Mormon Stories: End of Year Special

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. This is a special end of year edition of Mormon Stories podcast. It is December 22, 2025. We're three days from Christmas, and we thought it would be super fun to do a live stream, to pull together a panel of fun people and to discuss the future of Mormonism. We've got a bunch of special guests with us today. We are live streaming. So we, we look forward to those of you who have joined us live, commenting or asking questions. Please do those as super chats to make sure that we see them. But most importantly, we're going to have a lot of fun today. So today, joining us in studio, rejoining us in studio is Roger Hendricks. Some of you who are longtime Mormon Stories aficionados. Is that a word will remember Roger. Roger Hendricks is a former bishop, he's a former Stake presidency member, he's a former CES director in Southern California, and he is a former member of the board of directors of the Deseret Trust Company.

Mormon Stories

Roger Hendrix [00:01:12] Right.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] Called by the Gordon B. Hinckley that oversees or at least oversaw at the time, a lot of the church assets. But we did. How many hours do we do with you, Roger, on Mormon Stories all together in your original episode?

Roger Hendrix [00:01:27] About, oh, wow, six, seven hours. Is that does that.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] It might have been even 10, but it was a lot. But yeah, that was a great episode. And then we had you back to do the future of Mormonism a few years ago. Is that right there?

Roger Hendrix [00:01:40] It was three more hours.

John Dehlin [00:01:42] Yeah.

Roger Hendrix [00:01:43] And so if the former one was 10 and the last one was 3, 13. A lot. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] Yeah. And Roger is a dear friend. We hang out every once in a while and catch a University of Utah football game or grab dinner. And anyway, one of the coolest things about Roger, besides the fact that he's super smart, is that he has friendships and in the past has also had friendships of people who are at the center of power and decision making in the church. So Roger, just say, either through his experience or past or current friendships, has information and insights that the average member might not have. Is that fair to say, Roger?

Roger Hendrix [00:02:33] Maybe. Maybe. We'll see.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] And so we're excited to have Roger back with us. And then we've got a panel of faces that should be familiar to you all by now. We have Brooklyn Alden back. Hey, Brooklyn.

Panelists: Brooklyn, Nemo, Roger

Julia [00:02:49] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] Brooklyn's joining us from the UK and she does editing for us. She's been working with us for what, five years? Brooklyn.

Roger Hendrix [00:02:58] Six.

Brooklyn Alden [00:02:58] Yeah, about five years. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:00] Yeah, but it's Brooklyn, Alden Anything you want to say by way of introduction?

Brooklyn Alden [00:03:03] Brooklyn, I think that's good. You know, I worked with John for about five years. I'm usually not in front of the camera, but happy to be here to comment on this topics. It sounds super interesting to me and I'm excited to hear what Roger. Roger has to say.

John Dehlin [00:03:19] All right. Oh, well, yeah. And you're. You're a full fledged panelist.

Brooklyn Alden [00:03:24] Okay, I'll do my best.

John Dehlin [00:03:27] We also have Nemo the Mormon with us. Hey, Nemo.

Nemo [00:03:30] Hello. Hello. How are we?

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Great. Thanks for joining us. Kind of last minute.

Nemo [00:03:34] Yeah. When you get a text from John Dehlin in the car saying Nemo, come on the live stream, you're like, okay, I guess that's what I'm doing now.

John Dehlin [00:03:42] Well, we're glad to have you, Nemo joining us as Nemo the Mormon who has an amazing YouTube channel support Nemo. And then we have Julia.

Roger Hendrix [00:03:52] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] Hey, Julia.

Julia [00:03:54] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] Julia, of course, is analyzing Mormonism on TikTok and Instagram and elsewhere. You've got a YouTube channel too, right, Julia?

Julia [00:04:03] Yeah, yeah. And a website that I try to keep updated. But I'm really excited for Roger today because, like, this is. I don't know, he seems like to have a whole slew of knowledge.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] Yeah, yeah. Roger's the real deal. Without any further ado, Roger, let's go ahead and have you open with any opening thoughts you have. I've got a bunch of topics that we can drill into, but it's been an interesting year, 2025. And what would you want to say at the outset as a keen observer of all things Mormon?

An Interesting Year for Mormonism

Roger Hendrix [00:04:39] Well, I think Mormonism is. Mormonism is turning an interesting corner. It's. It's emphasis on the atonement has become. Has become eventful for it and for the members worth talking about and analyzing. I think that's probably the biggest thing. John. Whoa.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] So you want to start with the church's emphasis on the atonement? Let's start there. What, what insider thoughts do you have there? I had no idea we were going to start with that topic. Tell us what you mean.

Roger Hendrix [00:05:26] Neither did I, but it was the first thing that came to mind. I think things really changed when Russell Nelson announced that we no longer use the word Mormon or LDS to describe ourselves. We're members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And as a result of that, I remember the last time you and I were together, it was your words that you know, less Joseph Smith, more Jesus. And that is really the truth. And I think the church has made some positive steps in that direction and it's worth talking about.

General Conference 2017: More Indention in Jesus Than Joseph Smith

John Dehlin [00:06:22] Nemo, I know that you, if I'm understanding right, Nemo, you normally do sort of reviews of general conference each six months and you historically have tracked the mentioning of Joseph Smith's name versus Jesus's. Is that right? You've historically tracked that.

Nemo [00:06:46] Okay, not quite so. And this is something that it seems nitpicky, but it is important I track direct quotes of these individuals. So who's quoted more? Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith or Russell M. Nelson? Okay, Jesus Christ wins in mentions every year pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:07:03] Okay, have you seen like as Roger talks about an increased emphasis in Jesus that would imply potentially decreased emphasis in Joseph Smith. Do you have any observations in that regard?

Nemo [00:07:19] I've seen that relationship and definitely there was that talk by Dallin H. Oaks a few conferences ago where he seemingly as a bit of a middle finger to me, it felt like almost just quoted Jesus Christ. He just went through and quoted him.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] So Nemo, in your mind, Dallin H. Oaks is preparing for general conference and he's like, how do I stick it to Nemo? I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to mention Jesus Christ so much that it makes Nemo mad. That's not narcissistic at all, Nemo.

Nemo [00:07:47] Not, not me, but those that accuse the church of, you know, not focusing on the words of Jesus. Those that accuse the church are focusing on Russell M. Nelson instead. So like people like me rather than me specifically, you know.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] No, I'm totally teasing you, Nemo. Let's have fun here today. But, but, but, but do you agree with Roger that, that. Oh yeah, that there's a trend and

Nemo [00:08:13] I think particularly with Russell M. Nelson gone, speaking of narcissism, I think we will see less need for, for people to feel as though people will feel less need to quote down their jokes. They might start to, but I feel like some quiet words will be had that, hey, you know, you don't really need to maybe focus on Jesus a bit more instead. And I wouldn't be surprised if over the next few conferences we see a decrease in just quoting the current prophet and more focus on Jesus Christ. Particularly because Dalai Lake jokes himself led the way in that talk by quoting Jesus so heavily. So I feel like the stumbling block to that fully being embraced. As much as Russell M. Nelson got rid of the nickname Mormon and put that emphasis on Jesus Christ, I think he, him, he himself and his ego or just the fact that he didn't tell people not to when they constantly quoted him. I think that in itself was a stumbling block, that maybe he couldn't see himself, but was a stumbling block to making it fully Christ focused. Because there was a lot of focus seemingly on the current prophet of the church because people felt the need to quote him and kind of kiss up to him a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Well, let me just ask, like, one of the frustrations I have or observations I have with let's just say ex Mormons is they'll complain for years that in this case the church worships Joseph Smith and doesn't mention Jesus enough. And then when the church actually makes the change and starts focusing on Jesus, they'll find some other cynical complaint about it. Can we all agree, as a panel and Roger, I'll have you start, but can't we just all agree that this is maybe a really good step, a good step for the world and a smart step for the church? What do you think, Roger?

Roger Hendrix [00:09:58] Well, I think it's a very smart step. In preparation for today, my mind kind of went in two directions. One, it was going back to the last time we had an interview, and I quoted Eric Hoffer, the author of the True Believer, who basically was a sociological scholar who dissected mass movements, and probably the greatest mass movement in American history was the birth of Mormonism and then its trek westward. And he basically said, guys who develop a great movement usually have three distinct characters. One is the visionary, the other is the true believer, and the third is the practical man and means. And that's the one I quoted last time. John and Eric Hoffer said Joseph Smith was really a visionary for the Mormon movement, and Brigham Young was the true believer who cracked the whip and made it work in the Salt Lake Valley. And then the rest of us were practical people of means who made it work on an everyday basis. And so hopefully we never forget Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. And you know, as in terms of scholarship, Joseph Smith is a big player. Brigham Young is equally big. And Mormonism was the great migration and religious movement in American history. So we don't want to forget that. And I have a second part I want to introduce today about having a better understanding of where we are in the here and now with the idea that we want to put to the side a little bit Joseph Smith. We want to emphasize Jesus and the atonement. And so I have another model that I'd like to introduce that helps us understand, in my opinion, the movement of Mormonism in the Western part of the United States and then spread out all over the world, whether you agree with it or disagree with it, it's a historic time, a historic movement forward. In terms of the history of religious movements, that's where I'd like to go.

The Great Movements of America

Mormonism and the Clash of Civilizations

John Dehlin [00:13:21] Go ahead.

Roger Hendrix [00:13:23] Well, my. One of my favorite authors or scholars is a guy by the name of Samuel P. Cunnington, the author of the Clash of Civilizations. And he basically said that around the middle of the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, the big clash between capitalism and communism came to an end. And, and at that point, with the end of those two movements, that kind of, that, that it was. That's what occupied people for 50 years in America and around the world. And what they said, everybody kind of followed their rule. Whether you were a part of the Soviet Union or whether you were part of the American movement. Well, as the Soviet Union fell, according to Huntington, the world broke up into eight new or maybe even old civilizations. And if you want to understand the clash of the new civilizations that we're now living in, he broke up the world into eight distinct parts, which are driven in part by the historic religious movements. And in America, we were characterized as Western Christianity. And it became extra. Extremely successful. The Enlightenment was born from Western Christianity, and so. And, and Mormonism was born in the nest of Western Christianity. And so if you wanted to understand the movement of the world today, all you have to do is look at those eight distinct parts and how they are merging or conflicting. And that's what I wanted to share today.

How are Western Christianity and Islam conflicting?

John Dehlin [00:16:10] Okay, so how are they. How are they conflicting?

Roger Hendrix [00:16:16] Well, all we have to. For example, the Middle east is characterized by the birth of. The birth of. What's the big religious movement?

Nemo [00:16:32] Islam.

Roger Hendrix [00:16:33] Islam is the birth of Islam. And now you see how Islam has become violent and it has started making its move on the different areas of the world with its violence and its attempt to establish itself as a great religious movement, which it is. And, and so if you, if you think of America and Western Europe as the cradle of Western Christianity, and you think of the Middle east as the birthplace of Islam, you begin to understand the conflict that is taking place between us, Western Christianity and them, Islam. And then you look at the different parts of the world. For example, Russia, according to Huntington, was the birthplace of Russian Orthodoxy. And if you look at China, you know, the great Cynic movement or Confucianism was born there, and really Buddhism was born there. And so you go around to the different parts of the world and you see that they are colliding with one another. And so to understand the dynamics of the conflict now, you have to understand the clashes of these civilizations. And one of the great movements in Western Christianity in the 19th and the 20th century has been the birth of Mormonism, which is now making its move forward. It has a enough members and it has enough history beside it that when it.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] And enough money, enough power and money,

Roger Hendrix [00:18:49] well, it is the richest religion in the world. It's the religion. It's the richest movement of any kind in the world. And so if you see Mormonism as taking its place among the great religious movements within Western Christianity and how they relate with places like the Middle east, which is the birth of Islam and Russia or and China, which is Cynic or Buddhism, Confucianism, you begin to understand the world in which we now live. And, and, and so I became interested in that. So much so that here I am today talking about it.

Roger Waters on the LDS Church

John Dehlin [00:19:42] So, Roger, I'm curious. I'm not maybe as plugged in as you like. I don't see in my everyday observations of Mormonism, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints really playing on the world stage as a major player. And I'm not saying my perceptions are true. I'm just admitting what my perceptions are, which is this is a Utah church that does have influence in Washington D.C. when it wants to, but it's a bunch of nonagenarians probably over their heads trying to manage this, what, half a trillion dollar church that's in some ways in decline. And so between them being so old and the church being so big and rich and so many assets they can barely, they can't even build the temples they announce. They can't even keep members from hemorrhaging. So I don't think of the current LDS church as being like a global power rivaling Islam or even the Catholic Church or evangelical Christianity. Do you have insight that I don't? And, or do you have examples? Because my mind doesn't even go there.

Roger Hendrix [00:21:07] Right. Just to make things more honest, I joined John Dylan's fraternity. I've had my own points of disagreement with the church, and mine is over the very conservative way in which it has treated LGBT plus issues. And so I had, in 1995, I think it was, yeah, 1995, I had come back from Chile as a mission president, and the first thing I get hit with is this, this document that, that talks about the eternal family. And what it is, is it's a chop job on gays. And, and so from that point I started having stressful relationships in my, in my own involvement with the church to the point that I decided to take a sabbatic over. And. And so I don't come as one who is defending the church. I'm trying to find out basically, what is the impact of the church, if anything, anywhere in the world. And so with that, I want to start with Africa. I think that I picked. Oh, my goodness. How many states or countries are there in Africa? They're either 45 or 54.

Members of the Church of Africa

John Dehlin [00:23:06] Between 40 and 60 African countries.

Roger Hendrix [00:23:10] African countries. The population is 1.2 billion. And so it rivals China, it rivals India. But interestingly enough, there's a flexibility in African culture. And the church got started there, has become increasingly successful baptizing thousands. It's almost reached the million member mark. And.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] Wait, you're saying there's almost a million.

Roger Hendrix [00:23:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:48] Members of record in Africa?

Roger Hendrix [00:23:49] Yeah, 933,000 to be exact. Whoa.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] Panel, did y' all know that. That Africa's almost.

Roger Hendrix [00:23:56] No, I don't know.

Nemo [00:23:58] But then is that. I find that really interesting as a percentage split, because the church is claiming, you know, a good 17 and a half million members, and yet they keep saying, oh, we're growing in Africa, we're regrowing Africa. And yeah, they are, but actually the implication is, oh, okay, they're starting to make up a vast majority of the members, but they're not. They're still, you know, 1/17 of the overall membership of the church. They're probably far more active as a percentage, and they're definitely growing. But do we know.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] Do we know that African, even recent African converts are more active than the average member or convert? Like, it's very possible. They have 10% or less retention rates. Like in your mission in Chile that you oversaw, Roger, when relatives of mine

Nemo [00:24:47] are serving in Africa, they spent a lot of time gathering up, you know, people who joined the church, said, yes, I'll get baptized, got baptized, and then never went back again. But my sense is that that's not happening anymore. From. From people I know who have been serving in places like Kenya and other parts of Africa. It seems that retention is slightly better now.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] Okay.

Nemo [00:25:06] It used to be. I'm not saying it's perfect. And you're right, there probably is still a good proportion of inactivity and poor retention, but it's not the case as it was in. In. In the past, anecdotally, anyway.

Roger Hendrix [00:25:19] Yeah, let's go. Let's follow on that. Let's just take a base. That worldwide activity in the church is about 20% of its membership.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] Is that your. Is that your position, Roger?

Roger Hendrix [00:25:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] So one out of five that the church claims as a member of record is actually attending or self describing his LDS.

Roger Hendrix [00:25:47] Right now it could go as high as 25%. But let's just take a baseline that's a conservative baseline of 20% activity, and

John Dehlin [00:25:58] let me do the math. Is that 3.4 million right around there?

