Generally Unquotable

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Foreign. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Mormon News Podcast, brought to you by Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your co host for today, John Dehlin. It is August 8, 2026, and I'm here with Meggan from Generally unquotable. Hey, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [00:00:20] Hey. Hi, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] Thanks for joining us.

Meggan Hayes [00:00:23] Yeah, you bet.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] How was Sunstone?

Meggan Hayes [00:00:25] Oh, it was amazing.

John Dehlin [00:00:26] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:00:27] Yes. I. There were so many good sessions. I wish it was a week long so that I could attend every session and I didn't have to choose.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] And was this your coming out party for being an international celebrity?

Meggan Hayes [00:00:39] I wouldn't have said that. But you know what? It was really nice.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Oh, let me frame it. Were you recognized once or twice?

Meggan Hayes [00:00:47] Yes, Yes. I was going to say it was really nice to meet people in person who I have seen in my comments section.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] That's fun. Well, I'm glad you're able to come and shout out to Sunstone for all the great work that they do. All right, so we, we want to thank Nemo the Mormon for, for subbing for me for the past few weeks. I had family medical stuff that I had to attend to, and so we'll have Nemo on because he does such a great job. But I'm happy to be back, so thanks for carrying on without me. Meggan. We have several stories today. I've got, and I also have a. A kind of a fun special announcement. But why don't you, Meggan, go ahead and start with telling us a bit about what we're going to cover today on the Mormon News podcast and then I'll make my little special announcement. Go ahead.

Mormon News: Ken Jennings on Jeopardy!

Meggan Hayes [00:01:50] Well, of course we're going to talk about Elder Corbridge and the video, the little short video and the longer video that were put out this past week where he told people that they will stay in the church. So that's been buzzing around.

John Dehlin [00:02:04] That's been big news. Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:02:06] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] That's a big story.

Meggan Hayes [00:02:08] Yep. Everyone commenting on it. We're going to talk about what happened with clergy confidentiality in Arizona. It's a follow up to something that's been going on for a long time. Then we'll go to Jana Reese's article about how half of women have left the church, how the Mormon Church has a retention problem and it involves women. We'll talk about Ken Jennings, the host of Jeopardy. And his advocacy for trans folks and how that came into the spotlight this week. And then we'll have a little interest story about Word Perfect and a documentary that's coming out about that and how that's tied to Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] And some of our never Mormon listeners won't know that Ken Jennings is Mormon, or at least historically has been Mormon. So. And, and by the way, Ken Jennings has known about Mormon stories for 20 years, so I don't know that he's ever been a watcher or a listener. But what I do know is early on, I brought Ken Jennings into some conversations or some threads, and, you know, he presented as a faithful, committed Mormon. So I'm, I'm dying to know what he said about trans people and if he is still a faithful Mormon, how he reconciles that with his advocacy for transgender people, but also with the church's, I'd say, opposition to transgender people. So, anyway, this is the first time I've seen any of these slides, Meggan, So as always, I like to subtitle these episodes. Meggan explains the Week's Mormon News to John De Lin.

Meggan Hayes [00:03:47] And I love to see your reactions to the news that I have been swimming in all week.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] Yeah. So that's exciting. All right, so before we begin, I have a little bit of news, and it relates to my lawsuit. So as many of you may know, the Mormon Church a couple months ago decided to sue me and Mormon Stories Podcast. And so since then, we filed our response and a motion to dismiss. I still need to do an episode on Mormon Stories Podcast discussing our response to the Mormon Church's lawsuit against us and our motion to dismiss. But in the meantime, the. The news that I have is that the. The news that I have is that the two very important organizations filed what are called amicus briefs or friend of the court briefs in favor of Mormon Stories Podcast and me, the two organizations that filed their amicus briefs yesterday, Friday, August 7th, the two organizations were the ACLU or the American Civil Liberties Union, and the EFF. So just to kind of give a brief summary, and I plan to do an episode on this. You know what I, and our attorneys and our supporters have always believed is that this lawsuit of the LDS Church against Mormon Stories Podcast really has, in my opinion, nothing to do, really with trademark, nothing to do with copyright, nothing to do with intellectual property. What I believe, and have believed since November of last year is what the, what, what the Mormon Church, the LDS Church wants to do is sue us into oblivion to bankrupt me. And Mormon Stories Podcast and the Open Stories foundation. And then also they want to silence us. They want to. They're uncomfortable with our reach, with our effectiveness. And so what they want to do, in my opinion, is use trademark law and copyright law to both bankrupt us and silence us so that a major evaluator, critiquer of the LDS Church and its history and its practices gets silenced. And so for me, and I believe, for our attorneys and for all the, we've had at least 20, if not 30 attorneys across the world willing to volunteer and work on this lawsuit pro bono. In other words, for no charge, because they believe so strongly not only in what we do, but also they're so opposed to what the Mormon Church has been doing. What we've all believed is that this is a really a First Amendment freedom of speech lawsuit. But critics, the church itself has not wanted it to be framed that way. And then defenders of the church like Jasmine Rapee or, you know, Blake Osler and others have, have tried to argue that this has nothing to do with free speech. This has nothing to do with the First Amendment. This is purely, allegedly that we violated the church's trademark and copyrights law, you know, rights. And so we need to be held in account for that. Well, now the American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic Freedom foundation have both weighed in, they both filed amicus briefs. And, you know, these are two organizations that take the freedom of speech and the, and the US Constitution very seriously. They have, they have to guard and preserve their time very carefully. We've given them no money. You know, there's, there's nothing we've done to sway or motivate them to weigh in and in their own free will, in their own judgment. This lawsuit is important enough that they filed amicus briefs in our support stating that they believe that this lawsuit has very important implications for the freedom of speech, for the freedom to critique religions, for the freedom to critique and specifically the Mormon Church. And that the way that the court rules against, you know, or for this case is going to have very broad implications, not just for the broader Mormon community, for Mormon podcasts, for Mormon TV shows, for Mormon movies, for Mormon books, for Mormon discourse, that it also has implications for the broader freedoms to critique religion and to exercise free speech against religions. And I would just add against super wealthy hundreds, billions of dollar, you know, religions that would very much love to stifle and squelch free speech. So, Meggan, I don't know if you knew that that had happened yesterday, but we're breaking that news on our show today. Any thoughts or reactions?

Mormon Church vs. Mormon Stories Podcast: Two Important Organizations Have

The ACLU and the EFF Win the Corbridge Case

Meggan Hayes [00:09:12] I did not know that that happened. And that is amazing. That's amazing. And it's what I was hoping would happen is that when the news was getting out and these bigger news outlets were airing the story and talking about it, that those who really cared about free speech would see what was happening here and get involved. Because this is not just about you, John. Right. This has much broader implications for anyone who wants to talk about an experience they've had that is maybe not casting the best light on an institution that has behaved badly.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:09:52] Yeah. I just. Yeah, I think it's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:09:55] Yeah. Thank you. And I'm really excited to share what they. What. What both the ACLU and the EFF said in their amicus briefs in a. In a separate episode, as well as to give people an update on the lawsuit overall. So, anyway, that's my news. Let's jump back to all the good work that you did. What are we gonna. What should we cover first? Is it. Is it okay if we cover the Corbridge thing first?

Meggan Hayes [00:10:20] Absolutely.

Lawrence Corbridge: Will You Stay in the Church?

John Dehlin [00:10:22] All right.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] Background.

Meggan Hayes [00:10:24] Well, so Lawrence Corbridge, there is a whole slide about what his background is in the church. But. So, yeah, go to. Go to this first slide, because this is what happened this week. So we'll start here a little bit, and then we'll go back, and then we'll revisit this. So on Tuesday, Scripture Central posted a video that looks like this one here in the slide. It says, you will stay. And it has Elder Corbridge's face. This was just a short. And then by yesterday, today, they had changed what that slide looked like. So it says, will you stay? You know, much softer. And then here is a picture of Lawrence Corbridge. He is a lawyer, which we've come to expect from high church leadership to be lawyers. He's also been a missionary in the Argentina North Mission, 1968-1970. Elders Quorum President, Ward Mission Leader, Bishop High Counselor, Gospel Doctrine Sunday School teacher, Stake President of the Sandy, Utah Granite State Mission, President of the Chile Santiago North Mission, 2002-2005 General Authority 70 and got emeritus status in 2019. Counselor in the Chile Area Presidency, President of the Chile Area Church Headquarters assignments, and like I said, now an emeritus General authority. So he's got a really long list of credentials when it comes to Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, this reminds me of what happened a few years ago. It looks like more and more, the Church is trying to utilize these emeritus General authorities to be able to use their past authority to be apologists for the church. But because they've been released, then maybe the church isn't quite as responsible for the things they say because they're not currently serving as general authorities. Does that make sense?

Meggan Hayes [00:12:28] Absolutely. Well, and then the people who are listening to them, aren't really making that distinction. Right. This is someone who we saw over the pulpit in General Conference. So they still hold that level of authority with the general membership, even though they're emeritus. And the church can kind of have a little buffer between them and. And this emeritus general authority.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting that they're using this tactic. So that's a little bit of the background. What? Yeah, let's go to the next slide.

Meggan Hayes [00:13:01] So even more background. On January 22nd of 2019, Lawrence Corbridge gave a speech at BYU called Stand Forever. And that is the catalyst for everything that happened this week. It actually started back in 2019. So this is just a screen grab from BYU speeches showing him giving that talk and that it was in 2019. I believe the next slide is a little. Yes, the first. We're going to watch two clips from that talk just to get an idea of what it was about.

John Dehlin [00:13:33] This is his original talk.

Meggan Hayes [00:13:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:35] Okay. All right, let's roll the clip.

Speaker D [00:13:38] So how do we close that gap? How do we avoid deception? Begin by answering the primary questions. There are primary questions and there are secondary questions. Answer the primary questions first. Not all questions are equal and not all truths are equal. The primary questions are the most important. Everything else is subordinate. There are only a few primary questions. I'll mention four of them. Is there a God? Who is our Father? Is Jesus Christ the Son of God, the Savior of the world? Was Joseph Smith a prophet? Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the Kingdom of God on earth? By contrast, the secondary questions are unending. They include questions about church history, polygamy, people of African descent, women in the priesthood, how the Book of Mormon was translated, the pearl of great price, DNA in the Book of Mormon, gay marriage, the different accounts of the first vision, and on and on and on and on. If you answer the primary questions, the secondary questions get answered too, or they pale in significance. And you can deal with things you understand and things you don't understand, things you agree with and things you don't agree with without jumping ship altogether.

Marissa on Donald Trump's BYU Speech

John Dehlin [00:15:11] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:15:12] I've got so much. I'm thinking just off the bat, but I want to hear what. What your reactions are to that and why you shared it.

Meggan Hayes [00:15:19] That is the impetus of this whole thing, and that is a sum up of what this BYU speech was about, is that if as a member you have any concerns. Right. You don't think polygamy was the right thing to do. You have concern about black members who were not allowed to have the priesthood or temple, any of those things, those are just secondary. You don't really need to worry about them. Because if you can answer these other questions, there's a hierarchy, just like there is in the church. There's a, you know, with the prophet up here and the members down here, there's a hierarchy when it comes to. To issues with the church. And if you can answer those top four questions, then the other ones just take this place at the bottom. And I've actually seen this. When you did your interview with the brothers from the Stick of Joseph, they had this idea of, like the tree and the roots, same kind of thing where if God is God and if Joseph Smith was a prophet, then everything else, you can either put it on your shelf, you can set it aside, or you can work on answering it your whole life because you know those top ones are true.

John Dehlin [00:16:30] So, Meggan, what do you think about this framing that? I mean, I think he's kind of right in the sense that if there's no God, Mormonism doesn't matter. Mormonism's a fraud. If Jesus is not the son of God, if Jesus wasn't resurrected, didn't die for us, Mormonism is a fraud. If Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, Mormonism is a fraud. And if the Mormon Church today is in the kingdom of God, it's a fraud. So he's basically saying if those things aren't true, nothing else matters. What's wrong with that framing?

Meggan Hayes [00:17:08] Well, because he's starting with the assumption that those are true, he's not really giving people an option to say these things are true. That's not what he wants. What he wants is these things are true. And I'm telling you they're true. They're the four main things. Everything else down there that might upset you or cause you to doubt, those are the things you can wrestle with. But these top four things, they're not to be wrestled with, they just are.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] But just to push you on that a little bit, he's not wrong. Right. He's right that those are probably the most important questions.

Meggan Hayes [00:17:43] Well, I don't think that if God is real, that that means it's okay for black people to be denied the priesthood. I don't, I don't think. If you think God is real, then you can think that that's okay. I. I would think it's just the opposite, honestly. If God is real and he's running the Mormon Church, that actually makes me question whether that's a God that I would want to worship. If he's someone who would do that.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] Yeah. I guess what I'm hearing you say this is just a way to restate it.

Meggan Hayes [00:18:18] Sure is.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] That God and Jesus could be real and the Mormon Church still, still be false. So I guess we could write those first two points off as kind of irrelevant. They're deal killers. If they aren't, if God and Jesus don't. Don't exist, then yes, that's a deal killer to Mormonism, but God and Jesus could still exist and the Mormon Church be false. So in that sense, they're kind of red herrings. They're kind of red herrings. They're not most important. So let's throw the first two out and then it comes to the last two. If Joseph Smith's a prophet, if Joseph Smith isn't a prophet, none of the other thing details really matter. And if the church is the kingdom of God, if the church is not the kingdom of God on the earth, then none of the other things matter. What would you say to that?

Philip Corbridge on The Book of Mormon

Meggan Hayes [00:19:11] I think he puts all four of those together because he knows if he just puts Joseph Smith up there, that's the one that people are going to have the most problems with. So if you put Joseph Smith on the same plane as God, it's a lot harder to dismiss Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:19:25] Yeah. I'll tell you what I think he's trying to do here, Meggan. You tell me if you think I'm wrong. What I think he's trying to do, he's trying to pull what I would call like an epistemological maneuver. He's basically trying to say, pray about Mormonism. And if you get the feeling that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, that Joseph was a prophet, and that this is God's church on the earth, then you don't need to learn anything more about the details because once you've got the emotional or the spiritual witness that those four things are true. And I agree with you, I think he's trying to get you to believe the church is true in part based on your testimony of God and Jesus, he's basically saying don't worry about the details. If you feel like the Mormon Church is true, that God lives and that Jesus is the Christ. So it's a way of, it's kind of a bait and switch a little bit. It's a bit of an epistemological play. What do you think?

Meggan Hayes [00:20:29] Yeah, I think you're right. Because if the church, if you're, if you're in the church and it starts falling down around you, but you have this little bubble of but it's true, but it's true, but it's true. He wants you to ignore all of those things that are happening and stay in that little bubble.

John Dehlin [00:20:46] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [00:20:46] Of your, of your comfort, of your feelings, of the place where you feel safe. And yeah, you've prayed about it and you just, you just know and, and everything else can fall down. And that's okay.

John Dehlin [00:20:57] Yeah. I'll share a couple comments that are being made that really do illustrate what I think he's also doing. We love having Dan Bogle in the chat. Dan Vogel is a legendary historian on Joseph Smith. Please check out all his books. There's probably no living historian who's done more important original research on Joseph Smith than Dan Vogel. Dan Vogel writes the secondary questions are really the primary questions because they answer the so called primary questions. And that's exactly right. Dan Vogel. So how would you know if Joseph Smith were or weren't a prophet? How would you know if the Book of Mormon were or weren't true? How would you know if the Mormon Church leadership were or weren't being led by God? It's by studying Joseph Smith's first vision. It's by studying the Book of Mormon historicity. It's by studying systemic Mormon Church racism, both by Joseph and Brigham, but also by the modern church leadership. And, and so it's basically, it feels like a cult technique to do thought stopping. That's ultimately what I think Corbridge is doing here. He's doing thought stopping to try and get you to not look at the details. Because the details, the secondary questions are what determine the primary questions, or at least the third and the fourth primary questions that Corbridge is offering. I'll add a couple more comments. Julia writes the first vision is a secondary problem. In other words, Julia's saying the first vision is actually a primary question that helps determine questions three and four. I agree. Julia K? Hod? N writes, secondary questions are the fruits of the primary questions and by their fruits ye shall know them. That's a great way to, to frame it, code in. And then Ex Mormon Snark writes, it's just manipulating people into not looking into outside sources. If you have a testimony, you don't need to look into it. Great point. Ex Mormon snark. We love that you're here joining us as well. Okay, let's go ahead and go to the next slide. Is that all right? Do you want to set this up?

The Dark Voices of the Restoration

Speaker E [00:23:15] Anything else?

Meggan Hayes [00:23:16] This is just another clip from that same talk in 2019.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] Okay. All right, let's go ahead and play the clip.

Speaker D [00:23:24] So what was the gloom I felt several years ago while reading antagonistic material? Some would say that gloom is the product of belief bias, which is the propensity to pick and choose only those things that accord with our assumptions and belief. The thought that everything one has believed and taught may be wrong, particularly with nothing better to take its place, is a gloomy and disturbing thought indeed. But the gloom I experienced as I listened to the dark choir of voices raised against the prophet Joseph Smith and the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ, that gloom that came as I waded chest deep through the swamp of the secondary questions, is different. That gloom is not belief bias, and it is not the fear of being in air. It is the absence of the spirit of God and the spirit associated with the dark voices that assailed the prophet Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon and the restoration are not the spirit of light and truth. They are not the spirit of God. I don't know much, but I do know the voice of the Lord.

Protestant Talk on Belief Bias (19)

John Dehlin [00:24:57] Wow. All right, Meggan, I want to hear your reaction to that.

