one of you is maybe either coming out or you've known all along that one of you is not necessarily, you know, heterosexual. And, and yet you find yourself in a heterosexual relational structure and what do you do about that? You know, and whether or not, you know, there's so many complex issues about that, like whether we stay together or not and how. And so those are. I just come up with a lot of the groups of all the things we're all struggling with. So check us out. It's simcounseling.com counseling or natasha helfer.com and you can also follow me on social media. I'm Natasha Helfer, MFT, pretty much on everything like TikTok, Instagram, Facebook.

John Dehlin [02:05:47] So beautiful. All right, well, thanks so much. Thanks to our staff that makes all this possible. Thanks to all of you, our live listeners. We want to do, I want to do at least three to five, if not ten of these episodes because it seems like a lot. But at the same time, these episodes are dense with really important, crucial topics. So I think there's more than 10 episodes worth of discussions. So count on those in the days, weeks and months ahead, we'll have these women or others on to the extent of their availability.

John Dehlin [02:06:20] So watch out for that. Thanks, Hulu and the women of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and the men, I guess, for their willingness to be fodder for these discussions. And then again, I just want to end by saying thanks to our donors that make Mormon stories possible. We couldn't do without you. If you value this type of content and you want to see continue, the best way you can do that is by going to MormonStories.org, clicking on the donate button, becoming a monthly donor.

John Dehlin [02:06:47] You can also super chat donate through YouTube. But then even if you can't support us financially, liking these episodes, subscribing to the channel, sharing it, commenting, all helps with the algorithm. So that's it for today. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other.

John Dehlin [02:07:03] Tune in again for another coverage of Secret Lies of Mormon Wives Season 2, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast.

Natasha Helfer [02:07:10] Take care of.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.