Roger Hendrix [00:26:02] Okay, and I'd back that. But, but, but in Africa, they. If it's 20% worldwide, it's probably 25 to 30% in Africa. In other words, there is greater activity on a normative basis in Africa than maybe in other places. The church has been extremely successful. Now there, there are reasons for that that we can get into, but the church is considered a player, a big player in African religious movements in sub Sahara Africa, sub Saharan Africa, as opposed to Northern Africa, which is Islam or Muslim. And so I isolated on one country in Africa to try and understand the, the Mormonism in that country. And I picked Nigeria because it has a fascinating history ultimately with Western Christianity, some good, some bad. It was one of the launching points of slavery. Not the main one by any stretch of the imagination, but it's one of those west coast African nations. Nigeria is famous for its oil production and probably just about the richest country in Africa. The church is, for example, the first quarter of this year, they had 11,000 baptisms in one quarter. So. And that's with an all African missionary corps.

Understanding the Latter-Day Saints in Nigeria

John Dehlin [00:28:12] Okay, wait, is that. How many stakes would that be in a quarter?

Nemo [00:28:18] 7,000? Well, yeah, 22 stakes. Roughly.

Roger Hendrix [00:28:22] Well, the. If it. If 11,000. And let's just say there are 2200 per steak. That would be five, six steaks for

John Dehlin [00:28:34] five stakes in a quarter.

Roger Hendrix [00:28:36] Right?

John Dehlin [00:28:36] In one country.

Roger Hendrix [00:28:38] In one country.

John Dehlin [00:28:39] Wow.

How to Get a College Degree with Venmo

John Dehlin [00:29:42] NA the only thing I'm going to say as you get a drink of water is that again, I wonder how much we're speculating versus maybe you have some insider knowledge, which is partly why we brought you on. Because it could very well be that recent converts stay at a 5% level in sub Saharan Africa. You know, but I don't know. I mean, obviously when the church announces new missions or new stakes, it almost seems like half of the new missions and half of the new stakes that the Church creates are in Africa. So clearly there's some substantive growth.

Roger Hendrix [00:30:24] Yes, the, the last time that I was here I mentioned that and it came as a revelation to many people. My, some of my old missionary buddies were, were had been mission presidents called me up on that. You know, why didn't I spend more time talking about the great religious movements in, in, in south and Central America? Well, the great movements really for Mormonism is in Africa. The leadership of the Church want to spread that out because it's a worldwide religion. It's just not a religion of Africa. But Africa is on fire with the Church. And there are reasons why the activity rate is, is higher there than the, the Norman, the normative level of 20% where it goes 25, 30%. And one of the things that has really been very successful for Mormonism in Africa, in the country of Nigeria has, has been the degree granting program that the Church has started there in Africa where a person, BYU Pathways, BYU Pathway where a young person or any person really can get a certificate, can get an associate of arts degree and can get a bachelor's degree. And this is something that the, the church has been successful that if you don't have the fundamentals, you know, develop, they'll take you and help you with the fundamentals so that you can qualify for getting a college degree. And they have been very successful at the programs of the church where you take a young African, you start him in primary, let's take a young male, you put him in the priesthood from there, you help him with his goals, he makes a goal to go on a mission, the, the church helps pay for his mission, gets him dressed in white shirt, tie, slacks, teaches him the missionary lessons, they go out they, they, they're trained on how to knock on doors, but also how to use the computer to interact with people who might be interested in that area in the church. And so after two years they come back and they also have at that point the, helping them get a university degree from byu. Pathway, pathway. And they've already had two years of training as a missionary. So they come, they're language proficient, their communication skills have developed and now they teach them how to write. The native language in Nigeria, interestingly enough, is English. And so you don't have the language barrier that you might have in other foreign countries. And so you help this young guy get not only a certificate of competency in English in writing, but you also can help them get an associate of Arts degree. And then you go on and help them get a bachelor's degree. And these bachelor degrees are in areas where you can get a job. And what you have now is you have missionaries who are called, most of them are American missionaries who kind of who are assigned as the young guy's mentor and they help him in overcome discouragement as he's working on a bachelor's degree. And then he, you know, he might get a bachelor's degree in marketing and those people back in the States who are mentors to the young fellow help him get a job. Now it very easily can be out of Nigeria, it can be in the Congo, it can be in the United States, it can be in Europe. And so at this point say what you mean may about Africa, they understand when there that an organization becomes a true value add to an individual's life.

Nemo [00:36:07] Can I jump in there? Because it's just all sounding rather pragmatic in terms of I'm seeing what the church is offering people in Nigeria. There's other secular institutions that also offer particular focus on women's education and things like this that are operating as charities out there. And so I'm wondering how the church is going to deal with the fact that people might be joining the church purely because they know that's where they can get an education, that's where they can get themselves set up. Particularly if they're not having to pay through the Perpetual Education Fund which gives them a loan that they have to pay back with interest while the white Utah born children of general authorities and mission presidents go to church universities free of charge. But anyway, you know, there are these institutions that are out there that will help people. The church is one of them. But the church is fundamentally a religion at its core. So how does it discern what is religious investment in its presence and just pragmatic investment in its presence. You know, how does it compare to Nigerian Pentecostalism, for example, in its success in Nigeria, which is a more purely religious institution? Because what you're describing as its value add seems all very secular and pragmatic rather than religious. Does that make sense?

Roger Hendrix [00:37:18] Yes. Yes. Part of the curriculum is that they also learn the words of the prophets. And so laced in with all of this secular learning is also

John Dehlin [00:37:37] an education institute classes.

Roger Hendrix [00:37:39] Right, Institute classes. And plus curriculum that's based on words of the prophets, even in their secular learning. And so by the time you have a bachelor's degree one, you know, you're a Mormon. No, you know the words of the prophets. You have an orientation toward the atonement. Plus you have a solid education in one of five categories. And I've just taken marketing as an example. And you have missionaries who have been assigned to this student to help them through, you know, the discouragement of classes and grades, but also of being placed in jobs anywhere in the world, not necessarily in Nigeria. But remember, let's. Let's get real here. There are 102 million people Africans who live in Nigeria. So it's one of many countries there in Africa. But it's big to say the least. And so you can make a great living in Nigeria if you come up through that process of pathway having gone on a mission. And have I beaten this thing to death, John?

John Dehlin [00:39:18] No, it's good. Let me ask you, Roger. You know, we would might be a simple question to some why the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints would put such an emphasis on Africa. You would just think God and Jesus love everyone. And so African children are important just like everybody else. And so the church is going to focus there. The truth is, prior to 1978, the church only focused on white Africa for its missionary efforts. And even after 1978, it took a couple decades for the church to really turn on its emphasis in Africa. And I would argue that the church's emphasis in Africa is only about 10 to 15 years old in terms of its heavy push. Is that before I ask my question? Next question is that kind of right past 15 to 20 years, heavy emphasis,

Why is the Mormon Church so focused on Africa?

Roger Hendrix [00:40:13] heavy investment, let's say the last 30 years, heavy emphasis.

John Dehlin [00:40:18] Okay, so if it, if we know that the church went forever not focusing on Africa and then all of a sudden 20 or 30 years ago decided to make a heavy investment in Africa, we must assume that there are other motivations beyond just the love of the African people or they would have been doing that from the very beginning. So a couple possibilities. One is there's money to be made in Africa. I think a lot of churches can be best explained as businesses. So why Africa now? One answer might be that the top church leaders see money to be made eventually in Africa, which I think to a Western mind, that still may be hard to believe that Africa could ever become really a profit center for the church. Another speculative theory might be it's to manage its damaging reputation as it relates to black people. Obviously, the church was racist against black people for so, so long. Clearly, if it's now, you know, Africa, Africa, Africa, black Africa, sub Saharan Africa, that could be healing to its reputation. A third explanation that I sometimes lean to is as the church is hemorrhaging in the white world, so as the Mormon Church is in relative decline in the United States, in Canada, in Western Europe, if it doesn't produce numbers to offset the losses in the developed world, then it starts looking like a dead church. And so in my mind, the church would be motivated to grow Africa because it's like this untapped market where it can have bodies to baptize to help avoid the appearance that it's a shrinking and a dying church. Those are just a couple possible theories. Roger, I'm curious if you have theories about why Africa now, and I mean now, in the past 20 to 30 years. And then I want the panel to jump in as well. But, Roger, you go first.

The Reasons the LDS Church Is emphasizing Africa

Roger Hendrix [00:42:26] I think the church, I think, number one, it's last two presidents of the church, but especially Russell Nelson, the, the church is, I think, on the cusp of a. A great secular change. By secular, I mean strategic change. The church has always been known as a restorationist theology. So it's a part of restoration gospel behavior. You go out and you proclaim the good word because the church had a racist policy about prohibiting blacks from receiving the priesthood. African was a sideshow for the church, but it changed in 1978. And so it started making movements into Africa because it no longer had those, those things that were prohibiting it from having a, a truly strong church in Africa with the involvement of men in the priesthood. But with Russell Nelson, I think the church is taking a new leveling up. And it's not only going to be a restorationist theology, but it's going to be a service religion. What's another word for a service religion? A humanitarian religion. And I think that one of the great contributions of Russell Nelson is we found out that he, in his private life, was a very humanitarian Oriented individual, especially as it relates to African Americans and ultimately Africans. And Russell Nelson, as president of the church, was invited to give two keynote speeches to the naacp. And we also redid the Medgar Evers Museum. Medgar Evers being one of the great civil rights leaders of the 60s who was assassin because. Because he was a civil rights leader, his home was turned into museum. Russell Nelson asked Jeff Holland to go there and refurbish that place. And they got all the missionaries in that area to come in and redo the Medgar Evers Museum. And from there, Russell Nelson was asked to give two keynote speeches there at the naacp. And then all of a sudden, this upward wave of movement in Africa. And it's because the president of the church was a humanitarian when it came to African Americans, African American movements and in Africa ultimately.

John Dehlin [00:46:19] So what I'm hearing you say is that your opinion is a major motivation for the LDS Church emphasizing Africa in the past few decades, is that Russell M. Nelson is a humanitarian and loves black people.

Roger Hendrix [00:46:35] Yes, in part. But even before he was the president, the church was moving on Africa. But there pro. There probably was no one better suited than Russell Nelson to come forward as the president of the church who took a. Made a special effort to emphasize African Americans, African American movements and Africa.

Nemo [00:47:03] But, but.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] And you and I have had this conversation privately, it's hard for. And again, I don't admit to know what's true. I wish the church was more transparent and we didn't have to speculate. But because they rarely talk to the media and they rarely share genuine candid thoughts and perspectives, it leaves us all to speculate. You seem to think that in, in, you know, in the black civil rights movement leadership circles in the United States, Russell Nelson is genuinely viewed as a pillar of goodness. I tend to think that. I tend to wonder if the church just wanted to improve its bad image with black people and so it paid a bunch of money to some black organizations to buy a few press releases and maybe Nelson's name on a plaque at some center somewhere. But it's really, it's a more cynical take, but it's really just this PR move where the church bought a few black friends to help revamp the churches.

Nemo [00:48:12] I don't know what your problem is, all you people, but I'm cynical because it's part of my national heritage. So that's why I'm cynical. I think Russell M. Nelson was uniquely suited to be the only prophet who would, with a straight face, accept something called the Gandhi King Mandela Peace Prize from Morehouse College as though he's done something equivalent to any of those men in the pursuit of peace. He received that from Morehouse. He liked, sure, making relationships with these places. But we forget that Gary Stevenson lied to an NAACP luncheon when he said that they had instructed members of the church to disregard racist materials in church manuals. To my knowledge, and I was a Sunday school teacher at the time, I received no such instruction to tell people to ignore the printed manuals and instead move on to what had been provided online. The church's relationship with the naacp, yes, they're engaging more with these black institutions, but it's complicated. No apologies come out that I'm aware of. I know that it caused massive distress when John Streeter put a fake apology out for the priesthood ban because lots of people realized that maybe they did need one after all. And then it got taken away from them because it turned out not to be real. So sure. Russell M. Nelson I can't speak to what he was like personally. I don't know him personally. I didn't know him personally. But it strikes me from maybe my more cynical position as difficult to believe that this was all because he really liked black members. Because if he really wanted to improve relationships with black members of the church specifically, not just with the black community more broadly, there would have been apologies, there would have been explanations. There would have been the priesthood ban would have been better addressed than it is kind of just ignored. We consider the matter closed. As one comment is put the same as the sec. Fine. Oh no, we just don't talk about anymore. That's what drives a lot of people to have this observation. I think about the ex Mormon community that people are upset that the church is improving. They're not upset that it's improving so much as that the change is not being acknowledged and the previous bad behavior is not being acknowledged.

John Dehlin [00:50:11] You're almost saying the church doesn't engage in the repentance process like teach its members to do. Is that right? Nemo?

Nemo [00:50:18] I've done. I've done videos to make that point myself. Yeah. That you know, the church does not repent. Dan H. Oaks, the current president of the church says the church doesn't seek apologies nor does it give them. They're very clear that they don't feel the need to engage in the repentance process. And it's frustrating because many people ex members of the church grew up in an environment where that kind of repentance was required in order for you to get on in the church, to get a Temple recommend to attend your children's weddings and ceilings to get by and be an active people participant in the church. You needed to engage in repentance for what you did wrong. Then to find out the church does stuff wrong and doesn't repent is a kind of hypocrisy a lot of people can't stomach.

John Dehlin [00:50:53] And Roger, I want to give you a chance to respond, but there's also a comment, why aren't there black apostles? Like, if ever there was a chance for Russell M. Nelson to prove to the church that he was a big fan of black people, he could very easily call one or two black apostles into the Quorum of the twelve, which he hasn't done. And Roger, there are some of the comments that wrote referring to you. This guy is church broke. Is that a term you've heard before?

Roger Hendrix [00:51:18] You bet.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] So you know what that means. They're basically saying you're a shill for the church. What they don't know is that you're not currently actively attending and your beliefs are certainly not orthodox. But we're putting you in this weird position. And maybe you're in this position to some degree of feeling like you need to stick up for or advocate for the church, or at least that's how some are experiencing your comments. So with all that, Roger, what would you say to Nemo and me?

Roger Hendricks on Russell Nelson's Love for Blacks

Roger Hendrix [00:51:50] I forgot what Nemo said.

John Dehlin [00:51:52] So he's saying it's cynical that the church isn't really loving black people, that Nelson really isn't. There's no evidence that he's a real lover of black people. Or the church would have apologized for its racist stuff. And it would have. It'd be acting a lot differently if the church was truly repenting of its sins as it relates to black people.

Roger Hendrix [00:52:16] Yeah. The current president. The current president of the church after President Nelson has been Dallin Oaks. And Dallin Oaks made this statement one time that the church doesn't apologize for its behavior. And critics of the church took that up and basically said, the church does not have the ability to apologize for bad behavior. I think that in my humble opinion, Dallin Oaks would have been better off for never having said that, because we always have to explain that and, you know, take valuable time in explaining it. Be that as it may, the church had a racist policy that during the presidency of Spencer W. Kimball, it came to an end. There were members of the church who were grateful for that and felt terrible that we had that. And as scholars dug into, you know, how that took place in the first place. It was just basically a private opinion on Brigham Young's part not to have blacks have the priesthood. Brigham Young was building a, a white bread church, a white bread religion in the, in, in the Great Basin kingdom. Well, in 1978, the president of the church broke that ban and D Oak said, we don't apologize for it. We just go forward. Let me, as a member of the church, let me make a official statement and I speak for a party of one. I'm sorry. Never should have happened.

John Dehlin [00:54:32] Roger Hendrick apologizes on behalf of the lds.

Roger Hendrix [00:54:36] I love it on the part of Roger Hendricks. And so if we can get that behind us, my apology is as good as anybody's apology.

Nemo [00:54:48] And I mean, unless you claim to speak for God, I'm not sure it's quite as good as maybe the prophet of the church apologizing. Maybe that, that might, that might change some things. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:54:59] I mean, Roger, what do you say to Nemo's accusation that the church, it's about pr, it's not really genuine, that now some people feel like Nelson's kind of comes across, came across as a phony and that, you know, the church is more motivated by money. The church is more easily described as being motivated by money or reputation than they are about altruism. You've worked inside.

Roger Hendrix [00:55:26] Yeah. Well, if it were based on money, we'd never be in Africa in the first place.

John Dehlin [00:55:31] Are you sure? So you don't think Africa is a profit, a future profit center for the church as their economy improves?