Meggan Hayes [00:25:00] Yeah. He starts out the talk saying that he had to wade through all this anti Mormon material, and this is how he explains it away, is that it caused him to lose the spirit when he was looking at that the spirit couldn't be in the room when he was looking at those materials. It. His discomfort is so overwhelming for him that he can't look at any other reason why he would be feeling uncomfortable. What he. He's having a hard time, I think, looking at it and thinking, well, this might be real and one of these primary things that I've set up might actually not be true. So he just pushes it away. He does thought stopping to himself. Right. This isn't. I don't feel uncomfortable right now because this might be true because Joseph Smith maybe wasn't who I think he is. I feel uncomfortable because, as the church tells me, the spirit of God has left, which means this material's not good. And I'm just going to go back to these primary questions.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] Yeah. My reaction is that it's interesting that he starts out addressing this idea of belief bias, or what I would say is confirmation bias. I like that he's invoking logical fallacies, but in my perception, he then goes on to commit it because he basically then tries to poison the well by associating critics or honest historians or truth tellers about the church. He tries to associate them with swamps and with Satan. He literally calls, you know, honest historians or Critics of the church or critics of the church's history, as you know, satanic dark voices, you know, you know, that's just trying to poison the well, in my opinion. And you know, the worst thing he does of all is that he basically says if you feel bad, if you're learning that Joseph Smith had sex with 14 year olds, if you're learning that, that Brigham Young was a racist and taught that the only way you can receive forgiveness is by having a javelin stabbed through your heart. And when I mean forgiveness, I mean forgiveness for a white man to have sex with a black woman. The only way you can receive forgiveness is to be stabbed with a javelin. If you read the. If you learn about Book of Mormon historicity and you realize that Joseph Smith plagiarized massive portions of the Book of Mormon and that there are anachronisms that deal death blows to the veracity of the Book of Mormon. If your reaction to that is to feel sad, to feel dark, to feel anger, to feel like maybe you've been lied to and misled for decades of your life and that you would have made very different choices with your life if you hadn't been misled and lied to, he's basically saying that those natural reactions of anger or sadness or disappointment, they're not just natural, healthy emotions that are basically saying you've been lied to, you've been deceived. You should grieve and mourn the deception that's been perpetrated upon you knowingly and intentionally by Mormon church leaders. No, no, no, you should just dismiss all that as Satan, as the emotions of the adversary. Stop thinking about the church truth. You know the truth, church's truth claims. Start learning. Stop learning about the actual history and the actual truth about your church's history and then go back into la la land. Go back into the Truman show, go back into the Matrix, go back into the Garden of Eden and put a smile on your face and just believe those initial manipulated emotions that everything is happy in the Garden of Eden, that everything is happy in the Truman show, that everything is happy in the Matrix because you should only have positive emotions. And those positive emotions are always the church is true. Joseph Smith was a true prophet. The brethren would never lead you astray. And I just think he's being deceptive about what emotions really mean and how we can and should use our emotions to guide our behavior. He wants us to ignore feelings of sadness and anger and frustration that are leading us towards the truth and stick with the sticky, sweet, manipulated, misleading emotions that everything is Happy and that the church would never lie to us or hurt us.

Meggan Hayes [00:30:00] Well, and remember what audience he this is at BYU in 2019. So his original audience was a group of mostly young people, you know, 20s, who are looking at this emeritus general authority. I'm not sure whether or not he was emeritus on this day, he gave this or not. Someone in a position of authority, and he is telling them what their feelings are.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] Yeah. And I'll just add, he ends with this sort of like, I know the voice of the Lord trick where he's basically saying, I'm a general authority and, you know, in my association with the apostles, Mormon apostles, we're collective prophets, seers and revelators, special witnesses of Christ. And he's basically saying, you know, you don't get to talk to Christ, you don't get to talk to God. You just have your confusing emotions that you have to make difficult decisions on. So trust us. Trust us as the church's leaders, because we talk to God, we talk to Jesus. We're special witnesses of the Lord. And he's basically saying, I know the voice of the Lord, because God wouldn't talk to you, little person, little woman, little mom, little, you know, missionary. God would never talk to you. Jesus would never communicate to you. Don't trust your feelings. Don't trust your interpretations of what's right or even your interpretations of the Holy Ghost or the Spirit. Throw all that away. And instead trust us as your Mormon leaders, because God won't communicate with you, and certainly you can't trust your feelings. Trust us and what we have to say. And I think that's also manipulative and abusive because if anything, if we know anything for sure, it's that we can't trust Mormon prophets, seers and revelators to tell us the truth because for two centuries they've lied to us and they've knowingly deceived us about the church's history and truth claims. You know, that's just a fact. And I'll put my record. As flawed as I am as a podcaster, as a truth teller, I don't think I'm perfect. I'll put Mormon stories record any day up against the Mormon Church's telling of history and truth claims. And as flawed as I am as a moral individual, I'll put my moral record any day up against Joseph Smith's. And as flawed as I am and as flawed as Mormon stories are, I'll take that test any day of the week. Really quickly, a couple other comments that I really love. Dan Vogel says the gloom. Those gloomy emotions that you're feeling. That gloom was the truth. Jazz Jazzy writes, Yes, a thought stopping tactic for sure. I agree. Daisy May writes, or the realization that what he formerly thought was not true. Basically he's saying that when you feel gloom, learning church history or learning about the church's abuse, maybe when you feel gloom, it's just that disappointment and anger and frustration that what you thought was true, that what the church leaders manipulated you to believe was true was false. And of course you're going to feel sadness and anger in response to that realization. Julia writes, the gloom is Satan. It's definitely not the fact that my entire worldview could be wrong. And I would add that I was deceived by the church. That's sarcasm on Julia's part. Dan Bogle tells us what mental health professionals will tell you all day long if they're competent and ethical. And that's that the truth doesn't always feel good. Thank you. Dan Vogel. We love that you're in the show. And then the Saintelius writes, learning that your spouse is cheating on you will give you bad feelings, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. And I would add, that doesn't mean it's Satan either. All right, Julia, I'm sorry. All right, Meggan, you've already got me ranting back to you. What, what's the next slide?

Dan Vogel on The Feelings of Distress

The Stand Forever: A Documentary Series

Meggan Hayes [00:34:28] All right, so because Scripture Central loved that initial video so much, they they decided to do an entire series revolving around the ideas presented in that video and they call it the Stand Forever Series. This says the Stand Forever series is a cinematic presentation of a Christ centered book written by Elder Lawrence E. Corbridge, Emeritus General Authority 70. They have to throw that in there. A book that may never be published. The book and now this series share the same title as a BYU devotional address given by Elder Corbridge in 2019, the elements of which are critical pieces to a larger puzzle. The Stand Forever series is the larger puzzle revealing why we believe and follow Christ to the end, engaged in his work and help others do the same. So that's why I wanted to show that initial video in 2019 because this series that everyone has seen a minute and a half of this week, or however long that short was, it stemmed from this video in 2019 that I think a lot of people who saw the video this week weren't even aware of. But Scripture Central just loved that 2019 video and they wanted to just keep going with it.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] And what I want people to understand as well, having been doing this work for 20 to 30 years, depending on how you count, is that nowadays, you know, after, like Gordon B. Hinckley was embarrassed on Larry King Live, after, you know, Jeffrey R. Holland was embarrassed by the BBC. Now that Mormon church leaders have learned that with the Internet, they can't do interviews anymore, they can't speak publicly, and that if they try to address Mormon Church truth claims, they're going to be embarrassed and look stupid and lose. They've stopped granting meaningful interviews and they've stopped responding to these truth claims because they know that if they talk about these things in general conference to the press publicly, they're just going to, number one, advertise the problems with the church to the faithful membership, but also to look stupid. So what they do is what they've done for decades. They, they encourage and promote these third party nonprofit organizations like Scripture Central, like, you know, the Book of Mormon foundation, you could probably name some of these, like Fair Mormon. They encourage wealthy people to donate to these nonprofits. These nonprofits can be, you know, disassociated from like, oh, these are Arms Lake nonprofits. These aren't official utterances of prophets or revelators. That way if someone says something stupid or indefensible or insensitive, the church feels like it can't be blamed for it. But at the same time, they can have their wealthy members channel money to, to these nonprofits so that the nonprofits can then try to defend the church using official, unofficial voices. And the fact that Corbridge is now directly cooperating with Scripture Central is all you need to know as to whether or not the church endorses Scripture Central. The church absolutely endorses Scripture Central or Corbridge would never be participating in it. So I think it's fair to consider Scripture Central a formal official voice or arm of the Mormon Church. They're just using, you know, the legal system and the nonprofit structure to be able to have plausible deniability. What do you think, Meggan? Do you think that's true or not?

Meggan Hayes [00:38:24] Yeah, I agree. The entity that Jasmine Rapoli is part of now, she was working with Scripture Central and then she went to a different one and I'm not remembering the name. Maybe someone can put it in the comments, but on their website it specifically says in their about section, the Church has asked us to include the word Mormon in our videos so that Mormon can be higher in the SEO than ex Mormon creators are making it. Like it says that on their site. The Church has asked us, and I think it's just another Indicator that the church wants this separation. But they are absolutely involved in these organizations through the nonprofit structure to get their message out without having it come straight from Dallin H. Oaks or the other apostles.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] Yeah, and that's kind of ironic because we've never claimed to be run by the church, and we've done everything we could to include disclaimers from the beginning that we're not the church. And the church, you know, is basically trying to frame us as being deceptive when in reality, all these organizations that the church is propping up and making sure money gets channeled to, they're trying to claim that they're not officially sponsored by the church when. When we all know they kind of really are. So, anyway. All right, what's the next clip?

The End of Corbridge's Interview

Meggan Hayes [00:39:49] Let's see. So I believe this next one, I

John Dehlin [00:39:52] think it's Corbridge's actual video. Is that possible?

Meggan Hayes [00:39:57] Is the. Oh, yeah. So this. Okay, so for this series, they. I think they're, you know, 15 or so episodes in, but they had a trailer that they made. I mean, this is no small feat. They have spent a lot of time and money on this. And this is the trailer that precedes this series. It might sound a tiny bit funky because I removed the music, but I didn't alter it other than that I took the music out. But let's watch the trailer.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] All right, let's watch the trailer.

Will You Stand Forever or Will You Go Away?

John Dehlin [00:40:30] Will you stand forever or will you go away? And if you go, where will you go? When we stand back, the big picture looks like this. The essential problem in life is separation from God. Our Father. Jesus Christ bridges the gap. If we will believe and follow him to the end and help others do the same, the big picture is a big deal. I fear it may be misperceived as self promotion. Heaven knows I would have prefer to simply publish my book and go fishing. If it helps someone to that end, it will be reward enough. I served for several years as a general authority 70 for the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Reading those requests almost every day for several years revealed a broad panorama of human drama. Heartache, conflict, redemption, truth and triumph. Which are not theory or someone's ideas, rather the actual lived experiences of thousands of people revealing what works and what does not. People say, life is a journey. Enjoy the journey. It doesn't matter how far you go if you don't get to the end. The journey is also fraught with opposition, deception, disillusion, mists of darkness, peril, suffering, loss, betrayal. Jesus turns to the 12 and asks, Will you also go away. Will you stand forever or will you go away? And if you go, where will you go? This is not a random collection of religious musings, rather a carefully orchestrated series that leads to a particular conclusion. I invite you to join me on this journey and stand forever.

The Book of Mormon Movie Trailer

John Dehlin [00:42:31] All right, Meggan, what do you. What are your thoughts on that?

Meggan Hayes [00:42:34] I. I mean, it. It felt a little bit more spirit invoking with the music, but it's just so odd to me.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] Music for. For copyright reasons.

Meggan Hayes [00:42:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [00:42:46] Yeah, yeah. If you ever have music on there, then the platforms get really upset. But it. It just felt just very wild to me that they needed to set up, like a movie trailer like this. If he wrote a book like he said, he could have just published the book. But Scripture Central has taken hold of this. They do this movie trailer and they're invoking all of this emotion and getting people really excited so that he can tell us what he's already said in that 2019 talk, what he's already written in a book. Again, to just say, you just need to stay in the church.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] I'll just say two things about that. One, this feels highly manipulative, and, you know, it just feels like he's trying to use fancy words and charm and charisma to scare and manipulate vulnerable, you know, impressionable Mormons who have questions. The other. The second thing I would have to say is, why does Jesus Christ need a slick, rich, rich lawyer to argue his case? Like, if this. If the Mormon church were the one true church, would he need a slick, rich lawyer to plead the case? Wouldn't the lived experience of being a Mormon? Wouldn't the doctrine and the theology and the history of the one true church speak for itself to make people want to follow or not? Why would they need a slick, rich lawyer to argue the case? I'm just curious about that.

Meggan Hayes [00:44:16] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They. People are struggling, and they know that they're struggling. And so they're putting a lot of time and effort into this emeritus general authority to tell them, just don't look at that stuff. Just please stay. He's almost. He's almost begging at some points with his level of emotion.

John Dehlin [00:44:38] I have to believe on some level all these people are sincere, that they really love the church and really are sad to see people. People leaving and really don't. You don't want people to leave and think the world would be better if more people were Mormon. It does feel manipulative with the voice cracking and the emotion stuff, but also with the highly produced, like, look at the production values there, the cameras, the lighting, the multiple angles. These nonprofits like Scripture Central and Book of Mormon Central and all the others, Jasmine's thing, we're talking tens of millions of dollars annually invested in these nonprofits. And you know, I get it, they're trying to respond to Alyssa Grenfell and Mormon stories and, and you and all the other people out there who are really making a dent. But let's just not forget this is a hundreds of billions of dollar organization using tens of millions of dollars and marketing budgets, in my opinion, to, to manipulate people because they're not actually talking about the evidence. They're not actually talking about the history or the truth claims. They're just trying to emotionally manipulate people, in my opinion.

Meggan Hayes [00:45:49] Yeah. Yes. He, he says there's all this hardship and there's all these questions, and then he doesn't address any of them.

John Dehlin [00:45:55] Yeah, yeah. And. But what we're trying to do is address them. Right? Talk about the news, talk about the history, talk about the truth. But they don't want to go there. All right, what's the next slide?

What Do I Know That I Don't About The Church?

Speaker D [00:46:07] So this.

Meggan Hayes [00:46:07] Now we are to the point where this is the video, the full length video. This is a screenshot of it that came out called stand forever, episode 26. Okay, so they're on episode 26. I couldn't remember what episode it was. It's called the Truth Endure to The End, Part 2. Elder Lawrence E. Corbridge and the. Let me see if I can find this. The description for this video says when someone leaves the church, especially when many leave, people wonder, what do they know that I don't? A better question to ask. This is reminding me of Brad Wilcox's. You know, you're not asking the right question. A better question to ask is, what do I know that they don't? Some claim church culture is driving people away, that members feel unseen, disconnected, empty, unheard, unnourished and unfulfilled by their involvement. And the solution, they say, is a transformation to a more open, inclusive, transparent, loving and tolerant culture wherein more people can comfortably gather. That's the first half of that. And I actually think that would be great. I mean, I don't know what you think, John, but a more tolerant culture wherein more people can comfortably gather, I think would be amazing.

This is an Attack on Jeff Strong's Book Torn

John Dehlin [00:47:17] Well, I'm guessing you're going to be talking about this, but let's just hit it now.

John Dehlin [00:47:21] What?

John Dehlin [00:47:22] Immediately, people were interpreting this video as a direct attack on Jeff Strong's book Tornado. We've talked about Jeff Strong here on the Mormon News podcast multiple times now. Jeff Strong is this amazing former mission president, former consultant to members of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles, personal friends with at least one or two members of the Quorum of the twelve. Jeff Strong's come out with this book called Torn, where he gives an uncorrelated, candid, you know, analysis of how many people are leaving the Mormon Church in the United States. And the answer is, according to Jeff Strong, over a million Mormons who were raised Mormon in the United States over the past 25 years have left the church. A million. And, you know, There are only 4 to 5 million active Mormons in the world, you know, even though the church claims 17 million. And so if a million have left and there's only 4 million remaining in the world and a million have left in the United States, that just shows you. If you just assume that half of those are in the United States. So 2 million remain in the United States and a million have left. So it's gone from 3 million to 2 million just in the past 25 years. Think about what that means. So Jeff Strong is. Has put forward his best analysis for why culture is harming the church and how bad the problem is. And it sounds like, just like the king doesn't like being told he has no clothes on, the church doesn't like being told how bad the problem is and why people are leaving by Jeff Strong in the book Torn, and. And so instead they're asking Corbridge to do their dirty work, to attack Jeff Strong, to attack the book Torn and to basically say, it's not the culture, it's. It's, you know, whether the church is true or not. These are not the droids you're looking for. That's kind of what I think is going on here. This is an attack on Jeff Strong in his book Torn.

Meggan Hayes [00:49:40] Absolutely, yes. Because the. Yeah, I mean, that's how he starts out. And then he goes on to. To say, this is going to lead right into it. The ultimate question is not do I fit in, feel loved, accepted and comfortable? Which is what Jeff Strong was emphasizing. The ultimate question is, is the church true? None of this is to say we should stand idly by as people walk out the door with broken and lonely hearts thinking, there is no place for me here. But belief trumps doubt. If you view the church from the institutional perspective, then the arguments for leaving make sense. If you view it from the Kingdom of God perspective, they fall apart. From the institutional point of view, reason would suggest leaving or stepping back. If, as an institution, it does not meet your criteria, your expectations and your judgment of what the church should be. But if you see the church as the kingdom of God on earth, with sole authority to administer the ordinances of salvation to God's children on both sides of the veil, endow them with power to engage in his work, and thereby bring them back to him, then you will stay, come what may.