Roger Hendrix [00:55:39] It may be a profit center. No, it wouldn't be in Africa if it's, if, if all it was interested in is money. This is the poorest, this is the poorest continent in the world. And, and it's tithing. Money in no, in no way shape or form even measures up to the interest the church gets on its private investments that the church holds, that the first Presidency holds. So no, it's. They're not there because it's money. It's there because they are a restoration gospel. They, they deal in restoration or the restoration of the gospel. My point is with President Nelson, he has that maybe the church is becoming more of a humanitarian church on top of a restoration gospel. Because Russell Nelson had the reputation of having close friendships with black leaders in America before he even became an apostle. He was a world famous heart surgeon and made many friends throughout the world. And in particular he had made friends with African American religious leaders. And so it was heartfelt. And the fact that he came in and, and just Said we're going to give $10 million. We're going to show with our money as well as with our words that we, we want to be with the, the African movement, with the black movement in the world.

John Dehlin [00:57:48] Right. And do you see, 10 million is a large amount of money relative to

Roger Hendrix [00:57:53] what I think it's a starter. And, and so could. Has anybody else just given $10 million to Morehouse College? The answer is no.

Nemo [00:58:06] Has anyone received a Peace Prize in return, perhaps?

Roger Hendrix [00:58:10] Well, he got the wall of honor there. That was, that he was on.

John Dehlin [00:58:16] I mean, is that kind of gross? A quid pro quo? He'll use tithing money to give to the Morehouse College if he gets some type of award where his name is listed on par with Gandhi and Martin Luther King. That almost seems craven or gross at some level, not laudable and evident of his love for black people. I don't know. I, I don't know the man's heart. I don't want to be harsh about him. Surely you can see why that could also be viewed as kind of problematic

Roger Hendrix [00:58:47] right there, There are always different opinions. You know, we can, we can, we can argue that it was a cynical gift. We can argue that it was a good gift. I, I, I'm one who argues that it was a great gift. It was a starter. Okay. And Julia.

Julia [00:59:10] Yeah. Sorry, I just want to say, so this was reminding me of Joe Nagatiya's episode, and he was in Kenya and he said, said that the church, even though he just, he doesn't believe the church anymore, he says that the church really, really helped him obtain his education and become a doctor. And so he was like, I would never stop the Mormons from coming to Africa. I absolutely think that they are a force for good overall. And so, like, hearing you speak about how they're helping educate people, like, regardless of motivation, I think that was, I think that is one of the few things the church is doing really well. I just wanted to say that, is that this educating and helping people get jobs underneath them. My other thought is like, maybe the church is doing this to build up better tithe pairs because they're losing tithe pairs here. But that's also about motivated or motivation and reasoning of why they're going to Africa. But regardless of why, I still think it's a good thing that they're there. And I really liked hearing you give that, give your take on all of this.

Julia on the Church's Statistical Shuffle

John Dehlin [01:00:02] I agree, Julia, but I also think if it weren't for the statistical conversions, the state growth, the ward growth, the Branch growth, the district growth, and the mission growth in Africa. I think the statistical shrinkage in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in the modern era would be almost scandalous. And so I think for statistics alone, I think the church is desperate to grow, to create statistical growth, membership growth, missionary growth, to offset the shrinkage everywhere else.

Nemo [01:00:40] Because like Roger said, the church is a restorationist movement. There's this prophecy that we can't seem to get away from in the church that, you know, the church will roll forth like a stone cut from the mountain without hands and cover the whole earth, etc. Etc. Right. And all corners of the earth will hear the gospel. Just another real quick point there. It's interesting how $10 million is a good amount of money when it's given to a college, but $5 million is an absolutely tiny amount of money when it comes to a fine. And, you know, we shouldn't even worry about it. The church got fined 5 million. That's just a slap on the wrist. You know, they didn't really do anything wrong. So it's just interesting how these sums of money can be viewed differently.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] You're talking about the securities and Exchange Commission. Fine. Right, Brooklyn, let's get you in then. I have another follow up question for Nemo. Go ahead, Brooklyn.

Mormon membership in Africa

Brooklyn Alden [01:01:26] Yeah, yeah, no, I was just going to respond to you there, John, because I completely agree, we're the way I see it is less financially motivated and more optically motivated, as in how it looks for the church to be gaining all of these members. And if there is a possibility in these countries in Africa to have increased membership and have the statistics go up, I think that is more valuable to them optically than even maybe what they're gaining financially. But then, and also just to comment on what's been discussed, it just makes sense to me. What I know based off of a lot of cultures of African countries that in my mind the Mormon religion really works culturally for Afghans because I just know they're extremely hard working, very highly motivated and value education a lot and are also there's a big religious movement already there where there's already loads of devout Christians. And you know, obviously we spoke about Islam as well, but Christianity is huge there as well. So I think it just makes sense that it clicks really well for African cultures. And it makes sense to me why it's growing so much there just because of all the things I just listed. It takes a really hard worker to be a Mormon. It takes someone highly motivated to be Mormon. And I think that Mormons really value education, which is things I've all seen in African culture. So it makes sense to me. It's growing there and then I just think it helps the church when they can say, look, we're growing members. We're not just losing them like they are in the US where I think it's become very stagnant in a lot of Western cultures.

John Dehlin [01:02:55] Beautiful. Love those comments. Brooklyn and Juilliard.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] Zero sugar today. Nemo, I wanted to ask you. Well, first I'll just introduce the next topic. Roger, you know we're about to talk about this, but Quentin Cook, I think Quentin Cook has taken over as M. Russell Ballard. He's taken over M. Russell Ballard's place as kind of the apostle in charge of the missionary work worldwide. And he's been doing press releases recently making this what seems like a preposterous claim that miraculously in the past six to 12 months, the Mormon Church is not just growing leaps and bounds in Africa, but it's growing in every major area across the world. In terms of increased baptisms, I don't know, increased retention, just overall growth. Nemo, I wanted to start by checking in with you. Based on what you know about Western Europe and or the uk, do Quentin Cook's claims about worldwide church growth, do they seem plausible from where you sit in Europe and in the uk they

Quentin Cook: The LDS Church is Growing in Every Region of

Nemo [01:04:39] don't ring true here. From my observations, just because the amount of chapels that are being closed and sold, wards are being closed, stakes are being merged. In the past five years we lost four stakes. We lost, you know, almost 10% of our stakes were gone. And so and the church, the church in the UK is particularly strong and has been for a long time because of the history of the church and because the history of church in the British Isles and because it being, you know, that place where there were more British members of the church than there were American members of the church near the beginning and then they all moved over. So I'm not seeing that. What I am seeing is kind of to wrap up from the previous point and draw it into this is that what I am certain Russell Nelson did like was the. The optics of growth. Because in the same way, if it was about the money. They wouldn't be in Africa if it was about the money. They wouldn't be building these temples that are not being used, that are becoming a rod for the backs of the members who live in the catchment areas of them, because they now have to man and service these temples when they're already busy in parts of the world doing three callings because they're overstretched and overworked. So I think similarly trying to tout that while we're creating new missions. Okay, but anyone. Gerrymandering is a big thing in the US it's bigger in the US Than it is here. This redrawing of voting boundaries to kind of benefit individuals. The church seems to have taken, again, a very American approach to, well, let's just redraw boundaries. Let's create new missions by splitting things. Let's create new stakes by actually shrinking things. And this sort of gerrymandering is what I'm seeing a lot of, certainly in Europe and, and in parts outside America, but also we're seeing it in the Mormon corridor as well. Stakes disappearing, stakes closing, buildings being sold.

John Dehlin [01:06:32] Okay, so that's what I would have expected to hear from you, Nemo. And that's my understanding that that's. That's in freaking Salt Lake County. Like, it seems like every month in Salt Lake City, slash Salt Lake county, there's a new chapel that's being closed. There are more stakes being merged, wards being closed and shut down. That's in the equivalent of kind of Mormon Vatican City, which is, you know, Salt Lake City. Now, I know there's some population shifting, but. But, Roger, what do you make of Quentin Cook and his claims that the LDS Church is experiencing growth in every region of the world in 2025?

Roger Hendrix [01:07:17] Yeah, I read that, too. And what's good about this is I don't have to speak for Quentin Cook on that. You know, you could interpret that different ways, that there was a pickup in the number of convert baptisms for that quarter. What? I. I would like to shift the. The conversation just a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:07:46] You can't change the conversation. Okay.

Roger Hendrix [01:07:50] Ask me what's my job. Oh, excuse me. Excuse me.

John Dehlin [01:07:53] Do you believe, Quentin Cook, that the church is growing in every major region worldwide?

Roger Hendrix [01:07:59] I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:08:02] And does that make sense to you?

Roger Hendrix [01:08:04] Well, if you say that Quentin Cook looked at every mission and every mission of. Of the world grew in number of baptisms for a quarter, then he would. He only. He knows because he has the data. And so I think he wanted to tell a good story. But other than that, I didn't quite understand the point he was getting at. He, you know, he has the responsibility of talking about the growth of the church. The truth is the, the church is not growing in every place in the world, but it is growing. And so I feel comfortable enough to say that other than that, I don't entirely understand what Quentin Cook was getting at.

John Dehlin [01:09:03] Like my. Roger, thank you for answering that more directly. My, my sense is that if the church is, if the church is starting to die in Utah, we know it's dying in California where you used to live. And I imagine it's dying in most other US States with the exception of maybe some suburban areas where suburban white collar growth is happening because of demographic shifts. But wouldn't you say that if we just took Africa off the table that the, that the LDS Church worldwide would probably be about flat, if not in decline at this point or not? And I mean in active participatory membership, not statistical baptism growth, I would say

Roger Hendrix [01:09:58] that it still has a 20% activity rate and in Africa, 25 to 30% activity, activity rate. But I, I want to, I, I want to dig into that sentiment you're communicating. I believe that Western Christianity, getting back to this model that I introduced in the beginning from Samuel Huntington, the Christian religions in Western Christianity are contracting. And what it, what's going in the place of this great Western Christianity in the clash of civilizations, what's taking its place is, in my words, secularism. It's our, our, our faith in science, our faith in the pragmatic arts of doing well in business. And so Western Christianity is not the vibrant movement that it once was, but in places, you know, and I want to get away from Africa now, but in places where things are still growing and new, such as Western Africa, you, you would see the growth of Western Christian religions in Western Africa. So let's get back to this issue that yes, Western Christianity is contracting and in its place comes secularism. And secularism is merely faith in the pragmatic arts of science, business, technology and capitalism. And so Western Christianity really is the cradle of capitalism. It's the cradle of the scientific method, it's the cradle of the Enlightenment. And, and so Christianity has contracted a bit to make room for this great secular movement that is taking place in this part of the world. It's not growing like that. And other parts of the world which have different religious backgrounds that have an impact on it, such as the Middle east with Islam, you go to, you

Western Christianity's Contracting

John Dehlin [01:13:01] know, Abu Dhabi, Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia.

Roger Hendrix [01:13:06] Yeah, I, I've spent the last 10 years my consoling life in the Saudi peninsula and Muslims are not on fire with respect to the secular, you know, arts and science. Islam is still very powerful on the peninsula. That doesn't mean they aren't going to college. They, that doesn't mean that they have challenges that they have to face in becoming more secular. But there is no place in the world that is on fire like in the Western Christian world in the secular arts. And, and there's nothing wrong with that. It, the secularism was birthed by Western Christianity. And so whether you find that churches are being boarded up because there aren't enough members, well, but you also have more colleges and universities and community colleges and technical colleges be replacing it all around the Western Christian world. And so if to be fair, you have to look at what is growing in its place. And, and that's my position on that. I'm not worried about the contraction of Christianity and in its place a stronger secular world. As a matter of fact, when asked by you the last time I was here, how would I describe myself? And I would say, I feel very comfortable in saying I'm a secular Mormon. I love the idea of being a Mormon, but I have disagreements. But I really dig the idea that I've had a secular education that I've be, I've been a part of secular business movements whereas I was a part of Mormon educational movements before I left. But it's, there's no place in the world like Western Europe and America when it comes to the education that we are experiencing. And I think one of the pivotal interviews, one of your panelists brought this out was Dr. Joe. I think he understands what's going on. He understands that the church is helping. He wouldn't want to take the church away from Africa because it's a value added proposition in Africa.

John Dehlin [01:16:21] Right.

Roger Hendrix [01:16:22] And, but you know, Dr. Joe understands what the church is attempting to do in Africa.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] Yeah, yeah. Let me, let me go ahead and get a couple comments in. Anna Clark writes, I think in hope that with the addition of Christofferson to the presidency, we will have more of an environmental or climate focus in the future. Thank you Anna Clark for the super chat and for that comment. And then my awesome friend Brett Clark, or sorry, Brett Hutchings writes. John, can you guys discuss the article in the Salt Lake Trib Yesterday on the 55 new missions announced by the church done by David Noyce and Peggy Fletcher Stack. Also Bill and Marge said to tell you hello, that's Bill Bradshaw And Marge Bradshaw. Brett, thank you for the super chat and for the question as well. I had not read that article yet, but I just pulled it up.

55 New Missions Announced by the Church

Nemo [01:17:24] Can I throw a couple of thoughts out while you're looking at that? John?

John Dehlin [01:17:27] Yeah, I'll just read really quick a couple things. It says in 2024 there were 36 new missions created worldwide. There were about eight or nine new missions in Africa. Now next year it's going to be 17 and it says that's a pretty big steady increase in Africa to meet needs there and present opportunities that are present throughout the continent. Nemo, go ahead and tell us your thoughts.

Nemo [01:17:51] Well, my first thought is whenever they lower the age of people to serve missions, then there's always a spike in an uptick. It creates an excitement around the prospect server mission. It will inevitably catch some people who weren't going to go on missions who then do end up going because it's a year earlier. That works for their plans. Whatever. You do see that spike, but then you see it come down again. So when they brought the SYSTEM missionaries down from. Or when they increased the. Yeah, when they brought them down and they brought the men's age down, you saw spikes.

Julia [01:18:24] And then didn't they just do that again? Didn't they just lower?

Nemo [01:18:27] Exactly, yeah. So they've just lowered the age that SYSTEM missionaries can serve down from 19 to 18. So now it's parity with the young men. It went from 21 to 19, I believe, the first time around. So each time they do that, they create a larger catchment of people that can go. So of course there's going to be a natural increase, the same as after Covid. There was an influx because people just weren't going. Less people were going during COVID And then a group of people went. So you can spin that as growth. You can say, oh, this new missions. But areas get open and closed all the time. Missions get, there's been missions shut in the UK and missions open. They say, oh, there's a brand new mission, the Bristol Mission, used to be a mission got closed. Jeffrey R.H. famously closed it, saying that if this mission was a horse, I'd take it out the back and shoot it because the mission had gone so terribly wrong that they just closed it. That's the, the apocryphal claim there. But yeah, they, they reopened the Bristol Mission. They closed under South Mission where I served, which was a mission. And they combined, they change boundaries. It's just more gerrymandering, a lot of it.

The Mormon Missionary Age Announcement

John Dehlin [01:19:28] Let me ask Julia in Brooklyn this announcement that, I mean it was, it was a big deal when Thomas S. Monson was prophet that the missionary age for Mormon young women was reduced from 21 to 19. The feminists, the Mormon feminists like that, that they're wasn't as much of an age discrepancy as their previous Lee had been. Along with the change that young women were now encouraged to serve missions with the same, with the same level of intensity as men. And then just this past month or two, the church reduced the age for young women a second time from 19 to 18 to be parallel with that of young Mormon men. Obviously one might ask, are they doing this because they're desperate? Are they doing this because they're losing young women between that 18 and 19 year age? Are they doing it because there's an overall problem with the number of missionaries and they're trying to solve that problem by getting more missionaries younger. And then there's the question of whether or not that's going to cause problems to have 18 year old men and women serving missions at the same time. But let's have Brooklyn and then Julia, as women who were raised Mormon, what insight or thoughts do y' all have about that age change? Brooklyn, you go first.

The Age Change to Serve Missions

Brooklyn Alden [01:21:08] Yeah, no, this is a good question. I have a few thoughts on it. So I mean I was a sophomore in high school when they changed the age the first time I was super excited because I planned on serving a mission. I was like, oh, now I don't have to wait as long I can still go. And at the time I don't think of anything wrong with it because I was still like blinders on for the church and just all for it, no matter what it does. Looking back I'm like, they were still kind of showing, look, we'd rather you do this or this for, you know, generally it was get married first. If you can't get married then you can go on a mission. I feel like they were still having that feeling by the fact that they didn't bring it down to the same age at that time. Like I don't see why in retrospect they didn't bring it down to 18, same age as the boys nowadays. The more recent change, my personal thought, as soon as I heard it, was because young women are leaving not just the Mormon Church but all religion. It's been a known trend that especially Gen Z, men are becoming more religious and more, you know, right wing, I'd say, and women are going the opposite direction where they're becoming less religious, more secular and More left wing. And it's been complicated for these generations dating each other and. But this has been across the board, not just Mormonism. So I think it is the current changes to try to keep women in the church because as we all know, the mission statement keep people in the church if they can get them on a mission. But in terms of thinking about, oh, is this for women? I would want to know and I don't know the answer. So I'm asking, have they said that they are okay with women going on like they want women to serve a mission as much as men, or is the opinion still we want you to try to get married first? We would prefer you to be married first and then try to serve a mission because traditionally that's what it always was.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] My impression is there are more young women serving missions right now than young men. That's my impression and my impression is that culturally they're not going to get mad if a young Mormon woman gets married at 17 or 18. I think they're always happy when young Mormons get married in the temple. But my sense is all the young women who are faithful are planning to serve missions. Julia or Nemo, what are you all seeing? And also Roger, I want to hear if you have thoughts.

Nemo [01:23:27] I would look at the first presidency statement that they put out on 21st of November this year when they said that women can now serve missions for the Church of Jesus Christ at age 18, 21st of November being the day after Floodlight broke the story about Wave Christofferson. So it was a well timed distraction, some might say. They say though that we reiterate missionary service remains an optional opportunity for young women. It starts, you know, while the Lord asks every worthy, able young man as part of his priesthood responsibility to prepare for and serve mission, we reiterate the missionary service remains an optional opportunity for young women. The other thing I would look at, and I don't have access to it right now, can young women still return home with an honorable discharge from their mission to get married? Because if so, if so, that shows where the church's focus for young women still is, because that's always been a disparity between young men and women. Young women can go home off their mission to get married.

Brooklyn Alden [01:24:22] Yeah, I would agree that then it sounds like their focus is still, hey, we'd prefer you get married. Obviously I don't think they expect or they'd be fine with it, but I don't think women are expected to be getting married at 18 and researching with that. But I think the Fact, it's not as expected as it is for the men. Still shows to me as a Mormon, you know, ex Mormon, that, yeah, that it's like, hey, we'd still kind of prefer you to go get married or that that's still a major option for you, whereas it's not as much an option for men. But I want to hear what Julia thinks as well.

Sister Missionaries vs Men

Julia [01:24:50] Well, so I agree with you because I think that the church losing women, the religions overall are losing religion. So lowering the age makes women go. And people who serve missions tend to stay in the church longer. But one thing that I think might, they might not think about is that I didn't. I wasn't aware of a lot of the sexism until I served my mission. So as you're serving you, you realize how much power you don't have to do anything as a sister missionary. Missionary, yes. Like, I had my converts. The people that I was teaching, they wanted me to baptize them. And I was like, I can't. I'm a woman and I have to report to a man every single night. I have to report all my numbers to. To the higher ups of men. I don't report to women. Like, I guess they, they did implement sister trainer leaders, but they're like, they really have no power. And so you really see the sexism. And I think that's one of the main reasons why a lot of women leave is because they're not treated equally. And then another thing that I. Another thought that I had is that in my mission, we had a lot of sisters, and a lot of the sisters had more success oftentimes than the men. I don't know if that's the same in different missions, but I wondered if the church has numbers on that, like if sister missionaries are more successful than the men. Like, I thought I would just be curious to see.

Nemo [01:25:58] Anecdotally, I don't know. To that point, I don't know whether it's because my adsense or whatever has profiled me as a young male, but obviously we know the church advertises on my videos, and I see almost exclusively adverts of young sister missionaries when the church is advertising missionary services online.

John Dehlin [01:26:18] So, Nemo, you're saying it's. It's good for advertising. And I think Julie is also wondering who gets more baptisms per mission. You were a mission president, Roger. When you were a mission president, did sister missionaries on average baptize more than non than male missionaries? Or do you even remember?

Questions for Sister Missionaries

Roger Hendrix [01:26:39] Well, males basically baptized more, but that there are reasons for that. One, you had to make sure that young women were placed in areas that were safe. And, and sometimes your greatest number of convert baptisms were coming in places which had more violence. And so young women were placed in safer areas. Always, always young women were more thorough in bringing their convert baptisms along. And all they wanted, All a young woman wants is to be treated equally. And with that restriction that I would place them in safer areas. They wanted to be treated like the elders. They, they taught as many lessons as the elders. They got up earlier than the elders. Lady missionaries were, I think, a leavening force in the mission that I presided over. And to have more lady missionaries is a plus in the world because they are more thorough, they take their time. They, they don't fudge. You know, honesty is in reporting your numbers is a very big issue with lady missionaries. And so to have younger lady missionaries go out is good. But let me add this in, in anticipating this interview, and as I said, I focused on Nigeria. And what I did was I looked up the pictures of the missionaries who were missionaries in Nigeria, and they were all Africans. And the mission president was in Africa. And so I would say worldwide, where, where, where the numbers dictated. They're going with local folks to become the missionaries. And Henry Irene once told me, says, Roger, you know, 20 years from now, and this, he was telling me this while I was a missionary president. Twenty years from now, all the missionaries in Chile are going to be Chilenos. And and so I think he, he was steering me correctly on that one. The church is successful in the mission field in America and Western Europe, which is the cradle of Western Christianity. You're seeing, you're seeing, you know, it's, it's contracting a little bit, and it can even contract a lot. But as restoration theology, it's interested in taking the gospel worldwide and just not concentrating in America and Western Europe and Western Europe, historically, they're doing something else that is different than in other parts of the world, be that China, be that north and South Korea, you know, and all of these clashes of civilization are now clashing according to their history. And religion was a big part of their history. And the thing that is driving the secularism in the part of the world which is called Western Christianity is its embrace of secularism. And whereas it's different in other parts of the world. But the one thing that Huntington said was there, there is sort of this neutral country which it has not yet developed its identity, and that's Africa, especially sub Sahara Africa, Sub Saharan Africa. And whereas in Northern Africa. It's as staunchly Islamic, but they're down Christian movements. And Mormonism is definitely one of the biggest Christian movements. They're developing the missions because that's, that's what that the world, those people are determining their new identity in a new world.

John Dehlin [01:32:28] Nemo, did you have a question or a comment before we moved on?

Roger Hendrix [01:32:32] No.

I Was There 13: The Future of Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:32:33] Okay, thank you for that, Roger. Let me read another super chat that came in. I was there 13. Thank you for that generous donation. I was there 13 writes the future of Mormonism doesn't include me or many of my family. And for that I am deeply grateful. Mormon Stories has been such a vital and honest and objective resource. It's sad that you have to go outside of the church to become fully informed. Like, Roger, you're probably, you probably said more words about the church for the level of power you obtained in the church than like all words ever spoken by the quorum of the 15 in the past 30 years. Because those dudes just don't talk publicly in any interesting way about the church other than sort of these superscripted, correlated general conference talks. So anyway, to finish up, I was there thirteen's comment and even more sad that they intentionally obscure, revise, redirect and demonize history and facts. And so thank you. I was there 13, for that comment. And she's obviously referring to the fact that we don't have activity rates and we don't have financial disclosure. And it's true, it's sad that we have to again sit here and speculate. But it's also fun that we have Nemo and Julia and Brooklyn.

Nemo [01:33:58] And I say we are sat here going, what's the future of Mormonism? And you know, looking forward into 2026. Why is the church not produced any sort of material? Like, here's what we hope to achieve next year for a church that claims to have men who can prophesy and men who can see around corners, as you know, Sherry June might say, where is their not even prediction, but just mission statement for the next year. Here's what we want the church to achieve. Here's what we want to do as a religion. Here's how we want to help the world. Here's how we want to show up for the world in 2026. Not heard a peep. Yeah, interesting.

John Dehlin [01:34:39] No, it's unfortunate. And maybe they'll change that over time. So much is changing. I know that Kieran, right, Patrick Kieran, is more savvy with the media. He seems to pull the ghost of Gordon B. Hinckley a little bit.

Nemo [01:34:54] He's a PR professional. That was his professional job before he joined the quorum of the 12. He worked in public relations.

John Dehlin [01:35:00] Yeah. And Christopherson in the past has done a little bit of media outreach. I don't know if any of the other new apostles are showing signs of being a little bit more media savvy, but we can all hope that that's the future. Roger, let me just start on the question of transparency and in this case, finances. What's your read and if you have any insider information, don't disclose any sources. What's your read on exactly how wealthy the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is in 2025? You hear 300 billion from the widows, my people, I have other friends that say no, it's more like 500 billion in total worth assets, stocks, cash, real estate, et cetera, ip. But you hear estimates as high as a trillion. Do you have a position on what your best information guess is on how wealthy the church is?

How Rich Is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Roger Hendrix [01:36:04] The assets of the church number between 300 billion and 400 billion. The rainy day fund that the First Presidency holds solely is somewhere now in the neighborhood of 150 billion. And that's just the amount of money that they hold as a rainy day fund. And so it's, it's, if you total up the real estate assets and you and the yearly tithing that comes in, probably between 300 billion and 400 billion would be correct. And someplace sometime around, let's say 2050, that's 25 years from now, it's going to be well over $1 trillion. And with respect to that, there is no religion, no church that is more financially able and financially secure than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And, and with that they have stockpiled a lot of dough. And with that they're going to go with where they feel they can get the greatest growth in membership. That's their number one charter. And, and, and so I have different feelings about how they're trying to improve the activity of the church from a low of 20 to 25% activity.

On the Church's Rainy Day Fund

Nemo [01:38:11] Can I ask a follow up question about the church's rainy day fund here, which is we know from complaints made and discussions had and investigations done that the only times the church has gone into Ensign Peak were for City Creek Moorland to bail out Beneficial Life. Chris Waddell spoke to both of those instances on 60 Minutes. So we have that knowledge about what they've done. Do you have a sense, Roger, of what they are going to use this rainy Day fund for what is the rainy day? We know 2008 wasn't it. We know Covid, wasn't it? They actually started charging some people more for missions during COVID So what is the rainy day? What is this money for?

Roger Hendrix [01:38:57] I think I have some personal knowledge on this. I was a trustee for one of the church's companies called Deseret Trust company. And a man who was called at the same time I was to be a trustee was Roger Clark, who was made the CEO when Ensign Peak Advisors was first started. And he and I sat next to him for 18 years as he was guiding the affairs of Vincent Peak Advisors. And what he was investing in was similar to what he was investing in in the company where we were trustees. And so by the time that Roger finally retired, the, the, the rainy day fund was about 120 billion. And, and by the, by naming it a rainy day fund, they would use it in case there was a rainy day. In other words, in case they could not cover their expenses on the tithing that they received on an annual basis, they would dip into the rainy day fund.

Nemo [01:40:28] Doesn't the church determine its expenditure each year by the amount of tithing it receives? Don't they plan accordingly?

Roger Hendrix [01:40:34] Exactly.

Nemo [01:40:36] In a position not to be able to pay the expenses? If those expenses are determined by the income, that's where the disconnect is for me.

Roger Hendrix [01:40:43] So, okay, could you repeat that again? Where is the disconnect?

Nemo [01:40:47] If their expenses are determined by their income, and if they receive less income, they trim the budget and they reduce their expenses. How would they ever be in a position where they can't cover their expenditures? If we know what they do is they contract those expenditures if income is insufficient.

Roger Hendrix [01:41:06] I have two responses there. Number one, usually for at least the time that Roger and I served together, there were times when the tithing had a surplus of a billion dollars, maybe one year. It bring in $9 billion and it had a surplus of a billion dollars that went over into Ensign Peak Advisors. Now there are times when they get together and, and the, you know, they, they, they want to take a, you know, they cut their expenses by 10%. They can go all around the world to do that. When I was mission president, Santiago, Chile, they, they cut the, the annual budget for the presiding bishopric in Santiago one particular year. So a rainy day fun is just. Is dictated by what they think is essential, which gets back to where is the church going.

Nemo [01:42:20] So before we go there, are we saying there's a flaw? So say they bring in the numbers. I've Heard are they brought in 7 billion and they spend 6 and they put one away in enzyme Peak. That is a number that I think comes through the Wall Street Journal. So what we're saying is there must be a floor whereby if tithing revenue drops below, say arbitrarily 4 billion, that's the point at which the church has expenses that do exceed that as a minimum to keep the lights on. And that's where they would have to dip into that rainy day fund. Is that how you just help people understand what that rainy day actually looks like? Because in 2008, when tithing revenue went down, the church contracted the budget. But what we must be saying is there's a point at which they can't contract the budget anymore. There must be a flaw. At which point in order to keep the church just fundamentally operational lights on in buildings, etc. There is an amount they have to spend every year. And if their income drops below that, that's when the rainy day fund would kick in. Is that correct?

Roger Hendrix [01:43:22] I think that would be a good analysis of that.

John Dehlin [01:43:27] Is it, Roger, Is it your sense? Do you have any indication that tithing overall tithing income annually is either it's slowed or has, is even declining? Do you have any information about tithing annual tithing rates?

Roger Hendrix [01:43:47] I served on a board also with a man by the name of Woodbury who took Gordon B. Hinckley's place as stake president. And Gordon B. Hinckley called him to be a mission president. And he ended up being the chairman of our board. And I asked Brother Woodbury, you know what Gordon B. Hinckley's opinion was on whether or not we're taking in enough tithing. And Gordon B. Hinckley, Gordon Hinckley at that time told Brother Woodbury, he said that the. The church takes in enough money to pay its bills and to run its programs. And it's a liberal amount. And witness the fact that there are, there is a surplus. And to my knowledge, there, there continues to be a surplus. But after that, the whistleblower who, who told the world there was a rainy day fund. It's now hard to get information. But the guy who, who was in charge of the rainy day fund was President Eyrington, who is now the first counselor in the first pregnancy and was the second counselor in the first pregnancy. And he's the one that guided the rainy day fund issues. And to my knowledge, they may nip and tuck here and there, but they haven't had a need to draw on the rainy day fund. But they have Enough money that they can do probably whatever they want to do. Now remember, they have colleges and universities that they have to make sure are funded. And that's an expensive proposition. And so it's hard to cut back. Brigham Young University, either Provo or in Idaho or in Hawaii. And, and, and some of what I was reading about was that in the, the college atmosphere of Nigeria, the, the again helped me with the name of the program. Pathways Pathway. Pathway has built a huge building in the capital of Nigeria where these students, students flock to motivate one another and have activities. And this is my opinion that I, I. It just seems like they're going to invest great amounts of billions of dollars in Africa, even if that means building a great university in Africa. Now, nobody has told us me that, but let me tell you, you have the, the growth is so, so strong there that that would be a great place to invest money in creating a Brigham Young University of Africa. Because, remember, Africa is still trying to create its identity vis a vis China, vis a vis Japan. Japan's religious history is in Shintoism. And, and, and you, you also have in India, where it's the Hindu religion, you have these, these countries that have religious movements that were born Africa, it's a little looser. It's a more virgin territory. And so that's what is meant by. It's a new clash of civilizations.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Roger Hendrix [01:48:13] Am I boring you, John?