John Dehlin [00:50:43] K so what are your thoughts, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [00:50:46] I mean, that's the description they give for this video. It's about an hour ish long. And then the clips that everyone saw this week came. This is what they came from. But I think you're exactly right. He the church in general did not appreciate that Jeff Strong said there was a problem. I mean, they know people are leaving. They just didn't want it pointed out in a way that said maybe we could do something to fix this. So Corbridge is coming in and saying we don't need to fix anything because the church is true no matter what happens.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And by the way, if he was a member of the first quorum of the 70, which I'm assuming he was, he is still on the church's payroll because as I understand it, emeritus general authority 70s who were in the first quorum of the 70 get pensions. So unless I'm mistaken, Corbett is still on the Church's payroll. Now, if I'm wrong, I would love to be corrected, but my understanding is once you're a general 4070, you you get a full retirement with the church. Now, he may be so wealthy from being, you know, a lawyer in Utah that that he doesn't need the church's pension and and retirement benefits, but I just think we need to understand that these emeritus general authorities, in my understanding, are still on the Church's payroll. All right, Meggan, what's the next clip?

Mormon Church's lawsuit against ''

Meggan Hayes [00:52:14] All right, so now we are finally

John Dehlin [00:52:16] we have a quick comment I want to read.

John Dehlin [00:52:18] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:52:19] Somebody donated via super chat and we always appreciate when people are willing to Support us financially. Desire D6538 writes Church's lawsuit against Mormon stories was the last straw that broke the camel's back. I started the process in May and finally got my confirmation of my resignation yesterday. Thank you. Desire D Desired. I'll just add, I've seen hundreds and hundreds of Latter Day Saints say that the Mormon Church's lawsuit against us was where they first learned about us, but also the first major crack in their shelves and ultimately what led to them not only losing their faith in the Mormon Church, but also resigning their membership. So in that sense, I think the Mormon, the LDS Church has only shot itself in the foot, stabbed itself in the eye by suing us because it just makes them look weak, it makes them look abusive, it makes them look afraid. And ultimately it causes. It advertises us more. It elicits the backfire effect and the Barbara Streisand effect, and it leads faithful Mormons to want to lead the church. So I recommend the church drop its lawsuit. And I'm a little biased there, but anyway, thank you for the super chat. We really appreciate that. Okay, go ahead, Meggan. Sorry I interrupted you.

Meggan Hayes [00:53:45] Yeah, no problem. That was really important. The next video is the video clip that everyone saw. And this one I actually screen recorded before they changed it. So this is. This one says you can't see it very well at the bottom, but it says you will stay because that was the original title description of the video.

The 2019 BYU Talk to the Scripture Central

John Dehlin [00:54:04] Was this the short. The one minute short?

Meggan Hayes [00:54:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:07] Of the longer one hour interview.

Meggan Hayes [00:54:10] Yeah. So we've gone from the 2019 BYU talk to the Scripture Central series video to the short.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] Okay. All right, this is the big one. Let's roll it.

What is driving people away from the Church?

John Dehlin [00:54:22] Darth Vader could be your bishop. The culture could be like Alcatraz, and it will not drive you away. Some claim church culture is driving people away. That members feel unseen, disconnected, empty. And the solution, they say, is a transformation to a more open, inclusive, transparent, loving and tolerant culture wherein more people can comfortably gather. The ultimate question is not do I fit in? The ultimate question is, is the church true? None of this is to say we should stand idly by as people walk out the door with broken and lonely hearts thinking, there's no place for me here. I don't believe long here, but belief trumps discomfort. If you, from the institutional perspective, then those arguments for leaving make sense. If you see the church as the kingdom of God on earth, then. Then you will stay, come what may. Darth Vader could be your bishop. The culture could be like Alcatraz.

Jeff Strong on The Scriptural Central Video

John Dehlin [00:55:43] All right, Meggan, want to hear your reactions to that video first?

Meggan Hayes [00:55:48] The first thing that came up to me because I've heard it so many times, possibly was he mocks people, in a sense, who want who he says want the church to be comfortable for everyone. Which, honestly, I don't. I wouldn't see that as my goal. I don't even think it was Jeff Strong's goal. I think what Jeff wants and what a lot of people want in the church is safety. Because there is a difference between safety and comfort. If I can go to church and know that I'm not going to be harmed emotionally or physically, then I can sit in things that make me uncomfortable and I can learn and I can grow. But if Darth Vader is my bishop and the church is a prison cell like Alcatraz, I'm not safe. I'm not only uncomfortable, I'm also not safe. And if I'm not safe, I'm not going to learn. I'm not going to grow. I can't sit in my discomfort and learn to process it.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] Well said. Well said, Meggan. Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and do something I wouldn't normally do, but I think it's more efficient. I immediately wrote a substack post about this and I'm just going to read it. The substack.

Speaker D [00:57:02] This is.

John Dehlin [00:57:02] So I have a substack. John Dehlin, Dr. John De Lynn. I think it's called Understanding Mormonism. And I'll just read it. So it's titled Does Mormon Belief Trump Church Culture Discomfort? Should Non Literal Believers Leave? And I'll just read it. So what are your honest reactions to the Scriptural Central video shot from emeritus LDS general authority and attorney Lawrence E. Corbridge? And then we just watched the video. And then I write, of course, I can see the perspective that this video is super culty. So I do think this video is super culty. I'll just say it. When he's like saying, you know, it will not drive you away. You will not leave. What that reminds me of is literally Star Wars. You know, these are not the droids you're looking for. You know, it's, it's suggestive, it's manipulative. And I'm not saying he's intending to do that, but that's how it comes across to me. And so in that sense, it's culty. He's basically, they're not, they weren't asking, you know, will you stay? They weren't saying, you know, think about whether or not it makes sense for you to stay. And they said it in the title. They said, you will stay or you will not leave. And there's more to that than just sharing an opinion or perspective. But I'll go on. Aside from being culty, I write Darth Vader and Alcatraz. Really? And then I write what if attending the LDS Church makes you want to die? Elder Corbridge, then what? And of course, I'm old enough to know that 10, 15 years ago, the suicide rate amongst LGBT Mormons in the wake of Proposition 8 and the LDS Church's war on gay people and same sex marriage tripled. As I understand it, the suicide rate of LGBT youth, young adults and adults. I'm old enough to remember that that it's not just a matter of comfort for many people, it's a matter of life and death. And so I'll ask it again. What if attending the church makes you want to die? What if you're a Mormon woman who feels devalued and oppressed in the church? What if you know the church is no longer true and you're hearing members lie or deceive others about false or incorrect church history? What if you're transgender? There are all sorts of scenarios. What if you're black or Native American and you find the church's scriptures to be white supremacist? Right. So it's not just a matter of discomfort. What if you find the Mormon church experience offensive and psychologically harmful, causing you depression and anxiety? Those are the fair questions. Not just like, oh, does it make you a little uncomfortable? But I continue. But I also think that Elder Corbidge's core argument is logically consistent and fairly accurate. If it's all true, then you stay no matter what. I think that's true. If this is literally God's church and Jesus's church, then yeah, I think you stay no matter what. I think that's fair. Former Gordon B. Hinckley clearly agreed with Corbridge. And let me just play what Gordon B. Hinckley himself said.

What If Attending the Mormon Church Makes You Want to Die?

John Dehlin [01:00:55] Each of us has to face the matter. Either the church is true or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the church and kingdom of God or it is nothing.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] I mean, in some sense I think Kinkley's right. And in some sense, I think Corbridge is right. Ultimately, it really does matter if the Mormon Church is true. And that's why I started Mormon Stories podcast. Like, when I'm on my mission, my BYU roommate Montematter is killed on his mission in Puerto Rico. And while I'm in my mission in Guatemala, one of my former zone leader companions, Daniel Bartholomew, dies on Lake Atilon as he's trying to go get birth certificates for a baptism. So I realized then, is the Mormon Church true? Because if it isn't, Monty and Brian died in vain. But if it is, they died as martyrs. So, you know, that set me on the course of wondering, is this church really true or not? And that's why I started Mormon Stories podcast. That's why we do LDS discussions series. That's why we talk about Joseph Smith and the John Turner series on Joseph Smith. Was Joseph Smith the prophet or was he a sexual predator and a fraud? Do the Mormon Church truth claims stand up to scrutiny? Or is the Book of Mormon in the 19th century document, is the Book of Abraham a fraud? And you know, is the church a cult? That's what Mormon stories is all about. And I think you're going to get closer to coming to a factual, truthful answer by watching Mormon stories than you ever will by listening to Elder Corbridge or Scripture Central, let alone Jasmine Rapely or Mormon General Conference. So I do love that Corbridge and Hinckley, you know, say that this matters and that it's true or false fraud or God's one true church on the earth. What do you think about that dichotomy, Meggan? Do you think that's a false dichotomy or a true dichotomy?

Meggan Hayes [01:03:10] I think it can be true because of the level of, like, everything that the church asks people to do. They don't just ask you to show up at church. Right. When, when I went to the temple, I pledged everything that I have, my time, talents, all of my money to the church. This is not a small commitment. And if I'm going to give all of that, even my life if necessary, then it sure as hell better be true. So it. I think the dichotomy works because of the level of commitment. That's the word I was looking for, that the church not only asks, but demands. Okay. If you don't pay a 10 tithe, you don't go to heaven. You lose your family. You can't show up at your child's wedding and watch them be sealed in the temple. They don't, they don't ask for you to come twice a year. And you can still be counted as a member. If you are on the records and you're showing up and then you miss a Sunday or two, they have an app that tracks that. They have people showing up at your door. Your kids are getting candy bars in the mail saying, come back to church. This is not a. I live my life and the church is part of my life. It's. I go to church and my life is secondary to the things I have committed to the church.

John Dehlin [01:04:27] Yeah, absolutely. But also, you know, do you, do you agree that either the Book of Mormon's a fraud or it's true? Like, it's only one of those two things, right?

The Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham: A Fraud or

Meggan Hayes [01:04:38] Yes. Because that is what they have claimed. If they had claimed since the beginning that it's just a great Book, that'd be one thing. But they've not said that. They've said it is a historical record. I mean, I have 1970 copy of the Book of Mormon sitting on my desk right now, and it says a whole lot of different things than the current one does.

John Dehlin [01:04:56] Yeah. And mostly, either there's an angel Moroni that delivered gold plates to Joseph Smith, or there wasn't. And if there wasn't, then Joseph made it up, lied about it, or was delusional. But either way, the Book of Mormon is either an ancient record of Native Americans, white Native Americans, largely, or it's. Or it's a 19th century fabrication of Joseph Smith and incorporating contemporary 19th century sources. That's just. And if Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, he can't be a true prophet, right? Can Joseph Smith be a true prophet if the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are frauds, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [01:05:38] Not. Not in the way the LDS Church defines a prophet. If somebody knows all of that and they still want to go and believe it, that's fine. Yeah, that's fine. I mean, people, you know, will take a rose quartz and put it in their window under the full moon and feel like power goes in there and they use it to better their life. They're not harming anyone. That's fine. But setting it up as Joseph Smith saw God in Jesus, the Book of Mormon is a real ancient record that came from gold plates. That's totally different. They want people to believe something, that they have evidence that it's not true, but they're presenting it as true.

John Dehlin [01:06:16] Yeah. And they've excommunicated the truth tellers that talk about Book of Mormon historicity and talk about Book of Abraham historicity and talk about feminism and talk about post manifesto polygamy and the peep Sears and the peep stones and the treasure digging, the church and the DNA evidence showing that Lamanites or Native Americans trace their ancestry to Asia, not, you know, Palestine. Like, the church has done everything they could to excommunicate silence and demeanor, truth tellers and factual historians and activists. They've excommunicated Sam Young for advocating against, you know, pedophilia and the protection of child abusers in the church. They've excommunicated Natasha Heler for advocating for healthy mental health principles. They've excommunicated me and Jeremy Runnels and Bill Reel and others for talking about factual church history. And so they're doing everything they can to beat down and fight and silence the truth Tellers and to discourage members from learning the truth. And I again, I'm going to say it's my belief that this lawsuit against me is just another example of the church trying to silence its critics and hide the truth from its membership. All right, I'm going to read a few comments because we have a few super chats here. Mount A 2000 writes, I'm completely appalled by this talk. Completely offensive and dismissive is the real experiences and trauma others and myself went through within the church. I'm so upset by this. Thank you for sharing and for the super chat donation. Mt 2000 Monica, Marilyn, thank you for the super chat. She writes. Keep up the good work. John and Meggan, thank you. Regards from Draper, Utah. Thank you, Monica. Thanks for your support. We also got another super chat from Evan Hill. His father was the dean of the business school at byu, if I'm remembering right. Hey Evan, thanks for your donation. And then Ry, the guy 6914 writes, how can a church be true but not be truthful? It's true or it isn't. But if you're going to say it's true, then there's no reason to hide or cover up anything, historical or otherwise. That's a really good point. I think it was a high level church leader who once said, if we have the truth, there is nothing. If we have the truth, we cannot be harmed. If we have not the truth, we should be harmed. Isn't that a great quote?

Evan Hill's Super Chat

Meggan Hayes [01:09:06] Yes, fantastic. It's, it's a bummer that they don't really abide by that.

John Dehlin [01:09:11] Yeah. Yeah. All right, well let's go ahead and go to the next clip. Meggan, what do you got next?

This is the Message From The Creator of This Clip

Meggan Hayes [01:09:20] So this is a video we're gonna. Yeah. From sky, who is the one that actually put together and produced this clip. And then all of this backlash came out of people saying this is so dismissive. And so sky wanted to set the record straight. So this we're going to watch a clip of him and then a clip from Corbridge's long form video just a couple of different times to see if they match up what sky is saying and what Corbridge actually said in his long video.

John Dehlin [01:09:49] And I just want to say there was massive backlash to this short. I responded to it on Facebook and on Instagram and on YouTube and on Substack. And then not only did you know ex Mormon Reddit share outrage, not only did you know Mormonish and Mormonism Live and Bill Real and Rebecca and you and all the other creators express their concern about this Clip. But the Faithful Mormon apologetic YouTube channels also weighed in and as I understand it, Ward radio said that this, this video was harmful. Did you get that impression?

Meggan Hayes [01:10:34] Yeah. Oh yeah. The backlash was from both sides. If we're saying their sides, it was from everybody.

John Dehlin [01:10:40] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker E [01:10:42] So.

John Dehlin [01:10:42] So then tell me if I'm wrong. Instead of Corbridge or, or better the active Mormon church leadership, because they're ultimately behind all this. Instead of the real people respons content, instead of them coming out and apologizing, somehow it falls on the editor, the video editor, to be the one who comes out with the apology. It's. It almost reminds me of John D. Lee taking the fall for the Mountain Meadows Massacre and not, you know, Brigham Young or other church leaders or the other leaders of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Of course the church is going to let the little guy take the fall. Is that so that, is that what this.

Meggan Hayes [01:11:32] Is?

John Dehlin [01:11:32] This next clip? It's basically the little guy, the video editor, taking responsibility for Corbridge's garbage and for the, the Mormon Church's garbage.

Meggan Hayes [01:11:45] Yes. Yeah. He's trying to give an apologist response to you only saw one minute. And that's my fault because I'm the one that edited it. So. But we'll see how his response lines up with the long form video.

John Dehlin [01:11:59] I just want to note that how cowardly it is for it not being the top Mormon church leadership to be on the record themselves, first of all. But then they support Scripture central and Book of Mormon central. And then if anyone, if it's not the church leaders that should take responsible, it's Corbridge, not, not the video editor. I think that's cowardly. All right, let's.

Meggan Hayes [01:12:22] Yeah. Wait, John, one thing. So the St. Elia said what editor's fault, just like the rogue artists. So it's the same ideas like we, we all thought Joseph Smith translated the plates by looking at them or maybe with the Urim and Thummim. And we got that idea because that's how artists portrayed it. That's really not what happened and not what the Church wanted us to believe. They knew about the rock and the hat. But those, those artists, they chose to

John Dehlin [01:12:47] depict the translation process inaccurately. It has nothing to do with the fact that the Church hid the evidence, excommunicated the truth tellers, and advanced a false narrative about Book of Mormon translation for 200 years. It was the artist that chose to inaccurately depict the Book of Mormon translation. Is that what you mean?

Meggan Hayes [01:13:05] Yeah, yeah. This, this is the same sky was the artist who produced this clip, and now he's in big trouble.

John Dehlin [01:13:11] All right, let's roll it. Let's roll the camera.

Speaker F [01:13:14] So I personally edited the video that's getting a lot of pushback right now, and there are a few things that I wish I would have done differently. But I also do think that many people are criticizing a message that Eldercore Bridge never actually gave. And I'm speaking only as the editor and producer who made the trailer. With that out of the way, let's start with the Darth Vader analogy. I do think that some people are taking an intentionally exaggerated comparison far more literally than it was meant to be taken. I don't think the point was that abusive leadership or unhealthy culture or painful experiences at church don't matter. I think the point was that the strongest foundation for a testimony is understanding what the church ultimately is, which is the kingdom of God on earth. When you have that conviction firmly in place, the imperfections of individual members and leaders don't get to redefine the entire church for you. Not even in his deliberately exaggerated analogy, when you have Darth Vader as your bishop.

Corbridge on the Darth Vader

John Dehlin [01:14:15] All right, Meggan, what do you think?

Meggan Hayes [01:14:18] I think that's as dismissive as the original video. I see what he's trying to say, and I see what he's trying to do. And honestly, clipping a hour long video into one one minute clip, it's difficult. It's difficult to sum up an entire video in a very short amount of time and the time constraints that these platforms give. However, if we want, let's watch the next Corbridge clip because sky is saying you just didn't see the whole thing. But I watched the whole thing multiple times, and I don't think it made it better. Yeah, I don't think that it made the Darth Vader clip less horrific. Watching it in an hour long video versus the one minute clip.

John Dehlin [01:15:02] Right? Yeah. No, I think he's just taking the fall. And. And. And he's also blaming, you know, other people, you know, saying it was taken out of context, saying that, you know, we didn't understand the full context. It's just kind of. Yeah, I think it misses the mark. All right, should we play it?

Meggan Hayes [01:15:20] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:15:22] If you don't like food at a restaurant, what? You don't go back if you don't like the church or some aspect of it. You don't go back if you view it from the institutional point of view. But if you see. Listen to this. If you see the church as the kingdom of God, on earth with sole authority to administer the ordinances of salvation to God's children on both sides of the veil, endow them with power to engage in his work, and thereby bring them back to him.