John Dehlin [01:48:14] No, no, not at all. We appreciate it. This is really good. We love your analysis, Roger. And let me ask you one. One question that we talked about discussing was dynamics within the Quorum. For a long time, there have been reports that the quorum of the 12 is not necessarily unanimous on all issues. When the November 2015 policy happened, there are reports that maybe even some apostles were out of town and that the November 2015 policy was implemented knowing that certain apostles were out of town and that certain apostles were angry and upset that the November 2015 policy was rammed through the church. And there's just ongoing speculation that especially around LGBT issues, there's division in the Quorum of the twelve apostles in terms of how to deal with that issue. But there are also rumors that maybe Uchtdorf, you know, is on the outs and that there are certain apostles who aren't big Uchtdorf fans because maybe they feel like he was too liberal or too sympathetic to questioning or doubting Mormons. Do you have any perceptions or information around the extent to which Quorum of the Members of the Quorum of the twelve like each other and get along And. Or have division.

Quorum of the 12

Roger Hendrix [01:49:51] Yeah. 2. My first observations with Richard Scott, who has passed away, but he's the one that called me, actually. He's the one that did the interviewing of my wife and me to become a mission president. It was Gordon Hinckley who issued the call. And he said, roger, when I was called to be in the quorum of the 12, I took my seat and I was. My very first meeting, I was shocked because there was so much talking and so many different opinions being expressed that the quorum of the 12 is basically the talking quorum. It's the quorum where 12 men come together and they express their opinions on any particular topic that comes their way. And it's the Quorum of the twelve that the First Presidency will listen to when they are discussing all of their issues. Because after all, it's the First Presidency who has to take those opinions and they have to form them into a coherent one principle or one policy. And Elder Scott said that's where very frank opinions are expressed. And. And, you know, I've been in situations where, like, I was in a stake presidency, and in the seventh year, you get to know the. You know, the clerks and you get to know your fellow counselor, you get to know the stake president, you get to know the High Council every month. And it gets to the point where you can almost recurse what each person is going to say. And so you can't be in the quorum of the 12 where some of those guys are going to be in their 30 and 40 years. They know what each other will say, and they know when they have to. They know that they're there to express their opinions and give their observations. They also know when they kind of have. That they have to be quiet and that. And that it comes about in the seniority system. You know, the. The seventh apostle is not really going to take on the third, you know, oldest apostle in time in the Quorum. And so they. They level up in coming to kind of a. A consensus, I guess. And theater Uchtdorf has a reputation of being more liberal. And, and some of the 12,

Julia [01:53:12] maybe

John Dehlin [01:53:12] Oaks is Oaks and Bednar, for example,

Roger Hendrix [01:53:15] they are more conservative. And so. But you have to understand that when these guys are called to be members of the 12, that they are there to express their opinion. They are there to give their considered wisdom on any given issue. And so if Dieter Uchtdorf tends to be more liberal than Dallin Oaks or who was the other one then? Bednar, that's okay, because they may get on Dieter Uchtdork's nerves. They know. They know how each other feels on any given issue, and they are told that they expect you to express your opinion.

John Dehlin [01:54:06] Do you think it's fair that Uchdorf to. For people to speculate that Uchtdorf was removed from the first presidency because of personality differences?

Roger Hendrix [01:54:15] No.

John Dehlin [01:54:16] No. You don't think so?

Roger Hendrix [01:54:17] No. Goodness, no. Yep. President Monson died. President Monson asked Dieter Uchtdorf to be in the first presidency. And Dieter Uchtdorf was the second counselor in the first presidency. And Henry Irene was the first counselor. So it's now time for Russell Nelson to be the president of the church. The guy he sat next to for 30 years in the quorum of the 12 was D. Oaks. He wanted D. Oaks to be his first counselor. So what you did was you bumped Irene from first counselor to second counselor. Dieter Uchtdorf, you bounced from second counselor back into his place in the quorum of the 12th.

Todd Christofferson on Being Bounced From the Quorum of

Nemo [01:55:03] That was the first time in a long time that that had happened where they weren't retained for anything other than health reasons. You know, sometimes people would let go for health reasons. They were sort of frail. It was opportunity to give them a bit of a rest. But this was pretty unprecedented for Dieter to go back into the quorum.

Roger Hendrix [01:55:20] It happened during David O. McKay's presidency where the first counselor was made the second counselor.

John Dehlin [01:55:30] QB Brown was bounced because he was too vocal about wanting blacks to receive the priesthood. And Harold B. Lee and Joseph Fielding Smith wanted him bounced from the first presidency. That's what I understand.

Roger Hendrix [01:55:43] Bounced or.

John Dehlin [01:55:45] Yeah,

Roger Hendrix [01:55:48] I didn't know today that I was the defender of the faith. But let's, let's try this. You're a panelist. The, the, the name of the game, according to Gordon Hinckley, is get into the quorum of the 12 and you're going to be bounced around one. One way or another. During David O. McKay's time, when he became president, he wanted a person he'd was very close to to be his first counselor. So J. Reuben Clark was bounced from first counselor to second counselor. And, and at, at the particular time, even the members of the quorum of the 12 were shocked that that took place, but that it does take place is. Is natural and normal because the guy who becomes the president wants to have the people if he is close to closest to him. For example, there was a little bit of surprise in some parties that Todd Christofferson became the second counselor in the first presidency. But what people don't understand was that during the whole issue when the Supreme Court handed down the decision that same sex marriages were legal.

John Dehlin [01:57:27] Obergefell.

Roger Hendrix [01:57:29] Pardon?

John Dehlin [01:57:30] Obergefell.

Roger Hendrix [01:57:32] What about that?

John Dehlin [01:57:33] That was the Supreme Court decision. That made sense.

Roger Hendrix [01:57:35] That. Exactly. And so in. In Utah that there, there was a lot of concern because the church wasn't for same sex marriages. And so the president of the church at that particular time called a committee to work with the people in the state legislature to iron out how policies would be made statewide that impinged upon institutions like BYU in terms of same sex marriages. Could a same sex marriage couple be in the graduate school at BYU and get housing? Etc. And so Dallin Oaks chaired that committee. And the person he selected as his executive secretary was Todd Christofferson.

John Dehlin [01:58:41] A fellow attorney, Right?

Roger Hendrix [01:58:43] Pardon?

John Dehlin [01:58:43] A fellow attorney.

Roger Hendrix [01:58:44] Fellow attorney, yeah. And Todd Christofferson's history is a fascinating one because he clerked for John J. Sirica during the Watergate hearings, and it was John J. Sirica who put Richard Nixon's Attorney General in prison for lying. And. And it was during that time that Todd Christofferson clerked for John Jay Sirica. So Todd Christofferson has a. Has a fascinating history during times of great stress. And so Dallin Oaks chose him for that committee to be maybe the executive secretary. And Christopherson helped Dallin Oaks form those policies that the church could live with now that same sex marriage was legal. And so Dallin Oaks was the guy who was brought on to the quorum of the 12 originally to work out the church's policies with respect to the gay movement and gay marriages that were. That were being discussed in the various state legislatures around the country. And so Dallin Oaks picked the very man he was closest to who helped him work out same sex marriage policies that the church could abide by and not have a conflict with the state legislature. And so all of a sudden, Todd Christofferson is called in as a second counselor. Why is that? Because Todd Christofferson is a very thoughtful guy. He is. He was on the same mission with me, and he was younger by four months, but I always knew him to be soft spoken, thoughtful, kind, a little bit shy. He wasn't rambunctious like some of us. And. And then he went to Duke Law School and he was the babysitter for the guy who became my stake president, Keith Hillbig. And I was able to get to know about Todd Christofferson a little more as a result of that. And so Christopherson is thoughtful. He is well reasoned, Right?

John Dehlin [02:01:31] Yeah, that makes sense.

Qorum of the 12

John Dehlin [02:02:04] NA Nemo's got a question for you, Roger, about the selection of apostles. Go for it, Nemo.

Nemo [02:02:10] Yeah, so you mentioned, you know, it came up that they were both attorneys. And so I thought it was interesting when you were saying that the quorum of the 12 are selected to speak their mind. But what it seems like they're also selected for is a particular set of professional skills. They seem to be lawyers, businessmen, medical professionals who have then gone into some sort of management in later life. MBAs and lawyers seem to run the church. And so while they're all going to be expressing their opinions and all going to come from different places, a lot of them have very, very similar professional backgrounds. I was wondering if you can see as we're talking about the future of the church, a time in which that changes, in which we see a shift away from this sort of managerial type profession that seems to dominate leadership of the church. Are we going to start to get the, you know, the people who majored in English coming back, the people who majored in the arts coming back? Or is this it now? Is this as humibly predicted, we have the managers and that's it?

Roger Hendrix [02:03:11] Yeah, I definitely think that it will be a well considered topic. For example, Richard Scott was a nuclear physicist. And besides that, he was a painter, a well known painter. And so Richard Scott was a sensitive guy. And one of the reasons he was so shocked when he came into the quorum of the 12 was that the discussion was so frank and he wasn't a he. He's a more gentlemanly, quiet individual, but nevertheless, he had to learn. Nevertheless, he was not a lawyer, he was not a businessman, he was a nuclear physicist. The Brazilian who was brought on to the quorum of the 12 was not a schooled business person, although he was a good management, he was a good manager of church assets. Russell M. Nelson was a medical doctor and a heart surgeon who is brought on. And so you will find that as the church grows, continues to grow. It has to have different voices in the 12 who have had different experiences. And the church understands as well as anyone, as well as I understand that. Yeah. The fear is that you get lopsided and all you're hearing is one point of view coming from one particular place in the organization or in the church. As a management consultant, you know, I was in thousands of discussions where as a consultant, I had to listen to the different points of view. And whenever I'd be called in to consult a CEO, my, my biggest counsel to a CEO is don't, don't bring into your top leadership positions you all of your buddies because they think the same way you think.

Nemo [02:05:58] Have you said that the current prophet has brought in the person that sits next to him and the person that he's friendly with and the person he's like, is confident? Right. That's why

John Dehlin [02:06:07] he's also an attorney.

Roger Hendrix [02:06:09] So are you talking about Christofferson?

Nemo [02:06:11] Well, Christopherson's a fellow attorney, so thinks the same and has that side of him that he wants. So there's that. You said when we were talking about Nelson that the reason Ochtdorf wasn't kept on was because Nelson wanted Oakes, who was his buddy, essentially the person that sat next to him all that time in the quorum. So that would be going against the advice you would give normally to clients and to CEOs, because they are kind of selecting the people that think like them, who are next to them, who are their buddies. You would want them to actually bring in someone who's different. So I'm not like Suarez was still an accountant. He's still a managerial type professional. He's still a white collar professional who, you know, he's not a plumber, he's not a, a bricklayer, he's not a fisherman. He's not, you know, they will still have a certain set of skills.

Roger Hendrix [02:06:58] So, yeah, I think there, there, yeah, there are two sides to this. Number one, let's. When you become the CEO of a company, all of the risks sits with you. Your board of directors is going to hold you accountable for the future of that company. And you have a large company and in the process of becoming the CEO, you haven't always gotten along with everyone. You haven't always been able to be exposed to all the different divisions and expertise. So when you become the CEO, the one thing you want closest to you is the person who knows you best and the person you trust the most. And then after that, you want to make sure that you round out your cabinet so that you don't have everyone as your best buddy. So some Dieter Uchtdor, something had to give for him to get the person he was closest to. And Dieter Uchtdorf just took his place in the quorum of the 12, which didn't come as a surprise for those of us who had been reared in church government for ends of time. And so, and, and so the church is the same way. The church, yes, they will bring on in the quorum of the 12 an African. Why you can't have 3,5 million Africans without having a prominent voice of an African freaking in the quorum of the 12. And so what they'll usually do is the, the, some stake president will be called to be in Area 70. And from an Area 70 he'll become a General Authority 70. From a General Authority 70, he'll be called into the quorum of the 12. And so by that time he will have been schooled in how the church operates, but nevertheless he will be told, we need your viewpoint, your point of view. And the church is just growing too darn fast in Africa.

Nemo [02:09:40] Can I ask a follow up to that then?

Roger Hendrix [02:09:42] Pardon?

Nemo [02:09:43] Can I ask a follow up to that then? Because we have Edward Dube, who, interesting enough, when you google him, it comes up as apostle, even though he's not an apostle. So there's a, interesting typo there. But he has, he's a General Authority 70. We have, from Zimbabwe, we have black African General Authority 70s who are available and ready to go. So how long do you think it will be, Roger, before we see one called as an apostle?

Roger Hendrix [02:10:07] Do you reckon it's based on who dies? And so as a member of the quorum of the 12th or the president of the church dies, or the first prince. A member of the first prince, he dies, then that position opens up.

Nemo [02:10:25] Yeah.

Jeffrey Holland is sick, so who will be the next president

Roger Hendrix [02:10:26] So Dallin Oaks is 93 years old. Henry Irene is 92 years old.

Nemo [02:10:36] And so Holland doesn't look well.

Roger Hendrix [02:10:38] Holland is very sick. And so how sick?

John Dehlin [02:10:42] Do you have a sense for how sick Holland is?

Roger Hendrix [02:10:45] Only what my neighbors are telling me. And that is he's dying now, you know? Yes. Good. Elder Jeffrey Holland is very, very sick. And it's a tough, it's a tough time for him because he is dying, his wife has died. And when five o' clock comes around, no matter who you are, where you live, five o', clock, you go home and you're alone.

Nemo [02:11:24] Yep.

Roger Hendrix [02:11:25] And. And so Jeff Holland is sick. Henry Eyring is 92, Dallin is 93. So you have three people you can reasonably deduce from that that there'll probably be three seats that open up and the guy who becomes the president of the church. And interestingly enough, that is probably going to be Dieter Uchtdorf if you go on health and age. And, and this guy who some of the apostles maybe thought was too liberal, all of a sudden they stopped saying he was liberal and the, the president becomes their, his best friend. Their best friend. So they're going. And so you, you see three seats will open up and so the president of the church, who is the one who chooses the apostle. And so it's, it's, you're going to, you're, you're going to choose from the different parts of the world. You're right, Nemo. And, and, and it's a safe bet that an African is going to become an apostle in your lifetime and probably in my lifetime.

Nemo [02:12:54] Well, because the last three apostles that have been called have all been non Americans. So Suarez was from Brazil, then you had Kieran from the uk, then you had Caucy from France. So if that pattern continues, we will see not only just possibly a black apostle, but as a prediction for the future, we could see a quorum that is made up to half, perhaps within quite a small window with those three openings coming up, they might come in quite quick succession. You could see 6 of the quorum of the 12 being non American born. And that would be in and of itself significant given that the church has only ever had one non American born president of the church, which was John Taylor, who was born in England. Wonderful. So that could shape the future of the church as well. I think that's interesting to note there.

Roger Hendrix [02:13:41] And there have been interesting twists to this. Nemo, for example, Alvin R. Dyer was called as an apostle, but not as a member of the 12 apostles.

Nemo [02:13:56] Yes.

Roger Hendrix [02:13:57] And he was put into the first presidency under David O. McKay. But when David O. McKay died, Alvin R. Dyer as an apostle, was not put into the quorum. He took his place back as a 70. And so you, there's quite a bit of creativity. There was a time when there were five members of the First Presidency when the President became very feeble. And so there, there is more flexibility than we realize. And, and I think you can continue to see the creativity and the flexibility to organize those top leadership positions to represent the feelings, the proclivities of the people, who they are, whom they represent.

Roger Hendricks' Dentist Says He's the Best of the Best

John Dehlin [02:15:00] Right, Roger, we'll just go ahead and say since we got a super chat, we got a super chat from one of your Fans, because a PMP 6444 says Roger is the best of the best. I think it says his tooth team says, hi, I don't know if that's your dental. Do you have a dentist that's watching maybe?

Roger Hendrix [02:15:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:15:26] Looks like your dentist says you're the best of the best, Roger.

Roger Hendrix [02:15:29] That's Dr. Johnson.

John Dehlin [02:15:32] Thanks for the donation, Dr. Johnson. And we agree Roger Hendricks is the best of the best, along with his wife Sherry and daughter Amber. I can't speak for your other kids I've never met. I don't think the other kids, or at least I don't know them as well as Amber, but shout out to all them, Roger, really quickly. We know that the leg, one of the legacies of Russell and Nelson was to announce temples. And, and I think he has announced now over half of all the temples that are supposed to eventually be built,

On the Plan to Build a Temple

Nemo [02:16:10] which is announced 200 by April.

John Dehlin [02:16:14] So do you know, a lot of people felt like he announced too many temples, that there's no way the church could build all those temples. There were reports that the church didn't have the money or the resources to build all the temples that he was announcing. And then, of course, as soon as Oaks becomes president, he says in general conference, we're going to stop announcing so many temples. And then he even goes on to say, we're going to stop. If we do announce a temple, we're not going to necessarily announce it in general conference. Do you have insight into what was going on with all the temple business that you would want to share? And if you don't, I don't, you know, expect you to speculate on things you don't have any knowledge about. But do you have thoughts or knowledge about Nelson's frenetic temple building and Oaks's seeming putting on the brakes?

Roger Hendrix [02:17:10] I have a point of view.

John Dehlin [02:17:11] Okay.

Roger Hendrix [02:17:12] It happened when my wife and I went to Brigham City to visit the grave site, grave sites of my grandmother and grandfather who came over here in 1873 from Denmark. And I pulled into the main, main avenue and there is this, this temple that is far bigger than anything built on the main track of that city. And, and it gave you the feeling that you were in Alice in Wonderland.

John Dehlin [02:17:55] It's known as Woodkey Packard's temple because Wikipedia Packard was from Brigham City.

Roger Hendrix [02:17:59] Right. And. And the temple is huge.

John Dehlin [02:18:02] Yeah.

Roger Hendrix [02:18:03] You can't, you can't miss it. So at first I thought maybe they were indulging in. Maybe they were indulging in, in, in arrogance. But my point of view has changed and it's this. You. For the church to operate and bring up the activity rate of church members worldwide, I think you have to have three things in place, and they're all geographical in nature. You have to have a missionary on the ground, you have to have a chapel, and you have to have a temple. And they all have to be in close proximity to one another so that a person who receives the lesson has to attend church two Sundays in a

John Dehlin [02:19:08] row,

Roger Hendrix [02:19:10] has to pass the interview, be baptized, introduced to the congregation, and then within a year, a year, year and a half, they have to be able to qualify to go to the temple. Well, you have to have the temple close enough for the people who, who have come into the church, who in a year, year and a half can go, go to the temple. And so what they have done is they have placed temples all around the world in close proximity to where there's a missionary on the ground, a chapel, and then a temple. And once you put on that temple garment and once you go through the temple, the, the probability of you remaining active in the church shoots up. And one of the biggest influences is when you're recently baptized and you go to a chapel, you are going to be introduced to couples who have gone to the temple who will tend to be more mature couples, and they will begin to talk to you about how good it'll be that you can go to the temple to receive your endowments and put on the garment of the priesthood. And so the leadership of the church, in my opinion, they have put temples all around the world, so they're close enough geographically so that you have a temple, you have a chapel, and you have a missionary, and, and you stand the best chances of keeping people active going through the whole process and not just part of the process. So in Latin America, they, you know, we started baptizing like crazy, but we didn't have chapels. So the church built the chapels, and that helped in the activity, but the activity rate trailed off. But now that you start having temples where they can take a bus or drive a car or ride a bike to the temple from the chapel, that what you'll see is the activity rate going from maybe 25% to maybe 35%, because once you go to the temple, you are more likely to remain active in the church. And temple is one of the. If you are going to have the full experience, a full gospel experience, you have to go in the temple, you have to take. You have to raise your arm to the square and make promises in the temple, have the garment put on you. And once you do, your life does change. And if by. For some reason you choose not to be active in the church, it's a harder pull to do that.

John Dehlin [02:22:45] So. Any idea why Oaks pulled back?

Roger Hendrix [02:22:49] Well, it's because they had, they. They've got to get the temples built, you know, and dedicated. And, and that's, that's the reason. There was nothing, you know, there was no secondary message in his message that he wasn't going to announce as many temples, and if they did, there wouldn't be in general conference. It just happened to be. That's what President Nelson enjoyed doing, was announcing temples. But the, the more strategic issue is getting the missionary, the chapel and the temple in close proximity.

John Dehlin [02:23:39] Got it.

Mormon Stories and John Delan: Alternative Voices

Roger Hendrix [02:23:39] Now, remember, I'm a person who has had a disagreement with the church on LGBT issues. I don't come as one, as an apologist, but I do believe the church has a great future. Which brings me to a point of why John and I came together. And this is now my third interview. I, I do believe in all honesty, that the church has to have alternative voices. It can't just have its way all the time in how it describes reality. And so every. So when. Because of the Internet, because of the digital age, you then get these men like John Delan who create these podcasts, who have hundreds of thousands of people who tune in and watch it because there is something there for them that maybe they needed, that they weren't getting in their typical church activity. Frankly, I was that person. I was struggling right from the time I came home from being a mission president, was hit with this letter that the first president quorum of the 12, sent out to the whole world about the family. And it was a hit on gays. And, and I'd had problems with the black and the priesthood. And finally that got solved and I thought I no longer had any problems. And then came the issue with gays. And then I stumbled again, and I was searching around and I found this, this refreshing podcast that John had that was uplifting to me and spoke to me and from that. And boy, that was 10 years ago, I guess. Ten years ago, could that possibly be. And, and so John speaks to issues that the, the, the church evidently doesn't speak to. But maybe if we get enough johns around, the church will have even more input and get. Become a better experience for the members. It has been for me. And, and that's why I'm a big supporter of Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [02:26:42] We appreciate it, Roger. And that's a, That's a really cool story. And it's an honor to count you as a viewer and a listener, but also as a dear friend. So thank you for that.

Nemo [02:26:53] Let's do like I was just gonna say, they do like to excommunicate those alternative voices, generally speaking is another important

John Dehlin [02:27:01] alternative voice who's been excommunicated. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

Roger Hendrix [02:27:05] Nemo. You have your, your, you, you have a, a great voice. You have a wonderful point of view. I listen to you. I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm on your wavelength.

John Dehlin [02:27:21] Roger's the Nemo fan. You heard it here first on Mormon Stories podcast.

Will The LDS Church Accept Same-Sex Marriage?

Roger Hendrix [02:27:24] There we go.

John Dehlin [02:27:25] Let's do a lightning round where we do predictions and Roger Niemel and Brooklyn, I want you all to briefly give your wild, baseless, evidenceless predictions around the following questions in a lightning round. So here's my first question. Will the LDS Church ever accept same sex marriage? And if so, how soon or far away? Nemo, you go first.

Nemo [02:28:01] Yes. 25 years.

John Dehlin [02:28:04] Okay, so Nemo's saying by 2050, the LDS Church will accept same sex marriage. Brooklyn.

Brooklyn Alden [02:28:12] Starting out with a hard one, John. I agree. Just based off the fact I think that they are becoming more general Christian in every way. And I think that they change with the times politically and socially. So I have to agree, even though it still sounds like confusing to my Mormon brain how they'd make that work with proclamation of family. I agree, though. At least 30 to 50 years.

John Dehlin [02:28:36] Okay.

Brooklyn Alden [02:28:36] They're so far behind. I mean, they didn't love blacks in the priesthood till 1978. They're a number of decades behind society. But I think they do get there in the end because they're, they want to keep with the tenants.

John Dehlin [02:28:48] All right, so Brooklyn says 30 to 50 years. And yes, Roger, that's a big change, right? I mean, it could be an existential, existentially threatening change, especially for the old guard and the aging membership. But what's your prediction?

Roger Hendrix [02:29:05] I, I think they already accept same sex marriages. I mean, that's a reality. And there are same sex couples who attend church now. I guess your question is, will a same sex couple be able to go to the temple, right? Yeah, I think so. I think that that will, they will make room for that. And if you are going to go, if you're not only going to be a restorationist theology, but you're going to be a humanitarian religion, a great humanitarian religion. Your arms have to be open to all people and, and, and people who are married who are of the same sex. You have to, you definitely have to make room for them if you are true to a humanitarian identity. And so 10, 15 years, I think they will, they will speak to that. Their, their messages will not be harsh and have an edge to it, which tends to, you know, hurt gay couples. They want to bring them in. And, and, and so I definitely think that's on the horizon.

John Dehlin [02:30:59] I went ahead and threw a poll up on YouTube. So those of you who are joining us on YouTube, please subscribe and like the channel. Thanks. We want to get to 300,000. We're like 4 or 5,000 away from 300,000 subscribers on YouTube. Please take a minute to subscribe and like this episode, I went ahead and put a poll up and I'm asking on YouTube, will church eventually allow same sex marriage? And right now, 50, it looks like 62%, 60% are saying no, and 40% are saying yes. So that's what the crowd is saying. We'll do a couple polls. The next question I have is eventually, will the LDS Church allow women to hold the priesthood? Roger, you get to go first on this one. And if so, how far, how far in the distance do you like to make predictions or not so much.

Will The LDS Church Allow Women to Hold the Priesthood?

Roger Hendrix [02:31:56] Well, now, remember, I'm a liberal soul. There, I think there will be, there, there will be the opportunity to have their roles defined with greater authority and greater punch. David O. McKay started that with Sister Parmalee, who was the primary president. And there was a time when the Relief Society presidency had their own building. As a matter of fact, if you go on Temple Square, there is a building called the Relief Society Building. First of all, it was the, it's the, the most attractive building of all, the building on Temple Square. And it was that the Relief Society president, the primary president, they had clout, they had decision making authority, and their decisions held as much weight as any other quorum decisions. And so do I see that coming back or being restored? Yes, I do. Because you can't become a great humanitarian religion unless you embrace all people from all points of view and honor the service they bring with as much authority as anybody else's.

John Dehlin [02:33:42] So you see it happening eventually.

Roger Hendrix [02:33:45] I think I, I already see it happening in the, in the mission field,

John Dehlin [02:33:49] but I mean, ordained women ordained to the priesthood.

Roger Hendrix [02:33:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:33:56] And how many decades?

Roger Hendrix [02:34:01] I think probably in the next five years.

John Dehlin [02:34:04] Whoa, that's a hot take. All right, Brooklyn, you're next.

Brooklyn Alden [02:34:09] I'm interested by that five years prediction, because what I was going to say was I see them allowing LGBTQ marriages in the church before even women. I don't know. I just it feels even more impossible to me, I guess, just as a woman who's always reaching for that in the church. But I'm a bit thrown now by that five year prediction because now I'm questioning everything I ever knew, honestly.

Roger Hendrix [02:34:33] So are you.

John Dehlin [02:34:34] Are you a yes in the end, Brooklyn, or.

Brooklyn Alden [02:34:36] I do think in the end I want to say yes. For some reason, I'm having an even harder time saying yes to that, though, than even the, like, gay marriage question. It just feels even more outlandish to me. And I don't know why, because it was. Maybe. Maybe that would come first, but I would be so shocked. And I was thinking, oh, maybe you know, another 25, 30 years, like we were saying. Five years has me shocked. But that would be amazing.

Roger Hendrix [02:35:05] We already have kings and queens.

John Dehlin [02:35:08] Yeah, but there hasn't even been a president of the United States who's a woman yet. Brooklyn, I'm with you. I think black men.

Nemo [02:35:14] We've had two female prime minister, three female prime ministers.

John Dehlin [02:35:17] Yeah, but you're. The church is rooted in the United States, right? This isn't UK or Israel or India. This is the United States. Michelle Obama recently said, I'm not running for president because America's not ready to elect a woman. I think it's. I think it's true. The black men come next. They got it. But then gay men come next, they still haven't gotten full fellowship. And Brook, I think you're right. Women always come after of black men and gay men. And so, Brooklyn, if you said 30 to 50 years for same sex marriage to be allowed in the temple, that puts women 50 years or more.

Brooklyn Alden [02:35:59] And maybe 50 is a lot, but I disagree. I just always think of society in terms of, like, usually any class of men comes before women, so I would just be surprised if that came first, especially as an American institution.

John Dehlin [02:36:12] No, that's fair. Nemo, what's your vote?

Nemo [02:36:14] Does that. Does that make Community of Christ distinctly un American then? Because they now have a female prophet president in Stacey Cram?

John Dehlin [02:36:21] Yes, it does. It does. And they're also dying. They're also in free falls.

Brooklyn Alden [02:36:26] Yeah, it makes them an unsuccessful American institution. That's why

John Dehlin [02:36:32] even John, even John Hamer, might admit that these days.

Nemo [02:36:36] So my prediction is that I think there's more than one way to skin a cat, as Roger is kind of showing here that there's more than one way to try and bring equality to women. You can either give them the priesthood and that then allows them access to leadership positions, or you can take away the requirement for the priesthood in order to hold a leadership position. I see the church being more likely to do the latter in just taking away the requirement to be a priesthood holder in order to hold certain positions. We're already seeing that in small ways with, you know, sisters being able to witness baptisms now and sisters taking part in church auditing callings and other callings that traditionally would have been given to men that they're saying, oh, well, it doesn't require the priesthood to do X, Y and Z. And so that is something that is already broadening. And I think that will be the stepping stone, if not the final destination of women getting into more equal positions of authority within the church is, or just not requiring the priesthood rather than giving them the priesthood, which just seems so doctrinally difficult. It's easier for the church to just shift the requirements of what a calling requires or what a leadership position requires, which is just saying, well, you don't have to have the priesthood. You can just do these jobs without it.

John Dehlin [02:37:42] Yeah, there's even talk right now of letting women pass the sacrament because, I mean, if people can pass it down a row, women can stand in the aisles and pass it. It's just the blessing.

Nemo [02:37:54] That's, I think it'll go that way rather than ordaining women. Yeah, that's just my position. And I, I, I'm going to split the difference on the predictions. I'm going to go with 15 years.

John Dehlin [02:38:03] Okay. All right, the, the consensus amongst the poll of those of you who are joining us on YouTube live with the poll. It looks like 40% of you who voted say, yes, the LDS Church will eventually allow women to hold the priesthood. 60% of our live YouTube audience is saying, no, women will never hold the priesthood in the Mormon Church. All right, the next question. This is fun. We'll just ask a few more and then we'll wrap up. And Roger, you've got a personal insight into this because I think at some point you have been affiliated with the tea industry a little bit. Lots of people are curious to know, will the LDS Church ever sort of allow what Emo.

Will the LDS Church Ever Allow Tea and Coffee in the Temple?

Nemo [02:38:47] Get your hands off our tea, all of you.

John Dehlin [02:38:51] Yeah, Many people are asking, will the LDS Church ever allow tea and coffee and, and sort of lift the prohibition on tea and coffee to have a temple recommend. Roger, what's your prediction and if so, how soon?

Roger Hendrix [02:39:08] Yes, I, I think that's, that's an easy one because so many different cultures have tea as a ceremonial drink as well as a traditional drink. And even down in Argentina, when I was Missionary the favorite drink was mate and it was a type of tea and so you could get your temple recommend drinking mate and and you know we can get to a point where I we are so humanitarian that, that there is nothing left that describes you as a Mormon. But I think that the coffee and

Brooklyn Alden [02:40:08] tea,

Roger Hendrix [02:40:10] they will be more lax on that and probably already are. I don't see that as a big issue that will hold things up.

Prediction: Tea and Coffee Will Be Allowed in the Church

John Dehlin [02:40:24] All right, tea loving Nemo in the UK what's your prediction with tea and coffee?

Nemo [02:40:28] 16th of December 1773 Never forget. I, I think as the church expands I think Roger's quite right that you know it will have to, it'll have to relax. The church is going to have to become accepting of new cultures. I think generally the church has been so American for so long. I think that's its biggest cultural hang up and as it expands into the rest of the world it's going to have to accept certain things. I think it already is doing an and it's changing things. The church has not been consistent on the word of wisdom for a very long time. If you ask any American in, you know, in Utah, particularly any American members of church in Utah how much red meat they consume whether they consume it within season or within times of famine etc, I think you know they're going to fail the word of wisdom test. So yeah, I think they'll allow it. I think tattoos are already starting to come in as an example of one of those key cultural Mormon things that's now going away because the for the strength of youth one time didn't specifically like very specifically prohibit it. So now people are going oh I guess if you want but what I my prediction is it will be allowed. There will be no acknowledgment that it ever wasn't allowed. That just one cup of coffee talk will disappear somewhere down the memory hole. Or she was just speaking her own personal opinion and, and yeah, I think in the next five years tea and coffee is just not going to keep you out of the temple. They're not going to be encouraging people to drink it but it will be, it will, it won't even be a follow up in a temple recommend. Question do you keep the word of wisdom might still be in there but if you say yes or I'm not sure they won't list what do you drink tea or coffee. It will be alcohol and cigarettes. Okay, that will be it Brooklyn.