Speaker E [01:15:59] Then.

John Dehlin [01:16:00] Then you will stay, come what may. I. I may have said this before, but Darth Vader could be your bishop. The culture could be like Alcatraz, and it will not drive you away.

Stay in the Church: Darth Vader

John Dehlin [01:16:19] All right, Meggan, what are your thoughts?

Meggan Hayes [01:16:21] I. I don't think listening to a longer portion of the video makes it sound better, because Corbridge is saying all of these things can happen in the church, not just discomfort. Your safety can be threatened. Because are we. Are we realizing what Darth Vader did in the movies? Maybe not, but everybody knows this. But if he put his hand. Hand up, across the room from someone, they would suffocate. You know, he would choke them until they died. And Corbridge says if Darth Vader is your bishop, it doesn't matter if your safety is threatened, it doesn't matter because the church is true. So you just die. And that's okay. That is really what he is actually saying.

John Dehlin [01:17:06] And interestingly, the church doesn't. The church leaders don't physically kill people like Darth Vader, but they spiritually and psychologically and socially do kill people. When you excommunicate, you know, me or Natasha Helfer or Sam Young or Bill Real or Jeremy Runnels or the September 6or D. Michael Quinn or Fawn Brody, you're basically psychologically and socially murdering them and spiritually murdering them. So the Darth Vader analogy, spiritually and socially and psychologically actually isn't far off.

Meggan Hayes [01:17:51] Right? Right. Well, when my brother, who's a year younger than me, left the church before I did, I was reading the Book of Mormon and had this realization that. That he was dead to me. Because when we died, we would never see each other again. That's what I believed. So him leaving the church did kill him. In a sense. It did. And honestly, it almost ended his life, literally. Because of how hard it was, because of how our family treated him.

John Dehlin [01:18:21] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:18:22] So, yeah, it's not just about discomfort. This is about people's physical and emotional safety. It's about their ability to stay alive and live a life that doesn't just consist of surviving.

John Dehlin [01:18:36] Yeah. And then there's others. That's all true. And there's others who just don't believe it anymore or struggling with their belief, but then they try to attend anyway. And this happened to me. You just get more and more Depressed, more and more anxious. Once you see that the church isn't true, Once you're in the Truman show and. And you realize that you're living in a false reality. Once you've taken the red pill and you've unplugged from the Matrix, or once you've discovered that in the village, that the village elders are keeping you encased in a walled, fake city. Pick your metaphor. Once you're Rapunzel and you realize your mother's been lying to you and trapping you in the tower, once you're Dorothy or Elphaba and you realize that there's a wizard behind the curtain who's been lying to people, you don't just, like, stay in Oz and stay happy. You don't just stay in the tower with your mom oppressing you. You don't just stay in the Matrix and plug yourself back in, or stay in the Truman show and act like everything's okay. When you. When you realize that it's a false, fake reality and you've been fooled, you. You do something about it. Right?

Meggan Hayes [01:19:51] Yeah. I mean, I sat in church for a long time until my husband came to me after church one Sunday and said, you're miserable at church. And I knew I was miserable there, but I was trying to stay because of what Corbridge says in these very videos. If it's true, you just stay. But I was miserable. I was. I was taking the parts of me that were the most alive and the most beautiful, and I was setting them aside so that I could attend church every week and keep my mouth shut and not offend anybody, not make anyone else uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [01:20:21] Yeah. And the body keeps the score. When you go to church for two hours and you feel depressed and anxious and angry and frustrated, it can wear down your mental health. It can cause autoimmune diseases, depression, suicidality. It's not healthy for some to keep attending church once they have taken the red pill or see it for what it is. It's just not healthy to stay. For those who. It's healthy to stay, stay, but it's not healthy for everyone to stay. All right, should we play the next clip?

The Making of a Short Trailer

Meggan Hayes [01:20:55] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:20:56] All right.

Speaker F [01:20:58] Now, that doesn't mean that culture is irrelevant or that leaders cannot cause harm or that we should ignore people who. When they feel wounded or like they don't belong. Elder Corbridge specifically addresses those concerns in the full episode, and I did include some of that context in the trailer. But looking back, I do wish that I would have included more. And I think that's where I Could have done better. I was trying to condense an hour long presentation into a short trailer that would capture attention and encourage people to watch the full episode. But I understand that when too much context is removed, people could walk away with a version of the message that neither the speaker nor the episode actually communicates.

Elder Corbridge on Sexual Abuse in the Church

John Dehlin [01:21:37] All right, what are your thoughts, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [01:21:40] I kept trying to find the part in the video where Elder Corbridge addresses those issues and he doesn't. I kept trying to find it, what he does, the way I mean, I guess he addresses them in his own mind because he says they're secondary and they don't matter and that's really how he addresses them. So sky saying, you just didn't see it all because there was a one minute clip. And if you watch the full video, Corbridge will address this cultural issue we have. He really doesn't. And so the next clip is the only thing I could find that's sort of addressing it because it really was not addressed directly.

John Dehlin [01:22:19] All right, let's roll it.

John Dehlin [01:22:21] The better question regarding God's work on earth is what members are giving to it. And then. And then you will learn what they are getting out of it. If church culture is unfulfilling, that is on us. We must assume personal responsibility for our individual experience in it. President Spencer W. Kimball taught this. One good but mistaken man I know, he said claimed he could get more out of a good book on Sunday than he could get in attending church services, saying that the sermons were hardly up to his standards. But we do not go to Sabbath meetings to be entertained or even solely to be instructed. Listen to this. We go to worship the Lord. It is an individual responsibility, he said. And regardless of what is said from the pulpit, if one wishes to worship the Lord in spirit and truth, he may do so by attending his meetings, partaking of the sacrament and contemplating the beauties of the gospel. If the service is a failure to you, you have failed.

John Dehlin [01:23:44] Holy moly. I hate that. But go ahead. What are your thoughts?

Meggan Hayes [01:23:48] Right. That is how he addresses it. And I don't sky saying, you didn't see the whole video. I will say again, watch the whole video. It does not get better, it gets worse. He is blaming the members for the systemic abuse coming from the church. If you see this, that's your fault. You should probably just close your eyes.

John Dehlin [01:24:10] Yeah, and I think he's saying the quiet part out loud because I think he's reflecting what the First Presidency and the Quorum of the twelve must really feel. They don't feel like, they have to listen to the members. They don't feel like they have to address the truth claims. They don't feel like they have to make the church more interesting or fun or spiritually relevant or compelling. They just, they just feel like it's what cult analysts call blame reversal. If there's anything good, the church gets all the credit. If there's anything wrong, if you're bored, if you're unhappy, if you feel abused, if you're depressed, if you're anxious, that's on you. It's blame reversal. But what we're going to be covering later in the show is that the Mormon Church is hemorrhaging in 2026. And it's hemorrhaging in some ways more than other comparable churches are hemorrhaging. And I believe that's partly because the church leaders have this attitude that they don't need to make it better, the members just need to suck it up. And I think that's why they're hemorrhaging.

The Mormon Church's Haldemic Future

Meggan Hayes [01:25:12] Yes. Oh, yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's, it's showing. They're, they're seeing the rewards of their rhetoric and they have so much money. And, you know, maybe some of the top leaders are also a bit insulated from some of this in a way. Well and honestly, with Oaks and those who are up there in the years, their health, I think, prevents them from engaging with a lot of this.

John Dehlin [01:25:39] Yeah. Oh, for sure. The Gerontocracy is not, is not helpful. Really quickly, we have a super chat. I love you deeply. Writes. What is it about his $3,000 that hasn't convinced you yet? Love, love that comment.

Meggan Hayes [01:25:55] Oh, man. Yeah, I was just trying to buy food when I was a member.

Elder Corbridge's apology for the Darth Vader Comment

John Dehlin [01:26:00] All right, let's play the next clip, shall we? All right.

Speaker F [01:26:05] Elder Corbridge never said that culture is unimportant or that people should tolerate abuse, or that leaders are beyond criticism, or that those who struggle to belong should just get over it. Which brings me to my final point. This trailer was for an hour long episode that carefully develops these ideas. And that episode is part of a 40 part series in which Elder Corbridge is building off of these principles, and he consistently brings difficult truth and gospel grace together. So if the trailer failed to communicate the full spirit of the episode, I am willing to take responsibility. But I would also ask people to watch the full episode before deciding what Elder Corbridge believes or condemning the message that he was trying to share.

Meggan Hayes [01:26:54] I've got it, Jonathan.

John Dehlin [01:26:56] I got it.

Meggan Hayes [01:26:56] We're lazy learners.

John Dehlin [01:27:00] I mean, yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

Meggan Hayes [01:27:03] Well, yeah, if you had just watched all 26 episodes, then you wouldn't have been upset about the Darth Vader comment. And he's taking the fall for this. I've watched a lot of Sky's videos and I have respect for him as a person. I think he's rather kind despite the things that the church has taught him. And I, I do feel bad that he's taking the fall for this, but the logic used is not sound in this, in this way. Just, just watch more. Just watch more. Don't be a lazy learner.

John Dehlin [01:27:38] Yeah, yeah, I don't think, I don't think, as you mentioned, the problem gets solved by watching more of the video. I think it just gets worse. But, but I, but I do think the other option is blame the editor. And we, we all know that, that Dallin H. Oaks has been saying for decades, we neither seek nor offer apologies. And what we, what we all know is that if anyone, if anyone should be apologizing, it's Corbridge or the church leaders, not, not the editor. So it's just lame that, that he is feeling like he needs to take responsibility. Step up, Corbridge. You know, step up jokes.

Meggan Hayes [01:28:19] Well, this reminds me of what happened with Brad Wilcox when he'd been giving the same talk for who knows how many years and then it finally hit the Internet and people were like, hold on a second, this is terrible. Corbridge has been giving this same speech now for seven years and he's got this whole 26 episode show now and people are like, wait a second. You need to be held accountable for these things you're saying. And he's not coming forward. Sky is taking the fall.

John Dehlin [01:28:46] Yeah. Super quick. Thanks to Steve Taverneer for his super chat. He writes. Awesome work as always. Thanks for the super chat, Steve. We do pay Meggan and Julia for their great work in Brooklyn, so your financial support really helps. All right, I think we have one last video clip for the story and then we can move on to the next one. So let's roll the clip.

Jeff Strong on The Problem With the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [01:29:15] The Lord will stretch and pull you in ways you don't want to be stretched and pulled and would not on your own. And much of that happens as an active disciple striving to build up the kingdom of God on earth, enduring whatever bumps and bruises may be sustained along the way. One of the central and unique blessings of the church, and possibly the ultimate purpose, is to qualify and empower God's children to engage in his work and ultimately his life. Even eternal life. It is not. It is not to adapt the church to God's children, but to help his children adapt to him.

John Dehlin [01:30:06] Meggan, final thoughts.

Meggan Hayes [01:30:08] Yeah, just. I think that brings it full circle back to a rebuttal to Jeff Strong. Because Jeff said there is a problem with the culture of the church. There is a problem with people going to church on Sunday and not feeling like they belong. Right. We don't. Brene Brown says fitting in is we change ourselves to be part of a group and belonging is being who we are and still being accepted into a group. Jeff is saying there is a problem in the church because they want us to fit in. They want us to set aside the most beautiful parts of who we are and show up kind of as a machine that keeps the church running. And Corbridge is saying, that's not what the church is for. You put all of those things aside and you come here and you show up in the way we've told you to show up.

John Dehlin [01:30:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:58] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:30:58] I'll just say if we're going to look at the Mormon Church as either. As a binary proposition is either true or false, if that's the way we need to look at it, then I think, yeah, then that it probably should be false and people should leave. That's not how I view religion. But if we're going to accept Hinckley and Corbridge's position, then. Then, yeah, people should be leaving in droves. And I'll. I'll. I'll add that Greg Matson. There's a clip of Greg Matson from the Quick show watching Corbridge's video, and it's just like he's smiling and he's nodding and he's celebrating. And I love Greg and I think there's something healthy and logically consistent about people like Greg and. And Jacob Hansen. Because if you are operating under the premise that it's either true or false, a fraud or God's church, then, then, yeah, then Corbidge is right. It doesn't matter how harmful and abusive the church is. You go because God said so. I just think that that sets them up for a problem. Because as soon as people start learning the truth claims, seeing the harm that the church does, then it makes them feel like they need to leave. So what I think is a healthier approach would be wiser if the church would pay me to be their consultant, is to allow there to be a wing in the church, like the Faith Matters group, like the Restore group, like Patrick Mason and the Gibbons and others who don't look at it as all or nothing, true or false, who just say, there's good here, there's spirituality here. Just like Judaism. I don't have to believe in all the things I can just practice it in my way, be a buffet Mormon, take the things I like, believe the things I like, obey the things I like, and throw away the beliefs and the practices that are harmful to me. I think that's the way the church should be. I think it should allow that sort of nuance. And if you're interested in that type of Mormonism, then I say check out Faith Matters, a podcast. Check out the Restore event. I think there are a lot of other healthy ways to do it. And I really think Corbridge and the Mormon Church leaders are accelerating the church's demise by propping up this false binary that is harmful. That's it. That's all I gotta say.

Meggan Hayes [01:33:28] Yep. I think you're spot on. I think you're spot on. And the rest of the stories that we talk about are gonna see that right through.

John Dehlin [01:33:36] So, Meggan, great work on that. Thank you for summarizing it. I'm getting some, you know, people love your work always, Meggan. And some people love my participation. Some people are saying, I miss Nemo. He's more succinct. He's more short. I'll just say I, I love Nemo. I'm glad Woody can be here. I also have a lot of feedback saying people missed me and they want me to be here. I love all the feedback. What I will say is I'll try and be more succinct. And I always love people reminding me if I'm being repetitive or not being succinct. Please remind me in the chats, in the comments and email. And I'll always try to be more succinct because I value being succinct even if I'm not good at it. Okay, what's the next story, Meggan?

The Mormon Church vs. the Arizona Supreme Court

Meggan Hayes [01:34:22] All right, well, we are going to go on now to talk about what is what happened this past week in the Arizona Supreme Court that involves the Mormon Church. So if you go to the next slide, it'll give us a little background as to why there was even a case in the Arizona Supreme Court that had anything to do with the Mormon Church. So this is a picture of Paul Adams. In 2011, Paul Adams told his Latter Day Saint Bishop, Bishop Herod that he, Paul, was abusing his five year old daughter. The Bishop did not report the abuse. In 2012, Bishop Herod continues meeting with Paul Adams and later Meets with Paul and his wife, Lisa Adams. In 2013, Paul Adams undergoes a church disciplinary council and is excommunicated after admitting to abuse. And then for the next four years, 2013 to 2017, the abuse continues. During this period, Adams also begins abusing another daughter of his. Authorities are not notified through the church at any time during this whole, you know, from 2011 to 2017. And then in 2017, Adam New Zealand investigators discover videos of the abuse online. Homeland Security traces them to Adams in Arizona. Paul and Lisa Adams are arrested. Paul later dies by suicide while awaiting trial. Lisa eventually pleads no contest and is sentenced to prison. Okay, quick sum up of the background there. And then in 2020, three of the Adams children file a SU civil lawsuit against the church and two bishops alleging they violated Arizona's mandatory reporting law by not reporting the abuse. In 2022, the Associated Press publishes its investigation. The church disputes the report and releases its own timeline. In 2023, the Superior Court rules for the church. The bishops had no duty to report because the communications were confidential. And in 2025, the Arizona Court of Appeals reverses the dismissal. The church appeals the court of appeals decision to the Arizona Supreme Court. So that's how we got this lawsuit from the children of Paul Adams to the Arizona Supreme Court. What they basically want to say is that there were times when Paul and his wife were in a confidential, clergy penitent, privileged situation, and there were times that they weren't, and it should have been reported. And we're suing the church because it wasn't reported.

John Dehlin [01:37:00] So the church covered up abuse for a long, long time and didn't report it. The, you know, some of the children filed a lawsuit against the church in Arizona alleging that. That the church should have, you know, reported to prevent future abuse. The. The church lost. Sorry, The. The. The children lost in that lawsuit. It was appealed, and now the superior court has upheld the ruling. Defending the church, protecting the church at the expense of the victims. Is that right?

Meggan Hayes [01:37:38] Yes. They are upholding clergy penitent privilege. If you go into your bishop and you confess a crime that has happened in the past, this is different than something you intend to commit in the future. But you confess a crime that has already been committed, then you're protected. If you're in your bishop's office and you're telling your bishop.

John Dehlin [01:38:00] So the Arizona justice system is siding with the church that, that what we should do is protect the organizations that protect abusers, and we should protect the abusers at the expense of the victims. That's what I'm hearing, yes, yes.

Meggan Hayes [01:38:19] We should protect the confidentiality of the confessors.

John Dehlin [01:38:25] Yeah. Which at the end of the day, protects the abusers at the expense of the victims and at the expense of future victims.

Meggan Hayes [01:38:32] Yes, yes. So then, yeah, there's a news story that sums it up really well.

Arizona Supreme Court upholds law on child abuse lawsuit against Mormon Church

John Dehlin [01:38:36] All right, let's play the clip. The Supreme Court has affirmed a lower court's ruling dismissing a child abuse lawsuit against Mormon church officials in Cochise County. The lawsuit was filed by children of church member Paul Adams, who confessed to abusing a child to clergy. Years later, he was indicted before taking his own life. News for Tucson's Jacob Owens spoke to the Tucson attorney who represents some of his children. Jacob, what do they have to say?

Speaker E [01:39:05] Sean? Lynn Cadigan tells me she's been in this legal fight for the past seven years and she's heartbroken by the Arizona Supreme Court's decision today. She says that across Arizona, children are now in danger because of this ruling.

Meggan Hayes [01:39:20] What this court did is tell this church it's up to you if you

John Dehlin [01:39:24] report it or not.

Speaker E [01:39:25] The case centered on whether church leaders had a legal duty to report Adams's confession. Arizona law requires suspected child abuse to be reported, but provides an exception for clergy when the information is shared through a confidential religious confession. The state high court's ruling is unanimous. Writing in part, quote, the church deemed any communication Paul made during the council proceeding confidential under church doctrine. Thus, we conclude that Paul's alleged admissions to the council were at a minimum, confidential communications for purposes of the reporting statute. The court also ruled that communications with non clergy council members were still protected as confidential under church doctrine. So church officials were not required to report the abuse. Catigan says she intends to appeal this case with which is on behalf of three of Adams's kids to the U.S. supreme Court.

Meggan Hayes [01:40:23] What are they to believe in? Who do they have faith in? Certainly not any institution here.

Speaker E [01:40:29] In a statement, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints says in part, quote, arizona law also recognizes the confidential nature of religious confession. Today's decision affirms that these religious protections are to be respected alongside society. Shared commitment to bring protect the vulnerable. John the church calls the abuse in this case reprehensible and says it's always condemned it.

The Mormon Church Protects the Abusers

John Dehlin [01:40:55] All right, Meggan, what's your. I want to hear your analysis of that.

Meggan Hayes [01:41:01] When someone create, when, when someone abuses a child or, I mean, we don't even have to keep it to that because this clergy penitent privilege actually covers any crime. If they murder somebody, if they commit financial fraud and they go into their bishop and they say, I did this thing. I feel so terrible. And then their bishop puts them through this repentance process. It could be, depending on the bishop, you know, a little slap on the wrist. You don't take the sacrament for a couple of weeks. They could be disfellowshipped, they could be excommunicated. But what ultimately happens is that they could escape any of the real consequences of their actions, and then they're given this clean slate. You're. You're fine now. And if we know anything about people who abuse children, especially sexually abused children, they offend more than one time. So if they can, under this great law, go in and say, I did this thing, and then they can just feel great, then they just perpetuate the abuse cycle over and over again because they just keep getting forgiven, and they're just given this clean slate. I don't. I don't think that that should be allowed to happen. For them to get this clean slate that they want, they should have to go through a real accountability process. And the other thing that this often allows is that those people are then still just sitting in those congregations with all of these kids and nobody knows. And so they still have access to victims, to potential victims, which is what happened in the Paul and Lisa Adams case, is that he was not held accountable. He confessed to his bishop, and he wasn't held accountable. So then he went on to abuse not only that same child again, but another child of his.

John Dehlin [01:42:55] Yeah. Yep. It's really. I think it's. It's probably the absolute. Of all the things we talk about in Mormon stories, Truth claims, LGBT stuff, church history, feminism, racism. As horrible as all those things are, it's got to be the child abuse stuff that's the absolute worst part about the modern Mormon Church, because these are young, vulnerable children being physically, emotionally, and sexually abused. And Jesus, even if you believe in Jesus, he was very clear. It's better to have a millstone hung around your neck and you be drugged down to the bottom of the ocean than to have these children be hurt, you know, and. And, you know, we've covered it for decades on Mormon Stories podcast. The Mormon Church protects the abusers. They keep these abuse cases quiet. They pressure victims to quickly forgive and forget the abuse. They pressure the family members of the abuse victims to forgive and forget and to stay quiet. And then they don't excommunicate or punish the abusers because they don't want to make a big scene. And then they keep it quiet, and then they just continue to give these leaders callings or these abusers callings and responsibilities, or they move to other states or cities, and then they just repeat and they keep offending. And what they also never do is they never warn the general membership that there is now a legitimate child abuser amongst them, which then leaves future Mormon Church members and children vulnerable to abuse. And the final thing is they use their power, money and influence to influence state legislatures and state constitutions to enact these protections that protect the abusers and protect the church against anyone knowing that all this abuse is rampant. And so if the Mormon Church wanted to, they could use their power and their money to lobby the state legislatures to change the state constitutions to make church leaders mandatory reporters without exception. Because we all know that the true answer is just to always have child abuse reported to the police without a question. That's the right thing. I don't think anybody who's credible or reasonable disagrees with that. And the Mormon Church won't use its money and power to do that. It wants to use its money and power, in my opinion, to continue silencing victims and protecting the good name of the church by protecting the abusers. All right, final thoughts. What's this last slide, Meggan?

The Church's handbook on sexual abuse

Meggan Hayes [01:45:56] So this one, I just, when I was looking around, I was like, well, what things are mandatory that require holding a membership council in the current handbook? And this is the list of things. So the church says, you know, they have the gold standard for protecting children. And this might be one of the things that they point to where it's mandatory to require a membership council if there has been child or youth abuse. But the one thing that stood out to me was where it says sexual assault conviction. And I hope I can flesh this out. But bishops are not given training, right? They're, they're put into their position and their hand at the. This handbook, and they're reading through it. And this is why you get bishops who put really harsh measures on people and bishops who learn of abuse and don't call anybody. But this says it only requires a membership council if there has been a conviction. And so then people could read that and say, well, you know, he came in and confessed to me, but he hadn't been convicted. Well, how's he going to get convicted if the law doesn't even know about it? But it just, the, the handbook creates so much confusion about what actually needs to be done. So then this bishop's feeling overwhelmed. He calls the hotline and they say, oh, let me look up the law in Your state. Oh, you're not required to report. Go ahead and just wrap this one up and we're good.

John Dehlin [01:47:13] Yeah. I like to say where your excommunications are, there will your heart be also. What, what we see is who does the church excommunicate? It's critics. Sam Young for protecting children. Natasha for protecting mental health. You know people, honest historians, they get excommunicated. Who doesn't get automatically excommunicated? Child abusers. Who doesn't get automatically reported to police. Child abusers. And that just shows that the church cares more about its money, its power and its reputation than it does children.

Meggan Hayes [01:47:47] Yes. Yeah. And their handbook is laid out in a way that allows them to do that.

John Dehlin [01:47:52] Yeah, yeah. They see legal same sex marriage or honest truth telling or ethical mental health practices or the protection of children as excommunicable. The defenses. Whereas actual child abuse is optionally excommunicable. And we're going to do all we can to, to protect the child abuser and to prevent excommunication if in any way we can.

Meggan Hayes [01:48:18] Yes. It doesn't make any sense unless you look at them. Like I've said, I think every newscast as a corporation who is run by PR and trying to protect their bottom line.

John Dehlin [01:48:30] Yeah. It makes no sense. And it's just, it's the worst sin of all. Any final thoughts or should we go to the next story?

Exposing Pedophiles in the Mormon Church

Meggan Hayes [01:48:36] Yeah, I just. That. That was it. I just wanted there to be an update on that since that case has been going on for a long time.

John Dehlin [01:48:41] I was talking to Colby Reddish. He's just disgusted with the outcome of that case as an attorney and as someone who cares about children. So.

Meggan Hayes [01:48:50] Yeah, yeah, because like you said, they, they didn't just protect people internally. They're not just doing NDAs. They are pushing for laws that allow them to keep doing it. They're going publicly out there and wanting there to be laws so they can keep child abuse secret.

John Dehlin [01:49:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:09] I'll add Julia writes Tim Kosnoff, the. The attorney who advocates for child abuse victims in Mormon context. He said to Julia that he knows of many, many cases of Mormon pedophiles being baptized. Just think about Wade Christofferson, the brother of D. Todd Christofferson who's in the Mormon First Presidency. He was baptized within a year, as I understand it, rebaptized within a year of being excommunicated for pedophilia, child abuse. Lavina Fielding Anderson, who all she did was list abusers within the Mormon church. She spent 30 years attending church or more and was never rebaptized. Michael Quinn was never rebaptized. I have not been rebaptized. The church will rebaptize a pedophile a hundred times faster than they will a critic of the church. And I think where your re baptisms are, there will your heart be also.

Meggan Hayes [01:50:08] Yep. All right, they are showing us exactly who they are, John.

John Dehlin [01:50:12] By, by their, you know, by, by their excommunications and by the re baptisms, we know who they are. Okay, this next quote I think is a huge, huge, huge story. Tell us about this story, Meggan.

Why Are So Many Young Women Leaving the Mormon Church?

Meggan Hayes [01:50:27] This is from Jana Reese and the more I read from her her, the more I just love her work. She writes under the title Flunking Sainthood, which I think I need like a shirt or something. But it says why are so many young women leaving Mormonism? More than half of young adult women who grew up LDS have now left. Many are reacting against politics, purity, culture and powerlessness.

John Dehlin [01:50:50] Yeah, so that's the headline. Well, it's not only more than half of the women in, in the United States who are raised Mormon have left, but it's also that Mormon women, as I understand it, are, are leaving the Mormon church at a higher rate than men, which is not how most religions work. And I think we've covered this before, right Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [01:51:12] Well, and that's new too, because it didn't used to be that way.

John Dehlin [01:51:15] Right. Well, let's go to the data.

Meggan Hayes [01:51:19] Okay, so this chart comes from Ryan Berg's 2025 Spiritual Seismology Survey. And it says approximately 4 in 10 Gen Z women who grew up LDS are still in the church, meaning 6 and 10 are out. For 18 year old Mormon women the retention rate was just 37.5%. So on the graph there you see the men are in blue and the females are in that pink red color. And it used to be where females left the church at a much lower rate and now it has just skyrocketed, especially younger females. For 18 year old Mormon women, the retention rate was just 37.5%.

John Dehlin [01:52:02] Yeah. Okay, so help me understand these lines again, Meggan. So the red is females and what that line, that line's basically going 20 or. Okay, so 20 year olds are. The church is only retaining less than 40% of their 20 year olds women, is that right?

Meggan Hayes [01:52:24] Yes. Yeah, 37.5. And that's the left side of the graph there. It shows 20 year old women and then for 20 year old men it's like 55%.

John Dehlin [01:52:32] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [01:52:33] Yeah. And then on the right hand Side, it's as you're going up in age, so older women and older men are staying a little bit closer to the same rate, but younger women are leaving in such large numbers that like you said, when you average it out, women now are leaving more so than men.

John Dehlin [01:52:51] Yeah. So this is not, not only huge. Yeah, this, this is a huge problem for the future of the Mormon Church. And Meggan, as a woman and, and as a, as a mother of, of, let's just say, Gen Z. Young women, why are so, in your opinion, why are so many young women fleeing the Mormon Church?

Why Are So Many Women Leaving the Mormon Church?

Meggan Hayes [01:53:13] I think if I look at me and if I look at my children, it's because we wanted a voice. And in the Mormon Church, a woman's voice can only go so far. You know, Camille Johnson. Johnson sits in meetings with the quorum of the 12 in the first presidency, I would probably say on a weekly basis. Right. But does she make the final decision? She doesn't. She never does. Matter of fact, she can't even be in those highest councils because of the way the church is set up, even if she aspired to. And that makes it so. And that is mirrored on a ward level as I was a Relief Society president two times, and every single time I planned an activity, I had to get the go ahead from a man before I could do an activity for me and other women my age. And there had to be a male leader present in the building, you know, in case priesthood authority was needed for something that we were doing. I think women want to be seen. I think women want to have a voice.

John Dehlin [01:54:15] Yeah, yeah. And then also, I think for a long time we've covered the fact that women, Mormon women aren't encouraged to get educations to pursue careers. You know, so in addition to being left out of the decision making and the leadership positions in the church, they're just not. They're basically just told, your only value is as a mommy. Your only value is in the home. And you know, you don't really, you know, education and career for you is optional. And not only, I think, you tell me. But not only is that not necessarily what young women want to hear these days, it's also just not the way the world works. I mean, what young married couple these days with this economy can live on one income? So how in any reality are 20 something women not best served by pursuing their education and pursuing careers because they're inevitably going to have to be breadwinners? Am I wrong, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [01:55:21] No, you're not wrong. And even 20 years ago, when I got Married and was trying to start out. I was getting my degree and I was always working. And we still, you know, I was working from home because we had six kids in 10 years. We were struggling to make ends meet even with that. So, yes, people who get married now or people who are in partnership and want to be even somewhat comfortable, unless you have a very lucrative career, you need two people to make that happen and to run a household. It's really difficult nowadays.

John Dehlin [01:55:57] Yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, let's go to these next. These next stats. What do these stats say?

Mormon membership trends, especially women

Meggan Hayes [01:56:05] So this came from. So these are both graphs that Jana Reese referenced in her article. This is the second one. This one comes from the Pew 2023, 2024 Religious Landscape Study. And it says among people who were raised as Latter Day Saints, the percent who identify as Latter Day Saint Mormon in adulthood. So men between ages 18 and 49, 54% who were raised Mormons still identify. Women. 18 to 49 is only 49%. Men. Less than half.

John Dehlin [01:56:40] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [01:56:40] Yes. Less than half. Men, 50 plus 57% and women 50 plus 66%. That older generation of women is the trend that we've been used to. But now when we look at the younger generation, the women are leaving more than the men.

John Dehlin [01:56:58] And the way I make sense of that is that if you're a woman over 50, a Mormon woman over 50, you're not going to be able to go back to school, start a new career. You're really dependent on your husband's income at that point, almost fully. And so you just don't really have the option of really leaving. You're kind of stuck. Plus, the older you are, the less likely you are to make a change. But anything under 50, it looks like the Mormon women just feel like I'm going to be better off pursuing education, pursuing a degree, or just leaving the church. So I think that's really interesting, and I think that's really significant. Let's go ahead and go to the next slide.

What's Driving Women Out of the LDS Church?

Meggan Hayes [01:57:44] So this was what Jana was addressing in her article, why are so many young women leaving? She gave the stats, but it wasn't necessarily about the stats. It was the why behind it. And she gave three reasons. Politics. Young women have become increasingly politically liberal, creating greater tension with the LDS Church's conservative positions on issues like LGBTQ rights, women's equality, and abortion. Did you want to talk about these separately, or should I go through all three?

John Dehlin [01:58:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:14] No, yeah, let's talk about them properly. So, politics. So they're basically saying Mormonism is too conservative, too maga and that's driving women out. What are your thoughts on that, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [01:58:24] Yeah, I think that's, that's happening because we are so connected as a culture now. And in the 90s I knew one person, knew of one person in my entire high school, this was in Utah, who was gay. There were certainly more, but I didn't know about him. We didn't talk about it. We kind of whispered in these hush hush ways. That's not happening anymore. And I think people are finding out that they've listened to all this rhetoric from the church about gay people, but then they've, they know people who are gay and they're like, hold on, this doesn't really match up. And I don't want to disavow, disavow my, my gay friend's relationship. I want to go to their wedding, I want to celebrate them. And so they're having this tension between what they are seeing in their lives and what the church has been telling them. And for a lot they, they just can't hold that tension anymore. They're like, if I want to fully support these people who I love, who the church says are living in sin, then I just, I have to leave my values tell me that I can't stay here and pay a 10% tithing to a church that is advocating for these sorts of things.

John Dehlin [01:59:42] Yeah, love it. The two things that come to my mind is it regards to conservative politics in maga is that number one, if you hate the church and you want to see the Mormon church decline, you should Love Ward Radio YouTube channel. You should love Jacob Hanson YouTube channel. You should love quick Greg Matson because I think we all know that their politics are more conservative. And you should love the Paul Brothers, Jackson Paul and the Paul Brothers because all those dudes are, you know, conservative magas. And as their voices become the official voices of the Mormon Church because the leaders are too cowardly to actually speak for themselves. And so instead the, these apologetic male YouTube voices are becoming the most prominent. If you hate the Mormon Church, you should love the rise of, of MAGA men, Mormon apologist YouTubers. And I just think that is going to harm the church the more that these voices become mainstream. And just look at Jacob Hansen's videos and Ward Radio's videos and Greg Matson's videos and the Paul brothers, they're all on the rise and they like to laugh at like Mormon stories or you or others and say look, we're growing at a much faster rate than Nemo or, or Radio Free Mormon or whoever. I just don't think it's going to lead to the outcome that they want. Because if you hate the church, you want the Paul brothers and Ward Radio and Jacob Hansen and Greg Matson to, to, to be successful. Because what it means is more and more women are going to hemorrhage and leave the church. That's, that's the first thing I want to say. And then just the second thing I want to say is, is the, is that this, this is a double bind for the church because they already have been declaring war on, on the liberals and the progressives, but now they're going to be having to think about, do we also attack the MAGA conservatives? Because if the MAGA conservatives are harming the church and chasing out the women, all the church can do is is try to go after them as well. But once they're going after fighting a two front war, it's. There's a no win situation. So will the church fight its MAGA movement to try and keep women from leaving or will it just allow them to grow and accelerate the demise of the church?

If You Hate the Mormon Church, You Should Love MAGA Men

Meggan Hayes [02:02:25] Yeah, I'm trying to make sense of all of this with this quote that I heard this morning week that said, the tools of our oppressors will not heal us.

John Dehlin [02:02:35] Yeah, that's right.

Meggan Hayes [02:02:39] I'm going to be thinking on that. I don't have a lot to say about it now, but that has been in my head this whole week. And what you just said just brought it up again.

John Dehlin [02:02:46] Yeah. All right, let's go to the second point. Go ahead, Meggan.

Purity Culture and the Shortening of the Garments

Meggan Hayes [02:02:50] Okay. Purity culture. Early 2000s purity culture disproportionately targeted girls. Dallin Oaks warned Girls specifically in 2005 that if they dressed immodestly, they were becoming pornography to men.

John Dehlin [02:03:05] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [02:03:06] Yeah. I think this is a huge one. And this is something that affected me a lot personally because I was, my, my body was an enemy to me when I was growing up because it could entice men. It could cause other people to have bad thoughts. I needed to cover it up because it was dangerous. I needed to protect other people just from my body, just from me existing. That. That was a threat to the salvation of the boys and the men around me. And that took a huge toll on me. And I know a lot of other women. And it wasn't just, I mean, it was, it was garments. It was the Strength of Youth pamphlet. It was having to go to my bishop to get a dance card, to go to the dances, the stake dances, and then showing up at the door and having them looking at my hemlines, my body became an enemy. And that was really hard to process and start to heal from. And so I could see how that, that specific purity culture would tell women, the church is not a safe place for me because I don't want my body to be looked at as a weapon when I'm just trying to exist. I'm just trying to breathe, and I'm just trying to, you know, show up in church and listen to the sermon. And here I am sitting here as this weapon.