Brooklyn Alden [02:42:28] Yeah, I pretty much agree with Nemo there. I think the word of wisdom has already kind of lived differently to a lot of different Mormons. And everyone justifies it in their own ways. And I mean, I remember I was probably in high school when I think it was Monson come out and said that we enjoy Diet Coke in our family. And, you know, then they started allowing Diet Coke in byu and that felt huge to me. And I feel like that was beginning of a slippery slope that I think is going to go in the direction of caffeinated beverages are fine. I also think that the tea and coffee is one of the most confusing things to justify in the word of Wisdom because it's like, well, if it's just about health, then why are we eating so much sugar? Why do we drink so much soda in Utah? You know? So it becomes confusing to make sense of where when I was Mormon it was, well, because God asked you to. And that's the test of faith. Not even because it's unhealthy, but because, you know, he's just saying, are you going to stay faithful to it? And I think that was always the hardest thing to justify with the word of Wisdom. So I agree. I think it probably already depends what bishop you have if they're even going to care about that in a temple worthiness interview.

John Dehlin [02:43:39] Yeah, 100%. I know, I know. Bishops and stake presidents, if you tell them you don't believe anymore, they'll still call you into the bishopric or even as bishop as long as you're willing to not tell the members. And we know that cannabis or marijuana use is pervasive throughout the church. Now, I haven't heard of anyone being disciplined for using cannabis. We know that there are bishops and stake presidents and high counselors and relief study presidents taking psychedelics, mushrooms, lsd, ketamine, whatever. And I, I think it's harder and harder to justify prohibiting coffee and tea and beer when you've got members taking mushrooms and ketamine on the regular and marijuana. So just quickly for the poll, I asked the YouTube live stream viewers and we've got 78%. Yes, that the church will eventually lift the tea and coffee prohibition and 22% saying no. So that's fun. Roger, a couple quick things. Are you aware of people being excommunicated recently for reject publicly rejecting the idea that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? Have you followed that at all?

Roger Chokes on the Church Excommunicating People for Critic

Roger Hendrix [02:44:59] I, I have heard that a person was excommunicated or that there was a church court held on a person who said Joseph Smith did not live polygamy.

John Dehlin [02:45:14] Yeah. Just two weeks ago, Karen Hyatt was excommunicated. For saying publicly that people should read the historical documents more carefully, that the church has withheld important documents from them, like the original section 101 of the doctrine and Covenants that prohibited polygamy. Her basic position was not that it was her conclusion that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy, but that members should reconsider that belief and read the documents to make their own decision. She was excommunicated for that. Do you have thoughts on the church excommunicating people for publicly questioning Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy?

Roger Hendrix [02:46:02] I have pretty firm beliefs about church courts in general.

John Dehlin [02:46:13] What are those?

Roger Hendrix [02:46:15] I don't like them. When I became a mission president, had to hold a couple of courts and finally called Salt Lake City and said, I'm not going to communicate or hold any more courts on missionaries. I can send them home for bad behavior, but I'm not going to hold a court. It's too severe, it's too medieval. And so the next thing I know, I get a call from the area president who is a fellow by the name of Lynn Mickelson. And he basically said, you're a man after my own heart. And he and I were worked very closely together. And now with regard to polygamy, you know, no, if I don't like courts, I don't like people being brought into courts. And so I'm not a fan of church courts and people being excommunicated. You can, you know, you can tell people those things without having a court held on them.

John Dehlin [02:47:45] Why would you guess that Downey Chokes is concerned about there being, let's just say, a five digit number of members and a growing number of members who are no longer believing that. That Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Why would you guess down the jokes? Would care about that enough to start excommunicating the leaders of that movement if you had to guess.

Roger Hendrix [02:48:10] Well, he married a second time, so he's a polygamist. He must call his wife the second wife. I mean, and you had Russell Nelson, second wife. And. And you had Howard W. Hunter, second wife. And it looks like the. Well, was polygamy practiced by Mormons in Illinois? Answer yes. Was there the teaching of polygamy as early as 1832? Yes. Who was the first person who practiced polygamy? Oliver Cowdery. And Joseph Smith brought him down on that saying, you know, I'll tell you when we can practice.

John Dehlin [02:49:07] Well, you're saying Oliver practiced polygamy before Joseph?

Roger Hendrix [02:49:09] Yeah, it was the first one, but he practiced it out of Order.

John Dehlin [02:49:14] I did not know that.

Roger Hendrix [02:49:15] And. And so we did practice plural marriage in this church. We no longer practice it. But when you get into cultures here. My favorite subject, back to Africa.

John Dehlin [02:49:36] The Middle east and Africa. Yeah, yeah.

Roger Hendrix [02:49:38] You know, as a matter of fact, in the Middle east, when we did business, my wife and I and my oldest son were treated to dinner from a very famous Bedouin family. And we were introduced to the first wife, then we were introduced to the second wife, and then we were introduced to the children. And so that was just a normal practice of polygamy in the Middle east in. In that particular religious religion. Practice of religion in the Middle East. And so, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with practicing polygamy, but we don't practice it anymore. And as for me, I'm happy being married to one woman 58 years. And. And. And so we.

John Dehlin [02:50:48] We.

Roger Hendrix [02:50:50] But, you know, there are different parts of the world that practice polygamy, and there are even histories where a woman had more than one husband. So we've been creative as human beings on that practice.

John Dehlin [02:51:08] And it's an interesting question to ask. None of us know if eventually the church will allow polygamous families in Africa and the Middle east to even join the church to become members. But as of now, missionaries can't even teach to Muslims, as I understand it, in those Muslim countries, if we have church employees or missionaries even there, my understanding is they have to promise not to teach to Muslims. They can only teach the gospel to Christians or non Muslims.

Roger Hendrix [02:51:38] Right, right. That's a touchy issue.

John Dehlin [02:51:41] Yeah. Okay, really quickly, Roger, as we're wrapping up today, you've been very generous with your time and sagacious in your wisdom and Nemo, it's been great to have you and Julia in Brooklyn as well. Roger, as you know, we've seen the church change in so many ways. Reducing sacrament meeting from the Sunday experience from three hours to two, lowering the mission age, neutering the temple, shortening the garments. You know, so many changes. I could list them on and on and on and on. Do you. You know, there's an argument in the social sciences that the more a church demands of its members, the more devoted the members are, and the less the church demands of the members, the weaker the loyalty is to the church. You're a. I would say you're more liberal, more progressive. You want the church to move in more liberal and progressive ways. Is it your opinion that that will likely weaken the average member's devotion to the church? If the church continues as the church has become more liberal or progressive, and if it continues to do so,

Will More Liberal Members Join the Church?

Roger Hendrix [02:52:53] yes, I think that in the future you will have a new kind of member coming into the church who will be impressed by the church's goodness and kindness as opposed to its strictness. And they'll come in because it's a great humanitarian effort as opposed to a great restorationist effort. It will never lose its restorationist proclivities. But as a great humanitarian religion that's willing to go and preach to the poorest of the poor and bring them up and educate them and help them grow and meet their needs, as basic as they may be, the people who will be attracted to the church will be that kind of people. People. And so they may feel differently. They may be not as, as tight, tightly wound as we have in the church today, but they will be as good, they will probably be kinder, they will be more expansive. Because the church is going to be expansive, I hope. Before we cut off, John, you asked me about your letter to the masses, about people thinking that you're a dog for attending sacrament meeting every once in a while.

I reached out to my bishop about attending church again

John Dehlin [02:54:47] So, yeah, let's hear it, Roger. Yeah, so just for people who don't know, recently I reached out to my bishop. I was just, I, you know, I've been in my neighborhood now since 2018, 2017, so I've been in my neighborhood eight years. And I really don't know many of my neighbors besides a couple. And I just had the idea. I've kind of sometimes missed singing hymns. I kind of miss getting together with members of my local community. So a month or two ago, I got the phone number, the cell number of my local bishop in the area of Salt Lake where I live. And I texted him and I said, hey, Bishop, my name's John. I know one of your nephews. I'd love to come to church, but I don't want to get in trouble. I don't want to cause a stir. You know, I don't want to get that Curt McConkey, do not step foot on any church property letter that some have gotten. And mostly I just don't want to be a disruption, but because of who I am, but also without any nefarious, with only good intent and just a personal desire to fellowship with the saints. Can I come to church? And I still have not yet heard back. I know I got the right cell phone number, and I'm pretty sure he received it because the fellow family member that we have in common has followed up. So I know he's received the text, but he has so far chosen not to respond. So I haven't yet decided to go. But just last week I was visiting my dad in Florida and my stepmom sang in church, so I attended church. And I've been writing a little bit about this idea that the church isn't going away. We need to build bridges. We can't have these silos of ex Mormons hating on believers and mocking believers and believers mocking and hating on ex Mormons. What if we started to try and bridge, build and come together more and be more in communication and even support various pathways? And just sometimes I miss church and thought it would be fun, not necessarily to return as a member, not return, not ask for my membership back or pay tithing again, but just attend. And yes, Roger, many members of the ex Mormon community, maybe not the majority, but let's just say a handful, called me a traitor, called me disgusting, said that I was undermining 20 years of Mormon Stories podcast and destroying the value of, of what Mormon Stories has done for the community by even suggesting that I would step foot in a Mormon chapel again. So I wrote a substack post about that. Maybe Brooklyn and Julie can include that in the show notes, but that's just giving people the background so that we can hear your opinion. So, Roger, let us have it if you want.

Roger Hendrix [02:57:59] Well, I think that's. That letter that you wrote was wonderful. It was one of those all inclusive letters. The umbrella is large and, and large enough to take in all comers when the rain comes. And, and I have not been going to church for maybe as long as 10 years now. And, and, and I have walking companions who think of every reason why I should go back to church. But then my wife said, when are you gonna, when are you going to go back to church? And I said, probably in a couple, couple of months from now, I will attend sacrament meeting. What I like about the schedule now is you start out with sacrament meeting, then your second hour is broken up either in, in Sunday school or in Priesthood Relief Society. Every other week you do one, then you do the other. And so what I. And it's only an hour sacrament meeting. And so I think that I will start attending sacrament meeting again. Now. The issue of LGBT inclusion, well, they include the lg. They include gays and lesbians. What they have a problem with is gay marriage. But I do know of couples who attend church who are gay couples. And so I. The person who really had an impact on me, which I never thought would be the case, was Russell Nelson. He never, in his conference talks, I wasn't blown away by them. They seemed pretty standard to me. But it was his life and what he is doing with the church. And so I, I, he, he has had an impact on me and my wife and I will be attending sacrament meeting now, probably not every Sunday, but at least going there and sitting and, and sitting with friends who are in the congregation. And so I feel good about that. That's why I believe that Russell Nelson, his impact on the church would have to rival that of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. He, he has had a mark on the trajectory of the church that is, is changing the church not only from a restorationist church but to a humanitarian church. That makes me feel good.

John Dehlin [03:01:25] Love it. Thank you for that, Roger. Let me just ask Brooklyn, can you imagine any scenario where you would want to attend church again, even on a limited basis? And then that's a separate question from whether you would actually want to sort of re. Engage in full fellowship and you might be muted. So

Neither Brooklyn nor I attend church anymore

Brooklyn Alden [03:01:49] yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:50] What's your answer to that?

Brooklyn Alden [03:01:51] No, that's an interesting question. And I would have answered differently over the years. You know, my family left the church in about 2014, 2015 more, you know, full stop left the church. And after that point I was still, you know, I left around the time I graduated high school. So I still had lots of friends going on missions. So it was a lot of going to church for, you know, the farewells and the homecomings. And there was a time when I was going as a non member to a lot of those, especially mission farewells and homecomings. And I kind of hit a point where I was not only like not enjoying it, but feeling like not a good feeling from it, not feeling welcome, I think because it was kind of a loud exodus of my family and our stake. And so at that time I hit a point where I was like, I can't attend anymore. I'm sorry to my friends that, you know, are coming home from missions. I just don't feel like it's a good space for me anymore to go to church. So there was a point in my deconstruction and over the last 10 years when I hit a point where I was like, I, it's not healthy for me to be in a church building anymore. I don't enjoy it. It kind of, you know, would put me in a place of anxiety after leaving just because of a bunch of different reasons. I think as I've had more distance and softened on it, I'd probably feel fine. I don't know, going to. It's been years and years since I've actually been to church meeting. So I don't even know what it's like now. So it's hard for me to say. I personally just, in my own life, I see what church and religion can bring to a lot of people. I personally just think I don't necessarily need it. Just in my personal life, I think I see other people that could benefit more from it and it's just something I don't think I gain a lot from. So I don't personally see myself going back to church. I am 10 years out and I still every Sunday honestly feel like, oh, I'm so happy I don't have to go to church today. You know, that might be rude to admit, but I'm always so happy that I get to have that time to myself and I get to have an actually relaxing Sunday because Mormons miss out on that a lot. So almost every Sunday, I'll put it this way, I'm happy that I get the Sunday to myself and I'm not going to church and I haven't felt a desire for it or like I'm missing that space in my life. But like I said, I've been to different places over the years and who knows how I may change my feelings on that in the future. I don't know. It's a hard question, though.

John Dehlin [03:04:23] It is. Thanks. Thanks. Brooklyn Nemo. You've been excommunicated. You're in a bit more of a position like me. Do you still attend occasionally and, or do you have feelings about ever attending again?

Brooklyn Nemo on His Exodus

Nemo [03:04:39] I, I'm, I'm still shaken by the assessment that, that Russell M. Nelson has got. Had size of impact on the church names Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. I feel the ghost of Peter Bleakley weighing on me. I was having a conversation with Peter Bakeley the other, just the other night and we were talking about how Russell M. Nelson's legacy may well be the man who killed the Mormon Church because. But he ruined the branding of the name Mormon. Took away that PR moment, that positive momentum, that sort of stuff. So that's a conversation for another time. But I, I would love to hear you and Peter talk about that, Roger, because I think that would be fascinating in terms of my attendance at church. I will attend quite happily. I, yeah, I always felt comfortable. The problem is it just depends what con creation because in Oxford Ward, where I was at one point, that was a place where I was very comfortable and happy and able to, you know, speak out and it was a very progressive ward. There are other wards where I attend where it's not the case and I have to kind of just sit and be quiet. So, yeah, I can. I'm perfectly comfortable in the buildings. I'm perfectly comfortable to attend. Quite happy to do so. I. It's still my community, still my people.

John Dehlin [03:05:55] Have you attended centuries Communication Nemo? Okay, okay. Yeah, got it. All right, here's what Roger are. Before I ask a final question, Roger, is there anything else you wanted to make sure we covered today or do you feel like we covered the main things?

Mormon Stories and the Church

Roger Hendrix [03:06:11] Boy, we've. We've covered the waterfront.

John Dehlin [03:06:17] Is that a lot or a little?

Roger Hendrix [03:06:20] That's a lot. It's to the point where I can't think of anything more.

John Dehlin [03:06:24] Okay, cover. Here's my last question. In our private lunches, you've kind of referred. I don't know if this is the word you've ever used, but like the Church of Mormon stories. In other words, this intellectual and social engagement with the church that's more open minded, more secular, maybe more progressive or liberal as something that you actually enjoyed and that you see potentially being the types of conversations that might even move the needle within the church. Can you see the church, the average church discourse, someday being comparable to the average Mormon stories level of conversation? In other words, will the church ever move more liberal, more progressive, more secular in its core mainstream? Do you see that ever happening? And if so, will that be good for the church or like with the community of Christ, devastating for the church to move in that direction?

Roger Hendrix [03:07:29] During the time of David O. McKay, he was brought on to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles because he had really emphasized Sunday school. And Sunday school was a provocative idea. And David O. McKay built the whole idea of Sunday school around Sunday worship. And. He had O.C. tanner develop some of the manuals and it was. It was more like Mormon stories. It was very thoughtful.