John Dehlin [02:04:32] Yeah, well said. And maybe the greatest evidence that the church is paying attention to this purity culture problem is the shortening of the garments. Like the garments are supposed to be given by revelation from God. And so. And yet we've been harping on this purity culture stuff for a couple decades now and making fun of porn shoulders and how the church blames women for the, the dirty thoughts of the Mormon men because woe they might see their legs, or woe they might see their knees, or woe they might see their shoulders. And clearly the church, clearly women are walking because of the garments and because of this damaging purity culture messaging. In part. And now we know the church is paying attention because of all things. They're shortening the garments when they were supposed to have been designed by Jesus, basically. So we know they're paying attention. We'll see if the shortening of the garments stems the hemorrhaging of women. What do you think? Do you think it will?

Meggan Hayes [02:05:31] I don't know. It could also just give them this little bit of freedom that they then latch onto and think, well, if my shoulders could have always been shown, maybe I can also wear a two piece swimsuit and if that prevents me from going to girls camp, so be it.

John Dehlin [02:05:47] Yeah. Anytime the church changes, it reminds people that the leaders are probably just making this up. Because if they were led by God back then, why would anything ever need to be changed?

Meggan Hayes [02:05:59] Yes. Yes. Which is the thought I had a lot of times when my daughters were teenagers, my older daughters. Yeah. I didn't think it so much when I was a teenager because I was all in. But later on.

John Dehlin [02:06:11] Yeah. All right, what's the third point?

Women in the Church: Powerlessness

Meggan Hayes [02:06:13] Powerlessness. Many young women experience a growing disconnect between the equality they experience in society and the limited leadership opportunities available to women in the church, they are voting with their feet.

John Dehlin [02:06:27] Any thoughts?

Meggan Hayes [02:06:29] Yeah, I, I think that especially now that a lot more younger LDS women are getting an education and going all the way through, they're not just showing up at BYU to find A husband. They're showing up there to actually obtain a degree and go into the workforce. And then they go into the workforce and they realize I could become a CEO in this company that I'm in. And when I go into a. Actually, so when we lived in Fairbanks, I worked in the mayor's office, and it took me a really long time to go into a meeting with the mayor and usually what was a lot of other men and push myself through the feeling that I was the least qualified person in the room. I really had to fight back against that because that's what I was taught in the church. But once I realized that, it made the church even less appealing to me because when I there, there was no way for me to go into a meeting with the bishop and for me to say, my idea is better than yours. And I know that because I've researched it and I've put all this work in the bishop and the stake president and the prophet, whether they were more educated on a topic than me or not, they trumped whatever it was I had to say. And, yeah, and when I went into the workforce, I realized it. It didn't have to be that way. And so I think there are a lot of young women who are now going and getting degrees and realizing, I'm just as good at this as everybody else. And. And why can't I be the one in charge?

John Dehlin [02:08:05] Yeah. Yeah. I'm always baffled by things like this. Like, imagine Black and Decker or Delta Airlines saying, yeah, women can't be executives. Like, imagine women can't be managers. Like, the world would revolt. Like, the airline would come to a screeching halt and it would be shut down. It would die. Somehow religions can do the same thing, and people give them a pass. I don't get it. In 2026. It makes no sense. Really quickly, let me ask you, Meggan. The church is trying to address this issue of powerlessness in various ways. And let me just quiz you a little bit on how you feel about some of these solutions. So one solution is for them to say, well, women have always had the priesthood. They've just, you know, in the temple ceremony, the women officiate, you know, in the washings and the anointings and the endowments. So in that sense, they've always had the priesthood. What's your reaction to that?

Meggan on Priesthood Power

Meggan Hayes [02:09:08] Then why couldn't I give my kid a blessing when they were sick? As a mother, as the one who was home with them 75 to 80% of the time over my husband, why did I need to Wait till he got home. If my kid had a fever of 102 and, and I thought a blessing would heal that, why did I have to wait for him? If I had priesthood power, why couldn't I use it?

John Dehlin [02:09:29] Okay, here's another thing they say if you are a Sunday school teacher as a woman or Relief Society president, as a woman, you have more power than the Pope. You have more authority than the Pope because the Pope's authority and power is false. Any pastor of an evangelical Christian church, their authority and power is false. But you know, when you serve as a Relief Society president or even a Sunday school teacher, you're serving under the power of God's one true church with priesthood authority. And so even if you don't can't serve in the priesthood or in top church leadership, you as a Mormon woman have plenty of power just as a Sunday school teacher.

Meggan Hayes [02:10:12] Well, first of all, that's really rude and inconsiderate to the Catholics who believe the same as Mormons do that there is authority in their church. And secondly, it's just not true. It's just not true. I, this one time the, when I was a Relief Society president, the stake president told the Stake Relief Society president to tell all the Relief Society presidents in the stake right just before Christmas to go out and assess everyone's needs. What do the sisters needs? It's Christmas time and we just want every family to have a wonderful Christmas and just have the basic needs. If someone needs food, let's address it, et cetera. So I was the Relief Society president, I went out and I talked to, I was in a small branch, so I talked to every single sister and there was one sister who could use a food order. And so I went to the bishop and I said, I have done what I was told to do. I have assessed the needs. There is this woman who needs a food order and he said she should be self sufficient. And after that there was nothing I could say because he'd put his foot down, I couldn't go in and write the check for her. We didn't have a bishop storehouse on the island that I lived on. I was not allowed to supersede his authority. And when I went to the stake president, he said the same thing. Well, your bishop is the steward of your or your branch. President is the steward of your branch. And you know, he's the one who has stewardship. So yeah, he, he got revelation as to what should happen. I was the one who'd sat down with that sister. I was the one who'd hugged her. I was the one who had dried her tears and I couldn't get her a hundred dollars worth of non perishable foods because the bishop said he knew better or the branch president said he knew better.

John Dehlin [02:12:02] Thank you. I'm a sad story, but very powerful. Thank you for sharing.

Meggan Hayes [02:12:06] Yeah.

Mormon women and the issue of the priesthood

John Dehlin [02:12:07] One more question. Okay. The Mormon church is not harmful to women or not oppressive because now women don't have to veil their face in the temple when they used to have to veil their face. And, and now women don't have to covenant with their husbands as their husbands covenant with God. And now women don't have to covenant to hearken to their husbands as their husbands covenant with God. But instead Mormon women in the temple don't veil their face and they covenant directly with God. So the church is good with women. What's your reaction to that?

Meggan Hayes [02:12:43] Women? Yes, they changed that. I actually remember when I went through and I was like, like, oh, obey my husband. Yeah, that makes sense. And guess what, it still makes sense because even though they don't say that language again, who presides in the home? Who is the priesthood holder in the home? If I am a single Mormon woman and I have a child who wants even just a back to school blessing, you know, we called them father's blessings. What do I do? I call my home teachers. So am I making a covenant with God through these other men? Yeah, yeah. Because they're the ones who ultimately hold the power. When I go to the celestial kingdom, which, you know, if I was, who's going to call me through there? I don't get to walk through. My husband has to know my special name and he has to call me through. So whether or not I am making that covenant with God, I have to go through my husband to get to him every single time.

John Dehlin [02:13:48] Yeah. And you know, you kind of bring up this, this idea of presiding. It really, it really comes down to the proclamation on the family, which is the church's official statement on men and women and the role of men and women in the church. And men are, are called to preside and provide and protect according to the proclamation on the family. And it's the women's role to nurture the children and to be homemakers. And I don't know how the church really gets out of this mess without either rescinding the proclamation on the family or changing it. And I have a hard time imagining them doing that. So it's hard to imagine the church really fixing, materially fixing this problem. I'll give you the final words on that.

Meggan Hayes [02:14:30] Yeah, well, and I think that's why they just keep putting all of this, you know, like lipstick on a pig type thing where it's bad and they don't want to change the fundamental doctrine behind it. So they keep making these minor little changes to try and just pretty it up a little bit so that people will stay and say, well, at least I don't have to veil my face. I still can't get into the celestial kingdom unless my husband calls my special name, but I don't have to veil my face in the temple. It's just these little breadcrumbs.

John Dehlin [02:14:59] Yeah, it is. A couple comments that I think you'll enjoy. Tannin Sand Tales 5682 writes I'm shocked Meggan has teenage daughters. I thought she was in her twenties. What say ye, Meggan?

Meggan Gets All the Love

Meggan Hayes [02:15:16] Oh, I'm just very wise and very young. No, my, my oldest child is 23, so I always tell people I have my math. Yeah, I had my babies when I was a baby too. You know, I did the Mormon thing and started young. But yes, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:15:31] Somebody else writes Meggan, you are a tremendous asset to Mormon stories. Thank you for your podcast as well. So, so many, so many favorable comments. People love you, Meggan. I hope you feel the love.

Meggan Hayes [02:15:44] I. I do. I love to acknowledge how hard I've worked to get to where I am, and it really helps me, like, feel validated when other people notice that. Something else that I've really had to work on is that I'm not the dumbest person in the room and my hard work shows and people can see it. And it's so hard for me to acknowledge that. So I've just learned to say thank you and really try to soak it in.

John Dehlin [02:16:09] I love it. I'll read one more. Aaron Stewart writes John, I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed your narration of no Man Knows My History. History. Thank you, Aaron. And I'll just tell people what he's talking about. A year or two ago, I was invited to narrate the amazing classic book no Man Knows My history by Fawn McKay Brody. It's it's one of the best biographies that Joseph Smith ever written, and I was humbled that they asked me to do the voice narration. I had spent years trying to get the rights to create an audiobook. Not because I wanted to narrate it, just because I felt like that was such an important book. There needed to be an audiobook out there. I tried and failed to get the audio rights for it to produce an audiobook. And I kind of gave up. And then, lo and behold, some audiobook publisher back east in Vermont obtained the rights to create the audiobook for no Man Knows My History. And they asked me to narrate it. And I even felt maybe a woman should do it, maybe someone else should do it, but they really wanted me to, and I wanted it to get done. So against my preferences and for very, very little money, negligible money, almost no money, I went ahead and did the audio narration and it was released a couple weeks ago. So if you want to listen to an audio version of no Man Knows My History, it's now available and it's if you want a discount on, on purchasing it, I'm going to be announcing soon a really cool project with the Joe Smith podcast where I'm going to help you get that audio version of no Man Knows My History at a heavily discounted rate as part of a book club project that we're going to be doing. So stay tuned on that. All right, Meggan, let's go to the next story. And that's the the church's response to this claim that women are hemorrhaging and leaving the church.

Aaron Stewart Narrates No Man Knows My History

Justin Dyer on Women Leaving the Church

Meggan Hayes [02:18:13] Right. So this is Justin Dyer, and he wrote an analysis opinion for the Deseret News saying don't compare religious retention figures that are measured differently. That was the emphasis of his entire article. And I am, I split this up into two. So first we'll see his response, response to Jana Reese, and then we will see his response to a different set of numbers that came out. So if you go to the next slide. So Justin Dyer says lower retention among young LDS women reflects a broader trend affecting many religions, not just Mormonism. So JJANA Put these three points out there, which I think were very well articulated. Politics, purity, culture, and powerlessness. Because her whole point was not that they are leaving necessarily, but why are they leaving? And Justin's response is, well, but everybody, everybody's leaving all the churches, which was not what Jana was talking about. It's just, I think it's another instance where he doesn't really want to address what she's talking about. He doesn't want to address that specific concern. And so he's just going to say it's not just a Mormon problem, it's an everybody problem, which I wrote this question down. If the church claims unique divine guidance, what outcomes should we reasonably expect to be different? Should the church be just like everybody else? Should they, every time something goes wrong, be able to point out, well, but it goes wrong in every church. That's the question.

John Dehlin [02:19:53] Yeah. It reminds me of when a Mormon apologists say, hey, you know, don't focus on the Book of Mormon having historical historicity problems. The Bible has his historicity problems too. I'm like, I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by, by highlighting that. Like how about just focus on the problems because all you're doing is shining a light on more problems.

Meggan Hayes [02:20:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:20:22] Also, you're avoiding providing real meaningful solutions to the problem by deflecting onto other things.

Meggan Hayes [02:20:32] Yes. Yeah, they just, they just will do anything they can to not address the actual issue that was brought up. You know, let's, I mean, Jeff Strong did a great job.

John Dehlin [02:20:44] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:20:44] Addressing it, but Justin Dyer does not want to do that.

John Dehlin [02:20:47] Yeah. And I think the church just feels like if they acknowledge the problem is legitimate, that accelerates the problem. So in other words, you want to manipulate your members into believing that all is well in Zion, into believing that the church is strong and is growing. Because acknowledging that the church is hemorrhaging in the church leaders mind leads to more hemorrhaging. Is that possible, Meggan, that many people's faith, like I was raised to believe that this is one of the fastest growing churches in the world and that part of the reason that the Mormon church is true is, is, is bolstered by or strengthened by the fact that it's growing so fast. Which means that if it stops growing or if it starts shrinking, which it's actually doing, then that leads members to think, well, maybe it's not true, maybe it's false, because why would God's true church hemorrhage and decline? So Meggan, is there a good reason for church leaders to want to downplay or deny the hemorrhaging? Because it could cause many members to question or doubt or leave the church once they learn or believe that the church is hemorrhaging or dying.

Meggan Hayes [02:22:05] Yes. I mean in the 80s and 90s, the church was the stone cut out of the mountain without hands. It was filling the whole earth and there, there was no stopping it. That it was this wonderful exciting thing to be part of. The other thing it makes me think of is the broken windows theory. I think is what it's called where if there's a neighborhood and one window gets broken, then it's more likely for other ones to get broken, for other rocks to be put through windows. So if the church can hide the hemorrhaging and keep this really beautiful view of all of this growth, and we're going to talk about Africa. And we're going to show 100 people joined in the past week in Africa. Then people won't go to church on Sunday in their ward in downtown Salt Lake and think, where is everybody? They'll just be thinking, the church is growing in Africa. And that's really exciting. There is a human need to want to be part of something that is flourishing and growing and is exciting.

John Dehlin [02:23:11] It's like it's the bandwagon effect. Right. If everybody is joining something, you want to join it, too. But if everybody's hemorrhaging and fleeing and leaving from something, maybe it's less interesting and less compelling. And. And you start wondering, what's going on? Why are people jumping out of the Titanic and jumping into yellow boats? Could it be that the boat is sinking? Maybe I should jump out, too. I think that's what's going on. So will it work, Meggan? Do you think less people will flee the church if the church keeps denying that there's a problem?

Meggan Hayes [02:23:46] No, because they can't hide things like they used to be able to.

Speaker E [02:23:50] To.

Meggan Hayes [02:23:51] We just have too much information at our fingertips nowadays. And honestly, if you go. If you've been going to church for. In the. In the same ward in the United States for 10, 15 years, you see what's happening right there in your ward, they can say all they want that, you know, oh, it's just because everyone from California moved to Idaho or whatever it is they're saying, but people are just seeing it. And if there are people who are going to church because of the community and the community is disappearing, that's going to be another reason that people are like, this isn't for me anymore. I need community, and there's not a community here anymore.

John Dehlin [02:24:28] Yeah. My take is I think it is smart for them to hide and lie the fact that people are fleeing because I think it does slow down the demise versus admit it. It's just dishonest.

Meggan Hayes [02:24:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:41] Deceptive.

Meggan Hayes [02:24:42] You know, it's its own problem. Because that's when people find out they've been lied to.

John Dehlin [02:24:46] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:24:46] That's when they experience the betrayal. And that's when they have a really hard time even staying as just a utility versus a validity Mormon. When they stay because of the community, but then they realize they've been lied to, it gets harder to stay because my community lied to me. You know what? Was my bishop complicit? Was my stake president complicit in this?

John Dehlin [02:25:06] Yeah. All right, let's go to the next slide.

Justin Dyer on the Mormon Church's Retention Problem

Meggan Hayes [02:25:10] Okay, so this is. Let me get down There the other set of information that Justin Dyer is going to address. So he first addressed Jenna Reese's why are People Leaving? Only he didn't really address it. He just said it's happening in every church. And this is the next set of information that he's going to talk about. Justin Dyer is going to try to push back on the graphs about religion by Ryan Berg. And he says the LDS Church has a retention problem. Defection is rampant and it doesn't matter how they were raised. That's his.

John Dehlin [02:25:43] This is a substack article, right. That Ryan Burge released. He's not a Mormon. He's not an ex Mormon. He just writes about religion. And people been wanting him to cover the Mormon Church's retention problem for a long time. And he finally did. And we'll have Julia or whoever share a link in the, in the comments and in the show notes to his article. But, but we're talking about the in Hebrew. It's a wonderful article with a ton of really good graphics. And so we're going to go over those right now. Go ahead.

The Problem with Religious Retention

Meggan Hayes [02:26:17] Yeah. So religious retention by tradition, Jewish 70%, 76% who remain in their childhood religion as adults. So these are people who were raised Jewish and as adults, they still identify that way. The nuns, which is people who identify with no religious sect is 74% who were raised in no religion stay non religious. For Protestants, 71% who were raised Protestant stay Protestant. Catholics, it's 58%. Other religions is 56%. And down there at the, the bottom of the graph is the LDS Church where he says that 54% of people who were raised in the Mormon Church remain in the church as adults. They're at the bottom.