John Dehlin [03:08:23] Yeah.

Roger Hendrix [03:08:24] And then he died. And then a new generation of very conservative apostles came into the leadership and they batted down this more open approach. Do I see it coming back to that? Yes, I already see it coming back to that. What are some of the things in Mormon stories that are appealing to me and I think to many people? And that is for the many hours that I've been in front of John, being queried and asked, and I've never felt judged. He's not a judgmental person, very open and. And I think that our Sunday services are going in that direction. I. I believe that Sunday services are for all. It's a Place where we all go to be healed. And to be healed you have to have kind people who minister unto the wounds. And I see the church definitely going in that direction. Now. There will always, as Armand Moss put it there, there will always be going

John Dehlin [03:10:05] forward assimilation and retrenchment. Right, right.

Roger Hendrix [03:10:08] And then retrenching a bit. And I don't mind that at all. But I, I do like the assimilation. I like that model. And like anybody else, I, I, I need my needs ministered unto. And so the answer is yes, I see an open giving sort of religious experience and, and that's how I'd answer that, John.

What Would It Take To Make Nemo The Mormon?

John Dehlin [03:10:46] All right, so here's the final question for the whole group. I'm going to ask each of you. So Nemo and Brooklyn, get ready. What would it take to bring you back into full tithe paying activity? Nemo, I'm going to have you go first. What would it take to make Nemo the Mormon? If they'd say Nemo will re baptize you. If you'll become a tithe payer and be fully active, what would your terms or conditions be? And then Brooklyn and then Roger will end with you. Go ahead, Nemo.

Nemo [03:11:16] Unsurprisingly, I have a long list. So it's, it's quite simple for me actually. They would have to engage in financial transparency and commit to doing a reasonable amount of charitable work. Faith blind charitable work, not just 800 million in fast offerings, which is great, but it only helps those who pay tithes in the first place. So genuine faith blind charity work outside of themselves, they have to commit to doing that with financial transparency. Step one, step two, they would have to give me a specific list of things that I did wrong that I can actually repent of. So I can then actually repent and come back to the Church. Because at the moment it's still unclear exactly what I was excommunicated for and what sin I've committed that needs repenting of. So I would need that laying out for me. And third, I would.

John Dehlin [03:12:07] It was limo Nemo. It was criticizing the Brethren. Come on, you criticism.

Nemo [03:12:12] No leader of the church has put that in writing.

John Dehlin [03:12:15] No, of course, because that makes you

Nemo [03:12:17] know, that's why wasn't even in the report that was sent to the first Presidency.

John Dehlin [03:12:21] Right. But they don't want to put in writing the real reasons why they discipline people. But you know, it was because you, but that's like the brethren.

Nemo [03:12:28] I would need the church, I would need my priesthood leaders to counsel me on what it is, what sin I have Committed.

John Dehlin [03:12:34] Okay.

Nemo [03:12:35] That I may repent of it. So I may return to the church.

John Dehlin [03:12:38] Okay. Anything else?

Nemo [03:12:39] I would need a written apology from down 8 jokes for initiating this in the first place.

John Dehlin [03:12:44] Okay.

Nemo [03:12:45] I would need to return to the church.

John Dehlin [03:12:47] All right, thank you.

Nemo [03:12:48] Don't ask for much, John.

John Dehlin [03:12:49] What's that?

Nemo [03:12:50] I don't ask for much. A man of simple needs.

John Dehlin [03:12:52] That actually is a very short list. Brooklyn, let's have you go.

Brooklyn Alden [03:12:57] Oh, yeah. Another tough question for me, honestly, because I just think theologically I'm in a very different, different space than anything the church can provide for me nowadays. My beliefs do not align with a lot of what the church does anymore. So that's the thing. I don't think I would gain anything from going to modern day Mormon Church. I'll just be super upfront, hopefully no judgment from the audience. But I don't have a belief in God anymore and it has made my life more peaceful and comforting. And for me it just makes the world wake more sense that way. I, I maybe put it towards agnostic of like, could be, you know, willing to change my mind at any time if something makes more sense to me. But for me, what makes the most sense is like science, evolution. And I don't really see it makes less sense for me to try to figure out into that. So I don't, you know, see what I would be getting from church or why I would give them money. But if we're going, you know, the financial, I'll say all the things Nemo said as well of like financial transparency. I would want to see equal treatment of women and LGBTQ people in the church of just basically everyone, you know, because that's my big issue. I don't, I even have problems other people giving money to the church when I'm like, it's not treating people equally, so how do you justify that? But, and I was actually thinking this while we were talking about the wealth of the church and everything, because something I kind of joke about all the time with my close friends, we were talking about the church finances is I feel like the church has so much money, they have the capacity to almost like to make great change in the world.

John Dehlin [03:14:33] But

Brooklyn Alden [03:14:36] that's the joke I make all the time of like, I think the Mormon Church has the capacity to cure world hunger. I think they've said, UN has said it's something like a hundred billion dollars a year for so many years or whatever. And I mean, obviously the church probably doesn't have quite that much, but I think they have a capacity of Like Mormon Church. I'll put it out there. If you say you have a goal of curing world hunger in the next 10 years, I don't care if I don't believe the doctrine. I will pay money towards that because I feel like that's a good charitable organization of someone that says we're determined to cure world hunger or, you know, any number of other. It could end malaria causes. What was that? Nemo?

Nemo [03:15:13] They could end malaria?

Brooklyn Alden [03:15:15] Yes, something like that. Of like, show me a big quantifier change you're gonna make, not just small things here and there. And I will put money towards that because I like donating to charity, and I want to see things change. So I feel like they, with their finances, have a. And with their army of missionaries that they have that will do anything they say. I think they have a huge capacity for major change in the world that goes underutilized. And if they do something good with that, I'll pay tithing, even if I don't believe

John Dehlin [03:15:44] that's good. All right, Roger, what would it take to bring you back into full fellowship, including paying tithing?

Returning to Full Fellowship

Roger Hendrix [03:15:54] I don't mind paying tithing. I do have a reserve fund of tithing that if I were to come back, I would bring that up to speed. And I think as it becomes a great humanitarian religion, I would join in fellowship with it, to participate in it. Goodness knows, I've done the missionary side of it. I know what it takes to build the membership of the church and foreign lands. And they do a good job there. The humanitarian one. I have no problem in participating in that now. I have to get over the problem of this harshness toward gays and lesbians and same sex marriage couples. And they could stop that immediately by the types of statements they make, types of statements the first presidency makes in their messages to the world. That wouldn't be a problem at all. And I have a sense that that might be coming about in the next five to ten years.

John Dehlin [03:17:41] Ah, wow. You heard it. You heard it.

Roger Hendrix [03:17:45] I have no problem in joining in fellowship with them in those great causes, but I still have a disagreement.

John Dehlin [03:18:01] I guess if Oakes, Eyring and Holland all pass away in a relatively short amount of time, Uchtdorf takes over, and if he's for same sex marriage in the church, in the temples, maybe he could just override the quorum, pull Oaks, Nelson and ram that through without even quorum unanimity. You think that's even in the cards of possibility? Because I'm sure I don't know cook or Bednar would be opposed to that type of move.

Roger Hendrix [03:18:36] Well, you never know. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Jeff hall became the president of the church? A man who is feeble, he is sick, and he becomes the spiritual leader of a church that is known for its youth and its dynamism. I know that Jeff Holland is a more progressive person. I know his heart is pure in that regard.

John Dehlin [03:19:15] You worked with him in ces, right?

Roger Hendrix [03:19:17] Right. For a while. He was my boss. And so. And so I. I think that Jeff Holland would be a wonderful prophet. He is next in line after Dallin Oaks. It won't. And. And so, you know, you never know. And then you have Dieter Uchtdorf.

Nemo [03:19:45] Can I just jump in a sec? Because I have a question for you, Roger, about Holland. I've heard through individuals who may be in the know that the musket fire talk that Holland gave was a talk that he didn't necessarily want to give. Does that statement ring true to you? Is that possible that he might have given that talk?

Honorary Apostle Holland on the Musket Talk

Roger Hendrix [03:20:04] Yeah, he. He made it very.

Nemo [03:20:06] Else.

Roger Hendrix [03:20:07] He made it very clear in that talk. And you might go back and watch that talk again. He was giving his personal comments and personal feelings, and then he made it very clear to the people to whom he was speaking. Now I'm on assignment, and I need to do the business of the church. And so he was sent there to give the musket talk, and it set him back in terms of his popularity with the masses of members. But, you know, at that particular time, he was given an assignment by the First Presidency, and he delivered it with full force.

Nemo [03:21:05] So you don't think that the talk he gave or that part of the talk he gave reflects his personal opinion?

Roger Hendrix [03:21:12] I. I don't think that when these brethren get assignments from the First Presidency that they. They always receive them as what would be part of their personal opinion or their personal stance. Okay. It's. When you become an apostle,

John Dehlin [03:21:36] you.

Roger Hendrix [03:21:37] You sacrifice your personal opinions to the greater. To the greater good of what the prophet of the church wants to do and how he wants to direct the church. And so, no, I'm. I'm pretty sure this does not reflect Brother Holland's personal feelings.

Nemo [03:22:03] So going. Going back to what you said earlier, then, that people are brought into the 12 because they. They want to go into the quorum of conversation, and they're there for their opinions, and they're brought in for their opinions. They are, to a point. But then ultimately, when they go out on assignment, those opinions have to be subjugated to the Will of the first presidency and the prophet.

Roger Hendrix [03:22:20] Yeah, I, I, you, when you get into a discussion with people, you're supposed to have differences of opinion. You're supposed to Bush, push up against one another, test assumptions and, and then the prophet takes it in, prays about it, and then says, this is the way we want to go. Right. And I'm not sure that anything that is ultimately decided goes in accordance with the personal predilections of each person. That was really, that's really been my experience as a member of a stake presidency and then as a mission president, I gave my opinions, and especially as a member of the board of trustees, I gave my opinions. And sometimes they were close to what I felt. More often than not, they went in a different direction. And so that's, that's just how you, you make that agreement when you, when you say yes to the assignments.

Interview With Roger Hendricks

Nemo [03:23:37] Okay,

John Dehlin [03:23:39] all right, well, thank you. I just received a comment that, Roger, I think you'll be really happy with, that maybe sums up what I'm hoping our viewers and listeners felt overall today. Valen Beebe writes, I love this interview. Honestly, so calming. And everyone is open to hearing and accepting truth that are discomforting. And I will just say that if you loved this episode, you'll really love my interview with Roger. My original interview with Roger, I thought it was like 11 hours total of hearing him talk about growing up in the church in Southern California, eventually becoming a seminary institute teacher. Eventually he knew Paul Dunn. He worked with Jeffrey R. Holland. So he had that whole life in CES working at the University of Southern California and elsewhere. And then he switched to management consultant because bishop becomes stake presidency member, mission president. We talked a lot about the, the church in Chile and in Latin America and the baptism, low quality baptism epidemic there and what that was like in Latin America for the church to do beach baptisms and baseball baptisms, soccer baptisms. And then he talks about coming home feeling like he was being groomed to be a general authority, deciding that that wasn't really what he was looking for necessarily. And then eventually working for the Deseret Trust Company and, you know, under the call of Gordon B. Hinckley. It's a great series. I highly recommend it. It's definitely one of the top 10 most enjoyable and interesting interviews I think I've done on Mormon stories. And, and then you can also watch his previous future Mormonism episode to see how much of a profit he is because many of the things you talked about then have come true, right, Roger?

Roger Hendrix [03:25:37] Like what?

John Dehlin [03:25:38] I don't know.

Roger Hendrix [03:25:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:25:39] You said pathways. Yeah. We're going to be big. And they have been.

Roger Hendrix [03:25:45] Yeah.

Nemo [03:25:46] So anyway, am I gonna regret having disagreed with Roger?

John Dehlin [03:25:51] Most certainly. Nemo. Most people are gonna, you know, regret disagreeing with Roger Hendricks. Right, Roger?

Roger Hendrix [03:25:57] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

John Dehlin [03:26:00] I'm just joking. Anyway, Roger's great. We'll put his past episodes in the show notes. We highly recommend it. Roger, we really appreciate you sharing your wisdom and experience with us. Well, I hope you had a good time.

Roger Hendrix [03:26:14] I loved it. I, I, and I, I loved the panelists.

John Dehlin [03:26:19] I, you like, you like Brooklyn? You think Brooklyn's okay?

Roger Hendrix [03:26:23] I, I, I, I love the panelists. I, I thought it was thoughtful. It was engaging, even.

John Dehlin [03:26:31] Nemo.

Roger Hendrix [03:26:32] I love Nemo.

John Dehlin [03:26:34] Yeah.

Roger Hendrix [03:26:35] And yeah, yeah, I, I, I enjoyed this format. I felt comfortable. And as always, John, thank you very much. You're a very thoughtful person.

John Dehlin [03:26:49] Well, thanks for being my friend, mostly, but also thanks for your support of me. You've been a real encouragement for me even when I was feeling down and out. You've always probably been very, very generous in your support and praise in lots of ways. So, Roger, thanks for being my friend.

Roger Hendrix [03:27:10] Thank you, John. You are my friend.

John Dehlin [03:27:14] And, Brooklyn, it is so lovely to have you as a panelist. The only regret I have is that we haven't gotten you on sooner, but we're going to fix that. So thanks for joining us, Brooklyn.

Brooklyn Alden [03:27:25] Oh, thank you, John. That's so sweet of you. I mean, I enjoy listening to them whenever I'm here, but it's on the scene, so it's nice to get to chime in every once in a while. And Roger, enjoyed you so much as well. You're fascinating to listen to, and I would love to talk about history and religious history with you all day because I thought that was fascinating.

Roger Hendrix [03:27:44] Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:27:46] And Nemo, how can people support you? It's giving time. Tis the season. Does Nemo the Mormon accept donations?

Nemo [03:27:57] Org Nemo the Mormon. I have a Patreon if you want to go join that you join. The tiers are named after the shell companies that the church set up, so.

John Dehlin [03:28:09] That's cheeky. That's cheeky, as we say in the uk Indeed.

Nemo [03:28:13] So if you join shell company number two, you'll see bonus videos that I do about my life behind the scenes, making videos, how I come up with ideas, all that sort of fun stuff. But you can support me through that donor box however you like. Really become a channel member. Just go over to YouTube and subscribe. That's pretty fun. It doesn't cost you Anything. So it's a tough time of year for some people. So don't go spending money you don't have, please and thank you.

A message about Donor's Funding

John Dehlin [03:28:35] All right. All right. Well, thanks again. Nemo, Brooklyn and Julia who had to leave early and Roger. At the end of the year, I just want to thank all of our donors. We couldn't do any of this without the Oba Stories foundation donors, Mormon Stories donors. So thank you. If you do donate, it is the end of the year and if you're not a donor and you want to see us continue, believe it or not, we had many, many people cancel their donations just because I said that I might go back to church and attend a sacrament meeting every once in a while. So if you value. You just laughed, Roger. No, that's how strongly people feel. So that's fine if you feel that way. If you don't feel that way and you don't want to see Mormon Stories go away just because it's host said occasionally he might be willing to attend a sacred meeting. You can go to mormonstories.org donate and become a monthly donor. And maybe we can replace the number of donors that canceled. For me making that statement, all your donations are tax deductible in the US we're transparent on finances and we really appreciate the support. So thanks for a great year, everybody. I don't know that I'm going to be doing any more recordings between now and the end of the year. We do have several recordings in the queue and several, several really good episodes that we built. We will, we have already recorded that we will be releasing. So stay tuned for many, many good episodes. We want your feedback about how you enjoyed Mormon stories in 2025. If you've got feedback on what you'd like to see in 2026, please email me@mormonstoriesmail.com you can also leave comments here on YouTube. We really, we read every comment and we really appreciate those comments. So give us your feedback, give us your support. Merry Christmas. Happy Hanukkah, Mary Kwanzaa, Happy New Year. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories and we hope to see you all again soon in 2026 for another year of Mormon Stories podcast and Nemo the Mormon and for any other Mormon themed content that you consume. Thanks everyone. Take care and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Happy New Year. Take care.