John Dehlin [02:27:08] So again, this is reflecting what so many of us have been saying for a long time, that the church in the United States, this is, and I think we really have to make this point. We're not talking about third world massive inactivity rates and you know, people who joined the church and never really believed and leave immediately. Like, we know the retention rate in, in the developing world is like 10%. In other words, 90% of the people overseas baptized leave the church. Like, we've known that, that, that problem has existed for a long time and that's why the church claims 17 million. But we know there's really only 4 million who are members worldwide. But what we're saying is that half of those raised in the church, not converts, half of those raised in the church in the United States, the Global center for the Church, have Left, and it's accelerating. So that 54% number is probably going to just get lower and lower with time. Is that right?

Meggan Hayes [02:28:14] Yes, because this is the Pew Religious landscape study from 2023 to 2024.

John Dehlin [02:28:19] Right.

Meggan Hayes [02:28:19] You know, we're, we're a couple years out from that now, so it's just

John Dehlin [02:28:22] going to get worse. Okay, we're. According to this graph, last of the categories considered, we're doing the worst job at retention. All right, let's go to the next slide.

When People Leave the Mormon Church, 65% Go Non-Rel

Meggan Hayes [02:28:33] So, and this one says, where do former LDS members go among those raised LDS who no longer identify as LDS, 65% of them go on to be non religious, whether that's agnostic, atheists, they don't identify with any certain religious group or sect. With Protestants, that's only 21%. Other is 10, and Catholics is 4%. And I know you've talked about this so many times on your podcast, John, when people leave the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [02:29:01] Wait, wait, can I correct you? I. Tell me.

Meggan Hayes [02:29:04] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:05] Understanding you, or maybe I want to do a correction. What I understand this is saying is of Those in the US who leave the Mormon church, 65% no longer go to any church, 21% go to a Protestant church. From the being Mormon, 10% go to another church, and then 4% convert to Catholicism. I. I don't know if I misunderstood you.

Meggan Hayes [02:29:28] No, no, no, you're right. You're right.

John Dehlin [02:29:31] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [02:29:31] Yes, yes. Thank you. Yeah. So it's. I think the biggest part of the graph, though, is the. When people leave the Mormon Church, they very rarely join another religion.

John Dehlin [02:29:42] Yeah. Mr. Agnostic.

Meggan Hayes [02:29:45] Yes. Yeah. Excuse my misreading of the graph on there. I was. Yeah, I was still thinking about the other one.

John Dehlin [02:29:50] And my Christian audience hates this. They hate that there's something about Mormonism that is fatal to a belief in God or in Jesus once you leave. And they're always saying, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Keep God, keep Jesus. Why does the Mormon Church kill a belief in God, in Jesus? And we could do our own episodes on that, but that's. The facts is that we're getting this. I've been saying this for a long time that well over half of the people I talk to who leave the church just become atheist or agnostic. By the way. That's not what my goal is. That's not what I'm fighting for. I've never identified as atheist or agnostic. I don't see myself as against Jesus or Christianity or Christ. It's just what the church does to people not what Mormon stories wants as an outcome.

Meggan Hayes [02:30:43] Yes. Yeah, and that's what I was going to say. You've said this so many times over the years. The people who leave, they. They leave, leave. And I even. I tried to go to another Christian church, and then I realized that they were just as harsh about LGBTQ plus people as the Mormon Church. And then I didn't try again after that. I was. I was done.

John Dehlin [02:31:00] I think it's. Once you have a totalistic belief that just encompasses your whole worldview, where it's everything, and then you find out you've been lied to, you have a hard time trusting anything again, including God or Jesus, because you've been so comprehensively lied to with such a comprehensive religious worldview, you're just too burned to ever trust belief or any religion again.

Meggan Hayes [02:31:29] Like you said, people will say there's. There's anachronisms in the Bible, so it's fine, but. So once I learned about the ones in the Book of Mormon, and then I was like, oh, wait, they're in the Bible too. So I guess none of that makes sense to me anymore.

John Dehlin [02:31:43] Yeah. All right, what's the next slide, Meggan?

Mormons vs Protestants: How Loyal Are They?

Meggan Hayes [02:31:47] All right, let's see if I can get this one right. So childhood attendance among LDS stayers versus leavers. So this is how many times a week did you go to church as a child and how likely were you to leave, depending on that attendance? Am I looking at that right, John?

John Dehlin [02:32:08] I mean, I think so.

Meggan Hayes [02:32:11] So people who went to church once a week or more than once a week as a child, over 7, 70, it looks like 72% of them left the church like that. That actually is pretty astounding to me. Because you think if you're going and you're the most indoctrinated, you'd be the most likely to stay.

John Dehlin [02:32:38] Yeah, but you could have. You could have been raised as a weekly attending Mormon, and you're still pretty much almost as likely to leave. In other words, active, regular church attendance isn't the protective force that I think the church leaders would want it to be.

Meggan Hayes [02:32:58] Yes, I think that's what that graph says really pretty plainly.

John Dehlin [02:33:02] Yeah, it helps, but it, you know, it's. It isn't really helpful for a majority.

Meggan Hayes [02:33:11] Well, and what else does that say? Because if you've gone to church your entire life and all of your friends are Mormon, your parents are Mormon, your whole family's Mormon, it's your entire worldview. It's your whole structure, your marriage is based on it, and then you see still leave, then it has to be because you really just can't stay anymore.

John Dehlin [02:33:32] Honestly, I'm surprised the numbers, the. The disinfection rates aren't higher. I've always just been stunned, you know, like my mom and dad still believe, my sister still believes. Like so many people in our extended family or people on the Internet, Mormons all over, who know the problems with the church's truth claims. They know about the LGBT suicides, they know about the racism. They know about the polygamy, and they still stay. The fact that the. The church hasn't been destroyed to this point has always been puzzling to me. Not because I want it to be destroyed, just because I think the. It's so obvious and the evidence is so conclusive that the church. Church's truth claims are false and that the church's lied and harmed people and has been racist, sexist and homophobic. Homophobic. The evidence and the harm is so overwhelming in the child abuse and all that. What it's a testament to is just how important the church's community is to those who are in it and how healthy the lifestyle can be for those who aren't harmed by it. And I would add how intense and severe the family pressures are and the family and social penalties are for those who leave. For me, those are the only explanations for why the church in effect, hasn't disappeared off the face of the earth.

Meggan Hayes [02:35:05] Yeah. Because even after all that, people stay. So there's got to be a reason. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:11] Because the truth claims. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So what? How are the apologists responding to all this? Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:35:24] So here, this is just the same clip, because this is Justin Dyer, the same article. He responded to both Jana Reese and to these other graphs by Ryan. And if you'll go to the next slide. So. Oh, whoops, one too far. Ryan claimed that Protestant retention by domination. Protestant is 71% in. The LDS is only 54%, which I think was probably a shocking thing to see for a lot of people. So Justin comes back to refute that by saying, well, within Protestantism, there's Baptist, there's Lutheran, there's Methodist, and there's Presbyterian. And if you put all those separately, they each have either the same as the Latter Day Saints or a lower retention rate. Because basically a lot of times what happens in Protestantism is that someone stops being a Baptist, but they become a Lutheran. So the Protestants get to retain that person in their retention stats because the umbrella of Protestantism is so big. And so Justin is saying that's where he gets his title, don't compare numbers that aren't. That aren't the same, because the LDS is just one group, whereas Baptists, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, they're all different, but they're all Protestant.

John Dehlin [02:36:40] So what do you think about that argument that if a Presbyterian becomes a Methodist or a Lutheran, that that should count against those particular churches versus the argument that those churches are kind of indistinguishable, so if people switch between them, it shouldn't count against them.

Why Would I Leave the Mormon Church?

Meggan Hayes [02:37:00] Well, it just made me think of what happens to Mormons when they leave. We just talked about this. They don't go to another church. They don't. And that. That is what this is highlighting. When people leave the Mormon Church, they likely are not going to become a Baptist, a Lutheran, or any other type of Mormon. You know, there are a lot of different offshoots of the Mormon Church. They don't become those either. They sometimes go to Community of Christ, but I think that's very rare. Yeah, so it is an interesting thing that he brings up.

John Dehlin [02:37:33] But, yeah, I think these days there's not a lot of difference between Presbyterians and Methodists and Lutherans and. And Baptists. And so, yeah, it's probably just like, oh, this church, the Lutheran church is closer than the Methodist church, or, oh, I've moved and now, you know, the church that I grew up with, or I married someone and they're Lutheran, but I was Methodist, and so we'll just go to the Lutheran one. It's a lot more of a trivial decision to switch Protestant churches than it is to leave Mormonism and Christianity altogether. So, yes, yes, there's more nuance than what the original chart showed. But I think his version of the story, Justin Dyer's version of the story doesn't tell the full picture either. It's somewhere in between Ryan's story and Justin's story is the real truth, I think.

Meggan Hayes [02:38:38] Yeah. And I think that happens quite often.

John Dehlin [02:38:41] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:38:42] But Justin wants to use, you know, he's. He's really kind of using the same argument to both. This happens everywhere.

John Dehlin [02:38:50] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:38:51] You know, if. If we separate these out, look, the Baptists and the Latter Day Saints are leaving both at 54%. So why are you guys highlighting us? We really don't have that big of a problem.

John Dehlin [02:39:00] Yeah, and I just think that's fiddling while Rome burns. You know what I mean? It's ignoring the real problem. It's deceiving the members and it's ignoring the problem. And it's the same as the Corbridge video, like Own your problems and deal with them instead of deflect and deny the problems and continue to not deal with them. Right. Isn't that the only ethical way to. To. To operate?

Meggan Hayes [02:39:29] Oh, well, yeah. Just to address what is actually being shown instead of, here's what they showed us, and we don't like it, so we're just going to focus. Focus on something over here.

John Dehlin [02:39:38] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:39:38] Like you said, these are not the droids you're looking for. This 71% of Protestants stay versus only 54% of LDS. This is not the real story.

Speaker E [02:39:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:50] All right, well, that's. That's great coverage. Thank you for that, Meggan. Let's go on to the Ken Jennings story. I think this is a pretty big one. So tell us who Ken Jennings is and why he made the news.

Ken Jennings on The New York Times Story

Meggan Hayes [02:40:03] So, ken Jennings, in 1994, he served an LDS mission in Madrid, Spain. In 2000, he graduated from Brigham Young University. And then in 2004, he won 74 consecutive Jeopardy. Games and $2.52 million. And then from 2021 to the present, he has been in different capacities, and now he is the official host of Jeopardy. And as far as I could tell, he is still considers himself an active attending member. I. He doesn't say a lot about it publicly as far as that goes, but from what I could tell, he's active still.

John Dehlin [02:40:40] Yeah. And I'm not sure if he still holds the record for the most consecutive wins on Jeopardy, but if he doesn't, it's close. He's a legend. He's brilliant. He's a genius. He's so likable. Everyone loves Ken Jennings. It just seems like, at least that's my impression. And the only other thing I'll say is that Ken Jennings has known about Mormon stories for sure for at least two decades. He's definitely not like the Donny Marie Osmond type who would be oblivious to everything happening on the Internet. Ken Jennings has been social media savvy from the very beginning. I knew that he knew about Mormon stories very early on. And my sense is, early on, I tried to get him to come on the podcast, and he didn't to want. Want to. And my sense was it was because he was a believer, or at least a nuanced believer and wanted to stay in. So it just seems like he's mostly stayed quiet about Mormonism for the past two decades. And I think that's smart for celebrities to do. They want to have the largest audiences possible and the most opportunities as possible. And as David Archuleta and Tyler Glenn and Dan Reynolds tell you, Mindy Gledhill, when you publicly come out against the church, it's likely your fan base is going to suffer and your opportunities are going to shrink. And so, you know, I just always assumed Ken Jennings is going the smarter route in terms of his career and whatever concerns or problems he has with Mormonism, he's just going to stay quiet about them for the sake of money and his career and maybe not hurting, you know, the loved ones around him who are his believers. So that's what I've just been assuming he's been doing and that he's just a regular old believing Mormon up until now. So what happened recently? Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:42:32] Well, it took me a while to track down the origin of the story, but if you go to the next slide, he put out on a blue sky. My wife and I have a game where we try to invent the day's grossest sounding word on the New York Times spelling bee. So I believe this is an app and it gives you a host of letters and they were making words that weren't real, words that just sounded like they would be something gross. And he was just having fun. That's what he put out there. Not. Doesn't. Doesn't seem controversial to me. I don't know. Okay, are you sensing big controversy there, John?

John Dehlin [02:43:09] Not yet. Not yet.

Meggan Hayes [02:43:11] So then the response, which is that middle thing, it was someone who said, I wish people who care about trans people could understand that playing New York Times games is still an insult to trans people.

John Dehlin [02:43:23] Okay, how is playing New York Times games an insult to trans people? I'm not getting that logic.

Meggan Hayes [02:43:29] I, I don't really understand it either. But there is a group of people, people who believe that if you support them, then you are supporting all of their reporting. And there could have been some things in there that could have not been 100 supportive of the trans community. So they're tying these games to a political ideology that doesn't support trans rights.

John Dehlin [02:43:55] Or you're against the New York Times. If you're progressive or liberal and you're against New York Times, I, I think our world is lost. Like, seriously, if liberals and progressives are going to attack the New York Times, we're. We're done for as a civilization. That's my opinion.

Meggan Hayes [02:44:15] Yes, I, Yeah, well, and I. So Ken, in his, in his most wonderful way of keeping, trying to keep things apolitical and responding to this, he said, this may be true of others, but I actually got express permission from the trans community to keep New York Times games and Recipes. I also have a news subscription which is arguably worse. So I had to specifically send in a written request. Took 30 days, but I got it approved. So he was trying to stay light hearted about this. Like I support the trans community and you know, lol. I'm just playing a game. And I got, I got it approved by the people who run the trans community, which in and of itself is a joke because the trans community is not one person or one entity. It's a lot of people with a lot of differing views. Right. So he's trying to keep it light.

John Dehlin [02:45:12] Yeah. And our comments are blowing up because people are saying I hate the New York Times or the New York Times is a Zionist trade rag or you know, the New York Times is liberal wokeness. Let me just be clear. I'm just saying that like conservative, you know, people have their conservative media outlets. Liberal people have their liberal media outlets. Clearly the New York Times is leans more liberal than it does conservative. But I'm just saying that if liberals want the New York Times destroyed, like I want to know what news source they've got left that's having any impact in the world today. That's my only point anyway. Okay, so how does Ken Jennings respond to this? Or what? How do people respond to Ken Jennings?

Meggan Hayes [02:46:04] Right, so after he said that, then some conservative folks, which I could not actually find any evidence of, of news articles or anything that said this, but he alludes to the fact that some conservative folks were like, yay, Ken Jennings is on our side. Right. So in the interim between him making that light hearted response, people were thinking

John Dehlin [02:46:23] that Ken Jennings was transphobic or anti trans.

Meggan Hayes [02:46:26] Yes, yes. Because of that one comment.

John Dehlin [02:46:29] Ken Jennings didn't like people thinking that he was anti trans or transphobic. Correct.

Meggan Hayes [02:46:34] Yeah, he didn't like that. And that's what his next response is going to be. But I just was trying to say I couldn't find any of those actual comments. But he said, I go ahead.

John Dehlin [02:46:46] He clarifies.

Meggan Hayes [02:46:47] I was just gonna say yes. I saw yesterday that some right wing outlets were running stories about me, which I'm used to, but this time I'm going to say something about it because these were framed to imply that I was aligned with their own transphobia. For the record. Nope. Honestly, I don't think there's an issue today I care about on a, a personal level more deeply than trans rights. And it's rough out there right now. Bigots on one side of the political aisle and too many cowards on the other. Anyone who knows me, even A little, or has even followed me long on social media, already knows this about me. Our institutions are literally trying to erase trans people right now, and it pisses me off. A snarky reply to one bad take on Blue sky doesn't mean that's changed at all. My TV job is apolitical, but I'm proud that one of the things we make is a space that's trans and non binary friendly. And that's not going to change either. So that's the thing to know. If you're a tabloid that's going to namecheck me in another round of transphobic about Blue sky discourse, I don't stand with you. I stand with my trans friends and family members.

Blue Sky on Trans Issues

John Dehlin [02:47:52] Holy moly. Like, can I just give Jennings a round of applause? Like, that's a lot of courage, right? Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:48:04] Yes.

Ken Jennings on Transgender Issues

John Dehlin [02:48:06] Can I just share a couple thoughts?

Meggan Hayes [02:48:08] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:48:09] So, first is, I understand that this issue. We've covered transgender issues on Mormon stories before, and I just want to, you know, I know I have a lot of listeners who are. Do not, who are fearful of transgender, you know, things. They are worried that, you know, their children are going to have surgery or their children are going to be taking, you know, hormone blockers or that, you know, somehow that their children are going to get recruited into transgenderism and. Or they're worried that their daughters are going to have to wrestle or play basketball or swim against, you know, people born as men but who trans. You know, I just want to say concerns about surgery on children are legitimate. Concerns about medications taken by children are legitimate. Concerns about the safety of athletes and the fairness of athletes as it relates to who gets to compete against who. All that's legitimate. I am not an extremist to say that people who don't understand or have confusion around the. The ways that that transgender stuff can impact society or children or sports or whatever. Like, reasonable people can disagree or have reasonable concerns. Right. That's something that I can have space for. And I want people who listen to this podcast to feel like, you know, that. That we understand that these things are difficult. What I don't love is when vulnerable, marginalized populations get made fun of or ridiculed or are. Or are demeaned or harmed. And I want to say that just like there's medical evidence that buttress the viability of gay and lesbian and bisexual people, that it's not a, quote, choice. It's not something that can be cured. It's something biological that happens to people. I believe that my understanding of people that are transgender it's very similar. It's not a choice. It's not an indoctrination, for the most part. It's something biological in the brain that happens to people. And because of the way that they're treated in society, oftentimes they become marginalized and imperiled and an at risk population. And that. And so when we talk about them, we should talk about them with evidence and with compassion and love and support, not make fun of them, not try to erase them, not try to mock them and not demean them, right?

Meggan Hayes [02:51:21] Yes. Because if we want to have conversations that actually forward what we know about trans people and trans image issues, then we need to stop sensationalizing it all. We need to have conversations about what is actually happening, the real lived experiences, the real science. And when we push it too far either direction, it keeps us from that space in the middle where we're having conversations about reality.

John Dehlin [02:51:51] And so I hope our viewers and listeners, no matter where you are on transgender issues, I hope you see that we try to take a reasonable, common sense, moderate approach, that everyone's welcome here as long as they're not bigoted and mocking people on either side. And in that context, I want to congratulate Ken Jennings because it takes courage to come out on something like this, especially when you're a celebrity and especially when you've got ratings to think about in your job and an audience. I just think that this group is highly at risk for depression and anxiety and suicide. They're demeaned and mocked in public. These are transgender people, and I think that's wrong and that's bad. And I applaud Ken Jennings for coming out against transphobia and bigotry and hatred and for doing so as a celebrity with risks and for doing it as a Mormon, which also has risks. So what are your thoughts, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [02:52:57] Yes, I absolutely agree. He. He knew who was going. Who was listening, who was watching, who was going to see that. He knows who in his family is still a believing member. He certainly understands that people who watch his show fall on both sides of the spectrum. And what he said was, I will not sit back and let people believe that I think transgender people should be further marginalized.

John Dehlin [02:53:25] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:53:25] I won't sit back and just let people assume that about me, because he could have just said nothing.

John Dehlin [02:53:30] Yeah. And one of the things I hate most is that this issue has been politicized, that somehow people are choosing one political party or another based on hating trans people or discriminating against trans people or. Or, you know, being affirming. I, I don't think human rights should be political issues. I think basic human rights should be just, you know, prevalent and pervasive. And then we talk about policy, but not human rights. That's.

Meggan Hayes [02:54:05] Yeah, because if a certain political party gets in and we can no longer look at the science and the lived experience, that's a problem. It shouldn't. The. Our ability to look at reality should not be contingent upon a certain political party being in power. We should be able to do that anyways and have the measured conversations.

John Dehlin [02:54:25] So these are my questions that come about from this story. Number one is. Well, I, I have three questions. How active and believing as a Mormon does Ken Jennings remain? And it's kind of no one's business, but I think it's an interesting and a fair question to ask. Because if Ken Jennings remains a believing Mormon, how does he square that with the fact that there is probably no more transphobic church in the United States than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? They've become more transphobic in the past five years, more bigoted and anti trans in its church policies in the past five years than it was five years ago. So has Ken Jennings left the Mormon Church? Is he mad at the Mormon Church? Does he not know the Mormon Church's trans policies? Or is he being blind to it? Like, I'm dying to know how his trans advocacy affects his belief in the church and why. Why isn't he calling out the church if he's so trans affirming and if he knows how transphobic and anti trans the Mormon Church is? Did you wonder that too, Meggan?

Ken Jennings on His Trans Advocacy

Meggan Hayes [02:55:46] Yeah, because the church came out with that policy just very recently. Where. Now, if you're a transgender person person and you go to church and you need to use the restroom, someone has to go in first and make sure nobody's in there. And then you have to go in alone while someone stands outside the door to monitor to make sure you don't share a restroom with somebody. He has to know about that. This. He does not strike me as someone who is not abreast of the issues.

John Dehlin [02:56:13] Yeah, that's his.

Meggan Hayes [02:56:14] His whole job is just knowing what's going on in the world. That's how he got to where he is. Because he knows the issues. He knows the trivia of the issues. So, yeah, I wonder in his mind, what is happening. Does he want to call the church out? Does he think it's too dangerous? Does he still believe? Does. Is he getting a pass from the church because of his celebrity? Yeah. What is the dynamic, you know, is

John Dehlin [02:56:40] he giving the church a pass as well? Yeah. And so that would be. I don't want to take away from his courage in this instance, and I want to just give him all the kudos and the respect and admiration for sticking his neck out like this and being such a vocal advocate. But I do want to ask him. You. You say courage, Ken Jennings, you know that you're associated with the Mormon Church. You know the church is anti trans. There's just no way around that. So why is your courage stopping short of you'll denounce anti trans people broadly, but why are you staying silent on the church that you're allegedly a member of, allegedly a believer of, and a church that you're clearly associated with? And again, I say that with all the love and respect. And his silence on Mormonism doesn't take away of my respect on his courage for being more vocal more broadly. But I am curious, and I do think logical consistency could argue or warrant a clarification on his position as it relates to the Mormon Church and transgender stuff.

Meggan Hayes [02:57:58] Yeah. Because if he was a professor at BYU instead of the host of Jeopardy.

John Dehlin [02:58:02] It wasn't. Oh, a professor.

Meggan Hayes [02:58:03] No, no.

John Dehlin [02:58:04] If.

John Dehlin [02:58:04] If he.

Meggan Hayes [02:58:05] If he right now was a professor at BYU instead of the host of Jeopardy.

John Dehlin [02:58:08] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:58:09] And he had said this same thing publicly.

John Dehlin [02:58:11] Yeah.

Meggan Hayes [02:58:12] He'd be gone.

John Dehlin [02:58:13] He'd be fired. Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's a great point.

Meggan Hayes [02:58:18] Yeah. Clark Gilbert would have just had him out of there.

John Dehlin [02:58:21] So I hope Julie will make a short that shows respect to Ken Jennings on our part, but also poses this respectful question to Ken Jennings. And then I hope maybe he clarifies, but if he doesn't, I will still respect him.

Meggan Hayes [02:58:38] Yep, same.

John Dehlin [02:58:42] All right, well, thanks for covering that, Meggan. We have one more story to go, so let's just get to it.

The Mormon Icon Behind WordPerfect: Bruce Bastian's Fight for

Meggan Hayes [02:58:47] Yeah. This is just like a human interest type story. So before Silicone slopes, there was WordPerfect new show details company that changed Utah. And this is a very Mormon angle. So before Silicone Slopes became a household name, there was a Word Perfect. Founded in 1979 by BYU graduates Alan Ashton, the grandson of former church President David O. McKay, and Bruce Bastian. The company grew into the world's leading word processor, capturing about 70% of the global market and helping transform Utah into a major technology technology hub. The two founders took very different paths later in life. Bruce. Bruce Bastian left the church, became a prominent LGBTQ advocate and philanthropist, and was interviewed by John De Lynn on Mormon Stories before his death in 2024. Alan Ashton remained active in the church, serving as a bishop, stake president, mission president in Canada, and later president of the Provo Utah Temple. A new documentary tells the story of what Word Perfect's rise, its rivalry with Microsoft and its lasting impact on Utah's economy. So these. These slides I put in just so if people before they watch this documentary, wanted some background on Bruce Bastian. He has been on Mormon stories here or he was on episode in 2010 on episode number 170, 171 and 172 1, which are growing Up Mormon and the Word Perfect years coming out as a gay Mormon father and the case for supporting gay rights, which I have listened to, but I would not mind a re. Listen.

John Dehlin [03:00:24] Absolutely.

Meggan Hayes [03:00:25] Yeah. And then in 2020, 10 years later, he was interviewed again. Episodes 1375, Bruce Bastian's fight for equality, and episode 1376, Bruce Bastian and Clint Ford, An Unexpected Love Story.

John Dehlin [03:00:40] Yeah, and I'll just say a couple things. I worked for WordPerfect in 1993 as a senior at BYU. I actually worked for them. They eventually got bought out by Novell and Microsoft ended up dominating the word processing market. And WordPerfect kind of disappeared. But there was a time where the world could have been very different if WordPerfect and, you know, other. Other companies could have beat Microsoft. But Microsoft was won. Won that battle. But they were a huge deal worldwide and that's really fun. Also, Bruce Bastian, it was just an honor to be able to interview him so early. He was one of the first videos that I ever did. He lived in this huge mansion in Provo, Orem. It almost was like the bat, the Bruce Wayne manor, you know, mansion. And he went on to help lead not just Equality Utah, but also what's the LGBT advocacy organization that was nationwide that has the symbol of the equal sign.

Meggan Hayes [03:01:59] Oh, the Human Rights Campaign or.

John Dehlin [03:02:01] Yeah, the Human Rights Campaign. So he was a huge advocate in the Human Rights Campaign. He was hugely influential in fighting Proposition 8 when it happened. And he's been a donor and a supporter for many, many years. And he did pass away recently, which was kind of sad. But he's just a legend. And it was really fun because Gerardo and I, Gerardo Sumano early, when Gerardo was working with me, he went with me to re. Interview Bruce later, you know, a decade or more after I had interviewed him the first time. So Bruce was a real friend and fan of Mormon Stories podcast before he passed away. So anyway, it's. It's fun to see that this documentary is going to be made.

Meggan Hayes [03:02:47] Right. Yeah. So the documentary is actually finished. They just have. They've put it at a few film festivals. Yeah. And they're. Yeah. And they're just trying to find. Find where they're going to release it next. What is their next. Yeah. Audience going to be?

The Word Perfect Story: A Documentary

John Dehlin [03:02:59] Okay. All right. And so that's what this next slide is.

Meggan Hayes [03:03:03] Yeah. So this is the Featherstones. Scott and Jake, who are also Latter Day Saints, are currently seeking distribution and festival opportunities, hoping to bring the Word Perfect Story to a wider audience. So far, the film has already generated interest on the festival circuit, earning selections from the New York Film Awards Awards, the New York International Film Festival, and the Branson Film Festival. We know there is interest in the Word Perfect stories. Scott Featherstone said.

John Dehlin [03:03:28] Yeah, well, I'll be interested to see if. If the. How these two faithful Mormons portray Bruce and the LGBT issues. Because, you know, I know the Ashtons, by the way, Alan Ashton ended up founding Thanksgiving Point. So if any of you have gone to Thanksgiving Point Point and enjoy that. That whole golf course, movie theater, you know, dinosaur museum, flower gardens, all that is what Allan. One of the many things Alan Ashton did with all the money he got from Word Perfect. So I'll be curious to see what these faithful Mormons, the Featherstones, do with the Word Perfect story and how they treat Bruce Bash in the LGBT story. But I can't wait to watch it. So thanks for making us aware of it.

Meggan Hayes [03:04:15] Yeah, yeah, I just thought I'd bring it up because I knew you would have some. A little bit of insight having done those interviews, and I wanted to see what you would say.

John Dehlin [03:04:23] Yeah, no, I'm thrilled and I'm excited and I can't wait. And I wish Bruce Bastian were still with us, is what I think. Yeah, he's been a really important philanthropic figure in Utah, and he was a great support reporter for Mormon Stories until he died.

Meggan Hayes [03:04:40] Yeah, well. And what I could see in the articles that talked about the documentary, there was a point where they could have sold Word Perfect for a lot more than they did, but they decided not to because keeping it in Utah saved people's jobs. So, yeah, there's an angle of that story where they did the thing that was the human thing to do to. To help people to show the love and support for their community when they could have just wanted money. So I. I want to see it, too. I used Word Perfect in my seventh grade typing class, and I was very good at all the hotkeys for it. And so it'll be really Interesting to see the background that I had no idea of when I was a little Mormon in Freedom City, Utah.

John Dehlin [03:05:23] Yeah. Well, let's share some of the final comments just for fun, because we love our live audience and we love their feedback and we love doing live streams. So here's some of them. Sam Anderson writes, hell yeah, John, love it when you're passionate. It gives me a burning in my bosom. So I'm glad you like that, Sam. Aaron Stewart writes, john, I just want to let you know how much I enjoyed your narration. No man doesn't. History. Oops, I think I already read that one. That was not intentional. Ex Mormon Snark writes, why are they fleeing the church? Or why are women fleeing the church? It's because they're second class citizens. I think that's objectively true. Trevenant, our wonderful moderator from the Netherlands wrote, Haley Walzer said it very well. Mormonism is the only place where she felt less than in the church. I don't know exactly what he means by that. Where she felt less.

No Man Knows My History: Final Comments

Meggan Hayes [03:06:25] Yeah. Only place where she felt less was in church.

John Dehlin [03:06:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:06:28] Okay. So yeah, so Haley Walzer is a great episode, a great interview. She basically said it was only in the Mormon church where she felt less than. Is that right?

Meggan Hayes [03:06:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:40] Okay. Ex Mormon Snark also writes, I was told I should get a degree so I could be a smart mommy. I hated that. I was told basically that my education was worthless. Ryan Scott, PNW writes, megan, one of the things I love about my kids and their generation is that they look at the world and say no if things don't work for them or don't make sense. That's a great piece of feedback from Ryan Scott. Dan Vogel writes, wow, that's cool, John. He means that I narrated Von Brody's book and then he says, now do my book. Dan Vogel, if Signature Books wants me to narrate your book, I'll do it. So please have them reach out and let me know if that's official. But I would. I think your books need to be made into audiobooks. Dan Bogle and I would love to help make that happen as well. They just need to reach out because I can't do that without permission. Manuel Villalobo, 682 writes, I need to get this audiobook. I hope John does caffeinated John voice In some parts and I do when I'm. That's one of the things I love most about my narration of no Man Knows My History is that I'm. I have to narrate Joseph Smith and many of his wild and crazy prophecies and revelations and condemnations. And so I bring caffeinated John to many of my narrations of Joseph Smith. And I I have to think the Mormon Church loves that I am the voice of Joseph Smith in in that book.

Meggan Hayes [03:08:16] Yeah, they is love the right word. Oh, I can't wait to listen to it.

John Dehlin [03:08:24] Spencer Black writes Echo Point Books and Media, independent bookseller in Brattleboro, Vermont is the they are the publishers of the audiobook. So shout out to them again. Soon I'm going to be announcing a book club Mormon Stories podcast series and project where I can get you the audiobook of no Man Knows My History for cheap. And we're going to be doing something really fun with it. So look out for an announcement on that soon. We have from Debbie Painter 8055. Thank you both Mormon Stories helped me work through my hurt and anger when I left the church in my early 50s. And then Dan writes signature books use word perfect. So did I. So did I. And so did you, Meggan.

Meggan Hayes [03:09:14] I loved it. I preferred it over the other ones. I thought it was more user friendly.

John Dehlin [03:09:17] Yeah, it was great. Okay, so Meggan, what are your final words? And please make sure to plug your own project while we're at it.

Mormon Stories: A Super Chat

Meggan Hayes [03:09:26] Yeah, I love digging into the news. I love looking at someone and getting all this background. And that's why Monday through Friday, five days a week, if not more, on my channel, generally unquotable on YouTube, Spotify, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, I do 15 to 20 minute news segments to just keep everyone updated on what's going on. And I sprinkle in little bits of the wisdom that I have learned over the the years about Here's a new story and this is how I perceive it now or this is how I would have perceived it as a Mormon. And this is how I look at it now. So it's equal parts. Here are the current events and if you're deconstructing, you're not alone.

John Dehlin [03:10:08] Absolutely. So please subscribe and like to Mormon Stories podcast on all the channels. And while you're at it, go subscribe and like generally and quote unquote as well. And if people want to support if people want to support this show, they can go to mormonstories.org donate and become a monthly donor to this show that helps pay for Meggan and Julia and Brooklyn and me and the work that we do. So please financially support this show. And then also people can support you financially as well, right, Meggan?

Meggan Hayes [03:10:41] Yes, just by Watching, liking and subscribing. Subscribing. And then I also do have a Patreon channel if they want to throw a few bucks in there. I really appreciate that. And then they will get the news just a little bit earlier than everybody else.

John Dehlin [03:10:53] And in the spirit of that, Diana Fazar 5,986 sent us a super chat and just said sending some love. So thank you, Diana, for the super chat. All right, so we did it in 3 hours and 11 minutes. I don't know, is that good or bad?

Mormon Stories Live: A Short

Meggan Hayes [03:11:11] I think it's perfect.

John Dehlin [03:11:12] Okay.

Meggan Hayes [03:11:12] We did just what we intended to do.

John Dehlin [03:11:15] And I did work on being more succinct, but I'll keep working on that and try and be more and more succinct. And I'm happy to have Nemo back whenever it makes sense. But I also have been missing working with you, Meggan, so I hope you're not disappointed when I. I'm your co host.

Meggan Hayes [03:11:29] No, absolutely not. I love having a variety because as we know, everyone who leaves the church does not need the same. Same thing. Yeah, right. We all need something different. And half the people here were never Mormon or maybe they're still partially attending. It's good to have a variety.

John Dehlin [03:11:46] So we need variety, but not less. Meggan, is that okay?

Meggan Hayes [03:11:49] That's just fine. Hey, there were a few weeks when other people stepped in. Julie, I saw Julia.

John Dehlin [03:11:53] Julia does a great job. Absolutely. Great point. All right, well, thanks, Meggan. Thanks for joining us and thanks for all you do. We really appreciate it.

Meggan Hayes [03:12:03] Thanks, Sean. Thanks, everyone in the live chat. This was amazing.

John Dehlin [03:12:06] All right. Yeah. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks, everyone. In the live chat, Please go to mormonstories.org donate to become a monthly donor to keep the series alive. Please like and subscribe. If you want to support our legal fund, you can go to mormonstories.org legal we are trying to defend ourselves against an organization worth over $300 billion with an organization with two employees and a budget that's small, far smaller. So if you want to support our efforts to stay alive in face of the church's extremely expensive and bankrupting lawsuit, you can do that@mormonstories.org legal we love your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com and if you want to apply to Beyond Mormon Stories podcast, you got to go to MormonStories.org apply to apply to be on the show. And yeah, and we love your comments. So please comment. We love the comments that came in the live stream. You can always comment after the live stream's over. We'll I read every comment, I'm sure, Meggan, you also try to read the comments as well. So please comment like and we'll continue the conversation there in in the chat. We also want to thank Julie and Brooklyn for all they do. Please be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast and on the Mormon News podcast. Thanks, Mormon. Thanks, Meggan. Thanks everybody. See you all again soon. Bye. Bye.